2013-01-14
| 00:05 | yedi | does prismatic use clojurescript? |
| 01:21 | scottj | yedi: I think it did at one time. I haven't heard that they switched. |
| 01:22 | tomoj | hmm https://www.refheap.com/paste/7e814e3265c6fd0c5e4bfed8a |
| 01:22 | tomoj | guess there are bugs for not-found |
| 01:24 | tomoj | is there already something that serves up html for a browser repl? |
| 01:25 | tomoj | I still have a static html file served by apache and a bit of cljs that looks at the url fragment for a repl port and clojure.browser.repl/connect's |
| 01:49 | frozenlock | Is there something like `bean', but that isn't read-only? |
| 01:52 | bbloom | frozenlock: what would that look like? transients? |
| 01:52 | bbloom | maybe you should write 'frozenlock/bean! because i like the idea of a function named "bean!" |
| 01:52 | bbloom | sounds exciting |
| 01:52 | technomancy | :dependencies [[mister/bean "1.0.0"]] |
| 01:53 | amalloy | frozenlock: if it's a mutable object with mutable fields, and not a clojure "value" (ie immutable), then it sounds like you just want...a java object |
| 01:53 | bbloom | technomancy: i can't tell if you're joking, or that's a project on github |
| 01:54 | bbloom | frozenlock: yeah, what amalloy said |
| 01:54 | amalloy | so, i'd say this function is identity |
| 01:54 | technomancy | bbloom: only in my dreams |
| 01:54 | technomancy | possibly clojure.reflect/reflect |
| 01:55 | frozenlock | amalloy: it is a java object. I would just like the ability to set the fields by a less tedious way than .setSomeFieldsMethod |
| 01:55 | frozenlock | (merge! (bean java-object) {:some-field value}) would be magic :) |
| 01:56 | p_l | well, for java beans, making a macro would be easy |
| 01:59 | amalloy | careful. if you make it a macro, that would work, but (let [field :some-field] (merge! ... {field value})) wouldn't |
| 01:59 | tomoj | will closure optimize out keyword strings? |
| 01:59 | tomoj | in a simple test, it seems not.. |
| 02:02 | p_l | amalloy: dunno about how Clojure does with macros (I'm mainly lurking here, the chances to use clojure tend to die fast), but it's definitely doable in CL |
| 02:02 | brainproxy | bbloom: been enjoying the silver searcher (and emacs integration for it) all day, thanks again for the tip last night!! |
| 02:03 | tomoj | https://www.refheap.com/paste/a3345210b33f944c2b606fe0c |
| 02:03 | tomoj | heh |
| 02:04 | tomoj | https://www.refheap.com/paste/3f95ec12ac297e0dc6e1c0996 |
| 02:04 | amalloy | p_l: baloney. you can't use macros to make that work in cl either, because merge! can't make compile-time use of the runtime value :some-field of the field binding |
| 02:04 | bbloom | brainproxy: np. enjoy! |
| 02:04 | tomoj | whoa |
| 02:04 | tomoj | holy crap |
| 02:04 | tomoj | wtf is that? |
| 02:04 | p_l | amalloy: oh, you can - by checking whether you have literal or variable, and generating apropriate code that would dispatch later |
| 02:05 | tomoj | I guess closure said, "hey look, a bunch of strings, I'll combine them to save on quotation marks" |
| 02:05 | tomoj | (that's the advance compiled output of (def frob [:frob :frob :frob :frob ...]) |
| 02:05 | p_l | amalloy: might require a compiler macro for the literal optimization, though |
| 02:05 | bbloom | tomoj: heh. |
| 02:06 | bbloom | tomoj: probably also saves on the string intern table at runtime |
| 02:06 | amalloy | sure, if you're willing to have your macro behave like a function. but the presumption here was that the (.setFoo) operators were only possible at compile-time |
| 02:06 | tomoj | but in this case, there's obviously a better way :) |
| 02:06 | bbloom | tomoj: but seems like an overoptimization to me... sometimes i wonder about google closure |
| 02:07 | bbloom | tomoj: in my experience with "real" javascript apps, advanced compilation is practically useless when coupled with gzip. i guess it's only really useful when you have a *huge* stdlib that you want removed as dead code |
| 02:07 | p_l | bbloom: optimizing for JS is just like optimizing for computer, except the "cpu" is batshit insane ;) |
| 02:07 | bbloom | p_l: that resonates with me. |
| 02:08 | ibdknox | bbloom: the inlining and such is nice |
| 02:08 | bbloom | ibdknox: for sure. it was a *brilliant* move to build cljs on gclosure |
| 02:08 | p_l | I once heard some rumours of google V8 guys saying "we're getting to limits of how far you can compile and optimize JS while being useful" |
| 02:09 | bbloom | ibdknox: however, it would be nice to eventually get all those optimizations into the compiler itself so they can 1) use clojure-specific knowledge and 2) be shared between host platforms |
| 02:09 | bbloom | ibdknox: and 3) decouple from jvm |
| 02:11 | ibdknox | bbloom: I would *love* for that to happen :) |
| 02:11 | ibdknox | all of LT runs unoptimized |
| 02:11 | tomoj | would it make sense to 'intern' keywords in the cljs compiler? |
| 02:11 | bbloom | ibdknox: i guess it must in order to support eval |
| 02:11 | ibdknox | for a number of reasons |
| 02:11 | ibdknox | bbloom: yep |
| 02:12 | bbloom | ibdknox: part of the problem is that the symbol mapping for minification lives in the jvm. it isn't shared with the browser |
| 02:12 | ibdknox | bbloom: it's still wonderfully fast in v8 - such an amazing piece of technology |
| 02:13 | bbloom | ibdknox: the guy who did his cljs-in-cljs is talking about it at clojure/west. hopefully we can push that stuff forward. |
| 02:14 | ibdknox | bbloom: yeah, after seeing the list of talks, I'm regretting my decision not to go lol |
| 02:14 | ibdknox | looks like some really neat stuff |
| 02:14 | ibdknox | I've been following that work pretty closely |
| 02:15 | ibdknox | waiting for the moment I can start using it :) |
| 02:15 | bbloom | ibdknox: the closure compiler is ~90k lines of java... i've considered just for fun porting it one compiler pass at a time... i bet it would be significantly smaller in clj |
| 02:15 | bbloom | sadly, i have real work to do :-) |
| 02:15 | ibdknox | haha |
| 02:15 | ibdknox | I bet you don't need most of it, to be honest |
| 02:15 | bbloom | ibdknox: no you really don't |
| 02:16 | bbloom | and some of the stuff is just absurdly verbose |
| 02:16 | bbloom | there are 3000+ line files that could probably be replaced by 5+ line macros |
| 02:16 | bbloom | in fact, i bet they were written by vim macros :-) |
| 02:16 | ibdknox | lol |
| 02:19 | bbloom | ibdknox: to be fair, it's pretty damn well written java |
| 02:20 | ibdknox | as much as they get paid, I'd hope so ;) |
| 02:21 | bbloom | ibdknox: so when is the next big "wow" release/video? |
| 02:24 | ibdknox | bbloom: end of jan/beginning of feb :) |
| 02:24 | bbloom | ibdknox: i'll keep an eye out for it |
| 02:24 | ibdknox | looots of goodness coming |
| 02:25 | bbloom | ibdknox: recently read your article about component-entity-system. good stuff |
| 02:26 | ibdknox | I need to write the follow up lol |
| 02:26 | bbloom | my ui stuff has a similar system that is tuned for trees rather than a flat set of game entities |
| 02:28 | ibdknox | LT is just one big data structure, it's similarly flat though |
| 02:28 | bbloom | all in one giant atom? heh |
| 02:28 | bbloom | i have two atoms: model & view |
| 02:30 | ibdknox | bbloom: I had it in one giant atom, but there were too many listeners and any one change caused immense amount of freshness checking. It's not an atom of atoms |
| 02:31 | bbloom | ibdknox: so what is it now? |
| 02:31 | ibdknox | err it's *now* an atom of atoms |
| 02:32 | bbloom | ah |
| 02:32 | ibdknox | that seems to be plenty fast enough at this point |
| 02:32 | bbloom | what's the branch factor on that? ie how many atoms? |
| 02:32 | bbloom | and what determines if something gets an atom? |
| 02:32 | ibdknox | every "object" in LT is an atom |
| 02:32 | ibdknox | so it can be hundreds |
| 02:33 | bbloom | what is the granularity of an "object"? a window? a little floating bubble? a line of code? a character? |
| 02:33 | ibdknox | an editor is the rough granularity |
| 02:34 | ibdknox | each tab is an object, the bar of tabs are objects |
| 02:34 | bbloom | and editors are those little bubbles arranged on a "table"? |
| 02:34 | clj-newb-234 | is there a clojure builtin for checking if arg1 is a prefix of arg2, where arg1/arg2 are both lists |
| 02:35 | ibdknox | bbloom: I moved away from that "table" stuff a bit in the latest LTs, but yeah that's correct |
| 02:35 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: maybe somebody can do better than this: |
| 02:35 | bbloom | ,(every? (partial apply =) (map vector [1 2 3] [1 2])) |
| 02:35 | clojurebot | true |
| 02:36 | clj-newb-234 | bbloom: interesting use of every? |
| 02:36 | clj-newb-234 | I was thinking of something like (defn prefix [a b] (= (take (count a) b) a)) |
| 02:36 | ibdknox | (= arg1 (take (count arg1) arg2)) |
| 02:36 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: heh, that's probably better |
| 02:36 | bbloom | in fact, that's definitely better |
| 02:37 | bbloom | i don't recall smoking anything.... |
| 02:37 | clj-newb-234 | why is it better? is there some weird case iinvolving laziness hwere one is more efficient than the other ? |
| 02:37 | bbloom | *scratches head* |
| 02:37 | bbloom | oh no, what ibdknox is saying isn't right |
| 02:38 | clj-newb-234 | in fact, I think your approach is O(1) space, whereas mine is O(n) space |
| 02:38 | bbloom | you'd need to know which list is longer |
| 02:38 | ibdknox | ah true |
| 02:38 | clj-newb-234 | I need only check if the first is a prefix of the second |
| 02:38 | bbloom | i wasn't smoking anything, i just FORGOT why i decided to use map vector lol |
| 02:38 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: ah, in that case, go with ibdknox's |
| 02:39 | bbloom | hmmm but let me think about the space... |
| 02:39 | bbloom | i don't think that it will hold on to the heads of the sequences, so it shouldn't take more space |
| 02:39 | amalloy | bbloom: nonsense |
| 02:39 | amalloy | it has to count one of them |
| 02:40 | amalloy | oh, i think i may not have understood the context |
| 02:40 | bbloom | amalloy: i was just answering a different question that i apparently made up myself |
| 02:40 | bbloom | amalloy: mine figures out if either seq is a prefix of the other |
| 02:40 | bbloom | which is different than testing if A is a prefix of B |
| 02:40 | bbloom | in summary: programming is hard |
| 02:41 | ibdknox | I'm fairly certain mine is probably smaller |
| 02:41 | ibdknox | space-wise |
| 02:41 | amalloy | useful has a prefix-of?, which is built on top of remove-prefix |
| 02:41 | clj-newb-234 | is "take" lazy ? |
| 02:41 | amalloy | https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/flatland/useful/seq.clj#L244 |
| 02:42 | bbloom | ibdknox: programming still hard: your approach would allocate less total memory, but both approaches use the same amount of space in terms of big-O |
| 02:42 | clj-newb-234 | what is "useful" a library or a irc user? |
| 02:42 | Raynes | It's a library IRC user. |
| 02:42 | bbloom | ibdknox: that is, unless, = isn't smart and holds on to the prefix of the list... which it very well might do since equiv is a memberfunction |
| 02:42 | ibdknox | bbloom: yeah |
| 02:43 | devn | clj-newb-234: take is lazy |
| 02:43 | bbloom | ibdknox: so the answer really depends on whether or not the JVM is smart enough to let the garbage collector clean up the `this` object that equiv was called on |
| 02:43 | devn | ,(class (take 4 (range 10))) |
| 02:43 | clojurebot | clojure.lang.LazySeq |
| 02:43 | ibdknox | well if you're doing this over something huge where any of this would matter, there's a better solution |
| 02:43 | bbloom | right, programming is hard, that's what i said :-) |
| 02:43 | clj-newb-234 | nah, these lists come from string.splitting "/" of pathnames |
| 02:43 | ibdknox | bbloom: hehe |
| 02:44 | clj-newb-234 | list lenghts are expected to be < 10 |
| 02:44 | ibdknox | why not just check the string prefixes? |
| 02:44 | bbloom | hm wow, that thought had never occurred to me before: object oriented programming inhibits garbage collection |
| 02:44 | clj-newb-234 | the gui code for the tree structure stores each level separately |
| 02:45 | clj-newb-234 | (i.e. think those little + signs you click, and the next level of the tree expands out) |
| 02:45 | bbloom | i guess anything that makes extra references inhibits garbage collection... and `this` is the biggest implicit bag of extra references ever |
| 02:45 | ibdknox | anything that hides state does |
| 02:46 | devn | like atoms? |
| 02:46 | clj-newb-234 | dumb question: is there a way to make #({ ... }) to somehow work? instead of having to write (fn [x] { ... } ) ? |
| 02:46 | clj-newb-234 | i.e. I want an anonymous function that returns map |
| 02:46 | clj-newb-234 | but I can't use #({ ... }) since that evals the map |
| 02:46 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: use -> |
| 02:46 | bbloom | ,(-> #{1 2 3} |
| 02:46 | bbloom | ,(-> #{1 2 3}) |
| 02:46 | clojurebot | #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading> |
| 02:46 | clojurebot | #{1 2 3} |
| 02:46 | clj-newb-234 | wtf, isn't -> for threading |
| 02:46 | ibdknox | lol |
| 02:46 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: yeah, but with only 1 argument, it has nothing to thread! :-) |
| 02:46 | ibdknox | it's a golfing trick |
| 02:47 | clj-newb-234 | (#(-> {1 2 3})) |
| 02:47 | clj-newb-234 | ,(#(-> {1 2 3})) |
| 02:47 | clojurebot | #<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Map literal must contain an even number of forms> |
| 02:47 | clj-newb-234 | ,(#(-> {1 2 3 5})) |
| 02:47 | clojurebot | {1 2, 3 5} |
| 02:47 | bbloom | ,(map #(-> [:foo %]) (range 3)) |
| 02:47 | clojurebot | ([:foo 0] [:foo 1] [:foo 2]) |
| 02:47 | clj-newb-234 | this is disguisting, but I like it |
| 02:47 | amalloy | don't use -> for that, even if trying to golf |
| 02:47 | devn | lol |
| 02:47 | amalloy | just use 'do, which is what it's for |
| 02:47 | clj-newb-234 | amalloy: why not? it's cute |
| 02:47 | devn | disgusting is right |
| 02:47 | amalloy | because it's cute is exactly why :P |
| 02:48 | devn | (inc amalloy) |
| 02:48 | lazybot | ⇒ 40 |
| 02:48 | clj-newb-234 | well, I like it; and I hate future-self, so I'm going ot use it :-) |
| 02:48 | ibdknox | ,(map #(do [:foo %]) [1 2 3 4]) |
| 02:48 | amalloy | if it makes you go "lol i can't believe this works", don't write it |
| 02:48 | clojurebot | ([:foo 1] [:foo 2] [:foo 3] [:foo 4]) |
| 02:48 | devn | clj-newb-234: go forth and shoot thineself in thine foot |
| 02:48 | bbloom | amalloy: i actually like it because its nice to add trace statements.... just insert a dbg before or after |
