#clojure – 2012-12-06

2012-12-06

00:07	devth	no way to partially apply a fn's args in any order but left-to-right without wrapping it in your own fn, correct?
00:10	Raynes	devth: Sounds like you want a flip function. I think useful might have one.
00:10	devth	Raynes: cool, i'll take a look.
00:11	Raynes	I might be wrong.
00:11	Raynes	We at least considered putting it in there.
00:11	devth	no luck with ack.
00:11	devth	but yeah, i could see a lib doing this. was curious I was missing anything in core.
00:12	Raynes	devth: (defn flip [f] #(apply f (reverse %&)))
00:12	Raynes	That's a simple version. amalloy_ has a complex version that does shit I don't even understand.
00:13	devth	nice. so that's what %& is for
00:13	jonasen	I'm trying to wrap my head around core.logic's constrained logic vars, but I can't get even the simplest constraint to work: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7336
00:13	jonasen	I'm probably doing something silly..
00:47	ohpauleez	tpope: Thanks looking into the issues - much appreciated
01:02	elephantTechno	yo. I'm extremely new to clojure and I have a problem : using lein to compile then run a program is extremely slow (several seconds) which is inappropriate for someone who has a very vague notion of clojure's syntax. How can I 1) run the main function of a program using the REPL 2) running a specific function using the REPL ? Teach me how to use the REPL ! thanks.
01:11	nightfly_	Say your projects is "cows" and you're using the lein app templete to run main would just me (cows.core/-main)
01:12	nightfly_	Any arbitary function can be called just how you would in your code
01:24	technomancy	elephantTechno: if you don't have editor integration figured out yet it's easy enough to just paste into the repl
01:24	technomancy	but eventually you'll want to have it set up so you can send stuff straight from your editor with a single command
01:32	elephantTechno	thank you techomancy. I'm using sublime text (again I'm quite new to it, i previously used text mate). But for now i'll just use the repl from a separate terminal.
03:12	Raynes	ibdknox: Why didn't you put my tomorrow night theme in there? It's the only theme I care to use.
03:27	josteink	elephantTechno: you may want to look into "drip"
03:27	josteink	elephantTechno: unless you are running windows, because AFAIK drip does not work on windows ;)
03:27	josteink	https://github.com/flatland/drip
04:34	dsevilla	guys, do you know of any list of core.logic resources?
04:34	dsevilla	from documentation to learning projects to projects that just use it
04:34	dsevilla	presentations, videos, etc.
04:40	fredyr	dsevilla: http://blip.tv/clojure/dan-friedman-and-william-byrd-minikanren-5936333
04:40	fredyr	sorry, missed that ur looking for a list of resources
04:43	dsevilla	fredyr: thanks, I think there's no such compilation, so maybe I'll start it
04:44	dsevilla	I'm very interested in it. I think core.logic is not used as much as it could be used for many things
04:44	fredyr	sure thats a good idea
04:45	fredyr	the resources i keep seeing is reasoned schemer and will byrds thesis
04:46	dsevilla	fredyr: yes, this is where to start, I think, but there are some good presentations too, and some applications of it that worth taking a look at
04:46	dsevilla	for instance, there's an implementation of the 99 logic problems in core.logic
04:46	fredyr	oh
04:47	fredyr	let me know when you've compiled the links that you've got so far
04:47	dsevilla	fredyr: OK :)
04:48	dsevilla	fredyr: damn I cannot find the 99 problems in core.logic, but I have them somewhere
04:48	dsevilla	that's why the compilation :)
04:49	fredyr	:D
04:53	Raynes	I got 99 problems but core.logic ain't one.
04:59	dsevilla	Raynes: hahaha, you know, it was 99 logic problems IN core.logic :)
06:21	dsevilla	tdfjadlfjasdfa
06:22	Raynes	ihuhgb
06:22	dsevilla	ups, sorry
06:22	dsevilla	my gnome-shell went nuts
06:22	Raynes	:p
06:34	berdario	Hello, does someone use ritz-nrepl here?
06:59	berdario	gosh, I'm starting to get really discouraged right now
06:59	llasram	berdario: I know people do use it. hugod himself is on here frequently
06:59	berdario	aside from my issue, there's this one: https://github.com/pallet/ritz/issues/58 and I can't find documentation on the lein plugin :/
07:00	berdario	llasram: what do you use for debugging? (I don't really care about ritz-nrepl, I just want something that worksa)
07:00	llasram	I'm not sure where you are in the world, but it's before 7am EST and 4am PST, which means a big chunk of Clojure users are asleep right now
07:00	berdario	I'm UTC+1
07:01	cemerick	It's interesting that Europe generally isn't on irc.
07:01	cemerick	Here, anyway.
07:01	cemerick	Interesting that that fellow says that nrepl.el is "unusable".
07:01	llasram	There are people from Europe, but things do seem most active during EST-PST core hours
07:01	cemerick	American slackers.
07:01	berdario	eh, I was awake until 3.30 UTC, btw... but I got tired, and I hoped that I would find someone else now :)
07:02	berdario	cemerick: what do you use for debugging?
07:02	cemerick	berdario: I do all my Clojure-ing in Eclipse + Counterclockwise.
07:02	berdario	cemerick: no CLI, then?
07:02	cshell	cemerick: How's the debugging support in that?
07:03	llasram	berdario: And I use Emacs but I have to confess I've never been a big fan of debuggers for managed languages. Just never gotten it into my workflow
07:03	cemerick	berdario: You mean, a REPL in the shell? Hardly ever.
07:03	cshell	cemerick: Do you use the REPL in CCW?
07:03	cemerick	I use lein from the command line, obviously; though Laurent is working on making that less necessary.
07:03	cemerick	cshell: ccw benefits from the eclipse debugger, which is quite good
07:04	cemerick	cshell: I built the REPL in ccw. ;-)
07:04	berdario	llasram: I use emacs as well, can I ask you what is the current debugger that you have installed?
07:04	berdario	(emacs 24 btw)
07:04	cshell	cemerick: Awesome, I'm just finishing up the lein 2 dependency management integration into the IDEA leiningen plugin
07:04	llasram	berdario: For Clojure? Mental reflection and (prn) calls
07:05	cemerick	Ah-ha! Just last night, talios was asking about the status of La Clojure.
07:05	cshell	cemerick: I eventually want to get the clojure support to be as good as the java support in IDEA
07:05	cemerick	It's seemed dead on and off for a while.
07:05	berdario	llasram: is that a joke answer?
07:05	cshell	cemerick: yeah, those guys are very sporadic - I am going to start contributing to it though after I get the leiningen support complete
07:06	berdario	I mean, I can't find any "mental reflection" thing for clojure
07:06	cshell	berdario: I haven't used the IDEA debugger, but Relevance and cemerick support counter clockwise, so I'd give that a try first
07:07	berdario	you said that you're not a fan of debuggers, but yet... you said you "use emacs", hence I inferred that you had an emacs debugger installed (even if you seldom use it)
07:07	berdario	cshell: yes, but I'd prefer something minimal
07:07	llasram	berdario: Ohhh, I'm sorry for the confusion. I meant I use Emacs for Clojure development, but don't use a debugger
07:07	berdario	cshell: not for the sake of it, but just because I just want something to help me understand the code and step up and down the stack
07:08	berdario	llasram: ok, thanks anyhow :)
07:08	cshell	cshell: that's what the eclipse debugger should do - it should let you move up and down the stack
07:09	berdario	cshell: do you know somebody here who worked with the clojurescript sources? (I know I'll have to wait some hours for people to wake up, but still...)
07:09	cemerick	berdario: If you're aiming to use a debugger to aid your understanding of Clojure code, etc., I'd suggest that that's unlikely to be of much help.
07:10	berdario	cemerick: I have a static function in a clojure module/packages (sorry, my terminology is quite confused)... but apparently it's shipped in a different file
07:10	berdario	cemerick: how can I understand where it's coming from, without a debugger?
07:11	cemerick	you mean, you are trying to determine from where a Clojure namespace is being loaded?
07:12	berdario	I'm in the .clj file that defines this namespace, but it's requiring things from somewhere else, and I assume some of these things are compiled .jars
07:13	berdario	cemerick: so, yes... I'm trying to determine from where they're loaded
07:13	llasram	&((juxt :file :line) (meta #'require))
07:13	lazybot	⇒ ["clojure/core.clj" 5319]
07:13	cemerick	Right, there's that, and also:
07:13	cemerick	,(clojure.java.io/resource "clojure/core.clj")
07:13	clojurebot	nil
07:13	cemerick	oh jeez
07:14	cemerick	&(clojure.java.io/resource "clojure/core.clj")
07:14	lazybot	⇒ nil
07:14	llasram	Silly bots
07:14	llasram	Don't remember where they came from
07:14	cemerick	berdario: the bots have that blacklisted, but you can use a call like the above to determine where a particular file is being loaded from within the classpath
07:15	cshell	berdario: there are a lot of people that know cljs in here - if you search the clojure log file at http://clojure-log.n01se.net you can find particulars
07:16	Foxboron	cemerick, you one of the guys that wrote Clojure Programming?
07:17	cemerick	Foxboron: yes
07:18	Foxboron	cemerick, love the book ^^
07:19	cemerick	Foxboron: Glad you're enjoying it. :-) If you think it's worthwhile, please do leave your review @ http://amzn.to/clojurebook ;-)
07:20	Foxboron	I do miss small tasks or something along those lines, but thats rather a minor flaw in my opinion.
07:20	Foxboron	cemerick, will do when i have read through it all.
07:20	cemerick	small tasks?
07:21	berdario	llasram, cemerick thanks... clojure.java.io/resource seems to always return nil, but meta says that what I'm looking for is at line 277
07:21	cemerick	berdario: how are you calling `resource`?
07:22	cshell	Does anyone use Clojure as a Python/Ruby scripting replacement?
07:22	berdario	(clojure.java.io/resource "closure/-compile") or (clojure.java.io/resource "closure") or (clojure.java.io/resource "-compile")
07:22	cshell	or scripting replacement in general?
07:23	Foxboron	cemerick, like at the end of a chapter you add a little page with possible tasks to further understaing the chapter. Things to code etc.
07:23	berdario	btw, now I have the namespace and the line number... but still I have to find out what's the exact file
07:23	cemerick	berdario: resource needs a path, e.g. "clojure/core.clj" if you want to see where the clojure.core ns was loaded from, etc.
07:23	cemerick	It doesn't know anything about functions
07:23	cemerick	Foxboron: ah, homework :-)
07:23	berdario	cemerick: ah, I did (require '[cljs.closure :as closure])
07:24	cemerick	then, "cljs/closure.clj"
07:24	berdario	so, "closure" is no good, but "cljs/closure" is what I'm looking for
07:24	berdario	?
07:24	berdario	ok, thanks
07:24	cemerick	but, that's just over here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/closure.clj
07:24	berdario	(ah, I forgot the .clj)
07:24	berdario	cemerick: yes, I'm into closure.clj
07:24	berdario	but some things are missing
07:25	Foxboron	cemerick, yeah if you wanna call it that :)
07:25	berdario	ok, it's a jar file: clojurescript-0.0-1534.jar
07:26	berdario	afk: (I'll have a slice of pizza)
07:27	cshell	Is let considered imperative as it affects program state?
07:47	fredyr	cshell: no i wouldn't say it does
07:48	cshell	Does haskell have a let concept?
07:50	squidz	after Ive created an executable clojure script with lein uberjar, can anybody tell me how I can pipe from the linux shell?. My script takes a file and outputs a line. I want to read in a directory of files and spit the output into a single file.
