#clojure – 2012-08-18

2012-08-18

01:29	rbxbx	Quiet tonight.
01:31	xeqi	weekends usually are compared to workdays (US)
01:39	gtuckerkellogg	Any sugestions on making this more idiomatic? http://pastebin.com/jk6jPqcv
01:43	Cr8	hm, I think this is working: https://www.refheap.com/paste/4457
01:44	rbxbx	xeqi fair enough, guess people have to have some sort of social lives.
01:44	uvtc	What would be the intent behind creating a function that looks like: `(defn foo [x & [ys]] ...)`?
01:46	rbxbx	you mean the destructuring portion?
01:46	uvtc	Yes.
01:46	Cr8	uvtc: that function expects either one or two params
01:48	uvtc	Cr8: Oh, I see. You not only want it to work with 1, 2, or more args, but you also want to indicate via the signature that if you pass more, they'll be ignored.
01:49	Cr8	actually I believe passing more would be an error
01:50	uvtc	Er...
01:50	Cr8	,(letfn [(foo [x & [y]] [x y])] [(foo 1) (foo 1 2)])
01:50	clojurebot	[[1 nil] [1 2]]
01:50	Cr8	,(letfn [(foo [x & [y]] [x y])] [(foo 1) (foo 1 2) (foo 1 2 3)])
01:50	clojurebot	[[1 nil] [1 2] [1 2]]
01:50	Cr8	nope, I'm wrong
01:50	uvtc	Right. They just get ignored.
01:51	uvtc	But the destructuring indicates to the reader that extra args get dropped.
01:51	uvtc	Thanks, Cr8. :)
01:52	Cr8	well the & just indicates to bind the next thing to the list of "the rest of the stuff", so it's just destructuring -that- list
01:52	Cr8	you could do
01:53	Cr8	,(letfn [(foo [x & [{:keys [a]}]] [x y])] [(foo 1) (foo 1 {:a 2})])
01:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: y in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:53	Cr8	,(letfn [(foo [x & [{:keys [a]}]] [x a])] [(foo 1) (foo 1 {:a 2})])
01:53	clojurebot	[[1 nil] [1 2]]
01:53	Cr8	right, that
01:55	Cr8	and that all works in any destructuring of a sequence, not just arg lists
01:56	Cr8	,(let [l '(1 2 3)] (let [[a & [b]] l] [a b]))
01:56	clojurebot	[1 2]
01:57	uvtc	Cr8: I see what your letfn example does. It says, "whatever extra args get passed, pack them up into a seq, then take that first item of the seq and treat it like it's a hash-map, taking out the val for :a and assigning it to a."
01:58	amalloy	(defn foo [x & [y]] ...) is just a grossly lazy way to write (defn foo ([x] ...) ([x y] ...))
01:59	uvtc	Cr8: right, your most recent example just does the same as above. Got it.
01:59	uvtc	Cr8: thanks.
02:00	uvtc	amalloy: I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean that --- inside of `(defn foo [x & [y]] ...)` you then can expect logic that checks how many args were passed?
02:00	uvtc	s/you then/--- you then/
02:00	Cr8	you can provite different arities in a defn.
02:01	uvtc	Cr8: Right. I know that. :)
02:02	uvtc	Cr8: So, given amalloy's example, I'm not sure where the laziness is (real laziness, not lazy-seq laziness :) ).
02:03	uvtc	The function I was looking at is:
02:03	uvtc	https://github.com/ring-clojure/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/params.clj#L33
02:03	amalloy	uvtc: basically. sometimes nil is the reasonable default for y, and you can elide the check, but often you see functions that wind up doing the check
02:06	uvtc	Ok. `y` is set to nil if you don't pass in a value for it.
02:06	uvtc	Thanks, amalloy.
02:11	amalloy	uvtc: i haven't looked closely, but i'd be surprised if [x & [y]] were used anywhere in the clojure source at all. it's much slower than a two-arg function
02:12	amalloy	er, two-arity
02:14	uvtc	amalloy: Oh, interesting. Thanks.
02:15	aperiodic	i hear that destructuring has overhead, but are there any good links on exactly how much i should expect?
02:17	amalloy	aperiodic: in real life? none. i'm just exaggerating because clojure.core is tuned aggressively for performance
02:17	aperiodic	sweet
02:33	rbarraud	KiwiPing?
02:33	rbarraud	KiwiAucklandWaikatoPing?
02:34	rbarraud	Eatingp
06:41	firesofmay	Hi, How do I save the output of my clojure.test to a variable?
06:46	jjcomer	@firesofmay Try using the with-out-str macro. This should bind out to a string
06:47	firesofmay	jjcomer, is this correct? :
06:48	firesofmay	(def msg (with-out-str
06:48	firesofmay	(run-tests)))
06:48	firesofmay	jjcomer, as I am getting "" inside msg variable.
06:50	borkdude	,(count (with-out-str (print "foo")))
06:50	clojurebot	3
06:50	jjcomer	@firesofmay That is how you should call it.
06:53	firesofmay	jjcomer, borkdude that works fine for print statements. but for run-tests it does not work.
06:53	firesofmay	maybe because the result is a clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap?
06:58	nbeloglazov	&(doc with-err-str)
06:58	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: with-err-str in this context
07:03	borkdude	hmm spacebar doesn't work in light table
07:04	borkdude	could be because I'm in demo mode now
07:05	borkdude	hmm, it wants me to type (+ 4 5) in the scratch editor, but I can't
07:05	jjcomer	@firesofmay This worked: (let [s (java.io.StringWriter.)] (binding [test-out s] (with-test-out (run-tests))) (str s))
07:07	firesofmay	jjcomer thanks that worked :)
07:08	borkdude	ibdknox just for the record, I couldn't type a space in demo mode of the table
07:08	borkdude	ibdknox it worked when demo mode was over
07:08	jjcomer	@firesofmay np
08:01	azkesz	Hi, is it possible to destructure only the last element ?
08:04	foodoo	azkesz: good question. But if you only need the last component of a collection, why not just use (last)? Destructuring is usually used when you need to extract several different parts from a collection.
08:04	gfredericks	azkesz: the answer is no :)
08:05	azkesz	ok good point, I'm merely wondering how that would be possible
08:05	gfredericks	reversing it first could do it
08:05	gfredericks	or if you know how many elements there are you could destructure the whole thing
08:06	azkesz	something like this doable? (defn y [[ ... last-2 last-1 last ]] (println "the last 3: " last-2 last-1 last))
08:06	azkesz	assuming I don't know the size of the passed vector
08:07	azkesz	but i do want to use destructuring=)
08:07	azkesz	gfredericks, I mean, I don't know where I would do the reversing
08:07	gfredericks	destructuring is built on the seq interface, which only supports first/rest
08:07	gfredericks	(defn y [arg] (let [[last] (reverse arg)] ...))
08:08	gfredericks	or simply (defn y [arg] (let [last-el (last arg)] ...))
08:08	gfredericks	which is more efficient
08:09	azkesz	would it be more complicated for getting the last 3?
08:09	azkesz	I imagine having to call rest 2 times?
08:10	azkesz	or can the (reverse args) be used as the input vector for a destructuring? and get the first 3?
08:12	azkesz	,(let [rev (reverse (range 4))] (let [last last-1 last-2 & _] (println "last 3: " last-2 last-1 last))
08:12	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
08:13	gfredericks	(defn y [arg] (let [[last last-2 last-3] (reverse arg)] ...))
08:13	azkesz	that's quite nice
08:16	jml	is there a standard/recommended command-line argument parsing library?
08:16	azkesz	,((fn [arg] (let [[last last-1 last-2] (reverse arg)] (println "last 3: " last-2 last-1 last))) (range 10) )
08:16	clojurebot	last 3: 7 8 9
08:17	azkesz	gfredericks, thank you
08:17	Bronsa	jml: https://github.com/clojure/tools.cli
08:17	jml	Bronsa: thanks.
08:17	Bronsa	np
08:18	azkesz	how can I find out what methods ISeq supports?
08:21	azkesz	found here: http://clojure.org/sequences
08:39	jml	I wish I could hug clojure.
08:47	Iceland_jack	jml: (you can)
09:03	hyPiRion	Wouldn't it be more efficient to just do this?
09:03	hyPiRion	(let [[last-2 last-1 last] (take-last 3 (range 100))] [last-2 last-1 last])
09:03	hyPiRion	,(let [[last-2 last-1 last] (take-last 3 (range 100))] [last-2 last-1 last])
09:03	clojurebot	[97 98 99]
09:04	hyPiRion	And if you know it's a vector, then this is constant time:
09:05	hyPiRion	,(let [v (vec (range 100)) n (count v) {last-2 (- n 3) last-1 (- n 2) last (- n 1)} v] [last-2 last-1 last])
09:05	clojurebot	[97 98 99]
09:15	jml	Do I have to add something to my :dependencies in project.clj to use things from clojure.contrib?
09:21	jml	how do I check if x is a substring of y?
09:25	jml	(.contains x y) seems to wor
09:25	jml	work, rather.
09:25	Bronsa	that's the way to go
09:55	jml	hmm. paredit-mode isn't automatically closing braces the way it does parens and brackets
09:57	llasram	jml: In clojure-mode file buffers, or in the SLIME REPL buffer, or somewhere else entirely?
09:57	jml	llasram: clojure-mode buffers.
09:58	llasram	jml: Hmm, that is odd.
09:59	jml	maybe I have the wrong version of paredit, or there's a customize setting I'm missing
10:00	llasram	Just clarify, which is the character you mean by "brace"?
10:01	jml	{
10:02	llasram	Yeah, some other people have had problems with that in the past. Is it in fact bound to paredit-open-curly ?
10:02	jml	no, apparently not.
10:02	jml	just to self-insert
10:04	llasram	Ok. And try `describe-syntax` in a Clojure buffer, and check on the syntax of { and }. The should be open and close respectively
10:05	jml	{ (} which means: open, matches }
10:05	jml	} ){ which means: close, matches {
10:05	jml	looks sane to me.
10:06	devn	http://bit.ly/NaYJNx
10:07	devn	jml: i can help you out with that.
10:08	jml	devn: cool. how?
10:09	devn	jml: try: (define-key slime-repl-mode-map (kbd "{") 'paredit-open-curly)
10:09	devn	as well as (define-key slime-repl-mode-map (kbd "}") 'paredit-close-curly)
10:09	devn	i think that ought to do it
10:10	llasram	Except that jml's problem is with clojure-mode, not with the slime repl :-)
10:10	devn	d'oh
10:10	jml	right. I can manually bind the keys.
10:10	jml	I guess I'm vaguely interested in knowing why they aren't working out-of-the-box.
10:10	llasram	jml: Ah!
