#clojure – 2012-09-14

2012-09-14

02:02	akhudek	whoa aot + repl is not fun
02:02	akhudek	at least with intellij
02:03	akhudek	seems the repl always uses the compiled code no mater if you request it load from source
02:03	akhudek	for protocols
02:33	Urthwhyte	Hey guys - would you recommend slimv or VimClojure more?
03:24	kral	namaste
03:24	kral	I thought clojure was more attractive for emacs users
03:25	kral	Seems like there's a lot of clojurist out there that use vim...
03:30	antares_	kral: I'd say the majority does use emacs, but vimclojure is very good from what I hear
03:38	kral	antares_: I started with vim and moved to emacs long ago, but vim still intrigues me
03:39	kral	so good to know vimclojure is good :)
03:42	hfaafb	https://gist.github.com/37a902a2ee88c2f73d49 my first clojure program >_>
03:43	ro_st	can i put atoms inside other atoms? in cljs, too?
04:01	antares_	ro_st: you can, not sure about cljs
04:02	antares_	hfaafb: #(keyword %) can be just keyword
04:02	antares_	hfaafb: also, looks like you can use reduce instead of explicit loop/recur, just an idea
04:03	hfaafb	that's why i posted it! thank you
04:03	amalloy	well, numerals is better written as a lazy-seq, not as a reduce
04:04	antares_	hfaafb: and do on line 29 seems unnecessary, you only have one expression in that branch (let)
04:16	mindbender1	No matter what new function one is trying to write there's always a bases to it, to which it should conform to at least one of it's CRUD protocol
04:18	mindbender1	Though people mostly always choose to keep that bases hidden
06:07	mindbender1	(doc bases)
06:07	clojurebot	"([c]); Returns the immediate superclass and direct interfaces of c, if any"
06:10	chauncey	hi! how do I determine what profiles I am in (:dev, :release) from clojure and clojurescript alike?
06:11	chauncey	I used a distinct src-path with a profile-current.clj in it, but that doesn't work well with crossovers or cljs in general
06:11	chauncey	and seems hacky :(
06:16	hyPiRion	It seems rather hacky to try and find it out in the first place. Could you do what you try to achieve without doing it?
06:17	chauncey	yes, disable logging etc.
06:18	chauncey	all the stuff I use when developing
06:19	chauncey	so, I could set a loglevel var somewhere, but...
06:19	chauncey	there are some other things as well, and I don't want to forget and have it in my release version ^^
06:20	chauncey	Might of course be that there is something fundamentally wrong with my workflow, in that case I am happy to hear alternatives :)
06:21	ro_st	in clojure, an env var would do
06:22	ro_st	in cljs you'd have to write a .cljs file for the cljs compiler to pick up so that you can use its value conditionally in your cljs code
06:23	ro_st	or find a way to leverage gclosure compiler's conditional compilation. not sure if cljs compiler exposes it.
06:25	chauncey	I tried to do it with the dedicated file approach, I have a profiles/dev/profiles/current.clj and the same for release in clojure, and tried to crossover the profiles.current namespace
06:25	chauncey	unfortunately that seems to always take the one from the standard environment
06:25	chauncey	i.e. de
06:25	chauncey	v
06:26	chauncey	Is it so unusual to have an application behave differently in development and release?
06:27	chauncey	I could do it as a rpc, but that also doesn't feel right
06:30	ro_st	this is a dependency injection issue
06:32	hyPiRion	chauncey: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L63
06:32	hyPiRion	Look at the :injections thing.
06:32	ro_st	yeah, that'll solve clj.
06:34	hyPiRion	"lein help profiles"
06:39	ro_st	grr why can't cljs find goog.crypt.Md5
06:39	ro_st	it's in the jar
06:48	chauncey	um, okay... how about cljs?
06:49	ro_st	argh goog-jar you monstrosity
06:49	chauncey	:)
06:49	ro_st	chauncey: your cljs served via the web?
06:49	ro_st	or are you up to rhino/node.js shenanigans
06:50	chauncey	no, noir + cljs app
06:50	ro_st	then inject the env value into the call that starts your app
06:50	ro_st	my.app.ns.run(<here>)
06:50	ro_st	and drive that value from clj using your env var
06:51	chauncey	hm, that sounds like a good idea
06:51	chauncey	I'll try it, thanks
06:53	ro_st	hth :-)
07:30	zalentA-	sa
07:30	zalentA-	cs mac +1 olunur
09:06	mindbender1	Maths=Symbolic Nonsense
09:06	uvtc	How do I say, "if this regex matches, do $this with group 1 in the match"?
09:07	eni	can you use clojure apps in a java app easliy? if yes, can i see an example?
09:08	uvtc	That is to say, without repeating my call to re-find.
09:08	elzibub	uvtc: try re-seq
09:08	elzibub	eni: link clojure.jar and use Var from Java
09:10	mindbender1	eni: and other data structures
09:10	eni	what do you mean by other data structures, are there some code examples online?
09:17	uvtc	elzibub: Ok. Thanks. I ended up doing "(let [search-result ...] (if search-result (let [part (search-result 1) ..."
09:26	chouser	uvtc: you might consider if-let
09:27	uvtc	chouser: Ah, that would reduce indenting a bit. Thanks.
09:28	uvtc	Actually, I've got 2 regexes. If the first one matches, pull out group 1. If that fails, try another. Was thinking to try `cond`...
09:28	chouser	sure
09:29	chouser	people have written things that amount to let-cond, but none have caught on
09:31	grayzone	Hello everyone, I have a problem to import a protocol to another file CLJ: prompt returns ClassNotFound: can someone help me?
09:34	mindbender1	grayzone: it would make sense if you say what you did specifically
09:35	grayzone	ok : the command is : (import '[examples.midi MidiNote]) (from book 'Programming Clojure')
09:35	grayzone	but the response is : ClassNotFoundException examples.midi.MidiNote java.net.URLClassLoader$1.run (URLClassLoader.java:202)
09:36	uvtc	cemerick: re. travis email (clojure-clutch), that was weird.
09:38	grayzone	in example.midi has a (defprotocol MidiNote ..... )
09:39	mindbender1	grayzone: you have to be consistent, is it example or examples and I don't think it's a java class so you shouldn't be using import
09:40	mindbender1	read the book gently
09:41	mindbender1	grayzone: I have the book with me which page
09:41	grayzone	member:mindbender1 : you reason but the import has written by author ....
09:41	cemerick	uvtc: what travis email?
09:42	uvtc	cemerick: I just got one after you made that trivial change regarding the backtick in the readme. It said the build failed.
09:42	grayzone	mindbender1 : i attempt with (:require ....
09:43	mindbender1	grayzone: what's page are you on
09:43	cemerick	uvtc: so it did, but I didn't get an email :-/
09:44	grayzone	mindbender1 : i am at page 162 ... (2 edition) in sample generator.clj
09:44	cemerick	Looks like travis doesn't have a couchdb server running in the test environments anymore…
09:45	uvtc	cemerick: thanks for looking into it!
09:46	cemerick	Seems it needs to be requested in the .travis.yml file now
09:48	wumpwomp	anyone have experience with lacij? the create-graph function seems to be missing from graph.core...
09:49	mindbender1	grayzone: I think I have the 1st edition.
09:50	mindbender1	Anyway try with (require '[]) or (use '[]) i.e if you started in the repl correctly
09:51	mindbender1	you could also use (load-file ..). Use (doc fn) to check up the doc of the above fn
09:51	cemerick	uvtc: fixed up, thanks for letting me know. Bizarre that I didn't get an email on the failure.
09:52	uvtc	cemerick: {insert emoticon for "high-five"} :)
09:52	uvtc	o/
09:52	cemerick	\o
09:52	grayzone	mindbender1: thanks anyway for your interest : i attempt your suggestion (plse my bad english!)
09:52	cemerick	It's all love and plushy pink elephants here in #clojure. :-D
09:53	uvtc	It's so fluffy I'm gonna die!
09:55	clgv	grayzone: you probably do not have the examples directory on the classpath of your repl
09:56	grayzone	clgv: is possible .... i check ... thanks
10:06	grayzone	mindbender1-clgv: thanks the sample go : i resolved with : 1) add classpath until examples 2) change import with (:use [examples.midi :as mx])) ... thanks again for suggestion's
10:07	abalone	clojure misspelled as cloujure in a recent article on scala
10:07	abalone	yay
10:31	TimMc	cluejure
10:31	TimMc	kludger
10:57	mwcampbell	I'm brand new to Clojure, and not very experienced with any Lisp. Which book should I use to start learning Clojure?
10:58	ddima	I've not finished it myself yet, but I like The Joy of Clojure
10:58	scriptor	joy of clojure isn't aimed at beginners
10:58	uvtc	~clojurebook
10:58	clojurebot	ClojureBooks is http://clojure.org/books
10:58	ddima	it depends on how he likes to learn ;)
10:58	casion	what languages do you know now?
10:58	scriptor	mwcampbell: I've heard good things about http://www.clojurebook.com/
10:58	clgv	is there something like that [a b & rest] for map destructuring {a :a, b :b, :rest r} ?
10:58	ddima	with much pain or only just a little
10:58	uvtc	Oooh. Didn't know about that page. :)
10:59	jondot`	i guess this get asked a lot - anyone care to point to a mature actor library for clojure where actors can be distributed across machines transparently to the programming model?
11:00	mwcampbell	casion: Been working mostly with Python. I basically know the Java language, though my knowledge of the surrounding ecosystem is quite out of date. The last time I did anything serious with a Lisp was with Emacs Lisp in the late 90's, and I've forgotten most of what I knew about that.
11:00	casion	mwcampbell: http://www.clojurebook.com then
11:00	clgv	jondot`: some had the idea to use akka ad where fit write convenience functions/macro for it
11:01	casion	mwcampbell: it's nearly a clojure book for python or ruby programmers
11:02	uvtc	mwcampbell: I wrote up a brief beginner's guide http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/ that might be helpful to you. Also what casion said.
11:02	casion	mwcampbell: also http://jafingerhut.github.com/cheatsheet-clj-1.3/cheatsheet-tiptip-no-cdocs-summary.html is probably the most useful clojure related link IMO
11:04	casion	http://www.clojureatlas.com is also super cool (by one of the authors of the book suggested no less)
11:04	elzibub	clgv: Try [& {:keys [a b]}]
11:04	cemerick	casion: thanks :-)
11:05	clgv	elzibub: erm no. I want to select the keys and get the remaining keys ;)
11:05	elzibub	Coincidentally in 1st chapter of "Programming Clojure" I read at lunch - which is an excellent book and a far better tutorial than Joy
11:05	cemerick	and to all for your recommendations :-D
11:05	melipone	hello! I am trying to read a clojure map back in but I get this error: (def mymap (read-string (slurp "mymap.txt"))) RuntimeException Unreadable form clojure.lang.Util.runtimeException (Util.java:156) Any idea?
11:06	elzibub	clgv: This doesn't work then? [{:keys [a b]} & rest]
11:06	casion	elzibub: I personally far prefer 'programming clojure', but everyone I know who is into python/ruby seems to like 'clojure programming' better
11:06	casion	they're both great books though, I think it just depends on where you're coming from
11:06	elzibub	casion: Whooops... I meant Clojure Programming! But then I haven't read Programming Clojure
11:07	casion	and joy of clojure is amazing once you've got the basics down, I just started reading it and I absolutely love it
11:07	clgv	elzibub: the example is {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4} and I want to have (let [a 1, b 2, rest {:c 3 :d 4}] ... ) as the result from destructuring if there is a builtin way to do that ^^
11:07	elzibub	casion: I'm sure it's a great book once you're a year in
11:08	pepijndevos	what the hell does this function do? (Integer/bitCount (bitwise-and bitmap (- bit 1)))
11:09	jondot`	clgv: well i guess if i'm not using Akka, or Storm, is there any other library-like facility that I can build upon?
