#clojure – 2012-12-05

2012-12-05

00:02	TheBusby	^^^ would make a great T-shirt
00:18	tomoj	Knor: may his merciful shadow fall upon you
00:24	Raynes	Don't encourage him.
00:38	nightfly_	Is Knor/Lajjla a bot?
00:39	muhoo	oh gawd no, not lexx
00:44	Knor	tomoj, indeed, I worship His Shadow.
00:45	muhoo	nightfly_: no, he's a spaceship made out of insects and human organ tissue. :-/
00:45	Knor	As you command, muhoo.
00:45	Knor	Quite the phallic spaceship, I might add
02:06	nsun	I'm looking for an html template engine. Do you guys has any suggestions ?
02:19	alex_baranosky	is it normal for a tag completion table to take 30+ minutes (and counting) in Emacs if indexing your entire ~/.m2 folder? I'm trying to get seamless meta-.ing in Clojure as well as JAva. Any suggestions?
02:22	amalloy	i've never succeeded using M-. without a running slime session
02:22	amalloy	but i haven't tried terribly hard
02:23	alex_baranosky	I miss being able to click-through into Java
02:23	alex_baranosky	it was one of the few good things about Intellij with Clojure, hehe
02:36	ambrosebs	How can I turn [1 2 nil] into "1 2 nil". I want to splice a vector into a string while still preserving nil.
02:36	ambrosebs	,(apply str [1 2 nil])
02:37	clojurebot	"12"
02:37	pepijndevos	&(apply str (map pr [1 2 nil]))
02:37	lazybot	⇒ 12nil""
02:38	pepijndevos	hm
02:38	pepijndevos	what happened to the quotes htere...
02:39	ambrosebs	,(apply str (interpose " " (map pr-str [1 2 nil])))
02:39	clojurebot	"1 2 nil"
02:39	amalloy	&(apply pr-str [1 2 nil])
02:39	lazybot	⇒ "1 2 nil"
02:39	ambrosebs	:)
02:39	ambrosebs	cheers.
02:39	pepijndevos	hah
02:50	ambrosebs	How about turning [[1 2 nil] [3 4 nil]] into "1 2 nil\n3 4 nil". Flattening each vector and putting a newline between each one.
02:51	amalloy	(join "\n" (map (partial apply pr-str) vecs))?
02:52	ambrosebs	what is join?
02:52	Raynes	...
02:52	amalloy	&(clojure.string/join ", " [1 2 3])
02:52	lazybot	⇒ "1, 2, 3"
02:52	Raynes	And you call yourself a Clojure programmer, ambrosebs.
02:53	amalloy	well, it's hardly a clojure invention
02:53	Raynes	Don't think I implied that
02:53	ambrosebs	Raynes: I will sacrifice my integrity for better Typed Clojure error msgs.
02:55	Raynes	Sounds good
02:59	josteink	https://github.com/josteink/lein-drip
03:00	Raynes	I'm not sure what this is for.
03:01	josteink	its just supposed to be a very simple way to install drip and set it up for use with leiningen
03:01	josteink	https://github.com/flatland/drip
03:01	josteink	"Fast JVM launching without the hassle of persistent JVMs."
03:01	Raynes	I know, I'm a flatlander. ;)
03:02	Raynes	I'm just curious what was difficult with the original installation.
03:03	josteink	oh nothing
03:03	josteink	just that adding one plugin to leiningen is simpler than doing things manually
03:03	josteink	handy when constantly setting up new environments ;)
03:03	Raynes	josteink: So the main thing this does is set LEIN_JAVA_CMD for you?
03:04	josteink	Raynes: it auto-dls drips, self-bootstraps drip, and registers it. yes
03:04	Raynes	That's the only second step besides wget <insert-drip-link-here>
03:04	josteink	yup
03:04	Raynes	I'm just wondering how much work you save by time you've edited profiles.clj to add the plugin
03:04	josteink	it was a means as much as anything else
03:05	josteink	it involves quite a bit of different subsystems (disk io, shell, network)
03:05	josteink	so I was forced to learn :)
03:06	Raynes	Well, if you found it useful it probably is.
03:06	josteink	me? I probably lost immense amounts of time :)
03:06	josteink	just that Ive found (for noobs in particular) that being told "just add this plugin to leiningen" lowers the barriers to entry significantly
03:07	josteink	so I considered it might make a good public service as well
03:07	Raynes	If you learned things, it's totally worth it.
03:07	josteink	doing this also involved, git, github, gpg and deploying to clojars
03:07	Raynes	josteink: https://github.com/josteink/lein-drip/blob/master/src/leiningen/drip.clj#L22 You don't need the 'do' around these single 'else' println calls. only if there are multiple ones.
03:07	josteink	all things Im certain will be useful :)
03:08	tomoj	I tried to install drip the other day and hadn't noticed that I apparently failed
03:08	josteink	Raynes: I know. I just did it for structural and visual consitenct
03:08	josteink	consistency
03:09	Raynes	Gotcha
03:10	josteink	tomoj: heh
03:10	tomoj	LEIN_JAVA_CMD=drip lein help
03:10	josteink	:)
03:10	tomoj	after that, shouldn't I see a standby jvm hanging around?
03:10	tomoj	oh
03:11	tomoj	"Drip doesn't work with Leiningen-2.0.0-preview10"
03:11	tomoj	ok
03:12	ambrosebs	amalloy, Raynes: functional application errors now have line number, macroexpanded "original" form, expected domain and actual domain. thanks :) (see end) https://gist.github.com/4213669
03:13	Raynes	You should use refheap.
03:13	josteink	tomoj: works fine here.
03:13	josteink	tomoj: but I use my superb plugin :P
03:13	Raynes	ambrosebs: Check this out. I rewrote my old ruby refh command-line refheap client in Haskell: https://github.com/Raynes/refh
03:13	josteink	but I only have "LEIN_JAVA_CMD=drip"
03:13	Raynes	If using Haskell to paste Clojure to a pastebin written in Clojure doesn't get you going, nothing ever will.
03:16	josteink	Raynes: replace "pastebin written in clojure" with "pastebin written in PHP" and it's a pretty hilarious joke ;)
03:16	josteink	or it least sounds like it
03:32	Raynes	ambrosebs: So how do you type heterogenous maps? I think you explained this in your talk, but I missed it while I wasn't paying attention. :P
03:38	ambrosebs	Raynes: Hmaps only support keyword keys. {:a 1} is of type '{:a Number}. They record the presence of keys, but not their absence.
03:38	ambrosebs	`get` and `assoc` both work well with this type of hmap.
03:39	ambrosebs	I've got some ideas of how to support things like `merge`.
03:40	Raynes	ambrosebs: Okay, so on to the more important issue. What manner of payment must I provide in order to make you use refheap for pasting awesome things like the above.
03:41	ambrosebs	Raynes: I shall give it a shot :)
03:42	xificurC	hello, could someone explain why (read-string "012") returns 10?
03:43	Iceland_jack	xificurC: because it reads is as being octal?
03:43	xificurC	:(
03:44	Iceland_jack	*reads it
03:44	xificurC	Iceland_jack: is there a way to force decimal read?
03:44	Iceland_jack	I'm not very familiar with Clojure but I'd imagine that's not possible using read-string
03:45	Iceland_jack	since that's used for parsing general forms
03:45	Raynes	Iceland_jack: ##(Long. "012")
03:45	lazybot	⇒ 12
03:45	Iceland_jack	I didn't ask the question
03:45	Raynes	Ugh
03:45	Raynes	Other person
03:46	Raynes	xificurC: ^
03:46	Raynes	Iceland_jack: Well, now you know too damn it.
03:46	Iceland_jack	And I feel all the better because of it
03:46	xificurC	Raynes: thanks
03:46	xificurC	is that a Java call?
03:46	Raynes	Yes.
03:46	Raynes	If you actually want decimal, you can do that too.
03:46	Raynes	er, double
03:47	Raynes	&(Double. "012")
03:47	lazybot	⇒ 12.0
03:47	xificurC	thanks Raynes
03:50	wingy	how do i apply a middleware for just a specific route in my compojure/ring server?
03:51	wingy	eg. i have some routes I wanna password protect and need to check the basic auth header. if they are valid i respond with the secured page, if not i respond with invalid password
03:51	Knor	Raynes, what is your opinion of that "0" is falsy in php.
03:51	Knor	As in the string containing the one character '0'
03:51	Raynes	That it is evil and Satanic, I think.
03:57	thorwil	wingy: wrap the route handler
03:58	wingy	thorwil: i found this http://vedang.me/techlog/2012/02/23/composability-and-compojure/
05:51	borkdude	any favorites on linux server distro? I hear good things about arch - good choice?
05:53	nightfly_	I wouldn't recommend Arch for a server unless you're very brave
05:53	ucb	+1
05:53	ucb	it really depends on how many headaches you want
05:54	ucb	and whether you want to spend time compiling the internet
05:54	noidi	arch is a hobby, not a product :)
05:54	borkdude	nightfly_ what would you recommend
05:54	pyr	yes, avoid arch in production
05:55	daimrod	borkdude: debian?
05:55	pyr	borkdude: i tend to stick to distributions that are very well supported by CMFs for production machines
05:55	pyr	in the linux world that's centos and ubuntu. i choose ubuntu
05:56	squidz	debian for server arch for personal pc
05:56	squidz	how would I combine these functions (+ 1) (* -1) then apply them to 5?
05:57	pyr	,((comp (partial + 1) (partial * 1)) 5)
05:57	clojurebot	6
05:58	squidz	thanks
05:58	pyr	squidz: i switch 1 and -1 but you get the picture
05:58	ucb	pyr: (+ 1) is inc
05:58	ucb	and (* 1) is just * I think
05:58	ucb	,(* 5)
05:58	clojurebot	5
05:59	squidz	ucb: yes I just wanted a simple example
05:59	ucb	oh, -1, didn't see that
05:59	ucb	squidz: so what's the real code you want to compose?
05:59	ucb	gah
05:59	squidz	I actually have something like (n-row -1 table) and (n-col -1 table)
05:59	ucb	nickname confusion, apologies
06:00	squidz	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7309 line 6
06:01	ucb	squidz: that looks ok to me
06:01	borkdude	does find-fn still work in here?
06:03	Knor	Raynes, so, would you be against the idea that say in Clojure empty data collections are falsy?
06:03	Knor	But surely not 0 or "0" naturally.
06:03	Raynes	Knor: I'd be against empty data structures being falsey.
06:04	Knor	Raynes, motivate
06:04	Raynes	Because it's insane?
06:04	Raynes	It doesn't make sense for an empty data structure to be a false value. It is a thing.
06:04	ro_st	Raynes: when will noir 1.3.0 go final?
06:04	Raynes	ro_st: This coming weekend.
06:04	Knor	Raynes, I find (if (empty x) ...) to be a very common idiom in recursion,.
06:05	ro_st	oh, nice!
06:05	Knor	Raynes, well, so is False and Nil
06:05	Knor	they are things as well.
06:05	ro_st	Knor: yes, false things.
06:05	ro_st	empty things are empty, not false
06:05	Knor	That argument is more circular than an American living near McDonalds.
06:05	borkdude	(if (next x) …) is the recommended idiom right?
06:06	lucian	s/everything but false is truthy/everything but true is falsy/
06:06	lucian	got that wrong
06:06	Raynes	Sure, let's make every recursive base-case value be falsey. We can eliminate like 3 characters of code that way!
06:06	ro_st	Knor: look at equality in javascript. it's lots of fun. they decided to make things other than null and false falsey
06:06	borkdude	Raynes what's the syntax for find-fn in here again?
06:06	lucian	ro_st: that's not even the problem with js
06:06	Raynes	$findfn 2 1 1
06:06	ro_st	oh, agreed. but it's one of the bigger ones
06:06	Knor	ro_st, indeed, and the only place I find myself having problems with it is 0 and 0.0
06:06	lucian	python considers [] and 0 to be falsy, and it's only midly annoying. js commits bigger sins
06:07	lazybot	[clojure.core/max-key clojure.core/cond clojure.core/dosync clojure.core/sync clojure.core/char-escape-string clojure.core/-' clojure.core/data-readers clojure.core/- clojure.core/default-data-readers clojure.core/unchecked-subtract clojure.core/*clojure-versi... https://www.refheap.com/paste/7310
06:07	borkdude	$findfn 1 -1
06:07	lazybot	[clojure.core/-' clojure.core/unchecked-negate clojure.core/- clojure.core/unchecked-negate-int]
06:07	Raynes	borkdude: findfn [out] [& in args]
06:07	Knor	I never find that "" or empty arrays or empty lists being falsy to be a problem leading to bugs, that 0 is falsy however does lead to _a lot_ of bugs and hassle.
06:07	Knor	Or "0" (that's madness)
06:09	borkdude	Raynes tnx
06:09	Raynes	&(next [])
06:09	lazybot	⇒ nil
06:10	Knor	However, I'm still waiting for a use case where it shows that "" being falsy is a bad idea that can lead to bugs or coding hassle.
06:10	borkdude	$findfn [] false
06:10	borkdude	$findfn [] nil
06:10	lazybot	[clojure.core/keyword? clojure.core/chunked-seq? clojure.core/fn? clojure.core/not= clojure.core/nil? clojure.core/string? clojure.core/sorted? clojure.core/false? clojure.core/true? clojure.core/symbol? clojure.core/number? clojure.core/integer? clojure.core/se... https://www.refheap.com/paste/7311
06:11	lazybot	[clojure.core/list* clojure.core/dorun clojure.core/doseq clojure.core/second clojure.core/letfn clojure.core/keys clojure.core/with-open clojure.core/sync clojure.core/char-escape-string clojure.core/let clojure.core/extend clojure.core/-reset-methods clojure.c... https://www.refheap.com/paste/7312
06:11	Raynes	I'm waiting for a use case where it'd be useful.
06:12	Knor	you've already gotten one, you just said that sparing a couple of characters wasn't useful.
06:13	Raynes	What was that?
06:13	foodoo	borkdude: (if (empty? x) …) seems like a better approach. You clearly state your intentions with (empty?)
06:13	Knor	If you don't find that useful _enough_ then that's your own opinion, however that it has some use is a fact.
06:13	Knor	Raynes, like I said (if (next x) or (empty x) is extremely common in recursion
06:13	Raynes	Just use 'next' instead of 'rest' in your recursion.
06:13	borkdude	(empty x) returns an empty collection of the same type of x
06:13	Knor	In CL code it is considered idiomatic to just use (if list ...) where it is understood that the else arm is used on an empty list.
06:14	Knor	Ehh, empty?
06:14	Knor	You get what I mean.
06:14	Raynes	(if foo-list (recur (next foo-list)))
06:14	Raynes	Also, I'm pretty sure that your 'fact' is also an opinion.