07:50	berdario	ok, I realized that the .jar file wasn't really relevant (it was probably brought in by leiningen... but the contents are the exact same .clj files that I'm reading)
07:51	cemerick	squidz: just read from in
07:51	berdario	and that -compile is indeed in the same closure.clj... I assumed that the protocol was defined there, but the implementation was done in java
07:51	fredyr	cshell: i believe haskell does have a let construct yeah
07:51	squidz	cemerick: How? im not experienced in working with scripts in the shell
07:51	berdario	fredyr: is has bot a "let" and a "where"
07:52	berdario	s/is has bot/it has both/
07:52	cshell	fredyr: Interesting, it(wikipedia) says imperative programming allows for mutation of programming state and that in FP there is no manipulation of state (in theory i realize) but rather a chaining of functions together
07:52	squidz	my script works fine, it is just running the function on multiple files and outputting their results into a new single file
07:53	ambrosebs	A Practical Optional Type System for Clojure - Final version https://github.com/downloads/frenchy64/papers/ambrose-honours.pdf
07:53	cshell	it seems when I use let i'm affecting the state of the program as I'm affecting what's in scope
07:53	fredyr	it's really not the issue of program state
07:54	fredyr	but mutating between states
07:54	fredyr	let is creating a local binding in your lexical scope
07:54	clojurebot	c'est bon!
07:54	fredyr	that binding never mutates in any way
07:55	cshell	ah, okay, thanks fredyr :)
07:55	fredyr	np
07:55	fredyr	i'd recommend you to look into some resources about functional programming
07:55	cemerick	ambrosebs: Congratulations! :-D
07:56	ambrosebs	cemerick: woo!
07:56	squidz	cemerick: do you know what i mean?
07:57	cemerick	squidz: not particularly? Your script has a -main, you have access to the command-line args. If you want to read from stdin, in is what you want.
07:58	cemerick	ambrosebs: No news yet on moves, etc? We're all waiting to see you more regularly. ;-)
07:59	squidz	cemerick: yes, i have no problem running my script in the command line with one argument my problem is more bash related. I'm not sure how to do something like a map in bash where i apply my clojure script to a list of files in bash
08:00	cemerick	Ah. Don't ask me about bash. :-)
08:01	ambrosebs	cemerick: I will finish my honours degree around June.
08:01	ambrosebs	And hopefully publish at least one paper by then
08:01	ambrosebs	That much is certain :P
08:15	berdario	squidz: have you solved it yet? I think it may be better to do it from clojure side... but maybe, what you want can simply be accomplished by "ls \| xargs -n1 yourcljapp > outputfile"
08:16	squidz	berdario: I havent solved it yet let me try your option out
08:19	squidz	berdario: its running, ill tell you if it worked as soon as its done
08:23	squidz	hm still running, i think it might be stuck
08:24	squidz	alright, i may just do it in clojure. I though doing it in the shell would be easier
08:33	berdario	squidz: uhm, it should work though... have you tried on a subset of the files?
08:34	berdario	ls foo* \| xargs -n1 app
08:34	lazybot	dev lib media mnt proc srv tmp var
08:35	berdario	but if it's launching a new clojure for each file, I guess that may partly explain the slowness of it
08:39	squidz	berdario: it's okay, i may have been using the wrong approach, I have to rethink what i'm doing. I'm not sure I even need to run my clojure programm multiple times then
08:57	echo-area	Is there simpler ways to use a dynamically bound value inside an anonymous function, besides finding it via `get-thread-bindings'?
08:58	echo-area	*a simpler way
08:58	llasram	echo-area: As in, have the function preserve the bindings active at the time it is defined, vs use the bindings active when called?
08:59	echo-area	llasram: I want to use the dynamic value.
08:59	echo-area	How to evaluate something here?
08:59	echo-area	How to invoke clojurebot?
08:59	llasram	&(println "example")
08:59	lazybot	⇒ example nil
09:00	echo-area	Oh, thanks
09:00	echo-area	&(do (def v 7) (binding [v 7] (map (fn [x] (list* v [x])) [v])))
09:00	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! pop-thread-bindings is bad!
09:00	echo-area	Hmm
09:00	echo-area	&(def ^:dynamic v 7)
09:00	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
09:01	llasram	Heh, yeah. Sandbox
09:01	Raptum	&(ns test.foo) (def bar "baz")
09:01	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Compiler is bad!
09:02	echo-area	You see, the result of the above binding form is ((nil 7))
09:02	llasram	So the issue is that you want to get the bound value of v, but seq laziness means that by the time your fn is run, you may be back outside of the lexical scope of the `binding` call?
09:02	echo-area	Yes
09:02	echo-area	Oh I see
09:02	Raptum	&(let [foo "bar"] (print foo))
09:02	lazybot	⇒ barnil
09:02	Raptum	ah ok good
09:02	echo-area	llasram: Thank for the remind
09:02	llasram	Oh, np :-)
09:02	echo-area	I see why
09:03	llasram	If you want to let the seq stay lazy and not eval inside the `binding`
09:03	llasram	you can use `bound-fn`/`bound-fn*`
09:04	llasram	Or you can decide dynamic vars are bad news and stay away from them :-)
09:06	echo-area	llasram: I was not aware of the laziness (again :(), but I can't stay away from dynamic vars. I can create a solution now, thank you
10:03	squidz	after learning the fundamentals of clojure by reading clojure in action, what can I go to next to learn more about building APIs/Libraries with clojure? I guess it should be more from an abstract level than the technical level of learning the language mechanics
10:05	ohpauleez	squidz: Read through the source of Ring, Leiningen, and ClojureScript. Pickup and read Joy of Clojure,
10:05	nDuff	Hmm. You've actually fond In Action to be a good intro to fundamentals?
10:06	nDuff	squidz: ...anyhow -- Clojure Programming is a fair mix of practice (including a lot of coverage of the ecosystem) and theory, where's Joy of Clojure is still the best thing available on theory/rationale.
10:06	squidz	really why not?
10:07	squidz	what was wrong with clojure in action for you?
10:07	nDuff	squidz: Practice is useless to me unless I grok the theory first, and Clojure In Action taught no theory.
10:08	nDuff	...and it was really very limited on ecosystem coverage on the practice side, too, if compared to Clojure Programming (which, granted, is a much newer book)
10:08	squidz	ah okay. Yeah the practical side of it was useful I guess to get up to speed with the very basics, but now i'm wanting to learn more higher level stuff with clojure
10:11	squidz	nDuff: I dont really want to spend too much time figuring out the technicalities of how a library works or syntax that I already know/can easily figure out later. I want to learn how to design with clojure. Which book goes more in that direction?
10:12	nDuff	JoC
10:13	squidz	okay thanks! Ill look into it.
10:27	rkz	sqlkorma is another really good codebase to look at
10:28	nDuff	Ugh.
10:28	nDuff	...as something that's supposed to be giving an idea of good API design? Please, please no.
10:28	nDuff	korma is horrible -- chock full of macros and consequently difficult to compose.
10:29	rkz	I needed to make some changes and found it quite easy to figure out where/how to do it
10:30	nDuff	rkz: I'm not saying it's hard to read or change, but that most of it isn't amenable to use with HOFs
10:30	squidz	I took a look at korma because the library looked useful. But I so far have stayed away from writing macros. I'm sure the time will come when it will be the perfect solution, but until then I will try to avoid them
10:31	rkz	that might be true, I haven't used it in anger, just to introspect a db rather than using it for reading or writing
10:31	rkz	what do you use for db access? jdbc direct?
10:32	nDuff	Built my own, more composeable layer on top of clojure.java.jdbc
11:05	marcellu`	I'm trying to use clojure.java.shell/sh to create a function to execute any command as a different user like 'sudo -u test-user mkdir test-dir'. But it seems like sh only takes named argument pairs? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7342 that's what I have right now. Do I basically need a macro to make this work?
11:10	llasram	marcellu`: Outside of Clojure, this approach is problematic. Why can't you just allow the system `sudo` configuration to pertain, allowing the user your program runs as to use `sudo` w/o a password for the relevant commands if desired?
11:13	marcellu`	llasram: I'm specifically trying to allow multiple users to execute arbitrary command on the system
11:19	llasram	marcellu`: As a general rule, feeding a password to a program means there's a better approach. In this case, you can configure `sudo` to allow all users in a group to run arbitrary commands as root w/ no password
11:20	llasram	Then your program can just run `sudo` without worrying about feeding a password in
11:20	marcellu`	Gotcha, makes sense, thanks!
11:29	brainproxy	what caching/proxy servers do you like to put in front of your ring/jetty based apps -- varnish, nginx, other? if one goes the immutant route, is there a java-based solution that can be baked into the stack?
11:34	jcrossley3	brainproxy: for immutant, mod_cluster is recommended. or on openshift, haproxy is used.
11:37	jcrossley3	brainproxy: i should clarify that on OS, haproxy is configured for you when you create a "scaled" app. there's nothing further you need to configure for load-balanced web requests.
11:37	brainproxy	jcrossley3: os looks cool, but I need a localized option
11:38	brainproxy	will admit, I really haven't experimented w/ immutant yet, though have been reading about it
11:39	dimovich	hey guys, I'm using enlive to fetch a web page with charset=windows-1251, but I get mangled output... due to wrong charset...
11:39	dimovich	how can I fix this?
11:39	jcrossley3	brainproxy: i would remiss if i didn't point you to this: https://openshift.redhat.com/community/blogs/announcing-openshift-enterprise-paas-from-redhat (but it's brand new and i know bupkis about it) :)
11:39	jcrossley3	be*
11:40	brainproxy	jcrossley3: it's got to run under Windows :-/
11:40	brainproxy	but thanks, bookmarked, and good to know about
11:40	jcrossley3	brainproxy: :)
11:52	dimovich	(how to load html from a string as opposed to html-resource which loads from a url)?
11:52	dimovich	(with enlive that is...)
12:13	qerub	dimovich: Maybe you can wrap the string with StringReader?
12:14	dimovich	yeah... found the solution here https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!searchin/enlive-clj/string/enlive-clj/x4UT745nWU0/JQ3RqDk6U9UJ
12:15	dimovich	(-> string java.io.StringReader html-resource)
12:15	dimovich	:)
12:15	dimovich	(-> string java.io.StringReader. html-resource)
12:51	pandeiro	is there a way to turn a set of characters into a regular expression?
12:57	sahadev	hello, is this the right place for a clojure newbie to ask for code review? I am currently working through Project Euler problems, while I am learning clojure. I managed to finish a few problems, but the program I came up with for a problem leaves me quite unsatisfied. I would like to know how my code can be improved.
12:57	madsy	sahadev: This place is as good as any :-)
12:58	sahadev	madsy: thanks. the program is at https://gist.github.com/4226416, if you care to look at.
12:58	madsy	sahadev: If you give us a pastebin link, I'm sure someone will take a look sooner or later
12:58	madsy	I'm not proficient enough in the language to be of service I'm afraid
12:59	sahadev	madsy: no worries. if you do feel like looking at it, and comment, i welcome it.
13:01	madsy	sahadev: Looks good to me.
13:01	madsy	Except your month-firsts can probably be done without recursion :)
13:03	sahadev	madsy: do you mean not using loop/recur?
13:03	madsy	yep
13:05	hyPiRion	looks like you could utilize reductions or something
13:35	borkdude	can I ask a stupid question? OO applications usually refer to something as the "domain model", classes with a lot of associations with other classes…. is this total bullshit? In most Clojure apps I've seen the data that is used is persisted mostly directly into the database?
13:40	llasram	sahadev: I have two main suggestions: (a) Leverage sequences and sequence operations. A reduction over a lazy sequence will generally result in more readable code than manual loop/recur
13:41	jgerman	is there a clojure idiomatic way to handle configurations (such as db connections) or is just using java Properties the common method?
13:41	borkdude	jgerman some apps use maps (leiningen), others use property files
13:41	sahadev	llasram: thanks for the suggestion. what's the second one?
13:41	llasram	Trying to think how to phrase it :-)
13:42	technomancy	property files are not idiomatic for pure clojure applications
13:42	jgerman	cool, I'll look there for ideas, thanks
13:42	borkdude	clojure isn't pure
13:42	borkdude	:P
13:43	technomancy	jgerman: I recommend https://github.com/sonian/carica
13:43	technomancy	unless you are trying to hide the fact that it's implemented in clojure, you should use clojure for your config files
13:44	jgerman	I'm definitely not hiding it, I'll check into that as well, thanks for the guidance, trying to get clojure into our organization
13:44	borkdude	technomancy looking good, that lib
13:45	borkdude	technomancy does leiningen use it too, or just map reading from a file there?
