#clojure – 2012-10-08

2012-10-08

00:09	Gosh	is there a way to create local variables?
00:09	Gosh	i meant private*
00:09	Gosh	like defn- for functions
00:24	Sgeo	Gosh, yes
00:24	Sgeo	Set the private metadata
00:24	Sgeo	(def ^:private foo 5)
00:25	Sgeo	Or (def ^{:private true} foo 5)
00:37	Gosh	thanks
00:38	Sgeo	You're welcome
00:48	callen	what are the main differences between using Noir and a normal Jetty server?
00:48	callen	is there any reason not to use Netty?
00:48	callen	oh I see, Jetty is actually faster most of the time, interesting.
00:52	Gosh	I am wondering if, when Java will support lambda expressions, will we be able to use #() instead of proxies?
00:59	Sgeo	Gosh, well, there's still a lot of old APIs that would be written in terms of accepting an instance of a class that implements an interface...
00:59	Sgeo	Bluh, mouthful
01:00	Sgeo	New APIs would probably accept fns directly, but old ones might not, but that depends if Java might provide some convenience for dealing with the situation
01:00	Sgeo	I should note that I'm not particularly a Java person
01:00	frio	i wonder if they'll simply equate a newstyle lambda with a callable Sgeo
01:01	frio	(Callableis the standard Java interface for a closure, basically)
01:03	Sgeo	frio, what about APIs that don't accept Callable? I believe that all Clojure fns are Callable, aren't they, so in situations where an API does accept Callable, there should already be no need for reify
01:04	frio	yeah, true enough.
01:16	Sgeo	Wait, all Clojure fns being Callable doesn't make sense
01:17	Sgeo	,(supers #(+ 1 1))
01:17	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: sandbox$eval27$fn__28 cannot be cast to java.lang.Class>
01:17	Sgeo	,((comp supers class) +)
01:17	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.AFunction clojure.lang.IFn clojure.lang.AFn java.io.Serializable ...}
01:19	Sgeo	Hmm, apparently it can be
01:20	Sgeo	I don't entirely get what happens if you .call a function that requires arguments
01:20	Sgeo	,(.call (fn [x] x))
01:21	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: sandbox$eval81$fn>
01:21	Sgeo	Ah
01:33	amalloy	last time i read the java lambda proposal, it was syntactic sugar over one-method interfaces
01:36	amalloy	so {x => x + 1} or whatever their syntax is gets "expanded" to new MyFunctionType<Integer, Integer>() {public int call(int x) {return x + 1;}} // based on the expected interface
02:08	john2x	is there a color library for clojure? or the preferred way to convert between color values (hex to rgb, vice versa, etc.)
02:34	hyPiRion	john2x: ##(Integer/parseInt "AABBCC" 16) ?
02:34	lazybot	⇒ 11189196
02:35	hyPiRion	,(format "%x" 0xAABBCC)
02:35	clojurebot	"aabbcc"
02:36	john2x	hyPiRion: for rgb, i was thinking something more like [128 128 128]
02:37	john2x	i already wrote a helper function for rgb-to-hex, and I'm about to write one for the reverse, but maybe there's already a wheel for this.
02:39	hyPiRion	I'm not aware of any, I'm afraid.
03:03	Amaryl	Hi!
03:04	Amaryl	The book "Clojure programming" talk about the Clojure programming language, but does not even explain what is a closure :(
03:04	Amaryl	I see this example in the book
03:04	Amaryl	(defn doubler [f] (fn [& args] (* 2 (apply f args))))
03:04	Amaryl	is this a closure?
03:18	hyPiRion	Amaryl: yes, indeed it is
03:18	hyPiRion	It's the same as (defn doubler [f] (let [f f] (fn [& args] (* 2 (apply f args)))))
03:19	amalloy	hyPiRion: in what way is that an interesting comparison? anytime f is in scope, you can add as many instances of (let [f f]) as you want
03:22	augustl	is there a way to make lein-ring use one handler for dev and another when running as a .war in prod?
03:24	hyPiRion	amalloy: Closures are "more visible" when shown within a let
03:27	hyPiRion	Or well, closures are introduced as (let [foo ...] (fn [...] (... foo ...)))
03:53	Amaryl	Thanks hyPiRion
04:22	wei_	is there yet a clojurescript library that wrap the google closure animation libs?
04:22	wei_	or for doing any kind of animation, for that matter
07:54	Cheiron	Hi, is it idiomatic to let inside a let?
07:55	adu	from my experience from other lisps, only if it's a different type of let, like letrec or let*
07:59	pandeiro	is it possible to output just a 'blank' js file with only gclosure + cljs.core with lein-cljsbuild?
07:59	Cheiron	edu: i have this http://pastie.org/4932599
08:00	Cheiron	first i need to log, then start operations
08:01	Cheiron	in my sample, the log might not even issued if operations throw exceptions
08:05	Wasserkraftwerk	Cheiron, do you play StarCraft?
08:06	Cheiron	Wasserkraftwerk: should I ?
08:06	Wasserkraftwerk	Not really, just wondering.
08:07	Gosh	How do you cast to a java class in clojure?
08:07	ChousukeTheFinn	MINÄ OLEN CHOUSUKE SUOMALAINEN, MINÄ SYÖN POROT
08:09	clgv	Gosh: you dont. you can use type hints to tell the compiler which method to use
08:42	Gosh	(def ^Foo test (-> obj .method .toFoo))
08:42	Gosh	(-> test .someFooMethod) => No matching method found: someFooMethod for class $Proxy1
08:43	Gosh	I would like to cast to Foo after calling toFoo method
08:43	Gosh	toFoo returns an Object
08:44	Gosh	an object of class Object*
08:45	gfredericks	things are generally considered objects at runtime in clojure. If the method exists on the actual class of the object in question then it should work fine
08:45	gfredericks	for some reason your .toFoo method is returning a $Proxy1 instead of a Foo
08:55	Gosh	works now, forgot to pass some arguments to someFoo method >_>
08:55	Gosh	I dont even need ^Foo hint anymore, nice
09:00	gfredericks	yeah it's generally not needed
09:10	_ulises	I've just installed nrepl (been using slime/swank for a good while now) and I'm a bit lost as to how to do things. In my previous setup I'd C-x C-k to compile a clj file and if I changed namespaces in the REPL I'd have everything ready. When I try to do this using nrepl I get a bunch of class not found exceptions.
09:11	_ulises	I've started nrepl using jack-in however this never asked me for a project directory or anything so it's not surprising it's not finding anything.
09:48	kral	namaste
09:59	antoineB	hello, is "(def ^{:dynamic true :private true} global-var nil)" is ok, for a var which shouldn't be seen outside namespace?
10:00	chouser	sure
10:00	chouser	or (def ^:dynamic ^:private global-var nil)
10:01	antoineB	ok
10:01	antoineB	so "^:" is some sugar for ^{:... true} ?
10:02	Bronsa	yes
10:02	Bronsa	but it's only available for >=clojure-1.3.0
10:06	antoineB	i do some clojure script
10:06	Cheiron_	hi, what is the diff between map and mapcat? mapcat will call concat but .. so what? what is the impact
10:07	gfredericks	Cheiron_: you get a flatter sequence than with map
10:07	gfredericks	assuming your map function returns a sequence itself
10:07	gfredericks	,(map range [1 2 3])
10:07	clojurebot	((0) (0 1) (0 1 2))
10:07	gfredericks	,(mapcat range [1 2 3])
10:07	clojurebot	(0 0 1 0 1 ...)
10:08	Cheiron_	gfredericks: eye c!
10:08	gfredericks	~yay
10:08	clojurebot	Pardon?
10:08	casion	I see
10:08	gfredericks	clojurebot: yay is sweet
10:08	clojurebot	c'est bon!
10:08	casion	wee
10:08	Cheiron_	gfredericks: muchas gracias
10:08	gfredericks	Cheiron_: no probalo
10:09	Cheiron_	clojurebot: if you make yourself more than just a man, if you devote yourself to an ideal, then you will become something else entirely
10:09	clojurebot	hiredman is slightly retarded
10:09	casion	LOL
10:09	gfredericks	~rimshot
10:09	clojurebot	Badum, tish
10:39	doomlord	is there an existing macro for repeated application: (((f)a)b)c) = (??? f a b c) ... kind of like -> but backwards
10:40	doomlord	if not, any suggestions on what you'd call that
10:40	casion	doomlord: your example is confusing to me
10:40	doomlord	use case: accessing nested datastructurse
10:41	casion	doomlord: you'd just use -> for that
10:42	doomlord	isn't that repeated functoins; i'm after repeatedly treating the return value as a function, and applying given arguments
10:42	joly``	"curried-application"?
