#clojure – 2012-09-05

2012-09-05

00:00	casion	wmealing_: yes
00:00	casion	I couldn't get it running when I tried 2 months ago or so
00:00	casion	I'll give it a go again soonish
00:00	casion	I'm mostly curious if I can get it running on avr
00:00	wmealing_	AVR, as in microcontroller ?
00:00	casion	yes
00:00	mpan	sounds cool
00:01	technomancy	mrevil: it's possible to create a lazy seq that releases things when it's consumed, it just opens a huge can of worms
00:01	wmealing_	casion: what is your chipset ?
00:01	technomancy	the whole point of lazy seqs is you don't have to think about whether and when it's consumed
00:01	mpan	technomancy: you mean by artificially constructing functions yourself?
00:01	technomancy	so if you have a seq that must be consumed, it kind of defeats the purpose
00:02	casion	wmealing_: brb
00:02	technomancy	mpan: you can use lazy-seq
00:02	wmealing_	ok
00:02	mrevil	in this instance it will be always be consumed in full
00:02	technomancy	there are other ways too
00:02	technomancy	anyway, it's possible but problematic
00:02	mrevil	can you give me a google seed?
00:04	dansalmo	Is there an inverse of the read-string fn such as: (fn? (read-string "(xz (yz))")) => "(xz (yz))"
00:04	amalloy	$findfn '(xz (yz)) "(xz (yz))"
00:04	lazybot	Key must be integer
00:04	amalloy	what the hell, lazybot?
00:05	amalloy	oh, i bet that doesn't handle strings well. anyway, you want pr-str, dansalmo
00:05	mrevil	i understand it's problematic, but the goal is to avoid refactoring a bunch of code tonight. the thing is I don't even want the lock, the thing has single concurrency guarantees the API is forcing me to obtain a lock
00:06	mrevil	technomancy: pointer to my can of worms?
00:07	dansalmo	:amalloy thanks, I never would have thought to look for a print fn.
00:08	dnolen	jparishy: have you seen http://github.com/jasonjckn/llvm-clojure-bindings
00:10	technomancy	mrevil: you can see how read-lines was implemented in the old clojure.contrib duck-streams library
00:10	technomancy	provided it's a temporary hack of course =)
00:11	technomancy	though considering your nick I'm not sure I can trust you!
00:11	mrevil	:)
00:11	mrevil	thanks
00:12	Sgeo	If I take the time to understand Ring, will I better understand the purposes of things such as Rack and WSGI?
00:13	arohner	Sgeo: yes
00:14	Sgeo	{"Content-Type" "text/plain"} that confused me for a second until I realized that that is in fact a map
00:14	Sgeo	I'm so used to {:somekey someval}
00:14	Sgeo	(I haven't actually done much Clojure, just reading about Clojure)
00:20	dansalmo	:amalloy I added some examples to clojuredocs
00:20	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
00:21	Sgeo	Hmm
00:21	Sgeo	I once wanted to add lenses to Clojure
00:22	Sgeo	Did I decide it's not worth it, or did I just lose interest in Clojure too soon?
00:22	Sgeo	Or maybe someone else did it
00:22	amalloy	okay, i guess, but why? that exact example is already there, dansalmo
00:22	casion	wmealing_: I use the atmega2560, uc3 and atmega32u4
00:23	casion	wmealing_: and 328 for some stuff when I'm fooling with arduino
00:23	wmealing_	casion: if you get it working well enough to be useful, i'd be interested
00:23	wmealing_	in reading about it
00:24	casion	that's essentially my day job, avr development and fabrication
00:25	casion	essentially was a very stupid word to insert there haha
00:29	wmealing_	casion: i have two arduinos myself
00:29	wmealing_	casion: one of them is hooked up to the serial port on a security system that apparently, can't be interfaced externally.
00:29	wmealing_	has a bluetooth connection to the home server
00:29	wmealing_	the other controls garage/frontdoors over POE.
00:30	casion	neat
00:31	casion	right now we're developing a rail and bridge for macro photography, along with an extension bridge-arm for time lapse panoramas
00:31	dansalmo	:amalloy when I looked, there was an example showing (read-string ... (pr-str ...)) but not the other way around.
00:32	dansalmo	:amalloy and there was no mention of them being like inverse functions of one another
00:34	dansalmo	:amalloy and I could have sworn there was no mention of pr-str in the "see also" section, but there is now
00:34	dansalmo	thanks greatly for the help.
00:35	Sgeo	Actually, I guess that's not really what I want. What I want is to bring lenses to Clojure and make them useful
00:45	l1x	hey ho
00:45	l1x	dnolen: do you remember we talked about the replace Nth character in a string story?
00:45	dnolen	l1x: yep
00:46	l1x	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/3630609
00:48	dnolen	l1x: nice
00:49	l1x	i am not sure if it is correct yet, need to test is extensively
00:50	duck1123	Does anyone happen to have any idea why suddenly the cljs compiler would refuse to include the goog.net.Websocket package?
00:50	duck1123	I had it working before, but now it can't find it
00:50	dnolen	duck1123: does it still exist? did it get renamed
00:51	dnolen	duck1123: GClosure seems to change relatively quickly.
00:51	duck1123	by all indications, it's still there
00:52	duck1123	for a while, it wasn't in the included goog package, but I was building against the head
00:52	dnolen	duck1123: are you using CLJS head? a release?
00:52	duck1123	I'm using head right now
00:53	duck1123	well, I'm using cljsbuild, I don't know if they conflict
00:53	dnolen	duck1123: shouldn't if you're using :checkouts
00:53	duck1123	it's been working fine until tonight, which is what gets me.
00:54	dnolen	duck1123: if you reproduce preferably w/ other goog libs that would be helpful.
00:54	duck1123	I'll see what I can do
00:54	dnolen	duck1123: whenever things get messed up I remove out, .repl, and any generated foo.js files.
00:55	akhudek	huh, for short sequences (~5 positions) conjing to a vector is noticeably faster.
00:55	akhudek	than conjing to a list
00:56	duck1123	cleaning everything out didn't do it
00:57	duck1123	Here's the file, if it helps http://renfer.name/assets/js/jiksnu.js
00:57	dnolen	duck1123: I see that CLJS uses 1376 closure.jar which doesn't have goog.net.WebSocket
01:02	akhudek	is there a non-lazy map?
01:02	akhudek	for performance?
01:04	duck1123	you can force a lazy seq with dorun (if you only want side effects) or doall (if you want the return) there's also doseq
01:05	duck1123	nvm
01:06	Sgeo	assoc-in isn't defined in a tail-recursive manner
01:06	dnolen	akhudek: reducers
01:06	Sgeo	Erm, ... I don't know how to phrase that in Clojure terms considering that even tail-recursive defined functions will blow the stack and should use recur to avoid that
01:06	Sgeo	But assoc-in is recursive and doesn't use recur
01:07	dnolen	Sgeo: let us know when you have some code where that's a problem for you.
01:07	Sgeo	What's wrong with just making assoc-in more robust?
01:07	Sgeo	Don't tell me it will cause some sort of bizarre efficiency concern?
01:08	akhudek	dnolen: I thought of trying those, but didn't find clojure.core.reducers in 1.4, do I need to pull 1.4+?
01:08	dnolen	Sgeo: there are problems and there are real problems. not much more to say about it.
01:08	dnolen	akhudek: reducers are 1.5 I think.
01:09	mpan	is there an equivalent of map that takes two input seqs?
01:10	mpan	woah, it's map
01:10	mpan	yay
01:10	akhudek	dnolen: ok, thanks, I'll try getting 1.5 going in a few days to experiment a bit.
01:11	uvtc	mpan: :)
01:11	mpan	I do feel silly though
01:11	mpan	since I was reading it earlier and missed it I suppose
01:14	dnolen	mpan: easy to miss and yes it's nice.
01:24	mpan	Is there an easy way to take a function and make it implement java.util.Comparator ?
01:24	l1x	hmm is there a way to kind of iterate over a set which contains vector instead of using for?
01:24	mpan	what do you want to do with the set? I'm currently using map, but I guess it depends what you want to do
01:27	mpan	,(map #(vector (+ 1 (first %))) #{[1] [2]})
01:27	clojurebot	([2] [3])
01:27	mpan	uh, that's one way I guess
01:28	mpan	that's a silly example, and it makes new vectors, but depending on what you wanted to do with your elems, map might do it
01:45	clj_newb_2342	anyone here got rtmp or rtmps to work with clojure?
02:13	mindbender1	why is it that if I do (find-ns 'foo) in a repl I get nil, but when (use 'foo) it pulls in the files
02:16	nbeloglazov	&(doc find-ns)
02:16	lazybot	⇒ "([sym]); Returns the namespace named by the symbol or nil if it doesn't exist."
02:16	xeqi	find-ns sees if it has already been declared; use will load the namespace from a file if it hasn't
02:17	mindbender1	xeqi: what do you mean by `already been declared`
02:19	mindbender1	xeqi: the ns has already been created in my instance
02:19	amalloy	&(doc comparator) ;; mpan
02:19	lazybot	⇒ "([pred]); Returns an implementation of java.util.Comparator based upon pred."
02:21	xeqi	added to https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Namespace.java#L25 from a previous use / require / ns / create-ns or whatever
02:22	mpan	thanks
02:30	mpan	I think I'm misnaming namespaces? the namespace name has a - and the filename has a corresponding _ but it errors trying to load it
02:53	michaelr525	hello
03:09	mpan	hello
03:12	clj_newb_234	in clojure, what is the way to read _untrusted_ data?
03:12	clj_newb_234	i.e. I want to read _untrusted_ data as a clojure data structure
03:15	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: i guess you could slurp it in, then attempt to parse it
03:15	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: untrusted clojure data structures ?
03:15	clj_newb_234	clojure data structures from a untrusted source
03:15	clj_newb_234	i.e. i'm writing a web app taht sends me clojure data structures
03:15	clj_newb_234	but I dont trust the web app
03:16	clj_newb_234	does this make sense, or am I an idiot?
03:16	clj_newb_234	(the two are not mutually exclusive)
03:16	wmealing_	yeah i get you
03:16	wmealing_	(ns testing.core
03:16	wmealing_	(:require [clojure.java.io :as io])
03:16	wmealing_	(:import [java.io PushbackReader]))
03:16	wmealing_	(def remote-data (with-open [r (io/reader "whatever.clj")]
03:16	wmealing_	(read (PushbackReader. r))))
03:17	wmealing_	but that doesn't mean it cant crash your app
03:17	xeqi	(doc read-string)
03:17	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
03:17	clj_newb_234	can anything bad happen from parsing json?
03:17	xeqi	just make sure to (binding [read-eval false] (read-string ...))
03:17	wmealing_	xeqi: thta was my next idea
03:17	wmealing_	something like this
03:17	wmealing_	http://hastebin.com/sipuvalefe.lisp
03:18	clj_newb_234	so all the pwoer of read, but without read time macros?
03:18	wmealing_	win
03:18	wmealing_	actually, i dont pretend to know if my idea is the best idea, or even sane
03:18	wmealing_	but its how i'm doing it right now
03:19	wmealing_	ah clj_newb_234: i found something for you
03:19	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: https://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox
03:19	wmealing_	there you go, a place to execute your untrusted code
03:20	clj_newb_234	no no, this is enough :-)
03:20	wmealing_	i imagine the guys who write the clojurebot
03:20	clj_newb_234	I don't need to excute the code
03:20	clj_newb_234	only to read it
03:20	wmealing_	have a good sandbox
03:20	wmealing_	ah
03:20	clj_newb_234	plus
03:20	clj_newb_234	I think you can still crash that system
03:20	clj_newb_234	with infinite thread creation
03:20	clj_newb_234	sinsce java deprecated thread.stop
03:20	wmealing_	"that" being sandbox ?
03:20	clj_newb_234	yeah
03:20	wmealing_	i wonder how the bot writer here does it
03:22	wmealing_	clojail replaced sanbox, apparently
03:22	wmealing_	https://github.com/flatland/clojail
03:23	wmealing_	one thing i was interested in, was erlang style hot code reloading
03:24	clj_newb_234	is read-line completely safe?
03:24	clj_newb_234	i.e. it just reads the line, but doesn't try to pase it?
03:24	clj_newb_234	oh, I have hot code reloading working
03:24	clj_newb_234	I can modify my webserver as it runs :-)
03:24	wmealing_	orheally
03:25	wmealing_	so you just save the file
03:25	wmealing_	and it picks up the changes as it runs ?
03:25	clj_newb_234	well
03:25	clj_newb_234	I have to type ctrl-ll
03:25	clj_newb_234	which does :w, :make
03:25	wmealing_	in emacs ?
03:25	clj_newb_234	and :make tells clojure to reload
03:25	clj_newb_234	it does depdentcy checking too
03:25	wmealing_	ok
03:25	wmealing_	ah, vim
03:25	wmealing_	right
03:25	clj_newb_234	and reloads all the modules that depends on the module just modified
03:25	wmealing_	and the session doesn't end ?
03:26	mpan	is there an equivalent to stepping through execution as one would with an imperative language? (currently in eclipse+ccw if that matters)
03:26	wmealing_	if your compile fails, what happens ?
03:26	clj_newb_234	no; my clojure webserver listens on port 11111
03:26	clj_newb_234	it listens for "reload commands"
03:26	clj_newb_234	err, code is injected via (require :reload module-name)
03:26	clj_newb_234	so when it files to compile, nothing bad happens
03:26	clj_newb_234	(so far, in my experience)
03:26	wmealing_	mpan: havn't done it in a while: http://georgejahad.com/clojure/swank-cdt.html
03:27	clj_newb_234	the hardest part ... was actually having to implement typological sort myself
03:27	wmealing_	but i used to do something like that
03:27	clj_newb_234	in order to do depency checking
03:27	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: ok
03:27	clj_newb_234	lol, had enough of my hot-relaoding system?
03:27	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: ill have a play, probably end up doing it wrong over and over
03:28	wmealing_	clj_newb_234: i'm a very lame repl user
03:28	wmealing_	lots of manual work
03:28	mpan	thank you!
03:28	wmealing_	mpan: there is other ways too. that wasnt the only one
03:29	mpan	I'm currently "debugging with print statements" essentially
03:31	clj_newb_234	hmm, in clojure, what is the right way to read _a line_ from a _socket_ ?
03:32	mpan	eek! I think I reversed the order of my compare
03:34	scottj	mpan: have you tried setting breakpoints and stepping in eclipse?
03:34	mpan	scottj: idk if I'm doing it wrong, but eclipse seems to ignore my breakpoints
03:36	mpan	oh wow, yep, I was sorting it by worst-candidates-first
05:03	clgv	hmmm I wonder why the standard way to construct a set namely (set c) does not use a transient set. that means if I anticipate that I have to construct large sets I have to use (into #{} c)
05:04	clgv	or is it to force this explicit decision to use `into` for larger sets?
05:15	amalloy	clgv: i think it's just an unimplemented feature in c.l.PersistentHashSet, since HashMap/create uses a transient and HashSet/create doesn't. perhaps sets didn't have transients at the time
05:15	amalloy	submit a patch to jira, i'd suggest
05:16	clgv	amalloy: no signed CA overhere ;)
05:18	clgv	maybe I have to do that when I got some spare time
05:22	nbeloglazov	$source clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
05:22	lazybot	Source not found.
05:22	nbeloglazov	$source set
05:22	lazybot	set is http://is.gd/NJA7Kg
05:51	no7hing	is there any smarter way than having a macro for parsing an int (e.g. userid) out of matched compojure routing parts? especially when the context is the userid and a bunch of handlers derive that?
06:01	Mandar	hello
06:01	Mandar	i have a very basic question: how do i convert this vector to a list?
06:01	Mandar	(list [1 2 3]) returns '([1 2 3])
06:01	Mandar	how can i get '(1 2 3)
06:03	ejackson	,(apply list [1 2 3])
06:03	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
06:04	Mandar	thank you!
06:04	ejackson	list wants each of elements of the list as a seperate argument
06:04	Mandar	i thought there might be a reverse to "vec"
06:05	Mandar	(list* [1 2 3]) seems to return '(1 2 3) too
06:06	iDesperadO	,(list* [1 2 3])
06:06	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
06:07	iDesperadO	,(class (list* [1 2 3]))
06:07	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
06:08	iDesperadO	,(vector 1 2 3 4)
06:08	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
06:08	iDesperadO	,(vec 1 [1 2 3])
06:08	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$vec>
06:08	iDesperadO	,(vec (range -5 5))
06:08	clojurebot	[-5 -4 -3 -2 -1 ...]
06:09	iDesperadO	,(vector (range -5 5))
06:09	clojurebot	[(-5 -4 -3 -2 -1 ...)]
06:09	Mandar	so (list* [1 2 3]) is not a list
06:10	Mandar	so the idiomatic way is ejackson's
06:10	Bronsa	,(doc list*)
06:10	clojurebot	"([args] [a args] [a b args] [a b c args] [a b c d & ...]); Creates a new list containing the items prepended to the rest, the last of which will be treated as a sequence."
06:11	iDesperadO	,(list? (list* [1 2 3]))
06:11	clojurebot	false
06:11	Mandar	thanks guys
06:11	iDesperadO	,(seq? (list* [1 2 3]))
06:11	clojurebot	true
06:12	clgv	Mandar: you should not try to convert a vector to a list.
06:13	clgv	most functions for list will call `seq` on it anyway
06:13	clgv	I mean "list = sequential data structure"
06:14	clgv	,(-> [] class ancestors)
06:14	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.Reversible clojure.lang.IPersistentStack java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Sequential clojure.lang.IMeta ...}
06:14	Mandar	so clojure.lang.Sequential is like an interface?
06:15	clgv	,(.isInterface clojure.lang.Sequential)
06:15	clojurebot	true
06:15	clgv	yes^^
06:15	Mandar	i didn't even know there were interfaces in a functional language :)
06:15	clgv	thats due to the JVM being the host of clojure ;)
06:16	ejackson	Mandar: yeah, Protocols are the googlable term.
06:16	Mandar	thank you very much guys
06:16	iDesperadO	I'm afraid .isInterface is a java interop...clojure support it practically
06:16	clgv	ejackson: only if he wants to implement something "interfacey" himself ;)
06:16	iDesperadO	so clojure is not an pure functional programming language:)
06:18	clgv	iDesperadO: I did only use it to check since I was not 100% sure
06:19	iDesperadO	clgv: I just want to say that clojure is not a pure functional programming language and clojure support this with practicality in mind
06:22	clgv	sometimes it would be really hand to tag functions as pure and to get an error if they use something that is not tagged pure
06:22	clgv	*handy
06:23	iDesperadO	use meta data?
06:25	TheBusby	is there a threading macro that supports nil punning?
06:25	clgv	iDesperadO: yeah, but you would have to write a defn derivate that also checks that metadata ^^
06:25	clgv	iDesperadO: well probably not more complicate than checking for transitive options
06:26	clgv	TheBusby: yes. clojure.core.incubator/-?> and -?>> - but it's an additional lib
06:27	TheBusby	clgv: excellent thank you! Google fails for the threading macros :(
06:27	clgv	TheBusby: I hope it will get into core since thats what that lib is for - but it didnt happen in 1.3 or 1.4
06:27	TheBusby	:(
06:29	iDesperadO	clgv: the question I asked yesterday here comes..I don't know about clojure.core.incubator. Now the only solution seems to google to read on the web. How I wish I can get some info on repl...
06:30	iDesperadO	,(doc clojure.core.incubator)
06:30	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.incubator>
06:30	iDesperadO	,(dir-fn clojure.core.incubator)
06:30	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.core.incubator, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
06:30	deadringer	been struggling with proguard, has anybody got it working with clojure?
06:30	iDesperadO	,(dir-fn 'clojure.core.incubator)
06:30	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: No namespace: clojure.core.incubator found>
06:31	clgv	iDesperadO: there is no such feature in clojure itself. I remember someone has written a lib for clojars.org but thats limited then as well
06:31	rasputnik	is this a good place to ask for help with 4clojure problems?
06:32	clgv	rasputnik: if you do not spoil the problem for others, yes
06:32	rasputnik	don't worry, my solution is throwing exceptions anyway :)
06:32	iDesperadO	clgv: and I'm afraid the clojurebot don't know about core.incubator either
06:32	tomoj	I assume it is acceptable to spoil the problem in a gist labelled as a spoiler?