06:15	Knor	No, that it has some use is an objective fact, if you consider it useful enough to warrant whatever downsides it has is an opinion.
06:15	Raynes	That is simply wrong.
06:16	Knor	so you would deny that having to type less is a use/
06:16	Raynes	Yes, because in pretty much every case you don't save anything.
06:16	Raynes	But by all means, post your proposal on the mailing list.
06:16	Knor	You save typing in every one of such cases.
06:16	Raynes	Whatever.
06:17	Knor	I have no proposal.
06:17	Raynes	If I stop talking to doorknobs I also save characters.
06:17	Knor	Besides, that's not something you can change this far in.
06:17	clgv	Is there a tutorial on how to use repl-y in your own application?
06:17	Knor	Raynes, you don't have to be so angry you know pumpkin.
06:17	Knor	We're all friends.
06:17	Knor	Besides, His Divine Shadow doesn't like it.
06:17	foodoo	Regarding empty lists and falsehood: You should also keep in mind, that destructuring is very helpful here:
06:18	foodoo	,(loop [[fst & rst] [1 2 3]] (if rst (recur rst) fst))
06:18	clojurebot	3
06:18	foodoo	as an example on how to implement (last)
06:19	Knor	Well, in that case you would just use (if (empty? rst) and stuff.
06:20	foodoo	Knor: No. In the example above rst is either a list or nil
06:20	foodoo	and therefore you don't need empty?
06:20	Knor	But I stand by that what is 'idiomatic' and what isn't largely depends on the culture of the language, using the empty list as false is considered very common and idiomatic in clojure. Short circuit evaluation is very idiomatic in Ruby.
06:20	Knor	Well, if you give it [1]
06:20	Knor	rest gets to hold [] right?
06:20	Knor	Or nil/
06:20	borkdude	,(let [[a & b] [1]] a b)
06:20	clojurebot	nil
06:20	Knor	Oh
06:21	borkdude	,(let [[a & b] [1]] [a b])
06:21	clojurebot	[1 nil]
06:21	Knor	Well, that's pretty silly then honestly.
06:21	Knor	,(let [[x & xs] '(1)] xs)
06:21	clojurebot	nil
06:22	Knor	I do believe that the rest of a singleton list is generally considered to be the empty list.
06:22	noidi	Knor, empty lists are not falsy in clojure
06:22	Knor	Yeah, I know.
06:22	foodoo	There is (rest) and there is (next). The first produces empty lists and the second nil
06:22	Knor	I'm just saying that to say the rest of a singleton list being nil and not () is unusual amongst programming langauges.
06:23	Knor	Ah, okay, that makes sense then.
06:23	Knor	So destructuring uses next?
06:23	borkdude	I think nth even
06:23	foodoo	I don't know
06:23	Knor	So (next singleton-sequence) ===> falsy value?
06:23	noidi	Knor, yeah, next returns a seq (truthy) or nil (falsy)
06:24	foodoo	,(doc next)
06:24	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items after the first. Calls seq on its argument. If there are no more items, returns nil."
06:24	noidi	so next is slightly lazier than rest
06:24	Knor	Yeah, well, like I said, I've never encountered a case where empty collections as falsy leads to bugs or complicated behaviour unlike making 0 falsy which very often leads to bugs.
06:24	noidi	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4288476/clojure-rest-vs-next
06:24	borkdude	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--Binding%20Forms%20(Destructuring) <- nth
06:24	Knor	If you know a case where it does, feel free to share.
06:24	noidi	oops, I rest is lazier than next, that is
06:25	noidi	-I
06:25	Knor	CL does not even differentiate between false and empty list and it works fine there to not be able to do that, though I do feel a difference should be there.
06:25	borkdude	nth and nthnext
06:31	clgv	Knor: well you have the empty check with "seq" pretty easily and explicit
06:31	clgv	Knor: I fou write your loop initialization with `seq` and use `next` in the recur you can use (if mylist ...)
06:32	clgv	s/I fou/If you/
06:32	Knor	True, but it does basically 'use an extra function to get behaviour which you could normally have', the ubiquitousness of it shows that it's behaviour people want, I don't see a particular case where saying that empty collections are falsy on their own would lead to bugs unlike with 0 where it often leads to bugs.
06:32	Knor	NaN should be falsy though.
06:32	Knor	the 'empty number' isn't 0, it's NaN.
06:34	clgv	I like it that en empty colelction is not falsy - helps a lot when filtering
06:34	Knor	clgv, can you give an example/
06:37	clgv	Knor: well, I know I have encountered some in my projects - searching through these would violate my time constraints right now ;)
06:37	Knor	=(
06:37	Knor	Well, the reason I'm asking this is because I'm implementing a pet lisp and this is one of the issues that has plagued me since forever which of both paths I should take.
06:38	clgv	but on a semantic level it's a difference if you have nothing or something empty. this will always matter when you have to interpret some input
06:38	foodoo	I guess Rich choose only nil and false to be false values for simplicity. If you don't have to keep many potential false values in your head, it makes understanding code much easier
06:39	foodoo	especially in a dynamically typed language
06:39	clgv	foodoo: I think there was some explanation either in a talk of him or in one of the books I read
06:39	Knor	clgv, well, nil is generally consideered the empty tuple though.
06:40	foodoo	Knor: not in Lua
06:40	Knor	I don't see Lua's type system being based on years and years of theoretical research.
06:43	thorwil	Knor: this might be of interest to you: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/clojure/JfZvqvLZjB0/C6rSn-Zg1s4J
06:44	thorwil	particularly from "Clojure may be like Scheme" on
06:48	Knor	thorwil, I honestly agree with him there on if you want to basically have 'everything' be true but one value. But Clojure has true and false and CL has T
06:48	Knor	Though T supposedly is 'everything'
06:49	foodoo	Java has null and false. This may also have played a role
06:50	Knor	Yap, but predicates in clojure tend to return true or false.
06:51	Knor	I also disagree that nil is more nothing than "", "" is a string? that is nothing, nil is a null? that is nothing, it just happens to be by nature the only null? that exists.
06:51	Knor	It's basically a type of collection which by its very nature is always empty.
06:52	Knor	Which is why nil is considered the bottom type in CL. It's a collection containing types which is empty.
06:52	Knor	Whereas T is a collection containing values which is full of it basically.
06:53	foodoo	(first T) would return what?
06:53	Knor	types aren't ordered.
06:53	ambrosebs	Raynes: I like it https://www.refheap.com/paste/7313
06:53	Knor	Not every collection needs to be ordered of course.
06:55	thorwil	Knor: of course do predicates return true or false, as they are for formulating questions that can be answered with yes or no. whereas nil stands in for saying nothing
06:56	clgv	ambrosebs: inline type declaraions for typed clojure?
06:59	ambrosebs	clgv: (+ "string" 1) gets inlined by the time Typed Clojure gets to it unfortunately
07:00	ambrosebs	clgv: is that what you meant?
07:00	clgv	ambrosebs: no I tried to interprete the surrounding forms ;)
07:01	ambrosebs	Oh right, `cf` just kicks of static type checking for a form.
07:01	Knor	thorwil, indeed, but that's not the story he told on that google group
07:01	Knor	Where he basically didn't want T vs F, he wanted nil vs everything.
07:01	Knor	As in CL style.
07:17	Raynes	ambrosebs: Awesome! If you use it and find yourself wanting any features, let me know and/or open issues on Github. Trying to make it the best.
07:19	ambrosebs	Raynes: noted
07:19	ambrosebs	Raynes: syntax highlighting seems really nice.
07:22	clocKwize	Hi
07:56	Sgeo\|web	,((fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s))) (quote (fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s)))))
07:56	clojurebot	((fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s))) (quote (fn [s] (list s (list (quote quote) s)))))
07:56	Sgeo\|web	Yay
07:56	ro_st	quine?
07:57	Sgeo\|web	Yeah. Although I'm sure I've seen a Clojure quine before, I was able to work this one out :D
07:57	ro_st	(defn foo [] (source foo))
07:57	ro_st	;-)
07:59	josteink	Sgeo\|web: whee
08:30	clgv	`proxy` can override a protected emthod and expose it as public, right?
08:33	cshell	clgv: I'm not sure, but I saw this post
08:33	cshell	http://bit.ly/11TmbYy
08:33	Sgeo\|web	http://ideone.com/nVs6D4
08:33	Sgeo\|web	(off-topic)
08:33	clgv	cshell: as far as I tried it works. but I am not sure
08:39	clgv	Sgeo\|web: it's even more interesting if you capture the value in that context as well ;)
08:40	Sgeo\|web	clgv: ok
08:40	Sgeo\|web	I just wish there was a nice way to map a function onto values of keys
08:40	Sgeo\|web	Or.. hm
08:41	foodoo	Sgeo\|web: Can you use metadata for your functions?
08:43	Sgeo\|web	foodoo, hmm, not sure what that's relevant to?
08:45	Sgeo\|web	clgv: am I allowed to use prior code that I've written?
08:45	clgv	Sgeo\|web: erm what?
08:47	josteink	going back to languages without destructuring (like javascript) hurts
08:47	josteink	things just feel needlessly verbose
08:48	ro_st	so, it's easy to do scoped 'global' state with Ring, as you can use binding to bind atoms to declared vars in the context of a request
08:48	ro_st	how can one do the same thing for long running processes, such as worker processes?
08:49	ro_st	https://github.com/noir-clojure/noir/blob/master/src/noir/request.clj
08:49	cshell	ro_st: Can you use the binding form?
08:49	weavejester	ro_st: It depends where your worker processes are...
08:49	Sgeo\|web	clgv, I've written the "capture the value in that context as well" part before
08:49	cshell	ro_st: and bind when the thread starts?
08:49	Sgeo\|web	clgv: Sum total of everything: http://ideone.com/o7gVx6
08:49	ro_st	this sort of thing. i guess i can wrap the worker itself with a binding
08:49	Sgeo\|web	Although the result it gives is really ugly :(
08:49	ro_st	we're using quartzite to schedule workers
08:50	clgv	Sgeo\|web: oh I see ;)
08:50	ro_st	http://clojurequartz.info/
08:50	ro_st	hmm. needs more hammock.
08:51	Sgeo\|web	Although actually, this data structure as is is more useful if you're writing an env-aware macroexpand-1 function
08:51	ro_st	workers are generally system-wide where as requests are implicitly user-wide
08:53	Sgeo\|web	Is there such a thing as a truly anonymous macro?
08:53	clgv	how do you call a parameter that represents a number until some event happens briefly?
08:53	Sgeo\|web	I know clojure.tools.macro has a macrolet, but does that just make a gensym in the namespace, or how does that work?
08:53	clgv	Sgeo\|web: yeah, there was contrib lib that offered that
08:53	clgv	thats the one I think^^
08:54	ro_st	i'm doing readme driven development : https://github.com/Cognician/fusebox/blob/master/README.md
08:54	Sgeo\|web	I'm just trying to think, to see how I'd write a macroexpand-1 that takes an evn
08:54	Sgeo\|web	env
08:54	ro_st	no actual code or jars yet
08:55	clgv	Sgeo\|web: you want that bindings in the env are inserted into the form?
09:02	Sgeo\|web	clgv: I'm thinking that for a macroexpand-with-env, I could just call the underlying function for the form, but I need to know whether it's been shadowed by something, and in order to do that, I need to see all bindings (can do), and know whether or not it's a macro
09:03	clgv	Sgeo\|web: macros usually have metadata {:macro true}
09:04	Sgeo\|web	I'm skimming over clojure.tools.macro
09:04	Sgeo\|web	It looks broken, although I'm not certain.
09:04	Sgeo\|web	I have a feeling it will break if you use macros that rely on &env
09:05	Sgeo\|web	Problem with macroexpanders: Expanding a macro can cause side-effects
09:06	Sgeo\|web	I was scared of the possibility of running a macro several times, but considering that fundamental issue, maybe I shouldn't be
09:06	ucb	is it me or is ritz sloooooow?
09:06	Sgeo\|web	Hmm, my idea doesn't work anyway though
09:21	gfredericks	are side-effecting macros avoidable?
09:22	TimMc	I don't even know of any examples...
09:22	TimMc	Wait, perhaps defonce?
09:23	TimMc	nope, no side-effects from expansion
09:23	gfredericks	,(macroexpand '(defonce TimMc 42))
09:23	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
09:24	gfredericks	ha I've never seen def in a let like that before :)
09:24	TimMc	I have. amalloy_ is fond of letted defs.
09:24	gfredericks	no I mean (let [v (def ...)] ...)
09:25	gfredericks	if amalloy_ is fond of those then I'm never talking to him again.
09:25	TimMc	Oh! That's... weird.
09:26	gfredericks	I guess more to the point is I've never seen the return value of def used
09:29	TimMc	So... (def foo) ensures that #'foo exists, but doesn't change the root value.
09:30	gfredericks	that does look to be the case
09:36	squidz	using lazy-cat prevents further 'normal' use of collections because it's no longer pure right?
09:42	ro_st	is it possible to put a docstring on a keyword?
09:42	Sgeo\|web	Well, the get-env macro I wrote is side-effecting. Not really a compelling case for the widespread existence of side-effecting macros though
09:42	Sgeo\|web	What about Noir?
09:42	Sgeo\|web	Do Noir macros do side-effects, or just the code they expand into?
09:44	TimMc	&(instance? clojure.lang.IMeta :foo) ;; ro_st
09:44	lazybot	⇒ false
09:44	Chousuke	ro_st: I don't think you can attach metadata on keywords, since keywords are singletons.
09:46	ro_st	cool, tx
10:04	djanatyn	hmm
10:04	djanatyn	I'm using a java library, and I need to call an update method periodically to show the results on the screen
10:04	mdeboard	&(instance? clojure.lang.IObj :foo)
10:04	lazybot	⇒ false
10:04	djanatyn	I'd like to create a new thread that continues to do this automatically. right now I'm doing it like this:
10:05	djanatyn	(defn update [world] (.. world show) (send agent update))
10:05	djanatyn	(send (agent (ActorWorld.)) update)
10:05	djanatyn	I should probably add a (Thread/sleep) in that update method. is there a cleaner way to do this?
10:16	ohpauleez	whooops
10:16	ohpauleez	wrong channel
10:32	googya1	you can not do this (conj (1 2 3 ) 5), but in function, you can do so (fn foo [x] (when (> x 0) (conj (foo (dec x)) x))) . why?
10:32	mdeboard	&(conj '(1 2 3) 5)
10:32	lazybot	⇒ (5 1 2 3)
10:32	mdeboard	?
10:34	mdeboard	@ googya1
10:35	devn	gfredericks: 'defs letted' is my nerdy def leppard cover band.
10:35	googya1	there is magic in function?