11:09	elzibub	clgv: To the REPL!
11:10	clgv	jondot`: there is an rpc lib called slacker but I am not sure if I wanted to use that to build anything
11:10	casion	pepijndevos: it should be explained in here http://lampwww.epfl.ch/papers/idealhashtrees.pdf
11:10	casion	it's on page 4 I think, I don't remember exactly
11:10	jondot`	also looked at this one: https://github.com/antoniogarrote/jobim
11:11	casion	and I think http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/ explains it as well
11:12	pepijndevos	casion: okay, will look at it
11:17	casion	pepijndevos: end of page 2 in the PDF where it explains finding sub-tries and how to calculate the arc (that's what the code you posted is doing)
11:17	elzibub	clgv: Can't see a way from CP book. Closest I can offer is to use {:keys a b :as all} then dissoc
11:18	pepijndevos	casion: oh, i read past it, I was on page 5 already
11:18	casion	pepijndevos: I would try to explain it myself, but I'm terrible with terminology and I just end up confusing people
11:18	melipone	ha! I found my error: I had an object stored in the map and not a string! euou euou!!
11:20	pepijndevos	casion: The paper does not explain the bit twiddling as far as I can see.
11:21	pepijndevos	just that there is a bitmap of 32 bits
11:23	casion	pepijndevos: ok, let me see if I can explain this and not create chaos
11:23	pepijndevos	casion: so I have a hash, which I and with 0b1111 after shifting it by chunks of 5. This gives me an int between 0 and 31.
11:23	casion	pepijndevos: yes
11:23	pepijndevos	casion: then I but that number in the function I just posted
11:24	casion	and that gives you the index
11:25	pepijndevos	casion: how does that happen?
11:26	casion	so what you're doing is getting the bit pop, you and it with bit-1 to get a mask of only that sub-trie (or index)
11:27	casion	it's because each index size isn't a fixed width
11:27	casion	so you have to mask it against the bit count to have an accurate mask
11:27	pepijndevos	aaaah, what? I thought ever index had 32
11:28	casion	see, I'm shit with explaining things :\|
11:28	pepijndevos	casion: no, it's starting to make sense. so you're mapping from 0-31 to the number of items you really have.
11:29	casion	pepijndevos: there you go
11:29	pepijndevos	casion: I still don't understand why the bitcount of the the thing adned minus one returns that.
11:30	pepijndevos	so the bitcount of the the bitmap is the length of the actual array
11:30	mwcampbell	Has any of the Clojure implementations been used to develop a native iOS application?
11:31	scriptor	pepijndevos: have you read the blog posts about clojure's vector and hashmap implementations?
11:31	nDuff	mwcampbell: I think there's intent for ClojureC to eventually be suitable for that.
11:31	casion	yeah, there's http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/ which explains it as well
11:31	casion	I think I linked that
11:32	pepijndevos	casion: that is the old version I think, there is a part two
11:33	pepijndevos	oh, i need to read this better
11:33	scriptor	pepijndevos: it does explain that line though
11:33	scriptor	with the bitcount
11:34	pepijndevos	cool
11:34	mwcampbell	nDuff: Ah, I didn't know ClojureC existed.
11:36	casion	there's a clojure targeted at objc as well
11:36	pepijndevos	want!
11:37	casion	https://github.com/jspahrsummers/objective-clojure
11:37	casion	and https://github.com/joshaber/clojurem
11:39	mwcampbell	I wonder if it would be better to invest effort in clojurescript-lua rather than C and ObjC targets. After al, LuaJIT provides a high-performance yet small-footprint VM and JIT, and I figure a good VM and JIT are a requirement for any performant Clojure implementation.
11:39	casion	mwcampbell: that's assuming effort on each 'port' is exclusive
11:40	casion	different people with different interests working on different things
11:41	mwcampbell	casion: There's always the danger of spreading the effort of a small community too thin though, right?
11:41	mwcampbell	Once I learn Clojure, I might start contributing to the Lua port
11:41	casion	mwcampbell: I don't see why, people are free to do as they wish
11:42	casion	how would you manage to concentrate effort? email the clojureC guys and tell them to go work on clojurescript-lua instead?
11:42	casion	I somehow have lost a cup of tea on my desk…maybe i should clean a bit today :\|
11:42	mwcampbell	casion: Touche; I'd probably be better off just working on clojurescript-lua myself if I'm interested in it
11:43	casion	mwcampbell: also, I'm far more interested in clojureC myself ;)
11:43	mwcampbell	casion: Why? Just curious
11:43	nDuff	mwcampbell: A lot of the "ports" are using common work originally done for cljs
11:44	nDuff	mwcampbell: ...so there's definitely common/combined effort.
11:44	casion	mwcampbell: I do embedded, and clojureC could be of use to me in that area
11:45	mwcampbell	casion: It depends on GLib though, right? That's a pretty hefty dependency, and an LGPL'd one at that
11:45	casion	mwcampbell: a boy can dream :)
11:46	mwcampbell	casion: Have you looked at LuaJIT? ~415k on x64, with impressive performance
11:46	casion	also glib works fine on arm, which I use often
11:46	mwcampbell	casion: and LuaJIT has ports to ARM and now MIPS
11:47	casion	mwcampbell: I did mess with lua, but I just never managed to find anything about it attractive
11:47	pepijndevos	casion: makes no sense… http://pastebin.com/4Hp40NNV
11:49	mwcampbell	casion: I'm not a big fan of Lua the language (though I've used it extensively in a project where it seemed like a good fit), but because LuaJIT is small, self-contained, liberally licensed, and quite fast, it seems to me that LuaJIT would be quite a good foundation for a Clojure implementation targeting embedded systems
11:50	mwcampbell	casion: So I will be looking more closely at clojurescript-lua
11:51	casion	pepijndevos: that looks right to me
11:51	casion	except the last few...
11:51	casion	hmmm
11:52	pepijndevos	casion: so there are 4 elements, so the indext fro the first is 4, and then for both 1 and 2 it's 0
11:58	clgv	pepijndevos: you can have that easier by the way ##2r10101010
11:58	pepijndevos	casion: 4 is out of bounds, right? and I kind of expected 5+ to have different results
11:58	clgv	,2r10101010
11:58	clojurebot	170
11:58	pepijndevos	oh :)
11:58	casion	5 is out of bounds I thought
11:59	pepijndevos	casion: I have 4 1 bits, so 4 elements, right, so that's 0,1,2,3
11:59	casion	oh, yes
12:01	pepijndevos	does not look right to me at all :(
12:01	pepijndevos	maybe some casting promoting signed blah is interfering?
12:01	casion	now you have me confused too
12:06	casion	,(Integer/bitCount (bit-and 2r00000000000000010000000010000101) (- 7 1))
12:06	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: bitCount, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:06	casion	pfft
12:06	casion	it gives 1… it should return 2
12:06	casion	:\
12:09	casion	pepijndevos: where is this code, I want to look… I thought I understood this but it's making zero sense now
12:09	pepijndevos	casion: yes. it does. I assume the Java version works correctly? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentHashMap.java#L575
12:11	casion	wait
12:11	casion	duh :\|
12:11	casion	ok
12:11	pepijndevos	what?
12:11	clojurebot	what is bla
12:11	casion	here, let me do a few and pastebin it for you
12:11	pepijndevos	ok
12:12	casion	bitpos isn't an int, it's a position in the int 2r10 is 2, 2r1000000 is 7
12:12	pepijndevos	wait, really?
12:13	pepijndevos	oh...
12:13	casion	http://pastebin.com/aAzeYFTb
12:13	casion	see?
12:13	pepijndevos	stupid infix notation
12:14	casion	bit is the position of the bit from the right in binary, not an integer representation
12:14	nDuff	casion: ...in the future, would you mind using refheap or gist.github.com? pastebin.com is full of ads for anyone not running adblock.
12:14	casion	nDuff: sure, I wasn't aware
12:14	pepijndevos	I read bitpos as shifting mask right one, because it has keys and values interleaved
12:14	pepijndevos	but it shifts one by mask :P
12:16	pepijndevos	now the -1 also makes more sense
12:16	casion	ok, good luck :) lunch meeting
12:17	pepijndevos	casion: diner for me, thanks a lot
12:22	uvtc	Can I compose regexes of other regexes (regexen? regexi?) ?
12:23	uvtc	re-pattern only takes one arg...
12:23	technomancy	uvtc: elisp has a symbolic regex representation that lets you compose things before they're compiled to actual regexes; kind of a cool idea
12:26	uvtc	technomancy: Any way to do it in Clojure? I've got the same regex repeated within a number of other regexen...
12:27	technomancy	it can probably be done with string mashing; haven't thought it through
12:27	xeqi	keeping strings around and using re-pattern?
12:27	uvtc	Oh, maybe (re-pattern (str s1 s2 ...)).
12:27	uvtc	Right.
12:27	uvtc	technomancy, xeqi: Thanks.
12:28	uvtc	But then I'd have to add extra backslashes into those strings.
12:46	borkdude	"but Ruby and Python code bases will go to Go" http://gigaom.com/cloud/will-go-be-the-new-go-to-programming-language/
12:46	borkdude	what's so special about it, anyone got experience with Go?
12:47	technomancy	I've looked at it briefly. the main thing about it is it's not C, and it has momentum.
12:47	emezeske	Go could possibly become an extremely efficient language, has pretty unobtrusive static typing, and has a lot of nice features that are higher-level than C
12:47	technomancy	FSVO "pretty unobtrusive"
12:47	technomancy	it's still utter crap compared to hindley-milner
12:48	nDuff	I've got a friend whose company is starting to use it where they can; from what he describes, development velocity is similar to that of Python, but with better runtime performance and type checking.
12:48	emezeske	technomancy: True enough.
12:49	technomancy	but I'm this close to giving up on ocaml; I don't expect I'd ever be able to convince anyone to use it.
12:49	emezeske	technomancy: Less obtrusive than C I guess is the point
12:49	technomancy	ocaml and go both target places the JVM is crap at
12:49	technomancy	emezeske: "better than getting kicked in the shins! check it out!"
12:50	mindbender1	Ocaml..that language is a beast
12:50	emezeske	technomancy: I don't like being kicked in the shins!
12:50	dnolen	borkdude: maybe Go users - I
12:50	technomancy	mostly it's the advocacy that bothers me; people come this close to implying that Go invented type inference.
12:50	dnolen	borkdude: er I mean maybe Python users. Less Ruby people I think. Go doesn't even have REPL
12:50	pandeiro	i started learning ocaml recently b/c i needed it installed for llpp and i wanted to like it, i really did
12:50	pandeiro	but i did not get very far
12:51	dnolen	Go & Dart - it's 2012 let's pretend McCarthy didn't exist
12:51	pandeiro	dnolen: u read my mind, i was wondering about a Go repl
12:51	pandeiro	i saw on HN recently someone created a kind of C repl using some debugging tool...