13:45	technomancy	borkdude: disclaimer: I wrote the first version of it, but I don't know if any of my code survives in recent versions =)
13:46	technomancy	borkdude: Leiningen uses load-file since it needs more than just a raw map
13:46	borkdude	jgerman for property file approach: https://github.com/trptcolin/versioneer/blob/master/src/trptcolin/versioneer/core.clj <- example
13:47	jgerman	swesome, glad I dropped in and asked
13:47	technomancy	jgerman: there is also environ which uses environment variables, but I prefer files
13:47	borkdude	technomancy jgerman the example in versioneer uses both
13:47	jgerman	files definitely are the way to go for us
13:47	borkdude	or can handle both
13:48	technomancy	borkdude: that's not application config though; it's just taking advantage of the fact that Leiningen emits a .properties file for compatibility with Maven
13:48	llasram	sahadev: Hmm. Yeah, actually, I'd say just sequences :-). Like with `month-first-days` you get a sequence of the day ordinal of the first of each month in a year. If you extended that to be a sequence over the entire time range, you could just count those sundays and be done
13:49	borkdude	technomancy true, but the idea is almost the same: get-version reads the version from an env var or from the properties file
13:50	sahadev	llasram: sounds good. i will play with that approach.
13:50	llasram	sahadev: But there's some other implications here. Like you have count-sundays, which counts sundays over a specific range. If you just had a sunday? function, you could just say (count (map sunday? days)).
13:52	sahadev	days would be the sequence of all days numbered sequentially for whole time range?
13:52	borkdude	technomancy just some ingredients to get jgerman started, not that's it currently functions as config
13:52	technomancy	sure; it's an option
13:52	technomancy	it's just that limiting yourself to strings can be constricting
13:53	llasram	sahadev: Something like that. I'm getting at more of a philosophical point. Your code is broken into functions mostly at steps in a linear process instead of at boundaries of re-composable functionality
13:53	borkdude	technomancy you mean, just one level deep? yes, thats the nature of property files and env vars
13:53	technomancy	borkdude: yeah, plus you have to have special handling for things like "false" -> false
13:53	technomancy	and numbers
13:54	borkdude	technomancy true
13:55	llasram	sahadev: For comparison, here's the solution I wrote when I when I was doing the Euler things: https://gist.github.com/4227022
13:58	sahadev	llasram: thanks for your time. i see some new functions (constantly and juxt). i'll look them up.
13:58	borkdude	juxt is always the answer
14:15	pjstadig	~juxt
14:15	clojurebot	juxt is a little hard to grok but it's the best thing ever
14:39	gfredericks	postgres compatible clojure library for db migrations?
14:40	technomancy	gfredericks: https://github.com/heroku/buildkits/blob/master/src/buildkits/db/migrate.clj
14:43	llasram	brain explodes
14:43	llasram	So slick
14:43	technomancy	it doesn't handle downward migrations
14:43	llasram	Eh, who needs 'em
14:43	technomancy	but in my experience those never work anyway since they never get tested
14:44	technomancy	the main problem is that you don't get syntax highlighting on the SQL, which is horrible
14:52	kaoD_	is there any way to print strings escaping characters? e.g. with "\x01" I don't want to print the ASCII char 1, but "\x01" (or \u0001, I don't really care)
14:52	kaoD_	just like what happens when console.logging objects
14:52	kaoD_	woops
14:53	kaoD_	wrong channel sorry haha
15:05	hyPiRion	,(str (char 1))
15:05	clojurebot	""
15:06	hyPiRion	,(.replaceAll (str "foo " (char 1) " bar") "\\p{C}" "?")
15:06	clojurebot	"foo ? bar"
15:09	hyPiRion	Some hack with re-matcher and re-find, and you should be up there.
15:10	gfredericks	are there any good lein plugins for deploying executable jars to servers?
15:11	seangrove	Feels like I'll be shaving some yaks today, want to get on the new release of cljs and get browser repl working
15:12	technomancy	gfredericks: I recall someone using `lein deploy` on uberjars, which is a bit weird but technically feasible
15:13	technomancy	err--not using `lein deploy` directly, but maybe writing a plugin that used the same underlying mechanism?
15:13	gfredericks	ah hm.
15:13	gfredericks	okay.
15:13	tmarble	technomancy: what does the lein search result with annotation :classifier "sources" mean?
15:13	gfredericks	maybe bash/ruby then :) thanks
15:14	technomancy	gfredericks: `lein do test, tar && s3cmd put target/whatevs.tar s3://whatevs/`
15:14	gfredericks	technomancy: do plugins have to exist in their own project?
15:14	technomancy	tmarble: java libraries typically ship source code in a separate jar file, so IDEs typically pull these in for browsing
15:14	gfredericks	it looks like just adding a src/leiningen/foo.clj doesn't give me a foo task
15:15	technomancy	gfredericks: yeah, it's possible to piggyback on an existing project but way better to do a proper plugin
15:15	tmarble	technomancy: cool, thx
15:15	gfredericks	what's the best approach for project-specific ops code?
15:15	technomancy	gfredericks: pallet?
15:16	gfredericks	so when you say it's possible to piggyback, why might it be that foo didn't show up as a task?
15:16	technomancy	gfredericks: it's very hard to come up with a legitimate use case for code that needs to run in Leiningen's process but wouldn't benefit from being reusable in other projects
15:16	gfredericks	I have a (ns leiningen.foo) (defn foo [] ...)
15:16	technomancy	gfredericks: src/ isn't on Leiningen's classpath
15:16	technomancy	you have to add a .lein-classpath file to your project
15:17	gfredericks	anything else have to be included in there?
15:17	technomancy	echo "tasks" > .lein-classpath
15:17	lazybot	"tasks" > .lein-classpath
15:17	technomancy	thanks lazybot
15:17	gfredericks	technomancy: we're starting a high-profile pilot use of clojure here, and I'm trying to make it low-hassle
15:17	Raynes	Hahaha
15:17	Raynes	amalloy: ^ score
15:17	gfredericks	writing plugins just to get a jar running on a server seems a bit much at this point
15:18	gfredericks	s/plugins/separate plugin projects/
15:18	technomancy	gfredericks: yeah I mean I guess the use case is "I don't have time to do it properly" in which case go for it =)
15:18	gfredericks	w00p
15:18	gfredericks	thanks for the tips
15:18	technomancy	it does strike me as weird that there's no scp plugin
15:19	Raynes	technomancy: Sure there is. It's called (conch.sh/with-programs [scp] (scp args))
15:19	technomancy	I recommend uploading a tarball or uberjar to s3 as the last step of your CI process
15:19	technomancy	Raynes: oh snap
15:19	technomancy	except I said plugin
15:19	gfredericks	S3 is again rather heavyweight
15:19	Raynes	Put that in (ns leiningen.scp) then, asshole.
15:19	Raynes	;)
15:19	technomancy	gfredericks: really?
15:20	technomancy	Raynes: I already have a pretty good way of deploying apps; thanks =D
15:20	gfredericks	well we're not using it otherwise
15:20	technomancy	oh, so you'd have to hook up billing and stuff like that
15:20	gfredericks	well not quite that far
15:21	gfredericks	just auth/config stuff
15:21	technomancy	weird; I didn't think it was possible to write nontrivial clojure apps that didn't already have an AWS account
15:21	seangrove	Is there an easy way from lein to print out a list of dependencies? I'd like to know what version of clojurescript I'm using
15:21	seangrove	lein deps doesn't output anything
15:21	technomancy	seangrove: `lein deps :tree` will do it
15:21	seangrove	technomancy: Ah, great, thank you
15:26	hyPiRion	,(let [s (apply str (map char (range 0 0xA0)))] (clojure.string/replace s #"\p{C}" #(format "\\\\x%02x" (int (first %)))))
15:26	clojurebot	"\\x00\\x01\\x02\\x03\\x04\\x05\\x06\\x07\\x08\\x09\\x0a\\x0b\\x0c\\x0d\\x0e\\x0f\\x10\\x11\\x12\\x13\\x14\\x15\\x16\\x17\\x18\\x19\\x1a\\x1b\\x1c\\x1d\\x1e\\x1f !\"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{\|}~\\x7f\\x80\\x81\\x82\\x83\\x84\\x85\\x86\\x87\\x88\\x89\\x8a\\x8b\\x8c\\x8d\\x8e\\x8f\\x90\\x91\\x92\\x93\\x94\\x95\\x96\\x97\\x98\\x99\\x9a\\...
15:27	hyPiRion	huh, learning something every day I suppose.
15:30	qubit[01]	lein ring server, ring is not a task, what do I use to install ring ?
15:30	seangrove	Damn, I was really hoping this bug was fixed in cljs 1513
15:31	seangrove	In a cljsbuild project, if I edit main.cljs, the app will load in the browser fine. If I edit any other cljs file in the project, it'll auto-rebuild it, but the js produced is broken, and I get 'Uncaught Error: Namespace "goog.debug.Error" already declared.'
15:32	seangrove	If I touch main.cljs, it'll be rebuilt, and load properly
15:36	bbloom	seangrove: can you put together a minimal project to reproduce that?
15:36	seangrove	I'll see if I can, yes
15:37	bbloom	seems like that message comes from multiple calls to goog.provide
15:40	seangrove	bbloom: Yeah, I thought it was this problem https://github.com/unnali/cljs-sscce
15:40	seangrove	But I think that's been fixed in cljs 1513
15:41	seangrove	I also often get Java heap space errors on compilation if I've been auto-compiling for too long, in case that's not a known issue
15:41	seangrove	Not a big deal, and no easily repo'able, but just mentioning it in case someone else comes across it as well
15:42	DhilipSiva	Hi anybody there ?
15:42	scriptor	yes
15:42	bbloom	SSCCE? Short, Self Contained, Correct (Compilable), Example
15:42	bbloom	absurd acronym.
15:42	DhilipSiva	Hi, I am new to clojure
15:43	seangrove	Heh, I didn't make it, I just helped test the fix for it
15:43	DhilipSiva	How do I setup a dev-env on windows7?
15:43	DhilipSiva	can you guys point me to any good resource?
15:44	bbloom	~lein
15:44	clojurebot	lein is not clojure
15:44	bbloom	~leiningen
15:44	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
15:45	bbloom	DhilipSiva: use leiningen ^^ it has windows instructions
15:47	bbloom	seangrove: so you're saying that cljs-sscce project was is fixed?
15:47	seangrove	bbloom: Yes, I believe that specific problem was fixed by dnolen a week or two ago
15:48	seangrove	I actually thought that was the problem I'm having, but I don't think so
15:48	seangrove	I think I have an idea of how to repro it though, will test
15:50	qubit[01]	for json encoding/decoding, is this a good library ?
15:50	qubit[01]	https://github.com/dakrone/cheshire
15:51	bbloom	qubit[01]: I think that's the most popular one, yes
15:52	dakrone	qubit[01]: yes? but I might be biased
15:53	Raynes	qubit[01]: The best.
15:54	bbloom	seangrove: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/79bc1a9b91699ea0c2745ab5a048aba6375d3303 is that the fix you're thinking of?
15:54	bbloom	seangrove: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-282
15:55	seangrove	I think so, yes
15:56	seangrove	Has that patch been released, or is it post 0.0-1513?
15:57	bbloom	seangrove: I alway use the master branch, so i have no idea what is in what release
15:57	qubit[01]	how can I start a repl that will pick up my compojure project changes without redeploying ?
15:57	bbloom	seangrove: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commits/r1513
15:57	seangrove	Ok, I'd like to try that after I see if I can repo this bug
15:57	seangrove	Or maybe I should switch to master and see if it's fixed there
15:57	bbloom	seems like not
15:57	bbloom	master occasionally breaks, but is fixed very quickly
15:58	seangrove	Well, I'm feeling a little bit boxed in with the current version, so I'm happy to give it a try and see if I can learn more about the inanards
15:59	seangrove	Presumably, I can check it out to a directory, and use :resource-paths in my lein-2 project.clj?
