#clojure – 2012-09-15

2012-09-15

00:00	tomoj	updated second gist with a better example
00:00	tomoj	(reduce-kv conj [] r) should not make sense, right?
00:00	tomoj	oh well, it could
00:02	tomoj	anyway, I again don't understand why rfn is there
00:02	Sgeo	I am seriously going to cry
00:04	tomoj	the only purpose for rfn I can imagine is reduce-kv, but ([ret k v] (f1 ret (f k v))) seems to violate reduce-kv's contract
00:11	Sgeo	Someone please explain to me in understandable language why algo.monads doesn't use Leiningen
01:04	Sgeo	Uh
01:05	Sgeo	Does Enclojure not support Leiningen, nor Clojure past 1.2?
01:06	Raynes	Enclojure is the least maintained of the Clojure environments.
01:06	Raynes	I'd be surprised if it worked at all.
01:08	Sgeo	:(
01:08	Sgeo	Ok, so what's well-maintained that isn't Counterclockwise?
01:08	Sgeo	I'm done fighting with Eclipse
01:08	cark	emacs =P
01:09	Raynes	Light table, but it's extremely new and missing things like one-off editing.
01:09	Sgeo	one-off editing
01:09	Sgeo	?
01:10	Raynes	As in you can't just pick a file on the filesystem and edit it.
01:10	cark	missing paredit too =(
01:10	Raynes	But yeah, Emacs, Vim, Light table...
01:10	amalloy	light table is well maintained? i don't think "maintained" is a good word for that
01:10	Raynes	cark: Yeah, I hope someone adds that to codemirror soon.
01:10	Raynes	amalloy: I'm pretty sure it qualifies.
01:11	cark	i think lighttable isn't quite ready for prime-time
01:11	Raynes	It isn't, but I'm not sure paredit is the reason.
01:11	Raynes	Paredit is something that has generally nothing to do with light table.
01:12	Raynes	As a matter of fact, nothing editor-related does. All of that needs to be done in codemirror itself which is a separate project by a different person.
01:12	Raynes	I wish he was more exuberant about that. LT isn't open source yet, so people don't think they can contribute when in fact they can contribute to one of the most important components right now.
01:13	cark	the two big ones are counterclockwise and emacs, emacs is the best of the two imo, and the skills you get with emacs are good for lots of other languages
01:19	Sgeo	codemirror?
01:20	Sgeo	There exists a language called Smarty.
02:27	sal	need help on slime-ritz, installed a new emacs 24 with clojure, swank, slime
02:28	sal	swank and clojure mode working, but slime doesn't start
02:36	sal	anybody on github, with slime-ritz emacs setup, which i can look at, thx
04:21	ro_st	technomancy: how do i resolve "target/stale/dependencies (No such file or directory)" on lein2 preview10?
04:22	sunkencityryleh	what's this # character that's needed to get the metadata? (meta #'pr-str) why not good enough with just a quote?
04:23	ro_st	nm. i'm a dumbass. permissions
04:23	tomoj	&'#'pr-str
04:23	lazybot	⇒ (var pr-str)
04:24	sunkencityryleh	hm, so it's a var-quote
04:32	philandstuff	hello. I believe I've found a couple of bugs in PersistentQueue. I've emailed clojure-dev about them. I haven't had a response. Should I open JIRA tickets for them?
04:37	tomoj	the flowchart suggests that anyone can open an issue
04:38	tomoj	the text below seems to suggest that you get feedback on clojure-dev before doing so. confusing
04:59	philandstuff	tomoj: yeah, that's how I feel
05:01	philandstuff	oh well, I've sent another email, trying to be clearer and asking direct questions about filing a bug
05:02	philandstuff	of course most of clojure/core will be asleep right now
05:02	clj_newb_2345	i know about code mirror2
05:02	clj_newb_2345	however, I'm curious -- is there any editor written in clojurescript?
05:05	cark	a couple bugs in persistentqueue ?
05:12	kral	morning
05:14	philandstuff	cark: yes. I brought them up on clojure-dev
05:14	philandstuff	I filed one as http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1059
05:16	cark	oh i see
05:17	philandstuff	there's a couple others around PersistentQueue's hash fn, which doesn't match its = fn
05:18	philandstuff	nothing earth-shattering
05:18	cark	you got me worried for a second =P
05:20	dfd	I'm wondering, is there anyone here living in Asia?
05:22	luxbock	I'm staying in Bangkok
05:22	luxbock	why?
05:22	clojurebot	luxbock: because you can't handle the truth!
05:22	dfd	haha
05:22	luxbock	:D
05:23	dfd	luxbock: just curious. I live in Japan, and I would like to learn more about whether there is much of a Clojure community here, or anywhere else in this (large) region
05:23	dfd	I know there are some Japanese folks using Clojure, I'm also curious if they hang out on the English-speaking channel.
05:23	dfd	and of course anyone else.
05:23	luxbock	hmm, no clue
05:23	dfd	(in Asia)
05:24	dfd	yeah, just sorta throwing it out there. Anyways, enjoy Thailand. Love that place. ;-)
05:42	votz	If I have a namespace without :gen-class, built and packed with leiningen's uberjar, how can one invoke a method, like foo, from the command line with java? java -cp test.jar [...]?
05:43	votz	Along the lines of http://pastie.org/private/cdtvivjaqtu9zatlmhlha
06:09	gfredericks	votz: from a jar you have to have a class to run; you can run clojure.main and get a repl...if there's a built in clojure way to call a specific jar I'd be interested
06:09	gfredericks	s/jar/var/
06:09	ro_st	anyone using datomic here can answer a stupid question for me?
06:10	ro_st	how do i query out the timestamps for data?
06:13	votz	gfredericks: Once in the clojure.main REPL, what's the best way to invoke foo of (ns test.core)?
06:15	votz	The namespace 'test' is not listed in (all-ns).
06:15	tomoj	java -cp test.jar clojure.main -e "(use 'test.core) (foo)"
06:15	gfredericks	you'd have to require it first
06:15	tomoj	I think
06:16	gfredericks	or use it as tomoj suggests with his commandline-args version I was asking for
06:16	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/3422228
06:17	votz	tomoj: Bingo. That appears to work.
06:19	michaelr`	hello
06:19	votz	Thank you for your help and input gfredericks and tomoj.
06:26	Sgeo	I guess I should try that instead of fighting with leiningen
06:26	Sgeo	Are there any advantages to lein repl over using clojure.... hmm
06:26	Sgeo	That looks like it requires clojure directly in the cp?
06:27	Sgeo	Where does Leiningen install clojure.jar?
06:30	gfredericks	Sgeo: I'd say not using lein is only worth it if you've made an uberjar
06:31	Sgeo	gfredericks, how about testing modifications to a library that doesn't use Leiningen?
06:31	Sgeo	Or how about playing with a .jar generated with JNAerator
06:32	xeqi	Sgeo: leiningen uses clojure from your ~/.m2/repository
06:32	gfredericks	try `lein classpath`?
06:33	xeqi	as far as advantages, not having to manage the classpath yourself and manually download dependencies
06:36	Sgeo	GUESS WHAT I JUST LEARNED
06:37	Sgeo	THERE IS A project.clj IN ALGO.MONADS
06:37	Sgeo	Oh, wait, n/m
06:50	Sgeo	https://www.refheap.com/paste/5090
06:51	scottj	Sgeo: Not sure if this is what you're wondering, but you can use algo.monads from a lein project, you just need to pull the version out of pom.xml and make sure you lein pulls from the repo algo.monads is deployed to
06:51	Sgeo	(Note that this doesn't use the publically available m-lift-fn, but one that's modified to be curried by default)
06:52	Sgeo	I don't entirely understand why the first and second don't match, but the second and third matching is very good
06:52	Sgeo	Does this count as testing?
06:53	Sgeo	Getting rid of the m-result makes the ( ) around individual items go away
06:54	Sgeo	I think domonad is putting an implicit m-result there.
06:54	Sgeo	Which is completely and utterly inappropriate, I think
07:00	Sgeo	$mail jimduey I dare you to try to write m-join using domonad.
07:00	lazybot	Message saved.
07:00	Sgeo	$mail jimduey Hint: domonad appears to include an m-result implicitly.
07:00	lazybot	Message saved.
07:07	philandstuff	Sgeo: I agree that the m-result is entirely inappropriate. Probably too late to remove, but you should be able to write your own domonad* which does what you want.
07:09	dfd	Clojure folks, I'm a Perl and Ruby person from way back, so whenever I start thinking about manipulating strings I will do stuff like chain regexp expressions together. But I just wrote some Clojure that feels super-un-Clojure-like: https://gist.github.com/3727361
07:09	dfd	What is a idiomatic way to do this in Clojure?
07:09	ro_st	i'd start with the threading macro
07:10	ro_st	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/-%3E
07:10	dfd	ro_st: like, pass the results to successive clojure.string/replace calls? That would be nicer, yeah
07:10	ro_st	nothing wrong with regexen, imho
07:11	Sgeo	Am I allowed to call the author of algo.monads incompetent?
07:12	ro_st	this is nice and clear: https://www.refheap.com/paste/5091
07:12	dfd	ro_st: thanks, that's really helpful. I'm still not used to thinking about -> automatically, but it is such a useful macro.
