#clojure – 2012-12-18

2012-12-18

00:15	amalloy	ldh: reloading a defrecord won't modify the behavior of existing instances
00:17	ldh	amalloy: i think that was indeed the issue. passing the instance into the invocation of the protocol function had me turned around a bit, but i think i get it now
01:14	TEttinger	got kinda an odd question... I'm trying to find the exact probability of certain results coming up when rolling "special" dice (a game I play on the tabletop uses specially-marked dice with no numbers, just symbols with rhyme or reason to how many symbols are on each die).
01:14	TEttinger	clojure is my language of choice, so I am trying to solve it in clojure...
01:15	TEttinger	but I am wondering if there is a way to use the for comprehension on a variable number of sequences (determined at runtime)
01:16	TEttinger	like for through 3 8-sided dice, each bound to something temporary in the for
01:16	TEttinger	then for-comprehend through 4 8 sided dice and 2 twelve-sided dice
01:17	TEttinger	to get a map of the symbols that came up in each pass through all dice
01:17	TEttinger	(each die is a vector of vectors of symbols)
01:17	TEttinger	someone did a finite-distributions thing for the old clojure.contrib
01:18	TEttinger	not sure how to get it since it doesn't seem to have source...
01:18	TEttinger	maybe it does
01:18	TEttinger	https://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/master/modules/probabilities/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/probabilities/finite_distributions.clj
01:29	cark	TEttinger: maybe use the sequence monad instead ?
01:29	TEttinger	cark, never heard of it
01:31	cark	let me have a look and get back to you
01:35	enamanuel	hola
01:37	cark	TEttinger: have a look at this https://gist.github.com/4325580
01:37	cark	is this what you're looking for at all ?
01:38	TEttinger	cark, looks like it
01:38	TEttinger	thanks
01:39	cark	you can find the monad library here : https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads
02:13	tomoj	":db/cardinality :db.cardinality/ref" hmm
02:16	tomoj	":db/valueType :db.type/many"
02:23	ro_st	haha
02:23	ro_st	late night, or early morning?
02:30	tomoj	likely the later, I don't remember
02:32	brainproxy	anybody using the atmosphere library (websocket, jsonp stuff) with clojure?
03:05	TEttinger	cark: I appear to have shot the garbage collector be making a monad seq with all possibilities for 4 12-sided dice and 4 8-sided dice
03:05	TEttinger	s/be making/by making/
03:07	TEttinger	I get "java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: GC overhead limit exceeded"
03:08	bbloom	TEttinger: google says that's 7.156946e+118
03:08	TEttinger	oh
03:09	TEttinger	well crud.
03:09	TEttinger	guess that's not going to stay in memory
03:09	bbloom	combinatorics: they're big.
03:10	TEttinger	so bbloom, can you figure out a better way to figure out the odds of each specific set of face combinations coming up?
03:10	TEttinger	let me pastebin my code
03:12	mthvedt	how about an fn that adds probability distribution + die -> probability distribution
03:12	mthvedt	and reduce with that
03:15	TEttinger	https://gist.github.com/4326031
03:15	TEttinger	I gotta say, I don't know much, if any, real probability stuff
03:15	TEttinger	^ mthvedt
03:15	TEttinger	so I don't know how I would work with distributions
03:16	bbloom	TEttinger: boom: http://www.khanacademy.org/math/probability
03:17	mthvedt	TEttinger: convolving probability distributions in discrete domains is easy
03:17	mthvedt	for continuous data it's tricky
03:18	TEttinger	it isn't continuous for mine
03:18	mthvedt	but if your stuff is much smaller than memory
03:18	TEttinger	not now
03:18	TEttinger	i mean it isn't right now
03:18	mthvedt	like to add 2d6, take 1d6, map adding 1..6 and sum
03:19	TEttinger	take a look at the gist, I am probably doing something dumb
03:19	TEttinger	https://gist.github.com/4326031 the meat is in analyze-prob
03:20	mthvedt	well, i don't have time to fine tooth comb things but
03:20	mthvedt	there's a lot of repeated code
03:20	TEttinger	the rest is the standard rolling stuff for a few calculations of the same dice
03:20	TEttinger	yes.
03:20	mthvedt	a clojure programmer should never repeat code :)
03:20	TEttinger	i don't really know macros either
03:20	mthvedt	oh, you should
03:20	bbloom	mthvedt: i wouldn't take that particular statement all the way to it's logical conclusion
03:20	bbloom	TEttinger: macros aren't necessary here
03:20	mthvedt	but functional programming itself can eliminate
03:21	TEttinger	and there are frequent changes, but easy enough to just rectangular insert the names
03:21	mthvedt	most code repetition
03:21	bbloom	TEttinger: it looks like you're trying to learn both clojure and statistics at the same time
03:21	TEttinger	yeah I am not trying to code-elegantly. i am trying to make it work
03:21	bbloom	TEttinger: I always find it helps to simplify and try to do fewer things at once
03:21	TEttinger	bbloom, yeah
03:22	bbloom	looks like you got the basics of clojure, but need help with the stdlib
03:22	TEttinger	the task should be fairly simple, but my math isn't great
03:22	bbloom	i recommend grabbing the cheatsheet and then doing some problems at 4clojure.com
03:22	bbloom	~cheatsheet
03:22	clojurebot	Cheatsheets with tooltips can be found at http://jafingerhut.github.com/ .
03:22	bbloom	~4clojure.com
03:22	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
03:22	bbloom	er thanks clojurebot, i guess i didn't really need to ~ a domain already
03:23	bbloom	www.4clojure.com should be clickable :-)
03:23	bbloom	then mozzy on over to kahn academy and brush up on your probability skills
03:23	TEttinger	i've been using clojuredocs a lot
03:23	bbloom	i recommend you follow some top users on 4clojure, so you can see near functions and tricks they use to solve problems more eloquently
03:23	bbloom	then try to put the two things together :-)
03:24	bbloom	s/near/neat
03:24	bbloom	and get that monad out of there!
03:24	TEttinger	sigh...
03:25	TEttinger	make up your minds!
03:25	bbloom	a bunch of folks in this channel are obsessed w/ monads
03:25	TEttinger	should i use the sequence monad or not?????
03:25	bbloom	i dunno, maybe it's useful
03:25	bbloom	but you've still got a lot to learn about the std lib before you start venturing out into experimental monad libraries...
03:26	TEttinger	i think i know a fair bit of the std lib, my problems are on tricky things like doseq
03:27	bbloom	you're code has a ton of opportunities to simplify, cleanup, clarify
03:27	bbloom	your*
03:27	TEttinger	yeah
03:27	TEttinger	I know
03:27	bbloom	i'm not trying to shit on you
03:27	bbloom	i'm trying to help us help you
03:27	bbloom	in order to get good advice here, you need to ask for it in small pieces
03:27	TEttinger	the big thing that I am using is a rectangular insert in jEdit. it lets me edit each block as basically one line of code
03:27	TEttinger	got it
03:27	bbloom	this is a pretty big paste
03:28	TEttinger	the issue is almost entirely with analyze-prob
03:28	TEttinger	the rest is just so you can run it
03:28	TEttinger	since it needs multiple inputs, which I provided via a swing GUI
03:28	wei_	how do people deal with multiple build targets using lein-cljsbuild? I find myself having to add two entries (dev and prod) in my project.clj for each page that I want to have clojurescript in. it works but doesn't seem very DRY e.g. https://gist.github.com/4326069
03:34	Raynes	ggreg: What is a pretty big paste?
03:34	bbloom	wei_: I think that most people using cljs are doing singlepage apps
03:34	Raynes	Ugh
03:34	Raynes	bbloom, not ggreg.
03:35	Raynes	And I found it, so never mind.
03:35	Raynes	Damn it, gist.
03:35	bbloom	Raynes: I never mind you
03:35	Raynes	Damn everyone who doesn't use refheap.
03:35	TEttinger	ok, using https://gist.github.com/4326117
03:35	TEttinger	heh just as you say refheap
03:36	wei_	alright Raynes, next time :)
03:36	wei_	and I guess I could just dry it up with "map"
03:36	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7692 Fixed it for you, TEttinger
03:37	Raynes	;)
03:38	bbloom	Raynes: maybe you should write a bot that finds gist posts in here and copies them to refheap :-P
03:38	TEttinger	Raynes, forgot to remove seesaw :usage https://www.refheap.com/paste/7693
03:38	bbloom	we'll just stick a EULA in the channel topic: if you write in here, you assign all copyrights to Raynes, even if it's somebody else's post
03:38	Raynes	amalloy_ has suggested that a million times. I figure people would get angry pretty quickly. That might be a fun reason to do it anyways, see how fast people get annoyed.
03:38	Raynes	Hahaha
03:41	TEttinger	protip: don't run that code in the latest refheap paste
03:41	TEttinger	just (use)'ed it in a lein repl
03:41	Raynes	You have some very weird formatting.
03:41	TEttinger	yeah, I don't have an auto-format function in jedit
03:41	Raynes	Yikes, jedit for Clojure? That can't be fun.
03:41	TEttinger	so indents are all over
03:42	bbloom	TEttinger: and some sort of weird block edit fetish
03:42	TEttinger	it starts up faster than eclipse
03:42	TEttinger	heh
03:42	Raynes	Also, you are like the smallest minority in the whole Clojure community.
03:42	TEttinger	yeah
03:42	Raynes	First person I've ever heard of using it. :p
03:42	TEttinger	I use eclipse too
03:42	TEttinger	I contributed some code to CCW a while back
03:43	bbloom	TEttinger: if i were to try to make sense of this code, i'd basically have to rewrite it
03:43	TEttinger	yeah
03:43	Raynes	Haha, I was gonna let emacs reformat the code, but realized I was in Windows when I went looking for it.
03:43	Raynes	I don't have Emacs on this thing.
03:43	nbeloglazov	Hi. I have a performance issue. There is a snippet: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7694 The problem is that clojure works much slower if I use (current-surface) instead of (current-applet). It seems that clojure compiler need to use reflections because (current-surface) can return objects of 2 different types while (current-applet) return object of 1 type and compiler optimizes it.
03:43	nbeloglazov	How can I avoid this without creating 2 sets of functions - one for current-applet and another for current-graphics?
03:43	bbloom	TEttinger: see if you can get all those "reduce +" lines down to a single map transformation
03:44	nbeloglazov	Can protocol help this?
03:44	bbloom	nbeloglazov: try (set! warn-on-reflection true)
03:44	bbloom	you probably need a type-hint
03:45	nbeloglazov	What kind of? And where? In current-surface?
03:45	bbloom	(doc warn-on-reflection)
03:45	clojurebot	"; When set to true, the compiler will emit warnings when reflection is needed to resolve Java method calls or field accesses. Defaults to false."
03:45	bbloom	just set! that to true and run your code
03:45	bbloom	it will tell you whenever reflection occurs in clj code
03:45	nbeloglazov	Ok, I'll try
03:47	TEttinger	bbloom: you mean turn (reduce + (map #(* (count (filter (fn [c] (= :s c)) (flatten %))) (/ (get freqs %) num-rolls )) kf))
03:47	TEttinger	into a function call on some local function?
03:49	bbloom	TEttinger: start there
03:51	TEttinger	i think the big issue with this code is that I am storing all combinations of all dice in memory at once.
03:51	nbeloglazov	bbloom: yes it shows a lot of reflection warnings when I use (current-surface). Still I need to fix it somehow. Type hints won't help as I understand because current-surface can return values of 2 different types.
03:53	bbloom	nbeloglazov: a typehint basically compiles to a cast (afaict)
03:54	bbloom	nbeloglazov: you can typehint at the call site, if you know what type you got
03:54	bbloom	nbeloglazov: or, if the method you need is higher up in the type hierarchy, you can hint with a base type
03:55	debugger98	(def read-data [user-id] (let [sid (shard user-id) entity (symbol (str "shard" sid))] (select entity (where {:id user-id}))))
03:55	debugger98	sorry should be
03:55	debugger98	(def read-data [user-id] (let [sid (shard user-id) entity (symbol (str "shard" sid))] (select entity (where {:id user-id}))))
03:55	debugger98	the entity dones't eval to its real value
03:55	debugger98	select is a macro
03:56	debugger98	how should I make entity eval to its value in this function definition
03:56	debugger98	basically entity is a predefined val in the same file
03:57	debugger98	just need to shard to the right one according to user id at run time
03:59	debugger98	oops, s/def/defn/g
03:59	bbloom	debugger98: that would be your issue.
04:00	debugger98	would be very grateful if someone points out the problem, thanks
04:29	adamvh	When I try to start Leiningen, I get the error message "java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure.lang.Symbol"
04:29	adamvh	Any idea why this might happen?
04:29	clgv	adamvh: sounds pretty weired. whats you environment? do you start "lein repl" outside a project?
04:30	adamvh	Yes, I get that error outside a project
04:30	adamvh	I've been running a script with lein-exec
04:30	adamvh	and it has ceased to work
04:30	adamvh	for reasons unknown
04:30	clgv	do you have a .lein/profiles.clj?
04:31	adamvh	No, I do not
04:31	clgv	leiningen 2 preview 10 right?
04:31	adamvh	I assume it's the most recent one
04:31	clgv	you can check via "lein version"
04:32	adamvh	I get the class not found error when I run lein version
04:34	clgv	and you are sure there is no project.clj in the directory where you do that?
04:34	clgv	then just delete ".lein" and reinstall leiningen
04:36	adamvh	Happens when I try to reinstall leiningen
04:37	adamvh	I get the "Downloading Leiningen now"
04:37	adamvh	and the little status indicator
04:37	adamvh	followed by the class not found error
04:39	clgv	huh? there is something pretty messed up. what did you do before?
04:39	adamvh	Interesting
04:39	adamvh	It appears that the cluster Java was 1.4
04:40	clgv	uff
04:40	borkdude	:-0
04:40	adamvh	now that I have instructed the cluster to use 1.6
04:40	adamvh	things seem to be in order again
04:40	adamvh	It seems they changed the default while I wasn't looking
04:40	clgv	they have legacy software that old running on that cluster? :O
04:40	adamvh	frickin' high performance computing
04:40	adamvh	what a pain
04:41	clgv	I thought I use an outdated version with java 1.6 ;)
04:41	borkdude	what programming language is 25 years old today?
04:41	clgv	well it still has support until next year...
04:41	adamvh	1987...
04:41	adamvh	C++?
04:42	llasram`	Hmm. Perl?
04:42	borkdude	It must be Perl
04:43	borkdude	someone on twitter said: Happy 25th to the "duct tape that holds the Internet together"!
04:44	borkdude	I actually know of only one "web shop" which is Perl based in my environment
04:44	clgv	right it is perl according to wikipedia
04:47	adamvh	Oh thank goodness I got that working. Did not want to re-write that script in something else
04:47	clgv	perl is the language where you can have source code that looks like a hash sum ^^
04:48	Iceland_jack	Oh, perl jokes :)
04:49	borkdude	I saw some generated C# code yesterday in which every name was represented by a guid…
04:49	clgv	borkdude: decompiled? ;)
04:50	borkdude	clgv not even, just generated from some tool
04:51	clgv	ah kk.
05:03	silasdavis	Hello, I'm trying to run a main function with lein run -m messaging.models.message
05:03	silasdavis	but I get: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods"
05:03	silasdavis	the -main function is in a file in the project with (ns messaging.models.message) at the top
05:04	silasdavis	can anyone tell me how to refer to it to get it to run with lein?
05:04	rodnaph	u need to use :gen-class too i think silasdavis
05:04	rodnaph	(in the namespace with -main)
05:05	llasram	No, not with 'lein run'
05:05	nbeloglazov	silasdavis: are you using require,use or refer in your clojure file?
05:07	silasdavis	Same issue: http://pastebin.com/K1tBk2eE
05:07	clojurebot	I think you mean gnir.
05:08	nbeloglazov	Try (:require [monger.core :as mg] [monger.collection :as mc])
05:09	silasdavis	nbeloglazov: thanks, different error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Var$Unbound cannot be cast to com.mongodb.DB
05:11	nbeloglazov	silasdavis: did you try some examples of using monger? I think you use it somehow incorrectly
05:13	silasdavis	yes I had separately, I'll strip that out, I'd just like this file to run
05:14	silasdavis	how does lein find clojure modules? is it just everything below src?
05:19	nbeloglazov	silasdavis: try to move (mg/connect) inside main function
05:21	silasdavis	it seems to be the find call that is causing the problem
05:23	nbeloglazov	I'm not sure that mg/connect is called when you run -main function. So may be when you call mg/find you're not connected.
05:27	silasdavis	connect is fine outside of main function it seems. I wasn't selecting a database to use
05:27	silasdavis	do you understand why the require statement was causing the 'lib names inside prefix lists' issue?
05:39	ro_st	what's an idiomatic way to gather a flat list into a grouped-by… checks for a group-by fn in core
05:40	ro_st	aha!
05:40	ro_st	(inc read-core.clj-already)
05:40	lazybot	⇒ 1
06:13	tomoj	anyone seen the core.logic condp/condw gisted or available elsewhere?
06:14	tomoj	I found a condr that orders clauses randomly
06:14	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/2876680
06:14	clgv	tomoj: for better average performance by chance?
06:15	tomoj	I'm thinking about logic programs for card games which involve shuffling
06:16	clgv	oh, wouldnt have thought of that ^^
06:16	tomoj	dunno what the motivations for condr or condp really are, I hear there's a conj talk about condp but don't know if it's available
06:17	no7hing	,(.foo (proxy [Object][] (foo [] (println "foo!"))))
06:17	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: foo for class sandbox.proxy$java.lang.Object$0>
06:17	no7hing	shouldn't this work?
06:17	clgv	well I think, if you cannot determine the best order of clauses for a given problem or there is not a single one, than condr might improve performance on average
06:19	clgv	no7hing: no. you need an interface which contains foo
06:19	clgv	or a protocol
06:19	no7hing	this is new in 1.4?
06:19	clgv	does that work in 1.3?
06:20	clgv	no, it does not
06:20	no7hing	probably not, i just looked up an example and they all did an override on existing functions
06:20	no7hing	dammit
06:20	clgv	try: (definterface IFoo (foo []))(.foo (proxy [Object IFoo][] (foo [] (println "foo!"))))
