#clojure – 2012-11-19

2012-11-19

00:09	ForSpareParts	arrdem, It's a good thought, though I'd like to be able to do a play/pause/rewind sort of thing -- I'd need some kind of caching trickery to remember recently-used versions in order to get efficient enough behavior.
00:13	arrdem	ForSpareParts: my concern is that in making such a cache of usable size you would either blow out your memory limit or end up serializing entire states by saving a full snapshot as opposed to the changes.
00:15	adiabatic	(cross-posted from #noir) green-as-grass newbie question: I put (defpage "/my-page" …) into my views/welcome.clj like the default website said to, but I get an error in the server console of "Caused by: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: html in this context". Where is `html` supposed to come from?
00:15	ForSpareParts	arrdem, That's what's been on my mind, yeah. I'd have to allow the user to set some kind of limit and let data beyond the limit fall out of the history, I think.
00:17	arrdem	ForSpareParts: one thing you could look into is retaining "cursors" or reset points at some interval in the history. That way if you want to back up you don't have to integrate from t=0 but you don't continually dump either.
00:17	arrdem	so if you say I will retain three snapshots at 100, 200 and 300 changes back, reverting in that range should be pretty fast.
00:17	arrdem	beyond that, the user is on their own.
00:25	det4l	Does anyone have any good resources for someone who understands the lisp stuff but wants to understand the java stuff like the classpath, serverlets, javabeans, etc?
00:28	Sgeo	det4l, nice to meet someone in the same boat as me
00:29	Sgeo	I'm a Haskellish Lispish person
00:29	Sgeo	Not much of a Java person
00:29	Sgeo	Actually, I think there are others here in that boat
00:29	Sgeo	It's not a very rare boat
00:46	unnali	Sgeo: I'd say it's quite common. :)
00:46	unnali	Java's definitely not my thing.
00:47	yedi	how important is java knowledge when coding?
00:47	Foxboron	yedi, not very.
00:47	Foxboron	You will end up needing some knowledge about JDK and java compiling and what not
00:48	Foxboron	basically, you dont need anything before you start as you get what you need along the way :3
01:05	muhoo	you'll learn more java than you ever wanted to
01:05	unnali	hahaha
01:31	wbs_	hi to all!
01:31	wbs_	i'm using compojure and ring
01:32	wbs_	how i can use booth: wrap-session and wrap-json-params ?
01:33	arrdem	wbs_: I suspect that both are macros that provide some preprocessing... check out the source and see if you can create something equivalent to composing them?
01:51	aperiodic	you use the arrow macro
01:52	aperiodic	(-> routes wrap-x wrap-y)
01:59	arrdem	wbs_: aperiodic's got you, sorry for sending you off on a rabbit trail.
02:00	Sgeo	Why do I think of (Object.) as being so heavyweight when it's probably the lightest-weight thing I could make?
02:01	Sgeo	It suddenly occurs to me that primitives are lighter
02:02	wbs_	aperiodic yes, but in parsed json map i can't find session...
02:33	aperiodic	wbs_: odd, wrap-session works fine for me
02:33	aperiodic	wbs_: what do you mean by "parsed json map"?
02:39	Apage43	Sgeo: probably the scary . that means you're in "interop land". How does (keyword (gensym)) feel in comparison?
02:41	Sgeo	(keyword (gensym)) looks like it should be so much more lightweight, even though I know it isn't
02:41	Sgeo	I think it's the interop thing, yeah
02:41	Sgeo	And also the capital O for some reason
02:43	Apage43	(defn obj [] (Object.)) ;)
03:28	wbs_	aperiodic if wrap-session is single macros it's ok. but if i want use wrap-session with wrap-json-params it doesn't work
03:45	Sgeo	,(and)
03:46	clojurebot	true
03:46	Sgeo	,(or)
03:46	clojurebot	nil
04:10	bbloom	any word on when/if the conj videos will be available?
04:23	tomoj	so say you want a macro which walks a body passed to it, replacing invocations of some var with invocations of another
04:24	tomoj	if the macro is called in a scope where the name of the var is clobbered by a local binding, and you pass the env to resolve, you're good
04:25	tomoj	but what if the clobbering occurs inside the body passed to the macro?
04:42	scottj	bbloom: have heard they will be made available, but I'd guess on a rolling release starting in a couple weeks and lasting several months
04:42	bbloom	scottj: thanks. too bad i couldn't have made it there in person :-/
04:42	scottj	bbloom: I think confreaks did the recording, so maybe they'll be on their site instead of blip
04:43	bbloom	scottj: k, i'lll keep an eye out
04:45	scottj	bbloom: confreaks did rubyconf which happened ~nov2 and they just posted all the videos, so maybe you'll get them in 3 weeks
04:45	bbloom	scottj: heh nice :-)
04:46	bbloom	scottj: hopefully just in time for holiday travel
04:46	scottj	I think rolling release like infoq does is smartest (most exposure/more views), but I sure like getting em all at once
05:06	merodach	can you explain me what exacty the difference is between commute and alter?
05:07	merodach	as i understood sofar, if there is a modification on ref while transactions started with alter, the transaction will be rolled backed and will be retried with the updated value ?
05:09	merodach	and with commute, we got always updated value while running in a transaction?
05:11	bbloom	merodach: the difference has to do with retries and failures
05:11	bbloom	alter does a compare and, if the value has changed, will cause a retry
05:11	bbloom	commute, however, will apply the operation regardless
05:11	bbloom	merodach: explaination here http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.clojure.user/27176
05:12	bbloom	however, my experience has been that atoms are more pleasant to work with. if you need multiple values updated together, you can just stick a map in your atom
05:12	bbloom	swap! and reset! are pretty easy to understand compared to refs
05:13	bbloom	i'm not even sure when i'd ever use a ref instead of an atom
05:15	bbloom	also interesting: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/04/clojure-state-management.html
05:15	tomoj	ants seems like a pathological example
05:15	bbloom	tomoj: ?
05:15	kral	namaste
05:16	tomoj	ants.clj
05:23	bbloom	tomoj: merodach hm yeah, i guess it makes sense when you have like 1 ref per thread and want some threads to communicate together
05:23	bbloom	hadn't considered that…. i'm so used to having just one IO thread in my apps
05:24	bbloom	tomoj: heh, thanks. some shit just clicked in my head from skimming that code. hadn't seen it before
05:24	bbloom	https://github.com/johnlawrenceaspden/hobby-code/blob/master/ants.clj is the version i found
05:25	merodach	it means that the commute allows non-repeatable reads, and can cause with update failures ... etc.
05:27	bbloom	merodach: the name (and doc string) suggests the intended behavior of commute: the function you give it should be either commutative, or you accept last-one-in-wins. the idea being that the order between threads is less strictly enforced
05:27	merodach	for example we've got 2 transactions, A and B. A starts with a tranaaction and reads the counter = 2, whereas the B increments the counter to 3. but the A doesn't know that the counter has a new value
05:28	pyr	hi
05:28	merodach	and A increments also the counter to 3
05:28	merodach	and commits
05:29	bbloom	if i follow you, then alter will cause a retry, but commute should increment the counter to 4
05:30	merodach	hm confusing
05:30	merodach	here found a pretty good article about this
05:30	merodach	which confirms my assumptions
05:30	merodach	http://squirrel.pl/blog/2010/07/13/clojure-alter-vs-commute/
06:22	ground	Hello how can i get to th dll lib on win32 via clojure script?
06:23	ground	I dont really an expert in this stuff so i need solution as simple as possible
06:25	maleghast	ground: I'm sorry I don't even understand what you are asking… What are you trying to achieve?
06:25	clgv	ground: describe you problem in more detail, maybe by example
06:28	ground	Ive got a script in vba that is able to work with for example ie or lotus notes (i understand it works with com objects) and i am intersting in how its looks like from the "clojure point of view" ?
06:28	ground	And shall i need some java knowledge?
06:29	ucb	ground: if you're going to do pure clojure you don't need to know much java (I don't know more than the basics really)
06:30	ground	More less i know how it works on vb c# and ruby (win32ole)
06:30	tomoj	&(clojure.pprint/pprint '(clojure.core/deref foo))
06:30	lazybot	⇒ @foo nil
06:30	maleghast	ground: I've got to be honest, I've not written any VBA for years, but I am not particularly optimistic that you'll be able to easily write Clojure to interface with COM Objects...
06:30	ucb	ground: you may want to check the CLR compiler/interpreter for clojure if you want to do OLE
06:36	Raynes	WHY HAVE FLASH SESSIONS FORSAKEN MEEEEEEE
06:37	maleghast	s/raides/raises
06:37	Raynes	Don't raid my eyebrow, man.
06:37	Raynes	I've been through enough.
06:37	maleghast	Raynes: Hey, I figure, but it was a typo
06:53	ivenkys	gents - looking for suggestions on small Clojure projects - for newbs
06:54	maleghast	ivenkys: Are you looking for "stuff to do" or __actual__ cookbook-esque projects?
06:55	ivenkys	maleghast: either i think -
06:56	alexnixon	&[(take 2 []) (drop 2 []) (take-last 2 []) (drop-last 2 [])]
06:56	lazybot	⇒ [() () nil ()]
06:56	alexnixon	why does take-last return nil?
06:56	ivenkys	maleghast: fwiw - i have been through the Koans - (which i love) - and have done pieces of code converting from Java to Clojure - what would be good is if i can do a something small , as in manageable that would increase confidence and also allow me learn more
06:57	maleghast	ivenkys: Well, for the former I would tend to recommend Project Euler (http://www.projecteuler.net/) and 4Clojure (http://www.4clojure.com) and then there are some commonly discussed standards like Towers of Hanoi, Game of Life etc. You could also look at getting the newbs in question into fun libraries like Quil and Overtone
06:57	tomoj	alexnixon: looks like an implementation detail, take-last doesn't return a lazy seq
06:58	tgoossens	i'm searchig some examples of games writtten in clojure that don't use any identity
06:58	maleghast	As for actual projects… I'm a middleware developer and sometime web-dev, so my natural bias is toward suggesting something like porting an existing app into Clojure, using compojure (for example), but there a million different things that you could do
06:58	tkoskine	ivenkys: I am writing a compiler (for a very simply language) to learn Clojure. :)
06:58	alexnixon	tomoj: not being lazy makes sense, given it needs to count (and so realise) the entire seq
06:58	tkoskine	s/simply/simple/
06:59	alexnixon	tomoj: still, why does it return nil and not an empty list?
06:59	ivenkys	maleghast: good suggestions - had forgotten about Euler
06:59	tomoj	those aren't empty lists, they're empty lazy seqs
06:59	ucb	ivenkys: I'd also recommend you read http://prog21.dadgum.com/80.html
06:59	tomoj	take-last's definition could seemingly have been wrapped in (lazy-seq ...) like the others
06:59	ucb	ivenkys: it's so far the best advice I've found for your question
07:00	ivenkys	tkoskine: ah -.. - always the best way
07:00	ivenkys	ucb: let me take a look at that -
07:01	ivenkys	ucb: fwiw - i love James Hague's writing - no-bs and it fits on 1 screen :-)
07:01	maleghast	ucb: That is good advice, as long as it allows for the idea that sometimes people just need a little inspiration as well
07:01	ucb	ivenkys: yes :)
07:01	ucb	maleghast: yes too :)
07:01	maleghast	:-)
07:01	ucb	in any case, I used to not take that advice to heart, now I do
07:02	ivenkys	maleghast: ucb : tkoskine : gents , thanks for this - lots of food for thought there - i am taking it a week at a time and see how far i go in 4 -
07:02	ucb	ivenkys: g'luck
07:02	maleghast	ucb: Oh I completely agree - that advice / mindset is why I don't have any haskell, scala or io source code on my laptop right now… I'm fascinated by all 3 of them but I have no use for them whatsoever :-)
07:02	tkoskine	ivenkys: No problem. Actually, I am killing 2..3 birds with one stone. I am also learning Antlr4 (beta) and making parser with it, and then studying all different compiler optimizations at the same time.
07:02	ucb	maleghast: heh, good stuff
07:02	ivenkys	ucb: danke schon
07:04	ivenkys	tkoskine: fantastic - any specific "type" of simple language / parser
07:04	alexnixon	tomoj: given the truthiness of (lazy-seq nil) and nil are different, do you think there's an argument for take-last to return a lazy sequence for consistency (despite it not actually being lazy)?
07:04	tkoskine	ivenkys: Code is at https://bitbucket.org/tkoskine/antlr-ir/src - The syntax of the language is similar to Pascal/Ada/Oberon.
07:06	tomoj	alexnixon: I dunno, maybe
07:06	tomoj	if you're testing truthiness of seqs you almost surely should be calling seq on them anyway
07:06	tgoossens	in java when making a boardgame with "Piece" objects. I could give the piece a method ".canSharePositionWIth(Piece piece)". Which i think is a good way of encapsulating that logic. How would you achieve the same in clojure?
07:06	tgoossens	* a function in the map?
07:07	tgoossens	the advantage of .cansharePosition is that I could "double dispatch"
07:07	ivenkys	tkoskine: thanks for that - i am going to take a look at it -
07:07	tomoj	which makes me realize, clojure makes a mistake analogous to the havoc I imagined wreaking on Reactive's Event monad
07:07	tgoossens	what is the idomatic way of doing a similar thing in clojure?
07:07	tomoj	(er, but maybe it's not a mistake)
07:10	tomoj	tgoossens: it is hard to see how double dispatch would be advantageous there
07:11	tgoossens	well
07:11	tgoossens	for example
07:11	tgoossens	robot.cansharepositionwith(wall)
07:12	tgoossens	it is possible that robot has only information that it cannot share position with another robot. And then asks the caller what he thinks about it
07:12	tgoossens	the wall knows it cannot share position with anything
07:12	tgoossens	an item
07:12	tgoossens	can share positiion with anything but a wall
07:12	tgoossens	which will become clear out of the double dispatch
07:14	tgoossens	or am i complecting stuff here?
07:14	tgoossens	if so. what would be a simpler way of doing this?
07:15	Raynes	You just used the word 'complecting'. You're already a master Clojure programmer.
07:16	tgoossens	i've been doing 2 months investigating and learning from talks. I'm trying to become aware of those things.
07:16	tgoossens	And as an exercise
07:17	tgoossens	last year i had a project (board game) in java (for university). And want to see how i would achieve the same
07:17	tgoossens	in a functional, idiomatic clojure way
07:17	maleghast	Raynes: applause
07:17	tgoossens	lol
07:18	tomoj	how do you know not to do triple dispatch?
07:18	tomoj	and quadruple, and ...
07:18	tomoj	I mean, what if both objects say "I dunno, ask the other guy"?
07:18	tgoossens	mmyes
07:19	tgoossens	a piece is just a "map" in my code
07:19	clojurebot	Roger.
07:19	tgoossens	would it be a better idea to
07:19	tgoossens	add a key
07:19	tgoossens	:canshare (fn [piece] ....)
07:20	tomoj	I mean, in your java double dispatch, how does it stop at 2?
07:20	tgoossens	because only two objects are involved?
07:21	tomoj	consider: (defmulti can-share? (fn [a b] (type a)))
07:21	tgoossens	mmm
07:21	tgoossens	multimethods
07:21	tgoossens	and perhaps using taxonomies?
07:21	tgoossens	because i don't want to edit
07:22	tgoossens	every method everytime that i introduce a new sort of piece
07:22	tgoossens	nor edit
07:22	tomoj	(defmethod can-share? [:robot] [a b] (and (not= :wall b) (can-share? b a)))
07:22	tgoossens	tomoj: now you are using double dispatch arent you?
07:22	tomoj	I'm trying to figure out what you meant
07:22	tgoossens	yes
07:23	tgoossens	now i'm starting to think about it
07:23	tomoj	if we did stuff like that, how would it not recur indefinitely blow the stack?
07:23	tomoj	s/blow/and blow/
07:23	tgoossens	its actually pretty complex. To figure out how, why and when the dispatching will stop
07:23	tomoj	(also it probably shouldn't be #'type in the defmulti..)
07:24	tgoossens	tomoj: what do you think of my idea of using a function in the map? and using taxonomies
07:25	tomoj	well
07:25	tomoj	I don't really understand the domain
07:25	tomoj	putting the functions in the maps seems strange
07:26	tgoossens	mmm
07:26	tomoj	but I'm not sure what can-share? should mean
07:26	tgoossens	wait
07:26	tgoossens	i'll put it on pastebin
07:27	tomoj	multimethods might make sense
07:27	tgoossens	probably
07:28	tgoossens	what must change when i introduce a new type of piece
07:29	tomoj	I can't see past the double dispatch issue
07:29	tomoj	but if you have a default implementation, then nothing necessarily at all must change
07:30	tgoossens	tomoj: http://pastebin.com/brrRtqsS
07:31	tomoj	I'm guessing those are three separate files?
07:31	tgoossens	yes
07:32	tgoossens	just extracted the relevant methods out of them
07:32	tomoj	so in order to determine that the stack will never blow, you have to look at all three files and keep them all in your head at once?
07:32	tgoossens	yes that's crazy
07:32	tgoossens	hence i task. whats an easier way?
07:32	tomoj	I imagine instead representing all that information in one def
07:32	tomoj	but not sure how..
07:32	tgoossens	Because i think it is reallly difficult to figure out. And be sure that there won't be an infinite
07:33	tgoossens	dispatching
07:33	tgoossens	also doubting whether "complex" or "hard" is more relevant here
07:35	tomoj	just thinking: (defmulti can-overlap? (fn [a b] (set (:type a) (:type b)))) (defmethod can-overlap #{:robot :robot} [a b] (= a b))
07:35	tomoj	eh :(
07:36	tomoj	that doesn't work out
07:37	tgoossens	that will get really bloated after some time
07:37	tgoossens	and really difficult to keep track
07:38	tgoossens	whether you have all cases
07:38	Raynes	Games are hard.
07:38	Raynes	Stop programming and just be sarcastic like me.
07:38	tomoj	well
07:39	tgoossens	raynes: that was really useful advice ;)
07:39	tgoossens	:p
07:40	tomoj	does it make sense to ask if a robot can share position with itself?
07:40	tgoossens	that's what happens now
07:40	tgoossens	and that what's makes the dispatching stop
07:40	tgoossens	from going infinite
07:40	tgoossens	piece1.canshare(piece2)
07:40	tomoj	if the domain is really about the different types of things, you can represent the allowed configurations without worrying about identities
07:41	tgoossens	if piece1 doesn't know it
07:41	tgoossens	it will call
07:41	tgoossens	piece2.canshare(piece1)
07:41	tgoossens	if piece2 doesn't know it
07:41	tgoossens	hmm no
07:41	tgoossens	no sorry
07:41	tgoossens	i'm wrong
07:42	tomoj	I mean, obviously an individual piece can share position with itself, always
07:43	tgoossens	yes of course
07:43	tgoossens	thats trivial :p
07:43	tomoj	the simplest representation I can think of of the information in your paste is #{#{:robot :item}}
07:44	tomoj	which could be interpreted to mean that there is one allowed configuration of piece types for a given location, any number of robots and items
07:45	tomoj	well.. #{#{:robot :item} #{:wall}} ?