07:13	ro_st	i love how readable it makes a tangle
07:13	ro_st	and it reduces the amount of text through the auto arg passing
07:13	dfd	yeah, seriously.
07:13	ro_st	it reads -> about _this_: transform 1, then transform 2.
07:13	dfd	good stuff. Thanks!
07:14	ro_st	cool
07:17	philandstuff	Sgeo: if you want to make it better, submit patches
07:27	Sgeo	https://github.com/Sgeo/algo.monads/commit/cd8cec109ed2df6fdf81a2566f944b1139f6a194
07:28	ro_st	Sgeo: what is this wizardry?
07:28	ro_st	go slow. i'm not a neckbeard.
07:28	Sgeo	ro_st, do you know anything about monads?
07:29	Sgeo	Oh, the 15 new lines in the test are just a copy/paste of another test
07:30	ro_st	i know only that they're a functional pattern for injecting different kinds of work between the work passed to a monad
07:30	ro_st	eg, nil checking or whatever
07:30	ro_st	never used one. haven't tried yet
07:31	ro_st	what does the sequence monad do?
07:31	Sgeo	The sequence monad is sort of non-determinism
07:31	ro_st	actually, where would you use this stuff?
07:31	Sgeo	'(1 2 3 4 5) can be considered to represent either the value 1 or the value 2 or the value 3 or the value 4 or the value 5
07:32	Sgeo	(domonad sequence-m [a '(1 2 3 4 5) b '(2 3 4 5 6)] (+ a b))
07:32	Sgeo	That addition can be said to be adding, conceptually, the possibilities of a and the possibilities of b
07:33	Sgeo	The end result is a sequence that represents the addition of each possible a and b
07:33	ro_st	so, permutations
07:33	Sgeo	Yes.
07:33	Sgeo	Note that this is specific to the sequence monad. Different monads can do different things, but can be generally manipulated with the same tools
07:34	Sgeo	domonad will work with other things too, for instance.
07:34	ro_st	i've heard of the error and maybe monads
07:34	Sgeo	What m-lift and m-lift-fn do is take a monad-unaware function and convert it into one that takes monadic values
07:35	Sgeo	(m-lift-fn +) knows how to do the permutations thing, so to speak
07:36	ro_st	it wraps it in the right sort of machinery for domonad to work with
07:36	Sgeo	(Note that m-lift-fn does not exist in vanilla clojure.algo.monads, it's a function I wrote. c.a.m uses a macro m-lift instead)
07:36	Sgeo	domonad itself isn't the machinery
07:36	Sgeo	It's just a pretty way of writing code that uses this sort of thing
07:36	ro_st	ah
07:37	ro_st	what need produced these monads?
07:37	ro_st	what field are they being used in?
07:37	ro_st	trying to understand the why of it
07:37	Sgeo	Well, Haskell uses them for I/O
07:37	ro_st	oh, right
07:37	Sgeo	They provide a way to describe things being done in a certain order
07:38	Sgeo	They're also convenient for doing state
07:38	ro_st	that's right because haskell doesn't guarantee an execution order
07:39	Sgeo	The State monad wraps up the pattern of returning two values, one representing a global state, and feeding that global state into the next thing, in a convenient to use way
07:41	Sgeo	There's also a library using them to manage resources that should be closed in a timely fashion
07:41	ro_st	a with-open style thing
07:42	Sgeo	I'm... not sure how to describe it. It's a bit more flexible than with-open
07:42	ro_st	that's ok. don't hurt yourself trying. i'm merely curious
07:42	Sgeo	I'd say it's more like a macro in which you could register actions to be done when the code in the macro is done executing
07:43	Sgeo	Such registered code will always be called exactly once.
07:43	ro_st	ah, kinda like try's finally
07:43	Sgeo	Hmm. Yes, excpet without forcing them to be written in one part of the macro
07:44	Sgeo	But a major point is that, with all of these things, there are functions that apply to all of them
07:45	Sgeo	m-lift-fn, m-join, there's a map-like function (although that's another thing I'm mad about. All monads support that, but there's more than just monads that support it)
07:45	ro_st	what does m-join do?
07:45	ro_st	does it relate to fork/join?
07:46	Sgeo	If you have a monadic value in a monadic value, it unwraps it one level
07:46	ro_st	i heard rhickey mention it in an interview
07:46	Sgeo	,(apply concat '((1 2 3) (4 5 6)))
07:46	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
07:46	ro_st	oh right, so probably not
07:46	Sgeo	So, m-join for the sequence monad is apply concat
07:48	Sgeo	In fact, if you can define m-join, you have a monad.
07:48	Sgeo	Although the typical definition of monads uses a bit more difficult way to define them
07:49	ro_st	so a monad is what to do with result from operation a when giving it to operation b
07:50	Sgeo	It's... not quite that simple
07:50	Sgeo	I think
07:50	ro_st	-grin-
07:51	Sgeo	There are two operations you need to define (If you define them, m-join can be defined in terms of them, and if you define m-join, these can be defined in terms of m-join)
07:51	Sgeo	m-bind and m-result
07:51	Sgeo	m-result simply wraps up its argument in ... a monadic value, so to speak
07:51	Sgeo	,(list 5)
07:51	clojurebot	(5)
07:51	Sgeo	m-result for the sequence monad might simply be list, for example.
07:52	ro_st	gotcha
07:53	Sgeo	m-bind takes two arguments. A monadic value, such as, in the case of the sequence monad, a sequence. And a function, that takes an argument that isn't a monadic value, and gives a result that is
07:54	Sgeo	(Note that a function that doesn't know how to give a monadic value can easily be turned into one that does, by doing m-result on its result)
07:56	Sgeo	For example, the sequence monad's m-bind will takes the monadic value argument (a sequence), and run the function that it's given once for each value in the sequence. It will then take all the results, and concatenate them together
07:56	ro_st	ah so bind is the workhorse
07:57	Sgeo	Yes
07:57	ro_st	result prepares individual results for the workhorse to use for each cycle, and join prepares the final result for return to the caller
07:57	ro_st	let me guess: it's not that simple? -grin-
07:59	Sgeo	Well, you don't need to use result, although it's convenient (and it does need to be defined). And join is ... more of an alternative workhorse, that might be easier to define in some cases, and might be convenient to use in some cases
08:00	ro_st	i guess each monad has slightly different emphases
08:00	ro_st	putting the work in different places
08:00	Sgeo	More that they do different work
08:00	Sgeo	Different definitions of m-bind and m-return
08:00	ro_st	could you define a nothing monad that has all the parts but leave the inputs unaffected?
08:01	Sgeo	Yes
08:01	Sgeo	m-bind would take an ordinary value and a function, and apply the function to the value
08:01	Sgeo	m-return would just be identity
08:01	ro_st	oh i think i see: you could use different combinations of different binds and returns and joins?
08:02	Sgeo	No. bind and return are supposed to be defined in one way for one monad, and a different way for a different monad.
08:02	Sgeo	At least that's how it works in Haskell.
08:02	ro_st	ok so the monad's definition is in the bind and the return
08:02	Sgeo	ro_st, yes, exactly.
08:02	ro_st	gotcha
08:03	ro_st	very interesting. it's on my list
08:03	ro_st	along with several billion other things
08:03	ro_st	-sigh-
08:04	Sgeo	Hmm. Was I saying return or result? Because return is the Haskell term, but clojure.algo.monads says m-result
08:04	ro_st	i inferred that :-)
08:05	ro_st	time to go. happy hacking, Sgeo
08:05	Sgeo	Thanks. Bye.
08:10	Sgeo	$mail jimduey I take back my challenge. It's possible, just not nice like in Haskell.
08:10	lazybot	Message saved.
08:33	kjellski	what is the best way to get the OOP nightmare out of my head? ^^ this seems to "block" my functional thinking a lot ...
08:33	kjellski	hammer?
08:34	wmealing_	use a different editor
08:34	wmealing_	with a different color scheme
08:34	wmealing_	on a different computer
08:34	wmealing_	in a different room
08:34	wmealing_	worked for me
08:35	wmealing_	i intentionally work from the data structures backwards too
08:35	wmealing_	but i'm an average clojure programmer
08:35	wmealing_	not great by any means
08:38	Sgeo	Haskell would give you a straightjacket
08:38	kjellski	wmealing_: thanks, that is a great idea…
08:39	wmealing_	i found it worked.. i do my clojure outside, and my C in the office.
08:40	wmealing_	let me know how it goes for you
08:40	kjellski	wmealing_: I'll let you know :) thanks
08:50	antares_	kjellski: I suggest that you model a few basic problems with protocols
08:52	Sgeo	Protocols gross me out
08:52	Sgeo	Multimethods seem more versitile
08:52	Sgeo	And protocols vs multimethods is a leaky distinction
08:54	kjellski	antares_: Sgeo: with enough time, I'll try both :)
08:54	antares_	kjellski: protocols will probably be very straightforward to you, then you can try more ad-hoc polymorphism with multimethods. As for managing state, see some game tutorials out there.
