#clojure – 2012-07-26

2012-07-26

00:06	amalloy	gert: no. deftype just defines a java type, which has no slot to store docs on
00:07	gert	thanks amalloy. I wanted to use it to document the particulars of my implementation of a ring SessionStore, but I guess namespace docs and good old comments will do.
00:08	amalloy	out of curiosity, gert, what kind of seesionstore are you implementing?
00:10	gert	one that looks at the session id from the cookie, and checks to see if it looks valid. Also, one that regenerates the session id after (for example) n number of requests, after a certain time, etc.
00:10	gert	to mitigate attacks that tamper with the session id, and to prevent session fixation for example
00:11	gert	and we're storing our session map in a database
03:24	wingy	(Item/query) and (.query Item) is the same in cljs?
03:35	amalloy	no
03:35	xumingmingv	,(defn testit [asym] (var asym))
03:35	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
03:36	xumingmingv	what's wrong with this function definition?
03:36	xumingmingv	repl tells me that asym cannt be resolved
03:37	kral	namaste
03:41	emezeske_	xumingmingv: There's nothing wrong with your function definition; you're calling it with an argument that is not a var
03:42	xumingmingv	the function defimition can not pass compilation
03:43	emezeske_	Oh! var is a special form apparently
03:43	xumingmingv	yeah, var is a special form
03:43	xumingmingv	then?
03:43	emezeske_	Well anyway, asym is not a var
03:43	xumingmingv	so i can not write a function like this?
03:44	emezeske_	What are you trying to do?
04:04	meenal	Hi
04:07	meenal	I would like to know if clojure-contrib is a right choice for handling exceptions in clojure.contrib.condition
04:07	AWizzArd	Clojure Contrib is no more.
04:08	meenal	ok. for exception handling, clojure provides a condition library
04:09	meenal	should i go for it or just create class that extends java's Exception
04:10	AWizzArd	As you wish, but I personally would typically try to avoid subclassing, if there is an easier way to do it in Clojure.
04:11	meenal	If I use this clojure library and produce a jar of my project, will it cause concerns for java interop (when i have to include this small jar module in other java projects)?
04:11	amalloy	$google clojure slingshot exception
04:11	lazybot	[scgilardi/slingshot · GitHub] https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot
04:12	amalloy	^ lets you throw maps and catch exceptions based on data contained in the map
04:14	AWizzArd	amalloy: yes good, that was the thing I wanted to name
04:14	meenal	ok. thank u. I will have a look at slingshot
05:06	tzar	How would I write in a functional manner a function which checks several conditions, and for each condition, if that condition is true a value/transformation is added to a list which is returned at the end?
05:07	tzar	I'm thinking, list of functions which return transformation or nil, map over that list, then remove nils
05:17	tzar	got to run, will go with that approach for now
05:18	clgv	tzar: use keep isntead of map
05:32	xumingmingv	anyone have a look at this: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11666364/clojure-compile-issue
05:36	cemerick	xumingmingv: answered
05:38	xumingmingv	actually what i want to return IS (var asym)
05:38	xumingmingv	what i really want to do is get the type hint of a function's param dynamically
05:39	xumingmingv	so here asym will be a function
05:39	xumingmingv	if i want to get the metadata of a function
05:39	xumingmingv	i need to use: (meta (var asym))
05:40	cemerick	oh, I see, asym is a symbol that names a var?
05:41	cemerick	If so, use `resolve`: ##(meta (resolve '+))
05:41	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
05:41	cemerick	meh
05:41	cemerick	,(meta (resolve '+))
05:41	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name +, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 920, :arglists ([] [x] [x y] [x y & more]), ...}
05:41	cemerick	xumingmingv: ^^
05:42	xumingmingv	haha...resolve is bad...
05:42	xumingmingv	lazybot is more tough than clojurebot? :)
05:43	cemerick	yeah, just different sandbox rules.
06:01	iDesperadO	I have a cross-out fn like (defn (cross-out [p coll] (filter #(not (zero? (rem % p))) coll)), and I want to cross out from a vector every number starting at 2. that's, I got a vector of numbers, say V = (range 1 1000), and I have a number p = 2 and I want to cross out every number that's composite with p. then let p = 3, repeat the previous step...
06:02	iDesperadO	how can i do that?
06:05	zoldar	iDesperadO: so that's basically Eratosthenes Sieve?
06:05	iDesperadO	zoldar: yes
06:05	iDesperadO	zoldar: I'm implementing it
06:06	iDesperadO	zoldar: find I'm kinda lost in loop/recur
06:07	zoldar	iDesperadO: I would try to work something out with iterate given fn and (range 1 n). I suppose there's no need to go down to loop/recur
06:08	iDesperadO	zoldar: what i think is I have to filter the V many times...
06:08	zoldar	iDesperadO: that's what iterate is suitable for
06:08	zoldar	,(doc iterate)
06:08	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
06:09	iDesperadO	ha...exactly
06:10	iDesperadO	let me try it
06:11	seaword	I'm playing round in the repl and can access the value of an item in a hash by either: (:key hash) or (hash :key). Is one way preferred over the other?
06:13	iDesperadO	seaword: I'm afraid the first one is prefered, since a hash's key is itself a function...:)
06:14	clgv	seaword: for keywords use (:key m) for data use (m data). explicitely using get is possible as well (get m data)
06:14	zoldar	iDesperadO: that's rather because keyword implements IFn
06:15	seaword	Ok great, thanks guys. That clarifys it very nicely.
06:20	iDesperadO	zoldar: I'm afraid I still have to use loop/recur
06:21	iDesperadO	(iterate (partial cross-out p) V) ... I have to change p every iteration
06:21	clgv	iDesperadO: maybe you can use reduce then
06:22	iDesperadO	ok, let me see
06:22	clgv	but that only makes sense if you got some input.
06:22	clgv	doess crossout change p?
06:23	iDesperadO	clgv: reduce is an accumulator
06:23	clgv	yeah, you could reduce over the p-collection
06:23	clgv	but only if it is changed outside
06:24	iDesperadO	(defn cross-out [p coll] (filter (= 0 #(rem % p) coll)))
06:24	clgv	ah prime-sieve?
06:24	iDesperadO	yeah
06:24	iDesperadO	I just want to filter V with my cross-out fn
06:25	iDesperadO	but here I have to change p every time
06:25	clgv	do you want to do it on your own? otherwise there are already some clojure examples how to do that
06:26	iDesperadO	I want to do it my own
06:26	iDesperadO	now I just want to know how to change p every time when I apply filter cross-out on some Vector(e.g. (range 2 n))
06:27	clgv	iDesperadO: I would indeed use recursion instead of iterate there
06:28	iDesperadO	so...just go back to the first...I said I'm lost in loop/recur
06:28	iDesperadO	:)
06:29	clgv	because lazy is no advantage for that task and you now exactly when you are finished (recursion base case)
06:30	iDesperadO	I just don't know how to use recursion(loop/recur) here
06:31	iDesperadO	clgv: I don't know how to stop
06:32	iDesperadO	(loop [p 2 coll (range 2 1000)] (if ...?
06:32	clgv	iDesperadO: you can call cross-out recursively. (defn cross-out [p, numbers, primes] ...)
06:33	clgv	you filter through numbers. the first element in numbers is your next prime. if numbers is empty you are done
06:33	clgv	you have to add the next prime to primes.
06:34	davidykay	hey folks, noob question here: I'm writing a web app and dealing with a funny situation where my params map can either have keys of keywords or strings (:_id vs "_id"). is there an easy fix? I can't query the map consistently because of the discrepancy. thanks!
06:34	zoldar	That's my failed attempt: (loop [[f & r] (range 2 1000)] (let [sieved (remove #(zero? (mod % f)) r)] (if (= sieved r) sieved (recur r))))
06:35	zoldar	ahhh
06:35	davidykay	oh ho, "keyword" function. I'll try that
06:36	clgv	iDesperadO: got it? detailed explanation would be the fn implementation ;)
06:36	ro_st	anyone using airbrake?
06:38	iDesperadO	clgv: ....sorry no
06:39	iDesperadO	clgv: still don't get it
06:39	clgv	iDesperadO: you have to separate identified primes and numbers that remain to be filtered. if no numbers remain to be filtered you are done
06:41	iDesperadO	so in your (cross-out numbers primes) for numbers it's (range 2 n), and primes is primes identified and added to it?
06:41	iDesperadO	and when numbers is empty, we got primes as the result?
06:43	iDesperadO	This is just an expression of the algorithm. I just don't know how to filter numbers repeatedly with different parameter
06:44	iDesperadO	zoldar: so... you got it?
06:45	zoldar	,(loop [primes [] [f & r] ((comp rest rest) (range))] (let [sieved (remove #(zero? (mod % f)) r)] (if (= (count primes) 10) primes (recur (conj primes f) sieved))))
06:45	clojurebot	[2 3 5 7 11 ...]
06:45	zoldar	really clunky
06:46	clgv	iDesperadO: you can simply call (recur (first filtered-numbers), filtered-numbers, (conj primes (first filtered-numbers)))
06:47	iDesperadO	zoldar: can't understand your solution
06:48	iDesperadO	clgv: let me try with loop/recur
06:48	clgv	iDesperadO: you dont need loop necessarily.
06:48	iDesperadO	clgv: ah
06:49	clgv	you can also call the function tail recursively
06:49	iDesperadO	clgv: I'm afraid recur is most mysterious function for me
06:50	clgv	iDesperadO: (defn f [p, primes, numbers] (if ... ... (recur p, primes, numbers*)) -> recur just calls f recursively in a non stack consuming way
06:50	clgv	it is a special form - no function
07:41	iDesperadO	zoldar: clgv (defn prime-factors [n] (loop [p 2 coll (range 2 (+ 1 n))] (if (>= p n) coll (recur (inc p) (cross-out p coll))))) given the definition of cross-out as (defn cross-out [p coll] (filter #(not (zero? (rem % p))) coll))...why this prime-factors is not right???
07:41	lazybot	iDesperadO: How could that be wrong?
07:42	iDesperadO	anybody here?
07:44	clgv	iDesperadO: what error do you encounter?
07:45	clgv	iDesperadO: ah lol. (rem x x) => 0
07:45	clgv	iDesperadO: that's why I told you to split into a numbers coll and a primes coll
07:45	iDesperadO	ClassCastException clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number clojure.lang.Numbers.add (Numbers.java:126
07:46	clgv	didnt see that one
07:48	clgv	&(map #(rem % %) (range 2 10))
07:48	lazybot	⇒ (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
07:50	iDesperadO	clgv: I didn't do #(rem % %) I do (rem % p)...
07:51	clgv	iDesperadO: yes but p is in coll. hence you will remove all numbers from coll: primes and non-primes
07:52	clgv	iDesperadO: so you always return an empty coll
07:55	iDesperadO	....
07:55	clgv	iDesperadO: and because of your (inc p) you are not really preforming the prime sieve. you should only use primes to filter and not every natural number
07:57	iDesperadO	clgv: since I don't know how to get the prime
07:58	clgv	clgv: you filter coll with the prime 2. the first number in the resulting coll is prime - in this case 3
08:05	xumingmingv	a silly question, what is a symbol(clojure.lang.Symbol), when do we have to touch directly?