10:42	doomlord	yeah
10:43	doomlord	the use case i have in mind is accessing nested datastructures - which i gather are 'funcallable' in clojure
10:44	doomlord	eg (def a { :foo [10 20 30] } ) (print ((a :foo)1) => 10 ... simple example, but with more nesting i might make myself a macro if one doesn't exist
10:44	doomlord	eg (def a { :foo [10 20 30] } ) (print ((a :foo)1) => 20 ... simple example, but with more nesting i might make myself a macro if one doesn't exist
10:46	joly``	,(get-in {:a {:b 1} :c {:d 2}} [:a :b])
10:46	clojurebot	1
10:46	casion	,(let [a {:foo [10 20 30]}] (-> a :foo first))
10:46	clojurebot	10
10:47	doomlord	oh thanks.. What i was missing is that :foo is also an acessor function
10:48	gfredericks	,(let [a {:foo [10 20 30]}] (get-in a :foo 1))
10:48	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
10:48	doomlord	(-> a :foo (nth 1))
10:48	antoineB	is it possible to make a private def visible for a special namespace?
10:49	gfredericks	,(let [a {:foo [10 20 30]}] (get-in a [:foo 1]))
10:49	clojurebot	20
10:49	doomlord	(let [a {:foo[10 20 30]}] (-> :foo (nth 1)))
10:49	doomlord	,(let [a {:foo[10 20 30]}] (-> :foo (nth 1)))
10:49	clojurebot	#<UnsupportedOperationException java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Keyword>
10:49	doomlord	,(let [a {:foo[10 20 30]}] (->a :foo (nth 1)))
10:49	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ->a in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:49	doomlord	,(let [a {:foo[10 20 30]}] (-> a :foo (nth 1)))
10:49	clojurebot	20
10:50	gfredericks	antoineB: that would be a rather complicated visibility model if you could. Maybe rethink your namespace structure?
10:51	antoineB	gfredericks: is have a macro that use private def (and i use clojurescript)
10:51	antoineB	so i need to put macro apart
10:53	gfredericks	even in clj-jvm you can't have macros that expand to call private things
10:53	antoineB	ok
10:56	casion	I thought you could refer to private defs?
10:56	gfredericks	antoineB: I think best practice is to have a public API that just consists of functions, and then write simple macros for sugar that defer to the functions (which are public)
10:57	gfredericks	casion: the expansion has to be valid code in the ns where it expands
10:57	gfredericks	so depends on the details really
10:59	casion	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5600
10:59	casion	is there something wrong with my understanding there?
11:00	gfredericks	casion: all that looks normal to me -- what weren't you expecting?
11:01	casion	gfredericks: maybe I'm misunderstanding the discussion?
11:01	gfredericks	casion: we're talking about macroexpansion
11:01	gfredericks	what I was saying you can't do is
11:02	gfredericks	priv> (defmacro my-pub-macro [] `(privfun))
11:02	gfredericks	pubbie> (priv/my-pub-macro)
11:02	gfredericks	because the expansion isn't valid in pubbie even though it's defined in priv
11:07	Frozenlock	How can I add a file in the uberjar? In this case I would like to include an image.
11:08	Frozenlock	And is there some special path I need to use if I intend to slurp it?
11:09	gfredericks	/resources
11:09	Frozenlock	Oh, so simple :)
11:09	Frozenlock	thanks!
11:09	gfredericks	then you can find it with clojure.java.io/resource (either in an uberjar or in the expanded lein project)
11:22	Frozenlock	(ns bacnet-logger.systray
11:22	Frozenlock	(:use [clojure.string :only (split join)]
11:22	Frozenlock	[seesaw.core]
11:22	Frozenlock	[seesaw.swingx]
11:22	Frozenlock	[seesaw.dev :only (show-options)]
11:22	Frozenlock	[seesaw.mig])
11:22	Frozenlock	(:require [seesaw.bind :as b]))
11:22	casion	...
11:22	Frozenlock
11:22	Frozenlock
11:22	Frozenlock	(import '(java.awt.SystemTray)
11:22	casion	refheap myabe?
11:22	Frozenlock	'(java.awt.event ActionListener))
11:22	Frozenlock
11:23	Frozenlock	(defn create-image
11:23	Frozenlock	[path description]
11:23	casion	or not
11:23	Frozenlock	(-> (javax.swing.ImageIcon. (clojure.java.io/resource path) description)
11:23	Frozenlock	(.getImage)))
11:23	Frozenlock
11:23	Frozenlock	AHHHHHH
11:23	Frozenlock	Sorry
11:23	Frozenlock	No, wrong buffer
11:23	Frozenlock	I'm so sorry!
11:23	casion	:)
11:23	Frozenlock	I should disable paste for my erc buffer
11:24	casion	seesaw doesn't have systemtray bindings?
11:24	Frozenlock	Not that I know of.. But I would be very happy if it did.
11:25	duck1123	Doesn't ERC have a plugin that disallows long pastes? Might be worth looking into
11:26	casion	Frozenlock: at the very least I think making your own seesaw widget for it would be beneficial
11:27	casion	Frozenlock: it has seesaw.icon though, so that's something :)
11:30	Frozenlock	Right! No need for my silly create-image then!
11:51	doomlord	can clojure & the jvm utilize SIMD instructions
11:52	S11001001	doomlord: not directly
11:53	doomlord	i guess its not a priority in the use cases (web concurency?) what made me ask is that SIMD is a form of parallelism, and functoinal programming is good at expresing parallelism.
11:54	fractaloop	SIMD is directl parallelism. Clojure is better at things like concurrency from what I've gathered
11:56	antares_	doomlord: there is a new project in OpenJDK that explores using SIMD and GPUs in the JVM. There are also OpenCL bindings and such, although not very mature.
11:58	doomlord	(there is an example of a customized lisp being used for low-level work, naughty-dog GOAL on the ps2, although i gather it was more game-scripting with souped up inline asm)
11:58	doomlord	is/was
11:59	fractaloop	If you need any serious performance, write it in C/C++ for the dirty work and control it from higher up (Clojure)
11:59	fractaloop	Trying to shoehorn low level optimizations into a very high level language is a recipe for pain
12:00	doomlord	its low level opt that got me interested in FP :) but there is no silver bullet
12:01	casion	doomlord: you could mess with ocaml
12:02	doomlord	ocaml did look interesting too, as did microsoft f# but i prefer something more crossplatform
12:03	kilon	fp ? as functional programming ?
12:03	doomlord	yes
12:03	kilon	i see
12:03	casion	ocaml is pretty well cross-platform
12:03	fractaloop	doomlord: What kind of work are you doing? Is it the kind of stuff you want GPU level parallelism for?
12:03	kilon	i thought you mean fp as free pascal
12:03	kilon	*meant
12:03	Sgeo	I should do something productive
12:03	fractaloop	Sgeo: A noble goal for early Monday
12:04	arrdem	pfft productivity....
12:04	doomlord	i'm a c/c++ programmer just looking to try a different language; keeping my mind open. would be nice to write something in something else.
12:04	doomlord	of course it might just be that the combo of c++ (with embedded lua) isn't broken
12:05	kilon	learning new languages is fun
12:05	fractaloop	I'm a C/C++/Java coder and moved to Ruby
12:05	fractaloop	It was a relatively easy transition. Clojure/Lisp is another beast entirely
12:05	kilon	i learned smalltalk and lisp this year and brush up my pascal knowledge too after 10 years
12:05	arrdem	doomlord: I would say if you really want to try something else, look at using Scheme instead of Lua for scripting within C/C++ apps
12:05	doomlord	its the macros that appeal to me in lisp
12:06	casion	fractaloop: I tried ruby before clojure and it was just… very strange to me
12:06	arrdem	it's not really clean, but doing Scheme/Clisp -> C bindings is easiser that extending the JVM and hooking in from Clojure
12:06	doomlord	fair enough
12:06	casion	I was constantly confused by why things were done how they are in ruby
12:07	Sgeo	casion, if you try Smalltalk, Ruby will anger you even more
12:07	doomlord	i can see the sense to c++ & scheme
12:07	fractaloop	casion: Convention is a lot of it. Ruby basically lets you do anything which is too powerful a tool for many coders. People go crazy implementing harebrained software that is impossible to unwind
12:08	dustingetz	is that any different than macros?