10:38	matthavener	googya1: when you do (1 2 3) clojure thinks '1' is a function
10:39	matthavener	googya1: so you have to do (conj '(1 2 3) 5) to avoid the evaluation of (1 2 3) as a function
10:39	matthavener	googya1: thats what mdeboard was showing you with &(conj '(1 2 3) 5)
10:39	googya1	why is correct in function definition?
10:39	mdeboard	googya1: because `foo' is a function
10:39	matthavener	googya1: in your function, foo is returning a list
10:40	googya1	oh yes i see, thank you @matthavener
10:40	matthavener	googya1: alternatively (iirc), you can do (list 1 2 3) instead of '(1 2 3)
10:41	mdeboard	in '(1 2 3), the apostrophe is escaping the `()' literal
10:41	mdeboard	or something
10:41	mdeboard	quoting, not escaping
10:41	matthavener	it prevents evaluation
10:41	matthavener	another gotcha (that has gotten me), is that '(1 2 (function 3)) will not evaluate (function 3)
10:41	mdeboard	quoting
10:41	matthavener	but (list 1 2 (function 3)) will
10:41	mdeboard	'(1 2 ~(function 3)) :)
10:42	mdeboard	maybe
10:42	matthavener	mdeboard: ah, today i learned something new :)
10:42	mdeboard	unquote splicing iirc
10:43	matthavener	doesn't look like it
10:43	matthavener	&(let [f (fn [] 3)] '(1 2 ~(f)))
10:43	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 (clojure.core/unquote (f)))
10:43	matthavener	&(let [f (fn [] 3)] (list 1 2 (f)))
10:43	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
10:44	mdeboard	&(let [f (fn [] 3)] `(1 2 ~(f)))
10:44	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3)
10:44	mdeboard	There we go
10:44	mdeboard	only with the backtick, sorry
10:44	mdeboard	,`(1 2)
10:44	clojurebot	(1 2)
10:46	matthavener	interesting
10:51	hcumberd`	Hi ;)
10:55	mdeboard	,(let [x 15] `x)
10:55	clojurebot	sandbox/x
10:58	mdeboard	matthavener: iirc ` returns the fully namespace-qualified symbol, while ' is the unqualified symbol
10:58	mdeboard	I didn't bring my book to work today
10:58	mdeboard	and good luck googling `
10:58	mdeboard	(let [x 15] (quote x))
10:58	mdeboard	,(let [x 15] (quote x))
10:58	clojurebot	x
10:59	vijaykiran	mdeboard: you can always use symbolhound.com
10:59	hcumberd`	,google hans wurst
10:59	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:00	vijaykiran	for ` = http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4571042/can-someone-explain-clojures-unquote-splice-in-simple-terms
11:06	mdeboard	vijaykiran: cool, thanks
11:11	mdeboard	oh good I'm glad I was in multiple channels so they could see my quit message.
11:11	mdeboard	:( Sorry, it was a poor joke from another channel.
11:26	squidz	if I have arrays in a list how can i put them into another array instead?
11:28	squidz	nvm I just use (into [] ...
11:28	Kowboy	that would be a vector
11:28	Kowboy	is that what you want?
11:29	Kowboy	or do you want a native Java array?
11:29	squidz	yes
11:29	squidz	i meant vector sorry sometimes I mix them up
11:29	Kowboy	that's ok
11:30	squidz	but im still a little confused by my code. At one point my function returns a vector, then at another point it returns an array
11:30	Kowboy	no need to apologize, we are happy you are learning clojure
11:31	Kowboy	well they can both be treated generically as sequences, it's just that vectors are "safer", while arrays may be faster depending on your use case
11:33	Kowboy	how long have you been using clojure?
11:33	squidz	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7314 here, (n-col) returns an array, but when ran inside line 20 its returning aa list
11:33	squidz	ive been coding now for 2/3 days
11:34	Kowboy	map always returns a sequence
11:34	Kowboy	which looks just like a list when printed out
11:34	Kowboy	same thing with reduce
11:34	llasram	squidz: The vocab you want is 'vector' vs. 'seq'. In your `if`, when the expression is true, the `reduce` yields a vector. Whe false, as Kowboy is saying, the `map` yields a `seq`
11:35	Kowboy	sorry, what am I saying
11:35	Kowboy	reduce can return anything
11:35	squidz	ah right, its switching according to the if, thank you
11:36	Kowboy	if you want the same thing, you can wrap it with (seq your-vector-here)
11:36	squidz	so map always returns a seq
11:36	squidz	i actually want it as a vector
11:36	Kowboy	prefer seqs over specific implementations whenever possible
11:36	squidz	if i'm running these functions a lot, would vectors perform better than sequences?
11:36	Kowboy	do you need random access?
11:37	squidz	yes
11:37	Kowboy	it's the same concept as programming to interfaces in Java
11:37	Kowboy	should you pass around a List or ArrayList?
11:37	Kowboy	ok, if you need random access, that's a different story
11:37	squidz	so using a seq, clojure can handle all structures implementing seq
11:37	Kowboy	right
11:38	Kowboy	and most sequence methods will return a seq anyway
11:38	squidz	well in line 11 and line 5 of my paste i use nth
11:38	Kowboy	plus, with seqs, you often get laziness for free
11:38	llasram	If you really need random access, you can use the Clojure 1.4 `mapv` to perform a map which directly and efficiently yields a vector
11:38	Kowboy	you can still use nth with a sew
11:38	Kowboy	*seq
11:38	Kowboy	it's just an O(n) operation
11:38	squidz	okay so that is not random access?
11:39	Kowboy	I think so, someone correct me if I am wrong
11:39	squidz	okay
11:39	Kowboy	yeah, the map will create a lazy-seq
11:39	llasram	Yeah -- nth is O(n) for seqs, O(1) for vectors
11:39	squidz	so I will refactor my code to use sequences instead of vectors
11:39	Kowboy	even if the seq is backed by a vector?
11:39	squidz	okay so just a little slower
11:40	squidz	but it shouldnt be a big problem
11:40	squidz	it is just to transform some data of mine
11:40	squidz	so it's a one time thing
11:40	Kowboy	oh wait, it is not backed by a vector here, nm
11:40	Kowboy	yeah, prefer seqs until you have a performance problem
11:40	squidz	what do you mean not backed by a vector?
11:40	Kowboy	in most cases seqs will outperform anyway because of laziness
11:41	Kowboy	I saw the conj in your map function
11:41	Kowboy	conj tries to preserve the underlying type
11:41	Kowboy	so it returns a vector in this case
11:42	Kowboy	but that is for an item in the seq that map is returning
11:42	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
11:42	squidz	okay, i think i've been aproaching it the wrong way. I was always trying to use vectors, then having problems between mismatching vectors and sequences. When actually I can keep it simple and more general using sequences
11:42	Kowboy	exactly
11:42	llasram	Kowboy: Interesting question (seq backed by vector). It seems not -- `seq` on a vector returns an vector-specific seq implementation, but that implementation does not also implement Indexed, so `nth` does the O(n) operation
11:42	llasram	Man, it is bugging me that someone on this channel is using the name "so"
11:43	Kowboy	if and when you need to speed up random access (like if you are doing nth a bunch of times), then convert the seq to a vector
11:44	squidz	Kowboy: thanks for the help. You've helped me get a step farther with clojure
11:47	Kowboy	pass on what you have learned ;-)
11:54	squidz	but there is no sequence alternative for (subvec .. ?
11:56	scriptor	that sounds about right
11:56	scriptor	er, nvm
12:00	gfredericks	is there any standardized method for app configuration yet?
12:03	llasram	gfredericks: Does any language have such? :-)
12:10	zodiak	gfredericks, urm.. jst use clojure for it :)
12:10	zodiak	homoiconicity ftw
12:11	zodiak	gfredericks, (def conf (with-open [rdr (io/reader "props.clj")] (read (java.io.PushbackReader. rdr))))
12:11	technomancy	inc
12:12	technomancy	gfredericks: though for fancy merging logic and defaults https://github.com/sonian/carica does a nice job
12:14	joegallo	I've used that library a few times, it's nice.
12:14	technomancy	disclaimer: I guess I wrote the first revision of that; not sure if any of my code still survived =D
12:23	tmarble	technomancy: I'm using lein2 for a search of clj-webdriver (w/ clojars-classic in project.clj) but I don't see 0.6.0-beta2 in the results?
12:25	borkdude	I have a question, probably related to noir. this website renders as html in my browser: http://michielborkent.nl:8080/
12:25	mpenet	gfredericks: or for the lazy typist: (comp slurp read-string)
12:25	mpenet	err
12:25	borkdude	but when I make a virtual host (using Apache) http://twitter.michielborkent.nl/ - the site gets served as txt
12:25	mpenet	gfredericks: (comp read-string slurp)
12:26	borkdude	so, I assume noir doesn't add the content type correctly?
12:26	technomancy	tmarble: it's there, but it's on page 3
12:26	technomancy	tmarble: oh, depending on your page size
12:27	technomancy	should probably boost the default given how long it takes to start lein to hit the next page
12:27	borkdude	this is noir 1.2.0 btw
12:27	technomancy	tmarble: definitely have some issues around sorting unfortunately
12:27	tmarble	technomancy: i'm in shell -- can I just not do pagination?
12:27	technomancy	tmarble: yeah, hang on
12:27	technomancy	:search-page-size 100000000 in the user profile
12:32	tmarble	technomancy: awesome sauce!
12:37	technomancy	50 is probably a better defoult
12:37	technomancy	default
12:47	ucb	again, does anybody feel/have a setup where ritz-nrepl is slooooow? i.e. it takes about 20min to jack in?
12:50	joegallo	technomancy: i'm having a problem with lein2 search https://gist.github.com/499c4156050de2148ab6
12:51	technomancy	joegallo: geez
12:51	technomancy	can you clear out ~/.lein/indices?
12:51	joegallo	i tried to rm -rf .lein/indices, but the problem remains
12:51	joegallo	beat ya!
12:51	technomancy	wat
12:51	hcumberd`	eeeek
12:51	technomancy	joegallo: we don't even control that part of the search implementation, we just call out to the nexus indexer =(
12:59	hugod	ucb: if you're reading the log - 20min is not normal for jack in
13:06	oskarth	lynaghk: hey, using reflex - is there anyway to have a CO depend on two or more other (derefed) COs?
13:08	borkdude	wtf … http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2428563/how-can-i-prevent-apache2-from-setting-the-content-type-header
13:12	lynaghk	oskarth: yeah, a watcher will be added to anything deref'd in the body of the computed-observable macro
13:19	borkdude	the page http://www.webnoir.org/ doesn't have a content type either
13:20	borkdude	but of course I don't know if it was build with noir… ;0
13:22	ucb	hugod: hiya, I am reading now, I've tried ritz twice already and both times it's been very very slow. Is there a way I can trace what's it up to? Last time it was stuck caching JVM classes for ~15min
13:22	ucb	I actually had to kill emacs
13:22	ucb	mind you, perhaps it's nothing to do with ritz, but plain nrepl works a charm
13:23	hugod	ucb: does lein ritz-nrepl from a shell, and M-x nrepl to connect it, work any better?
13:24	hugod	you can add --log-level trace to get very verbose output
13:24	ucb	let me try that
13:25	ucb	just kicked off lein ritz-nrepl
13:25	ucb	for the record, I'm not running on an XT PC or anything :)
13:25	ucb	ooh
13:26	ucb	hugod: first thing that happened on M-x nrepl: https://friendpaste.com/2KfwQCQ8kFhqY3ni1hzasf
13:26	hugod	trampoline with LEIN_FAST_TRAMPOLINE=1 should help lein ritz-nrepl startup time
13:26	ucb	it was fast enough with lein ritz-nrepl
13:27	hugod	looks like you don't have nrepl-ritz.el loaded
13:27	ucb	strange
13:27	ucb	I installed it from marmalade/elpa
13:27	ucb	thought that'd take care of things?
13:28	hugod	or you could add the clojure-complete dependency to your dev :dependencies
13:28	hugod	maybe it's not requiring it automatically
13:28	hugod	try M-: (require 'nrepl-ritz)
13:28	ucb	hum, I don't have clojure-complete listed in my lein profile
13:29	ucb	the require worked just fine
13:29	ucb	right, now I do have ritz-* available
13:30	hugod	if you reconnect, you shouldn't see an error now
13:31	ucb	same deal with locating complete/* :/
13:32	ucb	yup, now typing stuff in the repl complains about clojure-complete, but at least the repl is up in under 1min :)
13:33	hugod	nrepl-ritz should be overriding nrepl.el's use of clojure-complete. You can always add clojure-complete to your dev dependencies as a workaround.
13:33	ucb	you mean M-x nrepl-ritz?
13:33	borkdude	adding the content type with the content-type functon worked, http://twitter.michielborkent.nl/ - woohoo, but do I really have to do this for every defpage?
13:34	technomancy	borkdude: you could do it with middleware in compojure
13:34	technomancy	maybe there's a way to hack that into noir somehow
13:34	borkdude	technomancy yes, but not everything served might be an html file right?
13:34	technomancy	borkdude: right, but your routes are composable; you can add middleware to a subset of them really easily
13:35	hugod	ucb: no, just require'ing nrepl-ritz should have forced it to use nrepl middleware for completion
13:35	technomancy	borkdude: in compojure anyway
13:35	ucb	hugod: oh, I see
13:35	technomancy	but this is basically a textbook example of what's wrong with the way noir does things
13:36	borkdude	technomancy maybe I'll write my own defpage function (def-html5-page) which wraps defpage?
13:36	ucb	I just restarted my emacs just in case, same thing
13:36	ucb	hugod: this is my lein profiles: https://friendpaste.com/2KfwQCQ8kFhqY3ni1hi0cl (copied from the github for ritz-nrepl)
13:52	Norgelys	holis
13:52	Norgelys	hola no hay nadien
13:56	Norgelys	holaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
13:59	Norgelys	holaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
13:59	mattmoss	&(repeat 12 \a)
13:59	lazybot	⇒ (\a \a \a \a \a \a \a \a \a \a \a \a)
14:00	mdeboard	&(apply str (repeat 12 \a))
14:00	lazybot	⇒ "aaaaaaaaaaaa"
14:00	Norgelys	holaaaaaaaaaaaaa
14:00	mattmoss	&(apply str (reverse "loh") (repeat 12 \a))
14:00	lazybot	⇒ "holaaaaaaaaaaaa"
14:05	al80	can you explain why this line print only "a" and "c"? (do(println "a") (map print [1 2 3]) (println "c"))
14:05	nDuff	al80: map is lazy
14:05	Norgelys	10:03:05) al80: can you explain why this line print only "a" and "c"? (do(println "a") (map print [1 2 3]) (println "c"))
14:06	nDuff	al80: consider wrapping that in doall
14:06	al80	ok, if it is at the end of the do form, it is expanded. Why?
14:06	scriptor	what do you mean expanded?