08:05	clgv	xumingmingv: can you be more specific?
08:05	antares_	xumingmingv: when you need to pass a function by name, for example: (map my-fn v)
08:05	antares_	also when you are writing a macro
08:06	antares_	or when you want to extend a protocol for symbols (like serialization), you will extend it for clojure.lang.Symbol (although clojure.lang.Named should be sufficient, too)
08:06	clgv	implicitly: every time you name anything - the reader stores those names as symbols
08:06	xumingmingv	,(defn x [] 1) (symbol? x)
08:06	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:07	xumingmingv	hit the 'SANBOX DENIED" again...
08:07	clgv	&(symbol? 'x)
08:07	lazybot	⇒ true
08:07	xumingmingv	I tried in my laptop
08:07	clgv	&(symbol? 'bla.blubb/x)
08:07	lazybot	⇒ true
08:07	xumingmingv	&(defn x [] 1) (symbol? x)
08:07	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
08:07	clgv	I quoted the names since otherwise the reader would try to resolve them
08:08	clgv	xumingmingv: x will be resolved to that function in this case
08:08	clgv	xumingmingv: you can check that: (defn x [] 1) (fn? x)
08:09	xumingmingv	ah, I understand
08:10	xumingmingv	so (symbol? 'x) is right command to try
08:10	xumingmingv	(symbol? x) returns false, what is the 'x' here?
08:12	xumingmingv	oh, it is a clojure.lang.Fn
08:13	xumingmingv	thanks clgv, antares_ !
08:13	antares_	xumingmingv: that's because x is evaluated
08:13	antares_	xumingmingv: (symbol? 'x)
08:13	antares_	,(symbol? 'x)
08:13	clojurebot	true
08:13	clgv	xumingmingv: (symbol? x) the x here is a symbol. but the reader tries to resolve it on read. that means smybol is called with wathever x is resolved to
08:14	clgv	oh no. reading is fine - evaling is the point ^^
08:15	xumingmingv	much clear, thanks
08:24	xumingmingv	clgv, antares_, what is a function param? is it a symbol, or var? or something else?
08:24	xumingmingv	I mean y in (defn x [y] y)
08:26	clgv	xumingmingv: a local binding
08:26	clgv	similar to the ones defined in let
08:26	xumingmingv	a local binding is a totally different thing from symbol or var?
08:27	antares_	xumingmingv: y is a symbol but it evaluates to a local (or local binding)
08:27	xumingmingv	what is it class? like clojure.lang.Symbol for symbol
08:27	antares_	xumingmingv: symbol is just a name
08:27	clgv	xumingmingv: on compilation it is a symbol. at runtime it is the name for a value
08:27	antares_	what it evaluates to can be anything
08:35	harja	iDesperadO: how about https://gist.github.com/3181751 at least the first 1000 are correct :)
08:36	harja	that was without loop...recur
08:41	xumingmingv	antares_: then function param(a symbol) can be resolved to a var, right? then how do we explain this? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11666364/clojure-compile-issue
08:41	antares_	xumingmingv: to a local
08:41	antares_	vars are namespace-global
08:41	antares_	locals are local to the function
08:42	antares_	if a local and a var happen to have the same name, local takes precedence
08:42	antares_	that is called "shadowing" and it generally should be avoided
08:43	antares_	it is not different from a lot of other languages
08:44	xumingmingv	but in other language like java, if a method can accept anything no matter it is a local variable or a global variable
08:44	xumingmingv	but the special form only accept var, and not local
08:44	xumingmingv	but the special form 'var' only accept var, not local
08:45	iDesperadO	harja: it's so slow
08:45	harja	well that's kind of a given thing since there is no optimizations goin on there
08:48	harja	you can get it a bit faster if you can assume an ordering for the sequence it takes (no need to seek for the maximal element)
08:50	harja	I thought that the original question was that is that sieve doable without loop...recur
08:50	iDesperadO	ok
08:51	iDesperadO	harja: I'm kinda still trying to understand your solution
08:52	iDesperadO	harja: is it reduce supposed to return only a value? now it seems it return a sequence
08:54	harja	Yes, every step returns a value. The value we return is a sequence.
08:55	harja	and that returned value gets fed up to the next function call with the next value from the sequence we are reducing
08:55	harja	so, we are not feeding the actual values as the source sequence, but the filtering values instead
08:55	harja	and the value we return from reduce is the list that was filtered with the given value
08:56	iDesperadO	(reduce f val coll) first consume val and (first coll) applying f to get a result and then apply f with result and (first (rest coll) ...finally returns a value
08:56	harja	yes
08:57	harja	but sequence is a value, it's just something we get as a parameter to our next reduce step
08:57	cemerick	FYI: the 2012 State of Clojure survey closes in 30 minutes. Get your 2¢ in while you still can: http://cemerick.com/2012/07/19/2012-state-of-clojure-survey/
08:57	clgv	cemerick: when will you publish the results?
08:57	cemerick	clgv: sometime next week
08:58	harja	So, every time the reduce calls our function, the function gets as parameters the filtered list and the next number to filter the list on, which gets passed to the next function call
08:59	harja	Btw, I got the execution time to less than half if we assume an ordering in the incoming sequence
08:59	harja	just replace apply max value as (first value) or (last value) depending on the order you assume to get the stuff in
09:00	ro_st	any of you guys use Airbrake?
09:03	antares_	by the way, anybody going to http://amsclj.nl/october.htm? I'm thinking of submitting a talk
09:10	harja	iDesperadO: Check out the gist again. I added three different versions with different assumptions on the data and the timing information on them
09:10	harja	so, there are some differences :)
09:15	iDesperadO	harja: (not-multiples-or-1 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12] 2) returns (2 3 5 7 9 11) containing 2 itself
09:16	iDesperadO	(defn cross-out [p coll] (filter #(and (> % p) (not (zero? (rem % p)))) coll))
09:16	harja	iDesperadO: Yes, it assumes that a number is not a multiple of itselt
09:16	harja	it's just a matter of definition :)
09:16	iDesperadO	(cross-out 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12]) returns (3 5 7 9 11)
09:17	harja	yes, but the way the filtering is done that was easier to do
09:17	harja	and basically it just boils down to how is "n is a multiple of m" defined
09:18	harja	I bent the rules a bit there to make it more convenient to implement
09:19	iDesperadO	harja: i'm thinking about why my cross-out function returns the result not containing 2...
09:19	clgv	iDesperadO: thats because of ##(rem 2 2)
09:19	lazybot	⇒ 0
09:19	craigbro	wow
09:19	ro_st	such a pity you can't wrap enfocus transformation groups with let forms
09:19	craigbro	think I found bug in clojure.string/replace
09:20	iDesperadO	:(
09:20	craigbro	,(clojure.string/replace "/paths/%5c44WINDOW" #"(?:%[0-9A-Fa-f]{2})+" "\\")
09:20	clojurebot	#<StringIndexOutOfBoundsException java.lang.StringIndexOutOfBoundsException: String index out of range: 1>
09:20	iDesperadO	clgv: I've already specified that (> % p) % have to be greater than p
09:22	clgv	thats what excludes 2
09:23	clgv	both in fact^^
09:24	locojay1	hi , how can i use twitter bootstrap function with jayq. (.toolip $( :#myid) (clj->js {:placement :left})) does not work
09:26	clgv	iDesperadO: change it to (or (= % p) (-> % (rem p) zero? not)) to keep p in there
09:28	iDesperadO	harja: I still don't know why (primes-XXX) functions return a sequence
09:28	iDesperadO	clgv: ok
09:30	harja	well, it returns whatever reduce returns?
09:30	harja	and since we build a sequence in the reduce phase, it's what comes out
09:30	clgv	iDesperadO: reduce returns anything you build. if you build a sequence via conj from [] it will return the vector, if you just sum up via + it will return a number
09:31	iDesperadO	ah...
09:32	harja	Playing around in the REPL is the easiest way to go with these things. Just put in stuff and see what comes out :)
09:33	harja	But, got to go away now. Bye!
09:33	iDesperadO	harja: thanks
09:33	iDesperadO	I'm eval all the way to repl...
09:33	iDesperadO	only to find it errs back
09:34	eduard	how to see Locals in backtrace? Emacs, swank-clojure 1.4.4, clojure-jack-in
09:35	clgv	iDesperadO: try to develop small functions step by step testing them in repl while developing
09:36	iDesperadO	ok
09:37	ro_st	eduard: you only see em when you breakpoint. put (swank.core/break) somewhere and run your code
09:37	ro_st	all the locals at that point will appear
09:37	eduard	ro_st, Thanks, will try
09:38	ro_st	when debugging, i usually bind everything into a let and put just the break and the return in the body
09:38	iDesperadO	clgv: thanks a lot
09:40	iDesperadO	clgv: sometimes I find after I read the doc of a function/special form, I don't get better understanding with it
09:40	iDesperadO	like reduce
09:40	iDesperadO	you said I can build anything with reduce
09:40	eduard	ro_st, Is there another way? I don't need breakpoint, I want to find out what arguments function was called with.
09:41	iDesperadO	so I tried (reduce cons (range 1 5))
09:41	ro_st	eduard: then drop a swank.core/break in at the top of the fn body
09:41	ro_st	as the args are locals in that lexical scope, they'll show up at that breakpoint
09:41	clgv	iDesperadO: did you read any introductory book on clojure?
09:41	ro_st	you don't need to let-bind them
09:42	clgv	&(reduce cons '() (range 1 5))
09:42	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long
09:42	clgv	&(reduce conj [] (range 1 5))
09:42	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 4]
09:43	iDesperadO	which book you recommend?
09:43	iDesperadO	clojure programming?
09:43	clgv	cons has a different argument order than reduce expect. so you would need to write the reduce like ##(reduce #(cons %2 %1) '() (range 1 5))
09:43	lazybot	⇒ (4 3 2 1)
09:44	clgv	iDesperadO: I can't recommend what I didnt read. It's the most recent book, though
09:44	iDesperadO	so just recommend what you've read, maybe?
09:44	iDesperadO	:)
09:45	iDesperadO	clgv: how do i know the argument order that reduce expects?
09:45	clgv	iDesperadO: "Programming Clojure" 1st edition. there is a 2nd edition out now. and "Joy of Clojure"
09:46	iDesperadO	clgv: sadly I've read all of them...though very quickly
09:46	iDesperadO	seems I didn't get anything out of those books
09:46	craigbro	hmm
09:46	craigbro	actually, I think it's a bug in clout
09:46	clgv	iDesperadO: humm thats sad but happens
09:46	craigbro	as in, clout needs to quote the decoded value
09:47	cshell	Clojure Programming is the best, in my opinion
09:47	iDesperadO	I guess I just need to write more
09:48	iDesperadO	to be specific, how can i find the arguments order that reduce expect?
09:48	iDesperadO	why cons is not suitable while conj is
09:48	clgv	,(doc reduce)
09:48	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as well, and reduce returns the result of calling f with no arguments. If coll has only 1 item, it is returned and f is not called. If val i...