06:33	clgv	iDesperadO: but the official maintained projects can be found here: https://github.com/clojure/ including core.incubator
06:33	iDesperadO	clgv: I know I know
06:34	clgv	,(use 'clojure.core.incubator)
06:34	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/core/incubator__init.class or clojure/core/incubator.clj on classpath: >
06:34	iDesperadO	clgv: :)
06:34	clgv	nope, he does not use it ^^
06:34	rasputnik	ok, here's my crappy attempt at reversing a sequence (4clojure #23 ) : https://gist.github.com/3634727
06:34	rasputnik	blows up with : ClassCastException clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn user/widdershins/flip--310 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:4)
06:35	rasputnik	it's probably very very obvious, only been doing Clojure for a week
06:35	clgv	rasputnik: for one, you shouldnt use `defn` afair the sandbox forbids def-ing anything
06:36	clgv	or did that work now on other problems?
06:36	clgv	I usually just use (fn [...] ...)
06:36	rasputnik	i'll golf it down to a #() once it works in the repl, this is just a more general WTF exploration thing
06:37	clgv	ah ok. cant you paste it in a file to get line number info on the exception?
06:37	rasputnik	clgv: yeah, that's not a bad idea. pretty sure its' the recursive call though. I read it as saying 'cons is not a function' which is what's confusing me
06:38	rasputnik	is there an easy way to get the repl to load the file rather than starting a new lein project?
06:38	clgv	rasputnik: oh you are trying that very complicated ^^
06:38	rasputnik	NVM, 'load-file'
06:38	clgv	indeed^^
06:40	clgv	rasputnik: my golf score on that problem is 7 ;)
06:40	rasputnik	hum, it's the (tocoll) on line 4 that's breaking apparently. confused now.
06:41	clgv	rasputnik: ah right. you have strange brackets there
06:42	rasputnik	clgv: is the letfn in the wrong place, maybe/
06:42	clgv	no. (tocoll) does not make any sense
06:42	clgv	you should just return the `tocoll` there
06:42	rasputnik	ah, skip the enclosing parens?
06:42	rasputnik	cool, i'll try that
06:43	clgv	yeah. it's no function call
06:43	clgv	rasputnik: in general you live risky by using `flip` for recursion instead of `recur`
06:43	rasputnik	aaah, that'll be it. removed those and now line 6 goes boom (because it has unnecessary () too, i think
06:44	rasputnik	clgv: yup, that's what i thought. need to tidy it up and then tweak things to get the recursive bit to a tail position
06:44	clgv	yeah, even in lisp there might be too many parens ;)
06:44	rasputnik	clgv: heresy!!
06:45	wmealing_	/join #lazybot
06:45	wmealing_	bha
06:45	rasputnik	yay, no more errors. returns the original seq mind, but still - progress :)
06:45	wmealing_	sorry about that
06:48	clgv	rasputnik: but I can tell you, you are overthinking this problem.
06:49	rasputnik	clgv: oh i'm sure i am :) have to complete it though to see the other solutions
06:49	wmealing_	amalloy_: my lazybot isnt responding to anything, what did i do wrong ?
06:50	rasputnik	clgv: I don't know the library functions at all, see, so have to bang rocks together
06:50	rasputnik	(which i think is part of the point of the exercise)
06:51	clgv	depending on you knowledge probably. but if so you should read about the basic data types in clojure and the common operations on them
06:52	rasputnik	clgv: yeah think it comes down to lucky stumbling at the moment :)
06:52	rasputnik	was happy with the previous exercise, ended up with a sort of map/reduce to count sequence elements
06:52	clgv	rasputnik: you got a clojure book?
06:53	rasputnik	clgv: yup, programming clojure (the pragprog one). it's pretty good.
06:53	rasputnik	i'm on the tail recursion chapter, which is probably why i'm fixating on it now
06:53	clgv	rasputnik: then read the part about the data structures after that problem ^^
06:54	clgv	or if you having problems stop to read it^^
06:55	rasputnik	ah, it's all good fun. doing this while I'm off on sick leave from work, so no rush.
06:55	rasputnik	clgv: thanks for the advice though, appreciate it.
06:56	clgv	ah ok. I wouldnt want to spent so much time on the simple problems - I like the harder problems on 4clojure more ;)
06:57	rasputnik	clgv: sometimes you have to plod through the easy stuff to get to the final boss though IYSWIM
06:59	rasputnik	WOOOO nailed it!
07:00	ro_st	where can i learn about leiningen trampoline's with-profile?
07:03	rasputnik	also: cheated and did a (source reverse) which is probably not in the spirit.
07:04	clgv	rasputnik: try golf score 7 ;)
07:05	rasputnik	hey, baby steps here mate ):
07:05	rasputnik	i'll have a look at yours on there
07:09	rasputnik	clgv: actually that can get to 6 #trolololol
07:10	clgv	humm right
07:10	rasputnik	(don't need the "'")
07:11	rasputnik	(i am following a few people, not my solution. sorry :))
07:11	clgv	probably remained from that clojure 1.1/1.0 book
07:13	mpan	how is golf scored in this sort of syntax? # tokens? #s-exprs?
07:14	rasputnik	mpan: character count
07:15	mpan	ah ok thanks
07:15	clgv	non-whitespace character count ^^
08:01	romain_p_	Hi everyone, does anybody know how to handle the DRAGSTART event using ClojureScript (and C2 if possible: the "on"... function); also, does adding drag and drop handlers on SVG elements work?
08:02	romain_p_	(I mean the Google Closure DRAGSTART event)
08:33	michaelr525	hmm
08:33	michaelr525	how to read request body in comojure?
08:33	michaelr525	I'm getting it as org.eclipse.jetty.server.HttpInput
08:39	xeqi	michaelr525: I would use ring.middleware.multipart-params; which you get if you use compojure.handler/site
08:40	xeqi	that will read it for you and place key/values into the params
08:40	michaelr525	oh cool
08:41	michaelr525	xeqi: thanks
08:42	deadringer	not sure if this question is appropriate for the channel, but does anyone have any experience with using proguard on uberjars?
08:43	michaelr525	xeqi: and for json?
08:43	deadringer	I've been trying to make it work on a default lein project for the past hour or so... constantly running into problems. Wondering if anybody can help.
08:43	wmealing_	anyone here run lazybot ?
08:49	michaelr525	ring-json-params seems good
09:00	xeqi	michaelr525: that could work, or you could run chesire over the values manually
09:01	xeqi	wmealing_: that would be Raynes or amalloy_, but I've been futzing with it lately
09:01	xeqi	do you have a question about it?
09:03	wmealing_	xeqi: yeah, kind of expected it to respond.. to anything
09:03	wmealing_	xeqi: ie, a login.. but i never hear peep from it
09:03	wmealing_	how do you login ?
09:03	xeqi	&"hi"
09:03	lazybot	⇒ "hi"
09:04	wmealing_	the symbol is @ by default,
09:04	wmealing_	i dont think i have the clojure stuff enabled
09:04	xeqi	$login I think, only ever seen raynes do it for updates
09:05	xeqi	ah, you're running a version of it
09:05	wmealing_	yes..
09:06	wmealing_	i can look deeper, but if ive done something obviously stupid..
09:06	wmealing_	'd rather spent time having it do what i need, rather than spend hours finding that i missed something obvious
09:09	wmealing_	xeqi: have you set it up ?
09:09	xeqi	do you have a ~/.lazybot/config.clj ?
09:09	wmealing_	yes.
09:10	wmealing_	i have it join an irc network
09:10	wmealing_	and the channel
09:10	xeqi	no, I've just been over the source code a few times
09:12	xeqi	blah, I'm outta helpful ideas, but would expect it to be related to the config.
09:12	xeqi	might have to wait for one of Raynes or amalloy_ for good advice
09:17	michaelr525	xeqi: i wonder how chesire compares with clojure.data.json
09:20	clgv	do I have any chance to create a macro that generates a ns-form and use this instead of an ns-form?
09:21	clgv	my first try fails when the generated ns-form loads another ns with the same macro
09:25	romain_p_	I get an error when trying to use C2's 'on-raw' function: "invalid listener argument". The code is: (on-raw "#list" ".item" :dragstart (fn [e] (.log js/console (str "dragstart "))))
09:25	romain_p_	Anybody knows why?
09:25	xeqi	michaelr525: the impression I get from here is that it is better, but I haven't used either firsthand
09:37	naeg	how I can I access a specified bit of a number?
09:37	naeg	only way I can think of is bit-test
09:38	tomoj	isn't that what you want?
09:41	naeg	tomoj: seems so :3
09:48	naeg	is it OK to nest two maps? or is there a better solution?
09:49	the-kenny	naeg: Absolutely ok. Just use whatever data format fits to your domain
09:49	the-kenny	There's even assoc-in to update nested entries.
09:50	naeg	the-kenny: I'm not manipulating, just printing
10:30	Kneferilis	hello
10:30	Kneferilis	it's been a while since the last time I programmed in the java environment
10:31	Kneferilis	what do I need to build an applet in clojure?
10:33	Kneferilis	i mean, ok, I install latest jdk, then?
10:33	S11001001	Kneferilis: lots of patience on behalf of your users, mainly
10:33	Kneferilis	I assume I should have the clojure library in my project's folder?
10:33	S11001001	Kneferilis: you can get applets into jars right?
10:33	nDuff	Kneferilis: If you aren't already, you should be using a clojure-aware build tool
10:34	S11001001	Kneferilis: as nDuff says, start with leiningen
10:34	nDuff	Kneferilis: ...those will be responsible for downloading the version of Clojure you want for you.
10:34	nDuff	(If you already have a codebase using something other than Leiningen, there are plugins for Gradle, Maven, &c. adding Clojure support -- but Leiningen _is_ the gold standard)
10:35	Kneferilis	nDuff: so, leiningen compiles my projects?
10:35	nDuff	Kneferilis: Yes.
10:35	uvtc	Kneferilis: I haven't seen applets used in quite a while. If you want an app that runs in a browser, I think you can use Clojurescript to build client-side browser-based apps.
10:35	Kneferilis	nDuff: sounds good, does it also install jdk and clojure library?
10:36	S11001001	Kneferilis: not jdk
10:36	Kneferilis	S11001001: just the clojure library?
10:36	uvtc	Kneferilis: What OS are you using?
10:36	S11001001	Kneferilis: jre (not jdk as it happens) is lein's prerequisite
10:37	Kneferilis	uvtc: windows 7 64 bit at home, it's for a home project
10:37	Kneferilis	S11001001: how is lein going to compile a project without jdk?
10:37	S11001001	Kneferilis: because clojure is not java
10:37	jcromartie	speaking of Clojure and OS… I have a Mac OS X Lion system running an Ubuntu Server inside VirtualBox
10:37	jcromartie	Clojure is about 2X faster in the VM
10:37	S11001001	Kneferilis: and every other library you end up using, plus it packages things up right and sets up your editor for repl hacking
10:37	jcromartie	,(time (count (map str (range (Math/pow 10 6)))))
10:37	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 518.675539 msecs"
10:37	clojurebot	1000000
10:38	jcromartie	that runs in 310 msecs on the host OS, 160 on the guest
10:38	Kneferilis	S11001001: sounds cool
10:38	uvtc	Kneferilis: Note that Clojure is just another Java jar. Once you've got Java installed, you install Leiningen (the project management tool), and it will take care of grabbing all your dependencies for you (including Clojure itself).
10:39	S11001001	Kneferilis: the clojure library includes the clojure compiler, so the only reason to have jdk is if you need to compile java source as well
10:39	Kneferilis	I see. I will go for lein ofcource. But maybe I will just build a desktop application, I don't know if lein compiles applets.
10:39	chouser	Kneferilis: one key complication is that unsigned applets cannot do reflection, so you'll have to be vigilant with warn-on-reflection and make sure the Clojure compiler doesn't generate any reflection code, or it'll blow up at runtime.
10:40	nDuff	Kneferilis: There's nothing different about compiling applets.
10:40	nDuff	Kneferilis: ...well, there may be some META-INF miscellany needed -- been too long to remember -- but if it is, and _if_ it can't be added with lein, you can add that in with a shell script.
10:42	djanatyn	what's an idiomatic way to return a list with a random element removed?
10:42	Kneferilis	I see.
10:42	djanatyn	I also want to return the element that I removed, too
10:42	djanatyn	something like (remove-random [1 2 3]) => [1 [2 3]]
10:43	djanatyn	(rand-nth)returns a random element, but I'm working with lists that may have duplicate elements
10:44	djanatyn	I guess removing exactly one of the element returned is an acceptable solution
10:46	abalone	jcromartie: is it clojure that is faster on your ubuntu VM or is it java itself that is faster?
10:46	jcromartie	abalone: I have no idea
10:46	jcromartie	abalone: generally the VM is faster at everything
10:46	jcromartie	abalone: Clojure, Python, Ruby
10:47	abalone	jcromartie: that's pretty cool
10:47	djanatyn	how can I use remove but only remove one item?
10:47	jcromartie	abalone: the guest OS is under much less lost, itself, so it might have a more straightforward path when executing anything… i.e. it's not running a GUI or any extra services
10:48	jcromartie	"much less load"
10:48	S11001001	djanatyn: ##(doc split-with)
10:48	lazybot	⇒ "([pred coll]); Returns a vector of [(take-while pred coll) (drop-while pred coll)]"
10:49	djanatyn	thanks!
10:49	abalone	jcromartie: oh. i thought magic was involved.
10:50	tomoj	djanatyn: what are you actually doing?
10:51	Kneferilis	thanks for the information
10:52	AntelopeSalad	newbie question: is it worth bothering with clojurescript to write client side code (which gets compiled to js automatically i guess?) if you plan to run clojure on the server?
10:53	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Depends on how interesting the things you're doing on the client side are, and if you want to use the reader for transport.
10:53	AntelopeSalad	i'm coming from a node/js background and really like not having to context switch, i was hoping between clojure and clojurescript the same type of workflow would be possible once you have your dev env. setup?
10:53	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: since cljs includes the reader, you can send Clojure literals over the wire between the client and server if you want to not have to deal with JSON or such.
10:54	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...personally, it's been worth it for me, because I like having my state compartmentalized into atoms (with watches used to trigger actions on changes to that state).
10:54	AntelopeSalad	nDuff: so right now you write your server code in clojure and use cljs to spit out js for the client?
10:55	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...not for the project I'm writing _right now_ -- it doesn't have a web interface at all -- but for my last one, yes.
10:55	AntelopeSalad	atm, i'm not even sure what a reader or atom is haha, all i did was watch rich's talk on simple made easy and he's my new hero
10:55	AntelopeSalad	so i figured i'd fool around with clojure
10:57	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: Might I suggest The Joy of Clojure? It covers not only what those things are, but why they're important and when to use them.
10:57	nDuff	(and a whole lot of other underlying philosophy)
10:58	AntelopeSalad	thanks i'll check it out
11:00	AntelopeSalad	you're off by a few states
11:00	chouser	nDuff: I was just re-reading that. It could use some work.
11:01	AntelopeSalad	is it more philosophy oriented? i'm usually iffy on books when it comes to programming languages because of how things change
11:01	nDuff	chouser: ...heh. Another edition pending?
11:01	chouser	nDuff: shh
11:01	wmealing_	xeqi: the problem was a poorly configured mongodb/hostname resolution problem
11:02	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: It's much more philosophy oriented than the other leading (IMHO) book, Clojure Programming (http://clojurebook.com/)
11:02	abalone	chouser: if we bought the ebook, would an update cost money?
11:02	nDuff	AntelopeSalad: ...though Clojure Programming covers a lot of philosophy too; you can't go wrong with either.
11:02	chouser	abalone: if there were an update, I have no idea how the pricing would work out.
11:02	duck11231	AntelopeSalad: "lein cljsbuild auto" works pretty well for automatically compiling your cljs into js for your page to use. I usually keep that running in screen while I'm developing
11:03	AntelopeSalad	duck1123: nice, so it's seamless for development -- and you deploy native js?
11:05	duck11231	yep. As soon as I save the file, the js should be ready for me to use. I have it compile to the my assets directory
11:06	AntelopeSalad	excellent, that's exactly what i'm looking for -- context switching wise (mentally), are you experiencing any problems?
11:06	duck11231	you just have to resist the urge to hit C-c C-k (The command to send clojure code to the server) I don't know what I'd do if Clojure ever got :use-macros
11:07	duck11231	Not really. I'm dealing with a lot of non-cljs libraries, so I have to think about how it'll emit the js code, but for most things, I just think in Clojure
11:08	AntelopeSalad	seems fair enough
11:10	nDuff	...so my experience with clojurescript doesn't include so much about avoiding C-c C-k :)
11:10	nDuff	that said, you _will_ need to figure out how to write annotations for the 3rd-party javascript libraries you interoperate with if you want to be able to compile in advanced mode (and if you don't, the generated javascript is huge)
11:11	duck11231	I tried using the clojurescript repl, but I wasn't finding it very useful. Maybe I just wasn't using it right
11:12	nDuff	...so, one thing that I did find necessary was using a browser that can show you source it received over-the-wire when hitting a breakpoint there
11:12	nDuff	without that, the clojurescript repl wouldn't have been nearly as handy
11:12	nDuff	but it's something Chrome does well.
11:12	nDuff	Firebug, not so much.
11:13	duck11231	I used to love Firebug, but since I've been writing a lot of JS for my day job, I've found I prefer the webkit console
11:14	bobbywilson0	I'm not sure why this doesn't work `(map str/split ["01 02 03", "04 05 06"] #"\s")`, can anyone explain?
11:15	xeqi	for clojurescript and C-c C-k: https://github.com/cemerick/piggieback
11:15	duck11231	,(map #(str/split % #"\s") ["01 02 03", "04 05 06"])
11:15	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: str, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:15	xeqi	well, I think theres a pull request I need to send to nrepl.el first, but it should all work well together soon
11:16	duck11231	,(map #(clojure.string/split % #"\s") ["01 02 03", "04 05 06"])
11:16	clojurebot	(["01" "02" "03"] ["04" "05" "06"])
11:16	bobbywilson0	duck11231: thanks
11:17	duck11231	bobbywilson0: in your case, it was trying to take one from each collection (including the "collection" #"\s")
11:17	bobbywilson0	duck11231: ah, ok makes sense
11:18	tomoj	&(map clojure.string/split ["01 02 03" "04/05/06"] [#"\s" #"/"])
11:18	lazybot	⇒ (["01" "02" "03"] ["04" "05" "06"])
11:19	bobbywilson0	tomoj: oh interesting
11:21	djcoin	Does clojurescript generate "compact" javascript with not so much boilerplate so it can be inspected/used to debug in the browser ?
11:22	duck11231	if you choose the simple or whitespace modes, you can usually get something clean enough that you can follow it, but messier than hand-written code
11:22	djcoin	I was thinking also to folks pluggin some userscript (exemple with grease monkey)
11:23	djcoin	example *
11:23	djcoin	But I guess I would rather set up a specific API
11:23	djcoin	ok duck11231
11:23	djcoin	thanks :)
11:24	djcoin	It's a very vague question but I too, come rather from writing heavy loads of js. A bit from nodejs and most of in clientside
11:25	duck11231	The other day, I took a simple mode output and shrunk it down to what I would've written in js, there was quite a bit of shrinkage. Mostly due to stuff like gensyms and the whay it represents things like when-let and or
11:28	kang	I wonder how I can get the the sequence (from head to some proper place) when the item firstly broke some rule? for example (thefunctioniwant #(> 3) '(1 2 3 4 5 6)) would return (1 2 3 4)
11:28	duck11231	Sometimes I'll open my generated js file in one buffer, and have my cljs source in the other buffer and set the js file to auto revert. That way I can see how changing my cljs forms affect the generated js.
11:28	xeqi	(doc take-while)
11:28	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
11:30	kang	thanks.
11:32	AntelopeSalad	duck1123: have you seen this? http://vimeo.com/29535884
11:33	AntelopeSalad	it's a short video on using the cljs repl
11:34	duck11231	AntelopeSalad: I did, but I got annoyed when I couldn't simply require my namespace and invoke my functions like I would in a clj repl
11:34	duck11231	so I didn't go much further
11:34	duck11231	one of these days I'll go back and try it again
11:35	nDuff	(you couldn't?)
11:36	duck11231	nDuff: no, and when I asked about it, I was told it wasn't possible. (love for you to proove me wrong)
11:36	nDuff	...granted, if you used (ns ...) to changes namespaces, you needed the whole declaration, as it would otherwise wipe your requires/whatnot...
11:36	nDuff	but, ehh, I did that all the time.
11:36	duck11231	ok, then. I'll give it another shot later on tonight
11:37	nDuff	...oh, require'ing your namespace, not switching to it, so you _are_ suggesting a slightly different workflow
11:37	nDuff	I always moved the REPL into my target namespace.