12:51	mindbender1	Novelty
12:51	emezeske	technomancy: Whoa, who does that? Silliness
12:52	technomancy	emezeske: well maybe it's unfair to extrapolate to Go users in general from hacker news
12:55	emezeske	technomancy: The way I view Go is as an absolutely practical language. E.g., the type inference is something just good enough, as well as some of the other features
12:56	technomancy	emezeske: yeah, as much as it bugs me I think the momentum it has outweighs the fact that ocaml is just plain better-designed.
12:57	technomancy	if it means that fewer C programs get written, that's a net win
13:00	dnolen	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=java&lang2=go, go
13:01	dnolen	's advantage over Java seems primarily in the area of memory usage
13:01	mindbender1	technomancy: have you gone through the handbook of automated reasoning and practical logic
13:01	dnolen	doesn't say much about memory behavior for non-trivial programs tho ...
13:01	borkdude	so how is that clojure 2 c compiler? could I advice anyone to program clojure for native code instead of Go?
13:02	borkdude	wasn't there something with clojure -> scheme -> c -> native or smth?
13:02	borkdude	haven't followed it closely
13:02	technomancy	mindbender1: haven't heard of it
13:02	mindbender1	It's based on Ocaml
13:03	mindbender1	Very advanced
13:04	mindbender1	For those moments when one is bored
13:04	Urthwhyte	Morning everyone - trying to get a SLIME like environment set up before a flight
13:04	Urthwhyte	Is VimClojure or Slimv better supported/recommended?
13:07	borkdude	I guess Go for native is the best option then
13:07	Urthwhyte	nDuff: I would do that if last time I tried emacs I didn't end up with lots of hand pain
13:07	borkdude	so Go is a very fast native language like C but has Pythonesque features in it, it sounds nice to me
13:07	Urthwhyte	and it would give my roommate too much satisfaction to see me switch ;)
13:07	emezeske	Urthwhyte: My understanding is that VimClojure is more clojure-specific; slimv is for CL but has special case support for clojure
13:08	emezeske	Urthwhyte: VimClojure is reasonably easy to set up if you use lein-tarsier
13:08	hoover_damm	I guess that's what I get for being a multi-editor user who just uses what works best
13:08	Urthwhyte	If you had years of muscle memory in an editor it makes it very hard to switch
13:08	scriptor	hoover_damm: in this case, it's good to know what's better supported and just in general considered better practice
13:08	hoover_damm	sure I get hand cramps with vim when I accidentally hit ^S
13:08	emezeske	hoover_damm: Lock-in can happen when you have muscle memory for >100 key bindings
13:08	hoover_damm	or other keys
13:09	dnolen	borkdude: there's a ClojureC project
13:09	borkdude	ok… I am mentally ready now to install nrepl.el
13:09	hoover_damm	emezeske, I started using ed over 20 years ago and then moved to vi
13:09	hoover_damm	emezeske, I truly look at the whole editor groan and get confused
13:09	technomancy	feels like navigating with mittens on
13:10	hoover_damm	emezeske, I am able to use nano, vi, emacs, ed without grumping or caring
13:10	Hodapp	I keep getting pissed off at :ClojureRepl when I use lein-tarsier, because I'll be wanting to switch windows and I'll hit Ctrl-W W, but if I do that accidentally when the REPL is in insert mode, it just erases the prompt and the REPL is angry
13:10	hoover_damm	emezeske, obviously nano with clojure would be pure pain
13:10	technomancy	hoover_damm: maybe starting with ed has imbued with super editor powers =)
13:10	hoover_damm	(at least it feels pretty painful to me)
13:10	emezeske	hoover_damm: Well, either you have spent the time to develop muscle memory for each of those editors, or you don't use any of their advanced features
13:11	emezeske	hoover_damm: Either way, you can't just tell people to stop groaning
13:11	hoover_damm	technomancy, I would like to think people are overcaring more and just need to relax and try it
13:11	dnolen	on the Clojure native front this looks really interesting http://www.ravenbrook.com/project/mps/
13:11	Urthwhyte	I just want a repl with working tab-complete and navigating back and forth between older and newer commands
13:11	dnolen	GC used in Harlequin Dylan and MLWorks I believe
13:11	emezeske	hoover_damm: Either they have to spend time developing muscle memory, or they have to drop the idea of having advanced features
13:11	Hodapp	Urthwhyte: and have you found one?
13:11	hoover_damm	because you learn you grow
13:11	dnolen	sounds like Open Dylan is using it as well
13:11	no7hing	on agents: anybody had problems with the error handler, as in the passed agent wasn't in error state?
13:11	mindbender1	With emacs..all your computer comes to party
13:11	Urthwhyte	Hodapp: Having some trouble getting slivm working due to what looks like classpath issues
13:11	hoover_damm	emezeske, everytime I hear advanced features and not the word emacs... I laugh
13:12	Hodapp	Anyone know a REPL that is as Urthwhyte describes?
13:12	technomancy	hoover_damm: it's not about editors so much as losing access to an embedded lisp in everything I do.
13:12	Urthwhyte	but having just escaped the gravitational vortex that is the Google codebase I do not want to deal with that for at least a couple of days
13:12	emezeske	hoover_damm: So you're some kind of editor elitist? I don't understand your position at all.
13:12	hoover_damm	technomancy, loosing access to embedded lisp is :(
13:12	Hodapp	technomancy: you use Emacs then?
13:13	Urthwhyte	I'd be comfortable enough with something that was irb/ipython for clj, doesn't even need to integrate with my editor
13:13	mindbender1	emezeske: has he taken a position?
13:13	Urthwhyte	I can do that comfortably enough with some inotify magic
13:13	technomancy	Hodapp: yes, and I pretend that Conkeror is implemented in a lisp as well even though it's not =(
13:13	cemerick	Hodapp: either Counterclockwise or Emacs are safe bets.
13:13	hoover_damm	emezeske, if i'm an editor elitest it's because I can use almost any editor with advanced features
13:13	technomancy	Hodapp: it still has M-: where you can quickly eval code snippets though
13:13	technomancy	and dotfile support
13:13	hoover_damm	emezeske, and try and learn new editors and :) keep learning
13:13	Hodapp	I'm currently a vim user but I suppose I could attempt to learn Emacs...
13:14	Cheiron	when documenting defs, is is better to include ^{:doc "..."} or to use comments above the declaration?
13:14	hoover_damm	learning is the wholt point
13:14	mindbender1	that looks like me when I was looking for a house to rent
13:14	hoover_damm	rejecting part of what you accept is normal
13:14	hoover_damm	and learning something new
13:14	cemerick	hoover_damm: use a docstring
13:14	technomancy	Cheiron: you can put in a proper docstring without ^:doc syntax
13:14	hoover_damm	whole*
13:14	technomancy	hoover_damm: but programs that don't have a repl are objectively worse
13:14	Hodapp	hoover_damm: Sometimes you want to debug your program, not debug your environment.
13:14	cemerick	hoover_damm: sorry, meant that for Cheiron :-)
13:14	emezeske	hoover_damm: Sometimes, you have to stop "learning and growing," and actually get shit done
13:15	mindbender1	right
13:15	Hodapp	Using Clojure is basically by definition not learning something different, say, ASM.
13:15	Cheiron	docstring without ^{:doc} ? how?
13:16	aniero	(defn foo "docstring" [& args] ... ) ?
13:17	Cheiron	i'm talking about def not defn
13:17	Cheiron	like (def url ".....")
13:20	no7hing	is it expected that the failed agent in the gist is not in failed state? https://gist.github.com/3723317
13:21	no7hing	restart-agent blocks
13:21	mindbender1	By the way, our chosen programming language OCaml is derived from Edinburgh
13:21	mindbender1	ML, which was expressly designed for writing theorem proving programs
13:21	mindbender1	(Gordon, Milner and Wadsworth 1979) and whose name stands for Meta
13:21	mindbender1	Language
13:22	Urthwhyte	Anyone know where clojure.jar would be if I installed it from the ubuntu repos?
13:22	cark	in emacs+nrepl, how does one kill the java process ?
13:22	cark	cleanly
13:23	technomancy	cark: there's an open ticket for that
13:23	jjido	Urthwhyte no, but did you check JAVA_HOME?
13:23	technomancy	for now kill the nrepl-server buffer
13:23	cark	technomancy: oh ok thanks
13:23	technomancy	Urthwhyte: in general... don't?
13:23	technomancy	Urthwhyte: apt-get is for installing applications, it's not useful for installing libraries alone.
13:23	Hodapp	alright, technomancy, I'm installing Emacs here. If I look like Richard Stallman in a month, I'm blaming you.
13:24	technomancy	Hodapp: I disclaim all responsibility
13:24	Hodapp	technomancy: I already have a lawyer on retainer
13:24	technomancy	I can't actually remember the last time I suggested someone try Emacs in this channel.
13:24	technomancy	pretty sure it's been over a year.
13:25	Hodapp	technomancy: what editor do you recommend?
13:25	technomancy	Hodapp: most of the time I have to tell people to not try to learn Emacs and Clojure at the same time
13:25	technomancy	it's too much to take in at once
13:26	technomancy	when you're learning Clojure, use what you already know. once you've got Clojure down then maybe consider switching things up.
13:27	borkdude	wasn't clojure written to get more people to use emacs? then was was the point, I forgot… ;)
13:27	Cheiron	while the question isn't targeting me, but I prefer Sublime Text 2 for Clojure dev
13:28	no7hing	bork: i thought that was erlang
13:29	aniero	i'm using vim :P
13:29	borkdude	yay, nrepl.el works
13:30	nDuff	...Emacs for Clojure, IDEA for Java.
13:30	aniero	lein-tarsier + vimclojure is pretty decent
13:31	Urthwhyte	I've heard bad things about the vimclojure repl though?
13:32	Urthwhyte	in terms of feature-completeness?
13:33	mefesto	Hello everyone :)
13:35	mefesto	I'm experimenting around with riak + clojurewerkz/welle and was wondering if when performing a map-reduce if it's common that the js functions are raw strings? Is it common to store these in resource files and load them as strings then?
13:35	antares_	mefesto: absolutely
13:35	antares_	clojurewerkz.support.js lets you load them from classpath without hassle
13:35	antares_	sorry that it does not have any docs
13:35	mefesto	antares_: great thanks for the tip! :)
13:35	antares_	(I am the author of Welle, by the way)
13:36	mefesto	antares_: well so far im really liking it. the docs are pretty good. just the map-reduce side seems a bit light but otherwise great stuff!
13:37	antares_	https://github.com/clojurewerkz/support/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/support/js.clj#L29 is the function you need
13:37	antares_	yes, the map/reduce part is worth writing a book on
13:37	antares_	also, I think that Riak's own docs can cover it much better, there is little client-specific about M/R
13:38	mefesto	yeah i was watching some of their vimeo vids
13:40	borkdude	nice blog: processing large files in clojure, exactly something I did recently, I should have used this approach for it: http://blog.malcolmsparks.com/?p=17
13:42	uvtc	borkdude: Your hunch about the Emacs + Clojure relationship is correct. It's now obvious where the name comes from. CLOJURE: Capture Lispers Overall Judiciously Usher Recruits to Emacs.
13:43	borkdude	yes
13:46	antares_	mefesto: I have to step away, let me know how it goes with Welle
13:46	antares_	mefesto: also, do complain about the docs, it is my favorite feature
13:46	mefesto	will do
13:46	borkdude	gtg
14:06	mefisto	emacs is the free software borg
14:06	mefisto	if you start using it, you will be assimilated
14:06	pistolpete	I am using emacs==>erc right now. I am assimilated.