09:49	iDesperadO	(conj coll x) (cons x coll)
09:49	clgv	exactly
09:49	iDesperadO	this is the different..I've doced them to choose cons for reduce
09:50	clgv	the first param is the previous result or initial value and the second param is the current value from the collection
09:50	iDesperadO	and (reduce f coll)
09:50	iDesperadO	or (reduce f val coll)
09:50	iDesperadO	substitute f with cons...
09:51	iDesperadO	i get (reduce cons val coll) which I seems fit with cons,not conj
09:51	iDesperadO	so ?
09:51	clgv	iDesperadO: it is (reduce (fn [coll, val] (conj coll val)) [] (range 10))
09:52	iDesperadO	clgv: still here?
09:53	clgv	yeah
09:54	iDesperadO	...
09:56	iDesperadO	clgv: not receiving my message?
09:56	cshell	he was responding to you
09:56	cshell	<clgv> iDesperadO: it is (reduce (fn [coll, val] (conj coll val)) [] (range 10))
09:57	iDesperadO	ah...I've missed all his messages
09:58	iDesperadO	but the doc said clojure.core/reduce ([f coll] [f val coll])
09:59	iDesperadO	val comes before the coll
09:59	clgv	iDesperadO: thats the signature of reduce. the signature of the function f is described in the text
10:00	babilen	Does anybody know if/when clojuredocs.org will be upgraded to 1.4?
10:01	iDesperadO	If val is supplied, returns the
10:01	iDesperadO	result of applying f to val and the first item in coll, then
10:01	iDesperadO	applying f to that result and the 2nd item, etc. If coll contains no
10:01	iDesperadO	items, returns val and f is not called.
10:02	iDesperadO	clgv: I can't see what's described in the doc that's said the parameters order of f
10:03	iDesperadO	(source reduce) shows ...(clojure.core.protocols/coll-reduce coll f val)))
10:04	joly	,(reduce - 0 '(1 2 3 4))
10:04	clojurebot	-10
10:05	clgv	iDesperadO: the text translated means first call: (f val (first coll)) oder (f (first coll) (second coll)). after that the result is always the first param and the next element is the second
10:07	iDesperadO	clgv: so with f being cons/conj?
10:08	joly	,(reduce #(conj %1 (+ (last %1) %2)) '(1 2 3 4))
10:08	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
10:08	joly	,(reduce #(conj %1 (+ (last %1) %2)) [] '(1 2 3 4))
10:08	clojurebot	#<NullPointerException java.lang.NullPointerException>
10:08	joly	...
10:09	iDesperadO	,(reduce conj [] (range 1 5))
10:09	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
10:09	joly	,(reduce #(conj %1 (+ (last %1) %2)) [1] '(2 3 4))
10:09	clojurebot	[1 3 6 10]
10:09	iDesperadO	,(reduce cons 1 (range 2 5))
10:09	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
10:12	clgv	&(reduce #(cons %2 %1) '() (range 1 5))
10:12	lazybot	⇒ (4 3 2 1)
10:12	iDespera1O	clgv: I lost my connection
10:12	iDespera1O	....:(
10:12	iDespera1O	twice
10:12	clgv	&(reduce #(cons %2 %1) '() (range 1 5))
10:12	lazybot	⇒ (4 3 2 1)
10:13	iDespera1O	,(reduce cons 1 (range 2 5)
10:13	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:13	iDespera1O	,(reduce conj [] (range 1 5))
10:13	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
10:14	iDespera1O	(reduce cons 1 (range 2 5) not supposed to produce [1 2 3 4]?
10:14	joly	with just conj or cons, I keep having to remember which argument is the collection. I was hoping with my example, it was clearer which order they were provided to the function
10:14	xumingmingv	what does reify create? in bytecode level. a class?
10:15	iDespera1O	joly: (cons x seq)
10:15	iDespera1O	the second is the collection
10:15	clgv	xumingmingv: an anonymous class from your perspective and an instance of it
10:15	iDespera1O	and I didn't see your example
10:15	joly	iDespera1O: yes, I mean in this reduce case
10:15	iDespera1O	can you show me again?
10:16	iDespera1O	I lost my connection twice
10:16	joly	,(reduce #(conj %1 (+ (last %1) %2)) [1] '(2 3 4))
10:16	clojurebot	[1 3 6 10]
10:16	joly	in retrospect, I'm not sure it's very clear
10:17	iDesperadO	clgv: &(reduce #(cons %2 %1) '() (range 1 5))
10:18	iDesperadO	this just show I have to change the parameters order, but why? it's not clear
10:18	iDesperadO	&(reduce #(cons %2 %1) '() (range 1 5))
10:18	lazybot	⇒ (4 3 2 1)
10:18	clgv	iDesperadO: because of ##(doc cons)
10:18	lazybot	⇒ "([x seq]); Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is the rest."
10:19	joly	conj has the arguments in the opposite order (collection, then element)
10:19	iDesperadO	....sigh
10:21	iDesperadO	I know that (conj collection element) while (cons element collection). when I apply cons/conj to reduce...I doced ##(doc reduce) only to find cons to suit reduce more naturally, but it's not. why?
10:21	lazybot	⇒ "([f coll] [f val coll]); f should be a function of 2 arguments. If val is not supplied, returns the result of applying f to the first 2 items in coll, then applying f to that result and the 3rd item, etc. If coll contains no items, f must accept no arguments as... https://www.refheap.com/paste/3808
10:22	dnolen	iDesperadO: cons is actually an exception. conj follows the standard library pattern - collection fns take the cllection as the first arg.
10:22	cshell	I don't use cons in Clojure
10:23	cshell	use conj
10:23	iDesperadO	dnolen: ah...this explaination sounds acceptable
10:23	cshell	cons is expensive and takes a lot of time
10:23	dnolen	iDesperadO: usage of cons outside of lazy-seqs is not very idiomatic.
10:23	dnolen	cshell: ? that's not true.
10:24	cshell	Well, the way I used it did - I ran it through a profiler and it was 80% of my cpu - removing it made my program a lot faster - now that doesn't mean that I was using cons correctly ;)
10:24	iDesperadO	cshell: why cons is expensive?
10:24	dnolen	iDesperadO: it is not.
10:24	iDesperadO	cshell said cons is expensive
10:24	dnolen	iDesperadO: which doesn't make it true :)
10:25	gtrak	cons is a single object allocation and a couple of call stack frames if memory serves me right
10:25	iDesperadO	cons (fn* ^:static cons [x seq] (. clojure.lang.RT (cons x seq))))
10:25	cshell	in my experience, it was, but I might have been doing something wrong with the underlying sequence
10:25	iDesperadO	(defn cons (fn* ^:static cons [x seq] (. clojure.lang.RT (cons x seq))))
10:26	clgv	(inc dnolen)
10:26	lazybot	⇒ 6
10:26	clgv	$karma dnolen
10:26	lazybot	dnolen has karma 6.
10:26	clgv	$karma cshell
10:26	lazybot	cshell has karma 0.
10:26	gtrak	hah
10:26	clgv	;)
10:27	gtrak	iDesperadO: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/RT.java#L532
10:27	cshell	I wonder if it was because I was using a vector
10:28	gtrak	it looks like it seqs a vector
10:28	gtrak	is that slow?
10:28	dnolen	cshell: probably.
10:29	cshell	lists get added to in the front, and vectors in the back - if I did a cons on a vector I wonder if it has to iterate the vector for some reaso
10:29	cshell	n
10:29	gtrak	don't believe that's the case, but it does have to add a cons cell in the front
10:29	iDesperadO	list is quick to do the action on the lfe, while vector is quick on the right
10:30	dnolen	cshell: it will call seq on the vector and cons onto that.
10:30	dnolen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:30	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 440.266025 msecs"
10:30	dnolen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:30	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 964.152597 msecs"
10:30	dnolen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:30	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 986.073162 msecs"
10:30	gtrak	umm
10:30	dnolen	not sure if GC is an issue with clojurebot, but that takes ~100ms on my machine.
10:30	gtrak	why is it twice as slow the second/third time?
10:31	dnolen	gtrak: GC
10:31	gtrak	then it should at least be irregular
10:31	dnolen	,(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:31	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 545.066794 msecs"
10:31	dnolen	gtrak: there you go.
10:32	gtrak	&(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:32	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 1269.220924 msecs" nil
10:32	gtrak	&(time (dotimes [_ 1] (reduce #(cons %2 %1) () (range 1000000))))
10:32	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 1195.433891 msecs" nil
10:32	iDesperadO	...cons just some new functions called...so I think cons won't be expensive...
10:33	iDesperadO	.......tired, time to go home
10:33	cshell	If I cons a vector, and then try to get the nth element of the resulting sequence, would the time complexity be O(n), vs O(1) for a vector?
10:33	gtrak	does seqing a vector change its lookup characteristics?
10:34	iDesperadO	thank you very much clgv, dnolen cshell and other guys:)
10:34	cshell	I just added confusion ;)
10:34	iDesperadO	it helps:)
10:35	cshell	if I cons a vector, a list comes back '(1 3 2)' - my experience with cons was when I was first starting with clojure - and I was doing large collections of things
10:36	gtrak	,(class (seq [1 2 3 4 5]))
10:36	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
10:36	cshell	so I wonder if that's why my performance was really bad - not on the cons itself but on the subsequent random access
10:36	gtrak	cshell: at any rate there's a better solution, stick with vectors the whole way through
10:37	cshell	that's what i ended up doing, but using conj to add to the end
10:37	cshell	,(class (cons 1 [2 3]))
10:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
10:37	gtrak	looks like PersistentVector.ChunkedSeq doesn't have a shortcut for nth?
10:37	cshell	,(class (conj [1 2] 3))
10:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
10:38	gtrak	,(class (rest (cons 1 [2 3]) 2))
10:38	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$rest>
10:38	gtrak	,(class (rest (cons 1 [2 3])))
10:38	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
10:40	gtrak	it probably could but it probably just makes more sense to stick to vectors
10:41	cshell	Yeah, so i should refine my previous statement with usage of cons is relatively expensive (O(n) vs O(1)) if you expect to perform random access on the resulting struturee?
10:41	cshell	er, structure even
10:41	gtrak	random access on a linkedlist is never a good thing
10:42	gtrak	I don't think that's very surprising
10:42	cshell	ah okay, next time I'll be more explicit :)
10:45	gtrak	does persistentvector have similar cache-locality as arraylist?
10:50	vijaykiran	seanm:
11:01	Cheiron	Hi, lately when coding in Clojure i noted this new behavior. when creating functions, i'm finding myself defining closure functions inside let form. this allowing for really neat and concise defn body
11:02	Cheiron	is it an idiomatic functional technique?
11:06	llasram	Cheiron: If I'm understanding you properly, then 100% :-)
11:07	llasram	Cheiron: There's even `letfn` for making defining local functions more concise, for when all you need the `let` form for is functions
11:08	Cheiron	llasram: so I'm on the road of true Clojure? :)
11:08	stain	are these functions you call multiple places?
