#clojure – 2012-12-01

2012-12-01

01:09	Sgeo__	Is there a way for me to make my own Var$Unbound?
01:09	Sgeo__	better yet, unbound var with no particular name
01:14	Raynes	Sgeo__: Why?
01:19	Raynes	Sgeo__: (defn who-cares [] (let [s (gensym)] (intern ns s) @(resolve s))) Could do something like this. You said with no particular name, but does it matter if it's a random gensym?
01:20	Raynes	You'd have to create a Var with no name to create an Unbound with no name. Not sure if that is possible.
01:20	Raynes	Wuh, I guess you can.
01:21	Raynes	Sgeo__: (clojure.lang.Var$Unbound. (clojure.lang.Var/create))
01:21	Raynes	This seems to work.
01:22	Sgeo__	Neat
01:22	Raynes	Now tell me why damn it.
01:22	Raynes	I can't bear the suspense.
01:22	Sgeo__	Oh, as for the why: It seems like it might be a good way to represent a lazy value that has not been calculated yet
01:22	Sgeo__	Or at least, semantically I feel like it makes some sort of sense
01:22	Raynes	Isn't that a promise?
01:23	Sgeo__	How does letfn work?
01:23	Sgeo__	Probably does make more sense to do a promise, I guess
01:24	Sgeo__	But then you have to @ the promise, unlike with the var, where... uh, I guess you do need to deref that too unless it's storing a fn
01:36	jondavidjohn	Anyone willing to help review a clojure novice's code? .... http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/19203/2776
01:44	tomoj	I wonder why clj-http won't parse json bodies of responses with 'exceptional' status
01:52	muhoo	i'd use cheshire for the json parsing
03:46	philr_	Hello friends. I have a newbie question: why don't my for loops work in core.clj?
03:49	andrewmcveigh	philr_: If you post your code that's not working (and the error if there is one) to a pastebin like refheap, we might be able to help better.
03:49	philr_	Sure. I have a minimal example.
03:49	philr_	Let me do that for you...
03:51	philr_	So I made a new project with "lein new app test". Then added this to the skeleton:
03:51	philr_	https://www.refheap.com/paste/7186
03:52	philr_	Now "lein run" prints "Hello, World!" and nothing else.
03:53	andrewmcveigh	OK, so... for is lazy, and as "println" doesn't return a value, and you're not using that (nil) value, (println x) is not being called.
03:53	philr_	Aha!
03:54	philr_	So... doseq?
03:54	andrewmcveigh	either use doseq in place of for (for "side-effecting" code)
03:54	andrewmcveigh	or, if for was to return a value, you can wrap it in doall to force the evaluation.
03:55	philr_	doseq it is. Boy is my face red. Thanks muchly!
03:55	andrewmcveigh	no probs.
04:52	Raynes	I haven't seen your code, but that's what I'm thinking based on your description.
04:53	ucb	ah, the top level invocation is like (-> client (fn1) (fn2) ...)
05:04	Raynes	Yes, you could change it to (when client (-> client (fn1) (fn2)))
05:04	Raynes	But
05:04	ucb	sure, but fn1 might close the connection and so fn2 gets nothing to work with
05:04	Raynes	If one computation relies on the result of the last one possibly being ni… Yes. Okay.
05:04	Raynes	You want -?> then.
05:04	ucb	yeah :)
05:05	ucb	great, thanks! \o/
05:06	bbloom	seems odd that a failed operation on a client causes nil to be returned rather than an error code or an exception or something
05:07	ucb	oh, not my choice, when the other party doesn't like a particular packet you send it it'll just close the connection
05:07	ucb	I could alternatively throw an exception in that case
05:07	philr_	Raynes: Yep. "lein new app test".
05:08	bbloom	ucb: what is "client" ? is that a type you've created?
05:08	ucb	well, I lie, it won't just close the connection, it'll let you know it didn't like your last message and close the connection
05:08	ucb	bbloom: it's the tcp-client in the aleph library
05:09	bbloom	ucb: tcp?
05:09	bbloom	ucb: or what protocol?
05:10	ucb	bbloom: tcp, yes
05:10	Raynes	bbloom: I think I'd prefer nil over an exception.
05:10	bbloom	Raynes: I'd prefer a status code :-P
05:11	ucb	I personally prefer nil too
05:11	Raynes	bbloom: Don't know what his purpose is, etc.
05:11	Raynes	He may not need a status code.
05:11	bbloom	yeah, fair enough
05:12	ucb	well, right now I'm working on the handshake, and its outcome is binary
05:12	ucb	I'm happy getting a nil at the end if it failed
05:12	ucb	otherwise, I get the client to start sending data
05:25	abp	Hm, can I, when getting passed forms in a macro, find unresolvable symbols in the forms? lexical bindings like let must be considered.
05:39	borkdude	any general advice in here whether to upgrade to 10.8 OSX? what would I gain from it (except for incompatibility problemsn)?
05:42	ucb	borkdude: you'd upgrade your wallet to a lighter one too
05:45	Apage43	you know, I did do the upgrade, and I can't think of anything it added that's really all that useful
05:48	Raynes	New notifications stuff.
05:48	Apage43	right. but most of the apps I wanted notifications from worked fine with growl
05:49	Raynes	It's still a significant improvement.
05:49	Apage43	shrug
05:49	Apage43	I did get iTunes 11
05:49	Raynes	Grown exists because this didn't exist.
05:50	clj_newb_2345	how do i dfine a *.clj file that is _auto included_ into every namespace? I want to have my own defn macro (which calls the clojure.core/defn) to be the default defn in all of my code
05:50	Apage43	I found that to be quite an improvement
05:51	Raynes	You can't.
05:52	clj_newb_2345	I can't?
05:52	clj_newb_2345	or someone else can't?
05:53	Raynes	You, sir, cannot.
05:53	clj_newb_2345	can clojure.core ahckers do this?
05:55	Raynes	I don't think anybody can do this.
05:56	clj_newb_2345	what if we got Gosling and Hickey working on it together; between rewriting Clojure and the JVM, would this be possible?
05:56	Apage43	it's not a language issue, I mean, it's just not a featue that's there
05:57	clj_newb_2345	what if Trovalds also joined the team so we could make changes ot the Linux kernel to support this
05:57	Apage43	namespaces pull in clojure.core by default and don't really provide a way to change or modify that
05:57	clj_newb_2345	and Grove joined too, so we couuld modify x86 instructions
05:57	clj_newb_2345	hmmm
05:57	clj_newb_2345	so basically, this wouuuld mean hacking "require"
05:57	Apage43	(ns)
05:57	Apage43	rather
05:57	clj_newb_2345	hmm
05:57	Raynes	Wow. Apple Reminders is amazingly sufficient.
05:58	clj_newb_2345	this is interesting, so I can just repalce the top of all files with
05:58	clj_newb_2345	(my-ns ........ )
05:58	Apage43	well no
05:58	clj_newb_2345	problem is, how do I get clojure to find (my-ns ... ) ?
05:58	Apage43	because (my-ns) won't be available
05:58	clj_newb_2345	since I need to define the function somewhere
05:58	clj_newb_2345	fuck
05:58	Apage43	as its not in clojure.core
05:58	clj_newb_2345	what if I added my-ns into clojure.core?
05:58	clj_newb_2345	then I'd be set
05:59	clj_newb_2345	I feel like this is similar to modifying the physics of the universe in order to make a red shirt look blue
05:59	Apage43	sure, but you'd have to make sure that happens before anything tries to load the files that use it
05:59	clj_newb_2345	hmm
05:59	clj_newb_2345	can I get lein to define my-ns for me?
05:59	Apage43	i imagine that could be problematic in general, especially so if you use AOT
06:00	Apage43	unless you're using AOT this is all mostly done at "run time"
06:00	clj_newb_2345	I do have one gen-class
06:00	clj_newb_2345	for a custom exception class I wrote
06:00	clj_newb_2345	everything else is not AOT
06:00	Apage43	anyway
06:01	Apage43	this is all very ugly and there's probably a … slightly.. less terrible way to accomplish the same thing
06:01	clj_newb_2345	alright
06:01	clj_newb_2345	I could spare an extra :use line
06:01	clj_newb_2345	at the start of every *.clj file
06:01	Apage43	I feel like there might be some http://www.perlmonks.org/index.pl?node_id=542341 going on
06:02	clj_newb_2345	i want to redefine defn
06:02	Apage43	why?
06:02	clojurebot	why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
06:02	clj_newb_2345	I want something like type hints, except it'sll be "type comment"
06:02	clj_newb_2345	i.e., it's not a thype hint, but it's just a short comment describiing the incoming type
06:03	clj_newb_2345	so I'd like something like (defn foo [ \n a "this is a House object" \n b "this is a Car object" ] ... )
06:03	clj_newb_2345	that's all
06:03	clj_newb_2345	wait wait, meant [\n a "this implements the House protocol" \n b "this impelments the Car protocol" ]
06:03	mpenet	you could just use metadata, no need to redefine things
06:04	clj_newb_2345	use metadata on the arguments of a defn?
06:04	clj_newb_2345	mpenet : can you paste sample code?
