#clojure – 2012-12-02

2012-12-02

01:40	Sgeo	Is there already a library providing Lamina with a monadic interface?
01:40	Sgeo	If not, I'll go write one
01:56	tomoj	Sgeo: I haven't seen one. what would you get out of it, `for` for channels, and anything much more?
01:56	Sgeo	Well, currently only going to do result-channels
01:56	Sgeo	But I think `for` for result-channels is a cool thing
01:57	Sgeo	lift is pretty good too, but Lamina might have that already, I didn't check
02:39	tomoj	Sgeo: lamina sort of already has that I think?
02:39	tomoj	oh, no, it got removed in the perf branch iirc
02:39	Sgeo	o.O what was it?
02:40	tomoj	the async macro
02:40	tomoj	(async (let [x a-result-ch y b-result-ch] [x y]))
02:42	tomoj	cljque's `on`
02:42	tomoj	except `async` did more, e.g. I think (async (f a-result-ch)) passed the result to f, not the result-ch
02:43	tomoj	https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/wiki/Async-Programming
02:43	tomoj	the bottom example is kinda funny to me
02:43	tomoj	why isn't it (async (doseq [msg ch] (handle-message ch))) ?
02:45	tomoj	er, (handle-message msg) of course
03:16	brainproxy	just saw asterline's netty-ring-adapter, any thoughts on when to favor something like that instead of jetty?
05:00	TEttinger	,(doseq [j (range 4)] (doseq [i (range 4)] (print "*")) (print))
05:00	clojurebot	****************
05:00	TEttinger	&(doseq [j (range 4)] (doseq [i (range 4)] (print "*")) (print))
05:00	lazybot	⇒ ****************nil
05:00	TEttinger	huh, the bot I am running gets execution timeouts when it evals that code
05:01	TEttinger	&(doseq [j (range 4)] (doseq [i (range 10)] (print "*")) (print))
05:01	lazybot	⇒ ****************************************nil
05:04	nightfly_	I'm getting java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError when I try and import an abstract java class or any of it's decendants. The source file definitely exists and lein is compiling a .class for it. Is there some special symantics for dealing with abstract classes I'm missing or what?
05:08	borkdude	nightfly_ in this case it always helps to print a directorly listing on refheap, or better yet, the project on github
05:08	borkdude	nightfly_ and your project.clj -- not that I know the answer, but this usually helps people to find the error more quickly
05:08	mpenet	Sgeo: see pipeline/run-pipeline it's probably what you are looking for
05:09	Sgeo	Except for needing to use merge-results and then unpack the result from that in the next stage?
05:09	mpenet	there is a merge-result fn I think
05:10	mpenet	nm
05:10	mpenet	yes, you have to do that manually
05:10	nightfly_	borkdude: Well, most of the code is the decompiled code for minecraft so I can't really put it up anywhere... The only addition to my project.clj is :java-source-paths ["src/java"] and concrete classes are importing as expected.
05:13	mpenet	Sgeo: another option is to use restart/complete and use a pipeline like a loop that updates the state at every step
05:13	Sgeo	restart/complete?
05:13	mpenet	lamina.core/restart lamina.core/complete
05:14	Sgeo	Another option: Make it compatible with an existing macro that does pretty cool things.
06:23	wei_	is anyone using friend with noir and if so, how did you define the logout function?
06:30	muhoo	wei_: i did, i don't remember how i did that though
06:30	muhoo	nice work on the jida thing btw
06:30	wei_	thanks
06:31	muhoo	it looks like i just did ((friend/logout identity)
06:31	muhoo	(defpage "/logout" ... ((friend/logout identity)
06:32	wei_	oh, didn't realize that would work. I thought you needed to pass in a handler.
06:32	muhoo	with a (response/status 200....) after that
06:32	Raynes	Chris Granger should pay me for this shit.
06:32	muhoo	Raynes: which shit?
06:32	Raynes	Up at 5:30AM trying to get a noir release out, updating his crappy website with unqualified uses and shit.
06:32	Raynes	I'm going to ridicule him for these uses.
06:33	Raynes	He also uses TWO libraries that both have single segment namespaces.
06:33	wei_	haha. thanks for maintaining it, raynes
06:33	Raynes	And I had to switch to a new library for markdown and guess what? It uses single segment nses too.
06:33	wei_	that and jayq
06:33	muhoo	:-(
06:33	Raynes	I want to kill myself for even using these libraries.
06:34	muhoo	IIRC, somre of the uses in noir override core functions too
06:34	muhoo	some
06:34	Apage43	heh, I use conch + some command line markdown program for markdown in the things I've done that use markdown from clojure
06:35	wei_	noir is very opinionated.
06:35	Raynes	Noir is very annoying.
06:35	wei_	:P
06:36	Raynes	If Chris wasn't a buddy, I'd never even try to maintain it.
06:37	muhoo	it's very big of you to pick up that task.
06:37	muhoo	i'd say he owes you.
06:37	Raynes	He'll pay me back with liquor when I turn 21.
06:37	wei_	yes, thanks for wading through it. I've been very productive using it lately
06:38	muhoo	go to louisiana, drink there.
06:40	muhoo	ugh, my information is out of date. louisiana is 21 now too. whole country is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimum_purchase_age_by_state sorry bro, things were different in my day.
06:41	Sgeo	single segment namespaces?
06:41	Apage43	(ns blah) as opposed to (ns thing.blah)
06:41	Sgeo	oh
06:42	Sgeo	Uh, I take it that that's disliked for some reason?
06:42	Raynes	https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/gOffhotk25Y
06:42	Apage43	causes issues, yeah
06:42	Raynes	For lots of reasons.
06:42	Raynes	One, it's broken, two, people should at least try to use unique namespaces.
06:43	gfredericks	like ##(format "ns-%d" (rand-int 10000000))?
06:43	lazybot	⇒ "ns-4153793"
06:43	muhoo	namespaces didn't make my life as miserable as the copious use of macros did. or the non-functional storing of local state in atoms. or, whatever, i enjoyed noir until i didn't anymore.
06:46	wei_	muhoo: thanks, your suggestion above worked for me
06:47	muhoo	great. i'm going to have to integrate friend with some kind of json or edn service soon, so i'll refamiliarize with it
06:47	wei_	ah, i have it working with fetch
06:48	muhoo	cool, in that jida project?
06:48	wei_	nope, another project. this example helped: https://github.com/xeqi/friend-fetch-example
06:48	Sgeo	Is Friend usable with non-web services?
06:49	wei_	although I'm going to update that example with a working log-out
06:50	wei_	Sgeo: I've only used it for web, although it claims to support "multiple workflows"
06:51	wei_	muhoo: did you use friend with a session store in your last project? that's not working for me yet
06:51	muhoo	wei_: i used couchdb as a session store, iirc
06:52	muhoo	had to do some massive hacks/fixes to the couch session store lib though
06:53	wei_	i'm using mongo. other than the lib, did you do anything more than specify :session-store in noir.server/start?
06:55	wei_	(thanks)
06:56	muhoo	ah, i never integrated that in production. it's sitting in a dead branch. wasn't confident in it.
06:57	muhoo	but it was easy, just https://www.refheap.com/paste/7211
06:59	muhoo	so the production app is using a memory store, apparently. but, yes, just :session-store and off you go.
07:00	wei_	that's what I have too, with monger. it's creating the session records but not authenticating the user when they come back.
07:00	wei_	will investigate further
07:01	muhoo	doing more reading, the reason i didn't integrate it is because i got the idea that having session store come back through a json round trip to a network data store was insane.
07:02	muhoo	looks like just keeping it in ram was going to be fine, and i was going to add in the aging middleware so as to not burn up ram
07:03	muhoo	also, i was using google auth, so if the server restarted, and the memory wiped out, google would reauth them transparently, and the users didn't see any glitch.
07:05	muhoo	and i wasn't doing anything really stateful on the server side anyway.
07:05	wei_	i see. memory store works great for your use case
07:35	sqiudz	what would be the shortest way to change [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2] into [0 0 0 1 2 2 2] ?
07:36	borkdude	sqiudz (fn [a b c] (concat a [b] c))
07:36	hyPiRion	&((fn [& r] (flatten (apply concat r))) [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2])
07:36	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
07:36	sqiudz	borkdude: so just convert the single val to a single vector val and then use concat?
07:37	borkdude	,( (fn [a b c] (concat a [b] c)) [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2])
07:37	clojurebot	(0 0 0 1 2 ...)
07:37	hyPiRion	&((fn [& r] (flatten (apply reduce into r))) [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2])
07:37	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$reduce
07:37	borkdude	sqiudz yes
07:37	hyPiRion	Arrh, I'm too old for this.
07:37	hyPiRion	,(flatten (conj [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2]))
07:37	clojurebot	(0 0 0 1 2 ...)
07:38	hyPiRion	Is the idea.
07:38	sqiudz	im getting the illegalArgumentException though
07:39	hyPiRion	sqiudz: For which? borkdude's should work fine.
07:39	sqiudz	hyPiRion: let me try your last one
07:39	hyPiRion	,((fn [& r] (flatten (reduce conj r))) [0 0 0] 1 [2 2 2])
07:39	clojurebot	(0 0 0 1 2 ...)
07:41	sqiudz	hyPiRion: okay the last one with flatten seems to work
07:42	Chousuke	I hope that's not a very common operation in your program :P
07:42	sqiudz	the only thing is that it converts it to a list when I wanted to keep it a vector
07:42	Chousuke	sqiudz: call vec on the result again
07:42	sqiudz	Chousuke: and yes it will be pretty common
07:42	Chousuke	then use a different data structure
07:43	sqiudz	calling vec only puts the list in [(n1 n2 n3)]
07:43	sqiudz	Chousuke: please elaborate
07:43	Chousuke	adding things in the middle of a vector is a linear operation
07:43	Chousuke	which means if you do it a lot, it will be slow
07:44	sqiudz	i', appending vectors with conj
07:44	sqiudz	isnt that different?