11:09	llasram	We are all on the road of true Clojure, together evolving the idioms and conventions which will guide us to the Ultimate Elegance. So say we all.
11:10	llasram	Aaaaanyway, it's a common technique in any language with real lambdas.
11:10	duck1123`	def lines in places other than top level bug me, but it's not really "wrong"
11:12	Cheiron	stain: no
11:13	stain	are they long?
11:13	llasram	duck1123`: I end up having them w/in a top-level `let` sometimes, but even that feel subtly off sometimes
11:13	Cheiron	stain: no, two or three lines
11:13	stain	I would just use anonymous functions if it's use-once-short, unless they look genuinely useful, then I move them to defn. But I'm a beginner to Clojure!
11:20	S11001001	stain: use what looks pretty; hard and fast rules will lead you astray
11:20	S11001001	the code should be pretty
11:20	stain	that's a good guide!
11:22	stain	so no, don't use defn for every internal function, dont use letfn for every use-once function, and don't use anonymous for every one either. Common sense, make it look nice and readable.
11:36	S11001001	I like pretty; I guess readable is okay. I like making little shapes with my lisp code, though they usually turn out looking like vietnam
11:39	stain	hehehehhe
11:57	holo	hi
12:00	holo	in java.jdbc page - http://dev.clojure.org/pages/viewpreviousversions.action?pageId=2424859 - i can't find the API versions. where can i get this information? like in my project i have [org.clojure/java.jdbc "0.2.3"], but i want a more recent version
12:02	seancorfield	it's listed here https://github.com/clojure/java.jdbc/
12:02	seancorfield	also, this page http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go provides links to the latest versions (in maven) for all contrib libraries
12:02	solussd	Anyone have any ideas why compiling this ns declaration results in "Parameter declaration set should be a vector"? https://www.refheap.com/paste/9c66f4664ba2c7cf28a494fa7
12:03	duck11231	For things in central, mvnrepository is good. http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.clojure/java.jdbc for others, check clojars
12:03	seancorfield	0.2.3 is the more recent release of java.jdbc btw holo
12:03	holo	seancorfield, the connection-uri is really not in 0.2.3 version right?
12:04	wmealing	seancorfield, going to take a stab at it
12:04	wmealing	but..
12:04	holo	duck11231, nice tip. thanks
12:04	wmealing	i think that the second line in requires.
12:04	wmealing	should be using a vector, not a list
12:04	wmealing	[ not (
12:04	wmealing	sorry, not list.
12:04	seancorfield	holo: sure it is - that was committed on jun 13th - 0.2.3 was released on jun 18th
12:04	seancorfield	look at the commit history in github
12:05	seancorfield	solussd: that second line in the :require is a ( ) but should be [ ]
12:05	wmealing	sorry, wrong person
12:05	wmealing	what sean said.
12:05	seancorfield	:)
12:05	wmealing	its late here..
12:06	seancorfield	it's early here
12:06	solussd	seancorfield: actually, that works fine- turns out it was a bad 'defn' in one of the namespaces I was requiring.
12:06	solussd	thanks
12:06	seancorfield	ah, good to know solussd
12:07	seancorfield	i guess if you'd pastebin'd the stack trace, we'd have spotted that :)
12:07	wmealing	didnt know you could put it like that. today i learned.
12:08	seancorfield	i've been tidying up my ns declarations recently to have only one :require and one :import (if needed)
12:08	seancorfield	but i still can't break the habit of :require stuff in [ ] and :import in ( ) because that's how i always saw it in examples!
12:09	seancorfield	and i like being able to just :refer certain vars instead of just setting up an :as alias
12:09	duck11231	I've been through every combination of () and [] in ns forms. Now I'm strictly []
12:09	technomancy	that's not right
12:09	technomancy	import should use ()
12:09	hiredman	imports should be in (), everything else in []
12:10	seancorfield	the confusion is because the compiler allows ( ) and [ ] interchangeably - bug!
12:11	technomancy	the compiler also allows you to indent with seven spaces instead of two
12:11	technomancy	heck, it even allows the use of tabs in indentation!
12:13	burt	I have a list of vectors and I want to append an increasing number to the front of every vector. I have '([:a :b] [:c :d]) and I want '([0 :a :b] [1 :c :d])
12:13	burt	How do I do that?
12:14	S11001001	burt: map with 3 args and (range)
12:15	burt	S11001001: I don't follow
12:15	duck11231	,(doc map-indexed)
12:15	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
12:15	S11001001	oh yeah, forgot about that duck11231
12:17	duck11231	,(map-indexed (fn [i v] (conj v i)) '([:a :b] [:c :d] [:e :f]))
12:17	clojurebot	([:a :b 0] [:c :d 1] [:e :f 2])
12:17	burt	duck11231: thanks
12:17	duck11231	well, that didn't work, but you get the idea
12:20	seancorfield	,(map-indexed (fn [i v] (into [i] v)) '([:a :b] [:c :d] [:e :f]))
12:20	clojurebot	([0 :a :b] [1 :c :d] [2 :e :f])
12:20	seancorfield	not sure how (in)efficient that is tho'...
12:20	seancorfield	adding to the front of vectors isn't terribly efficient, right?
12:21	burt	seancorfield: im cons'ing onto the front of them
12:22	holo	seancorfield, oh ok. when i checked with (doc clojure.java.jdbc/with-connection) it shown no connection-uri. so it's just a forgotten documentation?
12:22	burt	i know it's not as efficient, but it needs to be the front -- im manipulating CSV
12:27	S11001001	burt: do they have to be vectors?
12:35	seancorfield	holo: you missed :connection-uri - it's there
12:36	seancorfield	http://clojure.github.com/java.jdbc/#clojure.java.jdbc/with-connection
12:37	seancorfield	you can see it here http://grab.by/eZUA
12:38	seancorfield	burt: cons'ing on the front of lists is efficient (and (cons i some-vec) will turn it into a list)
12:41	holo	seancorfield, i know it's there, but i can't find it with "doc" function. can you take a look? - https://gist.github.com/3183120
12:41	seancorfield	my screenshot shows i used doc to display that
12:42	scriptor	holo: (clojure.repl/doc …) to be more specific
12:42	seancorfield	are you sure you don't have a much older version of java.jdbc loaded?
12:44	seancorfield	the docstring you see was current in 0.2.2 or possibly early 0.2.3-SNAPSHOT builds
12:49	mdeboard	&(doc send-off)
12:49	mdeboard	,(doc send-off)
12:50	clojurebot	"([a f & args]); Dispatch a potentially blocking action to an agent. Returns the agent immediately. Subsequently, in a separate thread, the state of the agent will be set to the value of: (apply action-fn state-of-agent args)"
12:50	mdeboard	Does `state-of-agent' mean a reference to the agent at a particular point in time?
12:53	joly	mdeboard: state-of-agent is what is returned when you deref the agent
12:53	joly	,@(agent "test")
12:53	clojurebot	"test"
12:53	mdeboard	I gotcha
12:53	mdeboard	just wanted to be sure
12:59	lpetit	Any CCW user right there ?
12:59	lpetit	Hello, btw :)
12:59	clgv	lpetit: here ^^
12:59	lpetit	clgv: hi :)
12:59	clgv	hi
12:59	lpetit	clgv: are you currently using the beta software update site channel?
13:00	clgv	lpetit: no, not at work
13:00	lpetit	clgv: and at home?
13:00	clgv	I have a beta installation
13:00	clgv	do you have 0.10.0 - beta out?
13:00	lpetit	I'll release in a few minutes a new beta, with hippie completion.
13:01	clgv	"hippie completion"?
13:01	lpetit	clgv: Oh, there has been several beta released, with increasingly good (IMHO ;) ) code completion support
13:01	clgv	"hippie completion" = "code completion"?
13:01	lpetit	clgv: there was what I'm calling "repl-completion", which is based on dynamic introspection. This has been increased in the past few weeks
13:02	Horofox	what's the clojure's equivalent of ruby's irb?
13:02	lpetit	clgv: and now I've added "hippie completion": https://t.co/NgU3rq34
13:02	technomancy	lpetit: in emacs hippie completion means it gets completion from a variety of sources; is yours the same?
13:02	lpetit	in a nutshell: uses symbols/keywords found in current file
13:03	lpetit	technomancy: in Eclipse, the meaning is "all word tokens found in all open editors". Right now my meaning is "all symbols and keywords found in same editor".
13:03	technomancy	huh, you had to implement that yourself?
13:03	clgv	good. so we are getting closer to completion for everything required/used?
13:03	lpetit	technomancy, clgv: it's just a first version, before going on holidays. Suggestions welcome
13:04	lpetit	clgv: completion for everything required/used is there since ~ 2 weeks in beta, and it's dynamic (needs a running REPL)
13:04	zerokarmaleft	Horofox: you can get a basic repl with `lein repl`
13:04	lpetit	clgv: hippie is more static, with some goodies: it completes keywords, and it completes symbols with same symbols in file, and also symbols suggestions derived from keyword names in same file (@cgrand suggestion)
13:04	metellus	assuming you're using lein (you should be using lein)
13:05	clgv	lpetit: do you plan to remove the need for a repl for code completion in the future? the plugin could have a background thread analyzing projects and dependencies...
13:05	lpetit	clgv: someday ...
13:06	mdeboard	What's the Java equiv of C#'s "MemoryStream" class?
13:06	technomancy	mdeboard: a stream coming from in-memory bytes?
13:06	technomancy	would be a ByteArrayInputStream
13:06	mdeboard	or, alternatively, i ther'es a clojure abstraction
13:06	technomancy	or OutputStream
13:07	lpetit	clgv: I'm focusing right now on improving as far as possible, but without breaking everything, what we currently have. Meaning I'm working hard on improving what is on the editor. Plugging in a background REPL for removing the need for having a live REPL is probably out of the scope of this iteration.
13:07	mdeboard	I see
13:07	semperos	dnolen: where does this 'verify' get defined? https://github.com/clojure/core.logic/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/core/logic.clj#L148
13:07	clgv	lpetit: yeah thats good. I just wanted to know if it is wanted at all ;)
13:08	lpetit	clgv: needs more hammock time :
13:08	lpetit	:)
13:08	mdeboard	technomancy: I see
13:09	clgv	lpetit: ah right - hammock-driven development ^^
13:09	meenal	Hi, When I search on slingshot, I see people mention that they are able to avoid custom exceptions with slingshot. Can someone pls point me to how it can be achieved?
13:09	lpetit	Man, I don't know how to say it differently: Eclipse 4 's new default theme is terrible. No, it's unbearable. No, it's … well, you get the point.
13:09	jkkramer	lpetit: congrats on ccw, it's really great. I tried out 0.9 and am actually tempted to switch from emacs
13:10	semperos	nm, I see it now, parameter to the Substitutions ctor...
13:11	seancorfield	holo: did you resolve your java.jdbc issue?
13:11	lpetit	jkkramer: Thanks. I'd be interested on your positive and negative feedback. Would be real interesting to know, from the point of view of an emacs user, a revised pros/cons.