11:38	duck11231	for instance, I was in my target namespace, but then I was trying to require some of the utility namespaces I use (such as jayq.core)
11:39	duck11231	I could access all of my namespaces via interop, but by that point, why not just use chrome's console
11:43	imade	it it possible to destruct a map in a let?
11:43	llasram	Lazy IRC question: I vaguely recall a utility library which contained a macro (or at least template) for implementing all the map-ish interfaces for a fresh deftype. Anyone know what I might be thinking of?
11:44	duck11231	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [a b c])
11:44	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
11:44	nDuff	imade: Yes, it is.
11:44	imade	(let [{true anagrams false rest} (group-by (partial anagram? w) words)]
11:44	naeg	What is the correct way to determine the order of expressions depening on some test? i'm doing it with a if, but that's ugly: http://bpaste.net/show/204CYg8hsbCkOixIt1Z4/
11:44	imade	this gives error
11:45	nDuff	imade: See the way duck1123 just demonstrated it to you
11:45	hyPiRion	,((juxt keys vals) {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3})
11:46	clojurebot	[(:a :c :b) (1 3 2)]
11:46	imade	but if I know that my map would be {true xs false ys} and I want only xs, then how can I destruct to get xs
11:46	jcromartie	I saw a presentation that said you can use "send" inside of "dosync" and it will only send the action if the transaction completes
11:46	jcromartie	but I do not see this documente
11:47	jcromartie	documented anywhere
11:47	nDuff	jcromartie: It _is_ the case.
11:47	hyPiRion	imade: (let [xs (map true)] ...) ?
11:47	jcromartie	oh I see
11:47	jcromartie	I was grep'ing for "dosync" and "send" in their respective docs
11:47	jcromartie	"Agents are integrated with the STM - any dispatches made in a transaction are held until it commits, and are discarded if it is retried or aborted."
11:47	nDuff	Ahh; there you are.
11:48	imade	hyPiRion, yes that would work, but I was searching for smth else
11:49	nDuff	imade: destructuring expects the keys to be keywords, not values
11:49	nDuff	imade: ...so, having true rather than :foo as your key makes it not a good fit.
11:50	imade	nDuff, ok, thanks
11:50	imade	I'll use intermediate result then
11:51	duck1123	,(let [{t true f false} {true 'xs false 'ys}] [t f])
11:51	clojurebot	[xs ys]
11:53	imade	duck1123, nice!
11:54	duck1123	map destructuring expects the first val to be a var and the second to be the key. If the first val is a keyword, it does something special. (:keys :as :or, etc.)
11:55	nDuff	Heh.
11:59	whitaker	I'm musing out loud, but… has anyone else here wanted to talk AMQP to RabbitMQ, tried WabbitMQ for its advertised ease of use, only to dump it in disgust in favor of Langohr? Just curious.
11:59	antares_	whitaker: I did
11:59	antares_	I developed Langohr for that reason
11:59	Chousuke	:P
11:59	whitaker	ah!
12:00	whitaker	heh
12:00	nDuff	antares_: heh -- howdy!
12:00	whitaker	Thanks for Langohr.
12:00	whitaker	same.
12:01	antares_	Langohr is far from ideal and does not have doc guides like http://rubyamqp.info but it was built with a few years of RabbitMQ usage behind me and follows AMQP 0.9.1 model closely
12:02	duck1123	whitaker: When I was using Rabbit I did exactly that (wabbit first, then langohr)
12:02	whitaker	I wasted a couple of days recently dealing with WabbitMQ, and then, after some hours of RTFM, I had a "WTF?" moment and realized that the implementor didn't under the spec
12:02	nDuff	...only place where I've had issues with langohr is not throwing exceptions early enough
12:02	antares_	but with http://clojureelasticsearch.info being almost 1.0, Langohr will soon get its own dose of attention
12:02	nDuff	for instance, if the server closes my channel due to duplicate acks, I don't get an exception over that, but only about the channel being closed next time I try to do something
12:02	whitaker	s/under/understand
12:02	nDuff	with no obvious way to tell how/why it closed
12:02	antares_	nDuff: feel free to file issues if you don't like something
12:03	antares_	nDuff: that's strange, maybe langohr.consumer/subscribe swallows exceptions
12:03	antares_	the Java client will raise an exception
12:04	antares_	or rather, pass it to a handler
12:04	antares_	that's a tricky part to expose to Clojure in a good way
12:04	antares_	you basically need a bunch of functions tied together
12:05	whitaker	Has anyone here personally tried to educate mefesto/Allen Johnson on the deficiencies of wabbitmq?
12:06	nDuff	Hmm. If I follow correctly (and I'm not sure I do) -- would it be reasonable for the handler to store the exception associated with the channel, then raise it on next use?
12:06	nDuff	Eh -- probably makes more sense to have this discussion happen in a ticket.
12:07	technomancy	antares_: I may end up adapting clojuresphere to use neocons; digging the docs there
12:08	antares_	nDuff: there is a way to create a consumer with a bunch of functions, I think we need to somehow make consumer/subscribe be more like that
12:08	antares_	technomancy: nice. What does it currently use?
12:09	technomancy	antares_: slurp+read-string =)
12:09	technomancy	the data set changes very slowly, but part of that is due to the fact that it's currently cumbersome to update
12:09	antares_	technomancy: I see. Yeah, it may be a bit tricky to efficiently query with that.
12:10	technomancy	well it's still quite small
12:10	antares_	plus, neo4j server has decent search built in which is nice
12:10	technomancy	so the primary deficiency of the current setup is the fact that the data map is checked into git
12:11	XPherior	If another thread has a var, and I try to do with-redefs on it on another thread, should with-redefs actually fail to override the var?
12:11	XPherior	Totally baffled by this one for like 2 weeks.
12:12	technomancy	with-redefs changes the var's root, so it's visible everywhere. it's not the slightest bit safe and inappropriate for production use.
12:13	technomancy	it's there for tests
12:13	XPherior	technomancy: Idea is that I have a function that gets data from persistence. In a test, I want to override what it does to return canned data.
12:13	XPherior	So yes, trying to use it for tests. I passed #'app to run-jetty as well
12:13	technomancy	cool; should be good then
12:13	XPherior	You'd think, right?
12:14	XPherior	Maybe something's up with clj-webdriver.
12:15	XPherior	If you get a sec, could you see if anything's obviously wrong with how I'm trying it, technomancy? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/12271054/compojure-app-not-playing-well-with-with-redefs
12:16	djanatyn	tomoj: I was trying to ... uhh, shake a list
12:16	djanatyn	to mix up the elements randomly
12:16	XPherior	Shuffle, djanatyn
12:16	djanatyn	is there a (/ x y) that always returns a float?
12:16	djanatyn	I always do (defn d [x y] (float (/ x y)))
12:16	djanatyn	thanks, XPherior
12:18	naeg	new connect four checking algorithm using bitboard reprensation: https://gist.github.com/3639220
12:18	naeg	would be great if some of you could take a look at it and help me, especially with (insert) and (bit-check-board)
12:19	naeg	also, the checking algorithm always checks the whole board, but takes only ~0.025 msecs
12:26	Moses	I'm running ubuntu and can't seem to get compojure's auto refresh working. Its loading up chromium, but when I change my source files, it doesn't refresh the browser.
12:27	XPherior	I don't think it's supposed to work like that, Moses?
12:28	scriptor	Moses: I Mthink this might help https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/wiki/Interactive-Development
12:28	XPherior	Maybe I'm wrong. Shrug
12:29	Moses	Thank you <scriptor>
12:30	nDuff	...frankly, if refreshing the browser manually reflects your code changes, you're doing pretty well. :)
12:30	XPherior	Haha.. Yeah that's true nDuff
12:30	scriptor	how neat would that be though, if ring could force browser refreshes on code changes?
12:30	XPherior	I'd adore it.
12:31	XPherior	Does Chrome have an API sort of thing for being able to force a refresh from another process?
12:31	hyPiRion	Some javascript injection and you've got it.
12:31	technomancy	XPherior: mozrepl does that for mozilla
12:31	scriptor	yep, if you want to get fancy I guess it could be done via websockets
12:31	technomancy	chrome's extension API is pretty crappy compared to moz though
12:31	XPherior	technomancy: That's sick. I gotta try it.
12:32	XPherior	Hey technomancy, curious. What're you doing for a living at the moment?
12:32	scriptor	window.location = window.location seems to work
12:32	technomancy	XPherior: I'm working for Heroku maintaining Clojure support and the general build pipeline
12:33	XPherior	Wow, that's a sweet job.
12:33	technomancy	can't complain
12:33	`thomas	With Seesaw is it possible to listen to a change of a slider's value?
12:36	antares_	technomancy: ok, let me know how it goes with Neocons
12:40	bobbywilson0	,(map #(read-string (str/replace % #"^0" "")) (map #(str/split % #"\s") (#(str/split-lines %) "01 02 03\n04 05 06")))
12:40	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: str, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:40	bobbywilson0	,(map #(read-string (clojure.string/replace % #"^0" "")) (map #(clojure.string/split % #"\s") (#(clojure.string/split-lines %) "01 02 03\n04 05 06")))
12:40	clojurebot	(["01" "02" "03"] ["04" "05" "06"])
12:41	bobbywilson0	I am expecting ([1 2 3] [4 5 6]) what did I mess up?
12:42	hyPiRion	,(read-string "01")
12:42	clojurebot	1
12:42	bobbywilson0	hyPiRion: that's what I want :)
12:42	scriptor	, (map #(clojure.string/split % #"\s") (#(clojure.string/split-lines %) "01 02 03\n04 05 06"))
12:42	clojurebot	(["01" "02" "03"] ["04" "05" "06"])
12:43	hyPiRion	yeah, there's your problem.
12:43	raek	,(read-string "08")
12:43	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 08>
12:43	hyPiRion	,(read-string "([\"01\" \"02\" \"03\"] [\"04\" \"05\" \"06\"])")
12:43	clojurebot	(["01" "02" "03"] ["04" "05" "06"])
12:44	hyPiRion	,(read-string "[\"01\" \"02\" \"03\"]")
12:44	clojurebot	["01" "02" "03"]
12:44	bobbywilson0	hyPiRion: I still don't understand the problem
12:44	bobbywilson0	raek: I am replacing the leading zeros with ""
12:44	bobbywilson0	,(read-string "8")
12:44	clojurebot	8
12:45	gfredericks	,(read-string "0456")
12:45	clojurebot	302
12:45	hyPiRion	bobbywilson0: You're mapping the different vectors, not the elements.
12:45	nvy	map twice or so
12:45	bobbywilson0	hyPiRion: ahhh, ok, shoot
12:46	raek	,(for [line (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06"))] (for [word (re-seq #"\S" line)] (Integer/parseInt word)))
12:46	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
12:46	raek	,(for [line (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06")] (for [word (re-seq #"\S" line)] (Integer/parseInt word)))
12:46	clojurebot	((0 1 0 2 0 ...) (0 4 0 5 0 ...))
12:47	raek	,(for [line (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06")] (for [word (re-seq #"\S+" line)] (Integer/parseInt word)))
12:47	clojurebot	((1 2 3) (4 5 6))
12:47	raek	maybe Long/parseLong is more ideomatic these days...
12:47	bobbywilson0	raek: interesting approach with for
12:47	bobbywilson0	oh ok
12:48	bobbywilson0	I didn't know about Long/parseLong
12:53	tanzoniteblack	bobbywilson0: all the long methods from java (http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/Long.html) are available to you, hence Long/parseLong
12:55	mdeboard	hm
12:55	mdeboard	,(-> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (fn [x] (apply (clojure.string/split x #"\s+"))))
12:55	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol>
12:55	mdeboard	:boggle:
12:55	mdeboard	Why doesn't that work
12:55	nDuff	Can one provide a default implementation of a protocol? I notice that providing an implementation for Object isn't good enough -- doesn't help nil, for instance, and I'm worried about whether other boundary cases exist as well.
12:56	bobbywilson0	tanzoniteblack: unfortunately I don't know a lick of java :[
12:56	nDuff	mdeboard: Think about how the threading macro rewrites the fn _definition_
12:56	mdeboard	,(-> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") #(apply (clojure.string/split % #"\s+")))
12:56	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentVector, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
12:57	nDuff	mdeboard: (fn (clojure.string/split-lines ...) [x] (apply ...))
12:57	dnolen	nDuff: default and nil are not the same case, you need to handle both.
12:58	nDuff	dnolen: Noted. Presuming that I do so -- is Object good enough for default?
12:58	dnolen	nDuff: yes that's what Object is for, the default.
12:58	tanzoniteblack	bobbywilson0: you don't need to know Java, but if you feel like you're "missing" some sort of method that would be bloody useful on a basic type (like Long, or Integer, or String), try typing (javadoc Long) and see if Java has something for you
12:59	mdeboard	nDuff: Wait, huh? I thought it got compiled to `(fn [x] (apply (split (split-lines "w x\ny z") #"\s")))'
12:59	bobbywilson0	tanzoniteblack: thanks for the tip
12:59	nbeloglazov	&(doc ->)
12:59	gtrak`	I saw a discussion on read-string vs Integer/parseInt here yesterday, and now I find that I need to do the same thing. I think the consensus was read-string was better, however it seems like calling read-string on user input (command line arguments) is probably a bad thing to do, yes? I guess it's not harmful unless eval'd.
12:59	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([x] [x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the second item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the second item in second form, etc."
13:00	mdeboard	I see
13:00	mdeboard	Ok
13:00	mdeboard	mind blown
13:00	nbeloglazov	why read-string was better?
13:01	TimMc	gtrak`: Sure, so make sure read-eval is disabled.
13:01	gtrak`	TimMc: ah, thanks for the tip, didn't know about that one
13:01	TimMc	Integer/parseInt just makes more sense to me -- very clear on input and output.
13:02	nbeloglazov	I also like Inteteger/parseInt more
13:02	TimMc	gtrak`: Yeah, I've filed a bug for that to be mentioned in read(-string)'s docs... :-/
13:02	gtrak`	I will +1 it :-)
13:03	mdeboard	clojurebot has just informed me that noir is great
13:03	bobbywilson0	technomancy nbeloglazov: because it more clearly expresses what you are trying to do?
13:03	TimMc	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-904
13:03	tanzoniteblack	read-string does have more flexibility if you're not sure what kind of number is going to be coming to you, i.e. (read-string "2.3")
13:03	nbeloglazov	bobbywilson0: usually operation is to convert string to int, not to just read string and get some unknown object
13:04	tanzoniteblack	granted...sometimes you don't want that flexibility, but want to control your inputs better so you don't get input like that, but somtimes you might
13:05	nbeloglazov	&(Double/parseDouble "100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000")
13:05	lazybot	⇒ 1.0E50
13:05	bobbywilson0	makes sense
13:08	Norrit	Hi, I have a littel problem with nrepl.el ...
13:08	Norrit	When I connect to a nrepl server in emacs the repl is opened but when I try to evaluate an expression the error "Wrong type argument: stringp, nill" is thrown ... any suggestions?
13:08	nbeloglazov	Norrit: what version of emacs?
13:09	nbeloglazov	Norrit: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el/issues/88
13:09	Norrit	24 .. let me check
13:09	nbeloglazov	Hm, then it's not the case
13:10	Norrit	GNU Emacs 24.0.94.7
13:10	nbeloglazov	Don't know then
13:11	Norrit	ok, thanks anyway :-)
13:25	mdeboard	ok, here we go.
13:25	mdeboard	(-> (split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (#(map (fn [x] (split x #"\s+")) %)) flatten (#(map read-string %)))
13:25	mdeboard	,(-> (split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (#(map (fn [x] (split x #"\s+")) %)) flatten (#(map read-string %)))
13:25	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: split in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:25	mdeboard	you son of a gun
13:25	mdeboard	(-> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (#(map (fn [x] (clojure.string/split x #"\s+")) %)) flatten (#(map clojure.string/read-string %)))
13:26	mdeboard	,(-> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (#(map (fn [x] (clojure.string/split x #"\s+")) %)) flatten (#(map clojure.string/read-string %)))
13:26	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: No such var: clojure.string/read-string, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
13:26	mdeboard	Sorry for the spam.
13:26	mdeboard	,(-> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (#(map (fn [x] (clojure.string/split x #"\s+")) %)) flatten (#(map read-string %)))
13:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
13:26	mdeboard	There.
13:28	djanatyn	is there anything special you need to do with defrecord to use the classes you made in other files?
13:29	TimMc	~flatten
13:29	clojurebot	flatten is rarely the right answer. Suppose you need to use a list as your "base type", for example. Usually you only want to flatten a single level, and in that case you're better off with concat. Or, better still, use mapcat to produce a sequence that's shaped right to begin with.
13:29	djanatyn	in roguelike.entity, I have the line (defrecord Entity [name stats])
13:30	djanatyn	in roguelike.player, my namespace declartion is (ns roguelike.player (:use roguelike.entity))
13:30	dnolen	mdeboard: it seems a bit odd to use -> there when you're threading through seq ops.
13:30	dnolen	,(->> (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06") (map (fn [x] (clojure.string/split x #"\s+"))) flatten (map read-string))
13:30	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
13:30	djanatyn	errm, roguelike.entity is in a vector.
13:30	mdeboard	dnolen: Yeah, I was just being stubborn at that point
13:30	TimMc	,(for [line (clojure.string/split-lines "01 02 03\n04 05 06"), num-str (clojure.string/split line #"\s+")] (read-string num-str))
13:30	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
13:30	djanatyn	in roguelik.player, I tried using (def me (Entity. "djanatyn" {:hp 10 :mp 10}))
13:30	mdeboard	I agree threading macros aren't the right choice, I was just determined.
13:31	TimMc	mdeboard: ^ use for :-)
13:31	mdeboard	ld if I was going ot use 'for' I'd write Python
13:31	mdeboard	ಠ_ಠ
13:31	mdeboard	(kidding)
13:31	dnolen	djanatyn: :import, but really you should use the create ctors or your own.
13:31	djanatyn	after trying to compile roguelike.player, it says "unable to resolve classname: Entity" D:
13:32	dnolen	the created ctors or you own I mean.
13:32	djanatyn	ctors? o_O
13:32	pandeiro	is there a shortcut to recompile all emacs buffers in nrepl?
13:32	dnolen	(ns foo (:import [your.ns Entity]))
13:32	dnolen	djanatyn: ctor -> constructor fns
13:33	aaelony	I'd like to avoid #{:b :a} since #{:a :b} is sufficient. How can I amend the following? (for [x (seq [:a :b :c]) y (seq [:a :b :c]) :when (not= x y)] (into #{} [x y]))
13:34	aaelony	,(for [x (seq [:a :b :c]) y (seq [:a :b :c]) :when (not= x y)] (into #{} [x y]))
13:34	clojurebot	(#{:a :b} #{:a :c} #{:a :b} #{:c :b} #{:a :c} ...)
13:34	dnolen	djanatyn: if you use the namespace where the record is defined a positional ctor function called ->Entity will be available
13:34	djanatyn	oh! I saw that, and I was really confused
13:34	pandeiro	,(set (for [x (seq [:a :b :c]) y (seq [:a :b :c]) :when (not= x y)] (into #{} [x y])))
13:34	clojurebot	#{#{:a :c} #{:a :b} #{:c :b}}
13:35	djanatyn	I didn't define that function anywhere :)
13:35	aaelony	pandeiro: that gives two #{:a :b}
13:35	pandeiro	aaelony: in the same set?
13:35	aaelony	yes
13:36	djanatyn	:) now everything is in seperate namespaces and works together
13:36	aaelony	that gives: (#{:a :b} #{:a :c} #{:a :b} #{:c :b} #{:a :c} #{:c :b})
13:36	djanatyn	thanks, dnolen
13:36	dnolen	djanatyn: np
13:36	pandeiro	aaelony: pretty sure by definition it doesn't
13:37	raek	aaelony: not when you wrap the whole thing in (set ...)
13:37	aaelony	pandeiro: try it
13:37	pandeiro	i just did, above
13:37	raek	(as pandeiro did)
13:37	aaelony	pandeiro: I see, I was using it with sorted-set
13:38	Cheiron	hey, what is the original bishop project on github?
13:38	raek	,(for [x [:a :b :c], y [:a :b :c], :when (> x y)] #{x y})
13:38	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
13:38	aaelony	set works, but yet sorted-set gives two
13:38	Cheiron	https://github.com/search?q=bishop&repo=&langOverride=&start_value=1&type=Repositories&language=Clojure too many, don't know what is the original
13:38	raek	,(for [x [:a :b :c], y [:a :b :c], :when (pos? (compare x y))] #{x y})
13:38	clojurebot	(#{:a :b} #{:a :c} #{:c :b})
13:38	aaelony	raek: that's cool
13:39	raek	if the items are not comparable you could let x and y be indices of a vector of the items
13:40	aaelony	I'm playing around with ways to compare subsequent items in a vector
13:40	raek	,(let [v [:a :b :c], n (count v)] (for [x (range n), y (range n), :when (> x y)] #{(get v x) (get v y)}))
13:40	clojurebot	(#{:a :b} #{:a :c} #{:c :b})
13:40	nz-	(doc pos?)