07:44	Chousuke	in that case you can do:
07:45	Chousuke	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
07:45	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
07:45	Chousuke	that's not so bad, performance-wise
07:45	sqiudz	I have a single value in between
07:45	sqiudz	like [1 2 3] 4 [5 6 7]
07:46	Chousuke	well then you should do a conj first and then into
07:46	sqiudz	okay
07:46	sqiudz	then performance should be pretty good still right?
07:46	Chousuke	well, it's still linear on the size of the vector you're appending + the one conj
07:46	Chousuke	but it's better than using reduce conj and flatten and then making a new vector
07:47	sqiudz	okay, thanks. Do you think it would be possible to get it to run constant?
07:47	Chousuke	no.
07:47	hyPiRion	Constant?
07:47	clojurebot	unlink: and constantly is just a function that takes any arguments and returns whatever argument is given
07:48	borkdude	what about this one? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7216
07:48	hyPiRion	,(conj [1 2 3] 4) ; is constant
07:48	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
07:48	Chousuke	sqiudz: you can concat two lists lazily in constant time but not vectors.
07:49	hyPiRion	,(into [1 2 3] [4 5 6]) ; O(n), where n is the size of the last vector
07:49	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
07:49	sqiudz	Chousuke: ah okay. Is it true that Lists are kind of like LinkedLists in java where Arrays are like ArrayLists?
07:49	Chousuke	mmm not really.
07:49	Chousuke	arrays support random access, and conj to the tail
07:49	sqiudz	then how can I compare the two
07:49	Chousuke	lists are linear access only and conj to the front
07:50	Chousuke	neither support insertion in the middle
07:50	sqiudz	ah okay thanks very helpful
07:50	borkdude	sqiudz did you see my fn in the refheap paste?
07:50	Chousuke	also, I said arrays but I meant vectors, obviously :P
07:50	sqiudz	borkdude: no let me take a look
07:50	borkdude	it basically selects into or conj
07:50	Chousuke	sqiudz: and clojure lists and vectors are also immutable, which is quite important :)
07:51	sqiudz	yes, I guess what I did was kind of make my own array insert
07:52	Chousuke	if you need a lot of inserts in the middle of a data structure you should maybe use a finger tree or something
07:52	sqiudz	this is what I did in the end https://www.refheap.com/paste/7217
07:52	Chousuke	but if you're fine with just appending vectors to each other then into should be okay.
07:52	sqiudz	Chousuke: So I would have to implement my own finger tree right, since I suppose clojure doesnt support them out of the box
07:53	sqiudz	that just inserts a '1' into a vector at a given index
07:54	Chousuke	sqiudz: there's a contrib library of finger trees
07:54	Chousuke	sqiudz: but you can keep on using vectors for now
07:54	Chousuke	change it later if speed is an issue
07:54	borkdude	Chousuke right, if it's not the bottleneck, why bother
07:55	Sgeo	Why does frenchy64's analyze require 1.5?
07:55	sqiudz	Chousuke: ive never used a finger tree, and while it shouldnt be a problem with speed, it might be interesting to acquaint myself with finger trees anyhow
07:56	borkdude	sqiudz or use a Java ArrayList :P
07:56	Chousuke	finger trees are weird
07:56	Chousuke	:P
07:56	sqiudz	I would rather go functional if I have the choice
07:56	borkdude	sqiudz good boy, this was only a test
07:56	sqiudz	haha
07:57	Chousuke	finger trees can actually be used to implement all kinds of weird data structures
07:57	sqiudz	I'm really loving clojure. I normally program java, and started doing haskell on the side. Haskell was fun, but it was so hard to get things done. Maybe I just need more time. After trying clojure though, everything just seems to be 'right'
07:57	sqiudz	Chousuke: do you use them often?
07:58	borkdude	sqiudz I sense that too. Clojure is made for people who want to get things done
07:58	Chousuke	nah. I just know they're capable of crazy stuff :P
07:58	Chousuke	it's a bit easier to experiment with clojure
07:58	Chousuke	haskell can be extremely productive as well but you need to understand its abstractions an type system and it's a bit of a hurdle.
07:58	Chousuke	and*
07:59	tgoossens	i have a collection: ((0 1 4 7 8 9) (0 1 2 5 8 9) (0 1 2 5 6 9) (0 3 4 7 8 9) (0 1 2 4 7 9) (0 2 5 7 8 9)) . Some of the subcollections are the complement of another (concretely: (map #(- 9 %) coll) sometimes matches another one)
07:59	tgoossens	i want to filter this collection
07:59	tgoossens	to remove the complements
07:59	tgoossens	so that in the result, no subcoll is the complement of another
08:00	tgoossens	hmm
08:00	tgoossens	maybe recursion will help me here
08:00	borkdude	Chousuke yes agree about Haskell, it's a bit of a learning curve but I have the gut feeling there must be something at the end being worth it all
08:00	Chousuke	borkdude: some of the abstractions are simply beautiful
08:01	borkdude	Chousuke I'm reading about parsing now, it looks nice - I think you could do the same in clojure though
08:01	Chousuke	even supposedly "scary" things like monads are extremely simple. Once you understand what they actually do.
08:02	Chousuke	you can actually implement monads in clojure with about 20 lines of code
08:02	Chousuke	they're not quite as convenient to use as in haskell. though.
08:03	borkdude	Chousuke I am only a Haskell n00b, but the do syntax thing, it can be applied to monadic things right?
08:03	borkdude	Chousuke I mean, do is made to make monadic composition easier?
08:03	Chousuke	do syntax is sugar for bind, yeah
08:03	sqiudz	would using monads in clojure be more of an abstraction design decision, where using Monads could improve say an API
08:03	Chousuke	borkdude: a monad is actually an abstraction that provides two operations, bind and return.
08:04	Chousuke	borkdude: do is sugar for making bind easier to use.
08:04	sqiudz	and I guess the good stuff is how you define bind
08:04	Chousuke	so everything that implements the monad abstraction gets to use do
08:04	Chousuke	because it's just bind under the covers
08:04	borkdude	Chousuke right
08:05	sqiudz	being able to implement your own bind means that you can provide a 'context' to every sequential bind that you do in a given monad
08:05	sqiudz	which is i guess why some describe monads as a context
08:10	borkdude	sqiudz I think "context" is a nice term for it
08:11	borkdude	that makes me wonder, what does the word monad actually mean… http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=monad <- right...
08:26	tomoj	Sgeo: you seen the pod talk?
08:26	Sgeo	tomoj, no
08:29	Sgeo	Hmm, delimc seems to use macroexpand-1 as its only macroexpansion tool
08:29	Sgeo	Which is, uh. Insufficient.
08:30	Sgeo	As far as I can tell, macroexpand-1 and macroexpand-all are not sufficient to fully macroexpand a macro and all subforms
08:30	Sgeo	There's no way to pass a lexical environment to them, so any macro that uses &env will break.
08:32	tomoj	Sgeo: maybe tools.macro's mexpand will work?
08:33	Sgeo	Just realized that macros are functions, you can call the function, and I think the function takes &env and &form as arguments
08:33	Sgeo	tomoj, or that might work
08:33	tomoj	hmm, there's no &env in that ns though
08:35	tomoj	jacking in.. aw. pom.xml.
08:37	Sgeo	...I think I'm about to get into a flamewar on Clojuredocs
08:41	Sgeo	Is there any way to receive an email when someone comments on a Clojuredoc page
08:41	Sgeo	?
08:52	KiPSOFT	hi all
09:00	sqiudz	hi kip
09:01	KiPSOFT	how to type class default property in clojure ?
09:01	sqiudz	how do I*
09:02	KiPSOFT	http://pastebin.com/7trq5ziM
09:02	KiPSOFT	example this pastebin
09:39	Voting	If I'm planning to work in clojurescript in the near future, is this channel where I should ask my questions?
09:40	daimrod	Voting: there is #clojurescript
09:40	jonasen	Voting: yes
09:41	Voting	Only 3 or 4 in #clojurescript... better to be here?
09:43	hyPiRion	Voting: better to be here, yes.
09:43	Voting	I'm an old hand at Lisp programming (Lisp Machines even) ... Will I clojurescript?
09:43	Voting	will I enjoy clojurescript?
09:45	AimHere	You might like it more than javascript
09:50	sqiudz	how do clojurescript and fay(haskell) compare?
09:51	Voting	Considering http://haxe.org/ - Why would I consider ClojureScript rather than a haxe, a language the provides lots of checking and portability?
09:52	Raptum	because parens
09:53	Voting	(I was not joking - what is good about javascript...)
09:53	AimHere	Voting, there's a book all about that, actually
09:53	AimHere	Admittedly, a slim one
09:53	Voting	AimHere: what book do you mean?
09:54	AimHere	Javascript: The Good Parts, by Douglas Crockford
09:54	AimHere	The thesis is that under all that terrible DOM junk, and a bunch of ugly ad-hoc warts, there's a nice, powerful, flexible language yearning to break free
09:55	Voting	AimHere: Javascript: the good parts will help me know if I want to program in Haxe or ClojureScript?
09:56	MauriceMoss42	hey all... I've got an hypothetical question (in order to better understand how Clojure works): if I could modify Clojure so that I could prevent 'eval' from working at runtime (I'm not saying it's possible: let just pretend it is), would program not specifically using eval and not offering a REPL still work?
09:56	Voting	yes
09:56	AimHere	Not really. Clojurescript is for people who want to write something like Clojure because they don't want to write Javascript either
09:56	MauriceMoss42	Voting: was the 'yes' for my question about eval?
09:57	Voting	MauriceMoss42: PM me if you like
09:57	Voting	MauriceMoss42: yes, I would be surprised if ...
09:57	Voting	I am wrong about that...
09:57	Voting	funcall sorts of thing may be used all over the place...
09:58	Voting	but eval should not be used beside in the repl
09:58	Voting	and when someone calls eval
09:59	AimHere	Eval is like reader macros or thermonuclear weapons. You can sneer at other languages or other countries, because you have such things and they don't, but for fucks sake, don't thing about actually USING them
10:00	Voting	But I don't know the actual implementation of clojure... I'm just talking in general about how lisps are implemented
10:00	AimHere	*think
10:00	Voting	I think reader macros can be useful in certain applications, actually. Used to know johl white, the inventor of them...
