#clojure – 2012-11-20

2012-11-20

00:10	alexyk	what's the mainstream way to do RESTful APIs nowadays?
00:11	wingy	i have an array of arrays and want to use queries like in datomic to get the missing values eg https://www.refheap.com/paste/6859
00:11	wingy	how do i do this? with the datalog in datomic or clojure.logic?
00:12	wingy	alexyk: i wonder that too
00:12	wingy	apigee? :)
00:15	Sgeo	Is there a find-in similar to get-in?
00:15	Sgeo	(doc find-in)
00:15	clojurebot	Excuse me?
00:15	Sgeo	Or should I just use get-in with a sentinal value?
00:21	amalloy	i think you want get-in, Sgeo, though of course you can fake it like (-> m (get-in [a b c]) (find d))
00:26	sw2wolf	Are there window-manager developed using clojure ?
00:29	amalloy	sw2wolf: technomancy has written some gnome extensions in cljs, but that's all i know of
00:35	sw2wolf	I am clojure newbie and i am using stumpwm every day. thx
00:37	ivan	someone barely started one at https://github.com/abrooks/prion
00:47	ambrosebs	RE: adding new CLJS specials. hiredman: thanks for the suggestion. From my perspective as a consumer of analysis, it seems like natural thing to do. But this will do for now.
00:57	bjorkintosh	why does (*) return 1, and (+) return 0?
00:57	bjorkintosh	what are they using as arguments?
00:57	ivan	no arguments, it's a useful identity for folds
00:58	sw2wolf	it is relative to mathematic
00:58	ivan	that is, reduce
01:01	ivan	&(reduce * [10])
01:01	lazybot	⇒ 10
01:24	muhoo	lein is complaining:
01:24	muhoo	[com.cemerick/pomegranate "0.0.13"] -> [org.apache.maven.wagon/wagon-http "2.2"] -> [org.apache.httpcomponents/httpclient "4.1.2"]
01:25	muhoo	where is pomegranate 0.0.13 coming from?
01:26	ambrosebs	tried lein deps :tree ?
01:26	muhoo	good call, i'd forgotten about that.
01:27	muhoo	the bigger problem seems to be that pomegranate wants httpclient 4.1.2, and i'm using clj-http 0.5.8 which wants httpclient 4.2.2
01:28	muhoo	haha, lein deps :tree fails, because of that conflict
01:28	Apage43	muhoo: exclude httpclient from whatever is bringing in pomegranate
01:29	Apage43	I had to do a similar thing; https://github.com/apage43/cbdrawer/blob/master/project.clj
01:29	muhoo	that's what it says to do, but still... i'd rather have everything agree than have to have exclusions all over the place
01:30	Apage43	well unless there's a version of pomegranate that specifies 4.2.2 and a version of the project that requires it which requires that version..
01:31	muhoo	:-/
01:31	muhoo	it sucks because i found where pomegranate is coming from, it's my repl profile. i have it so i can add libraries on the fly
01:31	muhoo	and if i exclude httpcore like lein is telling me, then pomegranate won't work.
01:31	Apage43	muhoo: you could add a newer httpcore to your repl profile
01:32	Apage43	along with the exclusion
01:32	muhoo	oh, hmm, good point, will try that thanks
01:32	gauravag_	has anyone tried testing clojure code at functional level?
01:32	gauravag_	or is there a good/recommended way to do it?
01:36	muhoo	gah, clj-http 0.5.8 is a nightmare
01:36	Apage43	mm?
01:36	muhoo	it's also causing compojure to not resolve, because it requires commons-io 2.4,
01:37	sw2wolf	the dependency hell is difficult to resolve
01:37	muhoo	there are 4 separate clusterfucks caused by clj-http 0.5.8. i need to find what older rev of clj-http that doesn't cause compojure and pomegranate to break
01:38	ro_st	we're using 0.5.5
01:38	ro_st	with ring
01:38	ro_st	s/ring/noir
01:38	muhoo	thanks! i can also do a lein deps :tree on pomegranate and compojure itself to see what clj-http they want
01:39	muhoo	hmm, is there any way to get lein to pick up a project.clj from inside a checkouts instead of from the SNAPSHOT jar?
01:41	muhoo	because the dependency hell in this case is coming from a library that i'm developing, once it gets included into a project that uses compojure.
01:42	ro_st	i don't think checkouts factors in project.clj files
01:42	ro_st	i think it simply treats the source in there as though it's part of the containing project
01:42	ro_st	because i know your containing project.clj has to include all the deps of the contained ones
01:44	Apage43	.. that sounds wrong
01:44	amalloy	ro_st: i don't think that last is true
01:44	Apage43	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md#checkout-dependencies
01:44	ro_st	not? i ran into issues when i didn't add them
01:45	amalloy	i've never used checkouts, but i've heard technomancy say that it's just used to replace source files, and the dependencies are resolved based on the jar in maven
01:45	ro_st	ah that's probably why i had issues; i didn't have a jar in place when i did my testing
01:45	muhoo	right, that'd explain why i'm stuck in this particular hell
01:46	ro_st	i had already put everything into containing project.clj by the time i did a lein install in the contained
01:46	ro_st	good to know. thanks for correcting me
01:46	muhoo	well i can manually copy pom files to ~/.m2 and generate sha1's to hack my way around this, but it sucks
01:46	muhoo	and fyi 0.5.6 also fails, will try 0.5.5 next. nothing like brute force and stupidity to solve a problem.
01:47	ro_st	and a good dose of humour
01:53	muhoo	0.5.5 fails, still wants 4.2.1
01:53	muhoo	pomegranate insists on an ancient version of clj-http i suspect
01:53	muhoo	and compojure wants an ancient version of commons-io
01:54	muhoo	will spend some time digging around here: https://clojars.org/clj-http/versions
01:55	muhoo	and maybe the next library will be one i can write to dig through the data on clojars.org to find the minimum least-common-version of all libraries to make the damn project load so i can start working on it
01:56	cemerick	muhoo: hardly any library "insists" on particular versions of dependencies
01:56	muhoo	true, but there are problems with using :exclusions, as i've mentioned earlier
01:57	cemerick	muhoo: in conjunction with default profiles, etc?
01:57	muhoo	yes
01:58	cemerick	well, I don't suspect there's any magic that's possible in this area. If you include version X of some lib in a default profile, but a project-specific lib wants version Y, that's going to be trouble.
01:58	muhoo	aha! https://clojars.org/clj-http/versions/0.3.6 looks like the winnah
01:59	Apage43	oh man
01:59	muhoo	commons-io 2.1, and httpclient 4.1.2. sold.
02:01	muhoo	cemerick: true, it'd be a manual process, assisted with some tool perhaps. i can't think of any way to make it truly automatic.
02:01	cemerick	muhoo: have you seen lein-pedantic?
02:02	muhoo	i think i'm running that already, yes. it gave me the list of :exclusions. very helpful.
02:02	cemerick	ok; that's the state of the art at the moment.
02:03	cemerick	perhaps something interrogatory would be useful, so you can choose a set of alternative project.clj transformations, etc.
02:03	muhoo	maybe i could submit a patch that'd have it spit out, after the :exclusions, a third option: "or, you could use clj-http 0.3.6 which is the maximum version that doesn't conflict with pomegranate and compojure"
02:03	muhoo	it could get that data from clojars, which is how i found it.
02:04	muhoo	or maybe clojure atlas could be extended to show the web of library dependencies :-)
02:06	cemerick	well, all of the data is available via pomegranate for anyone industrious enough to put together a proper visualization :-)
02:07	amalloy	how would you figure out, just from information on clojars, what versions don't cause problems?
02:09	muhoo	the process i just followed was: lein-pedantic told me what version pomegranate wanted of httpclient, and what version of commons-io that compojure wanted. then,
02:10	muhoo	since it also told me that clj-http was the culprit bringing in newer versions of both those things,
02:10	muhoo	i looked through the older versions of clj-http on clojars, until i found one that satisfied both.
02:11	muhoo	(if that makes any sense at all)
02:12	cemerick	amalloy: some have suggested combinatorial exploratory testing, for these purposes as well as for determining e.g. what one might break in downstream projects given a particular changeset, etc
02:12	amalloy	not really a general solution, though - it's perfectly possible for there to be no set of version that satisfies all the constraints
02:12	muhoo	yes, that's what makes me wonder if it might be an interesting problem.
02:13	amalloy	hah. well, as long as you're aware that the reason you find it interesting is that it's impossible. otherwise you could wind up disappointed
02:14	muhoo	p/np? it might be in the realm of the solvable. i haven't given it enough thought, and not even sure i'm capable of giving it the right kind of thought.
02:21	lpvb	why doesn't counterclockwise have basic REPL input history?
02:22	ivan	maybe you have to hold down ctrl or alt or something? (haven't tried it)
02:22	sw2wolf	sorry, What's counterclockwise ?
02:22	ivan	indeed or you've launched the wrong REPL?
02:22	ivan	er, indeed http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5924228/last-input-in-counterclockwise-repl
02:23	lpvb	eclipse plugin
02:23	lpvb	oh okay
02:23	sw2wolf	oh, i dont use eclipse
02:29	ro_st	cemerick: cljx stuff looks interesting
02:30	cemerick	yup; quite useful, and a good stopgap until feature expressions come around
04:13	maleghast	Morning All :-)
04:55	ambrosebs	Is there a library like Trammel or core.contracts for CLJS?
04:59	ambrosebs	Hmm seems like such a library wouldn't be as useful for CLJS.
04:59	ambrosebs	I've just got a ton of Trammeled code I was thinking of porting.
05:14	deu5	Hi i have a little problem. I've wrote web app in noir. I have run in on my server. Now i problem with links. My "localhost" directory is the directory where i run my app ? (i'va commpiled it to jar)
05:18	thorwil	deu5: i think you will have to tell a little more about your setup and what exactly goes wrong
05:26	deu5	Ok i have a web app which i run in my home directory. There i have a directory with files (over 6GB) I would like to make a link in my web app to files from this directory.
05:26	otfrom	Next London Clojure dojo is up: http://london-clojure-dojo-tw-2012-11.eventbrite.co.uk/
05:28	deu5	thorwil I can recompile my project with this dir
05:28	thorwil	deu5: do you know how to serve files in general? if not, the 2nd section of http://yogthos.net/blog/25 might help
05:30	thorwil	deu5: no waut, forget about that, as they put files into a database
05:30	rodnaph	otfrom: those dojo's look ace, if i lived in london i'd be there.
05:31	deu5	thorwil I need to know how to make links to file which are not in the project directories.
05:31	maleghast	rodnaph: They are ace, but if you can't come to London why not start one where you are..?
05:32	rodnaph	maleghast: actually yes, me and a few others are thinking of trying a hack night that would run along the dojo idea.
05:32	thorwil	deu5: locally you can do that with symlinks, i suppose. but hat happens if you deploy, then?
05:34	maleghast	rodnaph: The organisers behind the London one, otfrom and others (whose names may or may not have IRC analogues in this room) are one of the core reasons that I've had the confidence to start using Clojure more and more and to push it as a viable technology at my job. You could be that dude for a whole new community!
05:34	Anderkent	How do I read a file into a byte array? to-byte-array from contrib.io doesn't seem to be anywhere
05:34	clgv	Anderkent: via filestream e.g.
05:35	rodnaph	maleghast: i've already got that crackpot reputation! ;)
05:36	deu5	so there is no other easy option?
05:42	otfrom	rodnaph: I did a smallish post on how to run a dojo here: http://otfrom.wordpress.com/2012/07/04/how-to-run-a-london-clojure-dojo-in-20ish-easy-steps/
05:43	rodnaph	otfrom: yes i've already read it thanks - that's pretty much what we were going to follow :)
05:43	otfrom	oh, and from a general grow the community PoV, @jr0cket has 109 people signed up for his clojure for java devs talk http://www.meetup.com/Londonjavacommunity/events/90658542/
05:44	otfrom	rodnaph: cool, I hope it is useful
05:44	otfrom	rodnaph: what will your silly question be?
05:45	otfrom	I feel that is the most important bit (well, that and the hacking)
05:45	rodnaph	otfrom: yes it was. i help run a cardiff tech meetup called unifieddiff.co.uk, so was thinking of possibly involving a dojo in that somehow.
05:46	otfrom	cool
05:47	rodnaph	otfrom: i like that silly question idea, no idea what to ask though... heh. what kind of things do u usually do? tech based? or just general personal fun stuff?
05:48	Anderkent	clgv: I can't see any filestream classes/functions with byte array output, can you point me at one?
05:48	otfrom	last night it was what preposition would you want added to your name
05:49	otfrom	answers were: that, not only, around, under, with, in
05:49	otfrom	my fave was: if you couldn't be called Bruce, what would you like to be called
05:49	otfrom	only one person said that their own name was fine
05:49	otfrom	and I was the only Bruce in the room
05:49	rodnaph	haha
06:03	deu5	Ok. When I run web app in Noir and i would like to make link to a file then Noir search this file in "public" folder in my project. Is there an option that it will search this file somewhere else ?
06:09	Anderkent	deu5: you probably don't want to do that, how do you check whether the file should be publicly visible?
06:10	deu5	I must do that. I have compiled my project to a JAR. Directories with all those files weight over 6 GB. Can you see any other way to do that?
06:10	deu5	My web app search a file name in my database then create a link to this file. But all files are in other directories.
06:11	deu5	Anderkent now you see ? I couldn't find any other way to do this.
06:22	Anderkent	deu5: you should symlink all the files you want to expose in one directory, then symlink that directory under public
06:25	qerub	Who coined "DATA all the things"? :)
06:31	Foxboron	qerub: http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/gallery/x-all-the-things/x-all-the-things-template.jpg
06:32	qerub	Foxboron: I meant DATA as in DATA: https://twitter.com/mike_ivanov/status/269079215197024256 :)
06:33	qerub	I've heard lynaghk use it too. He said he heard it from any of his friends.