14:09	pistolpete	question: I'm looking to do some basic (static) web design. I'm coming from ruby/jekyll, and I've seen clojure tools like nakkaya/static and liquidz/misaki. I'm considering nakkaya/static because I like hiccup. Is there a better option?
14:09	technomancy	pistolpete: you don't need much for a static site generator
14:10	technomancy	the seajure web site has one; it's pretty simple to build from scratch
14:10	antares_	pistolpete: haven't used any of those but why are you not happy with jekyll?
14:11	pistolpete	antares_: I'd like to put a bit of logic into some of the includes to prevent myself from repeating code.
14:12	pistolpete	technomancy: thanks, I'll take a look at the seajure web site. Maybe I'll just build one myself -- am I assuming correctly that all I need is hiccup and a few clojure functions?
14:12	pistolpete	I'm still quite new at Clojure
14:13	Apage43	heh, I gave up on my static site generator search because I couldn't find one that had good support for a markdown varient with footnotes and good clojure highlighting
14:13	Apage43	*variant
14:14	pistolpete	antares_: and my secret reason is that I love using hiccup/writing html in sexpr form.
14:14	antares_	pistolpete: I see :) then use whichever uses hiccup
14:14	Apage43	my current solution is running first through multimarkdown, and then through a python script which pulls out the code chunks with beautifulsoup and pygmentizes them
14:14	technomancy	seajure uses enlive but swapping out that should be trivial
14:14	pistolpete	antares_: problem -- both use hiccup ;-)
14:15	pistolpete	ohh cool
14:17	pistolpete	technomancy: should I be looking at enlive in the long run anyway, or are they equivalent in power/concise-ness?
14:17	antares_	pistolpete: I think enlive is a bit different in scope but yes, more or less
14:17	technomancy	pistolpete: enlive transforms can be really hard to understand. I wouldn't recommend it unless you're going to have people working on templates who don't know Clojure.
14:18	pistolpete	antares_ & technomancy: thanks!
14:18	technomancy	yeah, also it sucks not being able to use paredit on your templates =)
14:19	pistolpete	Apage43: same here
14:19	technomancy	also, hiccup: http://screencrave.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/How-To-Train-Your-Dragon-Hiccup-and-Astrid-25-3-10-kc.jpg
14:21	pistolpete	haha
14:22	mefesto	i created an nrepl server using nrepl-jack-in from emacs. is there a way to kill the server from emacs?
14:26	pistolpete	technomancy: sorry, what could the seajure static-site-generator be called? I'm not seeing it in the projects list there.
14:26	technomancy	it's just here: https://github.com/Seajure/seajure
14:26	pistolpete	d'oh, thanks!
14:27	technomancy	mefesto: right now you have to just kill nrepl-server; there's an open ticket for making that not suck
14:31	zmaril	If I'm writing a macro, how can I get the macro to find the name of the variable I've passed into the macro?
14:32	_ulises	evening all, I wrote (translated from a blog post) an implementation of Fizz-Buzz using Church Encodings and I'm interested in feedback in both the code and the narrative. Any takers? https://www.refheap.com/paste/5073/fullscreen
14:32	_ulises	here are the tests for the code https://www.refheap.com/paste/5074/fullscreen
14:32	dnolen	zmaril: what do you mean by name of the "variable"? Do you mean the symbol?
14:32	zmaril	Yes
14:33	dnolen	zmaril: the string representation of the symbol? name
14:33	zmaril	I would like to get the name of the symbol and use that
14:35	cch1	,(+ 1 2 3)
14:35	clojurebot	6
14:36	cch1	OK, weird problem with macros + closures....
14:36	cch1	,(defmacro m [x] (let [f (fn [] (println x))] `(~f)))
14:36	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
14:36	cch1	(defmacro m [x] (let [f (fn [] (println x))] `(~f)))
14:37	cch1	That macro can't be run. It's just a simple closure over the arg passed to the macro, run from the expanded code.
14:37	cch1	Can anybody explain why it fails?
14:38	dnolen	cch1: that's not really how macros are supposed to work.
14:39	dnolen	perhaps you want (defmacro m [x] (let [f `(fn [] (println ~x))] `(~f)))
14:39	cch1	dnolen: yep -that's what I ended up with.
14:40	DaoWen	clojuredocs lists a -?>> operator in clojure.contrib.core, but now that contrib doesn't really exist anymore I can't figure out where this ended up. It doesn't seem to be in clojure.core, otherwise I'd be available by default. Did it just get dropped?
14:41	zmaril	dnolen: Great! It works now
14:41	zmaril	(defmacro shame-println [v] `(println ~(name v) ~v)) (def testing {:a 1}) (shame-println testing)
14:41	S11001001	DaoWen: core.incubator
14:41	zmaril	;; testing {:a 1}
14:41	dnolen	zmaril: cool
14:41	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:41	S11001001	DaoWen: where did clojure contrib go lists that as the new location of c.c.core
14:41	S11001001	~contrib
14:41	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
14:41	zmaril	Thanks!
14:42	S11001001	~flatten
14:42	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
14:42	DaoWen	S11001001: thanks!
14:43	mmitchell	~reductions
14:43	clojurebot	excusez-moi
14:44	S11001001	mmitchell: no reductions is cool so no clojurebot complaints about it
14:44	S11001001	clojurebot only complains, no praise
14:45	mmitchell	hilarious
14:45	mefisto	like an alcoholic father :(
14:50	abaranosky	hey guys, using clj-http, I was trying to test that my server returns the appropriate response w/ a 400 status when it receives bad paramters -- but clj-http will throw an exception in this case. What do you all use to test this type of things?
14:51	mefesto	abaranosky: i think there is an option you can pass that will disable that behavior
14:51	mefesto	:throw-exceptions false
14:52	drewr	mefesto is correct
14:52	mefesto	abaranosky: (client/get url {:throw-exceptions false})
14:52	abaranosky	thanks @mefesto, appreciated
14:54	brainproxy	can I get cond-let for clojure 1.4? hunting around in the libs section of clojure.org...
15:05	antares_	brainproxy: clojure.org is a waste of time. For new contrib, see http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go but I don't think cond-let was extracted.
15:07	Sgeo_	Are there Clojure libraries for exact real numbers?
15:08	gfredericks	Sgeo_: curious what you mean exactly by that
15:08	gfredericks	algebraics?
15:09	brainproxy	antares_: okay, well, I just copied the macro's source from clojuredocs.org ... i don't see anything in the macro that should be a problem for clojure 1.4
15:10	Sgeo_	Suppose a and pi are exact reals, in the sense that I mean, and I add them to get c. c is "exact" in that there's sufficient information to, for example, request any finite number of decimal digits and display them
15:10	Sgeo_	And those digits will be correct (modulo rounding or truncation at the end)
15:10	Sgeo_	Example representation: A lazy list of decimal digits
15:10	gfredericks	fascinating
15:11	Sgeo_	Said lazy list would conceptually be infinite, thus representing any real (although, since most reals are not computable, most reals are not actually representable, I guess)
15:12	antares_	brainproxy: yes, it very likely will work, just no library to conveniently get it
15:13	scriptor	Sgeo_: so as a very simple example, you could represent the digits of pi as an infinite list of pi's digits?
15:14	Sgeo_	scriptor, yes
15:14	Sgeo_	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Exact_real_arithmetic
15:15	scriptor	hmm, the first thing I thought of was trying to use infinite series
15:18	Sgeo_	Well, a list of digits is a series
15:18	Sgeo_	Although specifying "series" rather than "digits" is probably easier, come to think of it
15:19	Sgeo_	I think though that various existing Haskell libraries are more likely to have clues to efficient implementations
15:32	mefesto	antares_: map and reduce functions take an arg parameter. how do i specify that value with welle?
15:39	antares_	mefesto: https://github.com/michaelklishin/welle/blob/master/test/clojurewerkz/welle/test/mr_test.clj#L98
16:10	gfredericks	Sgeo_: I'm trying to prove to myself that what you're describing is impossible
16:10	gfredericks	e.g., what is the first digit of (+ (repeat 3) (repeat 6))?
16:11	gfredericks	(assume those represent 0.333... and 0.666...)
16:12	Sgeo_	Mathematically, the result would be 0.999... which is equal to one. It might be impossible to have the computer display 1 instead of 0.999..., but that doesn't mean 0.999... is a wrong result
16:12	gfredericks	well
16:12	gfredericks	assume (repeat 3 3) and (repeat 3 6) represent 0.333 and 0.666
16:13	gfredericks	you ask for the first digit and it should give 9
16:13	gfredericks	but it has to run to the end of the list to make sure it's not e.g. 0.334 + 0.666, in which case it's 1.0 instead of 0.9
16:13	gfredericks	but if the list is infinite, it can't return
16:13	Sgeo_	Ah.
16:14	Sgeo_	Maybe that representation isn't good, then
16:14	gfredericks	I think binary has the same issue
16:14	Kowboy	hello!
16:14	gfredericks	Sgeo_: I know there are reasonable ways to do math with algebraics, but it's a lot more complicated than rationals
16:16	mattmoss	,(+ 1/3 2/3)
16:16	clojurebot	1N
16:16	hyPiRion	,(apply + (map float [1/10 9/10]))
16:16	clojurebot	0.9999999776482582
16:16	hyPiRion	,(apply + (map double [1/10 9/10]))
16:16	clojurebot	1.0
16:16	mattmoss	woo!
16:16	hiredman	gfredericks: what I think you are missing, is whenever you want a concrete value from an operation like +, you need to specify the precision you want
16:17	gfredericks	hiredman: so if I ask for a precision of 50 digits, I still can't be sure that the first digit is accurate
16:18	hiredman	so the value of (+ (repeat 3) (repeat 6)) is effectively a function that calculates it with a given precision
16:18	mefesto	antares_: ah thanks again
16:18	gfredericks	but I suppose I can be sure that the result is nonetheless quite close
16:18	Sgeo	Eep, computer went weird
16:18	gfredericks	hiredman: so as long as we don't insist on the correctness of particular digits, which Sgeo wanted
16:18	Sgeo	What happened after <Sgeo_> Maybe that representation isn't good, then
16:18	mattmoss	The perils of doing math with merely potential numbers.
16:19	mattmoss	Or the reverse. One of those.
16:23	Sgeo	Another representation, that at least works well for addition and subtraction, is a lazy sequence of vectors, the first item in the vector being a minimum, and the second being a maximum
16:23	Sgeo	The two values get closer later in the seq
16:24	Sgeo	(Although such a representation also means it's possible to construct nonsense numbers)
16:31	holo	hi
16:40	dnolen	holo: hello
16:52	uvtc	I wrote a little Clojure program to colorize and htmlize the #clojure irc logs that Raynes publishes. I'm hoping someone here might be able to have a look at and critique it. The code is at https://gist.github.com/3724690 . Sample output is at http://unexpected-vortices.com/temp/2012-09-14.txt.html .
16:52	technomancy	uvtc: lack of wrap there always bugged me
16:52	Raynes	uvtc: Not bad at all.
16:52	Raynes	uvtc: I like it. :D
16:52	technomancy	uvtc: feature request: use the same nick coloring algorithm as erc-hl-nicks =D
16:53	Raynes	uvtc: Feature request: add anchors to messages so I can link to specific ones.
16:53	uvtc	You can do that.
16:54	Raynes	Oh
16:54	Raynes	timestamps
16:54	Raynes	Gotcha
16:54	technomancy	it's a pretty good algorithm
16:54	Raynes	Cool. Wanna have my babies?