13:40	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if num is greater than zero, else false"
13:40	nz-	(doc neg?)
13:40	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if num is less than zero, else false"
13:46	aaelony	raek: compare appears really useful in this case, thanks!
13:49	pandeiro	is nrepl-enable-on-existing-buffers like a nrepl-load-current-buffer for all open buffers?
13:50	abalone	http://twoguysarguing.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/7-rules-for-writing-clojure-programs/ ... rule #7 first paragraph ... why does he threaten to death-bludgeon if you start typing the threading macro?
13:50	aaelony	pandeiro: thanks for your help as well
13:51	pandeiro	aaelony: np
13:52	abalone	"you should use ->>" ... "but if you type the threading macro i'll bludgeon you" ... "most of the time a let would suffice" ... "but it's pathological". say what?
13:53	TimMc	Clearly it's TwoGuysArguing.
13:54	abalone	there are four lights!
13:55	abalone	(one guy needs more line breaks to become two guys)
13:55	abalone	maybe i'll read something else. anyone have a favorite rant on loop/recur for me?
13:56	SegFaultAX\|work2	abalone: What are you having trouble with?
13:56	abalone	tho i still really want to know about that bludgeoning impulse. SegFaultAX\|work2: why does he want to bludgeon if you start typing the threading macro?
13:58	abalone	maybe the thing about loop/recur is if you can at all avoid it with a single core clojure fn or a composition of such fn's then that's better than loop/recur. if that's the main point then i'm good. except for the bludgeoning impulse triggered by the threading macro. still don't get that.
13:59	llasram	abalone: I think that post author trying is that the threading macros are crutches for making functional code look more like imperative code. Which he's fine with, unless you're praising functional code? That's my interpretation anyway
14:00	llasram	*what the post author is trying to say
14:01	llasram	Mmmm.... words
14:02	`fogus	Hmmm, I never thought -> or ->> made anything look imperative
14:03	nz-	(doc ->>)
14:03	clojurebot	"([x form] [x form & more]); Threads the expr through the forms. Inserts x as the last item in the first form, making a list of it if it is not a list already. If there are more forms, inserts the first form as the last item in second form, etc."
14:03	SegFaultAX\|work2	Are the threading macros generally disliked?
14:03	abalone	i like em
14:03	llasram	I think I tend to over use them, but definitely like them
14:04	abalone	`fogus: maybe steps in forward sequence look imperative. that's all
14:04	llasram	They make sequences of sequence ops or JVM interop calls waaay easier to grok
14:05	abalone	llasram: your interpretation of his writing works for me. thanks. bludgeon brain wrinlke has been ironed out.
14:05	`fogus	I like them too.
14:06	`fogus	I read them as "Take this, then do this, then take the result and do this, ...."
14:06	Sgeo	I dislike them, but mostly because there are more functional solutions that I think should be used instead
14:06	`fogus	What's non-functional about them?
14:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	`fogus: That's what I don't understand.
14:06	Sgeo	http://blog.fogus.me/2010/09/28/thrush-in-clojure-redux/
14:06	Sgeo	`fogus, they're macros unnecessarily
14:07	Sgeo	It occurs to me that I may be giving your blog post back to you
14:07	abalone	Sgeo: oh. fn-functional
14:07	`fogus	Sgeo: Ah I see. You dislike the magicness of them?
14:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	Are they really that magical?
14:07	Sgeo	`fogus, I dislike the lack of generality... -> puts things in the second position in the form, ->> puts themm in the last
14:07	`fogus	They are magic in that they are syntactic
14:08	`fogus	Sgeo: I see
14:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	But they don't have to be.
14:08	Sgeo	Using thrush instead might force a bit more typing, but allows for more generality
14:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	I was having this discussion the other day and I wrote a functional version of thread in Python: https://gist.github.com/3373635
14:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	And by the other day, I mean almost a month ago apparently.
14:09	Sgeo	(thrush somevalue #(assoc % :foo 5) #(map somefn %))
14:09	SegFaultAX\|work2	But as long as the co-domain of the first function matches the domain of the second and so on, it shouldn't matter that it's syntax should it?
14:09	Sgeo	Wait, that doesn't quite work
14:10	Sgeo	But something along those lines may be more annoying with -> or ->>
14:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	Ah, because -> is maniuplating the forms instead of creating a pipeline of computation.
14:11	abalone	~thrush
14:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:11	abalone	worth a try
14:12	abalone	there was a long discussion on the ML about whether clojure core should support an operator that allowed you to cherrypick the destination of the value in the next argument list
14:12	`fogus	Can I tell clojurebot to link thrush with my blog post?
14:12	abalone	would be nice if ~thrush brought up the conclusion to that
14:12	chouser	such a macro has been written many times
14:13	Sgeo	And it would only need to be written once if it were in the core
14:13	Sgeo	(And it doesn't even need to be a macro, as fogus's blog post shows)
14:13	chouser	yes, but most people who have written it (myself included) have stopped using it.
14:14	Sgeo	Due to reasons intrinsic to it, or due to lack of use elsewhere?
14:14	chouser	intrisic
14:14	`fogus	Having only -> and ->> makes me think harder about my function arg ordering. I rarely have the need for -$> or its ilk
14:15	abalone	chouser: could you explain or link please?
14:16	chouser	I can try. :-)
14:17	cemerick	Sgeo: If core had everything, then no one would need to write anything! ;-)
14:18	hoover_damm	also core would have longer release cycles likely due to extra testing and more people contributing
14:18	hoover_damm	and trying to keep it clean
14:18	chouser	All that's technically required is for the return value of form n to be legal as the first/last parameter of form n+1, but if they're not in some sense similar it is often more confusing to have them in a lexical thread macro than just to use let.
14:19	jkkramer	(inc chouser)
14:19	lazybot	⇒ 9
14:19	TimMc	They're also insufficiently general because they only allow linear chaining. There should also be forms for trees and DAGs!
14:20	chouser	That is, I would recommend against (-> 5 (< 10) (if "whoa"))
14:20	abalone	nice
14:20	chouser	actually, that's bad for different reasons.
14:21	abalone	what are the other reasons?
14:21	chouser	so, helpful use of lexical threading already assumes a similarity of type across the whole form
14:21	hyPiRion	TimMc: I agree, but it shouldn't be in core. Some pipelining library would be nice.
14:21	`fogus	(inc chouser)
14:21	lazybot	⇒ 10
14:22	chouser	once you have that, the set of forms available is constrained to those consuming and returning similar types. The overwhelming majority of these take that similar parameter in the last position (usually fns that take seqables and return seqs) or in the first position (everything else)
14:23	cemerick	hyPiRion: Knock yourself out: https://github.com/rplevy/swiss-arrows
14:23	dnolen	corollary: if you feel the need for a arbitrary threading macro - the API you're being subjected to ... sucks
14:24	Sgeo	Bluh, the diamond wand is a macro isn't it?
14:24	chouser	That simply means that -$> type things are rarely enough needed in practice that falling back to let in those cases usually seems reasonable to me.
14:24	cemerick	The examples on that readme are like a Rorschach test.
14:25	Sgeo	Ok, the nil-shortcutting diamond wand use cases might be better served via monads?
14:26	Sgeo	Hmm, or maybe not
14:26	hyPiRion	cemerick: Well, it's not really what I'm thinking of.
14:26	hyPiRion	(-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) Doesn't really strike me as.... readable.
14:26	chouser	ah, monads. The use cases of the state monad is not unrelated to the use cases of lexical threading.
14:26	chouser	are
14:27	cemerick	hyPiRion: Just another reason to be wary. Making something else that is readable hasn't been shown to be possible.
14:27	chouser	are not
14:27	chouser	you know what I mean
14:27	Sgeo	Hmm, is <<- related to a denest macro I've seen for CL?
14:28	hyPiRion	cemerick: Not yet, at least.
14:29	abalone	~bludgeon
14:29	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc?al?
14:39	gtrak`	I feel like I've seen something just like swiss arrows somewhere once before, but it was an april fools joke
14:46	S11001001	swiss arrows is awesome
14:47	S11001001	Sgeo: yes
14:50	Sgeo	Cool'
14:50	Sgeo	It should really get a better explanation
14:51	S11001001	fyi <<- is just backwards ->>
14:51	mattmoss	o_O
14:52	S11001001	<<- is a replacement for https://github.com/egamble/let-else and -<> is nice in practice; no experience with the other operators in swiss arrows though
14:52	gfredericks	<<-html->><<-body->>Hello World!<<-/body->><<-/html->>
14:52	mattmoss	brain asplode
14:53	gfredericks	^ My new markup language called hhttmmll allows inline html literals with no escaping!
14:54	ro_st	brain asplode indeed
14:57	duck1123	dnolen: regarding my cljs issue last night. One of my transitive dependencies updated and added a reference to the older closure library. That was why I didn't notice it until I cleaned. Once I excluded that jar, it worked fine again.
14:59	casion	how do you use an external library in clojureC? or is this not possible yet?
14:59	dnolen	duck1123: good to hear
15:00	Sgeo	This is really starting to hilight the need for a features mechanism I think
15:30	pandeiro	is there a java or clj lib for doing arithmetic with hours, minutes, seconds?
15:30	dnolen	pandeiro: joda
15:31	uvtc	pandeiro: https://clojars.org/clj-time
15:32	pandeiro	uvtc: dnolen: i looked at clj-time last night but i didn't see how i could do basic time diffs of hour/min/second values w/o regard to timezone
15:32	dnolen	pandeiro: http://github.com/aredington/monotony also looks interesting
15:32	pandeiro	i think i'm looking for something simpler
15:33	pandeiro	just gonna write conversions to and from seconds
15:34	casion	it's pretty easy to do time conversion with (mod)
15:34	casion	for just days/hours/minutes/seconds/etc..
15:35	pandeiro	casion: sure just thought it probably already existed but i guess not
15:40	duck1123	I think kibit gave me bad advice. [251] Consider: :link instead of: (fn [format] [:link format])
15:42	ohpauleez	duck1123: Yeah, it looks like kibit is matching the [] as if it were ()
15:42	arohner	pandeiro: clj-time supports all of that
15:42	arohner	and you're pretty much guaranteed to get it wrong, writing yourself
15:42	ohpauleez	ie: (:link format) instead of (fn [format] (:link format))
15:43	ohpauleez	duck1123: Could you submit a bug on github, someone will get to it
15:43	ohpauleez	thanks for reporting!
15:43	duck1123	sure
15:43	arohner	pandeiro: (time/in-secs (time/interval (time/now) (time/plus (time/now) (time/hours 3))))
15:44	arohner	(require '[clj-time.core :as time])
15:44	dnolen	ohpauleez: unification in core.logic works across ISequential
15:44	cemerick	ohpauleez: Looks like the blog post link @ https://github.com/shoreleave/demo-shoreleave-solr is busted
15:44	ohpauleez	cemerick: Yeah, I haven't written it yet :(
15:44	ohpauleez	but it's coming
15:45	ohpauleez	also, that demo isn't complete
15:45	cemerick	ah ha, a tease!
15:45	Sgeo	I think -<< is beautiful
15:45	Sgeo	Or is it <<-
15:45	ohpauleez	yes, a tease indeed. you should look at ro_st's demo
15:45	Sgeo	It's <<-
15:47	duck1123	Sgeo: That's the problem with having a bunch of funky macro names. (as brilliant as they may be)
15:47	TimMc	pandeiro: You just want ideal time, not calendrical time?
15:47	Sgeo	Hey, does Clojure have an equivalent of prog1?
15:47	TimMc	Sgeo: doto is the closest I can think of
15:47	pandeiro	TimMc: thank you i think that's how to express it
15:47	pandeiro	abstract time?
15:47	ohpauleez	dnolen: Ah, thanks for the tip
15:47	cemerick	ohpauleez: It looks reasonably straightforward, modulo the magic in fetch. :-/
15:47	pandeiro	units of time
15:48	ohpauleez	cemerick: I'm sitting on some screen casts of Shoreleave too
15:48	pandeiro	arohner: thanks for the snippet but i think it's way overkill to do (- 00:01:56,215 00:00:43,632) for example
15:49	arohner	pandeiro: depends on your requirements. doing it yourself, you're guaranteed to get it wrong wrt to timezones and daylight savings
15:49	arohner	if you're fine with that, great
15:49	pandeiro	arohner: yeah these are not calendrical, as TimMc would say ;)
15:52	gtrak`	if I'm using clojure.test fixtures a and b, do they compose like pre-a pre-b (f) post-b post-a, for instance, with (use-fixtures :once a b)? where and and b have stuff before/after the (f)
15:52	Sgeo	Because I like <* in Haskell and prog1 reminds me of it
15:54	antares_	gtrak`: no, I believe each one is called with the test fn as the argument and you do whatever you want there. Many fixture fns can wrap around.
15:54	ohpauleez	cemerick: I've added even more magic ;)
15:54	antares_	gtrak`: in other words, they will be executed in order and given a function as the argument, the rest is up to you
15:54	ohpauleez	You can expose a server-side namespace to the client-side
15:54	ohpauleez	all remote calls of any kind are CSRF protected (if the token is present)
15:55	Sgeo	Magic/more magic?
15:55	cemerick	Yeah, I saw that. That's far too much rope for me.
15:55	gtrak`	antares_: that doesn't quite make sense though, so that would I imply I shouldn't actually call the test-fn in every function except the last?
15:55	TimMc	Sgeo: Easy enough to write for yourself!
15:55	gtrak`	I guess that's alright, if that's the case
15:56	ohpauleez	indeed, you have to be careful not to expose non-sense, but it makes writing Data Abstraction Layers (DALs) a breeze
15:56	ohpauleez	nonsense*
15:56	cemerick	TLA WTF ;-P
15:56	antares_	gtrak`: hm, it's true that it is common to call (f) in more than one. I am not entirely sure how that is implemented then.
15:56	gtrak`	antares_: I guess that means I have to do (use-fixtures :once setup1 setup2 run teardown1 teardown2), where only run calls (f)
15:56	TimMc	(defmacro do1 [form & forms] `(let [ret# ~form] ~@forms ret#))
15:56	abalone	gtrak: i actually use it the way you asked about, i think
15:57	gtrak`	not terribly clear :-)
15:58	abalone	gtrak`: i don't use it like your last description. all my fixtures call f whatever f turns out to be given the pre wrapping done by other fixtures in my list
15:58	gtrak`	ok, that's what I figured was meant by 'compose'
15:59	gtrak`	it's more like ring middleware
15:59	abalone	what do ` and _ mean in nicks anyway?
15:59	cemerick	ohpauleez: I just realized that shoreleave-remote doesn't depend on fetch at all; I over-read into the verbiage in the README :-)
15:59	gtrak`	I have a couple extra nicks for extra comps, when I log on it takes the one with the least ``'s
16:00	ohpauleez	cemerick: Nope, a more secure implementation and some different design decisions
16:00	dysinger	pardon my dumb question. I'm getting rusty at clojure. How do I access super inside gen-class ?
16:00	casion	abalone: usually to deal with ghosts and multiple computers
16:01	cemerick	ohpauleez: works for me; so I should be able to wire up a shoreleave-remote-compojure without much trouble :-)
16:02	ohpauleez	cemerick: Yeah, in 0.2.3 my goal is to make shoreleave's remotes at the ring-middleware level with web-lib independent interop functions
16:02	ohpauleez	but by all means hook it into compojure
16:02	ohpauleez	patches welcome :)
16:03	cemerick	ohpauleez: Sounds much better. Not sure if patches are the right thing; AFAICT, there's quite the schism between what's considered good practice w/ noir vs. compojure.
16:03	ohpauleez	ahh gotcha
16:04	cemerick	That is, I'm not sure if you could satisfy both sensibilities with a single lib.
16:04	ohpauleez	gotcha
16:04	dysinger	I don't see examples anywhere for referencing super instance from a gen-class. am i dumbz?
16:05	aperiodic	dysinger: what do you want to do with the super?
16:05	abalone	gtrak: so i'm not sure what antares_ is saying. which makes me concerned since i am not as knowledgable
16:05	Raynes	Save the world, aperiodic.
16:05	dysinger	:)
16:05	abalone	~Raynes
16:05	clojurebot	if it's not one thing it's another
16:05	abalone	(inc raynes) ; for conch
16:05	lazybot	⇒ 17
16:06	dysinger	I need a reference to the super for reflecting access to a private member field.
16:06	gtrak	abalone: I'll just try it and see, thanks though, what you're saying seems like it could be more right according to what's in the docs
16:07	stain	dysinger: uh.. private in the superclass? You would probably need to delve into th java.lang.reflect API for that
16:08	dysinger	yes
16:08	dysinger	first I an instance reference to the super class as I understand it
16:08	dysinger	first I _need_
16:08	auser	I feel like I'm going to open a can of worms, but… I'm relatively new to product development in clojure and scala… the scala dev. environment with sbt is much faster than lein and clojure… is there a comparable task to the "~" syntax of sbt for leiningen?
16:09	aperiodic	why do you need to access the field in the super rather than in your subclass?
16:09	abalone	gtrak: so far the only thing i've had to experiment with was the ordering
16:09	dysinger	aperiodic: I assume so because it's private field
16:09	llasram	auser: In practice, you use a rather different work flow. Instead you typically have a running REPL session, to which you send all new code as you finish logical blocks (such as functions)
16:09	stain	dysinger: the instance is just the instance, you can't capture "just super" - super is only a way to get hold of the methods and fields above
16:10	llasram	s,running REPL session,running REPL session attached to your editor,
16:10	stain	dysinger: if it is private then it won't be accessible (the clue is in the name)
16:10	hiredman	dysinger: the first argument to functions backing methods in a gen-class is this, which by definition is an instance of its super class
16:10	dysinger	I'm too rusty I guess
16:10	stain	unless you use reflection and manage to flip the field to be protected
16:10	auser	llasram: I suppose I don't have that new workflow "down" yet then
16:10	dysinger	stain you can use reflection and go around private
16:10	dysinger	yes
16:10	llasram	auser: What editor are you using?
16:10	auser	I like "sbt's" sbt ~ test
16:10	stain	so it sounds like you know what to do :)
16:10	auser	llasram: emacs
16:11	hiredman	dysinger: are you trying to access it from the init function?
16:11	aperiodic	dysinger: you can use the :exposes methods to generate getters/setters for your subclass for the private fields in question
16:11	dysinger	no from another method/fun
16:11	aperiodic	s/methods/option
16:11	dysinger	aperiodic: oooooh I like that better
16:11	aperiodic	dysinger: see the gen-class doc string
16:12	auser	also, I have one more question… I really like the storm project and clojure syntax, but I like the akka paradigm (I have a bunch of experience with erlang)
16:12	llasram	auser: Ok, easy-peasy. So using SLIME or nrepl.el, you type some code in a file, then hit C-c C-k. The running REPL session re-compiles the file content, and either spits out errors or succeds, in which case your REPL has the new code
16:13	auser	llasram: does that work with tests, such as autotest? I want to write a test and then write the code for it
16:14	auser	I found okku (https://github.com/gaverhae/okku -- an akka library for clojure), looks pretty nice… anyone have experience with it?
16:14	dysinger	doc string makes it sound like only protected members can be exposed auser
16:14	antares_	auser: SLIME lets you run tests in a long-running JVM and it will recompile what's necessary
16:14	auser	neat
16:15	llasram	auser: There's lazytest, which lets you start a separate persistent process for running tests, but I haven't used it myself. I more test to use clojure-test-mode, and run `clojure-test-run-tests` in the relevant test namespace
16:15	llasram	antares_, auser: Oh, automatically? How does one wire that up?
16:15	antares_	llasram: clojure-jack-in, C-c C-,
16:15	antares_	in a test ns
16:15	llasram	Oh, yeah, that's clojure-test-run-tests :-)
16:15	antares_	right
16:16	auser	hm, I'll check that
16:16	auser	out
16:19	auser	okay, one last question for the #clojure community… prismatic (brilliant software) suggests writing small, contained services… in the erlang world, I would implement these as a gen-server (or an actor), I'm curious if anyone here has similar suggestions for how to approach breaking monolithic services up in clojure
16:19	antares_	auser: as for okku, I think using Akka Java API from Clojure should be pretty nice. okku does not seem to have any documentation beyond 2 examples but from what I know about Akka, it should be fine.