06:04	mpenet	on the fn itself
06:04	clj_newb_2345	I really want the comments "inline"
06:05	Apage43	(defn foo [^{:comment "My comment text"} arg1 ^{:comment "More comment text"} arg2])
06:05	Apage43	actually i think that gets thrown out
06:06	Apage43	ah, nope
06:06	mpenet	if that's just for information as clj_newb_2345 seems to want, this would be ok
06:07	Apage43	(meta (first (first (:arglists (meta #'foo))))) => {:comment "My comment text"}
06:07	Apage43	&(meta #'clojure.core/+)
06:07	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 920, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), :added "1.2", :inline-arities #<core$_GT_1_QMARK_ clojure.core$_GT_1_QMARK_@166f453>, :inline #<core$nary_inline$fn__3842 clojure.core$nary_... failed to paste: peer not authenticated
06:07	Apage43	the arg metadata you attach is on the symbols in :arglists there
06:08	Apage43	in fact, a type hint is just a metadata of the form {:tag theclass}
06:08	clj_newb_2345	(defmacro my-defn [fname args & body] `(defn ~fname ~(apply vector (map first (partition 2 args))) ~@body))
06:08	clj_newb_2345	that is all I need
06:08	clj_newb_2345	I don't use the multiple definition opption of defn
06:08	mpenet	Apage43: yes, type hints are under :tag
06:09	Apage43	clj_newb_2345: wait, you don't even want to keep the strings? You're just throwing them out?
06:10	clj_newb_2345	I don't wnat to keep this
06:10	clj_newb_2345	it's purely to make it easier for me to read
06:10	clj_newb_2345	I apologize if that was not clear.
06:10	clj_newb_2345	thanks to evere who helped talk me out of modifying clojure.core, I like this solution more :-)
06:10	Apage43	(defn foo [a #_"This will be ignored" b #_"so will this"] (+ a b))
06:10	Apage43	(foo 1 1) => 2
06:11	clj_newb_2345	lol
06:11	Apage43	Prefixing a thing with #_ causes it to be ignored
06:11	clj_newb_2345	reader macros
06:11	clj_newb_2345	I'm an idiot
06:11	clj_newb_2345	hmm
06:11	clj_newb_2345	this is even better ,no need to define a new macro
06:11	Sgeo__	,Float/NaN
06:11	clojurebot	NaN
06:13	Apage43	or just take the line break and use regular comments
06:13	Apage43	instead of almost hacking up everything =P
06:13	clj_newb_2345	man; this is brilliant
06:15	Apage43	This is the first time I've run into a place to use #_ though
06:16	clj_newb_2345	I like the ; more
06:16	clj_newb_2345	now my edditor even clorizes the type
06:16	clj_newb_2345	and I can do weird thigns like ; Hash<String, Hash<String, Animal>>
06:16	Apage43	right. this is almost certainly what you want
06:18	clj_newb_2345	this is fucking brilliant
06:18	clj_newb_2345	my code looks a little weird, since many functions are now 2-3x as long (due to the args eacn on it's own line)
06:18	clj_newb_2345	but I like it
06:42	ucb	are java integers 32 bits? (apologies if this is a stupid question)
06:42	ucb	more precisely, I'm wondering if rand-int Integer/MAX_VALUE will generate a 32-bit value
06:44	ucb	seems to be the case
06:46	Guest29562	@ucb The Java Specification says that it is: "The integral types are byte, short, int, and long, whose values are 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit and 64-bit signed two's-complement integers, respectively"
06:46	ucb	Guest29562: thanks!
06:54	borkdude	what is the clojure analogue of for example liftP in Haskell?
07:17	borkdude	hmm, is this really much of an improvement…? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7187
07:18	josteink	how do I do a case-insensitive substring search in clojure?
07:18	josteink	something akin to
07:18	josteink	(def windows (contains? os-name "windows")
07:22	andrewmcveigh	&(re-seq #"(?i)windows" "WinDOws blah blah ...")
07:22	lazybot	⇒ ("WinDOws")
07:24	borkdude	josteink what about smth like this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/7188
07:24	josteink	andrewmcveigh & borkdude: thanks both :)
07:25	borkdude	josteink you could do some preprocessing on the pattern to lowercase that as well
07:25	borkdude	andrewmcveigh solution is even better, always forget about re-seq
07:26	andrewmcveigh	re-seq is awesome :)
07:27	borkdude	yeah
07:27	rbarraud	Lambda is awesome; everything else is just derivative :-)
07:29	borkdude	there should be a +1 button on clojuredocs so you can look at the most popular functions ;)
07:30	borkdude	regex driven development
07:30	josteink	borkdude: that just feels dirty :)
07:30	borkdude	hehe
07:33	borkdude	re-seq and juxt… never forget about those
07:38	borkdude	(was note to self)
08:55	borkdude	Raynes hm, it only occured to me now, is your Twitter name inspired by the IO Monad?
09:50	tomoj	browser repl broken in r1535?
11:40	clojure-newb	hey guys… I'm doing : (map #(hash-map :key1 (first %) :key2 (nth % 1) :key3 (last %))) to build a hash-map out of a vector, which is fairly concise, but I don't like the nth, first and last, can I use destructuring in this form or do it another way ?
11:43	borkdude	(let [[a b c] v] #{:k1 a :k2 b :k3 c})
11:45	jeremyheiler	&(apply hash-map [:a 1 :b 2 :c 3])
11:45	jeremyheiler	would that work for you?
11:47	jeremyheiler	hmm no. sorry. your keys are not in yoru vector
11:48	jeremyheiler	perhaps use zipmap
11:48	jeremyheiler	,(zipmap [:key1 :key2 :key3] [1 2 3])
11:48	clojurebot	{:key3 3, :key2 2, :key1 1}
11:49	borkdude	,(apply hash-map (interleave [:a :b :c] v))
11:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: v in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:49	borkdude	multiple ways to go
11:50	clojure-newb	borkdude: that looks cool
11:50	borkdude	admittedly I like zipmap the best
11:50	borkdude	,(doc zipmap)
11:50	clojurebot	"([keys vals]); Returns a map with the keys mapped to the corresponding vals."
11:50	clojure-newb	jeremyheller: thats cool too
11:51	clojure-newb	so many ways, I've got loads to learn
11:51	jeremyheiler	clojure-newb, that's what makes it fun
11:52	jeremyheiler	there's always more to discover
11:52	clojure-newb	jeremyheiler: yeah, though sometimes I spend too long making it perfect instead of working on the real problem :-)
11:52	jeremyheiler	haha, you're not alone there!
12:03	borkdude	jeremyheiler that's the risk of such a cool language.. never done refactoring ;)
12:29	abev	bye
12:29	abev	quit
12:29	abev	exit
12:31	jondavidjohn	any clojure affcianados want to give me a quick code review? I'm just learning and want to make sure I'm leaning into the strengths of the language... http://codereview.stackexchange.com/q/19203/2776
12:34	gfredericks	ooh you could destructure decks
12:34	gfredericks	[deck1 deck2] (split-at middleish cards)
12:35	jondavidjohn	nice, so I wouldn't have to do nth
12:35	gfredericks	right
12:35	gfredericks	this thing needs line numbers
12:36	gfredericks	(->> (interleave deck1 deck2) flatten) is a somewhat superfluous use of ->>
12:36	gfredericks	it's not terrible though I can imagine liking it
12:37	gfredericks	indentation on overhand is bad
12:37	jondavidjohn	yeah, I think it reads well
12:37	gfredericks	(the if lines up with the parent let)
12:37	gtrak	do you guys know of a shortcut for ring-mock requests with session-cookies?
12:38	gfredericks	looks like you could stand to make a helper out of (partial partition-by (fn [_] (zero? (rand-int 2))))
12:38	gfredericks	I don't think (vec cards) gets you anything
12:39	gfredericks	oh wait
12:39	gfredericks	I had to scroll to see more code
12:40	jondavidjohn	I know functions use - as a word seperator, should bindings follow the same form?
12:40	gfredericks	yeah good point
12:40	gfredericks	I hadn't noticed that
12:40	gfredericks	underscores are generally just for interop with other systems that use them
12:40	jondavidjohn	ok, cool
12:41	tmciver	jondavidjohn: I think the use of flatten in riffle is redundant.
12:41	tmciver	interleave produces a seq
12:41	tmciver	,(interleave [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
12:41	gfredericks	calling seq in mongean is probably unnecessary as well
12:41	clojurebot	(1 4 2 5 3 ...)
12:42	gfredericks	indentation for the ->> form in pile is bad
12:42	jondavidjohn	tmciver: the decks are chunked with partition-by
12:42	tmciver	jondavidjohn: also, it looks like you don't use card_count in overhand.
12:43	gfredericks	I think most of the recursion can be done with recur to save stack space
12:44	jondavidjohn	I tried but it was throwing an error
12:44	gfredericks	wat.
12:44	jondavidjohn	do I need to reverse the if to use recur?
12:44	gfredericks	no
12:44	gfredericks	what error?
12:44	jondavidjohn	just swap out the calls
12:44	jondavidjohn	I'll test
12:45	jondavidjohn	nice, I guess it works fine
12:46	gfredericks	though now that I think about it maybe you'd consider it more natural to use iterate
12:46	gfredericks	rather than building the iteration into the shuffling functions
12:47	gfredericks	if you really like the API you have, you could (defn mongean ([cards] ...actual work...) ([cards times] (nth (iterate mongean cards) times))) I think
12:47	jondavidjohn	ahh, nice since it's built into the lang with iterate, i'll remove the recursion
12:48	gfredericks	recursion doesn't end up being necessary in clojure very often
12:48	gfredericks	loop is a class n00b-trap
12:48	jondavidjohn	(iterate (mongean [..]) 4) seems pretty natural
12:48	gfredericks	oh no that's not quite how iterate works
12:49	gfredericks	iterate returns an infinite lazy seq of [deck (mongean deck) (mongean (mongean deck)) ...]
12:49	gfredericks	so you can use nth to get the result you want
12:49	gfredericks	the second arg to iterate is the original deck
12:49	jondavidjohn	ahh
12:50	jondavidjohn	thanks!
12:51	gfredericks	np
12:51	jondavidjohn	lots of good stuff, still really impressed with how much I could accomplish in such terse (yet understandable) code..
12:53	tmciver	jondavidjohn: just curious, why do you do the (somewhat) complicated calculation of middleish in riffle? I would imagine you'd ideally want to used some kind of guassuan randomization of the middle position.