14:07	hcumberd`	It's hard to understand expansion
14:07	AimHere	It'll be expanded because the repl wants to return the value of the last thing in the do form
14:07	nDuff	al80: the thing at the end of the do is returned
14:07	borkdude	hmm, I think I did smth wrong myself
14:07	AimHere	Insofar as 'expanded' just means evaluated
14:07	nDuff	al80: ...and the repl prints the returned values
14:07	nDuff	al80: ...and, it the process of trying to print them, it evaluates them.
14:07	al80	ok thank you
14:08	borkdude	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7319 <- when I leave out the (html …) wrapped around (welcome-page) I get content type text/plain
14:08	AimHere	Well it's trying to evaluate them; printing them is the side effect
14:08	borkdude	but the page already has a doctype and everything so why would I use the html functino?
14:08	nDuff	AimHere: ...well, the point of evaluating is to get to the printing
14:08	hcumberd`	borkdude: headers!
14:08	nDuff	AimHere: if it weren't doing any printing, lazy things wouldn't be evaluated.
14:09	AimHere	nDuff, wrong way round; the problem here is that the function isn't being printed because it's not being evaluated
14:09	AimHere	s/printing/being printed/
14:10	nDuff	AimHere: That's true, of course, but if something were trying to print it, it'd be getting evaluated in the process. :)
14:10	nDuff	AimHere: ...if something were trying to print the result of the map, that is.
14:10	borkdude	hcumberd` the html function only renders a string?
14:11	nDuff	AimHere: The reason the map isn't getting to evaluating (print) is that it isn't being evaluated, yes, but the reason it's only evaluated when it's in the last position is that only the thing that's returned gets printed. :)
14:11	hcumberd`	borkdude: hiccup/html or ring/html?
14:12	AimHere	Yeah, but what you're talking about 'printing' there is just the 'nil' that's the eval result
14:12	borkdude	hcumberd` I think it is hiccup's html here
14:12	nDuff	AimHere: Just so!
14:12	AimHere	Not the contents of the print statement
14:12	nDuff	AimHere: Yes, you're right -- that is what I'm talking about printing.
14:13	hcumberd`	borkdude: tried it at the repl?
14:13	hcumberd`	what kind of html is returned?
14:14	borkdude	hcumberd` going to do it now… I'll paste the static html for you
14:14	borkdude	hcumberd` https://www.refheap.com/paste/7322
14:17	borkdude	hcumberd` hmm, (welcome-page) returns a list of two strings, one with the doctype and the other with the rest of the page
14:18	hcumberd`	borkdude: a list?
14:18	hcumberd`	not a map?
14:18	borkdude	hcumberd` a lazyseq
14:20	hcumberd`	borkdude: you are using noir?
14:20	borkdude	hcumberd`
14:20	borkdude	hcumberd` yes
14:20	hcumberd`	ahhh maybe your enclosing html elements are missing and defpage is sensitive to that
14:21	hcumberd`	I do not use noir,...
14:21	sshack	Anyone here do sqlkorma? I'm trying to see if it can access table/column annotations (comments in postgres).
14:24	hcumberd`	borkdude: what are you writing in noir?
14:25	borkdude	ah, found something.. (defpage "/" [] (list "foo" "bar")) results in page with "foobar" as content and no content-type, where-as (defpage "/" [] "foobar") results in the same page WITH content-type text/html
14:25	hcumberd`	borkdude: really in a list?
14:25	borkdude	hcumberd` just some toy, nothing special
14:25	borkdude	hcumberd` yes
14:26	hcumberd`	It should be more kind of a map, ring uses maps ...
14:26	hcumberd`	I thought noir->compojure->ring routes whould be the result
14:27	borkdude	hcumberd` defpage just expects a string, but I have no idea what it's behavior is when fed a seq, which I was doing
14:27	borkdude	its
14:27	technomancy	ring accepts seqs of strings simply so that they can be lazy; they should be treated the same way as strings
14:27	weavejester	Compojure assumes text/html for string types if no other content type is specified.
14:28	weavejester	It seemed a sensible default at the time
14:28	borkdude	weavejester it calls str on the thing and adds no content-type, something like that?
14:28	hcumberd`	technomancy: then the behaviour seems like a bug?
14:28	technomancy	hcumberd`: the fact that the same behaviour doesn't apply to seqs you mean?
14:28	technomancy	it does feel like an oversight
14:28	weavejester	Compojure has a protocol for rendering different types
14:28	weavejester	https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/response.clj
14:28	weavejester	Oh, actually...
14:29	weavejester	Huh, Compojure does treat ISeqs of strings the same way
14:29	weavejester	Guess it's not my fault after all :)
14:29	hcumberd`	technomancy: that the content type is missed out if you are providing a seq
14:29	technomancy	heh; nice =)
14:29	technomancy	hcumberd`: yeah, according to that link it's not compojure's fault
14:30	hcumberd`	a problem of defpage ?
14:30	technomancy	weavejester: why is content-type a function vs just using assoc directly?
14:30	weavejester	Unless an older version of Compojure is being used.
14:30	technomancy	weavejester: oh, probably because of case insensitivity?
14:30	borkdude	weavejester in what version of compojure was this added?
14:30	technomancy	that's a really annoying quirk of http
14:30	borkdude	weavejester I'm probably using too old stuff then (noir 1.2.0...)
14:31	weavejester	technomancy: Well, it's more that it's just a common thing to want to do
14:31	weavejester	technomancy: And (content-type "text/plain") is slightly more readable than (assoc-in [:headers "Content-Type"] "text/plain")
14:32	technomancy	oh right; I was thinking it would be a plain assoc for some reason
14:32	clojure-newb	yo guys, I found (reduce #(update-in %1 [{:employer (:employer %2)}] conj %2) {} [jay mike john]) indexing a collection for me nicely (from a blog post), I'd like to modify it to count the items against each index instead of listing them… any ideas ?
14:32	technomancy	weavejester: does compojure handle headers case-insensitively?
14:32	weavejester	technomancy: Request headers are lower-cased by Ring in order to provide consistent keys
14:33	weavejester	technomancy: Response headers are sent as-is, but HTTP header names are case insensitive
14:33	technomancy	gotcha. best to have that handled at the lowest level possible I guess.
14:33	weavejester	technomancy: So it doesn't matter if you output "content-type: text/plain" or "Content-Type: text/plain"
14:34	borkdude	noir 1.2.0 depends on compojure 0.6.5
14:34	weavejester	The only problem is middleware that updates headers set by the handler or other middleware
14:34	technomancy	weavejester: will that interfere with the auto-text/htmlizing if the case mismatches?
14:34	weavejester	borkdude: Oh, that's old.
14:35	borkdude	hmm, 1.2.1 does too
14:35	weavejester	technomancy: I see your point… hm… actually, I told a lie. If a string is returned, the content type is set to text/html regardless.
14:36	weavejester	technomancy: However, if you return a map, then it passes straight through
14:36	borkdude	but anyway, problem solved - I should have noted that an enlive deftemplate returns a lazyseq of strings
14:37	weavejester	So (GET "/" [] "Hello") will have a content type of "text/html"
14:37	technomancy	oh of course; if you care about your content type you won't hit that path anyway
14:37	hcumberd`	weavejester: I think header case sensibility for headers leads to different behaviour in some browsers
14:37	weavejester	But (GET "/" [] (-> (response "Hello") (content-type "text/plain")))
14:38	weavejester	hcumberd`: I'd be interested in knowing which browsers have that bug. If you recall a link, let me know.
14:38	borkdude	probably I shouldn't have used enlive to serve a complete static html file in the first place, but consistency with the other pages made me do it
14:39	holo	is the use of clojure.lang.MapEntry. to create MapEntry still unadvised?
14:40	technomancy	holo: almost certainly
14:40	technomancy	just use a vector
14:40	holo	thanks
14:41	Norgelys	holoa
14:44	hcumberd`	weavejester: okay! RFC2616 says header field names are case-insensitive
14:45	seangrove	Is there a way to comp dotforms?
14:49	cemerick	seangrove: you mean .foo?
14:49	seangrove	Yeah
14:49	seangrove	(comp .foo .bar)
14:50	cemerick	well, those are sugar for the . special form. comp only works with functions. So, (comp #(.foo %) #(.bar %))
14:50	seangrove	As a shorthand version of (comp (fn [x] (.foo x)) (fn [x] (.bar x)))
14:50	seangrove	yeah
14:50	seangrove	Just wondering
14:50	cemerick	yeah, that's the shortest option
14:51	cemerick	a macro could do it more concisely, but would be your own little thing, and have various limitations
14:51	seangrove	Heh, was just curious, it's not such a big deal
14:52	cemerick	:-)
14:52	cemerick	Generally, the answer to "Is there a way to bar foo?" is 'yes'.
14:52	cemerick	Just a matter of whether you care enough or not.
14:52	seangrove	Ah, should have qualified, "Is there a built-in, standard way to bar foo?"
14:52	technomancy	there is memfn
14:54	cemerick	heh, haven't used memfn in…
14:54	cemerick	well, ever, probably
14:54	mdeboard	huh.
14:54	mdeboard	memfn
14:55	llasram	Isn't it deprecated?
14:55	cemerick	No
14:55	technomancy	llasram: I think rich hates it but hasn't deprecated it?
14:55	technomancy	not sure
14:55	llasram	Ok
14:55	cemerick	Certainly fell out of use once the #() literal came around
14:56	hcumberd`	cemerick: how can memfn and #() can be compared I'm a bit confused
14:56	technomancy	I'd personally take one alpha token over two punctuation tokens usually
14:57	Chousuke	technomancy: do you ever program in haskell? :P
14:57	cemerick	hcumberd`: both can produce a function that invokes a Java method
14:57	mdeboard	`#(into #{} '(x ~(+ 2 1)))
14:57	cemerick	'course, that's the only thing memfn can do, and not particularly well
14:57	technomancy	,(macroexpand-1 '(memfn hello))
14:57	clojurebot	(clojure.core/fn [target__2740__auto__] (. target__2740__auto__ (hello)))
14:58	technomancy	Chousuke: just a touch of ocaml
14:58	technomancy	hcumberd`: ^
14:58	Chousuke	Heh. I don't know about ocaml but haskell people seem to love defining new operators.
14:59	Chousuke	usually with punctuation
14:59	nDuff	Heh.
14:59	Kowboy	ugggg, Java is so cumbersome to work with
14:59	Chousuke	then again, some of them are pretty neat.
14:59	nDuff	Recently had someone coming from Haskell over in #python complaining about not being able to do that
14:59	technomancy	Chousuke: can't be worse than scala: http://www.flotsam.nl/dispatch-periodic-table.html
14:59	nDuff	(creating new operators)
15:00	Chousuke	technomancy: I think the most popular lens library defines half a dozen or so operators
15:00	Chousuke	or a couple dozen. I haven't counted
15:00	hcumberd`	Scala is a mutant language for mutants
15:00	cemerick	technomancy, Chousuke: of course: http://glyphic.s3.amazonaws.com/ozone/mark/periodic/Periodic%20Table%20of%20the%20Operators%20A4%20300dpi.jpg
15:01	technomancy	cemerick: oh dear
15:01	oskarth	lynaghk: hmm, doesn't seem to work for me: https://gist.github.com/4218942
15:01	technomancy	cemerick: still, an entire book on an HTTP client?
15:01	cemerick	I give perl a pass though, because any community that can produce a gorgeous "Periodic Table of Operators" like that is just doing just fine IMO.
15:02	cemerick	technomancy: book?
15:02	lynaghk	oskarth: what's the bit that isn't working?
15:02	technomancy	cemerick: the link at the bottom of the dispatch operator table
15:02	Chousuke	technomancy: check out eg. this page http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/data-lens/2.10.2/doc/html/Data-Lens-Common.html :P
15:02	oskarth	lynaghk: the d CO that's depending on the two COs b and c
15:03	oskarth	am I calling it wrong somehow?
15:03	lynaghk	oskarth: so not working meaning that if you change b or c the value of d is not updated when you later deref it?
15:03	Chousuke	when your operator is "^!+=" you're taking it too far
15:03	clojure-newb	if I have an indexed map how do I process it to keep the key of each item, and get the count of the value of each item (which is a collection) ?
15:03	technomancy	Chousuke: ouch
15:03	hcumberd`	technomancy: which OS do you use?
15:03	technomancy	hcumberd`: debian
15:03	Chousuke	then again, none of those are strictly speaking necessary so I suppose it's fine
15:03	cemerick	technomancy: well, it's only $3 and 23 pages. I'll bet lein's doc could easily fill that space, even if it weren't prettied up for publication. ;-)
15:03	lynaghk	oskarth: also note that there is a bug in the ClojureScript compiler that breaks reflex somehow; it's fixed in master, but broken after whatever version lein cljsbuild 0.2.7 references
15:03	Chousuke	lenses themselves are pretty awesome
15:03	oskarth	lynaghk: it's compiling but breaks in the browser
15:04	lynaghk	oskarth: so see if you still have the problem when compiling with lein cljsbuild 0.2.7.
15:04	Chousuke	they remind me of common lisp generalized references but are even more general, purely functional, and all around pretty neat :P
15:04	oskarth	lynaghk: oh I see, could that be it? will try that, thanks
15:04	lynaghk	oskarth: yeah. give that a shot. If it's still broken, please put the stacktrace or unexpeceted results on the gist.
15:04	`fogus	Any language that allows me to embed a BASIC DSL right in the middle is fine by me: https://github.com/fogus/baysick and http://hackage.haskell.org/packages/archive/BASIC/0.1.5.0/doc/html/Language-BASIC.html
15:05	technomancy	cemerick: oh ok; not so bad then
15:07	AimHere	Does that mean BASIC is okay by you?
15:07	cemerick	BASIC is definitionally okay
15:09	`fogus	BASIC is BACK!
15:09	`fogus	BASIC is BAD (in the good way)
15:09	cemerick	I want line numbers in Clojure.
15:09	cemerick	I'll settle for form numbers.
15:09	unic0rn	O.O
15:09	llasram	cemerick: (recur-to 12) ?
15:10	`fogus	I think chouser was playing with something like that at one point
15:10	cemerick	absolutely
15:10	hcumberd`	chat party at tv primetime ;)
15:10	cemerick	`fogus: of course he was :-P
15:12	unic0rn	i guess line numbers were useful when 8bit machines had line editors, so you couldn't really edit the line without its number
15:12	unic0rn	clojure with line numbers...
15:12	unic0rn	abomination
15:12	cemerick	abomination?!
15:12	unic0rn	yes! :P
15:13	unic0rn	rotflmaoshtccomnaiweda
15:13	mdeboard	what
15:13	unic0rn	google
15:13	cemerick	goodness
15:13	mdeboard	,(google)
15:13	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:15	amalloy	cemerick: surely #(apply % %&) is a better gosub?
