#clojure – 2012-12-17

2012-12-17

00:35	metellus	um.
01:07	seangrove	cljs in chrome extensions is really pretty frustrating
01:11	seangrove	I have to do this for any object that's originated from the content-script: (js->clj (goog.json/parse (goog.json/serialize object-from-content-script)) :keywordize-keys true)
01:15	seangrove	I don't really understand this: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-439
01:16	seangrove	Why not use goog.isObject instead of (identical? js/object .)?
02:24	amalloy	seangrove: tomoj probably knows
02:25	seangrove	amalloy: Using goog.isObject in that function seems to work fine. I've just copied/pasted it into a helper function I can use instead
02:26	amalloy	i'm the wrong person to tell
02:26	tomoj	so now try js->clj on some weird stuff
02:26	tomoj	like a function
02:27	tomoj	or any random object
02:27	tomoj	like a dom node or something
02:27	tomoj	that may cause havoc..
02:28	seangrove	Ah, damn
02:28	seangrove	I suppose I can use it with some modifications for my needs of host<->CS communications though
02:29	tomoj	maybe just extend IEncodeClojure to your other frame's Object
02:29	tomoj	dunno if you can do that
02:31	seangrove	Yeah, not sure how to do that, or how to get a reference to the other frame's Object
02:37	tomoj	probably impossible I guess
04:57	mindbender1	what are some undeniable benefit of typed clojure as against untyped clojure
04:58	HolyJak	mindbender1: https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure#readme ?
04:58	clgv	mindbender1: compile time errors when you pass the wrong type to a function, I'd guess
04:58	mindbender1	to me it looks more like beginner beenfits
04:59	mindbender1	something to help novice programmers to be more type conscious
04:59	clgv	mindbender1: if you have your core source completely typed and you change functions signatures that is a really useful tool to find the places where you forgot to change a function invocation
05:00	clgv	this is the kind of error which annoyed me a lot during some refactoring
05:00	benedikt	there is a typed clojure?
05:01	HolyJak	benedikt: indeed; https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure#readme
05:01	benedikt	cool!
05:02	mindbender1	clgv: I think your case is a really good use case
05:02	mindbender1	should be mentioned in thagt readme
05:03	mindbender1	please guys if you have more use case let's share it
05:03	clgv	mindbender1: I like the idea of external optional typing. I dont know if it is yet so good that you can have the typestuff in completely different files. that would be awesome^^
05:11	jballanc	I'd imagine that, eventually, typed clojure could implement certain optimizations that wouldn't be available to regular clojure
05:12	jballanc	although, that's probably all washed out by hotspot
05:12	clgv	jballanc: typed clojure only checks. you would need additions to clojure's compiler to apply optimizations
05:15	jballanc	right, that's what I mean...once type guarantees are in place, you could (in theory) utilize that information for optimization
06:00	mindbender1	I thought there was a lein newnew template for lib skeleton
06:00	mindbender1	lein new lib foo
06:19	tgoossens	the dereferencing to get a snapshot is a great idea! But! What in the following case: (def r1 (atom [])) (def r2 (atom [r1]))
06:19	tgoossens	@r2
06:20	tgoossens	not really a stable value as promised
06:21	tgoossens	this could be a game board
06:21	tgoossens	with players on it
06:21	tgoossens	how to cope with this?
06:32	clgv	tgoossens: you want a consistent snapshot of both r1 and r2?
06:33	tgoossens	no, i'm just stating that @r2 doesn't really give you a snappshot of whats the situation was back then
06:33	tgoossens	because the nested atom r1 can still change
06:33	tgoossens	so its a weird situation
06:34	tgoossens	not sure what it does when you would go back in history of the persistent data structure
06:34	clgv	hm what? please make one or two complete setences to describe what you want
06:34	edlothiol	tgoossens: that's (one reason) why nesting atoms is a bad idea
06:34	clgv	oh they are nested ^^
06:34	tgoossens	:)
06:35	tgoossens	nested atoms just break all the goodness that comes with immutability
06:35	clgv	yeah better do not do that if you need a consistent snapshot
06:36	tgoossens	i came up with it because i have the situation of
06:36	tgoossens	a game board, and pieces
06:36	clgv	you could have an immutable array with [r1 r2] though
06:36	tgoossens	hmmm
06:37	tgoossens	thats not such a stupid idea :p
06:37	clgv	you could put the whole thing in a map within an atom: (atom {:board [field1 field2 ...] :pieces [pieces1 piece2 ...]}
06:37	tgoossens	yes i was just thinking that
06:37	tgoossens	but how do i model the following:
06:38	clgv	if that doesnt work well, you can use refs for all mutable entities and get the consistent snapshot within a transaction
06:38	tgoossens	another (concurrent) user of the system wants to track movement of a certain piece over time
06:38	tgoossens	the easiest solutions is of couse to nest identities here. but then i'm back at my problem
06:39	clgv	tgoossens: the pieces have implicit ids within the vector I used in the example above, so (get-in @game [:pieces 1]) works
06:39	tgoossens	hmmm
06:39	tgoossens	mmyes
06:41	clgv	if you need to have change-handlers on every pieces you probably need to use refs instead
06:42	tgoossens	in my OO project (i'm rethinking it in clojure now)
06:42	tgoossens	i had a Board class & a Piece class
06:43	tgoossens	they were coupled: board.getPieces() , piece.getBoard()
06:43	tgoossens	maybe i'm trying too hard to get that functionality as well
06:44	mindbender1	clojure is about looking at your problems from a different point of view as clgv is stressing
06:45	tgoossens	i'm trying ;)
06:45	clgv	just forget about those classes and use data representations instead
06:46	clgv	it helps to define the operations you need on that data to decide if it needs any special structure
06:46	mindbender1	I can't stress enough how Rich Hickey talks hepled
06:46	mindbender1	helped
06:46	tgoossens	i've seen a lot of them
06:46	mindbender1	listen to it over and over and over and over again
06:47	tgoossens	maybe next semester, first exams :D
06:49	clgv	tgoossens: computer science?
06:51	tgoossens	yes
06:51	tgoossens	clgv: kuleuven belgium, 3th bachelor Computer Science
06:52	clgv	so more theoretical computer science now?
06:52	andrewmcveigh\|wo	tgoossens: You must be the only other person in Belgium I've heard of using Clojure!
06:52	tgoossens	Where are you from then?
06:52	tgoossens	(in belgium)
06:53	andrewmcveigh\|wo	I'm from the UK, but I'm in Brussels.
06:53	tgoossens	ah cool. Well in fact I discovered clojure via another belgium guy
06:54	tgoossens	i'm still pretty unexperienced, but i got tired of always having to think and work with java/OOP. So i went out on discovery to find something drastically different
06:54	tgoossens	and ended up with clojure
06:55	andrewmcveigh\|wo	You're from Leuven, or just studying there?
06:57	t-goossens	I might be the only one at my univ that works with clojure
06:57	t-goossens	Who knows
06:58	andrewmcveigh\|wo	I wouldn't be suprised, I think there were only a couple of people who did anything but java when I was at uni. Few years ago though now.
06:59	t-goossens	Here almost all courses are java OoP based
07:00	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Yeah, it's a shame that.
07:00	t-goossens	Next semester I think im going to read
07:00	t-goossens	Seven program language s in seven weeks
07:01	t-goossens	Looks interesting
07:01	t-goossens	And broading
07:02	andrewmcveigh\|wo	I just heard about that book the other day. Is it new?
07:02	Raynes	Not really.
07:03	andrewmcveigh\|wo	Maybe someone mentioned it on here...
07:11	clgv	can I add an additional "jar" to the classpath leiningen uses for lein repl? just for a one-off test scenario
07:12	llasram	clgv: You can add the JAR file path to the project :resource-paths
07:25	tgoossens	andrewmcveigh: enjoy your stay in belgium. I'll be offline for the coming month (exams need a bit more focus ) So cya!
07:25	andrewmcveigh\|wo	tgoossens: cheers. Study well!
07:27	clgv	llasram: ah thx
07:30	tomoj	what is the contract of IEditableCollection/ITransientCollection?
08:32	TimMc	llasram: I finally released lein-otf 2!
08:41	clgv	TimMc: ah the one with automatically generated main-function?
08:41	PudgePacket	Hey, I'm doing the clojure koans, and I'm upt o recursion. The questions are really weird, do you guys have any pointers ?
08:42	PudgePacket	Why would the function is-even? continually decrement ? how does that check if it's even or not at all ?
08:42	clgv	PudgePacket: if it changes the state of another boolean parameter it can
08:42	babilen	PudgePacket: You you mind sharing the function (e.g. on http://refheap.com) or give us a link to the particular question? (I, for one, haven't memorised all the koans)
08:43	PudgePacket	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7658
08:43	clgv	PudgePacket: you can decrement and remember whether you decremented an odd or even number in total. if you reach zero you know whether the number was even or odd
08:44	babilen	clgv: How do you determine if the number of decrement steps (say k) is even or odd?
08:45	PudgePacket	Is there a function that can be called that will show how many times the function it's in has recursively called itself ?
08:45	clgv	babilen: 1. dec -> odd, 2. dec -> even, 3. dec -> odd ...
08:46	clgv	PudgePacket: do you want a spoiler there?
08:46	PudgePacket	then you would have to pass n, and another value to count how many times it has been called
08:46	PudgePacket	I don't really mind, i understand recursion and i've used it before, it's just this example is really confusing me, it's such a weird way to do it
08:46	clgv	PudgePacket: hint: is 0 even or odd? and what is n if n-1 is even? what in the case of odd?
08:46	clojurebot	No entiendo
08:46	babilen	clgv: Why do you have to count how often you decrement? You will decrement exactly k times if the number you are testing is k
08:47	clgv	babilen: it's not counting just switching the even and odd state
08:48	clgv	babilen: I'd check 0th bit if I really needed to implement it ;)
08:48	babilen	clgv: That would be a sensible way to implement that, but I haven't seen the function PudgePacket is asking about yet and can't say anything about /that/ implementation.
08:48	PudgePacket	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7658
08:48	babilen	clgv: Do /you/ have a link ... ? Ah, thanks PudgePacket :)
08:49	clgv	babilien: I gave him a hint. theres nothing more left than the spoiler ^^
08:50	babilen	clgv: Ah, forget it then. I thought the question was: "Why is is-even? implemented as NEVER-SEEN-THIS which /only/ decrements?" Not: "How could I implement is-even? in a way that decrements/increments a number?"
08:52	PudgePacket	ok I can't figure it out
08:52	PudgePacket	.........
08:52	PudgePacket	without altering the structure of the function, i don't see how i would implement it
08:53	TimMc	clgv: It's the thing that makes uberjars non-AOT, yeah.
08:55	clgv	PudgePacket: spoiler in PM...
09:20	AWizzArd	I have a sequence s and three functions f1, f2 and f3. I would like to apply the three fns to s and concat their results. Is there a more readable way than (mapcat #(% s) [f1 f2 f3])?
09:21	AWizzArd	,(mapcat #(% (range 9)) [identity #(partition 2 %) #(partition 3 %)])
09:21	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
09:21	AWizzArd	==> (0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7) (0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))
09:25	sgeo	Using juxt maybe?
09:25	sgeo	,((juxt identity #(partition 2 %) #(partition 3 %)) (range 9))
09:25	clojurebot	[(0 1 2 3 4 ...) ((0 1) (2 3) (4 5) (6 7)) ((0 1 2) (3 4 5) (6 7 8))]
09:26	sgeo	,(-> ((juxt identity #(partition 2 %) #(partition 3 %)) (range 9)) (apply concat))
09:26	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$concat>
09:26	sgeo	,(->> ((juxt identity #(partition 2 %) #(partition 3 %)) (range 9)) (apply concat))
09:26	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4 ...)
09:26	sgeo	I don't know if that's actually more readable :/
09:35	jsabeaudry	Recommendations for a notification library from clojurescript?
09:41	mthvedt	are clojure core protocols standardized? that is, if i write something implementing clojure protocols--a new data structure, for example--is there a guarantee it'll work on clj/cljs/clj-clr/whatever going forward?
09:49	clgv	AWizzArd: what is not readable with the mapcat approach?
09:52	stuartsierra	mthvedt: no
09:53	stuartsierra	At the moment the protocols are different in Clojure/ClojureScript.
09:54	mthvedt	stuartsierra: thanks
09:55	stuartsierra	Maybe someday they can be brought into agreement.