12:54	jondavidjohn	just my formulation of giving the splitting of the deck a reasonable margin of error based on deck size
12:54	jondavidjohn	with a minimum of 2
12:54	jondavidjohn	totally open to a better way
12:54	tmciver	ah, I think I see. You're choosing a random card within 10% of the center of the deck?
12:54	jondavidjohn	right
12:55	tmciver	cool
12:55	jondavidjohn	is there a more idiomatic way?
12:55	gfredericks	does anybody know about future plans for the js/foo and js* forms in cljs? Are they intended to be permanent?
12:56	jondavidjohn	also, I guess it's ok to do a lot of work in my let bindings?
12:56	jondavidjohn	most of the functions' work are done there
12:56	gfredericks	jondavidjohn: it's worth checking for refactoring opportunities, but not generally terrible
12:57	tmciver	jondavidjohn: yeah, that's typical.
12:57	jondavidjohn	i find it's a side effect of immutibility
12:57	jondavidjohn	at least that's what drove me in that direction
12:57	gfredericks	jondavidjohn: yeah; I think the main tradeoff is readability; so as long as you're satisfied with that, it's ok
12:58	jondavidjohn	cool, thanks again, both of you! later!
12:59	cg_morton	Hey clojure fans. Where would you recommend to start learning for someone with coding experience but who is new to Lisps?
13:00	gfredericks	4clojure is easy to get started with
13:00	Foxboron	cg_morton, clojure koans is awsome
13:00	Foxboron	I find them more fun then 4clojure
13:01	Foxboron	but, clojure koans needs leiningen to actually use them, so as gfredericks said, 4clojure is easier :)
13:01	cg_morton	I suspect I will want leiningen eventually
13:02	cg_morton	well anyway, I will check those out. Thanks!
13:19	jondavidjohn	gfredericks: ok... so run that iterate usage by me again? something like ... [cards times] (nth times (iterate (riffle cards) times) ?
13:20	jondavidjohn	or i mean ... [cards times] (nth times (iterate riffle cards)
13:20	jondavidjohn	O
13:22	tmciver	jondavidjohn: (nth (iterate riffle cards) times)
13:23	tmciver	to riffle the initial deck 'times' times.
13:23	gfredericks	crate's defpartial creates some interesting metadata and I'm curious if anybody understands the use case
13:24	gfredericks	jondavidjohn: just like tmciver said; also if you're interested you might enjoy pondering why ((apply comp (repeat times riffle)) cards) is equivalent
13:25	gfredericks	(I think iterate is more readable though)
13:25	jondavidjohn	I'll check it out
13:25	jondavidjohn	yeah, definitely a clean alternative to my recur
13:27	jondavidjohn	what if the iterating function has multiple arguments?
13:27	jondavidjohn	does it break down there?
13:27	gfredericks	yeah can't iterate that way
13:27	jondavidjohn	cool
13:27	gfredericks	you should be able to make it work by partially applying the rest of the args
13:27	gfredericks	like (iterate #(foo % n) cards)
13:37	hcumberdale	Hi ,)
13:40	jeremyheiler	hello, hcumberdale
13:40	muhoo	what are people using to create json services these days? wakeful? bishop? shoreleave? raw ring handlers?
13:41	muhoo	liberator? there are so many :-/
13:42	muhoo	sigh
13:43	gfredericks	wakeful looks crazy-simple, which is what I wanted in this instance
13:44	gfredericks	wait it also looks weird o_O
13:44	hhutch	muhoo: i am working with shoreleave right now, i was using fetch before, i like it
13:45	gfredericks	actually I don't want json at all I want edn
13:46	hhutch	if you are using clojurescript, i recommend shoreleave-remote
13:46	gfredericks	right now I want something that's under 10 lines
13:46	gfredericks	it's just for a demo
13:46	gfredericks	shoreleave looks too serious
13:47	gfredericks	I'll do compojure if nothing else
13:49	hhutch	gfredericks: my implementation is not at all 'serious' .. have you seen this? https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/demo-enfocus-pubsub-remote.git
13:49	hhutch	that's what i've been using for reference
13:50	gfredericks	hhutch: the src/depr/server.clj has a lot of noise in it for my use; the demo is focusing on the client-side, so I just want to setup the server as basically as possible
13:53	gfredericks	does anybody know if it's possible to override lein-cljsbuild's version of CLJS via an explicit dependency and lein checkouts?
13:53	gfredericks	lein deps :tree doesn't even list cljs :/
13:56	C-Keen	Hi! If anyone of you is visiting 29C3 in Hamburg this year, you may want to drop by at the lisper/schemer assembly. Maybe you want to spread some clojure love too by doing a workshop? Tell me or write it up on https://events.ccc.de/congress/2012/wiki/The_%28un%29employed_schemers_%26_lispers_guild. Thanks!
14:22	muhoo	shoreleave seems to have the weight of popularity behind it. but then so did/does noir, and i realized its limitations quickly enough :-/
14:23	seangrove	muhoo: I'm using shoreleave, but haven't used noir much - what limitations did you come across?
14:24	muhoo	it uses atoms and non-functional stuff to act like django, which was nice coming from that rails-y world, but then not so much.
14:24	muhoo	also lots of macros which don't compose so well.
14:25	muhoo	shoreleave looks heavy to me, and i'm suspicious of that now.
14:25	seangrove	Intersting, good to know
14:25	muhoo	maybe i shouldn't be.
14:25	seangrove	I'm only using shoreleave pubsub right now, it's been reasonably nice
14:25	seangrove	Can't speak to anything else though
14:27	muhoo	i'll try it. i'm thinking maybe before i try to wrap my brain around some big thing, i should try to solve the problem first with low-level tools, and only move up to something heavier once i find myself with a specific need to write something, and instead of reinventing that wheel myself.
14:28	seangrove	That's always a good approach
14:29	muhoo	right now my paid work is having to live inside the brains of the people who wrote android, and it's making me crazy. so that may be coloring my feelings about other things too, and not in a good way.
14:29	seangrove	I tried to get into cljs a year ago or so without having a good understanding of js, which was a big mistake
14:30	seangrove	Maybe it'll reasonable in the future, but it was important to build several very large apps in javascript before I was able to make the jump to cljs properly
14:30	muhoo	interesting, yes, sounds like the mistake i made of trying to learn clojure without understanding java :-)
14:30	seangrove	Heh, I still don't understand Java very well, but Clojure on that side is pretty robust to shield you from it for awhile
14:31	seangrove	It'll break down eventually, but I like that you can be productive and explore without a super deep Java background
14:31	muhoo	seangrove: wait until you get to this: http://chasemerick.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/choosingtypeforms2.png?w=640
14:35	seangrove	Well, I'm glad that story is there when needed, but it does look intimidating
14:37	muhoo	the clojurebook.com has a pretty good explanation of all that stuff. but, who knows, you could maybe get by a very long time without ever having to know it.
14:37	muhoo	mean, i still don't know X86 assembler :-)
14:37	seangrove	So far it's been reasonably easy to avoid interop beyond just insantiating basic classes
14:38	seangrove	But anyway, far more interested in cljs for the time being
14:38	seangrove	Thinking about trying to build a cljs around ember.js using the same techniques as jayq
14:38	muhoo	AVR assembler, yes. ARM assembler, yes. but x86 assembler looked so annoying to me i said i'd never learn it, and, so far, never have.
14:39	seangrove	Heh, is that what's holding you back now?
14:39	muhoo	that sounds interesting. i haven't used ember.js, but native cljs wrappers of stuff is A Good Thing.
14:39	seangrove	"Damn, if only I had learned x86 assembly!"
14:39	seangrove	(said few people, ever)
14:40	muhoo	if i were writing windoze viruses, maybe, then x86 assember would be necessary. but i've no interest in that world.
14:41	muhoo	avr assembler, however, is kind of fun (embedded microcontrollers), though it's been years.
14:48	seangrove	bbloom: You around?
14:49	bbloom	seangrove: what's up?
14:49	seangrove	Wanted to share: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50b9aa72e4b0b66235465dae
14:49	bbloom	oh neat, i'll check it out
14:50	seangrove	Made some progress, but the majority of it came from wei_
14:50	bbloom	heh, great, i'm an example :-)
14:51	muhoo	it uses bootstrap.js?
14:51	seangrove	muhoo: Yeah
14:51	seangrove	Well, not js, just the css, I think
14:52	bbloom	cool stuff
14:56	muhoo	wow dnolen@Davids-MacBook-Pro.local 738 commits!
14:57	muhoo	i dunno what kind of coffee he's drinking, but puts him far and away the most prolific committer
14:57	jonasen	seangrove: cool
14:57	p_l	muhoo: well... some git workflows create a lot of commits
14:57	jonasen	seangrove: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba5fe7e4b0d89fb0a4ae3f
14:57	p_l	muhoo: when you divide 738 by 20~30 commits a day...
14:57	bbloom	ooo that gives me an idea. lynaghk would doing some github-style graphs for that codeq project be a good test c2po?
14:58	bbloom	test for c2po, that is
14:58	muhoo	seangrove: very nice work.
15:00	seangrove	jonasen: Oh, good query
15:00	seangrove	muhoo: Thanks, but wei_ (in here sometimes) did most of the work
15:01	seangrove	I tink it's ready to share on the mailing list
15:01	bbloom	seangrove: jonasen anyway to do an order by on that?
15:01	jonasen	bbloom: not in datalog
15:02	jonasen	seangrove: bbloom: but the webapp could support ordering by column.. which would be useful
15:02	bbloom	could be part put up in the query param too :-)
15:03	seangrove	Hmm, wonder if that would be good
15:03	seangrove	An idea anyway, I'll add it to the wiki
15:04	jonasen	seangrove: what version of datomic are you running?