09:24	mindbender1	sophisticated type systems vs simpler type systems
09:25	mindbender1	clojure=simpler type system
10:12	jro_	if I want to define a configuration file, is following way dangerous somehow: (def properties (if (file-exists? properties-file) (eval (read-string (slurp properties-file))) default-properties))
10:17	sunkencityryleh	So when I launch my project with "lein repl" and do macroexpand-1 on my macro I get this garbage printout "#<core$if_method$fn__304…" what am I doing wrong?
10:17	sunkencityryleh	uh, so I needed to quote it
10:18	sunkencityryleh	I
10:53	gfredericks	sunkencityryleh: yeah :) gotta return code, not functions
11:39	casion	where can I find information on writing performant clojure code?
11:42	antares_	casion: performance is very workload specific. Profile first. Java Performance book by Charlie Hunt is a great book on the subject.
11:43	casion	antares_: I have that on my reading list, however I was looking for more clojure specific topics
11:44	antares_	avoid reflection warnings, use protocols over multimethods where possible, use transients in critical places
11:44	antares_	there are no other hard and fast rules for Clojure
11:44	dhofstet	casion: there is chapter about performance in "the joy of clojure"
11:44	casion	dhofstet: oh, I guess I haven't got there yet
11:46	casion	hmm, what would be an example of a time where you would use a multimethod over a protocol?
11:53	antares_	when you dispatch on the type of the first argument
11:53	antares_	protocols cannot do anything else
11:54	antares_	but they are more efficient, single dispatch vs double dispatch
11:54	no7hing	are there any benchmarks about this out there?
11:55	no7hing	on how much faster protocols really are? as in orders of magnitude(s)
12:12	antares_	no7hing: unlikely that it is orders of magnitude but in a tight loop 1 method invokation vs 2 matters. Plus multimethods are synchronized in 1.4.
12:15	no7hing	synchronized e.g. when i add new methods to it?
12:18	polycosm	(In emacs) Hello, can someone explain to me how to import functions from an opened file to nrepl ? (C-c C-k does nothing).
12:19	jam`	(use 'your-ns)
12:20	jam`	or require or whatever
12:20	antares_	no7hing: as well as during dispatch, see https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/83ebf814d5d6663c49c1b2d0d076b57638bff673
12:20	no7hing	oh noes
12:20	jam`	or in-ns to your workspace
12:20	no7hing	a huge contention point just built up in front of me
12:20	jam`	I mean namespace
12:22	jam`	is there a function like split-by in the example? (split-by even? (range 10))
12:22	jam`	=> [(8 6 4 2 0) (9 7 5 3 1)]
12:23	polycosm	hmm jam` I'm trying but I can't seem to figure it out (about in-ns) how do you turn it on ?
12:23	Scriptor	,(doc group-by)
12:23	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a map of the elements of coll keyed by the result of f on each element. The value at each key will be a vector of the corresponding elements, in the order they appeared in coll."
12:24	Scriptor	jam`: could probably just call vals on that ^
12:24	jam`	cheers Scriptor
12:25	jam`	polycosm: if you have, for example, "my-core" namespace file opened in emacs then you can do (in-ns 'my-core) in nrepl
12:26	jam`	polycosm: then after you do c-c c-k in that file the lastest compild version will be available in nrepl
12:26	polycosm	oh thank you very much
12:26	jam`	wlm
12:27	jam`	or if you're in another ns you can do (use 'my-core)
12:27	jam`	to import its functions into the ns you're playing with in nrepl
12:30	polycosm	my repl doesn't know "use" though
12:31	jam`	hmm, strange
12:31	jam`	mine does:
12:31	jam`	user> use
12:31	jam`	#<core$use clojure.core$use@203da423>
12:32	polycosm	oh it's because I was in a ns I erased, my bad
12:32	jam`	ah, ok
12:46	antares_	no7hing: the RW lock implementation in master should be pretty good
12:47	no7hing	i already made a mental note to try it out ;)
12:47	no7hing	trying to get https://github.com/davidsantiago/multifn-perf running, but no success
12:49	no7hing	in my scenario 16-32 threads would try to get to the multimethods
12:49	no7hing	which equals a bloody massacre
12:49	no7hing	to
13:40	hfaafb	how should i find the largest item in a set that meets a certain condition
13:43	hfaafb	max-key seems right...
14:10	hyPiRion	hfaafb: usually, (apply max-key ...) is the way to go
14:10	hfaafb	ahh yeah just discovering that now ;)
14:13	werbitt	Hi, I'm trying to write a function that can take zero or more args but I'm having issues when I use it with zero args. Here's a gist: https://gist.github.com/3729077 . I appreciate any help.
14:22	wjc	Hi
14:23	wjc	I'm trying to use fetch with noir
14:23	wjc	I added fetch "0.1.0-SNAPSHOT" to project.clj
14:24	wjc	when I try to use fetch's remotes, I get a js error: POST http://localhost:8080/pinotremotecall 404 (Not Found)
14:25	megamind1	Oh..
14:25	wjc	after cloning fetch from github, I see no reference to pinot
14:25	megamind1	way many ppl than #Lisp
14:26	wjc	do I have the right version? fetch 0.1.0-SNAPSHOT? there's only two other alpha versions after doing a lein searc
14:26	wjc	*search
14:28	wjc	werbitt: your argument declarations are correct
14:29	wjc	but at the end, you wrapped ms, a vector: (ms), so clojure tries to execute your vector
14:30	werbitt	oh, i see, cool, thanks a lot
14:30	wjc	no problem
14:36	megamind1	anyone tried vsClojure extension ?
14:36	xeqi	wjc: I think -alpha2 is the latest
14:37	wjc	I tried it too, I still get the pinot error
14:38	wjc	I'm using noir 1.3.0-beta3, is that correct?
14:38	xeqi	I've gotten it to work with versions in https://github.com/xeqi/friend-fetch-example/blob/master/project.clj
14:39	xeqi	I don't know much about the difference in the noir betas
14:40	xeqi	wjc: just to make sure, you did remove the js file and recompile?
14:40	wjc	uh, good call
14:43	wjc	nope, same thing even with noir beta8
14:49	Xtreme	Hello
14:49	wjc	removing .lein-cljsbuild-compiler-0 did the trick
14:51	xeqi	strange, but glad its working for you now
14:51	Xtreme	megamind1, ooh, lol
14:52	wjc	yup, thanks
14:52	megamind1	yeah, that's it. Xtreme
15:04	Xtreme	guys is there any ide for clojure?
15:04	megamind1	a lot out there
15:04	hfaafb	how does #clojure feel about light table
15:04	hfaafb	(i'm new to the language and community)
15:05	Xtreme	megamind1, anyone whihc you prefer?
15:07	megamind1	since your work concern Java , I suggest netbean or eclipse for intelliJ
15:07	megamind1	maybe easily to dig in code
15:09	megamind1	Actually, I'm new to Clojure also. I'm just finding the most comfortable way to work with it :)
15:10	xeqi	in general the order of good clojure integration is emacs, eclipse w/ counterclockwise, vim w/ lein-tarsier, then a large gap before any others
15:11	Xtreme	and tutorials? nice set?
15:13	polycosm	Xtreme, try 4clojure.com I'm learning clojure through it right now, I find it really good
15:13	xeqi	yeah, 4clojure.com has a good set of problems that get harder over time
15:13	xeqi	clojurebook.com is the recommended book if you like those
15:16	akhudek	xeqi: Intellij + La Clojure is also very nice.
15:16	Sgeo	o.O I learned something new today
15:17	Sgeo	jimduey's deftype for a Maybe monadic value stores the value in a closure for deref, and nowhere else
15:18	Sgeo	Oh woah it's horribly broken
15:18	Sgeo	The person who I pointed to it was right, I was wrong
15:19	xeqi	akhudek: do you know if it can use a project.clj or nrepl?
15:19	Sgeo	$mail jimduey You got Maybe wrong about as badly as algo.monads does. In fact, I'm not sure if it's even a monad, the way you (and algo.monads) describe it.
15:19	lazybot	Message saved.
15:20	akhudek	xeqi:
15:20	akhudek	it's not that good sadly
15:21	akhudek	though there is a lein plugin for intellij that I don't use
15:32	Sgeo	Quick question: If someone uses a symbol like ::blah, is that symbol considered private, in some sense?
15:33	xeqi	not really, its just a way to namespace and avoid collisions
15:33	xeqi	&::blah
15:33	lazybot	⇒ :clojure.core/blah
15:33	xeqi	&:blah
15:33	lazybot	⇒ :blah
15:33	Sgeo	I'm wondering if I should consider ::nothing in my analysis of whether jimduey's maybe breaks the monad laws
15:34	Sgeo	If it's "private", so to speak, it would make sense if I didn't
15:34	hyPiRion	well
15:34	hyPiRion	,::foo
15:34	clojurebot	:sandbox/foo
15:34	Sgeo	(If I do consider it, it's trivially broken)
15:34	hyPiRion	,(= ::foo :sandbox/foo)
15:34	clojurebot	true
15:35	Sgeo	So to give his library a fighting chance at acceptability..
15:36	Sgeo	algo.monads's maybe-m trivially breaks the monad laws.
15:36	Sgeo	Next contestant.