10:01	Voting	Where would you expect eval to be used where internally, MauriceMoss42 ?
10:01	MauriceMoss42	AimHere: my question was more like: "If I'm not specifically using eval, is Clojure under the hood still using eval at runtime even if there's no repl" : )
10:02	Voting	where would it?
10:02	MauriceMoss42	Voting: well... you tell me : ) I'm just discovering the macro / functions (compiled to bytecode in Clojure?!) etc. and I was wondering about that specific case.
10:02	AimHere	Well you could always grep the code you're intending to use for 'eval' (and then grep for the functions that use it etc)
10:03	AimHere	As in, the underlying code for the libraries and so on
10:03	MauriceMoss42	Voting: I mean: knowing that eval should potentially not be used anywhere at runtime unless I'm either using a REPL or specifically calling eval helps me better understand how thing works (I guess)
10:03	Voting	MauriceMoss42: A compiler for lisp...
10:03	MauriceMoss42	AimHere: but I'd also then need to grep the built-in APIs / functions / macros...
10:04	MauriceMoss42	Voting: (another topic) so reader macros were a late addition to lisps dialect and weren't in the "first lisp"?
10:04	Voting	MauriceMoss42: A compiler for lisp can generate code that applies functions to arguments, right? Why would the compiler need to eval? It is arranging to do that later, right?
10:05	Voting	MauriceMoss42: reader macros were not in lisp 1.5, for sure.
10:08	Voting	MauriceMoss42: and they are an obscure feature for use when you want to be able to be able to type in a data structure. Say, for example, I want to be able to type in the name of a person and have it hook into the person, stored in some lookup table or something... I want the code to be able to write out data structuers that will be readable later... you could program your entire life in lisp and never choose to use this feature and this w
10:09	Voting	(I'm speaking as a person who use to program in CommonLisp and predecessor lisps and I could be out of date here.)
10:13	MauriceMoss42	Voting: thanks a lot for all these infos... Going back to devouring my book ("Clojure programming") : )
10:16	hcumberdale	How to order '("/prefix/filename2.ext" "/prefix/filename1.ext" "/prefix/filename3.ext") by '("filename1" "filename2")?
10:18	gfredericks	hcumberdale: you need a function that pulls out the simple filename, then you can use sort-by
10:19	wingy	should i cache user profile pages?
10:19	hcumberdale	gfredericks: But I need the full file name as result
10:19	wingy	seems not cacheable right since GET /my-account requests should give you different pages based on what session id is
10:20	hcumberdale	wingy: why not use GET /account/username or id
10:21	hcumberdale	Or cache the results behind the decision what to put into my-account
10:22	wingy	hcumberdale: seems weird since you still need to be logged in (have the correct session data) or else GET /accounts/:id would fail
10:22	wingy	another reason might be that then someone can save the URL which gives the wrong impression that you can just click on it and be logged in
10:23	wingy	oh
10:24	hcumberdale	wingy: that shouldn't be a problem since you can check if the user is logged in and redirect
10:24	hcumberdale	do you use friend?
10:24	wingy	no
10:25	wingy	let's say that this is a bank .. is it good to have the profile page cached?
10:25	wingy	will it rise security issues?
10:25	hcumberdale	wingy: caching is not about security
10:25	hcumberdale	(server-side caching)
10:26	hcumberdale	You can just check if a user is authorized regardless if you have a cache or not
10:27	wingy	ok
10:27	wingy	i'll try with GET /account first and see if it fits
10:27	hcumberdale	just having a page which is aware of a session-id and is not good for many reasons
10:27	wingy	without caching that is
10:28	wingy	friend can help me with this kind of stuff?
10:28	hcumberdale	wingy: HTTP-GET should get a uniqe single ressource
10:28	hcumberdale	wingy: yes!
10:28	hcumberdale	There are frameworks working like GET /everything with some parameters, session awareness and so on
10:29	hcumberdale	But you should avoid that
10:29	hcumberdale	if there is a ressource you can build nice url's to directly point to it
10:29	wingy	https://github.com/cemerick/friend seems difficult to get
10:29	hcumberdale	like /accounts/john_doe
10:30	hcumberdale	wingy: yes but only because it is lacking full & complete examples
10:30	wingy	it is worth the time then?
10:30	hcumberdale	It is not hard at all if you get it working
10:31	hcumberdale	wingy: there is sandbar and friend, both good
10:31	hcumberdale	friend is more up to date, provides more features and does not come with dependencies like hiccup
10:32	hcumberdale	I've written a lot with sandbar. But now I'm going on with friend
10:32	wingy	cool didnt know about sandbar
10:32	wingy	i trust cemerick :)
10:32	wingy	up to date means everything
10:35	hcumberd`	;)
10:42	cemerick	hcumberd`: friend will be getting much better docs soon. I finally pushed my revamp of nrepl docs recently, so friend is the last project of mine waiting in that particular queue. Thanks for your patience. :-)
10:43	borkdude	what a friend we have in cemerick
10:45	hcumberd`	cemerick: thx! I've created some working examples for friend+compojure.
10:52	wingy	yeah would better doc i would get how to use friend
10:53	wingy	please explain what/why/how
10:54	hcumberd`	wingy
10:54	hcumberd`	https://github.com/kremers/friendly
10:55	wingy	thx
10:56	wingy	hcumberd`: i also found that https://twitter.com/settings/profile is not appending your id in the URL
10:56	wingy	so i should just do GET /account
10:56	wingy	and check whatever session id to respond with
10:56	wingy	and not cache it
10:58	hcumberd`	wingy: it's kind of the interpretation of HTTP-GET
10:58	wingy	btw .. if all my pages is showing the current username in the HTML page .. then to be able to caching it I have to provide GET /page?user=123 right?
10:58	hcumberd`	If you say a the page "account" is a single unique ressource it's okay
10:58	wingy	since if i just have GET /page then i can't have them showing different usernames
10:59	hcumberd`	From the view of the user it is a unique ressource
10:59	hcumberd`	From the view of the server it's not. So its really possible to discuss
11:00	hcumberd`	wingy: There is browser-side and server-side caching possible
11:00	hcumberd`	The browser just saves the page beyond "account"
11:00	hcumberd`	The cache will work for a single user
11:00	hcumberd`	Not if he's logging out and in with another user again
11:01	hcumberd`	it is very unlikely that cache coherence will occur
11:01	hcumberd`	Because the browser will invalidate the cache
11:01	wingy	i c
11:01	wingy	so i dont need to append anything in the GET path
11:01	hcumberd`	Yes you do not need to
11:01	wingy	google isn't https://www.google.com/ shows my name
11:01	hcumberd`	But you should to comply to HTTP spec
11:02	wingy	hcumberd`: when will the browser invalidate the cache? when the session is changed?
11:03	hcumberd`	http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec9.html#sec9.3
11:03	hcumberd`	wingy: depends on the browser
11:03	hcumberd`	IE6 will have a different mechanism
11:05	hcumberd`	wingy: you can provide cache headers in HTTP
11:05	hcumberd`	Cache-Control: max-age=1000
11:05	wingy	yeah
11:06	p_l	also, ETags can help
11:06	hcumberd`	Or NoCache
11:06	hcumberd`	wingy: if your browser supports ETags, that's the creme
11:06	hcumberd`	creme-de-la-creme
11:06	wingy	yeah i have to read about that
11:06	hcumberd`	You can cache every ressource with it, but ETag generation is a big topic
11:07	hcumberd`	wingy: ETags are really easy. HTTP sends an additional Header ETAG:mytaghere
11:07	hcumberd`	The tag should be a uuid, generated by a checksum of the ressource
11:07	hcumberd`	resource ;)
11:08	wingy	my actual question was that if I do GET /profile and then my server will check for what user is currently logged in through session and respond with the current user profile .. if it's cached then the next GET /profile would give the same user .. so you are saying that if the user logs out the cache will be invalid .. and the next GET /profile will be re-fetched based on the new session data?
11:09	hcumberd`	wingy: It depends on how content is provided in your page
11:09	hcumberd`	Do you load specific things with javascript after page generation
11:10	wingy	no its just html
11:10	wingy	server spits out html to client
11:10	tataloo	is there any motherfucking manual for working with logical expressions and bitwise in clojure/
11:10	tataloo	?
11:11	wingy	lol
11:11	wingy	wanna RTFM i guess
11:12	tataloo	what the fuck is RTFM?
11:12	hcumberd`	tataloo: I don't know if there is a manual that fulfils the requirement 'motherfucking'.
11:13	tataloo	ok :(
11:13	wingy	tataloo: what you are trying to do :)
11:13	hcumberd`	http://clojure.org/data_structures
11:13	hcumberd`	There is a reference to all bitwise-* operators
11:13	hcumberd`	wingy: or what he better should do
11:13	tataloo	find the true bits in a binary using &
11:16	hcumberd`	tataloo: find the position, count,... ?
11:16	cemerick	hcumberd`: by all means, publish 'em
11:17	tataloo	seems fucking legit
11:18	hcumberd`	https://github.com/kremers/friendly
11:18	hcumberd`	That's one example ;)
11:19	hcumberd`	wingy: if you log out and log in again and the cache header does not say anything about invalidation it depends on your browser what happens
11:19	wingy	hcumberd`: ok
11:20	hcumberd`	Not all browsers comply fully to the HTTP SPEC about caching
11:20	hcumberd`	When it's likely to see errors in IE
11:20	hcumberd`	pages may work very well in FF
11:20	hcumberd`	http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec13.html#sec13
11:20	hcumberd`	Best you'll stick to the specification
11:21	hcumberd`	It's the only thing assuring you doing the 'right' thing
11:21	hcumberd`	(.replace thing way)
11:28	hcumberd`	wingy: If you work with cache invalidation headers like Last-Modified and a resource that is aware to a kind of 'state' like the session-id, you'll have to generate headers depending on the context. That's why a writing a single page for multiple cached results for different users is so hard to do
11:29	hcumberd`	It's much more easy to redirect on the context to a specific resource
11:30	hcumberd`	Like /my-account will forward you to /my-account/john_doe
11:31	wingy	hcumberd`: yeah
11:32	wingy	probably a better idea .. seems more correct
11:32	wingy	GET /accounts/123
11:33	wingy	and then it checks the session id before generating
11:33	wingy	more RESTful
11:34	hcumberd`	yes
11:35	hcumberd`	Then caching is no problem. And you really have the control when to send modified headers or etags because you know when the page changed for a specific user
11:36	wingy	yeah!