07:46	tgoossens	got to go. i made a post in the clojure google group
07:46	tgoossens	still got to be approved
07:47	tgoossens	so thanks already
07:47	tgoossens	and maybe we speak again
07:48	tomoj	(every? (partial subset? pieces) #{#{:robot :item} #{:wall}})
07:48	tomoj	oslt?
07:48	tomoj	5am :<
07:48	tgoossens	wow :p
07:49	ucb	anybody experiences with aleph/gloss in here? :)
07:49	tgoossens	almost 2pm here :)
07:49	ucb	*experienced
07:49	tgoossens	bye
07:49	tomoj	anyone?
07:49	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
07:49	tomoj	incidentally, yes, some..
07:50	ucb	heh
07:50	ucb	well, I'm wondering how I can represent the following protocol in gloss
07:50	tomoj	but that doesn't mean I can help you, so better to just ask the question :)
07:51	ucb	the client sends a single byte with 110, and the server responds with multiple messages shaped like :int64 (string :utf-8)
07:51	ucb	that's fine, but the thing is this is all TCP and afaik, you can't really just decode messages in an aleph tcp-client since it's all streaing, etc. so you have to have your client have the frame at hand
07:52	ucb	that's fine if you use headers, but in this case the frame should be able to infer from the 1st byte whether it's a single byte frame or a 4-byte+string frame
07:52	ucb	and I just can't figure out how to do it :(
07:53	tomoj	why infer that?
07:54	tomoj	server only ever sees the one-byte frame, and client only ever sees the 4-byte+string frame?
07:57	ucb	tomoj: sure, but afaik (keep in mind I'm not too knowledgeable in all things gloss/aleph) since it's TCP (I read this in the aleph google group) you can't just read a message from the channel and manually decode it
07:57	ucb	tomoj: so you have to create the tcp-client with :frame the-frame
07:57	ucb	tomoj: and then just (encode @client {:some "data"})
07:58	ucb	tomoj: assuming the frame has a header and can decode back and forth between server and client messages
07:58	ucb	tomoj: to be honest, I'd rather do the manual decoding, and that's how I started. But this cant-really-decode-tcp thing rained on my parade :(
08:00	tomoj	oh, of course
08:01	ucb	so, most other messages in the protocol have a reserved byte for req/resp detection; that's the easy bit, but this other one really sucks :(
08:01	ucb	unless I break the 4 bytes in the response in :byte :byte :int16 and then glue them together myself?
08:02	tomoj	I think you can pass separate frames for :encoder and :decoder
08:02	ucb	oh? that'd be ideal!
08:03	tomoj	like (tcp-client {:host "localhost", :port 10000, :encoder (compile-frame :byte) :decoder (compile-frame [:int64 (string :utf-8)])}) ?
08:03	ucb	tomoj: I truly hope that works; let me try
08:04	tomoj	hmm
08:05	tomoj	I don't think I actually understand the code I was looking at, but maybe it works ...
08:06	tomoj	see doc for start-tcp-server
08:21	Anderkent	Anyone used clj-http? I'm having issues getting it to work with multipart requests
08:21	ucb	tomoj: sorry, real life got in the way, I'm going to try your suggestion now
08:23	ucb	tomoj: where in the src did you see what you saw? https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/blob/perf/src/aleph/tcp.clj
08:28	ucb	tomoj: perhaps you meant https://github.com/ztellman/aleph/blob/perf/src/aleph/formats.clj#L464
08:31	deu5	Hi. Do you know any bigger and more mature clojure framework then Noir ?
08:34	ucb	tomoj: that did it; thanks!
09:26	rodnaph	hi - i'm trying to use cljs-watch but getting NoClassDefFoundError clojure/main (have clojurescript and cljs-watch on my path already) - anyone know this tool, something obvious i'm missing? thanks
09:26	rodnaph	ping ibdknox if ur online ;)
09:29	rodnaph	oh actually... i'm trying to use cljs-watch from a non-leiningen project - is this why it's not finding clojure?
09:30	rodnaph	hmm... no, cljs-watch seems to set the cp to use clojure from the clojurescript_home folder...
09:34	gauravag	Hey any suggestions for testing?
09:48	madsy	Is there a tried-and-tested database library for Clojure?
09:48	madsy	I'd prefer a SQL backend, but anything goes really
09:48	znDuff	madsy: Lots of 'em. I suggest SQLAlchemy if you're not sure what you want.
09:49	madsy	znDuff: Thanks
10:05	antares_	madsy: clojure.java.jdbc, database clients on http://clojurewerkz.org all count as battle tested
10:09	oskar	I'm doing some Java interop, the Java constructor is defined Fields(Comparable... fields), so I need to pass an array of Comparables, right? How can I construct one of those from a seq for example?
10:15	ucb	,(doc into-array)
10:15	clojurebot	"([aseq] [type aseq]); Returns an array with components set to the values in aseq. The array's component type is type if provided, or the type of the first value in aseq if present, or Object. All values in aseq must be compatible with the component type. Class objects for the primitive types can be obtained using, e.g., Integer/TYPE."
10:16	ucb	oskar: ˆˆˆˆˆˆˆ
10:21	oskar	ucb thanks
10:21	ucb	np
10:48	jheander	good morning!
10:49	rodnaph	late afternoon here ;)
10:50	jheander	nice :)
10:50	ro_st	same. south africa?
10:50	rodnaph	uk
10:51	rodnaph	good morning to you anyway jheander
10:52	jheander	If I have a piece of code that makes calls to a different module and I want to break this out to a separate library and be able to replace the module with a bunch of modules that all contains the same function signatures. How can I do this idiomatically in clojure? Protocols or multi methods?
10:53	jheander	or maybe some dynamic namespace loading?
10:53	rodnaph	vijaykiran: :O ...
10:54	znDuff	jheander: That's not really enough information to decide on the appropriate construct
10:55	znDuff	jheander: If one has multiple modules implementing versions of those functions, how should the correct one be selected? If the answer is "type of the first argument", protocols are the right thing.
10:55	Foxboron	Someone tell me if the Clojure community is overall very "Emacs > everything"?
10:56	ro_st	we like emacs because of the excellent repl support
10:56	ro_st	and, we're writing lisp. emacs is a lisp. it's a natural fit
10:56	ro_st	i'd use sublime text 2 in a heartbeat if it had as good repl support and paredit
10:57	ro_st	but, it doesn't. so, emacs :-)
10:57	jheander	hmm..right. No, today I have a project where I have a layer that deals with a database, and then a processing layer with different kinds of functions that merge and do computations based on information from the DB layer. The app has grown quite a bit and I now want to break out the processing layer and have it work with any db module that contains the same function signatures. So basically there will (so far) only be one module implementing these functions
10:57	jheander	any given context although they are probably always different.
10:57	Hodapp	Foxboron: #clojure has plenty of people on Eclipse, on IntelliJ, on Sublime Text (I think), on vim, and on Emacs. But it's my understanding that most Clojure devs use Emacs.
10:57	znDuff	Foxboron: the annual community survey covers editor choices.
10:58	znDuff	~survey
10:58	clojurebot	survey is http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
10:58	znDuff	Foxboron: ^^^
10:58	jheander	Right now I'm trying protocols together with alter-var-root and a dynamic var but it seems kind of cumbersome
10:58	jheander	don't really want to manually register my module that way, would be nice if loading it was enough...
10:59	Foxboron	hahahaha
10:59	Foxboron	Sublime Text is not even on the list :P
11:00	ro_st	i use ST to search and browse, and emacs to edit and repl
11:00	ro_st	but that's because i haven't dedicated a couple days to configuring helm yet
11:00	jheander	plus I kind of have to define my functions twice, once with the real code in the module and once as a kind proxy-definition inside a reify of the protocol
11:08	jheander	maybe multimethods would fit?
11:10	Anderkent	Any utility function to read bytes from input stream / file?
11:12	Negdayen	jheander: I might dynamically load the code in using (load _) if the modules all define the same namespace functions and are contained in their own file. i am curious as to the idiomatic solution, too, however.
11:16	jheander	How would you know which file to load inside the lib? Or would you dynamically load the lib-file inside the implementing module?
11:17	Negdayen	the latter, yeah.
11:18	pyr	so what do people use when doing clojurescript for "apps" wrt routing ?
11:18	pyr	is snout the de-facto standard ?
11:20	jheander	I guess robert.hooke would work fine too :) Probably not very idiomatic though :)
11:26	DaReaper5	Hi, I am having trouble understanding exactly what deref/@ is/does
11:26	S11001001	,(doc deref) ; DaReaper5, in which sense?
11:26	clojurebot	"([ref] [ref timeout-ms timeout-val]); Also reader macro: @ref/@agent/@var/@atom/@delay/@future/@promise. Within a transaction, returns the in-transaction-value of ref, else returns the most-recently-committed value of ref. When applied to a var, agent or atom, returns its current state. When applied to a delay, forces it if not already forced. When applied to a future, will block if computation n...
11:27	DaReaper5	Nosrat, say what?
11:27	S11001001	DaReaper5: spammy
11:28	DaReaper5	? Nosrat is spamming?
11:28	S11001001	apparently.
11:28	DaReaper5	Wierd
11:28	DaReaper5	Maybe he does not like my name
11:28	DaReaper5	Or broken
11:28	CaptainDerp	Test
11:29	CaptainDerp	hmm
11:29	uvtc	DaReaper5 , CaptainDerp : Do you know Python?
11:29	S11001001	Not getting your automessaging scripts right counts as spam.
11:29	CaptainDerp	uvtc no
11:29	CaptainDerp	S11001001 sorry i dont know what you mean
11:29	uvtc	What is "-Nosrat-"?
11:30	S11001001	uvtc, CaptainDerp: someone who set up a script wrong, or a terrible bot; either way, mass pointless messaging on every msg counts as spam.
11:30	CaptainDerp	Ok, so why i am confused with deref is that I do not find their examples usful. It is just returning the number defined. If i could have an example of deref compared to something else that would be helpful
11:30	S11001001	uvtc: the - indicates the message type was NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG in the irc protocol
11:32	uvtc	CaptainDerp: Well, in Clojure, names refer directly to things, and are automatically "dereferenced". You write `(def a 3)`, then `a` and you get back `3` automatically. But Clojure also has "reference types", which are explicit references that you manually dereference when you want to access their values.
11:32	uvtc	S11001001: thanks for the info. :)
11:32	S11001001	CaptainDerp: ##(let [x (atom 42)] (+ x 3))
11:32	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Atom cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
11:32	S11001001	CaptainDerp: ##(let [x (atom 42)] (+ @x 3))
11:32	lazybot	⇒ 45
11:33	CaptainDerp	Ok makes sence now, that helps alot
11:33	CaptainDerp	Quiet Nosrat :P
11:33	CaptainDerp	That one example and explanation helped more than the offical doc or stackoverflow haha
11:34	uvtc	:)
11:35	CaptainDerp	Another question, is it extreamly bad practice to have a global def in clojure which multiple threads may be accessing?
11:36	S11001001	CaptainDerp: side effects should be avoided
11:37	CaptainDerp	Is it best to wrap the global def in an atom?
11:37	S11001001	CaptainDerp: if you aren't performing side-effects on it, there is no reason to do so.
11:37	uvtc	CaptainDerp: My understanding is that you should try to restrict your use of global mutable state as much as possible, but you still need it sometimes.
11:39	ejackson	CaptainDerp: if it doesn't change then no
11:39	ejackson	if it does then it needs to be a def to a reference type
11:39	CaptainDerp	S11001001 basically I need a map that is accessable my multiple threads which contain a blocking queue where the key is tied to the user session (maybe tmi?)
11:40	S11001001	CaptainDerp: depends on whether you change the map.
11:40	CaptainDerp	S11001001 yes i do
11:40	S11001001	CaptainDerp: then follow ejackson's advice
11:40	CaptainDerp	that is why i was thinking that atom might be a good idea
11:41	CaptainDerp	wow nosrat is anoying, should i rejoin?
11:42	S11001001	CaptainDerp: be warned that atom works in fewer situations than ref
11:43	uvtc	CaptainDerp: I've never seen these "-Nosrat-" notices before.
11:44	ejackson	what are they ?
11:45	ejackson	who did I annoy ?
11:45	CaptainDerp	i think the question is who did i annoy
11:46	CaptainDerp	ok i think im getting a better handle on reference types, but what is the difference between a "ref" and an "atom". I am specifically confused about "coordinated" vs "independent"
11:46	uvtc	ejackson: every time I post a message, I get a message ( S11001001 points out that they are NOTICE s) from "-Nosrat-" oddly telling me not to use profanity.
11:46	znDuff	CaptainDerp: refs can participate in transactions
11:46	uvtc	ejackson: why do you ask "who did I annoy?". Is it your bot?
11:46	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...so you can have a bunch of refs which, to the world outside a transaction, appear to change their values all at once or not at all.
11:47	znDuff	CaptainDerp: whereas each atom is independent of every other; they aren't transactional in nature.
11:47	ejackson	I have no bots - but every time I say anything it has sage advice for me
11:47	ejackson	perhaps as they're notices you're not seeing them all
11:47	CaptainDerp	ejackson ... so are you saying we are the only ones seeing nosrat and not other people?
11:47	uvtc	ejackson: I only see the ones in reply to messages I type.
11:47	duck1123	CaptainDerp: The analogy I've gotten is if you've received two events at the same time, do you care that they both happen in the order they're recieved, or just that they both happen properly
11:48	unic0rn	(just a test - ignore this message)
11:48	ejackson	yes me too - I only see nosrat whenever I say anything
11:48	unic0rn	no notice here.
11:48	ejackson	i'm guessing its the same for everybody else ?
11:48	duck1123	I'm not seeing these notices
11:48	CaptainDerp	duck1123 ok i think i understand now
11:48	unic0rn	oh here it is.
11:48	metellus	(test)
11:48	CaptainDerp	Refs coordinate among eachother
11:48	CaptainDerp	atoms do not
11:48	CaptainDerp	which means an atom is what i need
11:48	ejackson	CaptainDerp: that's the correct understanding
11:49	ejackson	bit its those scala kids having a laugh at our expense :)
11:49	duck1123	CaptainDerp: So, say you're incrementing a counter. You don't really care that one increments before the other, just that they both do the right thing when they get to go through
11:50	TimMc	If you need a coordinated counter, you can use `commute` on refs.
11:50	CaptainDerp	Ok, that is a really cool feature. Good to know
11:51	jbroome	ping
11:52	Sgeo	Is there any way to restart a dosync transaction if an arbitrary condition is not met?
11:54	Guest98876	Sgeo: refs can be created with a validate-fn
11:55	TimMc	Sgeo: Sounds hinky, what's the use-case?
11:55	uvtc	test
11:55	uvtc	Ugh. Tried `/ignore -Nosrat- NOTI` but that didn't do it.
11:56	Sgeo	Have a hash-map I want to update as I scan the world for objects. But as I do that, I may also receive events of objects being added/deleted. So I want to hold off acting on those until my scan is done
11:56	uvtc	another test (sorry)
11:56	znDuff	~ops
11:56	clojurebot	Huh?
11:56	znDuff	Bah. Was hoping there would be someone handy to kick the bot.
11:57	Anderkent	Sgeo: why not have the entire scan in one transaction? Then no one but the scanner can change the world until it's done.
11:57	uvtc	Using `ALL` didn't work either. If anyone can tell me how to ignore -Nosrat- on xchat, I'm all ears. :)
11:57	znDuff	uvtc: it's just Nosrat, without the dashes.
11:57	Sgeo	Anderkent, because the scan is of an external environment
11:57	uvtc	test
11:58	Sgeo	And to do the scan I would set a callback, which sees each individual item as it is scanned
11:58	Sgeo	I don't think I could hold a transaction over that period of time. Also, bad idea to do I/O in a transaction
11:58	TimMc	uvtc: Drop the hyphens.
11:58	uvtc	znDuff: Thanks! After doing `/ignore Nosrat NOTI`, it reported "Nosrat!@ added to ignore list." (Dunno what the !@ was for.
11:58	TimMc	nick!ident@host
12:00	Sgeo	I guess I could have the added/deleted object callbacks store stuff into a ref or maybe an agent if the scan isn't done
12:00	Anderkent	Sgeo: So you want to restart the scan after every event?
12:00	uvtc	TimMc: +1 Informative! :)
12:00	jbroome	See how long that lasts
12:00	Sgeo	There are three events: Object scanned, object added, object deleted
12:00	S11001001	(inc TimMc)
12:00	lazybot	⇒ 21
12:00	S11001001	uvtc I think you mean :)
12:01	uvtc	Actually, I was looking for the "the more you know" ascii/emoticon, but just went with +1 instead. :)
12:02	S11001001	(inc jbroome)
12:02	lazybot	⇒ 1
12:04	flying_rhino	hello
12:04	uvtc	flying_rhino: hi.
12:05	flying_rhino	does clojure has something like c 'struct' type? (Java equivalent would be class with no methods and all elements public)
12:06	Bronsa	defrecort
12:06	Bronsa	defrecord*
12:06	TimMc	flying_rhino: maps are pretty similar.
12:06	flying_rhino	TimMc: but dnamic
12:06	flying_rhino	which means performace loss.
12:06	flying_rhino	*dynamic
12:06	S11001001	flying_rhino: premature optimization is...
12:07	uvtc	flying_rhino: Note, I think that in olden tymes there was a defstruct too, but I believe that's pretty much deprecated now.
12:08	flying_rhino	S11001001: ... punishable by crucifixion. Yeah I know but even if I want late optimization, if clojure doesn't have something then how am I gonna optimize even later?
12:08	Bronsa	flying_rhino: deftype/defrecord are what you want.
12:08	S11001001	flying_rhino: then later, ^^ Bronsa
12:09	flying_rhino	okay
12:10	abev	quit
12:10	abev	bye
12:10	abev	exit
12:10	flying_rhino	bye
12:10	abev	bye
12:16	antoineB	hello, i would use "\|\|" operator of javascript, i suspect "or" don't behave the same
12:17	S11001001	antoineB: you'd be right
12:17	S11001001	antoineB: there are only two false values in Clojure.
12:21	mycelloandi	if i have [(read-int s) (read-int s) (read-int s)] will the order of evaluating the read-ints be guaranteed to be from left to right or should i read them separately within a let?