06:21	no7hing	works
06:21	clgv	ah. you definitely need to refer to an interface
06:22	clgv	even with protocol (defprotocol IBar (bar [this])) defined you need to use the interface of that protocol (.bar (proxy [Object user.IBar] [] (bar [] (println "bar!")))) assuming it was defined in namespace "user"
06:23	no7hing	silly me thought it'd would be awesome that proxy just creates an ad-hoc interface for me
06:24	clgv	no. I think there is no clojure construct that does that. proxy, reify, deftype/defrecord all need interfaces or protocols...
06:24	tomoj	how do you make a defne fail if an argument is an lvar?
06:24	tomoj	I expect (l/conda [(l/nonlvaro ?arg) l/fail] ...) to work, but it doesn't
06:24	tomoj	oh
06:25	tomoj	I mean, I expect (l/conda [(l/lvaro ?arg) l/fail] ...) to work
06:26	no7hing	no idea what drove me there
06:32	clgv	no7hing: ah :gen-class should be able to define new methods^^
06:36	algernon	is it possible in any way to expose a PersistentArrayMap to Java, so that amap.get("foo") would look up :foo, instead of the string?
06:37	algernon	(I have a clojure lib, that ends up producing a map, with keyword keys, I'd like to expose that to Java, preferably by allowing the users to use strings instead of having to know a thing about clj keywords)
06:43	no7hing	clgv: i tried to steer clear of gen-class because of AOT ;)
06:44	clgv	algernon: you can construct clojure keywords
06:44	clgv	algernon: like that (clojure.lang.Keyword/intern ns name)
06:47	algernon	clgv: I know, that's what I do now, but that's kind of awkward in this case
06:48	clgv	algernon: well since it caches keywords it should be quite fast. you can write a wrapper aroung the map that automatically does the keyword creation
06:48	clgv	*around
06:48	algernon	I have things like for (Object o: s) { Map m = (Map) o; System.out.println(m.get(Keyword.intern("MESSAGE")); }
06:48	clgv	algernon: build the wrapper if you use it frequently in java
06:49	algernon	yeah, that's what I don't know how to.
06:49	clgv	what's the problem?
06:49	algernon	I tried extending PersistentArrayMap (which o is, under the hood), but then I get errors that say it can't be cated to my derived type
06:50	algernon	Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to bb.XMap
06:50	algernon	stuff like that.
06:50	clgv	no dont do that. there is the golden rule: "Prefer composition over inheritance." one of the main messages of the gang of four book ;)
06:52	algernon	hrm. so, I should create a whole new class, that pretty much just wraps PersistentArrayMap, proxying everything but get?
06:53	clgv	select the interfaces you need and build a class base on them: the constructor gets a clojure map and you implement the interfaces
06:53	algernon	hmmm. that sounds reasonable.
06:53	clgv	so you should have your custom interface which gives you something like: "get-kw"
06:53	algernon	thanks, this'll get me going!
06:54	clgv	keep in mind the principle^^
07:00	bosie	i use "lein midje" to run my midje test cases. works fine except if something fails i get a rather long stacktrace
07:03	bosie	example: https://gist.github.com/4327382
07:05	ticking	how much bad style would it be to have a keyword argument that takes a numerical value or a magical keyword
07:05	ticking	say (rotate 45 :x 10 :y 5) and (rotate 45 :x :left :y :top)
07:06	algernon	clgv: thanks again, got my desired API to work fine :)
07:06	clgv	algernon: great :)
07:07	clgv	ticking: well the semantics seem unclear
07:07	clgv	ticking: I would add additional keywords for :left :top
07:08	ticking	clgv: yeah but what would you name them :D
07:09	clgv	ticking: no idea, I dont know what they do
07:09	ticking	provide an anchor around which a rotation occurs
07:10	ticking	my thought is that always providing thing like height/2 heigth and 0 is cumbersome when all you want is top bottom and center ^^
07:26	clgv	ticking: how about :vertical and :horizontal then?
07:27	clgv	ticking: what do you use for keyword args? pure clojure?
07:27	ticking	clgv: right so you mean one could in theory do (rotate img 45 :x 5 :y 10 :horizontal :center :vertical :top) but in such case x and y will simply ovverride the horizontal and vertical?
07:27	ticking	clgv: you mean the calling code?
07:27	clgv	ticking: or you throw an error
07:28	ticking	it should be pure clojure yeah
07:28	clgv	ticking: you can specify either-or in the contract and throw an exception if both are given
07:28	ticking	clgv: that sounds as if there were already code for such thing ^^
08:07	cemerick2	test, sorry
08:09	cemerick	that was bizarre
08:10	ejackson	cemerick: you forked yourself ?
08:11	cemerick	ejackson: I had said something, but it didn't show up in my log, or in the web logs
08:12	cemerick	once I logged in from the freenode web client, messages from my regular client started showing up again
08:15	ejackson	that is bizarre.
08:28	bosie	how would i be able to pass an arrayseq into clojure.java.io/file ?
08:42	cemerick	bosie: you mean you have a seq containing a bunch of file path parts?
08:43	clgv	cemerick: "friend" does not offer brute-force protection, yet?
08:43	cemerick	clgv: as in, throttling authentication requests and such?
08:44	bosie	cemerick: yes, apply seems to be the thing
08:44	cemerick	bosie: yup, that's what you want
08:44	clgv	cemerick: yeah temporary bans after several attempts
08:46	cemerick	clgv: nope. Would be pretty easy to do in a naive way (which would probably work just fine in nearly all cases)
08:47	clgv	cemerick: would be a nice addition to friend ;)
08:47	cemerick	Things like lock-outs would need to be implemented on a per-workflow and per-credential-source basis though.
08:47	borkdude	(def as (clojure.lang.ArraySeq/create (to-array ["tmp" "test" "textfile.txt"])))
08:47	borkdude	(apply file as)
08:47	cemerick	clgv: Be my guest. ;-) Should go into a separate library though, at least to start.
08:48	borkdude	meanwhile the question had already been answered and I have figured out how to create an ArraySeq :P
08:49	cemerick	borkdude: just (seq any-java-array) will do
08:49	clgv	cemerick: I did not investigate the internals of friend,yet. you could add it to the list of goals as hint what others may work on
08:49	borkdude	cemerick I knew there had to be an easier way ;)
08:50	borkdude	I've really not worked with java arrays in clojure, never needed to
08:53	borkdude	however, the arguments of a vararg function get collected in an ArraySeq
09:19	jsabeaudry	Recommendations for async http server besides aleph (too slow)?
09:26	ro_st	jsabeaudry: atmosphere was in the most recent clojure digest
09:27	ro_st	no clojure abstraction yet, but it seems to be well liked
09:36	ejlo	has anyone here managed to get the clojurescript browser repl working with node-webkit?
09:40	jsabeaudry	ro_st, great, will try it out right now, I found another one named http-kit but it throws on big files
09:43	samrat	could someone take a look at my attempt to upload files using Dropbox API(its not working): https://bitbucket.org/samrat/jopbox/src/620d223b33b85dbe16b787e653c20d25864f2ca6/src/jopbox/client.clj?at=default#cl-66
09:43	jsabeaudry	ro_st, isn't that a social network api?
09:46	jsabeaudry	ro_st, oh nevermind, finally found it
09:46	Fauno1	@samrat, Access denied
09:46	Fauno1	Use the links at the top to get back.
09:56	jsabeaudry	Does lein uberjar AOT compile everything by default?
09:56	cark	nope
09:58	cark	actually i think yes, but it will include the source code
09:58	cark	there is the :omit-source true option in project.clj
09:59	jsabeaudry	cark, that will not affect start-up time however, right?
10:00	cark	i don't think so
10:00	cark	but you know, your best bet is to check the content of an ubberjar for yourself
10:01	cark	jar xf myjar.jar
10:01	clgv	jsabeaudry: lein uberjar compiles those files transitively which are required in the namespace with your main method.
10:01	cark	that should unpack it
10:02	samrat	Fauno1: sorry, I've made it a public repo now
10:56	moogatronic	Any emacs exp. people using SublimeText2? I'm looking for a workable setup that gives at least some of the sexp eval, Paren, and general 'integrated' feel that Emacs/nrepl gives. (Mostly to show other people who have 0 emacs experience a working clojure setup that isn't really annoying to work in)
10:59	borkdude	moogatronic no, but maybe eclipse+ccw is good for beginners/no-emacsers too
11:00	moogatronic	borkdude: yeah, though, having had to use eclipse for about 10 years, I would really like to avoid inflicting that thing on anyone, especially casual newb-ish programmers.
11:00	moogatronic	ccw itself looks pretty awesome though.
11:01	borkdude	moogatronic maybe light table, but that's not very stable and complete yet
11:01	rkz	what's wrong with the web editor bodil made? it's very noob friendly
11:01	borkdude	moogatronic I recommend ccw to my students, if they don't want to go the emacs road
11:01	rkz	https://github.com/bodil/catnip
11:03	borkdude	rkz now that you mention it, I used it when it was at version 0.1
11:03	borkdude	rkz gonna try that again
11:03	moogatronic	rkz: nothings wrong, but I am wanting local 'app' editor / configurations.
11:04	rkz	moogatronic: it's local, just runs via browser :)
11:04	borkdude	moogatronic everything runs local in catnip
11:04	borkdude	in fact Bodil is here, the creator of this
11:04	moogatronic	maybe i'll check it out. does it fire up nrepl from lein and all that stuff?
11:05	moogatronic	borkdude: yeah, I saw her preso at the conj
11:05	borkdude	moogatronic I wouldn't know about nrepl, ask Bodil
11:08	borkdude	wow, catnip really improved since I saw it
11:08	moogatronic	looks like this may be what i want, based off the read me at any rate. =)
11:10	borkdude	I think I made it crash though, by evaluating (read-line) in the repl… ;)
11:22	Ferdy_	Hi, on behalf of 3 Bsc students competer science I am looking for a thesis project/internship. Is there anyone who can help me or point me in the right direction?
11:23	Fauno1	i'm starting to build my own continuous integration platform in clojure which i could open-source if you're interested
11:23	borkdude	hello Ferdy, I see you are from Delft, how nice
11:23	Ferdy_	=)
11:24	borkdude	borkdude I'm working at hogeschool utrecht and have done some clojure projects with my students
11:24	borkdude	Ferdy_ I mean… (something up with my typing)
11:24	vijaykiran	Fauno1: interesting - something like Jenkins ?
11:24	borkdude	Ferdy_ would you like to work with a company or within your university?
11:25	Ferdy_	Depends on the project
11:25	borkdude	Ferdy_ doesn't the project depend on what you want in the first place?
11:27	Ferdy_	borkdude True I suppose. However we don't have too clear of an idea of what we want to do. We have to do a project for a third party such as a teacher or company. Either could be interesting
11:29	ciphergoth	Should I have stars either side of the name of my dynamic vars? Is that the convention?
11:29	borkdude	Ferdy_ should it involve clojure and is that the reason why you're asking in here?
11:29	borkdude	ciphergoth it's convention, but really the metadata decides if it's dynamic from 1.3 onward
11:30	ciphergoth	borkdude: OK - yep noticed that it's now a metadata thing, but wanted to follow the conventions too!
11:30	tbaldridge	ciphergoth: but I think these conventions are "enforced" via warnings these days. So if you have a dynamic var without them it might complain
11:30	ciphergoth	no it doesn't complain
11:30	ciphergoth	but it does complain if you put stars without a dynamic marker
11:30	ciphergoth	that's how I know about the convention :)
11:31	Ferdy_	borkdude The 3 of us really enjoy working with clojure and think there is a lot of interesting ground not covered in our curiculum. So we would like to do it in clojure but our university doesn't seem to care for clojure.
11:31	vijaykiran	ciphergoth: yeah, it complains the otherway round
11:32	TimMc	Whenever somesome says earmuffs, I always think @earmuffs@ instead. :-/
11:32	borkdude	Ferdy_ let's talk private in Dutch if you don't mind, maybe we can exchange some contact details
11:37	crease	is there any way to implicitly specify project-wide namespace stuff in a leiningen profile? Like if I wanted every namespace to require pprint when developing, but didn't want that explicitly in the ns form
11:37	bosie	is there a way to overload functions based on values?
11:37	bosie	i.e. i have one parameter and if its nil, do this, if not do that
11:37	moogatronic	bosie: multi methods?
11:38	gtrak	crease: it sounds like a bad idea.. I would just make a utility function for that and put it in a shared namespace
11:38	bosie	moogatronic: lemme check
11:38	moogatronic	you can dispatch on type, value, etc.
11:39	bosie	was hoping for sth like (defn foo [nil] 0 [x] (println x))
11:39	moogatronic	google turns up some pretty good examples
11:39	borkdude	bosie multmethods yes
11:39	bosie	k
11:39	borkdude	bosie or pattern matching
11:40	bosie	borkdude: that was the word i was looking for, thx
11:40	borkdude	bosie defn doesn't support it out of the box, but there's this https://github.com/clojure/core.match
11:40	bosie	borkdude: yup
12:16	crease	gtrak: yeah, probably a bad idea
12:17	gtrak	crease: you could put some require's in a fn in a test namespace, that's probably the easiest thing
12:18	gtrak	(crease.util/repl-bits) or something like that
12:18	technomancy	crease: you can do that using nstools
12:18	technomancy	but it's out of scope for leiningen
12:19	technomancy	I agree it's annoying to have to copy/paste things all around for simple things like pprint; nstools does a decent job of making that better
12:19	gtrak	hrm... I feel like if you're doing repetitive stuff, you'd want to group it into its own namespace... what's wrong with a little indirection?
12:20	joevandyk_	are all the lein project templates embedded in lein? or does it look them up somewhere?
12:20	crease	gtrak: it's not a very principled thing, it's just that my hands start falling off after typing (use 'clojure.pprint) (use 'clojure.repl) a billion times
12:20	technomancy	joevandyk_: it comes with a few templates (see the lein-newnew project) but can download them dynamically from clojars as well
12:21	joevandyk_	technomancy: clojars == rubygems.org?
12:21	technomancy	joevandyk_: more or less
12:21	crease	technomancy: I'll look into that, thanks.
12:21	gtrak	crease: sounds like you need a pprint foot-pedal
12:21	joevandyk_	what's with all the "Could not find artifact lein-ring:lein-ring:pom:0.7.5 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)" warnings/errors?
12:21	joevandyk_	just me?
12:21	crease	gtrak: I'm guessing you're joking but that's actually an awesome idea
12:22	crease	hm
12:22	gtrak	haha
12:22	technomancy	gtrak: yeah actually nrepl middleware or something to auto-pprint things might be worth experimenting with
12:23	TimMc	crease: It really is.
12:24	joevandyk_	i did 'lein new compojure hello', then 'lein run' and i get "No :main namespace specified in project.clj" Shouldn't that be put in the project.clj by the template generator?
12:24	technomancy	joevandyk_: lein looks in central (java-centric repo) as well as clojars
12:24	technomancy	so it's saying it can't find it in central and is falling back to clojars
12:24	technomancy	which is kind of silly; the master version is better about only telling you things that matter
12:24	weavejester	joevandyk_: Why would it? There's nothing to run...
12:24	weavejester	joevandyk_: If you want to start a development server, you can do "lein ring server"
12:25	joevandyk_	weavejester: ah
12:25	joevandyk_	weavejester: i'm confused by "there's nothing to run"
12:25	technomancy	joevandyk_: yeah it's not obvious how that template doesn't give you an embedded jetty server
12:26	weavejester	joevandyk_: Well, you're defining a web application, which in Clojure terms means a Ring handler.
12:26	weavejester	joevandyk_: How a Ring handler is turned into a web server is up to you
12:26	crease	I haven't played around with nrepl middleware much, it looks like the place to go though. and pretty easy to write… I've been wanting a way to throw together queries on projects quickly
12:26	technomancy	I wonder what the numbers are on non-jetty web users
12:27	technomancy	suspect they're pretty slim
12:27	joevandyk_	weavejester: ah. ok.
12:27	weavejester	The latest snapshot of lein-ring allows you to create an executable jar which uses the embedded Jetty server
12:27	weavejester	I'll probably release it this weekend, since it seems to work well enough
12:27	crease	tap the foot-pedal, get a tree of all references to a function in a project…
12:27	technomancy	personally I think including a :main in the template would be a good default for beginners
12:28	antoineB	hello, how to import a protocol in clojurescript? (i get " is not a protocol" warning )
12:28	gtrak	crease: I use this in a util namespace all the time: (defn and-print [val] (pp/pprint val) val)
12:28	joevandyk_	What's the best way to learn about the infrastructure parts of clojure? testing, packaging, deploying, organizing, etc?
12:28	weavejester	The README of the template does explain how to get the server started, though maybe a (println) would be useful as well
12:28	technomancy	joevandyk_: start with `lein help tutorial`
12:29	antoineB	i used (ns some.ns (:use [some.other.ns :only [ISomeProto someProtoDef]])
12:29	joevandyk_	technomancy: perfect! thanks!
12:29	technomancy	joevandyk_: clojure-doc.org has some great content too
12:29	gtrak	during threading, it's kinda like a ruby's tap, afaict
12:29	technomancy	tap is doto, isn't it?
12:29	weavejester	technomancy: I'm a little adverse to including a main method in the template, as that combines a method of deployment with the actual code...
12:29	gtrak	yea, suppose so
12:30	weavejester	My preference is to provide different outputs: war file, executable jar, development server, etc.
12:30	technomancy	weavejester: well that's the thing about templates; it's very obvious what they're doing, and the 5% who are deploying to tomcat typically know what they're doing
12:30	technomancy	so it's easy for them to just strip out the bits they don't like
12:30	technomancy	in fact people deploying to tomcat are probably a lot less likely to use the template to begin with
12:30	gtrak	doto pprint is more general, you're right
12:31	TimMc	sppy
12:31	weavejester	technomancy: Yes… but templates should also guide users to the "right way" of doing things
12:31	TimMc	(defmacro sppy [form] `(doto ~form (pprint)))
12:32	weavejester	I don't think having a main method in your project is the right way to start out.