10:11	llasram	So those keys aren't bound by paredit itself
10:11	llasram	clojure-mode has a hook to add them when paredit-mode is already loaded
10:12	llasram	Assuming you don't just have an ancient/busted version of clojure-mode
10:12	llasram	Just re-`clojue-mode`ing your buffer should fix it
10:13	jml	llasram: didn't seem to work. it's possible I do have an old version. clojure things seem to move more rapidly than its Ubuntu packaging
10:13	jml	s/its/their/
10:14	llasram	Oh yeah!
10:14	jml	(when (>= paredit-version 21)
10:14	jml	my paredit is 20
10:14	llasram	Ahh, well there you go
10:15	llasram	marmalade to the rescue then :-)
10:15	llasram	Or... what's the newer cool one that builds new emacs packages straight from github repos?
10:16	jml	llasram: not sure.
10:16	jml	llasram: thanks for the help though
10:16	llasram	np!
10:17	llasram	Ah, MELPA: http://melpa.milkbox.net/
10:28	davidd`	hey, what's the relationship between ClojureScript and ClojureScript One?
10:29	davidd`	it looks like ClojureScript One is an example/tutorial app?
10:29	djpowell	clojurescriptone is basically somewhere between an example of how to get started with clojurescript, and a set of reusable frameworks
10:30	davidd`	oh cool thx djpowell
10:31	djpowell	it has some good ideas. if you'd prefer to start with a clean slate though, it is worth checking out lein-cljsbuild
10:40	jml	is there a sensible flymake configuration for clojure?
10:40	llasram	jml: Like for auto-running tests?
10:41	jml	llasram: I'm thinking more of something like pyflakes that does a quick static check for double definitions, using names that aren't defined, etc.
10:43	llasram	Hmm. I'm not sure -- I don't think it fits with the typical workflow. I think most people have a running REPL session that they're constantly sending code to as they write it.
10:45	llasram	I haven't used it yet, but there is lazytest, which kicks of a process which monitors your sources and re-runs your tests whenever they change
10:45	llasram	But I'm not sure of the best way to glue a persistent process into something like flymake...
10:46	jml	hmm, thanks
10:46	jml	it's mostly just to catch things like misspellings, or requiring modules that aren't being used.
10:52	casion	jml: I've yet to encounter those things when working in clojure
10:52	casion	lisps seem to make those concerns a non-issue due to the workflow
10:52	jml	I just misspelled 'frequencies' as 'frequency'
10:53	llasram	Sure, but didn't you then send that change to the REPL as soon as you'd typed it?
10:53	casion	if you're using the repl often, you'd catch that right away
10:53	jml	llasram: I ran the tests which caught it
10:54	llasram	Are you using an Emacs-connected REPL? If not I highly suggest it
10:56	jml	llasram: I am. I'm sure I'm not using it to anywhere near its full potential.
10:57	jml	mostly just swapping into it and typing / copy/pasting stuff like I would to a Python repl on the command line
10:58	llasram	If you're using SLIME or nrepl.el, try hitting C-c C-k every time you finish typing a reasonably complete thought
10:58	jml	llasram: heh, ok. thanks.
10:58	jml	btw, would appreciate a quick glance over https://github.com/jml/anagrm/blob/master/src/anagrm/core.clj and https://github.com/jml/anagrm/blob/master/test/anagrm/core_test.clj to verify I'm not doing anything catastrophically silly.
10:59	llasram	That's been the biggest workflow change for me :-) But it makes a surprisingly large difference, having the current state of your program always available to poke at as change it
11:00	llasram	jml: Trivial, but `anagram?` has the parameters and docstring in the wrong order. It took me a while + religiously putting params on a new line after the function name to get that right...
11:01	jml	llasram: oh, good one, thanks.
11:02	jml	also, I think I can make the (use ...) call a directive in ns
11:02	llasram	Yep, was just about to type that :-)
11:02	jml	data trumps code
11:03	ebaxt	anyone know how to write this css selector in enlive? head > script:last-of-type? Only thing I get working is [[:head] [last-of-type :script]] but it seems a bit verbose...
11:03	jml	much like making an omelette trumps sitting here & going hungry.
11:03	jml	bbiab.
11:03	llasram	Also, would suggest switching to Clojure 1.4, wherein :use is unofficially deprecated, and you can just do :require with a :refer option. Reduces the number of slightly-different things going on
11:25	Frozenlock	cljs: trying to load jayq from the repl (load-namespace 'jayq.core). Then I try to get the body: ($ :body), but I get this error: "Error evaluating:" ($ :body) :as "test.crypt.$.call(null,\"\\uFDD0'body\");\n"
11:25	Frozenlock	#<TypeError: Cannot call method 'call' of undefined>
11:25	Frozenlock	Did I failed in loading the library?
11:33	jml	llasram: good idea. I don't really see any benefit in sticking with the Ubuntu-packaged stuff.
11:33	acagle_	I'm using ERC Version 5.3 with GNU Emacs 24.1.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin11.4.0, multi-tty) of 2012-08-07.
11:38	jml	can I download the API & reference docs for offline use?
11:42	llasram	jml: Beyond the docstrings you can get to with `slime-describe-symbol`?
11:42	jml	llasram: well, I want something I can browse & search.
11:43	llasram	Well, you could build the docos yourself from the source, using the same process used to build the on-line version. I just try to always be online, so haven't done it myself :-)
11:43	jml	hmm, ok.
11:44	jml	I might hold off on that one for a bit
11:49	jml	oh, slime has an apropos search. neat.
12:00	jml	I gather a lot of time is spent firing up the JVM when running a command-line app
12:01	llasram	Unfortunately. It does make it somewhat more annoying to write command-line applications in Clojure
12:03	jml	yeah
12:03	jml	Python's no rock star when it comes to startup time either
12:04	jml	hmm. I guess I should try to do something webby now.
12:06	jml	noir certainly has a pretty looking web page
12:07	Frozenlock	jml: I agree, ibdknox sure has some kind of 'design' fiber in him.
12:09	ludston	It's a pity light table is so slow now.
12:09	ludston	Hopefully it will get quicker soon
12:09	ibdknox	ludston: slow now?
12:09	ludston	Oh hi! Huge fan!
12:09	Frozenlock	lol
12:10	ludston	Noticable delay when typing
12:10	ibdknox	really?
12:10	ludston	Yeah
12:10	ibdknox	typing where?
12:10	ibdknox	what kind of machine?
12:10	ludston	Chromium in linux, 8gb ram i7, KDE
12:10	ludston	Running on openjdk
12:10	ibdknox	and typing anywhere is slow?
12:10	ludston	Yeah
12:11	ludston	Like
12:11	ludston	0.1 seconds delay
12:11	ibdknox	woah
12:11	ibdknox	hm
12:11	ludston	Just enough to be jarring
12:11	ibdknox	it's not delayed on osx, windows, or ubuntu :(
12:12	ibdknox	though I haven't tried chromium directly
12:12	ludston	It could be more chromium than anything else
12:12	ludston	Dunno how much more optimized chrome is
12:12	ibdknox	I'll take a look
12:12	ludston	Awesome!
12:13	ibdknox	typing certainly should not be slow
12:34	ludston	ibdknox: It gets slower when you have multiple tabs with javascript running on them
12:34	ludston	Specifically stuff like google's instasearch
12:35	ludston	But then killing those tabs speeds it up
12:39	Frozenlock	Weird... in cljs, (ns dom.test (:require [jayq.core])) doesn't seem to load the library the same way `use' would. I can't call the library's function directly.
12:40	Frozenlock	(ns dom.test (:require [jayq.core :as j])) works as expected: (j/$ :body) is valid.
12:41	Frozenlock	But really, I would like to load a library and then have all the functions available. Is this possible?
12:41	jml	I've got something that's working with 'lein test' but failing to compile with slime. It's after switching from requiring string and using it as clojure.string/lower-case to ':require clojure.string :refer (lower-case)' and updating the call sites to say just 'lower-case'
12:41	jml	error: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: lower-case in this context, compiling:(/home/jml/src/clojure/anagrm/src/anagrm/core.clj:17)
12:47	llasram	jml: (ns ... (:require [clojure.string :refer [lower-case]])) ?
12:48	llasram	(Using lists instead of vectors should be fin e -- mostly just making sure everything was appropriately wrapped)
12:49	llasram	You can always: (remove-ns 'namespace.symbol)
12:49	llasram	then re-SLIME-compile
12:49	llasram	That will force the namespace to be created afresh, if anything has gotten too confused
12:50	llasram	(but will leave dangling referencess to the old namespace if any others have `require`d it)
12:50	jml	llasram: same behaviour with vector rather than list.
12:50	jml	llasram: mucking around w/ remove-ns now.
12:51	jml	llasram: https://github.com/jml/anagrm/blob/master/src/anagrm/core.clj has the code, fwiw
12:51	llasram	Oh, and if it wasn't clear, `namespace.symbol` is the namespace you're defining, not importing from. I actually usually just do: (remove-ns (ns-name ns))
12:54	jml	llasram: aahh, that helps (although I've seized this opportunity to restart emacs to get the new paredit I installed.)
12:59	ibdknox	Frozenlock: you have to do (:use [blah :only [cool]] CLJS doesn't allow anything else
13:01	llasram	I should restart emacs one of these days...
13:01	casion	llasram: lol, I know what you mean
13:01	llasram	Yep, May 29th :-)
13:01	casion	feb 11 here
13:01	llasram	Nice
13:01	casion	uptime since december
13:01	casion	wow
13:02	casion	I've restarted my slime emacs instance
13:02	casion	but my C environment is pretty old lol
13:06	Frozenlock	ibdknox: shame I have to enumerate them... but thanks for the answer!
13:07	zilti	I'm trying to use clojure-jack-in with emacs-24 on Windows 7. But I always get an error message that the command \"\"java\"\" is mistyped or could not be found. I'm using the most recent version of leiningen.
13:07	mdeboard	Does anyone have any resources for giving a "Why Clojure?" talk? I'm giving one at my local Scala & Lambda Lounge meetups and I'd like to not reinvent all the wheels
13:08	casion	ibdknox: is there a roadmap for light table?
13:08	Frozenlock	zilti: in the command prompt, if you type "java -version", do you have something?
13:08	mdeboard	That is, a talk to people who are already sold on the benefits of FP
13:08	ibdknox	casion: there are about 10 right now :)
13:09	zilti	Frozenlock: Yes, I'm using Version 1.7.0_05
13:09	casion	ibdknox: well… that's not very helpful lol
13:09	ibdknox	casion: there are some key things happening in the next couple weeks that will determine which one we execute on
13:09	zilti	64bit, might that be the problem?
13:09	casion	ibdknox: alright, well good luck. Very cool work you're doing
13:11	mdeboard	casion: I'm tinkering with LT atm, are you connecting to another project?
13:11	casion	mdeboard: not atm
13:11	Frozenlock	I don't think so... I was using it too. You can check http://frozenlock.org/2012/03/06/clojure-on-windows-7/, it's the notes I've taken when I installed it on my win7 machine. Note that it was for lein1, so I really don't know if it's accurate anymore.