16:19	auser	from what I read (http://blog.darevay.com/2011/06/clojure-and-akka-a-match-made-in/) it's not particularly easy to use the two
16:19	antares_	auser: well, JVM is not BEAM and separate services often means separate apps (that may or may not share a JVM) but you can follow many of the same principles
16:20	antares_	I certainly do with "applications" that can be started, stopped, etc
16:20	Raynes	antares_: I'm actually writing a component of a system fronted by Scala that will use okku.
16:20	Raynes	Going to be interesting.
16:21	auser	you use different jars for different services antares_ ?
16:21	auser	does it make sense to use something like netty combined with little tcp-driven services so you can cross jvm boundaries?
16:21	antares_	Raynes: sorry, what "by Scala" means here?
16:22	Raynes	antares_: The frontend of the thing will be Scala. And other components.
16:22	antares_	auser: see Lamina and Aleph. Also, Langohr (a sane small RabbitMQ client)
16:22	auser	yeah, by ztellman
16:22	antares_	auser: finally, maybe stuff from http://clojurewerkz.org will give you more ideas
16:22	auser	I'll check those out
16:22	antares_	Raynes: ah, cool
16:23	auser	I suppose I'm curious about crossing the jvm boundaries
16:23	antares_	Raynes: pretty awesome, good Akka integration for Clojure is a missing piece currently
16:23	auser	it'd be nice to have a cluster of jvm machines running different services
16:23	antares_	auser: there is nothing that matches Erlang in this area but I guess remote Akka actors may be all you need
16:23	auser	yeah
16:24	auser	https://github.com/gaverhae/okku is the closest thing I can find to clojure support for akka
16:25	abrooks	In core.logic, is it ever right (is it always wrong) to have a run query inside of a run query? (run* [x] ... (run* [y] ...))
16:25	auser	thanks antares_
16:25	abrooks	I feel like I may want to use core.logic/solutions but see no examples and can't figure out how to use it.
16:26	antares_	auser: I am kinda going in the opposite direction (from Clojure to Erlang) and another thing you should be prepared to miss is gen_fsm. That stuff is brilliant in Erlang and there are no good alternatives in Clojure right now.
16:28	amalloy	abrooks: i don't think that's ever right. run* isn't relational, of course, so you can't do much usefully with it inside another run*
16:28	Sgeo	(-<><:p (+ 1 2) [<> 2 1] [5 <> 7] [9 4 <>]) => '[(3 2 1) (5 3 7) (9 4 3)]
16:28	Sgeo	It makes perfect sense!
16:28	tanzoniteblack	Sgeo: ...sure, why not
16:31	dysinger	auser: yeah just as I suspected I can't use :exposes on private fields
16:31	dysinger	"Caused by: java.lang.IllegalAccessError: tried to access field "
16:32	Sgeo	Woah that seems broken
16:32	Sgeo	Why is it a vector of ... hmm
16:32	Sgeo	Why is it a vector of lists?
16:32	Sgeo	And not a vector of vectors?
16:33	dysinger	in actual Java one would go super().getDeclaredFields()….. and off I'd go using reflection to gain access to the private field
16:34	dysinger	sorry super.getDeclaredFields
16:34	chouser	gen-class creates a subclass, so of course it can't directly touch the private fields of its parent class
16:37	TimMc	dysinger: Are you subclassing Class? :-/
16:37	dysinger	chouser not directly no
16:37	chouser	dysinger: you should be able to use reflection from clojure just as well. You know the class you're inheriting from, and so can reflect on that I'd think...
16:37	dysinger	but I don't think the super classes private field will show up in declared fields
16:37	dysinger	guessing - need to try it next
16:37	chouser	And your method fns get a this paramter, so you can pass that in when needed.
16:38	chouser	yeah, private fields may be trickier. They can probably be renamed by the compiler
16:38	dysinger	yeah I'm looking for this (super this) or something
16:39	chouser	this is the instance. What would (super this) return?
16:39	hiredman	dysinger: I think you are confusing class methods with instance methods
16:39	hiredman	.getDeclaredFields is a method on Class objects
16:40	dysinger	yeah you are correct
16:40	hiredman	so you can just call it on the super classes Class
16:40	TimMc	dysinger: What are you actually trying to accomplish?
16:40	hiredman	and then you need an instance of the class to access the field
16:40	hiredman	luckily the first argument to the functions is "this" which is an instance of its superclass
16:41	dysinger	ah
16:41	dysinger	I need to bang my head more and then come back I guess :)
16:41	chouser	an instance of this class and all its superclasses.
16:42	hiredman	dysinger: you may want to checkout clj-wallhack
16:42	hiredman	https://github.com/arohner/clj-wallhack
16:42	dysinger	k
16:43	hiredman	I don't know that it will make things much simpler, but it gets rid of a lot of reflection boiler plate
16:44	pandeiro	how do i go from line-seq back to a txt file?
16:44	hiredman	so if you know the name of the field you can just do (wall.hack/field SuperClass :foo this)
16:44	dysinger	ack
16:44	dysinger	I was using the code from get-field in the old clojure contrib
16:45	pandeiro	(spit "file.txt" (apply #(str % "\n") my-line-seq)) ?
16:45	dysinger	and I didn't think that (class this) would give me access to the declared fields of the super class.
16:46	nbeloglazov	I'd use inerpose: (->> my-line-seq (interpose "\n") (apply str) (spit "file.txt"))
16:47	dysinger	yeah just as I suspected (-> this class .getDeclaredFields) doesn't expose the super classes declared fields.
16:48	dysinger	trixy
16:48	dysinger	so no concept of super outside proxy-super then
16:49	hiredman	dysinger: yeah, because the class of this is not the super class, if you know the super class (-> SuperClass .getDeclaredFields) will work
16:49	nbeloglazov	dysinger: it's not hard to iterate through all superclasses
16:49	hiredman	or (for [super (supers (class this)) field (.getDeclaredFields super)] [super field])
16:49	dysinger	maybe I can hardcode it
16:50	nbeloglazov	&(doc supers)
16:50	lazybot	⇒ "([class]); Returns the immediate and indirect superclasses and interfaces of c, if any"
16:50	nbeloglazov	nice
16:50	dysinger	ah thanks for the help
16:54	pandeiro	line-seq doesn't use utf-8 by default?
16:54	pandeiro	or is that set when i create the reader?
16:55	llasram	pandeiro: The latter
17:01	solussd	sorry for the tools question, but I'm assuming some people here use counterclockwise-- how do you change the background color of the repl view? a lot of text is unreadable b/c my color theme has a dark background and the repl has a white one. :D
17:04	auser	antares_: there isn't a good fsm?
17:04	auser	that surprises me
17:04	auser	(sorry, lunch)
17:04	antares_	auser: well, there are FSM libraries of various scope but they are not async, for example
17:04	pandeiro	llasram: (io/reader "foo" :encoding "UTF-8") should do it?
17:04	auser	yuck
17:04	auser	not even in akka?
17:05	auser	http://doc.akka.io/docs/akka/snapshot/scala/fsm.html
17:05	auser	that's one reason I'm interested in using akka
17:06	llasram	pandeiro: Should indeed
17:06	pandeiro	weird, maybe emacs/nrepl issue
17:07	llasram	pandeiro: What issue are you experiencing?
17:09	pandeiro	non-ascii chars aren't appearing (at the repl at least) when i try to read a file with line-seq and reader
17:10	antares_	auser: I am not sure about Akka
17:11	llasram	pandeiro: Yeah, sounds like a problem on the output side. You can always do something like (map int string-with-non-ascii) to see integral codepoints
17:13	pandeiro	llasram: (map int ...) shows the chars with values
17:13	llasram	chars with values...?
17:13	llasram	&(map int "I am a string")
17:13	lazybot	⇒ (73 32 97 109 32 97 32 115 116 114 105 110 103)
17:14	pandeiro	,(map int "Télévision")
17:14	clojurebot	(84 65533 65533 108 65533 ...)
17:14	llasram	What's up with that, clojurebot ?
17:15	llasram	&(map int "Télévision")
17:15	lazybot	⇒ (84 233 108 233 118 105 115 105 111 110)
17:15	llasram	Much better, lazybot
17:15	thorbjornDX	what's clojurebot doing?
17:15	pandeiro	&(map int "Television")
17:15	lazybot	⇒ (84 101 108 101 118 105 115 105 111 110)
17:15	pandeiro	ok
17:16	pandeiro	&(apply str (map char (map int "Télévision")))
17:16	lazybot	⇒ "Télévision"
17:16	thorbjornDX	,(apply str (map char (map int "Télévision")))
17:16	clojurebot	"T??l??vision"
17:17	nbeloglazov	,(java.nio.charset.Charset/defaultCharset)
17:17	clojurebot	#<US_ASCII US-ASCII>
17:17	llasram	Ah
17:17	nbeloglazov	&(java.nio.charset.Charset/defaultCharset)
17:17	lazybot	⇒ #<UTF_8 UTF-8>
17:17	thorbjornDX	Ahh
17:17	llasram	clojurebot recognizes that there is one true character encoding, and all others must be truncated to 7 bits
17:17	hiredman	clojurebot: why you no utf8?
17:17	clojurebot	Excuse me?
17:17	pandeiro	maybe my src file isn't UTF-8
17:19	auser	antares_: I would check out akka for it
17:19	auser	for the FSM
17:19	auser	it looks fairly complete
17:20	pandeiro	damn you ISO-8859-1
17:25	antares_	auser: yeah I think they also follow many OTP principles pretty closely
17:25	auser	yeah
17:25	Raynes	yuh
17:27	auser	I'm curious if "storm" is a good enough reason to use clojure instead of scala and just use scala (yuck in terms of syntax)
17:28	antares_	auser: I know people who do basically that. I would not worry so much about the syntax, though. You won't care about it in a week and I think Scala is not bad in that regard.
17:29	auser	yeah… I think you're right… too bad I <3 clojure syntax
17:29	auser	thanks antares_
17:50	mpan	guys, could you please help me with a strange bug? I'm using map and (indirectly) the output of the process has far fewer elements than the input
17:50	mpan	the relevant snippets and repl interactions are pasted to http://pastebin.com/B2Dj9G28 but I'm not sure if there's context that would affect this
17:55	S11001001	mpan: where is get-lines defined?
17:55	nvy	mpan: what about parse-train-lines? (I can't answer your query, but this might be useful for others)
17:56	mpan	get-lines is something that gets a non-lazy seq of strings from the filesystem (domain specific)
17:56	mpan	parse-train-lines is supposed to map 1-to-1
17:56	S11001001	mpan: what kind of non-lazy seq?
17:56	mpan	a list, I believe
17:56	S11001001	mpan: clojure.lang.PersistentList?
17:56	mpan	I just found an exception happening midway
17:57	mpan	and I'm not sure why it was silent about the exception when I was running main
17:57	mpan	like I ran the def, and the def succeeded
17:57	mpan	but in reality, it died halfway to an exception (??)
17:57	S11001001	mpan: loaded-files, you mean?
17:57	mpan	the def for loaded-files
17:57	S11001001	mpan: map is lazy
17:58	mpan	so if it fails, it's silent?
17:58	S11001001	mpan: try dorun instead of count
17:58	mpan	like the function passed to map raised an exception
17:59	S11001001	because ##(first (map #(%) [#(/ 1 1) #(/ 1 2) #(/ 1 0)]))
17:59	lazybot	java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero
18:00	mpan	ah
18:00	mpan	forcing the seq via dorun makes the exception manifest
18:00	S11001001	count is funky
18:01	mpan	why doesn't count hit that same exception, though?
18:01	mpan	and for that matter, why does every other map I called on that seq not hit it?
18:01	mpan	or is that just the semantics of map?
18:01	S11001001	all maps are lazy
18:02	mpan	oh, this also explains why map and println weren't working with each other :(
18:02	gfredericks	mpan: see prn
18:02	S11001001	try prn instead
18:02	mpan	(doc count)
18:02	gfredericks	S11001001: my idea was better
18:02	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns the number of items in the collection. (count nil) returns 0. Also works on strings, arrays, and Java Collections and Maps"
18:02	S11001001	gfredericks: definitely
18:02	mpan	why was count happy with the seq that would produce an exception, though?
18:02	mpan	that part still confuses me
18:03	S11001001	probably no one cares about count
18:03	hyPiRion	$source count
18:03	lazybot	count is http://is.gd/r6IxoX
18:03	gtrak	it isn't though
18:03	gfredericks	clojure.lang.RT/count
18:04	mpan	thank you all so much for helping me find this problem!
18:04	mpan	thank you, although, I'm still very confused why does counting a seq not hit the exception that forcing it would?
18:05	tanzoniteblack	mpan: it's likely it is hitting the exception, it just counts what existed pre-the exception occuring?
18:06	hyPiRion	Well
18:06	tanzoniteblack	~(count (map #(%) [#(/ 1 1) #(/ 1 2) #(/ 1 0)]))
18:06	tanzoniteblack	,(count (map #(%) [#(/ 1 1) #(/ 1 2) #(/ 1 0)]))
18:06	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
18:06	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
18:06	tanzoniteblack	well...there goes that idea
18:06	hyPiRion	,(count (map #(%) [#(/ 0 0)]))
18:06	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
18:06	mpan	I'm just confused why it didn't propagate the exception it encountered
18:07	hyPiRion	,(do (map #(%) [#(/ 0 0)]) nil)
18:07	clojurebot	nil
18:08	mpan	o_O
18:08	mpan	this feels just so strange
18:08	mpan	thank you all for helping me figure it out
18:08	mpan	although, people in the computer lab probably think I'm crazy now
18:09	thorbjornDX	mpan: if people in the computer lab don't think you're crazy something is wrong
18:12	mpan	thorbjornDX: hm??
18:12	lazybot	mpan: Definitely not.
18:12	mpan	lazybot: I thought you're a bot??
18:12	lazybot	mpan: Definitely not.
18:12	mpan	:(
18:13	hyPiRion	&:D
18:13	lazybot	⇒ :D
18:13	thorbjornDX	mpan: Syntax error near &:(
18:13	mpan	turns out, though, ~10 records are malformed
18:13	mpan	and that was the root cause of, well, everything
18:14	Sgeo	Wait, why would you map #(%).... what does that function do... oh, it calls the argument
18:14	ivaraasen	thorbjornDX: I always get looks when I'm using something else than Eclipse or Matlab in our computer labs. "are you playing games, bro?"
18:14	Sgeo	Ah, reason it threw me for a loop is because in haskell, there are no 0 argument functions, they're not needed
18:15	thorbjornDX	ivaraasen: just tell them that you're playing nethack
18:15	hyPiRion	ivaraasen: Haha, people go crazy when I pop up Emacs, even in our computer department.
18:15	hyPiRion	vim and its popularity nowadays
18:15	ivaraasen	thorbjornDX: to be fair, I am mostly playing nethack
18:18	ivaraasen	thorbjornDX: your nick suggests you're Scandinavian. is that correct?
18:19	thorbjornDX	ivaraasen: (/ "danish" 2)
18:21	hyPiRion	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
18:21	thorbjornDX	hyPiRion: I figured someone would call me on it. I want a full stacktrace though
18:22	hyPiRion	meh.
18:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	What's the difference between find and get?
18:22	thorbjornDX	&:)
18:22	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :
18:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	,(doc find)
18:22	clojurebot	"([map key]); Returns the map entry for key, or nil if key not present."
18:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	,(doc get)
18:22	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
18:22	mpan	what's people's usual strategy for when clojure code isn't working as intended?
18:23	gfredericks	get thee to a replee
18:23	thorbjornDX	pppaul is having some problems :(
18:23	hyPiRion	SegFaultAX\|work2: ##((juxt get find) {:foo :bar} :foo)
18:23	lazybot	⇒ [:bar [:foo :bar]]
18:24	thorbjornDX	,(doc juxt)
18:24	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
18:29	Heykl	quit
18:31	mpan	what's non-lazy map called?
18:31	mpan	(for e.g. println purposes)
18:32	dnolen	mpan: 1.5 has reducers, otherwise you need to wrap the lazy seq in a doall.
18:32	mpan	all right, thank you!
18:32	tanzoniteblack	mpan: alternatively, you can use doseq
18:32	tanzoniteblack	,(doseq [x [1 2 3]] (println x))
18:32	clojurebot	1
18:32	mpan	thank you as well!
18:33	clojurebot	2
18:33	clojurebot	3
18:40	mattgordon	(clj-json.core/generate-string {"canceled" 0.0})
18:40	mattgordon	java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: clojure/lang/BigInt (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
18:40	mattgordon	Is that expected? It seems like a bug
18:41	hiredman	clj-json is ancient, use cheshire
18:42	hiredman	mattgordon: you need to upgrade your version of clojure too
18:43	mattgordon	[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]
18:44	mattgordon	hmm I've used clj-json in some other projects but I'll check out cheshire if that is the modern solution
18:46	hiredman	mattgordon: you may have a problem with your dependencies, something pulling in an old version of clojure
18:47	mattgordon	interesting
18:47	hiredman	clojure.lang.BigInt definitely exists in 1.4
19:00	mattgordon	it's a tiny app at the moment so switching to cheshire will be easy. Thanks for the insight and the confirmation that it should "just work" with clj-json and 1.4
19:07	mpan	,(#(%) 100)
19:07	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
19:07	mpan	whoops
19:07	mpan	what's the shorthand for identity fn?
19:08	metellus	,(identity 100)
19:08	clojurebot	100
19:12	Apage43	,(#(do %) 100)
19:12	clojurebot	100
19:12	Apage43	if you're golfing or something
19:14	mpan	ok thanks guys
19:16	hyPiRion	,(#([%]0) 100)
19:16	clojurebot	100
19:17	hyPiRion	,((fn[a]a) 100) ; works too
19:17	clojurebot	100
19:18	metellus	,(#(%1) 100)
19:18	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
19:18	metellus	darn.
19:23	amalloy	aw, + and * both cast to Number, so you can't use them as identity
19:27	duck1123	,(-> 100)
19:27	clojurebot	100
19:27	amalloy	not a function
19:27	duck1123	aww
19:29	metellus	,(pr 100)
19:29	clojurebot	100
19:29	metellus	tada!
19:40	Apage43	,(or 100)
19:40	clojurebot	100
19:40	Apage43	there we go :)
19:41	duck1123	wow. How did no one think of 'or'?
19:47	amalloy	not a function
19:49	arrdem	could you not create a lazy recursive definition of or?
19:49	arrdem	(but yes dang the clojure.core macro or)
19:50	amalloy	arrdem: you couldn't write a function that acts just like the existing macro
19:54	arrdem	why not? It seems equivalent to (fn [ & x ] (loop [f (first x) t (rest x)] (cond f f (nil? t) nil :else (recur (first t) (rest t)))))
19:54	arrdem	,((fn [ & x ] (loop [f (first x) t (rest x)] (cond f f (nil? t) nil :else (recur (first t) (rest t))))) 0 0 0 1)
19:54	clojurebot	0
19:54	dnolen	arrdem: won't work. think about evaluation.
19:55	dnolen	arrdem: it could theoretically be done in Haskell or Smalltalk, but of course it isn't because making your primitive branching constructs work like that destroys performance.
19:58	thorbjornDX	,(doc cond)
19:58	clojurebot	"([& clauses]); Takes a set of test/expr pairs. It evaluates each test one at a time. If a test returns logical true, cond evaluates and returns the value of the corresponding expr and doesn't evaluate any of the other tests or exprs. (cond) returns nil."
19:59	thorbjornDX	arrdem: what's that :else thing doing?
19:59	Sgeo	,(if :else ":else is logically true" ":else is logically false")
19:59	clojurebot	":else is logically true"
20:00	tanzoniteblack	thorbjornDX: :else is a keyword, which always resolves to "true", so it's a condition that will always work
20:00	thorbjornDX	ah, thanks :)
20:00	tanzoniteblack	thorbjornDX: you could just as easily use :whyTheHellNot and it would work...but it's not very idiomatic
20:00	thorbjornDX	oh, so all keywords resolve to true?
20:00	Sgeo	Only nil and false are untruthy
20:00	Sgeo	(if 0 "0 is truthy" "0 is falsey")
20:01	Sgeo	,(if 0 "0 is truthy" "0 is falsey")
20:01	clojurebot	"0 is truthy"
20:01	dnolen	thorbjornDX: Sgeo's point is more important.
20:01	thorbjornDX	I'd ask about 0, but you already answered that. Hmm.