12:32	gtrak	it's weird to use doto because I learned as a java interop form
12:32	weavejester	Because you're writing a web application, not a console application
12:33	technomancy	I don't see the point of distinguishing unless you're trying to integrate into an existing legacy environment
12:33	Ember-	hmm, I see no problem in having a main function if you are doing a web application
12:34	amalloy	man, are you guys writing this macro again? you're missing the key feature: (defmacro ? [x] `(let [x# ~x] (printf "%s is %s" (pr-str x#) ~(pr-str x)) x#))
12:34	joevandyk_	technomancy: the 'lein help tutorial' stuff is perfect
12:34	technomancy	joevandyk_: swet
12:34	Ember-	in fact, that's the way I'd prefer to do it if app containers would allow it all the time
12:34	technomancy	sweet
12:35	amalloy	er, except i got the two args to printf backwards. you get the idea, i think: print the form as well as its value
12:35	gtrak	amalloy: nice
12:36	weavejester	technomancy: It's not necessarily just legacy environments like servlet containers
12:36	joevandyk_	best way to get autotest-like functionality?
12:36	hyPiRion	joevandyk_: lazytest I think
12:36	technomancy	joevandyk_: keep it in the repl
12:36	ejackson	which profile does leiningen use to find repositories for lein jar ?
12:36	technomancy	for emacs, clojure-test-mode
12:36	joevandyk_	vim?
12:36	clojurebot	Gesundheit!
12:37	weavejester	And the idea is to separate the definition of a web app from the implementation
12:37	ejackson	lein repl finds my nexus repo, lein jar gets upset. I have the repo described in ~/.lein/profiles.clj under {:user ....}
12:37	amalloy	wait, servlet containers are legacy environments now?
12:37	TimMc	amalloy: No, I was just writing the basic version, knowing you'd fill it in. :-D
12:38	weavejester	amalloy: In my view ;)
12:38	technomancy	ejackson: the user repo is the wrong place for repos that you can't build the jar without
12:38	technomancy	ejackson: that's what you call a recipe for Works on My Machine =)
12:38	TimMc	amalloy: The background there was wanting to have a pprint version.
12:38	ejackson	hehehe, yeah, rather what I'm discovering :)
12:39	amalloy	yeah. but i never use pprint so i couldn't remember how to get it to write to out without just lamely (binding ...)
12:40	TimMc	amalloy: The key is to have that foot-pedal change an atom (I think) so that a (printer) fn returns the right print fn.
12:40	gtrak	I want a write-my-program button on my foot pedal
12:40	amalloy	speaking of which: foot pedal, really? i mean, i'm all in favor of foot pedals, but this sounds more like a job for a keyboard shortcut
12:40	amalloy	or a keybinding, if you're in emacs
12:41	TimMc	FOOT PEDAL
12:41	TimMc	It's a mode, not a command.
12:41	TimMc	Or maybe it should be a set of stops, like on an organ.
12:41	gtrak	I've been thinking of using this for a generic controller: https://github.com/overtone/grid
12:41	gtrak	now that we're talking about organs
12:42	gtrak	it even lights up and stuff
12:42	ejackson	technomancy: the problem is that I don't control the source, and the dep in question is not on a public repo. No problem, just host locally in nexus, but now I figure out how to resolve the repo without changing the project.clj.
12:42	technomancy	ejackson: so the source is broken =(
12:43	ejackson	technomancy: alright, I'll go upstream then :)
12:45	crease	foot pedal, definitely. with stops
12:46	crease	I was thinking pressure plates on desk chairs, so you can instruct the repl exactly how pretty to print by shifting your weight
12:47	crease	gtrak: you shouldn' t put buttons on your pedal. finger-pinch
12:47	gtrak	hook up an extra monitor to your tongue: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1210425/Blind-people-able-using-amazing-tongue-tingling-device-bypasses-eyes.html
12:50	TimMc	Ugh, the Daily Mail.
13:12	bosie	is there a way to make midje use nailgun ? the startup times of midje are too slow
13:14	mabes	bosie: you're best bet is to try to use drip since it has lein integration (https://github.com/flatland/drip)
13:14	mabes	s/you're/your/
13:14	mabes	drip will only save on the JVM start up time though
13:14	joevandyk_	i'm using vimclojure, but i'd love for the output of the repl to go to a different terminal window (or maybe the terminal that's running nailgun. is that possible?
13:15	bosie	mabes: as opposed to?
13:16	technomancy	bosie: you should just start a repl and do all your work in it
13:16	technomancy	starting a new process just to run your tests is not the way to go
13:17	bosie	technomancy: and then execute midje through the repl?
13:17	joevandyk	technomancy: is there a screencast or something about how to edit code and work with files inside a repl? i'm so used to editing files and running them
13:18	technomancy	bosie: yeah
13:18	technomancy	joevandyk: hmm... not sure what would be helpful there
13:18	joevandyk	technomancy: you edit functions and save them to files inside the repo?
13:19	technomancy	right
13:20	mabes	bosie: as opposed to JVM start up time + load time of midje and your app. technomancy is right about using the repl.. the newest version of midje has nice repl support
13:21	bosie	mabes: looking at it now
13:26	bosie	mabes: can't seem to figure out how to do it in the repl
13:27	antoineB	is there someone here, involved in clojurescript analyzer dev?
13:27	dnolen	antoineB: yep
13:28	antoineB	i get "is not a protocol" error, when i use a protocol imported from another file
13:28	mabes	bosie: this may help https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/midje/XH5WOZFMrAA ... So, in 1.5-alpha3 you can say (load-facts :all)
13:28	antoineB	i suspect the "resolve-var" in cljs.analyzer remove the meta-data
13:31	bosie	mabes: i use alpha3. i load a repl with "lein repl" and do "> (use 'midje.sweet)"
13:31	bosie	(load-facts :all) results in "unable to resolve symbol"
13:31	dnolen	antoineB: do you have a minimal reproducible case? Can you make a gist of what you're trying to do?
13:32	antoineB	dnolen: i will test in a repl
13:32	bosie	mabes: clearly i am doing it wrong ;)
13:33	pandeiro	is declare supposed to work in cljs?
13:33	dnolen	antoineB: a little more info would be helpful. Are you running into this problem when using lein-cljsbuild? the clojurescript compiler directly?
13:33	dnolen	pandeiro: yes
13:36	pandeiro	dnolen: definitely doesn't work in the Rhino REPL on the latest release, cleaning my cljsbuild cache and testing in browser...
13:36	antoineB	dnolen: lein-cljsbuild, i haven't the problem before, but a update to lein-cljsbuild form 0.2.9 to 0.2.10
13:37	antoineB	*i update form 0.2.9 to 0.2.10 and the problem appear
13:38	dnolen	pandeiro: declare still works - but it seems like it may have issues in the Rhino REPL.
13:39	pandeiro	dnolen: w/ lein-cljsbuild 0.2.10 + :whitespace i get nothing in the output js from declare
13:39	dnolen	antoineB: please create a minimal case and open a ticket.
13:40	dnolen	pandeiro: declare shouldn't generate any code, it doesn't do anything.
13:40	pandeiro	dnolen: shouldn't it just create the key in the namespace?
13:41	dnolen	pandeiro: I don't see why it should, it's likely to get removed anyway.
13:42	TimMc	dnolen: Because of var hoisting in JS?
13:42	pandeiro	dnolen: i thought of declare as a way of "re-enabling" the JS hoisting behavior we're used to?
13:42	dnolen	TimMc: no because of optimizations.
13:42	dnolen	pandeiro: declare is meant to be used precisely as it's meant to be used in Clojure, hoisting has nothing to do w/ it.
13:43	dnolen	it's for forward declarations of top levels
13:44	pandeiro	dnolen: not sure what that accomplishes if the JS interpreter will still trip up on any var that hasn't been actually defined when it is used in code
13:44	dnolen	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-444
13:44	pandeiro	k
13:44	dnolen	pandeiro: will look into it, this probably an unfortunate side effect of some dead code elimination improvements.
13:45	pandeiro	dnolen: i had been using declare in the manner TimMc and I alluded to in previous versions of CLJS and i remember it working... so i think you might be right
13:46	dnolen	pandeiro: it's error to use it that way.
13:46	dnolen	no promises were ever made about unintended uses of declare
13:46	pandeiro	dnolen: hmm, then i don't understand the use case, honestly
13:46	dnolen	pandeiro: forward declaration, that's it
13:46	pandeiro	i mean cljs doesn't really exist apart from the JS runtime
13:47	dnolen	pandeiro: however if you're running into something where the semantics don't line up w/ Clojure then by all means, that's a bug too.
13:47	antoineB	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/4330709
13:47	dnolen	pandeiro: but I can't think of case that doesn't involve ns manipulation where it wouldn't blow up in Clojure JVM
13:47	antoineB	dnolen: i tested it in a fresh project
13:47	pandeiro	dnolen: hard to assess, because in my mind 'forward declaration' and function housing in JS are practically synonymous, albeit achieved by different means
13:48	dnolen	pandeiro: that's not what it means
13:48	dnolen	pandeiro: there are no hoisting semantics to `declare` in clojure at all
13:48	antoineB	just also notice that the command "lein cljsbuild once" don't end (don't give me back the bash)
13:48	dnolen	pandeiro: using any top level name before def or declare is an error. it's that simple.
13:49	pandeiro	dnolen: ah no, you're misunderstanding me: i am doing (declare foo) and then (defn foo ...) later in the namespace file
13:49	dnolen	antoineB: that's a lein-cljsbuild bug.
13:49	pandeiro	and JS trips up regardless with an undefined error
13:49	antoineB	dnolen: you mean the "once" command or the warning?
13:50	antoineB	for the "once" it's a cljsbuild bug
13:50	pandeiro	dnolen: i understand the semantics are different, but functionally, the two mechanisms allow for the same common coding technique: defining things later in the file than they are used, ie code organization
13:50	dnolen	pandeiro: heh, ok, I thought we were talking past each other.
13:51	dnolen	pandeiro: attach a minimal case not at the REPL that demonstrates what you're talking about. Though that seems weird since we're using declare in core.cljs and not seeing any undefined issues.
13:51	dnolen	pandeiro: to the ticket
13:51	pandeiro	dnolen: k, will do
13:51	pandeiro	dnolen: commen to the same ticket as yours, or new ticket?
13:52	dnolen	pandeiro: i'll change the ticket title.
13:52	dnolen	pandeiro: done
13:53	dnolen	antoineB: can you include the error you are seeing in your paste?
13:53	antoineB	i made a comment
13:55	antoineB	cljsbuild 0.2.10 use ClojureScript version 0.0-1552.
13:57	antoineB	dnolen: if you look like at the error message, you go into "extend-type" macro
14:01	dnolen	antoineB: are you sure there is not a type involved here, I just tried it and it works for me no error
14:01	dnolen	type -> typo
14:02	antoineB	dnolen: do you use cljsbuild?
14:03	dnolen	antoineB: yep 0.2.10
14:03	dnolen	pandeiro: feel free to comment on this ticket, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-444
14:04	pandeiro	dnolen: i'm afraid it was user error on my part, expecting "hoisting" behavior, as you pointed out
14:04	pandeiro	sorry
14:04	pandeiro	it's because in JS, I can call a function before it's defined
14:04	pandeiro	and in Clojure, declare really doesn't allow that
14:04	pandeiro	sorry to waste your time with that
14:04	dnolen	antoineB: if you're certain you can reproduce - it's easiest if you can make a project that illustrates the issue, then I can clone that and try it out using your exact setup modulo OS & JVM environment
14:04	pandeiro	but the Rhino REPL really does barf on (declare ...) in any case
14:04	pandeiro	not sure that's a major bug
14:05	dnolen	pandeiro: ok, updating the title.
14:05	antoineB	dnolen: ok
14:05	dnolen	pandeiro: it's a bit annoying for interactive dev
14:05	harob	Hi all, I wanted to get your thoughts on a recurring problem in my code: I often want to have alternating computations and side-effecting statements (e.g. logging of the intermediate computed results). The way I do that now is with "fake" let variables, but it seems really hackish:
14:05	harob	let [a (compute-a)
14:05	harob	_ (log-a a)
14:05	harob	b (compute-b a)
14:05	harob	_ (log-b b)
14:05	harob	...]
14:05	harob	The other way I can think of would be to have many nested let statements, and do the logging in the implicit do's, but that makes the code even less readable. Is there a better solution for this?
14:05	technomancy	harob: 0) please use a paste site like gist or refheap; 1) try (doto (compute-a) log-a)
14:06	pandeiro	dnolen: i really wanted to be able to define an "on-ready" fn for initiating my app, but throw that definition at the bottom of the file, after the more 'important' code, which is something i could do in JS of course
14:08	dnolen	pandeiro: I don't see how that problem isn't solved w/ declare.
14:08	harob	technomancy: got it for gist! doto sounds good, although I would have as many doto statements as intermediate variables. I think ideally there would be a higher-level construct similar to let but that supports skipped
14:08	joevandyk	what is "trampoline", as in "lein trampoline"?
14:08	harob	expressions
14:08	borkdude	you could also let the logging function just return its argument… let [a (log (compute a))] …, don't know.. is that evil?
14:09	technomancy	joevandyk: it's a way to avoid having both Leiningen's JVM and the project's running at the same time
14:09	hyPiRion	borkdude: it's okay for debugging at least
14:09	technomancy	joevandyk: Leiningen enforces a separation between your code and its code, which is pretty different from ruby. it tries to be as transparent as possible, though there are a few necessary exceptions.
14:09	hyPiRion	But purists/functional extremists may want to hunt you down
14:10	borkdude	hyPiRion we can wrap it inside an IO monad anytime, to hide the evil
14:10	pandeiro	dnolen: (declare on-ready) (defn do-stuff []) (on-ready do-stuff) (defn on-ready [f] (set! (.-onload js/window) f)) <-- this won't work b/c the call to on-ready comes before the definition
14:10	squidz	can anybody point me to some code using enlive for html templating?
14:11	pandeiro	dnolen: which is expected, right? same would happen at the clj repl
14:11	antoineB	dnolen: for my test project, i find the typo, i used a .clj instead of a .cljs
14:12	dnolen	pandeiro: yeah that won't work.
14:12	squidz	so far Ive mostly found tutorials on how to use enlive for scraping, but I would really like to see real examples of it being used for templating
14:12	TimMc	squidz: Here's some I wrote recently: https://github.com/timmc/pellucida/blob/master/src/org/timmc/pellucida/listing.clj
14:12	squidz	TimMc: thanks
14:12	dnolen	antoineB: good to hear it's not a bug in CLJS that would have been a bad bug :)
14:13	pandeiro	dnolen: so basically i was asking for JS weirdness to be brought into CLJS and was appropriately scolded by you ;)
14:13	TimMc	squidz: I found Enlive to have a long learning curve.
14:13	joevandyk	technomancy: hm, if I use lein 2 with heroku, 'lein deps' doesn't seem to be ran automatically?
14:13	harob	By the way, is the let-with-fake-undercore pattern acceptable in the clojure community? I saw it in the Emerick-Carper-Grand book.
14:13	squidz	is it worth it in the end? Normally Ive only really used java's wicket, i'm guessing it's much different
14:14	technomancy	joevandyk: correct; running deps hasn't been necessary for a long time
14:14	borkdude	squidz here is something from a project of mine https://www.refheap.com/paste/7701
14:14	dnolen	pandeiro: heh hopefully not scolded. I was confused by you asking for something clearly not allowed in Clojure.
14:14	TimMc	squidz: I'm not familiar with Wicket. I like Enlive's separation of HTML and transformation.
14:14	squidz	borkdude: thanks
14:14	harob	squidz: The Programming Clojure book has an excellent tutorial on Enlive, much better than I found online. And yes, it is worth it?
14:14	joevandyk	technomancy: ah. on the first request to heroku, it starts downloading all the dependences, which takes a minute or two
14:14	pandeiro	dnolen: i was totally trying to get hoisting into cljs :)
14:14	joevandyk	(while the request hangs)
14:14	technomancy	yeah
14:14	joevandyk	which doesn't happen with lein1
14:15	technomancy	hm; should be the same
14:15	squidz	harob: thanks for the tip, ill take a look at it
14:15	TimMc	borkdude: Combining Hiccup and Enlive, there?
14:16	borkdude	TimMc yes, is that evil also?
14:16	TimMc	Well, it certainly startled me.
14:17	borkdude	TimMc it's called pragmatic instead of pure ;)
14:18	borkdude	TimMc or a lack of enlive knowledge, probably that
14:18	technomancy	enlive is hard =\
14:18	squidz	why is it so hard?
14:19	technomancy	it's not documented and the conceptual model behind it is difficult to grasp
14:19	squidz	ah, okay, so the documentation is really a problem i guess
14:20	squidz	I thought my google-fu just wasn't sufficient
14:20	technomancy	all the docs for it I could find were like "here, do it like this" rather than explaining what was really going, which leads to copy/paste coding rather than real understanding
14:20	technomancy	*going on
14:20	borkdude	yes, I agree. there is documentation, but it lacks examples
14:20	squidz	technomancy: you used to program ruby if I remember corrrectly, how long did you do ruby?
14:20	technomancy	squidz: around 2005-08, and I've picked it up a bit again for work
14:21	squidz	okay, are you happy with almost completely moving over to clojure?
14:21	technomancy	I'm much happier working in Clojure, but there are still some things the JVM is rubbish at
14:21	callen	technomancy: other than scripts, what?
14:22	squidz	interesting
14:22	technomancy	callen: subprocess management and unixy things primarily
14:22	technomancy	disposable processes
14:22	callen	technomancy: oh yes.
14:22	callen	borkdude: compared to most template libraries, Enlive is black magic in a bad way.
14:22	squidz	has learning clojure changed the way you program ruby now
14:22	callen	borkdude: I'd rather use Fleet or Stencil.
14:22	technomancy	the codebase I manage at work is practically all messing with subprocesses and SSH
14:23	Ember-	well, it did get better though, process management with java at least
14:23	callen	I'd really rather have something like Play or Django/Jinja templates though.