12:08	fractaloop	I'm learning Clojure mainly because because of Storm and Pallet
12:08	arrdem	what fractaloop said. A good friend of mine spent several hellish months debugging a Ruby webserver that used eval all over the place and was almost impossible to unwind
12:08	gfredericks	dustingetz: quite. macros are compile-time
12:08	gfredericks	dustingetz: their effects are a one-time thing and can be completely laid bare with macroexpand
12:09	casion	fractaloop: that's sort of the feeling I got. There was a lot of times I thought people were solving problems that didn't exist as well
12:09	gfredericks	compare with the ruby approach of "redefine anything at any time from anywhere"
12:09	Sgeo	arrdem, it's eval that's the problem? So I guess Tcl would be similar?
12:09	casion	a lot of times I'd ask questions and be told that's not really what I want to do because in the future I _may_ want to do something else
12:09	casion	that mindset is on vhe verge of infuriating for someone coming from C
12:10	doomlord	after using various combinations of #defines & templates in c++ i figure lisp macros would probably do that sort of thing more elegantly... declaring structures with serialization & UI definitons embedded, that sort of thing
12:10	casion	I've come to love clojure because you can embrace abstraction, or ignore it when it doesn't make sense… and that's OK
12:11	doomlord	lisps the macros are the draw, but i also really like the way type inference works in haskell(& ml?)
12:11	fractaloop	casion: Yea, I work someone that uses the metaprogramming shit all the time. It fucks our code up and makes it untestable. So obnoxious.
12:11	dustingetz	why do they use it?
12:11	dustingetz	what are their thoughts?
12:11	fractaloop	Hence why I'm in #clojure and not #ruby =P
12:11	gfredericks	fractaloop: have you ever seen `def method_missing _; nil; end`?
12:12	fractaloop	gfredericks: Thankfully no.
12:12	casion	fractaloop: 90% of the time I want to do something, I want to do that. Not the 50 other things that may also be related to that
12:12	gfredericks	I don't think that's even possible in clojure
12:12	dustingetz	i mean, some of my OOP colleagues say the same thing about FP code
12:12	casion	seems ruby programmers always want to make sure their code can do those 50 other things, even if it will never happen
12:12	arrdem	Sgeo: perhapse, I have no experience with either directly. From the accounting I heard the issue was more that the Rubyist who perpetrated the server to start with used eval all over the place and did inline code generation which made debugging much harder than it needed to be because the server was constantly injecting more code into itself
12:12	fractaloop	casion: Trufax
12:13	casion	I messed with python a bit as well, and I found it rather pleasant except it was just too ridiculously slow
12:14	fractaloop	Hehehe
12:14	casion	maybe there's something where python is reasonable or 'fast'
12:14	fractaloop	I was always scared of Python because of the 'pythonic way'
12:14	casion	but everything I do, it's slow as fuck
12:15	casion	fractaloop: I actually liked that. I like that clojure has a similar emphasis on producing idiomatic code as well
12:15	arrdem	what with JVM bootup overhead I find that my Clojure scripts really aren't faster than my Cpython equivalents
12:15	arrdem	but that's __only__ for once-off scripts. Big stuff Clojure and Java are way faster
12:15	casion	arrdem: most everything I do is lots of crunching on 1 process
12:15	arrdem	casion: yerp. and python is really slow at that I can't deny it.
12:18	fractaloop	Have y'all read Pragmatic Programmers "Programming Clojure" >
12:18	fractaloop	?
12:18	casion	fractaloop: yes
12:18	arrdem	with p>.85
12:18	casion	that was my favorite clojure book
12:18	fractaloop	I like the PP. Was considering it's purchase
12:19	fractaloop	Bosses wont buy it for me though because we're all Ruby apparently =(
12:19	casion	I should also complain about ruby being slow, just to be fair
12:19	casion	so consider that done :)
12:20	S11001001	everything's slow
12:20	S11001001	except C. C is too fast
12:20	arrdem	S11001001: RAW METAL OR NOTHING
12:20	casion	ruby and python take slow to a new level of wtf
12:20	jrajav	cue jokes about assembly and/or magnets
12:20	Iceland_jack	casion: and yet they are used so what of it
12:21	casion	Iceland_jack: they're slow?
12:21	fractaloop	Yea...Ruby is painfully slow >_<
12:21	casion	not sure what else would be 'of it'
12:22	Iceland_jack	It goes to show that obviously it doesn't matter that much for many tasks
12:22	casion	and it does for some
12:23	Sgeo	Is Common Lisp optimized for speed faster than Clojure?
12:23	casion	CL is usually a good bit faster than clojure
12:24	casion	fairly sure 'always' would apply
12:24	arrdem	Sgeo: it should be... CL can build straight to C and then benifit from ICC etc. while we're stuck with the JVM JIT
12:24	S11001001	straight to assembly
12:25	S11001001	I think there are more CLs that don't go through C than do
12:25	arrdem	because lack of libraries and lein
12:25	fractaloop	Because Java is badass.
12:25	fractaloop	Or at least, helpful.
12:25	Sgeo	Hmm. It's not very functional, and lack of libraries, and quicklisp is a sort of closed environment
12:25	lucian	CL also tends to have crappy GCs
12:25	lucian	the jvm is a pain in the ass, though
12:26	Sgeo	Want to put something on QuickLisp? You have to contact the maintainer of QL, and when they add it, it will usually be a month before it becomes available
12:26	arrdem	I was on CL before Clojure.. and my first reaction to the CLJ world was "holy **** a Lisp with actual usable libraries"
12:27	arrdem	besides, we get all the Java libraries for free
12:27	Sgeo	Although cl-cont > delimc and I'm guessing that whatever monadic libaries exist for CL > the Clojure monadic stuff
12:27	doomlord	i wold have thought the JVM would have had the most developped garbage collectors,due to how widespread it is no idea in practice though
12:28	lucian	doomlord: it does tend to have the best GCs, yes
12:28	lucian	most languages don't even let you choose
12:29	doomlord	i really like the idea of seperating front & back end
12:29	lucian	s/languages/runtimes/
12:29	doomlord	like with LLVM for c++
12:30	casion	Sgeo: why don't you just use haskell?
12:31	Sgeo	Easy macros and easy to change running programs
12:31	Sgeo	There is Template Haskell for macros, and there are tricks to change running Haskell programs if you're careful about designing it, but...
12:31	casion	Sgeo: seems like you spend more time trying to recreate things that haskell has than the time those things would save you
12:31	doomlord	nice, clojure can destructure function arguments
12:32	kilon	pascal is as fast as C too
12:32	Sgeo	Don't underestimate my desire for easy macros.
12:32	antares_	ohpauleez: heya
12:33	ohpauleez	antares_: Hello
12:33	antares_	so, clojure-doc.org is "officially" announced and ready for others to join: https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/clojure/ixtfzCHCOWI
12:33	dnolen	doomlord: you can destructure anywhere where binding is supported - let, fn args, binding, doseq, etc
12:35	magnars	idiomatic way of taking a list of maps with an id [ {:id 1} {:id 2} ] and turn it into a map on those ids { 1 {:id 1} 2 {:id 2} } ?
12:36	arrdem	,(let [s [{:id 1} {:id 2}]] (zip-map (map #(:id %) s) s))
12:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: zip-map in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:36	arrdem	damn
12:36	arrdem	,(let [s [{:id 1} {:id 2}]] (zipmap (map #(:id %) s) s))
12:36	clojurebot	{2 {:id 2}, 1 {:id 1}}
12:36	magnars	arrdem: many thanks!
12:37	arrdem	magnars: no problem.. surprised it worked, first time I've used zipmap XP
12:37	antares_	ohpauleez: I'm curious if you have thoughts about the suggested workflow and if clojure/core will or won't have any recommendations
12:37	Sgeo	#(:id %) isn't that just :id
12:38	arrdem	Sgeo: maybe...
12:38	arrdem	,(let [s [{:id 1} {:id 2}]] (zipmap (map :id s) s))
12:38	clojurebot	{2 {:id 2}, 1 {:id 1}}
12:38	arrdem	evidently
12:38	dnolen_	Sgeo: cl-cont isn't that great, it's simple code walker - delimc is exactly the same.
12:38	Sgeo	dnolen_, but I imagine that cl-cont doesn't have that bug where you must bring all symbols directly in
12:39	dnolen_	Sgeo: I don't know, I never used it serious. I personally never cared for CL package control.
12:41	ohpauleez	antares_: I'd make the landing page a little easier to navigate (Where category listing link to the doc collections they contain). I think workflow is fine - I don't think clojure/core has any opinion about the workflow, so I think you're all set to go
12:43	antares_	ohpauleez: understood. The UI certainly needs work. We already have some ideas about how to make it a bit better. But writing content is by far more important right now.
12:43	casion	antares_: how will discussion about article content be handled?