| 02:48 | bbloom | #(-> %) becomes #(-> dbg % dbg) |
| 02:49 | clj-newb-234 | bbloom: I like. |
| 02:49 | devn | (#(-> {1 2 3 4})) |
| 02:49 | devn | ,(#(-> {1 2 3 4})) |
| 02:49 | clj-newb-234 | #clojure <-- where you ask silly questions and get insightful answers. |
| 02:49 | clojurebot | {1 2, 3 4} |
| 02:50 | devn | i just killed chat |
| 02:50 | devn | good night all! |
| 02:50 | clj-newb-234 | I'm goign to spend the rest of the night thinking of all the evil uses of -> I can think of. |
| 02:51 | bbloom | but i'm a trace statement mad man. |
| 02:53 | clj-newb-234 | for some weird reason; I find replacing "map" with "for" tends to make my code more readable |
| 02:53 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: i find that's only true when you have multiple levels of maps and mapcats |
| 02:54 | clj-newb-234 | bbloom: actually, it's I tend to write (map (giant complicated expression) lst) |
| 02:54 | clj-newb-234 | and (for [x lst] multi-line-expr) looks much better |
| 02:54 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: so the primary difference between 'for and (->> map mapcat ... |
| 02:54 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: is that 'for requires you have names |
| 02:55 | clj-newb-234 | I like names too. |
| 02:55 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: where as map, filter, mapcat, etc would allow you to use functions without naming their arguments |
| 02:55 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: yeah, a lot of the time a name can make the code more clear |
| 02:55 | bbloom | but sometimes the name would just be silly like you have numbers, then numbers-without-fives, followed by numbers-without-fives-times-two |
| 02:55 | bbloom | so you either use short names like n |
| 02:56 | bbloom | or you write numbers* or numbers' |
| 02:56 | bbloom | or numbers'' |
| 02:56 | bbloom | or numbers'''''''''' |
| 02:56 | bbloom | alternatively, you can just avoid naming things that are intermediate values that wouldn't be beneficial to name |
| 02:56 | clj-newb-234 | damn, I just realized that (-> x a b c d e f) looks infinitely better than (f (e (d (c (b (a x)))))) |
| 02:56 | ro_st | or keep using the same name |
| 02:56 | clj-newb-234 | even with colored parehntheises |
| 02:57 | ro_st | let [a … a … a …] |
| 02:57 | bbloom | ro_st: yeah, i hate that |
| 02:57 | ro_st | i use it when it's clear that it'd otherwise be as you described |
| 02:58 | epitron | clj-newb-234: what about x.a.b.c.d.e.f :) |
| 03:02 | clj-newb-234 | epitron: a, b, c, d, e, f are functions, not java members :-) |
| 03:03 | epitron | clj-newb-234: sure.. i'm just sayin... OOP style is nicer |
| 03:03 | clj-newb-234 | nah, I like forth style |
| 03:03 | clj-newb-234 | -> reminds me of forth like things |
| 03:03 | epitron | load up that stack! |
| 03:04 | clj-newb-234 | if someone merely ficgured out he perfect way to merge clojure, mathematica, apl, and forth, I'd be happy |
| 03:06 | snowylike | why would you want APL? |
| 03:06 | clj-newb-234 | actually, I forgot one: I want: clojure + mathematica + apl + forth + perl |
| 03:07 | clj-newb-234 | with such a system, I bet one can solve the halting problem in < 100 LOC |
| 03:08 | bbloom | clj-newb-234: you'd love https://github.com/brandonbloom/factjor |
| 03:09 | clj-newb-234 | I like. |
| 03:09 | ro_st | bbloom: your talk got a '4' vote from me :-) |
| 03:09 | bbloom | ro_st: nice. thanks :-) |
| 03:09 | bbloom | ro_st: i'm going to try to release DomScript ahead of clojure/west |
| 03:10 | clj-newb-234 | bbloom: is it just one core? src/factjor/core.clj ? |
| 03:10 | clj-newb-234 | i like how that you've implemented the basic factor words |
| 03:10 | clj-newb-234 | the only thing you'r emissing is hte factor ui :-) |
| 03:12 | clj-newb-234 | I think the name can be better |
| 03:12 | clj-newb-234 | factjor doesn't seem as naturalc as fajctor |
| 03:13 | bbloom | i kinda regret not calling factjure |
| 03:13 | bbloom | because i keep spelling it that way |
| 03:13 | tomoj | I think you'd have to convince lein to let you? |
| 03:14 | Raynes | bbloom: I'd really prefer to not put js in your names. |
| 03:14 | Raynes | How would you feel if I started calling you Brajndon Bljoom? |
| 03:15 | bbloom | Raynes: heh, sorry. you got a better name? my goal was maximum confusion :-) |
| 03:16 | bbloom | Raynes: could have also gone wih Catjure |
| 03:16 | bbloom | or Clocat |
| 03:16 | clj-newb-234 | for maximal confusion, you should call it "go" |
| 03:16 | bbloom | Clotor ? |
| 03:16 | tomoj | clo* bothers me more than *jure |
| 03:16 | clj-newb-234 | I like clocat |
| 03:16 | bbloom | factjor was the best that had when i was ready to type `lein new` and i was to lazy to change it |
| 03:16 | bbloom | :-) |
| 03:17 | tomoj | I've been considering writing a shell script for attempting to rename a lein project |
| 03:18 | bbloom | tomoj: surely it should be `lein rename` |
| 03:18 | tomoj | ah, I suppose |
| 03:18 | bbloom | i'd install the shit out of that |
| 03:20 | Raynes | tomoj, bbloom: I wrote a program to do something similar in Haskell. |
| 03:20 | Raynes | tomoj, bbloom: Mine works for the specific case of adding a prefix to a namespace and setting up dirs and what not. |
| 03:20 | Raynes | https://github.com/Raynes/prefixify |
| 03:21 | Raynes | Bask in the purely functional glory |
| 03:22 | clj-newb-234 | isn't "lein rename" just "sed" ? |
| 03:22 | clj-newb-234 | like "sed/factjor/clocat/g" **/*.clj |
| 03:22 | tomoj | I used sed, but it doesn't rename files |
| 03:23 | bbloom | Raynes: yeah, tomoj's needs the package prefixing too |
| 03:27 | tomoj | are there extant demos of crate's bindings? |
| 03:28 | tomoj | https://github.com/fluentsoftware/cljs-binding/blob/master/examples/crate/src-cljs/sample.cljs I don't understand |
| 03:30 | bbloom | Raynes: your prefixify project is from ~2 months ago. do you still write a lot of haskell? |
| 03:53 | scottj | bbloom: just reading your clojure/west abstract, is domscript already released? |
| 03:53 | bbloom | scottj: not yet, i plan to release it ahead of clojure/west |
| 03:53 | bbloom | probably in the next two weeks, but no promises because i'm kinda busy moving from seattle to nyc |
| 03:53 | scottj | bbloom: have you posted any pastes of example usage? |
| 03:54 | bbloom | scottj: here's an example: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8519 |
| 03:54 | scottj | bbloom: thanks |
| 03:54 | bbloom | scottj: that might not actually be perfectly right since i never evaluated that particular bit of code |
| 03:55 | bbloom | in short, that little program creates some elements, clones one, attaches stuff to the dom, etc |
| 03:55 | bbloom | should give you the feel of it |
| 03:55 | bbloom | it feels a lot like jquery, only with much much more powerful chaining |
| 03:56 | echo-area | What package management change is leiningen waiting for? |
| 04:03 | tomoj | ";;" looks awfully like "::" :D |
| 04:12 | bbloom | scottj: looking for something in particular? |
| 04:15 | scottj | bbloom: nope, just curious. looking forward to seeing the release and your talk. |
| 04:15 | bbloom | thx :-) me too, i'm excited |
| 04:16 | Raynes | bbloom: I've never written a 'lot' of Haskell. |
| 04:16 | Raynes | bbloom: If you look, I wrote like 23435234 Haskell things in like 3 weeks there. |
| 04:16 | Raynes | bbloom: I wrote at least 3 libraries while at the conj alone, and that was before I had to take my mother to the hospital! |
| 04:17 | Raynes | I was actually making jokes with people about how I was writing Haskell at a Clojure confernece. |
| 04:17 | Raynes | conference* |
| 04:17 | bbloom | Raynes: ah ok. just flirting with it for the sake of learning? |
| 04:17 | Raynes | Sgeo: You're interested in anything that you can write programs in. |
| 04:17 | bbloom | Sgeo: what exactly do you do? are you a student/researcher? you seem to jump around between languages a lot :-P |
| 04:17 | Sgeo | It's like Racket and Smalltalk are on opposite ends of a spectrum. Racket's a nice language with an environment that irks me, Smalltalk's a nice environment with a language that irks me |
| 04:17 | Raynes | bbloom: Well, Haskell was my first language. Back then I just never internalized monads, applicative functors, ect. I used it some more mostly for those things, but also because I like Haskell. |
| 04:17 | Raynes | bbloom: I'd use it more, but I don't often have a reason to. |
| 04:17 | scottj | Sgeo: how come? (big fan of Smalltalk, used it quite a bit a decade ago) |
| 04:18 | Sgeo | bbloom, just graduated from a sucky school |
| 04:18 | bbloom | Raynes: heh. odd. how did that come to be your first language? |
| 04:18 | Raynes | bbloom: Prefixify was actually an excuse to use Haskell at work, but I semi-annoyed my boss because I spent time on it. :p |
| 04:18 | Sgeo | scottj, no macros is a big one. Single-dispatch OO. A tendency to add methods to other people's classes, and no namespacing mechanisms for these added methods |
| 04:18 | Raynes | bbloom: http://codebassradio.net/2011/11/29/runtime-expectations-episode-13-hot-clojure-conj/ Listen to my interview here. Pretty sure I explained it there. |
| 04:19 | Raynes | I had such sexy hair at that conference. |
| 04:19 | scottj | Sgeo: yeah definitely, my irc is lagging bad so my how come was actually to you being interested in it :) |
| 04:19 | Sgeo | Oh. The environment and IDE |
| 04:19 | Sgeo | A fix-and continue, modify while it runs, that sort of thing is really interesting to me |
| 04:19 | scottj | Sgeo: I like whisker browser, not sure if it loads in recent squeak |
| 04:21 | bbloom | Raynes: i'll listen to that in a little while if i remember |
| 04:21 | Raynes | Damn it. |
| 04:22 | Raynes | I lost my github commit streak. |
| 04:22 | Raynes | Didn't commit anything this weekend. |
| 04:22 | Raynes | Shame. |
| 04:22 | bbloom | Raynes: i think it works via pushes |
| 04:22 | bbloom | Raynes: so just rebase some commits and change the dates |
| 04:22 | scottj | Sgeo: mathmorphs and nebraska (kansas?) are really cool smalltalk things too |
| 04:22 | bbloom | game the system |
| 04:23 | scottj | Sgeo: blocky is a CL game programming environment that's partly inspired by morphic also, in case you didn't know |
| 04:28 | Sgeo | Hmm. But it's CL, which I also categorize as "good environment but not so nice language" |
| 04:46 | echo-area | Sgeo: Is Clojure in the same category? |
| 04:46 | echo-area | In your categorization |
| 04:47 | Sgeo | Actually, it leans much more towards better language, worse environment |
| 04:48 | Sgeo | Although there are some nice things about the environment. Can always grab a Java library |
| 04:48 | echo-area | Hmm. How do you define "better" and "worse"? I'm not flaming here, I just want to know your point |
| 04:48 | Sgeo | And it's popular enough to have a decent sized ecosystem |
| 04:48 | Sgeo | Well, there are certain things I tend to look for. Resumable exceptions, first-class continuations, TCO |
| 04:49 | Sgeo | Ease of modifying a running program |
| 04:49 | Sgeo | A nice IDE doesn't hurt, but Visual Studio for example feels too ... "large" to be considered nice |
| 04:49 | Sgeo | ^^all that I classify as "environment" |
| 04:50 | echo-area | Oh. Is TCO really possible on JVM? And what's missing in CL? |
| 04:51 | Sgeo | TCO is missing from CL, but my main problems with CL are language rather than environment |
| 04:51 | Sgeo | And TCO is possible, but might hurt Java interop |
| 04:51 | Sgeo | Any TCO code can be converted into code that doesn't use tail calls, I think |
| 04:51 | tomoj | it's too bad 'descendant' means 'proper descendant' — 'non-ancestors' for 'improper descendant'? :( |
| 04:52 | p_l | TCO is quite common in CL, though |
| 04:52 | p_l | and is possible in JVM for functions that call themselves (by replacing call with a branch) |
| 04:53 | Sgeo | TCO has uses beyond self-recursion |
| 04:57 | echo-area | What is a generated TCO? |
| 04:58 | Sgeo | ? |
| 04:59 | p_l | Sgeo: I *love* CL:DISASSEMBLE, btw :D |
| 05:00 | Sgeo | p_l, wouldn't the usefulness of that be highly dependent on the implementation? |
| 05:00 | p_l | Sgeo: so far it has been pretty useful to me - the only two cases with problems were ABCL and CCL |
| 05:00 | p_l | s/CCL/ECL/ |
| 05:01 | p_l | and it tends to show much better just what your optimization or changes do |
| 05:14 | clgv | where do I find the generated API for clojure's contrib lib? I think there was a github hosted site |
| 05:15 | clgv | ah ok found what I was looking for |
| 05:48 | augustl | I'm building a clojure system where there's one http server that serves as the back-end of a web app, and another clojure system that is a central API that the web app (and others) will talk to |
| 05:49 | augustl | my question is, should I use HTTP to talk to the central API, or are there any alternatives I should check out? |
| 05:49 | augustl | the central API is completely internal, so some sort of JVM only library is OK |
| 05:49 | cmdrdats | augustl: why not use queues? |
| 05:49 | augustl | as you might have guessed, I'm new to the JVM ;) |
| 05:50 | augustl | cmdrdats: good question :) |
| 05:50 | ejackson | augustl, cmdrdats: yeah, I was gonna suggest the same. Rabbit or whatever. |
| 05:50 | ro_st | (inc rabbitmq) |
| 05:50 | lazybot | ⇒ 1 |
| 05:51 | augustl | cmdrdats: since the front-end HTTP stuff is written with ring/compojure/etc, does it make sense to have an async call to put something on a request queue, and then immediately block for a response from a response queue? |
| 05:51 | augustl | anyone, not just cmdrdats ;) |
| 05:51 | ro_st | you'd only queue work that doesn't have to happen in the same response |
| 05:51 | ro_st | otherwise you'd just do a normal blocking api call |
| 05:51 | augustl | the request the front-end makes to the central API is stuff like "give me the data for the entity with this ID" |
| 05:52 | ro_st | yeah that'd be blocking |
| 05:52 | ro_st | stuff required to render a page |
| 05:52 | augustl | yeah |
| 05:52 | ro_st | we do outbound email and pdf gen with a queue though |
| 05:53 | augustl | I can't think of any call I'll make to the central API where I don't want a response back |
| 05:53 | ro_st | may i ask why the separation? |
| 05:53 | augustl | so, does it make sense to use queues for RPC? |
| 05:53 | cmdrdats | augustl: yes, queues make sense for RPC |
| 05:53 | ro_st | (not saying it's bad, just curious about your particular case) |
| 05:54 | cmdrdats | :) |
| 05:54 | augustl | ro_st: so that a multitude of systems can talk to the central API. The web front-end will have its own API, with user authentication etc. Then there'll be an admin app with full access to everything in the central API |