13:11	mdeboard	Trying to sort out how that works exactly
13:11	casion	mdeboard: I couldnt figure it out, I've been trying the liverepl all day
13:12	zilti	Frozenlock: thanks, I'll have a look
13:12	mdeboard	casion: Are you getting a java runtime error by chance
13:12	casion	mdeboard: with connecting?
13:12	mdeboard	Wlel, I connect fine
13:13	mdeboard	oh
13:13	mdeboard	oh god
13:13	mdeboard	ibdknox: I''''''
13:13	mdeboard	ibdknox: This is awesome.
13:13	casion	oh no, he's having a stroke
13:13	mdeboard	casion: I think I got it sorted :P
13:13	casion	what was it?
13:13	zilti	Well, it's not anything new for me there.
13:14	mdeboard	casion: I restarted and went right to table, instead of going to irepl then connecting
13:14	Frozenlock	Is there autocompletion and docs with LT?
13:14	casion	mdeboard: oh!? does that make it work?
13:14	ibdknox	Frozenlock: still coming
13:14	mdeboard	It did here
13:14	casion	I've always gone straight to the repl
13:14	casion	maybe that's my problem too
13:14	mdeboard	it's pretty awesome, wow
13:14	Frozenlock	ibdknox: Well it's nice that it's planned :)
13:14	ibdknox	there appears to be some very weird bug that prevents the nsbrowser from loading the nss only some of the time on first connect
13:15	ibdknox	a couple people have run into that
13:15	ibdknox	refreshing should resolve it
13:16	firesofmay	Hi, What library is recommended for http connection and receiving response in clojure?
13:16	zilti	Hm I really suspect it could be because Java is 64-bit and emacs is 32-bit.
13:17	Frozenlock	firesofmay: I use clj-http
13:17	firesofmay	Frozenlock, thanks checking.
13:17	xeqi	firesofmay: https://clojars.org/clj-http
13:18	firesofmay	thanks xeqi!
13:18	casion	mdeboard: ooh it does work then
13:18	mdeboard	ibdknox: I've been doing some work with packaged chrome apps at work, I assume that's the eventual plan here?
13:19	mdeboard	s/I assume that's/Is that
13:19	ibdknox	mdeboard: standalone app with embedded webkit is the long term goal
13:19	mdeboard	ahhh
13:19	mdeboard	I like a lot.
13:19	casion	ok, this is way cooler than I thought
13:19	mdeboard	casion: lol, my exact reaction
13:20	mdeboard	Now, where's my T-shirt
13:20	mdeboard	:P
13:20	casion	I can't remember the last time, if ever, that I opened an IDE and thought 'oooooOOOooOOoo this could be more useful than doing this in emacs'
13:20	mdeboard	Yeah eventually for sure
13:20	bosie	whats a good resource for learning about stm?
13:21	zilti	casion: lighttable looks extremely promising
13:21	mdeboard	bosie: The wikipedia article is good
13:21	Spaceghostc2c	casion: True story yes.
13:21	Frozenlock	C'mon, nothing's better than Emacs
13:21	mdeboard	The road to replacing emacs is a long one for me though.
13:21	casion	It just needs something identical to paredit, and I'll be very happy
13:22	bosie	mdeboard: what are you replacing it with?
13:22	casion	whoa whoa, no one said replacing emacs
13:22	mdeboard	bosie: Nothing yet.
13:22	casion	let's not go insane here
13:22	Frozenlock	let's use notepad :p
13:22	mdeboard	Frozenlock: Consider it done
13:23	mdeboard	Now if someone would just invent a browser-based version of Notepad with live code evaluation, we'd be set.
13:23	casion	os x supports most emacs nav commands, so this is pretty useful already
13:23	casion	besides the obvious omissions
13:23	foodoo	mdeboard: live code evaluation in general or just JS?
13:23	Frozenlock	I have coworkers doing code in notepad. (I'm not a programmer and I don't work in a code-related field, but still, it's sad to see)
13:23	mdeboard	foodoo: I was kidding, the joke being that Light Table is browser-based with live code-evaluation
13:24	mdeboard	Frozenlock: Why are you in here if you're not a programmer
13:24	Frozenlock	Because I'm awesome ?
13:24	Frozenlock	:p
13:24	foodoo	mdeboard: Depends on the definition of a programmer. I am not a professional programmer. It's mostly a hobby
13:24	Frozenlock	I like to program. Perhaps one day I'll know enough to be one
13:24	mdeboard	I don't subscribe to the notion that "programmer" is a protected title. Farmers farm, programmers program, QED
13:24	casion	I'm in #c++ and I don't know a single god damned thing about C++
13:25	casion	so I empathize
13:25	mdeboard	casion: No one does
13:25	casion	touché
13:25	foodoo	casion: You know that it's a programming language.
13:25	mdeboard	If you program, you're a programmer. It's a tautology
13:25	mdeboard	but some people still need to be convinced
13:25	Frozenlock	Ok I mispoke, I'm not a professional programmer.
13:25	foodoo	mdeboard: convinced of what?
13:26	mdeboard	foodoo, Frozenlock: Some programmers get very protective/defensive of new or hobbyist programmers calling themselves programmers
13:26	bosie	mdeboard: know of anything more clojure relrated?
13:26	bosie	mdeboard: still talking about stm ;)
13:26	casion	mdeboard: that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard
13:26	mdeboard	bosie: So, you're not looking for technical details but Clojure-specific implementation?
13:26	casion	I've not encountered that, but if it is common then I need to get my ski-mask and ice pick ready
13:27	bosie	mdeboard: well, the wiki covers the technical details rather nicely i must say
13:27	foodoo	bosie: what don't you understand? The general concept? Or something specifc?
13:27	bosie	foodoo: how its built on top of java/jvm
13:27	foodoo	bosie: with locking
13:28	mdeboard	bosie: You should read about Clojure's data structures for managing state. Agents, refs, etc
13:28	bosie	mdeboard: k, haven't read up on those. will do, thanks.
13:28	mdeboard	bosie: If you're evaluating Clojure for use, you should pick up a copy of Clojure Programming
13:28	bosie	mdeboard: i am not evaluating
13:28	bosie	mdeboard: i am going to use it
13:29	casion	I personally like Programming Clojure better, but either is great
13:29	mdeboard	casion: Those two & Joy of Clojure are all good but Clojure Programming was the first that I was able to read (almost) cover-to-cover
13:30	bosie	mdeboard: i bought both actually, started reading CP and i find it quite approachable. more so than PC
13:30	bosie	granted, i am only 70 pages in
13:30	casion	mdeboard: it was the exact opposite for me. Clojure Programming assumes you've used another dynamic language
13:30	casion	and I haven't
13:30	mdeboard	casion: Yeah, very true
13:30	casion	so it was very confusing for me
13:30	mdeboard	huh
13:30	foodoo	I recommend that you check out various videos on http://blip.tv/clojure because Clojure follows a specific philosophy
13:30	mdeboard	Interesting
13:31	bosie	cainus: hm. i haven't noticed
13:31	Frozenlock	cljs - Is there a way to print in the repl the content of #<[object Object]>?
13:31	foodoo	And understanding this philosophy really helps
13:31	casion	Progamming Clojure expained things in a more general sense without constantly saying 'Here, just look at this python code'
13:31	mdeboard	and of course watch Simple Made Easy http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/
13:31	holo	hi
13:31	mdeboard	for great encapsulation of Clojure philosophy :)
13:31	foodoo	Simple Made Easy is definitely a must-watch
13:31	mdeboard	casion: Didn't think of that, but you're right. I definitely live in a dynamic language echo chamber :P
13:31	casion	mdeboard: I've spent most of my programming life doing embedded C and asm
13:32	mdeboard	I'll keep that in mind when doing my talk at IndyScala
13:32	bosie	mdeboard, foodoo bookmaraked, thanks
13:32	casion	clojure has been a total mindfuck for me lol
13:32	bosie	foodoo: specific philosphy?
13:32	casion	never used a functional or dynamic language
13:32	casion	or lisp
13:32	casion	and most everything assumes experiecne in one of those 3 things
13:32	mdeboard	casion: How long have you been pergermming?
13:32	bosie	casion: damn, from asm to clojure....
13:32	bosie	;)
13:33	Frozenlock	casion: ever used a repl while coding?
13:33	foodoo	bosie: keeping things as simple as it makes sense (incidental vs. accidental complexity), function programming, abstractions, ....
13:33	casion	mdeboard: hmm, 14 years doing 'professional' stuff
13:33	casion	longer as a hobbyist
13:33	foodoo	function -> functional
13:33	mdeboard	casion: wow
13:33	atsidi	what irks me is the way everything written just assumes you were a java developer first.
13:33	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
13:33	bosie	Frozenlock: i would be surprised if asm has a repl
13:33	casion	mdeboard: I get in trouble here just asking the wrong questions as it is
13:33	foodoo	bosie: In MS DOS you could get into the debugger and type in assembly language statements to execute
13:33	casion	half the shit I think I'm trying to figure out isn't even applicable on FP or clojure
13:34	holo	i want to reduce partially a collection by joining some items of it to each other. with wich function can i accomplish this?
13:34	bosie	casion: like?
13:34	casion	and I constantly want to know implementation details
13:34	Frozenlock	atsidi: +++ The hard part of clojure is the *&^&%& java understuff
13:34	foodoo	holo: what does your input look like?
13:34	casion	bosie: mostly conceptual things relative to FP, like passing values around
13:34	bosie	foodoo: hah, didn't know
13:34	bosie	casion: good luck reading up on jvm's GC ;)
13:34	casion	casion: I want to solve everything with assignment
13:35	mdeboard	casion: Yeah, I describe switching from imperative programming to a functional context as it's like walking around with your hand balled into a fist (imperative) then having to learn how to relax it (fp)
13:35	mdeboard	casion: and recursion, apparently
13:35	Frozenlock	atsidi: and now in cljs it's the damn javascript :P Every example I saw assumed you had a working knowledge of javascript and/or DOM
13:35	casion	mdeboard: recursion I'm ok with
13:36	mdeboard	casion: Was a joke about addressing your comment to yourself
13:36	mdeboard	13:33 <casion> casion: I want to solve everything with assignment
13:36	casion	lol
13:36	foodoo	Frozenlock: Pretty much the same thing with Clojure on the JVM, isn't its
13:36	casion	ahahahaha
13:36	holo	foodoo, ["hello", "mars", "world"] i want to join "hello" with "world" . without assoc please
13:37	mdeboard	(clojure.string/join " ")
13:37	foodoo	holo: And you generally want to join all odd entries together? Or what's the criterion?
13:37	Frozenlock	foodoo: Yes, which is a shame IMO. It's like learning 2 languages at the same time.