14:23	squidz	callen: what templating engine do you recommend?
14:23	technomancy	squidz: well I never wrote "proper" OOP ruby to begin with
14:23	borkdude	callen I like css selectors and total separation of html and templating
14:23	callen	squidz: Fleet or Stencil, to taste.
14:23	Ember-	not saying it couldn't be better though
14:23	technomancy	just a bunch of methods on modules
14:23	callen	borkdude: yeah uh, what you just said doesn't mean what you think it means.
14:23	callen	borkdude: think carefully to yourself about the implications of writing backend code that complects CSS classes with passing data to the frontend.
14:23	callen	borkdude: how much does that make really?
14:24	callen	further it makes the ludicrous assumption that templating is only needed where HTML or XML are involved.
14:24	callen	how much sense*
14:24	borkdude	callen what do I think it means?
14:24	TimMc	squidz: Enlive requires you to be really comfortable with higher order functions if you want to do anything non-trivial.
14:24	callen	borkdude: backend code should not care about CSS classes on the frontend.
14:24	callen	I have great news though, you see, the world found a better way.
14:24	squidz	TimMc: so it enforces good practice?
14:24	borkdude	I feel a religious debate is coming up
14:24	TimMc	No, it' just requires a certain way of thinking.
14:24	callen	It's called passing a map or dictionary of data to the template-side. works great.
14:25	hyPiRion	Oh, it's almost time for the quine to reappear.
14:25	borkdude	callen that is basically how you use a deftemplate I guess?
14:25	squidz	callen: what do you use for making sites instead of enlive?
14:25	callen	technomancy: that doesn't surprise me that work there involves that amount of mucking about.
14:26	callen	squidz: usually Stencil, mostly because of refheap (raynes), but I've tinkered with fleet and been fairly impressed.
14:26	technomancy	callen: our platform is all based around HTTP applications, and I'm stuck maintaining an SSH-based app =(
14:26	callen	Fleet is analogous to JSP for Clojure.
14:26	amalloy	hyPiRion: Raynes removed the timer because he is a spoilsport who thinks that a message every 16 hours is spammy
14:26	hyPiRion	Unless Raynes killed it.
14:26	hyPiRion	oh
14:26	TimMc	squidz: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2012-11-29.html#00:38
14:26	squidz	t
14:26	squidz	TimMc: thanks
14:27	hyPiRion	Well, I don't mind. Did he remove timers altogether?
14:27	TimMc	That was my insight.
14:27	technomancy	I'm working on a replacement with HTTPS-based git, but HTTP really sucks for this kind of thing in a number of ways
14:27	hyPiRion	$timer 0:0:1 foo
14:27	lazybot	Timer added.
14:27	lazybot	foo
14:27	TimMc	muahaha
14:27	callen	"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan <--- this applies to Enlive.
14:27	technomancy	not the least of which being lack of support for client-side SSL certs
14:28	callen	dnolen: you are the guy behind core.logic/match, nobody expects you to find things like that difficult.
14:28	TimMc	amalloy: If he had removed timers altogher, I'd stage a civil disobedience action by tossing clojurebot a lazybot-flooding command.
14:28	hyPiRion	echo Gotta love echo
14:28	borkdude	I like enlive, only more examples would be welcome.
14:28	callen	dnolen: nevertheless, I have things I want to make. I'd like to make them in Clojure rather than Python. Sadly the state of templating on Clojure makes a compelling argument for not using Clojure. I'm not the only one who feels this way.
14:28	hyPiRion	Oh, he removed that one. Smart guy.
14:28	dnolen	callen: a lot of people seemed to enjoy my old tutorial - http://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial
14:29	dnolen	callen: I think the primary issue is the lack of more good documentation and example usages
14:29	callen	dnolen: I am of course familiar with it, as I followed along with it when I originally tried to learn Enlive.
14:29	callen	dnolen: no, I'm sorry but it's really not. It's a fundamental property of the design.
14:29	TimMc	dnolen: It didn't help me, but I haven't gotten my own understanding tight enough to write my own tutorial. :-P
14:29	Ember-	I know this isn't exactly about templating in clojure, but we are currently super happy in using clojure+noir+angular.js combo
14:29	lazybot	Gotta love echo
14:29	callen	dnolen: performing whole comprehensions/transformations of the HTML is unnecessary and complecting HTML markup with data injection is insane.
14:29	TimMc	(inc lazybot)
14:29	lazybot	⇒ 11
14:29	TimMc	Ember-: Shouldn't you be using ember.js? ;-)
14:30	dnolen	TimMc: callen: heh fair enough, I tried my best to explain.
14:30	Ember-	development is super speedy, it's ridiculous how much you can achieve with so few lines of code and it's SPA all the way
14:30	callen	Ember-: I'm considering side-stepping the insanity of templating by making it a 100% single-page-app
14:30	technomancy	hiccup forces you to be disciplined about not mixing logic and presentation, but is that really too much to ask?
14:30	hyPiRion	Wow, was lazybot in the kitchen when I echoed or something?
14:30	Ember-	TimMc: hehe, true that. But it's inferior imho :)
14:30	Ember-	callen: go for it
14:30	Ember-	I've done 100% SPA stuff for 2-3 years now
14:30	technomancy	all that practice clojure devs have separating side-effects from functional values helps
14:30	Ember-	ain't going back without a good reason
14:30	TimMc	I hate single-page apps.
14:30	callen	Ember-: I just resent being forced to do so. I don't believe in 100% SPA or 100% server-side.
14:31	callen	Ember-: I also don't like that in 100% SPAs how much work I have to do to make it behave like a normal webapp
14:31	TimMc	Maybe with a proper history mechanism...
14:31	callen	so that it doesn't break user expectations
14:31	joevandyk	has anyone done any work with postgresql returning json to clojure? seems like it might be a natural fit.
14:31	callen	TimMc: that exists bro
14:31	dnolen	callen: perhaps, but different projects have different needs. Enlive does make getting pure CSS and HTML from designers feasible. You have Hiccup at the other end of the spectrum of designs.
14:31	Ember-	callen: like a "normal" webapp?
14:31	Ember-	huh?
14:31	TimMc	Ember-: <a href...>
14:31	TimMc	history
14:31	technomancy	joevandyk: I think that would depend on the underlying jdbc driver
14:31	tbaldridge	(inc dnolen) I don't linke enlive much but that feature is hard to beat
14:31	Ember-	TimMc: those are done by the spa libraries
14:31	Ember-	for you
14:32	technomancy	joevandyk: when I looked into hstore (a similar feature to json) the JDBC support was really half-baked
14:32	technomancy	haven't tried json yet because IIRC heroku postgres doesn't have it yet
14:32	callen	dnolen: I understand fully why people like Enlive, but it's not appropriate for working on webapps where you have a frontend guy.
14:32	borkdude	what the heck is a SPA webapp? a single page application web application?
14:32	Ember-	I built one myself actually, unfortunately proprietary
14:32	Ember-	borkdude: hehe, nitpicker
14:32	callen	borkdude: JS-driven navigation, history, templating, state transition web app.
14:32	TimMc	SWPA
14:33	TimMc	single world wide web user-agent page view application
14:33	Ember-	borkdude: but if you did not actually know SPA then think it as fat client on browser
14:33	dnolen	callen: sure, I agree it's not applicable in many cases.
14:33	borkdude	Ember- I have tried GWT for a while, so I think I know what it means … (yikes)
14:34	Ember-	no, GWT is not SPA
14:34	callen	dnolen: for someone who's mostly trying to build web apps, that's most cases.
14:34	squidz	and some of you have made SPAs in clojure?
14:34	callen	borkdude: ...no.
14:34	Ember-	and it's bad. Cool hack, but bad
14:34	Ember-	squidz: \o
14:34	Ember-	but using plain javascript, not clojurescript
14:34	borkdude	well GWT generates a single page application
14:34	callen	squidz: SPAs aren't all that special when it comes to backend. You're mostly kicking around JSON.
14:34	squidz	Ember-: why not clojurescript?
14:34	callen	squidz: the frontend is usually the more interesting part.
14:34	joevandyk	technomancy: that's too bad :(
14:34	Ember-	squidz: learning clojure still, babysteps :)
14:34	callen	squidz: because you lose convenient access to a lot of really nice libraries.
14:34	Ember-	and that
14:34	callen	squidz: using JS libraries from CLJS can be really irritating.
14:35	callen	that's why JayQ exists.
14:35	technomancy	joevandyk: that was over 6 months ago though; maybe it's gotten better
14:35	dnolen	callen: I've worked on projects where there is no front end person, just designs in HTML/CSS. So it doesn't work in your experience. But perhaps it works in other people's experience. In anycase, not worthy of extended discussion.
14:35	callen	dnolen: I'm just so tired and frustrated with the state of templating being so utterly broken that it shifts the pragmatic decision back over to using Python for my projects.
14:36	TimMc	callen: I still want a pony that can generate markup either on the client or server, depending on whether JS is enabled on the client.
14:36	callen	I hate that I can't reasonably choose to use a great language because batteries aren't included for a critical component of making a web app.
14:36	Ember-	use angular? :) Not that I weren't a fan of separation of concerns in layout and templating logic
14:36	callen	TimMc: I could think of a few ways to go about that. The JS enabled thing is rough though. noscript on the client means you'd be doing an image load callback or something which is effin' weird.
14:37	Ember-	wicket has a great idea, not a fan of wicket and it's hugely verbose way of doing things (plus it's trying to do too much, contain state in backend)
14:37	Ember-	but the component mapping to html is great in it
14:37	callen	I don't want anything that involved, complicated, or holistic.
14:37	Ember-	similar and elegant solution to clojure would be awesomesauce
14:37	squidz	wicket is all ive use so far but i actually like it
14:37	technomancy	Raynes: how's that enlive-like lib coming anyway?
14:37	callen	I want a template library made by somebody who seems to have experience with writing web apps for a living.
14:37	technomancy	callen: ^
14:38	squidz	just seems very Object-Oriented
14:38	solussd	enlive works wonderfully for me working with our front end guy. I "fill in the blanks" with enlive.
14:38	solussd	i cant imagine anything better than "pure html" templates… I hate most templating languages
14:38	Ember-	callen: I hear your pain and suffering. Unfortunately I don't see the need anymore with advanced client side templating libraries
14:38	Ember-	or well, if you need to support browsers without javascript
14:38	TimMc	callen: image load callback? I just mean render the whole page on the server side on first load, then incrementally update the page via either client or server rendering when I capture clicks.
14:39	borkdude	Ember- what does this component do?
14:39	craigbro	switches from enlive to jsoup
14:39	Ember-	borkdude: could you elaborate?
14:39	craigbro	enlive is sloooooooow for large tempaltes
14:39	callen	TimMc: you'd want this to be holistic I take it?
14:39	Ember-	what component
14:39	callen	http://jinja.pocoo.org/ <--- first example. That's how template inheritance, overrides, loops, and map/dictionary data access work in Jinja. Enlive and Hiccup do not compare favourably.
14:39	borkdude	Ember- from wicket
14:39	ivan	is there a better way to define step functions than condp <=?
14:39	Ember-	borkdude: ah
14:39	craigbro	Jsoup can do many of the same things, and I can avoid the cost of converting eveything from java objects to vectors
14:40	Ember-	component is a core concept in wicket, it can do pretty much anything
14:40	Ember-	it can populate text for example into <p> or any html tag
14:40	dnolen	callen: to be honest, it's a known issue. I had a chat w/ Jen Myers (who works at Relevance) at the Clojure Conj. Clojure's web story as far as gracefully integrating w/ modern front end dev practice is still evolving.
14:40	callen	It's all simple, it works how you expect it to, no crazy CSS-reach-in, no need to touch backend.
14:40	Ember-	or it can contain it's own html snippets
14:40	squidz	for me wicket is kind of like developing a swing/swt app
14:40	Ember-	and stuff like that
14:40	Ember-	squidz: it is, but it has a huge problem
14:40	Ember-	1) java and it's verbosity with anonymous classes
14:40	ibdknox	callen: https://github.com/weavejester/comb
14:40	dnolen	callen: fingers crossed she gives a talk about this at Clojure/West, it's an important topic
14:41	callen	dnolen: I've talked to the author of another template library about it, he's thinking about a potential equivalent to something like Jinja.
14:41	Ember-	2) it's trying to do too much: it contains the UI state at server side in HTTP session
14:41	callen	ibdknox: looks a lot like Fleet. Thanks for sharing this!
14:41	Ember-	and due to this it has a LOT of magic under the hood which will bite you in the leg sooner or later
14:41	ibdknox	callen: it is much better than fleet
14:41	Ember-	pretty much the same as Hibernate
14:41	squidz	Ember-: Ember- yes I dont like #2
14:41	borkdude	Ember- is that like webforms in ASP.NET?
14:41	callen	ibdknox: oh, just wondering, what does it do better?
14:41	ibdknox	callen: the impl is like 60 lines
14:42	ibdknox	callen: it's very fast
14:42	Ember-	borkdude: not familiar with webforms
14:42	Ember-	borkdude: http://wicket.apache.org/learn/examples/
14:42	Ember-	you can view the source code from those
14:42	callen	ibdknox: the real question is, what would it take to build this up to something appropriate for writing templates for a web app.
14:42	callen	ibdknox: looks really promising.
14:42	Ember-	it's overly verbose and I don't like it
14:42	callen	seems like you'd still need to build up the machinery for things like template inheritance, injection, overrides, etc.
14:42	Ember-	I mean, we have this search functionality in our app with clojure+angular
14:43	squidz	Ember-: wicket makes doing ajax pretty simple though. Ive never done ajaxy stuff outside of wicket, but I needed zero experience to get ajax enabled components up and running
14:43	ibdknox	callen: you have the full power of clojure, you'd just need a couple convenience functions for those things :)
14:43	Ember-	we have a fully functional search from 3rd party API to browser with less than 20 lines of clojure, 15 lines of javascript and 15 lines of HTML
14:43	TimMc	ivan: "We're sorry, #clojure is currently closed for our monthly templating argument. Please leave a message and we'll get back to you when we return. beep"
14:43	craigbro	oi
14:43	ivan	TimMc: no problem ;)
14:44	callen	ibdknox: yeah I think I might give this a whirl. Thank you very much.
14:44	Ember-	3rd party server takes in a HTTP request, returns XML
14:44	technomancy	(inc TimMc)
14:44	lazybot	⇒ 23
14:44	technomancy
14:44	callen	(inc TimMc)
14:44	lazybot	⇒ 24
14:44	ibdknox	(dec
14:44	ibdknox	(dec TimMc) ; #Clojure is not a place for humor :p
14:44	lazybot	⇒ 23
14:44	TimMc	haha
14:45	TimMc	I mean
14:45	ibdknox	also your karma is getting too high. Gotta take you down a peg ;)
14:45	TimMc	"Yes sir."
14:45	TimMc	I would never laugh in #clojure.
14:45	craigbro	guffaw?
14:45	mdeboard	This is very serious business.
14:45	amalloy	we need a movie-preview announcer's voice to narrate the upcoming KARMA WARS
14:46	pjstadig	"In a world were karam is the most valuable commodity..."
14:46	ibdknox	haha
14:46	squidz	Ember-: so you said you were using fleet mostly right?
14:46	hyPiRion	Say I have the following form: (let [a (foo ?a?)] a). What is the idiomatic way of getting ?a? to point to a here?
14:46	TimMc	ivan: Is your step function returning existing values, or is this more of a control flow thing?
14:47	Ember-	squidz: fleet? not familiar
14:47	squidz	Ember-: sorry, what do you normally use instead of enlive?
14:47	squidz	Ember-: ah right, you come from javaland?
14:47	Ember-	we use enlive for XML parsing
14:47	Ember-	yes, been working in a real project with clojure a bit over two weeks now
14:47	ivan	TimMc: existing values
14:47	Ember-	before that, just random hacking
14:48	Ember-	nothing even remotely serious
14:48	amalloy	hyPiRion: wat?
14:48	ivan	TimMc: it just seemed like a common thing that should exist in some library rather than as code generated by condp
14:48	borkdude	just println to the HTTPServletResponse's outstream guy's, who needs static html files anyway.
14:49	Ember-	squidz: ok, fleet looks like a templating library. No, we use angular.js
14:49	Ember-	and it's templating
14:49	Ember-	simple, efficient. But does not separate layout from templating
14:49	TimMc	ibdknox, callen: comb doesn't have any facility for output escaping. o\__/o
14:49	Ember-	but it does it's templating with style (although I'm not very happy with all the curly braces)
14:50	ibdknox	TimMc: I'm pretty sure with a 60 line codebase it could be added trivially :p
14:50	bbloom	ivan: how about (some pred vector) where vector is a vector of [threshold value] pair or something like that, and pred checks the threshold
14:50	bbloom	ivan: some returns the first item to match the predicate
14:50	TimMc	I can't believe people are still writing templating libs that are not XSS-safe by default.
14:50	Ember-	I really should try LightTable in our project
14:50	bbloom	or you can do (first (filter ...)) to be clearer
14:50	Ember-	have been mostly using the instarepl in it
14:50	Ember-	ibdknox: which is awesome :P
14:50	ivan	bbloom: thanks. I'll give that a try.
14:50	callen	TimMc: fuck it, XSS doesn't even real.
14:51	TimMc	...
14:51	egghead	xss safe ? like what -- xss is a lot more than just escaping <>
14:51	callen	TimMc: well gee willikers we wouldn't be considering using such evil stygian tools like eval'ing unescaped strings all over the place if we had decent template libraries...
14:52	TimMc	Oh... kay...
14:53	hyPiRion	amalloy: nevermind, I think I'll have to work with Y-combinators to make this work
14:53	llasram	callen: OOC, since you have strong opinions about how templating libraries should work, are you developing one?
14:53	TimMc	egghead: I don't mean such as stopping people from doing eval(location.hash.substring(1)) -- just basic context-aware escaping.
14:53	TimMc	Or even just plain ol' escaping by default.
14:53	callen	llasram: I'm awful at parsers. I actually said this to the author of Stencil, who's already planning to make the sort of template library I have in mind.