12:43	antares_	casion: on the mailing list and in pull requests
12:45	casion	antagon: on the clojure mailing list or is there a cds list?
12:45	antares_	casion: on the main Clojure ML
12:46	antares_	there will be no separate list because docs is a problem of every clojure user and the process must be visible to everybody
12:46	antares_	I also always disliked the closed clojure-dev jazz
12:46	casion	antares_: do you think it would be useful to link to article discussions on the article page?
12:46	antares_	casion: maybe. Don't focus on details yet, we need to start writing the content.
12:47	antares_	everything other than writing and/or making it easier for people to start writing is secondary right now
12:47	casion	antares_: I was planning on contributing, but I was curious how things would be handled if someone says 'maybe this is better?' and I wanted to participate in such a discussion
12:49	antares_	casion: I think it's not any different from similar discussions about code
12:50	casion	antares_: my experience with any form of online collaboration is extremely limited, so forgive if I'm asking a question that seems overtly basic
12:50	antares_	casion: no problem. I understand that. And collaborative writing and editing is difficult because there are no fast and hard rules about "what is good".
12:50	casion	I've worked alone, or in person with another 1-2 people since the 90s… this is all rather new to me :)
12:51	antares_	but there is no way around this
12:52	casion	I guess I'll need to explore the pull system on github more
12:53	ohpauleez	casion: Writers also are in #clojuredocs
12:53	ohpauleez	you can always ask such questions there
12:53	casion	excellent
13:12	uvtc	casion: ping
13:13	pandeiro	anyone know if lein-cljsbuild can be configured to produce a vanilla js file w/ just goog-closure and clojurescript core?
13:14	dnolen	pandeiro: you just mean no optimizations right?
13:17	antares_	mpenet: sorry for my comment on your CDS PR but I really think Casyn is not a library newcomers will be able to use.
13:18	antares_	cassaforte has its issues, but it is not different from clojure.java.jdbc and something like monger or neocons in the way you use it
13:19	pandeiro	dnolen: yeah i need to inject the clojurescript api into a phantomjs-rendered page, so i just want a vanilla representation to be compiled from the same version of cljs that lein-cljsbuild is using
13:20	pandeiro	...i can do that manually by creating a dummy ns with no forms and then compile it; wanted to know if there is some other way
13:27	wingy	clj-http doesn't seem to parse the request json body for you .. should i use cheshire to do that?
13:27	dakrone	wingy: clj-http will if you ask it to
13:27	dakrone	otherwise, you can do it manually with cheshire if you'd like
13:29	sundbp	question: let's say i want a multimethod foo with implementations for 2 different "situations". i define the multimethod (defmulti) in namespace x, then i add the 2 defmethods in namespace y and z that are related to the 2 sitautions. does that 1) work? and 2) is it weird to spread defmethods for the same defmulti over several namespaces?
13:29	mpenet	antares_: That is fine, I understand your goals, and why you'd prefer that.
13:30	gfredericks	sundbp: that ability is half of the point of multimethods
13:31	wingy	dakrone: :as :json did the trick
13:31	wingy	I should RTFM
13:31	sundbp	mpenet, gfredericks: good!
13:32	antares_	mpenet: cool. that page certainly is somewhat controversial for library developers. But "just" users benefit from it dearly.
13:32	sundbp	was just making sure i hadn't misunderstood it completely
13:33	mpenet	antares_: yes, I understand we don't want it to become a listing of all clj libs out there
13:33	antares_	so, who wants to write the books guide :) it's the lowest hanging fruit!
13:34	antares_	just list all the 6-7 books out there, with links to Kindle/PDF/ePub editions in popular stores, and mention what versions of Clojure they cover
13:35	sundbp	slight follow up: if i then in namespace A require ns x, but not y and z - will invocations of the multimethod in A be obvlivious to the implementations that exist in x and y? obviously y and z need to get "loaded" somehow before they're known, but is it independent or tied to namespace require/use.
13:36	gfredericks	there's nothing magic about it; so whenever the ns the defmethods are in is loaded normally
13:37	sundbp	gfredericks: ok, so for namespace A to invoke the multimethod and be able to dispatch to the implementations in y and z it needs to reference x, y and z.
13:38	magnars	I have a list of ~20k items that I want to make a map of. I'm reducing over a transient map to do this. However, I get the wonderful OutOfMemoryError Java heap space ... any ideas?
13:38	gfredericks	sundbp: yep
13:38	gfredericks	sundbp: or at least you need to be confident that they're already loaded somehow or another
13:39	sundbp	gfredericks: excellent. then it is indeed no magic or special things surrounding it and initial intutiotion holds. thanks for verifying
13:39	gfredericks	magnars: not without seeing the code
13:39	sundbp	gfredericks: (not in front of repl so couldn't verify it manually)
13:40	gfredericks	sundbp: maybe it is a lazy seq of large objects and you run out of memory while realizing it?
13:40	magnars	gfredericks: http://pastie.org/5019878
13:43	gfredericks	sundbp: sorry confused you with magnars :)
13:44	gfredericks	magnars: that's pretty straightforward. The only idea I have is the one I missent to sundbp above.
13:44	magnars	gfredericks: ah, yes, it is a lazy seq of objects - they're not very large, but they are plentiful. However, I didn't run out of heap space prior to trying this mapping. However, I guess working with these sizes I should expect to increase the heap size.
13:48	Frozenlock	Once my app is in a jar, when I execute it, it exports files to my home folder. How could I export to the same folder as the .jar?
13:51	Frozenlock	oh right, that's a java thing, not clojure
14:23	thorbjornDX	is it common to have a side-effecting function that takes in some map, produces a side-effect, then returns the same map that was passed in? I feel like I'm breaking some golden rule or something
14:24	arrdem	thorbjornDX: I don't think so... it's unusual but I don't see it as evil
14:24	nDuff	thorbjornDX: Do you have a ! in the name to indicate that you're side-effecting?
14:25	nDuff	thorbjornDX: ...if so, I'd be OK with it.
14:25	thorbjornDX	nDuff: I will in 5 minutes :)
14:27	thorbjornDX	arrdem: my code flow looks something like this (-> (func-that-produces-map) dosomethingwithit! dosomethingelsewithit! ...)
14:28	arrdem	(doc doto)
14:28	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
14:28	arrdem	,(doc doto)
14:28	clojurebot	"([x & forms]); Evaluates x then calls all of the methods and functions with the value of x supplied at the front of the given arguments. The forms are evaluated in order. Returns x. (doto (new java.util.HashMap) (.put \"a\" 1) (.put \"b\" 2))"
14:28	arrdem	not wrong, just not how I would think to structure it.
14:29	thorbjornDX	arrdem: ah, I think this is what I'm looking for
14:30	thorbjornDX	arrdem: thanks for the info :)
14:31	arrdem	thorbjornDX: no problem. #clojure is where I found that one too, just passing it on
15:04	wingy	dont complect!
15:05	wingy	made me use cheshire and form-decode to decode the response body from clj-http instead
15:06	tomoj	is there any reason for the analyzer to add :require-macros/:use-macros ns's to deps for analysis?
15:07	tomoj	this means if you have (:require-macros [foo.bar :as b]) in foo/bar.cljs, you get a stackoverflow
15:07	tomoj	(when-not macros? (swap! deps conj lib)) seems to fix it but can't tell if it breaks something else
15:08	SegFaultAX\|work	wingy: I made this for you: http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/28015188.jpg
15:08	Iceland_jack	haha
15:08	SegFaultAX\|work	Re: Complect ^
15:08	wingy	SegFaultAX\|work: i dont get it though
15:08	SegFaultAX\|work	wingy: :O have you not seen Mean Girls?
15:08	wingy	no :)
15:09	SegFaultAX\|work	That movie is hilarious.
15:09	SegFaultAX\|work	Even if you're not a 14 year old girl.
15:10	jrajav	Or a 22 year old girl trying to pass as a 14 year old girl
15:10	dnolen	tomoj: hmm file a ticket - I don't see any reason for macro files to be considered for analysis.
15:11	arrdem	SegFaultAX\|work: oh gods that movie
15:11	wingy	or a 27 year old guy trying to be a 14 year old girl
15:11	SegFaultAX\|work	arrdem: Are you a fan as well?
15:11	arrdem	there was no part of that movie where I didn't want to shoot myself
15:12	SegFaultAX\|work	Haha. Isn't that the point?
15:12	wingy	now i have to watch it
15:54	bonega	Anyone know why Heroku's foreman ignores crossover-cljs? Thought it did something like "lein compile :all"
15:56	tomoj	bonega: see https://github.com/heroku/heroku-buildpack-clojure/blob/master/bin/compile
15:57	ivan	so have you guys discovered the OQL Console in VisualVM? It is pretty cool.