16:00	seangrove	is there a function in cljs I can use to get its current version?
16:01	seangrove	cljs.core.__version or something
16:01	seangrove	I'd like to be able to tell whether or not project.cljs is picking the appropriate clojurescript version up
16:01	bbloom	seangrove: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Using-a-Git-Checkout-of-the-ClojureScript-Compiler
16:02	seangrove	Wow, awesome, thanks!
16:02	gfredericks	what does it take to be able to run the -main method in a namespace using `lein -m foo.bar`?
16:02	gfredericks	I'm getting a classnotfound foo.bar
16:02	gfredericks	sorry `lein run -m foo.bar`
16:04	gfredericks	I bet the ns being compileable is an important first step
16:09	seangrove	heh, sounds like it could be
16:10	seangrove	Ah, damn. Seems like the bug is still there on master
16:10	seangrove	Will try to put together a repro case later
16:11	hiredman	gfredericks: it depends
16:11	hiredman	lein actually does a number of fall backs and bad error handling
16:12	hiredman	it will try to load the namespace and run the -main function, and if it cannot find that it will try the class and the static main method
16:16	seangrove	cljs repl is at least working on master with piggieback, so made some progress there
16:18	bbloom	seangrove: hm.. .that's this piggieback thing about?
16:18	seangrove	I think it's broken with the version of clojurescript that cljsbuild 0.2.9 depends on
16:20	bbloom	what's it for exactly?
16:21	qubit[01]	is there a cleaner way to get elements out of a map than this (:title (:glossary body))
16:21	seangrove	Nice way of connecting the browser to nrepl, so the browser is the evaluation env
16:23	seangrove	I've been running into more and more situations where the cycle of update-file, cljsbuild-recompile, touch main.cljs, cljsbuild-recompile, browser-refresh, test change is too slow (even though it's only ~6-7s)
16:23	seangrove	So I figured getting the repl back would help alleviate that a bit
16:23	bbloom	seangrove: that fix dnolen made seems to read and re-analyze every file :-/
16:24	bbloom	seems to eliminate HALF of the benefit of an incremental build
16:24	bbloom	we need to do some serious work on improving the compiler infrastructure for tool usage
16:24	seangrove	Yeah, definitely some rough edges
16:25	seangrove	Hopefully I'll be able to contribute some more help beyond just testing soon
16:30	brehaut	huh. core.logic is over two years old
16:36	gfredericks	what's the next paradigm after logic?
16:36	gfredericks	gotta stay current.
16:37	technomancy	it's going to wrap back around to assembly
16:37	bbloom	gfredericks: i've been exploring concatonative :-)
16:37	gfredericks	qubit[01]: there is get-in
16:37	bbloom	www.factorcode.org
16:38	bbloom	side effects go from left to right, so it's sorta like technomancy said: wrapping back around to assembly
16:38	bbloom	:-)
16:38	bbloom	gotta run
16:39	gfredericks	qubit[01]: also (-> body :glossary :title)
16:39	hiredman	is logic not the ultimate paradigm? are we not just mucking around in other paradigms due to the impedance mismatch of turing machines vs. logic?
16:40	mthvedt	logic isn't deep enough… i do all my programming in zermelo-frankel set theory
16:41	gfredericks	with or without choice?
16:41	mthvedt	i'm having a hard time deciding
16:41	gfredericks	~rimshot
16:41	clojurebot	Badum, tish
16:42	hiredman	mthvedt: well you are doing it wrong, you should be using category theory
16:42	brehaut	we need a dependantly typed logic monad
16:42	jkkramer	I want core.dwim
16:43	mthvedt	i prefer the category of category theories… implemented over zf sets of course
16:43	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_nonsense comedy gold
16:45	technomancy	«Note that referring to an argument as "abstract nonsense" is not supposed to be a derogatory expression, and is actually often a compliment regarding the sophistication of the argument.»
16:45	hiredman	so good
16:46	brehaut	oh man diagram chasing. im having flashbacks to post grad
16:55	AWizzArd	Best way to group elements of a seq into n-tuples? Example 1: (tuple 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]) ==> ((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5) (5 6) (6 7) (7 8)). Another one: (tuple 3 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]) ==> ((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) (6 7 8))
16:56	brehaut	,(partition tuple 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8]) ; may want partition-all depending on remainders
16:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: tuple in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:56	brehaut	,(partition 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8])
16:56	clojurebot	((1 2) (3 4) (5 6) (7 8))
16:57	brehaut	blast. and i still missed the step
16:57	AWizzArd	Yes, currently I work with partition and nthrest.
16:57	metellus	,(partition 2 1 '(1 2 3 4))
16:57	AWizzArd	With partition-all
16:57	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 3) (3 4))
16:57	brehaut	,(partition 2 1 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8])
16:57	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 3) (3 4) (4 5) (5 6) ...)
16:59	AWizzArd	Okay, the step is a good idea.
17:00	AWizzArd	Hmm no, the step also doesn’t help.
17:00	brehaut	occasionally i like to do (map … s (rest s)) for 2-tuple things where theres an obvious operation to perform on the tuple
17:01	amalloy	AWizzArd: (partition n 1 coll) does what you asked for
17:01	AWizzArd	,(partition 3 1 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8])
17:01	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (2 3 4) (3 4 5) (4 5 6) (5 6 7) ...)
17:02	AWizzArd	Excellent.
17:02	AWizzArd	I missed that.
17:04	gphilipp	hi
17:05	Raptum	what is the opposite of `dec`?
17:05	Bronsa	inc
17:06	Raptum	brain-fart thanks
17:06	Raynes	Hahaha
17:06	qubit[01]	gfredericks, cool thx
17:07	gfredericks	woah
17:07	gfredericks	(sql-only (select foos (where {:name "Bob"})))
17:08	gfredericks	that works fine
17:08	gfredericks	meanwhile
17:08	gfredericks	(->> {:name "Bob"} where (select foos) sql-only)
17:08	gfredericks	gives a compiler exception
17:08	gfredericks	(wrong number of args passed to where)
17:08	gfredericks	why on earth are they not equivalent?
17:09	amalloy	&(clojure.tools.macro/mexpand-all '(->> {:name "Bob"} where (select foos) sql-only))
17:09	lazybot	⇒ (sql-only (select foos (where {:name "Bob"})))
17:09	amalloy	i'll go out on a limb and say they're equivalent
17:11	gfredericks	amalloy: so no other guesses about the behavior I'm seeing?
17:12	ivaraasen	nDuff: what would you suggest using instead of korma?
17:12	brehaut	gfredericks: a subatomic php partical radiating out from a near by start up passed through your computer at macro expansion time
17:12	Bronsa
17:13	technomancy	ivaraasen: I think it's pretty clear that the correct abstractions don't exist yet
17:13	amalloy	gfredericks: i suspect that you are incorrectly placing the blame on the difference between these two expressions, when it's in fact somewhere else :P
17:13	technomancy	so you can either use the wrong abstractions or no abstractions
17:14	hiredman	or build a sql parser and emitter around a clojure datastructure representation of sql
17:14	gfredericks	huh; I get the same issue when calling macroexpand-all on the expression
17:15	technomancy	hiredman has the correct answer as usual, if you can pull it off =)
17:15	hiredman	first someone needs to write and maintain a parsing library for clojure
17:15	technomancy	=(
17:16	hiredman	which is apparently impossible
17:16	amalloy	hah
17:16	brehaut	:'(
17:17	technomancy	how important is the parser though? seems like the compiler is the main problem.
17:17	technomancy	that is, I don't see a bidirectional requirement for practical purposes
17:18	hiredman	shrug I dunno
17:18	Raptum	oh yeah, what is the function that takes an arg and replicates it into a sequence consisting of `n` replications of the other argument
17:18	amalloy	$findfn 5 'a '[a a a a a]
17:18	Raptum	mucho gracias
17:18	lazybot	[]
17:18	macdonag	Hi - I have a quick question. I can use -> to thread a value through a series of functions: e.g. (-> 5 inc inc) = 7. Is there a way to do the same thing, but by providing a seq of functions? E.g. (def l (inc inc)) (list-thread l) = 7?
17:19	gfredericks	macdonag: you could reduce over the sequence
17:19	gfredericks	or pass it to apply comp first
17:19	amalloy	wait, really? what did i do wrong there? should be repeat and replicate
17:19	amalloy	Raynes: ????
17:19	Raynes	amalloy: You did it backwards.
17:19	Raynes	$findfn '[a a a a a] 5 'a
17:19	amalloy	no way
17:19	lazybot	[]
17:20	metellus	$findfn 5 'a '(a a a a a)
17:20	pjstadig	lazybot can't run programs backwards? tsk. tsk.
17:20	lazybot	[]
17:20	ToxicFrog	$findfn '(a a a a a) 5 'a
17:20	lazybot	[]
17:20	Raynes	shrug
17:20	amalloy	$findfn 7 8
17:20	macdonag	gfredericks: Hmmm, I'll look into that - thanks for the tip.
17:20	Raynes	$help findfn
17:20	lazybot	Raynes: Finds the clojure fns which, given your input, produce your output.
17:21	lazybot	[clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int clojure.core/unchecked-inc clojure.core/inc clojure.core/inc']
17:21	Raynes	Ugh, thanks lazybitch.
17:21	amalloy	&(repeat 5 'a)
17:21	lazybot	⇒ (a a a a a)
17:21	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm starting to think the ->> ends up expanding contained macros differently
17:21	amalloy	gfredericks: nope
17:21	Raptum	amalloy: tyvm
17:21	ToxicFrog	&(doc findfn)
17:21	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: findfn in this context
17:21	technomancy	gfredericks: should be easy to prove
17:22	ToxicFrog	dammit lazybot
17:22	brehaut	ToxicFrog: findfn isnt a function; its a magical lazybot command
17:22	ToxicFrog	$findfn [5 'a] '(a a a a a)
17:22	technomancy	begs the question as to why there's a difference
17:22	ToxicFrog	^
17:22	lazybot	[]
17:23	pjstadig	technomancy: ITYM "raises the question"
17:23	technomancy	oops
17:23	technomancy	dang it
17:23	pjstadig	english is hard
17:23	brehaut	i spend ages reading http://twitter.com/yourinamerica last night. so good
17:23	Raynes	amalloy: http://findfn.herokuapp.com/ doesn't work here either. :\
17:23	technomancy	pjstadig: nice job beating joegallo to the punch on that one
17:23	Raynes	I don't know what is going on dude.
17:23	brehaut	s/spend/spent/
17:23	Raptum	>your in america<
17:24	Raynes	ur
17:24	Raynes	ur in america
17:24	joegallo	heh
17:24	technomancy	brehaut: I wish he favourited the best replies like stealthmountain does
17:24	brehaut	that would be great
17:24	gfredericks	amalloy: yeah I think so. Because sql-only is a macro
17:25	gfredericks	it gets passed (clojure.core/->> (clojure.core/->> {:name "Bob"} (where)) (select foos))
17:25	technomancy	https://twitter.com/andersen_xo/status/270724516290895872
17:25	gfredericks	instead of (select foos (where {:name "Bob"}))
17:25	brehaut	technomancy: thats strongly worded!
17:25	ivaraasen	technomancy: nice one
17:26	amalloy	ah, yes indeed. if more macros inside get in the way those two won't be equivalent
17:26	technomancy	I like this one since it uses "whom" properly: https://twitter.com/_therealjuke/status/254800487784804352
17:26	gfredericks	phew I'm not crazy
17:26	joegallo	whomever is one word
17:26	joegallo	a swing and a miss
17:27	brehaut	technomancy, joegallo: gold
17:27	amalloy	so is whoever, but who ever is fine too
17:27	joegallo	nope, you only get full credit for "whomever", it's in the grading rubric.
17:28	joegallo	:D
17:28	gfredericks	so should that be a bug?