| 05:54 | ro_st | how, cmdrdats? |
| 05:54 | cmdrdats | one nice thing is that you can enforce a kind of SLA, so you can gracefully fail on timeouts |
| 05:54 | augustl | so the central API is essentially the database in the system |
| 05:54 | ro_st | augustl: ok, so it's a scalability and a separation of concerns thing |
| 05:55 | augustl | separation of concerns for now :) |
| 05:55 | augustl | cmdrdats: yay :) |
| 05:55 | cmdrdats | ro_st: it also means that other components that could use the api's, even in different languages |
| 05:55 | ro_st | yeah |
| 05:56 | ro_st | cmdrdats: how would async queues work with rpc, eg, fetching data for a page render? |
| 05:56 | augustl | so i guess the message I put in the request queue needs to have some kind of request ID, so I can consume only an item with that id from the response queue? |
| 05:57 | augustl | this seems to be explained here http://www.rabbitmq.com/tutorials/tutorial-six-python.html |
| 05:57 | cmdrdats | ro_st, augustl: you register a temp queue, send the message off and wait for response to the temp queue |
| 05:57 | xificurC | hi, if anyone has the nerves to answer stupid questions, here goes one: I just managed to get clojure and leiningen working on this laptop running win7. I downloaded a sample project from the compojure git, which uses a function named html5. It works just ok but of course I'd like to see what it does in the repl. So i start emacs, open the project.clj and do M-x nrepl-jack-in and copy the code, but it throws an exception. What am |
| 05:57 | ro_st | and you'd do this because you want the actual work on a separate machine? |
| 05:58 | augustl | cmdrdats, ro_st: this seems to be a lot of work, almost more than just doing HTTP |
| 05:58 | cmdrdats | https://github.com/Yuppiechef/simple-rabbit/blob/master/src/simple_rabbit/mq.clj#L106 |
| 05:58 | augustl | I think what I'm after is some sort of generic RPC system where I don't have to manage the transport. If I use HTTP, I have to manually figure out connection pooling, etc |
| 05:59 | cmdrdats | augustl: it's not really that much work - queues are very cheap |
| 06:00 | cmdrdats | augustl: here's an example https://github.com/Yuppiechef/simple-rabbit/blob/master/src/simple_rabbit/example.clj |
| 06:00 | cmdrdats | except that you'd want to use rpc-blocking instead of just rpc |
| 06:00 | augustl | checking out both now, thanks |
| 06:00 | cmdrdats | rpc runs a function upon receiving the result, rpc-blocking blocks the current thread until timeout or result and returns |
| 06:01 | ro_st | neat |
| 06:01 | ro_st | storm-project provides distributed rpc |
| 06:01 | ro_st | integrates like rpc, but uses the whole topology to compute |
| 06:02 | cmdrdats | that's just multiple machines listening on the same queue? |
| 06:02 | ro_st | "just", lol |
| 06:02 | ro_st | http://storm-project.net/ |
| 06:02 | cmdrdats | well, ye :P just fire up a bunch of machines configured to connect to the same server - done? |
| 06:02 | augustl | cmdrdats: so the rpc function will handle multiple requests for the same key properly, etc? |
| 06:02 | ro_st | http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Zolodeck |
| 06:02 | cmdrdats | yes |
| 06:02 | augustl | i.e. 5 concurrent requests to get a user by ID 5 or whatever |
| 06:03 | cmdrdats | because each request sends a respond_to key to the server |
| 06:03 | cmdrdats | so the server knows which temp queue to respond to for any given request |
| 06:03 | augustl | what's the benefit of doing this instead of using HTTP? |
| 06:04 | ro_st | retry semantics, presumably |
| 06:04 | augustl | that's not important in my case, a timeout is more than good enough |
| 06:05 | cmdrdats | one thing is that only rabbitmq has to be up for it to work |
| 06:05 | cmdrdats | if your consumer is dying, another machine can transparently pick up the workload |
| 06:05 | augustl | good point, that's nice |
| 06:05 | augustl | and kinf of obvious.. You don't care where the work is done |
| 06:05 | cmdrdats | ye :) |
| 06:06 | augustl | and presumably rabbit is up all the time, while the API goes down for restarts and whatever |
| 06:06 | cmdrdats | yep |
| 06:06 | cmdrdats | so you can spin up a failover machine, restart your main production machine safely |
| 06:06 | augustl | and temp queues aren't expensive or anything? |
| 06:06 | cmdrdats | no, they're quite efficient] |
| 06:06 | Anderkent|away | queues are cheap unless you're getting into millions |
| 06:07 | augustl | cmdrdats: and have multiple machines, just by, well, adding multiple machines :) |
| 06:07 | cmdrdats | augustl: heh, ye, exactly |
| 06:07 | cmdrdats | Anderkant: thanks - I'm not sure where the falloff point was for using temp queues |
| 06:07 | cmdrdats | Anderkent* |
| 06:08 | augustl | Anderkent: so in my case, that would be millions of concurrent requests? |
| 06:08 | clojurebot | No entiendo |
| 06:08 | Anderkent | augustl: i'd expect other stuff to give out first |
| 06:08 | Anderkent | connections are more expensive than queues |
| 06:08 | augustl | I see |
| 06:09 | Anderkent | assuming empty queue of course, if you put megabytes of data into a queue and don't consume it you will have problems |
| 06:09 | cmdrdats | augustl: that's true - you can generally use a single connection for an app, and build multiple channels within the connection |
| 06:09 | cmdrdats | pretty darn efficient |
| 06:09 | augustl | that's what I'm thinking |
| 06:10 | augustl | built another system with a similar structure (central internal API), using HTTP. Haven't load tested a lot yet, but I have a feeling opening a TCP connection for every operation is gonna suck |
| 06:12 | cmdrdats | augustl: you should be able to provide a queueing layer over your other system too? |
| 06:13 | cmdrdats | HTTP vs queuing isn't an exclusive choice :P |
| 06:14 | p_l | just a honest plea: think whether you really need HTTP :P |
| 06:14 | cmdrdats | I think HTTP would be applicable if you want to provide external services |
| 06:15 | cmdrdats | having 3rd party people jump onto your rabbitmq bus feels like a minefield |
| 06:16 | p_l | or if your API is "document" oriented (let's say, "noun oriented"), not "verb oriented" (actions etc) |
| 06:19 | Raynes | bbloom: That's cheating. |
| 06:20 | p_l | a "verb" api ... doesn't fit HTTP |
| 06:20 | p_l | (unless you're "tunnelling" over it) |
| 06:20 | augustl | cmdrdats: the other system has a public API, so that's why it's HTTP |
| 06:20 | augustl | what you said ;) |
| 06:21 | augustl | it's also used internally though, could always provide queues for internal use |
| 06:22 | augustl | hopefully we'll need to do that soon, for some scaling reason or whatever :) |
| 06:22 | augustl | been wanting to decouple my bussiness logic from HTTP status codes anyway.. |
| 06:26 | augustl | so, how do you choose an MQ? :) |
| 06:26 | p_l | augustl: depends what you need to do... |
| 06:26 | p_l | that is, what kind of flows you need |
| 06:27 | p_l | you might be satisified with just 0MQ doing a bit more than sockets :D |
| 06:28 | augustl | well, right now my only requirement is that it's a small amount of work to do RPC through it in clojure |
| 06:29 | cmdrdats | augustl: just write your code against a handful of abstraction functions so that you can flip out the actual queue implementation at any time |
| 06:29 | augustl | protocols |
| 06:29 | augustl | om nom :) |
| 06:29 | cmdrdats | ok, protocols if you like :P |
| 06:35 | iamdrw | does anybody know why library's code from :require is located below the code that'll be using it? in cljs |
| 06:37 | iamdrw | so I have goog.require('lib') before goof.provide('lib') |
| 07:22 | Raynes | How do people get anything done at all with cracked.com existing? |
| 07:24 | Hodapp | Raynes: I totally read all about this on some article... I think it was "10 Ways the Internet is Fucking Up Your Ability to Get Anything Done" |
| 07:25 | Raynes | That's a joke, isn't it? |
| 07:25 | Raynes | Yeah, that's a joke. |
| 07:25 | Hodapp | Dude, it's Cracked. Do you really think they DON'T have an article by almost that exact title? |
| 08:05 | xificurC | If I have a project.clj open with listed dependecies, shouldnt the deps automatically load in nrepl when I do nrepl-jack-in? |
| 08:06 | ro_st | yup |
| 08:08 | xificurC | ro_st: I have hiccup "1.0.2" listed as a dependency, however when I try a simple (html foo) I get an exception |
| 08:08 | ro_st | have you required it? |
| 08:08 | iamdrw | you have to load them via (:use ..) or (:require ..) in the ns statement |
| 08:08 | ro_st | (use 'hiccup.core) |
| 08:09 | iamdrw | or (use 'hiccup.core) |
| 08:10 | bpr | xificurC: the project.clj only ensures the dependencies are downloaded. To use them in code you have to require or use as ro_st and iamdrw have suggested |
| 08:10 | xificurC | thanks guys :) |
| 08:11 | xificurC | can you also recommend something worth reading and up to date regarding compojure/hiccup? |
| 08:11 | iamdrw | u r welcome |
| 08:11 | silasdavis | I'm using monger and I'm getting at Clojure Compiler: java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: cheshire.generate/add-encoder, compiling:(clojurewerkz/support/json.clj:79) |
| 08:12 | silasdavis | my project.clj has [cheshire "5.0.1"] dependency |
| 08:13 | silasdavis | I'm requiring monger.json in referenced module |
| 08:13 | silasdavis | The referencing goes server > handler > routes.home > message > monger.json |
| 08:14 | silasdavis | where those named things are modules |
| 08:14 | silasdavis | but it complains in server and handler |
| 08:14 | silasdavis | could someone enlighten me on where I might need to require things? |
| 08:16 | silasdavis | the docs don't say I have to do anything other than reference cheshire: http://clojuremongodb.info/articles/getting_started.html#cheshire_or_clojuredatajson |
| 08:19 | silasdavis | Looking at line 79 of https://github.com/clojurewerkz/support/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/support/json.clj can anyone tell me why the var cheshire.generate/add-encoder would be undefined? |
| 08:20 | silasdavis | given that the require 'cheshire.generate above must have worked... |
| 08:28 | ciphergoth | So putting stars around my variable doesn't make it dynamic, but if I have ^:dynamic defined on it, should I put stars around it anyway to adhere to convention? |
| 08:30 | babilen | ciphergoth: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards → "Use *earmuffs* only for things intended for rebinding. Don't use a special notation for constants; everything is assumed a constant unless specified otherwise." |
| 08:30 | ciphergoth | aces!" |
| 08:31 | ciphergoth | will read whole coding standards article - thank you! |
| 08:31 | babilen | ciphergoth: yw :) |
| 08:35 | ciphergoth | So should a function that calls dosync use the bang! ? |
| 08:41 | silasdavis | Does (catch Throwable t false) prevent further execution? |
| 08:42 | silasdavis | I should be more specific doesn (try (blah) (catch Throwable t false)) prevent later statements from being executed in a module |
| 09:01 | labria | hey |
| 10:07 | juxovec | how can I parse XML in clojure (must be lazy, file is approx 100 MB) |
| 10:09 | algernon | juxovec: data.xml may be what you want |
| 10:09 | Anderkent | clojure.xml might be lazy ( I think it uses SAX on the backend ), try it |
| 10:10 | juxovec | thx |
| 11:03 | xificurC | if I wanted to write the simplest of the web pages containing only text and hyperlinks, no fancy design or scripts or login or shoutboxes, what do I need? |
| 11:03 | yogthos | xificurC: http://www.luminusweb.net/ is an easy way to get rolling |
| 11:04 | yogthos | xificurC: the base app is completely barebones and you can just add your pages in as needed |
| 11:06 | xificurC | yogthos: thanks, finally something that seems to have some documentation for starters as well (I hope) :) I will check it out, thanks |
| 11:06 | yogthos | xificurC: yeah I'm trying to keep it beginner friendly, if anything's missing give me a ping and I'll add it :) |
| 11:07 | muhoo | silasdavis: iirc, everything inside the try stops, and it's an implicit do |
| 11:07 | muhoo | ,(doc try) |
| 11:07 | clojurebot | Huh? |
| 11:07 | muhoo | fuuuuuu |
| 11:07 | muhoo | &&(doc try) |
| 11:07 | lazybot | java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: & in this context |
| 11:08 | muhoo | &(doc try) |
| 11:08 | lazybot | ⇒ ------------------------- try (try expr* catch-clause* finally-clause?) Special Form catch-clause => (catch classname name expr*) finally-clause => (finally expr*) Catches and handles Java exceptions. Please see http://clojure.org/special_forms#try nil |
| 11:09 | xificurC | thanks yogthos |
| 11:10 | xificurC | dont tell me to ping you because you might get a dozen of noob questions coming up tomorrow :p |
| 11:10 | yogthos | xificurC: haha, let's say some constructive feedback will be welcome :) |
| 11:11 | xificurC | yogthos: sounds much better :) |
| 11:11 | yogthos | hehe |
| 11:11 | muhoo | ibdknox: nm, you asked about catch. sorry |
| 11:11 | muhoo | silasdavis: sorry |
| 11:12 | muhoo | ibdknox: no, not you. gah, can't read or type today. sorry |
| 11:34 | dnolen | stuartsierra: any chance of adding Nada Amin to the Clojure org & core.logic repo to make collaboration easier? or is there someone else I should ping? |
| 11:34 | stuartsierra | not my call |
| 11:34 | stuartsierra | email clojure-dev |
| 11:34 | dnolen | stuartsierra: ok, already did |
| 11:35 | stuartsierra | I'll ping Stu H., but nothing else I can do. |
| 11:35 | dnolen | stuartsierra: it's a bit annoying that project leads can't do this themselves. |
| 11:35 | ohpauleez | dnolen: That's mostly Andy now |
| 11:35 | ohpauleez | I can email him off list, if you like |
| 11:35 | dnolen | ohpauleez: so Andy has access to the team memberships on GitHub? |
| 11:35 | dnolen | ohpauleez: that would be sweet. I've already requested it twice. |
| 11:36 | silasdavis | yogthos: has luminus changed to not include a server.clj? |
| 11:37 | yogthos | silasdavis: yeah I moved to using ring instead |
| 11:37 | yogthos | silasdavis: I added repl.clj for running from a repl without using lein |
| 11:38 | silasdavis | can I just copy that and delete server or are there any other changes? |
| 11:38 | yogthos | silasdavis: somebody was asking about the change on my blog, check the last comment I made there http://yogthos.net/blog/35 |
| 11:38 | silasdavis | ta |
| 11:38 | yogthos | silasdavis: there's a couple of small changes |
| 11:40 | yogthos | weavejester: ping |
| 11:40 | weavejester | yogthos: Yep? |