15:16	holo	a too-much-time-at-hands-question: which one is more idiomatic? (#' namespace/var) or (#'namespace/var) ?
15:16	cemerick	amalloy: waitaminute, I don't need a straight-man
15:17	hcumberd`	,(google "bot supports google)
15:17	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
15:17	hcumberd`	,(google "google")
15:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
15:17	hcumberd`	;(
15:17	cemerick	holo: the last one in here that put spaces after quotes is still on the island to which he was banished
15:18	cemerick	$google rotflmaoshtccomnaiweda
15:18	lazybot	[Grand Lake Links ACRONYMs] http://www.grandlakelinks.com/AlphabetSoup.shtml
15:18	hcumberd`	ahh thx cemerick
15:18	oskarth	lynaghk: cljsbuild 0.2.7 didnt help, stacktrace here: https://gist.github.com/4218942 [using clojurescript 0.0-1450]
15:18	cemerick	Bizarre, that's not the first result
15:18	hcumberd`	What is %& ?
15:18	hcumberd`	Is there a reference to the crazy clojure operators such as %2 ,...
15:19	lynaghk	oskarth: ah, I see what's going on
15:20	lynaghk	oskarth: the library is totally naive, and you have a diamond in the dependency graph.
15:20	lynaghk	d depends on c and b, and both c and b depend on a.
15:20	holo	cemerick, do you mean i'm just lucky i also didn't get banished to an island?
15:20	cemerick	holo: Nah, I'm just trying to fulfill a dare to be as unfunny as possible in channel.
15:21	oskarth	lynaghk: what's wrong with that?
15:21	oskarth	if a is changed somewhere I would expect b,c to be +1,-1 and d to be [a+1, a-1]
15:21	lynaghk	oskarth: some craziness is going on where the system is getting into a loop
15:21	oskarth	ah
15:21	lynaghk	oskarth: semantically, nothing is wrong with what you're trying to do. The problem is with my implementation (which was, and always will be, a total hack)
15:22	holo	cemerick, thanks for the info (i mean about the spaces)
15:22	oskarth	lynaghk: do you have any ideas for how to solve this type of problem? we could take a crack at a patch
15:23	lynaghk	oskarth: well, actually, it's not clear what is going wrong here because no values are actually getting updated.
15:23	`fogus	I'm disappointed at the poor showing for the word "hammock" --> http://plwords.herokuapp.com/languages/clojure
15:23	lynaghk	let me take a quick look
15:26	holo	`fogus, i notice some apps hosted on heroku (probably clojure apps) use that menu bar on the top. is it popular? is it a template with a name for which i can download?
15:28	llasram	holo: I assume the ubiquitous http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/
15:28	lynaghk	oskarth: okay, I fooled myself. The problem is not with both COs depending on the same atom, it's with dereferencing two COs within another CO, which is apparently something we've never run into before
15:29	`fogus	holo: Looks like a Github pages template to me.
15:29	lynaghk	oskarth: I don't have time to look into this today, but if you want to open up an issue on reflex I'll take a stab. Or, if you're feeling lucky you can dive into the implementation yourself---it's not terribly complex.
15:29	oskarth	lynaghk: yeah I see, do you have any ideas why is a problem? we took a short dive into the source code but couldn't find any immediate reasons to why it wouldn't work
15:30	oskarth	will take a stab at it regardless, but any pointers you might have would be great :) we are me and cpetzold btw
15:30	holo	`fogus, this is cool. thanks
15:30	lynaghk	oskarth: unfortunately, no. that's why this library (and callbacks in general) are terrible---they work until they don't and then it's a nightmare to debug.
15:40	hcumberd`	why is the clojure community growing so fast?
15:43	Raynes	hcumberd`: Steroids.
15:43	nDuff	hcumberd`: ...compared to what? But to throw in my own $.02 -- there are a lot of people who like LISPs for their aesthetics and flexibility, but Clojure is the most practical one for getting useful things done in the real world to have come along for a while.
15:43	Raynes	I like my non-buzzwordy answer better.
15:44	ivan	based on current trends, all of freenode will be in #clojure in a month
15:45	Raynes	Even the 1000 people in #haskell !?!?!
15:47	holo	the clojure community is the most friendly
15:47	hcumberd`	#C++ was so full it wasn't possible to join for a few days
15:48	hcumberd`	nDuff: compared to for example groovy, grails, vertx, jruby and all the other JVM languages. It is even more in focus than Google Go
15:54	oskarth	lynaghk: cloning reflex and running the tests I get 'error: no protocol method ISeqable.-seq defined for type number: 1' - is there something else I need to do to get the tests to run?
15:56	holo	google go supports plan 9 ^^"
15:56	hcumberd`	what is plan 9?
15:57	scriptor	hcumberd`: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
15:58	holo	i just read it on wikipedia. plan 9 is the next unix, or something. everything is files concept, distributed, name inspired from some bad rated movie
16:00	holo	i think nowadays, if someone invents a language, the first thing i want to read is
16:00	holo	answer to "why????"
16:03	hcumberd`	Does Plan9 have impact?
16:03	hcumberd`	I never heard of it before
16:03	hcumberd`	Wikipedia does not clearify all aspects
16:03	hcumberd`	microkernel?
16:03	hcumberd`	What's about google go?
16:04	scriptor	plan 9 never was used much outside of research
16:05	holo	hcumberd`, if you are interested in distributed operating systems and unix, you will definitely like the ideas behind plan9
16:06	hcumberd`	holo: srsly plans to support FAT, work to extend plan9 with a google go compiler, last release 2002
16:06	hcumberd`	"Last stable release 10 years ago"
16:07	mthvedt	a new meaning to the words stable release
16:08	holo	hcumberd`, if you want to use a sort of plan9 in your browser, you can use inferno. i don't know the developments since many years ago
16:08	nDuff	hcumberd`: Plan 9 has plenty of historical impact, yes -- if nothing else as a well-attended proof-of-concept re: modularity.
16:08	hcumberd`	In a perfect world GNU hurd has been released two days ago. Minix supports all file systems and is as usable as linux.
16:08	hcumberd`	+ Clojure will not depend on the JVM anymore
16:09	holo	minix is as usable as linux? who said it?
16:09	scriptor	"in a perfect world"
16:09	hcumberd`	'In a perfect world', sure we are not there yet
16:09	cemerick	Hardly anyone would use Clojure if it weren't a hosted language
16:10	hcumberd`	Do you know what GNU means?
16:10	hcumberd`	Gnu is Not Usable,... I think
16:10	nDuff	plonk
16:10	hcumberd`	cemerick: what is your definition of a 'hosted language' ?
16:11	holo	">.> is this becoming philosophical?
16:11	cemerick	perhaps
16:12	cemerick	hcumberd`: One that targets an existing, mature runtime
16:13	Raynes	cemerick: I just realized that when I move to LA we'll be a country apart from one another. I'm not sure I can live with the distance.
16:13	cemerick	Raynes: I wonder if that means our schedules will make more or less sense to each other?
16:13	hcumberd`	Raynes & cemerick working for the same company?
16:14	Raynes	No.
16:14	cemerick	Clojure, Inc. :-P
16:14	hcumberd`	;)
16:14	amalloy	i think it means Raynes will be going to bed when cemerick gets up
16:14	cemerick	That happens already
16:14	Raynes	cemerick: About the same, I think. I currently go to bed at 6AM. In LA, I'll go to bed at like 1-2AM.
16:14	Raynes	It comes out to about the same.
16:14	Raynes	amalloy: I already do, pal.
16:15	cemerick	ah, so you're staying constant w.r.t. the east coast
16:15	amalloy	yeah but it'll just be coincidence, not based on peeking in his window
16:15	hcumberd`	cemerick: you do not expect linux/bsd/... to be mature, existing runtimes?
16:15	Raynes	cemerick: I think it'll just work out that way. Not really doing it on purpose, it'll likely just be the natural rhythm I will fall into given the time I have to get into work and stuff.
16:15	cemerick	hcumberd`: Intel microcode is a runtime, too? #silly
16:16	Raynes	When I was in LA for that week working at the office I went to bed between 1-3AM and it all worked out fine.
16:16	cemerick	Has LA gotten better since 1996? That was my last (poor, unfortunately) impression of it.
16:17	Raynes	I think it depends on where you're looking.
16:17	Raynes	I was looking at the ocean, the history, and the hills.
16:17	holo	by the way, i released a fork of korma fixing an ssl lack of support for postgres. this affected heroku users (like me) https://github.com/ccfontes/korma . i posted an answer on stackoverflow, but no one gave me attention :(
16:17	cemerick	Oh, actually, 2001.
16:17	cemerick	Perhaps I've never seen the nicer parts of LA.
16:18	Raynes	lancepantz worked really hard to make me excited and happy about the move and he succeeded.
16:18	cemerick	My experience of CA has largely been defined by Santa Barbara, which, in general, doesn't have any bad parts.
16:18	holo	anyway, if someone needs it urgently, it's available on clojars
16:18	cemerick	Raynes: Yeah, don't let me blunt that. Having locals point you in the right direction is a huge deal.
16:18	Raynes	He showed me thinks I had quite literally never seen before, such as an Ocean, or a lighted cityscape at dusk.
16:18	Raynes	things*
16:18	Raynes	It was all pretty amazing to me.
16:18	amalloy	hah. isla vista is a pretty amazing bad part, cemerick, at least on friday nights
16:20	Raynes	I tried to get amalloy to let me room with him but he wasn't have none of it. He is afraid my sexy will tempt him to make bad decisions.
16:20	Raynes	having*
16:20	Raynes	I suck today.
16:21	hcumberd`	Is the JVM really a better platform than the OS?
16:21	cemerick	amalloy: maybe I missed it. What's so hot around UCSB?
16:21	hcumberd`	Years ago it was really hard to find somebody hosting a jvm for you.
16:22	hcumberd`	The most people sticked to php and mysql because it was available everywhere
16:23	holo	hcumberd`, i heard that making stable, reliable, mature, efficient compilers takes alot of effort and time, so nowadays, some designers host their languages in some existing runtime for practical reasons
16:23	amalloy	i'm not sure i understood the question. just that a college town for a famously party-heavy school is a disaster unless you are such a student. i was exaggerating, i suppose, based on being annoyed by them when i was a quiet sort living on campus
16:23	cemerick	ah-ha
16:25	hcumberd`	holo: clojure->jvm bytecode !! You have to write a compiler, regardless of the underlying parts
16:25	cemerick	I never spent much time up there. My uncle had a place in Goleta for years, which was very nice, and my grandparents used to live on State St. ~3 miles north of downtown.
16:25	cemerick	Fun times.
16:25	gfredericks	technomancy: regarding my config question from hours ago, thanks :)
16:26	gfredericks	I know folk around here tend toward the "slurp a config file!" route, but that still seems like a lot of boilerplate every time I do it
16:26	Raynes	amalloy: You're so quiet. ,3
16:26	Raynes	<3
16:26	cemerick	hcumberd`: re: holo's comment, you can include things like JIT, GC, library ecosystems, etc.
16:26	amalloy	cemerick: santa monica reminds me a lot of santa barbara. so at the very least there are good parts of LA
16:27	nDuff	amalloy: pardon? I was a non-partier at a non-party school, and didn't find such to be troublesome... but then, I'm not sure what the context of that question was. (Perhaps it was a response to something said by someone I have on /ignore?)
16:27	technomancy	amalloy: as the t-shirt says, there is no life east of PCH
16:27	technomancy	there's a narrow strip of habitable territory
16:27	nDuff	err, at a party school
16:28	cemerick	amalloy: oh, I'm sure. I've just never had the pleasure. :-)
16:28	holo	hcumberd`: yes, "library ecosystems": so why your question: Is the JVM really a better platform than the OS? i think you know the answer before you make the question
16:28	hcumberd`	JIT, GC,... are also existing and are reusable if you work with C
16:28	technomancy	C calling conventions are not suitable for a language with GC
16:29	technomancy	any time you cross the boundary between a managed (pleasant to code in) runtime and C, it's a nightmare
16:29	hcumberd`	holo: not to use existing libraries seems to be a bad idea so the JVM has impact
16:29	cemerick	hcumberd`: I think you just went off the reservation :-)
16:29	hcumberd`	But when you have a look at the average java lib quality you might think about it
16:30	hcumberd`	Is LISP an alternative to Clojure+JVM?
16:30	hcumberd`	The library ecosystem seems to be death
16:33	gfredericks	my ERC freenode buffer has a bunch of messages from -yuros- from earlier today claiming that everything I said was bullshit?
16:34	amalloy	gfredericks: maybe that's bullshit too
16:34	gfredericks	I can't handle that much meta
16:34	hiredman	it is irc
16:35	gfredericks	hiredman: I'm not familiar with what it takes to make something appear in the freenode buffer
16:35	gfredericks	unless you were just joking that everything in irc is always bullshit
16:35	hiredman	^-
16:36	cemerick	A good null hypothesis.
16:40	aphyr	cemerick: Is there an easy way to change the default namespace of nrepl.server/start-server?
16:40	cemerick	aphyr: default namespace?
16:40	solussd	b
16:40	aphyr	I'm embedding an nrepl server in an application and would like to give users immediate access to some utility fns
16:41	aphyr	Be cool if I could drop them in a special namespace instead of 'user
16:41	aphyr	Digging through the code, haven't really figured out how that works yet.
16:41	amalloy	pretty sure if you want to give users immediate access to functions when in a repl, that's what the user ns is for
16:42	cemerick	What amalloy said. Refer whatever you want into 'user, and you're done.
16:42	aphyr	Righto.
16:42	aphyr	Wow, lesson learned: do not type (ns) at a repl client, haha
16:43	cemerick	aphyr: FWIW, the 'user default is established for sessions here: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/tools/nrepl/middleware/session.clj#L96
16:44	aphyr	amalloy: managed to hard-lock the whole client, had to background and kill it
16:44	cemerick	aphyr: (ns) just tosses an exception
16:44	amalloy	wat
16:44	cemerick	really
16:44	cemerick	what client?
16:44	aphyr	lein repl :connect localhost:1234
16:44	cemerick	wahoo
16:44	aphyr	Is there a better way? I've also got reply sitting around but it took some classpath munging to start
16:47	cemerick	aphyr: I can't reproduce. (ns) always "works", even when I connect to an existing endpoint with lein repl :connect
16:48	aphyr	user=> (ns)
16:48	aphyr	^CException in thread "SIGINT handler" java.net.SocketException: Broken pipe
16:48	aphyr	... and now I can't reproduce. Yay state!
16:48	cemerick	SIGINT?
16:48	cemerick	Sounds like maybe a bit of reply wackiness
16:48	aphyr	Yeah, from my attempt to ctrl-c after it hung
16:48	cemerick	oh
16:49	aphyr	Immediately prior, I hit a CancellationException when it tried to print a cancelled future
16:49	aphyr	Wonder if that had to do with it...