14:53	Ember-	callen: write your templating with clojure :)
14:53	Ember-	lisp is trivial to parse
14:53	callen	llasram: but until he does, I'd like to convey my suffering to the rest of you.
14:54	callen	Ember-: that's called Hiccup.
14:54	hyPiRion	amalloy: I realised that I was asking how I could pass the result of a value as a parameter to the function call which realized the value
14:54	Ember-	callen: yup
14:54	Ember-	but do it the way you like it :)
14:54	callen	That...is not what I have in mind.
14:54	hyPiRion	Since Clojure can't send unbound variables, that's rather hard.
14:54	callen	Ember-: http://jinja.pocoo.org/ I want this.
14:54	jkkramer	callahad: https://github.com/sjl/dram - release date TBD
14:54	Ember-	callen: no offense, but that looks horrible to me :)
14:55	Ember-	just what I don't want to use
14:55	jkkramer	oops, callen ^^
14:55	ro_st	what's wrong with Hiccup?!
14:55	callen	Ember-: well, Jinja and Django templates have suited many projects for me for the last 4+ years.
14:55	TimMc	hyPiRion: Go on...
14:55	callen	jkkramer: I know about Dram. I'm just kinda hoping Losh picks it back up.
14:55	Ember-	callen: I understand and not saying that it wouldn't work
14:55	callen	jkkramer: if he doesn't, I'll have to wait on Santiago.
14:55	hyPiRion	I don't know if there's more to discuss, heh
14:55	TimMc	hyPiRion: I smell a code horror, and I want to know more!
14:55	bbloom	the reason there are 39385935 templating languages is because there are lots of different use cases and many people haven't explicitly stated their use cases and design goals
14:56	Ember-	but you previously said you'd like a templating library for clojure which has been developed by a guy doing web apps for living
14:56	Ember-	well, I do web apps for living and I wouldn't desing a templating system like that
14:56	Ember-	it's a matter of taste which is good
14:56	callen	jkkramer: the last commit was, "Basic template file loading!"
14:56	bbloom	if you want a template language for designers, than maybe django/jinja is a reasonable choice
14:56	callen	jkkramer: very encouraging.
14:56	bbloom	i've never worked with a designer smart enough to figure out django templates, but dumb enough not to be able to learn HAML
14:56	bbloom	i figure they could learn hiccup to
14:56	bbloom	o
14:57	hyPiRion	TimMc: Okay, it's basically like this: Create a recursive merge function by calling e.g. merge-with
14:57	callen	bbloom: there's a lot to Jinja that makes it my template lang of choice.
14:57	callen	bbloom: not just that a designer can use it.
14:57	bbloom	callen: like what?
14:58	hyPiRion	TimMc: So (fn [& r] (apply merge-with merge r)) would merge two levels only.
14:59	callen	bbloom: registering template filters and custom tags for extending the functionality to match your use-case without repetitiously processing the data on the backend logic, template extension, overrides, and injection that actually work really well to eliminate duplicate logic/markup, syntax that is both simple and easy and doesn't break down once you hit a moderately complicated use-case, good separation of frontend/backend in terms of markup/layout an
14:59	borkdude	"Clojure html templating libraries: the grand tour", free blog post idea =)
14:59	hyPiRion	TimMc: That's solved through (fn rec [& r] (apply merge-with rec r)) usually, but I can't do that since I'm calling a function which expands that fn
14:59	callen	borkdude: it'd just be me walking around with a baton, pointing at things and going, "so this sucks...this sucks too. Oh yeah, that definitely sucks."
14:59	hyPiRion	/s/fn/fn-form/
15:00	ro_st	borkdude, callen: it'd be interesting if you included _why_ it sucks
15:00	borkdude	ro_st probably because it's not ninja, like clojure is not common lisp
15:00	callen	ro_st: I could talk for weeks about why 99% of templating libraries are awful.
15:01	ro_st	i don't doubt it.
15:01	callen	for the record, I hate CL-WHO too.
15:01	bbloom	callen: every single one of those use cases can be more directly accomplished via functions. jinja reifies particular signatures of functions into particular convinenent syntaxes. but if you're a programmer, you should be just fine writing normal functions....
15:01	callen	bbloom: you're missing...the damn point.
15:01	callen	bbloom: I'm not always writing the templates
15:01	callen	bbloom: most projects are not one dude.
15:01	callen	bbloom: I need to make the template filters and tags ahead of time, in the backend code, register them with the template handler, THEN let the designer use what I created
15:01	bbloom	callen: which is exactly what i'm saying: if you have non programmers on your teamwriting templates, then you've got a justification for using jinja
15:02	bbloom	and you told me that wasn't the reason :-P
15:02	callen	because if I don't do that, it'll end up in JS somewhere.
15:02	callen	bbloom: I said that wasn't the only reason.
15:02	callen	bbloom: there's a lot about Jinja that makes my life simpler as a lone programmer, but it's positively critical when I have a frontend guy.
15:02	TimMc	hyPiRion: So how does this end up with you trying to pass around unbound vars?
15:03	callen	replicating even the simple example here: http://jinja.pocoo.org/ would take way too much work in Hiccup and Enlive.
15:03	callen	you could get sorta close in Stencil, but it'd be laborious and involve {{{ }}}
15:03	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
15:03	hyPiRion	TimMc: I have a function foo which takes a function and returns a function, I want to pass the returned function as the argument function.
15:04	hyPiRion	Hence the fun.
15:04	ro_st	callen: why do you want a mix of html and something else?
15:05	callen	ro_st: https://github.com/sjl/dram#why
15:05	callen	ro_st: just read the "why".
15:05	ro_st	that, imho, is why 99% of TLs suck. they get soupy even with trivial examples
15:06	Ember-	callen: I know it is client side, but with angular.js those examples are less verbose, more like normal HTML and very designer friendly
15:06	devinus	will 1.5 have a PersistentQueue literal?
15:06	Ember-	if you really need server side templating then it's of course off limits
15:06	hyPiRion	I mean, (fn bounce [args] (apply (foo bounce) args)) works, but it's hairy and computationally heavy.
15:06	hyPiRion	Or not hairy, but I don't know if it's idiomatic.
15:06	dnolen	hmm what's the dynamic var in Clojure that you can check for AOT compiles?
15:07	callen	hyPiRion: apply is pretty bad in Clojure.
15:07	tomoj	compile-files
15:07	callen	Ember-: I'd like to avoid resorting to an SPA if possible.
15:07	tomoj	I think you mean?
15:07	hyPiRion	callen: Slow you mean?
15:07	dnolen	tomoj: yes, that's it thanks.
15:07	Ember-	callen: I can appreciate that if you have a good reason for that
15:07	callen	hyPiRion: why not.
15:07	Ember-	but in my experience SPA is way better than traditional
15:08	callen	Ember-: because I've done 100% SPAs before and it turned into a mess for usability and accessibility.
15:08	Ember-	even if you have to tolerate javascript and it's quirks
15:08	callen	standard web apps are better unless you have something very specific going on.
15:08	callen	I don't mind JS.
15:08	egghead	can anyone who is familiar with carmine (the redis client) explain this to me? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7703 is it just that with-redis (wcar) only makes one trip to redis?
15:08	Ember-	callen: ok, well. No offense but someone in your team did not know how to build SPA then :)
15:08	hyPiRion	callen: I think I lost you there
15:08	callen	Ember-: maybe so.
15:08	Ember-	the largest SPA project I've done had over 40kloc of javascript in it
15:08	callen	hyPiRion: just benchmark it, you'll see what I mean very quickly.
15:09	Ember-	and hundreds of thousands of lines of java code in the backend
15:09	TimMc	callen: How about you explain what you mean.
15:09	hyPiRion	callen: Oh, I know it's slow. That's not the issue here though
15:09	Ember-	it was quite manageable, had great performance and usability
15:09	hyPiRion	I just wonder what's idiomatic to do.
15:09	callen	TimMc: as soon as somebody makes a template library that doesn't make me want to take the protesting buddhist monk way out of life with a bucket of gasoline.
15:09	crease	I'm having trouble with cl-format… shouldn't (cl-format nil "~2@* ~D" 1 2 3) give you " 3"? I'm getting " 1"
15:10	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format])
15:10	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
15:10	TimMc	callen: Yeah, I'm not in that discussion anymore, sorry.
15:10	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format]])
15:10	clojurebot	nil
15:10	hyPiRion	,(cl-format nil "~2* ~D" 1 2 3)
15:10	clojurebot	" 3"
15:11	Ember-	callen: well, fortunately for you someone is making that Jinja version for clojure
15:11	callen	I didn't know people actually wanted to use cl-format.
15:11	callen	Ember-: if you mean dram, he hasn't worked on it in awhile.
15:11	Ember-	fork and pick up it and finish the work?
15:11	callen	Ember-: Clango is in a similar state.
15:11	callen	Ember-: I'd end up replicating the work Santiago wants to do. I'd rather not trip over him, he has more experience writing template libraries.
15:12	Ember-	lure the original Jinja developers to the Clojure side? :)
15:12	callen	actually, Mitsuhiko is a good target for that
15:12	callen	he's been pissed about Python 3 for awhile.
15:12	Ember-	go for it
15:13	Ember-	I really mean it
15:13	hyPiRion	crease: huh, I think I need to read the docs
15:13	callen	Ember-: I already asked him in #flask.
15:13	hyPiRion	,(cl-format nil "~D ~0@* ~D" 1 2 3)
15:13	clojurebot	"1 1"
15:13	hyPiRion	,(cl-format nil "~D ~1@* ~D" 1 2 3)
15:13	clojurebot	"1 2"
15:13	hyPiRion	,(cl-format nil "~D ~2@* ~D" 1 2 3)
15:13	clojurebot	"1 1"
15:13	hyPiRion	Either that, or this is not working properly.
15:15	hiredman	win 15
15:15	crease	hyPiRion: yeah, maybe it's a bug… the doc says ~2@* is an absolute goto to the third argument. Maybe I'm missing something tho. It's a kind of scary doc.
15:16	devinus	technomancy: do you use elein at all?
15:17	hyPiRion	crease: yup, it's a bug. SBCL, clisp and clozure gives "1 3" for the last one there
15:17	hyPiRion	I'll check JIRA for bugs
15:18	callen	devinus: pretty sure he lives inside a perma-running lein terminal for that.
15:18	callen	devinus: so, "no"
15:18	devinus	callen: that's what i figured
15:18	callen	does explain why the lein command mode thingy exists though. He made it for himself, haha.
15:19	devinus	i'm trying to figure out the latest emacs/clojure stuff, trying to figure out the difference between clojure-mode and clojure-test-mode
15:19	devinus	then there's clojure-project-mode
15:20	crease	hyPiRion: thanks! and appreciative clicking noises for firing up those languages. I don't see it in JIRA...
15:21	zerokarmaleft	what does clojure-project-mode have that clojure-mode doesn't cover?
15:22	cark	hum this FXML thing in javafx feels a bit half-assed
15:23	devinus	zerokarmaleft: no idea, trying to figure that out
15:24	devinus	then there's cljdoc
15:25	devinus	i need technomancy's technomastery me thinks
15:25	hyPiRion	crease: I tested it with 1.5.0-beta2, and it's still there. Want me to add a ticket for it?
15:26	hyPiRion	It's either me or you.
15:26	callen	devinus: it's 12:18 pm in the bay area, he's probably at lunch.
15:27	devinus	callen: good call
15:28	callen	devinus: not really. I noticed I was hungry. I'm in south bay.
15:29	hyPiRion	crease: I'll add a ticket if you don't mind.
15:29	devinus	callen: i'm guessing the bay area is the only place to get jobs that let you work with Clojure these days? :P
15:30	craigbro	devinus: we're hiring, remote workers too
15:30	craigbro	oh, sorry, didn't detect your sarcasm
15:30	clj_newb_2345	what is the most robust (i.e. not adhoc) way of getting the maybe monad inside of clojure?
15:30	clj_newb_2345	(I'd like to use it together with map)
15:31	Ember-	devinus: I live in Finland and I am working on a Clojure project
15:31	Ember-	pretty far away from the bay area :)
15:31	devinus	craigbro: half-sarcasm. i've looked around the austin area for people doing Clojure stuff
15:31	devinus	haven't seen much
15:31	matthavener	devinus: i think mass relevance does some clojure
15:31	matthavener	or scala
15:32	callen	devinus: basically, yes, but I don't get to work in Clojure. I can't convince my boss the community has good templating libraries.
15:32	Ember-	and push your own organization to clojure?
15:32	Ember-	that's the way we started to use it
15:32	Ember-	internal evaluation after developers brought it up
15:33	Ember-	still baby steps, only 2 projects using clojure currently out of maybe 70 but the way we are progressing and just Getting Things Done(tm) I have a good feeling that more clojure projects will be coming...
15:33	callen	I'm considering evaluating Scala/Play for a project since the template story there is pretty good.
15:33	ivan	https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/algo/monads.clj#L354 <- would an explicit Just/Nothing make little sense in Clojure?
15:34	devinus	callen: wait, is it really templating holding you back? i thought you were being sarcastic
15:34	clj_newb_2345	ivan: defmonad looks like a macor worth undersstanding
15:35	callen	devinus: it'd sap too much productivity to justify using Clojure. It tips the scales in favor of using Python or Scala.
15:35	callen	devinus: it's that bad.
15:35	craigbro	callen: really? Mazel Tov
15:35	Raynes	callen: I think that if it is really that if you need django, chances are django is your best option.
15:35	craigbro	as if templating was a ahrd problem worthy of more than, oh, i don't know, 50 lines of code
15:36	callen	Raynes: I have a forthcoming project that will require a more...industrial language than python.
15:36	callen	Raynes: I'd like to have a few projects down before that happens.
15:36	craigbro	Raynes: agreed actually.
15:36	Raynes	I haven't had your problems with templating.
15:36	callen	Raynes: you use Stencil.
15:36	Raynes	We obviously have different needs.
15:36	callen	Raynes: it's your git repo that I use to guide working with Stencil when I do make things in Clojure
15:36	Raynes	But the constant shitting on of all the templating libs is getting a bit old, no offense.
15:37	callen	Raynes: but just because I was able to get it done, does it mean that it's a sensible choice wrt productivity.
15:37	Raynes	The biggest problem I see is that nobody has finished that one you linked too a few days ago.
15:37	devinus	callen: what are you looking for exactly? DTL in Clojure?
15:37	callen	Raynes: Santiago (Stencil author) sees the same problem I do.
15:38	callen	Raynes: he's just less vocal about it.
15:38	callen	don't act as if I'm some crazy man from the mountains who alone sees this problem.
15:38	Ember-	callen: I hear you!
15:39	Ember-	throw clojure at HTML/CSS guy's face and he'll punch you
15:39	Raynes	I'm not disagreeing with your desire for such a thing, just that we don't need to be so angry at the existing templating libs. Lots of people like them and use them, and lots of people put lots of work into them. They work really well for most people. I wrote one myself. You just want something different which is totally understandable.
15:39	Raynes	Ember-: Hiccup isn't the only templating lib he is talking about.
15:39	Ember-	yeah I know
15:40	callen	Raynes: if you know a better way to spur the development of something legitimately appropriate for building a web app with other people, I'd love to hear it.
15:40	Raynes	I think you're missing my point completely.
15:40	callen	I didn't know you had one, save to complain about my complaining.
15:40	Raynes	Okay.
15:40	Raynes	I should have known better.
15:41	callen	I asked for an actionable improvement to my approach, you demurred. That leaves me with no way to understand what you want to achieve.
15:41	brehaut	callen: shitting on developer set A does not cause people in developer set B to think 'oh! i'd like develop an alternative' it causes them to think 'glad im not getting shat on right now'
15:41	ivan	I'm looking at enlive for the first time and completely befuddled by why I would load some existing HTML and manipulate it in another file with some Clojure
15:41	callen	LOL ^^ you know what? I don't even need to say anything. I'll just let the truth speak for itself.
15:41	ivan	I guess I'll have to play with hiccup and see where the brick wall is
15:42	HolyJak	Raynes: Your point seemed to by quite clear to me, though :-) Don't fall into dispair.
15:42	Raynes	brehaut: Your IRC client has an ignore feature designed specifically for trolls.
15:42	Raynes	Exercise it.
15:42	brehaut	Raynes: it does, but it comes unstuck
15:42	devinus	i think there's plenty of room for a logic-ful (as opposed to a logic-less like Stencil) templating lib for Clojure
15:42	devinus	is there not?
15:42	Raynes	Sure.
15:42	callen	devinus: there's a great one called http://jinja.pocoo.org/
15:42	callen	devinus: just need a Clojure version.
15:43	Raynes	devinus: Something like jinja would be great for Clojure.
15:43	brehaut	devinus: why not just use a java library in that case? there are heaps of options
15:43	devinus	callen: right
15:43	devinus	yeah, or not even like jinga
15:43	hyPiRion	woa, you guys are still going on with the template discussion? It's been 90 minutes.
15:43	dnolen	haha
15:43	devinus	the language it uses could be clojure-inspired
15:43	dnolen	hyPiRion: my thoughts exactly
15:43	Raynes	devinus: But that doesn't mean we should shit all over the existing libraries that other people have made. But that appears to be callen's motive.
15:43	devinus	instead of jinjaish
15:43	callen	I don't really want to talk about Enlive
15:43	devinus	Raynes: i must have missed a lot of previous context :P
15:43	callen	I want something better to crop up.
15:44	Ember-	callen: please use term "different" instead of "better" to keep this civil
15:44	callen	they ignored me anyway, but noted.
15:44	Ember-	you're stabbing someone's baby the way you are going with your argument
15:45	Raynes	ivan: I wrote a lib similar to Enlive that does that too (laser). It's simply a way of transforming HTML using selectors instead of markers in code such as you would do with mustache. Also, if you use hiccup your HTML is written in a Clojure DSL that a designer probably can't read or want to mess with.