12:22	wingy	ibdknox: what the reason for removing the LIVE button in instarepl?
12:39	seangrove	Hey all, I'm trying to switch from swank-clojure to nrepl, and it's more or less fine, except I can't use C-x C-e, or really anything that evals the current buffer into the repl
12:39	technomancy	seangrove: yeah for some reason nrepl.el requires you do a full load of the entire file (C-c C-k) before anything works =\
12:40	technomancy	I tried to talk him out of it, but apparently it's intentional
12:40	ChongLi	seangrove: you can set up a hook to solve that
12:40	seangrove	Ah, that sounds nice
12:40	Sgeo	technomancy, shouldn't that be documented somewhere?
12:40	seangrove	That may not be the problem though, I'm getting these errors:
12:40	seangrove	"Symbol's function definition is void: lisp-eval-last-sexp" and "lisp-eval-defun: Process lisp does not exist"
12:41	ChongLi	the question I have is how to get colorized stacktraces in nrepl.el's error window
12:41	technomancy	Sgeo: maybe. I don't really know how to explain it because the behaviour is so batty.
12:41	mycelloandi	seangrove: i noticed that too
12:41	seangrove	Sure those aren't caused by not loading the file first?
12:41	ChongLi	they work fine on loose files but not on files inside a leiningen project's src directory
12:41	technomancy	if I documented it, it would just say "here is the way in which it's broken" which I don't think the maintainer would appreciate =)
12:41	technomancy	seangrove: you don't have nrepl active
12:42	ChongLi	technomancy: any ideas about that?
12:42	technomancy	ChongLi: I haven't gotten that figured out yet
12:42	seangrove	technomancy: What does 'active' mean in this case? The repl is open and running in another buffer, started via nrepl-jack-in
12:43	technomancy	seangrove: nrepl-interactive-mode isn't enabled in the current buffer
12:43	seangrove	technomancy: Ah, yes, that seems to be it
12:47	dnolen	technomancy: so does checkouts actually get any real special handling in lein 1/2? I'm trying to figure out if people can test patches just by checking out clojurescript into their project and using :extra-classpaths-dirs w/o bothering to create the checkouts dir.
12:49	technomancy	dnolen: I don't know what the requirements for clojurescript are, but checkouts are just one way to get things on the classpath following the most common pattern. you can do it other ways, though checking in changes to the project.clj file for a checkout that only exists on your machine is an antipattern
12:49	technomancy	that's why I've always emphasized that checkouts are opt-in; someone on a team may be interested in using them without making everyone else go through the same steps. so it's invisible to version control.
12:52	dnolen	technomancy: yeah this isn't about permanently changing project.clj - just a way to easily patch a version of CLJS and test against an existing project.
12:53	dnolen	technomancy: if I try to use checkouts w/ Lein 2, it doesn't work with ClojureScript because it doesn't have a project.clj
12:53	dnolen	technomancy: all I care about is a step of steps to override whatever version of ClojureScript the user has w/ a master checkout that they can patch and test w/.
12:53	dnolen	set of steps.
12:54	technomancy	dnolen: if it's just to test then the simplest way would be to get a snapshot into the local repo
12:54	technomancy	checkouts are for when you want to make continual changes to the dependency project
12:54	technomancy	sounds like that's overkill here
12:54	dnolen	technomancy: yeah that's way more complicated than what checkouts lets you do, git clone, git am go.
12:55	antoineB	how to create a javascript object in cljs? (js-obj give me something like that {":abc": 12} where i expect {abc: 12})
12:55	technomancy	you could provide a dummy project.clj file for people to drop in
12:56	dnolen	technomancy: so my question is, for lein 2, is :extra-classpaths-dir sufficient to override what the the CLJS the user has installed?
12:56	technomancy	no, :extra-classpaths-dir is deprecated
12:57	technomancy	you can abuse :resource-paths to do the same thing in lein2
12:58	technomancy	s/deprecated/removed/
12:58	dnolen	technomancy: k, this kinda seems tedious for anyone wanting to test patches of libs against their projects tho. I guess people just put up w/ it?
12:59	technomancy	haven't heard much complaints. it's not very common that you want to do this for a project that doesn't have a project.clj
13:00	dnolen	technomancy: anyone trying to test patches w/ ClojureScript will encounter this and the list of contributors is growing
13:02	dnolen	technomancy: but :resource-paths is a sufficient hack for now, thx
13:02	technomancy	sure
13:10	mpenet	antoineB: It seems right, js-obj expects a stringy key, it will just apply .toString to the key I guess
13:12	ivan	is there some evil hack to make pst (and other repl functions) available in nREPL even when you're not in the user namespace?
13:12	ivan	preferably not by actually adding them to every namespace
13:12	dnolen	mpenet: all tests pass pushing up your patch now.
13:12	mpenet	antoineB: clj->js will do what you want (it's available on jayq and almost every other cljs lib out there, and hopefully in core soon)
13:12	mpenet	dnolen: sweet! thanks
13:13	technomancy	ivan: you can intern it in clojure.core, but that's horrible. best to just expose it in your client
13:13	antoineB	mpenet: i use js* until now
13:14	dnolen	http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/cd66e6b9e63ad5ef1896a9c7a117148beb04301d
13:14	ivan	technomancy: expose it how? some form rewriting in the nREPL server?
13:14	mpenet	the short version of clj->js in jayq is only a couple of lines and it's more powerfull
13:14	mpenet	antoineB: well, it does this recursively
13:15	dnolen	mpenet: thx much!
13:15	technomancy	ivan: a new command in nrepl.el; eg M-x nrepl-pst or some such
13:15	mpenet	dnolen: Thanks for your help/guidance, lots of new stuff for me
13:15	ivan	technomancy: oh, right, I guess that would work, thanks
13:16	technomancy	ivan: IIRC reply does something similar with doc and cdoc
13:16	ivan	ah
13:16	technomancy	intercepts them and fully qualifies them client-side
13:16	antoineB	mpenet: no
13:16	technomancy	much less likely to cause collision that way since it only applies to directly-entered code
13:16	ivan	right
13:17	mpenet	antoineB: I meant clj->js does, not js-obj
13:18	antoineB	i understand
13:20	dnolen	if anyone cares about moving CLJS source map support forward you could help me out by confirming that the following patch works w/ Lein 2 (read all the comments): http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-282
13:24	cemerick	ivan: This is an open question. At the moment, I'm leaning towards not offering anything in nREPL itself for it. http://groups.google.com/group/clojuredev-users/t/8f9709be5d8ab041
13:25	seangrove	dnolen: You mean just checkout cljs and use it on an existing project, and see if this problem crops up? I'm hacking in cljs all day today, would be happy to give it a try
13:25	ivan	sounds reasonable, making clients do the expansion makes sense to me
13:26	ivan	though I'd have to think about it for hours to make sure
13:26	dnolen	seangrove: I actually want someone to confirm that it works for them using the minimal test case project linked to in the comment thread. the project doesn't do anything, it just has some dependencies setup in a way that the issue can be recreated.
13:26	cemerick	ivan: it's not expansion; just prepending `(use '[lib.name.here :only (var-a var-b)])` to each eval is sufficient
13:27	technomancy	cemerick: eh... is that what reply does?
13:27	dnolen	seangrove: the project has instructions to recreate that have to be followed closely, I've already confirmed that it works for me, but I'd like to hear from at least one other person on Lein 2.
13:27	technomancy	input expansion has much more limited potential for conflict
13:27	technomancy	and should be preferred when possible IMO
13:27	seangrove	Sure, I'll give it a try. Been on Lein 2 for a few days now
13:28	ivan	if I do (in-ns 'otherns) and paste in some block of code that uses `doc` I expect it to not work
13:28	cemerick	technomancy: no, reply doesn't do anything in this area AFAIK. Maybe I missed the beginning of the conversation; not up on what input expansion implies here.
13:28	technomancy	cemerick: I mean fully-qualifying calls to doc, cdoc, etc in a way that only applies to repl input
13:28	cemerick	ah, ok
13:30	technomancy	trptcolin: is that how reply works or does it refer stuff everywhere?
13:31	cemerick	sure, that'd work as well. Though that requires reading input before sending it, which not all clients do.
13:31	trptcolin	sorry, catching up
13:31	cemerick	technomancy: the implicit refers you're seeing are an interaction between nREPL and Clojure <= 1.4.0.
13:32	technomancy	just wondering how convenience fns are made available
13:32	trptcolin	technomancy: right, unfortunately (doc thing) doesn't have the ability to work outside of the usual explicit refers
13:32	technomancy	oh, gotcha.
13:32	cemerick	technomancy: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/NREPL-31
13:32	technomancy	trptcolin: do you think it's a good idea to refer it at read-time?
13:32	trptcolin	the only current magic outside of the user (or perhaps :main?) ns is for exit/quit
13:33	technomancy	gotcha
13:34	trptcolin	i think it would be awesome to have that available from a user's perspective. i'm a little worried about the implications of trying to replace 'doc with the fully-qualified version.
13:34	trptcolin	e.g. does it happen only in function call position? or anywhere it's a symbol?
13:34	technomancy	right; it could lead to unpredictable weirdness I guess
13:34	trptcolin	although i guess nobody really uses those as input to a HOF...
13:34	cemerick	I really need to get my cljx middleware out there.
13:35	ivan	(doc doc) not working would be a little weird, yeah
13:35	clojurebot	"([name]); Prints documentation for a var or special form given its name"
13:35	trptcolin	the good news its it'd be almost trivial implementation-wise with sjacket, provided there's a clear set of rules
13:35	ChongLi	hmm
13:35	cemerick	trptcolin: if only there was a logic-programming-driven code transformation library out there.
13:35	cemerick	;-)
13:36	ChongLi	trying to debug this is tricky
13:36	ChongLi	since the callback is a lambda and the arguments are a lot of binary garbage
13:36	trptcolin	cemerick: hehe. sure, just dump it in kibit and it'll figure out the dirty bits :)
13:37	seangrove	dnolen: I see the problematic behavior
13:38	ivan	maybe REPL clients should always be wrapping with some kind of (from-repl ...) form that can be broken out of if needed
13:38	seangrove	I'll gist it...
13:38	ivan	but then we might see weirdness like no working tab completion
13:38	bryanl	Can someone help explain why I am getting the cannot cast long to to ifn message I'm getting? https://gist.github.com/4112597
13:39	dnolen	seangrove: using Lein 2 + :resource-paths?
13:39	seangrove	Ah, no, sorry, didn't use the resource paths
13:39	seangrove	Confirmed the problematic current behavior :)
13:40	seangrove	Trying again with resource-paths
13:40	Anderkent	bryanl: you define next-person-id as the result of (alter count inc), which evaluates to 1. Then you call it in (next-person-id).
13:40	Anderkent	oh nvm
13:40	Anderkent	i missed the # :P
13:40	dnolen	seangrove: cool, when testing the patch you need to use :resource-paths to override whatever version of ClojureScript you have installed. Thanks much again for trying this out.
13:41	lynaghk	dnolen: Paul and I did some serious core.logic hacking on the way back from the conj. Two questions: 1) what was that default value syntax that will be overriden if unified against but otherwise act as a usual value?
13:41	cemerick	trptcolin: some WIP cljx (kibit) nREPL middleware https://gist.github.com/4112677 /cc lynaghk jonasen technomancy
13:41	amalloy	bryanl: X cannot be cast to IFn always means, you are calling an X as if it were a function
13:42	Anderkent	bryanl: in your threading macro you try to apply 0 to result of next-person-id
13:42	lynaghk	dnolen: and 2) the new walk protocol doesn't recurse, which feels like a bug. E.g., (prep {:a {:b ?c} :d ?d}) preps ?d but does not prep ?c.
13:42	dnolen	lynaghk: I haven't added that (defaults) yet, I easily can.
13:42	Anderkent	(macroexpand `(-> BirthEvent (next-person-id) 0))
13:42	Anderkent	,(macroexpand `(-> BirthEvent (next-person-id) 0))
13:42	clojurebot	(0 (clojure.core/-> sandbox/BirthEvent (sandbox/next-person-id)))
13:42	amalloy	in this case your existing code basically makes no sense, and so i can't tell you how to fix it. just keep in mind that your -> form expands to (0 (next-person-id BirthEvent))
13:43	lynaghk	dnolen: ahh! awesome. I recall you mentioned it at 2:30 a.m. and I just assumed that I'd forgotten it and couldn't find it in the source.
13:43	dnolen	lynaghk: hmm, recurse - seems like a simple oversight. surprised that wasn't caught by the tests.
13:43	dnolen	"by a test" I mean.
13:43	bryanl	amalloy: thank you. that's helpful
13:43	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, I was too. I can submit a patch with test in the next day or two.
13:43	bryanl	Anderkent: and thank you as well
13:44	lynaghk	dnolen: and, just to be clear, the walk should be over everything---correct? e.g., it should walk into map keys as well as their values
13:45	dnolen	lynaghk: oh right, yeah it probably doesn't do that.
13:45	dnolen	lynaghk: is that a different issue you encountered? ticket created for the other one - http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/LOGIC-69
13:46	lynaghk	dnolen: no, same issue. I just wanted to ask you about the scope before I submitted a patch---i.e., if there is any reason you wouldn't want the walk to act on a map's complex keys
13:48	dnolen	lynaghk: k ticket updated, will probably get to it later today - pretty simple one.
13:48	dnolen	cemerick: it always saddens me to see people dev things like cljx :)
13:48	lynaghk	dnolen: if you want to handle it, that's cool with me too =P
13:49	lynaghk	dnolen: me too!
13:49	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah easy one - that and defaults. I actually want to wrap up 0.8.0. anything else you want to get on the list? if so make tickets please.
13:50	dnolen	solidfying the lower level constraint details will have to wait for a later release.
13:51	lynaghk	dnolen: those are the only two I'm aware of at the moment. The record unifications are all working awesome.
13:51	dnolen	lynaghk: SWEET
13:51	cemerick	dnolen: oh?
13:51	cemerick	w.r.t. portability, you mean?
13:51	dnolen	lynaghk: still interested in or?
13:51	lynaghk	dnolen: the current constraint annotations work fine for me. I am doing a bit of contorting for one specific constraint that I will gist up later for you, but I don't think there's anything that could go into core.logic that'd make it cleaner.
13:52	lynaghk	dnolen: no, I don't need it now that the record stuff is all workin'
13:52	dnolen	cemerick: would prefer feature expression support once and for all.
13:52	cemerick	yeah
13:52	dnolen	lynaghk: any thoughts about the namespace keywords, I was inclined to do ^numeric - but that's asking for clashes.
13:53	cemerick	But there are good reasons to want to implicitly rewrite code.
13:53	cemerick	s/good/occasionally good
13:54	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, Paul and I discussed that for quite a bit. some of the fiddly bits I'm doing is to support things like ^:data-numeric, but that's only because I control the input. Not sure how you could do something short like that without the risk of clashes.
13:54	ChongLi	technomancy: ah, I solved my problem; just had to install clj-stacktrace
13:55	seangrove	dnolen: And should I apply http://dev.clojure.org/jira/secure/attachment/11686/cljs_282.patch before testing it?
13:55	seangrove	I've done it both ways, still getting the same erroneous behavior, but want to double check
13:55	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah it's a little bit tedious I think right now - but I don't see anything better except perhaps passing a map of constraints to the unifier?
13:56	dnolen	lynaghk: that would be in addition to metadata support
13:56	dnolen	seangrove: yeah you need to apply the patch - then test.
13:56	cemerick	pp
13:56	lynaghk	dnolen: that would be awesome, actually. In doing that you would be able to put constraints between lvars, correct?
13:56	dnolen	lynaghk: sure
13:57	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, that would cover the nasty case I'm currently thinking about (which involves a relationship between ?data and ?x in an expression like {:data ?data :mapping {:x ?x}})
13:57	dnolen	lynaghk: I don't have the bandwidth to ponder syntax from scratch - would like some idea contributions on that front - gist of something that works for you would be helpful and I can chime in.
13:57	seangrove	And seeing "WARN ignoring checkouts directory clojurescript as it does not contain a project.clj file." should be fine?
13:57	lynaghk	dnolen: you'll have it by this time tomorrow.
13:57	dnolen	lynaghk: thx
13:58	lynaghk	dnolen: thank you dude, you're a machine = )
13:58	dnolen	seangrove: sorry, last comment in the ticket says - don't create checkouts directory, just checkout CLJS into your project. use :resource-paths
13:58	dnolen	seangrove: if you're seeing that error from Lein, it's not setup correctly.
13:59	lynaghk	dnolen: one other issue I wanted to ask you about: would you would be open to me exposing some Google Closure options within ClojureScript? In particular, I need to use the --output_wrapper flag to prevent clashes between adv. optimized cljs and other on-page minified JS.
13:59	dnolen	seangrove: and applying the patch won't matter - it's ignoring your local checkout of CLJS
13:59	dnolen	lynaghk: there's already an output-wrapper option
13:59	lynaghk	accessible from something like lein-cljsbuild?
14:00	dnolen	lynaghk: if lein-cljsbuild passes everything along it should just work. :output-wrapper true
14:00	lynaghk	dnolen: I dug through the clojurescript compiler code and I didn't see a way to get to that flag
14:00	dnolen	lynaghk: line 913 closure.clj in master
14:00	dnolen	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-388
14:01	lynaghk	dnolen: well damn. that's what I get for sitting on an issue for a month.
14:01	lynaghk	dnolen: thanks!
14:01	dnolen	lynaghk: np
14:01	seangrove	dnolen: ok, setup properly, trying again
14:02	tomoj	(deftype Foo [^:unsynchronized-mutable foo] IFoo (swap-foo [this f] (locking this (set! foo (f foo))))) -- pretend locking works here. isn't there still a concurrency bug since the field is unsynchronized?
14:03	tomoj	i.e. swap-foo may get a cached value of foo in one thread which has already been swapped past in another?
14:04	amalloy	tomoj: i think so, yeah
14:05	tomoj	can't seem to cause it to happen
14:05	amalloy	that's pretty much how race conditions work
14:05	tomoj	:(
14:05	tomoj	I bought that big java concurrency book but haven't gotten around to reading it yet, oi
14:05	seangrove	dnolen: Still see the bad behavior https://gist.github.com/4112913
14:06	tomoj	my guess is volatile would solve that problem?
14:06	amalloy	tomoj: yes, it would
14:06	amalloy	http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jtp06197/index.html is a good article on the topic
14:06	gfredericks	tomoj: amalloy: as someone not very familiar with these issues, I'm curious why (locking this ...) doesn't mitigate the problem you're describing
14:07	gfredericks	(i.e., if it doesn't what _does_ it do?)