15:45	Sgeo	$mail jimduey I take that back, I think yours works, as long as users cannot themselves construct ::nothing. algo.monads's maybe-m trivially breaks the monad laws, though
15:45	lazybot	Message saved.
15:47	mwcampbell	I noticed that leiningen 2 places a file called "repl-port" in the current directory when I run "lein repl". Is this a feature? My guess is that it was a temporary thing for debugging that was mistakenly left in.
15:48	hyPiRion	mwcampbell: You're right.
15:48	hyPiRion	Man, they exist probably in every folder on my computer.
15:59	technomancy	mwcampbell: it should be fixed in the latest version
16:01	akhudek	is anyone here familiar with shoreleave and it's csrf protection?
16:01	akhudek	it seems to look for the anti-forgery token in a cookie
16:01	akhudek	but I don't see any corresponding server side functionality to actually set the cookie
16:04	Sgeo	Wheee http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/ALGOM-7
16:11	megamind	hey yo
16:12	megamind	Can Clojure on Emacs auto discover available methods/property in imported Java library ?
16:21	akhudek	oh, wow
16:21	akhudek	ok that was really confusing
16:21	akhudek	shoreleave depends on a "fork" of ring-anti-forgery that does cookies
16:23	akhudek	yet it links to the main project
16:24	akhudek	or nevermind, it is just outdated and depends on an old anti-forgery
16:35	augustl	is it good or bad practice to have run-time type checks and throw exceptions if you pass, say, a vector instead of a map?
16:36	akhudek	augustl: you should use pre and post conditions for that
16:36	akhudek	http://blog.fogus.me/2009/12/21/clojures-pre-and-post/
16:36	augustl	I see
16:37	augustl	going to make some functions that take specific Java types as arguments, makes sense to check for correct types I think.
16:37	amalloy	augustl: meh. you can do that if you want. but having every function covered with typechecks is lame; i don't recommend doing it except for the outermost layer
16:38	augustl	amalloy: I'm only thinking of doing it for my public API
16:38	akhudek	amalloy: I take it there is a performance hit with these checks too
16:38	amalloy	shrug of course
16:38	akhudek	is there a way of disabling them, say when running in production?
16:39	amalloy	but so what? if typechecks are your bottleneck your program sucks
16:39	TimMc	...
16:39	Sgeo	amalloy, hey, did you see above ranting?
16:39	augustl	I'm making a ring middleware, so I'll only do the type checks when creating the handler function ;)
16:40	akhudek	amalloy: not always the case
16:40	amalloy	Sgeo: yes, but i'm not interested
16:41	akhudek	plus I use pre conditions for more then type checks at times
16:45	megamind	Can Clojure on Emacs auto discover available methods/property in imported Java library ? anyone ?
16:46	hyPiRion	megamind: Er, I don't believe so. At least not yet.
16:47	megamind	thanks, just in-case that happen, I don't need to download Eclipse
16:52	akhudek	nice, you can disable pre and post via assert
16:57	augustl	akhudek: cool
16:58	megamind	Is there any extension that work well with Clojure CLR ?
16:58	megamind	* IDE extension
17:08	sunkencityryleh	I'm stuck at figuring out how I can get the metadata of a symbol that is passed into a function without having to write a macro.
17:09	sunkencityryleh	(defmacro arglist [action] `(-> ~action var meta :arglists first)) works but surely it should not need to be a macro?
17:12	hyPiRion	sunkencityryleh: use (meta (resolve symbol))
17:12	sunkencityryleh	hyPiRion: thanks
17:12	hyPiRion	it requires that the symbol exists within the namespace, though.
17:16	amalloy	sunkencityryleh: if it's a function, then (f x) is not passing the symbol x into the function, it's passing the currently-bound value
17:16	amalloy	you really cannot count on any metadata attached to a function
17:18	sunkencityryleh	hm ok
17:22	sunkencityryleh	I guess the macro way is the way to go then
17:22	amalloy	more likely you should just not do whatever you're trying to do
17:26	sunkencityryleh	probably
17:29	hyPiRion	$findfn [0 1 2 3] [2 3 0 1]
17:29	sunkencityryleh	I'm trying to write a macro that I can use with compojure to (add-action foobar/show) that looks at foobar/show and sees that it takes the arguments param and user and generates (GET "/foobar" {param :param user :user} (foobar param user))
17:29	lazybot	[]
17:30	hyPiRion	dangit, is there any idiomatic way of rotating a seq?
17:30	sunkencityryleh	seems tedious to have to pull out the requests for each action I want to define
17:30	sunkencityryleh	pull out the arguments
17:30	sunkencityryleh	routing for
17:30	amalloy	&(doc cycle)
17:30	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Returns a lazy (infinite!) sequence of repetitions of the items in coll."
17:31	amalloy	&(doc drop) ; hyPiRion
17:31	lazybot	⇒ "([n coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of all but the first n items in coll."
17:32	hyPiRion	,(take 4 (drop 2 (cycle [0 1 2 3])))
17:32	clojurebot	(2 3 0 1)
17:32	hyPiRion	oh well.
17:32	hyPiRion	,(let [[a b] (split-at 2 [0 1 2 3])] (concat b a)) ; was a bit tedious.
17:32	clojurebot	(2 3 0 1)
17:34	no7hing	if i want to make sure that certain keys are in a map argument, is pre the way to go?
17:34	no7hing	:pre
17:35	no7hing	if yes, is it possible to check for multiple of them? {:pre [(:id x) (:name x)]} seems verbose
17:36	no7hing	to sum it up ;) i'am looking for an idiomatic way to make sure i got all i expect before starting computations
17:36	hyPiRion	no7hing: I believe it is the way to go. You could use ##(every? #{:id :name} (keys {:id 1 :name "foo"}))
17:36	lazybot	⇒ true
17:36	no7hing	uh nice
17:36	no7hing	thanks
17:37	Sgeo	Isn't there something in swiss-arrows?
17:37	aperiodic	no7hing: i'd do {:pre [(map (partial contains? x) [:id :name ...]]}
17:37	no7hing	i'am trying to not shoot myself - yet :D
17:38	no7hing	but i had a look at the lib and was intrigued
17:38	hyPiRion	no7hing: aperiodic's solution is better than mine, performance-wise.
17:38	akhudek	hyPiRion: that will only check that every key is valid, not that every valid key is present
17:38	aperiodic	no7hing: note that (contains? x key) and (key x) will return different things depending on if x actually contains key, but maps it to a nil value, versus doesn't contain key at all
17:39	aperiodic	no7hing: also there should be an outer (every? identity ...) around the map form in what i suggested
17:39	no7hing	,(contains {:id 1} :id)
17:39	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: contains in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:39	no7hing	whoops
17:39	aperiodic	,(contains? {:id nil} :id)
17:39	clojurebot	true
17:39	no7hing	,(contains? {:id 1} :id)
17:39	clojurebot	true
17:40	aperiodic	,(boolean (:id {:id nil}))
17:40	clojurebot	false
17:40	no7hing	never thought i'd say that, but i miss skype's correct feature
17:40	hyPiRion	aperiodic: Why not just ##(every? #(contains? {:id 1 :name "foo"} %) [:id :name])
17:40	lazybot	⇒ true
17:42	no7hing	i only need to check for the presence of keys
17:42	amalloy	hyPiRion: aperiodic's (map (partial contains?)) doesn't work anyway
17:43	aperiodic	drat, what did i screw up?
17:43	hyPiRion	amalloy: he said that "there should be an outer (every? identity ...) around the map form"
17:44	jkkramer	(defn has-keys? [m & ks] (every? #(contains? m %) ks)) … {:pre [(has-keys? arg :a :b :c)]}
17:44	hyPiRion	yeah, that's sweet.
17:44	amalloy	oh, i missed that
17:45	aperiodic	yeah, defining a function makes the discussion around whether you like maps & partials or anon function literals moot
17:45	aperiodic	(inc jkkramer)
17:45	lazybot	⇒ 3
17:46	Sgeo	I like partials
17:46	Sgeo	>.>
17:46	Sgeo	Makes me miss Haskell a little less
17:46	hfaafb	,(require clojure.set/map-invert)
17:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:47	hyPiRion	I like them in the sense that they are "pure to the eye". But they're slow :(
17:47	hyPiRion	,(require 'clojure.set)
17:47	clojurebot	nil
17:47	hfaafb	ahh so what is this apostrophe business
17:47	hfaafb	don't evaluate me just yet?
17:48	hyPiRion	hfaafb: yeah, it's a quote, for "just quote me, don't evaluate me"
17:48	Sgeo	It's more "don't evaluate me" period
17:48	Sgeo	,(str '(1 2 3 4 5))
17:48	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4 5)"
17:48	Sgeo	,(str (1 2 3 4 5))
17:48	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
17:48	Sgeo	,(str (quote (1 2 3 4 5))
17:48	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:49	Sgeo	,(str (quote (1 2 3 4 5)))
17:49	clojurebot	"(1 2 3 4 5)"
17:49	Sgeo	,('(1 2 3 4 5))
17:49	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
17:49	Sgeo	,(identity '(1 2 3 4 5))
17:49	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
17:50	Sgeo	,'(1 2 3 4 5)
17:50	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
17:50	Sgeo	Oh hey
17:50	aperiodic	hyPiRion: are partials slower than an anonymous function wrapper, then?