09:55	mthvedt	yes, iirc host independence for the core lib was one of the reasons for protocols
10:13	bosie	i installed lein-midje via the plugin install mechanism and now i see this in my lein project: "leiningen.midje Problem loading: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate leiningen/core/eval__init.class or leiningen/core/eval.clj on classpath: (midje.clj:3)"
10:14	bosie	anyone know why?
10:14	duck1123	which version of lein are you using?
10:14	bosie	fresh install
10:14	clojurebot	I don't understand.
10:14	bosie	lets see
10:14	bosie	omg
10:15	bosie	its not 2.0
10:15	duck1123	that'll do it
10:16	AWizzArd	sgeo: yes, juxt is a good idea.
10:17	bosie	guess i have to manually install leiningen
10:17	hyPiRion	manually?
10:17	hyPiRion	Are you running windows or linux?
10:17	bosie	osx
10:17	hyPiRion	oh
10:18	duck1123	the manual process is still pretty automatic
10:18	bosie	thankfully
10:19	bosie	and voila
10:19	bosie	lein-midje is installed
10:20	bosie	thanks duck1123
10:20	clgv	AWizzArd: but (apply concat ((juxt f1 f2 f3) s)) is even longer ;)
10:21	hyPiRion	(mapcat #(% s) [f1 f2 f3]) is short and sweet, no?
10:25	clgv	I'd say so ^^
10:28	AWizzArd	It is short, yes. I just have the general concept to map over values. Of course, functions are the values here. But still, juxt is also not a bad candidate, because it directly brings the specific idea/mindset.
10:29	AWizzArd	Typically in 99% of my map calls the f in #(f …) is fix, while the varying stuff comes then.
10:31	AWizzArd	juxt is doing exactly that core task
10:35	clgv	but it is not concatenating the results for you
10:37	clgv	&(apropos "lazy")
10:37	lazybot	⇒ (lazy-cat lazy-seq lazybot-dir)
10:38	clgv	humm interesting. repl-y in lein2-prev10 shows something called "lazy-clojuredocs"...
10:52	grc	Macro question: I'm trying to calculate a value in a macro and use that value in mygenerated code but I'm getting an error "can't use qualified name as a parameter"
10:52	grc	Example (defmacro foo [a] (let [bar (+ a 2) ] `(fn [bar] (* bar 3)) ) )
10:52	gfredericks	ah ha
10:52	gfredericks	,`(fn [bar] (* bar 3))
10:52	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [sandbox/bar] (clojure.core/* sandbox/bar 3))
10:53	gfredericks	,(let [bar (+ 7 2)] `(fn [bar] (* bar 3)))
10:53	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [sandbox/bar] (clojure.core/* sandbox/bar 3))
10:53	gfredericks	,(let [bar (+ 7 2)] `(fn [~bar] (* ~bar 3)))
10:53	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [9] (clojure.core/* 9 3))
10:53	gfredericks	^ note this still doesn't make sense since 9 is not a valid function arg-name
10:53	gfredericks	,(let [bar (+ 7 2)] `(fn [bar#] (* ~bar 3)))
10:53	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [bar__105__auto__] (clojure.core/* 9 3))
10:54	gfredericks	it's not clear what you're actually trying to do from your example, so either of those tactics could be relevant
10:55	clgv	grc: you have to use gensyms for bindings within syntaxquote, e.g. `(fn [bar#] (* bar# 3))
10:56	grc	gfredericks: I'm generating a function definition where the macro's argument is used (after modification) in the function so your final example looks right. What's the purpose of the trailing #
10:56	grc	ah - gemsyms
10:56	clgv	grc: that one would be: (defmacro foo [a] (let [bar (+ a 2) ] `(fn [] (* ~bar 3)) ) )
10:56	clgv	the `bar` as fn param is superfluous I guess...
10:57	gfredericks	the fact that you had bar as a function argument made it unclear what you were doing, since bar was a number in the context
10:57	gfredericks	but debugging backquote is pretty easy since you can play with it outside of a defmacro
10:58	grc	Thanks for that and apologies for the ambiguous nature of the question. Off to play with backquotes and gensyms
11:09	clgv	do I need to stop an agent to get it garbage collected? or does not referencing it suffice?
11:11	jsabeaudry	Can I nest (context in compojure? i.e. (context "/foo" [] (context "/bar" [] foobar-routes))
11:12	clgv	jsabeaudry: according to the docs yes
11:12	weavejester	jsabeaudry: Yep
11:13	S11001001	clgv: they'll gc, they aren't rooted in any thread
11:16	TimMc	S11001001: That doesn't make sense to me.
11:16	clgv	S11001001: good :)
11:17	TimMc	clgv: Is this some local agent, or what?
11:17	S11001001	TimMc: threads are rooted, so you have to kill them before they go away
11:17	clgv	TimMc: yeah. it's going into a closure.
11:18	TimMc	Ah, OK. I'm used to seeing them in vars.
11:29	jsabeaudry	clgv, weavejester: great, thank you!
11:30	clgv	TimMc: need them in a closure to coordinate data serialization within a callback
11:33	cark	now that javafx is provided with the jre, and considering it's not automatically in the classpath : what would be the lein project.clj incantation to make it available to the repl ?
11:36	clgv	cark: there is probably no way to do that, since you need to know the install directory...
11:36	cark	but but but ...
11:37	cark	in a pdf from oracle :
11:37	clgv	I'd make my life easy and keep it as dependency^^
11:37	cark	Starting with JRE 7 Update 6, JavaFX Runtime is part of JRE installation
11:37	cark	No separate installation is needed for JavaFX, and there is no need to
11:37	cark	write custom code to detect where JavaFX is installed.
11:38	clgv	well then it must be on the classpath, right?
11:38	cark	it isn't =/
11:38	cark	hum well
11:38	clgv	system classpath?
11:38	cark	how would i check that from the repl ?
11:38	clgv	do you have a profiler which lists such environment configurations?
11:39	cark	err nope =)
11:39	clgv	you could simply try an `import` with a known javafx class
11:39	cark	i tried that
11:39	clgv	and it did not work?
11:40	cark	nope didn't work, i wouldn't be pestering you about it if it did =)
11:40	cark	it's a pain to find documentation on the web about all this
11:40	cark	much is about older versions
11:40	clgv	right. hmm then you have to ask oracle about how the magic of the second sentence you quoted shall work^^
11:40	cark	hehe i guess you're right =)
11:41	cark	how about the part where you said "i'd keep it as a dependency"
11:41	clgv	is it still available as single artifact via maven?
11:42	cark	just add it to the local repository and refer to it as a normal dependency ?
11:42	clgv	then use that one as dependency like before jre inclusion^^
11:42	clgv	how did you include it until now?
11:42	cark	i never included it, i'm only now investigating it for a new project
11:43	cark	i'd love to have that web view thingie as gui instead of \|@#@ swing
12:05	clgv	cark: depending on how strong you are sold to javafx - vaadin might be an option as well
12:28	technomancy	http://www.bonkersworld.net/object-world/
12:30	hyPiRion	I suppose "object-oriented" => "java-enterprisey"
12:31	gtrak	yegge's kingdom of nouns is my fave
12:32	egghead	for want of a horse shoe nail
12:32	egghead	good reference
12:52	samrat	how would I send a file's contents using the PUT method? here's my current attempt which returns `ClassCastException [trace missing]`: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7668
12:52	samrat	I'm trying to use dropbox's api, btw
12:53	TimMc	Without a stack trace, that's pretty hard to debug.
12:53	TimMc	...but I'd check whether local-path is the value you think it is.
13:06	hyPiRion	Blech, Travis seems to fail authentication with GitHub
13:08	gfredericks	does != work well with the finite domain code?
13:12	gfredericks	oh I see there is a !=fd
13:12	dnolen	gfredericks: I commented on your ticket, and yes I would !=fd until the interaction between != and other constraints becomes more well understood.
13:12	samrat	TimMc: it should be something like "~/tmp/foo.bar" right?
13:13	gfredericks	dnolen: I saw the comment, thanks for the prompt response :) are you actively working on it or is it up for contributions?
13:14	dnolen	gfredericks: it's pretty low in the system - I'm working on it.
13:15	gfredericks	okay cool
13:16	TimMc	samrat: I can only guess wildly.
13:21	irctc712	stuck in a macro problem
13:22	irctc712	(defmacro init-db [params] `(doseq [[db-name host db] params] (defdb ~db-name (cfg/build-db-spec ~host ~db))))
13:22	irctc712	(defmacro init-db [params] `(doseq [[db-name# host# db#] ~params] (defdb db-name# (cfg/build-db-spec host# db#))))
13:22	irctc712	both don't work
13:23	hyPiRion	Well, what are the input parameters?
13:23	hyPiRion	The last one looks reasonable
13:24	hyPiRion	Though I'm not sure whether defdb is a macro or not. If it is, then it's attaching a gensym as name.
13:24	irctc712	yeah defdb is a macro
13:25	irctc712	the problem of second version is that db-name# should eval to real value, not just db-name#
13:25	irctc712	no idea how to do that
13:25	hyPiRion	Yeah, here's the issue: ##`(def db-name# :foo)
13:25	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
13:25	hyPiRion	meanie, lazybot.
13:25	hyPiRion	,`(def db-name# :foo)
13:25	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
13:25	llasram	irctc712: You need to iterate over `params` during macro-expansion
13:26	hyPiRion	or eval at runtime.
13:26	llasram	Or KILL BABIES
13:26	hyPiRion	clojurebot: eval
13:26	clojurebot	eval is evil
13:27	irctc712	hyPiRion: could you elaborate
13:27	ohpauleez	technomancy: Do you have a document of tips for Code Swarming? PDX is about to do our first one this week.
13:28	irctc712	is there a solution without using eval
13:29	llasram	irctc712: Yes. Your macro just needs to iterate over the groups in `params` itself, producing an expansion which contains `defdb` forms for every group
13:29	technomancy	ohpauleez: scripts and technical setup are in https://github.com/nuclearsandwich/swarming but the best general overview might be the clojure/west video here: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Swarm-Coding
13:30	ohpauleez	technomancy: Thanks!
13:31	llasram	irctc712: something like (defmacro init-db [params] `(do ~@(for [[db-name host db] params] `(defdb ~db-name (cfg/build-db-spec ~host ~db)))))
13:31	technomancy	ohpauleez: np; hope it goes well
13:31	irctc712	llasram: thanks, i'll have a try
13:31	hyPiRion	irctc712: llasram's solution is the "best" one in this case.
13:42	jweiss	what's the best way to avoid having to recompile multiple namespaces, when you change a var in one ns, that is referred to in several others? Let's say there are several levels of such references. seems like you would have to make them functions (maybe memoized)?
13:43	jweiss	(when i say referred to, i mean in a def)
13:43	S11001001	jweiss: you'd have to make the referring points into functions
13:44	jweiss	S11001001: yeah, i can get away with rebuilding the data each call at runtime but generally that is bad.
13:46	llasram	jweiss: Anything which actually references the var (normal Clojure function calls included) doesn't need to be re-compiled
13:46	jweiss	llasram: yeah, i mean compile-time values eg, (def x (inc other.ns/y))
13:46	jweiss	when i change y, i have to reeval that def
13:48	jweiss	i guess i'd change it to (defn x [] (inc other.ns/y))
13:49	duck1123	if y is a reference type, you could have a watcher update x when y changes, but that's probably not the best solution
13:52	auser	hola all
14:03	TimMc	jweiss: You could build a memoize variant that watches a single atom somewhere. Frob that atom, and all the "memos" are deleted.
14:16	dimovcih	hello people
14:17	dimovcih	can someone plz help me with some code...
14:17	TimMc	dimovcih: Just go ahead and ask your question; if someone can help they will answer.
14:17	dimovcih	why does (run a) cause the agent to fail with a null pointer error
14:17	dimovcih	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7669
14:20	TimMc	I have no idea what that code is supposed to be doing...
14:21	dimovcih	increase the value held in agent a by 1 each time process is sent
14:21	dimovcih	the same principle as the crawler example from Clojure Programming book
14:22	TimMc	Page?
14:22	dimovcih	222
14:23	gfredericks	it looks like it will bounce back and forth at least until the agent is at 10?
14:23	borkdude	dimovcih I also don't understand the code, but it works in my repl: #<Agent@31eeeaed: 10>
14:23	dimovcih	gfredericks: yes
14:23	dimovcih	borkdude: strange...
14:24	gfredericks	yeah I can't see why it wouldn't work
14:24	borkdude	dimovcih clojure 1.4.0 here
14:24	dimovcih	jeezzz... now it works for me too... wtf...
14:25	TimMc	dimovcih: Did you have old versions of those defns in your REPL, perhaps?