14:07	tomoj	that makes sure the swaps are serialized
14:07	tomoj	but it doesn't (I think) guarantee that any particular swapping thread will have seen the effects of the previously serialized swaps
14:08	dnolen	seangrove: so we need to verify that your local checkout is actually being used - modify your local copy to print something in parse-ns
14:08	gfredericks	there must be complexifying details there I'm unaware of because that doesn't sound possible in my mental model
14:08	seangrove	dnolen: Sure
14:09	amalloy	gfredericks: java variables that aren't declared volatile may be cached for any length of time by any thread, afaik
14:09	cemerick	gfredericks: reads and writes to unsyncrhonized fields aren't atomic
14:11	gfredericks	cemerick: atomicity shouldn't be an issue since it's all serialized; but amalloy's caching description makes sense of it
14:11	cemerick	volatile effectively linearizes potentially-concurrent reads and writes
14:11	seangrove	dnolen: To confirm though, this project.clj looks right? https://gist.github.com/4112913#file_project.clj
14:11	amalloy	to be fair, i just rephrased what tomoj said
14:11	gfredericks	amalloy: "caching" applies to CPU registers specifically? otherwise may as well just let the memory caches do their thing, right?
14:12	amalloy	i dunno, man. ask tomoj, or read the article i linked
14:12	cemerick	gfredericks: just because only one thread is within a context at a time doesn't mean that it is seeing the most recent values of unsynchronized fields.
14:12	gfredericks	amalloy: I am reading it; thanks
14:12	trptcolin	right, so reads would have to lock as well on an unsynchronized-mutable. though i wonder if in some situations an int/byte might be safe?
14:13	trptcolin	(provided the field is typed that way)
14:13	cemerick	trptcolin: no, you can't solve the problem with more locks. The introduction of volatile in Java 5 is the only way out.
14:13	gfredericks	cemerick: it should if they deref the field into the CPU register while inside the locked context, no?
14:14	cemerick	s/is/provides
14:14	dnolen	seangrove: project.clj looks ok to me.
14:15	cemerick	gfredericks: don't ask me to understand what's happening at the register level w.r.t. the java memory model. :-)
14:15	cemerick	Lost in the mists of time, etc.
14:15	trptcolin	cemerick: no? it'd be less performant, but i guess i was under the impression that locking provided the same visibility guarantees
14:16	seangrove	dnolen: Doesn't seem like it's using the ./clojurescript in the directory though. I add a println and `(assert false) to parse-ns in cljs-sscce/clojurescript/src/clj/cljs/compiler.clj, lein cljsbuild auto still ran like normal
14:16	trptcolin	though at that point there's no win in using unsynchronized-mutable :)
14:16	gfredericks	I'm just trying to figure out "where" these cached values are. Unless java caches stuff in memory, which seems to duplicate what hardware caches already do, the only scenario I can think of is "cached in a register"
14:17	dnolen	seangrove: yeah so it's not picking up your local clojurescript. technomancy anything seem off about that project.clj? http://gist.github.com/4112913#file_project.clj
14:18	cemerick	trptcolin: object monitors are unrelated to the linearization (or not) of operations over a field
14:18	sw1nn	gfredericks: volatile ensures flushed to/from main memory in the order you see in the source code. if not volatile reads and write can happens in any order.
14:18	tomoj	but if it's volatile, we can't do (locking this (when foo (set! foo (f foo)))) ?
14:19	gfredericks	sw1nn: why can they happen in any order if we have the guarantees of a lock?
14:19	cemerick	no one does :-P
14:20	Frozenlock	Computers are like, you know, black magic stuff.
14:20	sw1nn	only threads interested in the lock get the guarantees. in fact if the jit can determine that there is no contention on the lock then the lock will be elided.
14:20	cemerick	gfredericks: a lock linearizes the entry/exit of threads within a scope; volatile linearizes memory reads and writes so that they are all visible to all threads equivalently.
14:21	sw1nn	this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1787450/how-do-i-understand-read-memory-barriers-and-volatile
14:21	sw1nn	seems like a good overview on cursory inspection
14:23	gfredericks	cemerick: so what I'm trying to figure out is, if all memory reads/writes happen in the locked block, why does that not give you linearized reads/writes?
14:24	gfredericks	or is the issue that readers probably aren't using the lock?
14:24	cemerick	Because the JIT or the CPU can reorder reads and writes whenever and however they like.
14:25	cemerick	(for unsynchronized mutable fields)
14:27	trptcolin	iirc, they are not allowed to do that with, for example, 2 synchronized blocks in java-land. there has to be a before/after ordering of the blocks as a group.
14:27	gfredericks	I can't think of any example of "reordering reads and writes" that doesn't violate all sorts of sanity expectations
14:27	trptcolin	but perhaps monitor-enter/monitor-exit is less of a guarantee than synchronized?
14:28	gfredericks	i.e., I don't know how to interpret that sentence without also concluding that I can't reason about single-threaded code anymore
14:29	dnolen	seangrove: another option would be to use checkouts, use :extra-classpath-dirs and create a dummy project.clj just to appease Lein 2.
14:29	flying_rhino	my connection froze. Anyway can you have typed vector that only accepts records of certain type?
14:29	seangrove	Happy to do that if it makes sense
14:30	dnolen	seangrove: I think that will work, checkouts was just complaining that it couldn't find a project.clj file. :extra-classpath-dirs is deprecated but I think will still take effect in Lein 2 previews.
14:30	sw1nn	the re-ordering appears consistent within a thread, so you don't ever have to worry single-threaded. the re-ordering can be done by the jit or as a artifact of the memory hierarchy.
14:30	dnolen	seangrove: all of this is very tedious to just test patches
14:31	sw1nn	Here are some 'surprising examples' in the java language spec: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jls/se7/html/jls-17.html#jls-17.4
14:31	seangrove	Well, we've been relying on cljs pretty heavily, and moving all of our in-house frontend code over to it, so happy to help out where I can
14:31	seangrove	Hopefully more substantially in the future, but for now, fine to be a tester
14:31	trptcolin	sw1nn: nice
14:32	tomoj	I use :source-paths and don't put it in checkouts
14:32	tomoj	I think the warning about project.clj is harmless though
14:32	dnolen	seangrove: ^
14:32	tomoj	since it just means the checkout bit of leiningen is ignoring it
14:32	dnolen	tomoj: but lein ignoring is a problem - it won't get put on the classpath.
14:33	gfredericks	sw1nn: thanks; now I have three tabs devoted to the issue :)
14:33	Foxboron	ohh, while we talk about java, 2 sec.
14:33	Foxboron	SOme java source:
14:33	Foxboron	http://kickjava.com/src/com/sun/java/swing/plaf/nimbus/InternalFrameInternalFrameTitlePaneInternalFrameTitlePaneMaximizeButtonPainter.java.htm
14:33	sw1nn	gfredericks: make sure you keep all tabs in sync :-/
14:34	seangrove	tomoj: Ok, looks like that worked, at least the assert cause lein cljsbuild to fail
14:34	tomoj	dnolen: it still will since you add it explicitly
14:34	tomoj	just the checkout bit of lein won't add it
14:34	seangrove	Ok, finally, testing with the patched clojurescript...
14:35	dnolen	tomoj: it did not work for me even w/ explicitly adding it - tested this quite a bit yesterday.
14:36	tomoj	hmm
14:36	tomoj	well, I just followed the steps and everything seems OK to me
14:37	tomoj	I see the same thing from the grep with a clean auto and after touch'ing b.cljs
14:37	tomoj	using the clojurescript submodule in that repo
14:37	seangrove	dnolen tomoj: Looks like the patch does work https://gist.github.com/c880c958adf7ba5f4a0d
14:37	dnolen	seangrove: excellent! thanks
14:38	seangrove	tomoj: I cloned clojurescript from the repo, applied the patch, used :source-paths, and seems like it's working
14:38	tomoj	I'm always nervous about what version of cljs I've actually got :/
14:38	seangrove	On that note, who decides what gets put into cljs' goog-closure.jar?
14:39	seangrove	I ask because I needed to use the Md5 function, and it wasn't included in the cljsbuild goog-closure.jar I was using, but it's been in the Closure library for over a year
14:39	seangrove	I then spent a day trying to figure out how to replace/manually update the goog-closure.jar, but seems like that's still a bit over my head right now
14:40	dnolen	seangrove: thx CLJS-282 resolved. so the solution was :source-paths and no checkouts dir right?
14:40	seangrove	dnolen: Correct
14:40	tomoj	(fwiw, leaving clojurescript in checkouts seemed to work here)
14:41	dnolen	tomoj: which preview of Lein 2, 10?
14:41	tomoj	yes
14:41	dnolen	tomoj: what OS?
14:41	tomoj	ubuntu
14:42	dnolen	tomoj: that might be it then dunno - unnali & I are OS X 10.7.5
14:42	dnolen	seangrove: you?
14:42	tomoj	`lein classpath` when you have :source-paths ["checkouts/clojurescript/clj" "checkouts/clojurescript/cljs"] doesn't include them?
14:42	dnolen	tomoj: I think we're talking past each other :) we weren't using :source-paths + checkouts
14:42	seangrove	lein 2 prev 10, osx 10.7.2
14:43	tomoj	oh, right
14:43	tomoj	I meant only that if you have cljs in source-paths explicitly, the fact that you put it in checkouts/ and lein complains doesn't matter, it still gets on the classpath
14:43	dnolen	tomoj: yes, this is good to know.
14:47	tomoj	so (swap-foo [this f] (locking this (when foo (set! foo (f foo))))) - would ^:volatile-mutable for foo be problematic here because we read-then-write? or does the locking make this not a concern?
14:48	tomoj	seems most of the stuff online talking about volatile assumes you're not also locking
14:49	dnolen	tomoj: seangrove: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Testing-patches, hopefully this looks ok?
14:50	seangrove	dnolen: Looks pretty easy, yeah
14:51	tomoj	yeah, except "git clone clojurescript into your project directory" (vs "into a directory in your project called checkouts" above) suggests what I actually do, which is :source-paths [... "clojurescript/src/clj" ...]. but that just avoids the warning
14:51	seangrove	dnolen: Mind helping me understand about the goog-closure.jar, where it comes from, and who decides which Closure functions get put in?
14:53	aperiodic	@
14:53	dnolen	tomoj: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Patches
14:53	dnolen	seangrove: goog-closure.jar is whatever the latest build of goog-closure.jar gets included w/ CLJS
14:55	Frozenlock	I have a uberjared webserver. Is there a typical way to let the user make and add its own plugins?
14:55	tomoj	dnolen: -yeah looks perfect
14:55	sw1nn	tomoj: the lock gets flushed to main memory, so if you are accessing the actual lock you don't need to worry about read/write, but if you are accessing anything else then you only have guarantees if those other things are protected by the same lock. In your swap-foo example, foo can presumably be updated outside a critical section, so not guaranteed to get the value when the lock was acquired
14:56	seangrove	dnolen: Just wondering why it would have some functions included, and others left out - is there any discussion of that?
14:56	tomoj	if you only set! foo inside locking, then "foo can presumably be updated outside a critical section" is false, yes?
14:57	Frozenlock	For lack of a better example, kind of like 'redmine'. There's the main app, but contributors can code new plugins and the users can choose to use them.
14:57	dnolen	seangrove: if things are left out that's a problem w/ goog-closure.jar, we don't leave things out
14:57	technomancy	Frozenlock: require+resolve with a convention around naming namespaces goes a long way.
14:57	dnolen	seangrove: goog-closure.jar seems to change quite a bit
14:58	technomancy	Frozenlock: I don't think it's possible to describe a convention for entry points in an application-agnostic way though; every application is going to be different
14:58	seangrove	dnolen: Is it what's released by google?
14:59	Chiron	Hi, I have a vector and a lazy seq . what is the output of (concat vector lazy-seq) ?
15:00	technomancy	I bet clojurebot knows!
15:00	Frozenlock	technomancy: Thanks!
15:01	Frozenlock	Wouldn't there be an issue finding the jars if they are not in the uberjared resources?
15:01	Chiron	still, it is hard to beat the human factor :)
15:01	dnolen	seangrove: yes
15:01	Bronsa	,(concat [1 2] (map inc (range 2)))
15:01	clojurebot	(1 2 1 2)
15:02	Bronsa	derp.
15:02	Bronsa	,(concat [1 2] (map dec (range 2)))
15:02	clojurebot	(1 2 -1 0)
15:02	alexyk	any La Clojure users here?
15:03	alexyk	today, this moment?
15:05	Chiron	alexyk: me but not a kung fu user
15:06	Chiron	I migrated to sublime text II
15:08	alexyk	Chiron: I actually am trying that too
15:08	alexyk	but nrepl breaks syntax highlighting, obviously string escaping is broken
15:08	seangrove	dnolen: Thanks
15:09	alexyk	Raynes poo-pooed it enough in his blog for me to get doubts
15:09	Raynes	alexyk: What did I poopoo?
15:09	Raynes	Oh, La Clojure?
15:09	alexyk	Chiron: what I need in IDE like IDEA is to be able to find a symbol by name
15:09	Raynes	Did I explicitly mention I didn't like it? I thought I just… disregarded it.
15:10	alexyk	Raynes: I mean it in a good way
15:10	alexyk	:)
15:10	Chiron	Eclipse CCW ?
15:10	Raynes	I only used La Clojure when it first came out.
15:10	Raynes	I don't know what shape it is currently in.
15:10	Raynes	Oh.
15:10	Raynes	Sublime Text!
15:10	Raynes	There we go, context.
15:10	Raynes	Yes, ST2 is pathetic for Clojure.
15:10	alexyk	Sublime Text II got doubts from Raynes
15:11	alexyk	the real question for IDEs is, I got a humongous project, I want all names indexed and I want to go to their definitions.
15:11	alexyk	Who can do that well?
15:11	Raynes	It's a good editor, just sucks for Clojure because the author obviously doesn't care much about Clojure support vs Ruby and such. Which is fine, since he isn't a Clojure guy.
15:12	alexyk	IDEA will break into jars and your mother's cupboard. It will decompile library jars if it needs to.
15:12	alexyk	I didn't see that doggedness from anything else.
15:13	znDuff	alexyk: Yes, IDEA does that, but the paredit mode available for it is a shadow of what's there on emacs
15:13	technomancy	jumping to definition is trivial to implement in any editor
15:13	technomancy	as is listing all loaded namespaces/vars
15:14	tgoossens	What would be a useful representation for 3x3 puzzle. Currently i'm thinking of [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] (most obvious i think)
15:14	tgoossens	but haven't figured out
15:14	tgoossens	how to write a function that does this:
15:14	tgoossens	http://pastebin.com/KnXsmzAw
15:14	znDuff	tgoossens: would you mind using a pastebin without all the ads? gist.github.com and refheap are both much better.
15:15	tgoossens	no probs!
15:15	tgoossens	didn't know github has that
15:16	tgoossens	gist seems ok to me :)
15:16	clojurebot	ClojureBooks is http://clojure.org/books
15:17	tgoossens	znDuff: for you ;) https://gist.github.com/4113588
15:17	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: your function would be easier to write given a map representation of your puzzle
15:17	tgoossens	hmmm
15:17	tgoossens	you mean
15:17	tgoossens	:0 1 :1 2 :3 3
15:17	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: e.g. {[0 0] 1, [0 1] 2, [0 2] 3, [1 0] 4, ... }
15:18	tgoossens	:x (number of the cell)
15:18	tgoossens	ah
15:18	tgoossens	mm
15:18	tgoossens	but the thing is now i'm using a less obvious representation. Just because 1 function is hard to write
15:18	tgoossens	translations
15:18	tgoossens	are very easy
15:19	tgoossens	in my original representation
15:19	alexyk	znDuff: canclojure-mode in emacs index everything with ctags or something?
15:19	sw1nn	tomoj: yes, if only accessed within locking it will be fine. jvm can re-order within a synchronized block, but not if it changes logic materially.
15:20	technomancy	alexyk: ctags is silly for languages that have a repl
15:20	technomancy	it's so much easier to just query the running process
15:21	alexyk	technomancy: I meant through some magic! :) I need to jump from a usage of a symbol to its def/defn, in emacs?
15:21	alexyk	how do we do that?
15:21	technomancy	sure; nrepl.el supports that
15:21	technomancy	took under an hour to write
15:22	alexyk	technomancy: how do I invoke it?
15:23	amalloy	M-. unless the nrepl guys were crazy
15:23	tgoossens	Wild_cat: i see how rotation gets easier. hmm
15:23	alexyk	what if I didn't yet load everything into repl?
15:24	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: translation isn't particularly hard in my representation either
15:24	tgoossens	Wild_cat: and maybe i just have to create a simple function that transforms that map into vector representation for human-readable printing
15:24	technomancy	alexyk: M-. for the symbol under point, C-u M-. to browse through the full namespace tree
15:24	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: yup.
15:24	technomancy	if it's not loaded it doesn't exist
15:24	tgoossens	Wild_cat: you're right it isn't hard
15:24	technomancy	loading everything is much easier than keeping a tags table up to date
15:25	alexyk	technomancy: so I have a src/ full of subduers full of *.clj; how do I feed it to nrepl to explore with M-. ?
15:25	alexyk	subfolders
15:25	technomancy	just make a loader namespace and do (require 'myproject.all)
15:25	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: it's often a good idea to consider alternate representations of your data set. Important lesson learned from the Game of Life example in the Clojure book.
15:26	Wild_Cat	(which, by the way, I'm enjoying so far -- congrats to cemerick et al.)
15:26	tgoossens	when i have the time i'll take a look at it :)
15:26	tgoossens	so far I have read "programming clojure"
15:26	tgoossens	Wild_cat: sometimes it is difficult to choose the right datastructure. Maybe because i try too much to represent to problem in a human readable data structure. Instead of more
15:26	Mr_Bond	I'm quite pleased with this one: #(last (take 2 (reverse %)))
15:26	jamii	RE: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/AsPs9ZonRPQ
15:27	Mr_Bond	4clojure problem 20
15:27	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: the trick there is that a vector of vectors isn't that readable to begin with. The perfect data structure would have been an actual 2D array, but Clojure (or Java) doesn't have that
15:27	jamii	I'm getting the same error (Failed to deploy artifacts: Could not transfer artifact strucjure:strucjure:pom:0.3.2 from/to clojars ... ReasonPhrase:Forbidden.)
15:27	jamii	It's not clear from that conversation what the fix is. Anyone know the answer?
15:28	brehaut	Mr_Bond: (comp last butlast)
15:28	Mr_Bond	brehaut: nice
15:28	Mr_Bond	nicer
15:28	jamii	I do have a gpg key set up in my profile and am prompted for the passphrase when pushing. I have been to the my clojars profile page and re-entered the key.