17:51	hyPiRion	&(time (reduce #(+ %1 %2) 0 (range 10000000)))
17:51	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 2032.59323 msecs" 49999995000000
17:51	hyPiRion	&(time (reduce #(+ %1 %2) 0 (range 10000000)))
17:51	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 1986.303416 msecs" 49999995000000
17:51	hyPiRion	&(time (reduce #(+ %1 %2) 0 (range 10000000)))
17:51	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 1893.38111 msecs" 49999995000000
17:51	hyPiRion	&(time (reduce (partial +) 0 (range 10000000)))
17:51	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$partial
17:51	hyPiRion	meh.
17:51	hyPiRion	&(time (reduce (partial + 0) 0 (range 10000000)))
17:51	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
17:52	aperiodic	apparently so
17:52	Sgeo	I just realized that I don't like that you need to pass more args to partial like that
17:52	Sgeo	(partial +) makes perfect sense, it's just +. It might seem useless, and I assume that's why it doesn't exist, but if you're making a macro to generate code, do you really want to have to detect that sort of thing?
17:53	casion	why would partial be faster? that doesn't make sense to me at all
17:53	aperiodic	i guess because more of the work for the anonymous function wrapper happens at compile time, whereas partial does it at runtime?
17:53	Raynes	Guys.
17:53	xeqi	%(time (apply + (range 10000000)))
17:53	xeqi	&(time (apply + (range 10000000)))
17:53	Raynes	Please don't use lazybot or clojurebot for testing speeds.
17:53	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 2275.128327 msecs" 49999995000000
17:54	Raynes	It does crazy shit like literally changing your code in order to sandbox it.
17:54	Raynes	It is in no way accurately timeable.
17:55	xeqi	I've heard good things about https://github.com/hugoduncan/criterium for benchmarking
17:56	Sgeo	I should probably do things like homework instead of hating Konrad Hinsen
17:56	Raynes	Probably.
17:57	aperiodic	i can reproduce this particular result locally (partial seems to be about 3.5 times slower)
17:57	Raynes	Sgeo: What kinda homework?
17:57	aperiodic	casion: partial is slower, not faster
17:58	Sgeo	Senior Project, describing why I'd be good at my role in the group
17:58	casion	aperiodic: I know. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to me to even think partial would be faster
17:58	Sgeo	Overdue essay basically :/
17:58	hyPiRion	Heh, I'm writing a poker bot in Clojure now.
17:58	Raynes	Sgeo: So highschool stuff?
17:58	Raynes	Or college stuff?
17:58	Sgeo	Raynes, college
17:58	Sgeo	I'm not in "Computer Science" though. I'm in "Computer Programming/Information Systems"
17:58	Sgeo	:/
17:59	Sgeo	Last semester, assuming I don't fail Intro to Drawing
17:59	Raynes	I was curious because high school would have placed you near my age group. Though I guess college does too.
18:00	aperiodic	casion: i didn't think the difference would be significant
18:00	casion	everyone here seems to be young
18:00	Raynes	casion: Define 'young'.
18:00	casion	aperiodic: well, iirc partial uses apply.. and #() is a macro
18:00	casion	Raynes: < average age of ##c
18:00	Raynes	Lots of late 20s-late 30s, I think.
18:00	Raynes	I'm an exception.
18:01	hyPiRion	Huh, I thought there were a lot of early 20s too.
18:01	casion	I just turned 30, but I'd figure I'm 'older' than most people my age
18:01	casion	seems like there's a lot of similar people here
18:01	Raynes	You're only 12 years older than me.
18:01	Raynes	That's only over a decade.
18:01	amalloy	aperiodic: the partial/lambda distinction is much more pronounced with + than with most functions
18:01	amalloy	because (+ a b) can be inlined, but ((identity +) a b) can't
18:02	casion	finished college when I was 19, already had been doing embedded for 2 years at that point
18:02	amalloy	try using, eg, (let [f +] #(f % %2)) as your function, and they'll be pretty close
18:02	Raynes	I'm not doing the college thing.
18:02	casion	Raynes: good, IMO it's a complete waste
18:02	Raynes	I'm doing the work thing right now.
18:02	Sgeo	Is there a good reason that (partial +) doesn't work?
18:03	casion	then again, I have music degrees… which are essentially worthless :\|
18:03	Raynes	lol
18:03	Raynes	What are those for, exactly?
18:03	casion	one teaching, one performance
18:03	Raynes	What career choices do you have with music degrees?
18:03	casion	begging on street corners.
18:03	Sgeo	Or even (partial)
18:03	Raynes	Hahaha
18:04	mattmoss	I win? 40
18:04	casion	seriously, no one gives a flying fuck if you have a degree in any music related career except for teaching
18:04	casion	and teaching music at anything but graduate level is drepressing
18:04	casion	and I never made it that far anyway
18:05	S11001001	casion: partial is faster if you have like millions of them and not so much memory for all the classes that lambdas would require (i.e. partial has constant lambda-class cost :)
18:05	Sgeo	Is the speed really relevant?
18:06	Sgeo	It's the concepts that it expresses that are important, I think
18:06	aperiodic	Sgeo: probably not :)
18:06	S11001001	I don't care, but someone asked
18:06	aperiodic	but hey, it's interesting
18:06	hyPiRion	Sgeo: Oh God, no. If it were, then you're using the wrong language.
18:06	casion	S11001001: wouldn't partial be slower for anything > 3 args though?
18:06	S11001001	I like partial because it's pretty, and don't care about whatever cost from losing specialization of what have you
18:07	S11001001	premature optimization &c
18:07	S11001001	I'm a lisper, I don't care about consing
18:07	hyPiRion	casion: I envy musicians who program a lot. Most of them seem to excel at programming.
18:08	S11001001	anyway a sufficiently sophisticated compiler can optimize out a (concat ...) in the last arg position of apply :)
18:08	Sgeo	I hate partial because it requires two arguments, and that's a stupid thing to need to check for in a macro that emits a partial
18:08	casion	hyPiRion: at imperitive programming maybe :)
18:08	Sgeo	*at least two arguments
18:08	Bronsa	Sgeo: that's no longer true :)
18:08	Bronsa	Clojure 1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT
18:08	Bronsa	user=> (partial +)
18:08	Bronsa	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@31818dbc>
18:08	Sgeo	Bronsa, awesome!
18:08	Sgeo	What about (partial)? I can think of a meaning for that
18:09	hyPiRion	casion: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2008-03-26.html#22:29
18:09	Bronsa	Sgeo: what should that return?
18:09	Bronsa	a 0 arity function that does what?
18:09	Sgeo	(partial) would be a function that takes a function and other arguments and applys function to the arguments
18:09	Sgeo	((partial) + 1 2)
18:10	hyPiRion	well, that's clutter though.
18:10	casion	hyPiRion: I wonder how far he's got… that will have a lot of difficulties with that model unless he's oversampling somewhere
18:10	hyPiRion	((partial) + 1 2) would be just (+ 1 2)
18:11	Apage43	I think that was the idea, that you could move that first ) anywhere and get the same answer.
18:12	aperiodic	ok, the anonymous function literal is faster because it knows more about its arguments than whatever comes out of partial
18:12	aperiodic	that makes sense to me
18:12	aperiodic	Sgeo: the empty partial is identity, then?
18:13	Sgeo	aperiodic, I think that would only work if .. it were curried?
18:14	Sgeo	,(identity + 1 2)
18:14	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$identity>
18:14	Sgeo	,((partial identity +) 1 2)
18:14	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$identity>
18:14	Sgeo	Um, wtf am I thinking
18:14	Apage43	not identity, (fn [& args] (eval args))
18:15	casion	hyPiRion: you wouldn't happen to know if he spoke of this more?
18:15	hyPiRion	,((fn [& [a & r]] (apply a r)) + 1 2)
18:15	clojurebot	3
18:16	aperiodic	Sgeo: ah, right, there's an invocation in there i wasn't accounting for
18:16	hyPiRion	casion: I'm afraid not. But I know that he has an interest in audio.
18:17	casion	I really want to know how/if he handled the decay rate of the ion channels in the basilar membrane
18:18	octagon	hi, all. is there an existing function equivalent to (fn [x y] (fn [& args] (apply x args) (apply y args)))?
18:19	amalloy	&(doc juxt)
18:19	lazybot	⇒ "([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
18:19	hyPiRion	octagon: would you be interested in the value x returns as well?
18:20	octagon	no, just the value of (apply y args) is needed
18:20	Apage43	,((juxt list +) 1 2 3)
18:20	clojurebot	[(1 2 3) 6]
18:20	octagon	i am "funrolling" a sequence of functions all of the same arity
18:20	casion	hyPiRion: you have me google stalking him now :D
18:20	Sgeo	funrolling?