17:28	gfredericks	I'm not sure that the docs would cause me to expect that mismatch
17:28	brehaut	joegallo: please never follow me on twitter or read my blog
17:29	amalloy	or listen to him in irc
17:29	brehaut	oh yeah. add me to your ignore list
17:29	pjstadig	brehaut: i think you mean "you're"
17:29	amalloy	a bug in what, gfredericks?
17:29	ivaraasen	isn't whom considered somewhat formal or archaic?
17:30	gfredericks	amalloy: in ->>
17:30	pjstadig	it's considered the objective form of who
17:30	brehaut	pjstadig: how do you rage quit this things‽
17:30	joegallo	brehaut: i'm a nice guy, this is all jk jk
17:30	amalloy	indeed, it has a different meaning than who, and is considered archaic or formal because people think english is hard
17:30	gfredericks	amalloy: because it could be implemented differently so as to be less surprising, right?
17:31	joegallo	ivaraasen: yeah, it's got a specific meaning, and that meaning is great, but if you really speak that way, most people think you sound funny.
17:31	amalloy	that's true, gfredericks. maybe not so crazy after all to file it as a bug
17:32	amalloy	of course
17:32	joegallo	for instance, consider "where are you coming from?" -- ot
17:32	joegallo	oops.
17:32	matthavener	is there a clojure function that does some kind of recursive merge of two maps? like (some-fn {:a 1 :b {:c 2} } {:b {:d 3}}) -> {:a 1 :b {:c 2 :d 3}}
17:32	joegallo	it's very normal english. but there are people who hate it, as you're ending a sentence with a preposition and all.
17:33	technomancy	joegallo: "from whence are you coming" is obviously superior
17:33	joegallo	but "from where are you coming?", i mean, nobody talks like that!
17:33	joegallo	whence includes the from.
17:33	technomancy	oh dear
17:33	ivaraasen	joegallo: yeah, the preposition rule is quite funny
17:33	joegallo	i think you mean "whence comest thou?"
17:33	amalloy	whence come ye, matey?
17:33	joegallo	LOL
17:34	gfredericks	amalloy: okay, I'll report it this evening
17:35	amalloy	i wonder if @ShakespeareanPirate is available
17:35	Apage43	matthavener: (defn recursive-merge [& maps] (apply merge-with recursive-merge maps))
17:36	Apage43	(recursive-merge {:a 1 :b {:c 2 :f {:a 1}}} {:b {:f {:b 2} :d 3}}) => {:a 1, :b {:d 3, :c 2, :f {:b 2, :a 1}}}
17:38	matthavener	Apage43: wow, awesome
17:38	matthavener	for some reason i didn't think calling merge-with recursive would work..
17:40	nightfly_	Which thread will a watcher on a ref likely be called in, the thread where the watch was set or the thread that altered the ref?
17:42	nightfly_	My intuition says where altered, but not sure if I'm right.
17:42	Apage43	the thread doing the altering, most probably
17:47	amalloy	the docs say the watch function is called synchronously
17:47	amalloy	ie, on the thread doing the changing
17:50	jballanc	ugh...I feel like an idiot, but I'm not remembering keys destructuring
17:51	jballanc	(defn full-name [{:keys [first-name last-name] :as name-parts}] ...
17:51	jballanc	I want name-parts to only contain the "first-name" and "last-name" key/value pairs
17:51	jballanc	but if I pass a map with more than that, the entire map is bound to "name-parts"
17:51	jballanc	I thought there was a way to do this?
17:53	amalloy	no
17:55	jballanc	ah well...
18:13	seangrove	Wow, it's a different world when you have a nicely working nrepl for cljs
18:13	seangrove	With source maps, this could be crazy nice
18:14	ohpauleez	seangrove: Via piggieback?
18:15	seangrove	Yeah
18:15	seangrove	Really warming up to it
18:16	tpope	ohpauleez: belated cheers
18:17	ohpauleez	:)
18:17	tpope	ohpauleez: try running :!lein check
18:17	tpope	you know I actually saw you at last month's portland clojure meetup
18:19	ohpauleez	tpope: No way! How did I not put that together? You're definitely on my list of "People I need to meet in person"
18:19	ohpauleez	tpope: The hard exec ala ! works
18:19	tpope	I was visiting a friend who wanted to go
18:20	tpope	so I started reading the Clojure Book on the plane
18:20	ohpauleez	Ahh, crazy. I was just about to ask if you were still in town
18:20	ohpauleez	Well, welcome to the community!
18:20	tpope	:)
18:21	ohpauleez	I was in the middle of finishing the nREPL support for VimClojure - so your plugin has been a HUGE save for me. Thank you
18:22	tpope	cool
18:22	tpope	I don't know what's going on with this :make thing
18:22	tpope	all I do is literally :set makeprg=lein
18:22	tpope	and it works for me
18:22	ohpauleez	yeah, neither do I. I poked at it for a bit
18:23	cemerick	seangrove: now if we can get the ritz completion middleware standardized upon, with a corresponding impl for cljs...
18:24	seangrove	Ah, yes, that would be very nice indeed
18:25	tpope	ohpauleez: anything weird in the mix like drip?
18:26	ohpauleez	tpope: it is, but even with the short-circuit it still does the same thing
18:26	tpope	short circuit?
18:26	technomancy	cemerick: what do you think about bret-victor-style live-tracing as an nrepl middleware?
18:26	hiredman	need compiler hooks
18:26	clojurebot	your response: "Hooks that can be temporary would definitely be neat, but at some point I wonder if the additional complexity is just overwhelming. It can already be bewildering to try and sort through the differences between profiles, hooks, and middlewares as it is. If there's demand for this we can pursue it, but let's not rush into it for completeness sake.
18:27	ohpauleez	tpope: LEIN_JAVA_CMD= $HOME/bin/lein
18:27	hiredman	clojurebot: shut it
18:27	clojurebot	Huh?
18:27	tpope	ohpauleez: just found https://github.com/flatland/drip/issues/46
18:27	ohpauleez	ahh
18:27	cemerick	hiredman: well, you wouldn't be able to trace intrinsics, but other stuff can be instrumented without a problem, no?
18:28	technomancy	guzheng or some such
18:28	cemerick	technomancy: in general, I think it's a totally reasonable vector
18:29	technomancy	just need to agree upon a representation and way to specify input values
18:29	cemerick	the bret-victor-style visualization may or may not be the right target w.r.t. modeling the data involved, but sure
18:30	technomancy	oh yeah; I don't necessarily mean fancy graphics; just showing values for locals
18:30	ohpauleez	tpope: after I kill all drip JVMs, the short-circuit works - thanks. I'll update the ticket
18:30	qubit[01]	silly question, to set add key/value in my map, should I use assoc , or update-in ?
18:30	cemerick	I'm still not sold on the whole pervasive-tracing thing
18:31	cemerick	But I know some people are, so...whack away :-)
18:31	technomancy	I'm thinking of something you could toggle on a per-defn basis
18:31	technomancy	parameters and return value alone would be easy to do with alter-var-root
18:31	technomancy	let locals would be hard
18:32	cemerick	If you've got sources, you could macro yourself out of that hole
18:32	technomancy	quite true
18:33	ieure	Huh, there's no (atom?) predicate in Clojure?
18:33	ieure	Is there a predicate to tell if something is dereffable?
18:33	ieure	Other than I guess (instance? IDeref blah)
18:33	technomancy	partial instance? IDeref etc
18:33	amalloy	(partial instance? clojure.lang.IDeref)
18:33	ieure	Pretty whack
18:33	bbloom	i agreed, there's no boolean? predicate either
18:34	bbloom	those all belong in core, if for no other reason than the cljs class/protocol names are slightly different
18:34	technomancy	better to have too few built-in predicates than too many
18:34	tgoossens	I've always had difficulties with seeing "robust" & "dynamic language" together. Is it correct to say that in clojure this is not really an issue because you don't invent a new type every time you want to represent somthing (in contrast to java where you would create a new class)
18:34	technomancy	but oh wait, we already have a list? predicate
18:35	cemerick	"X is slightly different in ClojureScript", for some nontrivial value of X :-P
18:35	technomancy	tgoossens: partly that and partly the fact that most dynamic languages don't make referential transparency easy/possible
18:35	bbloom	cemerick: I'm slowly trying to close the gap :-)
18:35	cemerick	bbloom: much appreciated
18:35	bbloom	technomancy: I understand the desire to have too-few, but you think atom?, boolean?, and a few others are too many?
18:35	cemerick	bbloom: where are you working these days?
18:35	technomancy	tgoossens: and most dynamic languages run on homegrown runtimes
18:36	tgoossens	technomancy: what do you mean exactly with "referential transparency " ?
18:36	technomancy	bbloom: no, I think boolean? makes sense, but list? is terrible
18:36	tgoossens	seq?
18:36	clojurebot	seq is What
18:37	bbloom	technomancy: yeaaaah, list? is interesting....
18:37	technomancy	tgoossens: referential transparency is a property of functions that will always return the same value given the same arguments
18:37	bbloom	technomancy: especially because Sequential is an emtpy marker interface…
18:37	tgoossens	oh ok in that sense
18:37	technomancy	bbloom: seq? doesn't mean sequential
18:38	bbloom	i know
18:38	technomancy	tgoossens: if you haven't read Out of the Tarpit yet I highly recommend it
18:38	tgoossens	i added it to my "to read" list :)
18:38	qubit[01]	is there anything builtin that will iterate over a list running a function on each element in parallel ?
18:38	bbloom	technomancy: referential transparency is a property of expressions, of which functions are a subset :-)
18:38	technomancy	oh snap
18:38	SegFaultAX	qubit[01]: Like pmap?
18:39	tgoossens	so you mean that
18:39	technomancy	bbloom: I'm going to go with the "I was assuming the context of lambda calculus" excuse where everything is a function
18:39	tgoossens	in for example python
18:39	bbloom	technomancy: ok, you win :-)
18:39	tgoossens	you are never quite sure what it is going to return
18:39	tgoossens	isn't that also true for clojure then?
18:39	qubit[01]	SegFaultAX, yes thats it :)
18:40	technomancy	tgoossens: it's relatively easy to tell when a clojure function is referentially transparent
18:40	SegFaultAX	qubit[01]: Make sure pmap is actually warranted before using it. You have been warned. :)
18:40	technomancy	tgoossens: and it's much easier to quarantine everything that's not into a handful of namespaces
18:41	qubit[01]	SegFaultAX, oh ? Its slow , or ?
18:41	bbloom	tpope: so vim-foreplay is a v1 attempt at a more complete repl thing?
18:41	SegFaultAX	qubit[01]: Well the synchronization overhead can make it a lot worse for trivial operations on small datasets.
18:42	SegFaultAX	,(time (do (map (partial + 1) (range 10000)) nil))
18:42	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.067383 msecs"
18:42	SegFaultAX	,(time (do (pmap (partial + 1) (range 10000)) nil))
18:42	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: no threads please>
18:42	SegFaultAX	Oh, boo.
18:42	amalloy	,(send (agent 1) inc)
18:42	clojurebot	#<Agent@3f74b62e: 1>
18:42	SegFaultAX	Anyway, run that in a repl and you'll see what I mean.
18:42	qubit[01]	ok
18:42	amalloy	SegFaultAX: i doubt he'll see any such thing, since those both return in zero time
18:43	qubit[01]	wow
18:43	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Not on mine they don't.
18:43	qubit[01]	"Elapsed time: 0.045447 msecs" / "Elapsed time: 1.207862 msecs"
18:43	SegFaultAX	amalloy: pmap takes considerably longer.
18:43	amalloy	well. my point is they don't perform any additions
18:43	SegFaultAX	Oh, right.
18:43	brehaut	SegFaultAX: did you really mean to time the creation of an unrealized sequence?
18:44	amalloy	so the regular map does literally no work at all, and pmap pays for starting up some threads
18:44	SegFaultAX	(time (do (doseq [n (pmap (partial + 1) (range 10000))]) nil))
18:45	SegFaultAX	qubit[01]: ^
18:45	SegFaultAX	The outer do becomes useless, but anyway.