20:02	thorbjornDX	I guess that makes little logical sense
20:02	Sgeo	It's not just Clojure that does it
20:02	amalloy	dnolen: isn't it? i see that haskell's or has type [Bool]->Bool. i can't find the source, which suggests it's native/special somehow, but it does take regular boolean args
20:02	Sgeo	Although, statically typed languages tend to not have that question at all
20:02	Sgeo	Only booleans can be truthy or falsey
20:02	dnolen	thorbjornDX: 0 as false-y is truly awful - as McCarthy says encourages pornographic programming
20:03	thorbjornDX	dnolen: &foo += 1;
20:03	thorbjornDX	man, I haven't written C in a while
20:03	dnolen	amalloy: it's not. the type is fiction - I believe specially handled by the compiler just like Smalltalk, where the messaging syntax is pure fiction.
20:03	tanzoniteblack	dnolen: pornographic programming?
20:03	tanzoniteblack	if I weren't at work, I would go look that up...
20:04	dnolen	tanzoniteblack: look up McCarthy's notes on the history of lisp
20:04	Sgeo	How is the type fiction? It might operate "magically", but it still takes a list of Bools and gives a Bool
20:04	Sgeo	if/then/else is syntax, but a lot of people dislike that
20:05	Sgeo	And you can write a function instead (similarly to Smalltalk)
20:05	dnolen	Sgeo: the semantics are preserved - but it's a fiction because you can't make a if in either language that actually delivers the performance that those constructs magically have.
20:06	Sgeo	amalloy, or can be defined in terms of other functions: <Sgeo> @src or
20:06	Sgeo	<lambdabot> or = foldr (\|\|) False
20:06	amalloy	obviously
20:06	Sgeo	I think I still have some trouble wrapping my mind around folds :/
20:07	mattmoss	(or (and 0 "truthy") "falsey")
20:07	mattmoss	,(or (and 0 "truthy") "falsey")
20:07	clojurebot	"truthy"
20:07	mattmoss	,(or (and nil "truthy") "falsey")
20:07	clojurebot	"falsey"
20:08	dnolen	the previous point is also why macros are still the bees knees from an engineering perspective - sometimes its useful to get the performance of the fundamental languages constructs w/ mucking around with a UI as terrible as an AST.
20:08	mattmoss	,(str (or nil :horsey) :sauce)
20:08	clojurebot	":horsey:sauce"
20:09	Sgeo	,(letfn [(truthy [val] (if val :truthy :falsey))] (map truthy [false nil 0 "" '() () (list)]))
20:09	clojurebot	(:falsey :falsey :truthy :truthy :truthy ...)
20:09	Sgeo	Is letfn often used where where is used in Haskell?
20:09	amalloy	not really
20:10	Sgeo	Hm :/
20:10	thorbjornDX	Sgeo: thanks for that clarification
20:10	Sgeo	thorbjornDX, you're welcome
20:11	thorbjornDX	&(letfn [(truthy [val] (if val :truthy :falsey))] (map truthy [false nil 0 "" '() () (list)]))
20:11	lazybot	⇒ (:falsey :falsey :truthy :truthy :truthy :truthy :truthy)
20:11	antares_	Langohr 1.0.0-beta4 is out: https://github.com/michaelklishin/langohr/blob/master/ChangeLog.md
20:12	Sgeo	,(map class () '())
20:12	clojurebot	()
20:12	Sgeo	?
20:12	Sgeo	,(map class () '() (list))
20:12	clojurebot	()
20:12	Sgeo	Oh, hmm
20:12	Sgeo	,(map class [() '() (list)])
20:12	clojurebot	(clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList)
20:15	jkdufair	i have a web app with a collection of domain functions that will depend on the ring session. does anyone recommend a strategy to develop these to keep the coupling loose between my app domain functions and ring?
20:18	Sgeo	What's the rationale for condp's predicate's first argument being the case and second argument being provided just once?
20:18	Sgeo	(As opposed to the other way around)
20:18	Sgeo	I know that it's one or the other, but any reason for that choice in particular?
20:20	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Think about this:
20:21	ohpauleez	(condp = (class x) String :string Integer :integer)
20:21	ohpauleez	that reads pretty easy
20:21	ohpauleez	if they were swapped, it looks like you messed up the s-expr
20:21	Sgeo	Uh, = is symmetric, isn't it?
20:22	casion	ohpauleez: I asked the same question as Sgeo last week, and your response made a lot of sense, thanks
20:22	ohpauleez	casion: No problem!
20:22	Sgeo	How does that example clarify anything?
20:23	Sgeo	Hmm, maybe I misexplained my question
20:23	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Let's say we write condpp, the version you're proposing. How would the line above look in condpp?
20:23	Sgeo	(condp = (class x) String :string Integer :integer)
20:23	ohpauleez	maybe a concrete example will help clear up the question and answer
20:24	Sgeo	,(doc some)
20:24	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
20:25	Sgeo	(condp #(some %2 %1) [1 2 3 4] #{0 6 7} :>> inc #{4 5 9} :>> dec)
20:25	Sgeo	(Taking from the Clojuredoc example, how that would need to be rewritten, I think
20:26	Sgeo	That is, the rationale for "For each clause, (pred test-expr expr) is evaluated."
20:26	Sgeo	Over (pred expr test-expr)
20:29	ohpauleez	Sgeo: If you swapped the order, the layout of condp makes less sense, when you think about what's really happening with the code
20:30	Sgeo	Hmm, how so?
20:30	aperiodic	i think it's mainly for comparisons
20:30	aperiodic	,(condp > 0 -1 :negative 1 :positive)
20:30	clojurebot	:positive
20:30	ohpauleez	the condp form is laid out (pred test-expr expr)
20:30	ohpauleez	and you read it that way
20:31	ohpauleez	if you're looking to match seqs, I'd use a straight cond or case
20:32	casion	I think the use of 'some' on clojuredoc makes the intended use confusing
20:32	ohpauleez	agreed
20:32	Sgeo	I think I've written Haskell code where I wished I had condp
20:33	Sgeo	But I don't remember it in any detail
20:33	casion	also, that damn :>> keyword...
20:33	ohpauleez	agreed, again
20:33	ohpauleez	to me, it's an abuse of a language construct as syntax
20:34	ohpauleez	so I tend to avoid that use of condp
20:34	ohpauleez	but nonetheless, super powerful
20:39	Frozenlo`	Eh.. I've forgotten how to require a cljs subclass. I'm pretty sure (:require [goog.ui.DatePicker :as dp]) is wrong.
20:41	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: that looks right to me
20:42	ohpauleez	but if you're going to instantiate an object, you need to use the full path
20:42	Frozenlock	Really? Emacs adds a weird color after the goog.ui
20:42	ohpauleez	(:require [goog.pubsub.PubSub :as pubsub])
20:42	ohpauleez	….
20:42	ohpauleez	(extend-type goog.pubsub.PubSub ...)
20:43	Frozenlock	Then I'll continue as I were, thank you :)
20:43	ohpauleez	also note that Closure lib is split into two different organization techniques
20:44	ohpauleez	older stuff, the path name endpoint is not the object name. In the newer stuff (like pubsub) it is
20:44	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: totally welcome
20:45	Sgeo	Lamina pipelines remind me of monads
20:45	Sgeo	Everything reminds me of monads
20:45	Sgeo	Hmm, I might be wrong
20:45	n00b6502	whats a lamina pipeline
20:45	Sgeo	https://github.com/ztellman/lamina/wiki/Pipelines-New
20:47	gf3	sjl: yt?
20:48	Sgeo	Oh right, I raged in infinite fury when I saw Lamina's map*
20:49	amalloy	$mail seancorfield i don't know if you get notifications on data.priority-map jira issues, since engelberg seems to be the nominal project lead, but it looks like you're the one doing any actual work. so, please take a look at http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/DPRIMAP-1 when you have a moment
20:49	lazybot	Message saved.
20:50	Sgeo	Oh hey cool I can use $mail for stuff
21:21	unlink	I wish there was a version of (partial ...) that partially applied the arguments after the first
21:22	unlink	like (partial2 assoc :key "val")
21:22	technomancy	rpartial would be tops
21:23	TimMc	technomancy: Do you often find yourself wanting rpartial where you omit more than 1 leading argument?
21:24	unlink	I basically only want to omit the 2nd arg. Is rpartial in some library?
21:25	gfredericks	might be in useful
21:25	unlink	Is that intended to mean "reverse partial"? i.e. (rpartial assoc "val" :key)?
21:25	gfredericks	rest partial maybe
21:25	TimMc	Maybe rpartial could be done as a conjugation of partial and something that applies the reverse of its restargs to its first argument.
21:25	tmciver	unlink: how about (defn delegate [f &args] #(apply f % args))? (Saw this in cgrand's moustache)
21:26	unlink	Yeah, I mean I could write it easily enough, but I don't want to be in the business of creating general utility functions.
21:26	TimMc	unlink: :-(
21:26	TimMc	Someone's gotta write 'em!
21:26	gfredericks	over and over again
21:26	gfredericks	in each project
21:26	unlink	Well writing them is easy, justifying them as idiomatic basic Clojure is hard.
21:31	unlink	The issue is that -> wants you to curry the 2nd parameter, but partial wants you to curry the last parameter. Most clojure functions agree with ->, but there is no analog to partial for the first idiom.
21:33	antares_	anybody else seeing exceptions with code that does not use :only/:refer after https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/ec802664760d160c325323e999778ffd7b13e22c ?
21:35	Apage43	antares_: what'
21:35	Apage43	s the code?
21:35	amalloy	&(keys nil)
21:35	lazybot	⇒ nil
21:35	antares_	Apage43: I am still tracking it down but apparently some nses that do not even have :use in them now fail to compile
21:35	antares_	tracking it down by commenting things out :/
21:36	Apage43	ah
21:36	amalloy	antares_: at a glance, i think that commit would cause an exception if you (:use some-ns) where some-ns does not define any public functions
21:36	antares_	amalloy: yeah
21:36	antares_	I have a couple of such ns-es
21:36	antares_	they only extend protocol
21:36	antares_	protocols
21:36	amalloy	nod time for a jira ticket, sounds like
21:37	antares_	https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/clojure/monger/json.clj
21:39	antares_	amalloy: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-1062
21:40	amalloy	antares_: it doesn't break compilation of those namespaces, it breaks requiring of such namespaces from a separate ns clause
21:40	antares_	amalloy: hm, yeah
21:40	amalloy	anyway, i'd suggest including at least a failing test, and preferably a patch, which would be easy
21:41	antares_	amalloy: I haven't mailed my CLA
21:41	wmealing_	amalloy: had some issues with lazybot last night, doesn't work well at all without mongo setup
21:41	antares_	I will include a test but monger's code is a good test
21:41	wmealing_	it'll join channels, but the go mute
21:41	amalloy	wmealing_: indeed, he assumes mongo
21:41	amalloy	or at least, a number of his plugins do
21:49	antares_	amalloy: https://github.com/michaelklishin/clj1062
21:50	amalloy	antares_: it probably also works if you (:require clj1062.core), right? :use isn't good since someone might be inclined to say "well don't do a bare-use, silly"
21:51	antares_	amalloy: I'd need to try
21:52	antares_	amalloy: but then there are nses like https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/clojure/monger/operators.clj
21:53	antares_	it makes sense to :use monger.operators
21:55	amalloy	so? that namespace isn't empty, so it works fine
21:55	antares_	amalloy: as far as I can see, it does not
21:56	antares_	amalloy: you are right
21:56	antares_	oh well, I can't even edit my ticket to lower the severity
21:56	antares_	lovely JIRA
21:58	devn	jira is an ugly thing
21:58	devn	Thing(tm)
21:59	devn	CVS + Jira -> The Future
22:00	Frozenlock	Oh what fresh hell is this
22:00	Frozenlock	My cljs repl broke :(
22:01	ohpauleez	Frozenlock, you're almost always better off not using the cljs repl
22:01	devn	Andy Fingerhut has done such a wonderful job of getting the rest of the community involved with his patch update emails, but apparently no one realizes the source of the problem JIRA
22:01	Frozenlock	I have only two lines in my .cljs: (repl/connect "http://localhost:9000/repl") (dom/log "Hello, world!"). Yet the console shows me "Uncaught TypeError: Cannot call method 'appendChild' of null"
22:01	ohpauleez	after all, you're just writing real Clojure code, so a standard repl should be fine.
22:02	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: Where are you getting `dom` from?
22:02	Frozenlock	(:require [clojure.browser.repl :as repl]
22:02	Frozenlock	[clojure.browser.dom :as dom]))
22:02	Frozenlock
22:02	Frozenlock	ohpauleez: I interact with the browser, so I don't see how I could do it in the java repl
22:02	antares_	devn: I don't know Andy but I don't think I've seen anything on the clojure mailing list
22:03	antares_	devn: where does that involvement happen? clojure-dev? that's a closed playground for cool kids, we mere mortals don't go there
22:03	ohpauleez	Are you sure you don't just want to us (js/console.log …)?
22:03	Frozenlock	Isn't it the same thing?
22:03	devn	antares_: don't believe the hype. people are welcome, I promise.
22:03	devn	you know, like, regular people
22:04	xeqi	antares_: yep, weekly clojure-dev
22:04	xeqi	I lurk
22:04	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: There are only two cases where I've found the cljs-repl a clear advantage over just letting cljsbuild auto kick off another version for me - Debugging an exception, and tweaking some dom work
22:04	devn	it doesn't change the fact that everything is mired in enterprise-levelish process
22:05	Frozenlock	ohpauleez: Perhaps one day... but I still lack the javascript/dom experience to know what I'm doing :P
22:05	technomancy	trufacts: from 2005 to 2010, Jira emailed passwords in plaintext upon signup.
22:05	Frozenlock	So I need to test everything
22:05	antares_	devn: no hype, just my own experience
22:06	ohpauleez	Frozenlock: see what dom/log is a value of. My guess is it's null. Usually if you want to log something, you should do js/console.log, not dom/log
22:06	ohpauleez	Also, you might checkout out the Shoreleave core and Shoreleave browser stuff
22:06	ohpauleez	it might ease some of your CLJS woes
22:06	devn	technomancy: yeesh
22:06	ohpauleez	(shameless plug)
22:06	dnolen_	ohpauleez: not following the conversation closely but (js/console.log ...) is not really valid ;)
22:06	Frozenlock	Yeah I'm looking at the source now, should find if dom/log is the same thing.
22:06	devn	technomancy: what's the most recent reason for keeping clojure stuff on jira?
22:06	dnolen_	ohpauleez: and I disagree about the REPL when I have used it I use it a lot.
22:07	devn	technomancy: i ask you because you've been fighting the good fight for quite some time if memory serves
22:07	technomancy	devn: tempted to ask why you think reason comes into it
22:07	antares_	devn: I tried joining that ML only to be told that I can't because I did not mail a piece of paper to North Carolina, across 8 time zones. My choices are: 1) Use a non-reliable Russian mail, 2) Pay $100+ for fedex or similar. To join a mailing list and contribute a patch to this wonderful language. I say no, we are not in the 17th century.
22:07	ohpauleez	dnolen_: In what context do you find the REPL the most useful?
22:07	Frozenlock	(defn log [& args]
22:07	Frozenlock	(.log js/console (apply pr-str args)))
22:07	technomancy	devn: that'd be antares_ fighting the good fight
22:07	technomancy	me, I bend my principles sometimes
22:08	antares_	devn: and in 1) I will have to wait for literally weeks. Nope, real people don't make contributors go through that shit. See how travis-ci.org is managed.
22:08	dnolen_	ohpauleez: I always use the REPL when writing code - though I know some people have differently dev styles.
22:08	ohpauleez	I really only use it for debugging and dom work. Everything else I want to evaluate, I just do in a standard Clojure REPL. Very rarely do I care about building up an environment in the REPL
22:08	ohpauleez	dnolen_: I use the repl constantly
22:08	ohpauleez	just not the cljs repl
22:08	clojurebot	reply is the new high-powered repl that powers lein2's repl task https://github.com/trptcolin/reply
22:08	dnolen_	ohpauleez: I see what you mean, you just code against the CLJ repl since the lang is more or less the same.
22:08	ohpauleez	environment in the browser-repl**
22:09	devn	technomancy: surely there must be some reason. honestly, there isn't?
22:09	technomancy	devn: "because I said so"?
22:09	ohpauleez	dnolen_: yeah, unless I'm doing something browser specific, or there's a bug in my CLJS app and I want to poke around
22:09	devn	antares_: sorry to hear about your troubles. that's most uncool IMO.
22:09	dnolen_	ohpauleez: that's actually nice to hear! that the language is not significantly different enough for you to bother!
22:10	ohpauleez	just protocols and maps :)
22:10	xeqi	$seen kingtim
22:10	lazybot	kingtim was last seen quitting 1 day and 2 hours ago.
22:11	technomancy	to be fair, "because I said so" is often reasonable
22:11	antares_	amalloy: thanks for finding the root cause so quickly, I now have a passing build again
22:11	TimMc	xeqi: Try $mail
22:12	antares_	technomancy: I agree but having a separate mailing list that people like me cannot even read (without going to the site every day) is not reasonable
22:12	devn	technomancy: i don't disagree tbh. I don't think about it every waking moment of my life, but I've heard the same stories from tens of would-be contributors. Something is wrong here.
22:12	TimMc	antares_: I, on the other hand, did sign the CA -- but I still don't feel that I can contribute code.
22:12	xeqi	TimMc: sure, or just make my pull request I was gonna ask about
22:13	technomancy	antares_: absolutely agreed, though the shortcomings of google groups are different from the shortcomings of jira.
22:13	devn	I signed a CA and then I spent hours trying to figure out if any of the time I spent figuring out the process was worth it. I'm still scratching my head.
22:13	antares_	technomancy: but it has nothing to do with the mailing list
22:13	antares_	it has to do with some people believe in their process so much they ignore people who want to contribute. And I am not an über hacker but clojurewerkz.org suggests I am pretty involved in the community to not be totally ignored.
22:14	ohpauleez	devn: It has to do with how Clojure is licensed and it's possible paths in the future
22:14	antares_	devn nails it, CVS + Jira = The Future
22:14	antares_	why does clojure even use git
22:14	ohpauleez	its**
22:14	TimMc	ohpauleez: I really have to reject that argument. There are many paths to that.
22:14	dnolen_	antares_: I think there's far too much going on in the Clojure world these days to attribute it to maliciousness at this point.
22:14	devn	I wonder that sometimes as well antares_: "Type your patch out and mail us a copy!"
22:15	dnolen_	antares_: but if you're heavily invested - CA is a small barrier. They're pretty responsive once they have it.
22:15	TimMc	dnolen_: Maliciousness, no -- apathy, then? Perhaps underestimation of the effect on morale?
22:15	technomancy	antares_: it's a mess, but I've pretty much given up caring.
22:15	ohpauleez	TimMc: To aid in corporate adoption and corporations embedding Clojure into larger systems (much like Datomic), they go through a serious vetting process. To ensure nothing holds Clojure as a language back, the CA is a small price to pay
22:16	dnolen_	TimMc: not even apathy. Just being too busy. I'm not saying I like it. But unless they starting making money from supporting Clojure I don't see it changing.
22:16	technomancy	just better to do apply effort in places where you can make a difference without a huge fight
22:16	TimMc	ohpauleez: I'm not talking about the CA alone -- lack of pull requests is pretty bad.
22:16	devn	dnolen_: but people do make money supporting Clojure.
22:16	antares_	dnolen_: I don't know what to say. I am watching clojure.data.json being rewritten in a way that my libraries won't be able to support and I don't have anything to say because the discussion happens on the mailing list I cannot join, I cannot contribute any changes and my comments on github are ignored.
22:17	mpan	is it a bad idea to have circular requires?
22:17	dnolen_	devn: going through patches is crazy amounts of work. As far as I can tell in the past 6 months I'm the only one that does any serious amount of ticket reviewing.
22:17	antares_	dnolen_: what can that be attributed to?
22:17	TimMc	dnolen_: Right, the understaffing/bottleneck is probably the core issue.
22:17	technomancy	it took about six months for :require/:refer to get merged even though I had in-person verbal agreement that my idea and approach were a good idea.
22:17	dnolen_	on CLJS specifically.
22:17	technomancy	(it was about ten lines)
22:17	TimMc	mpan: A terrible idea, and it won't even work. :-)
22:18	mpan	:/ the alternative is making factories, essentially
22:18	ohpauleez	TimMc: It is what it is. Clojure is serious project with serious goals. In my opinion, it's worth taking precautions. I don't want to see Clojure end up in some bs lawsuit because of a single pull-request.
22:18	TimMc	technomancy: I'm still not sure if anyone has even looked at my unsigned-bit-shift-right JIRA ticket.