06:33	qerub	Oh, well, not so important. Sorry for the noise.
06:38	Foxboron	qerub, the reff from ClojureCon says it emerged last year and was "hammered home here.", where i believe "here" is the blog
06:38	Foxboron	http://corfield.org/blog/post.cfm/clojure-conj-2012
06:46	deu5	Compiled noir project to jar is faster ?
06:48	ambrosebs	any other Conj 2012 posts?
06:49	maleghast	I so wish I'd been able to go to Clojure Conj this year… :-(
06:53	qerub	Foxboron: Thank you for digging that up! <3
06:55	Foxboron	qerub, digging? First hit on google m8 :P
06:56	qerub	The Google-fu is strong with this one.
07:13	Foxboron	i was just thinking:
07:13	Foxboron	Since you got noir for Clojure, and ClojureScript for Javascript
07:13	Foxboron	doesnt that mean you could basically build an entire website just by using clojure..?
07:14	Foxboron	<- newb making sudden discoveries.
07:15	trinakria	That is what I am actually trying to build: A dummy web site using only a clojure stack (datomic as db)
07:16	Foxboron	Interesting.
07:18	trinakria	you'd really have to master only one technology
07:29	bordatoue	i need your opinion on this issue, every time when i am editing a file , do i need to reload the file and then explicitly mention (use 'editedfile) in the repl to see the modified code or there any other way to do it
07:29	Foxboron	trinakria, i feel that is a rather downside of it all, but its more fun :P
07:30	thorwil	bordatoue: nrepl or slime?
07:30	bordatoue	thorwil: slime
07:31	bordatoue	in eclipse it seems to work just by reloading a file, but in slime i need to explicity type use every time i reload a file
07:32	thorwil	bordatoue: not 100% sure, but i think there are commands to reload a file (no need for use then) and to evaluate a region or sexp "into" the repl
07:32	bordatoue	i do evaluate region, that i need to specify the name space in repl each time
07:33	bordatoue	i am using C-c C-r for region evaluation and C-c C-l for loading
07:33	thorwil	bordatoue: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2596222/how-to-reload-files-upon-save-when-using-swankleiningenemacs perhaps?
07:35	bordatoue	so i need to compile the file rather than reloading them
07:37	mpenet	there is an alternative I use sometimes: you do your testing on the file itself (in a comment form or after a fn), and just use C-c C-c to relaod the fn you are working on and the same for the "tests
07:37	mpenet	you need to C-c C-k the file first, if you do that
07:37	bordatoue	mpenet: thorwil thanks, interesting idea
07:38	thorwil	this is also very interesting: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11306704/reloading-a-ns-in-repl
07:38	trinakria	Foxborn: why do you see it as a downside?
07:39	bordatoue	what is the actual common lisp way of doing this
07:39	Foxboron	trinakria, staying with only one language todo everything is not very good in my eyes.
07:39	Foxboron	If Ruby is better suited for the task, you still stick with clojure, and clojure only. because it can do everything
07:40	Foxboron	You stop learning and just stick with repetitons.
07:41	trinakria	I am not a clojure expert but it seems to me a general purpose programming language
07:41	Foxboron	me either, i started 3 days ago :P
07:42	Foxboron	But well, diversity is gold in my eyes :)
07:42	algernon	diversity is good if a certain tool is better for a task than the other.
07:42	ambrosebs	I'm trying to write a leiningen 2 plugin. Is it possible to make it run with clojure 1.5.0-beta1? It seems lein automatically uses 1.4 or something.
07:42	trinakria	polyglot programming I'd say
07:42	trinakria	:-)
07:42	thorwil	general purpose except everything where startup time is critical, or where you need low leel hardware access, or where (soft) realtime performance is an issue
07:43	Foxboron	indeed ^^
07:43	Foxboron	Imagen if Clojure could do it all.
07:43	clgv	ambrosebs: better ask in #leiningen
07:43	ambrosebs	clgv: ah!
07:43	trinakria	startup time is an issue of the JVM
07:43	algernon	(diversity also sucks when the codebase will have to be maintained by a different team. a stack in a single language is much easier to maintain)
07:44	Foxboron	algernon, ah. Great argument :D
07:44	Foxboron	trinakria, i know. Like 1,3 sec for a Hello World
07:44	trinakria	indeed :-)
07:44	Foxboron	you got a project saving the JDK stuff in memory
07:44	Foxboron	reducing the startup from 1,3 sec to 0,3 sec
07:44	Foxboron	(along those lines)
08:04	gauravag	hello
08:14	bruceadams	gauravag: good morning!
08:55	fojure	lein profiles FTW!
08:55	fojure	Thanks technomancy
09:15	ivenkys	afternoon folks - i am missing something obvious here - how does this work ? http://sprunge.us/aWFg
09:16	ucb	ivenkys: try following the recursion with pen and paper :)
09:17	ivenkys	ucb: actually i did - i still dont get it - there is no checking if n is divisible by 2 - so how is it working ?
09:18	bordatoue	hello, how do i update nth char in a string, for example in python it would be like s[nth]=char
09:18	ucb	+1 nDuff
09:18	ivenkys	nDuff: yup i noted that as well -
09:18	ivenkys	bordatoue: (nth [] index)
09:19	ivenkys	bordatoue: ignore me - i read your question incorrectly -
09:20	ucb	ivenkys: the trick is that you're composing N times (not ...) ultimately with true. If N is odd, you'll have odd-nots and hence get a fals
09:20	ucb	false
09:20	bordatoue	ivenkys: thats alrite, your returns the char
09:20	nDuff	bordatoue: convert to an array of chars first
09:20	nDuff	bordatoue: replacing individual characters in immutable strings is inefficient, in Python as well as Java.
09:20	bordatoue	nDuff: then i can do a seq on string to get it
09:20	nDuff	bordatoue: ...pardon?
09:21	ivenkys	ucb: penny drops - yes of course
09:21	nDuff	bordatoue: see getChars() in http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html
09:21	ucb	ivenkys: :)
09:21	ivenkys	ucb: thank you sir - i have it here all drawn out and still did not get it -
09:21	nDuff	bordatoue: ...there's also getBytes(), but that gets ugly when dealing with multi-byte characters.
09:21	ucb	ivenkys: it's ok; it's nearly identical to church-numerals, so that's why I figured it out
09:22	bordatoue	nDuff: can i use any form of indexing to update a char after i covnert it into an array, say i use seq to get sequence then how can i update a value in an index
09:22	ucb	ivenkys: that's something you may want to check out
09:22	nDuff	bordatoue: sequences aren't updatable
09:22	nDuff	bordatoue: so you'd want it in a vector if you want fast random-access writes.
09:23	bordatoue	nDuff: as you mentioned if i used getCharArray then how do i update an idx location
09:23	nDuff	bordatoue: ...or you can keep it in a Java array
09:23	nDuff	bordatoue: ...which is the format the String methods will return it to you in anyhow...
09:23	nDuff	bordatoue: ...and use interop calls to modify.
09:23	ucb	ivenkys: see this for some fun application of church numerals https://www.refheap.com/paste/5073
09:23	nDuff	bordatoue: aset, aget, &c.
09:23	ucb	ivenkys: shameless plug: I adapted that to clojure from a Ruby post :)
09:24	bordatoue	nDuff: okay, thanks aset aget is similar to operations on array
09:24	nDuff	bordatoue: not just similar, that's exactly what they are.
09:24	nDuff	,(doc aset)
09:24	clojurebot	"([array idx val] [array idx idx2 & idxv]); Sets the value at the index/indices. Works on Java arrays of reference types. Returns val."
09:24	bordatoue	thanks very much
09:25	antoineB	hello, i don't manage to modify the macro http://www.50ply.com/blog/2012/07/08/extending-closure-from-clojurescript/ in https://gist.github.com/2830a82227d881a9d90a
09:25	antoineB	i don't understand at all
09:25	ivenkys	ucb: ta - looks like its time to refresh calculus as well -
09:26	ucb	ivenkys: it depends on how pragmatic you're feeling really
09:34	ivenkys	ucb: true that -
09:34	ivenkys	ucb: i guess at some point to really understand functional programming i will have to learn lambda-calculus
09:35	ucb	ivenkys: I learnt it many many moons ago and I don't remember it; can't claim to be a guru but I know a thing or two about FP :)
09:35	ivenkys	or if i get very ambitious and decide to learn haskell
09:36	ucb	ivenkys: my point is: don't beat yourself too much with it, build things, have fun and you'll learn a thing or two in the process
09:37	ivenkys	ucb: tkx - appreciate the help -
09:37	antoineB	ivenkys: don't lean fp as a dogma, but as a way of doing better/quicker programs
09:37	ucb	+1 antoineB
09:37	antoineB	if you know clojure, i don't think you will have problems with haskell, i am right?
09:37	ucb	and no worries; just build stuff and have fun ivenkys
09:38	ucb	well, there's that type-system thing ...
09:38	brainproxy	antoineB: the focus on types and monads could lead to some head-scratching at first
09:38	antoineB	not a big deal, clojure also have type and give me some exception some type
09:39	brainproxy	antoineB: I have found, though, that after spending 6 months w/ clojure, I'm having an easier time experimenting with / understanding some beginner's haskell stuff
09:40	brainproxy	now, what I would like to see, is the ability to fluidly mix Frege and Clojure in the same project
09:40	antoineB	i will bet that scala is harder to learn (i mean the whole stuff) than haskell
09:41	brainproxy	so maybe a Frege-Clojure runtime bridge at some point, and leiningen integration
09:41	ivenkys	one of my mate says - With Lisp/Clojure you write 10 lines in 30 minutes and 5 of them work , with Haskell you right 1 line after 30 minutes of thinking but it works"
09:42	nDuff	ivan: your mate may find Typed Clojure interesting
09:43	miloshadzic	from my Haskell days, I remember there being a horribly steep learning curve unless you were already studying programming lanugages
09:43	ivenkys	nDuff: he does Typed Racket - and Haskell - one of the only guys i know who actually gets paid for working with those languages
09:44	nDuff	ivan: nod. Typed Clojure borrows a fair bit from Typed Racket, so I doubt it'd be unfamiliar.
09:44	ivenkys	nDuff: you probly mean ivenkys :-) - ( i am hoping there is no ivan getting pinged )
09:44	nDuff	...ahh, yes.
09:45	randomenduser	hello, I'm reading http://www.clojurebook.com/ and I don't understand why https://gist.github.com/4118317 returns ({:age 34, :name "Sara", :location "NYC"}) . shouldn't it return the other 2? (where age is actually <= 25)
09:45	randomenduser	and then (remove ... would return the above?
09:45	brainproxy	randomenduser: did you check the errata page?
09:45	randomenduser	removing the ones that satisfy the condition
09:45	nDuff	randomenduser: ...so, it runs (<= 25 21), (<= 25 20) and (<= 25 34)
09:45	randomenduser	brainproxy: no, I'll bring it up now
09:46	randomenduser	nDuff: ohh, that makes sense. still getting used to prefix I guess :S
09:47	deu5	Do you know any lib for creating and reading office xls with clojure?
09:47	brainproxy	randomenduser: I found it pretty helpful to keep the "unconfirmed errata" page close at hand when working through the book
09:47	ivenkys	~ pastebin
09:47	clojurebot	I don't understand.
09:48	randomenduser	brainproxy: thanks, found it :)
09:48	brainproxy	randomenduser: cool :)
09:48	ivenkys	is there a default pastebin ?
09:48	nDuff	ivenkys: refheap and gist.github.com are both welcome here
09:48	babilen	ivenkys: http://refheap.com is one that is frequently used in here
09:49	ivenkys	nDuff: babilen : ta
09:49	nDuff	...well, Raynes might harass you a bit for gist, being as it is not-refheap. :)
09:52	babilen	ivenkys: There are plenty of others, but I've been criticised in the past for using a "wrong" one ...
09:54	ivenkys	yeah i have seen that happen on other channels as well - - usually there happens to be a default one
09:54	nDuff	there aren't _that_ many ones wrong enough to draw criticism... mostly just pastebin.com
09:57	S11001001	"has ads" is a good proxy for "wrong"
09:57	S11001001	rather "has ads or lacks clojure syntax highlighting"
09:59	S11001001	some chans put one in the /topic; that seems to be a good indicator of strictness too
10:00	clgv	I have a problem with primitive functions (https://www.refheap.com/paste/6873) it seems that at the end of the function Double.valueOf(prevResult).doubleValue() is executed. why is that?
10:01	clgv	ah right. it is clojure 1.3 right now
10:06	bryanl	I'm looking for a way to sample non-uniform discrete probability distributions in clojure. Any suggestions before i go looking for some monte carlo support?
10:06	clgv	that defeats the whole point of having a primitive function :(
10:06	pyr	when using the history to figure out where we are in a cljscript app
10:06	pyr	for instance with snout, is there a concept of "default" route
10:08	pyr	hmm, i suppose i could fire up an event myself
10:11	xclite	Is clojure/tools.cli the common route to go for a command-line arg parser?
10:14	clgv	xclite: it's working.
10:14	babilen	xclite: It's the best there is AFAIK even though it lacks a lot of functionality
10:16	xclite	clgv, babilen thanks - just wanted to make sure i wasn't using something that everybody knew had been replaced long ago
10:34	fojure	Anyone notice NREPL eating return values?
10:35	fojure	That is, nrepl.el + emacs + nrepl-jack-in. It seems that if I ever add a println to a function, the reporting its return value gets lost until I restart nrepl :-(
10:37	brainproxy	clojure-tco looks interesting
10:43	clgv	brainproxy: oh indeed
10:43	tgoossens	is it overkill if i try to make a board game with no identity at all. I want to see how far i can push it
10:44	clgv	tgoossens: by "identity" you mean "mutable state"?