15:45	Ember-	the father of that baby won't be happy
15:45	devinus	this honestly shouldn't be too hard. i've worked on erlydtl for erlang and written my own mustache libs before. a clojinja would be relatively easy i think
15:46	m0smith	I chose stencil for just that reason: a designer needs to be able to work with it as well
15:46	callen	the revolution begins! /me cackles
15:46	brehaut	m0smith: my expiernece is designers are entirely capable of working with plain HTML too :P
15:47	hyPiRion	devinus: Well, it's great news that it shouldn't be too hard - an even better reason for you to create your own solution :)
15:47	Raynes	ivan: The point is to keep your code separate from your logic. Does that make sense?
15:47	devinus	hyPiRion: yes :P the only problem is i'm on page like 160 of JoC
15:47	m0smith	brehaut: They ceratinly are but clojure data structures are a bit of a stretch
15:47	ivan	Raynes: yeah, but I have the need to see some rendering logic with the HTML structure
15:47	joevandyk	anyone find rendering html templates to be a bottleneck ever? i found that happened a lot with rails
15:47	hyPiRion	devinus: don't stop ;)
15:47	brehaut	m0smith: enlive does not use clojure data structures for templates. it uses plain HTML.
15:48	joevandyk	(possibly it was related to slow view helpers and route generation)
15:48	Raynes	ivan: I'll be rewriting refheap's views with laser soon. Keep an eye out.
15:48	brehaut	m0smith: that goes for a number of other libs too (tinsel, laser)
15:49	ivan	Raynes: cool, I'll check it out
15:49	callen	ivan: it's like Enlive
15:49	brehaut	"i dont understand how to use X" is not the same as "X is bad". Nor is it a condemnation of anyone not understanding X.
15:50	callen	there is such a thing as understanding just fine, but being horrified nevertheless. Of course it's a lot easier to think your position is tenable if you assume all who don't share it are ignoramuses.
15:51	m0smith	brehaut: Yes I see what you mean. I prefer the mustache metaphor as it gives the designer a wider range of options without breaking the clojure coe
15:51	m0smith	code
15:52	m0smith	for example [:p#message] can be frgaile if the designer decides to not use the <p>
15:52	brehaut	m0smith: do take the time to look at a transformational templating system though. its a different formulation of that idea where the designer _only_ worries about html and css etc, and doesnt concern themselves with population at all
15:53	m0smith	brehaut: do you have a link? The stuff I am seeing is just some tutorials
15:53	brehaut	m0smith: no more fragile than passing a map of keys through to the designer. you need to have some sort of interface/schema between the two sections of code nomatter what the soliution you use is
15:53	Raynes	m0smith: I had someone give me that exact same argument a few days ago, and it seems valid enough.
15:54	Raynes	brehaut: I think the point is that with tags you can change what they are without breaking anything in a lot of cases, whereas laser and friends all require an exact DOM structure in order for them to work reliably.
15:54	Raynes	Well, not exact.
15:54	m0smith	brehaut: True. It just seems easier for our designers to leave the key names in tact
15:54	Raynes	But still.
15:55	brehaut	m0smith: theres two tutorials. both are somewhat hard slog, but give them a crack. the actual documenation for enlive is somewaht mind boggling when you dont know enlive already.
15:56	brehaut	Raynes: i understand that.
15:56	gtrak	meh... there are java template libs, too... clojure ones implement java.util.Map
15:56	gtrak	clojure maps*
15:56	brehaut	gtrak: exactly.
15:57	m0smith	brehaut: It feels a bit like JQuery for clojure
15:57	m0smith	I like JQuery so that is not a slam (BTW)
15:58	brehaut	m0smith: there are parallels
16:00	gtrak	callen: does something like this float your boat?
16:00	gtrak	https://developers.google.com/closure/templates/docs/helloworld_java
16:03	brehaut	gtrak: i've also heard that StringTemplate can be pretty good. (and stupidly fast)
16:03	gtrak	I even found the map line for you: http://code.google.com/p/closure-templates/source/browse/trunk/java/src/com/google/template/soy/tofu/SoyTofu.java?r=21#131
16:03	gtrak	brehaut: I hated it when I tried to use it for even a toy program
16:03	brehaut	gtrak: hah ok
16:03	gtrak	I can show you an integration though
16:04	brehaut	sure
16:04	gtrak	https://github.com/gtrak/garytrakhman.com/blob/91813c7d0b6206e2821aadbf2b47c18135d5a6e1/src/garytrakhman/stview.clj
16:05	gtrak	there's some extra bits like associating a JS file per view... I couldn't make myself happy with it though
16:05	gtrak	the variable scoping's a huge pain
16:06	devinus	i know there's a condition-restart lib for clojure
16:06	devinus	can anybody remember what it is?
16:07	technomancy	devinus: error-kit, but I don't think it's recommended
16:08	devinus	technomancy: there was nother one too
16:08	devinus	another*
16:08	crease	hyPiRion: ticket's a good idea, thanks
16:09	devinus	technomancy: also you're back!
16:10	gtrak	here's the bit in closure-templates that takes a map, anyway: http://code.google.com/p/closure-templates/source/browse/trunk/java/src/com/google/template/soy/tofu/SoyTofu.java?r=21#131
16:10	devinus	technomancy: i have some clojure/emacs questions for you. your talk on leiningen inspired me
16:10	devinus	technomancy: can you tell me what the clojure-project-mode does that clojure-mode doesn't?
16:13	zerokarmaleft	devinus: https://github.com/psyllo/emacsenations, i don't think technomancy authored clojure-project-mode
16:13	technomancy	devinus: never heard of clojure-project-mode
16:13	devinus	ah, it seems it extends project-mode
16:14	devinus	there's also cljdoc
16:14	technomancy	I use ,,find-file-in-project for larger codebases
16:14	technomancy	oh wait, this isn't #emacs; no fsbot
16:14	devinus	technomancy: i have find-file-in-project installed after your endorsement
16:14	technomancy	anyway, I think most of the project stuff around emacs is kind of silly; the only thing I need is scoped file opening
16:14	zerokarmaleft	from a glance, it looks like it does some project-wide string searching and source-file/matching-test-file navigation
16:15	technomancy	I highly recommend using M-x rgrep (or rgrep from eshell) for searches
16:15	technomancy	when you can't use M-.
16:15	technomancy	clojure-mode has some functionality for jumping between implementation and test, but it's not great
16:15	technomancy	I wish he would have fixed the existing implementation instead of creating a new one =\
16:17	callen	gtrak: not at all. My boat sinks.
16:18	gtrak	ha, it seems to me similar to django's
16:19	callen	gtrak: you don't appear to have used Django much.
16:19	gtrak	nope... http://www.jangod.org/
16:19	gtrak	'inspired by django'
16:20	gtrak	can you tell I don't work with designers? :-)
16:20	callen	gtrak: that's not what you linked me
16:20	callen	gtrak: you linked me a different library.
16:20	gtrak	ah, yea, that's what I found just now
16:20	callen	...
16:21	callen	that's for java and java classes
16:21	callen	I need something that works with maps.
16:21	gtrak	I'm not sure why closure-templates doesn't match your requirements... but perhaps that does the trick
16:21	callen	No.
16:34	tpope	(v/length-of :password :within (drop 5 (range)))
16:34	tpope	is there a less obtuse way to write this?
16:35	gtrak	(->> (range) (drop 5) (v/length-of :password :within)) ?
16:35	TimMc	What does length-of do?
16:35	TimMc	haha
16:36	amalloy	(nthnext password 4)? like, i don't know about this crazy validation library, but checking that a seq is at least 5 elements long is not hard in normal life
16:36	tpope	it's from validateur to check if a password is at least x chars
16:37	gtrak	err... I want my validations as data!?
16:37	tpope	the existing implementation has (range 5 20) and I was like "why enforce a maximum length"
16:37	xeqi	(numericality-of (comp length :password) :gte 5) ?
16:38	technomancy	partial <= 5
16:39	gtrak	(= 5 (count (take 5 my-seq))
16:39	xeqi	wonder if you could just pass (comp (partial <= 5) length :password) to the validation-set
16:39	tpope	xeqi that's what we're trying
16:40	rbxbx	xeqi: that would work except it doesn't adhere toe the contract of a validator fn
16:40	xeqi	ah, not quite, needs to return a [boolean #{errors}] pair
16:40	rbxbx	needs to do something like... yes
16:40	technomancy	wait what
16:40	technomancy	why not just check for an empty set?
16:41	xeqi	technomancy: how would you fail without providing any useful info?
16:41	technomancy	can't tell if serious =)
16:42	rbxbx	technomancy could if not using a library, but in order to adhere to what validateur expects from validator fns...
16:42	technomancy	rbxbx: yeah, arguing against the larger design, not the suggestions here
16:43	rbxbx	technomancy gotcha.
16:43	gfredericks	why did lein/maven just say something about looking for a snapshot of thneed?
16:43	gtrak	gosh.. validation as a Domain seems ill-suited to a DSL
16:44	gfredericks	I don't see thneed anywhere in my deps tree
16:44	technomancy	gfredericks: I thought I added an exclusion for that or something
16:44	technomancy	not sure
16:45	rbxbx	technomancy gfredericks that has happened to me many times.
16:46	technomancy	rbxbx, gfredericks: running lein from source?
16:46	rbxbx	yes.
16:46	gfredericks	no, just a regular installation
16:46	rbxbx	er
16:46	rbxbx	2.0.0-preview10
16:47	hyPiRion	I've seen it pop up from time to time, not sure whether it has been on the preview or master though
16:48	gfredericks	arrays in postgres: korma doesn't seem to handle them correctly on insert. Should I expect clojure.java.jdbc to be any better?
16:48	gfredericks	(specifically korma generates "(?,?,?)" when it ought to "{?,?,?}")
16:48	technomancy	ok, so I think master has the exclusions in place for thneed though I don't recall the details
16:50	xeqi	gfredericks: thneed snapshot was used in the latest trammel, which is used by some versions of lein-jacker, which is used be some plugins
16:50	xeqi	I'd guess it came from there
16:50	gfredericks	xeqi: okay, thanks
16:50	hyPiRion	Travis doesn't pick up thneed though, so I assume it's not from lein itself
16:51	xeqi	for example, lein-ring pulls it in sometimes
16:51	tomoj	clojure.java.jdbc would generate neither "(?,?,?)" nor "{?,?,?}", would it?
16:51	gfredericks	tomoj: I don't know. What happens if you give it a vector as a value?
16:52	xeqi	rbxbx: ^
16:52	gfredericks	I was about to try it out myself.
16:52	rbxbx	xeqi okay. Thanks.
16:52	frozenlock	Going through the slime->nrepl transition... I used to be able to send some interesting info to my REPL using a simple `print' function while running an application. (For example, I could see any webhooks received). However `print' doesn't seem to be sending the output to the REPL. Am I mistaken?
16:52	frozenlock	(print in nrepl that is)
16:53	moogatronic	frozenlock: you mean like (print "some string") ?
16:53	technomancy	frozenlock: possibly different flushing behaviour? see if println is different
16:53	moogatronic	should be appearing. Also there's a nrepl-server buffer that nicely captures log4j output
16:54	cark	frozenlock: your print is hapenning in some other thread, where out is not bound
16:54	llasram	frozenlock: When I print form other than the main REPL thread, I see messages go to the JVM process's stdout instead of out
16:55	msamiry	hello all
16:55	frozenlock	Oh I see o_O
16:55	cark	frozenlock: i usually define a function debug like so (let [o out] (defn debug [s] (println o s)))
16:55	cark	tho i'm not sure about order of parameters on println
16:55	msamiry	please I'd like to ask a question
16:55	technomancy	~anyone
16:55	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
16:56	hyPiRion	msamiry: fire away!
16:56	msamiry	is there something in clojure like numpy.linspace
16:57	TimMc	What does it do?
16:57	msamiry	Return evenly spaced numbers over a specified interval
16:58	msamiry	numpy.linspace(start, stop, num=50, endpoint=True, retstep=False)
16:58	amalloy	&(doc range)
16:58	lazybot	⇒ "([] [end] [start end] [start end step]); Returns a lazy seq of nums from start (inclusive) to end (exclusive), by step, where start defaults to 0, step to 1, and end to infinity."
16:58	TimMc	msamiry: So, if asked for 3 numbers in 0..20, what would it give back?
16:58	cark	frozenlock: look at this : https://gist.github.com/4332383
16:58	TimMc	amalloy: Not absolutely trivially.
16:59	msamiry	numpy.linspace(0,2,1000) will give a list of 1000 item between 0 and 2 evenly devided
16:59	TimMc	Oh, not just integers?
17:00	TimMc	Then range could work after all -- although you'd want to watch for error propagation.
17:00	gtrak	cark, if it's in a different thread, send the message to an agent or something
17:00	TimMc	*accumulation
17:00	cark	gtrak: this is quick and dirty debugging
17:00	msamiry	no not just integers
17:00	hyPiRion	,(range 0 2 (/ (- 2 0) 4)) ; not correct, but going there.
17:00	clojurebot	(0 1/2 1N 3/2)
17:00	cark	gtrak: if you want something serious, use a logging tool
17:00	gtrak	cark: future's quicker
17:01	gtrak	and it uses the same threadpool
17:01	TimMc	msamiry: The incanter library might have something ready-made, if you don't mind pulling that in.
17:01	cark	gtrak: can't be quicker than my quick and dirty thing =P
17:02	cark	gtrak: surely could be more correct tho
17:02	amalloy	&((fn linspace [start stop num] (take num (range start Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY (/ (- stop start) (dec num))))) 0 20 3)
17:02	lazybot	⇒ (0 10 20)
17:02	Fauno1	&(+ 5 3)
17:02	lazybot	⇒ 8
17:02	Fauno1	o_O
17:02	gtrak	cark: yours will break if out is rebound, since it captures the value at initialization
17:02	TimMc	Fauno1: Not the answer you expected?
17:03	cark	gtrak: i observed some mixing of log output with this, the agent way is indeed better, but best as i said is a logging framework
17:03	cark	gtrak: works for me !
17:03	cark	technomancy: haha yes
17:03	technomancy	(actually just "framework" would be enough)
17:04	brehaut	dont anyone else say it, or something unknowable will show up and destroy our sanity
17:04	TimMc	technomancy: Just wait until you see my JPEG rendering framework.
17:04	hyPiRion	,((fn linspace [min max n] (let [step (/ (- max min) (dec n))] (range min (+ max step) step))) 0 20 3)
17:04	clojurebot	(0 10 20)
17:04	frozenlock	cark: thanks!
17:05	gert	Hi all, we're working on a cljs mocking tool and we would like to use something like with-redefs in clojurescript -- we're using binding to temporarily bind defined functions to their mocked versions, but that generates a lot of "... not declared dynamic" warnings. What's the best way to go about this?
17:06	amalloy	brehaut: i imagine the next mention of "logging framework" would gradually turn into http://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/625403
17:06	brehaut	haha
17:07	cark	woah was digging my biggest project for the logging thing i have in it, and it still uses c.c.def and c.c.duck-streams
17:07	brehaut	amalloy: i found an accurate diagram on wikipedia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/28/Azathoth.jpg
17:08	dnolen	gert: probably need an official `with-redefs` that works like `bindings` minus the warnings, open a ticket in JIRA
17:08	msamiry	@TimMc @hyPiRion @amalloy thanks, I appreciate ur help
17:08	gfredericks	so if I want to use arrays in postgres am I best off patching clojure.java.jdbc to handle them?
17:09	gfredericks	there's no existing clojure lib that does this well?
17:09	technomancy	amalloy: ... wow.
17:09	crease	man, backbutton.el's great
17:09	cark	it indeed uses an agent, a ref and does daily log file rotation, the whole of which is about 30 lines of code...
17:09	gert	dnolen: cheers. as a temporary workaround, we're trying to figure out how to set cljs-warn-on-dynamic to false from leiningen when we're running our tests, but not sure how to do that
17:10	technomancy	gfredericks: I think it would go deeper than c.j.jdbc to the actual underlying jdbc drivers?
17:10	gfredericks	technomancy: I'm not sure what that statement implies
17:10	gfredericks	certainly the details involve the driver...
17:10	technomancy	gfredericks: oh never mind I'm thinking of the json datatype
17:11	technomancy	carry on
17:11	dnolen	gert: are you using lein-cljsbuild?
17:11	gert	yes we are
17:11	brehaut	postgres's json datatype intrigues me. Im thinking of porting my site from couchdb to postgres and using it as a datamullet
17:12	dnolen	gert: k not sure how that's done but you just need to bind that to false when calling lein-cljsbuild to compile the files. I don't think we provide a fine grained way to tweak warnings yet via build options.
17:12	dnolen	no sure how things are handled in lein-cljsbuild I mean as far as where you need to set up the binding
17:12	dnolen	I mean
17:12	technomancy	brehaut: I don't think the underlying jdbc driver supports it yet
17:13	brehaut	technomancy: ah :/
17:13	technomancy	but yeah, it looks like it could replace document DBs nicely once it does
17:13	technomancy	someone told me that postgres is the emacs of DBs
17:13	gert	thanks dnolen, we'll do some more digging
17:13	brehaut	nightmare to set up but does everything once you succeed?
17:13	brehaut	sounds apt
17:15	ynniv	I'm having issues with AOT compilation, but I'm not compiling on purpose
17:15	TimMc	"datamullet"...
17:15	ynniv	I think this is due to import / use?
17:15	technomancy	ynniv: do you have :main in project.clj?
17:15	TimMc	Do you have any protocols or defrecords?
17:15	brehaut	TimMc: business (relational) in the front, party (adhoc blobs) in the back
17:16	brehaut	TimMc: originally meant for a system that uses an SQLDB with a NoSQL db
17:16	ynniv	i have no protocols or defrecords, but I do have a :main
17:16	technomancy	ynniv: try :main ^:skip-aot my.ns
17:16	TimMc	brehaut: Hmm, in that case I misunderstand the pg/json usage.
17:16	technomancy	ynniv: the next version of lein won't require that, FWIW
17:17	ynniv	that sounds good, because ^:skip-aot is pretty magical
17:17	brehaut	TimMc: Im not sure i can explain it sorry :/
17:17	TimMc	technomancy: lein 2 defaults to non-AOT?
17:17	technomancy	ynniv: it used to be that :main was only used for uberjars, but these days it's usually used for lein run instead
17:18	TimMc	brehaut: Ah, relational calls producing JSON blobs?