15:29	jamii	Not sure what to do now.
15:29	brehaut	Mr_Bond: free all the points!
15:29	amalloy	sometimes i wonder if brehaut has a clojure version of `pointless` hidden in his back pocket
15:29	tgoossens	Wild_Cat: mmyes
15:29	Wild_Cat	...I will concede, however, that for human readability a map is worse ;)
15:30	brehaut	lol
15:32	tgoossens	Wild_cat: it takes some effort to get used to thinking in data. 2 months ago my only experience was OO in java (and some php)
15:33	tgoossens	but i got tired of only learning OOP and JAVA at university that I searched for something fresh, new and totally different
15:33	tgoossens	clojure has got them all :p
15:33	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: Java's main inadequacy here is that it has no syntax for vectors or maps.
15:34	tgoossens	Wild_cat: maps syntax in guava makes life more bareable!
15:34	Wild_Cat	map literals are awesome.
15:34	madsy	Wild_Cat: What's just a syntax issue. What's important is the language semantics.
15:34	Wild_Cat	madsy: sure, but IMO, "just a syntax issue" issues quickly add up together.
15:34	madsy	+T-W
15:35	Wild_Cat	Java's semantics are unremarkable but not hostile. But its lack of literals for anything but arrays (which almost nobody uses in user code, with good reason) and strings hurts it a lot.
15:36	madsy	Wild_Cat: I think the single biggest flaw of Java is the dependency on class/interface hierarchies, with no way to partially override.
15:36	TimMc	Wild_Cat: I'd like to quibble with the statement "main" inadequacy.
15:36	madsy	Want to partially override an interface? You have to define every method.
15:36	Wild_Cat	likewise, == versus .equals. There's a lot of places where Java sacrificed its syntax by dedicating it to features nobody uses.
15:36	tgoossens	in java i just sometimes have de need for some kind of "function" and I have nowhere to put it really.
15:36	TimMc	madsy: Only if you want a concrete class.
15:37	Wild_Cat	TimMc: main but far from only ;)
15:38	TimMc	The type system is completely fucked, for one.
15:38	Wild_Cat	yeah, fair enough.
15:38	TimMc	"Let's spend all this effort getting a safe typechecker and completely ignore nulls and our insane checked exception nonsense."
15:39	Wild_Cat	oh, man, I forgot about checked exceptions.
15:39	Wild_Cat	there's also the generics that are horribly implemented.
15:39	tgoossens	yes
15:39	tgoossens	f*cking type erasure
15:40	brehaut	tgoossens: type erasure lets clojure be the language it is
15:40	TimMc	James Iry wrote a nice little bit of code that allows you to throw checked exceptions in Java as if they are unchecked.
15:41	pjstadig	TimMc: and the only reason James' code worked is because of generics erasure
15:41	tgoossens	brehaut: i'm talking about idiomatic java code. Not clojure
15:41	TimMc	A coworker and I stared at it for a while and finally figured out that it works because of the Throwable hierarchy.
15:42	Wild_Cat	also, I hate a lot of the stdlib's design. Just like C++'s was "hey, I have that new toy called operator overloading, let's use it everywhere!", Java's stdlib is "overdose of the Decorator pattern."
15:42	TimMc	pjstadig: Actually, he pointed out that if you had two Throwable roots (CheckedException, UncheckedException) then it would be typesafe.
15:42	pjstadig	brehaut: right, if generics were reified, then clojure would have a bad time
15:42	Wild_Cat	why a high-level language running on a VM requires the user to manually buffer everything, I may never know.
15:42	brehaut	pjstadig: exactly
15:43	tgoossens	brehaut: oh. you mean how clojure is created?
15:43	TimMc	brehaut: Can you expand on that?
15:43	Wild_Cat	interesting -- why is that?
15:45	tgoossens	Wild_cat: "why a high-level language running on a VM requires the user to manually buffer everything" what do you mean with that?
15:46	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: the fact that FileWriter/FileReader is unbuffered and has to be explicitly wrapped in a BufferedWriter/BufferedReader.
15:46	Wild_Cat	(which, depending on what you do with your code, may result in a single reader/writer being wrapped in several nested buffers)
15:47	tgoossens	oh. that seems a bit strange
15:47	Wild_Cat	every other language I know, when it gives you the choice between buffered/unbuffered (some don't, and those force buffering on you), does it with a flag in the open call, and always default to buffered when available.
15:48	tgoossens	so what woudl have been better is : an interface IFileWriter. and a class FileWriter and a class BufferFileWriter
15:48	tgoossens	instead of wrapping
15:48	tgoossens	is that what you are saying?
15:48	TimMc	and then you hand that (Buffered)Writer to someone else and they wrap it in a BufferedWriter...
15:49	Wild_Cat	TimMc: exactly.
15:49	tgoossens	TimMc: that seems f*cked up :p
15:49	Wild_Cat	tgoossens: no, just have FileWriter's constructor take a "buffered" argument that defaults to true, and get rid of an extra and unnecessary level of interface inheritance.
15:49	Wild_Cat	Lemmy knows Java's class/interface hierarchy is already more than deep enough
15:49	amalloy	Wild_Cat: and SocketWriter? and ZipFileWriter? and...?
15:50	amalloy	putting the buffering functionality in a single place is better than in N places. java.io is a mess, but what you propose is not better
15:50	tgoossens	i still think that in java -idiomatically- it is the good to do interface inheritance
15:50	tgoossens	(without "the")
15:51	Wild_Cat	amalloy: frankly, I'd just get rid of the flag and leave buffering to whatever the underlying OS does (enabled almost everywhere).
15:51	Wild_Cat	amalloy: besides, ZipFileWriter probably delegates most of its raw reading functionality to FileWriter anyway.
15:52	Wild_Cat	(leading to the interesting question, does it instantiate a BufferedWriter to write to the actual file? And can you even control that?)
15:55	amalloy	i don't know, i just made up zipfilewriter
15:56	amalloy	in reality it doesn't exist; there's some ZipStream that wraps an existing stream
15:56	TimMc	It wouldn't be a Writer.
16:03	brehaut	TimMc: i cant find the article sorry.
16:10	TimMc	brehaut: This doesn't help: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3812644/how-does-types-erasure-help-clojure-exist
16:10	TimMc	A strange question.
16:11	brehaut	wow yeah
16:13	TimMc	aaaaagh fuck you google
16:13	TimMc	I meant "erasure", not "erasing".
16:14	brehaut	TimMc: my understand is that reified generics become quite pervasive, and anywhere clojure builds ontop of a java level abstract (frinstance, collections API, runnable, etc), there would need to be explicit type parameters provided
16:14	brehaut	if clojure were less interested in interop, it wouldnt be such a problem
16:14	TimMc	I see.
16:14	TimMc	So Clojure would be perfectly compatible with Java v1.4.
16:15	TimMc	it's just that Java v1.5 would look entirely different
16:15	brehaut	yeah i guess so
16:16	TimMc	as opposed to Clojure taking special advantage of type erasure.
16:17	brehaut	well, it uses Object everywhere
16:17	brehaut	which kinda is
16:17	TimMc	That's like saying that Java v1.4 makes use of type erasure. :-P
16:17	brehaut	ha
16:20	brehaut	TimMc: unfortunately my memory is woolly on specifics
16:21	brehaut	so ive only got the handwavey explainations available
16:32	ivan	anyone like some SLOC counter that doesn't ignore .clj files? tempted to write my own
16:34	amalloy	just use cloc
16:40	bbloom	yeah, i add languages to my cloc.def all the time
16:40	danielneal	Hello! I'm new to IRC. Just wondering - is there a way of listing the callers of a function when using nrepl/emacs/clojure?
16:45	vijaykiran	danielneal: if you are using swank - "C-c C-w c: List all callers of a given function"
16:45	vijaykiran	not sure if it works with nrepl though
16:47	amalloy	does it even work with swank? i didn't think anyone had implemented the who-* family
16:51	ivan	amalloy: thanks. though my centos refuses to install it. I'll take up with them.
16:53	danielneal	interesting - I just moved away from swank to nrepl as it looked like that's the way things were going
16:53	ambrosebs	Is there a recommended way to extend the special forms in CLJS? This is my current hack https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure/blob/master/src/typed/check_cljs.clj#L9
16:57	hiredman	ambrosebs: I would be surpised if there ever was a "recommended" way to do that
16:57	hiredman	but that approach seems fine, I might suggest alter-var-root + union
17:02	ivan	so an untyped language usually running on a typed VM is upgraded to be a typed language, compiled to untyped JS, run through a compiler that mixes typed code with untyped CLJS to become untyped JS, and run through V8 which creates hidden classes
17:06	danielneal	thanks vijaykiran
17:07	danielneal	hopefully someone clever will implement a who-calls for nrepl then
17:07	danielneal	just wanted to check whether it existed somewhere already
17:08	dysinger	where does one go for the how-to on nrepl replacement of slime/swank in emacs?
17:13	danielneal	dysinger: I just installed nrepl.el, and made sure I was using lein 2
17:14	dysinger	k
17:14	danielneal	then nrepl-jack-in from a clojure buffer to get it going
17:15	danielneal	I'd been putting it off for months...
17:15	dysinger	so it doesn't conflict or compete with swank it sounds like
17:15	danielneal	it didn't seem to in my case
17:15	dysinger	awesome
17:15	danielneal	it was the upgrade to lein2 that was the most important bit
17:15	danielneal	the one thing I haven't got completely configured yet is ac-nrepl
17:17	hiredman	nrepl.el is a completely new code base
17:17	hiredman	so any slime customizations and key bindings may or may not work
17:18	hiredman	nrepl.el turns on nrepl-interaction-mode for clojure-mode buffers, which does break some slime keybindings (if you are using slime for some projects, and nrepl for others)
17:24	dysinger	I can't even get my emacs to load after adding it
17:24	dysinger	popup.rcp: (error "Variable binding depth exceeds max-specpdl-size")
17:24	dysinger	(using el-get)
17:28	mammoth	how fast is accessing vectors and hash tables
17:28	mammoth	?
17:29	znDuff	mammoth: vectors are log32n for lookup
17:30	mammoth	danke
17:30	gfredericks	vectors are "good" for lookup
17:30	znDuff	mammoth: ...if you're curious, you should be able to find a video of one of Bagwell's conj talks (or his paper).
17:30	mammoth	thanks
17:45	dysinger	derp. I had a loop in my emacs dependencies. all fixed.
17:45	devn	go aperiodic
17:45	devn	oops... :\
17:46	flying_rhino	is it possible to to give type to vector so it can only take one type of object?
17:46	devn	flying_rhino: you could use pre or post, or validate with atoms
17:47	flying_rhino	I was thinking more about speed (I assumed that yped vectors could be faster)
17:47	flying_rhino	*typed
17:47	aperiodic	i'm going as fast as i can! ;)
17:48	gtrak	flying_rhino: arrays?
17:48	flying_rhino	gtrak: i guess that's an option too
17:48	gtrak	there is no slowness based on type, since the vector only stores a reference
17:49	flying_rhino	so it doesn't really matter?
17:49	flying_rhino	good to know
17:50	dnolen	flying_rhino: vectors are pretty fast. you have gvecs which can be more memory efficient since you can specify their contents, but there's no support yet to work w/ their contents w/o boxing.
17:50	flying_rhino	okay
17:58	Foxboron	Reading "The joy of clojure". While reading i got the image of me talking to a monk about why he choosed his way of life, how he communicates with the world and life
17:58	Foxboron	then i started thinking back on python, and i saw it like the nazi regime O.o
17:58	mammoth	Steve Yegge seems grumpy about Clojure for some reason.
17:58	tomoj	does clojure-mode indent "(assoc m\n k v\n k v)" in a manner in violation of http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt ?
17:58	amalloy	i doubt if python is disproportionately popular with nazis
17:59	Foxboron	hahaha
17:59	znDuff	Foxboron: Heh. I can certainly see Python as a backlash against TIMTOWTDI, but then, I don't think that was a bad approach.
17:59	amalloy	tomoj: yes, it's a bizarre choice for clojure-mode to make
17:59	mammoth	I wonder if his reason are any good
17:59	Foxboron	I started a threat on reddit once. The topic was to see who used different "hacks"
17:59	znDuff	mammoth: You're a few months late to that flamewar.
17:59	Foxboron	It was downvotes to hell and up again
17:59	znDuff	mammoth: short form: The consensus is that his reasons are not, in fact, good ones.
17:59	mammoth	znDuff: I am not interested in flame
18:00	Foxboron	The overall conservatism of the python community is disturbing tbh
18:00	gtrak	i think yegge likes python though
18:00	mammoth	znDuff: but I can't help but wonder if there is a grain of truth in what he says
18:00	gtrak	"Python, Common Lisp, Smalltalk/Squeak: Liberal"
18:01	Foxboron	gtrak, liberal as in?
18:01	Foxboron	The community?
18:01	znDuff	Foxboron: You'd have to read Yegge's essay -- it provides the context for that.
18:01	Foxboron	ah, ill look it up then.
18:01	gtrak	Foxboron: he has a really silly value-judgment thing... it's inflammatory and makes no sense
18:01	technomancy	liberal as in "able to get people in a seething rage"
18:01	gtrak	https://plus.google.com/u/0/110981030061712822816/posts/KaSKeg4vQtz
18:02	gtrak	python's has duck-typing, but people look at you funny and say "that's not pythonic"
18:02	znDuff	mammoth: ...classifying the Clojure community as staunchly conservative because we advise against using macros more than necessary struck me as more than a bit silly -- the pitfalls of macro overuse are pretty darned easy to run into in practice; it's not some ideological purity thing.
18:03	Foxboron	Wait
18:03	Sgeo	"necessary" seems a bit harsh
18:03	Foxboron	How can he atall say Python is liberal?
18:03	technomancy	Foxboron: by having a completely useless definition of his terms?
18:03	Sgeo	If macros are strictly speaking never necessary...
18:03	gtrak	to his definition...
18:04	Foxboron	technomancy, i choose to believe he have an ounch of brain
18:04	gtrak	it's more liberal than java..
18:04	mammoth	but fanaticism of clojure people is a little distrubing sometimes. What's so wrong about some state? While I love focus on multicore and stuff, I don't think clojure should deliberately put roadblocks on procedural. Macros are never necesary but they are great way to reduce bloat and bloat is bad.
18:04	technomancy	Foxboron: sure, you have to be clever to troll that hard
18:04	technomancy	he's definitely a good writer, and he knows it
18:04	technomancy	and he's using it to mess with people he doesn't like
18:04	Foxboron	hm
18:04	Sgeo	What does he classify Tcl as?
18:05	Foxboron	Its not listed
18:05	mammoth	bottom line there is some truth in what he says and clojure would benefit for some criticism
18:05	Sgeo	Clojure would benefit from sensible criticism.
18:05	brehaut	complete set of things that do not benefit from some criticism: #{}
18:05	gtrak	mammoth: state is a necessary evil, because we don't have infinite memory. It's easier to reason about your program if you can step through every state change.
18:06	gtrak	it should be minimized or scoped well
18:06	gtrak	no one's really up in arms about that
18:07	gtrak	it just feels wrong to people that haven't used clojure before
18:07	gtrak	for like a week
18:07	gtrak	like python's indentation
18:08	gtrak	or java's 'all member functions are virtual'
18:08	flying_rhino	.
18:08	gtrak	to C++ guys
18:08	gfredericks	brehaut: I don't know how the empty set could benefit from criticism so maybe you ought to say #{#{}}?
18:08	Sgeo	"there was a key presenter doing a talk on how Macros were basically harmful and should be avoided in modern Clojure code."
18:08	Sgeo	Did that actually happen, or was it "keep use of macros tasteful"
18:09	gfredericks	that wasn't the point really
18:09	flying_rhino	I switched username becuase my connection died, I am mammoth.
18:09	gtrak	it didn't actually happen, and the guy in question writes a ton of macros
18:09	technomancy	he didn't actually watch the video
18:09	gfredericks	it was about macros not being composable and etc
18:09	gfredericks	so yes it was just "keep use of macros tasteful"
18:09	ivan	he's talking about https://startpage.com/do/search?q=dsls%20not%20macros
18:09	flying_rhino	look I don't think Clojure is all that conservative. But there is one thing
18:10	Foxboron	wait
18:10	Sgeo	We should make a language with a macro-like mechanism that's composable
18:10	Foxboron	Yegge actually rates them conservative to liberal based on what the lang actually got
18:10	Foxboron	thats retarded D:
18:11	gfredericks	Sgeo: how would that work?
18:11	TimMc	On a rating scale and valuation he invented.
18:11	brehaut	Sgeo: pure functions and rewrite rules!
18:11	flying_rhino	I believe Clojure should maybe support old fashioned procedural programming and some old fashioned mutable vars. Because the thing is, all those power tools it has are nice and sometimes necessary, but but what if something you are making DOESN'T require multicore?
18:12	gtrak	flying_rhino: it does that stuff just fine
18:12	Sgeo	gfredericks, maybe something like what Kernel does, although I don't know if that's composable. Or like Tcl does, but same.
18:12	znDuff	flying_rhino: first, the functionality is already there.
18:12	mrowe	flying_rhino: then don't use clojure
18:12	flying_rhino	glibly stating that state=evil is what can be interpreted as fanaticism
18:12	Sgeo	flying_rhino, it has support for mutable vars
18:12	Foxboron	"However, I eventually learned that the Clojure community is extremely conservative. That is is pretty unusual for a Lisp dialect."
18:12	Foxboron	Like really
18:12	Foxboron	You can't base a language as "conservative" just because it choose to have x y and z features
18:13	gfredericks	GOTO has its place too right
18:13	Sgeo	,(with-local-vars [a 1 b 2] (var-set a 3) (var-get a))
18:13	clojurebot	3
18:13	znDuff	flying_rhino: second, it's not all about multicore development -- a good chunk of the benefits come from having better tools to use in reasoning about state.
18:13	Foxboron	you gotta base that on philosophy and the state of the community ._.
18:13	gfredericks	all languages should have GOTO just in case
18:13	gtrak	mrowe: I'm not sure I like the idea of 'don't use clojure if you're wrong about it'. I prefer people to stop thinking wrong things.
18:13	Foxboron	gfredericks: i don't like raptors
18:13	brehaut	gfredericks: you kids and your degenerate continuations
18:13	dnolen	I hate switching Clojure tools
18:14	mrowe	gtrak: I was meaning that if you want a procedural language with easily mutable data structures, maybe another language would be more suited to your task
18:14	dnolen	anybody else encountered the nrepl C-c C-K ClassFormatError?
18:14	mrowe	gtrak: but yes, one of the big advantages of using clojure is learning to think in new ways
18:14	flying_rhino	znDuff: is it? Is there example of small p[rogram made in clojure in procedural way? At least as an example of what not to do?