10:44	tgoossens	yes
10:45	tgoossens	no
10:45	tgoossens	"mutable references" i try to avoid "mutable state" (detail)
10:45	randomenduser	if I have a tuple [a b], and b is a vector contaning some maps (for instance: ["cool" [{:story "and"} {:stuff "yep"}]]), how can I remove some key-value pair from the map in each vector?
10:47	clgv	randomenduser: repeated update-in might work. depends on how a larger dataset looks like
10:47	randomenduser	clgv: it's just a small piece in the repl
10:47	tgoossens	clgv: do you think i'm trying to push it too much ?
10:48	randomenduser	I'm just trying to figure out how to do it to get more practice w/these types
10:48	clgv	tgoossens: no. I think there are others who did something similar. you can search the ML for it
10:49	tgoossens	ML ?
10:49	clgv	mailing list
10:49	tgoossens	ok
10:51	uvtc	What is the purpose of putting a `defn` inside a `let` (where the `let` is at the top-level)? For example, right after the `ns` macro at https://github.com/ato/lein-clojars/blob/master/src/leiningen/push.clj .
10:51	randomenduser	clgv: hmm, I'm trying to use group-by, then remove the key that was used for the grouping (because it's now a key of the parent map)
10:52	babilen	randomenduser: Hmm, I've written something like that recently ... let me check
10:52	clgv	uvtc: to define a local binding which that defn statement can close over
10:53	randomenduser	babilen: thanks. it seems like it should be easy but I'm fairly new to this
10:53	mpenet	(def (let [...] (fn [] ...))) looks better imho
10:53	uvtc	clgv: But couldn't you always put the `let` inside the `defn` instead?
10:54	uvtc	(defn foo "docs" [x] (let [first-thing ...] ...))
10:54	Bronsa	that's not the same thing
10:54	clgv	uvtc: but then its executed on every function invocation. if it's just a value than it does not matter
10:54	clgv	*then
10:55	uvtc	Oh, so you'd use a `let` on the outside when you want to compute something only once, and then use the result thereafter in every call to the function.
10:56	babilen	randomenduser: Do you have an example of the behaviour you want, so that I could test?
10:56	uvtc	Bronsa: were you addressing me or mpenet above?
10:56	Bronsa	uvtc: you :)
10:56	uvtc	Bronsa: thanks.
10:57	Bronsa	uvtc: eg (let [counter (atom 1)] (defn unuque-int [] (swap! counter inc)))
10:57	Bronsa	it's called a closure
10:58	uvtc	Bronsa: right. Thanks. I'm familiar with closures. But my understanding was that defns should always only go at the top-level.
10:58	randomenduser	babilen: https://gist.github.com/4118756
10:58	uvtc	Even though the `defn` is inside the `let`, looks like you still get a regular function --- just as if the `defn` was made at the top-level.
10:58	uvtc	clgv: thanks.
10:59	antoineB	uvtc: defn use def, and def always go to the top level
11:00	uvtc	antoineB: gotcha. Thanks.
11:01	babilen	randomenduser: yeah, that would be it. I've done something like https://www.refheap.com/paste/6876 (but you have to come up with a better name!)
11:01	randomenduser	ooo dang, this refheap thing is shiny
11:01	randomenduser	has persona too
11:03	clgv	uvtc: `def` forms are always toplevel even if you nest them
11:03	uvtc	clgv: check
11:05	babilen	randomenduser: You might want to use sets as values though (if appropriate)
11:05	babilen	randomenduser: Is that more or less what you are looking for?
11:06	randomenduser	babilen: yeah, I have to sift through the docs a bit to understand it. but it seems pretty minimal, so thank you
11:08	babilen	randomenduser: Let me know if you have a question -- I'll get a coffee in the meanwhile. :)
11:16	lnostdal	does nrepl.el support "clickable" stack traces yet? .. e.g. via the V key? .. i'm flipping back and forth between it and swank-clojure + slime ..
11:23	babilen	randomenduser: Hmm, you can probably implement that in terms of reduce-by too
11:25	randomenduser	babilen: is that not in clojure.core?
11:25	randomenduser	actually I g2g... I'll bb in ~1:30 though
11:26	babilen	randomenduser: (reduce-by :artist #(conj %1 (dissoc %2 :artist)) [] playlist) -- reduce-by is introduced in the Clojure Programming book
11:36	jsabeaudry	What is the most idiomatic way to compare two floats up to the third decimal? (apply = (map #(Math/round (* 1000 %)) [float1 float2]))
11:39	babilen	jsabeaudry: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6877 + http://www.gettingclojure.com/cookbook:numbers
11:39	babilen	jsabeaudry: That doesn't really compare them up to the third decimal though ...
11:42	bordatoue	what would be the best way to handle situation where loop has fewer binding than the recur, for exmpl i have (loop b1 b2 b3) .....(recur b1 b2 b3 b4) i need to execute b4 as it is depended on b3 but the value is not important
11:42	babilen	bordatoue: Introduce it in the loop with a dummy value?
11:43	bordatoue	babilen: is that recommended way is there any thing like [ _ _]
11:44	babilen	bordatoue: nil comes to mind
11:44	bordatoue	babilen: thats an idea , can i use nil in the loop binding it make it even with the recur binding
11:46	babilen	bordatoue: What do you mean by "make it even" ?
11:47	bordatoue	babilen: to have the same amount of binding for both loop and recur
11:47	babilen	bordatoue: Yeah, that was the general idea
11:47	bordatoue	babilen: cool then
11:48	babilen	bordatoue: Something along the lines of (loop [b1 foo b2 bar b3 quux b4 nil] .... (recur foo' bar' quux' something-new))
11:49	bordatoue	if i a have a form (op1 (op x1) (op x2) (op x3)) is the order of evaluation always going to be from left to right is it definied
11:49	bordatoue	babilen: thatnk
11:50	bordatoue	horrible spelling , ==> thanks
11:50	jsabeaudry	babilen, excellent resources, many thanks!
11:50	babilen	bordatoue: Can't be more specific without knowing the problem domain though. And yes, they will be evaluated in that order IIRC
11:51	babilen	jsabeaudry: Is that a better solution than what you were trying to do? I found that the method described therein works okay for what I am doing, but it might not be what you want.
11:52	jsabeaudry	babilen, Yes It's better, mainly because it is much more readable :)
11:52	babilen	heh :)
11:53	jsabeaudry	Too bad everyone has to define these functions though
11:53	babilen	indeed
11:58	yedi	why is liberal use of 'let' considered a bad thing?
12:00	TimMc	yedi: Perhaps a better question is "when", not "why". :-)
12:03	S11001001	yedi: let causes mental indirections
12:04	TimMc	S11001001: You're referring to repeated rebinding?
12:05	S11001001	TimMc: in the expression (let [x blah] (f x)) you have to mentally chase the x
12:05	thorwil	let is good for avoiding having one thing computed several times
12:06	uvtc	I tend to think of functions as, `let` sets everything up, then the body of the function does something with it.
12:06	S11001001	TimMc: and if x is a bad name (which it frequently is) its name can get in the way of understanding what it is
12:06	uvtc	Heh. Sorry for stating the obvious, I guess. :)
12:07	babilen	yedi: It also causes the code to flow right quite rapidly ... That issue has been discussed on the mailing list recently and people mentioned ways to deal with it.
12:07	babilen	uvtc: sometimes you have to do just that ;)
12:08	babilen	yedi: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/clojure/B2Wo5Oe1OrI/V9WGOJXkJQUJ
12:12	tgoossens	In a board game. i defined a robot. It has a type and health. The position of a robot is stored in the board.
12:12	tgoossens	Because i want to define a robot (in general piece) indepentently of position in a world
12:12	tgoossens	the problem i have is
12:12	tgoossens	where do i put facing direction?
12:13	tgoossens	in order to be consistent with my premise
12:14	tgoossens	also i'm using not using references here. A robot is just a value
12:14	tgoossens	i'm not sure whether i'm going to run into problems when i want to move a robot.
12:14	tgoossens	because of the question "what robot? do you want to move"
12:15	tgoossens	what is there is a robot on the board with exactly the same values
12:15	tgoossens	or it might not matter because. you could say
12:16	tgoossens	"move that piece on position [x y] on this board forward"
12:16	tgoossens	not sure :)
12:16	tgoossens	any advice?
12:16	seangrove	Anyone else using Domina & recent cljsbuild in a project? Domina.css causes a java.lang.NullPointerException, having trouble tracking it down
12:18	thorwil	tgoossens: isn't facing-direction independent of the board (eg "north")?
12:18	seangrove	In fact, in general, how does one track down a bug like this?
12:18	tgoossens	thorwil: i was thinking that as well yes
12:19	tgoossens	thorwil: but not entirely sure. But it is probably the best solution i can think of
12:20	tgoossens	thorwil: do you think it is a good or a bad idea that i'm avoiding using state here ?
12:20	clgv	tgoossens: represent the robot as map like {:robot-id 1, :facing-direction :north}. when the game advance you can use assoc to create the new incarnation of the robot with a different direction
12:22	tgoossens	clgv: maybe the idea is not such a bad idea... . I'm wondering whether the id is better than using identity. I guess so
12:22	thorwil	tgoossens: you can't avoid state. you can only manage it
12:23	clgv	tgoossens: oh the id was not what I wanted to show, I just added it to make clear that's the robot
12:24	tgoossens	thorwil: i think it might be possible to completely avoid state here. But i'm not sure whether that would be a good thing
12:24	technomancy	any lein-cljsbuild users want to let me know if trampoline is still necessary on lein master?
12:26	thorwil	tgoossens: posistions, health, directions of all robots are all state. how could you make that disappear? it's just that there are several ways to model it and a number of strategies for state changes
12:28	TimMc	You could have each robot be an agent.
12:29	TimMc	(if they didn't need to advance in lockstep)
12:30	clgv	TimMc: I think he wants to write it pure functional
12:31	TimMc	In that case, keep a vector of robots separate from the board. Both can live in a gamestate map (or record).
12:31	TimMc	The robot's ID is its index in the vector.
12:33	hiredman	I think http://blip.tv/clojure/clojure-concurrency-819147 has rich talking about ants.clj, which may be interesting if you are writing a simulation / game
12:33	tgoossens	clgv: yes. as an exercise i'm trying to see how far I can push this by using only pure functional stuff. To then, review the result afterwards and compare it with pure OO
12:33	TimMc	OO is not the opposite of functional.
12:33	tgoossens	i didn't say that
12:34	ChongLi	can anything be the opposite of functional?
12:34	ChongLi	seems like a weird idea
12:34	tgoossens	i merely suggested they have different idiomatic concepts
12:34	TimMc	(Well, depending on how one defines "functional".)
12:34	tgoossens	concretely
12:34	ChongLi	ahhh
12:34	tgoossens	i've done the game with mutables now.
12:34	tgoossens	and
12:35	TimMc	I guess what I meant was: OO does not necessarily imply mutable.
12:35	ChongLi	idiomatic is starting to become a pet peeve of mine
12:35	tgoossens	now i want to try to see how much immutable stuff i can put into it
12:35	ChongLi	it's turning into the new "literally"
12:35	tgoossens	Timmc: i agree on that one
12:35	ChongLi	at least in programming circles
12:35	ChongLi	what do we really mean when we say idiomatic?
12:35	TimMc	ChongLi: YOU ARE NOT IDIOMATIC. BAN
12:36	tgoossens	maybe better would be to say
12:36	tgoossens	i tried to make the game idiomatically in java
12:36	tgoossens	(not in general OO)
12:36	ChongLi	I know what idiomatic means in natural language (such as english)
12:36	ChongLi	and it has nothing to do with the programming term idiomatic
12:36	TimMc	My new hobby: Every time someone says "non-idiomatic", I mentally replace it with "un-American". (cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism)
12:37	ChongLi	idioms in english are weird phrases such as "she's pulling my leg" or "the devil is in the details"
12:37	nDuff	ChongLi: I tend find the parallels between the meanings easier to draw. In both cases, there are a conventional way to say a thing.
12:37	alexnixon	ChongLi: see the first definition http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/idiomatic
12:38	ChongLi	they violate the principle of compositionality because the truth of those statements does not follow from their component parts
12:38	alexnixon	ChongLi: I'd say that applies equally to natural and programming languages
12:38	t-goossens	Hmm
12:38	maleghast	ChongLi: I'm afraid that you are not correct about that. In general the word "idiomatic" has another meaning and that meaning is "in keeping with the style and form of the language" for example a literal translation of "I am warm" into French would be "Je suis chaud", but the correct, idiomatic French is "J'ai chaud" which means "I have warm".
12:38	nDuff	ChongLi: ...see also the musical definition given behind alexnixon's link.
12:39	lynaghk	qerub: I first heard the "Data all the things" expression from Alan Dipert this past summer.
12:39	ChongLi	it sounds to me like we have a blanket definition
12:39	ChongLi	that covers related but distinct ideas
12:39	alexnixon	maleghast: well, "je suis chaud" is not "un-idiomatic", it's a mistranslation..
12:40	qerub	lynaghk: ok! Thanks! :)
12:40	maleghast	in other words, idiomatic is a perfectly valid word to use when talking about the clojure-esque way of approaching a solution or the way in which Rubyists refer to "the Ruby way"
12:40	ChongLi	I want to tackle the first definition then
12:40	ChongLi	forget about esoteric idioms
12:40	ChongLi	Pertaining or conforming to the mode of expression characteristic of a language.
12:40	ChongLi	that's the first definition
12:41	ChongLi	to conform to such a definition isn't it sufficient that one conform to a valid expression in the language?
12:41	maleghast	ChongLi: Precisely - as such there is an entirely appropriate use of the word here.