18:20	octagon	(reduce squash fns)
18:20	hyPiRion	casion: haha
18:20	octagon	where squash is my function above
18:24	gfredericks	a lot of the built-in HOFs won't work since you're using side-effects
18:24	gfredericks	or like juxt they will do a bit of extra work
18:25	xeqi	&((comp second (juxt list +)) 1 2 3)
18:25	lazybot	⇒ 6
18:30	hyPiRion	&((comp second (juxt println +)) 1 2 3)
18:30	lazybot	⇒ 1 2 3 6
18:33	Sgeo	juxt reminds me of something I saw in Haskell that's... related to arrows somehow
18:33	Sgeo	I don't entirely understand Haskell arrows though
18:33	amalloy	Sgeo: &&&, iirc
18:33	amalloy	or ***? i forget
18:34	casion	thanks to sgeo, I've learned more about haskell in here than in #haskell ;)
18:34	Sgeo	o.O
18:35	casion	half-joking :)
18:35	mpan	what's the name-registration bot, again?
18:35	amalloy	yeah, juxt is &&&
18:35	Sgeo	mpan, NickServ
18:35	mpan	thanks
18:36	Sgeo	You're welcome
18:36	xeqi	I always think of ***, which appears at https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/fn.clj#L94
18:36	xeqi	ah, misread above
18:38	Sgeo	I can't imagine when to-fn would be useful
18:38	Sgeo	Erm, as-fn
18:39	S11001001	Sgeo: duck-typing
18:41	amalloy	S11001001: i'd describe it more as "weak typing". ninjudd is a much bigger fan than i am of APIs like "pass a function, but if it's not a function we'll make it one for you"
18:42	mpan	how does the "make it one for you" work?
18:42	amalloy	&(let [x 5, f (constantly x)] (f 'sdafjksde))
18:42	lazybot	⇒ 5
18:43	mpan	oh, like assume if they give you val they want fn-that-gives-val?
18:43	TimMc	anti-trampoline
18:43	TimMc	:-P
18:45	hyPiRion	I have had use for something similar - except that x is lazily evaluated.
18:47	jasonjckn	hi
18:51	mpan	hi
18:54	gfredericks	amalloy: you don't like those APIs because of ambiguous cases like vector/set/map/keyword?
18:54	hiredman	I may have found the perfect use for the stm
18:54	amalloy	that's one problem
18:55	Raynes	amalloy: I'm on your side regarding APIs like that.
18:55	hiredman	I model each pin on my beaglebone as a ref, then I can transactionally set them high or low (with a watcher that does the actual io)
18:56	amalloy	but i just don't like the looseness. it makes it hard to tell what's going on when you read a call to such an API. you can see (f x y), know the behavior of f, and have no idea what x and y are without further poking around in the local scope
18:56	gfredericks	amalloy: Raynes: I am on both of your sides regarding APIs like that
18:56	Raynes	I know you are, baby.
18:56	Sgeo	If you want to give a function a function that will always return a value, just do it in the call yourself
18:56	gfredericks	amalloy: it feels a lot like rails :)
18:57	amalloy	nice, hiredman. although, why not a single ref holding all of them? that would work, but i guess require a smarter watcher?
18:58	hiredman	amalloy: finer grained transactions of course... because I am flipping those pins high and low like crazy
18:59	hiredman	it's a little arm board like a rasberrypi
18:59	mpan	are you using... a serial port?
19:00	hiredman	gpio pins on the board, I am using them to control dc motors
19:01	axle_512	Style question… I am thinking of using clojure protocols for a data access layer (to MySQL.) My thinking is that if I switch databases, I can swap out the implementations. Is this a good practice/style in clojure?
19:01	arohner	axle_512: completely unrelated to the protocols question, IMO, you can't treat DBs as interchangeable
19:02	arohner	but yes, protocols would work there
19:03	axle_512	arohner: thanks!
19:04	mpan	could you treat a subset of their functionality as interchangeable, though?
19:05	mpan	one that would be enough to be useful
19:05	arohner	mpan: not really. select count(*) from table; is O(1) in mysql and O(n) or O(logn) in postgres. Also their syntax for a lot of things are different
19:06	Sgeo	What is clojure-slim?
19:06	arohner	so then you either have to treat the queries as strings, which aren't interchangable, or write an ORM that abstracts across them (thousands of LoC, and a giant effort to do properly)
19:06	Sgeo	I noticed it in the download
19:07	Sgeo	On a public channel
19:08	aperiodic	hiredman: are you running clojure on the beagleboard?
19:08	xeqi	Sgeo: don't do it
19:08	Sgeo	xeqi, the bot itself runs a sandboxed Linux environment
19:08	Sgeo	I think that environment is versioned? I'm not sure, I didn't make it
19:09	mpan	eventually someone will try to consume an entire infinite sequence by accident
19:09	xeqi	"by accident"
19:09	mpan	hey, I did it by accident locally
19:09	Raynes	Sgeo: selinux?
19:09	Sgeo	I think it's UMLbox
19:09	Raynes	I'm working on a selinux-sandbox-for-language-eval-as-a-service project with a friend.
19:10	Sgeo	And the first result for UMLbox is in fact by the person who made the bot, and UMLbox apparently
19:10	mpan	is it like process-per-request?
19:11	Sgeo	Requests all take place in the same environment, I think, but if someone screws it up, the bot operator can revert it
19:11	mpan	needing human intervention sounds tricky
19:11	Sgeo	There's maybe two channels where it's running
19:12	Sgeo	Incidentally, is there a .gz version of the Clojure distribution/
19:13	xeqi	is there a way to limit the number of Threads the jvm can start?
19:14	mpan	well you could have the operating system enforce it
19:14	mpan	but that doesn't sound like a nice answer
19:14	mpan	trying to see if the security api lets you
19:17	mpan	I thought it was possible with the security manager but I can't find it
19:19	xeqi	I haven't seen anything either :/
19:20	mpan	you could conditionally forbid everything in the java api that would create a thread
19:20	mpan	that sounds hard though
19:20	mpan	but I recall hearing someone had done it before for clojure
19:21	xeqi	heh, I tried to convince someone of blocking some of it
19:25	axle_512	arohner: more what I was thinking was something like a protocol for dealing with users. Create user, list users, get details for individual user, and delete user. Then the SQL specific details for each database would live behind those functions.
19:25	arohner	ah, data access layer. Much more manageable.
19:25	augustl	is there a way to make a jar that somehow makes its "resources" available directly in the file system as opposed to packaged inside a jar? Need to shell out to python, so the files python calls needs to be in the "normal" fs.
19:25	axle_512	arohner: And still a good use for protocols? Or is there a better way?
19:26	hiredman	aperiodic: yes
19:26	hiredman	aperiodic: with the oracle arm jvm
19:26	arohner	axle_512: protocols dispatch on the class of the first argument, and are built for speed
19:26	xeqi	axle_512: namespaces?
19:27	hiredman	I've got a little rover I am building on what is left of a $20 rc car
19:27	arohner	axle_512: normal fns might get you a long way
19:28	mindbender1	"I don't want to die in a language I can't understand" -- Richard P. Gabriel
19:29	axle_512	arohner: thanks, makes sense.
19:30	axle_512	xeqi: thanks, let me think on that too.
19:34	axle_512	xeqi: I think what you mean is to just use a different namespace per impl… all with the same function signatures. Then I can swap them out interchangably. (Without need for protocols?)
19:36	xeqi	axle_512: yep, and if you alias (require '[blah.postgres :as db]) and use them db/save-user then all you have to change is the use line
19:36	xeqi	assuming your not changing them at runtime
19:36	xeqi	then namespaces wouldn't be easy, if workable
19:39	axle_512	xeqi: appreciate it!
19:55	abcnever	Hi I'm new to clojure and I'm kind of confused by square brackets in clojure. I have googled it but I'm still not sure what exactly is square brackets used for. Is it vector?
19:56	hiredman	,(vector? [])
19:56	clojurebot	true
19:56	abcnever	oh that's neat 0.0
19:57	abcnever	Thanks!
20:17	augustl	I need to invoke a python script that uses code in the resources/ of my jar. But that only works when working with the checked out code.. When I package the jar, the resources/ aren't directly in the file system, so the python script doesn't find them
20:17	augustl	any suggestions?
20:20	mpan	extract to a temporary dir on path at runtime? that sounds messy but it would do it
20:20	amalloy	don't distribute a jar, get a smarter python program...
20:20	Apage43	http://docs.python.org/library/zipimport.html
20:21	Apage43	rather, the functionality is build in, so you should just be able to add "file.jar/resources" onto your python import path
20:22	Apage43	it may actually be looking for the ".zip" extension though, which could be problematic
20:34	augustl	mpan: hmm toat could work
20:34	augustl	amalloy: for some reason, building Google Closure requires both python and java
20:35	augustl	Apage43: I'll investigate
20:35	jrajav	"For some reason"? They're fracking Google :P
20:35	augustl	s/toat/that
20:35	jrajav	It's not code until Python or Java is in there somewhere
20:35	augustl	would be nice if they could pick just one..
20:36	ivan	Google Closure is 4 or 5 different tools
20:36	augustl	would still be nice if the dependency script from the library was java, though
21:04	clj_newb_2345	what is the correct way to change a javascript object to a clojurescript object?
21:07	akhudek	clj_newb_2345: js->clj
21:07	akhudek	I think.