| 11:40 | yogthos | weavejester: what's your thoughts on something like this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8616 |
| 11:41 | yogthos | weavejester: or is there a part of ring I'm ignorant of as usual :P |
| 11:41 | yogthos | weavejester: err compojure :) |
| 11:43 | weavejester | yogthos: Hm, I don't really like the syntax... |
| 11:44 | weavejester | (def foo (GET "/" [] …)) vs. (defroute foo GET "/" [] …) |
| 11:44 | yogthos | yeah essentially |
| 11:44 | yogthos | I one set of parens less :) |
| 11:45 | michaelr525 | hello |
| 11:45 | yogthos | hi? |
| 11:45 | weavejester | TBH I'm not even sure I like the "defroutes" form in Compojure currently... |
| 11:45 | yogthos | the nice thing about it is that it groups the routes together in one spot |
| 11:46 | yogthos | so you can always trace where all the entry points are |
| 11:49 | ohpauleez | dnolen: done. |
| 11:51 | yogthos | weavejester: what were you thinking for defroutes alternativeS? |
| 11:51 | weavejester | yogthos: Just (def foo (routes …)) |
| 11:52 | dnolen | ohpauleez: done as in done, or email sent? :) |
| 11:52 | ohpauleez | email sent |
| 11:52 | ohpauleez | haha |
| 11:53 | yogthos | weavejester: ah that might not be bad, but I do like it being explicit |
| 11:53 | yogthos | and afk |
| 11:54 | dnolen | ohpauleez: thanks! |
| 11:54 | weavejester | yogthos: Hm? That is more explicit... |
| 11:54 | ohpauleez | np |
| 11:54 | ohpauleez | totally welcome dnolen |
| 11:57 | bpr | weavejester, yogthos|away: i had a use case where the (routes ...) form was necessary (as opposed to (defroutes ...) because I had to delay the definition of the routes until the rest of the system was available. |
| 11:59 | weavejester | bpr: Why did you have to do that? |
| 12:03 | bpr | I set it up so that the sub-components of the system were initialized based on the environment vars. Once that initialization was ready I invoked the function that defined the routes... basically dependency injection |
| 12:03 | bpr | lol. i coulda said all that in 2 words :-p |
| 12:11 | silasdavis | can anyone tell me why I get "CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: cheshire.generate/add-encoder, compiling:(clojurewerkz/support/json.clj:79) " when compiling this monger-requiring module: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8617? |
| 12:12 | silasdavis | I've moved the code from a different project structure and I think I'm missing something about how dependencies are handled |
| 12:12 | hiredman | .win 15 |
| 12:12 | silasdavis | I have [cheshire "5.0.1"] in my project.clj |
| 12:15 | dakrone | silasdavis: does 5.0.1 show up in your deps when you do a `lein deps :tree`? |
| 12:15 | silasdavis | dakrone: yes |
| 12:16 | dakrone | silasdavis: hmm.. seems like something the clojurewerkz [sic] guys should look into |
| 12:16 | dakrone | the function is there in the cheshire code :) |
| 12:16 | silasdavis | oh really you think it's not me.. |
| 12:16 | silasdavis | yes it is |
| 12:16 | dakrone | silasdavis: not sure without seeing all the code |
| 12:17 | silasdavis | here is the block: |
| 12:17 | silasdavis | https://www.refheap.com/paste/8618 |
| 12:18 | silasdavis | I'm assuming the way that works is that if the first try succeeds in requiring cheshire.generate then the second try runs the add-encoder bit |
| 12:18 | silasdavis | I've tried this in one of my own modules and it seems to work |
| 12:19 | dakrone | yea, sounds like something weird in their library |
| 12:23 | technomancy | weavejester: what do you think about future compojure handler/site or handler/api middlewares binding *read-eval* false? |
| 12:24 | weavejester | technomancy: Chas mentioned that as well. It might be a good idea to add some kind of middleware to do it, then add it to the standard set. |
| 12:26 | technomancy | any plans for a backwards-incompatible 2.0 yet? =) |
| 12:27 | technomancy | though I suppose you could make a pretty good case for this fixing a bug in clojure itself |
| 12:29 | technomancy | it's one thing to bind *read-eval* to true by default and one thing to have it be a secret undocumented feature, but doing both is absolutely nuts |
| 12:31 | mae | how does one apply varargs to a native java function, the correct way, i have tried (into-array) but i get null pointer exceptions |
| 12:35 | matthavener | is there something written about *read-eval* in clojure documentation? i read some docs, but i don't understand why the reader would ever need to (eval ..) in the first place |
| 12:35 | ska` | Is anyone familiar with the impl of the new reducers? I'd like to understand why in line 110 "this" is used, whereas the other implementing definitions use "coll". |
| 12:35 | jeremyheiler | mae, do you have a stack trace to show us? |
| 12:35 | technomancy | matthavener: it's a secret feature; IIRC the only documentation for it is the docstring on *read-eval* itself |
| 12:36 | technomancy | matthavener: it looks like clojuredocs.org has an example though |
| 12:36 | technomancy | http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/*read-eval* |
| 12:36 | mae | @jeremyheiler sure but its a bit complicated what i'm trying to do, i'm trying to generate classes for voltdb procedures |
| 12:36 | dnolen | ska`: looks like a naming inconsistency, `this` doesn't mean anything special. |
| 12:36 | mae | @jeremyheiler give me some time, i was just wondering if anyone had any experience with native vararg functions and maybe alittle snippet example |
| 12:37 | TimMc | technomancy: I have a patch on JIRA for documenting it in read and read-string, but... |
| 12:38 | technomancy | TimMc: keep up the good fight |
| 12:38 | ska` | @dnolen: ain't "this" the first argument when calling e.g. coll-reduce but using "coll" creates a closure in this case? |
| 12:38 | matthavener | what is #= ? don't see it in the clojure cheatsheet |
| 12:38 | TimMc | technomancy: It has been screened, so I guess that's progress. |
| 12:39 | technomancy | matthavener: <whisper>because it's secret</whisper> |
| 12:39 | technomancy | TimMc: is it? I can't tell any more. |
| 12:39 | TimMc | Well, it wasn't rejected, so it must be a *good* change, right? |
| 12:40 | matthavener | that's too bad |
| 12:40 | dnolen | ska`: no, it `this` has no special meaning ever |
| 12:40 | technomancy | matthavener: it just means you can sneak arbitrary evals into calls to the reader |
| 12:40 | jeremyheiler | mae, ok. you definitely should just be able to pass it in as an array. |
| 12:40 | technomancy | if that sounds crazy it's because it is =) |
| 12:41 | matthavener | yeah, at least "EvalReader" is aptly named |
| 12:41 | dnolen | ska`: it's just convention to write `this`, they could have (and probably should have) written `coll` instead - the code would do the same thing. |
| 12:41 | matthavener | someone should rename it "ReaderComplectedWithEval" :P |
| 12:41 | nDuff | mae: I do have experience, and it's always worked with into-array for me. Just a moment, and I'll find a snippet. |
| 12:42 | mae | @nDuff thanks i've done it before but i'm headdesking right now with trying to get voltdb to make these clojure-procedures work |
| 12:42 | TimMc | matthavener: It also doesn't work quite the way you'd think: |
| 12:42 | TimMc | user=> (read-string "#=(class (+ 1 2))") ;;= clojure.lang.PersistentList |
| 12:42 | matthavener | TimMc: yeah I tried passing #= to my repl but i guess its a read-string only thing? |
| 12:43 | nDuff | mae: ...so, a typical use, in this case with an empty arg list: (.invoke getter instance (into-array Object [])) |
| 12:44 | clgv | ,(read-string "#=(System/exit 0)") |
| 12:44 | clojurebot | #<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when *read-eval* is false.> |
| 12:44 | clgv | good bot |
| 12:44 | technomancy | ~botsnack |
| 12:44 | clojurebot | Thanks, but I prefer chocolate |
| 12:44 | clgv | ~chocolate |
| 12:44 | clojurebot | Huh? |
| 12:44 | clgv | lol |
| 12:44 | technomancy | ingrate |
| 12:45 | Anderkent | clgv: but that would only give you ClassNotFoundException System :) |
| 12:45 | TimMc | Why? |
| 12:45 | clojurebot | Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone |
| 12:45 | clgv | Anderkent: not really. try it in your own repl |
| 12:45 | Anderkent | I did |
| 12:45 | Anderkent | and thats what i got |
| 12:45 | TimMc | ,(System/currentTimeMillis) |
| 12:45 | clojurebot | 1358184667428 |
| 12:46 | clgv | Anderkent: you have a strange repl then^^ |
| 12:46 | Anderkent | but with (read-string "#=(java.lang.System/exit 0)") it stopped responding and even ctrl-c doesnt work :D |
| 12:46 | Anderkent | lein repl |
| 12:46 | mae | @nDuff right on readingu p on .invoke, i was using .methodName before |
| 12:46 | TimMc | matthavener: (+ 1 #=(+ 2 3)) ;;= 6 |
| 12:46 | nDuff | mae: "invoke" is the name of the method I was calling. |
| 12:46 | mae | oh nm |
| 12:46 | mae | lol |
| 12:47 | mae | just realized |
| 12:47 | technomancy | mae: just a heads up that IRC isn't Twitter =) |
| 12:47 | nDuff | mae: Have a standalone reproducer for the issue you're seeing? |
| 12:47 | S11001001 | technomancy: we should get lambdabot in here |
| 12:47 | mae | technomancy: no problem, i have a habit of short messages, blame flowdock for that ; ) |
| 12:47 | TimMc | S11001001: Does it yell at people for @ing? |
| 12:47 | S11001001 | TimMc: it'll say "Unknown command, try @list" |
| 12:47 | TimMc | haha |
| 12:47 | technomancy | nice |
| 12:48 | S11001001 | you know, unless your nick happens to be "type" or "pl" or something |
| 12:48 | TimMc | brb, setting up for a long troll |
| 12:48 | mae | technomancy: were you referring to the @ tag? :) |
| 12:49 | TimMc | Well, "troll" isn't quite right. Meh. |
| 12:49 | ska` | @dnolen: I understand, that "this" has no special meaning, it just happens to be the name of the first argument in that function. However, "coll" is the name of the argument to #'reducer and thus, the difference here is, whether the first argument of the function of the protocol is used or the argument of the surrounding function. Or am I misunderstanding something? |
| 12:52 | patchwork | Hey all, I am having an issue with clojure.data.json. I see the function names were updated, but this is suddenly breaking my app. How could a new version have been included in my project without me changing any dependencies? |
| 12:52 | patchwork | This is madness! |
| 12:52 | S11001001 | patchwork: how did you depend on it? |
| 12:53 | technomancy | patchwork: could be a transitive version range: http://nelsonmorris.net/2012/07/31/do-not-use-version-ranges-in-project-clj.html |
| 12:53 | S11001001 | patchwork: well, in general, you can spec deps in an unstable way, and if any of your deps do so, you inherit that instability |
| 12:53 | patchwork | I have no snapshots, if that's what you mean |
| 12:53 | technomancy | but yeah, it's madness. if you're depending on a project that specifies a version range you should report it as a bug. |
| 12:53 | patchwork | In fact, it is not being included anywhere explicitly |
| 12:54 | ska` | @patchwork IIRC 0.2.0 introduced a breaking change, but 0.2.1 restored the old API |
| 12:54 | patchwork | Wow, really? |
| 12:54 | technomancy | yeah, that was a real face-palm |
| 12:54 | patchwork | Still unsure how it could change out from under me |
| 12:54 | patchwork | Cool, thanks guys |
| 12:54 | technomancy | patchwork: read the link I posted |
| 12:55 | patchwork | Ah, not using ranged versions either |
| 12:55 | technomancy | patchwork: you're not directly using ranged versions, but you probably are indirectly |
| 12:55 | Anderkent | patchwork: but if you depend on a library that does, that might break your build |
| 12:55 | patchwork | Oh man! |
| 12:55 | patchwork | wow |
| 12:56 | patchwork | That is terrible |
| 12:56 | Anderkent | yep, they're kinda evil |
| 12:56 | technomancy | someone should write a bot that goes through all clojure projects on github and yells at people if they use version ranges |
| 12:56 | technomancy | anyone looking for a project? |
| 12:56 | Anderkent | haha, sounds good, I'll add it to my todo list |
| 12:57 | patchwork | That could actually be a good solution |
| 12:57 | patchwork | if people are not being informed in some other way |
| 12:57 | Anderkent | I suppose rather than crawling github I'd crawl clojars |
| 12:57 | technomancy | Anderkent: true |
| 12:57 | technomancy | you should just steal that code from clojuresphere actually |
| 13:01 | Anderkent | I don't see a crawler there, on the first look. I think lein-outdated might be more help |
| 13:01 | Anderkent | anyway |
| 13:02 | progo | I'm translating some hrefs in HTML using enlive's at. I'm passing it a function but that function isn't within my dynamic binding scope. Should I write a closure instead? https://www.refheap.com/paste/8619 |
| 13:02 | technomancy | Anderkent: actually I think it just tells you how to rsync over the entire pile of poms? |
| 13:03 | Anderkent | oh right, I didn't read the readme :) |
| 13:03 | mae | nDuff: I am still trying to isolate the issue more, but here is the gist: |
| 13:04 | mae | nDuff: https://www.refheap.com/paste/8620 |
| 13:07 | mae | something probably more to do with the way voltdb reflects on the procedure class |
| 13:07 | mae | been climbing through their source code on github |
| 13:08 | silasdavis | dakrone: oh you are cheshire! |
| 13:08 | dakrone | silasdavis: yes |
| 13:09 | silasdavis | well thanks... it seems that lib-noir pulls in cheshire 4.0.0 |
| 13:09 | silasdavis | when you explicitly require 5.0.1 that disappears from lein deps :tree |
| 13:09 | silasdavis | but could that be causing the issue with add-encoder? |
| 13:09 | dakrone | yea, that could be, sounds like it should explicitly require the 5.0.1 version |
| 13:13 | silasdavis | so even though I explicitly require 5.0.1 it will still get 4.0.0? |
| 13:15 | Anderkent|away | technomancy: is it only open ended version ranges that should be nuked, or any? How about hard dependencies [1.0]? |
| 13:15 | silasdavis | hm, not still doesn't work when I remove that |
| 13:15 | technomancy | Anderkent|away: IMO those are harmful too |
| 13:15 | dakrone | silasdavis: if you explicitly specify 5.0.1 it should be using that |
| 13:16 | dakrone | silasdavis: if it's not, something weird is going on with lein |
| 13:25 | yogthos | silasdavis: I could also update lib-noir to the latest cheshire |
| 13:36 | mae | nDuff: the exception is originating from this line: https://github.com/VoltDB/voltdb/blob/voltdb-2.8.4.1/src/frontend/org/voltdb/ProcedureRunner.java#L1138 |
| 13:36 | mae | lol |
| 13:36 | mae | man i hate java, thanks be to clojure for making java not suck |
| 13:38 | yogthos | mae: indeed, all of a sudden jvm is a viable platform :P |