13:37	holo	foodoo, the output would be a new collection like ["helloworld", "mars"] or ["mars", "helloworld"]
13:37	foodoo	holo: Is your input collection alsways 3 elements long?
13:37	mdeboard	foodoo: I disagree, you don't have to know anything about the JVM beyond the notion of jars to write Clojure
13:38	holo	foodoo, yes, the length is known (but actually i'm waiting for the negative index patch submission to the nightly builds to make it more dynamic)
13:38	foodoo	mdeboard: When faced with stack traces, it helps to understand what is relevant to find the error. And some things just need Java interop like raising values to a power with Math/pow
13:38	Frozenlock	mdeboard: how to parse "12.0" ?
13:38	atsidi	Frozenlock: There's lots of that kind of thing. I'm always running across mentions of "now, generate a war file and deploy it as per usual." As if I deploy war files every day.
13:39	holo	foodoo, add the first element of the vector with the last. but i can use and odd criterion if i use a replace function first
13:39	nz-	what is the nice/idiomatic way to handle exceptions?
13:39	atsidi	The Clojure language is pretty easy, I've written a lot of Lisp over the years, but the Java stuff under it is a much bigger learning curve.
13:39	mdeboard	Frozenlock: Woops, touche :)
13:40	holo	foodoo, the problem is, how do i really avoid assoc in this?
13:40	foodoo	holo: So you want to have something like this: [first stuff-in-between last] --> [firstlast stuff-in-between] for any length of a collection?
13:41	nz-	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAR_file_format_(Sun)
13:41	mdeboard	foodoo: Also true re: stack traces
13:41	foodoo	holo: I don't see why you need to use assoc with vectors
13:41	mdeboard	However, there's no denying you have to know way more about the DOM for CLJS than the JVM for Clj
13:41	Frozenlock	mdeboard: Damnit
13:41	foodoo	mdeboard: agreed
13:42	Frozenlock	I will need to learn the DOM stuff now :s
13:42	holo	foodoo, that would be the best option, because it's more dynamic, but actually for now the length is known, so any of them is good for now
13:43	mdeboard	ibdknox: Is the warning message when you click the '-' button on the ns browser appropriately frightening?
13:44	mdeboard	ibdknox: If I click that button does it just remove the namespace from memory or delete the actual file or what?
13:44	ibdknox	mdeboard: I should put a picture of a monster
13:44	ibdknox	mdeboard: both
13:44	mdeboard	what.
13:45	ibdknox	you have to confirm it
13:45	foodoo	(defn join-ends [coll] (let [fst (first coll) mid (butlast (next coll)) end (last coll) ] (cons (+ fst end) mid)))
13:45	mdeboard	The warning should DEFINITELY say that it's going to delete the file.
13:45	foodoo	holo: just replace the + with string concatenation or whatever you like
13:45	ibdknox	hm
13:45	ibdknox	ok
13:45	holo	foodoo, checking
13:46	foodoo	holo: currently it takes an input that consists only of numbers. So if you want to use it with strings, you have to replace the +
13:47	holo	foodoo, thanks
13:47	ibdknox	mdeboard: what did you expect it to do?
13:47	mdeboard	ibdknox: At least for now, when LT is running in a browser tab, I'm not expecting it to be performing file system manipulation behind the scenes. Maybe when it's a native app and there's a more obvious connection between the actual files that already exist and what I'm looking at.
13:48	mdeboard	ibdknox: Just remove the ns from memory
13:48	ibdknox	I mean it's an editor
13:48	ibdknox	if you save it saves
13:48	ibdknox	if you add an ns it adds a file
13:49	mdeboard	ibdknox: Well,like I say, at least during this alpha stage when everyone, including clojure lightweights like me, are giving it a go, just make it more obvious that it deletes the file. I would be pissed if it deleted a file that wasn't under version control.
13:50	mdeboard	(especially the one I tried to remove :P)
13:50	ibdknox	righto
13:50	ibdknox	I figured the this cannot be undone and the REMOVE made it scary enough. I will make it scarier. :D
13:51	mdeboard	ibdknox: Scarier and more descriptive of the behavior I'd say
13:52	zilti	Are 32-bit-programs on windows 7 able to "see" and call 64bit-programs?
13:54	mdeboard	ibdknox: I guess I was unthinkingly using LT, and thought of it as simply a view on my code, disconnected (after loading it into memory) from the files themselves. Like once it's loaded, it's a new entity, and all changes that I make are to this new entity, not the old stuff. Now that I've given it a few minutes of thought that's pretty silly, but that's why I was surprised to find out it deletes the file.
13:55	ibdknox	mdeboard: yeah I get where you're coming from
14:02	ivan	zilti: yes, though sometimes you have to turn off redirection or use C:\windows\sysnative
14:03	robink	After adding [noir "1.2.2"] in a project.clj that also specifies [org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"] in :dependencies, after running lein deps, I get an environment with Clojure 1.3.0 when running 'lein repl'.
14:03	robink	Am I doing something wrong?
14:05	nz-	robink: try lein deps :tree?
14:05	robink	nz-: OK
14:05	firesofmay	I am unable to install clj-http. Here's the gist of lein deps output : https://gist.github.com/3388644. :-/
14:05	nz-	and see where the clojure 1.3.0 is coming from
14:05	robink	nz-: noir is pulling in clojure 1.3.0
14:06	robink	nz-: I was hoping my requirement of clojure 1.4.0 in project.clj :dependencies would clobber noir's requests for an earlier Clojure version.
14:07	nz-	robink: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/736
14:08	nz-	that is similar issue
14:09	nz-	so noir has this [org.clojure/clojure "[1.2.1],[1.3.0]"]
14:10	nz-	meaning that it must have one of those versions, and it overrides your [org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]
14:10	nz-	what happens if you set it to [org.clojure/clojure "[1.4.0]"] in your pom.xml?
14:13	robink	nz-: Ah, OK
14:13	robink	nz-: Probably would be fixed.
14:13	robink	nz-: I'm using :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure] right now.
14:13	robink	nz-: Which also works.
14:14	nz-	and upgrading to noir 1.3.0-xxx would also work
14:14	robink	nz-: Ah, OK
14:15	robink	Also notice that org.cemerick/friend wants clojure 1.3.0
14:16	robink	(0.0.9, current version on clojars)
14:18	nz-	actually if you set clojure version to "[1.4.0]" lein probably says that it can't be found
14:19	nz-	and downloads about 20 different clojure-1.3.0 alpha and beta versions as a side effect
14:20	robink	nz-: Ah. Why would it say that it couldn't be found?
14:21	nz-	don't know
14:21	nz-	downloading those versions is aslo odd
14:21	robink	I see
14:22	nz-	I think that is probably should say that main project.clj wants clojure 1.4.0 and noir want either 1.2.1 or 1.3.0 and those are not compatible -> error
14:23	robink	nz-: However, if any dependency requries an earlier version of clojure that's the one I get.
14:25	nz-	http://www.sonatype.com/books/mvnref-book/reference/pom-relationships-sect-project-dependencies.html#pom-relationships-sect-version-ranges
14:26	nz-	it is not about earlier or later version: Version number like "1.4.0" means that use 1.4.0 if possible, but use something else if not possible. "[1.4.0]" means that use that exact number
14:26	robink	nz-: Ah, and the packages pulling in Clojure 1.2,1.3 etc are doing the latter?
14:27	nz-	yes
14:27	robink	nz-: Ah, OK. So leiningen is doing exactly what it should.
14:27	robink	nz-: Which makes me mildly annoyed at the authors of those packages.
14:30	robink	Also interestingly, some packages don't show as pulling in an older version of clojure until you've added :exclusions [org.clojure/clojure] to other packages first.
14:31	nz-	robink: there is this issue, that should make lein warn about this: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/734
14:32	robink	nz-: Also, aleph simply stating clojure 1.3.0 as a dependency (without a range) is enough to make leiningen use clojure 1.3.0.
14:36	robink	Lastly, Leiningen is stating that data.json pulls in clojure 1.3.0, but nowhere in data.json 0.1.3's pom.xml does it list Clojure as a dependency in either a range or a single version.
14:37	uvtc	What is being used to generate these API docs: http://weavejester.github.com/compojure/ ?
14:38	weavejester	uvtc: Codox: https://github.com/weavejester/codox
14:38	uvtc	Thanks, weavejester .
14:39	nz-	robink: data.json pom.xml refers to org.clojure/pom.contrib "0.0.25", maybe it is in there
14:40	robink	nz-: Why is it not listed as a dependency of org.clojure/pom.contrib "0.0.25"?
14:40	nz-	robink: it uses pom.contrib as a parent => it inherits everything from that pom
14:40	robink	nz-: Ah, OK
14:41	nz-	aleph uses this :multi-deps thing, I don't know what that actually does
14:41	robink	nz-: Ah, OK
14:49	robink	Finally
15:08	xeqi	firesofmay: hmm, I see some of the dependencies in central's search http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails\|org.apache.httpcomponents\|httpclient\|4.2.1\|jar
15:08	xeqi	so it should be working, but central has been having some problems lately
15:09	xeqi	oh, but the "name or service unknown" in that output is weird
15:09	firesofmay	xeqi oh okay. I have opened a thread in clojure group so that others get to know as well.
15:09	firesofmay	xeqi, I have never seen such output before. :-/
15:10	xeqi	can you hit that with a browser?
15:10	firesofmay	xeqi, the link you posted? yeah I can.
15:10	xeqi	sorry, http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/
15:11	firesofmay	xeqi, server not found.
15:11	firesofmay	for http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/
15:11	xeqi	there the problem, for some reason you can't access it, but others are working
15:11	firesofmay	xeqi, you can access it?
15:11	xeqi	yeah
15:11	firesofmay	strange
15:12	xeqi	yeah, this is a bit beyond my ability to debug unfortunatly :/
15:12	xeqi	unless its something simple like /etc/hosts pointing it to the wrong spot
15:12	firesofmay	xeqi, no problem. Thanks for your help. Even I am not sure what's wrong.
15:12	TEttinger2	can someone explain to me how :sort works in congomongo?
15:13	TEttinger2	in the (fetch) function, you can pass :sort as an option
15:13	TEttinger2	but I have no idea how to tell it what to sort by
15:13	firesofmay	xeqi, i have nothing in my /etc/hosts so that can't be it.
15:14	xeqi	setting up a /etc/hosts entry for it to 93.184.215.223 might be a workaround
15:15	xeqi	thats the ip I get back from a wget real quick
15:16	firesofmay	so if i do http://93.184.215.223/maven2 in the browser to check should it work?
15:16	firesofmay	xeqi, ^
15:17	xeqi	well, maybe not.. its a cdn ip :/
15:17	firesofmay	xeqi, oh ok.
15:19	xeqi	hmm, looks like they try and detect the servername and send the right files
15:19	firesofmay	xeqi, i think i'll wait for sometime. maybe its an area wise issue.