21:07	clj_newb_2345	ah; for some reason, I wa susing js->cljs
21:07	clj_newb_2345	using
21:07	Sgeo	How common is do-template/
21:07	Sgeo	*Commonly used
21:13	amalloy	Sgeo: ~never
21:13	Sgeo	o.O but it looks useful for various things
21:14	tomoj	why does clojurescript have ASeq?
21:15	tomoj	seq is identity on ASeqs, but this seems to mean that every ASeq should be an ISeq
21:15	tomoj	which appears to be the case in core
21:17	tomoj	jvm translation artifact?
21:30	Sgeo	Is jayfield someone who comes here?
21:31	Sgeo	http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/01/clojure-using-java-inner-classes.html 403's for me
21:32	amalloy	tomoj: i don't think think so. it looks like dnolen added it in 653a26e3, though i can't immediately see why
21:35	tomoj	strange
21:35	tomoj	"wip", but it still doesn't appear to be used
21:35	tomoj	except for seq
21:36	unlink	How do I map over the values of a hash map in Clojure? Looking for something equivalent to (fn [f xs] (into {} (for [[k v] xs] [k (f v)])))
21:38	howard_guo	, (let [a 1] a)
21:38	clojurebot	1
21:39	howard_guo	, (def foo (Thread/sleep 100))
21:39	Sgeo	, (let [+ -] (+ 1 1))
21:39	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
21:39	clojurebot	0
21:39	Sgeo	Hmm, there's a funny example of Haskell code but I don't think I can re-create it in Clojure
21:40	howard_guo	C:
21:40	Sgeo	Well, I can, but it wouldn't be as amusing
21:40	Sgeo	let 2 + 2 = 5 in 2 + 2 results in 5 in Haskell
21:40	tomoj	huh, why didn't that get inlined?
21:40	ludston	Could do (loop [keys data map] (if (empty? keys) map (recur (rest keys) (rest data) (assoc map (first keys) (first data)))))
21:40	unlink	Something like the Functor instance on Map in Haskell :-)
21:40	ludston	Not very efficient though
21:41	tomoj	unlink: well in 1.5 maps are Foldable
21:41	tomoj	but http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1049
21:41	tomoj	and you can't use the result it like a map without reducing it into a new map anyway
21:42	Sgeo	Functor needs to be separate from other concepts
21:42	Sgeo	Seriously
21:42	Sgeo	This is absurd
21:42	howard_guo	,(import 'sun.misc.Unsafe)
21:42	clojurebot	sun.misc.Unsafe
21:42	howard_guo	eh?!
21:44	Sgeo	I doubt you'll be able to use it
21:44	amalloy	Sgeo: i've noticed all the clojure libraries are absurd. save your breath and write better ones
21:44	Sgeo	,sun.misc.Unsafe
21:44	clojurebot	sun.misc.Unsafe
21:45	howard_guo	,(do (import 'sun.misc.Unsafe) (sun.misc.Unsafe/getUnsafe))
21:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: getUnsafe, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
21:45	howard_guo	:(
21:47	howard_guo	,(prn 1)
21:47	clojurebot	1
21:47	howard_guo	,(prn (System/getProperty("java.version")))
21:47	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
21:47	howard_guo	....
21:47	howard_guo	,(prn (System/getProperty "java.version"))
21:47	clojurebot	#<SecurityException java.lang.SecurityException: denied>
21:47	howard_guo	hahaha...
21:49	howard_guo	,(import 'java.beans.Expression)
21:49	clojurebot	java.beans.Expression
21:50	tomoj	maybe try hacking lazybot in PM?
21:50	howard_guo	no intention of hacking, just having some fun
21:54	howard_guo	,(do (import 'java.beans.Expression) (.getValue (Expression. System "getProperty" (into-array String ["java.version"]))))
21:54	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.InternalError: bouncer cannot be found>
21:55	gfredericks	howard_guo: but your fun is noisy
21:55	gfredericks	you can use a private message to cavort with the bots
21:55	howard_guo	ok
21:55	howard_guo	sorry
21:55	gfredericks	no worries; I've done it too often myself
21:55	howard_guo	what is a java bouncer?
21:58	tomoj	btw if you manage to find a hole, that's good and should be reported to clojail
21:58	howard_guo	yeah... im not a bad guy
21:58	tomoj	ie hacking encouraged, it makes the jail better
21:59	ludston	Don't worry howard_guo, I think you're a bad guy.
21:59	howard_guo	^^
22:01	xeqi	I think lazybots pretty secure now, though there are ways to crash it
22:01	howard_guo	this morning I was debugging my network application, it uses linked blocking queue to process incomming requests
22:01	tomoj	I wonder if binding is only outlawed because push-thread-bindings is dangerous?
22:01	howard_guo	and I then noticed , for some reason, the requests get lost after few thousands of them
22:01	howard_guo	so I spent few hours to debug that, no progress
22:01	howard_guo	and then I came here...
22:02	amalloy	tomoj: yes
22:05	howard_guo	my Clojure networked application needs a queue to sequentially process incoming requests, is it better to use linked blocking queue or build a queue using Clojure's concurrent mechanism?
22:05	howard_guo	I don't need many functions, just an add and a remove
22:07	xeqi	(doc pop)
22:07	clojurebot	"([coll]); For a list or queue, returns a new list/queue without the first item, for a vector, returns a new vector without the last item. If the collection is empty, throws an exception. Note - not the same as next/butlast."
22:07	howard_guo	um...
22:08	howard_guo	I thought about building the queue using clojure's functions
22:08	howard_guo	but then realized, if 1000+ requests are queued, each time an entry is popped from the queue, the queue needs to be copied, popped and then assigned back to the atom?
22:09	ludston	Have you considered using JMS?
22:10	howard_guo	no I have not
22:10	howard_guo	I will check it out
22:11	howard_guo	but linked blocking queue shouldn't break after just a few thousands of queued things right?
22:11	ludston	I'm not sure about any clojure interfaces for it. It's "Java Messaging System" and it's pretty much just consists of a queue sevlet thingy that you can push and pull messages from.
22:11	amalloy	clojure's immutable data structures are much more efficient than just copying the whole thing
22:11	howard_guo	thank you
22:12	amalloy	conj and pop are both O(1) on a queue
22:12	howard_guo	cool
22:12	howard_guo	my clojure network app, reads messages from sockets, put them into a linked blocking queue
22:12	howard_guo	then another thread, takes entries from the queue and process them
22:12	tomoj	conj is O(log_32 n), pop is O(1)?
22:13	howard_guo	I started a client, and in a (doseq [I (range 10000)] loop, it sends those messages through socket
22:13	howard_guo	and I noticed that server app's linked blocking queue no longer returns when "take" is called. after around 3000 messages are queued
22:13	howard_guo	really weird
22:14	tomoj	I guess pop is O(log_32 n) as well
22:14	amalloy	tomoj: did you watch spiewak's talk at the second conj, about the implementation of functional queues?
22:14	tomoj	no
22:14	tomoj	is it amortize O(1)?
22:14	akhudek	tomoj: log_32 n is really small
22:14	amalloy	yes
22:15	amalloy	pop is, anyway
22:15	tomoj	cool
22:15	amalloy	conj is log32
22:15	howard_guo	conj to vector is log32?
22:15	howard_guo	is conj to list O(1)?
22:16	amalloy	but i still prefer to call that O(1) anyway
22:17	tomoj	I'm still confused about that
22:17	akhudek	,(/ (Math/log 1000000) (Math/log 32))
22:17	clojurebot	3.986313713864835
22:18	amalloy	tomoj: you know the formal definition of big-O?
22:18	tomoj	,(/ (Math/log 1000000) (Math/log 2) 5)
22:18	clojurebot	3.986313713864835
22:18	tomoj	yeah
22:19	Sgeo	I'd imagine conj to a list os O(1)
22:19	howard_guo	hope so...
22:20	tomoj	seems like any argument for using "O(1)" for O(log_32 n) would not be hard to apply to O(log_2 n)
22:20	Sgeo	A list is just a value and another list, prepending to it shouldn't matter how much other stuff is in the list
22:20	howard_guo	:)
22:20	amalloy	tomoj: sure, that's a fair objection
22:20	Sgeo	Why not just say that conj to vector is O(log n) but that it's fairly small
22:20	tomoj	except the magnitudes of "too big to care" is different?
22:21	amalloy	but if you put log32 in between 1 and log2, it's a lot closer to 1 than to log2
22:22	amalloy	some of it is also just convenience. it's easier to characterize the running time of some larger algorithm if you pretend insertions to vectors are constant time, instead of pedantically carrying along the log32 through the whole analysis
22:24	tomoj	ok
22:25	tomoj	but what confuses me is that it is acceptable to drop it
22:25	tomoj	or s/that/whether/
22:25	Sgeo	Mathematically, no.
22:25	Sgeo	But what amalloy is trying to get at is that in practical usage, the amount of time is going to be small even with large vectors
22:26	Sgeo	It doesn't mean that it becomes O(1), because it doesn't
22:26	Sgeo	But it does mean that when trying to choose an algorithm, O(log_32 n) might be as negligable as O(1) is, I think
22:26	howard_guo	you'll probably need Google scale challenges to notice that difference :D
22:27	tomoj	and the reason we don't say binary search is "practically O(1)" is because trees big enough were the difference is noticeable are common?