14:25	dimovcih	TimMC: maybe
14:25	TimMc	I'm not up to speed on how redefinitions happen, but I'm wondering if process referred to an old version of run.
14:26	dimovcih	I tested it a couple of times with restarting the repl and got the same error ...
14:26	dimovcih	well, good to know it was a repl issue, and not code
14:27	dimovcih	lol, thanks
14:27	TimMc	So frustrating when that happens.
14:39	ohpauleez	$findfn [[1 2 3][1 2][1]] [1 2 3]
14:39	lazybot	[clojure.core/first]
14:41	gfredericks	$findfn [1 2 3] [[1 2 3][1 2][1]]
14:41	lazybot	[]
14:42	gfredericks	$findfn [1 2 3] [[1 2 3][1 2][1][]]
14:42	lazybot	[]
14:42	AimHere	$findfn [true] [true]
14:42	lazybot	[clojure.set/union clojure.set/intersection clojure.set/difference clojure.core/list* clojure.core/time clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/distinct clojure.core/lazy-cat clojure.core/sequence clojure.core/rseq clojure.core/vec clojure.core/concat clojure.core/sequ... https://www.refheap.com/paste/7670
14:42	gtrak	ha
14:43	gtrak	$findfn [0] [1]
14:43	lazybot	[]
14:43	gtrak	$findfn [1] [0]
14:43	lazybot	[]
14:44	AimHere	$findfn [* [1 2 3 4 5 6]] [720]
14:44	lazybot	[]
14:44	ohpauleez	gfredericks: Thanks, that's the I messed up the arg order
14:45	ohpauleez	I swear I've seen and written a comp to do what I'm looking for, but I can think of it right now
14:45	AimHere	$findfn [[[1 2 3][1 2][1]] [1 2 3]] [[clojure.core/first]]
14:45	cark	what is this findfn thing ?
14:45	lazybot	[]
14:45	TimMc	cark: A lazybot plugin. It tests a bunch of fns against your args and output.
14:45	ohpauleez	it finds functions that give you the result, given some args
14:46	AimHere	You feed it arguments and outputs, and it finds the core function that gives the result
14:46	cark	mhh
14:46	ohpauleez	you can also use it locally, though I've never successfully done it
14:46	cark	$findfn 1 [1 2 3]
14:46	cark	what's the syntax ?
14:46	lazybot	[]
14:46	cark	$findfn [1 2 3] 1
14:46	AimHere	$findfn [5] [0 1 2 3 4]
14:46	lazybot	[clojure.core/first clojure.core/rand-nth]
14:46	AimHere	Hah, you got lucky there!
14:47	lazybot	[]
14:47	cark	haha
14:47	cark	nice one =)
14:47	cark	so last argument is the return value
14:47	AimHere	$findfn [5] (0 1 2 3 4)
14:47	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
14:47	AimHere	$findfn [5] '(0 1 2 3 4)
14:47	lazybot	[]
14:48	amalloy	ohpauleez: ##(take-while seq (iterate next [1 2 3]))?
14:48	lazybot	⇒ ([1 2 3] (2 3) (3))
14:48	cark	$findfn 5 '(0 1 2 3 4)
14:48	lazybot	[clojure.core/range]
14:48	cark	yay
14:48	cark	that's almost like a little game
14:48	ohpauleez	amalloy: That's basically what I have written now
14:48	cark	test your clojure knowledge !
14:49	ohpauleez	I felt like I had seen something more succinct before
14:49	amalloy	i don't think there's a very good way to build it with comp and builtins
14:49	AimHere	I remember some conj talk or something where the miniKanren guys wrote a program to generate all the scheme programs that evaluated to 6. findfn should go that route!
14:50	amalloy	if you want heads instead of tails, you can write ##(reductions conj [] [1 2 3])
14:50	lazybot	⇒ ([] [1] [1 2] [1 2 3])
14:50	cark	AimHere: exactly what i was pondering
14:50	AimHere	If there's no function in core that gives the answer, it should start making them up
14:50	cark	AimHere: the generated functions were mostly garbage tho =)
14:51	cark	(defn do-it [] 6) and the like
14:51	amalloy	&((fn [] ((fn [] ((fn [] 6))))))
14:51	lazybot	⇒ 6
14:51	cark	right =)
14:51	ohpauleez	amalloy: Ahh that totally works in my case
14:51	AimHere	I don't care. My mind boggles at the idea anyways
14:51	ohpauleez	thank you
14:52	amalloy	hah, really? asked the wrong question, then :)
14:52	technomancy	AimHere: it only works on the toy language they defined, not on actual scheme
14:52	ohpauleez	I did indeed
14:52	cark	technomancy: nothing prevents you from defining a more complete language, maybe a subset of clojure
14:52	ohpauleez	(I just have to change the sort for something I'm working with)
14:53	sgeo	Apparently there's no such thing as a language good enough that I will stick with it for a year
14:53	sgeo	Although there are some I keep coming back to again and again
14:53	cark	man i've been sticking to clojure for years now
14:53	cark	since before 1.0
14:54	cark	how long has that been ?
14:54	technomancy	cark: sure; in theory. I suspect it would be incredibly difficult to do it in a way that maintained compatibility with Clojure though.
14:54	sgeo	I think 1.0 was 2009?
14:54	cark	technomancy: if that was easy there would be much more generative programming around
14:54	sgeo	Or was that when Clojure was first created?
14:55	cark	technomancy: the idea is so exciting
14:55	dnolen	cark: technomancy: I think it would be quite challenging - still I think there may be utility in modeling very specific parts of a Clojure / Scheme program w/ their approach.
14:55	dnolen	challenging to model an entire language I mean, whether Scheme or Clojure
14:56	cark	maybe some hybrid mix of logic and evolutionary programming would help
14:57	amalloy	sgeo: 2009 seems kinda late. i know i picked it up in 2010, and 1.2 was released not long after that
14:58	sgeo	Wikipedia says 2007
14:58	sgeo	Doesn't say if that's 1.0 or an earlier release
14:58	technomancy	2009 is correct for 1.0; it was April or so
14:58	cark	once 1.0 came out, versions seemed to come faster than i could upgrade my existing projects. So could have been that fast
14:58	technomancy	same time as the first book
14:59	amalloy	technomancy: july 2009 apparently
14:59	amalloy	http://build.clojure.org/releases/org/clojure/clojure/1.0.0/
14:59	amalloy	presuming that the timestamps weren't later mucked with
15:00	technomancy	what the heck; changes.md only covers 1.4?
15:03	amalloy	who would ever care about any other version, am i right
15:06	technomancy	well, true of 1.4 specifically
15:10	amalloy	the git logs for clojure are interesting. apparently rich started work in march 2006, fiddled around a little until october, and then left it alone until june 2007
15:11	matthavener	amalloy: hickey was literally laying in a hammock from oct 06 to june 07 ;P
15:11	matthavener	sort of a software design coma
15:32	cark	I asked this earlier but want to ask again just in case. javafx is now distributed with the jre. The only trouble is that it is not in the classpath. It is a single jar file jfxrt.jar in the lib directory of the jre. what would be the project.clj incantation to add this classpath to lein in a portable manner ?
15:34	technomancy	cark: "exists somewhere in the JRE directory" and "portable" are mutually exclusive
15:34	cark	right; but it's included now on linux solaris and windows jre distributions, so there hsould be a way to access it ?
15:35	cark	i managed to add it to my local repo and use it this way, but I don't like this, as my version might not be compatible with future version of the jre
15:36	technomancy	you can hack it into :resource-paths, but like I said, you can't do it portably
15:36	llasram	cark: Is there an official way Oracle expects it to end up on the class path?
15:36	cark	i think they expect you to use netbeans =P
15:36	llasram	hah
15:37	cark	my poor emacs is just not to par ='(
15:40	ynniv	lazybot handles mail now?
15:41	Raynes	Yeah, it's pretty recently. Only like 2 years.
15:41	Raynes	;)
15:43	ynniv	guess I don't get a lot of mail
15:43	ynniv	is there a clojure validation library that's introspective?
15:44	amalloy	introspective sounds more like an implementation concern than a feature
15:45	ynniv	I have records that will be validated and want to show contextual UI elements for them
15:46	duck1123	are you doing this client or server side?
15:47	ynniv	yes
15:48	ynniv	I've grown a system that validates in clojure, exports descriptions as json, and creates the UI clientside
15:48	duck1123	I've been going between validateur and clj-schema for validating server side. I'm not sure which I like better
15:52	duck1123	with either one it should be simple to transform the error report into something you can use client side. I've been using backbone for my client-side models, but haven't hooked in validation yet
15:53	devinus	what's the binary number reader format?
15:54	amalloy	,101b
15:54	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 101b>
15:54	amalloy	aw
15:54	amalloy	,101r2
15:54	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 101r2>
15:54	hyPiRion	,2r100
15:54	clojurebot	4
15:54	amalloy	evidence, i suppose, that knowledge is more efficient than random guessing
15:54	llasram	I do like that it lets you express numbers in base 7 when relevant
15:55	borkdude	is there an example of a small simple imperative language built with clojure?
15:55	amalloy	it should automatically interpret 755 as octal; i can't think of any other reason to use that number in code
15:55	hyPiRion	Is there an example of a language built with clojure in the first place?
15:56	hyPiRion	I've not seen one, but would love to have a look at it.
15:56	llasram	I guess it depends on what one means by "language"
15:56	borkdude	llasram a language not represented as clojure sexps
15:56	llasram	Ah
15:57	ynniv	that's a different syntax, not a different language
15:57	ynniv	IIRC clojure doesn't have the extensible reader that common lisp has
15:58	hyPiRion	you have reader literals though
15:58	borkdude	ynniv an example of a small language with a simpe grammar, parsed and interpreted or compiled by clojure
15:58	borkdude	ynniv imperative
15:59	dnolen	borkdude: akhudek works on a logic programming language, here's another based on Inform7 targeted at kids http://github.com/maryrosecook/islaclj
15:59	ynniv	duck1123: I don't want to round trip and report errors, but use the validation schema to display a range for input, like a bounded slider
16:00	AimHere	You can fake an inline language with some use of macros
16:00	borkdude	dnolen tnx
16:00	duck1123	ynniv: Yeah. I don't know anything like that.
16:02	dnolen	borkdude: I'm sure I've seen some forths and I feel like I heard about a Java compiler.
16:03	borkdude	dnolen a Java compiler in Clojure….? ;)
16:03	dnolen	borkdude: yes, that using core.logic to do type checking and byte code verification
16:03	dnolen	uses
16:03	hyPiRion	heh, sounds like we're talking about unicorns or dinosaurs
16:03	hyPiRion	"I've sure I've seen some"
16:03	callen	I was wondering about a potential use-case for core.logic/match (not sure where it would live) and if it would produce pathological behavior or not. Specifically, if one could build up a rules-based / expert system efficiently out of matching rules ala predicate logic and if doing so would be reasonably efficient or not
16:03	hyPiRion	"I think I heard of"
16:04	callen	I realize my question is vague, but I can get more specific if anybody gets down to brass-tacks.
16:04	dnolen	hyPiRion: well I haven't seen it, but I got patches to core.logic, was a student project by one of the Storm devs
16:04	callen	Storm uses core.logic?
16:04	dnolen	callen: no
16:04	dnolen	the Java compiler project that was a term assignment
16:05	callen	dnolen: do you have any thoughts regarding my expert system question?
16:06	dnolen	callen: seems in the realm of possibility yes - but I've never looked very closely at expert systems nor how they are put together
16:06	callen	dnolen: the reason I'm envisioning this is that I'm trying to avoid hacking up a custom AI model or abusing a database.
16:06	dnolen	callen: well you probably end up hacking core.logic - so work will have to be done somewhere ;)
16:06	callen	dnolen: well, just imagine something like a very large collection of "if statements/predicates", and you want to explore that space and get a list of "yeses" efficiently.
16:07	callen	dnolen: taking for granted that some hacking will be necessary, does that sound like an efficient/appropriate use-case?
16:07	callen	dnolen: in particular, something that will help is being able to detect related spaces of predicates so that you can treat it like "20 questions"
16:07	dnolen	callen: yes I think it would be interesting to use core.match for large decision tree optimization, but we'd probably need to patch core.match for that use case since there are code size limits on the JVM.
16:07	callen	dnolen: where you narrow down the problem/question space as quickly as possible by matching against meta-rules that invalidate as many possibilities at once at a time.
16:08	callen	this is simultaneously an interest of mine and a potential "business problem" to be solved at my startup.
16:08	callen	the "MVP" version is just if-statements, but I'd rather do it more intelligently if we've proven that it's a useful bit of functionality.