| 13:39 | gfredericks | wow; (->> coll (cycle) (drop n) (take (count coll))) is 3 times slower than (seq (into (vec (drop n coll)) (vec (take n coll)))) |
| 13:39 | mae | yogthos: yeppers ; ) |
| 13:40 | nDuff | mae: Am I missing something, then? I don't see anything that looks like an issue with varargs. |
| 13:42 | mae | nDuff: nope i never claimed that there was a problem with varargs, was just one of the many possible culprits, thanks for your help |
| 13:42 | silasdavis | I'm trying to build a simple test case for my cheshire add-encoder problem |
| 13:42 | silasdavis | how can I get joda time in my class path so I can use (:import [org.joda.time DateTime DateTimeZone ReadableInstant])? |
| 13:44 | yogthos | dakrone: there's not breaking api changes in cheshire 5 from 4 right? |
| 13:44 | dakrone | yogthos: from 5 to 4 I think it would be breaking, from 4 to 5 it wouldn't be... |
| 13:44 | dakrone | ie, if you were expecting 5.x, 4 wouldn't work, if you were expecting 4.x, 5 will work fine |
| 13:45 | yogthos | dakrone: yeah that's what I meant ;) I'm going to bump lib-noir to the latest |
| 13:46 | dakrone | yogthos: you can bump it, an NS is deprecated though, so it would be good to eventually move to the non-deprecated one |
| 13:47 | yogthos | dakrone: what's NS again? |
| 13:47 | dakrone | namespace |
| 13:47 | dakrone | yogthos: cheshire.custom is deprecated in 5.x |
| 13:47 | yogthos | ah yeah I can update not to use it |
| 13:47 | yogthos | if we are :) |
| 13:48 | yogthos | what's the new one to use? |
| 13:48 | yogthos | core? |
| 13:48 | clojurebot | core is what you put in a namespace when you can't think of a better way to avoid single-segment namespaces. |
| 13:48 | dakrone | yogthos: if you are using add-encoder, use cheshire.generate now, otherwise everything should be in core |
| 13:48 | technomancy | ~botsnack |
| 13:48 | clojurebot | Thanks, but I prefer chocolate |
| 13:48 | yogthos | ok cool |
| 13:49 | dakrone | yogthos: https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire#custom-encoders |
| 13:49 | dakrone | yogthos: and https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire#note-cheshirecustom-has-been-deprecated-in-version-500 |
| 13:49 | tomoj | clojurebot: api is what you put in a namespace when you can't think of a better way to avoid single-segment namespaces |
| 13:49 | clojurebot | Ok. |
| 13:49 | yogthos | cool thanks, yeah only thing lib-noir does is encode json response with it |
| 13:51 | dnolen | nice, http://clojurescript.net |
| 13:52 | yogthos | weavejester: still around? |
| 13:52 | gfredericks | dnolen: man someone asked at my talk about cljs-in-cljs and I was like "well I'd be surprised if there were anything in the next few months..." |
| 13:52 | weavejester | yogthos: Yep |
| 13:53 | yogthos | weavejester: so about the whole route defining, I think there's some value in having syntax which indicates what's happening |
| 13:54 | yogthos | weavejester: like you can just use (def ...) for it, but then things don't jump out at you as easily when reading code |
| 13:54 | weavejester | yogthos: But surely (def foo (bar …)) is more descriptive than (defbar foo …) |
| 13:54 | technomancy | weavejester: I agree; defroutes is the one thing about compojure that still feels iffy |
| 13:54 | weavejester | The former tells you exactly what it does |
| 13:54 | weavejester | The latter is very opaque |
| 13:54 | yogthos | that's true |
| 13:55 | technomancy | (not that you have to use it) |
| 13:55 | yogthos | the advantage is that you document the intent with the second one |
| 13:55 | technomancy | huh? |
| 13:55 | yogthos | hmm how to explain :) |
| 13:56 | technomancy | the only advantage of defroutes is that it saves one level of nesting, so it makes it easier to fit things in 80 columns |
| 13:56 | weavejester | I'm not sure I agree. (def foo (bar …)) is a better indicator of intent - that you want to define a new var |
| 13:56 | weavejester | technomancy: yogthos was actually proposing a "defroute" |
| 13:56 | yogthos | hmm I see the other side of it too though |
| 13:56 | weavejester | technomancy: i.e. (defroute foo GET "/" [] …) => (def foo (GET "/" [] …)) |
| 13:56 | muhoo | wait, isn't that a noir thing? |
| 13:57 | yogthos | if you keep to one standard syntax it's easier to tell exactly what it's doing |
| 13:57 | technomancy | weavejester: huh; I see |
| 13:57 | technomancy | I disagree; introducing new syntax obscures what's actually going on |
| 13:58 | yogthos | technomancy: I agree with that |
| 13:58 | jweiss | if 2 threads try to update the value of 2 different keys in a map in a ref, does that cause a collision and retry? |
| 13:58 | weavejester | I'm generally not a huge fan of macros that define things |
| 13:58 | technomancy | unless it's something that can't be implemented in terms of a function obviously |
| 13:59 | muhoo | the way that noir did route definition via macros made them very difficult to compose and work with |
| 13:59 | nDuff | jweiss: The STM subsystem doesn't know that much about the datastructures behind it. |
| 13:59 | technomancy | muhoo: true, but wasn't that largely because it didn't use vars at all? |
| 13:59 | technomancy | IMO this is more a matter of taste than an actual technical problem |
| 14:00 | nDuff | jweiss: ...if the STM subsystem could DWIM, alter and commute wouldn't be two different things. :) |
| 14:00 | jweiss | nDuff: so if i use one huge ref, even if my threads are not trying to update same place inside it at the same time, then it would potentially get a lot of conflicts? |
| 14:00 | muhoo | ah, it was defpage not defroute. |
| 14:00 | yogthos | weavejester: I definitely appreciate the transparency argument |
| 14:01 | nDuff | jweiss: Yes. That said, there will always be at least one thing succeeding, so it might be worth verifying that you actually have a problem before redesigning to work around it. |
| 14:01 | jweiss | i am not really clear on what commute is supposed to be for. the docs for refs seems to assume i already know what it does. |
| 14:02 | weavejester | jweiss: It's for applying functions where the order doesn't affect the result. |
| 14:02 | muhoo | technomancy: IIRC, defpage was a macro that wrapped around compojure's defroute. it made stuff like this necessary: https://github.com/kenrestivo/crudite/blob/master/src/crudite/core.clj |
| 14:02 | weavejester | jweiss: e.g. if one thread adds 2 to a counter, and another thread adds 1 to a counter |
| 14:02 | technomancy | muhoo: yikes |
| 14:02 | weavejester | jweiss: Whichever thread goes first, the same result occurs. |
| 14:02 | muhoo | still gotta rewrite that to use pure compojure. eventually. |
| 14:03 | jweiss | weavejester: ah that helps, thanks. i think most of my transactions would be commute, then |
| 14:03 | jweiss | since they are updating different values in the same map, i don't care which one gets updated first. |
| 14:04 | weavejester | jweiss: It effectively does the same thing as alter, but it's more efficient, because it doesn't have to coordinate order. |
| 14:04 | weavejester | jweiss: So long as you're sure that two threads won't update the same value |
| 14:05 | weavejester | But usually it's for things like counters |
| 14:05 | weavejester | (commute counter inc) |
| 14:05 | jweiss | in my case, it's a test harness where multiple threads are running different tests and updating a map of results. two threads won't be running the same test. so should be fine. |
| 14:05 | weavejester | jweiss: Ah, I see. That should be okay, then. |
| 14:06 | TimMc | Nice, that's a use of commute I hadn't considered. |
| 14:06 | TimMc | jweiss: Now go learn about ##(doc ensure)! :-D |
| 14:06 | lazybot | ⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/ensure ([ref]) Must be called in a transaction. Protects the ref from modification by other transactions. Returns the in-transaction-value of ref. Allows for more concurrency than (ref-set ref @ref) nil |
| 14:10 | jweiss | TimMc: I'm not sure what that is for either, seems like i wouldn't need it for what i'm doing. |
| 14:11 | TimMc | Yeah, I doubt you'd need it. |
| 14:11 | nDuff | jweiss: in that kind of use case, basically all your work will be inside the test itself. |
| 14:11 | TimMc | It's actually pretty important to know about, though. |
| 14:11 | nDuff | jweiss: ...so, as long as the update at the end of the test is in its own transaction, it's not an issue if that gets retried. |
| 14:12 | TimMc | If writing to ref B depends on the value of ref A, and you aren't writing to A, you need to call (ensure A). |
| 14:12 | nDuff | jweiss: ...it's if you tried to put the test itself in the transaction that things would be ugly. |
| 14:12 | TimMc | That prevents some other transaction from sneakily changing A out from under you. |
| 14:13 | jweiss | nDuff: right, the test results would be fine that way. i had also considered putting the trace in there too (which would be quite verbose and frequent updates), but i think that might be a bad idea. especially if i have watchers on the ref. i don't want the watcher just doing a no-op because a function got traced. |
| 14:13 | silasdavis | is there a way to clean a leiningen project? |
| 14:13 | TimMc | silasdavis: lein clean |
| 14:13 | silasdavis | I'm getting errors that don't happen when I copy most of the code into a fresh project |
| 14:14 | TimMc | lein 1 or 2? |
| 14:14 | silasdavis | ... that's 2 hours I'm never getting back |
| 14:15 | silasdavis | TimMc: thanks |
| 14:15 | silasdavis | 2 - it worked |
| 14:17 | calis_ | are there any blogging systems written in clojure? |
| 14:20 | zodiak | calis_, not that I am aware of.. but it sounds like a good learning project ;) |
| 14:21 | dnolen | calis_: there's a Jekyll like thing |
| 14:21 | ohpauleez | and I've seen some blog-like examples for Compojure and the now defunct Noir |
| 14:21 | ohpauleez | but no formal project |
| 14:22 | tuor | I'm trying to get started with clojure and korma, but I'm getting a CannotAcquireResourceException (see https://www.refheap.com/paste/8622 ). Any ideas? |
| 14:22 | calis_ | Yeah, I think there are static page generators, but no commenting systems |
| 14:24 | thorwil | calis_: i'm *slowly* writing a blogging platform which will include a commenting system. not there, yet |
| 14:27 | zodiak | tuor, that's not a korma error, but rather a c3p0 error that korma relies on for resource pools |
| 14:30 | tuor | Thanks zodiak. Where should I look to solve the c3p0 error? |
| 14:31 | jcrossley3 | tuor: i might first try ruling out problems with the odbc driver. maybe try h2? |
| 14:32 | zodiak | tuor, sadly, the way I sorted that error when I had it was to jump down to an earlier c3p0 zip |
| 14:32 | zodiak | I think I tried 0.9.0. .. something or other (it was a pet project/sandbox/dev tinker) |
| 14:33 | tuor | jcrossley3, I don't understand reference to "h2". The odbc driver works with a straight connection, but might it not work with c3p0? |
| 14:34 | tuor | zodiak, I will try a different c3p0 version, then. Thanks! |
| 14:34 | zodiak | jcrossley3, long time no see ;) |
| 14:34 | hiredman | tuor: c3p0 can be kind of touchy, it may need tuning |
| 14:35 | tuor | hiredman, that's good to know. I just assumed korma would take care of setting up c3p0. |
| 14:36 | technomancy | tuor: the fact that Korma thinks it can take care of setting up c3p0 is one of my biggest annoyances with it. |
| 14:37 | jcrossley3 | technomancy: thankfully, i think alexbaranosky is addressing that |
| 14:37 | technomancy | jcrossley3: cool |
| 14:37 | tuor | technomancy, is there something else you recommend? I am dealing with a legacy read-only database, and I like the idea of composable queries. |
| 14:37 | technomancy | tuor: there is no good solution for SQL databases right now in Clojure to the best of my knowledge |
| 14:38 | technomancy | clojure.java.jdbc makes fewer mistakes merely by virtue of being lower-level |
| 14:38 | technomancy | but it's still misguided in a number of disappointing ways |
| 14:38 | TimMc | technomancy: Hey, have you had occasion to figure out how to manage transactions explicitly in c.j.jdbc? |
| 14:39 | TimMc | specifically for SQLite |
| 14:39 | tuor | technomancy, ok. Well, I was using straight SQL before, so I can continue on that road. |
| 14:39 | technomancy | TimMc: no, I think SQLite on the JVM is a lost cause |
| 14:39 | TimMc | D-: |
| 14:39 | technomancy | I couldn't get it working anyway |
| 14:40 | TimMc | I have a project that uses SQLite. :-/ |
| 14:40 | technomancy | we are in the process of moving clojars off SQL entirely |
| 14:40 | TimMc | Oh right, you're using Lucene. |
| 14:40 | brehaut | one of my friends has managed to get SQLite going with clojure + korma. it works, but it keeps running into horrific slowdowns for him |
| 14:41 | technomancy | TimMc: actually more of a mix of Lucene and in-memory atoms now |
| 14:41 | amalloy | technomancy: you just unveiled some kind of github aws pair-programming thing, didn't you? what are the advantages over just tmuxing into a colleague's computer? |
| 14:41 | technomancy | tuor: the most promising thing I've seen in this area is this https://github.com/jkk/honeysql but it's not ready yet |
| 14:42 | technomancy | amalloy: NAT, key management, and user creation/trust mostly. |
| 14:42 | tuor | Thanks for the help, technomancy. |
| 14:42 | technomancy | plus you don't have to interrupt the pairing session if you (for instance) move your laptop to a different network or hibernate it |
| 14:43 | technomancy | amalloy: but if you already have a server set up for it and you typically collaborate with the same users then there's no much benefit |
| 14:44 | technomancy | amalloy: but also: the fact that you can implement it in ~400 LOC of clojure =D |
| 14:46 | TimMc | technomancy: In my case, I mainly read all the data out of the DB, munge it in memory, then spit it back out into a different DB. |
| 14:47 | technomancy | TimMc: you might not hit the same problems I was hitting then. but I'd still never recommend sqlite when there are h2 and derby |
| 14:48 | technomancy | nDuff: have you used the xerial JDBC adapter? |
| 14:48 | nDuff | (unclean shutdown / data loss issues, mostly) |
| 14:48 | nDuff | ...no, that I haven't. |
| 14:48 | technomancy | ok, that's specifically the part that is horrible |
| 14:48 | technomancy | sqlite from not-the-JVM is fine |
| 14:48 | nDuff | Ahh. |
| 14:48 | nDuff | That I can believe. |
| 14:49 | hiredman | derby is very nice |
| 14:51 | SegFaultAX | Is derby something like sqlite3? |
| 14:51 | technomancy | yeah, but it's a pure-java implementation |
| 14:51 | SegFaultAX | Oh, that's kinda neat! |