18:14	gtrak	mrowe: yea, I guess so. java-like stuff in clojure for me isn't hard because of mutability, it's hard because of tooling, imo.
18:14	Foxboron	Apparently Yegges says most of the Clojure community comes from Haskell
18:15	mrowe	but if people are going to keep wishing "if only clojure had $convential_language_feature_x"...
18:15	amalloy	why are we still talking about yegge?
18:15	Foxboron	amalloy, lol sorry.
18:15	znDuff	flying_rhino: What do you need an example for? What part isn't obivous?
18:15	Foxboron	I am commenting as i read along :P
18:17	znDuff	flying_rhino: ...I mean, everything you need is right there on the clojure cheatsheet, and most of it is used quite frequently when doing interop code.
18:17	flying_rhino	znDuff: well, where are those mutable vars for one? Please don't be annoyed with me. I do like advanced features of clojure, it just feels like overengeenering for some stuff.
18:17	znDuff	flying_rhino: atoms, and/or dynamic Vars.
18:17	znDuff	flying_rhino: next question?
18:17	znDuff	(preferably, atoms)
18:18	flying_rhino	so you can basically create python like code with atoms (if you wanted to) ?
18:18	znDuff	flying_rhino: It'd be silly, but you could.
18:18	Foxboron	Question, i read a place that "loop-recur" is a newbie trap, what would the other option be?
18:19	mrowe	flying_rhino: or you could just use python :)
18:19	brehaut	Foxboron: well, for primative recursion, 'reduce'
18:19	flying_rhino	znDuff: you just made this rhinoceros happy :)
18:19	Foxboron	brehaut, so i got a feeling i should sit down with map,filter and reduce and get a good grasp of that?
18:20	brehaut	Foxboron: yes
18:20	amalloy	IMO usually lazy sequences, not reduce, are usually a better thing to translate a new clojurer's loop/recur to
18:20	flying_rhino	mrowe: what if part of your app needs that aproach but you need multicore somewhere else, and you want to keep everything under JVM?
18:20	mefisto	znDuff: hey, where is that cheatsheet?
18:20	znDuff	mefisto: http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
18:20	flying_rhino	mrowe: my point is that deliberately locking lisp dialect to one scheme isn't wise.
18:21	flying_rhino	does ANYONE get my point ??
18:21	lazybot	flying_rhino: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
18:21	amalloy	(inc lazybot)
18:21	lazybot	⇒ 9
18:21	dnolen	flying_rhino: I don't think you've used Clojure long enough to have an informed opinion about the matter.
18:22	mrowe	flying_rhino: there are already other jvm languages that are mutable by default and have good threading support (e.g. er, java)
18:22	amalloy	dnolen: i haven't tried nrepl, but i've been on lein2 for ages. preview10 works well, although latest master doesn't
18:23	flying_rhino	mrowe: yeah but lack of bloat due to macros is another nice feature of clojure that java (and other jvm langs) lacks. And imho big selling point of lisp is that it is flexible.
18:23	Foxboron	i also had luck with the preview10 where everything else failed
18:24	flying_rhino	mrowe: all in all procedural should not be mocked
18:24	brehaut	flying_rhino: haskellers (in particular) have long since shown that procedural is a special case of function calls
18:25	mefisto	thanks!
18:25	brehaut	also scheme i guess, though less obviously
18:25	mrowe	flying_rhino: have you read SICP? stepping back and thinking about other models of computation than procedural may give you some insight
18:26	mammoth	brehaut: look we are all turing complete here. My point is that one should always pick most straightforward practical approach.
18:26	mammoth	I hate my ISP
18:27	mammoth	everything not straightforward is masturbation in my opinion. Clojure is straightforward for multicore.
18:27	Sgeo	flying_rhino, have you considered trying Common Lisp?
18:28	gtrak	mammoth: ... that's very short-sighted
18:28	brehaut	mammoth: go read http://dave.fayr.am/posts/2012-10-4-finding-fizzbuzz.html and come back
18:28	gtrak	just because it's designed for multicore doesn't mean it's worse at other things
18:28	Foxboron	When it comes to language discussion, i enjoy what the father of Ruby said
18:28	Foxboron	"Ruby is the perfect language for me, not everyone else."
18:28	Sgeo	I have a bit of a Haskell background, I really like the immutability, even if I'm not doing multithreading
18:29	Sgeo	(inc aperiodic)
18:29	lazybot	⇒ 5
18:29	brehaut	hells yes
18:29	mammoth	Sgeo: I figured it would be easier to improve procedural in Clojure than immutable in Common Lisp.
18:29	Sgeo	You could easily make a Common Lisp macro to make an immutable CLOS class...
18:29	Sgeo	I've done it
18:29	gtrak	mammoth: I wrote something over the weekend, kind of a troll, but relevant :-): https://github.com/gtrak/knr/blob/master/src/knr/core.clj
18:30	alindeman	Turing complete is not hard to achieve ;) It's kinda the point
18:30	alindeman	gtrak: Niiiice
18:30	gtrak	you can see where I'm going with this: (let-free [myarray (-> :complex sizeof (* 16) malloc)]....
18:30	scriptor	alindeman: it's more that people insist just because two languages are turing complete they're essentially the same
18:31	Foxboron	baw.....gtrak looking at that code makes me wanna understand it :c
18:31	alindeman	scriptor: Ah
18:31	gtrak	it's the most mutable of codes
18:31	Sgeo	You can do everything with COBOL that you can do in Clojure!
18:32	bjorkintosh	uh oh.
18:32	Foxboron	You can do everything CLojure do in Assembler
18:32	Foxboron	But i don't think anyone wanna do that?
18:32	bjorkintosh	did i accidentally join #trollol?
18:33	scriptor	Foxboron: volunteering to build us a ClojureMachine?
18:33	Sgeo	bjorkintosh, people were mentioning the silliness of saying "Well, all these languages are TC, therefore they're all alike"
18:33	gtrak	my argument's that lisps ease of up/down abstraction makes it more moot than it would for other languages
18:34	Foxboron	scriptor, it was a response to sgeo :)
18:34	scriptor	I know, but I still think you should :p
18:34	Foxboron	Well
18:34	flying_rhino	scriptor: I do not insist that all languages are the same. All I am saying that since turing completeness makes everythiong possible in every language, practicality should win out. And immutability, although great at many places, is not ALWAYS the most practical thing
18:34	gtrak	think of what that low-level code would look like in java
18:34	Foxboron	scriptor, my experience of "low-level" programming goes as far down as "high-level" languages go.
18:35	Foxboron	Aka, none.
18:35	Foxboron	^^
18:35	bjorkintosh	you guys are stuck in a frigging ivory tower. let's hear you make these arguments on a shop floor... what wins out? the right tool for the right job. period.
18:35	bjorkintosh	nothing else matters.
18:35	scriptor	flying_rhino: you could reverse that statement somewhat, couldn't you? While mutability may be practical sometimes, it's not always the most practical thing
18:35	scriptor	it's just a matter of what you're working on
18:35	flying_rhino	scriptor: ofcourse
18:35	flying_rhino	scriptor: that's why Clojure should have both
18:36	mefisto	clojure has mutability... what's the issue?
18:36	znDuff	flying_rhino: if you want a language that does everything, go have fun with Scala
18:36	znDuff	flying_rhino: ...you'll find it to be an utter mess.
18:36	znDuff	flying_rhino: trying to be too many things to too many people leads to a disorganized mess.
18:36	gtrak	it has more support for mutability than java. You can code event handlers and things to state change.
18:38	flying_rhino	mefisto: then why am I laughed at when I ask people to show me an example of mutable code in clojure?
18:38	gtrak	they like = more than reset! ?
18:38	flying_rhino	znDuff: well python isn't utter mess. Scala is but I don't think it is due to existance of mutability
18:39	znDuff	flying_rhino: Python isn't a mess because it's written by one person at the helm with a consistent design vision and purpose... much like Clojure.
18:40	brehaut	flying_rhino: nobody is laughing at you. they are telling you that its not the idiomatic way in clojure
18:40	znDuff	flying_rhino: Python explicitly _rejects_ trying to support all workflows and styles -- deciding that Perl was completely wrong in following TIMTOWTDI was really the Big Idea behind it, in my eyes.
18:40	mefisto	flying_rhino: it's not idiomatic
18:41	flying_rhino	mefisto: I would still like to see that not-idiomatic code.
18:41	flying_rhino	for the lulz
18:41	Foxboron	People should have a more relaxed relationship with "non-idiomatic" code
18:41	mefisto	flying_rhino: you can abuse things like atoms or do it with java classes. I don't have a code example handy
18:42	gtrak	flying_rhino: https://gist.github.com/ec9043e47789bc11d662
18:42	Foxboron	"Its not idiomatic! i refuse to code!"
18:42	bbloom	there is also the set! form
18:42	flying_rhino	gtrak: thanks! What was so hard about this?
18:43	gtrak	nothing?
18:43	clojurebot	@ has nothing to do with whether sth is evaluated or not
18:43	bbloom	and i think you'd be surprised at how far you can push immutability
18:43	bbloom	:-)
18:43	brehaut	Foxboron: writing non-idiomatic code is fine, if you already create idiomatic normally. writing sensible python in clojure is a silly
18:43	Foxboron	brehaut, sounds like what i am doing now, but i am however a newb, so i feel i can be excused on that ^^
18:44	gtrak	flying_rhino: obviously we want to discourage unidiomatic code to people who are learning the language.
18:44	flying_rhino	brehaut: nothing is silly if it solves certain problem the best.
18:44	bbloom	the more clojure i write, the harder i find it to think in the presence of mutation in other languages… it's made me deeply aware of all the complexities of state. now it's like hearing a voice that i can't silence that says "somebody is gonna mutate that and fuck you up"
18:44	mefisto	Foxboron: I think clojure's approach to idiomatic code is somewhat similar to the notion of fate in the webcomic erfworld... you can fight against it, but you will just end up taking a more painful path to the same place
18:45	gtrak	if you know better, go ahead, but you should make sure you know it all the way before doing it wrong out of habit
18:45	Foxboron	mefisto, what if drop the fighting and live in harmony?
18:45	Foxboron	if we drop*
18:46	mefisto	there's no "we"... the idea is, you will just end up fighting against the language and yourself ;)
18:47	brehaut	flying_rhino: writing python code in clojure is silly.
18:47	brehaut	flying_rhino: by definition, its not solving the problem best
18:47	Foxboron	oh btw, while i still remember it
18:47	Foxboron	Anyone got any books/sources about thinking in a functional language?
18:47	bbloom	if you really want to do a lot of mutation, maybe for perf or what not, write some java
18:48	bbloom	and that's not a joke
18:48	Foxboron	kinda stuck with the OO kind of doing stuff, and its a bit anyoing.
18:48	bbloom	i mean seriously: write some java! that's what it's there for. you can call it easily from clojure
18:48	mrowe	Foxboron: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
18:48	dnolen	cemerick: so does nrepl still blow up if given a large set of contents?
18:48	mefisto	Foxboron: clojure in action from manning, or for the purest of pure functional heroin take a look at http://learnyouahaskell.com/
18:49	gtrak	bbloom: I've worked longer in java, but I find it to be more of a hassle to write a bit of java than to fight through java interop in clojure.
18:49	mrowe	Foxboron: also, Brian Marick's "FP for OOP programmers" is not bad: https://leanpub.com/fp-oo
18:49	bbloom	Foxboron: I'll second SICP. good stuff!
18:49	Foxboron	mefisto, not looking for a new lang ;P
18:49	mammoth	brehaut: I was using it as an example of simple pragmatic language.
18:50	Sgeo	Can that FP for OOP programmers thing teach an FP programmer OOP?
18:50	Sgeo	By showing examples in the reverse?
18:50	ChongLi	Sgeo: SICP includes some stuff on OOP
18:50	Foxboron	Sgeo, OOP is cake....
18:50	mefisto	Foxboron: I learned some haskell first and found it easier to move to clojure from there. to really immerse yourself in functional stuff I think haskell is more direct
18:50	Sgeo	Although I think I still rely on state too much
18:50	ChongLi	but they start from first principles
18:51	ChongLi	which may actually teach you more about OOP
18:51	ChongLi	(from a different angle)
18:51	Sgeo	I've read a bit of Let over Lambda
18:51	Foxboron	mefisto, hahahahaa. I got a friend doing a CMS in Haskell atm :) But i'll do it if i get some time!
18:51	ChongLi	I really love how SICP does it
18:51	mefisto	a CMS in haskell? this I'd like to see
18:51	ChongLi	they start off with pure functions and teach you the great beauty of the substitution model
18:51	Foxboron	mefisto, 2 sec then.
18:51	Sgeo	I started on SICP a while ago, but sort of paused for a long while
18:51	ChongLi	and then they tear that down when they introduce assignment
18:52	ChongLi	it's actually quite traumatic
18:52	Foxboron	mefisto: https://github.com/Tehnix/HsCMS
18:52	Foxboron	mefisto: running on codetalk.io atm
18:52	mefisto	thanks!
18:52	Foxboron	NP :)
18:52	tufflax	Is Let Over Lambda good?
18:54	hcumberdale	hi
18:54	tufflax	hi there
18:57	hcumberdale	how can I access a atom from another thread?
18:59	crease	hcumberdale: as you normally would, I think
18:59	amalloy	tufflax: it's all right
19:00	mammoth	brehaut: are you dave fayr ?
19:00	brehaut	mammoth: no
19:01	amalloy	nothing like as good as sicp
19:01	mammoth	well it was nice read
19:01	mammoth	thanks
19:01	tufflax	As far as I've understood (without reading LOL) they have different goals :p
19:01	mammoth	thanks for pointing me to it, I mean
19:01	tufflax	SICP and LOL that is
19:02	amalloy	indeed. i think LOL's goal is to tell you that common lisp is the only lisp worth using
19:02	tufflax	hehe
19:02	amalloy	along the way he definitely says some interesting things
19:03	brehaut	mammoth: no problem. i think its a really good article
19:03	brehaut	mammoth: a great examination of why an initially straightforward looking solution is sub optimal, and how a 'more complex' solution is actually easier to understand
19:04	mammoth	brehaut: I just don't think it changed my point much. Look, I like functional. If I didn't I wouldn't be here. I just think exclusion of other styles is bad. I don't want to start flame again but that was my point.
19:04	abp	hell-o
19:05	technomancy	steve? is that you?
19:05	technomancy	the whole point of FP is to prevent you from doing harmful things
19:05	technomancy	just like the point of garbage collection is to prevent you from making memory allocation mistakes
19:06	mammoth	brehaut: take a look at his ruby example. It uses functions in vectors (which I like, very much) but is still mutable. In other words it is potent mix of functional and procedural.
19:07	brehaut	mammoth: thats what i consider a potent mix of shooting myself in the foot in 6 months time ;)
19:07	abp	What is the best approach to build functional graphs? I use clojure.tools.namespace.dependency presently, which gives me a structure like #Graph{:dependencies {:b #{:a}}, :dependents {:a #{:b}}} Would using something zippable be "better"?
19:09	brehaut	mammoth: i (like i suspect a lot of clojure programmers) am fine with small, carefully applied piece of mutability as long as carefully demarcated and has clear access semantics
19:09	abp	I'm ultra afraid of mutable things now. :x
19:10	brehaut	apb: i wouldnt watch John Carpenters The Thing then
19:10	flying_rhino	I like when main thread in program uses mostly mutable data (but still uses other functional stuff like functions as arguments), but it spawns side threads that work on immutable data.
19:11	abp	brehaut: I have watch it. It's our society in terms of objects. :D
19:11	Foxboron	and there i thank Clojure for another night with...... 5 hours of sleep.
19:11	Foxboron	Night peeps :) Remember to sleep and save yer beards ^^
19:11	abp	brehaut: Thanks for help shaping this metaphor.
19:13	abp	OOP, you know, it's like everbody running around, heavily shifting looks and skin, everything! Wait, have you watched Carpenters The Thing?
19:15	brehaut	This summer, coming to a cinema near you: John von Neumann's The Thing
19:15	tufflax	:)
19:19	ChongLi	how about escher's metacircular evaluator?
19:56	devn	Is there a way to limit the buffer length of a slime repl in emacs so it doesn't choke if it wants to print, say, 10,000 lines?
19:57	devn	i know about (set! print-length ...) and so on, but I have an open buffer and I'm doing some poor man's debugging and want to stop it from choking.
19:57	CaptainDerp	Hi, how do i cleanly swap an atom within a map that is not an atom?
19:57	tomoj	the only think I know is to be careful what I print :(. I think nrepl mostly fixes the problem
19:58	devn	tomoj: that's not a luxury I have in this case
19:58	CaptainDerp	(swap! theMap assoc key val) swaps the val within a map that IS an atom
19:58	devn	I know what's going to print. It's 280,000 strings.
19:58	CaptainDerp	but i do not want restriction on the map itself (so i do not want to make it an atom)
19:59	brehaut	CaptainDerp: so you have (let [the-map {:atom (atom 1)}] … )
19:59	brehaut	?
20:00	brehaut	,(let [the-map {:atom (atom 1)}] (swap! (:atom the-map) inc))
20:00	clojurebot	2
20:00	devn	tomoj: right now I just am hitting C-c M-o every 2000 lines or so, but that is getting...ridiculous.
20:00	CaptainDerp	more like (let [the-map {"123" (atom 1)}]
20:01	CaptainDerp	(swap! ("123" the-map) inc)) like that?
20:01	brehaut	,(let [the-map {"abc" (atom 1)}] (swap! (the-map "abc") inc))
20:01	clojurebot	2
20:02	brehaut	keywords are functions of maps, but strings are not. but maps are functions of their keys
20:02	CaptainDerp	ok awesome
20:02	CaptainDerp	thanks
20:03	CaptainDerp	... also I do not want the map to be an atom because I am afriad that this will restrict access to mapped values.
20:03	CaptainDerp	Am i right in this justification and by never changing the map itself and only the atoms refereneced i should be fine right?
20:04	brehaut	i guess. you are the only person who knows your programs requirements though
20:04	znDuff	CaptainDerp: waitamoment, why are you trying to do it that way? You talk about not wanting some restriction, but I'm very unclear on what exactly that restriction _is_.
20:05	seangrove	Hey all, I've done something stupid with my project, and now I get: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException:
20:05	seangrove
20:05	CaptainDerp	I did not want to overload with tmi. But basically i will have client front ends polling from blocking queues referenced by the maps.
20:05	clojurebot	maps are AWESOME
20:05	seangrove	This has got to be super basic... I'm using (:gen-class :main true), lein 2..
20:05	CaptainDerp	Thanks clojurebot!