16:09	callen	dnolen: part of the problem is compiling and pre-preparing a tree that can efficiently eliminate as many possibilities at time as possible.
16:09	dnolen	callen: well that's what core.match does
16:09	dnolen	with the specific goal of pattern matching in mind of course.
16:09	callen	dnolen: that sounds like it could work, I'm just wondering how flexible it would be
16:10	callen	because it might mean projecting our data model into a big tuple of pre-prepared predicates. Another issue is that I don't want to match a single case, but rather, get a list of possibilities.
16:10	dnolen	callen: patterns are not first class - and it generate Clojure code - so the obvious limitations there
16:12	callen	I get that they're not first-class, I'm just not sure if my modeling of it as, "give everything that's true without testing redundant possibilities" is sensible for core.match. I thought of it as being more comparable to erlang/haskell type pattern matching.
16:13	dnolen	callen: yes, it's pretty much erlang/haskell style pattern matching.
16:13	callen	right, which leads to my aforementioned concern that it's a mis-matched use-case.
16:13	callen	my impression was that it was designed to narrow down into a single test-case efficiently
16:14	callen	not explore a multi-faceted search space, avoiding redundant test-cases, efficiently.
16:14	dnolen	callen: right.
16:14	callen	let me propose an alternative, and maybe this will better articulate what I'm thinking of.
16:14	dnolen	callen: in some distant future, core.logic ideally would have it's own version of the pattern matching optimizations.
16:15	callen	you have a user, for which things could be true or not. You have rules you want to match the user against, thereby creating a list of possibilities.
16:15	callen	a hypothetical model is treating the rules as a literal collection of "documents" in an indexed search engine and using a constraint solver of sorts to generate a pre-prepared query to search that space based on the content of the user's data.
16:16	callen	then returning all the "matching" documents which happen to be "things that are possibly relevant to this user"
16:16	callen	alternately, treating each document/rule as a matching rule in a predicate logic/pattern matcher type system.
16:16	callen	One is the inversion of the other, hypothetically.
16:17	callen	dnolen: I'm sorry if I'm being opaque or wasting your time. Thanks for your consideration so far.
16:19	dnolen	callen: sounds like something worth modeling in core.logic - not sure if it can deliver the desired performance you want. though I could imagine some wacky cool solution that perhaps tries to leverage both. sorry I can't be more helpful.
16:19	callen	dnolen: it's quite alright. the reason for the search engine thing is predictable soft real-time performance.
16:21	dnolen	callen: yeah if something already solves the problem and won't create a mountain of headache - little reason to try to cobble something crazy together from alpha quality open source libs
16:26	devinus	are regex's compiled during the compile stage or when the program is run?
16:26	egghead	runtime i'd imagine
16:26	egghead	though I don't know for sure either way
16:27	amalloy	read time
16:27	TimMc	I thought regex literals were interned at compile time, but I couldn't produce any evidence of it.
16:28	TimMc	&(read-string "#\"[\"")
16:28	lazybot	java.util.regex.PatternSyntaxException: Unclosed character class near index 0[^
16:28	TimMc	^ amalloy is right about it being read time
16:28	devinus	i wonder why
16:29	m0smith	hi
16:29	egghead	does java even support regex at compile time? It doesn't have regex literals
16:29	m0smith	I have a Lein question
16:30	devinus	egghead: i know java doesn't, but i wonder if there would be a way to just store the compiled representation in the class file
16:30	m0smith	which is: In Maven I can filter resources so that the contents of the file is changed to include build info like artifactId and the like
16:30	m0smith	Does Lein support the same thing/
16:30	m0smith	?
16:30	TimMc	It seems like you ought to be able to write a plugin to do that.
16:31	m0smith	egghead: no, regexs in Java are simply strings that are compiled
16:32	m0smith	egghead: the Pattern object can be serialized
16:32	devinus	m0smith: if it can be serialized you'd imagine it could be compiled at compile-time
16:33	m0smith	devinus: I imagine an annotation could be written to do that
16:33	amalloy	the serialized form of a j.u.regex.Pattern is just a string. it doesn't store any of the interesting stuff
16:34	devinus	ah
16:35	amalloy	(i recommend having a local copy of the jdk source; it makes answering this sorts of questions so much easier)
16:35	devinus	Erlang's re module returns the compiled regex as a binary, allowing Elixir to embed the compiled regex during compilation
16:40	devinus	is there anybody doing interesting SOAP work in Clojure?
16:40	devinus	(well, as interesting as possible given that it's SOAP)
16:41	brehaut	devinus: no offense, but thats the stupidest thing ive heard in a while
16:41	m0smith	I was just pondering a JAX-WS client in Clojure
16:41	devinus	brehaut: which comment?
16:41	brehaut	devinus: SOAP in clojure
16:41	devinus	brehaut: why's that?
16:41	brehaut	well because its soap
16:41	technomancy	or the phrase "interesting SOAP work"
16:41	devinus	so?
16:42	brehaut	SOAP is the current pinnicle of design by committee meta type systems for RMI
16:42	brehaut	over XML
16:42	brehaut	its the cross product of 4 types of crazy
16:43	devinus	hah
16:43	TimMc	brehaut: That's impressive. I though you could only take the cross product of two vectors.
16:43	m0smith	So how hard would it be to throw a WSDL at clojure?
16:43	devinus	considering i've had to work with SOAP in: PHP, Python, Scala, and most recently Erlang I'm aware of SOAP's crazy
16:43	devinus	but the fact is, people still have to work with soap, regardless of what language they're using
16:44	devinus	so i thought seeing Clojure's answer to it would be interesting
16:44	brehaut	devinus: i think clojures answer is: cry, and then just use Java.
16:44	llasram	brehaut: +1
16:45	llasram	I've been doing some UPnP stuff helping a friend with a personal project, and just counting on the existing Java libraries to insulate me
16:48	devinus	amalloy: regarding binary numbers, I swear i just read in JoC that there was a literal binary syntax
16:48	brehaut	devinus: having implemented one stupid RPC mechanism in clojure, i can understand the motivation. but learn from my fail, and dont take on something as insane as soap
16:48	technomancy	you have to draw the line somewhere
16:50	gtrak	,(Integer/parseInt "0110" 2)
16:50	clojurebot	6
16:51	amalloy	devinus: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L64 is all the integer patterns, and there's clearly no binary pattern (aside from the r2 suffix, of course)
16:53	egghead	on demand dynamic scoping is really nifty, thanks clojure!
16:55	TimMc	"clearly", he says, pointing devinus at a big ol' regex
16:57	solussd	is it possible to type hint using a Protocol name? e.g. (defn blah [^SomeProto obj] (proto-func obj)) ?
16:57	TimMc	It also clearly allows 99rf00. :-P
16:58	amalloy	TimMc: if you're a regex pansy, you can look at https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/LispReader.java#L362 instead
16:58	hyPiRion	,99rf00
16:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Radix out of range>
16:58	hyPiRion	for the masses.
16:58	amalloy	solussd: that would not be a useful typehint: it cannot improve performance
16:59	solussd	amalloy: maybe not, but would I get a reflection warning if I passed something else?
16:59	amalloy	you don't get that with typehints anyway
16:59	amalloy	&((fn [^String x] x) 10)
16:59	lazybot	⇒ 10
17:00	amalloy	typehints are performance optimizations, not a static type checker
17:00	devinus	i didn't realize rich was fond of Whitesmiths style indentation
17:02	solussd	amalloy: yeah, but I thought they helped the compiler avoid reflection
17:02	solussd	err, runtime
17:02	technomancy	I always assumed the indentation style used in Clojure's Java implementation was a nameless horror.
17:02	technomancy	kind of disturbing to learn there's a name for it as that implies other people use it
17:02	amalloy	yes, that is a performance optimization that has no impact on what warnings you get at compile time
17:02	callen	technomancy: the horror isn't nameless...Cthulhu ftagn!
17:03	dnolen	solussd: type hints are only about interop, primitive arrays & unboxed arithmetic. anywhere else they have no effect.
17:03	gtrak	technomancy: it's popular for C
17:03	amalloy	dnolen: primitive deftype fields!
17:03	devinus	technomancy: lol
17:03	dnolen	amalloy: oops, right
17:03	solussd	dnolen: any point in type hinting for record types?
17:03	callen	I'm a fan of this indent style: if (blah) {
17:03	dnolen	solussd: primitive fields as amalloy pointed out
17:04	solussd	dnolen: how about for functions I write that take a record type?
17:04	dnolen	solussd: if you want static type checking - help ambrosebs type the rest of clojure.core
17:04	amalloy	solussd: just for performance of looking up the fields
17:04	dnolen	solussd: the 4 cases above is it.
17:04	solussd	dnolen: amalloy: thanks
17:05	brehaut	callen: clojure's java source is the gate and the key, and the guardian of the gate. past, present and future, all are one.
17:05	solussd	dnolen: watched your techmesh core.logic talk thismorning- awesome stuff.
17:05	dnolen	solussd: thx!
17:06	callen	(inc brehaut)
17:06	lazybot	⇒ 8
17:06	devinus	what's a super tight clojure data structure i can use for packed values
17:06	dnolen	solussd: btw to be clear, type hints on protocols wouldn't make anything go any faster - protocol dispatch if the implementation was inline delivers host dispatch perf on the JVM.
17:06	solussd	I think I'll use pre-conditions where I feel I need to. I hate static typign. :D
17:06	solussd	good to know
17:06	hyPiRion	Humm
17:06	dnolen	solussd: I'm still pondering on how we can deliver close to same guarantee on CLJS ...
17:07	aperiodic	devinus: primitive byte arrays?
17:07	gtrak	devinus: bytebuffer?
17:07	devinus	bytebuffer looks promising
17:08	amalloy	naw, solussd, you just hate badly-implemented static typing. static typing in, eg, haskell is pretty nice. choosing between good static typing and dynamic typing is a matter of taste; choosing java's static typing instead is worth hating
17:08	callen	amalloy: careful what you say re: Haskell and "nice"
17:09	callen	amalloy: that's only true when you're not using a library that has incredibly invasive monads that you keep having to ditch.
17:09	solussd	amalloy: you're right- I like haskell static typing- I hate it when static typing feels like it's getting in my way.
17:09	callen	this is the same community that looks for excuses to turn every problem into parser combinators.
17:11	solussd	the things I most frequently want a statically typed version of are records
17:12	gtrak	why?
17:12	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
17:12	duck1123	I want static typing whenever I'm looking at docs and all it says is that it takes a function.
17:13	brehaut	duck1123: totally
17:13	solussd	yeah, that too- or better documentation. :D
17:13	technomancy	duck1123: so you wish everyone else used it but you didn't have to? =)
17:13	brehaut	technomancy: how great would that be :)
17:13	technomancy	like public transit or being carbon-neutral
17:14	gtrak	I thought we make the tradeoff that the code is so minimal, reading it is practical
17:14	technomancy	I would be happy with non-nullable Object
17:14	technomancy	thrilled, in fact
17:14	brehaut	likewise
17:15	technomancy	◔ <- a pie chart of how many type errors I make that aren't NPEs
17:15	amalloy	technomancy: i would like static typing when writing documentation, so that i can say what the dang function takes. it's so wordy to write junk like "returns a function f which takes a collection coll and a function g, and maps g over coll"
17:15	technomancy	amalloy: meh; "takes a collection coll" is redundant
17:15	duck1123	I was interested in typed clojure till I saw the video where clojure.set was being typed. That scared me away slightly
17:16	brehaut	duck1123: im still interested, but i dont think i'd use it till it has an inferencer
17:16	amalloy	whatever, i just made that example up as fast as my fingers could type. the point is that i have written functions where the doc is difficult to write clearly
17:16	technomancy	amalloy: IME this is most likely to lead to mistakes when a concept has multiple representations in the code and there's no consistency in local names
17:17	technomancy	for instance, user-id vs user; is bare "user" a map or was someone lazy?
17:18	technomancy	duck1123: yeah, without inference I'm certainly not going to take the time to annotate things
17:18	egghead	clojure partials with multi arity fns are such a fine magic
17:18	gtrak	I have an example: "Accepts n-args of thunks that either return an error (value of some sort) or falsy, reduces over them and accumulates any errors. Returns nil if none."
17:19	gtrak	the doc is 5 times as long as the function: (->> (map #(%) checks) (filter identity) seq))
17:20	devinus	you would think that so would change his username
17:20	amalloy	"Returns only the truthy results of invoking the supplied thunks", gtrak
17:21	llasram	devinus: I know, right? It's been driving me crazy
17:21	gtrak	amalloy: I suppose that's better :-)
17:21	amalloy	the implementation is easier too: (seq (keep #(%) checks))
17:21	gtrak	ah, keep, I never use that one, thanks!