11:36	hcumberd`	But the page as it is, is mostly the smallest part
11:37	hcumberd`	Bigger party are images, css, js, ...
11:37	hcumberd`	all cachable with etags
11:37	wingy	yupp
11:37	hcumberd`	if your page is really, really calculation/performance intensive you might really want to cache the whole page with etag&modified-since header
11:38	wingy	I have an anchor that do GET /logout and here is the route (GET "/logout" [] {:status 302 :headers {"Location" "/"} :session nil}) .. the issue is that after clicking it my browser is pointing to /logout still when it should be pointing to /
11:38	wingy	what is the issue?
11:40	wingy	i think the issue is jquery mobile … it's doing some magic in frontend
11:40	hcumberd`	wingy: you should use ring/redirect
11:41	hcumberd`	(GET "/admin/categories" [] (redirect "/admin/categories/"))
11:42	hcumberd`	like it's used to add a missing /
11:42	wingy	but then i can't nil the session
11:42	wingy	where is the function so i can see what its returning?
11:42	wingy	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/tree/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware
11:43	wingy	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/util/response.clj
11:43	wingy	its doing the same thing as I
11:44	MauriceMoss42	tataloo: you mean using instead of & or 'and'? (spent quite some time debugging a piece of code where I was using 'and' instead of 'bit-and'... That's when static typing may help a little bit ; )
11:44	hcumberd`	wingy: don't understand what exactly you mean
11:45	wingy	hcumberd`: just saying its returning the same response map as i do
11:45	MauriceMoss42	tataloo: you mean using BIT-AND instead of & or 'and'
11:45	MauriceMoss42	tataloo: (forgot the word 'bit-and', which may be what you're after)
11:45	tataloo	sure
11:45	hcumberd`	wingy: yes but it's build in ring functionality. Should be used if available (more readable,...)
11:45	MauriceMoss42	tataloo: I did just use the Clojure cheatsheet as my 'manual' : )
11:46	tataloo	yeah :)
11:46	hcumberd`	wingy: if you use friend like in the example project, you can use friend/logout
11:46	hcumberd`	It's middleware that cleans out all session information
11:51	dbs	Help please on working with multiple handlers (xmpp + noir-async). How do I make a noir/async-push whenever I receive an xmpp message? This code doesn't quite work: http://codepad.org/vGwRtwxD
12:08	borkdude	is there a function to append a line to a file, without with-open etc (pref. in clojure 1.3.0)
12:10	borkdude	probably this is just it? (defn log-line [line path]
12:10	borkdude	(with-open [wrtr (writer path :append true)]
12:10	borkdude	(.write line)))
12:33	hcumberd`	wingy: what are you currently writing?
12:34	wingy	hcumberd`: how so?
12:34	hcumberd`	users/accounts/http caching...?
12:34	hcumberd`	Shopping Website?
12:34	wingy	hcumberd`: yeah :)
12:34	wingy	thought to apply for YC next year
12:34	hcumberd`	What's YC?
12:34	wingy	hcumberd`: YCombinator
12:35	wingy	hcumberd`: and you?
12:36	hcumberd`	wingy: I've written a blog in clojure, tried a lot frameworks and ideas
12:36	wingy	link?
12:36	clojurebot	your link is dead
12:37	wingy	clojurebot: yeah . but perhaps not his
12:37	clojurebot	excusez-moi
12:37	wingy	clojurebot: shut up
12:37	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:37	hcumberd`	https://github.com/kremers/cblog
12:37	wingy	you look happy :)
12:38	wingy	from Germany?
12:38	hcumberd`	yes
12:38	wingy	cool .. huge market
12:39	hcumberd`	happy? impressions->go ?
12:39	wingy	the pic
12:40	hcumberd`	ahh github
12:40	hcumberd`	yes, it was taken in hamburg on a ship
12:41	hcumberd`	the market is huge, depending where in Germany you live
13:07	TimMc	clojurebot: forget your link \|is\| dead
13:07	clojurebot	I forgot that your link is dead
13:08	hcumberd`	!link google.de
13:10	Raptum	as someone whom is coming from scheme/CL and hasn't used java in a few years, would it really be all that worth my time to run through a refresher course on java again before pursuing the clojure path?
13:10	TimMc	Raptum: If you've used Java at all in the past, probably not.
13:10	Raptum	cool.
13:11	TimMc	Clojure uses some newer standard-library features such as the executors framework, but you likely won't need to know anything about that dependency.
13:11	Raptum	anything massive i'm going to miss from the other lisps?
13:11	Raptum	CL in particular
13:12	TimMc	Full numeric tower.
13:13	TimMc	Clojure relies on JVM numerics, which has some weirdness re: hashing, and in version 1.3 abandoned autopromoting math as a default.
13:14	TimMc	e.g. ##(take 4 (range Long/MAX_VALUE Double/POSITIVE_INFINITY)) used to work
13:14	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow
13:14	Raptum	ah
13:15	TimMc	&(take 4 (iterate inc' Long/MAX_VALUE))
13:15	lazybot	⇒ (9223372036854775807 9223372036854775808N 9223372036854775809N 9223372036854775810N)
13:15	TimMc	inc', +', *', etc. are the new autopromoting numeric ops
13:15	TimMc	Clojure likes to use longs by default anyway, so it mostly doesn't matter.
13:16	TimMc	I don't think I've actually needed BigInteger (BigInt?) once.
13:17	sqiudz	what's the best way to write tail-recursive functions in clojure?
13:18	hcumberd`	loop,recur
13:21	sqiudz	okay. is loop functional?
13:21	dbs	any pointers on working with multiple handlers?
13:22	hcumberd`	sqiudz: yes
13:30	borkdude	hcumberd` sqiudz there's only some issues about recur, I don't know what this problem is called, but you can't guarantee which recur belongs to which loop or fn
13:31	borkdude	sqiudz in case you use macro's… forgot what this problem is called though
13:33	sqiudz	borkdude: I dont use macros, so this shouldnt be a problem right?
13:38	borkdude	sqiudz in general it works
13:39	borkdude	sqiudz personally I never ran into problems
13:47	DaReaper5	Does anyone know how to or if i can return file (of ANY type) with ring on a clojure server
13:47	borkdude	when I connect to an nrepl server and have a nrepl repl in emacs, how do I eval code from some source file?
13:48	borkdude	C-x C-e says: lisp-eval-last-sexp is void...
13:48	DaReaper5	Here is a list of mime types but none of them make sense for ANY type of file: https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/util/mime_type.clj
13:49	sqiudz	borkdude: did you change the namespace in the repl for you file?
13:49	borkdude	sqiudz I switched to the buffer with the source file
13:49	borkdude	then I want to eval, just like in slime/swank setup
13:50	borkdude	nrepl connecting works
13:50	borkdude	evaluating from the repl in emacs also
13:50	borkdude	but not from a source file
13:51	sqiudz	try C-c M-n first
13:51	DaReaper5	Does anyone know how to or if i can return file (of ANY type) with ring on a clojure server
13:51	borkdude	sqiudz undefined
13:52	sqiudz	are you running in nREPL mode?
13:52	borkdude	I'm using nrepl 1.5 btw. I don't know if the .clj buffer knows about nrepl?
13:52	sqiudz	i mean nreple-interaction-mode
13:53	borkdude	sqiudz ah that's it… why do I have to turn it on manually?
13:53	sqiudz	run nrepl-interaction-mode in your clojure buffer. that will enable you to evaluate code from source
13:53	sqiudz	borkdude: not sure, i just started using the emacs version today
13:53	borkdude	ok
13:53	borkdude	:-s
13:54	sqiudz	i just added a line to my init.el that starts it anytime i open a clojure file
13:54	borkdude	sqiudz maybe I should re-open it
13:54	sqiudz	yeah maybe
13:55	borkdude	sqiudz hmm, when I re-eval a function it complains: log-line already refers to: #'twitter-service.views.welcome/log-line in namespace: user -- yes, so?
13:56	borkdude	hmm, apparently nrepl-interaction-mode doesn't know in what namespace to eval the code!
13:56	borkdude	bitten by the newness of it
13:56	sqiudz	did you do C-c M-n after starting nrepl-interaction-mode?
13:56	borkdude	maybe it does work when I re-open the file
13:57	borkdude	sqiudz I did now, but what does it do?
13:57	sqiudz	that should load your namespace into the repl
13:58	sqiudz	after having your namespace loaded, just occasionally use C-c C-k to save/reload your buffer, and you should always be synced between repl and source
14:00	sqiudz	borkdude: any luck?
14:00	borkdude	sqiudz yes tnx. these are all additional steps from slime/swank though
14:02	sqiudz	so as far as i know the process is start nrepl server(once) -> load namespace(once) -> save file/eval
14:03	borkdude	sqiudz yes, probably I ran into some edge case -- I repeat, always when I try to use some new technology I run into problems no-one ever had :-s
14:03	borkdude	what should I use when I want to .writeln to a textfile in clojure?
14:04	borkdude	dynamically rebind out?
14:04	sqiudz	not sure what you mean
14:06	borkdude	smth like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/7221
14:08	sqiudz	dont know what binding does
14:12	borkdude	sqiudz it dynamically rebinds the var out to a different stream
14:12	borkdude	so all subsequent calls to println will write to the different stream
14:13	borkdude	on heroku, if I want to write to a file in my application's resource folder, what (absolute) path do I use? technomancy ?