20:06	CaptainDerp	And i need other threads to add to the queues referenced by the map
20:06	CaptainDerp	by making the whole map an atom, it works
20:06	CaptainDerp	but wouldn't this be a bottleneck if muliple client front ends are trying to access the mapped values (if another client is already accessing the mapped values)
20:07	znDuff	CaptainDerp: atom derefs are non-blocking.
20:07	CaptainDerp	basically: can muliple threads access an atom at once without slowdown/issues
20:07	CaptainDerp	ah
20:07	brehaut	CaptainDerp: why are you putting queues in atoms?
20:07	CaptainDerp	it just blocks if a change is being made
20:07	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...no, I didn't say that either. :)
20:07	CaptainDerp	ok
20:07	seangrove	Maybe lein 2pre10 is borked...
20:08	CaptainDerp	an atom facilitates multiple thread access right?
20:08	znDuff	CaptainDerp: swap! can repeat the operation if a check-and-set indicates that someone else changed it at the same time
20:08	CaptainDerp	an it is synchronous not asych
20:08	znDuff	CaptainDerp: so -- it doesn't block, it just retries.
20:08	znDuff	CaptainDerp: (which is why you want the operation you pass to swap! to be something fast and free of side effects)
20:09	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...so -- the check-and-set / retry thing is very much inherently async.
20:09	brehaut	CaptainDerp: are you using clojure.lang.PersistentQueue or java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue ?
20:09	CaptainDerp	ok but if the map itself is an atom and not all the mapped objects then will check-and-set fail if the specified mapped object is not being accessed but another mapped object is?
20:09	amalloy	that's the opposite of async, znDuff
20:10	CaptainDerp	java.util.concurrent.LinkedBlockingQueue
20:10	flying_rhino	brehaut: maybe the thing Yeggie was ranting about can be summed up as "What's more, if you write your liberal-language code in a conservative way, people will just look at it and say: 'Well, it's kinda boring, and you could have saved a lot of coding by using some dynamic features. But I guess it gets the job done. LGTM.' " While in conservative language everyone is upset when you do things libera
20:10	brehaut	CaptainDerp: then you dont need to put them into atoms to handle mutation or access
20:10	znDuff	...you're ordering completion, yes, but you're not using a lock to pre-serialize.
20:11	flying_rhino	brehaut: when I suggest python-ish way in clojure no one liked it
20:11	amalloy	try suggesting a clojure-ish solution in python. nobody will like that either
20:11	flying_rhino	brehaut: this might be what yegge was talking about.
20:11	znDuff	flying_rhino: I have to agree w/ amalloy and friends -- "#python is for good ideas only", to quote their policy.
20:12	znDuff	flying_rhino: ...if you talk about doing things in a non-Pythonic way there, you _do_ get shut down.
20:12	amalloy	hah, really? that's a great policy
20:12	flying_rhino	znDuff: all I am saying is that stuff like this make clojure conservative as yegge said.
20:12	CaptainDerp	ok i am still not 100% clear. I need a map where i have async access to its mapped values but sych access to each specific mapped value.
20:12	znDuff	(more politely than in #bash, but that's a different discussion)
20:12	flying_rhino	it is not all bad znDuff
20:13	znDuff	flying_rhino: ...but Yegge claims that Python is liberal, while it has the same culture.
20:13	CaptainDerp	(multiple threads can access different mapped values, but not the same mapped value)
20:13	flying_rhino	znDuff: he didn't say python is particulary liberal, that's ruby
20:13	CaptainDerp	sorry, access and manipulate
20:13	brehaut	flying_rhino: is it conservative to tell someone not to drive their car on the wrong side of the road? or is that just common sense?
20:14	abp	flying_rhino: What things from python do you mean?
20:14	znDuff	flying_rhino: ...and Ruby is also an utter bloody mess.
20:14	flying_rhino	brehaut: yeah but you guys clasify a lot of stuff as wrong, while liberals clasify frwer stuff as wrong.
20:14	flying_rhino	*fewer
20:14	CaptainDerp	Eh? ... in the flood of messages should i restate what i asked?
20:14	brehaut	flying_rhino: python classifies just as much stuff as wrong
20:15	brehaut	flying_rhino: writing function code in python is largely considered not pythonic
20:15	seangrove	Uhg just started a new project with lein, and still get this with `lein run`: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: zenbox.core"
20:16	CaptainDerp	ok i am still not 100% clear. I need a map where i have async access to its mapped values but sych access to each specific mapped value.
20:16	CaptainDerp	(multiple threads can access different mapped values, but not the same mapped value)
20:16	CaptainDerp	(atom {}) does not provide this right?
20:16	CaptainDerp	but {"abc" (atom 1)} does?
20:16	seangrove	What am I missing here?
20:17	flying_rhino	brehaut: I guess we will have to agree to disagree about some stuff (not as much stuff as you might think). I'll continue with clojure even if I am not as fired up as I might have been.
20:17	technomancy	clojure will not turn bad ideas into good ones
20:17	technomancy	sad but true
20:17	brehaut	flying_rhino: try programming clojure with the grain, rahter than trying to fight it. you might find it more enjoyable
20:17	brehaut	(inc technomancy)
20:17	lazybot	⇒ 40
20:18	brehaut	far out man. spend some of that karma somehow
20:18	technomancy	clojurebot: drinks are on meeeeeee!
20:18	clojurebot	No entiendo
20:18	flying_rhino	brehaut: will do
20:19	znDuff	CaptainDerp: When you say "async access", you really mean non-blocking access, right?
20:19	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...and when you say "sync access" for writes, you mean you want them to be coordinated?
20:20	znDuff	CaptainDerp: because if that's the case, I don't see why you can't just put the whole thing into an atom... _maybe_ a ref, if you have more complex logic going on around updates than you're telling us.
20:20	CaptainDerp	znDuff async as in non-blocking yes (aka not an atom), and sync as in blocking (aka atom)
20:20	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...ehh.
20:21	znDuff	CaptainDerp: atoms are always non-blocking on reads.
20:21	znDuff	CaptainDerp: ...they can spin a little on writes, but it sounds like that's what you want.
20:21	CaptainDerp	znDuff but if i have (atom {}) and try to swap! a value (val1) within it, will it block if val2 if being accessed?
20:21	znDuff	CaptainDerp: if it's a read access? No.
20:21	CaptainDerp	znDuff yes i know for reads, but i am concerned about writes
20:22	CaptainDerp	i will never be swapping the map or removing the map, just the mapped values
20:22	znDuff	CaptainDerp: I'd suggest doing it the natural way, and changing it only if benchmarks show you have a problem.
20:22	brehaut	CaptainDerp: LinkedBlockingQueues are already mutable; No Requiere Atom
20:23	CaptainDerp	brehaut: so if i have ({"123" LinkedBlockingQueues} then i do not have to care about any of this?
20:23	brehaut	CaptainDerp: they have their own access semantics
20:23	CaptainDerp	hmm ok makes sence
20:23	CaptainDerp	sense *
20:23	brehaut	CaptainDerp: well, you dont have to care about atom semantics. you have to care about the queue semantics
20:23	CaptainDerp	i can throw atoms out the window for now then :P
20:24	brehaut	(the queues allow nonblocking writes, and blocking reads (with optional timeoutes) from memory)
20:24	CaptainDerp	brehaut true
20:24	CaptainDerp	but that is easy imo
20:26	CaptainDerp	god, replacing a map value is anoying as well it looks like i should do this: (update-in entity [:position] #(add % (:velocity entity)))
20:26	CaptainDerp	... but i find that a bit confusing
20:27	CaptainDerp	swap! has easy samantics lol
20:27	brehaut	CaptainDerp: fnil is your friend
20:28	brehaut	,(update-in {:a {}} [:a :b] (fnil inc 0))
20:28	clojurebot	{:a {:b 1}}
20:29	amalloy	how does his problem have to do with fnil?
20:29	CaptainDerp	ok thats cool i guess, provides a default value if passed 0
20:29	CaptainDerp	but ya what amalloy said
20:30	brehaut	amalloy: it has a lot to do with it if you violently misread things
20:30	brehaut	otherwise: not much
20:30	amalloy	the advice he needs is more like (update-in entity [:position] add (:velocity entity))
20:30	CaptainDerp	hmm all i need is an example
20:30	CaptainDerp	{"abc" 1}
20:31	CaptainDerp	replace abc with 2
20:31	CaptainDerp	:)
20:31	amalloy	look up, one line above your name, for an example :P
20:31	dnolen	,(update-in {:abc 1} [:abc] inc)
20:31	clojurebot	{:abc 2}
20:31	dnolen	,(update-in {:abc 1} [:abc] + 4)
20:31	clojurebot	{:abc 5}
20:31	CaptainDerp	ok thanks a lot dnolen
20:31	dnolen	,(update-in {:abc {:x 1.0 :y 5.0}} [:abc :x] * 0.5)
20:31	clojurebot	{:abc {:y 5.0, :x 0.5}}
20:33	CaptainDerp	(defn update-map [key val] (update-in theGlobalMap [key] val) )
20:33	CaptainDerp	.. correct?!?
20:35	dnolen	CaptainDerp: why not pass the state as explicit argument? I'm assuming you're making some kind of game here.
20:35	brehaut	(comp update-in global-map)
20:36	brehaut	comp‽
20:36	brehaut	no, partial
20:38	brehaut	CaptainDerp: minor point: camelCase is ugly in lisp. http://mumble.net/~campbell/scheme/style.txt
20:38	brehaut	section ** Names
20:39	brehaut	with the exception that camel case is still used for things that generate java classes or interfaces
20:47	dnolen	bbloom: ping
20:49	bbloom	dnolen: pong
20:50	dnolen	bbloom: working on source mapping again - I see you didn't bother to add column info to symbols only seqs?
20:50	bbloom	dnolen: you mean in the jvm's reader?
20:50	dnolen	bbloom: yep
20:50	bbloom	dnolen: hmm. i'm not sure. i basically did a search for all occurrences of "LINE" and added a parallel COLUMN
20:51	bbloom	dnolen: also, my patch was pretty stale by the time somebody applied it
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/07e5516aa3cbb022ccf1659e3bf66d270ede049e
20:51	bbloom	dnolen: oh! you mean in the clojureSCRIPT compiler
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: it's better than nothing, but errors now get line & column information
20:51	bbloom	dnolen: sorry, i misunderstood
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: no I mean your patches to the Java reader
20:51	dnolen	bbloom: those patches affect what we see in CLJS
20:51	bbloom	dnolen: oh, heh ok then i did understand :-)
20:52	bbloom	dnolen: well 1.5 isn't out yet, it's not too late to sneak in a patch, is it? :-)
20:52	dnolen	bbloom: still, like I said, this is a big improvement even for errors - starting to look into the merge process
20:53	dnolen	bbloom: we can fully decode Closure source maps, now just need to take that info and merge with compiler mapping and generate the final source map.
20:53	bbloom	dnolen: awesome
20:54	dnolen	bbloom: it would be nice to get into 1.5.0 but I'm not holding my breath
20:54	bbloom	dnolen: I'm peaking at Compiler.java to see what i missed
20:54	bbloom	peeking*
20:55	dnolen	bbloom: you can't put metadata on arbitary things of course, really I just want them on var symbols (including locals)
20:55	bbloom	dnolen: but you can put them on symbols, right?
20:55	bbloom	dnolen: if they have line data, they should have col too
20:55	dnolen	bbloom: yes that's what I meant ^
20:55	bbloom	dnolen: keywords can't have them tho
20:56	bbloom	or am i remembering wrong...
20:56	bbloom	&^:x 'y
20:56	lazybot	⇒ y
20:56	bbloom	&(with-meta (symbol "x") {:y 1})
20:56	lazybot	⇒ x
20:56	bbloom	&(with-meta (keyword "x") {:y 1})
20:56	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IObj
20:56	bbloom	yeah
20:57	dnolen	bbloom: yeah I'm not even sure column info on keywords is that useful - vars & locals are what you're interested in when debugging.
20:57	TimMc	&(read-string "^:x 'y")
20:57	lazybot	⇒ (quote y)
20:57	TimMc	&(read-string "^:x y")
20:57	lazybot	⇒ y
20:58	bbloom	dnolen: yup. just thinking aloud
20:59	bbloom	dnolen: ok so you said seqs have columns, but not symbols? what about vars?
20:59	abp_	dnolen: Is this: https://gist.github.com/4115467 a legitimate solution to not being able to use qualified symbols in a macro?
21:01	cemerick	dnolen: "blow up given a large set of contents"?
21:01	bbloom	heh, everyone trying to talk to dnolen at once :-P
21:02	dnolen	abp_: what you mean is qualified symbols in fn args?
21:02	dnolen	cemerick: resolved, old issue in nrepl that affects beta but not RC1
21:02	abp_	dnolen: That's a tiny part of my take on prismatics graph. I want to build reactive systems fully declared in terms of fnk-graphs. But i want to use qualified keywords in maps and need to destructure them into qualified symbols.
21:02	cemerick	oh, probably related to load-file
21:02	abp_	dnolen: Yep, let's too, I think.
21:02	bbloom	dnolen: VarExpr and TheVarExpr don't seem to take source, line, or column values in their constructors. that's likely the source of the trouble
21:02	cemerick	Not super-happy about the resolution there, but it'll do for now.
21:03	dnolen	abp_: anything like will involve some hack - no opinions on that from me :)
21:03	dnolen	cemerick: yes load-file was broke
21:03	abp_	dnolen: When one get's the source of such an fn.. Now, it's not what it pretends to be. That's my only concern.
21:03	dnolen	bbloom: yeah that sucks, tooling wants that info.
21:04	bbloom	dnolen: I don't really have time to hack on this now, but I think it's a straightforward patch to add that stuff
21:04	dnolen	bbloom: heh, wasn't asking for a patch - just insight
21:05	bbloom	dnolen: well here's my insight: the base Expr interface should have column and line info
21:05	bbloom	dnolen: right now, that info only exists where strictly necessary for particular categories of errors
21:06	abp_	dnolen: What is the best approach to build functional graphs? I use clojure.tools.namespace.dependency presently, which gives me a structure like #Graph{:dependencies {:b #{:a}}, :dependents {:a #{:b}}} Would using something zippable be "better"?
21:07	bbloom	abp_: what do you mean by zippable?
21:08	bbloom	abp_: the best approach to representing graphs is gonna vary based on the use case
21:08	dnolen	abp_: I really don't know what's best, I haven't considered that particular problem before. others might have thoughts on that - might want ask on the mailing list as well.
21:08	abp_	dnolen: Yes.
21:09	CaptainDerp	is there any way to replace/add values in a map without having to replace the original map?
21:09	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: put the map in an atom
21:09	ChongLi	and update it with swap!
21:09	CaptainDerp	oh my fucking god
21:09	abp_	bbloom: By zippable I mean hierarchical, glad you asked. ;) The use case is building topological chains and wrapping nodes.
21:09	CaptainDerp	here i was one hour ago and people in here convinced me not to use atom
21:09	ChongLi	?
21:10	dnolen	CaptainDerp: that seems like missing the point - functional updates.
21:10	CaptainDerp	sorry
21:10	CaptainDerp	haha
21:10	ChongLi	what were their arguments?
21:10	ChongLi	I'm not exactly a pro clojure hacker
21:10	bbloom	abp_: it seems that zippers are only really useful for trees with containment. they don't really seem to have any support for some top-level notion of an index
21:11	bbloom	abp_: by that I mean if you had some map of node-id to a vector of child node ids, there isn't really a clean way to use a zipper on that
21:11	dnolen	CaptainDerp: if perf is an issue there are ways to achieve Java perf mutation - but I would try to understand the Clojure way for the time being.
21:11	bbloom	abp_: immutible graphs almost necessitate that type of node or edge (or both) index
21:12	bbloom	abp_: but there may be a functional analog of a zipper… although i don't know of one
21:12	bbloom	analog, for graphs, i mean
21:12	ChongLi	I guess it really depends on what you're doing
21:12	ChongLi	if you end up making the map an argument to every function
21:12	ChongLi	you're probably doing something weird
21:14	abp_	bbloom: Isn't clojure.zip functional? It's able to zip into nested vectors.
21:15	bbloom	abp_: zippers only work on trees, not graphs
21:15	CaptainDerp	ok i am trying to swap an atom within a map but it only accepts a function: (swap! (theMap key) val) fails
21:15	bbloom	abp_: you can project a graph onto a tree via a walk, but zippers provide editing and the interface to clojure's zipper library isn't robust enough to support graph-backed trees
21:15	ChongLi	the map should be in the atom
21:15	CaptainDerp	it is
21:16	CaptainDerp	oh wait
21:16	CaptainDerp	sorry no
21:16	CaptainDerp	i cant have the map as an atom
21:16	ChongLi	why not?
21:16	CaptainDerp	otherwise i would use assoc
21:16	CaptainDerp	i need it to be non-blocking on writes
21:16	abp_	bbloom: Good to know, then i'll stick with clojure.tools.namespace.dependency for a while. It's basically just the index representing the graph.
21:16	ChongLi	oh
21:17	ChongLi	an agent is probably what you want then, right guys?
21:17	CaptainDerp	hmm
21:17	bbloom	abp_: yeah, that's the simplest and most common graph representation: some index of nodes and some index of edges, plus optionally a reverse index of edges
21:17	ChongLi	a clojure agent provides shared access to mutable state
21:17	ChongLi	and does so in an indepdent, asynchronous manner
21:18	ChongLi	independent
21:18	bbloom	abp_: if you read Huet's original paper on zippers, you might discover a way to apply the principals to graphs :-) or maybe somebody else already has, but i don't know if it
21:19	CaptainDerp	so i have to wrap my map?
21:19	ChongLi	if you want to store it in an agent, yeah
21:19	CaptainDerp	but is that a necessity ?
21:20	ChongLi	would it be a problem?
21:20	ChongLi	you want multiple threads to hammer on this map in an asynchronous, non-blocking fashion?
21:21	CaptainDerp	so are you saying that there is no way i can update a map's values?
21:21	CaptainDerp	i have to replace the map always
21:21	bbloom	CaptainDerp: yes. and that is a feature
21:21	CaptainDerp	bbloom thank you
21:21	bbloom	CaptainDerp: in fact, that's one of the BEST features of clojure :-)
21:22	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: you're not "replacing the map"
21:22	ChongLi	you're associng new key value pairs with the map
21:22	CaptainDerp	so in order to update a map's values i have to wrap it in an agent
21:22	bbloom	CaptainDerp: no
21:22	bbloom	CaptainDerp: forget agents
21:22	bbloom	CaptainDerp: forget atoms
21:22	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: no, you can pass it around all you want
21:22	bbloom	CaptainDerp: take a break from all that stuff for a bit
21:23	bbloom	CaptainDerp: that stuff exists for concurrency
21:23	loliveira	,(let [{:keys [c d] :or {:c 0 :d 0}} {:d 5}] [c d])
21:23	clojurebot	[nil 5]
21:23	bbloom	you need to get a handle on the core concepts before you touch the more advanced ones
21:23	loliveira	shouldn't eval to [0 5]?