17:21	amalloy	although i guess that changes the meaning such that false now counts as an error
17:22	hyPiRion	yeah
17:22	gtrak	ah, that's probably why I never use keep, I rarely need to differentiate between false and nil
17:22	hyPiRion	,(keep identity [true false nil :foo])
17:22	clojurebot	(true false :foo)
17:26	devinus	is there a function for (keep identity coll) ?
17:27	devinus	(keepident coll)
17:27	hyPiRion	A function for removing nils?
17:27	hyPiRion	(remove nil? coll) is probably more evident
17:27	technomancy	functions that are a trivial partial application of two existing functions generally don't get top-level definitions
17:28	devinus	technomancy: probably a good philosophy to have
17:29	brehaut	oh metaWeblog, no. base64 encoded media uploads‽ how is that ever going to be a good idea
17:29	S11001001	doesn't prevent occasional if-not, though
17:29	technomancy	S11001001: yeah, IMO that's kind of silly
17:30	technomancy	if-let is nicer, but only because macros aren't as composable as functions
17:30	tgoossens	if have a vector [1 2 1] and some collection. i want to sequentially "take&drop the given amount in the vector. Example coll [a b c d] ,vector [1 2 1] it should return [[a] [b c] [d]]
17:30	technomancy	S11001001: if someone proposed adding if-not today it would get shot down with prejudice before you could blink
17:30	tgoossens	any ideas?
17:31	AimHere	tgoossens, I'd knock up something using loop and recur and take
17:31	amalloy	technomancy: really?
17:31	S11001001	tgoossens: you need a reduction
17:31	tgoossens	i was thinking that as well
17:31	tgoossens	(recur)
17:31	tgoossens	i'll go with that for now
17:31	S11001001	technomancy: I would hope so
17:31	gtrak	a case of 'programmer-convenience thinking' :-)
17:33	dnolen	\me likes if-not when-not just fine
17:34	gtrak	I really don't like '(if (seq ..
17:34	hyPiRion	gtrak: I tend to use (if (empty? .. instead
17:34	dnolen	also they leave the door open for some clever optimization by CLJ implementations like CLJS if the host language has effed up notions of truthy falsey like JS
17:35	gtrak	hyPiRion: yea... seq is supposed to be idiomatic according to the docs
17:35	gtrak	empty? is more intuitive, but (not (empty? is discouraged
17:35	hyPiRion	Call me stupid, but I think it reads better
17:35	hyPiRion	why is that?
17:35	hyPiRion	better to use not-empty ?
17:36	technomancy	yeah, seq is not an english word
17:36	gtrak	,(doc empty?)
17:36	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll has no items - same as (not (seq coll)). Please use the idiom (seq x) rather than (not (empty? x))"
17:36	technomancy	even its clojure definition makes no sense in a conditional
17:37	gtrak	so now I just call seq on my returns values of things... for the convenience of client ifs... I guess that might be bad.
17:37	amalloy	gtrak: that's not really very nice, because it forces evaluation of a seq that might never get consumed at all, and which might be expensive
17:38	gtrak	just the head, I thought
17:38	hyPiRion	,(take 4 (seq (range)))
17:38	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3)
17:38	technomancy	gtrak: depends on chunking
17:38	gtrak	yea, in this use-case, error checks on a web-service input, there will always be a conditional realizing it
17:39	gtrak	otherwise there's no need to do it in the first place
17:40	AimHere	Isn't seq bad for testing of empty, since it evals the first element?
17:41	gtrak	AimHere: there's no other way
17:41	gtrak	I think this notion of falsity should have matching conditionals though... it's common for me at least
17:41	AimHere	Hmm, (not (empty? [])) also evaluates it, fair enough
17:42	gtrak	I guess you could implement an 'empty' protocol, or something equivalent
17:43	AimHere	Trap compiler exceptions and if they're unresolved symbols of the form foo-not, turn them into (not (foo ...))
17:45	gtrak	huh, what the heck does #! do?
17:46	gtrak	ah, 'CommentReader'
17:46	gtrak	that's new to me
17:46	gtrak	,#! WTF MATE
17:46	amalloy	gtrak: it's a trick to make shebang work
17:46	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:46	hyPiRion	heh
17:46	gtrak	ah
17:47	amalloy	#! is strictly identical to ;
17:49	matthavener	does anyone use shebang? is there a nice workaround to the jvm startup?
17:49	hyPiRion	I use it for scripts
17:50	hyPiRion	and for the jvm startup time, there's always Drip
17:51	matthavener	wow, drip is awesome, thanks hyPiRion
17:51	gtrak	for the clojure startup time, you can lazyload libs by using (require..) and resolve at runtime
17:51	TimMc	gtrak: And don't forget &\| (+ 2 3) \|&, of course.
17:51	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:51	gtrak	wha?
17:51	TimMc	Yeah man, &\|
17:52	TimMc	(Kidding, it's some random lazybot eval delimiter.)
17:52	gtrak	haha
17:53	TimMc	,'(&\|5\|&)
17:53	clojurebot	(&\|5\|&)
17:53	TimMc	Mmm, it's just like ##
17:54	hyPiRion	,'( &\| 42 \|& )
17:54	clojurebot	(&\| 42 \|&)
17:54	hyPiRion	boo
17:54	TimMc	,'(&\|(+ 2 3)\|&)
17:54	clojurebot	(&\| (+ 2 3) \|&)
17:54	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:54	lazybot	⇒ 5
17:55	TimMc	hyPiRion: THe inline eval feature demands parens, or maybe one other leading char.
17:55	ynniv	hmm, what's wrong with (not (empty? x))
17:55	ynniv	i usually use (comp not nil?) to filter my collections
17:55	hyPiRion	&\| (+ 1 2) (+ 3 4) ; \|&
17:55	lazybot	⇒ 3
17:56	hyPiRion	&\| (+ 1 2) ##(+ 3 4) ; \|&
17:56	lazybot	⇒ 7
17:56	TimMc	ynniv: Golfers will get annoyed because you could usually just write (seq x).
17:56	TimMc	hyPiRion: It only takes the first form anyhow.
17:56	TimMc	Oh, I see. nvm
17:56	hyPiRion	Unless you inject some ##'s within there
17:56	lazybot	⇒ s
17:57	brehaut	TimMc: ive always wonder what running maven backwards would do.
17:57	brehaut	would it restore sanitiy?
17:57	ynniv	TimMc: umm, what if I have non-collections in my list?
17:58	wingy	I have a HTML form that makes a POST go a POST route .. should a POST route redirect to a GET route or is it okay for it to return a HTML response with a body?
17:58	ynniv	,(filter (comp not nil?) '(a b c nil d))
17:58	clojurebot	(a b c d)
17:58	brehaut	wingy: if you redirect a post to a get it stops accidental double-submits
17:58	ynniv	,(filter seq '(a b c nil d))
17:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
17:59	wingy	brehaut: what do you mean?
17:59	gtrak	ynniv: that's a lot like identity
18:00	auser	hey all
18:00	gtrak	ynniv: err, wait... just use (remove nil? ...)
18:00	TimMc	wingy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post/Redirect/Get
18:00	brehaut	wingy: say your post creates a DB item. (eg, posting a comment on a blog). a double submit will result in the same comment appearing in the DB (and thus on the page) twice. If you just return HTML from the POST route, then double submits are possible, but if you redirect to the GET instead, then the interaction error that causes double submits is avoided
18:00	ynniv	gtrak: depends on whether falsey means false or no return value
18:00	brehaut	(inc TimMc)
18:00	lazybot	⇒ 22
18:01	ynniv	remove nil? expands into (comp not nil?) anyway. 6 of one?
18:02	amalloy	TimMc: inline eval demands a collection of any sort
18:02	gtrak	ynniv: I usually go for minimal surface area and maximum display of intent..
18:02	gtrak	(remove nil? ... ) reads easily
18:02	karbak	Trying to understand how the following works - (if (#{:a :b :c} foo) (then-clause) (else-clause)) - specifically the syntax around (#{..} foo)
18:03	gtrak	karbak: using a set as a function checks for containment
18:03	bbloom	,(#{:a :b :c} 1)
18:03	clojurebot	nil
18:03	bbloom	,(#{:a :b :c} :b)
18:03	clojurebot	:b
18:03	bbloom	,(boolean nil)
18:03	clojurebot	false
18:03	bbloom	,(boolean :b)
18:03	clojurebot	true
18:04	hyPiRion	If you don't have false or nil in the map, then it's the same as the following
18:04	ynniv	thats fair, but you don't always get to specify filter vs remove
18:04	hyPiRion	(if (contains? #{:a :b :c} foo) (then) (else))
18:04	wingy	brehaut: i c .. so PRG is a good thing
18:04	brehaut	wingy: yes
18:05	gtrak	,(contains #{nil} nil)
18:05	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: contains in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:05	gtrak	,(contains? #{nil} nil)
18:05	clojurebot	true
18:05	gtrak	,(contains? #{} nil)
18:05	clojurebot	false
18:06	gtrak	nil is a silly thing to have in a set
18:06	karbak	gtrak: thanks, forgot that worked both ways. What kind of object is #{...} - a sequence of some kind?
18:06	metellus	it's a set
18:06	gtrak	,(class #{})
18:06	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
18:07	ynniv	gtrak: why? could be a set of valid inputs
18:07	gtrak	I'm writing a function that only takes nil or 4... 2 is right out!
18:08	ynniv	you laugh...
18:08	gtrak	nah, I'm kidding, it's practical I guess.. but strange if you try to think about it too hard
18:08	wingy	if i have a ring session and wants to keep it then i shouldn't return a new :session key-value/pair?
18:09	ynniv	that's why I never got into haskell
18:09	ynniv	it always feels like they're thinking too hard
18:09	gtrak	wingy: the session middleware will do it for you unless you explicitly clear the session with ':session nil'
18:09	wingy	gtrak: great
18:10	gtrak	I also found myself writing a function to copy a session from a request into a response, in case I want to modify something and I don't want to use the sandbar approach
18:11	gtrak	but an empty :session key on a response doesn't alter anything
18:12	wingy	I get "java.lang.NullPointerException" in Ring response but i can't get what causes it
18:12	wingy	there is no stack trace as well
18:13	gtrak	is *e bound?
18:15	gtrak	,*e
18:15	clojurebot	#<Unbound Unbound: #'clojure.core/*e>
18:15	gtrak	hmm, I bet that only works at the repl
18:15	gtrak	&*e
18:15	lazybot	⇒ #<Unbound Unbound: #'clojure.core/*e>
18:17	wingy	gtrak: *e was great to get an error message
18:19	octagon	hi, is there a way to accomplish the same as the javascript "a instanceof B" in clojurescript?
18:19	dnolen	octagon: instance?
18:20	octagon	awesome, thanks dnolen
18:20	dnolen	(instance? String "foo")
18:20	dnolen	for example
18:21	octagon	dnolen: thanks, that looks like what i need. there is nothing in any of the refcards about it, by the way
18:22	dnolen	octagon: yeah I'm not in charge of those - might be worth bringing up on the ML or contacting the people that keep them up-to-date
18:23	devinus	i wonder why apropos returns a list
18:23	devinus	instead of a vector
18:24	amalloy	it surely returns a lazy sequence
18:24	bbloom	,(class (apropos "do"))
18:24	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
18:25	devinus	amalloy: ah, curse me getting ahead of myself
18:26	devinus	i just started the chapter on laziness in JoC
18:26	devinus	to me it just looked like a list
18:28	amalloy	that's the idea
18:33	wingy	i've got a design issue .. so im using datomic where the attributes have a certain data type eg. float, string etc. the form returning the fields (attributes) are all in strings .. so i should convert the form params to appropriate data type manually?
18:34	gtrak	yes? that should be a function of a serialization/deserialization lib, or you should validate your inputs
18:36	gtrak	generally, you should have the front layer of your app responsible for validating user input, and persistence code should never have to deal with that
18:36	wingy	gtrak: yeah
18:37	wingy	i wonder how i could know what data type each form field is
18:42	gtrak	you mean.. .like a schema?
19:02	wingy	gtrak: lucky me datomic's attributes are just saved as data so i can query them to get what type they are
19:02	gtrak	ah, that's neat
19:04	wingy	yepp … made my day
19:05	samflores	hey, where did seq-utils go?
19:06	technomancy	samflores: various places; looking for a specific function?