22:27	tomoj	s/were/where/
22:27	amalloy	tomoj: i think so
22:27	Sgeo	I would say that it's wrong to say that it's O(1), just say that it's as negligable as O(1)
22:28	Sgeo	It's O(log n) with a very small I'm not sure the word
22:29	tomoj	so if some years from now, datasets 5x bigger than what we have now are common, will we have to increase the arity of our tries?
22:29	tomoj	wait, that 5x seems wrong
22:30	tomoj	is it actually 32^5 :O
22:30	metellus	one thing to keep in mind in all of this is that O(1) does not guarantee fast and O(log n) doesn't necessarily mean slow
22:30	metellus	in practical cases, coefficients do matter
22:31	metellus	and when the JVM is concerned, log_32 (n) never goes above something like 7
22:31	amalloy	tomoj: something like that. i'd say more like 2^32
22:31	amalloy	because that's when we'll finally need to use a long rather than an int for an array index
22:34	tomoj	so at n=4.789e52 log_32 never gives above 35, which is where log_2 is now
22:34	tomoj	which is more than the number of stars in the observable universe
22:35	tomoj	based on that I'm going to pretend to myself that I'm not confused anymore :)
22:44	howard_guo	If you have some spare time to spend, please take a look at this issue in my Clojure network application:
22:45	howard_guo	https://github.com/HouzuoGuo/Aurinko/issues/12
22:45	howard_guo	I have tried very hard but still cannot figure out why LinkedBlockingQueue fails me
22:45	Hodapp	did my eyes just observe... Counterclockwise hot-swapping my code in as I evaluate it?
22:45	howard_guo	wow really it does that?
22:46	Hodapp	well, now that I think of it, I suppose with Quil it makes more sense because I was redefining the 'draw' function, which it calls every frame
22:46	amalloy	tomoj: number of stars in the observable universe seems way smaller than that, isn't it?
22:47	Hodapp	but even so, I am surprised that the updated 'draw' is what's used in all other places then
22:47	howard_guo	wow that is really handy
22:47	Hodapp	I certainly could not do this with Processing
22:47	akhudek	amalloy: "The observable universe contains between 10^22 and 10^24 stars…"
22:48	amalloy	right. 10^52 sounds more like the number of electrons in the observable universe, not stars
22:48	tomoj	wiki says number of atoms is very roughly 10^80
22:49	akhudek	I can see the blog post now "Clojure for universe-scale processing"
22:49	howard_guo	hahahaha
22:49	howard_guo	"Clojure has solved the universe"
22:50	Sgeo	If I have some program that's written in Java, and, say, it's a chat program, I should be able to, with a Java decompiler and Clojure, make bots to connect to it?
22:50	Sgeo	(Java decompiler just to know what classes and functions to use, I'm aware Clojure doesn't need source code)
22:51	howard_guo	decompiled clojure code is quite... ugly
22:57	ivan	howard_guo: do you... reload your code after ~1000 offers?
22:57	howard_guo	reload my code?
22:57	howard_guo	sorry I don't get it
22:57	ivan	not knowing anything, the only thing I suspected was offering to a new/wrong LinkedBlockingQueue
22:57	howard_guo	oh..
22:58	howard_guo	thanks for that, I'll check it anyway
23:01	Hodapp	aaaaand I crashed Eclipse
23:01	Sgeo	I've had a long-standing complaint about Clojars
23:01	Sgeo	I should just try to put a web app on Heroku or something to solve it
23:02	Sgeo	Although.... hmm, the possibility of malicious jars... I don't know how to fix that
23:02	Hodapp	all I want to do is (1) stop the Clojure application I just started and (2) restart it without everything exploding
23:02	howard_guo	and boom
23:02	Sgeo	(I just want a tool to browse the source of uploaded jars)
23:09	Sgeo	Although, do lein jars and uberjars precompile all the .clj? If so, then my idea is sort of useless
23:13	Hodapp	jeebus, even without getting the hang of Clojure yet completely, I am finding it rather awesome that I can swap in new function definitions while the damn code is running
23:14	ivan	Sgeo: I just track down everyone's git repos and use my hacky build system to build everything
23:14	ivan	all 242 of them
23:14	Sgeo	I meant more in terms of reading the source to get an understanding of what it does
23:14	xeqi	Sgeo: out of curiousity.. whats your complaint?
23:14	ivan	Clojure libraries are almost always .clj source in the jar
23:15	Sgeo	xeqi, that it's not convenient to browse the source of a library on Clojars right on the site
23:15	Raynes	Sgeo: Clojure code is very rarely aot'd at all.
23:16	uvtc	Sgeo, I think the tool to browse a jar's source code is github. :) That is to say, the canonical clojars page for a given library should almost always contain a link to the lib's github page, and you can browse the code there.
23:16	ivan	but what if the jar code does not match the VCS code!
23:16	Raynes	You can just download the jar and open it up in emacs.
23:17	uvtc	Just FYI, all jars are directly available at http://clojars.org/repo/ .
23:20	ivan	someone ought to write a tool to verify that everyone's releases correspond to a git commit
23:21	ivan	and then read every line of code
23:21	uvtc	xeqi: Clojars feature request: On a given library's Clojars page, also provide a direct link to the jar somewhere on the page.
23:21	ivan	couple days ago I found a unit test downloading an unsigned clojure.jar over HTTP
23:21	Sgeo	ivan, o.O wtf
23:22	Sgeo	Is there a process for getting malicious stuff removed from clojars?
23:22	Raynes	uvtc: I'm against that.
23:22	Raynes	uvtc: It'll encourage new people to try to download and 'install' the jar.
23:22	Raynes	The way it is now, they're forced to read about Leiningen. Pretty much, anyways.
23:23	ivan	I wanted that feature at some point, then just used rsync to get all of clojars
23:23	Raynes	Sgeo: Well, the first step is for people to not download malicious stuff.
23:23	tomoj	to get all the docs and source metadata, wouldn't you need to actually load the code? so LXC per artifact?
23:24	Raynes	Sgeo: clojars will require jar signing and such for the main maven repo soon.
23:24	Raynes	So that might help.
23:24	uvtc	Raynes: Ah. Ok. Well, anyway, easy enough to grab the jar from /repo/group-id/artifact-id too.
23:24	Raynes	I imagine that if you found something malicious, you could get it removed by asking technomancy.
23:25	xeqi	Sgeo: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki/Contact
23:26	uvtc	One person's malicious is another person's delicious.
23:26	uvtc	Wait, I didn't say that.
23:27	uvtc	See, as soon as I see Raynes here I start using all by late-night humor.
23:28	uvtc	Speaking of Raynes, if anyone's interested, I've been experimenting with htmlizing and colorizing the IRC logs that he collects. I've started putting them at http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/irc-logs/index.html .
23:28	uvtc	(just the ones for #clojure)
23:29	aperiodic	oh rad, you did the monospacing for the evaluation requests!
23:29	aperiodic	(inc uvtc) <3
23:29	aperiodic	ugh
23:29	aperiodic	(inc uvtc)
23:29	uvtc	Uh oh.
23:29	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:29	ivan	"SANBOX DENIED"?
23:30	aperiodic	hmm
23:30	aperiodic	(inc aperiodic) ; garbage
23:30	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
23:30	uvtc	(inc aperiodic) ; hi!
23:30	lazybot	⇒ 1
23:31	aperiodic	oh, all bot messages are monospaced
23:31	aperiodic	good enough
23:31	uvtc	aperiodic: Yes. I think that was requested yesterday.
23:31	aperiodic	well, it would be cool if the input was too
23:31	aperiodic	is this in a real repo yet?
23:31	uvtc	I tried having all the comments be the same default color, but I just liked reading them in color better.
23:31	uvtc	So, alas, can't make everyone happy.
23:32	uvtc	aperiodic: Ah, right. I need to create a github repo for the project.
23:32	aperiodic	you could just use lazybot & clojure as dependencies, and hook into however they find the forms to evaluate
23:33	uvtc	I don't yet know why http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/irc-logs/2012/09-15.html#06:35:17 isn't rendering the last character correctly (in my browser).
23:33	uvtc	aperiodic: I think maybe that's a little fancier than what I've done so far.
23:37	Hodapp	hrmmm, mixing Clojure with a very-stateful-API is kind of weird
23:38	aperiodic	uvtc: are you putting it in a repo now? ;)
23:39	uvtc	Yes, just need to fill in the README.md ... just a few moments.
23:39	aperiodic	excellent!
23:46	uvtc	aperiodic: https://github.com/uvtc/colorize-irc-logs
23:47	aperiodic	(inc uvtc)
23:47	lazybot	⇒ 2
23:48	uvtc	Oooh! I'm moving up in the world. :D
23:48	aperiodic	yup; at the conj, we'll all line up by lazybot karma before every meal
23:57	Sgeo	(karma sgeo)
23:58	aperiodic	$karma Sgea
23:58	lazybot	Sgea has karma 0.
23:58	aperiodic	$karma Sgeo
23:58	lazybot	Sgeo has karma 0.
23:58	aperiodic	i can type