15:06	seangrove	jonasen: One second, I'll check
15:07	seangrove	datomic-free-0.8.3599
15:07	jonasen	seangrove: ok. Is it much work to update the peer library?
15:08	seangrove	I don't think so, no
15:08	seangrove	I'm actually not sure what part that is though, on reflection
15:09	seangrove	Is that the part that's running in-app, separate from the transactor?
15:14	jonasen	seangrove: in-app
15:14	jonasen	seangrove: find authors/committers http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba637ae4b0d89fb0a4ae40 http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba63d6e4b0d89fb0a4ae41
15:16	seangrove	jonasen: Very nice!
15:16	seangrove	Why do you ask about updating the peer library?
15:16	bbloom	anybody working on getting the clojurescript analyzer running so that we can query deeper into the code? :-)
15:17	jonasen	seangrove: a recent version has some new query features I wanted to try
15:18	jonasen	bbloom: I started once, but didn't get very far.
15:18	bbloom	jonasen: what stopped you?
15:19	jonasen	bbloom: I'm also working on a java analyzer: https://github.com/jonase/codeq/tree/java
15:19	jonasen	bbloom: macros.
15:20	bbloom	hmm yes, code execution is scary :-P
15:21	bbloom	jonasen: was the issue analyzing macros in clojure code since the cljs analyzer doens't support them?
15:22	jonasen	bbloom: well, I didn't care too much about that. But getting the analyzer to run at all wasn't as easy as I expected
15:22	bbloom	jonasen: yeah, the public interface isn't exactly publicly documented
15:23	jonasen	bbloom: since codeq works on one source file at a time the cljs analyzer can't find the files it needs
15:24	bbloom	hm, i see
15:26	seangrove	jonasen: Is this the latest library? https://clojars.org/com.datomic/datomic-free
15:26	seangrove	Happy to swap it out and push
15:28	jonasen	according to https://groups.google.com/d/topic/datomic/lt9xVbZaX3s/discussion 0.8.3661 is the latest
15:32	HolyJak	How is it possible that > can be used as java.util.Comparator? Does clojure somehow convert the boolean result to −1/+1 ? I'd be glad if anybody can point me towards the anser.
15:35	seangrove	Hmm, I'm not seeing the jar for 0.8.3661 in clojars at all though. Updating Datomic on the server...
15:36	HolyJak	Clojure Programming on page 107-108 says that yes, predicates are adapted to behave as Comparators, but doesn't say where/how :-(
15:40	jonasen	seangrove: btw, how are you able to run datomic-free on Heroku. Or will you simply loose all data at any time?
15:40	seangrove	jonasen: Just the app is run on heroku, but datomic is run on a vps, along with the workers for importing git urls
15:40	jonasen	seangrove: ok
15:41	antares_	HolyJak: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/AFunction.java#L46
15:41	HolyJak	thanks a lot!
15:42	HolyJak	I love this channel :-)
15:44	bbloom	antares_: now I'm curious what a sneakyThrow is :-)
15:44	bbloom	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Util.java#L183
15:44	bbloom	nice.
15:44	bbloom	heh
15:45	bbloom	ie: turn off this blasted checked exceptions nonsense
15:45	HolyJak	bbloom: thx for providing also a pointer to the answer after having attracted my attention to it :)
15:45	antares_	bbloom: the "least inconvenient" way to throw exceptions without specifying them in method signatures all the time http://www.jayway.com/2010/01/29/sneaky-throw/
15:47	HolyJak	I see
15:59	bbloom	hmmm i have some source of non-determinism in my code… but i'm not sure where….
15:59	bbloom	i don't use random
15:59	bbloom	there are no inputs
16:00	bbloom	no IO
16:00	bbloom	uses only core clojure data structures
16:00	bbloom	yet repeated execution yields varied results....
16:01	bbloom	the only thing i can think of is that it's hashing functions differently from iteration to iteration… would that make sense?
16:01	bbloom	yeah, i guess it does… hm
16:02	bbloom	&(hash (fn []))
16:02	bbloom	,(hash (fn []))
16:02	clojurebot	1087093623
16:02	bbloom	,(hash (fn []))
16:02	clojurebot	512672660
16:02	bbloom	that makes sense
16:02	bbloom	shouldn't be affecting my algorithm tho :-P
16:05	gfredericks	,(hash "foo")
16:05	clojurebot	101574
16:05	gfredericks	,(hash "foo")
16:05	clojurebot	101574
16:05	gfredericks	,(hash (apply str (range 10000)))
16:05	clojurebot	-1524940506
16:14	gfredericks	empty protocols are an interesting pattern
16:15	gfredericks	apparently only cljs allows it?
16:15	tomoj	1.5.0-beta1 too, I think
16:15	gfredericks	ah
16:16	gfredericks	in clj-jvm you can extend a protocol to an interface, can't you?
16:16	bbloom	gfredericks: yeah, turns out to be useful as a sort of bit flag. i just used them for functions with metadata in cljs
16:16	bbloom	gfredericks: what use cases have you run into?
16:17	gfredericks	none, I just saw it in the CLJS code :)
16:17	tomoj	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/2bc8b1f5
16:17	gfredericks	I was initially curious if the use cases mapped to any typical OOP patterns
16:17	bbloom	gfredericks: I've seen empty interfaces before
16:18	bbloom	gfredericks: but these days that same use case is better handled by an attribute or metadata in java or c#, etc
16:18	gfredericks	I guess because I saw ASeq in the cljs code, the naming pattern of which reminds me of the abstract superclasses in clj-jvm
16:18	bbloom	what's that find-fn syntax in here again?
16:18	gfredericks	$findfn 3 4 7
16:18	bbloom	$find-fn nil 5 '(5)
16:18	bbloom	$findfn nil 5 '(5)
16:19	bbloom	no clojurebot? :-/
16:19	gfredericks	it's lazybot
16:19	gfredericks	and he's apparently not here
16:19	bbloom	dammit lazybot, i need you
16:19	bbloom	get off the couch
16:19	HolyJak	&(+ 1)
16:19	HolyJak	,(+ 1)
16:19	clojurebot	1
16:19	bbloom	found https://github.com/Raynes/findfn
16:20	HolyJak	,(+ 2)
16:20	clojurebot	2
16:22	ivaraasen	does anyone here know the current state of Incanter? seems pretty stale just by looking at the github repo.
16:23	bbloom	(find-fn tester {:a 1} nil :a 1) ;; assoc
16:23	bbloom	(find-fn tester '(:a) nil :a) ;; conj
16:23	tomoj	hmm, if I put (load-file "/home/tom/repl.clj") in my :repl-options :init, it works, but if I put the code that is in repl.clj, I get a "ClassNotFoundException: cljs.repl.browser"
16:23	bbloom	(find-fn tester #{:a} nil :a) ;; sorted-set-by
16:23	bbloom	doesn't seem right :-/
16:23	bbloom	i need a function which yields a set
16:23	bbloom	the best i got is:
16:23	bbloom	&(set/union nil #{:a})
16:24	bbloom	,(set/union nil #{:a})
16:24	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:24	bbloom	,(clojure.set/union nil #{:a})
16:24	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set>
16:24	bbloom	shrug
16:25	tomoj	given what args?
16:25	tomoj	,(clojure.set/union [1 2 3] [1 2 3])
16:25	clojurebot	[1 2 3 1 2 ...]
16:26	tomoj	wonder if there's a good reason set and vec aren't identity when possible
16:27	bbloom	i'm doing an update-in
16:27	bbloom	(update-in some-map [some key path] set/union #{element})
16:28	bbloom	would be nice to omit the #{} and replace set/union with set-conj or something
16:28	tomoj	where set-conj is #(conj (or #{} %1) %2)?
16:28	tomoj	er, that's backwards ofc
16:29	bbloom	yeah, basically
16:29	bbloom	i find myself needing that function frequently
16:30	ollivera	Hi, I am reading a tsv file .. doseq [line (line-seq rdr)] ... how can I extract (access) only the 2nd and 5th field in the line?
16:32	bbloom	break it down: first you need to split the line on tabs
16:33	tomoj	huh, doseq allows initial :let-bindings, for doesn't
16:36	gfredericks	tomoj: boo :(
16:37	ollivera	bbloom, how can I split the line on tabs?
16:37	gfredericks	,(clojure.string/split "\t" "foo\tbar\tbazzy")
16:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.regex.Pattern>
16:37	gfredericks	,(clojure.string/split #"\t" "foo\tbar\tbazzy")
16:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.util.regex.Pattern>
16:37	gfredericks	,(clojure.string/split "foo\tbar\tbazzy" #"\t")
16:37	clojurebot	["foo" "bar" "bazzy"]
16:38	bbloom	gfredericks: heh, i do the same thing
16:38	bbloom	i make BOTH mistakes every time haha
16:38	bbloom	sometimes i even try to write /\t/ :-P
16:38	gfredericks	lol
16:38	gfredericks	in the future we will all use eclipse and that will not happen
16:39	ivaraasen	gfredericks: might want to compile the regexp as well
16:39	gfredericks	ivaraasen: does it not get compiled by the clojure compiler?
16:39	ivaraasen	gfredericks: hm, you might be right. or maybe HotSpot does some magic
16:40	gfredericks	,(type #"\t")
16:40	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
16:40	gfredericks	if it's a Pattern does that imply it's already compiled?
16:41	ivaraasen	isn't it compiled on the go by the regexp reader macro?
16:41	gfredericks	that's what I assumed
16:41	gfredericks	,(type (read-stryng "#\"\t\""))
16:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: read-stryng in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:41	gfredericks	,(type (read-string "#\"\t\""))
16:41	clojurebot	java.util.regex.Pattern
16:42	gfredericks	I don't know that it's a reader macro, since that's the most basic syntax for it
16:42	ivaraasen	OK, they're compiled at read time by the reader macro, according to the docs
16:42	gfredericks	w00p
16:43	gfredericks	clojure: always doing the right thing some of the time.