15:43	amalloy	TEttinger2: look up how to sort in mongodb, and then just pass the "clojure version" of the json map it wants
15:44	TEttinger2	amalloy, I think I got it (not sure)
15:44	TEttinger2	I passed it a map of :sort to -1 to sort in descending order
15:46	michaelr525	hello
15:47	ebaxt	so far I've found three mustache implementations in clojure, which one should I use? :)
15:48	uvtc	ebaxt: Not sure all of those are actually the templating library.
15:48	uvtc	I think you want https://clojars.org/de.ubercode.clostache/clostache
15:49	ebaxt	clostache, stencile and https://github.com/shenfeng/mustache.clj
15:50	ebaxt	uvtc: and to add to the confusion the cgrand's ring dsl :)
15:51	uvtc	The one I have listed at the [Dining Car](http://unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/dining-car.html) is Clostache. If you have something you'd recommend over that, for a specific reason, please let me know. :)
15:52	ebaxt	utvc: I haven't tried either of them :) Have you tried stencile?
15:53	amalloy	uvtc: dsantiago claims that stencil (his) is spec-compliant, while the others aren't even aware there is a spec
15:54	xeqi	see https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/clojure/2dRbv-S0UuQ for some discussion on spec issues
15:54	uvtc	grazie
15:54	xeqi	I would end up usuing stencil myself
15:55	xeqi	mainly just cause Raynes has prefiltered the choices
15:55	uvtc	Raynes-prefiltering is always nice.
15:55	amalloy	i let him pre-chew my food for me
15:56	xeqi	gotta make sure its not poisoned
15:56	uvtc	tee he he :)
16:05	xeqi	is there a listing of old conj talks?
16:06	xeqi	was hoping to find an archived "schedule" page to remind myself what was talked about
16:06	uvtc	Clostache also claims spec-compliance in the readme: https://github.com/fhd/clostache. I don't know what it means by "supporting lambdas" though.
16:07	uvtc	Added Stencil to the Dining Car.
16:07	uvtc	Also submitted pulls-request to add a :url to the project.clj for stencil (so the Clojars page links back to the github page).
16:08	Cr8	rather than regular mustache
16:08	uvtc	Cr8: Which variant do you end up using?
16:08	Cr8	well, with Javascript anyway.
16:08	uvtc	Ah.
16:09	Cr8	I'll use hogan or handlebars, mostly for the ability to use the parent context inside of a conditional thing
16:10	Cr8	even though the maintainer of mustache.js is a coworker
16:12	Cr8	for clojure i usually use something geared toward what i'm outputting.. hiccup for HTML
16:31	mdeboard	ibdknox: I am encountering an issue trying to add this last function from the ns browser to the code document: http://ubuntuone.com/6BaDG5QfJS6HNd3bxTDyq9 The `(map...)' expr right before it is a new thing I added in LT. If I move the `(pdf<-)' expr above the map expr, it is copied to the code document consistently. Am I doing it wrong or is this an issue
16:32	mdeboard	I see, nevermind. It looks like one of the code blocks had focus so I couldn't get it to move over.
16:32	ibdknox	mdeboard: I just released 0.1.1 which fixes a number of issues people ran into
16:35	mdeboard	ibdknox: cool
16:35	mdeboard	"This will remove the file" :D
16:38	mdeboard	geeking out over here
16:40	mdeboard	Really the only thing that would conceivably stand in my way of using this to work on Clojure projects is the in-line documentation that is present in clojure-mode/slime
16:41	the-kenny	+it should work in Emacs :)
16:41	the-kenny	(Nevermind my trolling here. I think Light Table is a great piece of work, especially for teaching people Clojure)
16:43	mdeboard	the-kenny: What should work in Emacs?
16:44	the-kenny	Everything Light Table offers! :p Nah, I'm just trolling
16:44	mdeboard	oic
16:44	mdeboard	Yeah I think it was a wise decision to "decomplect" Clojure and Emacs
16:45	the-kenny	mdeboard: Yup, that's always good. It's also a very nice tool for starting Clojure. It's the "It just works" solution for everyone who's interested
16:46	mdeboard	true that
16:47	the-kenny	I'm also pretty curious about "Domain specific UIs". Think of previewing database queries from Congomongo, or korma-queries visualizing the JOINs
16:48	the-kenny	Or (I forgot the name) the library for neural networks
16:49	mdeboard	ibdknox: Is it possible/feasible to load all the namespace definitions for a project when you connect in the Table context? Such that as soon as I connect I can use any given function in my project without having to add a namespace definition to my code doc, then evaluate it.
16:51	mdeboard	I demand more features for my free version of your alpha software
16:51	ibdknox	mdeboard: hm, it's supposed to do that already - I'll have to see what I broke
16:51	mdeboard	Maybe I'm just doing it wrong, that's been the pattern so far
16:58	mdeboard	Bummed it's closed source, I'd like to contribute.
17:02	ibdknox	it'll make it there
17:02	ibdknox	just not yet - still too much in flux
17:04	Raynes	amalloy: Clostache has been spec compliant for a while now. It's still mighty slow compared to
17:04	Raynes	stencil.
17:04	Raynes	ibdknox: I can't remember how the light table tutorial told me to add a function.
17:04	Raynes	ibdknox: Teach me.
17:06	ibdknox	Raynes: there was a bug that messed things up. It's fixed in 0.1.1 - just type ( at the bottom of an editor
17:06	Raynes	ibdknox: Ah, yeah, I tried that and it didn't work, so I wasn't sure.
17:06	Raynes	Cool.
17:07	Raynes	ibdknox: How do I update now? Download the new jar, or...
17:07	tomoj	Raynes: have you by chance tried clostache with PersistentProtocolBufferMap
17:07	Raynes	tomoj: dsantiago is the one who benchmarks them.
17:07	Raynes	But really, what does it matter? Stencil is there and it is fast.
17:07	tomoj	oh, I hadn't seen stencil
17:07	Raynes	People keep making these things and I have no clue why.
17:08	Raynes	:p
17:08	tomoj	I couldn't get clostache to work with pbufs without (into {} %) (which was OK)
17:11	amalloy	tomoj: whuuuut. i guess i don't really know what clostache is for, but PPBMs should act like maps in all the ways i can think of
17:12	tomoj	hmm.. the problem was that extension fields were missing
17:13	tomoj	I should be sure I wasn't using my broken patch of clojure-protobuf
17:14	amalloy	i mostly don't know what extension fields are, but if seqing over the pbuf works, it's hard to see what clostache could do that doesn't work
17:17	Raynes	ibdknox: You should figure out how to make a .app out of the light table stuff.
17:19	Cr8	oh heck yeah, 0.1.1 fixes my main complaint :)
17:20	Raynes	ibdknox: I'm going to code in light table for a few minutes once it finishes updating. I'm damn near tingly.
17:27	firesofmay	How do I set the platform to "WINDOWS" when I am trying to run Selenium Grid using clj-webdriver?
17:30	mattmoss	clojure-jack-in needs sound effects...
17:30	casion	mattmoss: that's not hard to do
17:31	mattmoss	casion: I imagine emacs playing sounds is there, somewhere. Heck, it folds my laundry, washes the windows and fuels up the car, so what else can't it do? (M-x butterfly)
17:32	casion	(play-sound)
17:32	clojurebot	Huh?
17:32	mattmoss	Heh.
17:32	casion	just hook it into clojue-lack-in
17:32	casion	except maybe type it properly
17:32	Raynes	ibdknox: Looks like switching namespaces doesn't work properly.
17:32	mattmoss	lol..
17:33	Raynes	ibdknox: When I switch, it isn't completely switching, it's adding stuff and not removing the old namespace's stuff.
17:33	ibdknox	Raynes: hm? in the document? That's the point :)
17:33	mdeboard	Raynes: Do you mean it's not removing it from the code doc or
17:34	Raynes	ibdknox: If I double click foo.bar and it adds the code on the left and then double click foo.baz, it's supposed to just add it underneath the stuff from foo.bar?
17:34	Raynes	If that's expected then I apparently don't know how light table works at all.
17:36	mdeboard	Raynes: I don't think that's a weird thing for you to expect tbh, and I think it's reinforced by the fact the namespace definitions for the connected project aren't automatically loaded into memory, so you have to add an entire namespace to the code doc, then evaluate each block individually. Then if you want to move to another codeblock you need to hit C-S-d to clear the code doc, then load all that into memory.
17:37	Raynes	I'm not sure I understood anything you just said.
17:38	mdeboard	Raynes: My expectation was that when you connected to an existing project, you wouldn't have to manually evaluate each individual closure in order to use it in the scratch area.
17:38	Raynes	That apparently isn't the case.
17:38	mdeboard	Raynes: Also, C-S-d to clear your code doc.
17:39	mdeboard	Raynes: I got the impression from ibdknox that was the case but it was recently broken
17:39	Raynes	shrug
17:40	Raynes	All I know is that I just loaded a namespace into the 'doc' and it was available in scratch.
17:40	Raynes	Anyways, I guess if I can clear the document it's fine, but I still don't get why you'd want to put a bunch of namespaces underneath each other over there.
17:40	Raynes	That's just confusing.
17:41	mdeboard	Raynes: "When you open something on the table, it's added to a document that acts as though all of those things were in a single file. This means you can build up a context and work in it just like you would if file organization mapped cleanly to functionality. It's time we started working with our code in more logical units; as problems to be solved."
17:41	mdeboard	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/08/17/light-table-reaches-010/
17:42	mdeboard	so that in particular is deliberate
17:42	Raynes	Okay.
17:42	Raynes	I guess I misunderstood things.
17:46	ibdknox	Raynes: it's an experiment - I'm not sure if it works or not. I toyed with the idea of having an NS opening just reset the thing to that NS
17:46	Raynes	That's what I expected.
17:46	Raynes	I mean, you can clear the doc -- it isn't a big deal.
17:46	ibdknox	but individual editors would not
17:46	ibdknox	err
17:46	ibdknox	functions
17:47	ibdknox	I wanna see what people think, but my suspicion is it'll move that direction
17:47	Raynes	We need paredit and git integration.
17:47	Raynes	:p
17:47	ibdknox	truth
17:48	Raynes	Obviously you have more important things to worry about.
17:48	ibdknox	I'm excited about the stuff we'll be able to do with git integration
17:48	ibdknox	:)
17:48	casion	CVS too!
17:48	Raynes	What's cool is that you've already got what you need to do selective staging, ibdknox.
17:49	Raynes	The function blocks in the document will work just fine for that, I think.
17:49	ibdknox	Raynes: yep :)
17:49	Raynes	And that's probably one of the hardest parts.
17:49	mdeboard	casion: :\|
17:49	casion	ibdknox: is having the UI resize logically a high priority?
17:49	casion	mdeboard: muahahaha!
17:49	ibdknox	casion: resize logically?