13:11	meenal	Basically, I want to write a custom exception class, just like the one written in java and would like to know how to achieve this with slingshot
13:12	lpetit	jkkramer: and if you want the test to be more complete, I invite you to try out from the beta channel : http://ccw.cgrand.net/updatesite-betas , because it is already stable, but still polishing, and has much more improved code completion. So by all means please try it if you don't already have.
13:12	technomancy	meenal: look at ex-info in clojure 1.4
13:12	technomancy	it's a subset of what slingshot offers
13:12	technomancy	of course you don't get an actual custom class, because that's not really useful; you get an exception to which you can attach arbitrary data
13:13	jkkramer	lpetit: sure. i'll try switching for a few days soon and will take notes as I encounter issues
13:13	technomancy	meenal: slingshot offers a much nicer way to catch exceptions
13:13	technomancy	but you don't need it to throw
13:13	lpetit	jkkramer: thanks. I for sure know there are big missing holes, but I'm not quite sure what the most annoying ones are.
13:14	jkkramer	lpetit: my main blockers in the past were rainbow parens (yuck) and leiningen integration. since you solved those, going to give it an earnest try
13:14	lpetit	jkkramer: I'll be on holidays, but you can usually find cemerick on the clojure or ccw IRC channels
13:14	jkkramer	ok
13:14	mdeboard	This is probably a questoin without enough information, but if a Java class constructor signature takes an OutputStream instance as one of its args, would it suffice to pass `(partial output-stream)' when constructing that class in Clojure?
13:14	lpetit	jkkramer: ok
13:15	lpetit	jkkramer: I want a report on my laptop by the end of my holidays ! :-D
13:15	jkkramer	lpetit: i'll see what i can do ;)
13:15	lpetit	just kidding
13:17	dnolen	semperos: that's how disequality constraints work in master - that will be changing soon.
13:17	dnolen	semperos: are you just curious about the implementation details?
13:17	lpetit	clgv: wrt starting a repl in the background, I have contemplated a middle road … if a REPL is needed but none is started, try to start a REPL for the project the editor lives in … not sure if it would bring more goodness than edge cases, though
13:17	semperos	I'm working on the custom unification for my record, following the whole flow to learn how everything works together
13:18	mdeboard	guess I'll just call new against java.io.OutputStream and use htat
13:19	clgv	lpetit: I cant tell either ;)
13:21	meenal	thank u, technomancy. I will take a look at ex-info and seek ur advice if i have any questions
13:23	XPherior	So.. About Sandbar. It uses sessions to keep track of who's logged in. Isn't it bad practice to use sessions for that?
13:24	technomancy	is sandbar still maintained?
13:24	XPherior	technomancy: Now that I glance at it, not really. What're people using for a login systems nowadays?
13:24	dnolen	semperos: yeah verify is not related to unification really. it's just identity fn until you actually use a != goal. in the next version of core.logic there's a more robust solution.
13:25	technomancy	XPherior: friend looks promising
13:25	dnolen	semperos: actually it's not true that it's not related to unification, but again it's a implementation detail that's changing.
13:25	XPherior	technomancy: Thanks. I'll have a peek. :)
13:25	semperos	gotcha; was looking at how unify-terms dispatches on lvar, and chained my way back up to it
13:26	dnolen	semperos: yeah assume it's the identity fn in your reading.
13:26	semperos	dnolen: makes sense
13:27	mdeboard	Java interop question. A class constructor (http://api.itextpdf.com/itext/com/itextpdf/text/pdf/PdfCopy.html) takes an OutputStream instance as one of its args. Can anyone point me in the right direction on constructing this class in Clojure?
13:28	dakrone	mdeboard: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.java.io/output-stream
13:28	mdeboard	dakrone: Yeah, but I am not sure what arg I should be passing to that fn
13:28	mdeboard	and `(partial output-stream)' throws an exception
13:28	dakrone	"Default implementations are defined for OutputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, and String arguments."
13:29	dakrone	so any of those
13:30	mdeboard	literally `(output-stream java.io.OutputStream)'? I tried that, as well as `(output-stream (new java.io.OutputStream))', I think I'm confused.
13:31	mdeboard	(I'm new to the java interop part of clojure)
13:31	llasram	mdeboard: Try `(output-stream "my-delightful-output-file-name")`
13:33	llasram	mdeboard: This actually hides the interop side. It returns an instance OutputStream, which happens to be a particular Java class, but with exactly the same implications as e.g. strings being instances of java.lang.String.
13:34	mdeboard	I see. I think I accidentally didn't listen to technomancy when he said I want a ByteArrayInputStream
13:34	llasram	Oh, geez -- always listen to technomancy
13:35	llasram	Aynway :-), if you need a ByteArrayInputStream or ByteArrayOutputStream, then you do need to construct it yourself w/ interop
13:36	llasram	$(java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream.)
13:36	llasram	.r
13:36	llasram	Man, home row
13:36	llasram	&(java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream.)
13:36	llasram	Oh, lazybot dead?
13:36	llasram	,(java.io.ByteArrayOutputStream.)
13:37	clojurebot	#<ByteArrayOutputStream >
13:37	llasram	Anyway, you get the gist
13:37	mdeboard	Actually, wrong, I do need OutputStream since that's what this Java method's signature requires
13:37	llasram	ByteArrayOutputStream is a subclass of OutputStream, so you can use it anywhere where the type signature requires the superclass
13:38	llasram	Inheritance-based polymorphism may be rife with peril, but it's what you get in Java interop
13:39	mdeboard	I see. Thanks for your help, I'm rewriting a C# library that uses a 3rd party lib in Clojure by referencing the javadocs for the Java version of the same lib.
13:39	mdeboard	that is, I'm rewriting in Clojure, it doesn't use a 3rd party lib written in Clojure
13:39	llasram	Gotcha :-)
13:40	mdeboard	aha look at that, ByteArrayOutputStream works
13:49	holo	seancorfield, i didn't. i'm a bit laggy over here ^^ my doc is also clojure.repl/doc . so strange this issue. for sure i'm using an older version, what else can it be? but my project specifies version 0.2.3
14:37	mdeboard	How do you ensure that you're calling a class method if the class has a method and an attribute with the same name? wrt Java interop & classes. There's a class I'm using that has a 'close' attrib and a 'close' method.
14:37	mdeboard	which is terrible
14:40	llasram	mdeboard: I'm failing to recall how you do it w/ earlier versions, but starting w/ 1.4 there's a separate syntax for field access: (.close x) is the method call, (.-close x) is the field access
14:40	mdeboard	oic
14:40	mdeboard	thankfully I"m on 1.4
14:40	edw	Any having problems using CLOJURE-JACK-IN in the lastest Emacs from the git repo? I'm getting a "Symbol's function definition is void" cl-set-getf" error.
14:40	edw	Using lein-swank 1.4.4.
14:41	technomancy	edw: maybe (require 'cl)?
14:41	technomancy	edw: alternatively: https://github.com/kingtim/nrepl.el
14:41	hiredman	in clojure (.close x) is no-arg method or field, the compiler an figure out which reflectively
14:41	edw	nrepl? Instead of Emacs?!
14:41	hiredman	in clojurescript it cannot, so a distinctive syntax as introduced (.-close x) for field, (.close x) for method
14:41	technomancy	edw: no?
14:41	mdeboard	hiredman: how? foo.close returns a boolean, foo.close() actually closes the thing
14:41	edw	Oh, I see. Sorry.
14:42	technomancy	heh
14:42	hiredman	clojure has support for (.-close x) field access, but there is little reason to use it
14:42	llasram	hiredman: Unless you have a field and a method w/ the same name, right?
14:42	hiredman	llasram: sure
14:42	llasram	hiredman: Ok, which is the case we're talking about :-)
14:44	edw	(require 'cl) didn't work, btw.
14:45	mdeboard	llasram: Thanks, I was pretty confused for a second
14:48	patrkris	hi folks. I'm looking for a CalDAV client library for Clojure or Java. Can anyone recommend one, or perhaps recommend an HTTP library which is relatively easy to extend?
14:52	edw	technomancy: Not to be a PITA, but nrepl doesn't seem to be in Marmalde's repo.
14:52	technomancy	edw: it should be there
14:52	technomancy	http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/nrepl
14:53	wingy	is there a way to run cljs files in the browser directly?
14:53	wingy	for development
14:54	edw	package-archive ==> (("marmalade" . "http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/") ("gnu" . "http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/"))
14:54	edw	M-x package-install [RET] nrepl [RET] ==> "no match"
14:54	technomancy	M-x package-refresh-contents
14:55	edw	Much better.
14:56	edw	Wikked fast.
14:57	technomancy	it's still missing a few things
14:57	technomancy	but getting better fast
14:58	duck11231	is the packaged nrepl usually pretty up to date?
14:58	technomancy	duck11231: there is no "usual" for a project this new =)
15:07	wingy	i guess not since its depending on google closure compiler
15:17	mdeboard	I'm trying to make sense of the with-open macro, but don't understand the `(let)' statement on this line https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/d0c380d9809fd242bec688c7134e900f0bbedcac/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L3389 ... specifically what "~(subvec bindings 0 2)" expands to... if bindings is [x 1], it looks like it would expand to "(let [subvec [x 1] 0 2])" which is invalid syntax... what happenin' here
15:17	mdeboard	I don't understand the "0 2" at the end of that expression is what I'm saying
15:18	mattmoss	,(subvec [1 2 3 4 5 6] 0 2)
15:18	clojurebot	[1 2]
15:18	mdeboard	oh
15:18	mdeboard	subvec is a fn :P whoops.
15:19	stain	so basically it unpacks the first binding
15:19	stain	then recurses with the rest of the bindings
15:20	mdeboard	gotcha
15:20	mdeboard	that makes a lot more sense then.
15:20	stain	for each recursion there is a finally-block that closes the one that that iteration unpacked
15:20	stain	s/iteration/call/g
15:20	stain	if you can say macro is called..
15:21	mattmoss	expanded
15:21	mattmoss	well, hmm.
15:21	stain	sounds right
15:25	Horofox	how do I run a .clj file with the command line?
15:26	_ulises	evening
15:27	Horofox	evening
15:27	llasram	Horofox: Use `lein run`
15:27	_ulises	this is for emacs + slime users: which tools do you use to refactor your code? e.g. rename symbols, extract fns, etc.? I just came across https://github.com/joodie/clojure-refactoring but it hasn't received much love in about 8 months
15:28	llasram	Horofox: Er, in the context of a lein project. There are tools floating around for running Clojure files as "scripts," but none have really become standard
15:28	Horofox	llasram: and not in the context of a leon project?
15:28	Horofox	llasram: I'm doing the clojure koans and want to test a .clj script i made
15:29	llasram	Horofox: I'd suggest just creating a scratch lein project and including the file. It's the de facato standard way of doing things.
15:30	llasram	de facto, even
15:30	Horofox	llasram: not so easy to enter the clojure world, huh.