16:54	technomancy	it normalizes for trailing ` and _ chars
16:54	uvtc	I just removed the underlines since I thought it made it look cluttered.
16:54	uvtc	Raynes: hehehe
16:55	uvtc	technomancy: my current algorithm is: find all users, then: (zipmap users (cycle colors)))
16:55	amalloy	uvtc: pretty nice. some of the colors are uncomfortably bright/pale on the white background for me
16:55	aperiodic	uvtc: right-align the nicks, and maybe leave the text uncolored?
16:55	technomancy	yeah, agreed that the actual text should be monochrome
16:55	technomancy	leathekd did the erc module; it's pretty great
16:55	uvtc	Really? Hm. Interesting. Thought the colors made it easier to scan through and see who wrote what.
16:56	uvtc	Any feedback on the code itself?
16:56	technomancy	there are already lines for that
16:56	TimMc	uvtc: Timestamps should underline on hover.
16:56	technomancy	...though I could go for something that did similarity analysis on nicks and ensured that nicks that looked similar would have colors that weren't too close
16:56	uvtc	TimMc: Ah. Right. Thanks.
16:56	technomancy	also ponies
16:56	technomancy	preferably several
16:56	uvtc	Ponies. Hm. Tricky. Unicorns ok?
16:57	technomancy	only if they're pegasus-unicorn hybrids.
16:57	uvtc	amalloy: Yes, it's difficult to come up with a large list of colors that look sufficiently different from eachother.
16:57	uvtc	technomancy: I will have to talk to our breeding unit and see what they can do.
16:57	TimMc	Gravatars.
16:58	nsxt	any way to dynamically generate a namespaced keyword besides prepending a colon?
16:58	uvtc	TimMc: Hm! Gravatars. Interesting.
16:58	TimMc	Or 5 colored rectangles next to each nick. More visual data.
16:58	TimMc	nsxt: ##(keyword "foo/bar")
16:58	lazybot	⇒ :foo/bar
16:59	amalloy	uvtc: passing around user-colors all over feels like a bit of a hassle. what about defining a function that takes a username and returns a randomly-selected color, and memoizing it?
16:59	technomancy	,(-> keyword var meta :arglists)
16:59	TimMc	md5 of username
16:59	clojurebot	([name] [ns name])
16:59	technomancy	nsxt: ^
16:59	TimMc	oooh
17:00	uvtc	amalloy: At first it was a global, then I thought better of it, but had to thread that user-colors map through a handful of functions.
17:00	aperiodic	it would be cool if evaluation requests to the bots were in a monospaced font
17:00	technomancy	amalloy: it would shift every day then
17:00	technomancy	aperiodic: aw yezz
17:00	uvtc	aperiodic: Oooh. That would be cool.
17:01	uvtc	amalloy: will look into memoizing.
17:01	uvtc	Thanks for the feedback, all.
17:01	clojurebot	We live to serve.
17:01	technomancy	don't make it random
17:01	nsxt	technomancy: i don't follow :(
17:01	technomancy	it needs to be consistent across regenerations
17:01	amalloy	technomancy: wat. it will shift exactly as often as his current random-zipmap
17:01	amalloy	using md5 or something is nice if you want to be consistent, although i don't think anyone looks at these logs often enough to care about that
17:02	technomancy	=(
17:02	amalloy	i already have different colors at home and at work due to 64/32-bit differences or something like that
17:02	technomancy	well I'm not the one writing it. get it into a proper repo and I'll make a pull req if I get annoyed with the random colors =)
17:04	aperiodic	i get irritated even when someone's nick gets truncated/underscored and they start showing up as a different color
17:04	technomancy	aperiodic: yeah leathekd fixed my client so it normalizes across that. <3
17:04	uvtc	Variety is the spice of life... :)
17:05	aperiodic	technomancy: ooh! man, i should really use a client that doesn't require knowing perl to hack on
17:05	technomancy	it's only 40 lines or so, I should port it
17:05	aperiodic	i would love you forever
17:06	technomancy	port it to clojure I mean
17:06	technomancy	not touching perl
17:06	technomancy	not even for you =)
17:06	aperiodic	drat!
17:06	technomancy	https://github.com/leathekd/erc-hl-nicks/blob/master/erc-hl-nicks.el#L125
17:06	scriptor	so…who's writing the clojure->perl compiler?
17:07	technomancy	it's only 4 functions
17:07	uvtc	Another way to do it is to just have set colors for folks who ask.
17:07	technomancy	heh; assign it by pull requests
17:08	technomancy	Issue #23: clojurebot should totally be pink
17:08	uvtc	Will work on that tonight.
17:08	hiredman	that is the obvious color
17:08	uvtc	How about lazybot?
17:08	uvtc	lazybot: favorite color?
17:09	uvtc	clojurebot: what's lazybot's favorite color?
17:09	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc?al?
17:09	technomancy	clojurebot: mind your encodings
17:09	clojurebot	Titim gan ?ir? ort.
17:09	technomancy	you're hopeless
17:10	amalloy	&(Integer/toHexString (rand-int (apply * (repeat 24 2))))
17:10	lazybot	⇒ "6b55a4"
17:10	amalloy	not bad, i guess
17:10	TimMc	,(str "#" (.substring (Long/toString 36rlazybot 16) 0 6))
17:10	clojurebot	"#acc502"
17:10	technomancy	nice
17:11	TimMc	I'm sure that could be condensed witha format string.
17:11	amalloy	it's just 4 characters with cl-pprint, probably
17:16	TimMc	,(format "#%06x" (mod 36rlazybot 16rFFFFFF))
17:16	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class clojure.lang.RT>
17:16	TimMc	okay...
17:16	TimMc	&(format "#%06x" (mod 36rlazybot 16rFFFFFF))
17:16	lazybot	⇒ "#503579"
17:16	TimMc	Apparently format doesn't have a truncation option for ints.
17:18	Mandar	hey there
17:19	hyPiRion	Humm
17:20	amalloy	TimMc: you don't want to use mod there
17:21	amalloy	do you? maybe you do. i didn't think the math through
17:21	amalloy	right, i'm dumb. mod is fine
17:23	Mandar	how can i search the docs for what the ` symbol does?
17:24	Mandar	i've tried running (find-doc "`")
17:24	nDuff	Mandar: it's called syntax-quote
17:24	nDuff	Mandar: ...if that helps you search.
17:24	TimMc	Mandar: clojure.org/reader
17:24	Mandar	(find-doc "syntax-quote") doesn't return anything either
17:24	TimMc	That page covers the reader syntax.
17:24	Mandar	thanks TimMc
17:26	amalloy	it's also not a symbol
17:27	Mandar	how is it called amalloy?
17:27	amalloy	i dunno. i guess it's a reader macro? thinking of it as a prefix character is probably best
17:28	Mandar	(type `) doesn't run either
17:31	scriptor	Mandar: clojure syntax quotes something before it's evaluated, there's no way to refer to ` on its own
17:33	Mandar	http://pastie.org/4722271
17:33	nDuff	Mandar: ...yes, meant that for purposes of searching the web. The reader isn't self-documenting.
17:33	Mandar	why is the second form better than the first one?
17:33	nDuff	...uhh.
17:33	nDuff	Huh?
17:33	nDuff	Why would it be better?
17:33	Mandar	i don't know, that's what the koan's comment says
17:34	nDuff	Which koan?
17:34	nDuff	...I mean, syntax-quote makes much more sense when you're mixing dereferences with literal content
17:34	nDuff	which is usually the case when writing macros
17:34	Mandar	macros.clj
17:34	nDuff	but that particular example really doesn't do a good job of demonstrating what it's good for.
17:35	Mandar	maytbe i didn't fill the blank rights
17:35	Mandar	right*
17:35	Mandar	the test runs but it might not be the best answer
17:38	Mandar	i don't get it
17:38	Mandar	~(second form) is needed to actually apply the operation operator
17:38	clojurebot	Alles klar
17:39	Mandar	but why ~(first form)
17:39	scriptor	Mandar: it's better because using syntax-quote is more idiomatic
17:39	scriptor	you can use list and so on, but that gets verbose fast
17:39	scriptor	at least, that's what I think they mean
17:39	Mandar	sure but i just don't understand the code
17:40	Mandar	(first form) returns a number
17:40	Mandar	what does "unquote a number" mean?
17:41	nDuff	Mandar: ...so, by default, you would get the literal list ('first 'form)
17:41	scriptor	Mandar: so, say you entered `(second form)
17:41	nDuff	Mandar: ...you wouldn't be running the function at all.
17:41	aperiodic	Mandar: you're not unquoting the number, you're unquoting the (first form) form
17:41	scriptor	that would have the macro return (second form) and place it where you called the macro
17:42	scriptor	if you did `(~(second form)) it would evaluate the part that's unquoted (second form) in this case
17:42	scriptor	which would return +
17:42	scriptor	so then the macro return (+)
17:46	Mandar	i still don't get what ~(first form) does
17:46	Mandar	what's the type of the returned value?
17:46	Mandar	is it a raw list?
17:46	scriptor	Mandar: so we're agreed form is (9 + 1) right?
17:46	Mandar	yes
17:47	scriptor	so ~(first form) tells clojure that we are no longer syntax quoting,
17:47	scriptor	but instead, we want to actually evaluate that code
17:47	scriptor	so (first form) returns the first element of form
17:47	Mandar	but doesn't (first form) evaluate it already?
17:47	scriptor	no
17:48	scriptor	because of the syntax quote
17:48	Mandar	oh
17:48	nDuff	Think about a regular, non-syntax quote
17:48	nDuff	'(first form) doesn't get evaluated
17:48	Mandar	yes
17:48	nDuff	and in fact, _nothing_ in that quote does
17:48	nDuff	syntax quotes do that, but give you an escape hatch
17:48	Mandar	but i thought the syntax quote would be applied at the end
17:48	Mandar	like a regular function
17:48	scriptor	Mandar: nope, the syntax quote is applied before pretty much anything
17:48	nDuff	No -- that's why we pointed you to the reader documentation
17:48	nDuff	the reader does its work before anything else
17:49	Mandar	sorry, i was trying my best
17:49	scriptor	Mandar: learn about regular quote first
17:49	scriptor	and the difference between quote: ' and syntax-quote `
17:50	Mandar	i think i now understand what it does, it says "do not evalue this, unless ~ tells you to"
17:51	nDuff	There's more than just ~
17:51	nDuff	there's also ~@, for instance
17:51	scriptor	Mandar: you're on the right track, but syntax quote also namespace qualifies every symbol
17:51	nDuff	really do read the reader documentation
17:51	scriptor	actually, I suggest a book or something more introductiony to teach you about macros
17:52	Mandar	nDuff, the documentation is quite hard to understand at my level
17:52	Raynes	The reader documentation is as useful to a person new to Lisp as telling them to read the reader documentation is.
17:52	nDuff	Mandar: Fair 'nuff -- the clojure.org docs are indeed not nearly as good as the better dead-tree books published.
17:53	scriptor	are there any good stand-alone clojure macro tutorials?