15:59	zilti	When I try to compile a sample cljs, all I get from "lein cljsbuild once" is "Could not locate clojure/instant__init.class or clojure/instant.clj on classpath", what could be the reasons for that?
16:00	cemerick	bonega: depends on what buildback rev you use, but you can override whatever the default is with a bin/build script.
16:01	bonega	from what I can see it should do something like "lein with-profile production compile :all"
16:01	zilti	Oh. I suddenly have clojure 1.3 in the deps... hmm
16:02	bonega	doing it manually includes the crossovers, but not with foreman
16:03	bonega	using a :hook [lein-cljsbuild]
16:04	bonega	:hooks [leiningen.cljsbuild]
16:04	akhudek	zilti: try https://github.com/xeqi/lein-pedantic
16:04	akhudek	I almost feel the above plugin should be default
16:04	duck1123	it's a tad too pedantic IMO
16:05	akhudek	perhaps, but knowing the actual versions of libraries you are using seems pretty crucial for reliability
16:06	duck1123	if it had a warn-only option, it would be more useful
16:07	Sgeo	Would be nice if two different versions of libraries could be used at the same time
16:07	xeqi	duck1123: set :pedantic :warn in the project or user profile
16:07	nDuff	Sgeo: For Java libraries, that can be done if you're in an OSGi container.
16:08	nDuff	Sgeo: ...for Clojure libraries, even in OSGi, not so much, unless you have two completely separate Clojure environments.
16:08	zilti	akhudek: Thanks!
16:08	duck1123	xeqi: very nice. I didn't see that when I first checked it out
16:08	nDuff	(but OSGi _can_ be used to maintain separate Clojure environments within one JVM. In theory, anyhow).
16:09	Sgeo	PermGen?
16:09	xeqi	duck1123: I think I added it in 0.0.3
16:10	zilti	cssgen caused the problem
16:10	xeqi	for anyone using it, I just released 0.0.5
16:11	xeqi	cemerick: do you still have your project with the args error? could you check ^ and see if it still happens?
16:13	xeqi	akhudek: I'm glad to hear you find it useful
16:15	akhudek	xeqi: thanks for your work on it! I have some projects with pretty big dependency lists that it really helped sort out
16:17	duck1123	does lein-pedantic let me know when exclusions are no longer needed?
16:17	cemerick	xeqi: gah, I can't repro now.
16:18	cemerick	weird :-/
16:18	bonega	Is there a way to choose :builds in :cljsbuild using :profile?
16:18	xeqi	duck1123: nope
16:18	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
16:18	xeqi	cemerick: heh, thanks for trying
16:19	cemerick	I've upgraded the pedantic dep though; will make noise if anything else crops up
16:25	johnmn3	good day
16:25	zilti	Hmm now that's weird. lein-pedantic tells me that I have a ring/ring-servlet dependency which I don't have and I can't find that dependency in any of my dependencies...
16:26	johnmn3	anyone working on clojure on android?
16:26	dnolen	johnmn3: there are few people that do, not sure if they hangout much on IRC
16:27	johnmn3	dnolen: thanks. do you know if it is usable to make apps with?
16:28	dnolen	johnmn3: seems so, but from what I understand Clojure is a bit demanding in terms of GC so it doesn't work well for some kinds of apps you might want to do.
16:29	nDuff	johnmn3: from what I understand, clojurescript is more appropriate on Android at this point
16:29	nDuff	(using phonegap or another mechanism for doing Android apps in JavaScript)
16:29	johnmn3	nDuff: that makes sense
16:31	cemerick	zilti: do `lein deps :tree`, and you'll find out where it's coming from
16:31	zilti	cemerick: Well, I'll try that too but I found out it happens only when using "lein ring uberwar", not when using "lein deps" so it must be caused there
16:33	cemerick	zilti: makes sense; wars are servlet-specific, so lein-ring adds the corresponding dep when producing any kind of war: https://github.com/weavejester/lein-ring/blob/master/src/leiningen/ring/war.clj#L224
16:34	duck1123	xeqi: Using the latest version, it's complaining about my cljsbuild deps, but I don't have that in my project. (I have lein-cljsbuild as a plugin, but I don't specify cljsbuild directly)
16:35	tomoj	&(class (empty (clojure.lang.ArraySeq/create (into-array [1 2 3]))))
16:35	lazybot	⇒ clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
16:35	xeqi	duck1123: its probably added by the plugin
16:35	tomoj	is that correct?
16:35	xeqi	zilti, duck1123: plugins adding dependencies does keep lein-pedantic from being as nice as I want :/
16:36	cemerick	way of the world, it seems
16:38	xeqi	yeah, I wonder if I can do some funny middleware stuff to track it and give a different message; maybe a superset of xeqi/lein-pedantic#7
16:38	lazybot	identifying parent sources of dependencies -- https://github.com/xeqi/lein-pedantic/issues/7 is open
16:40	wingy	off topic from clojure: does anyone here use the Twitter API (https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/creating-signature)
16:41	wingy	it looks very intimidating to implement it in clj or other langs
16:42	duck1123	wingy: oauth can be a pain, but there are some good clojure oauth libs out there
16:43	wingy	duck1123: i found this https://github.com/mattrepl/clj-oauth
16:43	Bronsa	https://github.com/Bronsa/neurotic
16:44	wingy	duck1123: facebook login was a breeze to implement .. dont get why its that hard for twitter
16:44	wingy	perhaps its not using oauth2 ?
16:45	duck1123	no, 1.0a
16:46	wingy	ok
16:46	wingy	facebook is using oauth 2 .. perhaps that is why its so simple
16:47	wingy	that library link i pasted uses twitter as an example .. lets hope it will work :)
16:47	devth	find myself doing: (some (fn [x] (when (re-find #"foo" x) x)) ["this is a bar" "this is a foo"]) lately (just using regex as an example). notice the anon fn has to use when and return the actual value since `some` returns the result of the matching fn instead of the value that matched. better way?
16:48	TimMc	tomoj: That is a little surprising...
16:48	duck1123	wingy: https://github.com/mattrepl/clojure-twitter
16:49	tomoj	TimMc: agreed. seems pretty consistent though that (empty seq) is ()
16:49	TimMc	tomoj: The docs for empty say "the same category" -- maybe that means list vs. vector vs. ....
16:50	TimMc	so empty is preserving the access semantics, but not the JVM type.
16:50	tomoj	yeah makes sense
16:50	wingy	duck1123: looks nice
16:50	wingy	but i prefer making raw http requests
16:51	duck1123	wingy: at the very least, it's a reference
16:51	wingy	yeah
16:56	callen	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5606 k, what the hell is going on? Why am I getting an NPE?
16:57	callen	is it because I'm multiplying a non-number?
16:57	duck1123	when n = 0, factorial returns nil
16:57	callen	n/m, fixed it.
16:57	callen	duck1123: yeah, I figured that's why I asked about the non-number
16:58	callen	duck1123: added an else case and it works fine now. Thank you.
17:13	bonega	Not completely done, but feel free to check out my Clojurescript Tetris running at Heroku: http://clojure-tetris.herokuapp.com/
17:14	bonega	And thanks everybody for answering questions
17:15	fractaloop	bonega: impressive
17:15	ordnungswidrig	bonega: good work!
17:16	tomoj	sweet
17:16	dnolen	bonega: nice!
17:16	akhudek	ibdknox: is it possible to run light table without X11? e.g. run on a local dev server and connect to it from other hosts?
17:20	bonega	thanks, I will try to do a short writeup on the mailinglist
17:20	bonega	later
17:23	Sgeo	Hmm
17:23	Sgeo	Maybe I could fork that to make the Tetris-like game I made in my game programming class in a more accessible language
17:25	bonega	Do you mean forking just the clojurescript part or? Go for it anyhow
17:26	Sgeo	I don't entirely understand Clojurescript
17:26	Sgeo	Does the game require a server-side component, or is it all client-side? If the latter, how does the Clojure code get run?
17:27	bonega	all clientside
17:28	bonega	basically all the clojure code is compiled to javascript
17:28	Sgeo	main.clj looks like Compojure code, which is serverside
17:28	bonega	ah, yeah sorry
17:28	bonega	but that's mostly to get a server running
17:29	tomoj	more puzzling is core.clj
17:29	bonega	it's not a part of the tetris program by my definition, just there to serve some javascript to a clent
17:30	tomoj	why doesn't the compiler blow up when it doesn't find core.cljs?