15:30	hiredman	Horofox: java -jar clojure.jar some-file.clj
15:31	hiredman	I would suggest if you are starting out you just play with the repl and not even bother with files
15:31	hiredman	http://clojure.org/getting_started
15:31	llasram	I'd disagree -- it's just a question of getting people to use the right tools. Instead of downloading and installing "clojure" you download and install lein. And then unlike other languages, there's nothing else to ever install -- lein resolves all dependencies dynamically per-project
15:31	hiredman	llasram: I didn't ask you
15:31	Horofox	hiredman: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Only these options are valid: :default, :hierarchy" I get this
15:32	Horofox	what could it be?
15:32	llasram	hiredman: I
15:32	llasram	hiredman: I'd meant to direct that at Horofox
15:32	hiredman	Horofox: fix your mistake
15:32	hiredman	Horofox: this is part of the reason why interacting with the repl for newbies is better
15:32	Horofox	hiredman: it's not telling shit about "my mistake"
15:32	hiredman	it is
15:33	hiredman	but if you interact with the repl directly you can see exactly which expression causes what
15:33	hiredman	the exception there includes lots of line number information etc
15:33	hiredman	but most people ignore exceptions, or complain about them being too verbose (no idea why)
15:33	Horofox	but they are, aren't they?
15:34	hiredman	no
15:34	hiredman	they contain lots of useful information
15:34	sjl	hiredman: a garbage dump likely contains lots of useful stuff too
15:35	sjl	the problem is that it's buried in irrelevant crap
15:35	llasram	Mmmm. Yeah. I love Clojure, but I think the compiler error reporting could be significantly improved . Most of the time I do not want a stack trace which includes both my code and compiler internals
15:35	hiredman	you should know and care about the internals
15:36	llasram	Oh, it's incredibly helpful. I've read most of core.clj and have gotten familiar with much of the Java compiler implementation. But that's not relevant for most of the errors I make, and thus neither is 90% of the stack trace
15:37	hiredman	"it's incredibly helpful, but I don't want it"
15:38	llasram	I agree that one learns to zero in on the relevant parts pretty quickly, and figure out the error messages generated by the most common errors, but that doesn't mean the mapping is straightforward
15:38	hiredman	Horofox: your error is you copied and pasted some code from somewhere that defines multimethods in way that doesn't work anymore
15:38	Horofox	hiredman: does it say what you told me?
15:38	Horofox	hiredman: but thanks
15:39	Horofox	hiredman: how did you learn clojure?
15:39	dnolen	llasram: 1.3 includes better stacktraces - would be better if someone submitted a patch that provided this is a data structure for external tools.
15:39	dnolen	Lots of complaining ... no patches.
15:39	hiredman	Horofox: just like I recommended it to you
15:39	Horofox	hiredman: use REPL?
15:39	hiredman	yep
15:39	llasram	dnolen: I've got a CA printed out and sitting on my desk. I'm just waiting for my boss to get back from a conference to send it in :-)
15:39	hiredman	from a repl I went to manually c&p from a file to repl
15:39	Horofox	hiredman: I want to learn so I need a direction, not only typing random stuff in REPL
15:40	hiredman	Horofox: you can futz around with various code exercises, but the best way is to find a project and write it
15:41	dnolen	llasram: sweet, look forward to someone actually attempting to fix the issue!
15:41	hiredman	it's like literacy in anything else, spend time reading and writing
15:41	Horofox	hiredman: what's a good thing to write in clojure? I don't want to get into webdev(I already develop with rails)
15:42	hiredman	whatever your next toy project is
15:44	hiredman	I've got a doozy of a project for you: implement some audio codec in clojure
15:45	lynaghk	cemerick: ping
15:48	Horofox	hiredman: i have no idea of how audio codecs work
15:49	hiredman	there are a lot of tools for dealing with clojure projects, but what is more important, understanding clojure or the tools ecosystem? clojure is certainly usable outside of the tools
15:49	hiredman	Horofox: you will have some idea by the time you are done
15:49	Hodapp	code exercises, however, can be a good way to introduce a construct that you might not find if you were more focusing more on a project or problem
15:50	dnolen	Horofox: to get to your earlier point, Clojure is not so great for writing simple scripts. JVM startup time makes this mode of development tedious. Most folks figure out a decent REPL setup for their favorite environment.
15:50	dnolen	Horofox: VIM, Emacs, and Eclipse have the most developed environments. Light Table promises to provide something more friendly one day.
15:50	hiredman	I have no idea either, I started trying to port an mp3 codec from haskell, but got as far as trying to figure out what a "psychoacoustic model" is
15:51	Horofox	hiredman: that's a good idea
15:51	sjl	Horofox: "Games" it a broad topic that can be fun, and you can start with tiny text-based "guess my number" and tackler more and more interesting ones as you learn
15:52	hiredman	"I want to learn Java" "go install maven and eclipse"
15:52	hiredman	"I want to learn Ruby" "install textmate, rvm, and rails"
15:53	llasram	I view "I want to learn Clojure" -> "install lein" as the equiv of "I want to learn Ruby" -> "install ruby"
15:53	hiredman	clojurebot: lein \|is not\| clojure
15:53	clojurebot	Alles klar
15:54	llasram	I'm fully aware that you can just download the Clojure JAR, but it doesn't get you any of the amenities most people expect from installing a language package
15:54	gtrak	~lein
15:54	clojurebot	lein is not the bestest programming language available.
15:54	amalloy	haha. damn you for your inferences, clojurebot!
15:55	gtrak	clojurebot: lein \|is not\| 'clojure
15:55	clojurebot	In Ordnung
15:55	gtrak	~lein
15:55	clojurebot	lein is not clojure
15:55	gtrak	ha, that actually worked?
15:55	amalloy	~clojure
15:55	clojurebot	clojure > scheme
15:55	emezeske	~scheme
15:55	clojurebot	scheme is Scheme is like a ball of snow. You can add any amount of snow to it and it still looks like snow. Moreover, snow is cleaner than mud.
15:55	gtrak	is that a coincidence?
15:56	llasram	I've had had multiple friends turned off from trying out Clojure because they'd download the JAR or install a package and end up with something which didn't provide anything like the tooling they expected
15:57	sjl	It may not be usable but at least it's not complected amirite
15:57	llasram	heh
15:58	dnolen	llasram: what were they used to?
15:58	llasram	Ruby mostly
15:58	hiredman	llasram: my contention is starting with the repl is the best way
15:58	dnolen	llasram: case closed ;)
15:58	sjl	readline support?
15:58	gtrak	sjl: I want to program... me: here's an integer
15:58	hiredman	llasram: not the easiest
15:58	amalloy	hiredman: rlwrap java -jar clojure.jar? or something else?
15:59	hiredman	rlwrap is a flourish
15:59	ToxicFrog	llasram: not having used ruby, what were they expecting other than "a REPL"?
15:59	dnolen	llasram: I find lein far more pleasant than the rvm + bundler stuff I have to deal with. Tho to be fair that Rails-ish stuff.
16:00	stain	have any of you a good idea on how to do framebuffer (as in /dev/fb0 on Linux) fun from Clojure? I'm thinking for a Raspberry Pi project
16:00	hiredman	I am not saying that the tools, the extras, etc are bad, jsut that hey are that, extras
16:00	stain	perhaps some JNI stuff? File operations on the device might not be enough, I guess
16:01	llasram	dnolen: Oh, totally. Hmm. I'm saying things poorly, and I don't think anyone here disagrees with me except maybe hiredman. If you know that clojure.jar is a library implementing the language, and that's what you need, then great. But I haven't tried any other language that distributes itself that way
16:01	ToxicFrog	llasram: I mean, generally, when I install a language runtime, I expect to get the docs, the runtime libraries, the interpreter or compiler, and hopefully a REPL and that's basically it.
16:01	dnolen	llasram: yes the story is usually far more frightening :)
16:01	llasram	dnolen: Ruby, Python, Scala, Haskell -- I install a package, and get a set of tooling which integrates a readline-supporting REPL, docs, command-line compiler/interpreter etc
16:01	hiredman	if all you know is how to do is work with clojure tools, what happens when the tools fail or are inadequate
16:02	hiredman	the clojure repl has all of that except for readline support
16:02	dnolen	llasram: yes, global installs have destroyed countless hours of productivity the world over.
16:02	ToxicFrog	...doesn't clojure.jar include a command-line compiler and interpreter in the form of clojure.main?
16:02	hiredman	clojure jar
16:03	hiredman	docs access from the repl is also an extra in my mind
16:03	ToxicFrog	Horofox: on the subject of fun projects for clojure - currently I'm working on a project to edit and merge a (text-based) save game format for a game I play. So, a parser, generator, various analysis and editing tools, etc. Don't know if that inspires you at all.
16:03	hiredman	clojure.org is comprehensive
16:03	llasram	ToxicFrog: A REPL with readline support and commad-line completion, a way of running code in files which doesn't involve knowing how to invoke the JVM on the library implementing the language you're trying to use
16:04	Horofox	ToxicFrog: cool
16:04	ToxicFrog	llasram: ok, yes, readline support is notably missing
16:04	llasram	I'm not saying theses are bad properties in and of themselves -- just that they aren't what most of the people I've tried to expose to Clojure expect, and from that sample just pointing people to lein is a better match of what they're looking for
16:04	hiredman	"symbiotic with an established Platform" -- http://clojure.org/rationale
16:04	ToxicFrog	I have a working 'clojure' command that handles all of the JVM invokation for me, but that may have been added by the packager?
16:05	dnolen	llasram: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/CLJ+Launcher
16:05	hiredman	people should not expect to use clojure without understanding at least something about the jvm
16:05	sjl	ToxicFrog: Some packagers do that -- brew installs clj for you
16:05	dnolen	llasram: what you want is desirable - but yet again something the community needs to step up to the plate.
16:05	llasram	hiredman: Agreed. But if you check out e.g. Jython, JRuby they have many more amenities
16:05	hiredman	just as I would say people should not expect to use clojurescript without some understanding of javascript
16:06	ToxicFrog	hiredman: he does have a point that even other JVM libraries generally come with at least a few wrapper scripts to launch the jars properly :)
16:06	hiredman	llasram: I have to argument against amenities, and there use, I just don't think they are a good way to learn
16:06	llasram	dnolen: I think the community already has in the form of lein :-)
16:06	hiredman	when teaching children to do addition, do you just hand them a calculator and say "press these buttons" ?
16:06	ToxicFrog	Speaking of launching jars smoothly, anyone here have experience using jsmooth or something like it on a lein uberjar?
16:07	ToxicFrog	I am looking for a way to make deploying on windows not an endless pit of misery and suffering.
16:07	sjl	hiredman: nah first we take the calculator apart and I explain the circuit board so they understand how it runs
16:07	dnolen	llasram: of course! but there are some good ideas not yet in lein on that page as well.
16:07	ToxicFrog	hiredman: no, but neither do I start with category theory so that they can truly understand addition :P
16:07	gtrak	people have this same argument on ##java against IDEs
16:08	gtrak	i think it generally resolves to don't expect us to help you with eclipse
16:08	ToxicFrog	More generally, if you're teaching someone to program it helps to be able to teach programming without constantly getting hung up on the tools and the language being used to teach it, and similarly, if you're teaching a specific language it's nice not to spend a lot of overhead on the OS or architecture that the language targets.