12:42	t_goossens	Its probably
12:42	alexnixon	ChongLi: take 100 seasoned clojure developers and give them a problem to solve in clojure. The majority will have solutions which look similar - that's idiomatic clojure.
12:42	maleghast	alexnixon: Thanks - quicker and better than I could manage :-) +1
12:42	t_goossens	Me not quite sure yet what I want to achieve
12:42	ChongLi	so the definition of idiomatic now depends on an appeal to popularity?
12:42	alexnixon	ChongLi: yes
12:42	thorwil	ideomatic is a cromulent word, a nice way to embiggen your vocabulary
12:43	maleghast	ChongLi: popularity based on a consensus opinion of best practice
12:43	ChongLi	isn't a consensus something different?
12:43	t_goossens	Just been busy with clojure for two months. Just experimenting I guess :)
12:43	maleghast	thorwil: "corpulent" Nice word! ;-)
12:44	maleghast	s/corpulent/cromulent - Bloody auto-correct!
12:44	nDuff	ChongLi: Things can be valid within a language without being characteristic of it.
12:44	ChongLi	nDuff: I'm not sure what you mean
12:44	ChongLi	isn't a computer language defined only by its rules?
12:45	thorwil	no. a computer language also comes with intentions of the creators that might not fully reduce to said rules
12:45	thorwil	add many users and you start to see "culture"
12:45	alexnixon	ChongLi: (defn add-two [x] (+ x 12 (- 10))
12:45	nDuff	ChongLi: Determining whether a given piece of expression written in a language is characteristic of that language is a determination which can be made by humans, in terms of whether the expression is a "typical" example.
12:46	ChongLi	I see
12:46	nDuff	ChongLi: ...consider how someone reading a passage in a human language can tell if it's written by a native speaker, even if it perfectly conforms to the rules of grammar.
12:47	ChongLi	so how do you make a determination whether a program is idiomatic or not if it has never been written by anyone else before?
12:47	ChongLi	nDuff: that's very, very subjective
12:47	nDuff	ChongLi: Yes, it is.
12:47	alexnixon	ChongLi: break it into sub-problems, and see if the solutions to those are idiomatic
12:47	nDuff	ChongLi: likewise, programming language idioms are subjective.
12:47	nDuff	ChongLi: ...but eventually, consensus emerges.
12:47	ChongLi	alexnixon: what if the program is non-compositional?
12:48	alexnixon	ChongLi: I don't understand what you mean by that
12:48	nDuff	ChongLi: the manner in which the program is composed or built is, itself, a characteristic which can be used in the evaluation.
12:48	ChongLi	something is compositional if it can be broken into sub-problems which make any sense
12:49	ChongLi	for example, "the devil in the details" is non-compositional
12:49	alexnixon	ChongLi: I don't believe there's any program you can't break down
12:49	ChongLi	because you cannot examine the parts to learn the truth of the whole
12:50	alexnixon	I think we're in danger of getting overly philosophical
12:50	ChongLi	if you were to do that, you'd be stuck with a literal devil
12:50	ChongLi	which doesn't make any sense
12:50	ChongLi	no, philosophy has great implications for computer programs
12:51	ChongLi	one such case is referentially transparent/opaque contexts
12:52	ChongLi	you cannot substitute into a referentially opaque context without changing the meaning of the expression
12:52	alexnixon	sure
12:52	ChongLi	well in a language like clojure (indeed any lisp) you run into these whenever you talk about symbols
12:53	alexnixon	logic is a concern of philosophy, as is computability. I'm just saying that in this specific instance I don't think it's helpful.
12:53	ChongLi	how so?
12:54	ChongLi	another good example might be mutual recursion
12:55	ChongLi	breaking apart a mutual recursion makes little sense, as the parts are defined in terms of eachother
12:57	alexnixon	the use of mutual recursion implies you've broken your problem down into components. I'm not saying they're useful when taken in isolation, just that you can look at each piece and evaluate it (and also evaluate the program in its entirety).
12:59	ChongLi	yeah I suppose
12:59	ChongLi	but I don't see how you could determine whether it was idiomatic or not
12:59	ChongLi	especially if it expressed something you had never seen before
13:01	alexnixon	you might not have seen the exact same problem before, but it's a pretty safe bet the same 'shape' of problem will have been tackled many, many times before.
13:01	ChongLi	perhaps, but then you're making a value judgment
13:02	ChongLi	which I guess is really at the core of what idiomatic means
13:02	ChongLi	it's a value judgment
13:02	alexnixon	yep
13:02	alexnixon	you might find kibit interesting
13:03	ChongLi	I think people ought to be aware of that
13:03	ChongLi	because sometimes I see people use the term as a kind of attack
13:03	ChongLi	when it really isn't fair to do so
13:03	ChongLi	I'm not accusing anyone here of that, I haven't seen it happen here
13:04	ChongLi	I still need to look into core.logic
13:04	alexnixon	attacking people is rarely helpful but non-idiomatic code is expensive and so it's right to discourage it, imo
13:05	TimMc	When code is more "idiomatic" (however you define it), the implication is that other developers will be able to glance at it and see what it is up to more easily.
13:05	ChongLi	yeah and that is good
13:05	TimMc	(well, one implication, anyway)
13:06	ChongLi	but I think it's also important to help beginners realize what idiomatic means
13:06	ChongLi	because it can be a cultural minefield
13:06	alexnixon	in terms of non-native speakers, you mean?
13:06	ChongLi	yeah
13:07	ChongLi	similar to cultural faux pas
13:09	ChongLi	so kibit is a lint-like?
13:09	ChongLi	is that a term?
13:09	TimMc	sure
13:09	ChongLi	I had some trouble using hlint with haskell
13:10	ChongLi	it occasionally suggested program transformations which were ill-typed
13:12	alexnixon	I believe kibit can do the same (I saw a mailing list post about it not being aware of reducers)
13:13	ChongLi	so it's definitely a tool intended for experienced programmers
13:13	alexnixon	no I don't think so
13:13	abp	hell-o
13:13	alexnixon	aiui it's aimed at beginners, to help make them aware of existing functions they might not be aware of
13:13	ChongLi	then are beginners going to be able to cope with transformations which damage their program?
13:14	alexnixon	that's a bug :-)
13:14	ChongLi	ahhh, ok
13:14	alexnixon	most of its transformations are very, very simple
13:14	ChongLi	I thought it was merely a limitation
13:15	ChongLi	I don't know how core.logic works, but in SICP they talk about the closed world assumption
13:15	ChongLi	and how that leads down many a dark path to paradoxes
13:17	alexnixon	I haven't looked at it in detail, but my impression is that kibit suggest transforms based on simple pattern matching of s-expressions
13:17	Anderkent	So clojure compiler seems a bit crap at assigning line numbers to bytecode, is that worked on or a limitation of jvm?
13:20	dnolen	Anderkent: compiler usually gives pretty accurate line numbers - malformed sexprs and macros are the cases where you may not get a line number.
13:22	Anderkent	dnolen: not in my experience, see https://gist.github.com/4119799. Everything from (zero?...) to the 1 refers to the first instruction, surely it can be more specific
13:27	dnolen	Anderkent: it could be improved I'm sure - but it's not been a real pain point for me at least. And I hear many more complaints here about no line no information for the obvious reasons.
13:28	Anderkent	well, it's a pain when trying to get code coverage working ;S
13:33	Luyt	re-reading http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html and it's always a good read. Is Clojure the modern blub?
13:33	TimMc	Luyt: No, Java is.
13:33	technomancy	Luyt: silly question; the whole point of blub is you can't tell
13:33	TimMc	(In my own experience with multiple languages.)
13:33	Luyt	TimMc: You might be right.
13:34	TimMc	technomancy: Fair point, but it's what I would regard as "the most common Blub".
13:34	Luyt	I made a mistake in my answer ;-) of course Clojure is the highest nirvana of Lisp you can attain ;-)
13:34	dnolen	Luyt: doubtful
13:34	langmartin	lisp might be a blub re types
13:34	TimMc	Clojure is a compromise.
13:34	langmartin	sometimes
13:35	dnolen	TimMc: as far as PLs go that is pretty much a tautology
13:35	technomancy	"everyone smarter than me is a nerd; everyone dumber than me is an idiot" http://wondermark.com/333/
13:36	Luyt	I'd like to befriend people of equal smartness as me.
13:37	uvtc	George Carlin on that one: http://i.qkme.me/3qzpsm.jpg
13:38	devn	Does anyone know of the paper that's kind of in the Clojure canon, the one about reasoning about programs, the implications largely being about testing software?
13:40	devn	Nevermind, I was thinking of Out of the Tar Pit -- was trying to place the phrase: "Informal reasoning"
13:49	abp	amalloy: technomancy When I start using emacs, is it advisable to use emacs-starter-kit and emacs-live together to get started writing clojure?
13:49	technomancy	abp: I recommend writing your own dotfiles
13:50	technomancy	but read over other peoples to find good tricks
13:50	technomancy	and check out what packages other people use
13:50	ivan	I like all of the packages emacs-starter-kit uses by default
13:50	lynaghk	dnolen: here's the gist about the unifier constraints you requested: https://gist.github.com/4116442
13:50	technomancy	the emacs defaults are often comically bad, so you need at least a page or two of elisp to work around that, then the rest can come in via packages
13:51	Iceland_jack	Ain't that the truth
13:52	lynaghk	dnolen: not sure if it's what you had in mind or how complex it might be to implement.
13:54	abp	technomancy: Sounds like pretty much to do when searching for a new editor to write my libs in.
13:54	technomancy	abp: yeah, definitely. there are easier editors.
13:56	llasram	Have the defaults gotten better with Emacs 24?
13:56	llasram	I definitely remember some stuff being kind of bizarre, but I just re-wrote my emacs config from scratch, and there's de facto standard stuff which isn't on by default (like ido), but the only insane default I ran into is the C-j vs C-m behavior.
13:57	technomancy	llasram: not really IMO
13:57	technomancy	you still have the toolbar and menubar on by default, uniquify off, and a bunch of other nonsense
13:57	llasram	Ohhhhhh, right
13:57	llasram	Yeah, ok. That's fair, esp for uniquify. Toolbar and menubar though -- maybe most people want those?
13:58	technomancy	no
13:58	technomancy	well, maybe they do, but they're wrong
13:58	llasram	Well I agree with you :-)
13:58	technomancy	the toolbar actually reflects a somewhat insulting attitude of emacs-devel towards newbies
13:58	llasram	But it kind of makes sense. If you know emacs, you turn them off. If you're a new user, the defaults have them on to make things discoverable in a more typical way
13:59	dnolen	lynaghk: thanks, I'd like to see some more examples - in particular examples of :where of all the cases you had in your other gist.
14:00	lynaghk	dnolen: This syntax would complement the current metadata-based approach. The example in that gist is the only one where I need to put a constraint between two lvars that exist within the unification
14:00	tgoossens	sublime pleases me as well. But there might be better editors for clojrue
14:01	lynaghk	dnolen: also, since the lvars would need to be projected before the predicate could be applied, this approach could also be used to implement "or".
14:02	dnolen	lynaghk: hmm, I'd like to see how it could work w/o metadata, everything in the 3rd argument to the unifier.
14:02	TimMc	technomancy: As a noob, I loved the toolbar. It was very important in my transition to learning the keyboard shortcuts.
14:02	lynaghk	dnolen: ah, I see. yeah, I can throw that together; give me 5 min.
14:02	dnolen	lynaghk: projection is not required w/ constraints.
14:03	dnolen	lynaghk: but that's neither here nor there really for consumers of the simple unifier
14:03	lynaghk	dnolen: how so? Don't the lvars need to come down from logic-world before they can be given to regular ol' predicate functions?
14:04	dnolen	lynaghk: constraints run on events - they don't run until their vars satisfy some condition - domain change, grounding etc
14:04	dnolen	lynaghk: projection requires you to consider order - constraints free you from that.
14:05	lynaghk	dnolen: ah, okay. I should read up about the implementation
14:05	dnolen	lynaghk: but like i said, implementation detail as far as what you want :)
14:06	lynaghk	dnolen: as an aside: unifier order shouldn't matter, correct?
14:07	lynaghk	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6878
14:07	dnolen	lynaghk: as in which argument the spec is?
14:07	lynaghk	dnolen: I was just playing around and ran into this non-intuitive situation
14:07	lynaghk	at least, it was a surprise to me.
14:08	dnolen	lynaghk: that past doesn't make sense unifier only takes 2 arguments right now.
14:08	dnolen	s/past/paste
14:09	dnolen	lynaghk: oh wait ... right
14:09	dnolen	I added that
14:09	lynaghk	= )
14:10	dnolen	lynaghk: can you add the output to that so I can see what's going on? :)
14:10	lynaghk	dnolen: as I'm writing up these new examples, do you have thoughts on annon functions?
14:10	dnolen	lynaghk: what about them?
14:11	lynaghk	dnolen: if you think it'd be a good or bad idea to support them in the where clause
14:11	lynaghk	both in terms of the implementation complexity and the difficulty of reading unifier calls.
14:11	dnolen	lynaghk: like anon predicate you mean?
14:12	dnolen	lynaghk: add an example of what you're thinking
14:12	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah. To support "or", for instance, my instinct would be to write [#(or (numeric? %) (nil? %)) ?the-var]
14:13	lynaghk	dnolen: but then these unifier constraint statements might turn into a big mess---also, not sure if there are pitfalls running prep across annon-fn forms.
14:14	lynaghk	dnolen: updated paste: https://www.refheap.com/paste/6879. output is [{:x 2} nil]
14:15	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah that could work. I'm not sure the constraint argument to the unifier should prep the constraints. that is it should just be real data and if you want to specify an anon fn then you need to quote your vars.