16:43	tomoj	I think they may be compiled again at compile time?
16:44	gfredericks	wat.
16:44	tomoj	but can you even have an 'uncompiled' Pattern?
16:45	gfredericks	my guess is in javaland that's a pattern represented as a string
16:45	tomoj	oh, I see, the emitter for a Pattern emits a string and then a call to compile
16:45	gfredericks	emitter?
16:46	gfredericks	the sexp->bytecode compiler?
16:46	tomoj	the byte code generator
16:46	gfredericks	huh.
16:46	gfredericks	,(.compile #"\t")
16:46	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: compile for class java.util.regex.Pattern>
16:46	gfredericks	oh you compile a string to a regexp
16:46	gfredericks	,(str #"\t")
16:46	clojurebot	"\\t"
16:47	ivaraasen	but yeah, a really simple solution to getting say the 5th line of a TSV file would probably be to use clojure-csv's (parse-csv MyFile :delimiter \\t) and do a nth 5.
16:49	ivaraasen	,(. Pattern compile "\t")
16:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: Pattern in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:51	TimMc	&(identical? #"foo" #"foo")
16:51	TimMc	,(identical? #"foo" #"foo")
16:51	clojurebot	false
16:52	AWizzArd	/wii cemerik
16:55	xificurC	is there anyone kind enough to link me or explain me how to get lein working on pcbsd?
16:56	xificurC	after a lein self-install if i try to run for example "lein repl" in xterm i get a line 260: java: command not found
16:58	lynaghk	bbloom: making a codeq + c2po charts HN bait post has been on my agenda for a while = )
16:59	bbloom	lynaghk: nice
16:59	lynaghk	bbloom: I haven't had a ton of time to play with either datomic or codeq, though
17:00	lynaghk	I don't know if you know Carlos Scheidegger at AT&T Labs at all, but he was pretty jazzed about codeq when I told him about the project
17:00	ivaraasen	xificurC: did you install OpenJDK through the AppCafe?
17:00	lynaghk	bbloom: any questions in particular you are thinking about visualizing?
17:01	bbloom	lynaghk: nah, nothing in particular
17:02	xificurC	ivaraasen: nope, thanks a lot :) Sorry for having so dumb questions and problems :(
17:02	lynaghk	bbloom: I don't know if there has been any progress on the Clojure analysis bit of codeq since it was released
17:02	xificurC	too new to this OS
17:02	lynaghk	bbloom: but I think it'd be very interesting to look at relative distributions (via histograms) of things like form depth, # of forms per fn, length of forms, &c.
17:03	lynaghk	bbloom: but when codeq was first released the analysis just looked at toplevel forms only.
17:04	bbloom	lynaghk: not much, just talking about that with somebody above. apparently macros are a pain :-)
17:04	lynaghk	bbloom: even without doing full macroexpansion I think it'd be pretty useful
17:05	lynaghk	bbloom: after all, as a programmer you're looking at the literal forms, not the fully qualified/expanded ones.
17:06	bbloom	lynaghk: yeah, but the analyzer just chokes on defmacro, i'd assume
17:06	bbloom	lynaghk: also, there was mention of the core strategy of one-file-at-a-time being insufficient
17:06	bbloom	the analyzer's moduel system is tightly coupled to gclosure right now :-/
17:07	lynaghk	bbloom: ah. Assuming a file is well-formed EDN, couldn't you pretty easily just traverse it and do a lot of counting?
17:08	lynaghk	bbloom: that's what I'd be interested in, as a first pass. Of course, getting all of the actual semantics in there would be great too. Still though, looking at forms is much more interesting than lines.
17:11	bbloom	lynaghk: yeah, i figure lots of other people are interested, so they can push for changes to cljs :-) more interested parties outside of just those doing browser-side work is welcome
17:11	bbloom	anyway, just published an early version of https://github.com/brandonbloom/qplan
17:11	bbloom	:-)
17:14	lynaghk	bbloom: do you have your codeq playground on github?L
17:15	bbloom	lynaghk: i don't have a codeq playground :-) seangrove and somebody else does
17:15	bbloom	jida.herokuapp.com
17:15	muhoo	it's a gist, isn't it?
17:15	seangrove	Yeup, tinkering with it right now
17:16	seangrove	Should have it back up in a second
17:17	gfredericks	so you can extend a protocol to a java interface but not to another protocol; any guesses about the reasoning there?
17:17	gfredericks	is the interface functionality an unfortunate necessity but normally we want to extend to concrete types?
17:18	seangrove	Was trying to upgrade datomic for jonasen
17:20	andrewmcveigh	I just pulled master on clojure/clojurescript, cljsbuild now throws :No such var: json/pprint, compiling:(cljs/source_map.clj:142)
17:20	andrewmcveigh	Anyone know what that is?
17:22	lynaghk	seangrove: do you know of any JavaScript libraries for making textareas that have paredit? I was thinking about making something similar to your Jida project but refuse to do anything until I get a highlighted, paredit'd textarea for input
17:22	seangrove	lynaghk: Nah, I ran into the same problem, wrote a little helper for determining balanced parens, and then realize how much thought must have gone into paredit
17:23	seangrove	Re-pushing to Heroku, should be back up in a bit. cljs compilation sometimes takes ~5-7minutes though
17:24	lynaghk	seangrove: I guess you could call in the nuclear option and use Ymacs: http://www.ymacs.org/
17:25	gfredericks	tried ymacs for 3 seconds until C-n opened a new chrome window
17:25	lynaghk	gfredericks: ah, yeah. That and I can't use other people's emacs anyway. It's kind of in the uncanny valley of textareas
17:26	seangrove	And even then, no paredit mode :)
17:26	seangrove	But I think something like emacs => llvm => emscripten... or something might eventually be a cool project
17:27	lynaghk	seangrove: oh, I hadn't thought about that route. Probably because I want to stay sane
17:27	Raynes	lynaghk: subpar for codemirror
17:27	Raynes	$google subpar codemirror
17:27	Raynes	No bot.
17:27	Raynes	I haven't had to restart him in probably 6 months.
17:27	Raynes	I literally don't even remember how.
17:28	lynaghk	Raynes: ohh, written in ClojureScript. Hip.
17:28	gfredericks	Raynes: there should be some command you can issue in #clojure that restarts him
17:28	gfredericks	$arise
17:29	Raynes	gfredericks: That's a chicken and the egg problem. If he is dead he can't respond to commands.
17:29	gfredericks	there should be a command you can issue in #clojure for chicken and egg problems
17:29	gfredericks	$hatch
17:29	Raynes	:p
17:30	muhoo	&(hatch)
17:30	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: hatch in this context
17:30	gfredericks	and that would be his normal response to that
17:33	Raynes	Is there an official content type for edn?
17:33	gfredericks	I saw application/edn somewhere
17:33	gfredericks	probably had something to do with fogus. That guy.
17:33	Raynes	Yeah, ring-edn uses that.
17:34	gfredericks	woah what does ring-edn do
17:34	Raynes	I have no idea.
17:35	seangrove	Raynes: Reminds me a bit of Robin Hood/Friar Tuck: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/archive/index.php/t-5628.html
17:36	gfredericks	it is very weird that the ring-edn readme example uses print-str instead of pr-str
17:37	Raynes	fogus is a terrible programmer.
17:37	Raynes	Nobody gets aware with that.
17:38	Raynes	I hate you.
17:41	andrewmcveigh	Does metadata on defmulti work in cljs? It seems to compile alright, but it seems to break in the browser by prepending the var name with self__
17:43	seangrove	lynaghk: Ok, all better now: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50ba63d6e4b0d89fb0a4ae41
17:44	lynaghk	seangrove: neat. You are running datomic in process?
17:44	seangrove	Nah, it's on a server elsewhere
17:44	lynaghk	seangrove: do you have a pro copy?
17:45	seangrove	Nah, just the free one. Pro would be nice so I didn't have to worry about disk space, etc.
17:45	Sgeo__	Suppose two libraries are combinable in some way
17:45	seangrove	But maybe I'll ask once Jida is of use to the community
17:45	Sgeo__	As in, let's say one exports a protocol, and another exports a type that could be made to fit the protocol
17:45	lynaghk	seangrove: yeah, I have no idea what the storage characteristics are. I'd like to use datomic on S3 for fire-and-forget log all the things.
17:46	Sgeo__	Do I just write my own library that fits them together, and put that up as a separate thing?
17:46	seangrove	Same here
17:46	muhoo	[5~[5~[5~/sb end
17:46	wink	,(map (fn [x] (str x x)) ["a" "b"])
17:46	clojurebot	("aa" "bb")
17:46	wink	why is that converted to a list?
17:46	gfredericks	it's a lazy seq
17:46	gfredericks	,(type (map (fn [x] (str x x)) ["a" "b"]))
17:46	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
17:46	seangrove	Datomic-as-a-service would be pretty cool - it wouldn't be a good idea as a professional thing, probably, but as a tool for toy projects on Heroku, would be nice
17:46	gfredericks	seqs get printed as lists
17:46	muhoo	qplan looks interesting, but i find i can't get my brain around what it does
17:46	wink	ok, my bad. why is it not a vector still? :)
17:47	Sgeo__	qplan?
17:47	seangrove	Unfortunately, it seems like the setup of datomic makes it pretty difficult to offer as a service, or just extremely expensive
17:47	gfredericks	wink: map always returns a lazy-seq; there is a mapv if you really need a vector, but likely you don't
17:47	lynaghk	seangrove: are you not on github?