17:18	ynniv	yes, I'm using it for lein(2) run.
17:18	technomancy	TimMc: better to be explicit about AOT instead of magically flipping it on and having a hidden switch to turn off the magic
17:18	TimMc	technomancy: Man, who wants it for uberjars anyhow? ;-P
17:19	TimMc	s/;/:/
17:19	technomancy	TimMc: I tell ya, back in the day it was all uberjars all the time
17:19	TimMc	all AOT'd uberjars, too
17:19	TimMc	Let me tell you about this one plugin...
17:19	ynniv	uberWar is still very useful
17:19	technomancy	lein 1.0.0 actually compiled everything by default
17:20	technomancy	that didn't last long
17:20	crease	Anyone know if it's possible to extend protocols over primitive types?
17:20	crease	not having much luck :(
17:21	ynniv	(inc technomancy)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ 42
17:21	ynniv	wow! congrats!
17:21	TimMc	brehaut: I somehow thought it was a JSON-ish interface backed by relational stuff. :-)
17:21	TimMc	ibdknox! We need a downvote in here!
17:21	AimHere	(dec TimMc)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ 22
17:22	TimMc	oh no!
17:22	AimHere	I think we got one
17:22	technomancy	(dec inc)
17:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:22	TimMc	(inc dec)
17:22	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:22	dnolen	crease: you can extend the object versions of the primitives
17:23	ppppaul	would someone be able to help me with a datomic issue
17:23	ppppaul	i'm in the datomic channel
17:23	crease	dnolen: it is so! thanks!
17:24	hyPiRion	(inc TimMc)
17:24	lazybot	⇒ 23
17:24	TimMc	a good number
17:25	hyPiRion	$karma TimMc
17:25	lazybot	TimMc has karma 23.
17:25	AimHere	And only yesterday I made an illuminatus reference.
17:26	craigbro	(inc foo)
17:26	gman_	Hi all can someone tell me what an expression like header->body means?
17:26	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:26	craigbro	(inc craibro)
17:26	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:26	craigbro	(inc craigbro)
17:26	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
17:26	craigbro	good
17:27	AimHere	(dec ChanServ)
17:27	lazybot	⇒ -1
17:27	gtrak	that guy's a jerk
17:27	hyPiRion	You can adjust your own karma.
17:27	hyPiRion	,(println "(inc hypiRion)")
17:27	clojurebot	(inc hypiRion)
17:27	lazybot	⇒ 4
17:28	gtrak	gman_: when I write names like that, that usually signifies a map
17:28	gtrak	from key->value
17:29	amalloy	gman_: it's just the name of something. probably a function
17:29	gman_	ok so you can dereference a map with that syntax?
17:29	crease	,(type crease)
17:29	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: crease in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:29	crease	ho hum
17:29	gtrak	gman_: it's not a syntax
17:29	technomancy	it means it's converting between "types" loosely
17:29	technomancy	but header->body makes no sense
17:29	technomancy	because you can't convert between them
17:29	amalloy	technomancy: just confusing the issue. the point is it's a name, with no special signifigance in the language
17:29	technomancy	oh, sure
17:30	gtrak	data row header to human body conversion function
17:30	amalloy	header->body exists in gloss and makes sense in context
17:30	crease	(type craigbro)
17:30	craigbro	(inc (var-get (resolve 'craigbro)))
17:30	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:30	craigbro	(inc (var-get (resolve 'craigbro)))
17:30	lazybot	⇒ 2
17:30	craigbro	well well well
17:30	crease	uh oh
17:30	TimMc	what
17:30	amalloy	dunno if that's the one he's run into, but saying it makes no sense seems silly
17:31	technomancy	craigbro: you're way over-thinking it =)
17:31	gman_	yes it is from gloss, I just can't glean what it expresses
17:31	amalloy	TimMc: that's just the karma plugin
17:31	technomancy	craigbro: it only looks like lisp; it's really not.
17:31	crease	(type (var-get (resolve 'craigbro)))
17:31	TimMc	oh, ha
17:31	TimMc	I get it.
17:31	craigbro	$karma craigbro
17:31	lazybot	craigbro has karma 0.
17:31	craigbro	ah
17:31	Bronsa	lol
17:31	TimMc	$karma (var-get (resolve 'craigbro))
17:31	lazybot	(var-get has karma 0.
17:31	Bronsa	$karma (var-get (resolve 'craigbro))
17:31	lazybot	(var-get has karma 0.
17:31	Bronsa	what.
17:31	hyPiRion	it's escaping incorrectly
17:32	ibdknox	2pro4u
17:32	hyPiRion	We've been through this before
17:32	ibdknox	lol
17:32	craigbro	i imagine so
17:32	gman_	i mean the -> operator when between two symbols
17:32	TimMc	Oh, (inc and $karma have differnet parsing.
17:32	hyPiRion	(inc ~@:*)
17:32	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:32	TimMc	gman_: It's not between them -- it's part of the name.
17:32	ibdknox	ppppaul: is that cljs pprint stuff somewhere? :)
17:32	hyPiRion	karma ~@:*
17:32	amalloy	gman_: -> isn't an operator anyway, and in header->body it's just the name of a thing, named "header->body"
17:32	hyPiRion	$karma ~@:*
17:32	lazybot	~@:* has karma 1.
17:32	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
17:32	gtrak	gman_: ##[(class 'a->b) 'a->b]
17:32	lazybot	⇒ [clojure.lang.Symbol a->b]
17:33	TimMc	,'foo->>>>-->->>bar ;; gman_
17:33	clojurebot	foo->>>>-->->>bar
17:33	gman_	ahh.. ok thanks TimMc
17:33	TimMc	gtrak: Don't you mean... ##((juxt class identity) 'a->b) :-P
17:33	lazybot	⇒ [clojure.lang.Symbol a->b]
17:33	gtrak	of course
17:34	TimMc	Always use juxt, even if it will confuse people.
17:34	amalloy	TimMc: well done preempting me there; i was going to scold you for confusing people
17:34	TimMc	s/even if/especially when/
17:34	ibdknox	especially when it'll confuse people.
17:34	TimMc	BAM
17:34	amalloy	ibdknox: TimMc is on fire
17:34	ibdknox	oh no's
17:34	ibdknox	lol
17:37	gtrak	,(map #(%) (map #(partial % 'a->b) [class identity]))
17:37	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.Symbol a->b)
17:38	crease	hrm, is there a good way to traverse maps in core.logic?
17:38	dnolen	crease: nothing beyond seq'ing them
17:39	amalloy	maps are almost as hard as numbers
17:40	crease	dnolen, amalloy: oh. So what do people use to run queries on map literals in source?
17:40	solussd	what do people use for custom decoders when using cheshire?
17:40	dnolen	crease: or you could do some custom unification
17:41	gtrak	last one: ##(drop 1 (reductions (fn [_ a] (a)) nil (map #(partial % 'a->b) [class identity])))
17:41	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.lang.Symbol a->b)
17:41	dnolen	crease: people haven't tried it much so it's still a developing topic. lynaghk implemented partial maps which is useful - but I need to tweak it a bit to make it sound.
17:42	frozenlock	cark: I must be missing something... I still don't see anything appearing in my nrepl or nrepl-server. :(
17:43	mindbender1	what the best way of adding new library dependency to a running nrepl session
17:44	moogatronic	frozenlock: what version of nrepl.el are you running?
17:44	brehaut	pomegranate ?
17:44	frozenlock	eh... the one from lein 2.0.0-preview10
17:45	crease	dnolen: yah, I was just looking at that branch… I'm trying to write a source navigator for projects using zippers and logic queries
17:45	moogatronic	frozenlock: well, nrepl.el is separate from nrepl that lein uses. oh wait, are you using emacs even?
17:45	crease	I suppose I could represent the source as a tree of records and do queries on that
17:45	frozenlock	Oh sorry, I didn't see .el
17:46	moogatronic	0.1.6-preview fixed some stuff that was broken for me in the prev ver, but that's not likely related to your issues..
17:46	hyPiRion	,(mapv #(% 'a->b) [#(`%%%) class])
17:46	clojurebot	[a->b clojure.lang.Symbol]
17:46	frozenlock	0.1.3
17:46	dnolen	crease: partial maps are actually in master now. that sounds interesting.
17:46	frozenlock	Oh! I'll try that then, thanks for the tip!
17:46	mindbender1	brehaut: ok thanks just making sure
17:47	brehaut	mindbender1: i dont know for certain, but thats the only thing that springs to mind
17:47	crease	dnolen: oh, awesome!
17:47	moogatronic	frozenlock: yeah, maybe update to at least 0.1.5, but the preview fixed restarting the repl for me.
17:47	moogatronic	(0.1.6-preview i mean)
17:48	gtrak	there must be a market for manual clojure obfuscation
17:49	aperiodic	sounds like a good kibbit plugin
17:49	crease	dnolen: the idea is something a bit like the call-hierarchy stuff in Eclipse, where you can display and navigate through potentially cyclic or otherwise infinite trees
17:49	dnolen	crease: again I don't recommend using them heavily in their current form. At some point in the future I hope to see how well having a constraint version of some of Clojure's core APIs plays out. for traversal I need some hammock time
17:51	gfredericks	seancorfield: ping
17:51	dnolen	crease: rhickey at ClojureX had a good idea - relations should really be polymorphic - Clojure already has a rich notion of sequences, core.logic should perhaps have something that mirrors that but allowing moving back to the original data that generated the sequence.
17:51	dnolen	crease: have you seen this - http://github.com/cderoove/damp.ekeko ?
17:52	dnolen	crease: queries of the Java AST in Eclipse, it uses core.logic
17:58	hyPiRion	gtrak: manual clojure obfuscation? Sure thing!
17:58	gtrak	let's start a company
17:58	hyPiRion	We need to find a market first
17:58	gtrak	the users don't know what they want... it's our job to tell them
17:59	crease	dnolen: no, I hadn't seen that! It looks really cool
17:59	hyPiRion	Maybe we can sell our services to rhickey, explaining that he can focus on working with the language instead of reviewing bugfixes and whatnot
17:59	Bronsa	lol
18:00	gtrak	I meant obfuscating the code, not the language itself.. ;-)
18:00	hyPiRion	I meant the code for the language :)
18:00	technomancy	was going to say; that explains contains?
18:01	hyPiRion	And (Boolean. false) and friends?
18:01	gtrak	technomancy: just use java interop in order to doTheRightThingTM
18:02	gtrak	what's the big deal? #(.contains [:a :b :c :d] :d)
18:02	gtrak	##(.contains [:a :b :c :d] :d)
18:02	lazybot	⇒ true
18:02	hyPiRion	Or some
18:02	hyPiRion	,(some :d [:a :b :c :d])
18:02	clojurebot	nil
18:03	hyPiRion	See, that works nice.
18:03	hyPiRion	,(some #(= :d %) [:a :b :c :d])
18:03	clojurebot	true
18:03	hyPiRion	gah.
18:04	dnolen	,(some #{:d} [:a :b :c :d])
18:04	clojurebot	:d
18:04	hyPiRion	,(some #{false} [false :a :b :c :d])
18:04	clojurebot	nil
18:04	hyPiRion	But yeah, if you know they are truthy, #{} is sweet.
18:05	gtrak	contains? makes more sense as clojure.set function, but it's used all over core.clj
18:06	AimHere	,(contains? [:a :b :c] :c)
18:06	clojurebot	false
18:06	AimHere	,(contains? [:a :b :c] 1)
18:06	clojurebot	true
18:06	rbxbx	weavejester: am I incorrect in thinking that https://github.com/weavejester/ring-json-response/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/json_response.clj#L11 should work for things other than maps which are representable as JSON? (ie: a vector)
18:06	amalloy	rbxbx: the docstring is pretty clear that it's not intended to work that way
18:07	weavejester	rbxbx: That library is deprecated. Try: https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring-json
18:07	rbxbx	aha
18:07	weavejester	I need to update the README to mention that. I thought I did, but maybe I didn't push it.
18:08	rbxbx	weavejester: awesome. That's how I expected the impl to work :D
18:08	rbxbx	amalloy I get that, just figured https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring-json/blob/master/src/ring/middleware/json.clj#L41 was the apropos behavior ;)
18:08	rbxbx	Thanks weavejester!
18:08	weavejester	rbxbx: Note it only works with vectors, not seqs, because seqs are used for streaming Ring responses.
18:11	rbxbx	weavejester: noted.
18:19	hyPiRion	..well, that was easier than I though it would be.
18:20	hyPiRion	Anyone here who has submitted patches to bugs in core?
18:20	yedi	is it called boolean pattern, or boolean equation, or?
18:28	TimMc	&(-> class class class)
18:28	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Class
18:28	technomancy	hyPiRion: I have, but the process has changed so as to be unrecognizable since Jira was introduced
18:28	technomancy	s/unrecognizable/incomprehensible/
18:28	hyPiRion	technomancy: okay, that's exactly why I asked.
18:30	hyPiRion	Oh well, I'll just hop down the rabbit hole and hope for the best.
18:30	TimMc	hyPiRion: #(`%%%) is still my favorite.
18:31	hyPiRion	TimMc: it's shorter than identity!
18:32	hyPiRion	There's some gensym leakage within #() though
18:33	hyPiRion	,(#(do `%) :foo)
18:33	clojurebot	p1__87__88__auto__
18:34	bbloom	dnolen: could you elaborate on the polymorphic relationship and bi-directional navigation?
18:36	mmitchell	is there a core fn that takes a map and a set of functions, and then applies the functions to the values of the map, and then returns the map with the new values?
18:36	technomancy	mmitchell: no, but it'd sure be nice
18:36	Raynes	There is one in useful.
18:36	technomancy	(zipmap (keys m) (map f (vals m))) is the closest
18:36	Raynes	I hate that version
18:36	mmitchell	haha
18:37	technomancy	s/closest/shortest/
18:38	hyPiRion	No love for reduce-kv?
18:38	hyPiRion	&(reduce-kv (fn [m k v] (assoc m k (+ 1 v))) {} {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3})
18:38	lazybot	⇒ {:b 3, :c 4, :a 2}
18:39	mattmoss	(into {} (map (juxt key (comp f val)) coll)
18:39	dnolen	bbloom: just that if you want to do anything w/ the various Clojure data structures in core.logic you end up doing a lot of explicit seq'ing. Would be nice if this could be pushed under the covers somehow. seems like you might need a slightly smarter notion of seq to do this.
18:39	hyPiRion	(reduce-kv #(assoc % %1 (f %2)) {} ...)
18:39	amalloy	TimMc: that's a neat identity function
18:40	bbloom	dnolen: smarter in what sense?
18:40	dnolen	bbloom: in general miniKanren abounds with cases where there are missed opportunities for polymorphism - constraints for example. !=fd vs !=. Of course it make it's more challenging to implement, and it's not clear how constraints might / should interact.
18:40	bbloom	dnolen: one thing i've considered is "the seq" or "a seq". unsorted collections are seq-able, but really there are N! arbitrary sequences you can pick
18:41	dnolen	bbloom: you put a map in your want to get a map out. that won't happen if you seq a map.
18:41	mattmoss	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (into (empty m) (map (juxt key (comp inc val)) m)))
18:41	clojurebot	{:a 2, :c 4, :b 3}
18:41	bbloom	dnolen: ah, i see, some kinda seq that carries with it the notion of conj! and empty
18:42	dnolen	bbloom: something, to be honest I have the haziest of notions at the moment.
18:43	TimMc	amalloy: Praise/blame goes to hyPiRion for #(`%%%)
18:43	bbloom	dnolen: clearly your AbstractRehydratableCollectionSequence needs to have an AbstractLinearizableCollectionFactory
18:43	bbloom	er i mean, yes more hammock time.
18:44	dnolen	bbloom: :)
18:45	bbloom	dnolen: but yeah: makes sense to me. definitely worth exploring
18:45	hyPiRion	TimMc: http://i.imgur.com/cvEFp.png
19:03	bosie	is midje supposed to reload the code in the repl?
19:03	bosie	i am using (load-facts) and it doesn't seem to see the changes i make outside of the test files
19:05	S11001001	bosie: I don't think it will globally load; if you're using nrepl press C-c C-l when in a buffer to reload it
19:05	S11001001	bosie: global reload is more trouble than it's worth
19:06	bosie	S11001001: lein repl
19:06	S11001001	bosie: well, you can use require :reload then, but I'd suggest getting going with nrepl instead
19:06	bosie	S11001001: i am just trying technomancy's suggestion of executing midje test cases through the repl and not with "lein repl"
19:09	technomancy	bosie: I recommend handling reloading through your editor
19:09	bosie	S11001001: will look into nrepl
19:10	ticking	what if file implemented count to get the number of files in a directoy?
19:10	technomancy	ticking: you can count file-seq
19:11	ticking	technomancy: yeah but that is recursive
19:11	technomancy	oh right
19:11	ticking	technomancy: tbh a non recursive file-seq would probably better ^^
19:11	technomancy	like .listFiles
19:11	technomancy	?
19:12	S11001001	but there's the burning question of whether you must count "." and "..", therefore all file list counters must be custom
19:12	ticking	yes, but without the java interop
19:12	technomancy	why without java interop?
19:12	ticking	because its nasty
19:12	technomancy	it is not nasty
19:12	ticking	just think of the higher order functions^^
19:12	amalloy	use another language, then
19:13	amalloy	clojure can't get anything done without someone talking to java
19:13	hyPiRion	"eww, java. Let's build a language on top of it"
19:13	hyPiRion	"with good interop"
19:13	ticking	hyPiRion: you know what they say "The jvm is a nice runtime, but its reference language sucks."
19:14	amalloy	ticking: not relevant? nobody is telling you to write java
19:14	amalloy	only suggesting you use the jvm runtime's method-invocation feature
19:14	ticking	amalloy: there is a reason why you don't write java.io.File. everytime you now use clojure.java.io/file
19:14	Raynes	Uh
19:14	Raynes	No, I don't.
19:14	S11001001	One time I needed to use httpcomponents-client.
19:15	S11001001	clj-http-client didn't have the features I needed.