14:15	dnolen	lynaghk: also constraint arg should maybe be a map
14:16	dnolen	{'?x ... '?y ... #(or (numeric? %) (nil? %)) '#{?x ?y}}
14:16	dnolen	we can treat symbols specially from fn keys.
14:16	lynaghk	dnolen: not sure I see. What's that a map of?
14:16	dnolen	vars -> constraints
14:16	dnolen	or group constraints -> var set
14:17	lynaghk	dnolen: for that latter case, shouldn't the value be a vector since the args should be provided in order?
14:17	dnolen	lynaghk: what does order indicate here?
14:18	lynaghk	dnolen: I need to implement constraints with a fn of specific lvars. E.g. (data-numeric data dimension)
14:18	lynaghk	so the map would need to be {data-numeric [?data ?dimension]}
14:19	dnolen	lynaghk: I don't see why order matters. can you explain?
14:20	dnolen	lynaghk: the problem that gist is that you reify vars too early - ?x gets bound to _.0, you need to wrap in in (binding [reify-vars false] ...)
14:20	lynaghk	dnolen: data-numeric is a plain function with the signature [data dimension]. It looks into the dimension of the data to see if the value is numeric.
14:20	dnolen	lynaghk: er the refheap I mean.
14:21	lynaghk	dnolen: ah. is that an implementation detail? It's a surprise to me. I've been thinking of unifier as just taking the args, prepping, and chaining them all together in the same way as == within a run.
14:21	lynaghk	(unifier a b c) <=> (run* [q] (== q a) (== q b) (== q c))
14:22	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah I guess it's pretty annoying ... I could change it set that automatically if we have more than 2 args.
14:22	lynaghk	dnolen: well, that's a side issue. We might decide to change the signature of unifier so it takes only two args with an optional third-arg map = )
14:22	jcromartie	do all futures evaluate on the same thread?
14:23	lynaghk	dnolen: does this data-numeric question make sense? The predicate does not treat its arguments symetrically.
14:23	dnolen	lynaghk: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/LOGIC-71
14:23	llasram	jcromartie: No -- uses the same thread-pool as agent send-off
14:23	TimMc	jcromartie: I think they share a thread ppol.
14:24	dnolen	lynaghk: hmm not really. ?data either does or doesn't exist, if it does then all you care about is whether ?dimension is numeric right?
14:24	jcromartie	I was Doing It Wrong™
14:24	lynaghk	dnolen: nope. ?data is a seq of maps, and ?dimension is a key of those maps. The data-numeric predicate needs to look to see if ?dimension's values are numeric
14:25	dnolen	lynaghk: it needs to check all of them is that what you're saying?
14:25	lynaghk	dnolen: line 10 https://gist.github.com/4116442
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: the point is that we should support arbitrary predicates of multiple lvars.
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: via user-provided functions, which don't necessarily treat their arguments symmetrically.
14:27	dnolen	lynaghk: right I'm starting to get it ...
14:28	dnolen	lynaghk: it can be done, it'll have to be a different constraint from the cvar stuff that I've shown.
14:29	dnolen	lynaghk: it's a constraint that runs once both of it arguments have become ground
14:29	lynaghk	dnolen: aren't the constraints on a single argument only---the lvar?
14:30	dnolen	lynaghk: the one's we've talked about yes - but not in general. Otherwise how could we solve sudoku? :)
14:30	lynaghk	dnolen: hehe.
14:31	lynaghk	dnolen: syntax wise I think the map is a good idea. A map of functions to a vector of their arguments?
14:31	mefisto	anyone done much with clj-record? is it fun to use
14:31	dnolen	lynaghk: yep
14:32	lynaghk	dnolen: I wonder why datomic's syntax is with the vectors, then.
14:32	lynaghk	dnolen: seems like we're doing the exact same thing.
14:34	dnolen	lynaghk: again I think we should support both symbol keys and fn keys.
14:34	lynaghk	dnolen: that's fine with me. I'll update the gist with more examples.
14:34	dnolen	lynaghk: I think in the case of datomic the tuple form simplifies the implementation quite a bit. I don't think it matters much here.
14:35	dnolen	lynaghk: excellent
14:44	lynaghk	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/4116442/
14:45	lynaghk	dnolen: I just added what we just talked about.
14:48	dnolen	lynaghk: cool, for case where users want to provide fns in the map, the whole map should not be quoted.
14:49	lynaghk	dnolen: I just edited the gist = )
14:49	lynaghk	dnolen: was thinking the same thing. this lvar quoting stuff is a bit tricky.
14:50	lynaghk	dnolen: I am liking this syntax much better than the metadata, now that I think about it. Much cleaner when the unification contains the same lvar in multiple places.
14:50	dnolen	lynaghk: yep, I suspected that would be the case so I wanted to explore. The metadata thing may very well go the way of the dodo.
14:55	lynaghk	dnolen: unless I am missing something, though, the unifier cannot be used to do a fully general rewrite (e.g., removing keys)
14:55	dnolen	lynaghk: is there a case where you need that?
14:57	lynaghk	dnolen: yes, because I'm trying to do full rewrites. See line 16 here: https://gist.github.com/4004131
14:58	lynaghk	dnolen: the match is saying "you asked for a boxplot with x and y aesthetics, but there is no y aesthetic for a boxplot. You really wanted that to be a value in the statistic record"
14:58	dnolen	lynaghk: I don't see any rewriting in 16
14:59	lynaghk	dnolen: refresh please. The first item in that vector (line 15) is the match, the second bit is the rewrite
14:59	lynaghk	dnolen: the :y !_ means "take this out of the map"
15:00	lynaghk	dnolen: the second item in the vector is the rewrite, which I was deep-merging into the user-provided spec.
15:01	lynaghk	dnolen: here's a simpler example of what I'd want: (unifier {:a 1 :b 1} '{:a ?a :c ?a}) ;; => {:a 1 :b 1 :c 1}
15:03	dnolen	lynaghk: ok, yeah - we'd need something like rewriter which respects the same rules as the simple unifier that we've talked about.
15:03	dnolen	(rewriter [match => rewrite :where ...] ...)
15:04	lynaghk	dnolen: okay, yeah. I can open source that based on what I have thus far
15:04	lynaghk	dnolen: basically, unify spec with the match, then the rewrite has the same lvars as spec and gets deep-merged into the spec.
15:04	dnolen	it's ok, it's pretty trivial to embed that into a simple run.
15:05	dnolen	(run* [q] (== user-data spec) (== q rewrite))
15:05	dnolen	and constraints are implicitly added on the vars via :where
15:06	lynaghk	dnolen: that won't cut it in my case because of the partial map stuff---I want to refer to only the things I care about in the match, not every possible key
15:06	lynaghk	dnolen: that's why I have to deep merge the rewrite onto the spec; it overwrites certain values but carries the rest along
15:07	dnolen	lynaghk: I guess I don't see how that isn't handle by defaults and partial map in what I just said above?
15:07	dnolen	handled
15:08	lynaghk	dnolen: it's an open system, so the user might add new keys that aren't in the record definitions
15:10	dnolen	lynaghk: I see, so this sounds like something you can handle on your end then? the unifier isn't really about rewriting - we just need to make sure you can get the data you need.
15:11	lynaghk	dnolen: yes, correct.
15:11	dnolen	lynaghk: sounds good
15:11	lynaghk	dnolen: I think people would be interested in the rewrite case so I'll try to factor it out of the system or at least put together a pretty comprehensive gist about it.
15:12	dnolen	lynaghk: yes I think a rewriter based on core.logic would be a pretty sweet lib.
15:12	lynaghk	dnolen: thanks again for all of your help on this. I'd be more than happy to take a stab at some implementation stuff if you think I'd speed you up rather than slow you down.
15:13	dnolen	lynaghk: if you've got the bandwidth sweet. First thing would be a unifier that takes n args but looks for :where constraint-map at the end. The patch doesn't need to actually process it, just change the unifier so that this form is valid.
15:14	dnolen	lynaghk: if I get that I can do the constraint processing and the var w/ default value unification pretty easily.
15:14	lynaghk	dnolen: so you want to keep the multi-arity unifier?
15:14	dnolen	lynaghk: I dont' see why we shouldn't.
15:15	lynaghk	dnolen: fair enough. Yeah, I'll get that pushed up later today. Do you want me to handle the walk fix too?
15:15	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah that would be cool.
15:16	lynaghk	dnolen: okay, I can get both of those done today. I've got to run for now, though. catch you later.
15:17	dnolen	lynaghk: later
15:45	simonadameit	hi
15:47	simonadameit	The interfaces that are defined in clojure.lang like ISeq, etc. - is there some documentation / overview and explanation for them?
15:48	simonadameit	This seems to be important for implementing data structures that work the same as all the clojure data structures
15:49	dnolen	simonadameit: nothing that I know of beyond the source - maybe some of the books cover them.
15:59	mpenet	simonadameit: there is a handy fn from cgrand that helps to get and overview: https://gist.github.com/2053633
16:01	mpenet	simonadameit: example of output https://gist.github.com/4121044
16:02	simonadameit	thanks, thats cool
16:03	simonadameit	Is there some library in clojure for defining binary formats and manipulating binary data (e.g. on a Java ByteBuffer) ?
16:04	mpenet	simonadameit: gloss
16:08	simonadameit	mpenet: looks great, i did not find this library, though i was looking
16:10	simonadameit	this is more of a general question: does it make sense to copy data that resides in a memory mapped file into clojure data structures (like gloss does) or should i write accessors to directly look at the data in the buffer in a structured way?
16:14	simonadameit	i.e. write deftypes that maybe implement some clojure collections interfaces and call .getInt (etc.) at just the right time?
16:14	simonadameit	any idea whats the better approach?
16:22	S11001001	simonadameit: for most programs, the former.
16:22	ifesdjeen	hi guys, does anyone know why alter-var-root doesn't work within (defmacro)?.. it simply doesn't change dynamic variable at all...
16:22	ifesdjeen	at least when execution is deferred (quote)
16:22	S11001001	simonadameit: implementing crap in deftype is for optimization, and you know what they say about doing that too soon....
16:22	TimMc	Or even at all. :-P
16:23	TimMc	ifesdjeen: Do you have a public example somewhere that doesn't work as you expect?
16:23	ifesdjeen	TimMc: sec, posting gist
16:24	TimMc	My immediate suspicion is that you're confusing runtime and compile-time in some way...
16:26	simonadameit	S11001001: ok, for what kind of programs would the latter make sense?
16:27	technomancy	simonadameit: implementing Clojure
16:28	dnolen_	simonadameit: any code where performance really matters including Clojure
16:28	dnolen_	simonadameit: also it's the only way to create your types that can interoperate w/ Clojure transparently
16:28	dnolen_	so it's not just about performance.
16:28	dnolen_	your own types.
16:28	TimMc	Write that part in Erlang or OCaml or something.
16:28	ifesdjeen	TimMc: https://gist.github.com/c10c4cf6f9e7f9db05ac
16:29	ifesdjeen	TimMc: it seems that I do, i did run into one of the issues lie that, but i've inserted a couple of printlns to verify flows, and everything kind of made sense
16:31	ifesdjeen	it works perfectly fine until I insert macro into macro... then it just uses binding value, ignoring alter-var-root
16:31	ifesdjeen	probably it's an expected behavior
16:31	ifesdjeen	i'm just wondering what would be a better way to do the same thing
16:32	TimMc	ifesdjeen: You're altering the var root, but your printlns are getting the dynamically bound value.
16:35	jcromartie	why does this fail with "Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$reduce": https://gist.github.com/ba9030abda9c8a3ed0bc
16:35	jcromartie	I don't see reduce being called with 1 arg
16:36	jcromartie	never mind
16:36	jcromartie	stack trace interpretation FAIL
16:36	TimMc	It was actually your fn literal?
16:36	ifesdjeen	TimMc: i understand that. So, basically, there's no way do change dynamic var while having a binding?..
16:37	TimMc	I don't happen to know of a way to change the current dynamic scope, no.
16:38	ifesdjeen	got disconnected
16:38	ifesdjeen	thank you TimMc
16:39	jsabeaudry	(contains? [1 2 3] 1) -> true, (contains ["a" "b" "c"] "a") -> false, huh?
16:39	TimMc	~contains?
16:39	clojurebot	contains is gotcha
16:39	technomancy	clojurebot: contains?
16:39	clojurebot	contains? checks whether an indexed collection (set, map, vector) contains an object as a key. to search a sequence for a particular object, use the `some` function, which accepts a predicate. if you want to only match a certain object, you can use a set as the predicate: for example, (some #{5} (range)) finds the first occurrence of 5
16:39	technomancy	oh snap
16:41	TimMc	clojurebot: contains? is a sneaky way of getting people to learn about computational complexity
16:41	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
16:41	Bronsa	ifesdjeen: what about set!?
16:42	TimMc	Oh hah, good call.
16:42	_ulises	this is a gloss question: when I define a codec using header, does the header frame get consumed? preliminary tests suggest yes but the docs suggest otherwise?
16:42	llasram	ifesdjeen, Bronsa: what about bound-fn ?
16:43	jsabeaudry	technomancy, thanks!
16:54	simonadameit	how do I access static nested classes from clojure?
16:55	TimMc	simonadameit: Inner classes use $ instead of .
16:55	TimMc	~inner classes
16:55	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:55	simonadameit	thanks, that works! :)
16:57	TimMc	clojurebot: inner classes are a Java fiction; for the Double "inner class" in Point2D, write Point2D$Double (not Point2D.Double).
16:57	clojurebot	java generics are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generics_in_Java
17:01	dnolen_	unnali: btw, pretty sure your issue got resolved - will see if we can push out a new CLJS release this Friday.