16:49	pyr	fun fact, a (defprotocol) member with the docstring in the wrong place will silently be discarded from the compiled class
16:50	pyr	(defprotocol Foo (some-fn "i shouldn't be here" [this]))
16:50	aphyr	pyr: Have you discovered fun with multiple-arities yet?
16:51	pyr	aphyr: i.e ?
16:52	aphyr	That defprotocol, defn, and defrecord have different ways of defining multiple-arity functions, and the docstrings go in different orders
16:52	pyr	yup
16:52	pyr	i always mix where the docstrings go, which is how i discovered the silent discarding
16:56	llasram	aphyr: The different multi-arity methods kind of make sense when you think about which ones are defining Java methods (thus different arity == different method) vs storing a single multi-arity fn
16:56	llasram	aphyr: I'm not saying its good, but at least you can puzzle it out
16:59	technomancy	huh: https://mobile.twitter.com/missingfaktor/status/276423303923654656?p=v scala's .net variant is no longer officially maintained
16:59	hcumberd`	wow
16:59	cemerick	The ML thread is amusing.
16:59	cemerick	I hadn't really started to think of .NET as "legacy" yet.
17:00	technomancy	I actually couldn't get to the thread
17:00	technomancy	yay google groups
17:00	brehaut	wait, MS have given up on .net?
17:00	bbloom	evn Microsoft is starting to think of .NET is legacy….
17:00	bbloom	even*
17:00	bbloom	it's not going anywhere anytime soon, but C++ and JavaScript seem to be the preferred platforms for win8
17:01	hcumberd`	C++ is nice ;)
17:01	brehaut	that has got to be almost hte stupidest choice ever
17:01	hcumberd`	JavaScript too
17:01	bbloom	it's a shame really
17:01	cemerick	I haven't read anything about it, but it seems absolutely unthinkable on the face.
17:01	brehaut	bbloom: im surprised im saying this, but hurrah mono i guess
17:01	bbloom	back in the disasterous pre-vista days when longhorn was the codename, devdiv warned windows "don't use .net, it's not ready yet"
17:01	bbloom	but they built a whole OS on .net before it was ready. it was slow and crappy and didn't work at all, burned windows something fierce
17:02	technomancy	haha: "Can I do the actual excision. Pleeeeeeeeeeease."
17:02	bbloom	bigger issue was the hilarious overengineering occuring there
17:02	bbloom	but windows decided to ban .net as a matter of political spite
17:02	bbloom	so when javascript started becoming such a big thing, win8 decided to pick up javascript as sort of the window org's managed language
17:02	hcumberd`	bbloom: .net banned from windows?
17:02	bbloom	not really banned
17:03	hcumberd`	damn bad news for all c# people
17:03	bbloom	this is a hilarious oversimplification
17:03	bbloom	this was YEARS ago
17:03	technomancy	on the bright side google groups seems to have fixed the "you followed a link to a page using the new UI; that must mean you want your default changed" bug
17:03	cemerick	right, typescript.
17:03	bbloom	yeah, so typescript is dev div & microsoft research's play to be able to offer the same c# level of IDE integration/features to javascript
17:03	brehaut	typescript is actually pretty interesting i think
17:03	cemerick	gah
17:03	bbloom	brehaut: yeah, it's actually quite interesting
17:04	hcumberd`	is typescript the new c# ? ;)
17:04	hcumberd`	typescript ~ javascript ?
17:04	bbloom	hcumberd`: not really. javascript is window's c# :-P
17:04	brehaut	typescript is a superset of javascript but with structural static typing
17:04	cemerick	hcumberd`: coffeescript + engineering?
17:04	bbloom	c# (and vb.net) are still great for business apps
17:04	bbloom	c# is a fantastic language, especially compared to java
17:05	bbloom	anyway, typescript is definitely interesting
17:05	aphyr	cemerick: you know what ClassCastException clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Namespace indicates, in tab-completion at the repl?
17:05	hcumberd`	.net is wired ... all the different languanges there VB.net C#.net
17:05	cemerick	except they never got the CLR optimized the way the JVM has been
17:05	bbloom	the google closure compiler, which clojurescript targets, has a type system that is embedded in /** comments */
17:05	bbloom	cemerick: true
17:05	cemerick	aphyr: sounds like an issue with reply and/or clojure-complete
17:05	hcumberd`	But all c# programmers can move over to java
17:06	hcumberd`	the difference is only a little
17:06	hcumberd`	and W8 should support a JVM
17:06	bbloom	hcumberd`: not really, the difference is huge when you consider lambdas, expression trees, linq, etc
17:06	hiredman	hcumberd`: in the surface syntax
17:06	aphyr	Also seeing NoClassDefFoundError Could not initialize class riemann.bin, when trying to tabcomplete (riemann.bin/
17:06	hiredman	but libraries are different, build systems are different, tooling is different
17:06	brehaut	hcumberd`: C# and Java are staggeringly different
17:06	bbloom	anyway, typescript's compiler is pretty young. it only really provides the type checking. google closure compiler is much richer as a compiler, with dead code removal, inlining, constant folding, closure lifting, etc
17:07	hiredman	the clr and the jvm are very different
17:07	hcumberd`	I remembered the C# / .net hype,... gah
17:07	cemerick	bbloom: just a matter of time. I'd welcome some JS optimizing compiler competition, really.
17:07	bbloom	anyone compiling to javascript should study both GClosure and TypeScript
17:07	bbloom	cemerick: agreed
17:08	bbloom	I've been thinking about this a bit because we want to eventaully make CLJS self hosting
17:08	technomancy	the great thing about JS-to-JS compilers is that you don't have to pick just one =D
17:08	bbloom	and if that means no JVM, it means no GClosure
17:08	bbloom	so it would be nice to see alternative type systems for JS
17:08	cemerick	technomancy: if you ping-pong 'em, all apps eventually compress to 3kb of high-value unicode
17:08	technomancy	I wonder how many JS compilers you could chain together before you went insane...
17:08	bbloom	and compare and contrast them
17:09	bbloom	technomancy: the answer is pretty much ONE, unfortunately…. CLJS->JS is sane and debuggable. JS->Advanced Optimized JS is a nightmare to debug
17:09	hcumberd`	Now sharepoint is everywhere,... C# is not used to build modules for it, it's javascript right?
17:09	bbloom	leads to some awkward repl sessions, let me tell you
17:09	bbloom	hcumberd`: C# isn't going away anytime soon
17:10	bbloom	hcumberd`: it still has a huge user base for web services and desktop apps in businesses. C# moves copies of Visual Studio
17:10	technomancy	cemerick: once you hit emojis as identifiers you know it's time to take a break
17:10	brehaut	cemerick: thats fine if you dont want to run on node.js which apparently uses UCS2
17:10	cemerick	brehaut: heh, yeah, saw that one go by :-)
17:11	brehaut	i guess that wont matter for clojurescript
17:11	technomancy	it's really a shame how many of the non-tolkien fictional languages are just for unimaginative transliterations: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/fictional.php
17:11	technomancy	exactly 26 letters, etc
17:12	AimHere	Klingon is pretty decent in that respect
17:12	AimHere	Base 10 numbers though, but I suppose Klingons have an unimaginative 10 digits
17:14	bbloom	from the TypeScript site: "Read the specification in doc or pdf"
17:14	bbloom	entertains me that they even bother with the doc
17:14	bbloom	heh
17:14	brehaut	bbloom: at my last .net job, i wrote tests for 6 months. in doc
17:15	devinus	AimHere: is there a better base than 10 for the universe?
17:15	bbloom	brehaut: like unit tests? or like use case tests?
17:15	brehaut	bbloom: all the tests
17:15	technomancy	AimHere: yeah, it looks like they did their homework on that one
17:15	technomancy	nobody comes close to Tolkien though
17:15	brehaut	going all alan turing and running them on a farm of humans
17:15	amalloy	10 is the only reasonable base
17:16	bbloom	devinus: I think we should invent 6 more digit characters and transition everybody over to hex… but i'll settle for america adopting the kilometer
17:16	brehaut	technomancy: being an actual linguist pays of ehh
17:16	technomancy	brehaut: a linguist with lots of free time =)
17:16	cemerick	brehaut: that's pretty awesome
17:16	brehaut	technomancy: ah, a professor of linguistics
17:16	llasram	technomancy: Being a linguist (well, I think still philologist, but anyway) definitely appears to increase the quality of the constructed languages you invent
17:17	bbloom	brehaut: cringe
17:17	brehaut	cemerick: it would have been more awesome if the farm of humans was not just me
17:17	cemerick	The last job I had had a QA person that ran through two binders of printed tests before each release.
17:17	hcumberd`	if you create interfaces (html/css/js) how do you do the layout?
17:18	brehaut	hcumberd`: in a pool of tears
17:18	hcumberd`	What components do you use in general? I've seen the JQuery UI things
17:18	hcumberd`	brehaut: ;)
17:18	AimHere	llasram > How do you explain Perl then?
17:19	hcumberd`	brehaut: table layout + I <3 java.util.Calendar
17:19	brehaut	cemerick: i think i know what the stockholm syndrome feels like
17:19	technomancy	this one looks legit too: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/dni.htm
17:19	hcumberd`	Remembering tshirts ;)
17:19	cemerick	brehaut: it's particularly pernicious when you're getting paid by 'em
17:19	llasram	AimHere: Huh. I did not know that. Well. That explains... something?
17:20	bbloom	one other interesting bit about TypeScript: It exposes "services" for IDEs. C#, VB, and F# are getting comparable services too. these are like clojurescript's analyzer in that you can use them as libraries to understand and manipulate source code. interestingly, however, these are "live" services in that they do stuff like incremental compilation and error recovery so they can provide IDE features while you're working like red squiggly underlines. the
17:20	bbloom	architecture is probably worth studying
17:21	bbloom	and, gloriously, the project uses git: https://git01.codeplex.com/typescript
17:22	brehaut	hcumberd`: table layouts are also known as "Im too lazy to actually learn how this technology works, so im going to hack it and then 6 months later when i have an unmamagable pile of excrement, i'm going to go onto twitter and bitch about how bad CSS is"
17:23	hcumberd`	brehaut: you made my day
17:24	bbloom	brehaut: CSS is bad… at application layout use cases
17:24	bbloom	hence the various proposals to fix that
17:24	brehaut	bbloom: oh yeah, dont get me wrong. CSS can be an utter nightmare, but i do get sick of people who never bothered to learn it bitching about it
17:24	hcumberd`	bbloom: render .png images with the whole page
17:24	hcumberd`	fixes all layout errors
17:24	hcumberd`	looks the same in all browsers
17:25	bbloom	hcumberd`: and it's a perfectly reasonable strategy for a very large number of use cases!
17:25	hcumberd`	that's the future, I'm sure. Just like windows 2000
17:25	cemerick	s/png/svg
17:25	cemerick	fixed that for you
17:25	bbloom	as long as you have copy pastable text over it :-P
17:25	Kowboy	my WYSYWIG editor is Photoshop
17:25	brehaut	my wysiwyg editor is nano; i serve all my pages as text
17:26	hcumberd`	I'll just write XML directly to the browser 4 better user experience
17:26	hcumberd`	my wysiwyg editor is emacs
17:27	brehaut	hcumberd`: the long version re:layout is that theres no one solution anyone can recommend because it depends hugely on the application. its a case of whackamoling the suck of JS libs to find one that suits
17:27	hcumberd`	I'm happy with emacs as operating system
17:28	holo	how can i highlight the exceptions thrown from forms implemented inside the project root?
17:28	holo	i mean highlight with a color e.g.
17:30	nDuff	Anyone know offhand if squarepeg supports left recursion?
17:38	mthvedt	nduff: skimming the source, doesn't look like it
17:38	nDuff	Hrm.
17:39	bbloom	nDuff: I looked around for a OMeta-inspired parser for clojure and wasn't too happy with what i found
17:39	mthvedt	i don't trust this library… the author thinks pegs are a superset of CFGs
17:39	bbloom	lots of decidedly un-clojury libraries
17:40	mthvedt	i'm working on what i hope is a clojurey CFG library
17:40	jballanc	someone should just port Ian Piumarta's peg/leg to clojure
17:40	mthvedt	i wouldn't recommend it for anything important in its current state however
17:41	bbloom	mthvedt: publish a gist or refheap or something and maybe some folks will give you some feedback on the API
17:41	bbloom	i was looking for something where the grammar is just data maybe with a nice macro on top for the common use cases, but everything seemed extremely applicative style
17:42	mthvedt	bbloom: https://github.com/mthvedt/clearley#example
17:42	bbloom	mthvedt: looks interesting
17:43	bbloom	why does each line of the rule have an extra set of () ?
17:43	hcumberd`	How to render nice charts in clojure? Or better in Javascript?
17:43	bbloom	hcumberd`: lynaghk is working on some stuff
17:44	bbloom	hcumberd`: he's the clj visualization pro. try his http://keminglabs.com/c2/ project or talk to him about c2po
17:44	hcumberd`	already available on github?
17:45	hcumberd`	wow, that's nice
17:45	hcumberd`	Does clojurescript work well with JQuery/JQueryUI/JQueryMobile ?
17:45	mthvedt	bbloom: those are parse action bodies
17:45	mthvedt	oh
17:45	mthvedt	i see what you mean
17:45	AimHere	For javascript, there's d3.js, which I think lynaghk originally tried to clojurify
17:45	bbloom	mthvedt: yea, but they seem to always be pairs
17:46	mthvedt	bbloom: i think i wanted something similar to clojure defn for multiple arities
17:47	bbloom	'{sum [[sum \+ term] (+ sum term), [sum \- term] (- sum term), [term] term]}
17:47	bbloom	where the commas are new lines
17:47	bbloom	similar to let bindings
17:47	bbloom	and defrule could just be syntactical sugar
17:48	technomancy	huh; I didn't realize the Elm guy works at google
17:48	mthvedt	that's more or less what the grammar data structure looks like under the hood
17:48	bbloom	mthvedt: expose the data structure :-)
17:49	bbloom	mthvedt: pegs enable composable grammars!