| 14:51 | SegFaultAX | Is it reasonably stable? |
| 14:51 | hiredman | I imagine derby predates sqlite? not sure |
| 14:52 | hiredman | http://db.apache.org/derby/ |
| 14:52 | SegFaultAX | hiredman: Looking at it now. |
| 14:52 | jweiss | is it better to declare a record with just fields it will always have, or include even optional fields. or better to assoc in optional fields later? |
| 14:53 | hiredman | the in memory datomic transactor seems to embed h2, but I am not very familiar with that |
| 14:58 | jcrossley3 | SegFaultAX: h2 is reasonably stable, but often you need to tweak its defaults, so your connection string ends up with a lot of config, e.g. MVCC=TRUE;AUTO_SERVER=TRUE;DB_CLOSE_ON_EXIT=FALSE |
| 14:59 | SegFaultAX | jcrossley3: What is h2? Is that a derby distribution or something? |
| 14:59 | mae | what does the @ prefix do/ |
| 15:00 | hiredman | I get a postgres vs. mysql vibe from h2 vs. derby |
| 15:00 | amalloy | ,'@x |
| 15:00 | clojurebot | (clojure.core/deref x) |
| 15:00 | jcrossley3 | SegFaultAX: different projects, similar goals (java rdbms) |
| 15:01 | technomancy | hiredman: which is which? |
| 15:01 | hiredman | technomancy: in order above |
| 15:01 | hiredman | but I have never used h2 for anything ever |
| 15:02 | SegFaultAX | So h2 is significantly better in most respects? |
| 15:02 | technomancy | hiredman: but you said derby is actually nice |
| 15:02 | hiredman | sure |
| 15:02 | hiredman | it is, and it works ok |
| 15:02 | hiredman | I have no experience with h2 |
| 15:03 | hiredman | it is just sort of a general vibe |
| 15:04 | mae | another question: with :state in gen-class, can i declare multiple fields? |
| 15:04 | mae | i.e. multiple member fields |
| 15:04 | ebaxt | I'm struggling to add a defmethod without restarting the repl, is that not possible? |
| 15:05 | pbostrom | fwiw, I worked on a pretty heavyweight Java app a few years ago that was configured to use derby by default, I always thought it worked pretty well |
| 15:07 | hiredman | love core.logic? all about list comprehensions? wonder if you should use a list monad? trying embedding a sql database today! |
| 15:08 | ebaxt | Never mind, I forgot to (var dispatch-fn) |
| 15:10 | TylerE | Is it possible to get the la clojure plugin for intellij to do "intelligent" code formating by default, e.g. aligning the test clauses in a cond |
| 15:10 | TylerE | I know that emacs+slime can do that sort of thing, but I'm pretty used to intellij these days |
| 15:13 | SegFaultAX | What does the , in ,'@x do? Is that a comment? |
| 15:13 | mae | SegFaultAX: dereferencing |
| 15:13 | SegFaultAX | mae: That's @ |
| 15:13 | mae | lol |
| 15:13 | mae | nm then |
| 15:24 | llasram | SegFaultAX: Looks kind of like someone trying to CL-style unquoting |
| 15:24 | SegFaultAX | llasram: That's what I assumed. |
| 15:27 | jonasen | cemerick: My first nrepl middleware: https://github.com/jonase/nrepl-transcript :) |
| 15:27 | yogthos | hiredman: technomancy: question for you guys :) I've got support for a whole bunch of dbs in luminus, would it be better to trim that to some recommended ones |
| 15:28 | yogthos | for example, between sqlite, derby, and h2, is there one that's generally preferred and recommended over the others |
| 15:28 | cemerick | jonasen: Nice :-) |
| 15:29 | cemerick | jonasen: Did you find the architecture, APIs, etc reasonable to work with? |
| 15:29 | jonasen | cemerick: Yes. It was pretty easy. |
| 15:30 | hiredman | yogthos: I definitely think using sqlite from the jvm is silly |
| 15:31 | yogthos | hiredman: I always use postgres myself, so I have very passing familiarity with the embedded dbs |
| 15:31 | jonasen | cemerick: but it's not a particularly complicated middleware either |
| 15:31 | cemerick | sure |
| 15:31 | yogthos | hiredman: I'm leaning towards just including h2 or derby, but not really sure which one's better :) |
| 15:32 | cemerick | jonasen: you're capturing stuff off of the transport though, which is the significant departure from e.g. the ring model |
| 15:32 | technomancy | yogthos: maybe nDuff and jcrossley3 could share their experiences |
| 15:33 | cemerick | jcrossley3, tcrawley: BTW, pipes look pretty slick :-) |
| 15:33 | nDuff | Not sure I want to go into the details, but I've had plenty of issues with H2 stores being corrupted on unclean shutdown. |
| 15:34 | tcrawley | cemerick: thanks! I see it as a work-in-progress, but it has potential |
| 15:34 | jonasen | cemerick: is that wrong? |
| 15:34 | yogthos | nDuff: that sounds like a bad thing :P |
| 15:34 | nDuff | I'd look into Derby pretty closely if I wanted a JVM-native embedded database right now. |
| 15:34 | cemerick | jonasen: insofar as you want to be capturing output as well as input, no |
| 15:34 | yogthos | nDuff: so sounds like derby would be the winner, and I should probably just cut h2 and sqlite from the list |
| 15:34 | nDuff | SQLite is my goto for that niche in the general case, but I haven't used it from the JVM, so warnings about the quality about the JDBC driver are apropos |
| 15:35 | cemerick | jonasen: If you only cared about e.g. :code, then you wouldn't have to touch the transport |
| 15:35 | nDuff | s/quality about the/quality of the/ |
| 15:35 | yogthos | nDuff: I haven't found any issues using sqlite with jdbc, but there seems to be a negative cloud around it here :P |
| 15:35 | cemerick | tcrawley: how is data going from stage to stage between nodes? pr/read, java serialization, or other? |
| 15:35 | yogthos | granted I haven't done anything interesting with it beyond just seeing that it works |
| 15:36 | tcrawley | cemerick: it's using pr/read, yeah. in the docs there's a paragraph about making sure your data is serializable in that fashion |
| 15:36 | jonasen | cemerick: ok |
| 15:36 | UberNerdGirl | jamii: :P |
| 15:36 | cemerick | tcrawley: sorry, I only got far enough to know where to file it mentally for later :-/ |
| 15:37 | tcrawley | cemerick: no worries, I wasn't saying RTFM :) |
| 15:37 | jcrossley3 | yogthos: i would never use sqlite for anything other than colocated, single-user access. i've not used derby, though i've heard good things about it. i like h2 because its in-memory store is xa-compatible which i need for testing. i probably wouldn't use any of the three in a production app. :) |
| 15:37 | technomancy | yogthos: feel free to peruse the clojars issue tracker if you want background on that particular trail of tears |
| 15:37 | UberNerdGirl | jamii: hello stranger :P |
| 15:37 | yogthos | technomancy: haha |
| 15:37 | jonasen | cemerick: next, I'll make a datomic backend so you can query your repl history :) |
| 15:38 | cemerick | jonasen: you should talk to kovas; that's his bag w/ session |
| 15:38 | yogthos | jcrossley3: so sounds like cutting sqlite and leaving h2/derby is probably reasonable then? |
| 15:39 | jcrossley3 | yogthos: yes |
| 15:39 | jonasen | cemerick: I've worked with kovas on session lately.. that's where I got the idea from. |
| 15:39 | cemerick | ah-ha, nm then :-D |
| 15:47 | TimMc | Hmm, I should check how hard it would be to use Derby from Python. :-P |
| 16:00 | CoverSlide | isn't hsqldb kind of the new derby? |
| 16:01 | CoverSlide | or h2? |
| 16:05 | jcrossley3 | CoverSlide: h2 was a rewrite of Hypersonic, which was renamed HSQLDB, and also has a version 2. hope that helps. :) |
| 16:06 | CoverSlide | yeah i know |
| 16:06 | CoverSlide | oh they mentioned h2 |
| 16:07 | CoverSlide | sorry just reading the previous conversation |
| 16:08 | Bronsa | http://i.imgur.com/GNLQ4.png is this expected behaviour? |
| 16:09 | TimMc | Looks a bug, |
| 16:10 | amalloy | posting a screenshot of text into irc? no, not expected behavior |
| 16:10 | TimMc | Why'd you post it as a screenshot? |
| 16:10 | TimMc | heh |
| 16:10 | Bronsa | because i don't want to flood |
| 16:10 | Bronsa | and I'm too lazy to use a nopaste. |
| 16:10 | amalloy | imgur looks like ten times as much work as gist or refheap |
| 16:10 | amalloy | but whatever |
| 16:10 | TimMc | You have a special app for screenshots? |
| 16:10 | Bronsa | i have a command line command, yes |
| 16:11 | bbloom | Bronsa: but now we can't copy paste into our repl to verify |
| 16:11 | Bronsa | fair enough |
| 16:11 | TimMc | amalloy: Luckily, I have an ascii-art image renderer in Lynx, and if I align it *just* right... |
| 16:11 | TimMc | (I wish.) |
| 16:12 | Bronsa | http://sprunge.us/JYcB |
| 16:12 | clojurebot | dakrone maintains clj-http |
| 16:13 | amalloy | anyway, i imagine the ^:const causes the compiler to replace the bar symbol with a vector that has compile-time metadata, rather than runtime metadata |
| 16:13 | amalloy | but this is an area i always get wrong, so take that with a grain of salt |
| 16:14 | Bronsa | no, it seems like metadata gets simply ignored |
| 16:14 | Bronsa | https://github.com/Bronsa/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L6784-L6785 |
| 16:14 | bbloom | Bronsa: only when :const ? what about if :dynamic ? |
| 16:14 | Bronsa | it might as well be expected behaviour |
| 16:15 | bbloom | doesn't seem like that should be expected |
| 16:16 | amalloy | Bronsa: your link doesn't support your assertion at all as far as i can tell |
| 16:19 | Bronsa | amalloy: it goes through analyzeSeq that finds out the first element is QUOTE |
| 16:19 | Bronsa | parsing the expression as a ConstantExpr |
| 16:19 | Bronsa | that AFAIK ignores metadata |
| 16:19 | amalloy | so? (quote ^:foo []) can have metadata |
| 16:20 | amalloy | &(meta (quote ^:foo [1 2 3])) |
| 16:20 | lazybot | ⇒ {:foo true} |
| 16:20 | Bronsa | i see |
| 16:33 | Bronsa | oh wait |
| 16:33 | Bronsa | the metadata is there |
| 16:33 | Bronsa | user=> (meta (.getRawRoot #'foo)) |
| 16:33 | Bronsa | {:foo true} |
| 16:33 | TimMc | whaat |
| 16:37 | Bronsa | weird |
| 16:37 | Bronsa | http://sprunge.us/SUFf |
| 16:47 | iamedu | Hi! sorry to bother... I am a programmer... who is very interested in functional programming, in particular clojure... I'm reading a book to learn, but I thing in order to truly learn I think I need a little guidance, and maybe a project.. so I'd like to know.. if there's anyone here that could give me a project and perhaps advice... Thank you very much! |
| 16:47 | brehaut | iamedu: 4clojure.com |
| 16:48 | brehaut | not a project per se |
| 16:48 | devn | iamedu: Use the REPL a lot. It's a fast feedback loop. |
| 16:48 | brehaut | but you'll learn heaps |
| 16:49 | iamedu | Interesting I'll give it a try! |
| 16:49 | nDuff | ...an environment which makes the REPL easy-to-use is worthwhile also. |
| 16:50 | iamedu | nDuff: what do you recommend/ |
| 16:50 | iamedu | ? |
| 16:50 | nDuff | If you're looking for a playground/sandbox beyond 4clojure, there's Light Table; if you're willing to invest in climbing a learning curve, emacs+nrepl.el is the gold standard. |
| 16:50 | nDuff | (Personally, I use Emacs Live) |
| 16:51 | iamedu | Thanks, I think I should learn emacs anyway |
| 16:52 | amalloy | i wouldn't recommend light table yet, really. last i heard about it was someone trying to learn clojure getting tripped by some bug in the current pre-alpha |
| 16:52 | brehaut | iamedu: thats like learning to pilot a space shuttle to go get milk from the shop |
| 16:52 | amalloy | just use any kind of repl. tryclojure is super-easy to use |
| 16:52 | brehaut | (iamedu the emacs bit) |
| 16:53 | TimMc | brehaut: I wonder how the learning curves compare. |
| 16:54 | brehaut | haha |
| 16:54 | mae | hi, to create a voltdb procedure i need to create a declared field which is non-private via gen-class, is this possible? here is the line of code responsible in voltdb for populating sql query information, basically i need some fields to show up in the java reflection api. |
| 16:55 | mae | https://github.com/VoltDB/voltdb/blob/voltdb-2.8.4.1/src/frontend/org/voltdb/compiler/ProcedureCompiler.java#L81 |
| 16:55 | iamedu | ok.. so small steps I think I'll start with tryclojure and 4clojure for now... |
| 16:55 | TimMc | mae: Wow, that looks like a complete pain. |
| 16:56 | mae | TimMc: yep, i'm like this | | close from patching voltdb for an 'alternate' way of providing the info |
| 16:56 | TimMc | Oh god, it's even calling setAccessible. |
| 16:57 | mae | i was hoping some gen-class wizard in here |
| 16:57 | mae | could provide me with some magic spells |
| 16:57 | mae | or in lisp-speak spels |
| 16:57 | mae | http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html |
| 16:57 | brehaut | pretty sure magic spells are a scheme thing |
| 16:58 | TimMc | gen-class is a big pile of undocumented features. |
| 16:58 | mae | lol sorry forget the lisperati reference, lets focus on the gen-class |
| 16:58 | mae | @TimMc ahh ok so i should read the source for the eh? |
| 16:58 | mae | lol |
| 16:58 | TimMc | mae: This may be one of those times. |
| 16:58 | mae | kk |
| 16:59 | llasram | mae: I'm fairly certain you can't make non-private members with `gen-class` |
| 16:59 | TimMc | At least while you wait and see if anyone in the channel happens to know. |
| 16:59 | llasram | mae: It's been a few months since I went spelunking through it to try to understand everything that could be done |
| 16:59 | llasram | mae: but I'm still pretty confident on that one |
| 17:00 | mae | i knew there had to be a good reason no one has any examples of this on the net |
| 17:00 | mae | A NEW FRONTIER! |
| 17:01 | llasram | Oh right, the `state` member will be public |
| 17:01 | TimMc | mae: As a fallback, you can write a .java file and put it on your project's java-source-path(s). |
| 17:02 | mae | indeed |
| 17:02 | mae | i was thinking i could inherit from VoltProcedure in a .java |
| 17:02 | mae | and somehow create a shim |
| 17:02 | mae | but that seems like it might not work |
| 17:03 | mae | llasram: i tried using state already, it still didn't seem to show up to the voltdb's compiler |
| 17:04 | llasram | And even if it did work, it would be a hideous, hideous hack |
| 17:04 | yogthos | mae: there's a good overview of gen-class on this guy's blog http://kotka.de/blog/2010/02/gen-class_how_it_works_and_how_to_use_it.html |
| 17:04 | mae | llasram: see https://www.refheap.com/paste/8632 |
| 17:06 | llasram | Ok, so wouldn't be all that hideous, if did work |
| 17:09 | gfredericks | I love how the README for clojure.core.cache says to look at the autogenerated API documentation for more details, and it's virtually blank |
| 17:28 | gfredericks | I'm having an awful time trying to figure out how to use core.cache to do something similar to memoize |
| 17:29 | hiredman | immutable caches are weird |
| 17:30 | Apage43 | gfredericks: I just used core.memoize |