16:09	gtrak	when you don't know the basics of java
16:09	ToxicFrog	Those are things that should be learned, but they are also different things.
16:10	sjl	ToxicFrog: Yep. Allow this abstraction to just be abstract for now. Later you can dive in and see how it works but trying to bootstrap from first principles will take forever.
16:11	mdeboard	Why was clojure.core.assert-args made private? Is there a way to use private fns ?
16:11	gtrak	#'
16:11	headius	you can argue against "amenities" of language impls like JRuby that try to hide the JVM's ugliness, but you'd be deluding yourself
16:11	headius	the JVM is not very user friendly, and saying "you just need to learn the JVM" ignores the many obvious warts
16:11	mdeboard	gtrak: Righto
16:12	headius	that said I'm entering this conversation halfway through, so I don't know what amenities we're talking about :)
16:12	headius	ahh…a nice command-line tool
16:12	headius	yeah, that's a silly one to argue against
16:12	gtrak	headius: clojure.org site recommends getting the jar instead of lein
16:12	hiredman	I am not saying it should exist
16:12	headius	the heinousity of the java command line is legendary
16:13	headius	even the original Java guys acknowledge it
16:13	hiredman	I am saying several things 1. lein is not clojure 2. telling people to learn lein to learn clojure is silly 3. booting the jar gives just clojure, no other distractions
16:13	headius	I don't mean you should go as far as we have in JRuby and provide a native executable, but every bit you can do to make CLI easier is like gold
16:13	sjl	I wonder if Pygments has "java command line invocation" as a lexer
16:14	llasram	hiredman: Directly linking libpython.so gives you Python w/o any distractions, but that's still an awkward way to work with the language
16:14	headius	the "jruby" command actually books libjvm and starts up the JVM through JNI…giving us full control over the structure and interpretation of the command line
16:14	headius	books=boots
16:15	llasram	I think headius's summary is right on -- we're really just talking about having a convenient command-line tool for interacting with the language
16:15	sjl	hiredman: how would one use a library in that setup? wget the jar?
16:15	sjl	library like, say, quil
16:15	dnolen	gtrak: it shows the simplest thing. and then links to more detailed setups.
16:15	sjl	or overtone
16:16	llasram	headius: Wow, I didn't realize you'd gone that far. That's pretty hardcore :-)
16:16	dnolen	sjl: quite few people still look at lein w/ suspicion and have custom build scripts for their projects.
16:16	hiredman	headius: I think the clojure situation is a little different from jruby's, not being a port of a c runtime people expect to be installed globally
16:16	headius	llasram: we used to have a bash script, but you can't use a bash script in the shebang line of another script
16:16	headius	we eventually just had to suck it up and provide a real native executable
16:16	gtrak	dnolen: yea... It's not against it persay, but you have to click-through some things and it's probably not obvious what you want if you're a newbie
16:16	llasram	headius: On OS X? You can on Linux these days, although you definitely couldn't in the past
16:16	headius	it's not consistent
16:16	llasram	Ah
16:17	headius	in any case, there's many other benefits to having a real native executable, like avoiding two process launches, being able to interrogate the JVM before initializing it, and so on
16:17	technomancy	yeah, with a bash script you basically end up pissing all over your ps output
16:17	headius	right
16:17	sjl	dnolen: do they... do they build classpaths and fetch all dependencies manually?
16:18	dnolen	sjl: yes, or they use Eclipse and they don't care about all this command-line goofiness at all.
16:18	sjl	dear lord, that's horrifying
16:18	dnolen	sjl: it's pretty tiresome for people to come Clojure with their myopic world views
16:19	sjl	not the Eclipse part, that's another fine direction
16:19	dnolen	sjl: Eclispe manages everything, add jars to your project done.
16:19	sjl	Yeah, if you don't need the command line that's a nice way to get started
16:20	dnolen	sjl: my point is there are legitimate multiple ways to get started. clojure.org wisely makes no assumptions.
16:20	headius	oh, another nice thing about having your own executable…if startup time is a concern, forcing users to type java -Xbooclasspath/a:clojure.jar org.clojure.Whatever is pretty mean :)
16:20	technomancy	dnolen: "I want my arrow keys to work" is a pretty reasonable assumption
16:21	sjl	technomancy: nah dude some people don't like backspace to work don't assume things
16:21	dnolen	technomancy: if you care about the command line. I don't imagine CCW uses care whether the command line REPL supports arrows or not.
16:21	technomancy	RUBOUT
16:21	headius	Ctrl-H, man
16:22	llasram	headius: heh, I almost said that -- I don't even have a key mapped to Backspace!
16:22	dnolen	technomancy: fortunately there's line to satisfy a different crowd.
16:22	dnolen	er lein
16:22	hiredman	headius: sure, and every serious project has it's own launcher script anyway
16:22	technomancy	yeah, it's just embarrassing to have to tell my friends about how great clojure is and then follow it up with "as long as you don't try to learn it from clojure.org"
16:22	ToxicFrog	'lein repl', for some reason, has absolutely horrifying memory requirements for me
16:23	headius	opinionated software sucks when the opinion is wrong
16:23	ToxicFrog	It looks like it starts up 2 JVMs and each one wants at least 1GB of memory, which on a 3GB laptop is way too much
16:23	hiredman	but what is simpler than to run `java -jar clojure.jar` and get a repl?
16:23	ToxicFrog	hiredman: as noted, you can't use command history or line editing in that, in contrast to basically every other REPL ever
16:23	ToxicFrog	And it's really annoying.
16:23	sjl	hiredman: running "clojure" and getting a repl with readline?
16:24	hiredman	what is the difference between this hypothetical clojure launcher "clj" and "java -jar clojure.jar"? the first doesn't have spaces in it?
16:24	technomancy	read. line.
16:24	ivan	-jar nukes your CLASSPATH
16:24	hiredman	I don't care about readline
16:24	sjl	you have to be in the same dir as clojure.jar
16:25	ToxicFrog	You can with jline, but now you need to download a specific older version of jline (because 1.x goes insane when hosting clojure for some reason) and use java -cp jline-asdfasdf.jar:clojure-asdfsadf.jar:$CLASSPATH jline.ConsoleRunner clojure.main
16:25	ToxicFrog	Which is miserable and a pain to type to every time you want a clojure REPL
16:25	emezeske	hiredman: You don't use readline, or something like it?
16:25	ToxicFrog	hiredman: congratulations, you get everything right on the first try and never need to re-enter older lines. The rest of us aren't as perfect.
16:25	hiredman	emezeske: sure I use it, but I can take it or leave it, it is not central to writing clojure code
16:26	emezeske	hiredman: That's like saying that an eraser is not central to writing prose with a pencil
16:26	technomancy	hiredman: that works for you, but assuming that there are more than a handful of other people who are able to function that way is crazy
16:26	emezeske	hiredman: Perfectly possible, but...
16:27	hiredman	emezeske: it works just fine
16:27	ToxicFrog	hiredman: believe it or not, most people aren't you and a great many of them appreciate the ability to backspace, line-edit, and recall previous commands easily.
16:27	hiredman	emezeske: and my personal experience backs up that it works fine (and I think so does the fact that many people besides me learned clojure before tools like lein existed)
16:28	pjstadig	self initializing clojure command-line script https://github.com/pjstadig/dotfiles/blob/master/bin/clojure
16:28	llasram	hiredman: Yes, but how many more would have learned it if there had been convenient tools from the start?
16:28	ToxicFrog	Do you need to use the REPL at all to write Clojure code? No. If you are using the REPL, is it still usable without readline support? Yes.
16:28	pjstadig	with readline
16:28	ToxicFrog	But have the REPL available with readline support makes it easier.
16:29	technomancy	hiredman: speaking from personal experience, it's because I had an extremely high tolerance for bullshit and yak shaving
16:29	ToxicFrog	If you're going to go the "well, it's not necessary, you can program fine without it" route, why are you using clojure at all rather than rocking out with machine code?
16:29	llasram	technomancy: Which tolerance on your part I for one am incredibly grateful :-)
16:29	hiredman	llasram: who cares?
16:30	hiredman	clojure is not a religious world view I want to foist on to as many people has possible
16:30	grim_radical	lolwut
16:30	llasram	hiredman: No, but it's a useful tool I'd like more people to use, so there's a more vibrant ecosystem, with more useful libraries, better documentation, and all the rest
16:30	sjl	I don't have enough wat.gifs for how this conversation has unfolded. I'm out.
16:30	ToxicFrog	pjstadig: requires rlwrap which is not reliably installed, if you're using maven anyways wouldn't it be easier to download jline 0.9.x as well and use that?
16:31	zerokarmaleft	hiredman: generalizing expectations for all people that decide to learn clojure is going to be mismatched against the experiences of clojure early-adopters (which is a small, inclusive subset)
16:31	technomancy	exhibit A: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/47caba15ff31f339e74378fd3c05bcffa7091550/clojure-mode.el#L627
16:31	pjstadig	ToxicFrog: my computer is just a series of scripts, some that setup rlwrap for me (reliably) and others that use it
16:31	ToxicFrog	hiredman: if you care so little, why are you arguing so vehemently that this is something clojure should not have?
16:32	pjstadig	it's nice to be able to just type clojure and open a REPL whenever i want to answer some simple question
16:32	ToxicFrog	pjstadig: yeah, I'm just saying that a jline-based approach is probably more portable :)
16:32	hiredman	I expect (and hope) that additions to clojure (runtime, compiler, extras) are evaluated on "is this useful to people who know clojure" rather than "is this useful for people who don't know clojure"
16:33	ToxicFrog	hiredman: so, what, your argument is that once people know a language, they stop caring whether its REPL has readline support?
16:33	rlb	pjstadig: also, fwiw, the debs set up /usr/bin/clojure (and handle 1.2 vs 1.3 vs 1.4 via update-alternatives) by default.
16:33	ToxicFrog	I had no idea. Guess I might as well recompile lua, python and bash without readline enabled now.
16:34	technomancy	ToxicFrog: or you could write unrlwrap
16:34	ToxicFrog	true
16:34	ToxicFrog	That probably already exists, even
16:34	amalloy	technomancy: rcwrap
16:34	technomancy	for all non-ascii keystrokes, it just inserts HERP/DERP
16:35	zerokarmaleft	then rlwrap it again...inceptionwrap
16:35	llasram	amalloy: rc == read... console?
16:35	amalloy	character
16:35	llasram	ah!
16:35	pjstadig	rlb: i've been using clojure since before there were debian packages :)
16:35	mdeboard	hipster
16:35	hiredman	calling readline support a deal breaker, when it obviously isn't is just silly, like complaining about parens
16:35	gtrak	I think clojure.org could probably go along with the consensus and endorse leiningen at least, maybe not emacs
16:36	rlb	pjstadig: me too -- just mentioned them for anyone intereseted.