17:53	Mandar	i'm not criticizing anything, i know i need to learn about this stuff and i'm grateful for the help
17:54	Mandar	i'll get a book after i'm done with the koans
17:54	Mandar	but i need to build a toy project first
17:55	scriptor	Mandar: just stay clear from macros for now…unless you feel particularly adventurous ;)
17:55	Mandar	i was just curious :)
18:00	technomancy	it would be nice if clojure.org were actually a resource you could rely upon to get started with clojure
18:01	scriptor	well, a couple of links in does get you http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started
18:04	aperiodic	oh sure, at the bottom of a page linked to halfway down the sidebar that starts by telling you to download the clojure jar and launch it with `java` :/
18:06	scriptor	it's just practice for when you have to grapple with the classpath, emacs, and clojure all at the same time
18:07	aperiodic	that's the impression it gives me
18:08	Mandar	thanks guys, i finally understood the difference between ` and '
18:09	technomancy	muhoo: unless they're paying for training, in which case clojure.com covers them just fine =)
18:18	muhoo	of course, it makes perfect sense now. i'd never looked at that site before. now i get it.
18:31	Mandar	what book would you advise to a beginner?
18:31	Mandar	(and i don't especially mean "closure for dummies")
18:35	no7hing	somebody should tell them that http://clojure.com/roadshow gives a 404
18:43	jk12	netbeans or eclipse for windows clojure dev? have no prior experience in either
18:44	casion	seems counterclockwise is more up to date
18:47	jk12	casion: thanks
18:48	no7hing	should the agent in http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/set-error-handler! be the failed one?
18:48	no7hing	should/is
18:49	no7hing	ah, confused, i meant the agent the actual handler get's passed
18:49	no7hing	kind of late here
19:00	muhoo	Mandar: clojurebook.com
19:00	Mandar	muhoo, thanks :)
19:16	percious	hello out there, total clojure gumby here, coming from the python world, old-school lisp programmer
19:17	Khaoz	o/
19:18	percious	is there a good free clojure IDE?
19:18	percious	for a mac?
19:18	nDuff	percious: Most folks prefers emacs, but that has a learning curve if you've never used it.
19:18	nDuff	~survey
19:18	clojurebot	survey is http://cemerick.com/2012/08/06/results-of-the-2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
19:18	nDuff	percious: ^^ that covers what tools people use
19:18	percious	<-- kind of a vi guy
19:18	percious	thanks nDuff
19:19	Khaoz	well, i'm a emacs fan too, but vim+vimclojure seems a good choice
19:19	nDuff	percious: I use vim for everything but Java or Clojure -- for Clojure in particular, paredit mode in Emacs is life-changing.
19:19	Khaoz	this ^
19:20	percious	Python has a really nice IDE called wing which has built-in documentation, autocomplete tools and "go to definition" functionality
19:20	Khaoz	i'm still get used with paredit but it's really good
19:20	percious	it will even dive into a zipped package to find the source for you
19:20	percious	clojure have anything like that?
19:20	nDuff	percious: Look at the Emacs Live video
19:21	nDuff	percious: ...it goes way, waaay beyond what you can do with Wing+Python.
19:21	Khaoz	percious: you can try netbeans or eclipse
19:21	nDuff	percious: http://vimeo.com/22798433
19:21	percious	previously I have been underwhelmed with eclipse.
19:22	percious	what's the sand-boxing story for closure?
19:22	percious	i see lein
19:22	percious	does lein set up a sandboxed environment?
19:23	nDuff	Sandboxing from a security perspective? There are a few tools for that
19:23	cark	there are a couple libraries for sandboxing, lein isn't one of them
19:23	percious	no, from a packaging/versioning perspective
19:23	cark	lein is a builld tool
19:23	nDuff	...it's not something lein does by default, or do you mean the virtualenv style of sandboxing?
19:23	nDuff	Yes, your library selections are isolated between projects
19:23	nDuff	even though they're all cached in a ~/.m2 repository, only the ones defined in your project.clj are active
19:25	percious	awesome vimeo video
19:25	percious	thanks for sharing
19:26	percious	what's closure's story for wrapping c libraries?
19:26	percious	like python's ctypes if you are familiar
19:26	nDuff	Same as Java's == awful
19:26	nDuff	...well, not as awful as it used to be
19:26	nDuff	but it sure isn't ctypes
19:26	percious	how about ORM
19:27	percious	<-- lover of sqlalchemy
19:27	nDuff	Heh; SA is indeed great.
19:27	amalloy	percious: a lot of the clojure community subscribes to ideas like https://twitter.com/psnively/statuses/245972474926350337
19:27	percious	http://percious.com/blog/archives/34 ;-)
19:28	percious	amalloy: i find that to be unfortunate
19:28	percious	i find ORM's to be excessively useful, as long as they aren
19:28	percious	t based on Django ;-)
19:28	amalloy	you can find ORMs in clojure, but they have all the problems that other ORMs have
19:28	casion	why would you want ORMs in clojure?
19:28	casion	that seems… very strange
19:29	casion	like asking if C has orm
19:29	percious	well, if'n I'ma work for a web company, and clojure is what they have chosen, I probably should understand the story there
19:30	percious	<-- is a job seeker
19:30	technomancy	percious: korma is the closest thing to an ORM you're likely to see with Clojure
19:30	nDuff	Ugh.
19:30	percious	btw, i really appreciate you guys fielding my total newb questions
19:30	percious	yeah, i saw korma
19:31	technomancy	it still has some issues
19:31	percious	seems pretty primative
19:31	percious	nDuff: OSS?
19:31	technomancy	I don't think it's the right abstraction, but I'm also pretty sure it's better than doing it raw
19:31	grim_radical	it doesn't help that it's kind of abandoned
19:31	nDuff	percious: Nope -- just enough functionality for my immediate needs and no more, so it wouldn't be worth releasing.
19:31	percious	i like SA because it abstracts the table layer, and also provides an object layer
19:32	percious	nDuff: you'd be surprised what people consider worthy of release ;-)
19:32	cark	we're not too much into objetc around here
19:32	percious	doesn't java have a DB abstraction lib?
19:32	cark	objects*
19:32	percious	yeah, i hear you about objects
19:32	nDuff	percious: Anyhow, Clojure makes it so darned easy to build minilanguages that building "just enough ORM" is really, _really_ simple.
19:33	percious	i hear you about the mini languages, I did have 2 years of lisp, writing an NLP
19:33	percious	and I got paid for it... gasp.
19:33	nDuff	percious: ...that said, the leading datastore for Clojure in terms of having advanced, interesting features is based on Datalog, not SQL
19:33	percious	thank god someone fixed string manipulation in LISP, that's all I can say
19:34	nDuff	percious: ...sadly, it's commercially licensed, or else there'd be a lot more uptake.
19:34	cark	can't be using all caps lisp that'll get the CL people angry
19:34	percious	<-- old clisp user
19:34	percious	bruno haible was my hero i guess...
19:35	percious	never did try common lisp
19:35	cark	nDuff: at least we got reducers out of it
19:35	technomancy	percious: clisp predates CL?
19:35	cark	clips is a common lisp
19:35	percious	you know, i am not sure
19:35	percious	both were pretty active 10 years ago.
19:35	percious	my supoervisor chose clisp, the rest is history
19:36	percious	interestingly, i got my AI professor to use it instead of scheme
19:36	percious	(for his class)
19:36	mindbender1	We are entering the space age -- Rich Hickey
19:37	percious	anyone else bothered by the fact that the clojure interpreter takes quite a bit of time to start up?
19:37	cark	clojure is not an interpreter
19:37	nDuff	percious: It's Java.
19:37	technomancy	startup time sucks
19:37	nDuff	(and indeed, it's _not_ an interpreter -- anything you enter at the REPL is actually compiled to Java bytecode before being run)
19:37	percious	jms that I am not the only one ;-)
19:37	percious	yeah yeah, sorry for using "python" terminology.
19:37	Sgeo	So, as I was asking, any Clojure libraries for exact reals?
19:37	percious	;-)
19:38	cark	exact reals ? lique square root fo 2 ?
19:38	aperiodic	isn't that impossible with only a finite amount of memory?
19:38	cark	like*
19:38	Sgeo	Well, when outputting a result, you could specify a precision
19:38	Sgeo	But not before then
19:39	Sgeo	Conceptually, they're as possible as "infinite lists"
19:39	Sgeo	(Or, I guess, infinite length lazy seqs in Clojre)
19:39	cark	i don't think there is one, that would have been advertised a lot
19:39	nDuff	percious: ...there are some tools that will keep a running interpreter in the background and let you connect to it over a socket, to get the effect of faster "startup"...
19:40	nDuff	percious: ...in terms of interaction with C libraries, by the way, see https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-jna
19:40	technomancy	percious: Clojure is only suitable for a (large) subset of places the JVM is suitable
19:40	technomancy	you couldn't use it to write git
19:40	percious	nDuff: seems like that would lead to a glutton of globals... leading to undesired execution.
19:40	cark	technomancy: how so ?
19:40	nDuff	percious: Only if you're reusing the same namespaces.
19:40	amalloy	technomancy: didn't someone do that already? for java, that is, not clojure
19:41	percious	anyone use clojure-jna?
19:41	technomancy	amalloy: there's an implementation of git, but it's not usable from the command-line.
19:41	casion	percious: yes
19:41	technomancy	cark: startup time, memory usage, and general sucking at being unix
19:41	percious	cool, how do you like it?
19:42	cark	technomancy: well that's java ... i'm interested in those places where java is good but clojure isn't
19:42	casion	percious: it's an excellent learning tool… easier to use JNA directly it seems
19:42	technomancy	cark: oh sure. Android is the only one that comes to mind.
19:42	casion	not by fault of the library itself
19:42	cark	technomancy: ahyes indeed
19:42	nDuff	percious: ...by the way, there _are_ non-Java-based Clojure-derived languages
19:42	nDuff	percious: ...most of them implementing about the same subset as ClojureScript...
19:42	percious	yeah, makes sense
19:42	casion	there's clojure for almost everything now
19:42	nDuff	percious: ...and generally doing a lot better in terms of startup time and such, but lacking the same concurrency primitives and such.
19:42	percious	i talked to one of the pypy guys, he said the clojure implementation there is kind of a joke.
19:43	percious	my jython friend likes clojure tho
19:43	cark	nDuff: i hear clojure.net and clojure/python are not on the same track as clojure script
19:43	percious	he's a java guy of course :)
19:43	cemerick	Easy thing to say when the project is 6 months old.
19:43	cemerick	pypy has been on for what, 6 years?
19:43	nDuff	cark: ...yes, the CLR one is definitely a very different (and mature) thing
19:43	percious	ha ha, well maciej is never known to be diplomatic ;-)
19:44	technomancy	the former head of the jython project attends the seattle clojure group
19:44	nDuff	cark: ...there's a reason I said "most" and "generally"
19:44	technomancy	he's pretty skeptical of clojure-py too
19:44	cark	nDuff: well what does it leave besides clojurescript ?
19:44	cark	nDuff: there was one with lua i thinkk
19:44	cark	and that's it
19:44	casion	there's lua, objc (2), haskell, C
19:44	cark	oh ok =P
19:44	cemerick	scheme
19:45	casion	someone was screwing with some ocaml backend…
19:45	cark	mhh an haskell one might be cool =)
19:45	percious	so, the lisp syntax and the concurrency model seem to be the big attractants to clojure.
19:45	technomancy	come for the macros, stay for the referential transparency
19:45	cark	percious: it's best known for that, but the real gold is in the persistent data structures
19:45	casion	percious: I started with clojure for the jvm personally, stayed for the functional-ness of it
19:46	percious	ml runs on java too tho...
19:46	technomancy	yeti?
19:46	nDuff	percious: ...having control over where your program keeps its state is important for much more than just concurrency.