| 17:30 | hiredman | gfredericks: you make whatever and stick it in an atom |
| 17:30 | Apage43 | https://github.com/clojure/core.memoize |
| 17:30 | hiredman | I think sticking it in an atom is what core.memoize does |
| 17:31 | gfredericks | Apage43: maybe my problem was not realizing that was a separate thing |
| 17:31 | gfredericks | Apage43: hiredman: thanks :) |
| 17:32 | Apage43 | also hiredman is correct about the atom-sticking https://github.com/clojure/core.memoize/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/memoize.clj#L125 |
| 17:34 | arohner | I'm trying to used typed-clojure, and I'm getting exceptions in the analyzer |
| 17:34 | tomoj | bbloom: what is dispatch-map for? |
| 17:34 | arohner | foo already refers to: #'the.ns/foo in namespace: user |
| 17:34 | tomoj | oh, I didn't notice the blog post yet |
| 17:34 | arohner | seems like the analyzer has a problem with (:require [foo :refer (bar)]). Is that a known issue? |
| 17:35 | loganlinn | There isn't a Compojure equivalent of Rails' `rake routes`, is there? |
| 17:35 | nDuff | loganlinn: What does that do? |
| 17:35 | loganlinn | outputs all registered routes |
| 17:35 | loganlinn | on command line |
| 17:36 | brehaut | loganlinn: i dont think you could feasibly do that in compojure. routes just builds a handler function; they are opaque |
| 17:36 | loganlinn | nDuff: http://guides.rubyonrails.org/routing.html#inspecting-and-testing-routes |
| 17:36 | weavejester | We probably need something more restrictive, but also more transparent than Compojure. |
| 17:36 | nDuff | loganlinn: I ask principally to make the point that you were underspecifying. |
| 17:36 | nDuff | s/ask/asked. |
| 17:37 | technomancy | loganlinn: it's usually pretty easy to see all the routes just by hitting "navigate-to-source" on your app |
| 17:37 | technomancy | you can jump around to all the nested definitions easily if your editor is set up for it |
| 17:37 | nDuff | loganlinn: ...many of us come from route-enabled web frameworks other than rails. |
| 17:38 | loganlinn | yeah, im not really a rails user anyway, I was just curious because I thought it was useful when building a rest api |
| 17:38 | loganlinn | especially when things are nested within contexts |
| 17:46 | technomancy | weavejester: compojure.core/routes could certainly attach metadata to the handler function it generates |
| 17:46 | technomancy | problem is you can't look deeper into nested handlers |
| 17:46 | technomancy | well you could with a macro that would walk the body, but that's sketchy |
| 17:47 | hiredman | sounds like you need executable maps |
| 17:47 | weavejester | technomancy: Yeah, those were my thoughts too. You might quickly come across instances where it doesn't work. |
| 17:47 | hiredman | ZING! |
| 17:47 | technomancy | hiredman: you mean like cljs source maps? |
| 17:47 | weavejester | My thought it to make a more restrictive library that routes off a data structure. |
| 17:48 | weavejester | Sometimes you might need to drop back down to Compojure |
| 17:49 | weavejester | But a lot of the time a static routing map would do |
| 17:49 | yogthos | making the common case easy is always good :) |
| 17:50 | technomancy | weavejester: I dunno; that sounds a bit like the situation with scheme macros where now you have to understand two separate systems because the simpler one isn't powerful enough. |
| 17:50 | weavejester | technomancy: Well, there is that... |
| 17:50 | technomancy | maybe there would be benefits to it, but just being able to programmatically list all routes doesn't seem compelling enough to introduce a new top-level concept |
| 17:51 | weavejester | Maybe if you make your web apps small enough, it doesn't really matter. |
| 17:51 | technomancy | s/benefits/more benefits/ |
| 17:51 | technomancy | I'm a strong believer in the power of M-. |
| 17:51 | brehaut | technomancy: the bigger benefit is that you'd be able to implement route reversal (ie, given a route name, and some args, produce the url to get there) |
| 17:52 | technomancy | brehaut: hm; maybe so |
| 17:52 | technomancy | by "a route name" you really mean a handler? |
| 17:52 | brehaut | although im not sure that is a benefit yet. its certainly something that people with django experience expect |
| 17:52 | technomancy | or a defroutes var? |
| 17:52 | brehaut | technomancy: yeah either a handler or a literal name |
| 17:52 | loganlinn | when routes are nested, maybe said metadata could be modified to include the new prefix? just an idea. but you're right, I don't think there's a strong enough use-case other than transparency/debugging |
| 17:52 | weavejester | Route reversal is really only useful if you want to change your URLs as far as I can see. |
| 17:52 | hiredman | and according to the w3c, cool urls never change |
| 17:53 | weavejester | loganlinn: The nested route would need to gather up the metadata of its children. |
| 17:54 | technomancy | the context macro might complicate it further too |
| 17:54 | brehaut | weavejester: django users like it because it handles 'include'ing apps routes within a master route and not making the app hardcode the path |
| 17:54 | technomancy | I need to start using that |
| 17:54 | yogthos | I'm still of the opinion that dsl with good naming allows thinking in terms of the problem domain better :) |
| 17:55 | brehaut | weavejester: however, the value of django's apps is marginal |
| 17:55 | brehaut | i <3 'context |
| 17:55 | yogthos | even in clojure core we see a lot of that, for example all defn is (fn [params* ] exprs*)) |
| 17:55 | yogthos | err (def name (fn [params* ] exprs*)) |
| 17:56 | yogthos | it's a small difference, but important in my opinion |
| 17:57 | weavejester | I think context could be faster in some cases... |
| 17:57 | weavejester | Certainly in the case where there are zero parameters |
| 17:58 | weavejester | Although I'd need to check hotspot doesn't already optimise it. |
| 17:58 | technomancy | measure twice; cut once |
| 17:58 | brehaut | yogthos: im weary of things that improve the easy case in exchange for making the hard case harder though |
| 17:58 | yogthos | brehaut: it's always a balance :) |
| 17:58 | tmciver | weavejester: speaking of context, is one supposed to use hiccup.middleware/wrap-base-url when creating a war via 'lein ring uberwar'? I ran into this problem yesterday and using that middleware was the solution I found. |
| 17:59 | weavejester | tmciver: If you're using Hiccup then it's useful when deploying to a subdirectory. |
| 18:02 | tmciver | weavejester: isn't using context necessary if the app is not at the server root? |
| 18:03 | weavejester | tmciver: What do you mean? context the macro? :context the keyword? |
| 18:05 | tmciver | I'm not actually sure. :/ This is the first time I've deployed a clojure web app to an app server. The problem I had initially was that links on pages were with respect to localhost:8080 rather than localhost:8080/my-app |
| 18:06 | tmciver | Usign wrap-base-url solved the problem. Should I be doing something more sensible? |
| 18:07 | weavejester | tmciver: No, wrap-base-url is a good solution if you're using Hiccup and expect to deploy to a subpath. That's what it's for. |
| 18:07 | weavejester | tmciver: But if you're using some other system you need to use another solution; links don't automatically change. |
| 18:07 | yogthos | this sort of thing is precisely the motivation for luminus :) |
| 18:08 | tmciver | weavejester: my feeling is that the behavior that wrap-base-url provides is the typical, desired behavior, no? |
| 18:08 | tmciver | Do most people deploy to the server root? I.e., it's the only app on the server? |
| 18:10 | tmciver | I expect to have several clojure web apps running within the same instance of tomcat, in which case they'll all need this behavior. |
| 18:10 | weavejester | tmciver: It depends how you're deploying it. Servlet containers like Tomcat or Jetty tend to have a URL scheme like example.com/app |
| 18:11 | tmciver | weavejester: Yes, where app is the name of the war, correct? |
| 18:11 | weavejester | Yep |
| 18:11 | yogthos | tmciver: so each app will have a :context key in the request in that scenario |
| 18:11 | weavejester | But if you're say, deploying your app as a standalone app behind nginx, you might have your app running on app.example.com |
| 18:12 | tmciver | weavejester: Initially, I was able to navigate to the start page of my app but all the links did not include the 'app' part and so they failed. |
| 18:12 | weavejester | Cloud deployments, such as to Heroku and AWS beanstalk, also tend to take a app.example.com approach. |
| 18:12 | yogthos | the real path to the app is :context + :uri |
| 18:12 | weavejester | yogthos: No! |
| 18:12 | weavejester | yogthos: The :uri is *always* the URI |
| 18:13 | yogthos | weavejester: well if you're on a standalone your context is null right |
| 18:13 | weavejester | yogthos: (str (:context request) (:path-info request)) == (:uri request) |
| 18:13 | yogthos | weavejester: ah ok |
| 18:14 | weavejester | tmciver: Links don't automatically change to adhere to the context unless you use something to change them. |
| 18:15 | tmciver | weavejester: something like use wrap-base-url. |
| 18:16 | tmciver | I guess this is what I'm really trying to figure out. It seems to me that you would *always* need to use wrap-base-url. |
| 18:16 | yogthos | I guess wrap-base-url is hiccup specific right? |
| 18:16 | yogthos | so if you used something like enlive it would have to provide its own wrapper right? |
| 18:17 | weavejester | Yes, wrap-base-url is Hiccup specific, and useful if you're deploying to Tomcat or something that uses subpaths |
| 18:17 | weavejester | That way you don't have to write your own function to generate the right URLs. |
| 18:17 | weavejester | But you don't need it if you're deploying to a subdomain, for instance. |
| 18:17 | tmciver | weavejester: OK, true. |
| 18:18 | yogthos | oh yeah is there any cleaner way to handle context from ajax aside from hidden fields on the page? |
| 18:18 | weavejester | yogthos: In what way? You can store the data as a variable in Javascript. |
| 18:19 | yogthos | weavejester: contexts really do introduce a lot of gotchas |
| 18:19 | tmciver | weavejester: so if one does not use hiccup and wishes to use tomcat (with subpaths), then they'd have to write their own wrap-base-url like middleware? |
| 18:20 | weavejester | tmciver: Right |
| 18:20 | weavejester | tmciver: For instance, you could write some middleware to add the context to a binding |
| 18:21 | weavejester | (defn wrap-context [handler] (fn [request] (binding [*context* (:context request)] (handler request))) |
| 18:21 | weavejester | And then you could write your URLs as (str *context* "/normal/path") |
| 18:21 | tmciver | weavejester: I seem to recall reading yesterday that mmcgrana wanted to 'try out' the :context, :path-info stuff before putting it into ring-proper? |
| 18:22 | weavejester | tmciver: That was years ago, and it's been tried out in Compojure and lein-ring. |
| 18:22 | weavejester | Ring 1.2.0 will have :context and :path-info support. It seems a tried-and-tested idea by now. Mark agrees, btw. |
| 18:23 | tmciver | weavejester: then will a wrap-base-url middleware also be a part of ring 1.2.0? Seems it should be. |
| 18:24 | weavejester | tmciver: No, because that's Hiccup-specific. |
| 18:24 | bbloom | tomoj: dispatch-map is for when you want multimethod-like behavior, but don't want top level defmethod statements |
| 18:24 | weavejester | It might be an idea to add middleware to set a *context* binding, but I'm not certain that's necessary yet. |
| 18:25 | bbloom | tomoj: you can, for example, walk some data structure and compose a dispatch-map |
| 18:26 | tmciver | weavejester: it's hiccup-specific because of the use of *base-url* in hiccup.util/with-base-url? |
| 18:26 | bbloom | tomoj: so it's useful anytime you want pluggable dispatch in a dsl type environment |
| 18:28 | sundbp | hi. i'm a bit confused about dynamic vars. example: (binding [*foo* [1 2 3]] (map (fn [x] (prn *foo*)) [1 2 3])) -> prints 1, 1, 1. How come the *foo* in the anonymous function does not inherit the *foo* binding it's defined within? |
| 18:28 | weavejester | tmciver: Yes. I mean, Ring could have some middleware that sets a *context* macro, but as far as I'm aware, no other templating system handles this. |
| 18:28 | hiredman | ~map |
| 18:28 | clojurebot | map is *LAZY* |
| 18:28 | sundbp | sorry, i started with: (def ^:dynamic *foo* 1) |
| 18:28 | amalloy | hah |
| 18:29 | weavejester | I mean *context* binding (s/macro/binding/) |
| 18:29 | dnolen | sundbp: laziness and binding don't really work well together. |
| 18:29 | amalloy | sundbp: hiredman's point is that map instantly returns a lazyseq, without evaluating the function at all. then the binding pops, and then your repl realizes the seq in order to print it; at that time, there is no binding |
| 18:29 | dnolen | sundbp: you want a (doall ...) around that map. |
| 18:29 | sundbp | dnolen: right - so i need to (doall) got it |
| 18:29 | sundbp | dnolen: ah - there you said it. thanks |
| 18:30 | sundbp | dnolen: works as expected - thanks! |
| 18:30 | hiredman | dnolen: didn't you have some example code using core.logic for parsing? |
| 18:31 | tmciver | weavejester: OK, I think I'm getting it. Seems like this is pretty yucky when deploying to an app server like tomcat (if you're not using hiccup). |
| 18:31 | weavejester | tmciver: Well, it's not as if it requires more than four or five lines of code to fix. |
| 18:33 | weavejester | tmciver: And all frameworks have the same problem. You need to wrap your URLs in something to get the right context path. |
| 18:33 | tmciver | weavejester: but as you said above, in the general case you'd have to have your own wrap-context handler and make sure you used that context when writing all your urls. |
| 18:34 | weavejester | tmciver: Yes, but that's no different to any other system. You need some way of determining whether to rewrite a URL or not. In Ruby on Rails, for instance, I believe you need to use the "url_for" function. |
| 18:35 | weavejester | MVC.NET takes the approach of rewriting any URL that begins with a "~/", but that approach has its flaws. |
| 18:35 | weavejester | Hiccup rewrites any URI object to have the right prefix, but leaves raw strings alone. |
| 18:36 | weavejester | At some point you have to have something to denote that you want this URL to change depending on whether you're running from development or production |
| 18:36 | weavejester | Or else make sure development and production have the same root. |
| 18:37 | tmciver | weavejester: yes, OK. |