14:16	antares_	borkdude: I don't think using absolute paths on heroku is a good idea
14:17	antares_	borkdude: I assume current directory is a good place to write to, or ./resources
14:17	borkdude	antares_ maybe not… should I just use "resources/blah.txt"?
14:18	borkdude	a matter of trying I guess
14:18	borkdude	it seems to work
14:20	black_joe	I have a question about calling methods from within lists.
14:20	black_joe	http://pastebin.com/Z4eq2Csr
14:20	black_joe	This function returns nil on execution, but every call seems valid from println debugging.
14:20	black_joe	So, is there some special procedure when putting a Class/method function into a list?
14:22	borkdude	black_joe first of all, you will get better help when using refheap.com :P
14:23	black_joe	Sweet, I never knew about that. It has always been such a pain on Pastebin to find the Clojure highlighting
14:26	black_joe	Hmm... It's not just for Class/method. Println, when put in as ordinance's (first (first)) doesn't run either.
14:27	borkdude	black_joe some functions like println return nil, but only have a side effect
14:28	borkdude	black_joe I find your code bit hard to follow
14:28	black_joe	Right, but still. Double/parseDouble should reutrn a double.
14:28	black_joe	Sorry. It is hastily thrown together to fix a problem that arose this morning.
14:29	black_joe	What I am looking to do is have a function that assigns types to a string based on a letter in parentheses, like "4.0(d)"
14:29	borkdude	,(Double/parseDouble "2.0")
14:29	clojurebot	2.0
14:29	borkdude	,(println (Double/parseDouble "2.0"))
14:29	clojurebot	2.0
14:30	borkdude	,(nil? (println (Double/parseDouble "2.0")))
14:30	clojurebot	2.0
14:30	clojurebot	true
14:30	black_joe	,(println ((second (println Double/parseDouble)) "4.0))
14:30	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
14:30	black_joe	,(println ((second (println Double/parseDouble)) "4.0"))
14:30	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: parseDouble in class java.lang.Double, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:30	black_joe	Hmm... That could be a problem.
14:31	black_joe	Crap. I forgot to make that a literal list.
14:32	black_joe	Okay, I can confirm that this does not work: ((second '(println Double/parseDouble)) "4.0")
14:32	black_joe	So... would there be any way to call parseDouble in that fashion?
14:32	borkdude	,(second '(println Double/parseDouble))
14:32	clojurebot	Double/parseDouble
14:33	black_joe	,((second '(println Double/parseDouble)) "4.0")
14:33	clojurebot	nil
14:33	black_joe	See?
14:34	borkdude	black_joe you must read that as ('Double/parseDouble "4.0")
14:34	black_joe	So it's being considered literal, then?
14:34	black_joe	What would be the correct way to call it in that fashion.
14:34	borkdude	,('foo {'foo 2 'bar 4})
14:34	clojurebot	2
14:35	borkdude	black_joe symbols look themselves up in maps (they behave as functions), that's why you get nil here
14:35	borkdude	black_joe how to convert a symbol to a method.. I would wrap the method into a function first and throw around the function
14:37	black_joe	Well, that's a bit overly complex. I will just throw an if structure together instead of having a list of functions.
14:37	black_joe	Thanks. Also, thanks for the refHeap.
14:38	borkdude	black_joe that's probably a better idea, welcome
14:39	black_joe	I just usually avoid that since it limits the scalability to work on other types. But I guess with the limited number it would be best.
14:39	apwalk	black_joe: your code works as written, when called as (apply-type "4.0(d)" [["(d)" #(Double/parseDouble %)]])
14:39	apwalk	or as (apply-type "4.0(d)" (list (list "(d)" #(Double/parseDouble %))))
14:40	TimMc	,(read-string "4.0") :-P
14:40	clojurebot	4.0
14:40	black_joe	Hmm... Never seen "#". Guessing that's the reader macro for a function.
14:40	TimMc	black_joe: Anonymous function literals.
14:40	black_joe	Is the "%" significant? That's new to me too.
14:41	TimMc	&'#(+ % 3)
14:41	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [p1__11288#] (+ p1__11288# 3))
14:41	TimMc	&'#(+ %2 3)
14:41	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [p1__11300# p2__11299#] (+ p2__11299# 3))
14:42	black_joe	Well, glad to learn about those two. But the more I think about it, I am doing it with a cond.
14:43	black_joe	Using a list in this case could end up hurting someone calling it wrong, rather than helping them.
14:45	TimMc	black_joe: %1 (or %) through %9 are symbols captured by the fn literal reader macro.
14:45	TimMc	%& as wlel
14:46	black_joe	I am planning to read up on reader macros soon. I skipped over them in the book I read to learn Clojure. Along with destructuring.
14:46	borkdude	I usually find using (fn [] …) more pleasant to read though than #(% … %9), also #'s can't be nested
14:47	black_joe	^ I've always used fn as well.
14:47	Mr_Bond	sometimes it is handy with #(% .. etc), to put data at some place in the middle of a function
14:48	Mr_Bond	or several levels of recursive functions
14:50	DaReaper5	Does anyone know how to or if i can return file (of ANY type) with ring on a clojure server
14:51	borkdude	DaReaper5 I'm sorry, don't know
14:51	nightfly_	Is there a way to get a list of all the classes in a Java package available to clojure?
14:53	Mr_Bond	nightfly_: yes, you can do it in the same way as in java, since all java classes are also available to clojure, and you can call the same methods via clojure
14:54	Mr_Bond	like the refections library, can be used for it
14:54	Mr_Bond	http://code.google.com/p/reflections/
14:57	nightfly_	Mr_Bond: Thanks, checking it out now
14:58	hcumberd`	Is there a JVM free clojure?
14:58	black_joe	Technically Clojurescript.
14:58	hcumberd`	I heard of clojurec but it's not 1.4 right?
14:59	hcumberd`	Clojurescript,... mhh.
14:59	hcumberd`	Is there anything like a compiler (like in LISP)
14:59	black_joe	Not that I know of, no.
15:01	Mr_Bond	hcumberd`: it runs on .net as well
15:01	Raptum	Mr_Bond: clojure does?
15:02	Mr_Bond	yes
15:02	Mr_Bond	.net and jvm
15:02	Raptum	intredasting
15:02	Mr_Bond	and javascript as mentioned
15:02	Raptum	yes of course
15:02	Mr_Bond	probably possible to get it working on llvm or such as well
15:02	Mr_Bond	well, it is possible, but a fair amount of work
15:03	Mr_Bond	and have it compiled to machinecode
15:03	hcumberd`	what is llvm?
15:03	wingy	hcumberd`: lisp on clojure
15:05	Mr_Bond	hugod: it's sortof the basis of a compiler, which you can put compilers on top of
15:05	Mr_Bond	like clang (compiler), or llvm-py (python compiler)
15:05	magnars	what's the significance of the @ in `@(d/transact conn schema-tx)` ?
15:05	wingy	hcumberd`: i meant lisp on erlang
15:05	Mr_Bond	hcumberd`: sorry, I ment to write to you
15:06	wingy	hcumberd`: http://joxa.org/
15:06	wingy	https://github.com/schani/clojurec
15:06	wingy	the latter is not up to date it seems
15:07	Mr_Bond	clojurec looks cool
15:08	wingy	i donno .. sometimes i wished clojure was on c
15:08	wingy	not java
15:08	Mr_Bond	that would be ideal for things like raspberryPi
15:08	hcumberd`	thx 4 joxa link
15:09	hcumberd`	I like to use clojurec far more then the jvm sh**
15:09	hcumberd`	Clojure uses a bit of java syntax for string handling
15:09	hcumberd`	doesn't know how clojurec handles it
15:09	hcumberd`	It's a project I like to see evolve
15:11	Mr_Bond	the backend to files in clojure is pretty much java's File object as well
15:11	Mr_Bond	that will probably not work well either on clojurec
15:12	hcumberd`	Mhh Damn!
15:13	hcumberd`	Most things I write rely on the file handling functionality
15:14	Mr_Bond	you could create a simular interface in clojurec, but if you had to spend a lot of time re-inventing java interfaces, it might not be worth using it for the benefits of C. JVM is pretty good on many things as well, even compared to C
15:15	Raptum	...can i write android apps in clojure?
15:15	Mr_Bond	google seems to think so: I found this: http://www.deepbluelambda.org/programming/clojure/creating-android-applications-with-clojure
15:15	hcumberd`	But it's now from ORCALE
15:16	hcumberd`	there are so many bad libs
15:16	hcumberd`	bad quality everywhere ;(
15:16	black_joe	Raptum: Yes, but it would be more sane to write the functions of your program in Clojure and the Ui / resource stuff in Java.
15:16	Raptum	ah
15:16	wingy	Mr_Bond: but then we wouldn't need java interop thus interfaces right .. the whole OOP thing
15:16	hcumberd`	OpenJDK may help
15:17	Mr_Bond	wingy: is that a good thing or bad thing? :)
15:17	wingy	no OOP!
15:17	wingy	OOP is bad
15:17	hcumberd`	-> more kind of a bad thing when you ask me
15:17	Raptum	lol
15:17	hcumberd`	lol^2
15:17	Mr_Bond	hehe
15:17	wingy	Rich said so
15:17	Raptum	hence why this isn't #java?
15:17	borkdude	Clojure is build using an OOP language, so it can't be that bad right? ;)
15:18	Raptum	borkdude: sure it can
15:18	Raptum	oh
15:18	Raptum	oops didn't see the sarcasm
15:18	hcumberd`	Maybe I'll need a guide. How to migrate from Clojure to Java
15:19	Mr_Bond	If clojure ran outside jvm, wouldn't it just be another lisp?
15:19	hcumberd`	Mr_Bond: Clojure is more than that
15:19	hcumberd`	STM,..
15:19	wingy	lazyness
15:19	wingy	datomic and light table!
15:19	Mr_Bond	hm yeah maybe
15:19	ivaraasen	drugs!
15:20	wingy	Rich!