17:49	mthvedt	hope to do that when i'm done :P
17:49	bbloom	i want to be able to (apply merge grammars)
17:49	bbloom	:-)
17:49	mthvedt	bbloom: pegs are not composable in the sense that if you have grammar g1 describing language l1, and g2 describing l2
17:50	mthvedt	that g1 * g2 describes l1 * l2
17:50	bbloom	mthvedt: i know, i was (sorta) kidding
17:50	bbloom	but if the production names are symbols with namespaces, then you COULD merge them
17:50	bbloom	but you still need to insert rules to allow embedding the grammars
17:51	brehaut	pltgames.com looks like it could be fun over the holiday period
17:51	bbloom	so after (apply merge grammars) you could (insert-rule grammar 'lang-a/foo … 'lang-b/bar …)
17:52	mthvedt	that's a good idea
17:52	bbloom	i wasn't at the conj, but somebody told me that the rally cry was "DATA ALL THE THINGS"
17:53	technomancy	bbloom: that wasn't just this conj =)
17:53	cemerick	I think there were at least four slides with that exact meme on them
17:53	clojurebot	qcon slides is http://qconlondon.com/london-2009/file?path=/qcon-london-2009/slides/RichHickey_PersistentDataStructuresAndManagedReferences.pdf
17:54	cemerick	A couple with that odd stick figure with a match as well
17:54	bbloom	clojurebot: that is a completely unrelated, but entirely useful link
17:54	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:54	bbloom	clojurebot: i have no idea what that means.
17:54	clojurebot	your idea of vars, symbols, and scoping is wackadoodle
17:54	bbloom	lol
17:54	bbloom	~botsnack
17:54	technomancy	cemerick: the author of that comic goes to the coffee shop I usually work from
17:54	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
17:55	brehaut	haha i fear that one might have been my fault somehow
17:55	cemerick	technomancy: oh? I figured it was a 4chan thing
17:56	brehaut	cemerick: is that necessarily mutually exclusive?
17:56	technomancy	cemerick: http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/ <- grep for coffee
17:56	cemerick	I am forever hopelessly behind on internet memes and slang.
17:56	brehaut	thats why we have technomancy
17:56	bbloom	cemerick: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-all-the-y
17:56	technomancy	brehaut: not memes, just comics
17:57	technomancy	anyway this place has an espresso blend named after her
17:57	brehaut	technomancy: oh. i had just assumed funny pictures in general
17:57	amalloy	technomancy: oh, you run into allie at the coffee shop? so she hasn't like, crawled into a hole to die?
17:59	technomancy	amalloy: I haven't met her yet, I just keep noticing "Allie's Extreme Laser Blend" and the owner mentioned her once
17:59	technomancy	I did meet the Oatmeal at my other favourite coffee shop,
17:59	technomancy	(which is almost the same thing)
18:00	brehaut	I have not been to a coffeeshop with multiple blends in a long time
18:00	bbloom	well if she lives in seattle, maybe it explains why her blog talks about her being depressed for no reason
18:00	bbloom	i'm moving out of this city because i just can't take the gray winters any more....
18:01	technomancy	dunno, I got depressed living in LA because it never rained or had clouds.
18:01	bbloom	heh. are you from seattle?
18:01	bbloom	i know you live here now
18:01	technomancy	I grew up in the tropics
18:01	brehaut	solution: all clojurists should move to new zealand and we can have conj '13 here
18:02	technomancy	I still really miss warm rain
18:02	dsantiago	technomancy: Where in the tropics?
18:03	technomancy	dsantiago: Indonesia
18:03	cemerick	technomancy: surprised you didn't end up in Boston, where every single kind of possible weather can be experienced. :-P
18:03	dsantiago	Ah. Interesting that Seattle suits you better than LA.
18:04	technomancy	couple years in LA and I discovered "The Golden State" is a euphemism for "it's mostly brown"
18:04	technomancy	cemerick: but I'm a wimp when it comes to the cold
18:04	Raynes	technomancy: You're killing my moving-to-LA buzz.
18:04	technomancy	3-4 snowy days a year is just perfect for me
18:05	technomancy	Raynes: it's not so bad if you don't stray more than a few hundred meters from the water =)
18:05	technomancy	can't afford to do that with a family though
18:05	dsantiago	Raynes: As I always say, LA sucks, don't move here.
18:05	cemerick	technomancy: Heh, Bostonites are a bit wimpy. Head two hours west or north, then you'll start seeing real winter.
18:05	Raynes	technomancy: I plan to live in a Submarine.
18:05	Raynes	dsantiago: Shush.
18:06	technomancy	dsantiago: it was worse when I was there since the only tech jobs were in entertainment or defense
18:06	Raynes	dsantiago: You know you want me there. Life is meaningless without me.
18:06	brehaut	seriously guys: new zealand
18:06	cemerick	If you aren't accumulating icicles in your eyebrows, you're doing it wrong.
18:06	brehaut	you can live by the beach for cheap
18:06	technomancy	I drove across town for a Ruby meetup with a friend and when we arrived there was one other guy
18:06	brehaut	and still be relatively close to snow
18:06	dsantiago	Raynes: My point is, the biggest problems in LA are there are too many people here.
18:06	Raynes	Can't we kick a few out when I get there to make room?
18:07	cemerick	brehaut: Sounds nice, but aren't the clamps required to keep from falling off the bottom of the world a drag?
18:07	technomancy	dsantiago: I thought the root problem was the idea that building a city in the middle of the desert could even work?
18:07	dsantiago	That's what you didn't like about LA?
18:07	hiredman	cemerick: and the expense for helmets to avoid dropbear concussions? forget about it
18:07	Raynes	Las Vegas works.
18:07	brehaut	cemerick: nah, most of us who were born here develop really strong toes
18:07	technomancy	dsantiago: I was further inland
18:08	brehaut	hiredman: theres a ditch between us and the drop bears; its roughly as wide as cali is long.
18:08	cemerick	dsantiago: LA has nothing on NYC re: population; whatever problems there are, it can't be that
18:08	dsantiago	cemerick: Yeah, but Nyc copes with it better with public transport and dense urbanness. LA is a sprawling suburban city of just as many people and the main transport is cars.
18:09	hiredman	brehaut: I choose to believe that the wild wallabies released in to the wild in new zealand have become drop bears through covergent evolution
18:09	dsantiago	I mean, NYC has its own problems as well of course. Obviously I prefer LA overall.
18:09	brehaut	hiredman: thats a terrifying thought
18:10	nDuff	...prefer... LA?!
18:10	cemerick	hiredman: when I emerge from the wikipedia tour that this dropbear lookup will surely provoke, I shall curse you.
18:10	zodiak	hey! LA is an awesome city
18:10	dsantiago	nDuff: Good! Don't move here!
18:10	zodiak	at least in LA, if people don't like you, you know it. Unlike SF
18:10	Raynes	zodiak: That's what I'm talking about!
18:10	hiredman	"Drop bears are commonly said to be unusually large, vicious, carnivorous koalas"
18:10	nDuff	zodiak: that's true. Can't say I'm a fan of SF either.
18:11	zodiak	LA is honest, brutally so, jst don't drive and stick near either Venice/Culver City/Santa Monica or out near the foothills (Arcadia etc)
18:11	nDuff	...last time I hired someone from LA, he took a long vacation after his best friend was killed in a drive-by.
18:11	zodiak	ouch!
18:11	cemerick	SF appears to be a large dumpster out of which people have built a city.
18:11	zodiak	yeah.. you don't want to try to drive across town for a job in LA. that's a fair point.
18:12	technomancy	I have some friends still there who do that, and it's kind of sad
18:13	zodiak	ouch, yeah, I tried to commute between Arcadia and Santa Monica a while back. 2 hours one way (worst case).
18:13	zodiak	not good.
18:13	dsantiago	Yikes.
18:14	brehaut	◎_◎
18:14	brehaut	my longest commute has been 40 minutes on foot
18:14	brehaut	i cannot fathom driving for 2 hours a day
18:15	muhoo	cemerick: wow, really?
18:15	zodiak	brehaut, well, sometimes it was 4 hours :(
18:15	brehaut	zodiak: i literally cannot fathom that
18:15	nDuff	(also, flatness, population density, aggressive bike/ped plans...)
18:15	dsantiago	nDuff: Just moved to LA from Chicago earlier this year.
18:15	zodiak	nDuff, chicago is not bad, but yeah, you want to live near the workplace. move if you have to ;)
18:16	brehaut	admittedly the entire population of new zealand is smaller many american cities
18:16	technomancy	I was on the train an hour each way for a couple years in high school and swore never again.
18:16	zodiak	brehaut, it was.. brutal. I won't lie.
18:16	technomancy	even then, the train is way better than driving
18:17	nDuff	...but another 30min would be fine. I mean, some time with reading material / personal electronics is pleasant or productive, depending on what one's doing.
18:18	technomancy	I could do 30 min if it's a straight shot
18:19	technomancy	transfers wreck any chance at concentration though
18:19	nDuff	nod.
18:19	nDuff	A few of the potential post-move job leads I have in mind are telecommute, which would make the commute only to the most conveniently-located coworking space.
18:26	technomancy	nDuff: that's what IRC is for =)
18:26	Bergle_1	ooh a lighttable update.
18:28	ivaraasen	technomancy: an hour each way must have been really painful
18:29	technomancy	ivaraasen: I'm sure lots of people even in here go further
18:32	ivaraasen	technomancy: a friend of mine used to commute 1100 kilometers, although not daily
18:32	technomancy	well when I was in Singapore I literally commuted from one end of the country to the other
18:33	ivaraasen	intense
18:36	ivaraasen	I will probably be living 1.5k kilometers from where I'm going to work myself. luckily it's a two-four system, so you get four weeks off after working two weeks
18:39	ivaraasen	nDuff: due to hitting enter and having open parentheses?
18:40	nDuff	I haven't noticed myself making that mistake.
18:40	nDuff	...it happens when executing complete, functional lines -- they eval, but print a bunch of whitespace after them.
18:40	nDuff	...sometimes.
18:44	[1]abp	Can I somehow find all the ubound symbols in a given body of code with a macro? i.e. (some-macro (let [a 1] (+ a x)) finds x to be not bound in that context.
19:00	cemerick	muhoo: really, what?
19:10	seangrove	What's the best way to get a remote repl in cljs?
19:11	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/nrepl-cljs-middleware https://github.com/hiredman/drawbridge-cljs
19:11	hiredman	depends what you mean by remote repl
19:13	seangrove	hiredman: Yes, on reflection, I just meant 'repl' :)
19:13	seangrove	Checking out drawbridge
19:14	brehaut	afternoon talios
19:14	talios	'lo
19:16	talios	brehaut - hows the weather your end of the world?
19:16	brehaut	talios: dark and thunderous
19:17	brehaut	bucketing down? better in orcland?
19:17	talios	I have fog and torrents of rain, but no thunder/lightening yet
19:17	talios	tornado out henderson just ripped up damage
19:17	brehaut	hurrah summer!
19:17	brehaut	far out, again?
19:18	talios	brehaut - http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10852307
19:18	brehaut	climate change is a bitch
19:19	brehaut	ha
19:19	Norgelys	hola
19:20	talios	hail!
19:21	brehaut	here that americans? you could be missing out on weather like this if you're country had summer now too
19:22	holo	brehaut, that sound like chinglish
19:22	brehaut	english is my first language
19:22	brehaut	im just really bad at it
19:23	holo	oh.. sorry. i thought you were quoting some funny sentence
19:23	brehaut	nope, that was all my failure
19:23	brehaut	as soon as i pressed enter i realised i had written a disaster
19:23	holo	>.>
19:24	seangrove	"I had written a disaster"
19:24	seangrove	Very nice :)
19:25	talios	brehaut - damn, just heard from a co-worker there was a fatality from the tornado
19:25	holo	brehaut, so that's why the preference for low syntax languages :)
19:25	seangrove	Hrm, I'm in a rhino-cljs repl using nrepl.el - how do I get out of the cljs repl and back to clj?
19:25	brehaut	talios: shit :(
19:25	talios	brehaut - not public knowledge but was on the fire-radio ( he's a volunteer firedude/marshall whatever)
19:26	brehaut	talios: well, its on the internet now
19:26	talios	DELETE^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hshit
19:27	seangrove	cljs.user> :cljs/quit => :cljs/quit
19:27	seangrove	Type `:cljs/quit` to stop the ClojureScript REPL
19:27	seangrove	Not quite, I think...
19:27	brehaut	talios: stuff is reporting 2 dead
19:27	Norgelys	hello
19:29	talios	brehaut - i thought clojure was your first language
19:29	brehaut	lol
19:30	cemerick	brehaut: didn't you hear? We get shit like that, then a blizzard the next weekend.
19:30	talios	cemerick - then move to NZ with us - NO BLIZZARDS!
19:30	talios	bliss
19:31	brehaut	we have snow too
19:31	brehaut	just not where talios is
19:31	talios	damnit WE HAD SNOW LAST YEAR
19:31	brehaut	what, really‽
19:31	brehaut	in auckland?
19:31	cemerick	You can't be a flinty New Englander without being thinking that snowshoeing in 0ºF is a good time.
19:31	talios	technically it wasn't snow ( http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10745187 )
19:32	cemerick	talios: how are things your way?
19:32	brehaut	cemerick: from the part of New Zealand im from we have snow but not snowshoes. its more a case of falling on your arse a lot
19:33	cemerick	oh, we have that too :-D
19:33	Norgelys	por q ablan ingles
19:34	cemerick	The first morning after I bought the titanium macbook pro (~2002, I think?), I slipped on my way out to the car and landed on the damn thing. Torqued the case but good.
19:35	lynaghk	brehaut: are you still based in New Zealand? I'll be there for all of January and wouldn't mind meeting up with some Clojure folks.
19:35	talios	cemerick - things are good, just wet :)
19:35	brehaut	lynaghk: talios and I both are
19:36	talios	lynaghk - awesome - Auckland here - you can join us for a podcast :)
19:36	talios	of course - I'll have to kidnap and coerce brehaut into joining as well
19:36	brehaut	haha
19:36	lynaghk	brehaut, talios: I would love to do that! I'll be there (in Auckland) towards the end of December. talios, mind if I email you?
19:37	talios	lynaghk - sure - mark @ talios.com
19:37	brehaut	lynaghk: end of dec/jan is a pretty busy but id be open to doing something
19:38	lynaghk	cool! I'll ping you both. Nothing like esoteric programming languages to make new friends around the world =)
19:38	talios	I'm heading to Napier end of december and first week of Jan ( back on the 4th )
19:38	talios	and back eve
19:38	talios	even
19:38	brehaut	talios: if we could organise something in the CBD its much easier for me to make it as i can just grab a bus both ways
19:38	seangrove	Getting an error trying to use cemerick's piggieback cljs-repl: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7331
19:39	cemerick	seangrove: I think that's an old ClojureScript bug. What rev are you using?
19:39	talios	any one know if La Clojure has been updated for IntelliJ IDEA 12 at all?
19:39	cemerick	La Clojure is deadpooled as far as anyone can tell.