21:23	bbloom	i recommend 4clojure.com
21:23	CaptainDerp	bbloom: it is the key issue i working through at the moment
21:23	CaptainDerp	i got it working as an atom but that is innefficent
21:23	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: can you tell us more about what you're actually trying to do?
21:23	bbloom	CaptainDerp: http://www.4clojure.com/users follow 10 or 20 of the top users there
21:24	CaptainDerp	i may not know all the concepts but this best how i learn
21:24	aperiodic	loliveira: ##(let [{:keys [c d] :or {c 0 d 0}} {:d 5}] [c d])
21:24	lazybot	⇒ [0 5]
21:24	bbloom	try the puzzles on 4clojure and then learn from the other people who solved them
21:24	aperiodic	loliveira: you're providing defaults for the symbols, not the keywords
21:24	loliveira	thank you
21:25	aperiodic	you're welcome
21:25	bbloom	CaptainDerp: you might want a "transient" if you're "birthing" a value. however, everyone in this channel is just guessing what you're trying to do, so the advice is watered down
21:25	CaptainDerp	i just neeed a map with asych access (def will do that), sych reads and writes to the values (no issue there im using a blocking queue), but i need to add/replace key/values in the map without replacing the map
21:25	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: clojure uses structural sharing
21:25	bbloom	CaptainDerp: do NOT use def for modifying variables. ARGH that's not even close to right :-P
21:25	ChongLi	it never "replaces the map"
21:25	CaptainDerp	the key issue at the moment is aysch writes
21:26	bbloom	CaptainDerp: no, the key issue is that you aren't comfortable with immutability :-P
21:26	CaptainDerp	bbloom i am not using it for modigying i am using it only for initial creation
21:27	CaptainDerp	bbloom frankly i think you are being a bit rude. I have no issue with concurrancy or immutability i am learning the clojure process of dealing with them.
21:27	bbloom	CaptainDerp: my apologies
21:27	bbloom	CaptainDerp: You're right. my comment was out of line
21:27	ChongLi	there's a big difference between typical immutable values in a language like java (where full copies are performed) and the persistent data structures used in clojure
21:27	bbloom	CaptainDerp: I'll go back to work :-P
21:28	CaptainDerp	no problem, 12 hours in at work here and shit can go crazy too
21:28	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: agents are what you want to manage asynchronous change
21:28	ChongLi	(def blah (agent {}))
21:28	CaptainDerp	i almost am done, i already have it working. But i know that efficency is going to be an issue if the whole map is an atom
21:28	ChongLi	(send blah assoc :a "hi")
21:28	ChongLi	(send blah assoc :b "hello")
21:29	ChongLi	atoms and agents are just reference types
21:29	CaptainDerp	ChongLi thanks i will look into it again. I was just hoping to avoid them but after that hepful information by bbloom i understand i cant modify datastructures without replacing
21:29	ChongLi	you aren't "replacing"
21:30	ChongLi	if a map contains 10000 key value pairs
21:30	ChongLi	and you make one change
21:30	dnolen	CaptainDerp: bbloom was trying to suggest that you thread your state as an immutable value through your program
21:30	ChongLi	it will not copy all 10000 pairs
21:30	dnolen	CaptainDerp: I would try to do that first before messing with atoms or agents.
21:30	ChongLi	it'll make a new branch of the tree and copy like 32 values at most
21:30	ChongLi	dnolen: he wants asynchronous updates
21:31	ChongLi	generally the way you want to design your program
21:31	ChongLi	is as a box of pure functions
21:31	dnolen	ChongLi: right, then sure agents could work. that wasn't clear earlier.
21:32	ChongLi	and a small collection side-effecting functions forming a "shell" around the pure core
21:34	CaptainDerp	apologize if i was not clear, often it is hard to be in an irc where a message may have been missed or overlooked or 12 hours in im starting to something... something
21:34	CaptainDerp	ok i think i know how now:
21:34	CaptainDerp	(theMap (agent {}))
21:34	CaptainDerp	(send theMap assoc key val)
21:34	ChongLi	you need def if you want to do that
21:35	CaptainDerp	yes i left that out
21:35	CaptainDerp	but i am
21:35	ChongLi	it all depends on what exactly you're doing with this map
21:36	ChongLi	but generally what you want is a function that takes a map, some other values and returns a map
21:36	ChongLi	and then use send with that
21:36	ChongLi	don't use send all over the place in your code
21:36	ChongLi	try to use it in only one location
21:37	CaptainDerp	i might not be doing this the best way but i am using this global map as a buffer for "tickets" that will be recieved by a front end
21:37	CaptainDerp	i am programming a clojure web server
21:37	CaptainDerp	... it may be a bit too long to explain in this irc
21:38	ChongLi	have you looked at the existing ecosystem?
21:38	CaptainDerp	I would love to explain it and get your opinion if it is a good structural idea but i dont want to bore you :P
21:38	ChongLi	or are you just rolling your own to learn?
21:39	CaptainDerp	what do you mean by the existing ecosystem?
21:39	ChongLi	noir, compojure, ring etc.
21:40	ChongLi	another lib is aleph
21:40	CaptainDerp	yes not in depth. But my coworker has (who is actually doing most of the web server work)
21:40	ChongLi	I don't have any experience with this stuff
21:40	CaptainDerp	i am just builing a couple components
21:40	ChongLi	just throwing out stuff I know about
21:40	CaptainDerp	i had to learn ring and a couple other things to understand how to respond to messages
21:41	seangrove	Do I have to do anything special to get noir to serve static assets?
21:41	CaptainDerp	this whole thing is to facilitate long polling as well
21:41	seangrove	I've googled quite a bit, can't seem to find it. I have a resources/public folder, but noir isn't service anything from there
21:42	ChongLi	seangrove: hmmm
21:42	seangrove	heh, s/service/serving
21:42	ChongLi	noir may not be optimized for that
21:43	ChongLi	is it not desirable to use something like apache/nginx for those?
21:43	seangrove	Oh, just for development right now
21:43	cshell	how are you referencing the static files?
21:44	ChongLi	oh
21:44	ChongLi	you need to add a route for them
21:44	ChongLi	(route/resources "/")
21:46	ChongLi	oh nvm
21:46	ChongLi	that's compojure
21:46	ChongLi	haha
21:46	seangrove	Yeah, that's what I thought, heh
21:46	seangrove	Looking through the noir docs again...
21:48	cshell	did you try referencing it without the public?
21:48	seangrove	cshell: Yeah, I've tried all permutations, but I believe it should be at http://localhost:8080/css/styles.css
21:49	CaptainDerp	Hmm isnt send and swap the same kind of thing but the first is for agents and the second is for atoms?
21:49	ChongLi	looks like noir doesn't have any special handling for this
21:49	ChongLi	they want you to use slurp
21:50	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: it's the same general kind of thing
21:50	cshell	what does the browser return?
21:50	ChongLi	but the semantics of the operation is totally different
21:50	ChongLi	swap! is just comparing the value and swapping it if it wasn't modified
21:50	seangrove	cshell: The server just returns 404, standard noir "we can't find that one" page
21:51	cshell	hmmm, i am able to get my css page at that same address
21:51	ChongLi	send queues your action on a thread pool
21:51	CaptainDerp	ok so what would be the equivilant of (swap! theMap assoc key val)?
21:51	cshell	let me see if I did anything to configure it
21:51	CaptainDerp	oh wait i think i know
21:51	CaptainDerp	derp
21:51	cshell	seangrove: do you call load-views?
21:52	CaptainDerp	actually nevermind my inital thought was still right
21:52	seangrove	cshell: I did (load-views-ns ...)
21:52	CaptainDerp	ChongLi: what is the equivilant?
21:52	seangrove	One moment, I might have had something else causing a problem..
21:52	seangrove	Ah, ok
21:52	seangrove	I was running lein run, and there was some problem with the code, and it wasn't getting reloaded
21:52	seangrove	So my changes were being ignored
21:53	cshell	Yeah, that can do it
21:53	seangrove	Sorry about that... but thanks cshell and ChongLi
21:53	cshell	I do'nt think there's anythin special you do
21:53	cshell	I can't find anything I did
21:54	seangrove	Seems to be working now. Maybe I should hook up lein run/cljsbuild errors to growl somehow
21:54	CaptainDerp	ChongLi: what is the equivilant?
21:55	CaptainDerp	what would be the equivilant of (swap! theMap assoc key val)?
21:56	CaptainDerp	i do (send theMap assoc key val) but i get an error if i try an access key later in the same thread
21:56	CaptainDerp	wait... would send be doing the action asych and i am trying to access the val before it is sent/done?
21:56	CaptainDerp	/added
21:56	CaptainDerp	:P
21:56	dnolen	bbloom: ping
21:57	bbloom	dnolen: still here
21:57	dnolen	bbloom: you might know this since you worked on the lexical stuff.
21:57	CaptainDerp	hmm i think i am correct
21:57	brehaut	CaptainDerp: still camelCasing? hyphen-names is preferred
21:57	dnolen	bbloom: did you notice that vars created by def don't actually pass along the var map?
21:57	CaptainDerp	brehaut bad habbit :s
21:57	thmzlt	has anyone tried lein2 with drip?
21:58	ChongLi	I'm back
21:58	bbloom	dnolen: clarifying: is this in the JVM reader/compiler again? and by "var map" do you mean metadata on a particular var?
21:58	ChongLi	CaptainDerp: how are you trying to access the key later?
21:59	dnolen	bbloom: no CLJS compiler stuff - def creates an AST w/ :name field but this :name field isn't a var AST, just a symbol.
21:59	CaptainDerp	ChongLi (@the-map key)
21:59	CaptainDerp	i think i may need send-off instead?
21:59	dnolen	bbloom: emit :def just munges the symbol - so this skips the mapping info step I think.
21:59	ChongLi	try send-off
21:59	dnolen	bbloom: just wanted to confirm since you might have looked at that.
22:00	bbloom	dnolen: ah, i see. yeah, you have to look up the var in @namespaces
22:00	ChongLi	does the function that updates your map do some IO?
22:00	ChongLi	if so, you want send-off
22:00	ChongLi	send is for functions that are CPU limited
22:01	ChongLi	the thing is; no matter what you do you should always be able to dereference the agent to get at the map
22:02	ChongLi	since the map inside the agent is a persistent collection
22:03	ChongLi	and because of how agents are implemented (as a mutable reference type)
22:03	CaptainDerp	i can @ the map but i think i cant get the val for the key
22:03	CaptainDerp	i am testing at the moment with the simplier setup
22:03	ChongLi	just @ the map
22:04	CaptainDerp	@ map is not the issue
22:04	ChongLi	and see if the key val pair is even in there
22:04	CaptainDerp	that is what i am going to do :)
22:04	CaptainDerp	just seting up a new test incase it was some other bs
22:04	ChongLi	since agents are asynch you can't expect the value to be in there right after calling send
22:05	CaptainDerp	ya i think that is my issue
22:05	CaptainDerp	but my 2 second knowledge of send-off made me think it was a possible solution
22:05	CaptainDerp	i need to block until it is in there
22:06	ChongLi	the difference between send and send-off is how the thread pool is managed
22:06	CaptainDerp	ya
22:06	CaptainDerp	im getting that now
22:06	ChongLi	to block on an agent
22:06	ChongLi	use await
22:06	CaptainDerp	haha u said it as i found it
22:07	CaptainDerp	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/await
22:07	CaptainDerp	thanks again for your help ChongLi
22:08	CaptainDerp	its fun to be working with threads again
22:08	ChongLi	just doing what I can
22:08	CaptainDerp	javascript can be boring :P
22:08	CaptainDerp	(but callbacks can be fun)
22:09	CaptainDerp	ok its all working now
22:09	CaptainDerp	and should be efficent to some degree
22:10	ChongLi	it's likely not going to compare favourably to something like warp (written in haskell)
22:10	CaptainDerp	i think this is a faster/cleaner solution than using a DB for this one thing
22:10	ChongLi	that family of servers is pretty crazy
22:10	CaptainDerp	we are using a clojure web server with a postgres db and a pure js front end
22:11	CaptainDerp	so far no issue. but we are not concerned about speed too too much
22:11	ChongLi	I hope the data in this map is not important
22:11	CaptainDerp	at the moment
22:11	ChongLi	have you checked out datomic?
22:11	CaptainDerp	ChongLi not super important just should be available <1 second
22:12	CaptainDerp	hmm no but i like that it supports time-based facts
22:12	ChongLi	http://www.datomic.com/videos.html
22:12	ChongLi	datomic is brilliant
22:12	CaptainDerp	we hate sql at the moment because of its lack of support for time and age based issues
22:12	CaptainDerp	how old is it
22:13	CaptainDerp	is it industry ready?
22:13	CaptainDerp	haha but then again i am saying that in a clojure irc
22:13	CaptainDerp	:P
22:13	ChongLi	datomic leaves the data storage part to another provider
22:13	CaptainDerp	I will sent the link to my poss
22:13	CaptainDerp	boss*
22:14	ChongLi	such as a traditional db or something like amazon dynamodb
22:14	wingy	i have a string and want to use it as part of a keyword eg. (def string "foo") and make a keyword out of it eg. :foo/bar
22:14	wingy	how is it done?
22:15	ChongLi	#(keyword "foo/bar")
22:15	ChongLi	err
22:15	ChongLi	&(keyword "foo/bar")
22:15	lazybot	⇒ :foo/bar
22:15	ChongLi	there you go
22:15	ChongLi	oh, sorry
22:15	wingy	ChongLi: hmm i should smash them together first
22:15	ChongLi	yeah probably
22:16	wingy	&(keyword (format "%s/bar" "foo"))
22:16	lazybot	⇒ :foo/bar
22:16	wingy	yepp thx
22:16	ChongLi	yeah there you go
22:16	mattmoss	clojure is ruining my ability to write C++ code... I keep doing (printf "blah blah")
22:16	ChongLi	haha
22:17	ChongLi	I'm not sure if I'd be able to cope with C++ at this point
22:17	wingy	as long as it's a lisp
22:18	ChongLi	yeah I love scheme and elisp
22:18	ChongLi	have not used CL though
22:18	brehaut	wait what‽ love elisp!
22:18	ChongLi	haha
22:18	ChongLi	what's wrong with elisp?
22:18	ChongLi	it's totally crazy
22:18	Sgeo	,(symbol "foo" "bar")
22:18	clojurebot	foo/bar
22:19	Sgeo	,((comp keyword symbol) "foo" "bar")
22:19	clojurebot	:foo/bar
22:19	ChongLi	dynamic scoping!
22:19	ChongLi	I like how gerry sussman considers dynamic scoping to be a bug
22:21	CaptainDerp	Hopfully i will never degrade in my other "good" languages
22:21	CaptainDerp	god i know so many now
22:21	CaptainDerp	learned 3 this year alone
22:22	ChongLi	the best part about learning new languages is learning new ways to think about problem solving
22:22	ChongLi	new ways to decompose a problem
22:22	ChongLi	have you gone through SICP?
22:23	CaptainDerp	the text book? no
22:23	ChongLi	I'd recommend going through it (and the lectures) if you can find time
22:24	CaptainDerp	but i do agree with the whole new perspective thing
22:24	ChongLi	it's a real eye-opener
22:24	CaptainDerp	AI languages are awesome that way
22:24	CaptainDerp	js can be cool with call backs
22:24	CaptainDerp	but that is it imo
22:24	seangrove	Hmm, I've setup a new cljs app, and it seems to be mostly working, except that the google closure library isn't being compiled into the output javascript
22:24	CaptainDerp	clojure is nice ... mainly because of interop with java (i am still 1 month into clojure)
22:25	seangrove	the compiled cljs starts with 'goog.provide('myns.main')', but of course goog isn't defined yet
22:25	ChongLi	and the persistent data structures and mutable reference types
22:25	ChongLi	the way they're all cleanly handled in a uniform manner
22:26	ChongLi	makes clojure feel like an extremely modern language
22:27	dnolen	bbloom: another thing - there is no difference between resolve-var vs. resolve-existing-var besides the warning side-effect?
22:27	yedi	you know those blog posts "steps to <programming language> enlightment" or "<programming language> learning curve"
22:27	yedi	anyone know of any similar ones for clojure?
22:27	dnolen	bbloom: I'm about to consolidate that code, it's driving me insane looking at it.
22:28	bbloom	dnolen: hurray! that's been annoying me too. honestly, i'd prefer the warning be eliminated entirely as a side effect and attached to the AST :-P
22:29	bbloom	dnolen: there are also several different lookup mechanisms in there, but i'm not convinced they are all necessary
22:29	dnolen	bbloom: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/3b0f5355e9631adedbf8ceeef542200c76850616
22:29	bbloom	but that's just a recollection, i don't recall why i thought that
22:30	ChongLi	yedi: I'm not sure
22:30	dnolen	bbloom: yeah, the compiler needs some serious refactoring throughout - I've forgotten what most of this code does ...
22:30	ChongLi	yedi: you can take most of what is said in a blog post about lisp in general
22:30	bbloom	dnolen: there's a little bit too much stuff happening in the single analysis phase
22:31	dnolen	bbloom: maybe if we both make it to Clojure/West we can have a CLJS compiler hackathon.
22:31	bbloom	dnolen: now that analysis doesn't do the gensym stuff, it should be much much much easier to split it into multiple phases
22:31	bbloom	dnolen: well, like i said, I'm 95% sure i'm moving to NYC in a few months, so we can do it there too, heh
22:32	dnolen	bbloom: oh right! that too :)
22:33	seangrove	Any reason the google closure lib wouldn't be compiled and included at the top of the compiled js files?
22:34	dnolen	seangrove: that seems pretty weird
22:40	ChongLi	this is such an outright slaughter
22:40	ChongLi	poor bears
22:41	ChongLi	ahh there it is
22:41	ChongLi	they're on the board now
22:41	seangrove	This might be a hint - first time I run cljsbuid once, I get a error with a stack trace, but the second time it thinks everything is fine
22:41	seangrove	Makes sense, nothing's changed, but it can look like it built fine
22:44	seangrove	Ok, could actually be the domina library
23:20	dnolen	seangrove: if you can reproduce, worth opening up a ticket w/ steps - weird stuff like that should be tracked.
23:32	bbloom	is there a concatonative programming paradigm available in the clojure universe yet? I'm curious to see if somebody came up with something Factor inspired