15:20	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen, that sounds very norwegian-like:)
15:20	Raptum	'baccer!
15:20	ivaraasen	Mr_Bond: probably
15:20	hcumberd`	You can feel the jvm
15:20	hcumberd`	from startup times to memory consumption
15:21	ivaraasen	speaking of drugs, I wonder what kind of drugs the guys that made this CSV file were using
15:21	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: kult at det er flere nordmenn her :)
15:21	Mr_Bond	do you mean in a good or bad way?
15:21	wingy	but then sometimes i agree that using a platform is a good choice
15:22	Mr_Bond	maybe he was high on baby jesus
15:22	wingy	like i am using jquery mobile instead of doing native apps
15:22	ivaraasen	well, tons of filler stuff (........... everywhere), many lines are empty, not everything is aligned correctly, and some fields are split over two-three lines
15:23	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: ah, I think that drug is trending, because last week I got an email written entirely in the Subject field.
15:24	ivaraasen	Mr_Bond: SSB har skylda for den fila, forøvrig :)
15:24	Mr_Bond	Statan!
15:25	ivaraasen	Mr_Bond: UiO or NTNU?
15:25	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: I'm at Copyleft Solutions
15:26	ivaraasen	nice!
15:27	Mr_Bond	But working at a lisp-shop, I'm not actually a lisp-programmer. It's something I've learned for fun in my spare time, I work with system administration
15:31	ivaraasen	I mostly do Clojure for quick data hacking myself. I'm really a journalist/editor.
15:32	Raynes	Everything I say is off the record.
15:33	Raynes	I've always wanted to say that to a journalist.
15:33	hcumberd`	;)
15:35	ivaraasen	Raynes: as far as journalists are concerned, people are always on record ;)
15:35	Raynes	I know. :(
15:36	ivaraasen	I really don't get tech journalism though
15:36	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: cool :)
15:37	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: do you freelance or work for some publisher?
15:38	ivaraasen	Mr_Bond: I'm planning on doing some freelance writing soon
15:39	ivaraasen	ATM I'm way too busy reading for my exams though
15:41	Raynes	ivaraasen: You can interview me whenever you like, friend. I'm all the rave everywhere.
15:42	ivaraasen	Raynes: sure thing. Refheap looks really good, btw
15:42	Raynes	<3
15:42	ivaraasen	https://www.refheap.com/paste/62330608de0bf0a395eb59d30
15:43	ivaraasen	horrible code, but the CSV file was even worse
15:43	Raynes	CSV.
15:43	ivaraasen	thank god we have Google Refine these days
15:43	Raynes	I've got to do some stuff with csv at work.
15:44	Raynes	Thinking about quitting and cleaning windshields instead.
15:46	ivaraasen	nobody deserves CSV, with the possible exception of Sweden
15:51	ivaraasen	the by-year function is quite handy. turns a nested map like {:a {:a1 1 :a2 2} ... :z {:a1 3 :a2 666 }} into {:a1 {:z 3 :a 1} :a2 {:z 666 :a 2}}.
15:51	ivaraasen	there's probably a built-in for that, but I couldn't find it
15:53	TimMc	"Don't quote me on this."
15:54	Mr_Bond	ivaraasen: hehe
15:59	gfredericks	does anybody know about the official supportedness of js/foo and js* in cljs?
16:07	TimMc	Is anything ever official in CLJS land?
16:07	TimMc	I haven't followed too closely, but I don't recall a 1.0 release.
16:08	mpenet	I think I have heard a few times not to use js*
16:08	TimMc	or an official doc site, which is more relevant
16:08	mpenet	js/FOO is probably here to stay otherwise you dont get access to the js world
16:08	mpenet	well the global scope
16:13	gfredericks	yeah I think that about summarizes what I've heard about the issue as well
16:25	wei_	is there a good way to test cemerick/friend with context, similar to noir's with-noir macro?
16:41	Raptum	how could i perform something like this and flatten the resulting list? http://ideone.com/lqycdM
16:43	Raynes	Raptum: What is the end result supposed to look like?
16:43	Raptum	the same thing, but flattened; never mind, someone got it for me: http://ideone.com/IwWLgX
16:44	Raynes	Raptum: That function is in clojure.core btw.
16:44	Raptum	i know.
16:44	Raynes	Just checking.
16:44	Raptum	interlace or something
16:44	Raptum	interleave*
16:46	ivaraasen	I guess you could use mapcat vector as well, to avoid explicit recursion
16:48	gfredericks	the golden rule of clojurescript: "It's not just JavaScript!"
16:49	TimMc	™
16:49	nightfly_	Java interop doesn't always seem to behave as expected. ConfigurationBuilder.setScanners(s ...) expects something that implements the Scanner interface, which ResourcesScanner does. But line 20 fails with a ClassCastException. https://www.refheap.com/paste/7225
16:49	gfredericks	:)
16:50	bbloom	nightfly_: do you want -> or do you want 'doto ?
16:51	TimMc	Line 20 shouldn't fail on the basis of that, though.
16:51	bbloom	TimMc: you're right, didn't realize that line 19 was commented out
16:52	bbloom	nightfly_: do you have javadocs or source for any of those types? would need to look at the methods to say what's going wrong
16:53	nightfly_	Yeah, http://reflections.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/reflections/javadoc/apidocs/index.html?org/reflections/Reflections.html
16:54	holo	hi
16:54	clojurebot	Huh?
16:54	gfredericks	does having reified types in cljs for keywords and symbols have prohibitively poor performance?
16:54	TimMc	nightfly_: varargs
16:54	TimMc	nightfly_: I could have told you that if you'd provided the message of the exception.
16:54	TimMc	~varargs
16:54	clojurebot	varargs is a fiction of the Java compiler -- from Clojure, you'll need to pass in an array of the appropriate type. See into-array and float-array, etc.
16:54	dnolen	gfredericks: unknown, but I doubt it.
16:55	bbloom	TimMc: beat me to it :-)
16:55	gfredericks	dnolen: is that an eventual want then?
16:55	TimMc	Though actually, I could have guessed based on the method name being plural.
16:55	dnolen	gfredericks: yes
16:55	gfredericks	dnolen: with interning as well?
16:56	bbloom	gfredericks: I took a crack at it quite a while ago and couldn't quite get performance up to snuff, but that's probably my fault, not the approach
16:56	dnolen	gfredericks: that's the idea yes.
16:56	nightfly_	TimMc: bbloom Ah! Didn't know that, thank you.
16:57	gfredericks	bbloom: do you have a branch somewhere?
16:57	bbloom	gfredericks: https://github.com/brandonbloom/clojurescript/commits/keywords-and-symbols
16:58	bbloom	gfredericks: totally hacked up attempt
16:58	gfredericks	bbloom: cool, thanks
16:58	bbloom	gfredericks: you gonna take a shot at making it work? :-)
16:59	bbloom	gfredericks: I forget now, but I think the main performance issue was that identical? was no longer a sufficient test and = needed to be used to support runtime keywords, symbols, etc
16:59	bbloom	because javascript doesn't have weak references
16:59	bbloom	so each runtime keyword or symbol would be a memory leak if interned, which was unacceptable
16:59	gfredericks	bbloom: oh so we don't want to intern the runtime ones as well?
16:59	gfredericks	I see
16:59	gfredericks	that is tricky then.
16:59	bbloom	yeah, really tricky
17:00	gfredericks	shouldn't that be no worse than what happens currently?
17:00	gfredericks	presumably (= kw1 kw2) checks identical? first and then walks through the strings?
17:00	gfredericks	(at least at the vm level)
17:01	bbloom	gfredericks: except there's a function call overhead (generally) as well as a protocol dispatch on not identical?
17:01	gfredericks	and interning would just give you an identical?-hit more often?
17:02	gfredericks	clj-jvm keywords use weak refs?
17:03	murphy_	good evening! I was doing a bit of work on 4clojure.org and for the solution to problem 19 (find the last element in a sequence without using "last"), one of the reference solutions was' reduce #(-> %2) ' can someone help me understand what that means?
17:03	bbloom	gfredericks: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Keyword.java#L37
17:03	gfredericks	bbloom: I might well play with it after tuesday; I'd like to contribute in some way or another; so far I've not exceeded too well.
17:04	murphy_	e.g. what does the sigil "->" mean ? I read somewhere that it's some sort of stream operator, but googling for it is proving somewhat unproductive
17:04	bbloom	(doc doc)
17:04	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
17:04	bbloom	(doc ->)
17:04	clojurebot	"([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
17:04	murphy_	woah! Thank you!
17:04	bbloom	while you're at it, if you've never read through `man man` you really ought to :-)
17:04	gfredericks	bbloom: I saw that band once
17:05	murphy_	haha
17:05	bbloom	heh
17:05	gfredericks	only by accident though
17:05	Raynes	This is a pretty horrid use of -> for the purpose is keeping number of characters as low as possible.
17:05	gfredericks	#(-> %) is short for identity I imagine?
17:05	murphy_	yeah, of course, but I figure it'll come into play later and I want to understand it
17:05	gfredericks	though why you'd want to (reduce identity ...) I can't imagine
17:06	bbloom	well it was %2
17:06	gfredericks	oh right
17:06	bbloom	which seems odd too
17:06	AimHere	Well the idea is that he's just using reduce to get to the last element of a list
17:06	gfredericks	(reduce #(-> %2) ...) should be equivalent to last then?
17:07	gfredericks	but last is a shorter way to say that
17:07	AimHere	Right, but your 4clojure problem is set in a world where the 'last' command has been outlawed by Rich Hickey, in a fit of spite
17:07	gfredericks	lol
17:07	gfredericks	of course
17:08	murphy_	hahaha
17:08	seangrove	Impressive amount of spite to do that, hah
17:08	AimHere	Clojure's collections are SOOO good, they should never ever end
17:09	TimMc	Commit message: "'last is a sign you're using the wrong data structure; removed"
17:09	bbloom	#(drop (count (butlast %)) %)
17:09	AimHere	Just evaluate them lazily
17:09	bbloom	#(first (drop (count (butlast %)) %))
17:09	bbloom	,(#(first (drop (count (butlast %)) %)) [1 2 3 4 5])
17:09	clojurebot	5
17:09	bbloom	w00t.