18:45	SegFaultAX	The point is make sure pmap is actually worthwhile in your case.
18:45	qubit[01]	gotcha ;)
18:46	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Good catch, thanks. ;)
18:47	SegFaultAX	amalloy: Switching back from Python, I have to remember that I get laziness back.
18:47	tpope	bbloom: s/more complete/less finnicky/
18:49	bbloom	tpope: just tried K
18:49	bbloom	tpope: so happy.
18:49	bbloom	so very happy.
18:49	tpope	yes
18:49	SegFaultAX	K?
18:49	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
18:50	bbloom	vim :help K
18:50	bbloom	Run a program to lookup the keyword under the cursor.
18:51	tpope	I felt like K and jump to source were essential if I was going to learn this clojure thing
18:51	ohpauleez	bbloom: you never did \lw in vimclojure?
18:51	ivaraasen	I thought bbloom was talking about ketamine
18:51	llasram	ivaraasen: You are not alone
18:51	bbloom	ohpauleez: i had an absurd number of issues with vimclojure, so i just kinda ignored the nailgun and all those other things
18:51	tpope	yeah that's where I was
18:52	tpope	took forever to get working, and I was constantly having to babysit it
18:52	bbloom	ohpauleez: i have a large scratch file i use with tmux pastetext
18:52	ivaraasen	llasram: an essential part of every dev kit, relly
18:52	ivaraasen	really*
18:52	ohpauleez	bbloom: yes, vimclojure was indeed a beast
18:52	technomancy	I highly recommend the approach of keeping the static stuff separate from the repl interaction functionality
18:52	tpope	technomancy: YES
18:52	tpope	I wish VimClojure separated them :/
18:52	bbloom	tpope: so apparently you always search for an 'ns form before evaluating?
18:52	technomancy	the static stuff being coloring, indentation, and paredit
18:53	tpope	if only so I didn't have to explain to people why I depend on the tool I
18:53	tpope	'm replacing
18:53	technomancy	tpope: just say "I'm decomplecting" and everyone will understand
18:53	tpope	the static stuff can ship with Vim itself
18:53	bbloom	tpope: there is a vim clojure mailing list and iirc, the author is pretty responsive
18:53	tpope	yeah I never reached out :/
18:53	bbloom	tpope: what technomancy said :-)
18:53	tpope	the stuff I wanted to accomplish basically necessitated starting from scratch anyways
18:54	tpope	I googled decomplecting and got a blog post about rails
18:56	bbloom	tpope: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy
18:56	SegFaultAX	I was just going to ask if he'd seen Simple Made Easy.
18:56	bbloom	tpope: "complect" is discussed in the first few minutes
18:56	bbloom	tpope: so, i use a scratch file a lot when doing REPL development
18:57	bbloom	there is no 'ns form in there
18:57	tpope	it should fall back to the user ns, no?
18:58	tpope	as long as your scratch buffer isn't in the classpath
18:58	tpope	actually it sounds like it's in the classpath
18:58	bbloom	tpope: my scratch file is in the root of my project
18:58	bbloom	scratch.clj, next to project.clj
18:58	tpope	well then it shouldn't be in the classpath
18:58	bbloom	i have scratch.* in my global git ignore
18:58	tpope	:echo foreplay#ns()
18:59	bbloom	tpope: no output
18:59	tpope	err, I don't think I ever gathered what your problem actually is
19:00	bbloom	so i have a src/proj/core.clj file
19:00	bbloom	in there K works
19:00	bbloom	in ./scratch.clj i get "nREPL: namespace not found"
19:00	tpope	oh hrmm
19:01	tpope	my intent was for it to fall back to user
19:01	tpope	yeah, please open a bug, I have to run an errand
19:01	tpope	should be a simple fix
19:05	bbloom	tpope: ok #9 opened
19:05	bbloom	thanks!
19:17	seangrove	Hmm, nrepl gives me a blank nrepl-error-buffer popup everytime I try to auto-complete in a cljs buffer (just force of habit) - how can I suppress it?
19:18	seangrove	I have nrepl-popup-stacktraces set to nil in my ~/.emacs
19:34	gfredericks	ha; cannot define -> in terms of reduce because it comes first
19:38	amalloy	you run into that problem a lot in clojure.core
19:38	gfredericks	let apparently doesn't have destructuring at line 1500 either
19:39	bbloom	it's also pretty tricky to order things
19:39	bbloom	sometimes a forward declare may work, sometimes ot
19:39	bbloom	not*
19:42	amalloy	gfredericks: you should try changing code that's before concat is defined. you can't even use `
19:42	gfredericks	aaaah!
19:43	bbloom	amalloy: odd… seems like macros should be able to use any feature, once you have the compiler boostrapped
19:44	amalloy	&'`(inc x)
19:44	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/inc)) (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/x))))
19:44	bbloom	amalloy: i guess cljs has the jvm clojure to bootstrap it
19:45	bbloom	no sense going back to rewrite the early parts of core
19:45	amalloy	bbloom: i haven't mentioned macros at all so far, so i'm not sure what you're getting at
19:45	bbloom	` is pretty rare to be used outside of macros
19:46	bbloom	but syntax-quote is bootstrapped by line 697, so that's pretty good i'd say
19:47	bbloom	but the point i'm making is that cond is defined prior to syntax quote, because it is used before concat is defined. it has to be that way because macro expansion happens in the same environment as normal runtime stuff
19:47	bbloom	in the case of cljs, the macro system is fully bootstrapped by the jvm clojure
19:48	bbloom	so you can define cond in terms of syntax quote if you wanted
19:48	bbloom	if the compiler and runtime environments were more easily disconnected (not necessarily by default) in jvm clojure, then an older version of the compiler could be used to macro expand definitions in the newer version, thus enabling you to define cond in terms of syntax quote
19:49	bbloom	amalloy: does it now make sense what i was getting at?
19:52	bbloom	hmm, the common lisp hyper spec states "Four different environments relevant to compilation are distinguished: the startup environment, the compilation environment, the evaluation environment, and the run-time environment."
19:54	amalloy	gfredericks: are you trying to write -> as a single-pass thing? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7363
20:03	seangrove	CL is amazing
20:03	seangrove	Reader macros blew my mind the first time I understood what they did
20:06	seangrove	Hmm, how can I get clojure to give me an object-literal as a string?
20:06	seangrove	something like (pr-str (clj->js {:a 10 :b "foo"}))
20:08	seangrove	Seems like (.stringify js/JSON (clj->js {:a 10 :b "bar"})) is the closest
20:08	bbloom	seangrove: yeah, you can't really provide a default string representation much better than [Object]
20:09	bbloom	otherwise you get into a complex scenerio of how to print higher order functions, how to deal with circular dependencies, etc
20:09	seangrove	I'm trying to stick an object literal as a data-attr in markup
20:09	bbloom	same reasons defrecord defines a nice readable print output, but deftype gives you a <FooType: af00xaddress87353> thing
20:09	bbloom	seangrove: use the gclosure json lib
20:09	bbloom	for better browser support
20:10	bbloom	goog.json/serialize
20:10	bbloom	nicer usage appearance too
20:10	bbloom	(:require [goog.json :as json])
20:10	seangrove	Meh, it's going to come out as a string though
20:10	bbloom	json/serialize
20:11	seangrove	Sometimes, html just drives me crazy
20:11	seangrove	I'll see if I can just attach the object programmatically instead...
20:11	brehaut	seangrove: thats its primary function
20:11	seangrove	To drive me crazy, or output a string?
20:11	brehaut	drive you crazy
20:11	seangrove	Heh, fair enough
20:12	brehaut	html5: less bananas than earlier html, but now also a javascript standard library‽
20:12	bbloom	http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/closure_goog_json_json.js.source.html#line126
20:12	brehaut	or is that library standard?
20:13	bbloom	make use of google closure libraries where available
20:13	bbloom	same reason you'd make use of java libraries where appropriate
20:13	seangrove	Yeah, this is just me testing things in the repl
20:22	_zach\|away	Is it possible to implement core interfaces in Clojure code? e.g. IPersistentSet?
20:23	bbloom	_zach: it's possible, but it's not a priority
20:23	bbloom	_zach: see cljs
20:24	_zach	Right, there's a heap of protocols at the top of core.
20:25	_zach	So is there any reasonable way to do it now? I suppose not?
20:29	gfredericks	amalloy: that paste of -> is essentially what I just did, yeah
20:29	gfredericks	is that how it used to be? any idea why it's recursive?
20:33	holo	hi
20:34	amalloy	i doubt it used to be that way. i didn't grab it from the history or anything
20:34	amalloy	it's probably recursive because it's shortest/easiest
20:34	gfredericks	righto
20:36	holo	in midje, is there a way to execute code when a test fails?
20:37	Quacktorcalculus	Raynes, sweetie, do you have a code example for me?
21:00	sshack	Are there any libraries for handling user authentication/amangent and maybe administration functionality for web apps?
21:00	sshack	I'm thinking in the django/rails theme.
21:01	seangrove	I'm building up a murderous, psychotic rage here
21:01	seangrove	Something has hijacked M-up in emacs so that it inserts A instead of paredit-splice-sexp-killing-backwards
21:01	seangrove	Anyone run into this?
21:02	sshack	a murderous psychotic rage when using emacs? Yeah, I have.
21:02	sshack	But mostly from it being 2012 and we're still pretending it's 1970. Not from your specific problem.
21:02	llasram	seangrove: It's a terminal input issue
21:03	seangrove	llasram: In the bindings help page I do see it listed under decoding maps
21:05	brehaut	sshack: in general the clojure web stack is too diverse and disperse to have one common solution for what you want. in particular, nobody really defaults to always using a particular datastore or datastore layer and instead chooses tools appropriate to the program in question.
21:05	sshack	Are there any options available?
21:05	brehaut	sshack: in saying all that, the first answer to any authentication question you have is to look at cemerick's friend library
21:05	brehaut	sshack: https://github.com/cemerick/friend/ i believe
21:06	sshack	I'll have a look.
21:06	sshack	I don't mean to be snarky, but it does feel a little crufty to have to build your own infrastructure. Though I understand there's good reason for it. at times.
21:07	sshack	This'll work with noir?
21:07	brehaut	i have no knowledge of noir sorry
21:08	brehaut	re:build your own infrustructure, the alternative is to have to deal with someone elses assumptions
21:09	brehaut	for direct comparison, django's auth system has taken 7 years to be truely extensible, and even then you are still using djangos orm. djangos orm is a dog
21:09	brehaut	its the intersection and lowest common denominator between relational databases and python objects
21:13	sshack	brehaut: Yeah. I've got such simple requirements, I'm okay with that.
21:13	sshack	arm, I'm okay with other peoples assumptions.
21:14	brehaut	from memory you probably want the sandbar stuff to go with friend and presumably noir
21:14	sshack	I shall have a look.
21:17	cemerick	sshack: yes, friend will work with noir, though you'll have to figure out the odd way noir applies middlewares
21:17	cemerick	I think there's an example project somewhere using noir...
21:17	sshack	Well, I'm not fixed on using noir.
21:17	sshack	<- Porting an app from mathematica to clojure.
21:17	brehaut	cemerick: you can now tell him im full of crap and what the real answer is ;)
21:18	sshack	brehaut: It's cool, I had already assumed you were half full of crap. ;-)
21:19	sshack	Anyways porting from Mathematica, I'm trying to stay as high level as possible. I'm willing to accept other peoples assumptions for progress.
21:21	brehaut	sshack: if you arent definate on noir, compojure is very nice (and its the underpinning of compojure) and you can still use libnoir
21:21	brehaut	compojure is (IMO) a more natural fit for web development in clojure because its closer to the ring model
21:21	brehaut	but what do i know
21:21	sshack	Okay, what was the benefit of noir? Why do people choose that?
21:22	sshack	Well, more than I do. Coming from Mathematica.