17:07	abuiles	I'm setting up nrepl in emacs, so far everything works well, with nrepl-jack-in I get the nrepl buffer, but when I tried to evaluate something with C-c-C-r, I get "inferior-lisp-proc: No Lisp subprocess; see variable `inferior-lisp-buffer'", am I missing something?
17:09	unnali	dnolen_: woah! amazing!
17:09	unnali	great to hear!
17:13	Frozenlock	I'm trying to set a field using (set! (. object field-name) value), but the expression (. object field-name) throws an exception "no matching field found". I know the field exists, I can see it in the Slime inspector. Is there another way to get to a field?
17:13	simonadameit	what is the preferred construct in clojure to manage side effects?
17:14	nDuff	simonadameit: that very much depends on the details.
17:14	ChongLi	simonadameit: mostly convention, from what I know
17:14	ChongLi	convention and the concurrency primitives
17:15	nDuff	simonadameit: could you be more specific?
17:15	simonadameit	i want something like agent (multiple readers, single writer) but agent may not have side effects, and i want the data to reside in a file
17:15	nDuff	simonadameit: I/O (ie. writing to a file) _is_ a side effect.
17:15	simonadameit	exactly
17:16	simonadameit	thats why i cannot use an agent
17:16	nDuff	Waitamoment.
17:16	nDuff	Huh?
17:16	simonadameit	and ask for the clojure way to manage side effects
17:16	nDuff	Agents are certainly allowed to do IO.
17:16	ChongLi	how do you plan to write to a file without side effects?
17:17	nDuff	...for that matter, the behavior of agent send operations within transactions is one of the useful ways to coordinate between side-effect-free dosync blocks and side-effect-ful IO
17:17	simonadameit	ChongLi: i want the side effects
17:17	ChongLi	yeah that's a very good point
17:17	simonadameit	i just dont want them to happen twice because stm decides to do so.
17:18	ivan	abuiles: try closing and reopening your .clj file
17:18	ChongLi	stm works with agents
17:18	nDuff	simonadameit: What were you reading that implied that agents shouldn't do things with side effects?
17:18	ChongLi	so that agent actions are not repeated if the transaction restarts
17:18	nDuff	simonadameit: STM doesn't cause agents to retry.
17:18	ivan	abuiles: or try calling nrepl-eval-buffer directly, maybe you have key binding problem
17:18	nDuff	simonadameit: maybe you're thinking of refs.
17:19	ChongLi	so yeah, you can use an agent to implement a transaction log
17:19	ChongLi	or whatever it is you want to do
17:19	simonadameit	"Agents are integrated with the STM - any dispatches made in a transaction are held until it commits, and are discarded if it is retried or aborted."
17:19	nDuff	simonadameit: things added to an agent's queue from within a transaction are never run until after that transaction has successfully completed.
17:20	simonadameit	so this means the agent dispatch is not retried?
17:20	ChongLi	there you go
17:20	simonadameit	thats good
17:20	ChongLi	yeah
17:20	abuiles	ivan: yeah, seems like a key-binding problem :( thanks
17:20	simonadameit	ChongLi, nDuff: thanks, seems I can use agents after all
17:21	ChongLi	simonadameit: it does require discipline, however
17:21	ChongLi	if you try to do a side effect directly within a transaction, you'll throw an exception (I beleive)
17:21	ChongLi	believe
17:22	TimMc	ChongLi: Not in general.
17:22	xclite	I thought you could do one, it just might happen... a lot
17:22	simonadameit	ChongLi: I want to do it in a function that i send to an agent
17:22	simonadameit	that should work, shouldn't it?
17:22	xclite	simonadameit, that's how I do it. I have an agent to whom I send logging calls.
17:22	ChongLi	TimMc: isn't there something you can wrap around your side-effecting function so that it throws an exception if you call it in a transaction?
17:23	nDuff	io!
17:23	TimMc	Sure, but it's not automatic.
17:23	ChongLi	it's a good convention to have then
17:23	ChongLi	if it's really important to you
17:23	TimMc	I'm not sure when I'd really use it...
17:24	TimMc	It seems like something that's only useful if you don't know all the code paths through your application.
17:24	ChongLi	yeah, when building a really large and complex system
17:24	ChongLi	with a large team
17:26	TimMc	I still don't see it.
17:27	ChongLi	I wonder if you could devise some static analysis that'd go through the entire library (including any java libs you use) and flag everything with the io! macro
17:28	ChongLi	seems like it'd be feasible
17:28	TimMc	heh
17:29	TimMc	The channel has visited this topic in the past...
17:29	ChongLi	haha
17:29	ChongLi	I guess it's silly for me to bring it up again then
17:29	TimMc	no no, I'm just hunting through the logs
17:32	TimMc	Incidentally, ref operations themselves are side-effecting -- but they're coordination with the dosync.
17:39	TimMc	Bah, I can't find it.
17:40	TimMc	Anyway, the short version is that static analysis can't tell when a side-effect is "safe" or not.
17:43	ChongLi	TimMc: ahhh
17:43	ChongLi	well that makes sense
17:43	ChongLi	I guess a lot of java calls would be false positives
17:46	TimMc	It also can't predict all your code paths, so you'd have to have both liberal and conservative versions to handle some higher-order usage of functions.
17:47	ChongLi	it'd have some granularity issues I guess
17:47	TimMc	(I'm not particularly well-versed in this topic, so I'm being a bit hand-wavey.)
17:47	ChongLi	then again, even haskell's IO monad has these issues
17:47	ChongLi	hence the need for unsafePerformIO
17:50	wingy	500 members
17:51	Frozenlock	So, any java knowledgeable person that can tell me how misguided I am in my attempt to modify a java field? :)
17:52	amalloy	java loves it when you modify fields, man
17:52	brehaut	the unsafe part of unsafePerformIO is not the IO, its calling it in pure code; theres no garuntees on how many times it will evaluate (it could be zero or more); you are banking on the strictness analyiser doing what you think
17:52	kencausey	I've updated to ritz-nrepl 0.6.0 both on the clj and elisp side and now when I do alt-x nrepl and try to use the connection I get 'No Lisp subprocess; see variable `inferior-lisp-buffer`'
17:53	kencausey	I'm running a git checkout of Emacs 24.3.50.1 built locally yesterday
17:53	simonadameit	do agents behave like a volatile in regard to memory synchronization? I.e. when a thread reads a value from an agent, will it also see everything that the agent wrote into unsynchronized memory regions during its change function?
17:54	Frozenlock	amalloy: was that sarcasm?
17:54	tbaldridge_	anyone know how to negate something in core.logic? Instead of (nilo q) I want (not-nilo q)
17:54	amalloy	nope, java is field-modification-oriented programming :P
17:55	brainproxy	Frozenlock: you've never had your jvm kiss you on the cheek when you get busy modifying fields?
17:55	kencausey	Perhaps symptomatic, ido can't find any command including ritz other then nrepl-ritz-jack-in, it doesnt s3ee nrepl-ritz-break-on-exception by the way, and it doesn't work if I type it out.
17:55	Frozenlock	Eh, the only contact I had with the JVM is through Clojure.
17:55	kencausey	tbaldridge_: not
17:56	actsasgeek	is anyone else having a problem with lein not being able to find noir-lein-template:pom:1.3.0?
17:56	hugod	kencausey: you could try M-: (require 'nrepl-ritz)
17:56	nDuff	Frozenlock: Have a standalone reproducer handy? The Java standard library isn't exactly full of public fields, so I don't have anything off-the-top-of-my-head handy to test.
17:56	tbaldridge_	ah...just found it, it seems != does what I need, thanks
17:58	kencausey	hugod: That changes the second issue, but does nothing regarding making c-x c-e work.
17:59	kencausey	tbaldridge: I ignored the fact that you said core.logic, best you just ignore me, sorry.
17:59	hugod	kencausey: what buffers do you have with names starting with "*nrepl"?
17:59	tbaldridge	kencausey: np
18:00	kencausey	hugod: nrepl nrepl-connection
18:05	Frozenlock	nDuff: Other than the library I'm currently bashing my head on, I don't have anything that comes to mind. My problem is with this https://github.com/Frozenlock/Bacnet-scan-utils . If you load bacnet.clj, then create a new device (def ld (new-local-device)), you can inspect ld and see there's a configuration field. However I can't get access to it using (. ld configuration). Yes, that's enough to confuse me.
18:07	dnolen_	tbaldridge: there is no general form of negation in core.logic (similar to Prolog)- disequality may cover your use case as you've discovered
18:10	nDuff	Frozenlock: it's a bean. (.getConfiguration (bacnet-scan-utils.bacnet/new-local-device))
18:11	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...which us the usual way of doing things in Java -- public fields are very, very rare.
18:11	Frozenlock	So to set it, I should do something like (set! (.getConfiguration
18:11	Frozenlock	(bacnet-scan-utils.bacnet/new-local-device)) some-configuration-object) ?
18:11	nDuff	Frozenlock: no, it has a setter.
18:12	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...or, it should, if it's being a well-behaved bean.
18:12	Frozenlock	It has? I didn't seen it in the docs...
18:12	nDuff	Where are these docs?
18:12	Frozenlock	didn't see*
18:12	nDuff	Anyhow -- no sane Java API will expect 3rd-party users to directly interact with its fields.
18:12	nDuff	...it's just not a thing that's done.
18:13	hugod	kencausey: perhaps try it in a fresh emacs instance?
18:13	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...so, they may have a different way to do that, ie. expecting you to mutate the configuration rather than replacing it, or expecting it to be provided at configuration time, or whatever.
18:14	nDuff	Frozenlock: If you can provide a pointer to the javadocs, I may be able to be more helpful.
18:14	Frozenlock	Here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40737386/bacnet4J-doc/index.html
18:14	Frozenlock	Aaand there's frame... damnit.
18:15	Frozenlock	http://dl.dropbox.com/u/40737386/bacnet4J-doc/com/serotonin/bacnet4j/LocalDevice.html
18:15	nDuff	Frozenlock: Notably, that documentation doesn't say anything about there being a public field.
18:15	Frozenlock	Ok, so if a field isn't public, I can't touch it?
18:16	nDuff	Frozenlock: Exactly.
18:16	Frozenlock	-_-
18:16	nDuff	...well, not without doing a bunch of magic with reflection, and if you need to ask, the answer is "no". :)
18:16	tgoossens	(maybe by using reflection you can :p )
18:16	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...so -- if there aren't other docs or examples showing configuration, ask the developers behind the library.
18:16	Frozenlock	Yeah, I'll stick with no. I ain't wantin any java black magic
18:17	nDuff	Frozenlock: ...by the way, the configuration object it gives you _does_ have methods for updating properties.
18:17	kencausey	hugod: I've restarted emacs multiple times, I've been dealing with this for a day or more.
18:17	Frozenlock	Yes, but one at the time. I wanted to grab a config using getConfiguration and stick it in another device.
18:18	Frozenlock	I suppose I'll have to make an helperfn for that.
18:18	Frozenlock	nDuff: Thank you very much for your help!
18:21	hugod	kencausey: M-x nrepl to a repl started with `lein repl :headless` work?
18:22	kencausey	hugod: OK, a moment...
18:25	tgoossens	On a gameboard. I have a map of position->list of pieces on that place
18:25	kencausey	hugod: I get the same error
18:26	tgoossens	i am struggling with making pieces "unique"
18:26	tgoossens	there are several paths i'm following:
18:27	tgoossens	* it doesn't matter. I don't need to uniquely identify a piece. because if it has the same internal values with a piece on position then it is that piece
18:27	tgoossens	* use identity: references
18:27	tgoossens	* giving an "id" to a piece
18:27	tgoossens	not sure what I should go for
18:28	hugod	kencausey: that suggests a general nrepl issue then. I can't see a reference to inferior-lisp-buffer in nrepl.el. Is it possible you have some nrepl customisation hooks?
18:28	tgoossens	unique id seems ok but difficult to ensure the id is unique
18:29	tgoossens	identity makes it trivial. but then i'm working on a very "low" level in my program with identity already. Maybe i should avoid doing that
18:29	tgoossens	and using no uniqueness identifier how i'm going to say then: "move this robot forward"
18:31	technomancy	kencausey: if you're invoking inferior-lisp functions that means nrepl.el isn't enabled
18:32	Frozenlock	tgoossens: id with (gensym) perhaps?
18:32	kencausey	for what it's worth nrepl-eval-region works
18:32	kencausey	technomancy: Can you suggest how I might go about debugging/fixing that?
18:33	tgoossens	Frozenlock: what i mean is. How do you ensure that some external party provides a unique id?
18:33	flying_rhino	hello guys
18:33	kencausey	hugod: I may indeed have some customization, commenting it out now and retrying.
18:36	technomancy	kencausey: see if enabling the minor mode by hand helps I guess
18:36	kencausey	technomancy: for a .clj buffer?
18:36	flying_rhino	I have a question: Say I have several collections (lists vectors hashes whatever) of records. I want to have the structure similar to database. What you say is the best way for one item to link to the other? Maybe to make every collection hash map and use it's key as a primary key ?
18:37	kencausey	technomancy: I'm not clear on which buffer you mean or for that matter what mode
18:38	technomancy	kencausey: connecting to nrepl is supposed to enable nrepl-interaction-mode on all .clj buffers belonging to the project, but apparently that's not happening
18:39	kencausey	technomancy: Yep, that fixed it
18:39	technomancy	probably want to report that in github issues
18:41	kencausey	technomancy: Prior to hugod's suggestion regarding customization I had the stuff from kingtim/nrepl.el readme including the add-hook, which is commented out now. That said, it wasn't working when it wasn't commented out.
18:41	kencausey	technomancy: to kingtim/nrepl?
18:41	technomancy	yeah
18:42	kencausey	thanks, at least I can work around it for now
18:42	technomancy	np
18:42	kencausey	hugod: and to you as well
18:43	flying_rhino	I mean I know how to solve the problem but I wanted to run it through hive mind to see what everyone thinks.