17:49	Raynes	ibdknox: I really like it. I mean, I can't write code in it for shit because it doesn't (at least) close brackets for me, but...
17:49	Raynes	It's awfully fun.
17:50	ibdknox	:)
17:50	casion	ibdknox: yeah, it seems to not handle window resizing very well
17:50	ibdknox	yeah, people used to paredit will have to wait a bit before it'll suit them
17:50	ibdknox	casion: can you give an example?
17:50	bosie	watching simple made easy by rich hickey
17:50	bosie	and i am wondering what he means by "data"
17:50	casion	sure, let me open it up real quick
17:50	ibdknox	casion: bigger or smaller? Bigger should be fine, but you can only reasonably make it so small
17:50	mdeboard	casion, ibdknox: The result window for the scratch pane seems to resize
17:50	mdeboard	resize in a good way
17:51	bosie	meaning i have a hash there instead of...what?
17:51	Raynes	ibdknox: Will it ever be possible to use light table to like one-off edit a file?
17:52	ibdknox	Raynes: yeah, it'll get there eventually
17:52	Raynes	</questions>
17:52	jballanc	any vim users around? what plugin(s) are you using for Clojure?
17:52	bosie	jballanc: haven't found a good one
17:52	foodoo	jballanc: vimclojure and tslime
17:52	jballanc	that's what I was afraid of
17:53	jballanc	yeah, I'm using vimclojure and slimv
17:53	jballanc	but they step all over eachother
17:53	foodoo	jballanc: didn't experience any conflicts with my setup
17:53	foodoo	do you know tmux?
17:54	jballanc	yeah, I've played with tslime
17:54	casion	ibdknox: only the left portion resizes for me at all in table
17:54	casion	in irepl it's fine
17:54	jballanc	somehow, tmux just seems like a not-really-there substitute for slim(e/v)+swank
17:55	jballanc	although I heard rumor that I should be using nrepl instead of swank
17:55	foodoo	could be. I'm not really acquainted with Emacs
17:55	Raynes	Rumor has it slime ain't got your love anymore.
17:56	jballanc	well, rumor also had it that light-table might get vim bindings ;-)
17:56	Raynes	It already has them to some extent.
17:56	Raynes	codemirror has a vim mode.
17:56	Raynes	Not sure how well it works.
17:56	Raynes	But codemirror has it and since light table uses it...
17:56	jballanc	hmm...
17:56	Raynes	I imagine you'll be able to turn things like that on at some point.
17:57	mdeboard	jballanc: You could always write a chrome extension that monkey patches the bindings
17:57	Raynes	The most important part is that you can contribute to make the editor better anytime you want.
17:57	Raynes	Just go contribute to codemirror.
17:57	ibdknox	casion: I'm not sure I believe you ;) Both are set to percentage widths, but the right side will expand much slower since it's a lower percentage
17:57	ibdknox	Raynes: someone actually creatively figured out a way to turn it on in LT now :)
17:58	@Chouser	codemirror vim bindings were a bit of a joke, last I checked
17:58	ibdknox	Chouser: they've gotten better
17:58	ibdknox	still a ton of work to do
17:58	@Chouser	oh, good
17:58	ibdknox	but they are much better
17:59	@Chouser	yeah -- I'm working in emacs + evil now, so I see all the work they're doing to add vim bindings to a fully function editor
18:00	ibdknox	alright, gotta go guys
18:00	casion	ibdknox: It's because of a simbl plugin I have apparently
18:00	casion	it works fine when I remove it
18:01	mdeboard	ibdknox: Back to the code mines
18:01	bosie	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy/ is there (simple) code showcasing his last 6 points?
18:02	mdeboard	bosie: Which points are those?
18:03	bosie	mdeboard: well, he names them "who, what, when, where, why and how"
18:03	bosie	for abstraction for simplicity (49:39)
18:04	jballanc	hmm...light table needs fullscreen for OS X :/
18:04	Raynes	ibdknox: I'm using light table to add search methods to tentacles.
18:04	jballanc	wait
18:04	jballanc	found it
18:04	jballanc	:)
18:06	mdeboard	bosie: Seems fairly straightforward to infer from context ( I just rewatched)
18:06	bosie	mdeboard: then i am dumb
18:07	jballanc	is there a list of keyboard shortcuts for light table somewhere?
18:07	mdeboard	bosie: What I get from it is that when you're designing your abstractions, keep in mind how your data will be accessed, under what conditions, at what times, by whom
18:08	bosie	mdeboard: right but how do you avoid merging how and what
18:08	bosie	mdeboard: i imagine the java-equivalent would be interfaces?
18:08	bosie	mdeboard: which he says is not good
18:10	jballanc	ah, found it... it's the "^" in the corner
18:10	mdeboard	bosie: I don't have a good answer for you nor an example from the real world. It's like the definition of obscenity: I'll know it when I see it.
18:10	atsidi	Darn. I was hoping to get LB working, but I get "Exception in thread "main" javax.net.ssl.SSLPeerUnverifiedException: peer not authenticated"
18:10	atsidi	the shell script worked, but nothing since the jar format has... Sigh...
18:11	bosie	mdeboard: same with the "why". rules? what? how can you have the why in one place, somehow defined with rules.
18:11	bosie	mdeboard: good for you ;)
18:12	Raynes	ibdknox: Haha, I can't edit my project.clj in light table?
18:12	Raynes	Yikes.
18:12	Raynes	I guess that falls under the one-off-file category.
18:13	mdeboard	bosie: I imagine the 'why' of abstraction design (pulling this out of my ass) would have to do with, like, shaping the data so that it reflects the reason the consumer is requesting the data.
18:13	bosie	mdeboard: which makes sense in the context of rules
18:14	bosie	mdeboard: wondering how you would isolate those rules and how specifically one actually writes rules
18:16	mdeboard	In the context of that talk I believe he was talking about logic programming e.g. Prolog
18:16	bosie	correct
18:17	bosie	mdeboard: actually it says "libraries, prolog"
18:17	jballanc	Raynes: I was able to edit a project.clj by clicking twice on the top-level namespace
18:17	jballanc	(in the namespace browser)
18:18	Raynes	Really? Cool.
18:18	bosie	so you guys have beta access to light table?
18:18	jballanc	bosie: it's open to everyone
18:19	jballanc	http://app.kodowa.com/playground
18:19	Cr8	ack
18:19	Cr8	where's undo? =P
18:19	mdeboard	bosie: There's lots of great course notes from Stanford, Princeton, etc., on abstraction design classes if you google "designing abstractions"
18:19	mdeboard	Cr8: C-z
18:20	mdeboard	bosie: I'm reading http://www.stanford.edu/~ouster/CS349W/lectures/abstraction.html atm :P
18:20	bosie	mdeboard: first thing that popped up
18:21	mdeboard	ya :P
18:21	mdeboard	i'm lazy
18:22	Raynes	light table's scratch thingy isn't giving me any output for (URLEncoder/encode "Dominik Picheta" "UTF-8")
18:22	Raynes	Oh, it has stopped giving me output for anything at all.
18:23	Raynes	Reloading fixed it.
18:23	Raynes	ibdknox: Stop breaking your software.
18:23	Cr8	ahhh
18:23	mdeboard	I demand features for this free software!
18:23	Cr8	my fingers were in the wrong place
18:23	Cr8	i'd been hitting alt-z
18:24	Cr8	which .. inserts omegas
18:24	mdeboard	Cr8: You should consult a physician
18:24	Raynes	I am the alpha and the omega. The black and the white.
18:27	jballanc	aside from a bit of key-binding schizophrenia, this is actually really neat!
18:27	jballanc	kudos ibdknox and team!
18:36	mdeboard	What LT really needs is better IRC integration
18:53	Raynes	ibdknox: Light table has managed to lose the code I've written twice in a row now. Not sure what is going on, but it completely broke.
18:57	mdeboard	Raynes: How do you mean lose? I just had an issue where I made a change to a code block, removed it from the code doc, brought it back then tried to save (the change I made was still there), but it wasn't actually modifying the file.
18:57	mdeboard	What I'm asking is, did you make a change to a block, remove it from the code doc then put it back?
18:58	Raynes	mdeboard: I mean I wrote a bunch of code (just added it) and then I switched namespaces and came back and the code was gone. I had also tried to evaluate the code, but that stopped working again too. I imagine the two things might be correlated.
18:58	mdeboard	d'oh
19:19	mdeboard	Raynes: By chance did you add lein-light to your profiles.clj
19:24	mdeboard	oops, nm, was reading obsolete blog post
19:32	Cr8	Raynes: i have had that happen a couple times. Now I'm paranoidly cat'ing the file to make sure it saves when I do stuff >>
19:35	sadgur	hi im relatively new to clojure (and fp in general) i have a question about the way to dealing with intermediate values and immutability
19:36	sadgur	basically 50% of the time i want to append the number 4 to a list and then check if this list is different from the original list (which it wil be if the append happens)
19:37	sadgur	the problem is how to refer to this modifed list and compare it to the original which may not be modified at all
19:37	sadgur	if that makes sense
19:38	dnolen	sadgur: what kind of comparison?
19:38	sadgur	just to see if the are equal
19:38	sadgur	the logic is simple its just dealing with immutable values
19:38	uvtc	Hi sadgur. Not quite sure what you mean. Perhaps you could post the code you've already tried to refheap.com?
19:39	sadgur	yeah sure
19:39	sadgur	i might have cracked it bear with :P
19:41	uvtc	sadgur: You cracked it with the bear's help? Excellent.
19:42	uvtc	:)
19:43	sadgur	uvtc: they have paws for thought :)
19:43	uvtc	hahaha
19:44	uvtc	"A bear walks into a bar and says "I'd like a beer and . . . . . . a packet of peanuts."
19:45	sadgur	ha love that joke
19:47	wei_	currently working on a game.. how would you do interactive graphics programming in the repl?
19:48	sadgur	wei_: wait for lighttable?
19:48	wei_	haha. i actually have it open right now
19:51	sadgur	well my problem was trying to create an inner binding but only 50% of the time so i couldnt refer to it outside that scope
19:51	sadgur	but my solution worked fine i just made a function to handle that bit
19:51	sadgur	https://www.refheap.com/paste/4467
19:51	sadgur	trival problem but i'm learning :)
19:52	sadgur	i was trying to store the new list essential but that binding only existed 50% of the time
19:52	sadgur	of course the program does nothing exciting just a test :P
19:53	uvtc	sadgur: Since `list` is a built-in function name, might be better to use a different name there.
19:53	sadgur	yeah i was wonder what the convention was
19:53	sadgur	xs
19:53	sadgur	perhaps
19:53	sadgur	haskell powered
19:53	sadgur	bear-list
19:54	sadgur	what is the convention for things of that sort
19:54	uvtc	Lessee... the docs tend to use "coll".
19:54	hyPiRion	It's not that problematic as long as the function is evident.