19:46	cark	funny thing is that persistent data structures were only a mean to achieve good concurrency
19:46	percious	nDuff: so you find having to manage scope yourself to be a benefit?
19:47	nDuff	percious: Huh?
19:47	mindbender1	imperative=place oriented programming
19:47	percious	i once found a scoping error in cpython...
19:47	casion	there's lots of things that run on the jvm… very few of them have enough material that makes them worth learning
19:48	nDuff	percious: ...it's not about the scoping rules as such, it's about mutating your data (and the places state hangs off of) being very explicit. refs/atoms/agents/&c.
19:49	nDuff	percious: ...too easy in the OO world to get into a case where your state is scattered across a huge number of objects, and you don't know what the state of the whole system is at a time.
19:50	percious	nDuff: yes, I have experienced this in the past, especially a problem with JS guis.
19:50	casion	oop is the devil
19:50	percious	python seems to have constructs to help reduce this problem.
19:50	mindbender1	program more with values
19:51	percious	usually I solve the state problem by creating a custom state object and passing it through the process.
19:51	Hodapp	OOP has value, but it sure doesn't deserve all that its proponents try to credit it with.
19:51	percious	i did this for the turbogears dispatch mechanism
19:52	mindbender1	new information requires new space
19:53	nDuff	percious: nod. That's part of where I've found ClojureScript to be handy -- bringing the whole immutible-data + atoms-with-watchers model to JavaScript.
19:53	percious	i am not a huge fan of ordered arguments as apposed to named arguments
19:53	nDuff	shrug. You can use destructuring to get named arguments when you want them, within some limitations
19:53	nDuff	there are certainly cases where that approach isn't appropriate, though
19:54	nDuff	one thing to keep in mind is that Clojure is playing within the boundaries of what the JVM can do efficiently
19:54	Hodapp	I am writing something in Clojure now that I intended to target Processing or OpenGL for some simple 2D, and ClojureScript (which I noticed later) had some intrigue for letting me easily target this same code to Javascript Canvas
19:54	nDuff	it's intended to be practical, along those lines, and argument-passing in Java is generally positional by nature
19:56	casion	I never really understood the need for named arguments
19:56	casion	and when using objc, it just annoys the shit out of me
19:57	Hodapp	I've never really messed with ObjC, but I've gotten the idea that it does OO a lot closer to what Alan Kay meant when he coined the term.
20:02	Sgeo	Hodapp, try Smalltalk for OO?
20:03	Sgeo	I like named arguments, but think that names arguments shouldn't be positional, the way they are in Smalltalk
20:03	Hodapp	Sgeo: I am sure Smalltalk is rather close, being a creation of Kay; what I'm talking about is ObjC compared with, say, Java or C++.
20:03	casion	objc is heavily influenced by smalltalk
20:05	casion	big emphasis on heavily
20:11	luxbock	a complete newbie trying to set-up Emacs with Clojure here
20:12	luxbock	how can I tell if I successfully managed to install swank-clojure with lein?
20:12	casion	have you just tried to clojure-jack-in?
20:12	luxbock	yeah I did, but Emacs doesn't find the command
20:13	casion	do you have clojure-mode installed?
20:13	luxbock	it might be because I tried installing swank through Emacs first
20:13	luxbock	yeah I do
20:13	nDuff	luxbock: ...personally, I use Emacs Live -- bundles all the various goodness in a single installation.
20:14	casion	installing swank first… I've heard that can cause some issues
20:14	luxbock	can I run Emacs Live on windows?
20:14	Hodapp	nDuff: what sort of goodness?
20:15	luxbock	casion, can I just delete the swank-clojure+1.1.0 from my .emacs.d/elpa/ folder, and then try lein'ing it again?
20:16	casion	technomancy: ping
20:16	casion	luxbock: maybe technomancy can help you better :)
20:17	casion	wouldnt be surprised if he just suggested using nrepl.el though
20:18	nDuff	Hodapp: Easier to point at the video; see http://vimeo.com/22798433
20:19	casion	nDuff: you use this for not-overtone?
20:19	nDuff	casion: absolutely.
20:21	nDuff	luxbock: No idea -- I personally use it on Linux, and its creator uses it on MacOS.
20:21	casion	well, I'm going to play with this. it seems to be setup like my .emacs except a bit better
20:46	luxbock	On Emacs 23 you will need to get package.el yourself or install manually by placing nrepl.el on your load-path and requireing it.
20:46	luxbock	where do I put package.el and how do I "install" it?
20:57	jamesmacaulay	Newbie question: I'm trying to play around with clojure.data/diff, and I expected to be able to fire up a standalone lein repl and do (use 'clojure.data)...but that gives me a java.io.FileNotFoundException that it couldn't be found in the classpath. What am I doing wrong? Do I need to install clojure.data from somewhere?
20:57	gfredericks	yep
20:57	gfredericks	well wait
20:58	gfredericks	yes
20:58	gfredericks	it'll go in your lein dependencies
20:58	Raynes	You're so fickle, gfredericks.
20:58	nDuff	Hmm? Looks like it's in core to me
20:58	nDuff	jamesmacaulay: Which version of Clojure?
20:59	gfredericks	nDuff: it's not in my 1.4
20:59	Raynes	&(require 'clojure.data)
20:59	lazybot	⇒ nil
20:59	Raynes	&(clojure-version)
20:59	lazybot	⇒ "1.4.0"
20:59	gfredericks	oh whoops
20:59	Raynes	&(doc clojure.data/diff)
20:59	lazybot	⇒ "([a b]); Recursively compares a and b, returning a tuple of [things-only-in-a things-only-in-b things-in-both]. Comparison rules: * For equal a and b, return [nil nil a]. * Maps are subdiffed where keys match and values differ. * Sets are never subdiffed. * All... https://www.refheap.com/paste/5088
20:59	gfredericks	I interpreted clojure.data/diff to be a lib name
20:59	gfredericks	and then interpolated the ns name to be clojure.data.diff
21:00	Raynes	&(clojure.data/diff [1 2] [2 1])
21:00	lazybot	⇒ [[1 2] [2 1] nil]
21:00	gfredericks	and kept down that rabit trail, and then explained myself while you guys proved me wrong
21:00	jamesmacaulay	oh jeez, a standalone lein repl gives me 1.2.1, I had no idea
21:00	Raynes	Get lein 2.
21:02	jamesmacaulay	lein upgrade only gives me 1.7.1, how do I get 2?
21:02	gfredericks	gotta download it explicitly
21:02	jamesmacaulay	okay thanks
21:02	Raynes	The king of the vague.
21:02	Raynes	One moment.
21:02	gfredericks	Raynes: the only important thing is that I get my answer out first
21:02	Raynes	jamesmacaulay: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen#installation
21:03	Raynes	jamesmacaulay: This is instructions for getting lein2. You can either replace your current installation (which is fine, the 'preview' prefix is meaningless at this point the final release is coming out soon and everybody has switched already) or add it alongside your existing one.
21:03	Raynes	gfredericks: That's true.
21:03	Raynes	3
21:03	Raynes	<3
21:04	jamesmacaulay	thanks very much!
21:04	Raynes	suffix*
21:04	Raynes	Surprised amalloy didn't call me out on that one. He must be playing something.
21:04	stankley	jamesmacaulay: One thing to look out for, I think it broke slime-jack-in for me, and now I've switched over to nrepl
21:05	Raynes	I hope it breaks it for everyone so as to force them to switch to nrepl. :D
21:05	Raynes	Everybody should hate me as a maintainer.
21:05	Raynes	I break things whenever possible.
21:05	cark	well lein2 comes with a lot of pains
21:05	stankley	Yeah, it's a weird way to find out, but the nrepl is sweet
21:05	Raynes	cark: Like?
21:05	cark	like forcing nrepl
21:06	Raynes	I don't think it actually forces nrepl.
21:06	stankley	It's a Good Thing
21:06	cark	right now nrepl is annoying me =P
21:06	Raynes	I know people using lein2 with slime.
21:06	akhudek_	I've had a few "out of heap space" errors using lein2
21:06	amalloy	Raynes: just call everything an affix, so you don't have to remember which is which
21:06	akhudek_	but they seem to have gone away after a few recompile attempts
21:06	akhudek_	bizarre
21:06	stankley	cark: Just takes a second to relearn key binds
21:06	Raynes	Yeah, but nrepl.el is new enough that some obscure bugs still pop up once in a while so I understand.
21:07	Raynes	It also isn't as polished around the edges as SLIME at this point.
21:07	Raynes	It makes up for it by being extremely hackable and having real releases.
21:07	cark	thing is i would like to continue working at my stuff rather than messing again with emacs configuration, adjusting old projects and all that kind of jazz
21:07	Raynes	If the 20 seconds it takes to set nrepl.el up is too much, you don't actually have to switch.
21:07	Raynes	shrug
21:08	Raynes	There isn't really any adjusting to do to old projects for nrepl.el.
21:08	xeqi_	and being able to run a cljs repl
21:08	cark	20 seconds to install it, 1 hour to have autocomplete about right, countless restarts
21:08	cark	and days to have projects updated
21:09	Raynes	I'm not convinced your experience was the same for everyone.
21:09	Raynes	What does projects have to do with nrepl.el?
21:09	cark	i understand the worlds has to move on, but it's annoying nevertheless
21:09	Raynes	:\
21:09	Raynes	Is there something you had to do to make projects work with nrepl?
21:09	Raynes	Or just lein2?
21:09	cark	well it depends on the project =)
21:09	Raynes	The breaking changes in lein2, while annoying, were very worthwhile and will certainly make everyone happier in the long run.
21:10	cark	i have some that are as old as clojure
21:10	Raynes	I understand where you're coming from though.
21:10	cark	i have this one that has a project.clj, just to be able to run it with lein1, but predates it
21:11	cark	it's uysing compojure before ring existed
21:11	stankley	cark: Ah, the entropy of code
21:11	Raynes	I actually thought you were new around here.
21:11	cark	well it's working, and i'd rather keep it this way by not upgrading everything, but i still need to maintain it sometimes
21:12	cark	i gave you tips when you were new
21:12	stankley	Hah
21:12	cark	=)
21:12	cark	i'm an episodic irc user =)
21:13	Raynes	cark: o/
21:13	Raynes	:D
21:14	Raynes	You are a gentleman and a scholar.
21:14	cark	so yes entropy it is, projects all over the place, it's a balancing act to have all these versions of lein, clojure, libraries running together
21:14	stankley	cark: Do what I do, set up a Vagrant file for the projects
21:14	stankley	cark: Like it or not, a virtual machine for each project means things don't break
21:15	cark	mhh
21:15	cark	right, but they're big
21:15	stankley	Ugly but effective
21:15	cark	a vm is a lot to backup
21:16	cark	i thought of that, i still have an old delphi (3!) project that i have to maintain
21:16	no7hing	i'am really, really sorry if i ask this again, but why are agents passed to the defined error handler not in failed state?
21:16	stankley	True, but I try to write everything in Chef, so it's just code that builds the environment
21:17	cark	mhh what is chef ?
21:17	no7hing	similar to pallet
21:18	cark	stankley: so you mean that you run a script that builds your vm and "populates" it when you want to start working on some project ?
21:18	no7hing	automation for cloud paas
21:18	arrdem	I've heard it said that Noir is crap. What libs should I be looking to as I overhaul my website?
21:18	stankley	cark: A DSL to describe the configuration of your server. It's written in Ruby. And yes.