19:40	cemerick	oh, lookit that, it's on github now
19:41	seangrove	Let me check... using cljsbuild 0.2.9 which I believe is tied to a specific version of cljs
19:41	cemerick	talios: Looks like 12 compat is on master: https://github.com/JetBrains/la-clojure/commits/master?page=2
19:41	talios	cemerick - yeh - coworker just mentioned that, it gets compat updates but no real improvement/features
19:41	cemerick	ah
19:42	cemerick	well, perhaps that's where the abandonware impression I've heard about from various people (incl. you now) comes from
19:42	brehaut	talios: ram is cheap, just run ccw/eclipse as well :P
19:43	talios	mmmm, can I run a headless eclipse/ccw via Idea
19:43	cemerick	buh?
19:43	cemerick	sounds like eclim
19:43	cemerick	(which doesn't work on OS X :-(
19:44	talios	eclim yeh :) I'm sure we could write a IDEA wrapper
19:44	talios	oh really? poo
19:44	seangrove	Is cljsbuild 0.2.9 pretty far behind Clojurescript at this point?
19:45	cemerick	seangrove: no, but it's not tied to anything
19:45	cemerick	it uses whatever is set in :dependencies
19:45	cemerick	I have no idea what its default is though
19:45	seangrove	Ah, so there's a way to easily get cljsbuild to use a different version of cljs?
19:46	brehaut	im not sure i understand what a headless eclipse would be?
19:46	cemerick	just as a dependency, as with any other clojure lib
19:46	cemerick	brehaut: eclipse that you interop with to drive another environment (e.g. gvim)
19:46	clojurebot	Something weird that I noticed: & (use '[clojure.contrib.json :as json]) & &\| (json/pprint-json nil) \|&
19:46	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: json
19:47	aamar	Is clojuredocs still being maintained?
19:51	technomancy	aamar: there is work underway on a replacement
19:51	technomancy	or next-gen version I guess
19:52	technomancy	the backend is all there but they need someone to do the web UI
19:52	muhoo	cemerick: hatin' on SF?
19:52	aamar	technomancy: cool, good to hear. Are they looking for help?
19:52	technomancy	aamar: I believe so
19:53	cemerick	muhoo: SF is okay; just not particularly clean when I was there
19:53	technomancy	aamar: actually just join #clojure-doc
19:54	aamar	technomancy: cool, thanks as always!
19:54	technomancy	sure thing. it would be great to get some movement on that front.
19:54	technomancy	and to get off rails =\
19:55	muhoo	cemerick: the wind blows litter around, true. but for dirty, i grew up around NYC, and nowhere in california is as dirty as i remember manhattan or da bronx being.
19:55	technomancy	a number of the sidewalks there smell like poo
19:55	cemerick	where, there?
19:55	qubit[01]	whats SF ?
19:55	technomancy	in SF that is
19:55	muhoo	dog piss, actually. the last months of summer before the rains start.
19:55	cemerick	yeah, that was my impression
19:56	qubit[01]	theres a good joke in here
19:56	technomancy	muhoo: pretty sure some of it is human =(
19:56	muhoo	oh, heroku office is in SOMA ? :-)
19:56	muhoo	yeah, that'd be human.
19:56	cemerick	SF reminds me of NYC when we visited there ~1985/86
19:57	muhoo	it doesn't rain all summer. by october, it can get bestial. rains come and clean everything up.
19:57	qubit[01]	, (define bestial)
19:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: define in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:57	cemerick	Manhattan is really wonderful. Never had the pleasure of the bronx, tho.
19:57	muhoo	i see what's going on. tech guys, visiting moscone, SOMA, market st, mission, TL, that's the grimer areas
19:58	technomancy	muhoo: yeah I don't understand the mindset that makes those go hand-in-hand
19:58	muhoo	cheap rent, i'd suppose.
19:59	muhoo	s/cheap/not-quite-so-outrageous/
19:59	technomancy	maybe for the really early-stage startups
19:59	technomancy	which I guess set the trends for the more established ones =)
19:59	muhoo	exactly. it acquires a hipster patina. if you want the good people, you got to roll with that.
20:00	technomancy	someone told me it's the same reason low-slung pants became hip
20:00	technomancy	because when you get out of prison they don't give you your belt back
20:00	brehaut	lol
20:00	technomancy	and everyone wants to emulate the gangsters
20:00	qubit[01]	bestial, patina - I want to learn from you
20:00	muhoo	qubit[01]: i have nothing on technomancy in terms of erudition
20:01	technomancy	except in SF it's quaffing ramen instead
20:01	qubit[01]	good lord
20:01	technomancy	heh
20:01	brehaut	'ramen' is american for instant noodles right?
20:02	technomancy	japanese, actually
20:02	muhoo	brehaut: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramen
20:02	brehaut	technomancy: that makes more sense
20:02	muhoo	shit, now i'm hungry
20:03	brehaut	muhoo: the pictures in that article look like real food. is that what people mean when they talk about eating ramen at startups, or do they just mean noodles and broth?
20:04	muhoo	probably mean packaged instant version, yes. very, very cheap.
20:04	muhoo	college food
20:04	muhoo	sorry, uni :-)
20:04	qubit[01]	noodles and broth, many a college nights
20:04	brehaut	muhoo: haha thanks :)
20:05	berdario	Hello, I'm trying to understand what's the best way to debug code under clojure
20:05	berdario	something along the lines of python's pdb
20:05	brehaut	muhoo: my first year of uni was largely instant noodle and crap coffee fuelled
20:05	berdario	I'm looking at cdt, but it doesn't have any installation instructions
20:05	seangrove	Is there a way to get this to work? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7335
20:06	seangrove	(< min value max), given that min or max could be nil
20:06	technomancy	berdario: if you can work mostly in terms of referentially-transparent functions you don't need a debugger
20:06	amalloy	brehaut: ramen in america usually means instant ramen, but there are actual reputable ramen restaurants as well
20:06	seangrove	I could put the three in a list, filter for nil, and then pass it to <, I suppose
20:06	technomancy	that said, there are definitely times that's not feasible.
20:06	berdario	I guess I could try to add it to a project.clj, but this code doesn't have one
20:07	technomancy	berdario: it seems like ritz is the most polished option for debugging
20:07	brehaut	seangrove: you could apply defaults for :min and :max in your desctructuring
20:07	berdario	technomancy: I need to traverse the stack
20:07	seangrove	brehaut: Ah, yes, that's much better, thank you
20:07	berdario	technomancy: thanks, I'll look into that
20:07	technomancy	berdario: you mean examining locals all the way up? pretty sure ritz does that.
20:07	berdario	technomancy: btw... maybe you can also suggest me a better approach this time
20:07	technomancy	swank-clojure has it too
20:08	berdario	I'm looking at the clojurescript sources
20:08	brehaut	seangrove: also, :keys [min max]
20:08	berdario	and I cannot find where closure/-compile is defined
20:08	technomancy	berdario: sorry; never used clojurescript
20:08	berdario	(I tried a grep over the whole sources)
20:08	brehaut	{:keys [min max] :or {min 0 :max 10}} for instance
20:08	brehaut	seangrove: ^
20:09	seangrove	brehaut: Ah, perfect, I was just googling for the syntax
20:09	seangrove	I can never remember the syntax for default arguments
20:09	brehaut	http://clojure.org/special_forms#binding-forms ;; seangrove
20:09	berdario	technomancy: ok, but it's still clojure code... do you have any idea of why the declaration might not pop up anywhere?
20:09	technomancy	it's really not
20:09	berdario	technomancy: clojurescript it's implemented in clojure
20:10	seangrove	brehaut: Thanks
20:10	berdario	technomancy: I'm not interested in clojurescript code: I'm interested in the clojure code that compiles the clojurescript code
20:10	technomancy	yeah, but closure is a javascript compiler
20:10	berdario	technomancy: I know, but there's a closure.clj file... and I can't find a -compile inside of it
20:13	arohner	technomancy: when do you expect the next lein2 release?
20:13	technomancy	arohner: depends on how long it takes the new clojars releases to get reasonably populated
20:13	technomancy	I haven't looked at the numbers since the conj
20:14	brehaut	technomancy: new clojars is available somewhere?
20:14	technomancy	brehaut: yeah, no real docs though =\
20:14	arohner	technomancy: oh? the next lein will break people downloading from old clojars?
20:14	technomancy	http://releases.clojars.org/
20:14	berdario	ugh, ritz doesn't have any documentation :/
20:15	berdario	maybe ritz-nrepl is what I'm looking for?
20:15	technomancy	arohner: it will change the default, yeah. using the old repo will require explicitly declaring it
20:15	brehaut	technomancy: do library developers need to do anything specific to publish to it?
20:15	technomancy	brehaut: due to some horrible concurrency bugs surrounding sqlite the process is currently manual =(
20:16	brehaut	technomancy: its almost like you said SQLite there but i must have misheard
20:16	technomancy	wasn't my idea =(
20:16	technomancy	brehaut: if you log in and view a jar you own you can either click "promote" or it will show a list of reasons it's not qualified for promotion
20:17	brehaut	technomancy: is hall do that then
20:17	brehaut	oh boy. lots of badness
20:17	technomancy	that'd be tops
20:18	brehaut	im a little surprised that its not pulling me up for having a project with an implicit group id
20:18	technomancy	that's standard issue for clojars
20:19	technomancy	it should probably yell at you if you try to promote an org.clojars.* group-id though
20:19	brehaut	technomancy: real question is, should i be fixing that
20:19	technomancy	not unless it's a name that's likely to conflict
20:20	technomancy	please don't do this: https://github.com/amitrathore/conjure
20:20	brehaut	technomancy: mind if PM you?
20:20	technomancy	sure
20:21	muhoo	you're running sqlite multi-threaded? :-O
20:22	technomancy	muhoo: apparently it's not a problem inherent in sqlite, just in the jdbc adapter
20:22	technomancy	you can have concurrent access as long as it's from a single process
20:23	basicsensei	what am I missing when I use :aot [memorystone.s] in project.clj and lein jar includes everything as .class including all project dependencies and every project namespace
20:23	basicsensei	(with some lein2 from master)
20:23	basicsensei	(in other words it's like :aot :all)
20:24	hiredman	:aot is transitive
20:24	technomancy	basicsensei: the clojure compiler doesn't support AOTing a namespace without AOTing what it requires
20:24	hiredman	so anythign you require, or cause to be loaded in some other way (including code from other libraries) will be be emitted as class files to disk
20:25	technomancy	basicsensei: leiningen includes some mechanism for deleting those after compilation (see `lein help sample`) but there is no way to avoid compiling them
20:26	basicsensei	alright, so even if I'm not explicitly using the project dependencies in any way in that namespace (in :aot) ie. if I just have (ns memorystone.s) then some prn it will still want to include those dependencies
20:26	basicsensei	ok I'll take a look at that thanks
20:27	talios	really should add support for automatically cleaning them up to the maven plugin - been meaning to do that for ages
20:27	technomancy	talios: it breaks pretty wretchedly with protocols and records
20:27	hiredman	basicsensei: no, that should not be the case
20:27	technomancy	talios: clojure can't fall back to the JITted version of protocols like it can for regular defns
20:27	talios	technomancy - ug yay
20:28	basicsensei	lein help sample shows this line "../../../sample.project.clj"
20:28	technomancy	I had it on by default for one release and didn't notice it because I don't use protocols; that didn't last long
20:28	technomancy	basicsensei: uh oh. are you running a release or from source?
20:28	talios	you don't use protocols? interesting
20:28	hiredman	basicsensei: if all you have in the file is (ns memorystone.s (:gen-class)) (def -main [& _] (println "hello world")) it should not generate class files for anything else
20:28	talios	just not of use in what your using, or some other reason?
20:28	basicsensei	technomancy: it's a compiled as .jar master (not latest though)
20:29	basicsensei	hiredman: I'll (re)check that
20:29	technomancy	basicsensei: on Windows?
20:30	basicsensei	technomancy: yes
20:30	technomancy	talios: well I don't have any need for writing polymorphic functions
20:31	basicsensei	hiredman: I have the feeling that I'm missing a prior lein clean?
20:31	technomancy	basicsensei: ok, in that case it's a known bug
20:31	technomancy	shouldn't be an issue on a stable release
20:31	basicsensei	oh
20:32	technomancy	or at least, when I do need polymorphism it's not dispatched on the class of the first argument.
20:32	basicsensei	hiredman: you were right it works as you said, I just had to lein clean
20:35	basicsensei	excellent that's what I was really missing in my first question: lein do clean, jar
20:35	basicsensei	what I had was leftovers from :aot :all
20:39	berdario	I still haven't a debugger
20:39	berdario	but I realized just now that I could've done (source closure/-compile)
20:40	basicsensei	can aot a gen-class implementing a class which has since been recompiled? getting IncompatibleClassChangeError
20:41	seangrove	hm, how can I have js->clj make keywords from the strings?
20:41	basicsensei	ie. I have this :implements [org.bukkit.plugin.java.JavaPlugin] but JavaPlugin appears to be newer when my code gets executed, ie. maybe it's not the same one that I had in project dependencies
20:43	berdario	nrepl-ritz is calling the wrong shell -_-
20:46	holo	random remark: it seems a defmulti- there is not :(
20:48	brainproxy	holo: you can still mark it private, just a sec, finding the syntax
20:49	holo	hi brainproxy! thank you again
20:49	brainproxy	holo: (defmulti ^:private ...)
20:49	holo	oh, that's cool
20:50	basicsensei	awesome
20:50	brainproxy	same thing can be done with plain def, since there's no def-
20:50	holo	greatness
21:07	basicsensei	are we expected to use clojure classloader to load a gen-class that implemented a java class? I wonder if that's why it fails with IncompatibleClassChangeError or is something else I'm missing
21:20	aphyr	What's the best way to extract a line number from a LispReader$ReaderException?
21:21	aphyr	Am I really supposed to use reflection hacks?
21:29	technomancy	aphyr: I think in 1.5 it uses ex-info but no idea before that
22:16	gfredericks	is 4clojure open-source?
22:17	bbloom	gfredericks: read the home page
22:17	gfredericks	that has got to be my most blatantly unresearched question ever.
22:17	brehaut	https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure
22:17	bbloom	hence the blatant RTFM equivalent response
22:18	gfredericks	totally appropriate
22:18	jyu	hello
22:18	gfredericks	brehaut should be ashamed of himself for not being more dismissive
22:18	brehaut	gfredericks: i cant answer the hard questions, so i take what i can get
22:18	jyu	is it possible to figure out the code coverage along with midje
22:21	gfredericks	dangit now I need to learn about mongo.
22:22	brehaut	gfredericks: i have a video about that somewhere
22:23	muhoo	hahahaha
22:23	muhoo	something about it being web scale?
22:23	brehaut	that'd be it
22:23	brehaut	two bears having an informative discussion
22:23	gfredericks	those bears have an awful lot of informative discussions
22:23	muhoo	i weep for the damage that has been done to the reputation of that product by that hilarious video.
22:23	brehaut	haha
22:24	muhoo	it's probably a really good product. but so hard to take seriously now without willfully putting that video out of my mind.