19:54	sadgur	well with a domain for the function i could call it "values" or something
19:54	sadgur	depends on what i use it for
19:54	sadgur	go go vim replace
19:54	hyPiRion	It's common to use coll, I suppose.
19:55	sadgur	alright thanks
19:55	aperiodic	wei_: quil!
19:55	aperiodic	wei_: https://github.com/quil/quil
19:55	wei_	aperiodic: thanks, I'll check it out
19:55	aperiodic	dynamically rebind your draw fn to see your changes live, without restarting anything
19:55	aperiodic	it's great fun
19:57	hyPiRion	Ahh, I wonder when people "deprecate" (:use lib), and prefer (:require lib :refer :all) instead
19:58	mdeboard	Hm what am I doing wrong? Clojure is telling me it can't find any of the `clj-itext.*' files on the classpath https://gist.github.com/3390408 but all the files, including the one I pasted that snippet from, are in src/clj-itext/
19:59	mdeboard	and each of the files has `(ns clj-itext.foo ... )' at the top.
19:59	mdeboard	$foo* :)
20:00	Cr8	mdeboard: "clj_itext" would be the dir
20:00	Cr8	,(munge "clj-itext")
20:00	clojurebot	"clj_itext"
20:00	Cr8	munge is the fn used to convert namespace names to dirs
20:00	mdeboard	Oh dammit
20:00	mdeboard	I'm an idiot
20:01	Cr8	als
20:01	Cr8	*also
20:01	Cr8	,(namespace-munge "clj-itext")
20:01	clojurebot	"clj_itext"
20:02	Cr8	is for namespaces, I forgot
20:02	mdeboard	yeah but
20:02	Cr8	munge is for classes
20:02	mdeboard	for src/foo_bar/baz.clj you can do (ns foo-bar.baz)
20:02	Cr8	right
20:02	mdeboard	Learned this lesson already once, my brain sucks
20:02	uvtc	,(doc munge)
20:02	clojurebot	"([s]); "
20:03	uvtc	Clojurebot, are you making some kind of ascii face at me?
20:03	sadgur	night everyone
20:03	Cr8	source of namespace-munge: (.replace (str ns) \- \_))
20:03	Cr8	source of munge: ((if (symbol? s) symbol str) (clojure.lang.Compiler/munge (str s))))
20:04	uvtc	Cr8: Ah. Right, right. Thanks. :)
20:24	arrdem	I just went to bump my project's version number and realized that I wasn't using any really sane version IDing system and that all of my git-flags were named for the location of the major bug fixed or feature added. I see the X.Y.Z-{RELEASES/STABLE} convention on Clojars... is this defined somewhere?
20:25	Raynes	Cr8: What do you do if it hasn't written the file?
20:25	Raynes	Bleh
20:25	Cr8	Raynes: make a modification and try again.
20:26	cjfrisz	dnolen: sorry for the vague Twitter bug report
20:26	Cr8	it doesn't really seem to get -stuck- in a bad state for me
20:26	Cr8	but every once in a while I'll close a fn and reopen it to find my modifications didn't stick around, even though I thought i'd saved it
20:26	kaoD_	hi
20:27	cjfrisz	Or rather, bug report via Twitter
20:29	dnolen	cjfrisz: heh, did you figure it out?
20:30	cjfrisz	dnolen: No, I still haven't. I just downgraded back to 0.2.0-alpha9 and everything works
20:30	cjfrisz	dnolen: So the error I'm getting is CompilerException java.lang.AssertionError: Assert failed: Unknown predicate in [number?]
20:31	dnolen	cjfrisz: alpha-11 is actually the latest.
20:31	cjfrisz	dnolen: Ooooh, let me give that a shot. The Github page currently says alpha10 is the guy to add to project.clj
20:32	dnolen	cjfrisz: yeah just updated readme, sorry about that.
20:32	dnolen	cjfrisz: not sure if it will make a difference for you.
20:33	dnolen	cjfrisz: seems strange that 10 doesn't work for you - all the changes were CLJS related far as I can tell.
20:33	cjfrisz	dnolen: Still the same issue
20:33	cjfrisz	dnolen: You should be able to reproduce it by running CTCO with the core.match dependency changed to alpha10 or alpha11
20:34	dnolen	cjfrisz: ahh sorry my fault. here's the problem.
20:34	dnolen	cjfrisz: you need to replace :when w/ :guard I think.
20:35	cjfrisz	dnolen: I'll give that a shot
20:35	cjfrisz	Have a second
20:35	dnolen	cjfrisz: updating the README to mention breaking change.
20:35	cjfrisz	dnolen: I figured that it might be a syntax change, but the docs still said :when
20:37	dnolen	cjfrisz: updated the docs, sorry about that.
20:37	cjfrisz	dnolen: That did it! Thanks!
20:37	dnolen	cjfrisz: np.
20:37	dnolen	cjfrisz: apologies for not keeping the docs / readme up to date.
20:40	cjfrisz	dnolen: No easy task, I know
20:40	cjfrisz	dnolen: Lucky for me, there's exactly one "match" in CTCO, so a single query-replace did the job
20:45	xeqi	arrdem: I'm a fan of semantic versioning http://semver.org/
20:46	xeqi	the -SNAPSHOT usually means work in development, that isn't ready for a release, but could be useable
20:53	bmaddy	Does anyone know of any example code that has core.logic working with clojurescript? I'm having a hard time getting it to work.
20:54	dnolen	bmaddy: CLJS core.logic is very, very paired down compared to Clojure JVM version.
20:55	dnolen	bmaddy: the tests in the repo should give you an idea of how to get it working.
20:55	bmaddy	Ahh, good call. Thanks, I'll check that out.
20:57	arrdem	xeqi: thanks. I ran into that page in my googling and didn't take it seriously. re-visiting.
20:57	dnolen	bmaddy: don't forget to require the macros in your ns form, easy source of error.
21:20	bmaddy	Oh geez, I didn't recompile my cljs. smacks-self-on-head
21:20	bmaddy	it seems to be working just fine.
21:20	dnolen	bmaddy: cool
21:21	Frozenlock	Is there a wrapper for most of the javascript functions in cljs?
21:21	dnolen	Frozenlock: what do you mean?
21:22	Frozenlock	Well looking at a js code, I see document.createTextNode
21:22	Frozenlock	Is there a `create-text-node'-like function?
21:22	dnolen	Frozenlock: those aren't JS functions, those are DOM functions. and no those are not wrapped, and they won't be.
21:24	Frozenlock	Oh! So I should call them like in the jvm? (.createTextNode ....)?
21:27	dnolen	Frozenlock: yes
21:27	Frozenlock	Thank you
21:30	symuyn	I'm having trouble getting a good word wrapping string function in Clojure. The only example I can find is at http://langref.org/all-languages/strings/reversing-a-string/textwrap, but it doesn't work for certain strings.
21:30	symuyn	It gives the solution of (re-seq #".{0,70} ")—
21:30	symuyn	,(re-seq #".{0,70} " (apply str (repeat 10 "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. ")))
21:30	clojurebot	("The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps " "over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The " "quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps " "over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The " "quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog. The quick brown fox jumps " ...)
21:31	symuyn	—but that doesn't work for short strings—
21:31	symuyn	,(re-seq #".{0,70} " "A B C")
21:31	clojurebot	("A B ")
21:32	symuyn	(Not to mention, of course, that this is naive about surrogate pairs, diacritics, and other Unicode fun, yeah. I'll probably have to write it all myself, but this should be a fairly common thing…)
21:32	gfredericks	well isn't the issue not the string length but that it always fails at the end?
21:32	symuyn	Oh, good point. Hmm—
21:32	gfredericks	,(re-seq #".{0,70}( \|\Z)" "A B C")
21:32	clojurebot	(["A B C" ""] ["" ""])
21:33	gfredericks	bam
21:33	symuyn	Excellent; thank you very much.
21:34	symuyn	Hmm, I wonder if there's any Java or Clojure stuff for iterating on logical characters, such as surrogate pairs and diacritic-modified characters—I've been using Apple's Objective-C APIs lately, and their Unicode support has spoiled me, heh…
21:35	amalloy	symuyn: you might also like the one that lazybot uses: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/blob/newcontrib/src/lazybot/gist.clj
21:36	symuyn	Wonderful; thank you again.
21:41	Raynes	amalloy: You..
21:41	Raynes	amalloy: You kinda just linked to something really weird.
21:43	Raynes	amalloy: https://github.com/flatland/lazybot/blob/develop/src/lazybot/paste.clj isn't this the same thing?
21:43	Raynes	Only with a better pastebin.
21:44	gfredericks	what does [] accomplish in a regex?
21:44	amalloy	usually indicates the author has made an error
21:44	gfredericks	oh the ] must be a literal
21:45	amalloy	oh, sure, if there's another ] later
21:45	amalloy	[][] is supposed to match either square bracket, for example
21:45	gfredericks	I don't think it's obvious that that should work though
21:45	amalloy	(java's regex engine is broken so that it doesn't)
21:45	gfredericks	amalloy: I'm looking at line 8 from your link
21:45	amalloy	gfredericks: it has no meaning otherwise, and it's defined to work, so...?
21:45	gfredericks	amalloy: reasonable definitely
21:46	amalloy	i seem to be matching any 50-70 characters, along with any trailing ])\|" characters
21:47	gfredericks	right
21:47	gfredericks	I was only surprised at the []
21:48	amalloy	an important part of the perl philosophy: no syntactic construct left behind! any combination of characters that can plausibly be given meaning, must mean something :P
21:49	gfredericks	ha
21:50	gfredericks	by that logic should ()) match closing parens?
21:50	gfredericks	(and capture it)
21:51	Frozenlock	Cljs makes me realize how I've been spoiled with clojure-swank.
21:51	gfredericks	I can imagine [] beinge unhelpful for dynamically generated regexes
21:51	amalloy	gfredericks: no good because of context, though: ()) might be preceded by a (
21:52	gfredericks	these context free grammars sure are context sensitive
21:52	amalloy	gfredericks: imagine if []abcd] didn't work, though. you'd have to write (?:]\|[abcd])
21:52	gfredericks	why not [\]abcd]?
21:52	amalloy	oh, i guess that's probably true
21:53	amalloy	&(re-seq #"[\]]" "ab[]")
21:53	lazybot	⇒ ("]")
21:53	gfredericks	I don't even know what the ?: is supposed to do
21:54	Frozenlock	Annnnnnnd I just killed my repl. (keys (ns 'dom.test)) was a bad idea.
21:54	amalloy	gfredericks: without it you'd be creating a capturing group
21:54	gfredericks	ooh that yes
21:55	gfredericks	I always forget about that functionality since it isn't strictly necessary
21:56	gfredericks	it just occurred to me that not only do backreferences allow regexes to describe more than just regular languages, I think they also cause the regexes themselves to not be context-free
21:56	uvtc	How close are Java regexes to Perl 5 regexes?