17:30	bonega	core.clj is crossover
17:30	bonega	originally a standard clojure project
17:30	tomoj	aha
17:30	gfredericks	so being a crossover it is also a cljs file
17:30	bonega	I share code with :crossover in lein-cljsbuild
17:31	tomoj	gfredericks: thanks for the CLJS-383 patch, saved my day
17:31	bonega	it automatically gets moved to a special folder and then compiled to js with the rest of the cljs
17:31	gfredericks	tomoj: yeah? you just applied it locally?
17:33	tomoj	yeah I've been using HEAD for.. ever :/
17:33	gfredericks	tomoj: I'm curious about the mechanics of using your own cljs with lein-cljsbuild because I haven't been able to
17:34	tomoj	I almost feel like it would be wrong to tell you
17:34	tomoj	I just have :source-paths ["src/clj" "vendor/clojurescript/src/clj" "vendor/clojurescript/src/cljs"]
17:34	gfredericks	hm; fascinating
17:34	gfredericks	thanks :)
17:35	gfredericks	how did the issue manifest for you?
17:35	gfredericks	just curious
17:38	dnolen	gfredericks: btw, CLJS-383 - on the ticket what do you mean about errors under advanced compilation?
17:38	tomoj	I hadn't actually run into it but I have a function with arglists ([x] [x y] [x y z] [x y z & ws])
17:38	tomoj	the last piece is (apply f x y z ws)
17:39	Sgeo	What's the point of having ` without ~ and ~@ ?
17:39	tomoj	so I guess if I had passed the right number of args in my test with +, it would have blown up
17:39	Sgeo	(Reading about cljs)
17:40	gfredericks	tomoj: are you set up to run script/test in the cljs project?
17:40	gfredericks	I only ran with v8
17:41	gfredericks	Sgeo: it expands symbols into their fully-qualified form
17:41	gfredericks	which is nearly always what you want when you write a macro in one ns and use it in another
17:42	gfredericks	Sgeo: interestingly it's possible to use ~ and ~@ without `
17:42	tomoj	gfredericks: yes, but also only for v8
17:42	gfredericks	tomoj: so when you run it with my patch do you get any failures?
17:43	tomoj	running
17:44	tomoj	do I have to tell it to try advanced or does it try automatically?
17:44	gfredericks	I never told it anything special
17:45	tomoj	https://gist.github.com/c3d73e2fa792f89672b3
17:46	gfredericks	tomoj: yeah I believe that's what I saw
17:46	gfredericks	tomoj: had no idea how to investigate it
17:47	gfredericks	tomoj: also the spooky thing was how it went away when I changed the added tests from ABC to ABCB
17:48	gfredericks	but maybe that's just advanced compilation being unpredictable
17:49	dnolen	gfredericks: I doubt that
17:49	gfredericks	dnolen: which part?
17:49	tomoj	hard to imagine debugging that!
17:49	dnolen	gfredericks: advanced compilation being unpredictable
17:50	dnolen	gfredericks: I suspect this may have something to do w/ optimizations that kick in during when :static-fns true, which implicit under :advanced
17:50	gfredericks	dnolen: you must be better at predicting than me
17:50	dnolen	gfredericks: tomoj: can you all try :simple w/ :static-fns true ?
17:52	tomoj	looks like you can just modify line 10 of script/test
17:53	dnolen	tomoj: yep
17:53	tomoj	no exception :'(
18:04	tomoj	the error seems to occur on line 1373-ish of the tests
18:05	tomoj	the (assert (= (meta (with-meta (reify IFoo (foo [this] :foo)) {:foo :bar})) {:foo :bar}))
18:08	dnolen	tomoj: hmm, I'll try looking into it later.
18:18	wingy	how do i create a timestamp in clj?
18:19	wingy	(java.util.Date.) gives me a formatted date string
18:19	wingy	or perhaps not a string but not the timestamp
18:19	antares_	,(System/currentTimeMillis)
18:19	gfredericks	wingy: looks like a timestampish thing to me
18:19	clojurebot	1349734381827
18:20	gfredericks	wingy: the java.util.Date has millisecond resolution at least
18:20	gfredericks	or it does on my machine anyways
18:20	wingy	gfredericks: how? it returns this to me: "2012-10-08T22:13:43.570-00:00"
18:20	gfredericks	I have clojure 1.4 and it prints as: #inst "2012-10-08T22:14:32.898-00:00"
18:21	gfredericks	wingy: that's a bunch of time info in there; not sure how you're interpreting it
18:21	wingy	but i need the seconds since Unix Epoch 1970
18:21	gfredericks	okay then definitely antares_'s suggestion :)
18:21	wingy	yeah
18:22	gfredericks	I mistinterpreted "a formatted date string"
18:22	wingy	"This value should be the number of seconds since the Unix epoch at the point the request is generated, and should be easily generated in most programming languages." antares answer gave me ms
18:22	gfredericks	tomoj: oh weirder; I just ran the tests on a different machine with v8 and got no errors o_O
18:22	gfredericks	(did not modify the advanced settings)
18:23	gfredericks	&(/ (System/currentTimeMillis) 1000)
18:23	lazybot	⇒ 67486735241/50
18:23	gfredericks	er
18:23	antares_	wingy: you can get that from a java.util.Date instance, too: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/util/Date.html#getTime(), but it is in milliseconds everywhere
18:23	gfredericks	&(div (System/currentTimeMillis) 1000)
18:23	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: div in this context
18:23	gfredericks	&(quot (System/currentTimeMillis) 1000)
18:23	lazybot	⇒ 1349734722
18:23	wingy	yeah
18:24	antares_	so you have to divide by 1000 like gfredericks shows
18:24	wingy	yeah
18:30	tomoj	gfredericks: strange
18:55	doomlord	does the clojure compiler do much type-inference (immutability making it easier?).. eg does a small literal vector boil down to a tuple and will large homogeneous vectors forgo per item type information
18:58	antares_	doomlord: it does some type inference but not for collection contents. There is no special tuple type on the JVM.
19:01	doomlord	i was hoping tuples are anonymous classes/structs .. (i dont even know..does the jvm have PlainOldData in addition to classes..)
19:03	antares_	doomlord: it has primitives (int, long, etc) and array types, everything else is classes
19:03	hiredman	and, at the jvm, level, there are no anonymous classes
19:04	doomlord	it could generate names i suppose
19:04	hiredman	anonymous classes are a mechanism in the java language
19:04	hiredman	doomlord: right, which is what javac does
19:05	hiredman	clojure's reify and proxy do the same
19:06	SegFaultAX\|work	hiredman: Does the JVM just generate a name for an anonymous class?
19:06	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/tuples is a project for providing something like a cross between tuples and vectors
19:06	hiredman	SegFaultAX\|work: no, the java compiler does
19:07	hiredman	some.package.Foo$1 etc
19:07	hiredman	the jvm just knows about named classes
19:07	SegFaultAX\|work	Interesting! Today I learned...
19:08	SegFaultAX\|work	hiredman: Is there ever a time where that might actually matter?
19:08	hiredman	SegFaultAX\|work: the tuples link?
19:08	SegFaultAX\|work	hiredman: No, the implementation detail of anon classes.
19:09	antares_	SegFaultAX\|work: if you are inspecting things in the debugger, it will matter to you
19:09	hiredman	I don't see that it really makes any kind of difference
19:09	antares_	technically, probably not, anonymous classes are not really special
19:09	SegFaultAX\|work	I see. Interesting.
19:09	antares_	so, the only special thing about them is that they have generated names
19:10	SegFaultAX\|work	Wow, that tuple implementation is fast.
19:10	doomlord	how does the tuple imlementation work, broadly..
19:11	hiredman	it generates classes with fields, and gives each field indexed access
19:12	hiredman	it also generates an implementation of most of the interfaces that vectors implement for the tuples, so they are sort of vector like
19:13	SegFaultAX\|work	hiredman: That is one big 'ol macro. :)
19:14	hiredman	based on the idea that, while clojure's vectors are pretty fast (using a tree of nodes and arrays) the jvm is more likely to recognize and optimize a single instance + fields
19:19	hiredman	anyway, I don't think tuples is particular that great, but it is an example of the kind of tricks you can play with clojure's interfaces and macros
19:27	arrdem	is there a clean way to get a subset of a map?
19:28	gfredericks	&(doc select-keys)
19:28	lazybot	⇒ "([map keyseq]); Returns a map containing only those entries in map whose key is in keys"
19:28	arrdem	(inc gfredericks )
19:28	lazybot	⇒ 3
19:29	arrdem	don't make me do it again....
19:30	gfredericks	eek! karma inflation!