21:19	cark	mhh that looks interesting
21:19	cark	more hours working on infrestructure rather than code ..
21:20	cark	stankley: thanks for the tip, i'll investigate that
21:20	stankley	cark: Exactly. No free lunch... yadda yadda
21:20	stankley	NP
21:21	no7hing	haven't used it yet, but pallet seems like a clojurey alternative
21:21	no7hing	anyway, g'night
21:23	stankley	no7hing: True, that video presenting it is on my watch list.
21:24	xeqi	arrdem: noir is fine; alot of people use compojure
21:25	arrdem	xeqi: yeah I haven't had any real issues with it that aren't my fault... I've just seen it take some heat here and figured I'd ask
21:28	Raynes	arrdem: Noir is just a more stateful and magic way to get web development done. Some people don't like that. Lately I tend to be one of them. Lots of people use noir and it is certainly a capable web framework. Use whatever you feel like using.
21:29	Raynes	I've certainly said a few thing about noir, but I've never called it 'crap'.
21:29	Raynes	I'm a noir contributor.
21:29	Raynes	Mostly lib-noir, but noir nonetheless.
21:29	Raynes	And Chris is a good friend of mine.
21:31	Raynes	arrdem: For my opinionated suggestion, check out compojure and lib-noir (which is a lib separate from noir with some noir goodies). It's currently my favorite one two punch for web dev.
21:31	Raynes	But if you're already using noir for something and you like it, no reason to stop.
21:32	arrdem	Raynes: I'm basically doing a total site rebuild, but I have been very impressed with Noir thus far. Thanks for the advice.
21:33	arrdem	,(doseq [x ["Raynes" "xeqi" "nDuff"]] (println "(inc" x ")"))
21:33	clojurebot	(inc Raynes )
21:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:33	clojurebot	(inc xeqi )
21:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:33	clojurebot	(inc nDuff )
21:33	lazybot	⇒ 1
21:33	Raynes	The only real point where you'll probably run into Noir issues if for complex middleware setups. Adding middleware in Noir is all mutable and covered up so it is very hard to order things the way you want and wrap specific routes and such.
21:33	Raynes	If you don't have those problems then you should be fine.
21:34	arrdem	Raynes: yeah I think I've heard that here before. Don't expect it do be an issue as this is going to be personal and entirely from scratch.
21:36	akhudek	arrdem: also take a look at https://github.com/ohpauleez/shoreleave
21:36	akhudek	I haven't tried it, but it looks interesting
22:07	Sgeo	I'm finally going to test my patch to algo.monads tonight
22:07	Sgeo	And maybe make m-lift-fn act more like m-lift
22:14	cark	Sgeo: i thought about it
22:14	Sgeo	What's "it"?
22:14	cark	Sgeo: and didn't really test it, but maybe m-lift-fn is the way it is for efficiency reasons ?
22:15	cark	your patch invovles apply doesn't it ?
22:15	Sgeo	m-lift-fn is the function I wrote to replace m-lift
22:15	cark	right
22:16	Sgeo	Well... maybe. But, there is the fact that, since there's no apply in Haskell, there's no m-lift-fn, and a general lift like that would need a macro in Haskell. So, if algo.monads author was studiously copying from Haskell...
22:16	Hodapp	blarg, is it impossible when I open a :ClojureRepl in vim to use Ctrl-w,c, Ctrl-w,v, :bn to switch it from a horizontal to a vertical window?
22:17	cark	Sgeo: let me go back and see the code
22:17	Sgeo	(I didn't even test m-lift-fn yet, so I could have merely gotten it wrong)
22:17	cark	tho i don't think the author blindly copied haskell
22:17	Hodapp	why... is this not a valid thing to do?
22:19	Hodapp	am I just using a really half-assed development environment or am I missing something obvious here?
22:20	cark	Sgeo: mhh i think it's very efficient as it is, i would advise you to make some micro-benchmarks with both your and the library versions
22:21	cark	Sgeo: so why do you want to change it ?
22:21	cark	Sgeo: you already said but i forgot
22:21	casion	Hodapp: the former
22:22	cark	casion: =)
22:22	Sgeo	cark, to replace a macro that can be a function with a function. The function is also more flexible, because it doesn't need to be told how many arguements the lifted function takes
22:22	Hodapp	casion: siiiiigh. Folks in here told me that lein-tarsier & vim worked really well.
22:23	cark	Sgeo: right, but isn't there m-seq just for this kind of problem ?
22:23	casion	I keep trying it, and everytime I do I end up hitting some wall
22:23	Hodapp	casion: lein-tarsier, nailgun, vimclojure et al.?
22:24	casion	Hodapp: I actually never have got nailgun working correct :\|
22:24	Hodapp	casion: I think I have nailgun working okay but I'm finding the vim plugin really clunky
22:25	cark	Sgeo: some combination of apply, f-map and m-seq i guess
22:25	Sgeo	cark, and that's exactly what m-lift-fn does
22:25	Sgeo	(Well, I'm thinking of making it curried by default)
22:26	cark	Sgeo: allright then, maybe add it to the library, but i feel like there should still be a way to have the "fast" path
22:27	cark	and while you're at it, we need eval-state and run-state functions =)
22:28	cark	(defn eval-state [computation state] (get (computation state) 0))
22:28	cark	and (defn run-state [computation state] (get (computation state) 1))
22:29	cark	hum no
22:29	cark	euh yes
22:29	Sgeo	My question about the library is why it uses so many macros instead of, maybe, having m-bind and m-result be dynamically bound
22:29	cark	when you look at it
22:29	Sgeo	Although I guess doing that may cause some issues with returning functions
22:30	cark	it's because they're trying to call functions directly, instead of passing a monad "object" around
22:30	cark	if you look at defmonadfn
22:31	cark	you'll see that it changes a function from this (defn foo [bar] to
22:31	cark	(defn [m-bind m-return .... bar] ...
22:31	cark	so when you do (with-monad state ....
22:32	cark	it binds the m-bin m-result etc to local scope
22:32	cark	then pass it around under the hood
22:32	cark	i don't see how one can do it any faster
22:33	Sgeo	"speed" isn't my concern here. My concern is generality
22:33	cark	that's why domonad has a version where you do not specify the monad it uses
22:34	cark	well, i think the goal is to be general, to allow "return value polymorphism"
22:34	cark	kinda
22:34	Sgeo	It would be nice if this code were at least not tied to monads
22:34	Sgeo	The mechanism for this could be more general, I think
22:34	cark	well it is necessary if you don't want to pass the monad around
22:34	Sgeo	But I don't like relying on defmacrofn
22:35	cark	it allows the algo.monad user to write code which is not bound to a specific monad
22:35	Sgeo	But, if I use dynamically-scoped variables, call them m-bind and m-result, a similar result could also be done. with-monad would merely be a binding form. The big problem is making closures that capture the monad that is currently in use
22:35	cark	say you're writing a parser, with statet and maybe
22:36	cark	then you suddenly think it would be easier to add a writer monad in there
22:36	cark	the way it is right now, you only need to pass the right monad from your top level and it just works
22:37	cark	right, i only see a problem with the cost of indirection when calling a var
22:38	cark	not quite sur if there is some other reason
22:38	cark	sure*
22:38	cark	tho the cost must be quite high since rhickey changed the default to "not dynamic"
22:39	Sgeo	The cost of dynamics is, I think, generally an issue with correct use and comprehension
22:39	cark	that change was specifically about performances
22:40	Sgeo	Oh
22:40	cark	dynamics are good, not to be abused, just like macros
22:41	Sgeo	I do think though, that even if the current solution is good, it could be generalizable to be usable for more than just monads, and the monad use case just a specialization of such
22:42	cark	if i had done it, defmacrofn would be passing a monad deftyped instance, with a protocol implementation for monad and for monad-plus
22:42	cark	and m-zero
22:43	cark	i want to do something with arrows, but i'm not quite sure how to start with it
22:44	cark	would be done just like the monad library, but yes it's cumberome
22:44	cark	cumbersome*
22:44	Sgeo	The Functor and Applicative parts also need to be factored out to be separate.
22:45	Sgeo	Not all functors are applicatives, not all applicatives are monads, etc.
22:45	cark	i've been banging my head on that
22:45	cark	but it feels like you need a real type system
22:46	Sgeo	Well, algo.monad fakes some of it, those concepts could be reused
22:46	Sgeo	Separable parts separated
22:46	Sgeo	etc
22:46	cark	did you check maybe in algo.monad
22:46	cark	i feel like it's half-asses
22:46	cark	half-assed
22:47	cark	what if i want to return Just nil ?
22:47	Sgeo	jimduey's Procol monads do a correct Maybe, I think
22:47	Sgeo	*protocol monads
22:47	cark	mhh i need to check that out
22:49	cark	nope not good, also taking nil as Nothing
22:49	Sgeo	nil as nothing isn't the problem, the problem is what does it do for just
22:50	cark	right, that's my problem, how do you define : data List : Cons a List \| Nil
22:51	cark	is it even possible to have a deftype without fields ?
22:51	cark	mhh
22:52	cark	yes it is
22:54	Sgeo	I do think that in both monad libraries, maybe is shortchanged
22:54	Sgeo	It should really be in a library of its own
22:54	Sgeo	With various utility functions and macros
22:54	cark	every monad should be =)
22:55	Sgeo	I saw an explanation by jimduey saying that "monad transformers are functions".
22:55	Sgeo	It hurt my soul.
22:55	Sgeo	Although, in the Clojure monad libraries, I guess they are
22:56	cark	well there are haskell implementations that do not use typeclasses at all
22:57	cark	anyways, going back to work !
23:13	Sgeo	Ok, I'm going to need an IDE that won't make me want to shoot myself
23:13	Sgeo	In the meantime, I can live with lein repl and Notepad++ I think
23:14	Sgeo	Wait, I'm not going to be able to reload changes in files if I use lein repl, can I?
23:14	clojurebot	the repl is holding onto the head of sequences when printing them.
23:14	Sgeo	o.O what clojurebot just said kind of sucks
23:20	cark	c-c c-k to compile yoru file
23:33	Sgeo	Is NetBeans+Enclojure lighter-weight than Eclipse+Iforgetwhatit'scalled?
23:34	mindbender1	(set! me {}) throws IllegalStateException where (def ^:private ^:dynamic me nil)
23:35	Sgeo	,(do (def ^:dynamic me nil) (set! me {}))
23:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
23:35	mindbender1	and cemerick does exactly that in piggieback
23:35	Sgeo	,(do (def ^:dynamic me nil))
23:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
23:35	Sgeo	&(do (def ^:dynamic me nil) (set! me {}))
23:35	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! set! is bad!
23:37	Sgeo	I don't think algo.monads is even a Clojure project
23:37	Sgeo	erm, Leiningen project
23:42	mindbender1	,(doc set!)
23:42	clojurebot	Pardon?
23:42	mindbender1	(doc set!)
23:42	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
23:42	mindbender1	&(doc set!)
23:42	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! set! is bad!
23:49	Sgeo	Ok, so this library isn't Leiningen-y
23:49	Sgeo	How do I make it leiningen-y?
23:54	tomoj	consider r/map's rfn: https://gist.github.com/b1e769f9e03e3e132768
23:57	tomoj	if we patch reducer/folder so that they return an IKVReduce, we can do this https://gist.github.com/469d9f88d866446faf05
23:58	tomoj	but note that the reducef is only getting called with 2 args
23:58	tomoj	(str in this case)