22:18	dnolen_	technomancy: line count doesn't really mean much. I've seen shorter ones for CLJS - sometimes it just needs stewing, testing, alternate approaches etc.
22:18	technomancy	dnolen_: we discussed it thoroughly in person at the conj
22:18	ohpauleez	We should set up some alternative/fund/help for special cases
22:19	ohpauleez	also, dnolen_ is a ticket reviewing champ and deserves a round of beers
22:19	devn	dnolen_: I'm not conerned with speed. I'm concerned with would-be contributors who feel put out by the weird process that's currently set up.
22:19	technomancy	ohpauleez: you can't prevent frivolous lawsuits with policies
22:19	ohpauleez	like… five…. seven rounds of beers
22:19	technomancy	the EPL already has a solid patent protection clause
22:19	dnolen_	technomancy: still might need stewing even after that. changing ns isn't a small change. the repercussions of ns will expand for years better or wrose.
22:19	TimMc	ohpauleez: Explain to me how a fraudulent pull request could even happen -- and more plausibly than a JIRA break-in.
22:20	antares_	ohpauleez: sorry but do you realize that there are MUCH more serious projects out there (OpenJDK, Eclipse Foundation) that have contributor agreement process that takes 10 minutes to go through? you just email a PDF, done.
22:20	technomancy	dnolen_: it's not like there was any discussion once the patch was submitted though
22:20	TimMc	I could maybe spoof your email address and submit a patch that way.
22:20	ohpauleez	antares_: I'm totally ok with a signed PDF - I don't think the mail pieces is necessary
22:20	antares_	ohpauleez: I had to submit a patch to Neo4j not so long ago. It took 5 minutes to email the PDF and less than 1 hour for them to confirm it to me. Done.
22:20	hoover_damm	antares_, using echosign for example
22:20	dnolen_	technomancy: sure, but other changes waited even longer - numerics - 1.5 years?
22:20	antares_	ohpauleez: for Clojure, it is!
22:20	ohpauleez	sure, that's not what I'm arguing
22:21	technomancy	scala's CA uses oauth
22:21	ohpauleez	I'm saying the CA is necessary
22:21	ohpauleez	I don't care how it works
22:21	antares_	ohpauleez: I don't argue with the need for CA
22:21	antares_	just with the entire process that shuts people out every months
22:21	antares_	*month
22:21	ohpauleez	just the need to mail the physical copy
22:21	ohpauleez	sure
22:22	hoover_damm	next time someone complains about the opscode cla... i'm going to point them to the clojure CA
22:23	dnolen_	devn: I'm not convinced there's a real barrier.
22:24	ohpauleez	TimMc: Here's what can happen without a CA: Some Comcast employee tries out Clojure. They love it. He contributes a patch without his bosses approval on company time. Comcast corporate finds out and says, "No, this employee doesn't have the right to relinquish corporate copyright. Remove the patch. Once removed, no one who has seen the patch code can resubmit the patch, it must be clean-roomed with no influence. If not, Comc
22:24	ohpauleez	would pounce on that
22:25	dnolen_	TimMc: pull requests suck
22:25	technomancy	haha
22:25	technomancy	ohpauleez: though signing a CA doesn't prevent someone from submitting patches for which they don't own copyright
22:26	TimMc	ohpauleez: And that requires a physical piece of paper?
22:26	dnolen_	technomancy: well not for every project - but we've already talked about that.
22:26	TimMc	I can commit perjury electronically, why not sign a CA electronically?
22:26	technomancy	ohpauleez: it's not like signing paperwork makes it more illegal
22:26	antares_	dnolen_: are you serious about pull requests?
22:27	ohpauleez	technomancy: The CA prevents Comcast from being able to make that request, yes. TimMc: I don't think the CA needs to be mailed, I just think it needs to be in there
22:27	TimMc	I'm not actually arguing about CAs in the abstract.
22:27	TimMc	What I'm saying is: 1) They do not need to be physical, and 2) they should not block access to reading a maiing list.
22:27	xeqi	ohpauleez: really? I would think Comcast would still be able to do it, they didn't sign the CA and own the copyright
22:29	technomancy	I'm sure Comcast would have an easy time disavowing the actions of a rogue employee.
22:30	dnolen_	antares_: for ClojureScript, core.logic, core.match yes.
22:30	antares_	dnolen_: why?
22:30	dnolen_	antares_: many tickets involve multiple reviews, multiple patches you want that history.
22:30	antares_	dnolen_: are JIRA patches good for CLJS, core.logic, core.match?
22:30	dnolen_	antares_: eys
22:30	dnolen_	oop yes
22:31	antares_	dnolen_: and how do you not have history with pull requests?
22:31	dnolen_	antares_: they aren't JIRA patches, they are just patches.
22:31	antares_	they can be updated, github shows you full history + comments
22:31	dnolen_	antares_: does a pull request have every pull request in it?
22:31	TheBusby	Raynes: there?
22:31	dnolen_	like I want you to modify it?
22:31	antares_	dnolen_: yes, I just push a few more commits to the same branch and you have them all in the pull request
22:31	antares_	visible, commentable
22:31	antares_	that's how we develop travis-ci.org
22:32	dnolen_	antares_: what if I want them squashed?
22:32	antares_	submit a PR, people comment, you update it a few times
22:32	technomancy	or if the approach turns out to be wrong, it's trivial to link from one pull request to another
22:32	antares_	dnolen_: then you say so and I squash and merge it (not via UI, but still)
22:32	dnolen_	technomancy: an follow a bunch of links for one conversation
22:32	dnolen_	antares_: technomancy: pull request are fine, but they are not "awesome"
22:32	antares_	dnolen_: but we probably have squashed only 2 PRs in 1.5 years of development
22:32	antares_	dnolen_: and unlike patches, we have CI integration for pull requests
22:33	technomancy	dnolen_: compared to "attach a patch to a jira issue", they are amazing.
22:33	antares_	each push in a PR results in a build
22:33	antares_	and trivial issues like doc corrections or other trivial things are 2 weeks of work
22:33	antares_	someone found an issue, reported it, submitted a PR, someone merges it, done
22:34	Sgeo	Hmm, if I make a patch for assoc-in to use loop/recur, does it have a reasonable chance of making it in?
22:34	antares_	neo4j uses both CA and pull requests
22:34	antares_	seems to work for them
22:34	dnolen_	technomancy: for you're definition of "awesome", OK
22:34	Sgeo	Even if it solves a problem that people might not have?
22:34	dnolen_	antares_: I get patches from people of varying levels of familiarity with git, Clojure ticket process etc.
22:34	antares_	dnolen_: sounds like clojure/core is optimizing for 1% of the cases
22:34	antares_	completely alienating the 99%
22:34	dnolen_	antares_: people come and go, people forget stuff
22:35	antares_	dnolen_: face it, most of active contributors are the same small group of people
22:35	antares_	for CLJS this is certainly true according to the log
22:35	dnolen_	antares_: probably 20-30% of patches are worth amending.
22:35	antares_	and they probably have no problem with git
22:35	dnolen_	antares_: no
22:35	technomancy	nobody understands the Clojure ticket processes
22:35	dnolen_	antares_: they come and they go.
22:35	technomancy	except _possibly_ Andy Fingerhut
22:35	dnolen_	haha
22:35	Sgeo	Who's Andy Fingerhut?
22:36	technomancy	The Man who Conquered Jira
22:36	technomancy	or possibly The Man who Jira Tricked into Thinking He Had Won, only to be Torn to Pieces once His Guard Was Down
22:36	technomancy	only time will tell
22:36	antares_	dnolen_: this graph suggests something different https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/graphs/impact
22:37	antares_	dnolen_: I don't know, alienating 70% for the joy of reviews of a few people sounds a little odd to me
22:37	ohpauleez	technomancy: "The Man who Conquered Jira" is cracking me up
22:37	antares_	and I am not the most friendly agreeable maintainer out there, for sure
22:37	dnolen_	antares_: core.logic & core.match are projects that few people understand the implementation of - I'm not expecting much there ... yet
22:38	ohpauleez	antares_: That was the point I was going to make ^
22:38	dnolen_	antares_: this graph is quite different, https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/graphs/impact
22:38	antares_	dnolen_: ok, for CLJS, fair enough. I applaud the patience of CLJS contributors.
22:38	ohpauleez	case in point - Brandon Bloom is relatively new to Clojure and CLJS. He came along, found a few things he wanted, made tickets with patches - done.
22:39	antares_	I am curious how the CA stuff and all will go if someone wants to fork Clojure
22:39	antares_	rename it, keep the license, scrap JIRA and patches and just use github, like normal projects do
22:39	technomancy	antares_: it'll play out like xemacs; patches can flow only in the direction of the fork, but not back
22:40	antares_	technomancy: I mean, it will have to be renamed, what else? no use of the same logo. Anything else serious?
22:40	technomancy	granted xemacs is basically dead now, but only because they made GNU open up their development policies
22:41	dnolen_	antares_: I can't imagine it would last very long or generate much interest.
22:41	antares_	dnolen_: I don't know. You know, if the maintainer will actually document things and make contributors welcome.
22:41	ohpauleez	antares_: That reality would almost never happen. The would assume the momentum of people hating the CA and contrib process was greater than the momentum of the adoption of the language itself
22:42	dnolen_	antares_: for your version of "document things" and "make contributors welcome"
22:42	antares_	ohpauleez: the language will very much stay the same
22:42	antares_	dnolen_: for most of Clojure developers' version
22:42	ohpauleez	Assuming you have a CA in, there is absolutely no trouble getting changes in or suggesting something new
22:42	antares_	dnolen_: cause you know, only clojure.core argues that the process is pleasant
22:42	technomancy	ohpauleez: seriously?
22:42	ohpauleez	technomancy: yes, for real
22:43	technomancy	it sounds like you have been very lucky
22:43	amalloy	ohpauleez: are you talking about clojure, or some other language?
22:43	technomancy	or perhaps you work for Relevance?
22:43	antares_	dnolen_: seriously, this conversation make me believe that clojure/core really sees no problem with how alienating the process is for anyone who has contributed to Scala, JRuby, Groovy, JVM ecosystem tools
22:43	xeqi	I thought the weekly emails started because there were patches that were languishing
22:43	ohpauleez	the process is this: Propose the idea on the dev list, see if there's interest, make page on Jira, make a reference implementation and ticket, wait
22:44	ohpauleez	how is any of that hard
22:44	amalloy	ohpauleez: the "wait" step is hard, because it's non-terminating
22:44	antares_	ohpauleez: on any step of the way, your chances of being ignored are non-trivial
22:44	amalloy	the past month or so it's actually been a lot better, but i still have patches sitting around for over a year
22:45	antares_	dnolen_: because things are better understood in comparison, and many potential Clojure contributors actually have something to compare the process with
22:45	ohpauleez	amalloy: So let's solve the real problem then - getting patches screened and applied
22:45	dnolen_	antares_: I'm confused about which part you think can be improved. pull requests are a bit of red herring. rhickey needs approve everything anyhow.
22:45	technomancy	ohpauleez: you and I can't solve that problem
22:45	antares_	dnolen_: the entire thing
22:45	technomancy	everything needs the approval of one person
22:45	antares_	dnolen_: the "we know better" part
22:46	technomancy	there's no delegation happening
22:46	antares_	dnolen_: the "submit a patch and wait for 11 months" part
22:46	antares_	dnolen_: the "oh that effort won't go very far" when a fork discussion comes up
22:46	devn	speed is not the issue in my opinion
22:46	dnolen_	antares_: so you would prefer that patches that aren't going to move forward get rejected outright immediately?
22:46	antares_	dnolen_: the "pull requests suck" part when the majority of OSS uses them and likes them
22:46	amalloy	technomancy: andy's done a good job with improving it. you or i could have done it (not to belittle his effort; i'm just saying it's not something you have to be rhickey to improve)
22:46	dnolen_	antares_: you like generalizations :)
22:46	ohpauleez	devn: what's your major issue?
22:46	antares_	dnolen_: for sure. Not giving people hope is better than asking them to wait for 11 months.
22:47	technomancy	ohpauleez: two times I've submitted patches with close collaboration by people who wrote an existing lib that got promoted into clojure itself (clojure.test and clojure.main) with their full approval; each time it was ~6 months before discussion on getting it applied even started
22:47	Raynes	TheBusby: Huh?
22:47	ohpauleez	amalloy: I agree, Andy has done an awesome job
22:47	TheBusby	Raynes: had a lazybot question
22:47	Raynes	Oh.
22:47	Raynes	Sure, shoot.
22:47	dnolen_	amalloy: agreed about Andy's work
22:47	Raynes	You've got 6 seconds.
22:47	Raynes	;)
22:47	Sgeo	I guess a small implementation change like fixing assoc-in will take forever or just get ignored
22:47	antares_	dnolen_: no, I think I am just involved in quite a few project other than clojurewerkz.org. travis-ci.org exposes me to thousands of projects, 14 ecosystems, hundreds of people I help in #travis every week.
22:48	amalloy	Sgeo: write the patch first. you'll find you can't (usefully) make assoc-in tail-recursive
22:48	TheBusby	adding a ton of plugins, but for some like twitter/yammer/etc they need to output with no specific trigger
22:48	antares_	dnolen_: they LOVE pull requests. Nobody has asked us to adopt JIRA, CA and patches.
22:48	TheBusby	Raynes: so when a tracker twitter account posts, lazybot just dumps the post into the channel without prompting
22:48	antares_	dnolen_: nobody suggested using the Ivory Tower model. And in the Clojure world? Quite a few prominent people told me they don't really like the process.
22:48	ohpauleez	technomancy: So your proposal is that we add more gate-keepers? Or something else?
22:48	antares_	they just don't want to talk about it here because they feel like giving up
22:49	Raynes	TheBusby: Look at the Github plugin. We do that there.
22:49	technomancy	ohpauleez: I think it's crazy that you could have a library accepted into clojure and then lose the ability to make bug fixes to it.
22:49	TheBusby	Raynes: perfect, that's just what I needed to hear! Thank you again for the software and help
22:49	Raynes	TheBusby: Consider contributing the yammer plugin. I'd be interested in seeing it.
22:49	antares_	dnolen_: maybe that speaks loud enough to consider. The OSS community widely uses pull requests and a significantly more open, respectful process
22:49	ohpauleez	technomancy: I totally agree - but what are you proposing we do to adjust the current flow?
22:50	ohpauleez	I wonder if david nolen has turned off his speakers/headphones or shut off ping yet
22:50	antares_	ohpauleez: drop the stupid piece of paper requirement, accept PDF CAs. Reject patches that The Elders don't like without asking people to wait. Discuss things on a list that everybody can join.
22:51	technomancy	ohpauleez: I'm not proposing anything; I've become convinced that the people with the authority to improve it aren't interested in doing so, and it's not worth my effort to push it right now when I could be working on things that actually make a difference.
22:51	TheBusby	Raynes: forked and pushed the youtube plugin to github last night, need to clean up the other plugins though http://bit.ly/NTqJFR
22:51	ohpauleez	antares_: Are you going to the conj?
22:51	dnolen_	antares_: sounds like it's time for you to sign your CA and voice your opinion on clojure-dev ;)
22:51	technomancy	I just think it's weird that there are other people outside /core that don't find it frustrating and broken.
22:51	ohpauleez	I was JUST about to say that
22:51	antares_	ohpauleez: in fact, eliminate the entire clojure/core notion. Let x10 as many people cast their votes.
22:52	antares_	I am not convinced a group of Relevance employees are the best engineers on the planet
22:52	antares_	Rich Hickey's last word is reasonable
22:52	ohpauleez	antares_: core is only a business entity, they are not dev
22:52	antares_	ohpauleez: I don't. I live on the other side of the world.
22:52	antares_	ohpauleez: they are the gatekeepers
22:52	ohpauleez	they just help out by admin'ing jira and the mailing list
22:52	antares_	however they are called this week
22:53	antares_	dnolen_: they whole notion that I need to mail a CA to suggest something is stupid
22:53	antares_	dnolen_: limiting, shortsighted
22:53	antares_	I don't know any other popular OSS project that is a few years old that uses it
22:53	Raynes	I had this argument a long time ago.
22:53	devn	ohpauleez: i don't have a "major" issue. I think the current situation discourages some would-be maintainers and community-building-type people, but it really depends on what kind of patches we're talking about.
22:54	technomancy	Raynes: then you became cynical and bitter like me? =)
22:54	Raynes	I was mostly called shortsighted myself and I just gave up, antares_.
22:54	antares_	Scala does not, JRuby does not, NoSQL data stores do not, Kotlin does not
22:54	Raynes	technomancy: Yeah, actually. I think I might have. :\
22:54	ohpauleez	devn: I definitely agree with that. It's hard to adjust the system for different levels of involvement and patches
22:54	devn	ohpauleez: I think there's value in it being baroque, ugly process
22:54	devn	but in other worths I think it's abhorrent
22:55	devn	s/worths/ways
22:55	TimMc	What if antares_ secretly emails me a signed PDF that is CA-like, emails me patches, and I submit them to JIRA?
22:55	ohpauleez	TimMc: That's totally fair
22:55	TimMc	And would totally be rejected.
22:55	dnolen_	antares_: you have strong opinions about it.
22:55	TimMc	Or... would it? Can't be right.
22:56	dnolen_	antares_: maybe you'll actually prove me wrong and do something about it.
22:56	Raynes	What can he do about it, dnolen_?
22:56	antares_	dnolen_: why the heck should I prove somebody wrong? Your community is telling you, this process is broken
22:56	antares_	dnolen_: how many people other than you and maybe ohpauleez defend the process in here? 0
22:56	antares_	how many people agree there is a problem? certainly more than 2
22:57	dnolen_	antares_: you're on IRC - if you don't like it why don't you make a mailing list post - don't mistake my tone I'm not feeling that argumentative here.
22:57	TheBusby	Many contributors in OS use pseudonyms anyways to avoid legal entanglements which isn't legal to begin with...
22:57	antares_	dnolen_: because The Elders don't pay attention to clojure, I have no illusions about that
22:57	antares_	they play in their clojure-dev sandbox
22:57	technomancy	my friend mentalguy (who rewrote parts of the ruby threading implementation) gave up because the CA doesn't let him submit under a pseudonym
22:57	Sgeo	I tend to use pseudonyms because I grew up being told never to put my name online
22:57	ohpauleez	Has anyone asked RH what would be acceptable, legally, in place of the physical CA? OAuth + SSH public key perhaps?
22:57	Sgeo	I kind of regret that at times
22:58	dnolen_	antares_: huh ... that's not my impression. The Stuarts are there.
22:58	antares_	…and mentalguy is a hell of a hacker
22:58	antares_	dnolen_: yeah? how long has it been since they've discussed anything with the community?
22:58	Frozenlock	Sgeo: Why? What would you have gained by using your name?
22:58	pandeiro	pardon my ignorance and naivete and whatnot but could clojure itself ever be forked? just asking, i admit not even having read the epl
22:58	antares_	dnolen_: once every 2 months?
22:58	Sgeo	Frozenlock, my name would have been in the Wall Street Journal once
22:58	antares_	dnolen_: clojure.data.json is undergoing breaking changes, I did not see a single discussion of that on the clojure ML
22:59	ohpauleez	antares_: How would you propose they discuss things with the community? We are the community, we're discussing it right now
22:59	TheBusby	technomancy: he's more respectable than a number of others I know who just sign with fake info.
22:59	ohpauleez	we're the instruments of change
22:59	Raynes	I imagine you can fork Clojure. You can also destroy the world too, but that doesn't help people either.
22:59	dnolen_	antares_: it's a dev issue, so you could bite the bullet for everyone else and get on clojure-dev and outline how you think could be better.
22:59	antares_	ohpauleez: at least come out and say "hey, we are doing this, at least be aware of ti"
22:59	Sgeo	My name would also have been in some Paranoia supplement book
22:59	antares_	ohpauleez: but instead library authors will have to such it up when the next version comes out
22:59	devn	ohpauleez: adjusting the system is more than just verifiability though -- i think this tendency to say the current system is the way that it is, for one specific reason, is misguided. You're focusing on one minor dimension, don't you think?
23:00	antares_	no warnings, no explanations, just get this completely incompatible changes to a contrib library
23:00	antares_	ohpauleez: when we do something breaking or even potentially breaking on travis-ci.org, we write a blog post weeks in advance and try out best to keep things compatible
23:00	ohpauleez	devn: I certainly am, because the devil is in the details and we should decompose this. Let's come up with REAL ACTIONABLE things, that when put together make the system better
23:00	pandeiro	Raynes: ok could the alternative implementation be called 'open-clojure' for its play-on-wordiness? :)
23:01	antares_	ohpauleez: does that sound like what clojure/core is doing on the clojure ML? maybe on clojure-dev, I cannot subscribe to it
23:01	Raynes	Man, don't even talk about forking Clojure.