19:31	arrdem	,(println "(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " gfredericks)")
19:31	clojurebot	( inc gfredericks)
19:31	arrdem	troll'df
19:31	gfredericks	"...back in my day, you could buy a leiningen feature for a nickel of karma!"
19:31	arrdem	,(println (str "(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " gfredericks)"))
19:31	clojurebot	(inc gfredericks)
19:31	lazybot	⇒ 10
19:32	arrdem	wat
19:32	gfredericks	oh the original one referred to "gfredericks " apparently
19:32	arrdem	(inc 3)
19:32	lazybot	⇒ 1
19:32	gfredericks	haha
19:32	gfredericks	(inc 3)
19:32	lazybot	⇒ 2
19:32	gfredericks	(inc 3)
19:32	lazybot	⇒ 3
19:32	gfredericks	(inc 3)
19:32	lazybot	⇒ 4
19:32	gfredericks	that's better
19:33	amalloy	you can tell gfredericks participates in "mess with the bots" games because his name with a space after it has already gotten karma twice
19:33	gfredericks	I really have no explanation for that
19:33	amalloy	gfredericks: really? i remember it happening
19:34	gfredericks	amalloy: then I have a poor memory
19:34	gfredericks	was it intentional?
19:34	amalloy	dweebs going like: ,(doseq [nick '(gfredericks whoever blah)] (println "(inc" nick ")"))
19:36	gfredericks	aw man I hate being a dweeb
19:36	arrdem	,; (doseq [x (range)] (println (str "(" (rand-nth ["inc" "dec"]) " gfredericks)")))
19:36	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
19:39	Sgeo	,(do); blah blah blah
19:39	clojurebot	nil
19:41	arrdem	clojurebot: everyone I see
19:41	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:41	arrdem	,(everyone-I-see)
19:41	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: everyone-I-see in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:42	hiredman	,clojure-version
19:42	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
19:42	Sgeo	,(println "foo" "bar")
19:42	clojurebot	foo bar
19:42	Sgeo	,(str "foo" "bar")
19:42	clojurebot	"foobar"
19:42	arrdem	,(use 'hiredman.clojurebot.core)(everyone-I-see)
19:42	clojurebot	arrdem: Pardon?
19:42	arrdem	dang.
19:44	TimMc	&(use 'hiredman.clojurebot.core) :-P
19:44	lazybot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate hiredman/clojurebot/core__init.class or hiredman/clojurebot/core.clj on classpath:
19:46	hyPiRion	,(use (symbol (str "hiredman.clojurebo" "t.core")))
19:46	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate hiredman/clojurebot/core__init.class or hiredman/clojurebot/core.clj on classpath: >
19:46	hiredman	,clojure-version ; take the hint
19:46	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
19:46	arrdem	,ns
19:46	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
19:47	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/project.clj#L5
19:49	arrdem	,(ns-map ns)
19:49	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, unchecked-inc-int #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int, ...}
19:49	amalloy	arrdem: would you mind doing your clojurebot tomfoolery in a PM with him?
19:49	arrdem	amalloy: I was just about to call it as a matter of fact
19:50	arrdem	and my appologies, I usually do
19:50	hyPiRion	,(everyone-I-see)
19:51	clojurebot	()
19:54	gfredericks	O_O
20:08	TimMc	heh
20:13	KaOSoFt	Hello. Is there a shared (as in accepted by a majority) set of public coding conventions for Clojure? You know, like variable and function naming, for instance.
20:14	gfredericks	if "public" means "documented somewhere" then that decreases the likelihood a lot
20:14	akhudek	KaOSoFt: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards
20:14	antares_	KaOSoFt: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Library+Coding+Standards. Function and local names are-dasherized.
20:15	gfredericks	decreases it to 100%
20:15	KaOSoFt	Déjà vu...
20:16	gfredericks	KaOSoFt: for any specific questions there are lots of people in #clojure with opinions they like sharing
20:16	KaOSoFt	Oh, my bad, I jumped to Volkmann’s tutorial without reading the whole Clojure documentation.
20:16	jrajav	ANY specific questions?
20:16	gfredericks	jrajav: totes
20:17	gfredericks	any question on any topic whatsoever never fails to elicit at least 4 simultaneous responses
20:18	KaOSoFt	gfredericks: that I just saw, heh. Thanks, I’ll keep digging through documentation and REPL in the meantime, while I get accostumed to functional programming, and Clojure, of course.
20:24	antares_	KaOSoFt: take a look at http://clojure-doc.org/articles/tutorials/getting_started.html. It's a work in progress but already pretty good for basics. And clojure-doc.org is where (hopefully) most of people will collaborate on tutorials and doc guides.
20:26	KaOSoFt	antares_: Hmm... is that one mentioned in the official documentation? I jumped to Volkmann’s because it was mentioned in the Getting Started of the official documenation.
20:26	KaOSoFt	In any case, thank you. I’ll check it out right away.
20:27	moses	Hi, how would I execute something like "cat foo \| anotherprocess" using sh from clojure.java.shell?
20:28	antares_	KaOSoFt: it is the next generation doc site that everyone can contribute to.
20:36	Mordus	Hi, I'm having trouble figuing out how to use clojure.java.shell http://pastie.org/5021571
20:38	brehaut	Mordus: perhaps look at https://github.com/Raynes/conch/
20:38	Mordus	Thank you brehaut.
20:56	technomancy	moses: I think you can provide an input string to sh
21:05	johnmn3	I have an off topic question about programming careers. Where should I ask? or anyone here willing to answer over PM?
21:06	SegFaultAX\|work	johnmn3: Just ask.
21:08	johnmn3	my sister wants to change careers and do programming. She has a biology degree. She's contemplating going back to school to get a masters in comp sci. I'm telling her to just learn programming on her own (with my help) and just try to break into the industry that way.
21:08	johnmn3	rather than taking a 30,000 student loan.
21:08	johnmn3	thoughts?
21:09	SegFaultAX\|work	johnmn3: I think you're on the right track. She also needs to determine if she a) likes writing software and probably more importantly b) is /capable/ of writing software.
21:09	SegFaultAX\|work	She might try it and find out that she hates it. Or sucks at it. Or both.
21:09	dlitvak	johnmn3: Comp Sci is not programming...
21:09	dlitvak	they are VERY VERY different
21:09	SegFaultAX\|work	johnmn3: Furthermore, since she already has a degree, she already has a good foundation in at least the lower level maths required by a standard CS degree.
21:10	dlitvak	a lot of brilliant programmers are not CS
21:10	akhudek	These are good comments. If she really does enjoy programming and can learn it, then the second most important thing is for her to show potential employers that she can actually do it.
21:10	SegFaultAX\|work	dlitvak: That's really a secondary point to his main question, I think.
21:10	akhudek	open source projects are one good way to do this
21:11	akhudek	also, she should absolutely do some of the new free online CS courses
21:11	dlitvak	SegFaultAX\|work: of course it is secondary... but it is not worth to get a CS degree if you dont feel like studying CS... and you just want to code
21:12	akhudek	I think there is a near complete CS curriculum that someone put together that consists only of open and free online courses.
21:13	johnmn3	okay, you all have pretty much affirmed my feelings on the matter
21:14	johnmn3	if she gets a job doing and likes it and wants to continue, perhaps her employer can pay for her masters
21:14	akhudek	dlitvak: respectfully disagree with that. CS theory is important for all good programmers. You don't have to do a formal program to learn the basics though.
21:15	dlitvak	akhudek: i actually study systems engineering and wish i studied CS... but... because i like CS... not because it is useful for me as a developer
21:16	dlitvak	as a developer i think that the most important thing to do... is be a nerd... love your tools... experiment
21:16	dlitvak	try to learn new things every dya
21:16	dlitvak	s/dya/day/
21:16	johnmn3	great comments guys. I just told my sister what you all said
21:16	johnmn3	appreciate it
21:17	dlitvak	last week i spent a couple of hours learning couchdb to make a wrapper for my document db ODM
21:17	dlitvak	and it was awesome to experiment with a new database
21:18	dlitvak	it was a pain on the butt... but it was awesome
21:18	antares_	johnmn3: I do have a degree in CS (and math) but for a lot of what is called "software development" today all you need is curiosity
21:19	antares_	johnmn3: curiosity and interest in building things, maybe. You can pick up HTML, CSS, and some JS + basic Web and networking skills in a few months, all without spending tens of thousands and being bored out of your mind.
21:19	johnmn3	okay
21:19	johnmn3	saying she gets those basic understandings down.. basic web dev
21:20	johnmn3	and a project or two on github
21:20	johnmn3	will a web dev shop hire her as an entry level developer, seeing as how she already has a biology degree
21:21	johnmn3	?