17:47	seangrove	http://github.com/sgrove
17:47	lynaghk	seangrove: how do you mean?
17:47	Sgeo__	wink, because it's convenient for a lot of cases, reducing the amount of work that needs to be done after multiple transforms of the sequence
17:48	Sgeo__	Suppose you mapped f onto some sequence, and mapped g onto the result
17:48	seangrove	Jida source is here https://github.com/yayitswei/jida
17:48	lynaghk	seangrove: ugh, usability fail. I github searched you and it shows all of your repos but doesn't say "users:" on the sidebar like it used to.
17:48	gfredericks	Sgeo__: how does it reduce work unless you don't consume everything?
17:48	Sgeo__	The underlying sequence only needs to be walked once
17:48	gfredericks	Sgeo__: there's still the intermediate seq
17:48	wink	Sgeo__: yeah, I understand it probably makes things easier
17:48	wink	I was just a bit dumbfounded now
17:48	seangrove	No problem
17:48	gfredericks	Sgeo__: I expect it's assymptotically the same as mapv
17:49	seangrove	Anyway, I was thinking a public tool like Jida could potentially be very useful for programming communities, and as a way for the Datomic Company to show off the utility, use, etc. of datomic
17:49	lynaghk	seangrove: yeah, totes.
17:49	ivaraasen	I really need to set up a datomic playground.
17:49	Sgeo__	Hmm, I guess only consuming part of it is probably when it would act to reduce work, mostly
17:50	lynaghk	seangrove: are you getting the hash from the query string, or are you normalizing it first
17:50	gfredericks	Sgeo__: my understanding is that reducers are interesting partly because they avoid the intermediate representation
17:50	lynaghk	seangrove: e.g., (-> read-string pr-str md5sum)
17:50	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: sorry, stepped out
17:50	ivaraasen	maybe ask my professors for some petroleum big data and see what cool stuff it's capable of.
17:50	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: not sure what the source_maps thing is about, should ask dnolen
17:50	seangrove	The hash used for the query id?
17:50	lynaghk	seangrove: yeah
17:50	seangrove	It's just a mongo-db id, where the queries are stored
17:51	lynaghk	seangrove: ah, I see.
17:51	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: as for the multi metadata, you mean (defmulti ^:foo f …
17:51	bbloom	?
17:51	seangrove	I don't know enough about managing datomic yet, so I wanted to keep all data in there essentially "stateless"
17:51	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: np, I pulled the source-maps branch I thought I was on master.
17:51	seangrove	Or always re-creatable.
17:51	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: whoops :-) ok
17:51	seangrove	Easy enough to import a dozen or more clojure repos, so even if datomic blows up and all data is lost, no big deal
17:51	lynaghk	seangrove: mind if I tweet about this project to a few people? Or will it be going on/offline for a while?
17:51	seangrove	But saved queries are much more valuable, they need to be backed up
17:51	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: yes. (defmulti ^:foo f ...
17:52	seangrove	lynaghk: Nah, we were about to send it out to the list this weekend
17:52	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: there are no vars in cljs
17:52	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: if you do that in clojure, you need to do (meta #'f)
17:52	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: (meta f) doesn't work
17:53	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: well, maybe var is not what I meant... the form (defmulti ^:foo ...) compiles to in js seems to be "munged?" to self__.f
17:53	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: give me a moment, i'll check it out
17:53	andrewmcveigh	I'm not actually trying to get at the metadata.
17:54	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: ah, ok so it should be ignored, it's just not… ill look
17:54	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: would you please file a ticket?
17:54	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: in the jira?
17:54	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: yeah
17:55	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: sure, will do.
17:55	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: well
17:55	bbloom	make sure you include a test case :-)
17:55	bbloom	because i don't see an issue here ...
17:55	bbloom	does it only affect advanced mode you said?
17:56	andrewmcveigh	I've not even checked advanced mode, I've got it on :whitespace.
17:57	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: ok, help me reproduce it
17:57	andrewmcveigh	I'll try on a fresh project. Maybe something's broke here.
18:06	gfredericks	AJAX has a lot of similarities with the IO monad doesn't it
18:06	seangrove	gfredericks: How so?
18:06	gfredericks	I'm thinking mostly of the fact that the runtime forces you to do it async
18:06	moogatronic	Having a strange issue with lein-cljsbuild: Could not locate cljs/analyzer__init.class or cljs/analyzer.clj on classpath
18:07	moogatronic	Using version 0.2.9. If i use 0.2.1 it works… Anyone see this before?
18:07	gfredericks	so therefore, like the IO monad, any composition of functions that involves async at any point must itself be asyncy
18:08	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: hmm, it seems that when the metadata is (defmulti ^:field f ...) that breaks it, whereas (defmulti ^:foo f ...) doesn't. Maybe there's a reason for that?
18:10	seangrove	Ah, got it
18:10	seangrove	Seems so, yes
18:12	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: heh ok… let me see...
18:13	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: this does it for me https://gist.github.com/4185793
18:14	bbloom	heh ok, ticket that & i'll see what i can do… i think i know where the issue is
18:15	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: OK, will do.
18:15	Sgeo__	defprotocol-once?
18:16	Sgeo__	...Why is it needed, what happens if you call defprotocol several times?
18:17	Sgeo__	Or deftype or defrecord
18:17	Sgeo__	With the same code?
18:20	tomoj	Sgeo__: bad things in some cases https://www.refheap.com/paste/b83f0ae013c7bcf8af2de885a
18:20	bbloom	the issue is that munge looks at some metadata on symbols, so it's a more general problem regarding the :field metadata
18:20	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: i can probably just namespace the keys....
18:21	Sgeo__	tomoj, oh
18:21	Sgeo__	That... kind of sucks really badly
18:21	Sgeo__	Reminds me of Python
18:21	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: there is probably a simpler test case too...
18:22	Sgeo__	Seriously, I expect Clojure to play nice with modifying and changing code at runtime
18:22	Sgeo__	Maybe I'm expecting it to be too much like CL?
18:22	bbloom	Sgeo__: others expect that too. file a bug
18:23	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: (def ^:field f identity)
18:23	tomoj	you want it to detect that the sigs are the same?
18:23	tomoj	and in case they're not, give the current behavior?
18:24	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: i can't dig into it now, but file that ticket and link me to it… either i or dnolen will take a look at it sooner or later
18:24	Sgeo__	Hmm, not sure the exact semantics that I would want
18:24	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: ah, it even does it with def?
18:24	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: Writing it now.
18:25	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: actually (def ^:field f identity) is fine for me.
18:26	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: try to call it
18:26	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: ah, yeah.
18:36	gfredericks	Raynes: jayq contains "application/edn" as well
18:36	gfredericks	also "text/edn" and "application/clojure" and "text/clojure"
18:36	lynaghk	gfredericks, Raynes: we're using application/edn for our services that send edn over the wire.
18:36	gfredericks	so....whatever
18:37	gfredericks	is "application/json" an unfortunate name?
18:41	mpenet	gfredericks: about the async ajax monad, it is possible, it's a different definition from the one in jayq, the 2 can coexist.
18:41	andrewmcveigh	bbloom: I've submitted the ticket, but I can't seem to link it to anyone. CLJS-434
18:42	bbloom	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-434
18:42	gfredericks	mpenet: I just got all excited about this new view of ajax/async
18:42	bbloom	andrewmcveigh: thanks
18:42	gfredericks	mpenet: apparently jquery deferred, which I didn't previously know about, is up this alley?
18:42	mpenet	gfredericks: sometimes you want realized values between steps (allows "natural" transform with Mabye or sometimes is required depending on use case), sometimes you dont care
18:43	mpenet	it is
18:43	gfredericks	mpenet: yeah, and it occurred to me that you wouldn't want to assume independence even when you can prove it in the code, because statefulness on the server might not allow reordering
18:43	gfredericks	so it definitely ought to be explicit
18:43	mpenet	gfredericks: yup
18:44	gfredericks	it'd be a weird server that didn't allow that, but best to be safe
18:44	mpenet	gfredericks: feel free to scratch this itch, this would be welcomed in jayq with the other one
18:45	tomoj	(let [res1 (req1) res2 (req2)] [@res1 @res2]) vs (let [res1 @(req1) res2 @(req2)] [res1 res2])
18:45	mpenet	gfredericks: it's more about the workflow in your app, ex: POST, need to wait for a response and do GET that depends on the previous post.
18:45	gfredericks	mpenet: once I get my head around it I assume it should be straightforward so I'll be happy to throw up a patch if that turns out to be the case
18:45	gfredericks	mpenet: I guess that wouldn't be so weird
18:45	mpenet	gfredericks: not at all imo
18:45	jamii	If anyone feels like proof-reading some vaguely clojure-related writing, I'd be much obliged :D
18:45	jamii	https://gist.github.com/800eaa1876dfaad4b600
18:46	gfredericks	I think if I were doing that I'd think about having the POST return the data itself
18:47	mpenet	gfredericks: yeah, but it's maybe not that specific, maybe my example was bad, but I meant sometimes the order can be important
18:48	gfredericks	it wouldn't surprise me too badly, I just can't think of a common use case with a restful server
18:49	mpenet	if req1 fails, dont do req2, is a good enough justification imo
18:49	mpenet	well could be
18:49	gfredericks	oh that's a good point
18:50	mpenet	so the 2 versions are potentially useful
18:52	holo	hi
18:54	tomoj	if req2 needs the previous response, you could do (let [res1 @(req1)] @(req2 res1)), or make req2 accept a defer, for @((comp req2 req1)). can't decide if I like the latter
18:55	holo	i want to do something like (= type(var) <some way to represent the class constant>) how do i do the <...> thing?