18:47	kencausey	flying_rhino: the hive thinks and speaks slowly. That said I find that these sorts of questions are very hard to answer without a lot more context.
18:48	kencausey	Context that is often better formatted in an email or blog entry
18:52	kencausey	technomancy/hugod: Hmm, I uncommented out the nrepl add-hook and other customization stuff and then added the (add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode 'paredit-mode) line which either wasn't there before or I overlooked. And now it works.
18:52	flying_rhino	okay then here's very simple question (concernig performance) : If yiu have the key for something in hashmap, how slower is to access that value, compared when you have java reference to that value?
18:52	flying_rhino	*you
18:53	brehaut	O(approximately 1)
18:54	brehaut	but slower than a direct reference
18:59	kencausey	technomancy: I can confirm that without (add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode 'paredit-mode) in my init nrepl-interaction-mode isn't enabled.
19:00	kencausey	technomancy: Sound like something I should report to you? It doesn't read in the readme like it is mean to be a requirement.
19:00	flying_rhino	the thing is that my favorite way of developing thing is using something called Entity Systems. It is pattern where you separate data from code and put all your data in collections of structs. This roughly resembles how data is stored and connected in a database. You often use references as foreign keys to link data.
19:00	flying_rhino	*developing things
19:01	kencausey	flying_rhino: you aren't perhaps trying to optimize too early?
19:02	flying_rhino	kencausey: you caught me red handed there. But I do have one question which is not just about optimization.
19:04	flying_rhino	okay see you guys later
19:07	technomancy	kencausey: that's not going to make a difference
19:07	technomancy	I'm not the maintainer anyway though
19:12	kencausey	technomancy: I'm not sure what you mean. In any case I'm submitting a report now.
19:14	technomancy	I mean whether paredit is triggered when you enable nrepl-interaction-mode or not isn't going to change whether nrepl-interaction-mode is enabled at the right time
19:17	kencausey	technomancy: um, it does though
19:17	kencausey	technomancy: Simply commenting out one line and restarting or uncommenting and doing so makes it either work or not work
19:18	kencausey	https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues/168
19:25	seancorfield	fwiw kencausey I have (add-hook 'nrepl-mode-hook (lambda () (paredit-mode 1))) in my init.el to turn on paredit for nrepl
19:27	kencausey	seancorfield: OK, but just to be clear my problem is when I have nothing regarding linking nrepl and paredit explicitly stated in my init.
19:28	kencausey	It's fine when I use (add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode 'paredit-mode) as shown in the readme
19:30	kencausey	It does seem that in 0.1.5 there was nothing about (add-hook 'nrepl-interaction-mode 'paredit-mode) in the readme and probably explains why I did not have that in my init previously.
19:39	seancorfield	If I've had an nREPL session open in Emacs and I kill all the nrepl-related buffers and run nrepl-jack-in again, I often get "Not connected" when trying to load file / evaluate code... Known issue? Workaround?
19:42	kencausey	seancorfield: have you tried nrepl-quit?
19:42	seancorfield	no... will try that to reset the state...
19:43	kencausey	My guess is that it chokes on an existing buffer, an unlisted one
19:44	hiredman	seancorfield: nrepl.el has some kind of issue with evaluating code in a namespace if you haven't loaded it via load file, regardless if it is already loaded in the jvm
19:45	seancorfield	kencausey: nrepl-quit didn't help unfortunately
19:45	hiredman	loaded in
19:45	kencausey	seancorfield: boo
19:45	seancorfield	the buffer with the .clj file is marked nREPL after nrepl-jack-in, the nrepl buffer "works" but the .clj file cannot be loaded because of the "Not connected" error
19:46	seancorfield	normally when i run into this, i have to restart Emacs :(
19:48	xeqi	seancorfield: can you turn off nrepl-mode for that clj file
19:48	xeqi	and then see if turning it on again helps
19:48	seancorfield	ah, slime-mode had somehow turned on for that buffer! when i turned that off, it worked just fine
19:49	seancorfield	i guess since we just switched from swank to nrepl in production today i can uninstall slime now?
19:50	seancorfield	hmm, or will i still need slime for elisp stuff?
19:55	wingy	ive got a problem with form-encode
19:55	wingy	its creating a query string from a map .. but a map can't have identical keys and i need to create a to=foo&to=bar query string
19:55	wingy	so this wont work: (form-encode {:to "foo" :to "bar"})
19:56	wingy	any idea?
19:57	kencausey	wingy: I know nothing about it, but what happens with {:to ["foo" "bar"]}? Just a thought
19:57	wingy	kencausey: you are the man!
19:57	kencausey	pure luck (with a touch of experience)
19:58	wingy	:)
19:58	wingy	im using this one: (:require [ring.util.codec :refer [form-encode]])
19:58	wingy	a good method for restful apis
20:32	Frozenlock	Ugh... I've done a simple macro to easily convert symbols (and their values) to a map, but turns out I "can't eval locals"... https://www.refheap.com/paste/6883
20:33	Frozenlock	Any workaround?
20:33	derrida	Is penumbra still the best option as far as OpenGL bindings go?
20:34	Frozenlock	... for example this will fail--> (let [aa 12 bb 134] (mapify aa bb))
20:36	derrida	I'd like to use something idiomatic, I'm just a little apprehensive because of the "not actively developed" disclaimer though.
20:38	dnolen	derrida: probably still the best open source thing - I know Zach is open to someone taking over.
20:46	Frozenlock	Ah! My 'eval' was apparently unnecessary!
20:52	kencausey	Frozenlock: Do you really want a macro? That's evaluated at load/compile time, not runtime.
20:54	derrida	dnolen: I just read the thread about the future of penumbra, somewhat disheartening. I had thought the JVM would simplify distributing opengl projects making it a strong platform for game development. The comments by Zach seem to indicate he did not find this to be the case and that the JVM presents obstacles. I'm not familiar enough with the JVM to understand why this would be the case but it's worrisome to
20:54	derrida	me since one impetus for me to use clojure instead of common lisp was to mitigate distribution headaches.
20:55	derrida	sorry to throw that on you after you were kind enough to answer my initial question :D
20:56	dnolen	derrida: I don't think it's as bad as Zach lets on, games are made in Java, people figure it out. I just think he was interested in figuring out those problem himself.
20:56	dnolen	just don't think he is.
20:57	Frozenlock	kencausey: Well I don't really want a macro, but I don't really see how I could capture the symbol name otherwise...
20:58	derrida	dnolen: any idea what kind of problems he might be referring to?
20:58	dnolen	derrida: I have no idea - it never seemed like he ever worked on that problem much.
20:58	kencausey	Frozenlock: What is the benefit of your admittedly simple example above over [:aa 12 :bb 134]?
20:58	dnolen	derrida: he relied on something I built called native-deps
20:58	kencausey	or ['aa 12 'bb 134]
20:59	dnolen	derrida: it wasn't a real solution tho - I think you need to have a custom classloader thing in order forit to really be distributable - I believe that's what Java games do.
20:59	derrida	dnolen: what exactly was the "problem" he never worked on though?
20:59	derrida	hm
20:59	dnolen	derrida: load the right native libs at runtime instead of resolving it through dev tools.
20:59	derrida	ah
20:59	derrida	that doesn't sound like a terribly hard thing to resolve, just a bit tedious
20:59	dnolen	derrida: yep
21:00	dnolen	derrida: I looked into it, but I never got so far to car, I just wanted to see what 3D programming with Lisp was like. fun stuff.
21:00	dnolen	so far as to try.
21:01	derrida	It's wonderful, I've been doing it with CL for a while and it's not fun to go back! :D
21:01	Frozenlock	kencausey: I often find myself in functions with multiple local vars. Say v1 v2 v3. I want to send these to another function that's waiting for a map-argument, such as {:v1 _ :v2 _ :v3}. Well (mapify v1 v2 v3) ---> {:v1 _ :v2 _ :v3}
21:02	Frozenlock	It's really just to avoid doing {:v1 v1 :v2 v2 :v3 v3} by hand
21:02	dnolen	derrida: I hope somebody tries to build a decent game lib for Clojure, the Java support is there. Quil is is fun but you can't really do anything serious with it.
21:03	lynaghk`	ping: dnolen. What's the story with test-unifier-3 and dotted pairs in core.logic? Are there special semantics about '(?x . ?y)
21:03	dnolen	lynaghk: yes . means ?y should match the rest of the sequence on the other side.
21:03	lynaghk`	dnolen: my walk fix blows those tests, but I'm not sure what exactly those forms mean.
21:03	Frozenlock	kencausey: Am I crazy? :P
21:04	lynaghk`	dnolen: ahh. I'll try to work around it, thanks.
21:04	dnolen	lynaghk`: like a Scheme-y dotted pair - meant to be analogous to the pattern matching support in core.logic
21:06	kencausey	Frozenlock: No offense, but I suspect so.
21:07	kencausey	Frozenlock: How about a paste of a real usage example?
21:09	Frozenlock	Sure, perhaps you will be able to provide me with a better approach :)
21:09	Frozenlock	https://www.refheap.com/paste/6884
21:10	kencausey	I'll look, but don't get your hopes up ;)
21:10	Frozenlock	Oh wait-
21:11	Frozenlock	Does ':as arg' capture the initial argument value, or the final value?
21:12	Frozenlock	[&{:keys [some-ks] :or {...} :as args}]. Will args inherit the 'or' values?
21:13	kencausey	I suggest you test it
21:14	Frozenlock	in the middle of :)
21:15	Frozenlock	Ok, args will NOT get any 'or' values.
21:15	Frozenlock	&(let [{:keys [a b c] :or {c 0} :as args} {:a 1 :b 2}] args)
21:15	lazybot	⇒ {:a 1, :b 2}
21:15	Frozenlock	&(let [{:keys [a b c] :or {c 0} :as args} {:a 1 :b 2}] c)
21:15	lazybot	⇒ 0
21:15	dnolen	derrida: Zach also had some enthusiasm for WebGL based lib - that could pretty interesting because of node-webkit
21:18	derrida	dnolen: yeah, that would be very cool
21:19	dnolen	derrida: and more sensible distribution story to be honest.
21:19	derrida	if web distribution suits you, yes.
21:20	derrida	I don't think it's a silver bullet
21:20	dnolen	derrida: no node-webkit lets you ship your app as an executable - like LightTable
21:20	derrida	ah
21:21	derrida	dnolen: cool, i'll read up on that now.
21:21	derrida	I imagine there's a significant performance tax
21:22	dnolen	derrida: yeah for a game that's the major downside.
21:44	a\|i	how is the performance of clojure.xml comparing to other jvm xml parser?
21:46	amalloy	i suspect clojure.xml is awful, ajl. clojure.data.xml is probably competitive, since it mostly delegates
21:47	a\|i	amalloy: why is that 2 xml parsers come with clojure?
21:47	amalloy	clojure.data.xml is a separate library
21:48	a\|i	amalloy: any benchmarks to see how it performces better?
21:48	amalloy	shrug
21:49	ivan	aleph has a thing that chooses between .xml and .data.xml depending on whether you pass in a map or a vector :(
21:52	bbloom	dnolen: do we have anything for packaging/publishing clojurescript libraries?
21:52	amalloy	haha that's awful, ivan. does it use hiccup-style syntax for one of them, or what?
21:53	ivan	yes
21:53	amalloy	for data.xml, i hope? that code's my only contribution to data.xml
21:53	ivan	yes
21:53	amalloy	score
21:53	ivan	it was using prxml until I got rid of that
21:54	ivan	hopefully nobody noticed the breaking API change
21:54	amalloy	haha
21:55	amalloy	yeah, i forgot about prxml (thank god). that was actually the reason i added the stuff to data.xml, because prxml was the only contrib lib 4clojure was still using
21:55	tomoj	can you write a goal permuteo* like permuteo but for which (run 1 [y] (permuteo* l y)) draws a permutation at random?
21:57	tomoj	I guess if you just are going to run 1 you can just shuffle and pass that in
21:58	ivan	a\|i: clojure.xml doesn't escape things, you can probably inject arbitrary XML
21:59	a\|i	ivan: I just want to read remote xml, not write. the thing is the xml size could be big, and want to know how good data.xml handles memory.
21:59	amalloy	logic programming doesn't sound very well-suited to random choices, tomoj, since every function is reversible
22:02	dnolen	tomoj: might be possible with Will's new condp that he showed at the Conj, need to ponder that some more and I think he was going to revise.
22:03	dnolen	to be renamed condw if I implement it.
22:03	dnolen	bbloom: yes lein works great
22:04	bbloom	dnolen: yeah, i found :jar true for lein-cljsbuild .. is that what you meant?
22:05	dnolen	bbloom: I haven't produce a CLJS only jar myself, but putting CLJS into JARs "just works"
22:06	dnolen	bbloom: core.logic provides both CLJS and CLJ versions in the same JAR, one day one can hope it'll just be the same set of files in the JAR.
22:06	bbloom	dnolen: ok cool
22:06	bbloom	dnolen: so i've got a crazy idea i've been working on that you might like
22:07	dnolen	bbloom: heh, cool
22:07	bbloom	dnolen: i've implemented a very small postfix interpreter in the spirit of Factor language
22:07	bbloom	dnolen: my idea is to define a little post-fix DSL for mutating the dom
22:08	bbloom	so you could do something like ("body" select "div" tag "button" class "i am a button" text append)
22:08	bbloom	dnolen: and that would create a <div class="button">i am a button</div> and append it to the document body
22:08	bbloom	dnolen: the main idea is to treat the DOM like a printer and send programs to it a la postscript
22:09	dnolen	bbloom: haha, sounds fun, gotta run will check it out if you got a link at some point.