19:15	Raynes	If you hate Java so much that you aren't willing to use perfectly acceptable code already written in it, you're probably using the wrong language.
19:15	S11001001	So I...used interop to work with hc-client directly, it worked out
19:15	dakrone	S11001001: out of curiosity, which feature?
19:16	ticking	Raynes, I'm not saying that this shouldn't be used but that it should be wrapped by the core already
19:16	Raynes	That's insane.
19:16	Raynes	You want to wrap every single bit of Java code in clojure.core?
19:16	Raynes	For the sole purpose of not having to write a dot before the name?
19:16	ticking	Raynes, no, I just want to wrap the usefull file io bits in clojure.java.io
19:17	ticking	Raynes: I agree that the old testament "The only good about java are 1 billio lines of java." is true
19:17	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/fs <-- some file system stuff
19:17	S11001001	dakrone: it was 2 years ago, but probably something to do with headers or persistent connection handling
19:17	ticking	Raynes: thus we should use what is there
19:17	S11001001	ticking: define useful
19:17	ticking	Raynes but that still doesn't mean that I want to use interop in non libary coe
19:18	ticking	Raynes: yeah I know, I actually use your lib in a lot of projects, could use jome javadoc btw ;D
19:19	Raynes	If I could get weavejester to reply to my codox issue. ;)
19:19	weavejester	Hm?
19:19	Raynes	weavejester: https://github.com/weavejester/codox/issues/16
19:19	Raynes	y u no work
19:19	ticking	S11001001: everyday stuff, not esoteric things like getters and setters for sticky bits or ZFS hash information
19:20	S11001001	ticking: it's not a dichotomy
19:20	S11001001	for example, suppose you're walking a tree.
19:20	weavejester	Oh yep, I've been meaning to look into that, but I've been sick lately, so I haven't worked up the courage to go through the code in Lein master and work out why the dependencies have changed.
19:20	S11001001	Do you need file types beyond isdir?
19:20	Raynes	Awww.
19:21	S11001001	Well, maybe.
19:21	brehaut	Raynes: weavejester is in england, they drink tea
19:21	S11001001	Depends on how good you want it to be.
19:21	ticking	S11001001: you need isDir? isFile? isSpecial?
19:21	weavejester	We have chicken soup too
19:21	Raynes	brehaut: I'm in Alabama. We drink whiskey and cough syrup.
19:21	weavejester	I had some earlier :)
19:21	brehaut	weavejester: what‽ my entire understanding of england is coming unraveled!
19:21	Raynes	I'll be in LA soon though. And they drink protein shakes.
19:22	bosie	Raynes: many clj programmers in alabama? ;)
19:22	Raynes	bosie: I know of just one.
19:22	Raynes	His name is Raynes.
19:22	S11001001	So the definition of "everyday stuff" isn't clear-cut.
19:22	bosie	hah
19:22	crease	lovin protocols
19:23	Raynes	weavejester: Where is that assert at? I can probably fix whatever the problem is for you.
19:23	Raynes	Oh, dur
19:23	Raynes	Never mind.
19:23	Raynes	Dear Anthony, you has stacktrace.
19:23	ticking	S11001001: then you grow and shrink the library based on user input
19:23	brehaut	S11001001, ticking: I think java.util.concurrent Queues are a great example of everyday stuff that nobody wraps because they are so useful already
19:24	S11001001	ticking: that sounds like "grow and ...grow" to me. We can't even kick if-not out of clojure.core.
19:25	ticking	S11001001: then there are 1 or 2 functions in there that are already use or you aply this conservatively and try to keep it at a minimum
19:25	S11001001	I think the main area where you might want a library, and you can't do something nice with clojure like write a dsl, is "stuff you might want to do in cross-clojure code"
19:25	ticking	S11001001: still no reason to keep it nonexistent
19:26	Raynes	weavejester: How would you feel about inlining source code instead of linking to Github, sort of like rubydoc does?
19:26	S11001001	ticking: anyway, since it's just a few functions, why not introduce a new library with impls for jvm,clr?,js? The bar isn't that high for new libs in clojure-land
19:26	ticking	S11001001: the same goes for the queues, just because they are usefull doesn't mean they are idiomatic
19:26	weavejester	Raynes: Not sure. Too tired right now to have an opinion.
19:26	Raynes	weavejester: I'm interested in adding it with pygments highlighting. It would basically just change the source link to expand to the code. Could also still do the linking to github thing with an option.
19:26	Raynes	Haha
19:26	weavejester	Raynes: Codox does support custom outputs, though
19:27	Raynes	Alright, no prob.
19:27	ticking	S11001001: the bettern thign to do would probably write a pull request for fs to Raynes
19:27	S11001001	hmm
19:27	S11001001	@mail rplevy you'll be happy to know I'm getting RHCA'd
19:28	Raynes	I don't accept pull requests. You have to send me a CA, a blood sample, make a jira issue, wait 6 months, attach a patch, and then wait for me to vet it and send it to amalloy for code review and then brehaut will merge it if all goes as planned.
19:29	ticking	Raynes: sounds simpler than contributing to clojure ;)
19:29	brehaut	ticking: you havent seen me try to merge a patch
19:29	Raynes	Haha, that's exactly the process for contributing to Clojure, except the blood sample.
19:31	ticking	yeah thats the only thing from submitting a 400% faster version of partition-by which is implemented in the even faster partition-between which can split at arbitrary places instead of just borders between values
19:31	hyPiRion	wait 6 months for what?
19:31	hyPiRion	the CA to be accepted?
19:32	ticking	hyPiRion: it takes rick that long to channel the dark spirit of clojus the deamon of programming from the 11th dymention to give is dark blessing to the patch ^^
19:33	hyPiRion	Well yeah, obviously.
19:33	ticking	lol
19:33	hyPiRion	brehaut: how the.. what? wouldn't it be [1 1] [1 3] ?
19:34	brehaut	hyPiRion: not if you are partitioning in arbitrary places instead of just the borders between values
19:34	hyPiRion	oh right
19:34	brehaut	i never said it was rational :P
19:34	ticking	hrhr
19:34	amalloy	brehaut: you made it produce rational numbers
19:34	ticking	I wonder how the params for the partition funciton would look like
19:35	brehaut	amalloy: someone always has to be pedantic
19:36	amalloy	no, the pedants would have pointed out your lame implementation produces real numbers
19:36	Raynes	sattvik: leinjacker's dep stuff is broken against recent leiningen 2 previews.
19:36	ticking	I would already be happy about something like (partition-between (fn [x y] …) …)
19:37	Raynes	amalloy: Didn't leiningen start using ordered maps as an internal representation of dependencies instead of vectors?
19:37	ticking	in the core
19:37	amalloy	started, then stopped, i think
19:44	dhm	anyone know if it's possible to make ring watch and reload namespaces defined in a project's dependencies and imported at startup time via a symlink in directory 'checkouts'?
19:45	sattvik	Raynes: Hmm… I'll have to take a look at that. Could you open a bug, please?
19:45	Raynes	sattvik: I found out why
19:46	Raynes	sattvik: Dependencies isn't a vector of vectors anymore, it's a seq of vectors. Just need to change the assertion to look for a seq instead.
19:46	Raynes	sattvik: https://github.com/Raynes/leinjacker/blob/master/src/leinjacker/deps.clj#L47 these assertions
19:46	sattvik	Raynes: Ah, OK.
19:47	Raynes	sattvik: Want me to throw a pull request at you?
19:47	Raynes	Well...
19:47	sattvik	Raynes: That'd be great.
19:47	Raynes	I guess asserting a seq would break lein 1 compatibility.
19:47	Raynes	Are you going for compatibility with lein 1 here?
19:47	Raynes	I could assert (sequential? ..)
19:48	sattvik	Yes, both Lein 1 and Lein 2.
19:48	sattvik	That could work.
19:48	Raynes	I'll give that a shot.
19:52	egghead	hey all, I am trying to use a function which slurps up keys/vals via [& {:keys [..]}] -- I have a object containing those keys but I need to pass them individually (somefn :a 1 :b 2) rather than (somefn {:a 1 :b 2}) -- if it wasn't a hashmap I'd use apply, is there anything I could do?
19:53	bbloom	,(apply concat {:a 1 :b 2})
19:53	clojurebot	(:a 1 :b 2)
19:54	egghead	ah, that works... thanks bbloom
19:54	egghead	I was thinking 'I could mapcar list over the keys and vals....' but concat works much better
19:55	Raynes	sattvik: I'm having a bit of trouble running the tests.
19:55	Raynes	Actual: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Unable to find Leiningen 2 in the path as lein or lein2. Please make sure it is installed and in your path under one of those names.
19:55	Raynes	I have lein on my path (leiningen 2) as well as lein1 for lein 1.
19:55	Raynes	Is something wrong with that setup?
19:56	egghead	mapcat*
19:57	amalloy	egghead: you could mapcat identity over the map-entries. concat is better, but mapcat solutions also exist
19:58	Raynes	sattvik: Never mind, drip was breaking it.
19:58	Raynes	amalloy: Damn your drip.
19:58	bbloom	I found a solution to the slow JVM startup time! i got a faster machine :-P
19:59	egghead	amalloy: ah, mapcat identity is even simpler than what I was thinking, still apply concat seems to make sense since I just want to concatenate all the key/value pairs
19:59	Raynes	amalloy: Remember how we always had that issue where we'd want to kill cake's persistent jvm just to be sure it wasn't causing problem? I do that now with LEIN_JAVA_CMD= lein test
19:59	egghead	you guys are so smart :3
20:03	mpan	what's the most convenient way to run a standalone clojure file?
20:03	osbert	hi, is there somebody here that is an admin on clojars that can delete the jars osbert/hiccup-bootstrap and org.clojars.osbert.osbert/hiccup-bootstrap for me? i just had two huge brain farts. sorry and thanks in advance.
20:03	technomancy	osbert: sure; I can get that
20:04	amalloy	the jvm really doesn't start up slowly enough for developers to notice, bbloom. it's the time spent compiling clojure.core, lein, and your app that you notice
20:05	akhudek	amalloy: can you aot clojure core? I've found even if you aot your entire app the startup time is still ~2 sec
20:05	bbloom	amalloy: i'm just enjoying my new mbp being much faster than my prior machine. `lein repl` now only takes 1ish second to get to a useful prompt, which is a huge improvement for me
20:05	amalloy	probably that's your ssd rather than a faster cpu
20:05	bbloom	amalloy: my prior machine was an older air which had an ssd too
20:06	technomancy	osbert: voip
20:06	technomancy	gone
20:06	osbert	technomancy: thanks, sorry about that.
20:06	technomancy	np
20:06	amalloy	akhudek: even if you AOT namespaces, i believe the compiler checks to see if a source file is available and recompiles it if so; AOT is more for exposing a java-friendly interface. not sure about that, though
20:06	technomancy	AOT does allow for faster loading
20:07	technomancy	but the bytecode still needs to pass through the verifier
20:07	Raynes	sattvik: Just sent you a pull request. When do you think we can get a release? Codox is broken until we do.
20:07	akhudek	yep, we have a command line app and AOT is pretty crucial to have it start up quickly
20:07	technomancy	FSVO "quickly"
20:07	akhudek	well, people still complain about the 2s :-/
20:08	akhudek	which is funny because it's a compiler that is not fast
20:08	Raynes	akhudek: I would have written it in Haskell! :D
20:08	akhudek	Raynes: hah, not a bad choice :-)
20:11	amalloy	technomancy: so if your code is AOTed, the compiler doesn't attempt to recompile it? i have a heck of a time figuring out what code is run when you (require 'some.ns) so i can't really track it down myself
20:12	technomancy	amalloy: it still checks the timestamps; if the source is newer it will recompile.
20:12	amalloy	it looks to me like (require 'foo.core) unconditionally involves a call to (load "foo/core.clj") eventually; where's that timestamp check?
20:15	technomancy	wouldn't surprise me to find it in load
20:15	technomancy	require is all about translating symbols to paths and preventing unnecessary reloads
20:16	amalloy	ah, it's in c.l.RT/load. i was looking in c.l.RT/loadResourceScript, since that's what people are usually encouraged to use; it doesn't do that check
20:22	dhm	regarding my previous question about auto reloading a ring app's dependencies, turns out ring-reload-modified is a great solution for that
20:32	Raynes	Houston, we have documentation http://raynes.github.com/laser/
20:33	technomancy	Raynes: you had documentation before too
20:33	Raynes	technomancy: I don't think I did.
20:33	Raynes	technomancy: Not pretty html documentation
20:33	technomancy	I mean before you generated and published the HTML
20:33	Raynes	technomancy: You're talking about the code, right?
20:34	technomancy	Raynes: right; just a pet peeve
20:34	amalloy	i think your big rambling README is more interesting/useful documentation than some html that's autogenerated from the sources
20:34	technomancy	IMO repl-accessible docstrings and long-form prose are way more important as documentation
20:34	Raynes	technomancy: So now I can't use when without side efforts or generate documentation? Jesus, I give up.
20:34	technomancy	Raynes: I'm objecting to your treatment of in-repl docstrings =)
20:34	technomancy	don't discriminate!
20:35	Raynes	technomancy: Well, the docstrings are still there.
20:35	Raynes	Nothing has changed.
20:35	Raynes	amalloy: I need to make it even bigger with more rambling.
20:35	technomancy	right; that's what I was getting at; "you had documentation before too"
20:35	Raynes	I'm going to cause you physical harm.
20:36	technomancy	sorry I am getting a bunch of snark tossed my way in #git for expressing my wish that the gc operation was documented and am deflecting it over here
20:36	technomancy	were documented
20:36	Raynes	wuz
20:36	amalloy	Raynes: you already have caused him physical harm by claiming docstrings aren't documentation
20:37	Raynes	I did not claim that.
20:37	Raynes	I hate you all.
20:37	technomancy	"Performs a bunch of housekeeping stuff. Don't sweat the details."
20:37	brehaut	technomancy: pity that goes against git's general philosophy of sweating the details
20:38	technomancy	(inc brehaut)
20:38	lazybot	⇒ 10
20:39	amalloy	technomancy: isn't the behavior of gc explained in the --auto option and CONFIGURATION section of that help page?
20:39	technomancy	amalloy: not really
20:40	technomancy	amalloy: it says it does two things: repack and prune, but I have a repo with 5MB of loose objects and no unreferenced objects, and a gc brings the size from 1.5GB to 35MB
20:40	technomancy	so either something else is happening, or the loose objects count is completely bollocks
20:41	ivan	what size were you expecting?
20:42	hyPiRion	well, 5 MB less I suppose.
20:42	amalloy	really, no unreachable objects? how did you get to that state?
20:42	technomancy	amalloy: well, ~0
20:43	technomancy	amalloy: small enough that pruning had no effect on du -hs
20:43	technomancy	ivan: I'd expect count-objects to show ~1.5 GB of loose objects
20:43	amalloy	how did you determine 5MB of loose objects?
20:43	sattvik	Raynes: I'm not sure I'll be able to get to it in the next day or two since I am travelling. tcrawley should also be able to make a new release.
20:43	technomancy	amalloy: git count-objects
20:44	ivan	technomancy: but repack compresses tons of nearly-identical text files into one pack
20:44	ivan	see .git/objects before and after
20:44	technomancy	ah, because repack is overloaded; it's actually two operations?
20:45	technomancy	I guess by now I should expect that of git
20:45	amalloy	technomancy: i think that's the last paragraph of the --auto docs
20:45	amalloy	ie, it can operate on more than just loose objects
20:46	Raynes	tcrawley: Make a new release or I hurt you
20:46	Raynes	I cut you
20:46	technomancy	yeah, true
20:47	technomancy	they did tell me in #git that gc.auto is not actually used exactly; it uses an estimate to determine whether it's over the limit, but it's frequently wrong =\
20:49	technomancy	hm; I don't think that's it; `git repack -A` actually increases the repo size
20:49	hyPiRion	I'm not saying I find Raynes threatening at times, but if someone would setup a donation for an anger management therapist to him, I would donate a significant amount of money to it.
20:49	hyPiRion	Clojure need healthy developers.
20:49	Raynes	I could probably use some anger management
20:50	dhm	I mean some people make the anger work for them. Like Rambo.
20:50	neilmock	damnit, I came to clojure to avoid the anger of ruby
20:51	technomancy	yeah, gc must be doing some other undocumented operation
20:51	hyPiRion	neilmock: It's only Raynes, everyone else are nice
20:51	technomancy	awesome
20:51	technomancy	and the only person who knows how it works in #git has me on ignore
20:51	neilmock	higher order functions be damned
20:51	technomancy	because I told him the man page was wrong
20:52	bbloom	technomancy: that'll teach you to correct people
20:52	hyPiRion	technomancy: You never tell people that they are wrong. You ask "hey, I see the documentation states X, but I see Y. Is there something I don't understand here?"
20:53	bbloom	Raynes: I get annoyed when i see API docs with no obvious link back to the README
20:53	bbloom	mainly b/c i hate API docs....
20:53	technomancy	bbloom: I was actually just repeating what someone told me earlier; there was one nice guy in #git, but he went to bed
20:53	hyPiRion	People hate people correcting them, so better let them "figure" out errors themselves.
20:53	technomancy	hyPiRion: well this was just after he kept pointing me to the man page
20:54	brehaut	if someone doesnt like being corrected, they probably shouldnt use IRC
20:54	hyPiRion	technomancy: Oh, then it's rather fruitless, yeah.
20:54	bbloom	it's always entertaining how much the attitude of the BDFL for any community influences the tone of that community
20:54	technomancy	bbloom: sorry, it's done; I'm about to head to dinner =)
20:59	It_the_zfealian	Raynes,
20:59	It_the_zfealian	I Worship His Shadow.
23:20	crease	dnolen: can core.match take arbitrary predicates in the guards?
23:25	dnolen	crease: yes, :when is restricted, :guard is not
23:25	crease	dnolen: cool, thanks.
23:50	dnolen	gfredericks: hey the core.logic version of 4clojure is cool! :D
23:50	tcrawley	Raynes: sattvik: sure thing! I'll do a release tomorrow morning. FIRST THING
23:51	Raynes	Excellent, sir.
23:51	tcrawley	phew