21:22	brehaut	sshack: i dont know. ive never chosen noir :P
21:22	brehaut	(sorry chris)
21:23	sshack	Okay. I just picked it as it seemed simple, small, good docs and was written by the same guy as norma which I was going to use for the same reasons.
21:23	brehaut	slightly more seriously, its got a good site that sells it well, and its a little more abstracted
21:23	brehaut	(than compojure)
21:23	sshack	Yeah, Chris seems to sell things well.
21:23	sshack	Ahh, abstracted is good.
21:23	brehaut	is it?
21:24	hiredman	noir is a pain if you ever want to do anything besides noir
21:24	bbloom	tpope: thanks for the fix. i'm noticing that evaluating forms is kinda slow tho :-/
21:24	sshack	hiredman: In what way?
21:24	llasram	seangrove: It took me a while to remember what I'd done to fix it, but I have this in my init.el: https://gist.github.com/4230216
21:24	tpope	bbloom: sounds like you're not connected to nrepl
21:24	holo	sshack, Did you mean: ... by the same guy as korma ... ?
21:25	bbloom	tpope: oh duh, i was connected before, but forgot i closed it
21:25	sshack	brehaut: for me, yes. I'd like to focus on where I can have a convex effect on the outcomes, which means I want to spend as much of my time improving my actual application.
21:25	hiredman	sshack: it does "everything" and if you have something that doesn't fit in with its everything then you end up with a lot of pain trying to get it to work
21:25	sshack	holo: Yes.
21:26	cemerick	sshack: brehaut knows his stuff :-) Noir is opinionatedly stateful. That said, lots of people like it, and lots of people use it.
21:26	sshack	hiredman: Okay, I'll look carefully. But if it does everything I want to do right now, that's okay.
21:26	hiredman	and it has things which I just find distasteful, it launches jetty, turning a "noir app" in to a ring handler you can use with anything else is a pain (or was)
21:26	cemerick	If you grok it faster, then there's not a lot wrong with using it. If it becomes a problem later, it won't be tough to migrate to e.g. compojure given lib-noir
21:26	bbloom	tpope: would be nice to have some feedback on slow operations
21:26	holo	i use noir. i built my own validation library though
21:27	hiredman	the stateful way it builds up the middleware to use
21:27	sshack	Okay, I think the answer is, read the source and decide if I can live with that.
21:28	brehaut	sshack: i would recommend strongly learning at least the basics of Ring no matter what you choose. it will help make everything else clearer
21:28	brehaut	s/recommend strongly/strongly recommend/
21:28	bbloom	tpope: cp and cpp work nice. is there a "evaluate top level" ?
21:28	bbloom	other than vapcp
21:29	sshack	Probably a good bet. In the end everything seems to be based off ring, or influenced heavily by it
21:30	sshack	Are there any decent howtos on deploying clojure?
21:30	sshack	Again, I'm fine with other peoples assumptions. Basic, dumb web/postgres db app.
21:31	holo	sslhack, did you choose your IaaS?
21:31	brehaut	you might want to specify where you want to deploy it?
21:31	brehaut	heroku? AWS? linux vps?
21:31	sshack	holo/brehaut: VPS moving to bare hw as it grows.
21:32	holo	sshack, sorry i made a typo with your name
21:32	sshack	very, very low transaction website, with a heavy CPU bound component.
21:32	sshack	holo: NP.
21:33	brehaut	sshack: i run my clojure webapps with an embeded jetty (i think lein-ring might have a tool for starting that easily) that i proxy-pass through to from a front end nginx server
21:33	cemerick	sshack: you can either just ship source and use `lein run` (same as what is used for heroku deployment), or you can do the .war thing
21:34	brehaut	cemerick: you clojure book has a practical about this right?
21:35	cemerick	yes, though the mix it covers is .war deployment and elastic beanstalk
21:35	cemerick	heroku clojure support was nowhere near ready at the time
21:35	brehaut	probably wiser than covering ducktape-and-string
21:35	brehaut	ah true
21:35	gfredericks	"The default language is Java but you can specify JavaScript, ActionScript, XML and SQL too."
21:37	sshack	cemerick: apache can handle the war thing, right?
21:37	cemerick	no
21:37	tpope	bbloom: :%Eval. also :Require does a (require 'ns :reload)
21:37	cemerick	.war files are the unit of deployment for Java servlet containers
21:38	sshack	ahh, so I have to go through some enterprise server thing.
21:38	cemerick	oh, hardly
21:38	cemerick	it's not 2001 anymore ;-)
21:38	cemerick	sshack: jetty is a servlet container, for example
21:38	sshack	So I should probably buy your book.
21:38	tpope	bbloom: I've been debating how to convey that java clojure.main is being used rather than a proper repl
21:39	cemerick	or, can be; the default ring integration ties into jetty-specific APIs for deploying ring apps, rather than going through the servlet specified APIs, IIRC
21:39	cemerick	sshack: I have a bridge to sell you as well. :-)
21:39	gfredericks	does anybody know jira text formatting well enough to fix this? http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1121
21:39	gfredericks	{{(-> a b c)}} is all borked
21:39	sshack	cemerick: Just fyi, the last time I looked at servlet anything was 1999. I also came down with a wicked flu at the same time and haven't looked back.
21:40	cemerick	sshack: http://www.clojurebook.com if you want a précis, ToC, etc.
21:40	bbloom	tpope: so maybe you want :Reload instead of :Require ? because there is a load-file function too
21:40	cemerick	sshack: you never have to actually touch the servlet bits when you're deploying a ring app in a servlet container
21:40	gfredericks	I don't see anything obvious for inline code in the formatting docs
21:40	sshack	The words "enterprise" or "serve let" send shivers up my spine. Unless I'm uttering them.
21:41	cemerick	sshack: well, then perhaps you should skip the whole business and use a source deployment
21:41	tpope	bbloom: I made :Require pass :reload and :Require! pass :reload-all. seems like how you would want it to work interactively
21:41	bbloom	tpope: oh, i see you also have that
21:41	sshack	cemerick: I'm open to every option.
21:41	bbloom	tpope: seems like it confuses the word "require"
21:42	cemerick	It's certainly more commonplace in the community. Most abhor anything even hinting of enterprisiness as well. :-)
21:42	tpope	bbloom: it does, a little bit, but :Reload would be confusing too, because it can also load for the first time
21:42	bbloom	tpope: i guess it's ok, since you can always just eval (require 'whatever) to get the percise behavior you want
21:43	bbloom	maybe the docs need a little table of vim expression to clojure expression evaluated
21:43	bbloom	precise*
21:43	bbloom	but anyway, what i meant by "top level form" was not the whole file, i meant a def or defn or whatever
21:44	bbloom	hence vapcp
21:44	tpope	bbloom: oh, :Eval does that if you don't give a range
21:44	tpope	bbloom: also cpap would work if it's really a paragraph
21:45	bbloom	tpope: hm right. i wonder if what cpp is now should be cpip
21:45	bbloom	or something like that
21:46	bbloom	cp% maybe
21:46	tpope	cp% will work if you're on the parentheses
21:46	bbloom	evaluating top level forms is what i want to do 99% of the time
21:46	tpope	cpab would be the vimmy way to do that
21:46	bbloom	whenever i change a function definition
21:46	tpope	yeah I'll think about that
21:46	bbloom	cpp is nice and easy to type
21:47	tpope	it's not too late to make it the default
21:47	bbloom	it gets my vote :-)
21:48	bbloom	i didn't know about ab and ib, thanks :-)
21:48	bbloom	that will be useful for lots of other stuff too!
21:48	tpope	other facet to consider is the parallel to cqq
21:48	tpope	ie "start with this but let me edit it"
21:48	jcrossley3	cemerick: abhor? pish-posh ;)
21:48	tpope	I find that to be more useful for innermost form
21:48	bbloom	i just find it very rare that i want to evaluate a single expression without the lexical environment
21:49	tpope	well by edit it, I mean doing stuff like wrapping it in a macroexpand
21:49	cemerick	jcrossley3: ;-)
21:49	bbloom	and, when i do want to do that, it's for debugging and usually will take several tries. in that case, i copy it out to a scratch file as a top level
21:49	cemerick	jcrossley3: there's actually data on this
21:49	bbloom	but i guess the little quasi repl thing might be useful there...
21:49	cemerick	"abhor" perhaps is over-strong
21:50	tpope	that's the idea
21:50	bbloom	i never really considered q: as a sort of vim command scratch pad
21:50	bbloom	it's an odd parallel with the scratch file in emacs….
21:50	tpope	I didn't either until this plugin :)
21:50	jcrossley3	cemerick: it's a big world. there are all sorts of crazies in it.
21:50	cemerick	jcrossley3: Don't I know it. I pay bills thanks to that world.
21:50	tpope	I haven't beat on it to hard yet
21:51	cemerick	jcrossley3: I think there's something interesting in the positioning of Immutant, though. Whatever 'enterprisey' means or doesn't, I think Immutant has the potential for very, very broad appeal
21:51	bbloom	well in the clojure world, it's very common to use a scratch area
21:51	bbloom	tpope: like this https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/zip.clj#L281
21:52	sshack	Are there any tools people are using to build RESTful api's?
21:52	bbloom	even though the q: style quasi repl is a useful scratch area for recent commands, i suspect most people prefer to work with more visual scratch space, like in a comment block
21:52	bbloom	but in that case, evaluating the top level would be (comment …)
21:52	tpope	bbloom: that's what I was about to point out!
21:52	cemerick	sshack: bishop or liberator
21:52	bbloom	hence i never have blank lines in my functions, so i always use a vim paragraph text object
21:52	sshack	Cool. Will look.
21:53	tpope	bbloom: in practice I mostly use cpp while already at the outermost expression
21:53	bbloom	but also, sometimes i have several statements in a row and evaluate them as a paragraph as a sort of top-level implicit 'do
21:53	tpope	but "mostly" is a pretty empty claim for my limited experience
21:53	amalloy	yuck. don't refer to code that hasn't been touched for 4 1/2 years, and then only by rich himself, as an example of something it's common to do in clojure
21:53	bbloom	yeah, i guess cpp works if you're at the beginning of the form
21:54	bbloom	but there isn't an obvious way to get to the beginning quickly…. {j or something
21:54	jcrossley3	cemerick: interest and potential, indeed. thanks for the encouragement. ;)
21:55	tpope	99[( :/
21:56	tpope	bbloom: one possibility is making cpp do outermost, but giving a count (1cpp) does nth innermost
21:57	bbloom	hmm that's interesting
21:57	bbloom	tpope: is there a way to see my evaluation log? ie view the repl session
21:57	tpope	negative
21:57	bbloom	ok, not a high priority
21:58	bbloom	i really appreciate the effort you're putting into this… huuuge productivity boost for me. my vimscriptfu isn't quite up to the task
21:58	tpope	hey man, I did it for me
21:59	bbloom	+1 for scratching your own itch
21:59	sshack	cemerick: Those two look like nicely built libraries. I'll have to spend some time with them. Thanks for the pointers.
22:01	bbloom	tpope: i notice that nothing is captured from out or err
22:01	tpope	bbloom: it's echoed. err gets error highlighting
22:01	tpope	seemed like the right behavior, no?
22:02	bbloom	tpope: (doseq [i (range 10)] (println i)) ;; only prints nil
22:03	bbloom	oh, i'm running nrepl headless… is it printed to that shell?
22:03	tpope	shouldn't be
22:03	tpope	bbloom: :Doc calls (doc ...), which prints
22:04	tpope	just tried your example and I got 11 lines
22:04	bbloom	tpope: hmm interesting… if you run `lein repl :headless` it doesn't work
22:05	bbloom	oh now it does
22:05	bbloom	wtf? weird...
22:05	tpope	yeah works for me
22:05	bbloom	something is fishy here...