21:21	antares_	johnmn3: that's a good start. I don't think the biology degree will matter much but as long as she is willing to show that she can build at least some Web apps and does not slack off, I think it won't be a problem in a few months.
21:22	johnmn3	and of course, I'm going to make her learn clojure /clojurescript ;)
21:22	zackzackzack	Any particularly good services/open source projects for monitoring a noir server?
21:22	johnmn3	that way she knows how to do it right too :)
21:27	lancepantz	johnmn3: where is she have a friend starting a program in seattle she may be interested in
21:28	lancepantz	he also knows some similar programs in other places that may be good for her
21:28	johnmn3	actually, the DC Metropolitan area, but in the long run, she'll be looking for telework situations
21:29	antares_	johnmn3: http://railsgirls.com/dc
21:29	lancepantz	johnmn3: he suggested http://hungryacademy.com/
21:33	johnmn3	whats the catch? they pay you while you're in the academy? We'll look into it.
21:33	johnmn3	Awesome leads though, thanks!
21:33	johnmn3	she's looking at them now
21:34	lancepantz	buddy says they treat it like an internship at livingsocial at that specific one
21:34	lancepantz	but you dont have to work there afterwards
21:34	antares_	johnmn3: there is no catch. They filter out the best people, those people join their team (and they have a lot of time to evaluate them, too). It is way more reliable than getting someone (even with some experience) off the street.
21:35	lancepantz	anyways, my friend is in techstars starting a company that solves this problem, he knows the options very well if you'd like for me to put them in touch
21:37	johnmn3	That would be awesome!
21:38	johnmn3	please send any contact info to johnmn3@gmail.com
21:38	lancepantz	k, i'll send an introduction
21:40	antares_	johnmn3: there is also http://girldevelopit.com/chapters, no DC chapter as far as I can see but it's probably only a matter of time
21:44	johnmn3	This has been very instructive... very encouraging. My sister thanks you
21:44	lancepantz	johnmn3: I just sent you an introduction email
21:44	lancepantz	fwiw, i don't have a degree in engineering
21:44	lancepantz	and it's been a very successful career for me
21:45	lancepantz	i just like to learn stuff :/
21:45	lancepantz	and get a thrill out of it
21:45	johnmn3	good deal!
21:45	johnmn3	I'll be tying my sister into the conversation in my reply. Thanks a lot!
21:49	tomoj	&(loop [recur inc] (recur 4))
21:49	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
21:49	tomoj	I am actually very happy about that...
21:52	gfredericks	tomoj: recur is a special form so you shouldn't be able to shadow it
21:52	TimMc	,recur
21:52	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: recur in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:53	gfredericks	,(let [recur identity] (recur 5))
21:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 0 args, got: 1, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:53	tomoj	huh?
21:53	tomoj	,(recur)
21:53	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
21:53	TimMc	Fascinating.
21:54	gfredericks	&(recur)
21:54	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
21:54	TimMc	&(let [recur 5] recur)
21:54	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:54	gfredericks	the day we found out the bots were recurrable
21:54	TimMc	It's not a special form, it's a captured symbol.
21:54	tomoj	(eval '(recur))
21:54	gfredericks	TimMc: what?
21:55	TimMc	I think the loop macro captures it.
21:55	gfredericks	what makes you think that?
21:55	TimMc	&(loop [] (let [recur 5] recur))
21:55	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:55	gfredericks	special forms are only special at the front of a list
21:55	TimMc	Hrm.
21:55	gfredericks	&(loop [] (let [recur identity] (recur 10)))
21:55	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 0 args, got: 1
21:55	TimMc	&(let [do 5] do)
21:55	lazybot	⇒ nil
21:55	TimMc	^ not really
21:56	tomoj	do is a weirdo
21:56	gfredericks	what the heck is that
21:56	gfredericks	&(let [if 5] if)
21:56	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:56	TimMc	Mayyybe.
21:56	gfredericks	tomoj: what is different about do?
21:56	gfredericks	(&let [let* 10 fn* 12 loop* 16] [let* fn* loop*])
21:57	gfredericks	&(let [let* 10 fn* 12 loop* 16] [let* fn* loop*])
21:57	lazybot	⇒ [10 12 16]
21:57	Sgeo	,(special? 'do)
21:57	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: special? in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:57	tomoj	gfredericks: I dunno, I just remember it does that weird thing
21:57	tomoj	maybe it's really a bug
21:57	TimMc	So maybe loop only captures 'recur in call position.
21:58	gfredericks	TimMc: why not just it's a special form?
21:58	tomoj	&(let [do 5] [do])
21:58	lazybot	⇒ [5]
21:58	gfredericks	it works with fns too
21:58	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'do)
21:58	tomoj	what does "capture" mean?
21:58	clojurebot	true
21:58	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'if)
21:58	clojurebot	true
21:58	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'fn*)
21:58	clojurebot	true
21:58	gfredericks	TimMc: clojure.org/special_forms lists it
21:58	TimMc	Hrmph.
21:58	Sgeo	&(let [let* 5] let*])
21:58	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: ]
21:58	Sgeo	&(let [let* 5] let*)
21:58	lazybot	⇒ 5
21:59	Apage43	hmm
21:59	TimMc	I guess it has to be special, never mind.
21:59	gfredericks	,(doc special-symbol?)
21:59	Apage43	using aleph + compojure seems to be -working- okay, but it keeps printing out scary stack traces
21:59	clojurebot	"([s]); Returns true if s names a special form"
21:59	Sgeo	,(special-symbol? 'let)
21:59	clojurebot	false
21:59	TimMc	,(:added (meta (var special-symbol?)))
22:00	clojurebot	"1.0"
22:00	Sgeo	Wait, special symbols have vars?
22:00	gfredericks	TimMc: no matter how many decades I've spent with clojure there's always another thing in core I haven't heard of
22:00	Sgeo	That... I thought they didn't
22:00	tomoj	no, special-symbol? has a var
22:00	Sgeo	,#'do
22:00	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: do in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:00	Sgeo	Oh, derp
22:09	TimMc	Oh man, I'd forgotten how infuriating it is to try to debug lein plugins.
22:09	TimMc	(or build tools in general, really)
22:15	Apage43	… :/ I attached clojure.tools.trace to the problem fn and the problem went away
22:15	Apage43	oh, no I lied
22:15	Apage43	I commented out the problem and the problem went away, different thing
22:20	Sgeo	Ooh, clojure.tools.trace looks useful
22:20	Sgeo	I could use that
22:20	antares_	Apage43: that's the spirit!
22:21	Apage43	figured out my problem, didn't have a default route
22:21	amalloy	tomoj: capture, in the sense of implicitly imbuing a symbol with meaning
22:21	Apage43	so compojure was spitting back out an essentially empty ring response in the event nothing matched, and aleph doesn't like that
22:45	TimMc	technomancy: I tried updating lein-otf for lein 2.x, but I'm encountering an issue with trying to get the loader code into the uberjar. leiningen.uberjar/uberjar appears to ignore the project file I pass it...
22:45	TimMc	I know that doesn't make any sense.
22:51	zerokarmaleft	TimMc: thanks again btw, your map/reduce suggestion worked like a charm with some minor changes
22:51	TimMc	Great!
22:52	TimMc	technomancy: WTF, the project map's metadata is another project map? I'm so confused!
23:01	amalloy	TimMc: i don't really follow closely, but isn't lein2 brimming over with metadata? i think project maps contain in their metadata something like "what the project map looked like before profiles were applied"
23:06	TimMc	amalloy: Yes, that seems to be correct.
23:06	TimMc	The damnedest thing is that the resulting project.clj only has the old :main value in :without-profiles in the project's metadata, but it is somehow getting plucked out.
23:09	halgari	what's the best way to remove reflection from an aget on an Object array?
23:09	halgari	(aget (make-array 32) 1) ; causes a reflection warning
23:09	halgari	err....that should be: (aget (make-array Object 32) 1)
23:12	TimMc	I finally had to go stomping around in :without-profiles to get uberjar to see the right :main. :-(
23:29	callen	anyone set up an auto-reloading ring server in Clojure?
23:33	akhudek	the lien-ring plugin will do this automatically for dev and seems to work.
23:37	TimMc	halgari: Still need an answer?
23:38	TimMc	&(class (make-array Object 32))
23:38	lazybot	⇒ [Ljava.lang.Object;
23:38	TimMc	I believe ^"[Ljava.lang.Object;" should do it.
23:41	halgari	@TimMc that did it, thanks. I was missing the ; from the string
23:52	callen	akhudek: dev what?