19:07	samflores	find-first
19:07	technomancy	is that the same as (first (filter ...))?
19:08	samflores	yeah, I know. I'm using it. justo wondering if I'm reinventing something that's already implemented :)
19:08	samflores	s/justo/just/
19:08	technomancy	functions that are a trivial partial application of two existing functions generally don't get top-level definitions
19:08	technomancy
19:08	samflores	ok, then. thanks
19:10	technomancy	s/partial application/composition/
19:10	technomancy	np
19:10	gtrak	didn't you just say that 30 minutes ago?
19:10	technomancy	yep =)
19:11	technomancy	IRC is easy when you can just pound M-p
19:11	gtrak	ha
19:11	gtrak	careful, you might fail the turing test
19:12	callen	given what I've heard about technomancy being tall and having an evil goatee, he'd be the tallest, most evil markov chain that ever was.
19:12	AimHere	Well that's because Mark V Chaney was a midget
19:13	callen	AimHere: Shaney
19:13	AimHere	Actually it's Markoff I was thinking of
19:13	AimHere	Mark V Shaney was a bot. Markoff Chaney was the midget
19:14	callen	AimHere: you don't run into many people that read that series these days.
19:15	AimHere	Yeah, seems to have fallen out of fashion
19:15	callen	AimHere: I think the general sub-culture died with the 90s
19:15	gtrak	hm, I'm guessing it's generally a bad idea to capture a handle to a ring request map and send it off to an async thread
19:16	callen	gtrak: nothing is a bad idea as long as you set your expectations very low.
19:16	callen	"this could explode in my face. Okay then."
19:16	gtrak	ha, it's rare that I worry about a memory leak these days.. but it might bring me to it
19:17	gtrak	closures just make it so easy!
19:18	samflores	is there a way to define a function in a ns other than the current one?
19:19	egghead	what are you doing that makes you want to do that samflores
19:19	gtrak	samflores: yes, you can switch ns mid-stride
19:19	technomancy	it's possible but not wise
19:19	egghead	changing ns and then deffing something inside a fn, makes my skin crawl!
19:19	brehaut	gtrak: I would be curious what the lifespan of a ring :body is on the request. It may well not live beyond the lifespan of the request / response cycle
19:20	brehaut	(and may be adapter / server dependant)
19:20	gtrak	well, it shouldn't, but that means there has to be some indirection in the input/outputstreams, I guess that's what they're for, after all
19:21	brehaut	gtrak: shouldnt might be a flexible notion in context of keepalive
19:21	samflores	I'm making a macro (yeah, I know I probably shouldn't) that defines some functions in it's own ns
19:21	gtrak	it seems like one of those clojure-java value chasms
19:22	gtrak	what's a 'value' in the presence of mutability?
19:22	technomancy	an integer? =)
19:24	hyPiRion	uh, that's news to me
19:25	hyPiRion	,(meta (with-meta '(1 2) {:foo 1}))
19:25	clojurebot	{:foo 1}
19:26	hyPiRion	,(meta ^{:foo 1} '(1 2))
19:26	clojurebot	nil
19:26	hyPiRion	,(meta ^{:foo 10} (list 1 2))
19:26	clojurebot	nil
19:28	hyPiRion	Anyone with experience with metadata
19:28	hyPiRion	that could explain the results above for me? I get the (quote (1 2)), but the (list 1 2)?
19:29	hyPiRion	In addition, elaborating why quoted lists automatically has {:line lineno} attached would be a great addition.
19:33	brehaut	hyPiRion: i know next to nothing about metadata but reader metadata (such as is attached with ^) is intended for clojure the language, whereas if you want meta data in your program you want with-meta i believe.
19:34	brehaut	hyPiRion: from memory reader metadata is attached to forms that are read, not the functions that are evaluated
19:34	brehaut	hyPiRion: thus ^{:foo 1} (list 1 2 3) is attaching the metadata map to the list '(list 1 2 3) not the list created by evaluating that expression '(1 2 3)
19:35	brehaut	hyPiRion: i suspect that lists that you get back from the reader have metadata annotating textual information because thats useful for error reporting
19:36	hyPiRion	Well, that's consistent with what I'm seeing here. Thanks
19:36	hyPiRion	(inc brehaut)
19:36	lazybot	⇒ 9
19:36	hyPiRion	I learned something today too.
19:36	brehaut	hyPiRion: it might also be wrong ;)
19:36	bosie	https://gist.github.com/6c7b342124669300d461
19:36	brehaut	hyPiRion: thats based entirely what ive read, not what i know from looking at the implementation or experience
19:37	bosie	why does this result in: Actual: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: length for class [Ljava.io.File;
19:37	ddima	does anybody have a good source/or collection handy for an explanation or something why TCO is not done? The argument in the doc is that clj uses java calling conventions, which seem to prevent it. Thought I wasnt able to find anything obvious looking thorugh http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se7/jvms7.pdf and some smilar sources.
19:37	bosie	clearly length is not executed as an instance method, right?
19:37	ddima	I guess a thread from the ML could do too ;)
19:37	hyPiRion	,(. length (into-array [1 2 3]))
19:37	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: length in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:38	brehaut	ddima: its not done for interop reasons.
19:38	arohner	ddima: the JVM can't tail call across function boundaries, in the general case
19:38	arohner	or more specifically, can't goto across fn boundaries, because of security restrictions that may be in place
19:38	ddima	ok, and within functions? (why do we need recur for simple and no co-recursion?)
19:38	bosie	hyPiRion: i guess i should have an epiphany now but... ;)
19:39	hyPiRion	bosie: I just wanted to confirm my suspicion
19:39	ddima	I mean, I really do not know the jvm too well, what would be a good read and could shed light on how its done and what it can do (and obviously not do)
19:39	bosie	hyPiRion: hm
19:39	arohner	ddima: recur asserts that you're in a tail call spot, so it's mostly a safety/asthetic thing
19:39	p_l	search for bytecode reference
19:40	brehaut	,(source alength)
19:40	clojurebot	Source not found
19:40	ddima	p_l: I actually thought that the pdf linked above would be an authoritative source, but there literally not a single mention of calling conventions
19:40	brehaut	(source alength)
19:40	brehaut	bah
19:41	brehaut	bosie: i think you want alength anyway
19:41	ddima	arohner: hm, ok, so it would actually be possible to omit recur within one function. Im just curious and looking to dig deeper because I had a lengthy discussion with a passionate non-clojurist and he really had a problem with recur.
19:41	p_l	ddima: the calling convention of java is very straightforward - put arguments on stack, call, then take return value from stack
19:41	bosie	hyPiRion: brehaut heh, thats what i am trying
19:41	bosie	now
19:41	bosie	alength works
19:41	p_l	it is, after all, a stack machine
19:41	ddima	arohner: his argument was that any good compiler sould detect it (true), and that an explicit recur should not be needed. I only was able to cite interop reasons from memory but couldnt back up with hard jvm facts ;)
19:42	brehaut	ddima: its entirely possible to do so. scala does TCO i believe
19:42	brehaut	ddima: its an explicit choice to come down on this side of the tradeoff, not due to some compiler implementation deficiency in the clojure community
19:42	arohner	ddima: yes, it shouldn't be necessary, but I do like the tail-call checking
19:42	arohner	it's helped me several times
19:43	arohner	I'd like to see an optional (assert-tail-call (foo)) in scheme
19:43	arohner	if I ever wrote scheme again, that is
19:43	ddima	arohner: personally I dont have a problem with it either, it just was a 'hangup' for the guy, as it seemed as a less 'real tco', since explicit
19:44	ddima	p_l: thanks for the pointer, thats what i assumed but somehow wasnt able to grasp from the doc.
19:44	wingy	noob question: how do i for loop a map?
19:44	p_l	ddima: I think the docs for jvm tend to assume that, because "stack machine" is pretty common stuff
19:44	brehaut	wingy: seq on a map results in a seq of pairs (vectors)
19:45	brehaut	,(map identity {:a 1 :b 2})
19:45	clojurebot	([:a 1] [:b 2])
19:45	wingy	my intention is to convert the map to another one .. so maybe i should use a map
19:45	gtrak	ddima: there's work on some macros implementing TCO via CPS transform : https://github.com/cjfrisz/clojure-tco
19:45	ddima	p_l: hehe, maybe. but assumptions are bad. i mean, they have funny 'complex' opcodes like iconst_5 and iload_2...
19:45	brehaut	,(for [[k v] {1 2 3 4}] (+ k v))
19:45	clojurebot	(3 7)
19:45	brehaut	wingy ^
19:45	AimHere	There's various ways of doing that sort of thing, wingy
19:45	ddima	p_l: or maybe im an idiot, who knows.
19:46	wingy	cool
19:46	brehaut	wingy: you might be wanting to (into {} (map … ))
19:46	wingy	yeah
19:46	p_l	ddima: those are iirc specialized forms for generic iconst and iload instructions that load certain common stuff
19:46	brehaut	wingy: return a vector pair from your map function
19:46	hyPiRion	,(. (into-array ["foo"]) length)
19:46	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: length for class [Ljava.lang.String;>
19:46	hyPiRion	hm.
19:46	wingy	i should know what i wanna get out of it first and then use the correct fn .. since its fp style
19:46	ddima	p_l: yes, true. still interesting and unusual, at least to me.
19:46	p_l	ddima: so you call them without argument(s)
19:46	wingy	brehaut: oh yeah i forgot map is only working for arrays right?
19:47	brehaut	wingy: i have no idea what you mean
19:47	AimHere	Map works on collections
19:47	brehaut	wingy: map works on anything seqable
19:47	ddima	gtrak: thanks, will take a look at that.
19:47	p_l	for example, 0 and 1 are common values in integers (all those compaisons with 0 etc.), so there's special opcode to loading it
19:47	AimHere	map works on maps, but it treats a map as a sequence of pair vectors
19:47	p_l	instead of doing 0 iconst (two codes)
19:48	gtrak	wingy: you can try reduce-kv as well
19:48	ddima	p_l: its not that i dont get how that works or why, it still seemed pretty unusual to put that into an own opcode, even for the sake of saving one byte. but thats just my impression.
19:49	hyPiRion	,(.size (Arrays/asList (into-array [1 2 3])))
19:49	clojurebot	3
19:49	ddima	so thats why i actually thought that a spec as above would explicitly mention that arguments are pushed to stack in order and blabla, because there might be some other funny ways the jvm does it, even if its a stack machine. doesnt prevent funny optimizations ;)
19:49	wingy	so here is the deal . i need a fn that checks each key/value pair in a map .. the value will be converted depending on what key it is .. so the fn has to take a key/value pair
19:50	wingy	it seems that the map fn just takes one value from the sequence at a time
19:50	wingy	and it should return a formatted map structure
19:51	AimHere	,(let [foo {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] (zipmap (keys foo) (map inc (vals foo))))
19:51	clojurebot	{:b 3, :c 4, :a 2}
19:52	AimHere	^ that's one suggestion, though I'm faintly worried that keys ... and vals .. might not pull their values out in the same order
19:52	gfredericks	they do
19:52	gtrak	,(reduce-kv (fn [acc k v] (assoc acc k (inc v))) {} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0})
19:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: reduce-kv in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:52	gtrak	&(reduce-kv (fn [acc k v] (assoc acc k (inc v))) {} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0})
19:52	lazybot	⇒ {9 1, 7 9, 5 7, 3 5, 1 3}
19:52	wingy	ah you misunderstood .. let me give you an example
19:53	bosie	anybody can give me pointers as to how i can connect "lein midje" to a nailgun server?
19:53	gtrak	equivalent to: ##(reduce (fn [acc [k v]] (assoc acc k (inc v))) {} {1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0})
19:53	lazybot	⇒ {9 1, 7 9, 5 7, 3 5, 1 3}
19:53	gfredericks	AimHere: I think that's undocumented though :/
19:53	AimHere	,(into {} (map #(if (even? %1) (inc %2)) {1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 7 8})
19:53	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:53	AimHere	,(into {} (map #(if (even? %1) (inc %2)) {1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 7 8}))
19:53	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval547$fn>
19:53	ddima	wingy: I think you'd just want something like (map (fn [a b] ...) (seq youdict))
19:53	AimHere	,(into {} (map #(if (even? (first %)) (inc (second %))) {1 2 2 3 3 4 5 6 7 8}))
19:53	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
19:53	AimHere	Bah
19:54	wingy	ddima: yeah but map takes only one value from the seq
19:54	hyPiRion	/msg clojurebot guys
19:54	ddima	wingy: seq will give you a seq of kv 'tuples', which you can use to do your checks
19:54	wingy	ddima: i c
19:54	ddima	, (map (fn [[a b]] [b a]) (seq kv))
19:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: kv in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:54	gtrak	ddima: you don't need seq... map does the same
19:54	ddima	err, mom
19:54	gtrak	,(map identity {1 2 3 4 5 6})
19:54	clojurebot	([1 2] [3 4] [5 6])
19:55	hyPiRion	,(map class {1 2})
19:55	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.MapEntry)
19:55	hyPiRion	et voila.