17:09	TimMc	,(reduce #(do %2) [1 2 3 4 5])
17:09	clojurebot	5
17:10	TimMc	do is just as good as -> here
17:10	bbloom	,(first (reverse [1 2 3 4 5]))
17:10	clojurebot	5
17:10	bbloom	i think that's shorter :-)
17:10	bbloom	and slower.
17:11	TimMc	(comp peek vec)
17:12	bbloom	anyway, gfredericks you'll also need to emit pre-interned symbols and keywords for all those known statically to be in use at compile time
17:13	ivaraasen	TimMc: or maybe even #(% (dec count %)) vec
17:17	TimMc	,(#(% (dec count %)) vec [1 2 3 4 5])
17:17	clojurebot	#<CompilerException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$dec, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:17	TimMc	NOPE.
17:18	TimMc	but I like your style.
17:19	ivaraasen	err, typo. sorry
17:19	ivaraasen	,(#(% (dec (count %))) [1 2 3 4 5])
17:19	clojurebot	5
17:20	ivaraasen	,(#((into [] %) (dec (count %))) [1 2 3 4 5])
17:20	clojurebot	5
17:20	ivaraasen	bulletproof version
17:20	ivaraasen	in case you get, say, a list
17:21	mpenet	,(#(first (take-last 1 %)) [1 2 3])
17:21	clojurebot	3
17:21	mpenet	it's almost cheating, ok
17:22	gfredericks	bbloom: right; and that part you didn't do?
17:24	Sgeo	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.walk/macroexpand-all
17:24	Sgeo	Is there a significant chance that Cubic didn't see my quote mark?
17:26	bbloom	gfredericks: i hacked it up for perf testing: had a manual list of symbols to intern iirc
17:32	gfredericks	ah ha
17:32	holo	i'm new to tests. i just noticed i can't test a hidden function. am i supposed to not need to test them, so this wouldn't be addressed as a problem at all?
17:33	bbloom	holo: you can access privates via their vars
17:34	bbloom	(defn- secret-f [x] (inc x))
17:34	bbloom	(#'secret-f 5)
17:35	holo	bbloom, that's super cool. thanks!
17:47	zilti	Exception in thread "main" java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/tools/macro__init.class or clojure/tools/macro.clj on classpath
17:47	zilti	What might cause this error?
17:48	seangrove	technomancy: Having troubles pushing a clojur app to Heroku, getting errors that "Failed to transfer file: http://s3pository.herokuapp.com/maven-central/commons-pool/commons-pool/1.6/commons-pool-1.6.pom. Return code is: 503, ReasonPhrase:Service Unavailable: Back-end server is at capacity."
17:48	nightfly_	Well, solved my real problem. It seems that an uncatched exception is raised when initializing a java class clojure reports it the first time and after that just doesn't acknowledge the class exists. The problem was in the java code the whole time :/
17:49	nightfly_	s/ an / when an /
17:55	gfredericks	the himera synonyms page claims that nested mapping over lazy seqs only traverses something once??
17:55	lazybot	gfredericks: Definitely not.
17:55	gfredericks	And I think Sgeo was claiming that about clj-jvm yesterday (though I convinced him otherwise)
17:55	gfredericks	where does that idea come from? is there anything to it?
17:56	Sgeo	...I thought you just convinced me that it doesn't actually save work unless you only take a part of the result
17:57	gfredericks	right
17:57	gfredericks	but it looks like fogus is saying the same thing you did
17:57	Sgeo	That's different from saying that the it's traversing multiple times
17:57	gfredericks	well you can imagine that it walks them both at the same time, but it's not an interesting thing to point out performance-wise, as I understand it
17:58	gfredericks	(it's at the top of the Lazy Sequences section here http://himera.herokuapp.com/synonym.html)
17:58	Sgeo	It is an interesting thing to point out when it comes to "now I take the first three elements from the result"
17:59	gfredericks	definitely, but his example doesn't have that characteristic
17:59	Sgeo	Well, if someone already knows about lazy lists, it's a good thing to point out
18:01	gfredericks	I wonder if it has positive effects on memory access due to locality
18:05	gfredericks	is there any decent way to use cljs-HEAD with lein-cljsbuild? checkouts doesn't seem to work since cljs isn't a lein project
18:06	wingy	is 5000 LoC much for a project
18:06	ivan	wingy: depends on if you've got multiple projects in your project
18:06	gfredericks	wingy: depends on what the project is for
18:06	wingy	ivan: No
18:07	wingy	gfredericks: its a SAAS
18:07	gfredericks	yes anything above 2744 is always too much
18:08	seangrove	Anyone else able to deploy Clojure apps to Heroku? Was going to announce Jida on the ml, but now it seems we can't push anymore, and it's down.
18:09	wingy	gfredericks: ? :)
18:10	gfredericks	wingy: delete linebreaks until you're below that threshhold.
18:11	ivan	a weird thing I've seen twice in Clojure projects now is a completely unnecessary macro that duplicates a function
18:11	ivan	not always obvious until you actually try to refactor and notice that it's 100% redundant
18:13	gfredericks	(undefmacro ...)
18:13	ivan	heh
18:43	omarkj	Hey.
18:43	omarkj	I was wondering if anyone could explain this to me (I'm new at clojure so I might be unwrapping this to the wrong expression) https://gist.github.com/4f90605e5978fd7d9db4
18:50	omarkj	I would have expected those arrays to match that is.
18:56	omarkj	Wrong operator - sorry.
19:40	Sgeo	As much as I hate to admit it, I'm starting to see advantages to clojure.algo.monads
19:41	gfredericks	over other monadic libs or over not monads?
19:41	Sgeo	Over other monadic libs
19:42	Sgeo	Although the only other one I know of is protocol-monads
19:42	gfredericks	I haven't looked at algo.monads since I decided I understand monads more than I don't
19:42	hcumberd`	Any better way to write: (filter #(some #{(tx_basename %)} order) (filter #(= (fs/extension %) ".opt") files))
19:43	hcumberd`	nesting filter looks wired
19:43	kaoD_	any good source on WTF are monads?
19:43	gfredericks	hcumberd`: you can unnest with ->> at least
19:43	gfredericks	but since they're both filters
19:43	gfredericks	you could also just combine the filter functions
19:43	kaoD_	I read it some time ago but apparently I couldn't grasp the concept, because I coudln't explain it if I tried
19:43	gfredericks	kaoD_: I read several things and they didn't really make sense until I tried to actually write some haskell code
19:43	spaceships	i wonder what they mean outside of haskell
19:43	mdeboard	Hi, I'm preparing an example illusrating agents for a presentation, and I'm having trouble articulating why my example code works the way it does. The comments on lines 21-25 are what I could use a hand with.
19:43	mdeboard	https://gist.github.com/4191817
19:43	bbloom	kaoD_: http://www.intensivesystems.net/tutorials/monads_101.html
19:44	gfredericks	specifically I read LYAH and did a lot of project euler
19:44	gfredericks	hcumberd`: you could combine them abstractly with every-pred, or just use and
19:45	kaoD_	gfredericks: yep, Haskell's in my huge-pile-of-thing-to-do
19:45	kaoD_	I guess this is the perfect excuse to look into it :)
19:45	kaoD_	bbloom: thanks
19:45	gfredericks	~monad
19:45	clojurebot	monad is "yea, though I should walk in the valley of imperative code, I shall fear no evil, for your monad comforts me" - seen in #haskell
19:45	gfredericks	~monad
19:45	clojurebot	monad is monads
19:46	gfredericks	~monad
19:46	clojurebot	monad is monads
19:46	bbloom	~monads
19:46	clojurebot	monads are http://www.bolour.com/papers/monads-through-pictures.html
19:46	gfredericks	WAT
19:46	mdeboard	Basically, WITH the `(apply await-for ...)' line, the return value is the return value of the `(touch)' fn; otherwise it's the return value of the last line of `(make-files)'. So I assume that the evaluation of `(touch)' is the last thing to be processed in this example, which is why, given time, its value is what's returned.
19:46	mdeboard	"degenerate monad producer" sounds like a job title your mother wouldn't be proud to tell peopl you have
19:48	kaoD_	I've read like 15 definitions of "monad"
19:48	kaoD_	and most of them are orthogonal
19:48	spaceships	a typeclass that implements bind and return :P
19:48	mdeboard	kaoD_: The guys in #haskell have a lot of jokes around people trying to define monads
19:49	mdeboard	it's a something soemthing functor something donald knuth
19:49	mdeboard	that's all I know.
19:49	kaoD_	pffft hahahaha
19:49	Sgeo	A monad is a monoid in the category of endofunctors, what's the problem?
19:49	Sgeo	Also, a monad is like a burrito
19:49	mdeboard	astronaut*
19:49	bbloom	extremely simply: it's an interface with three functions that happen to have interesting compositional behavior
19:49	gfredericks	a comonad is like a fajita
19:49	bbloom	that's it.
19:49	Sgeo	A monad is a burrito that has eaten an astronaut.
19:50	mdeboard	nailed it.
19:50	gfredericks	a fajito that has eaten a cosmonaut
19:50	gfredericks	s/fajito/fajita/
19:50	Sgeo	Sorry. It's just that a lot of people seem to write monad tutorials, many of which try to use analogies, and there's so many that there are jokes about them
19:51	mdeboard	Anyway, anyone have a clearer explanation of my example than I can muster?
19:51	mdeboard	https://gist.github.com/4191817
19:51	mdeboard	lines 21-25
19:51	kaoD_	okay I hate y'all
19:51	gfredericks	Sgeo: in my experince every talk/article about monads starts by complaining about all the talks/articles about monads
19:51	kaoD_	well not you all, but most of you
19:51	Sgeo	kaoD_, sorry
19:52	kaoD_	Sgeo: don't worry, I like astronauts
19:54	Sgeo	Um, I don't see clojure.tools.macro on Clojars
19:54	Sgeo	How am I supposed to obtain it?