23:01	pandeiro	i am not serious in the least, sorry
23:01	Raynes	If this language turns into Arc, I might just go be a fireman or something.
23:01	Raynes	:p
23:01	antares_	Raynes: elixir. There is still elixir :)
23:01	dnolen_	antares_: well remember that contrib is supposed to follow guidelines. if they aren't being following you should complain about that to the maintainer, or express your dissatisfication w/ the rules not being followed.
23:01	ohpauleez	antares_: Clojure ML these days is mostly library and help related. It's most certainly a community portal
23:02	Raynes	antares_: Even Jose makes me mad sometimes. :P
23:02	ohpauleez	proposals for contributions come up all the time on dev
23:02	dnolen_	antares_: contrib is generally it's own can of worms since each project has it's own maintainer.
23:02	ohpauleez	and we all collab on it
23:02	antares_	dnolen_: I complain about that once every few months, being told I am not nice, then the issue comes back
23:02	ohpauleez	If you look, there's a great thread on how to answer the "reactive" piece for CLJS
23:02	dnolen_	antares_: on the ML?
23:02	antares_	ohpauleez: exactly! and The Elders are nowhere to be found on that portal.
23:03	ohpauleez	there are blog posts for the work being done on CLJS, ClojureScript-Lua, Android, Clojure optimization, core.logic
23:03	antares_	ohpauleez: honestly, who gives a shit about ClojureScript-Lua?
23:03	antares_	compared to clojure.org documentation, the core JVM clojure changes or contrib libraries
23:03	devn	Dude, that's someone's project.
23:03	antares_	oh, clojure.org documentation
23:04	ohpauleez	antares_: When someone proposes a real implementation, if it involves Clojure Core, RH contributes. Otherwise, the community takes it upon itself to police itself
23:04	ohpauleez	I'm AMPED on Lua as a backend
23:04	antares_	devn: I am sorry but this is exactly what I am saying : clojure/core is optimized for making clojure/core happy
23:04	ohpauleez	and I agre with devn, please be respectful
23:04	ohpauleez	no one here has said your ideas are wrong or aren't worth discussing
23:04	ohpauleez	please don't say someone else's are total shit
23:04	antares_	the rest of CLojure users have to live with clojure.org docs, clojure/core contrib process, breaking contrib lib changes, etc
23:05	ohpauleez	antares_: someone was fed up with clojure.org docs and made clojuredocs.org
23:05	ohpauleez	we're just going on tangents
23:05	antares_	ohpauleez: while in the Scala world someone made docs.scala-lang.org
23:05	Sgeo	clojredocs needs to be fixed.
23:05	antares_	and docs.python.org in another community
23:06	ohpauleez	so you just want it to be a sub-domain?
23:06	ohpauleez	Clojure is young
23:06	ohpauleez	we'll get there
23:06	antares_	and they were not pushed through patches and 11 months of waiting
23:06	devn	Sgeo: what do you think? a rewrite or patches?
23:06	ohpauleez	it wasn't until a year ago that PyPy had a python related address or email
23:06	devn	Sgeo: or better content organization? or?
23:06	antares_	the level of interest in improving clojure.org kinda speaks for itself
23:06	Sgeo	devn, searches for a thing should list exact matches first
23:06	ohpauleez	antares_: What is the level of interest?
23:06	antares_	exotic projects take all the time
23:07	antares_	bare essentials like docs are ignored
23:07	ohpauleez	agreed, this just came up on the Clojure ML today
23:07	antares_	ohpauleez: not a priority?
23:07	devn	Sgeo: are you interested in building a new clojuredocs?
23:07	Sgeo	No, just interested in fixing the current one
23:07	devn	Sgeo: sorry if that came off as antagonistic, im just genuinely curious
23:08	antares_	ohpauleez: the first thing I tell clojure newcomers is "don't use clojure.org for anything"
23:08	devn	i think clojuredocs should be a very approachable community project, but I don't think it's really set up in a way to allow that
23:08	devn	antares_: aww, that's not totally fair
23:08	devn	clojure.org has a lot of deep info, but for newcomers it's jump into freezing water
23:08	antares_	devn: yes it is. Because clojure.org is in the 1.2 days, with very reference/traditional Lisp-oriented docs and occasionally broken download links
23:09	devn	but then again, only for some newcomers
23:09	devn	for other "newcomers", clojure.org is what the doctor ordered
23:09	devn	it's a lisp manifesto
23:09	antares_	devn: again, optimizing for a handful of The Elders
23:09	ohpauleez	So major problems: 1.) Clojure.org should have a better host of documentation, especially for newcomers 2.) Clojure-dev should announce upcoming changes on Clojure ML and potentially via a blog connected to Planet Clojure. 3.) much like an ER, there should be a fast-track to getting smaller patches screened, approved, and merged. 4.) The CA process should be digital
23:09	antares_	anyway
23:09	antares_	I have to such it up and go write some more clojurewerkz.org guides
23:09	antares_	there is next to no interest in fixing the system
23:10	antares_	cool with me
23:10	devn	antares_: maybe, I'm not denying what you're saying doesn't exist
23:10	antares_	most of active users had given up
23:10	devn	I'm just suggesting maybe The Elders are a necessary bunch?
23:10	Sgeo	Well, ok. I'm mostly a Haskell oriented person
23:10	dnolen_	antares_: I'm not sure that's true. Alex Miller and others got rights to clojure.org in order to help.
23:11	ohpauleez	antares_: and last Conj we addressed some of these and made improvements. I suggest this Conj will make further improvements.
23:11	ohpauleez	We're young, nothing is perfect, and anyone can change anything if you really want to and are committed to putting the effort in
23:11	antares_	dnolen_: I am not wasting my time on clojure.org only to dance by someone else's tune waiting for my patch to be merged in just 11 months
23:11	ohpauleez	antares_: Is my list sufficient?
23:12	antares_	dnolen_: while esoteric projects (sorry, important projects some people care about) get so much attention
23:12	devn	antares_: that's a bit unfair, dude.
23:12	ohpauleez	agreed
23:12	Khaoz	humm.. good to know about clojurewerkz :)
23:12	ohpauleez	and also, doc and site changes often get merged immediately
23:12	antares_	devn: as you can see, I am neither fair nor nice
23:12	devn	antares_: i find that hard to believe
23:12	antares_	devn: but I have a bunch of other projects that people love
23:13	devn	that seems fair to me
23:13	devn	and nice
23:13	ohpauleez	antares_: If given the opportunity, would you put the same amount of effort and polish in Clojure proper that you do into the clojurewerkz stuff?
23:13	antares_	and I am convinced that Clojure development process (on all levels, from the details to priorities The Elders have set up) is almost as broken as I've seen
23:13	devn	antares_: clojure.org rights are not 11 month stints
23:14	devn	you get the ability to change the site
23:14	antares_	devn: yeah, just 4, right?
23:14	antares_	good to know
23:14	devn	you're just making assumptions now
23:14	antares_	devn: you know how long it takes to get access to clojurewerkz.org repos?
23:14	antares_	10 minutes
23:14	antares_	just prove me you want to work on something
23:14	antares_	especially if it is doc guides
23:14	antares_	I merged 3 PRs today
23:14	ohpauleez	antares_: Can you answer my two questions?
23:14	antares_	no patches, no JIRA, no CAs
23:15	antares_	3 releases, also today
23:15	antares_	users are already using new features, seem happy
23:15	ohpauleez	Is the list sufficient and if allowed, would you work on clojure.org and clojure proper as hard as you work on ClojureWerkz?
23:15	antares_	and then CLJ-940, a patch from march, finally broke CI for Monger after being merged last week
23:15	antares_	ohpauleez: which one, sorry?
23:15	ohpauleez	same amount of effort, same amount of polish
23:16	ohpauleez	So major problems: 1.) Clojure.org should have a better host of documentation, especially for newcomers 2.) Clojure-dev should announce upcoming changes on Clojure ML and potentially via a blog connected to Planet Clojure. 3.) much like an ER, there should be a fast-track to getting smaller patches screened, approved, and merged. 4.) The CA process should be digital
23:16	ohpauleez	antares_: ^
23:16	ohpauleez	would that be a start?
23:17	devn	antares_: I understand how every project outside of core and contrib libraries works. I appreciate your work, but it's hard for me to say "okay" when you wave your hands and say it will take at minimum 4 months to contribute meaningful changes to clojure.org. You haven't even asked.
23:17	ohpauleez	leaving serious contributions to core in the old process, and still using the new contrib process (which I think is very collaborative)
23:18	antares_	ohpauleez: that list outlines all the top issues Id' say
23:18	antares_	back to me working on clojure.org, no, after this discussion with dnolen_, I am not going to work on clojure.org
23:18	antares_	why would I?
23:18	ohpauleez	to make it better
23:18	devn	Or rather antares_: I don't think you've told the community what sorts of changes you intend to make.
23:18	antares_	I'd much rather work on guides.clojurewerkz.org
23:18	ohpauleez	to fix the things you see as broken
23:18	ohpauleez	to help the next person to come along
23:18	antares_	à la Learn You Some Erlang kind of thing
23:18	devn	antares_: collaboration is good, friend.
23:18	antares_	it will use pull requests and stuff
23:19	antares_	and nothing will get in my way
23:19	devn	lol
23:19	ohpauleez	would you merge the clojurewerkz guides into werkz.clojure.org if given the opportunity?
23:19	devn	I'm sorry, but that's what a villain says in a Scooby Doo episode:
23:19	ohpauleez	allowing you to manage it as desired
23:19	devn	03:15 < antares_> and nothing will get in my way
23:19	devn	"If it wasn't for you pesky kids!"
23:19	ohpauleez	hahaha
23:19	antares_	ohpauleez: it is currently all CC 3 licensed
23:20	ohpauleez	so I could even do that if I ewanted to
23:20	ohpauleez	assuming I attribute correctly
23:20	ohpauleez	let's add that to the list
23:20	antares_	ohpauleez: if someone wants to reuse anything that is or will be part of clojurewerkz.org, bless them
23:20	ohpauleez	Collect all CC 3 licensed works around Clojure, unify them, and make a solid doc central of them
23:20	antares_	devn: :)
23:20	ohpauleez	perfect, 5 things, that's a solid list
23:20	devn	Again antares_, I Don't think you're wrong, but you have to meet me roughly halfway on this. There is value in contributing to something you care about even if they use CVS and SourceForge and Telnet and Gnome 3.
23:21	ohpauleez	I'll email the both lists tomorrow morning
23:21	ohpauleez	fair enough?
23:21	antares_	devn: Clojure's process is 17th century. Why would I live in the 17th century if I can live in the 21st with Github?
23:22	dnolen_	antares_: I looked at all your posts to the clojure ML - you just post your project announcements. I've see no effort or interest there to express your opinions / concerns / criticisms about the clojure dev process. While making awesome stuff w/ an awesome language is a cornerstone - there's more to community than that.
23:22	antares_	devn: why would I spend my time explaining that things are broken rather than writing docs and developing libs?
23:23	ohpauleez	antares_: If we get positive responses, I'd totally appreciate any help you could pitch in. be it collecting and unifying documentation (maybe you have some tools to help you with that already)
23:23	devn	antares_: for the next person
23:24	wmealing_	no point whining about things,if people cared, it would have already been changed
23:24	wmealing_	do the work and move on
23:24	antares_	devn: my goal is to maximize my OSS contributions efficiency (which I am not doing this very moment, true). This includes developing libs that are practical (sorry, but core.unify is not practical for Joe The Web Developer) and making sure people have great time using those projects.
23:25	antares_	devn: clojure.org and clojure itself is as inefficient as it gets right now
23:25	antares_	in this sense
23:25	antares_	even though yes, everybody who uses clojure, well, uses core clojure
23:25	devn	maximize ROI and shift paradigms through agile synergy
23:25	antares_	and not everyone uses data store clients we have on clojurewerkz.org
23:25	antares_	devn: something like that, yes!
23:25	dnolen_	...
23:26	antares_	I don't know how committed you have to be to clojure to go through all this
23:26	Sgeo	core.unify, umm
23:26	Sgeo	Looks cool, but shouldn't it be part of core.logic?
23:26	antares_	while you have other options that are 0 friction
23:26	dnolen_	Sgeo: it predates core.logic as a contrib
23:26	ohpauleez	he beat me to it
23:27	devn	hey dnolen_, conj this year I hope?
23:27	dnolen_	devn: yes!
23:27	ohpauleez	I'm so amped for it
23:27	dnolen_	devn: you going to StrangeLoop?
23:27	devn	:X So sad to say no.
23:27	ohpauleez	antares_: Just out of curiousity, what's the biggest F/OSS project you've contributed to or managed?
23:28	ohpauleez	both in terms of public adoption and corporate adoption (or corporate investment)
23:28	zenoli	Ugh, slime is hanging emacs with great consistency. It's acting really flaky with even moderate levels of output from swank-clojure. Known issue?
23:28	devn	dnolen_: I'm going to need you to hug the Clojure contingent for me since I can't be in attendance.
23:29	devn	dnolen_: Serious Look
23:29	antares_	ohpauleez: by the total numbers of users, probably travis-ci.org (there are other very nice maintainers, too). By codebase size, I don't even know, a bunch of large-ish Java stuff. I am not saying I am worth listening to ;)
23:29	ohpauleez	antares_: hahaha, I didn't mean it to be taken that way, I was just curious
23:29	antares_	ohpauleez: but I have developed a couple of dozens of libraries and people love our doc guides. This makes me believe using JIRA and patches and caring about esoteric libraries is not that important to make fellow devs happy.
23:29	devn	Sgeo: Oh yeah? Whatcha thinking about?
23:29	dnolen_	devn: man that stinks! it's gonna be xtra awesome this year!
23:30	devn	dnolen_: I know :( Le Sob. Le Sigh.
23:30	ohpauleez	antares_: For sure, the docs make all the difference. Again, this JUST came up on the ML today
23:30	devn	dnolen_: do you have special guests yet this year for the conj? ;)
23:31	devn	I feel like after last year you need to bring back Turing as a hologram to give a lecture
23:31	dnolen_	devn: I'm pretty sure Dan & Will will be there again. They have some cool stuff to talk about I think.
23:31	Sgeo	Well, read can theoretically give many types. So if it tries to give data to, say, a function that is expecting a map, there should be a warning, and perhaps a check at the read level at runtime, since if the read doesn't return a map, it doesn't matter at what point stuff will start barfing, it would be better to detect it early
23:31	dnolen_	devn: well actually I KNOW they have cool stuff to talk about :)
23:31	Sgeo	*perhaps a run-time check
23:32	Sgeo	Even if it ends up merely being earlier at run-time
23:32	ohpauleez	antares_: I know your first go at getting involved with Clojure wasn't great. I know there are others in the community who have similar issues. I think we teased out a list of five solid things the whole community, together, could work on. I'd love for you to stay involved
23:32	devn	Excited to hear that! Huzzah!
23:32	Sgeo	Stuff that can be statically checked should, stuff that can be only detected at runtime should still be detected as soon as possibly
23:32	ohpauleez	the ClojureWerkz docs and guidebooks speak for themselves. That's what we, as a language/project/community need more of
23:32	Sgeo	*soon as possible
23:32	ohpauleez	there's no doubt about that
23:33	ohpauleez	but it takes many hands to make the work doable
23:33	devn	it takes some trust as well
23:33	ohpauleez	agreed
23:33	bobbywilson0	not sure why I'm getting this exception
23:33	bobbywilson0	,(map #(map Integer/parseInt (clojure.string/split % #"\s")) (#(clojure.string/split-lines %) "01 02 03\n04 05 06"))
23:33	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to find static field: parseInt in class java.lang.Integer, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:33	ohpauleez	and a little suffering
23:33	ohpauleez	:)
23:33	Sgeo	Perhaps the "type" of a function could be specified by a function, that gets run at the static checker
23:34	bobbywilson0	ohpauleez: were better exceptions part of that list? ;) jk
23:34	dnolen_	Sgeo: have you looked at Typed Clojure?
23:34	Khaoz	so, (use '[clojure.string]) say that some functions like reverse and replace are being replaced by the ones in the clojure.string. Is that normal or i`m missing something ?
23:34	ohpauleez	haha bobbywilson0 They're always on that list
23:34	Sgeo	dnolen_, no, although I've heard of Typed Racket and that Typed Clojure is being based on it
23:35	ohpauleez	bobbywilson0: I'm going to dig into your issue right now, but if memory serves me right, you can't map a method
23:35	bobbywilson0	ah ok
23:35	bobbywilson0	ohpauleez: I appreciate it
23:35	ohpauleez	try wrapping parseInt in: #(Integer/parseInt %)
23:35	antares_	Khaoz: that means clojure.string/reverse shadows clojure.core/reverse for you namespace. Use :use with :only (recommended) or (:refer-clojure :exclude [reverse])
23:35	xeqi	&(map #(map (fn [x] (Integer/parseInt x)) (clojure.string/split % #"\s")) (#(clojure.string/split-lines %) "01 02 03\n04 05 06"))
23:35	lazybot	⇒ ((1 2 3) (4 5 6))
23:35	dnolen_	Sgeo: worth looking at if static typing + Clojure interests you
23:36	bobbywilson0	xeqi: ding ding ding! thanks :)
23:36	xeqi	looks like others explained it
23:36	ohpauleez	bobbywilson0: xeqi The power of community
23:36	bobbywilson0	ohpauleez: word
23:36	ohpauleez	Sgeo: You could also find such things with dynamic checking - as part of the compilation process
23:37	Sgeo	<Phantom_Hoover> try asking them if O(ln n) is equivalent to O(log_32 n).
23:38	Sgeo	(PH has had a bad experience with this channel, with people giving the wrong answer. So, what's the answer?)
23:39	duck1123	isn't log32 n better?
23:39	mpan	I think I'm accidentally trying to consume an infinite seq somewhere
23:39	mpan	:(
23:39	Khaoz	antares_: thanks.
23:40	Khaoz	i think that is a little bit strange to have two reverse functions, but maybe i need to read a little more to get the point.
23:40	ohpauleez	duck1123: log32 n of the biggest n supported by the JVM in the data structures - is 7
23:40	ohpauleez	:)
23:40	ohpauleez	7 is a small number
23:41	Sgeo	ohpauleez, but is O(log_32 n) the same or different from O(ln n)?
23:41	ohpauleez	Sgeo: different
23:42	Sgeo	...
23:42	Sgeo	Is O(2n) the same or different from O(n)?
23:42	dnolen_	Sgeo: textbook same - in practice could be more different.
23:42	dnolen_	couldn't be
23:42	mpan	wait, is it somehow bad to call shuffle on the result of range?
23:42	ohpauleez	dnolen_: Again, thanks for all the work in the community and on CLJS. And for real, I swear, I'm going to start screening and approving patches for CLJS
23:42	xeqi	mpan: if its infinite
23:42	duck1123	if I remember my math, isn't log32N = ln(N) / ln(32)
23:43	mpan	range gives finite seqs doesn't it?
23:43	ohpauleez	Sgeo: Ohh in terms of big o complexity
23:43	mpan	,(range 1 10)
23:43	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5 ...)
23:43	ohpauleez	yeah, nolen's answer
23:43	xeqi	mpan: if you give it an end
23:43	mpan	I did
23:43	Sgeo	duck1123, yes
23:44	xeqi	,(shuffle (range 1 3))
23:44	clojurebot	[2 1]
23:44	mpan	,(take 10 (shuffle (range 1 100)))
23:44	clojurebot	(27 31 45 24 53 ...)
23:44	mpan	huh
23:44	mpan	how did I just hang my repl doing that?
23:44	cgag	what's ln of the largest n on the jvm?
23:46	TimMc	cgag: Largest Long? BigInteger?
23:46	mpan	,(->> (range 100) shuffle (take 10) doall)
23:46	clojurebot	(70 84 98 85 76 ...)
23:47	cgag	looks like 43
23:48	cgag	TimMc: "ohpauleez: log32 n of the biggest n supported by the JVM in the data structures - is 7"
23:48	mpan	idk what I'm running, I thought it was that, but whatever it is hung the repl and eclipse
23:52	devn	,(range 10 0 0)
23:52	clojurebot	(10 10 10 10 10 ...)
23:59	Sgeo	Are lazy sequences of I/O stuff generally discouraged?
23:59	Sgeo	Such as a lazy sequence of lines in a file
23:59	Sgeo	I know they're frowned upon in Haskell