19:55	ddima	,(map (fn [[a b]] [b a]) (seq {:a "a" :b "b"}))
19:55	clojurebot	(["a" :a] ["b" :b])
19:55	ddima	wingy: should do, right?
19:55	hyPiRion	but reduce-kv is potentially faster, so may use that one.
19:55	ddima	gtrak: oh, really? hm :)
19:55	hyPiRion	and it's well, as far as I know what you want.
19:56	ddima	yep. true
19:56	ddima	nevermind. beers and stuff.
19:56	gtrak	more beer! onwards.
19:56	mehwork	why does this give me clojure.set not found: (clojure.set/union #{:foo} #{bar})
19:57	gfredericks	did you require clojure.set yet?
19:57	mehwork	no, the book didn't tell me too ah
19:57	AimHere	Which book?
19:57	gfredericks	burn it!
19:57	mehwork	"seven languages in seven weeks"
19:57	mehwork	it's a good book overall
19:57	wingy	ddima: excellent..but how do i convert the sequence with key/value pairs back to a map?
19:57	gfredericks	wingy: (into {} ...)
19:58	wingy	wiii
19:58	wingy	thx all
19:58	AimHere	mehwork, shame. I was rather hoping to chastise the author in here, since most of the writers of Clojure-specific books show up in here at some point
19:59	gfredericks	shame on all of you clojure-specific-book-writers
19:59	technomancy	in 1.2 you didn't have to require clojure.set
19:59	gfredericks	technomancy: it was used somewhere in core?
19:59	technomancy	gfredericks: not sure if it was that or convenience
20:00	mehwork	AimHere: well maybe they thought that clojure.set would be auto loaded, as stackoverflow is saying anyway
20:00	mehwork	it's not for me in the lein repl in ubuntu
20:00	ddima	wingy: or (apply hash-map [[:key val] [:key val]]) if you feel funny ;)
20:00	arohner	right, in 1.3 or so, clojure.set stopped being autoloaded
20:01	technomancy	all the breaking changes, all the time
20:01	gfredericks	ddima: I'd bet two quarters that doesn't work
20:01	gfredericks	,(let [val 42] (apply hash-map [[:key val] [:key val]]))
20:01	clojurebot	{[:key 42] [:key 42]}
20:01	ddima	damn, true again
20:01	ddima	why dont i check first
20:01	ddima	sorry, retreating to the batcave
20:02	ddima	nesting too deep!
20:03	wingy	ddima: both gave the same value: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7684
20:03	wingy	i didn't have to use seq
20:03	ddima	wingy: yes, thats what somebody noted before
20:03	wingy	weird
20:03	ddima	I was wrong, he was right. its not needed.
20:03	wingy	maybe because of the destructuring clause?
20:04	wingy	or maybe not
20:04	hyPiRion	to the source
20:04	hyPiRion	&(source map)
20:04	lazybot	⇒ Source not found nil
20:04	hyPiRion	$source map
20:04	lazybot	map is http://is.gd/47nOpc
20:05	hyPiRion	yeah, it uses seq on its arguments
20:05	ddima	wingy: i think its more because thats the way maps are seq'ed ;)
20:06	mehwork	it's kinda weird how def creates a variable
20:06	technomancy	you mean a var?
20:07	mehwork	there's a diff?
20:07	ddima	gfredericks: but on a serious note, was into really the only way to build a dict from nested 'tuples'? could have sworn there either was a function or similar. thats why i thought that was an apply thing.
20:07	ddima	just curious.
20:07	technomancy	clojure doesn't have variables
20:07	mehwork	maybe you should chastize the author of this book then :>
20:07	AimHere	merely 'vars'
20:08	gfredericks	technomancy: what does variable mean such that clojure doesn't have them?
20:08	technomancy	gfredericks: locals that change
20:08	gfredericks	technomancy: okay. clojure doesn't have variables.
20:09	AimHere	doesn't that make 'global variables' an oxymoron?
20:09	gfredericks	ddima: I don't know of an easier way. the hash-map function expects pairs of arguments, so you could #(apply hash-map (apply concat [[:foo 3] [:bar "MRHRAH"] [:baz "Lots of money"]]))
20:09	technomancy	AimHere: depends on the language. usually globals are a completely different mechanism that kind of look like locals if you aren't paying attention.
20:10	gfredericks	while everybody else was busy demonizing global variables clojure kept the globals and just eliminated the locals.
20:10	technomancy	anyway, a var isn't what most languages call global variables either; it's a storage location
20:10	ddima	gfredericks: uh, i was pretty close to the real deal, just lacking the concat ;)
20:10	ddima	ok, then i just dreamed something up i guess.
20:11	mehwork	so a var is more like an immutable pointer?
20:11	gfredericks	ddima: whoops I forgot to add the extra # so lazybot would eval it
20:11	gfredericks	mehwork: yes except mutable
20:11	technomancy	mehwork: you can change vars, but unless you're crazy you only do it during development time
20:12	mehwork	will it dump core
20:12	technomancy	no, it'll just make your colleagues hate you
20:12	mehwork	too late
20:13	gfredericks	apparently it is also okay to wrap vars at compile-time.
20:13	technomancy	well yeah you can push thread-local bindings
20:13	gfredericks	no I mean alter-var-root
20:14	technomancy	don't do that
20:14	technomancy	I mean it's OK for dev tools
20:14	brehaut	technomancy means its ok for his code, but not yours.
20:14	brehaut	talk about your double standards
20:15	brehaut	:P
20:15	technomancy	brehaut: I only write dev tools!
20:15	technomancy	so I'm in the clear =D
20:15	brehaut	:)
20:15	gfredericks	https://github.com/clojure/core.contracts/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/contracts.clj#L65
20:15	joevandyk	is there anything like vcr for clojure? https://www.relishapp.com/vcr/vcr/docs
20:15	ddima	btw, has anybody had fun with decompiling clojure just to see what happens?
20:15	gfredericks	joevandyk: I started one
20:15	gfredericks	and so did some other guy.
20:15	gfredericks	I don't know which one is better.
20:15	gfredericks	mine is pretty minimal
20:15	joevandyk	i sometimes have to work closely with a lot of 3rd party http services and would like to test against their responses
20:16	technomancy	gfredericks: blurgh
20:16	technomancy	do not want
20:16	gfredericks	technomancy: vcr or alter-var-root?
20:16	technomancy	gfredericks: this crazy provide function
20:16	joevandyk	technomancy: do you guys still have the seattle clojure meetups?
20:16	technomancy	joevandyk: yeah totally
20:16	technomancy	first thursday of the month
20:16	joevandyk	i should stop by. getting sick of ruby
20:17	gfredericks	technomancy: I also added a var-reddefer in some code recently for wrapping a function with logging; would you use a defn-macro or something?
20:17	wingy	how do i convert a string into a double?
20:17	wingy	"12.12" -> 12.12
20:17	gfredericks	Double/parseDouble
20:17	gfredericks	or read-string if you want to be sloppy
20:17	gfredericks	it's shorter!
20:17	wingy	maybe the former is better for security?
20:17	gfredericks	yeps
20:17	wingy	and you cannot execute any code
20:17	wingy	:)
20:17	AimHere	The latter is a proper clojure function
20:17	joevandyk	gfredericks: is your clojure vcd code somewhere?
20:18	gfredericks	$google fredericksgary vcr-clj
20:18	technomancy	gfredericks: hmmm... that might be permissible because it doesn't change the behaviour
20:18	lazybot	[fredericksgary/vcr-clj · GitHub] https://github.com/fredericksgary/vcr-clj
20:18	gfredericks	technomancy: yeah I always had the impression that orthogonal concerns _might_ be justifiable
20:18	gfredericks	never business stuff
20:18	technomancy	gfredericks: I wonder what tools.trace does
20:18	ddima	yeah, read string will deceive you horribly in situations with 0 prefixed number etc.pp - great fun ;)
20:19	ddima	"works till 7, hmmm. close enough!"
20:19	joevandyk	the thing i have in mind is retrieving tracking numbers against a bunch of different shipping services (dhl, upsmi, ups, sups, fedex, etc) and have a unified api to figure if they have shipped, the best tracking url, etc
20:19	technomancy	gfredericks: in any case I think a blanket "never use alter-var-root" is a good idea because the people who are capable of understanding when it's a good idea are generally confident enough to know when to ignore what they hear on IRC =)
20:19	ddima	thought, deception is the wrong word. it actually does what its supposed to do.
20:20	turbofail	is there some way to configure the size of the thread pool used to run futures?
20:20	turbofail	it seems to be maxing out at 30
20:20	gfredericks	technomancy: never use clojure
20:21	technomancy	gfredericks: brb porting lein to clojurescript
20:21	mehwork	never use use
20:21	brehaut	never use :use
20:21	brehaut	use is sometimes useful
20:21	brehaut	(at the repl)
20:22	gfredericks	technomancy: I feel like you just defended a big pile of parenting techniques :)
20:23	technomancy	turbofail: I think there's an open issue for that but no patch yet
20:23	CoverSlide	ok so don't use (ns (:use and don't use (use ok so what do i use?
20:23	turbofail	ah
20:24	brehaut	CoverSlide: (:require ns.foo :refer [baz bop])
20:24	CoverSlide	hmm
20:24	ddima	frighteningly funny channel, actually.
20:25	gfredericks	(:require [ns.foo :as foo])
20:25	mehwork	lol
20:25	brehaut	gfredericks: that too
20:25	gfredericks	brehaut: (:require [jayq.core :as $ :refer [$]])
20:26	brehaut	gfredericks: thats all great except for the use of jquery
20:26	gfredericks	Jayq Weary?
20:27	akhudek	I expected deftype to support =
20:27	gfredericks	I think deftype is intentionally pretty bare
20:28	technomancy	akhudek: deftype supports mutability, and equality can't be meaningfully defined on mutable objects
20:28	gfredericks	that's a much gooder explanation
20:28	brehaut	gfredericks: jquery, like all big arse-libraries (xkcd'd for you already), is a giant collection of average implementations of everything
20:28	joevandyk	what's the best way of interfacing with postgresql? while using all the nice datatypes, like ranges, intervals, json, etc?
20:29	akhudek	That makes sense. Do I need to implement hashcode too? These types are in fact immutable.
20:29	technomancy	joevandyk: there's not a great story right now. you have low-level access through clojure.java.jdbc and high-level access with some baked in bad assumptions with korma. pick the lesser of two evils.
20:30	seangrove	brehaut: That's a slightly strange stance given the scope of the google closure library
20:30	joevandyk	technomancy: bad assumptions?
20:31	brehaut	seangrove: who said i like google closure either :P
20:31	seangrove	You did
20:31	seangrove	All throughout the internet
20:31	brehaut	seangrove: i never!
20:31	brehaut	lol
20:32	seangrove	But, it is pretty closely tied to cljs, for better or worse
20:32	seangrove	At least for now, I suppose
20:32	brehaut	indeed
20:32	ddima	is there a good writeup on 'gc pressure' exercised by clojure though the pretty large number of function objects etc.pp? just curious.
20:32	technomancy	joevandyk: it doesn't allow for you to control the scope of your DB connections and IIRC messes up laziness for cursor queries among a few other things I can't remember right now
20:32	technomancy	I don't use it much, but it comes up every so often in the channel
20:32	brehaut	seangrove: although closure can optimize out the usage of a lot of it if you dont actually use it
20:32	brehaut	(except where clojurescript.core doe)
20:33	brehaut	seangrove: i don't actually clojurescript at the present time anyhow
20:33	seangrove	brehaut: Yeah, but that's really possible with just the compiler
20:33	seangrove	I could see a future where cljs-in-cljs eventually leads to less of a reliance on the closure library and more on pure cljs libraries
20:34	gfredericks	as soon as somebody implements format
20:34	seangrove	CL's format?
20:34	gfredericks	clojure.core/format
20:34	gfredericks	or maybe cljs.core/format in this case
20:34	seangrove	bah, I was excited to see CL's format
20:35	seangrove	One of the most baffling and powerful things I've ever used
20:42	hyPiRion	(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format]])
20:42	hyPiRion	,(require '[clojure.pprint :refer [cl-format]])
20:42	clojurebot	nil
20:42	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~{~A~^, ~}" [1 2 3 4]) ; 'tis powerful
20:42	clojurebot	1, 2, 3, 4
20:43	technomancy	does our version have roman numeral support?