19:54	bbloom	~contribs
19:54	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:54	bbloom	~contrib
19:54	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
19:54	bbloom	how do i teach clojurebot things?
19:54	bbloom	clojurebot: contribs is contrib
19:54	clojurebot	Alles klar
19:54	bbloom	~contrib
19:54	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
19:55	bbloom	~contribs
19:55	clojurebot	contribs is contrib
19:55	bbloom	:-)
19:56	Sgeo	Should I just use it from maven?
19:57	Sgeo	Guess I can try it
20:02	tomoj	http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Ctools.macro
20:03	tomoj	e.g. for a conkeror webjump, "http://search.maven.org/#search\%7Cga\%7C1\%7C%s", maybe something similar for other browsers (?)
20:03	Sgeo	clojure.tools.macro/mexpand does NOT macroexpand inner forms
20:04	tomoj	yeah, sorry, that was misinfo
20:04	tomoj	well, you need mexpand-all
20:04	tomoj	but I think your problem with &env will still be there
20:05	Sgeo	Yes, it is.
20:06	Sgeo	But there is a way to do a (not full) macroexpansion and pass it an &env
20:07	Sgeo	user=> (#'get-env '(get-env) {'a 1})
20:07	Sgeo	{(quote a) a}
20:08	tomoj	hmm.. consider (defmacro foo [& body] `(let [~'foo 42] ~@body)). then (foo (env-using-macro))
20:12	Sgeo	How many forms change the &env of their bodies, and do any macros actually use the values of the &env rather than just the keys?
20:13	tomoj	I don't know how you could use the values if you wanted
20:13	tomoj	in clojurescript the &env is very useful
20:13	tomoj	and some macros will do a lot with it :(
20:14	tomoj	in clojure I think (hope?) just let* and loop* change &env
20:14	Sgeo	fn and variants too
20:14	tomoj	oh yeah
20:14	tomoj	fn, let, loop*?
20:15	Sgeo	What about bound-fn and variants? Do those just expand to ultimately fn*?
20:15	bbloom	Sgeo: i use both &env and &form for my CPS transform in cljs
20:16	bbloom	i need to know if a macro is expanded into a return position, for example
20:16	Sgeo	bbloom, but the question is, do you somehow change what the body sees without using let* fn* or loop* ?
20:16	Sgeo	Wait, you're already doing CPS transforms?
20:16	Sgeo	I assume you must use a macroexpander?
20:17	bbloom	Sgeo: not finished: https://github.com/brandonbloom/cljs-cps/
20:17	bbloom	i rely on the cljs analyzer's expanding
20:17	Sgeo	(My main interest here is CPS)
20:17	Sgeo	Ah
20:17	gfredericks	is there anything published about typed-clojure for cljs yet?
20:18	bbloom	Sgeo: i don't need the CPS transform quite yet (eventually) so i put it on the back burner for now
20:18	Sgeo	It would be nice if Clojure just exposed its internal macroexpansion
20:18	bbloom	Sgeo: I was also waiting for various patches to land in cljs proper that were blocking me
20:19	bbloom	not strictly necessary, since you need the AST info to macro expand
20:20	bbloom	Sgeo: you can just run the analyzer and you get back an AST
20:20	bbloom	then simply (:form ast)
20:20	bbloom	and you've got a fully macroexpanded form
20:20	Sgeo	bbloom, what analyzer?
20:20	tomoj	so in cljs, using the analyzer on (foo (env-using-macro)) works fine
20:20	bbloom	the clojurescript analyzer
20:20	Sgeo	bbloom, was talking Clojure
20:21	bbloom	ah
20:21	bbloom	well any patches that make the clojurescript analyzer more useful for clojure code would surely be appreciated :-)
20:21	tomoj	but in clojure there is no working mexpand-all for that?
20:21	bbloom	im not as familiar with the internals of clojure itself
20:21	bbloom	dunno
20:36	tomoj	Sgeo: looks like you can do (with-bindings {clojure.lang.Compiler/LOCAL_ENV env} (macroexpand-1 form))
20:37	tomoj	but that doesn't completely solve the problem, does it
20:56	Sgeo	tomoj, hmm, in what sense?
20:57	jkdufair	does anyone have apps deployed on heroku? mine died, unchanged, apparently due to s3pository being down
20:58	tomoj	Sgeo: you can define a (fn macroexpand-1 [form env]) which binds LOCAL_ENV to allow passing the env down, but if you macroexpand-1 something and wind up with a let*, you still have no easy way of recursively macroexpanding it
21:02	Sgeo	Determine what the env should be inside the let* and call macroexpand-1 with that on the inside?
21:04	Sgeo	I need to stop thinking about this and work on Senior Project
21:24	bbloom	did somebody mention that they were working on a toy version of datomic?
21:31	black_joe	So earlier #clojure helped me fix some problems in my language. It's now fixed for anyone that liked the sounds of it earlier. http://dymatic.github.com/MicroMarkup/
21:31	black_joe	It's a static language for Clojure data structures.
21:36	tomoj	black_joe: seems pretty difficult to understand what it is
21:38	black_joe	It just seperates data from source files. Kind of like a database, but with lists and maps instead of tables.
21:38	Sgeo	Oh dear god "instance cool object named y that came from x" I'm scare
21:38	Sgeo	scared
21:39	black_joe	lol, inline documentation. Yup.
21:40	tomoj	what does it give you over just putting clojure data in those data files?
21:41	black_joe	Easy human readability and typing, mainly.
21:41	black_joe	And less syntax-to-content ration for large structures.
21:41	black_joe	ratio*
21:41	Sgeo	I wrote a bot in Tcl, and its configuration files are arrays
21:42	Sgeo	It makes those files very readable
21:42	Sgeo	server irc.example.com
21:42	Sgeo	channel #example
21:42	Sgeo	etc
21:42	Sgeo	It does get kind of bad in another of the files, though
21:42	bbloom	Tcl is an under appreciated language
21:42	Sgeo	feeds {abc def}
21:43	Sgeo	abc,url http://example.com
21:43	Sgeo	bbloom, Tcl is awesome
21:43	bbloom	the idea of a command-by-default language is brilliant
21:43	bbloom	just like ERB is just like a ruby file that is in template mode by default
21:43	bbloom	Tcl is a language that is in shorthand command usage mode by default
21:43	bbloom	it's clever
21:45	Sgeo	I think I would rather have top-level commands be wrapped in []. Or an id command that isn't some obtuse usage of something else
21:46	Sgeo	What I really like about Tcl is the lack of what Lispers would call special forms
21:46	Sgeo	Everything is a command
21:46	Sgeo	And you can pass code (albeit as a string, which kind of sucks) to commands, and you can generate parts of that code on the fly
21:49	seangrove	What's the best way to dynamically invoke a function name known only at runtime in cljs?
21:50	seangrove	Something like ((str service "-menu") menu-data)
21:50	bbloom	seangrove: there isn't one
21:50	bbloom	seangrove: not if you want to use advanced compilation anyway
21:50	seangrove	I could put all of the fn's into a map and call them from there, but not sure if that's best practice
21:50	seangrove	Hmm
21:50	bbloom	seangrove: yes, do that for the subset of functions you expect to call dynamically by name
21:50	bbloom	or seek an alternative approach
21:50	seangrove	ok, that works
21:51	seangrove	There will only be ~30 of them, not a big deal, just wondering
21:51	bbloom	use aset and aget
21:51	bbloom	on a (js-obj)
21:52	seangrove	Or I could do: (defn stripe-menu ...) (defn another-menu ...) (def menu-fns {:stripe stripe-menu :another :another-menu})
21:52	seangrove	Ultimately it'd be the same performance characteristics, right?
21:52	bbloom	roughly
21:52	seangrove	No big gotchas?
21:53	bbloom	if you plan on having a never changing map, a single (def menu-fns (js-obj "stripe" stripe-menu …))
21:53	bbloom	that would perform best, most likely
21:53	seangrove	Yeah, never changing
21:53	bbloom	aget on that
21:53	seangrove	Sounds good, thanks
22:02	seangrove	,(doseq [item (map identity [123 123 123 ])] (fn [x] (println x )))
22:02	clojurebot	nil
22:02	seangrove	Well, yes, that should be nil
22:03	seangrove	But it seems like the side-effects aren't carried out - println isn't called in my repl
22:03	seangrove	Ahk
22:03	seangrove	Yes, nevermind, stupid mistake
22:06	clj_newb_2345	is it possible, through soem reflection Matic, to get from a defrecord to it's type? I.e .I have (defrecord Foo []), (defrecord a (Foo.)) ; now, given "a", I want to recover either Foo. or ->Foo
22:11	unnali	clj_newb_2345 (though absent): (class (Foo.)) does yield Foo
22:11	unnali	(which you can then call (new …) on)
22:12	Sgeo	I thought new only accepts symbols, you can't pass a dynamically found class?
22:12	Sgeo	,(new (class []))
22:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: (class []), compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:14	unnali	Yeah, so you're right.
22:14	unnali	Not certain how one is meant to do that, but I'm sure there's a way.
22:15	Sgeo	This is why I like Tcl.
22:21	echo-area	Nrepl is much easier set up than ritz. I haven't tested if it requires as much memory as ritz though.
22:34	gfredericks	augh
22:34	gfredericks	advanced compilation is refusing to work :/
22:34	gfredericks	(with jquery)
22:34	muhoo	externs?
22:34	gfredericks	yep
22:34	gfredericks	got the jquery externs file, have it listed in the project.clj...no evidence it's being used
22:35	gfredericks	it is in /resources/externs/jquery-1.8.js
22:35	muhoo	dunno then, sorry.
22:35	gfredericks	and the build in project.clj has {:compiler {... :externs ["externs/jquery-1.8.js"]}}
22:37	gfredericks	ah; I don't think the leaving off of /resources was a good idea
22:37	gfredericks	I think I might send a pull request for the jayq readme :)