22:05	brehaut	wow, disclojure hasnt tweeted anything in ages, and suddenly its something big
22:06	brehaut	"Apparently Microsoft is doing something big with clojure. Waiting for lawyer release to hear about it…"
22:07	bbloom	tpope: i'm not sure why it didn't work before… if i see it break again, i'll try to reproduce
22:07	amalloy	reeeeeeally
22:07	bbloom	seems to be workign fine tho
22:08	samflores	tpope, bbloom: tried the same example here and I'm getting just "nil" too
22:08	samflores	but I get the 11 lines if i run :Require
22:08	bbloom	damn heisenbugs
22:09	tpope	samflores: is it repeatable?
22:09	tpope	I have some stuff you can try
22:09	S11001001	~stylel
22:09	clojurebot	excusez-moi
22:09	bbloom	brehaut: hmm curious!
22:09	S11001001	~style
22:09	clojurebot	Man, the living creature, the creating individual, is always more important than any established style or system. -- Bruce Lee
22:09	samflores	yep, tried several times. same thing
22:10	tpope	samflores: :echo foreplay#client().connection.call({"op": "eval", "code": "(doseq [i (range 10)] (println i))"})
22:10	brehaut	bbloom: indeed
22:10	tpope	returns a list of the packets it got back from nrepl
22:10	brehaut	bbloom: absolutely no reliable information at this side, but nevertheless
22:11	bbloom	brehaut: i keep saying it, but the languages guys at msft actually know what they are doing :-)
22:11	amalloy	windows 9: a clojure app?
22:11	bbloom	some people just don't believe me :-)
22:11	brehaut	bbloom: i totally agree
22:11	brehaut	amalloy: ha
22:11	samflores	tpope: https://gist.github.com/4230438
22:11	bbloom	amalloy: well win 8 is half c++ and half javascript
22:11	tpope	samflores: that looks like nrepl is sending it back...
22:11	tpope	samflores: try again, but s/call/process/
22:11	Apage43	I was notificng an issue around this yesterday
22:11	brehaut	bbloom: i imagine their language hallway is pipeline for funneling smart into mainstream languages. Haskell guys invent something, F# guys make it work on .net, C# guys make it accessible
22:11	bbloom	so my bet is CLJ++ and CLJS /s
22:12	bbloom	brehaut: that's basically how it works lol
22:12	Apage43	it was working if I grouped everything in (print (with-out-str …))
22:12	Apage43	Could be something to do with how the out packets are buffered
22:12	samflores	tpope: updated the gist
22:12	Apage43	it looked like it tried to chop the last newline off -each- out packet as well, so if you have a bunch of (printlns) that send as sepeate nREPL out packets
22:12	Apage43	you wont see any of them
22:13	Apage43	since it chops the newlines off each, and they echo as a single line, and then that doesn't trigger a pause, not being multiline, and then it prints the return value, so you never see the stdout
22:14	Apage43	so for example, I couldn't get (pprint/print-table) to work in foreplay without manually buffering it
22:14	tpope	samflores: okay, that's it working as expected
22:15	samflores	maybe I have some broken Vim setting
22:15	tpope	possibly
22:15	tpope	samflores: reproducible if you start a fresh vim?
22:16	tpope	samflores: does stuff like K still work?
22:16	samflores	yep. tried both a fresh vim and a fresh repl
22:16	samflores	tpope: K works fine
22:17	tpope	perhaps because it doesn't output the nil at the end
22:17	tpope	maybe it's redrawing over itself
22:17	tpope	try :echo 1\|echo 2\|echo 3
22:17	tpope	do you get 3 lines?
22:17	samflores	tpope: no, just the nil
22:17	Apage43	this is the issue I described: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7367
22:18	tpope	samflores: the :echo line shouldn't output nil
22:24	samflores	tpope: sorry, I didn't see the :echo command.
22:24	samflores	yes, I got 3 lines
22:24	tpope	hrmph
22:25	tpope	can you try something that outputs to err instead?
22:30	samflores	print to err
22:30	samflores	Press ENTER or type command to continue"
22:30	samflores	oops
22:30	tpope	one difference of :Require is that it doesn't output the nil at the end :/
22:30	Apage43	(binding [out err] (println "WHAT\n")) works for me; (binding [out err] (println "WHAT")) gets me only the nil
22:31	tpope	Apage43: interesting!
22:32	samflores	Apage43, tpope: "\n" dit the trick here too
22:32	tpope	they both work the same for me
22:32	tpope	I'm not sure why
22:32	tpope	obvious option to check is lazyredraw
22:32	tpope	but I tried it both ways
22:33	samflores	mine is off
22:33	brehaut	Apage43: out of curiosity, what does a (do (println "WHAT") (flush)) do?
22:33	samflores	no change turning it on
22:33	Apage43	brehaut: nil
22:34	Apage43	here's really weird: (do (println "WHAT") (println "HUH") (flush)) is ALSO nil
22:34	Apage43	(do (println "WHAT") (println "HUH\n") (flush)) is ONLY "HUH"
22:35	Apage43	(print (with-out-str (println "WHAT") (println "HUH"))) is the whole thing, "WHAT\nHUH"
22:36	tpope	try :echo "1\n"\|echo "2\n"\|echo "3\n"\|echo "nil"
22:36	tpope	println sends a single \n, so that's basically equivalent to what we're doing
22:37	tpope	whereas adding \n doubles it up
22:37	samflores	got 4 lines (1, 2, 3 and nil)
22:37	Apage43	1, 2, 3, nil separated by new lines
22:37	basicsensei	hey guys, I want to reify (or change the implementation of) baseLoader which is a static java method in clojure.lang.RT, can I have some sugestions for doing so?
22:38	basicsensei	and if that's possible, does that mean that everything using that method will use the modified version?
22:39	tpope	can you guys try stripping down to a barebones config and see if it's still a problem?
22:39	tpope	I'll do the same
22:41	basicsensei	anyone?
22:41	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
22:42	Apage43	tpope: it looks like you're stripping the newlines off the end of 'out' and 'err' packets here; https://github.com/tpope/vim-foreplay/blob/master/autoload/nrepl/foreplay_connection.vim#L113
22:43	tpope	Apage43: forgot that but rings a bell. I think I was having extra blank lines
22:43	tpope	guys I just tried with nothing but pathogen and foreplay
22:43	tpope	and it worked
22:43	tpope	it's your turn
22:44	bbloom	tpope: i'm about to sit down for a real coding session. i'll let you know how it works out
22:44	bbloom	i'll try to only use foreplay rather than my old hacky techniques
22:44	tpope	have fun!
22:49	Apage43	tpope: same behavior, not even pathogen, just a bare .vim folder with nothing but pathogen and an empty .vimrc
22:49	Apage43	(aside from whatever defaults MacVim jam-a-lams in there)
22:49	tpope	okay, what version of macvim?
22:49	tpope	I can't imagine that being relevant
22:50	samflores	tpope: pathogen and foreplay = no luck =\
22:50	tpope	(tonight I've been doing everything on linux, but a huge chunck of the development happened on macvim)
22:50	tpope	are you in the terminal or gui?
22:50	Apage43	v7.3 (75)
22:50	Apage43	vim version 7.3.646
22:51	Apage43	also s/75/65
22:51	Apage43	fat fingered that
22:51	bbloom	Apage43: heh, i'm on snapshot 61… i guess i'm overdue for an upgrade
22:52	samflores	macvim too, 7.3.646
22:52	basicsensei	there's no way to change the implementation of any method if the object is already instantiated ?
22:52	samflores	tpope: tried both GUI and terminal
22:53	Apage43	basicsensei: nope.
22:53	basicsensei	Apage43: thanks for confirming
22:53	Apage43	That's a JVM thing. You can sort of load a new class over that one's name, but the old instances hanging around are tied to the old one.
22:54	basicsensei	Apage43: I want to change a static method's implementation, is that possible?
22:54	tpope	let me try upgrading my macvim
22:54	basicsensei	Apage43: at runtime I mean
22:55	Apage43	You get really werid behavior w.r.t. that and using (defrecord..) in a REPL, for example, because if you re-run (defrecord) all the old instances are -really- instances of a different class with the same name, and lots of things break
22:55	Apage43	basicsensei: don't think it is
22:56	basicsensei	Apage43: hmm could that class classloader somehow "change" that static method? in theory
22:56	Apage43	i mean, you could load a new version of that class wholesale
22:57	Apage43	but there's not a way to -just- override a single method
22:57	Apage43	you might be able to do some fancy tricks with something like asm to get what you want
22:57	amalloy	basicsensei: no
22:57	basicsensei	Apage43: you mean I could reify that class somehow? before loading it?
22:58	Apage43	i don't understand what you mean
22:58	amalloy	a class that's loaded is loaded, forevermore
22:58	Apage43	that
22:58	Apage43	you can never get rid of it, at best, you can have two with the same name
22:58	Apage43	which is just trouble
22:58	basicsensei	oh i see
23:02	tpope	Apage43, samflores: I just installed the latest macvim snapshot, stripped down to basics, and it still worked :/
23:02	tpope	I don't get it
23:07	bbloom	upgraded my macvim
23:08	bbloom	and the font rendering is just subtly different
23:08	bbloom	driving me slightly insane
23:08	bbloom	amazing how used to your tools you get
23:08	tpope	Apage43, samflores: ACTUALLY I've been doing cqp rather than cpp this whole time. when I switch to the latter, I get more interesting results
23:10	samflores	did you reproduce the issue?
23:11	basicsensei	alright guys thanks, that was the wrong way anyway, it would've been the same as setting clojure.lang.Compiler.LOADER which is not gonna work for me anyway: i need different classpaths at different points in code execution (ie. 2 different plugins running)
23:11	tpope	looks like it
23:11	bbloom	mmmm this fixes the rendering: :set linespace=3
23:11	bbloom	much more comfortable :-)
23:13	bbloom	i have uninstalled programs in rage over smaller font rendering issues :-)
23:13	samflores	tpope: but 'cqp' does no good here
23:13	tpope	I've long since forgotten the original usecase
23:14	samflores	tpope: (doseq [i (range 10)] (println i))
23:14	tpope	yeah I remember that
23:14	tpope	but that's an example, not a usecase
23:14	samflores	ah
23:14	tpope	cqp can handle that just fine
23:15	tpope	I guess it doesn't matter, because this is definitely a bug
23:20	tpope	samflores: okay, I have a pretty good understanding of the problem. it's not getting fixed tonight
23:22	samflores	no problem
23:24	samflores	anyway, thanks for the great plugin.
23:53	lynaghk	ping: Raynes ninjudd
23:54	Raynes	Hi.
23:54	lynaghk	I'm trying to use Drip, but I'm not sure what to do to get it to cache some of my Clojure namespaces
23:54	Raynes	Oh, I'm useless with drip.
23:54	Raynes	Ask amalloy.
23:54	lynaghk	oh, damn. I just assumed you knew all about it = )
23:54	Raynes	But I guess I just did.
23:54	Raynes	drip is the flatland project I know the least about, in fact!
23:55	amalloy	lynaghk: you really only want to cache totally-static never-ever-changes namespaces
23:55	Raynes	Probably the only one active project I don't have a single commit in. :p
23:55	lynaghk	I have namespace NS and I was hoping that "drip -jar my.jar NS arg1 arg2 arg3" would be fast after repeated invocations
23:55	lynaghk	amalloy: my use case is to use drip to make it viable to have autogenerated documentation call a function from the system to make output
23:56	lynaghk	but right now that's not tenable if each time a chart is mentioned in the docs a JVM needs to startup to draw the chart
23:56	amalloy	lynaghk: have you looked at https://github.com/flatland/drip#pre-initialization ?
23:57	lynaghk	amalloy: yeah, I just came across that but was a bit unclear about what it meant in practice---was hoping to figure it out and then add a concrete example to the Clojure wiki
23:57	amalloy	i think the idea is to set the class to clojure.main and the the args to "-e (require 'my-ns)"
23:57	amalloy	only formatted correctly, whatever that is
23:58	lynaghk	amalloy: ah, I see. Because drip knows nothing special about Clojure.
23:58	lynaghk	amalloy: so it won't do anything with Clojure namespaces automatically. I need to explicitly tell it to require a ns if I want that namespace to be quickly available
23:59	amalloy	yep