20:43	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~{~R~^, ~}" [1 2 3 400]) ; 'tis powerful
20:43	clojurebot	one, two, three, four hundred
20:43	technomancy	geez
20:43	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~{~:R~^, ~}" [1 2 3 400]) ; 'tis powerful
20:43	clojurebot	first, second, third, four hundredth
20:43	ddima	nice
20:43	seangrove	hahaha
20:43	hyPiRion	I think it has everything cl's format has, except function calls.
20:43	seangrove	technomancy: Curious to see the discussion that said it should ship with clojure...?
20:44	brehaut	next thing you know, well have brainfuck shipping as standard
20:44	brehaut	and someone will have a brainfuck / cl-format polyglot
20:44	technomancy	seangrove: I think it snuck in as part of pprint
20:44	technomancy	kinda like how clojure.walk snuck in as part of clojure.test
20:44	hyPiRion	technomancy: You forgot the roman numbers.
20:44	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~{~@R~^, ~}" [1 2 3 400]) ; 'tis powerful
20:44	clojurebot	I, II, III, CD
20:45	hyPiRion	In case anyone needs it.
20:45	technomancy	[17:35] <technomancy> does our version have roman numeral support?
20:45	technomancy	=){
20:45	hyPiRion	Oh, I read that as written numeral support
20:45	hyPiRion	sorry
20:46	seangrove	Iterating over vectors, maps, etc. is pretty cool though
20:46	technomancy	heh; it's cool
20:46	gfredericks	hyPiRion: man that'd be cool if it could write numerals as well
20:46	seangrove	I've only used it a handful of times and haven't missed it terribly when in languages that didn't have cl-format, but I do like it overall
20:46	cark	,(cl-format true "file~p" 1)
20:46	clojurebot	file
20:46	cark	,(cl-format true "file~p" 10)
20:46	clojurebot	files
20:46	cark	darn
20:46	cark	it's all in there
20:47	seangrove	,(cl-format true "ox~p" 10)
20:47	clojurebot	oxs
20:47	cark	CL's plural thingie isn't that good either =)
20:47	seangrove	Yeah, I ported the rails inflection system to CL as an early project, was fun
20:47	brehaut	please tell me its not locale aware
20:47	cark	brehaut: haha that would be awesome
20:47	hyPiRion	cark: it's good if you know the plural form
20:48	seangrove	I posted it to hn and got a good response, and some people asked that I port a perl system over, wonder if I can find it...
20:49	seangrove	Oh, wow, my project was forked and improved on, had no idea
20:50	cark	,(cl-format true "~{~#[~;~a~;~a and ~a~:;~@{~a~#[~;, and ~:;, ~]~}~]~}" [1 2 3 400])
20:50	clojurebot	1, 2, 3, and 400
20:50	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~r ox~:*~[en~;~:;en~]" 10)
20:50	clojurebot	ten oxen
20:50	hyPiRion	,(cl-format true "~r ox~:*~[en~;~:;en~]" 1)
20:50	clojurebot	one ox
20:50	cark	hyPiRion: nice one =)
20:51	cark	now you pass the resource file to your translators =)
20:52	seangrove	Ah, yes, here it is: http://search.cpan.org/~dconway/Lingua-EN-Inflect-1.895/lib/Lingua/EN/Inflect.pm
20:53	seangrove	I ported rails' inflector as a learner-project, and the top comment included "Damian Conway (Lingua::EN::Inflect's author) also wrote a paper about algorithmic English pluralization that actually takes a linguistic approach to all of this"
20:54	seangrove	"Oh, I see you have a toy project - have you considered going through all of the academic research and writing a professional-grade system instead?"
20:54	cark	we need to bindle that with clojure !
20:54	cark	bundle*
20:56	n_b	annnnd one more paper gets added to the list
20:56	seangrove	Reading list, or burn list?
20:56	n_b	Reading
20:57	n_b	English Lit major, so anything that has CS<->Degree crossover piques my interest
20:57	seangrove	Ah, very cool
20:57	seangrove	You could do some good in the world
20:57	seangrove	Things like Lingua-EN do actually help quite a bit
20:58	seangrove	Even if a simple table of regexes gets you ~80% of the way there
20:58	n_b	I started to dissect the Rails inflector once when I had less experience, wouldn't mind giving it another go
20:59	seangrove	It's pretty tiny, super easy
20:59	n_b	Which leads to all sorts of hilarious outcomes in Rails projects for those unaware of its corner cases
21:00	seangrove	Here's (I believe) a full recreation in CL: http://trapm.posterous.com/vana-inflector-an-english-inflector-in-common
21:03	n_b	That is indeed simpler than I remember
21:03	seangrove	Looking at it, I don't think it handles camelCase things, which I believe the rails inflector also does
21:03	n_b	Experience counts for a lot
21:03	seangrove	So maybe it's not actually a full port. Owell.
21:05	n_b	and utf-8? Not sure of the status of that in CL
21:06	mattmoss	If I'm wrapping a (proprietary) java lib with pre-built classes (no src avail), I can't extend-protocol IPersistentMap to it, can I?
21:06	mattmoss	That is, I know I can't do it directly... since IPersistentMap isn't a protocol. Wondering if there are workarounds...
21:09	gfredericks	line repple
21:11	seangrove	heh, what is "The new alternative to `lein repl`"
21:11	n_b	Doesn't everything hook into lein repl?
21:11	seangrove	line repple => lein repl
21:11	craigbro	lime apple
21:12	n_b	ahh
21:13	gfredericks	how to install line again
21:13	gfredericks	should I use line again too or line again won?
21:14	seangrove	gfredericks: that's really technomancy's fault for choosing an impossible to spell name
21:14	brehaut	SERD ERPTGERT ERNSTERL LERNERGERN
21:15	hyPiRion	lien rpel is usually what I manage to type.
21:16	seangrove	heh, lein repel!
21:16	seangrove	To be used when you find foreign jars in your project
21:16	n_b	echo 'alias lr="lein repl"'>>~/.profile
21:16	lazybot	'alias lr="lein repl"'>>~/.profile
21:16	hyPiRion	echo $HOME
21:16	lazybot	$HOME
21:16	hyPiRion	meh.
21:16	gfredericks	echo echo echo
21:16	lazybot	echo echo
21:16	gfredericks	,(println "echo echo")
21:16	clojurebot	echo echo
21:16	lazybot	echo
21:16	hyPiRion	you beat me.
21:17	gfredericks	clojurebot: echo is foxtrot
21:17	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
21:36	hyPiRion	,(println "echo ,(println echo echo)")
21:36	clojurebot	echo ,(println echo echo)
21:36	lazybot	,(println echo echo)
21:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: echo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:36	nsxt	what's the name of the editor that LightTable builds on?
21:36	brehaut	codemirror
21:36	nsxt	brehaut: Thanks!
21:37	hyPiRion	,(println "echo ,(println \"echo foo\")")
21:37	clojurebot	echo ,(println "echo foo")
21:37	lazybot	,(println "echo foo")
21:37	clojurebot	echo foo
21:37	lazybot	foo
21:37	hyPiRion	woo, two levels
21:37	hyPiRion	the next step is obviously to make an iterating quine out of this.
21:39	seangrove	Ugh, just read through a thread on comp.lang.lisp, incredibly painful to read. So much ego and snark.
21:40	gfredericks	wait wait
21:40	gfredericks	you actually can make a bot trampoline out of that can't you
21:41	hyPiRion	&((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
21:41	lazybot	⇒ ((fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x))) (quote (fn [x] (list x (list (quote quote) x)))))
21:41	hyPiRion	sure thing.
21:41	hyPiRion	Just need a bit of massage
21:41	gfredericks	well you need it to alternate forms
21:42	hyPiRion	yeah
21:42	gfredericks	well sorta
21:42	gfredericks	lazybot won't do any evaling I guess
21:42	gfredericks	so it's not a twine
22:06	hyPiRion	gfredericks: Dangit, it's actually working too.
22:22	wingy	how can i convert a "123.0" to Long?
22:23	wingy	Long/parseLong says it's bad input
22:24	hyPiRion	Parse it to a double first, then cast it to a long
22:25	hyPiRion	,(long (Double/parseDouble "123.0"))
22:25	clojurebot	123
22:25	bbloom	hyPiRion: that's probably not a great idea, since long and double don't have the same domain
22:25	bbloom	wingy: just split at . and parse the first part
22:25	bbloom	assuming you don't mind truncating instead of rounding
22:25	wingy	bbloom: good idea
22:26	brehaut	bbloom: can you explain 'domain' in that context?
22:26	hyPiRion	a long can represent something a double cannot, and vice versa.
22:26	bbloom	domain, as in function domain, range, co-domain, etc
22:27	brehaut	right
22:30	hyPiRion	,(let [a [[36 116 105 109 [101 114 32 49 [54 58 48 58 [48 32 44 40 [108 101 116 32 [91 119 104 97 [116 39 115 32 [39 116 104 105 [115 63 32 97 32]]]]]]]]] "] (println (apply str (apply str (map char (flatten (a 0)))) a (a 1))))"]] (println (apply str (apply str (map char (flatten (a 0)))) a (a 1))))
22:30	clojurebot	$timer 16:0:0 ,(let [what's 'this? a [[36 116 105 109 [101 114 32 49 [54 58 48 58 [48 32 44 40 [108 101 116 32 [91 119 104 97 [116 39 115 32 [39 116 104 105 [115 63 32 97 32]]]]]]]]] "] (println (apply str (apply str (map char (flatten (a 0)))) a (a 1))))"]] (println (apply str (apply str (map char (flatten (a 0)))) a (a 1))))
22:30	lazybot	Timer added.
22:37	erewhon	if you're wanting to convert it to a long, why does the input have .0?
22:38	amalloy	hah, well done hyPiRion. many have tried for the multi-bot quine, and you've finally found a clever hack involving a spot where lazybot doesn't prepend his output
22:38	amalloy	Raynes: ^
22:41	Raynes	Pretty sure I have a list of people to ignore somewhere that is broken. I'll just have to fix it and add clojurebot.
22:42	Raynes	Then your evil plans will be foiled once and for all.
22:44	Raynes	hyPiRion: Good work.
22:44	Raynes	I have a fresh cookie that I'll mail to you promptly, sir.
22:50	hyPiRion	Raynes: To be fair, if I were evil, I would just do echo instead. $timer removes colons, so I had to use that vector-with-ints hack which isn't needed for echo.
22:51	Raynes	hyPiRion: Echo?
22:51	Raynes	echo hi
22:51	lazybot	hi
22:51	Raynes	That?
22:51	clojurebot	that is dumb
22:51	Raynes	It is, I agree.
22:51	hyPiRion	yeah
22:52	Raynes	Well, if you did that everybody would probably have hated you.
22:52	Raynes	:p
22:52	hyPiRion	exactly, heh.
22:52	Raynes	But yeah, that's why I had the user blacklist thingy. It used to ignore clojurebot but somewhere along the line I broke it.
22:53	hyPiRion	hm, better fix it before i make them hold a conversation through timers and Thread/sleeps
22:53	gfredericks	~botstack
22:53	clojurebot	Pardon?
22:53	Raynes	hyPiRion: Feel powerful, don't you?
22:54	Raynes	hyPiRion: How would you feel if I forced you to talk to gfredericks all day like a broken record?
22:54	Raynes	:p
22:55	hyPiRion	Raynes: :(
22:55	gfredericks	&((apply comp (repeat 10000 identity)) 42)
22:55	lazybot	⇒ 42
22:55	gfredericks	I wonder how that computation feels
22:57	hyPiRion	,(recur)
22:57	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
22:57	hyPiRion	That is also painful. Poor bots.
23:00	gfredericks	,(recur 5)
23:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 0 args, got: 1, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:00	hyPiRion	,@(promise)
23:01	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
23:03	ldh	\tproject
23:03	ldh	oops
23:04	ldh	if i i'm in a repl ("lein repl") and i change a source file, why wouldn't (require … :reload) pick up the change? is there something else i'm missing? i swear this used to work...
23:07	brehaut	ldh: it should do
23:08	brehaut	ldh: there are some gotchas though, around things like multimethods and anything with defonce semantics
23:08	brehaut	(not new gotchas however)
23:13	ldh	brehaut: i'm tweaking the implementation of a protocol in a defrecord. i do have a couple of instances of defonce data being passed around, maybe that's related. thanks for the tip