18:55	gfredericks	,Integer
18:55	holo	i mean (type var). sorry for my legacy typo
18:55	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
18:55	tomoj	maybe you define a special comp that handles asynchrony, @((comp@ req2 req1)), and just have req2 take a response
18:55	gfredericks	,java.util.List
18:55	clojurebot	java.util.List
18:56	gfredericks	holo: just write it ^
18:56	gfredericks	fully qualified, or naked if you imported it
18:56	holo	oh.. i can just write.. hehe
18:56	gfredericks	tomoj: yeah that's basically how jayq already works
18:56	holo	so obvious
18:57	holo	gfredericks, thanks
18:57	gfredericks	,(= (type {2 4}) clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap)
18:57	clojurebot	true
18:57	gfredericks	holo: you also might like clojure.core/instance?
18:58	holo	gfredericks, yes, i like it :) thanks
18:59	tomoj	gfredericks: (then (req1) req2) ?
18:59	tomoj	er, done I guess
18:59	mpenet	tomoj: we have a let form that does that
19:00	mpenet	tomoj: let-ajax, and also let-defered
19:00	mpenet	there is an example in the jayq readme
19:00	mpenet
19:01	tomoj	ah, if you want points
19:02	tomoj	that's pretty cool, I hadn't thought of :let/:when for dropping out of the monad
19:04	mpenet	yes I think so too, I haven't used it in my apps though.
19:12	devinus	is there a literal reader syntax for PersistentQueue yet?
19:18	seancorfield	ibdknox: you around?
19:19	seancorfield	I upgraded my Win8 VM from Release Preview to Pro and had to reinstall Java and now LightTable doesn't work again :(
19:20	tomoj	devinus: only in cljs I believe
19:20	devinus	that's disappointing
19:20	devinus	tomoj: what is it in cljs?
19:20	tomoj	#queue
19:20	tomoj	e.g. #queue[1 2 3]
19:23	dnolen	jamii: nice
19:23	gfredericks	is that a tagged literal?
19:23	tomoj	devinus: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-976
19:25	devinus	"this needs more time" what does that mean?
19:28	bbloom	i assume he means hammock time?
19:29	bbloom	i love that i wrote a 100 lines clojure library on the jvm and then tested on cljs and it worked first try :-)
19:32	Hodapp	nice!
19:32	bbloom	it's absolutely amazing how far you can get with maps, sets, and vectors
19:57	tomoj	I wonder if we should wait until cljs depends on 1.5 to put test-> etc in there
19:57	tomoj	or maybe copy them over to cljs/core.clj in the meantime
19:58	bbloom	tomoj: probably no harm in copy pasting them over, since the goal is for cljs to eventually be self hosting
19:58	bbloom	it will need to have copy pasted defs of everything eventually...
19:59	bbloom	tomoj: submit a ticket with patch & see what dnolen says
20:00	tomoj	thankfully refer :exclude appears to not explode when you exclude something that doesn't exist
20:00	tomoj	(I'm using cljs with 1.5)
20:00	bbloom	yeah, that seems like a reasonable behavior :-)
20:02	bbloom	test-> is super useful :-)
20:18	alex_baranosky	any idea why adding this to my project file is not enough for leningen to find the needed jar for me? [org.clojure/tools.trace "0.7.5"]
20:19	alex_baranosky	is the trace jar in some odd repo?
20:19	gfredericks	alex_baranosky: in what way does it fail? it says it can't find the jar?
20:20	alex_baranosky	gfredericks: yeah, it says it can't find it in the specified repos - central, releases, clojars, snapshots
20:22	gfredericks	the sonatype repo says it only has "0.7.1" and "0.7.3"
20:23	gfredericks	so maybe there's been some failure to publish the most recent version
20:24	gfredericks	it was messed with quite recently apparently
20:24	gfredericks	maybe there's a delay
20:28	tomoj	in cljs, (zero? (inc nil))
20:28	tomoj	guess I'm not surprised
20:29	gfredericks	I just got 1
20:29	tomoj	oh, yeah
20:29	bbloom	tomoj: unfortunately no way to make that give you an error without losing a lot of perf
20:29	tomoj	but I wonder if writing (update-in {} ks inc) is really a user error anyway
20:30	bbloom	similar issue: (+ 5 "adsf")
20:30	Sgeo__	Why should it be an error?
20:30	tomoj	,(update-in {} [:foo] inc)
20:31	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
20:31	bbloom	Sgeo__ automatic type coercion is a bug waiting to happen
20:31	bbloom	but host semantics leak through sometimes
20:31	bbloom	,(+ 5 "adsf")
20:31	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
20:31	Sgeo__	tomoj, so what should I do if I want to inc the value at key :foo but if it's not there just leave it alone?
20:31	bbloom	clojurescript returns "5asdf"
20:32	bbloom	,(update-in {} [:foo] #(inc (or % 0)))
20:32	clojurebot	{:foo 1}
20:32	p_l	bbloom: have you seen a talk called "WAT"?
20:32	bbloom	p_l: yeah
20:32	alex_baranosky	gfredericks: ahhh… I tried 0.7.4, 0.7.2 and 0.7.0 amazingly -- thanks for the info, it works
20:32	p_l	then you know why ;)
20:33	Sgeo__	It's easy to make a monad around Lamina's result-channels
20:34	Sgeo__	But what about Lamina channels?
20:37	bbloom	p_l: heh watched it again https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat it's pretty funny
20:37	tomoj	I note lamina seems to have no mapcat
20:38	tomoj	oh wait
20:38	tomoj	yeah it does
20:38	tomoj	return x = (channel x); ch >>= f = (mapcat* f ch) ?
20:44	tomoj	Sgeo__: but aren't channels sorta hopeless?
20:44	Sgeo__	hm?
20:44	clojurebot	benchmarking is https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium
20:45	Sgeo__	Well, do we want channels used monadically to have those semantics?
20:46	Sgeo__	Channels are effectively FRP Events, right? Are FRP Events monads, I forget
20:46	Sgeo__	Erm, monadic values
20:47	tomoj	yes, Event is a monad
20:47	tomoj	but channels aren't Events :)
20:47	bbloom	tomoj: Sgeo__: I know you guys are interested in FRP and dataflow and stuff.. i've been working on a less haskell-ish approach :-)
20:47	bbloom	https://github.com/brandonbloom/qplan
20:48	tomoj	interesting
20:48	tomoj	looking at the test, it reminds me of something I've been thinking about for http middleware ever since cemerick's solver for nrepl middleware
20:49	bbloom	the doc string in core.clj explains a tad of the academic bits, but see the referenced papers for real details
20:49	tomoj	guessing it's not what I think it is though
20:49	bbloom	tomoj: not familiar, link?
20:49	Sgeo	Solver for nrepl middleware?
20:49	bbloom	is the goal to just get a linearization of a dependency graph?
20:49	bbloom	ie these middle wares need these, so run these in this order?
20:50	tomoj	yeah, that's what cemerick's did
20:50	tomoj	although I am interested in more than linear stacks
20:50	bbloom	yeah, this is a bit more complex than that
20:50	bbloom	this is multi-output and multi-directional
20:50	tomoj	dunno where it is, nrepl or somewhere
20:50	bbloom	in that case you have zero or more dependencies. in this case you have N to M inputs to outputs
20:51	bbloom	with cycles
20:52	bbloom	i intend to use this (or an optimized version of it) for the basis of a data bindings system
20:53	bbloom	i have a whole bunch of half finished researchy experiments i'm going to slowly stitch together into a serious framework :-)
20:53	tomoj	so you'll have channels basically, or just event callbacks, which rerun evaluate with some new data?
20:54	bbloom	tomoj: it's not a continuous model, it's discreet
20:54	tomoj	sure, but what's the analogue of push seqs?
20:55	bbloom	tomoj: there isn't one really…
20:55	bbloom	I expect to have something more similar to the datomic model
20:55	bbloom	where you have some kind of "transaction data" so to speak
20:55	bbloom	and you modify a priority map of properties, and then re-evaluate bindings
20:56	tomoj	so a click event occurs and some handle submits a 'transaction'?
20:56	tomoj	handler
20:57	bbloom	yeah, something like that… clicking will send off a command
20:57	bbloom	the command will be expanded, like a datomic transaction function
20:57	bbloom	which occurs recursively until you have some set of primitives, like datomic has add and retract
20:58	tomoj	presumably, unlike datomic, the history will not be kept around? :)
20:58	bbloom	yeah, probably just going to keep exactly two versions: current and previous
20:58	tomoj	looks cool. I'll have to add those papers to my todo list
20:58	tomoj	for the record, I seek not a haskell-ish approach, but a clojure-ish approach :)
20:59	bbloom	hence i expanded my search beyond functional programming papers, which tend to be very haskellish
21:00	bbloom	the property models papers are collaborations with Adobe; ie C++
21:00	bbloom	i need to think more about what an in-memory no-history version of datomic would look like
21:01	bbloom	especially with good support for ordered trees
21:01	tomoj	yeah, I keep accidentally thinking I have type classes :(
21:01	Sgeo	Yeah, I think channels are more Applicative than Monadic
21:02	tomoj	the correct applicative for Events is very weird
21:02	Sgeo	Although, sort of getting into frustrations with Clojure not using thunked I/O
21:02	Sgeo	I'm calling it thunked instead of monadic, because monadicness isn't the only interesting thing
21:02	bbloom	Sgeo: what frustrations?
21:03	Sgeo	The Clojure equivalent of println <$> somechannel should return another channel, right?