21:56	amalloy	uvtc: very close, but not identical
21:57	amalloy	gfredericks: yes, a lot of atrocious stuff has gotten packed into regexes
21:58	uvtc	Ok, ok. Thanks. That's what I thought, re. regexes: Perl 5 ≅ Python ≅ Java ≅ PCRE.
21:58	uvtc	s/Ok/Oh/ :)
22:03	uvtc	Oh, the docs for java.util.regex.Pattern have a "Comparison to Perl 5" section.
22:22	uvtc	For a compojure project using the lein-ring plug-in, can I start the project while at the same time have access to the repl?
22:30	xeqi	uvtc: not that I'm aware of
22:31	uvtc	Thanks, xeqi.
22:31	xeqi	though you could start a repl and call run-jetty with :join? false
22:31	uvtc	Ah, right. Instead of using `lein ring server`.
22:37	casion	,(= (1) [1])
22:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
22:37	casion	derp
22:37	casion	,(= ('1) [1])
22:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
22:37	casion	whatever
22:38	chouser	,(= '(1) [1])
22:38	clojurebot	true
22:38	casion	can't even type, thinking is probably not my forte right now
22:38	chouser	:-)
22:38	casion	I had no idea that would be true :\|
22:39	casion	back to the book I guess
22:41	zeromodulus	why are single segment namespaces discouraged in clojure? e.g. hello-world.core preferred over hello-world.
22:44	xeqi	because when they are compiled into a java class they end up in the default package
22:44	xeqi	which is discouraged cause it causes problems.. with importing ? I don't remember the specific
22:44	uvtc	clojurebot should have an answer for that one.
22:45	uvtc	~single-segment-namespaces
22:45	clojurebot	I don't understand.
22:45	uvtc	~namespaces
22:45	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
22:45	uvtc	(funny: "without a period in it", and it leaves off the period at the end of the sentence. :) )
22:47	amalloy	zeromodulus: hello.world is better than either of those. not single-segment, and doesn't introduce a meaningless .core suffix
22:48	chouser	Yeah, I've never been a fan of library .core namespaces
22:48	chouser	I think something at the top level to disambiguate is wise. zeromdoules.hello-world
22:50	gfredericks	core.core.core.core
22:56	uvtc	What is the terminology for that core.clj file that hello-world.core refers to? "the core module of the hello-world library"?
23:00	gfredericks	(ns core.core (:require [core.core.core :as core])) (defn core [core] core)
23:08	Raynes	I've never been a fan of the weird domain crap java people do.
23:08	uvtc	Seems like "core" is a good name choice for libs that contain more than one ... module. As good a name to standardize on as any. Maybe "main".
23:08	Raynes	com.mysite.freewebs.geocities.lol.im.putting.there.here.cuz.i.can.JavaFactory
23:09	gfredericks	Raynes: if it didn't produce so much FS depth would it be less annoying?
23:09	Raynes	No.
23:09	chouser	I prefer using the top level to disambiguate, and the inner level to name what it's actually for.
23:10	Raynes	I don't know what I'd use for 'core' in half of my libraries.
23:10	gfredericks	uvtc: in my head "main" means "the first thing that runs" in some context or another
23:10	Raynes	conch.usethistoshellout
23:10	gfredericks	Raynes: fs.core could be a core namespace
23:10	uvtc	Hm. So, maybe use project-name.core for libs, and project-name.main for apps? ...
23:10	Raynes	fs.filesystemstuffisinhere
23:11	chouser	stll don't like it
23:11	gfredericks	uvtc: that sounds totally reasonable. I'm not a core hater.
23:11	chouser	uvtc.project-name
23:11	Raynes	Blugh.
23:11	Raynes	And when the project changes hands?
23:11	uvtc	chouser: but I may not maintain project-name forever.
23:11	Raynes	Keep the namespace and be a liar?
23:12	RylandAlmanza	Anyone have experience writing android applications in clojure?
23:12	uvtc	immortality!
23:12	chouser	who cares?
23:12	chouser	sure
23:12	Raynes	I care.
23:12	chouser	the point is to not trample on fs
23:12	Raynes	I'd be maintaining miki.fs right now using your naming scheme.
23:12	chouser	you and I both make a namespace fs, and now nobody can use them in the same JVM
23:13	chouser	that matters a lot more than whose name is on the front
23:13	Raynes	Well, don't name a project fs since there already is one. shrug
23:13	gfredericks	chouser: I agree with you. does this make us conservatives?
23:13	chouser	so better yet come up with an actual clever/unique name
23:13	Raynes	Maybe we should use UUIDs as namespace prefixes then.
23:13	Raynes	But they could clash at some point.
23:14	chouser	gfredericks: heh. according to the definition Yegge provided, or the one he actually uses?
23:14	chouser	Raynes: if you prefer.
23:14	gfredericks	provided
23:14	uvtc	The Perl community has a neat way of dealing with it. One person uses Bicycle. Another separate lib uses Bicycle::Seat. Someone else, Bicycle::Tires, and still another Bicycle::Seat::MassiveSprings.
23:15	Raynes	chouser: Sorry if I sound like an asshole. I just don't get the big deal. We've been using this for years and I've yet to see any significant problems. Maybe people will start naming all their libraries fs in the future. shrug
23:15	Raynes	I should really rename fs, but I'd hate to change the namespace. People hate when I change fs things. :\|
23:15	gfredericks	Raynes: fo.shiz?
23:16	chouser	Raynes: I'd like people to choose to avoid my libraries because of the state of the code or docs, not because the name conflicts with something else they already have.
23:16	Raynes	I've never had someone mention having that problem with my libraries.
23:17	Raynes	fwiw, fs wasn't my choice of name. It was a single segment namespace when I got it.
23:18	amalloy	Raynes: the clojure community is small. if the java or scala communities were as reckless as we are, there would be conflicts everywhere, and nobody could use clojure because our libs conflict with theirs
23:18	Raynes	Okay, I'm wrong.
23:19	Raynes	I don't bother arguing with amalloy.
23:19	amalloy	ooesn't maven central have a policy on this? like, we won't take your jars if you pick a stupid package name?
23:19	Raynes	chouser will give up and go away. I'd be here all night with amalloy.
23:19	amalloy	you wish
23:19	Raynes	Oooh
23:19	chouser	I'm already gone :-)
23:19	Frozenlock	So what's the moral of the story? How do you name a library?
23:20	amalloy	Frozenlock: right now? recklessly. in the future? we'll probably grow out of it
23:20	gfredericks	&(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 10000))
23:20	lazybot	⇒ "lib-2712"
23:20	Frozenlock	frozenlock.library?
23:20	amalloy	i called one of my first libs amalloy-utils, and people didn't want to use it
23:20	Frozenlock	I would :)
23:20	gfredericks	I usually use my domain name, because raynes hates that
23:20	uvtc	Can I name mine bicycle.seat, and Frozenlock name his more specialized one bicycle.seat.massive-springs, and there will be no problems?
23:20	chouser	I wouldn't actually recommend using your own name for the top level, but it's better than nothing.
23:20	Raynes	Frozenlock: com.frozenlock.(UUID/randomUUID).code.doesstuff
23:21	uvtc	(I mean namespace names, not github project names, nor artifact-id's)
23:21	Raynes	chouser: What would you recommend? Could you nail out something solid? You realize all it takes to get people to change is to change that lein-newnew does by default. It was talked about before but not acted upon.
23:21	gfredericks	wait no I don't. I only do that for maven group-ids.
23:21	Raynes	what*
23:22	amalloy	uvtc: technomancy picks literaty characters or references and makes his "core" namespace first.last, and supporting libs first.last.whatever
23:22	amalloy	not the worst idea ever, but we can't all be so creative
23:22	chouser	Raynes: you do see a difference in risk between somename.fs and just fs, right? Whether you agree that it's too big a risk or not.
23:23	Raynes	I see a risk, but I don't care about it at all.
23:23	Frozenlock	Let's prepend with a bitcoin address. It will almost certainly be unique, and we can tip if we like it.
23:23	Raynes	But that doesn't mean I wont listen to what you have to say.
23:23	Raynes	chouser: Open a new issue about it on lein newnew. Let's talk things over with technomancy and friends and come up with something new.
23:23	Raynes	You can't revolutionize without starting the revolution.
23:24	chouser	I don't care enough to try to start a revolution. Just tossing in my opinion when the topic comes up.
23:25	chouser	See you folks later.
23:25	Raynes	And that folks is why we have the foo.core pattern. Ya'll come back now, ya hear.
23:25	chouser	:-)
23:26	gfredericks	~core
23:28	clojurebot	core is what you put in a namespace when you can't think of a better way to avoid single-segment namespaces.
23:43	Frozenlock	Ok, I want to do this in cljs https://www.circuitlab.com/editor/
23:47	zeromodulus	ooo, just discovered lein repl
23:47	zeromodulus	n.n
23:49	uvtc	zeromodulus: wait 'til you try the tab-completion...
23:49	zeromodulus	I did, hehe, that's why I'm happy about it.
23:50	Frozenlock	Isn't lein repl the most barebone you can get?
23:51	amalloy	Frozenlock: java -jar clojure.jar
23:52	Frozenlock	amalloy: I shiver at the idea of trying that
23:52	uvtc	Frozenlock: I don't think so. lein repl gives you the usual readline keyboard shortcuts, plus tab-completion. It's nice.
23:52	Frozenlock	Oh nice!
23:52	eggsby	Frozenlock: what do you use with cljs? I tried it yesterday with just java interop to google closure and it seemed painful, latest versions of cljs-build and domina don't seem to play nice together either :(
23:53	eggsby	is everyone doing cljs just using noir and pinot together?
23:53	Frozenlock	eggsby: I'm still getting started
23:53	eggsby	ah
23:53	Frozenlock	The DOM stuff is a real pain...
23:54	Frozenlock	At least I have my repl working in inferior-lisp
23:54	Frozenlock	Btw, anyone knows if there's an example of a cljs repl working inside the browser?
23:54	eggsby	To be honest I'm surprised there isn't a slick wrapper over google closure interop yet
23:55	Frozenlock	eggsby: ++
23:55	eggsby	Frozenlock: iirc cljs one has that
23:56	eggsby	http://clojurescriptone.com/ I think
23:57	Frozenlock	I mean with a repl literally on the webpage
23:57	uvtc	Frozenlock: himera?
23:57	uvtc	http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html
23:58	eggsby	^
23:58	Frozenlock	\o/
23:58	Frozenlock	Thanks!
23:58	Frozenlock	I want to know how they do it without `eval'
23:58	eggsby	the source for that is up on github
23:58	uvtc	fogus wrote a blog post about it.
23:59	Frozenlock	Yes, the read will be interesting :)
23:59	Frozenlock	R E P L without eval is like... RPL
23:59	eggsby	lol
23:59	eggsby	R C P L ?