22:09	bbloom	dnolen: hopefully by end of week :-)
22:16	tomoj	this seems to work a bit https://www.refheap.com/paste/187886d48ea290d3650f8512c
22:17	tomoj	eh, that won't be very useful
22:21	amalloy	tomoj: it's great as long as you don't mind searching all 2^64 longs in order to run your program, i think :). unless i'm misunderstanding
22:25	wingy	where will the clojure conj 2012 videos be available?
22:25	wingy	http://clojure-conj.org
22:27	amalloy	wingy: i think they turned up on infoq last time, or something? usually the interesting ones get into my twitter feed somehow or other
22:28	wingy	amalloy: interesting presentations
22:28	ivan	wingy: if anything like last time, february-march 2013
22:28	wingy	:(
22:32	amalloy	three months seems pretty fast. i thought it went into summer last time
22:33	wingy	for apple it takes 2 days!
22:34	mabes	the conj videos typically show up on clojure's blip.tv channel
22:34	mabes	http://blip.tv/clojure
22:35	wingy	(y)
22:35	brehaut	wingy: oen of these is an open source community project conference, the other is one of the largest corps in the world…
22:37	amalloy	apple's are an advertisement, clojure's are informational/lecutre-style; they provide value rather than asking you for money
22:37	amalloy	lecutre! that sounds like a lovely french word
22:39	atom_	Speaking of lectures, although non-conj related, upenn has a 554 level course using clojure and the professors powerpoints, assignments and recommended reading are available for free.
22:39	wingy	atom_: where?
22:39	atom_	wingy: just a moment, I'll get the link for you.
22:40	atom_	wingy: http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~matuszek/cis554-2012/ there you go.
22:40	wingy	thx
22:40	atom_	wingy: are you in the process of learning clojure?
22:40	wingy	atom_: i have read some books
22:40	wingy	and now i am using it to build my app
22:41	atom_	excellent :) I'm learning currently. Using marick's book off of leanpub and finding it very helpful.
22:41	xeqi	the goggles, they do nothing
22:42	atom_	xeqi: those aren't goggles, just your hands formed in a circle
22:44	wingy	i wonder if i can read the books on my iPad on the run
22:44	wingy	the tricky thing is when you need to eval some code
22:44	amalloy	eval isn't so hard with websites like tryclojure. it's typing that's tough on an ipad, i imagine
22:46	brehaut	yeah, (, ) and - are not easily accessible
22:47	amalloy	and paredit
22:48	atom_	I hear the surface has a nice keyboard, though I can't speak for the rest of the device. >.>
22:48	amalloy	apple would probably not like me to call it iPaderit
22:48	wingy	atom_: i was thinking about buying one just because of the keyboard
22:49	devn	Did you guys know tpope is working on a set of Clojure plugins for vim that rule?
22:49	brehaut	apparently steve was mighty pissed at the safari team for calling JSC's JIT 'Squirrelfish Extreme'
22:49	wingy	seems very portable .. i hope apple would make a similar one for ipad
22:49	aperiodic	devn: i'd heard about an nrepl client
22:49	aperiodic	devn: what else?
22:49	devn	If you don't know tpope -- he's written an insane amount of vim plugins.
22:50	atom_	wingy: well if you decide to, let us know :)
22:50	brehaut	devn: 1 vim plugin? ;)
22:50	devn	aperiodic: well, I've worked with him a little bit, it was years ago now, but he tweeted something the other day which was along the lines of: "no janky repls"
22:50	devn	brehaut: lol, knowing tim it will be 10 of them
22:50	devn	and they will be done on monday
22:50	devn	he's insanely good
22:50	devn	the only reason I use vim for ruby and rails development is because of tim
22:50	atom_	I'm getting along well currently with intellij, although I'm also new.
22:51	brehaut	atom_: learning some other editor while learning clojure is not advised. keep on going with whatevers working for you
22:51	devn	aperiodic: if you PM me stuff you want in a clojure vim environment, I can pass it along
22:52	devn	communicating current annoyances and so on would be much appreciated, as tim is pretty new to clj
22:52	devn	but like most things he does, he's not going to get into it until he has his editor set up properly :)
22:53	atom_	brehaut: Thanks for the advice! I'm not a programmer by trade, more by request so I'm trying to use tools that make it easy to learn the language and teach me best practices like source control and proper unit testing. IntelliJ seems to accomplish all of those.
22:53	royaldark	hey all, I'm working to develop a Clojure intro course at U of Minnesota Morris, using a beginner-friendly environment. the one issue we haven't figured out is an easy way to reload students' source code without starting a new JVM every time - we currently use remove-ns, load-file and in-ns
22:53	brehaut	atom_: great. don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
22:53	royaldark	anyone have a better/more canonical idea?
22:53	devn	actually aperiodic & friends, ill try and get this to be more of an open discussion, but I should talk to him first, I just heard he was hacking on some vim clojure stuff and I'm really excited to see what he comes up with. his vim skills are beyond.
22:54	brehaut	royaldark: (require :reload-all 'students.namespace)
22:54	devn	so if you have suggestions for vim and clojure -- how it ought to work, ping me and ill pass it on
22:54	aperiodic	paredit.vim should let me strip quotation marks like any other set of paired delimiters
22:54	devn	please PM it to me so i dont lose it
22:55	devn	and keep the requests coming
22:55	devn	i have to run, but ill be back in a bit -- grabbing a cab
22:55	devn	cheers
22:56	royaldark	brehaut: didn't know about :reload-all, thanks
22:57	brehaut	royaldark: there is also :reload for just the named namespace
22:59	atom_	brehaut: indeed, thanks for the tip. I screwed up a _function_ (my terminology may be wrong) and couldn't get it back to normal. Just used reload-all and the _namespace_(?) and it reset it. Thanks :)
23:00	atom_	urg, sorry. I've been markdowning to take notes and it seems to have bled into my irc.
23:01	Bergle_1	doesnt everyone automatically interpret markdown anyway ? :)
23:02	amalloy	i chose to interpret it as "a blank spot in my vocabulary, speculatively filled in with the word namespace"
23:02	wingy	atom_: you should try Light Table .. its a good editor for clojure
23:03	wingy	although in alpha stage
23:03	amalloy	more like ultra-super-pre-alpha, i think?
23:03	atom_	wingy: I have tried it :) I find intellij to be easier to use for me at this time. Once I'm comfortable with clojure I will likely try to find a different tool.
23:04	wingy	amalloy: now you scared him away!
23:11	amalloy	i'm more interested in helping atom_ get used to clojure than in helping chris's sales numbers :P
23:11	amalloy	(and, i suspect, so is chris)
23:15	wingy	just that Light Table is helping newcomers tremendously with its instarepl
23:16	Bergle_1	yeah the instarepl is fun
23:16	Bergle_1	im a noob ;)
23:16	Bergle_1	at clojure anyway
23:16	wingy	you can connect it to your lein project and run your project code there .. it makes stuff easy to test
23:17	Bergle_1	i have yet to grok lein, beyond 'lein repl' :)
23:17	atom_	wingy: The instarepl is very nice. I do have LightTable, and I'm certain as I get more comfortable with clojure I'll be utilizing it more. I currently use intellij with it's built in repl and when I see an example I don't understand I put it in Light Table to see what is happening where. I'll most certainly be a customers of Chris' in the future
23:18	atom_	royaldark: I'm new to clojure and saw you were creating a course. What text or book are you using as an instruction for your class?
23:30	augustl	I'm currently doing this: [true, {:_id "123abc" :title "foo"}] and [false {:title "An error", ...}]] to separate success with data and failure with error messages in a "save" call. Anyone got some suggestions for different methods to separate success and failure?
23:30	atom_	Would anyone mind evaluating my explanation of my solution?
23:35	amalloy	~anyone
23:35	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
23:35	amalloy	augustl: that looks fine to me, though i'd probably make it a map like {:success true :data x} or {:type :success :data x}
23:38	augustl	amalloy: makes sense, thanks
23:38	augustl	named > nth :)
23:41	flying_rhino	small style question? Why everyone stack closed parenthesis instead of putting them in new line?
23:42	brehaut	flying_rhino: re:"It is pattern where you separate data from code and put all your data in collection" (http://clojure-log.n01se.net/#19:00a) that is all functional programming
23:42	amalloy	because you don't)
23:42	amalloy	want)
23:42	amalloy	your whole)
23:42	amalloy	file)
23:42	amalloy	wasted on )s)
23:42	brehaut	flying_rhino: everyone does that
23:42	brehaut	(inc amalloy)
23:42	lazybot	⇒ 35
23:42	brehaut	lols
23:42	flying_rhino	brehaut: but why? C and java are more readable largely because they don't
23:43	amalloy	they're more readable largley because you've spent more time reading them in the past, mate
23:43	brehaut	clojure isnt C or Java. its not remotely from the same family
23:44	augustl	flying_rhino: editors make it readable, such as currently matching paren highlighting and rainbow-mode in emacs
23:45	atom_	It seems like in OOP languages, you jump around the program a lot. The )'s help separate the different chunks. Functional seems to be more like reading a mathematical proof where you're not hopping around everywhere, just evaluating as you go through it.
23:45	amalloy	that's a neat perspective, atom_
23:45	flying_rhino	brehaut: not quite, both have tree like code. Or XML. Lisp can be thought as programmable XML and even there is formatting nicer.
23:45	brehaut	im pretty sure naggum has something to say to you
23:46	royaldark	atom_: Sorry, was afk. I'm working with Elena Machkasova, a professor at my school. She plans to write an introductory textbook on clojure
23:46	augustl	flying_rhino: seems to me that the answer to your question is that some people prefer stack closed parenthesis and you don't :)
23:46	augustl	prefer = finds more readable
23:46	atom_	royaldark: No worries, thanks for responding. I'll keep an eye out for it in the future then. :)
23:46	augustl	flying_rhino: and it's the other way around! XML is pointy lisp ;)
23:47	technomancy	spacing your parentheses out is bad because it makes it easier for you to keep track of them in your head
23:47	brehaut	http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/s-exp_vs_XML
23:47	alandipert	flying_rhino: why not just write your code in a way that you find readable? take this on when you deal with your first pull request :-)
23:47	brehaut	i dont necessarily agree with all that, but its funny as hell
23:47	brehaut	technomancy: how is your australian beer?
23:48	technomancy	brehaut: heh. don't tell anyone k?
23:48	brehaut	technomancy: i am thinking of drinking a summer ale in solidarity
23:48	brehaut	although it is actually summer here
23:48	amalloy	flying_rhino: if you're going to compare lisp to xml you should probably have read http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html first
23:48	augustl	btw, people who attended the conj should go to http://techmeshconf.com/, to get a reprise of the keynote
23:49	flying_rhino	amalloy: I read this
23:49	brehaut	amalloy: thats much more polite than naggum :)
23:49	flying_rhino	amalloy: that article is one of the reasons I am in this shit
23:50	flying_rhino	i mean what is more readable
23:50	amalloy	me too
23:50	flying_rhino	(defn fast-run []
23:50	flying_rhino	(let [x (future (long-calculation 11 13))
23:50	flying_rhino	y (future (long-calculation 13 17))
23:50	flying_rhino	z (future (long-calculation 17 19))]
23:50	flying_rhino	(* @x @y @z)))
23:50	amalloy	brehaut: i look forward to reading what naggum has to say, though
23:51	flying_rhino	or
23:51	amalloy	flying_rhino: the first version
23:51	amalloy	i don't even have to see the second
23:51	flying_rhino	(defn fast-run []
23:51	flying_rhino	(let [x (future (long-calculation 11 13))
23:51	flying_rhino	y (future (long-calculation 13 17))
23:51	flying_rhino	z (future (long-calculation 17 19))]
23:51	flying_rhino	(* @x @y @z)
23:51	flying_rhino	))
23:51	royaldark	atom_: our of curiosity, since you said you're new to clojure, what drew you into it?
23:51	augustl	flying_rhino: I'd say the first version, and as mentioned my editor makes it look even nicer
23:52	flying_rhino	augustl: what's your editor?
23:52	augustl	flying_rhino: emacs
23:52	Bergle_1	heh that was going to be my question to.
23:53	augustl	more specifically, if I absolutely need to know where the last parens belong (which I rarely/never do), emacs highlights any matching paren automatically for me
23:53	augustl	then there's things like paren-mode which basically stops you from manually handling indents and whitespace and lets you edit code structurally
23:53	augustl	I don't use it though, because it takes a while to get productive in it
23:54	brehaut	flying_rhino: re:lisp and c are both tree shaped. thats only useful in really abstract forms. C is statement oriented (the return keyword is a good indicator) while Lisp is expression oriented. it has a huge difference on how the two languages are written and read
23:54	augustl	flying_rhino: example: http://imgur.com/5q1s4
23:54	augustl	highlights based on cursor position
23:55	atom_	royaldark: I started learning Java, didn't quite take with me. I stumbled upon 4clojure, started checking it out and something about functional programming clicked with me where OOP and all it's constructs did not.
23:57	apwalk	flying_rhino: stacked parens are a convention, and by following a convention, your mind can reduce what it needs to figure out when scanning a piece of foreign code. the reason for stacked parens is probably along the lines of what atom_ said, but it could also be justified from a cog sic perspective because when scanning vertically, you see the important parts, symbols, instead of the bits for the compiler, parens.
23:57	flying_rhino	brehaut: yeah but even stuff like json and xml are formatted that way. Lisp is only one that just stacks parens at the end. I find that weird. You don't have to put every closing paren in new line, but I like to put stack of parens that aren't opened in last line in new line. Like in my example defn and let are in new line
23:58	flying_rhino	makes (* @x @y @z) stand out more
23:59	atom_	flying_rhino: One difference I notice between the two examples as it pertains to the last line is that your last line seems obligatory, superfluous. It also, to me, looks sloppy.