21:03	Sgeo	A channel of ... what? IO values, I would think
21:03	Sgeo	But that's not so nice and intuitive in Clojure
21:04	Sgeo	(map println [1 2 3]) isn't a lazy sequence of things you can trigger to print out a number
21:04	Sgeo	It's a lazy sequence that, as the sequence gets realized, prints stuff out
21:04	Sgeo	Which I feel is too soon
21:05	bbloom	ah yes
21:05	bbloom	clojurescript had a pr-seq interface
21:05	bbloom	which returned a lazy sequence of strings
21:05	bbloom	but it got yanked out for performance reasons
21:05	Sgeo	pr-seq is missing the point
21:06	bbloom	in what way? it isolates the IO
21:06	Sgeo	What I want is something that behaves like... (map (fn [v] (println v)) [1 2 3])
21:06	Sgeo	Wait, no
21:07	Sgeo	(map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])
21:07	Sgeo	,(map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])
21:07	clojurebot	(#<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@1cb02395> #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@6ff019e9> #<sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29 sandbox$eval27$fn__28$fn__29@7c354968>)
21:07	Sgeo	,(doseq [io (map (fn [v] #(println v)) [1 2 3])] (io))
21:07	clojurebot	1
21:07	clojurebot	2
21:07	clojurebot	3
21:08	bbloom	do you really need that to apply to OTHER PEOPLE's printing? or can you simply: (fn [& args] (fn [] (apply print args))
21:09	Sgeo	It becomes relevent I think when you want to map doing IO onto things other than sequences
21:09	bbloom	Sgeo: I haven't done much with haskell outside of project euler toy apps
21:10	bbloom	so i'm not really sure how it's IO performance is achieved or how dethunkificiation occurs in the compiler or any of that fancy stuff
21:11	bbloom	nor am i really sure what benefits i get from lazy IO, other than the obvious downsides of resource leaks, motivating iterators, etc
21:11	Sgeo	lazy IO is generally discouraged in Haskell, but that's not what I'm getting at
21:12	Sgeo	Is there a function to get every other element from a list?
21:12	Sgeo	Or a lazy-seq?
21:12	tomoj	(partial take-nth 2)
21:12	Sgeo	ty
21:13	Sgeo	,(dorun (take-nth 2 (map println [1 2 3 4])))
21:13	clojurebot	1
21:13	clojurebot	2
21:13	clojurebot	3
21:13	clojurebot	4
21:14	Sgeo	,(take-nth 2 (map #(str "(println " % ")") [1 2 3 4]))
21:14	clojurebot	("(println 1)" "(println 3)")
21:14	tomoj	for me, in clojure, the answer is usually "don't put IO in a seq"
21:14	Sgeo	I want putting IO in a seq to be comfortable
21:14	Sgeo	basically
21:17	tomoj	what's uncomfortable? defining your own println that returns a function?
21:18	Sgeo	,(doseq [io (take-nth 2 (map #(fn [] (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))] (io))
21:18	clojurebot	1
21:18	clojurebot	3
21:18	Sgeo	tomoj, I'm sure I could write a function to take an I/O performing function and thunkify it
21:19	Sgeo	But I feel like it should be more built-in. I could also write my own dorun and doseq and for if the language didn't have them
21:19	Sgeo	Although the thunkify function probably is not as difficult to write as for
21:20	Sgeo	(fn [f] (fn [& args] (fn [] (apply f args))))
21:20	Sgeo	I think
21:22	tomoj	guess I don't understand IO well enough to understand the benefit, given that we have no static type system
21:22	gfredericks	isn't that just identity?
21:22	gfredericks	(fn [f] f) would do the same thing more performantly?
21:22	gfredericks	oh wait nevermind :)
21:23	Sgeo	tomoj, the benefit is that you can freely pass around objects that represent performing an action, without actually performing that action until you want to
21:24	tomoj	can't you freely do that here too? difference is there's no type distinction between an action and a nullary function
21:25	Sgeo	Yes, but the standard library isn't designed with that in mind
21:25	Sgeo	There's no function for walking along a seq of nullary functions and doing them all
21:25	tomoj	right, oh well
21:25	Sgeo	For example
21:27	tomoj	I don't see the benefit in having a standard library that is designed with thunked IO in mind :)
21:27	gfredericks	I've thought about it too; if the type system can't guarantee that a function is pure, then it seems like you're just getting the worst of both worlds
21:27	Sgeo	I find thunked I/O less confusing
21:28	tomoj	(reduce side-effects! nil seq-or-reducer-of-values)
21:29	tomoj	eh. I do have IO problems. I dunno that thunked IO would solve them
21:29	Apage43	I still don't actually get what the desired behavior is, here
21:30	Sgeo	Desired behavior is for
21:30	Sgeo	,(dorun (take-nth 2 (map println [1 2 3 4])))
21:30	clojurebot	1
21:30	clojurebot	2
21:30	clojurebot	3
21:30	Sgeo	To just print 1 then 3
21:30	clojurebot	4
21:30	Apage43	ah
21:33	Apage43	,(dorun (map deref (take-nth 2 (map #(delay (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))))
21:33	clojurebot	1
21:33	clojurebot	3
21:33	tomoj	hmm, but those actions only execute once
21:34	tomoj	i.e. if you dorun the same seq again, it just prints nothing
21:34	Apage43	,(dorun (map #(%) (take-nth 2 (map #(fn [] (println %)) [1 2 3 4]))))
21:34	clojurebot	1
21:34	clojurebot	3
21:34	tomoj	yeah, but Sgeo wants support from core :)
21:34	Apage43	and you can (dorun (map #(%) …)) that one a second time if you want to rerun the fn
21:35	Sgeo	If I write a library for this, what functions would I actually need to write?
21:36	Sgeo	thunkify, perform, dorun, doall, any others?
21:36	Sgeo	Would be nice to write (def perform #(%)) but that shows up differently in documentation, and I'm not sure where to put the docstring
21:37	Apage43	(def ^{:doc "I am a doc-string} somevar)
21:37	Apage43	er
21:37	Apage43	(def ^{:doc "I am a doc-string"} somevar)
21:37	tomoj	so reduce :: (a -> b) -> a -> IReduce b -> IO b
21:37	Apage43	,(meta #'+)
21:37	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 920, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), ...}
21:38	Sgeo	Ugh, I'd need to include arglists too, wouldn't I
21:38	Sgeo	Clojure makes it so painful to be pointless
21:38	Sgeo	I love pointless programming
21:39	Sgeo	(Yes, I know the usual term is pointfree. I'm trying to be funny)
21:39	ChongLi	even haskell can make it painful to do pointfree style
21:39	ChongLi	if you're trying to stretch it anyway
21:40	ChongLi	there's some real gymnastics you do when there are multiple arguments
21:40	ChongLi	like the owl combinator
21:41	Sgeo	Isn't there some sort of semantic editors thingy?
21:41	gfredericks	Apage43: clojure allows docstrings on def now
21:41	Sgeo	Which I don't entirely understand, but whatever.
21:41	Apage43	oh? Neat.
21:41	gfredericks	(def perform "This is my perform fn" #(%))
21:41	Sgeo	,(-> (meta #'+) keys)
21:41	clojurebot	(:ns :name :file :line :arglists ...)
21:41	tomoj	I'm working on a semantic editors library
21:41	tomoj	not going so well
21:41	Sgeo	gfredericks, it will still be called a var and not a function by documentation though I think
21:42	gfredericks	Sgeo: that'd be tool specific, right?
21:42	gfredericks	or you mean the :arglists missing and such?
21:43	Sgeo	:arglists missing, and the var thing I'm pretty sure I saw on Incanter documentation
21:43	gfredericks	,(-> clojure-version var meta keys)
21:43	clojurebot	(:added :doc :ns :name :dynamic ...)
21:43	Sgeo	ztellman uses some library he wrote for importing fns from a namespace, wouldn't be necessary if def were comfortable
21:45	tomoj	you say (def foo +), and you want the :line/:file metadata to point back to clojure.core? or you just want specific parts of the metadata? :)
21:46	gfredericks	arglists would be nice
21:46	gfredericks	hmm :/
21:46	gfredericks	arglists and doc seem problematic though
21:47	gfredericks	anything can be added manually
21:50	Sgeo	tomoj, well, would be nice to say (def foo (comp a b)), in which case there's multiple things that line and file would come from
21:50	tomoj	oh, right, even (def foo +) is doomed since + has no metadata
21:50	gfredericks	tomoj: but presumably (def foo +) is an abstraction, and taking just about anything from + would be leaky
21:51	Sgeo	Because relevant metadata like arglists is on the var and not the fn
21:51	Sgeo	If it were on the fn, comp could produce new metadata
21:51	Sgeo	For example
21:51	Sgeo	Although it would be annoying for writers of functions like that to have to do so, I guess
21:52	tomoj	the problem to me is that clojure.core can't choose for you what you want, you have to choose
21:52	tomoj	if you want a comp that passes on some particular metadata you have to write it, since there's no generally desirable way to merge the metadata, I think
21:54	tomoj	gfredericks: yeah, that's another case where clojure can't decide for you
22:05	tomoj	hmm http://okmij.org/ftp/Haskell/zip-folds.lhs
22:05	tomoj	interesting point there. since we have r/take and r/drop, we can get r/zip
22:05	tomoj	except.. that causes trouble if a reducer does IO upon reduce
22:05	tomoj	and seems likely inefficient?
22:12	devinus	can anybody explain why there seems to be a lot of mongo love in the clojure community?
22:12	devinus	am i missing something or is it just a coincidence?
22:20	gfredericks	clojure is webscale?
22:26	bbloom	devinus: probably a coincidence
22:26	bbloom	mongo has a lot of buzz, it's dynamically typed, it's pretty easy to set up.. there's probably some overlap in the style of workflows, so there's some overlap in the user bases
23:06	Apage43	devinus: I think it's about the same as the hold it has with node/python/ruby/etc., for prettymuch the reasons bbloom said
23:19	jonasen	seangrove: http://jida.herokuapp.com/?query-id=50bad538e4b02c359b552010
23:19	jonasen	seangrove: what happened with the datomic update? I saw you reverted it