| 18:38 | tmciver | weavejester: I guess you have to know way ahead of time if the app is going to be rooted at a sub-path; to change the app to be rooted at a sub-path after writing it assuming it wouldn't be would be a real pain. |
| 18:39 | weavejester | I wouldn't say it was hugely difficult to change it |
| 18:54 | arohner | is analyze.core supposed to handle (:require '[foo.core :refer (bar])? It's failing hard for me |
| 19:00 | arohner | TimMc: ha, thanks, but that's not my problem |
| 19:01 | arohner | the analyzer is breaking when seeing (bar) in the ns to be analyzed |
| 19:01 | TimMc | No problem, paredit gives these to me for free. |
| 19:01 | arohner | as if it's not resolving in the correct ns |
| 19:02 | amalloy | arohner: that's not a valid ns clause |
| 19:02 | amalloy | the ' there makes the whole thing a mess |
| 19:03 | arohner | fine. (:require [foo.core :refer (bar)]) |
| 19:03 | arohner | analyze still has a problem with that :-p |
| 19:04 | arohner | looks like Compiler$analyze calls resolve(), which calls resolveIn(currentNS()...) |
| 19:05 | arohner | and I don't see a place where analyze.core binds *ns* |
| 19:08 | hiredman | arohner: becuase it is hard to find an environment where it is not bound |
| 19:08 | hiredman | all the repls bind it |
| 19:09 | arohner | hiredman: yes, but the problem is that when trying to analyze 'the.ns, it's calling resolveIn('user) rather than resolveIn('the.ns) |
| 19:09 | arohner | because currentNS wasn't rebound |
| 19:09 | arohner | or rather, *ns* |
| 19:09 | hiredman | I doubt that |
| 19:10 | arohner | fine. I have a working repro that disagrees with you |
| 19:11 | wei_ | what's a good way to include scala classes compiled with sbt in clojure? |
| 19:12 | amalloy | hiredman: analzye is probably rolling its own compilation based on churning through files and read/eval each form. ie, there's probably no repl setting *ns*. but, i imagine it would have many more errors than just arohner's, if it had forgotten to set that itself |
| 19:12 | technomancy | wei_: get it into a maven repo |
| 19:12 | arohner | I will have a gist in a minute |
| 19:15 | wei_ | technomancy: since it's a proprietary library, it should be a local rep. can you vouch for the localrepo plugin? https://github.com/kumarshantanu/lein-localrepo |
| 19:16 | technomancy | wei_: yeah, that'd work fine. another alternative is an HTTPS repo or private S3 bucket |
| 19:16 | technomancy | those are better for teams but a bit more work |
| 19:16 | wei_ | i see, thanks |
| 19:16 | technomancy | I strongly recommend just OSSing all your libraries; saves a lot of time =) |
| 19:17 | wei_ | tell that to my contractee :) |
| 19:17 | technomancy | sure; is he on IRC? =) |
| 19:17 | wei_ | i would love that as well, since you guys would be able to review my code |
| 19:18 | technomancy | not the scala bits, sorry =P |
| 19:19 | wei_ | i may invite him on shortly. i was hired to potentially introduce clojure to the team.. so wish me luck! |
| 19:19 | technomancy | cool! |
| 19:19 | technomancy | you can also significantly reduce your GitHub bill by OSSing all your libs |
| 19:20 | arohner | https://gist.github.com/4534779 |
| 19:20 | wei_ | oh yeah, definitely |
| 19:20 | technomancy | (this has been protips with technomancy; tune in next time to hear technomancy telling you not to bother with a database and just stick with in-memory atoms) |
| 19:21 | wei_ | no plug for datomic? |
| 19:21 | technomancy | that'd be a bit of a double standard, innit? |
| 19:21 | technomancy | "all your libs should be OSS, except the ones you pull in for this proprietary DB thingy" |
| 19:25 | wei_ | for end-to-end testing purposes, I'd like to trigger javascript events using clojurescript and check for changes on the backend using clojure. is this possible? |
| 19:31 | bbloom | wei_: it's possible, but it probably isn't easy |
| 19:35 | wei_ | seems possible to me as well, but I'm not sure where to start. cemerick: I heard you have done some work on this. is that online somewhere? |
| 19:39 | bbloom | cemerick: who are you talking to? |
| 19:39 | bbloom | oh he left |
| 19:50 | frozenlock | Someone once gave me a link to a video explaining defmethod, deftype, defprotocol... The first examples were about smaps of shapes (triangle, square, circle). Unfortunately I formatted and lost the link. Anybody has it available? I would really appreciate :) |
| 19:50 | bbloom | frozenlock: don't have a link, but have you tried the keyword phrase "solving the expression problem with clojure" ? i think that might have been it |
| 19:53 | frozenlock | Hmm that gives me a talk by chouser. Not what I was looking for, but I'll gladly watch it, thanks :) |
| 20:13 | hadronzoo | How can one discover the protocols implemented by a given Clojure data type, like a PersistentList? |
| 20:15 | TimMc | Oh, awesome! Clojars exposes an rsync daemon. |
| 20:21 | brainproxy | tyyyyyyy6 |
| 20:22 | bbloom | i forget how much it sucks working with java types that don't have sane string representations |
| 20:43 | frozenlock | I found the video I was searching, if anyone is interested :http://vimeo.com/53223938 (polymorphism in clojure) |
| 20:46 | frozenlock | #clojure really is quiet for a weekday. Is there a special holiday I should know about? |
| 20:46 | technomancy | I'm assuming everyone's busy testing the Leiningen release candidate |
| 20:47 | frozenlock | technomancy: Of course, silly me. |
| 20:47 | cemerick | wei_: yes, I've done some work in that direction, but nothing to publicize yet |
| 20:47 | TimMc | aka Leiningen Release Candidate Testing Day, a mandatory federal holiday |
| 20:47 | TimMc | (in all countries) |
| 21:02 | djwonk | technomancy: I would be testing but I don't want to REPLicate what other people are doing |
| 21:07 | mthvedt | given a symbol 'bar and some namespace foo.core, is there a clojure function that yields 'foo.core/bar |
| 21:11 | dmac | mthvedt: the symbol function will do that |
| 21:11 | amalloy | well, sorta |
| 21:11 | devn | 中国人的需求Clojure的书籍阅读。 |
| 21:12 | amalloy | absurdly, the two-arity body of symbol requires both arguments to be strings - it won't take symbols |
| 21:13 | bbloom | amalloy: that drives me nuts, especially considering ##(symbol 'foo) works fine |
| 21:13 | lazybot | ⇒ foo |
| 21:14 | mthvedt | thanks |
| 21:31 | therealadam | so I wanted to play with algo.monads, but I can't figure out how one gets a repl with that library loaded |
| 21:31 | therealadam | is the easiest way to create a one-off lein project and add a dep? |
| 21:31 | amalloy | yes |
| 21:32 | amalloy | to do anything with clojure, step 1 is a lein project (step 0 being to identify what you want to do) |
| 21:33 | frozenlock | Isn't there something written by cemerick to load libraries on-the-fly? (In case one doesn't want to one-off lein project) |
| 21:33 | amalloy | yes, pomegranate does a reasonable job of it. but i really can't imagine having such an aversion to creating a few files on disk |
| 21:34 | therealadam | amalloy: cool. so how do I figure out the way to specify a contrib library as a dep? |
| 21:34 | therealadam | I cloned the algo.monad repo and....can't figure out how it builds |
| 21:34 | amalloy | don't build it |
| 21:34 | amalloy | (or clone it) |
| 21:34 | therealadam | yeah :) |
| 21:35 | amalloy | $latest org.clojure/algo.monads |
| 21:35 | lazybot | No project by this name exists on clojars. |
| 21:35 | amalloy | ugh |
| 21:35 | technomancy | therealadam: heya |
| 21:35 | therealadam | technomancy: eyah |
| 21:35 | technomancy | no one's written up some good tooling around doing that via pomegranate yet, so you should probably just do `lein new scratch` |
| 21:36 | amalloy | therealadam: your project.clj wants to include [org.clojure/algo.monads "0.1.2"] probably |
| 21:36 | amalloy | i'm off though, so if that doesn't work then bug someone else |
| 21:37 | therealadam | yeah, looks like maven can't find that dep |
| 21:38 | therealadam | thanks amalloy_! |
| 21:38 | frozenlock | therealadam: Maven or Lein? |
| 21:39 | frozenlock | Once you have added a dependency in your project file, you should save it and call 'lein deps' on the shell. This will download the jar. |
| 21:40 | frozenlock | (unless the new Leiningen does something magical) |
| 21:40 | therealadam | top of stack race is a maven stack frame |
| 21:42 | frozenlock | org.clojure/algo.monads doesn't show up in my clojars search... perhaps you could try [org.clojars.mccraigmccraig/algo.monads "0.1.3-SNAPSHOT"] ? |
| 21:42 | frozenlock | First time getting a REPL up and running is a bitch :) |
| 21:43 | jgerman | is there an option to leiningen to get it to give more verbose output? I saw a reference to a DEBUG env variable but not what it's supposed to be set to |
| 21:44 | therealadam | awesome, that worked |
| 21:44 | therealadam | thanks frozenlock |
| 21:44 | frozenlock | np :) |
| 21:44 | therealadam | technomancy: also, thanks for leiningen. as you may be aware, it is orders of magnitude less rage-inducing than sbt. |
| 21:44 | frozenlock | therealadam: btw, what are you using as a repl interface? |
| 21:46 | frozenlock | I would have rage quitted the first time I tried clojure weren't it for Leiningen. |
| 21:46 | frozenlock | Well I did, but I came back the next day :p |
| 21:46 | therealadam | `lein repl` or `lein vimclojure :repl true` |
| 21:46 | frozenlock | Oh, Vim user... |
| 21:49 | frozenlock | Yeah.. I'm not really honest with myself on this anyway, I've never tried Vim. |
| 21:50 | therealadam | it's a thing |
| 21:52 | darrickw | Hey, I've run into an odd problem with Clojure initialization (I think) from a JRuby app, wondering if anyone here might be able to help. |
| 21:55 | darrickw | I googled it and someone said they solved it by " calling clojure.main once before using clojure.lang.Compiler.load(commands)." but that makes no sense to me... |
| 21:55 | darrickw | It's at https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/datomic/walERveqEuo |
| 22:00 | bpr | what branch does nrepl.el want to receive pull-requests on? |
| 22:01 | brehaut | darrickw: i was under the impression that you want to use clojure.lang.RT (https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java) |
| 22:02 | brehaut | darrickw: probably RT.var and RT.invoke |
| 22:03 | technomancy | therealadam: glad it's working for you =) |
| 22:03 | darrickw | brehaut: I'm doing the following 2 lines: |
| 22:03 | darrickw | String str = "(ns g (:require mcfly.graph))"; |
| 22:03 | darrickw | Compiler.load(new StringReader(str)); |
| 22:04 | brehaut | darrickw: you are trying to muck about with the compiler directly, rather than using the runtime |
| 22:04 | technomancy | therealadam: if you haven't sunk much time into vimclojure yet I'd recommend taking a look at the foreplay lib |
| 22:04 | technomancy | supposedly a lot more solid repl interaction for vim |
| 22:05 | therealadam | I've heard good things. Right now vimclojure is fine for tinkering, but I'm going to try foreplay if I find the need to tear that part of my config down. |
| 22:05 | brehaut | darrickw: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L331-L333 |
| 22:06 | brehaut | darrickw: there are (turns out) functions on RT for loading scripts etc |
| 22:06 | brehaut | darrickw: and to compile files |
| 22:07 | darrickw | I am using RT.var everywhere, but how do I get it to 'require my namespace? |
| 22:09 | hiredman | RT.var("clojure.core", "require").invoke(Symbol.intern(null, "my.ns")); or something |
| 22:09 | brehaut | (.invoke (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "require") (.invoke (clojure.lang.RT/var "clojure.core" "symbol") "clojure.set")) |
| 22:09 | brehaut | oh. hiredman has a smarter way to get a symbol |
| 22:09 | darrickw | oh yeah, that *does* make sense... :) |
| 22:09 | hiredman | meh |
| 22:09 | hiredman | I like brehaut's |
| 22:10 | hiredman | having a symbol creating method in RT would be nice |
| 22:10 | brehaut | darrickw: you can obviously grab hold of symbol and require as class statics |
| 22:10 | darrickw | I'm going to give this a try right now... |
| 22:11 | brehaut | there was a nice mini presentation somewhere by rhickey that showed how they do this with the datomic API |
| 22:11 | brehaut | if only datomic were OSS |
| 22:11 | egghead | ya brehaut |
| 22:11 | egghead | http://skillsmatter.com/podcast/scala/impromptu-rich-hickey-lightning-talk |
| 22:11 | brehaut | thats the one, thanks egghead |
| 22:11 | darrickw | That's what I was going off of, but I don't recall him going into great detail... |
| 22:13 | darrickw | Ok, thanks, that worked! |
| 22:15 | darrickw | oh, interesting, he's doing "private static final Var EVERYTHING = RT.var(...)" |
| 22:22 | frozenlock | Is it possible to have multiple client connected to the same repl? |
| 23:07 | tomoj | if a paper says "requires rank 2 polymorphism" or "requires rank 3 polymorphism", should one pretty much give up hope porting the ideas to clojure? :( |
| 23:09 | echo-area | Is `iterate' supposed to turn an iteration with side-effect into a side-effect free one? |
| 23:10 | echo-area | To turn an imperative iteration into a functional one, I mean |
| 23:11 | TimMc | frozenlock: I believe nrepl is designed to support that... |
| 23:11 | TimMc | More commonly, you run a REPL under screen or tmux. :-) |
| 23:14 | TimMc | echo-area: Not exactly, no. |
| 23:16 | TimMc | echo-area: That's one way you can use it, though. |
| 23:17 | TimMc | I usually think of imperative loops as having multiple state variables, and iterate isn't quite as convenient under those circumstances. |
| 23:18 | echo-area | What do you do in such circumstances? |
| 23:21 | TimMc | loop/recur |
| 23:23 | TimMc | Recall that iterate gives you a series of intermediate values -- it doesn't have any notion of when to stop. |
| 23:23 | TimMc | If you know that you're going to iterate a set numbre of times, that's al well and good. Otherwise, you'll need take-while or whatever it's called. |
| 23:32 | DigitalJack | I just realized there is going to be a clojure conference where I live! (clojure/west) That is awesome! |
| 23:38 | echo-area | TimMc: Writing in this context functionally makes the function itself longer and harder to understand |
| 23:39 | echo-area | So maybe I should not commit to functional style everywhere |
| 23:39 | echo-area | Always choose the one simpler is the idea. |
| 23:39 | TimMc | If you have multiple state variables, loop/recur is pretty nice. |
| 23:39 | TimMc | It's imperative style, but you can embed it in a functional context. |
| 23:41 | echo-area | Yeah. Restricting to functional style here only makes it a bit complex |