16:36	rlb	s//intereseted/interested/
16:36	technomancy	it's not an "impossible to get things done" deal breaker, it's a "I can tell that no thought has gone into the out-of-the-box experience, therefore I don't have time for this" deal breaker
16:37	ToxicFrog	hiredman: no-one is calling it that, though?
16:37	pjstadig	sidenote: i think it's probably better to have the clojure versions in stalled separately, instead of with update-alternatives, since there are incompatibilities
16:37	rlb	llasram: oh, and wrt the emacs 24 debs, we may or may not get them in to wheezy, but they'll still be in unstable. The release team hasn't told me what they want to do about it yet.
16:38	technomancy	rlb: is there still time for bribes?
16:38	gtrak	(inc technomancy)
16:38	gtrak	~(inc technomancy)
16:38	clojurebot	technomancy codes while wearing gravity boots to increase the blood flow to the face transplant he got after discovering the world does not treat build tool creators kindly
16:38	emezeske	hiredman: I think your argument is fair if we're talking about introducing people who have never programmed before to the language, maybe young kids or something. But anyone with some programming experience under their belt, that does not happen to be an ascetic monk, is going to balk at a REPL without readline. They'll also balk at having to go around and download dependencies, and transitive dependencies, thinking the whole time, "Why they hell am
16:38	rlb	hah -- I asked them a few days ago, but I wanted to give them time to get back to me. I'm sure they're swamped/crazy atm.
16:38	technomancy	sure
16:39	emezeske	hiredman: In other words, if you introduced me, an experienced programmer, to clojure without mentioning leiningen, I would smack you when I found out about it.
16:39	hiredman	emezeske: that is obviously not true
16:39	llasram	I'm glad wheezy is going to be out soon, but I'm not glad that the clock will start ticking on all the squeeze systems my company has in production :-)
16:39	hiredman	emezeske: there were people using clojure professionally before lien existed
16:39	ToxicFrog	emezeske: your first one cut off at "why the hell am"
16:39	gtrak	$lazybot are you dead?
16:39	emezeske	ToxicFrog: le sigh
16:40	gtrak	Raynes: lazybot is dead!
16:40	rlb	llasram: and for some people the gnome 3 transition is likely to be "jarring".
16:40	Raynes	Long live lazybot!
16:40	technomancy	man... I'm still having a hard time believing I actually wrote M-x clojure-install
16:40	Raynes	technomancy: We were all young once.
16:40	Raynes	Some of us still are.
16:40	ToxicFrog	Anyways, I'm sick of arguing with a brick wall, time to get some groceries and write some code. Laters.
16:40	emezeske	hiredman: Well, they filed their "balk" away in the "I hope someone does that, and soon" cabinet, and kept working. Or in technomancy's case, they didn't file it away, and fixed the problem.
16:40	Raynes	amalloy: I just tried to ssh lazybot.
16:40	emezeske	hiredman: Or, they were ascetic monks.
16:41	hiredman	emezeske: and some (crazy) people are using maven for clojure projects
16:41	scriptor	early adopters tend to be more tolerant of these kinds of things
16:41	technomancy	emezeske: OTOH, if we keep self-selecting for people with extremely high yak-shaving tolerance it might be easier to get more pull requests on tooling =)
16:41	emezeske	hiredman: shudder
16:42	llasram	technomancy, hiredman: Re: "no time for this", exactly. And for specific harm, that made it much harder to generate sufficient interest for adoption at my company
16:42	emezeske	technomancy: True enough!
16:43	emezeske	hiredman: I, like you, feel no need to evangelize the language. I guess all I'm arguing for is that if an experienced programmer walks in the door, we mention leiningen. No need to force it, but there's a good chance they'll like to know from day one.
16:45	rlb	technomancy: I haven't used lein much yet (just for some testing with noir) -- and I wondered if lein was compatable with, or had anything like, maven repository managers for cases where you wanted more control over the incoming items (i.e. to allow vetting, support reproducibility, offline builds, etc.).
16:46	technomancy	rlb: sure, you can use lein with nexus and co.
16:46	technomancy	just add :omit-default-repos true and add them to :repositories
16:46	rlb	ok, thanks -- are the main ones these days nexus and artifactory?
16:46	technomancy	and archiva
16:46	gtrak	there are smart lisp programmers out there that hate the jvm already, and beginners that need a better experience. The 'clojure is a better java' crowd is less sensitive to this sort of thing.
16:47	technomancy	I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have bothered with Clojure if swank hadn't existed
16:50	emezeske	technomancy: No way I'd have bothered with clojure if leiningen didn't exist. I have better things to do than to track down JARs by hand, or deal with maven directly.
16:53	gtrak	lazybot: hi!
16:58	gfredericks	(dec lazybot)
16:58	lazybot	⇒ 6
16:58	gtrak	(inc technomancy)
16:58	lazybot	⇒ 33
16:58	gtrak	there
17:00	gfredericks	(inc me)
17:00	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:06	cemerick	emezeske: More than any other thing, I think you can attribute the growth of Clojure to the maturation of Leiningen.
17:07	cemerick	technomancy shouldn't have to ever buy another drink ever again at any Clojure gathering. :-)
17:07	zerokarmaleft	cheers, thanks for all the yak-shaving
17:07	technomancy	aw shucks you guys...
17:10	llasram	The morning of Nov 16th, technomancy lies dead from alcohol poisoning. Fortunately he is restored from backup by that evening
17:11	Raynes	cemerick: Not going to tell you how many times it took me reading that sentence to realize that you said 'maturation' and not something else very similar but much less appropriate.
17:12	cemerick	llasram: heroku should have a follower ready, yeah?
17:12	cemerick	Raynes: Twisted basterd.
17:12	cemerick	:-)
17:13	rickmode	code master__tion is more of a Java thing
17:13	llasram	Cool feature!
17:13	tmciver	Raynes is a master debater.
17:14	Hodapp	rickmode: bah?
17:14	gtrak	we once had that broadcast on the high school intercom
17:17	cemerick	gfredericks: they each have their place
17:17	cemerick	people mature, wine maturates :-)
17:17	cemerick	</pedantry>
17:17	gfredericks	:)
17:17	emezeske	cemerick: I wouldn't find that at all surprising
17:18	gfredericks	wait it must be an actual work musn't it
17:18	gfredericks	word*
17:20	cemerick	gfredericks: what, "maturate"?
17:21	rickmode	maturegery
17:23	craigbro	that sounds dirty
17:28	gfredericks	cemerick: I rarely maken't up words
17:29	cemerick	gfredericks: makenut is totally a word!
18:27	aphyr	What's the minimal amount of code required to extend-protocol IPersistentMap?
18:27	aphyr	Do I need to define all the methods of Seqable, IPersistentCollection, Associative, etc?
18:29	hiredman	aphyr: your question makes no sense, IPersistentMap is not a protocol, and none of Seqable, IPersistentCollection, and Associative are either
18:30	aphyr	Yeah. but IPersistentMap extends those interfaces
18:30	hiredman	so?
18:31	aphyr	Well IPersistentMap iteself only consists of assoc, assocEx, and without
18:31	hiredman	none of those things are protocols, so "how can I do protocol things with things that are not protocols" is your question?
18:31	aphyr	Er, wow, yeah, you're right.
18:31	hiredman	java interfaces are not protocols
18:31	aphyr	Sorry, having a brain fart.
18:32	aphyr	Guessing I need to use proxy then
18:32	aphyr	Which... aw fuck it, might as well just extract the whole fucking thing into a hashmap
18:32	hiredman	reify, defrecord, and deftype all can extend interfaces or have protocols extended to them
18:32	technomancy	usually a safe bet
18:33	aphyr	Yeah, I am knee-deep in a salesforce library right now
18:33	aphyr	trying to make it slightly less absurdly javaesque
18:33	aphyr	https://github.com/teamlazerbeez/sf-api-connector/blob/master/sf-api-core/src/main/java/com/teamlazerbeez/crm/sf/core/SObject.java
18:33	brehaut	aphyr: my condolences
18:33	aphyr	Long story, don't ask
18:33	aphyr	want to shoot myself
18:34	aphyr	Would like, ideally, to use these suckers as maps
18:34	aphyr	(but also support their metadata operations)
18:34	hiredman	https://github.com/arohner/clj-wallhack
18:35	aphyr	.... awesome
18:35	hiredman	you can create objects that present a map like view over another object pretty easily, I don't mean you should use the reflection stuff in clj-wallhack, but it has some examples
18:35	aphyr	Yeah, torn between constructing maps and putting some stuff into metadata
18:35	hiredman	you can also use reflection to generate a function that turns an object in to a map (like bean)
18:36	hiredman	don't put stuff in metadata unless it is metadata
18:36	aphyr	or wrapping sobjects in a defrecord which gives them map semantics
18:36	hiredman	a good rule of thumb for metadata is "is this ancillary data about this other data, that should change equality relationships"
18:37	hiredman	er
18:37	hiredman	should not
18:37	aphyr	Ugh, honestly, I don't understand the SFDC api well enough yet to say
18:37	aphyr	Just trying to get some human-readable structures out of this fucker
18:38	hiredman	aphyr: language in #clojure is generally around pg to pg-13
18:38	aphyr	"
18:39	technomancy	http://wondermark.com/136/
18:39	aphyr	abominable self-consuming WSDL human centipede
18:44	technomancy	we could use some more intense sequences of violent action in here though
18:44	hiredman	~GUARDS
18:44	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:45	brehaut	,(repeatedly launch-the-missiles)
18:45	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: launch-the-missiles in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
18:45	brehaut	damn
18:48	amalloy	(dorun (repeatedly launch-the-missiles)), or you'll just lazily do nothing
18:53	emezeske	technomancy: Your nick, plus that violent action sequence, makes me think you've played shadowrun
18:53	technomancy	every single youtube clip of the bike sequence from Project A is only offered in non-html5 format =(
18:54	technomancy	emezeske: no, I was thinking of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecsGvqvskXw
18:54	technomancy	at least I think that's it
18:55	aphyr	sf_commute.mp4
18:55	technomancy	oops, it's a dubbed version; my bad
18:55	emezeske	Oh, jackie
19:09	pepijndevos	Using zippers, how can I insert a child a the root, and not lose my current position?
19:13	pepijndevos	Because if I do (z/insert-child (z/root loc) :foo), I have no idea where loc was.
19:23	llasram	I think paredit-mode needs a command for "oops, I accidentally typed M-( when really I just needed (". So (foo (bar\| (baz))) -> (foo (bar) baz)
19:23	llasram	Er, (foo (bar\| (baz))) -> (foo (bar) (baz))
19:25	amalloy	llasram: isn't that just forward-barf?
19:25	llasram	Ask and ye shall receive! Also, no idea how I didn't make that connection
19:26	llasram	(inc amalloy)
19:26	lazybot	⇒ 25
19:27	augustl	how does with-redefs work for namespaced stuff? I have a bunch of vars in myapp.env/some-var, and want to redefine them for some testing. I typically refer to them as env/some-var via an :as in the require.
19:28	llasram	augustl: Works as you'd expect/hope. The namespace aliases effect all resolution within the namespace defining the alias
19:29	augustl	ah, so it's not a purely symbolic thing
19:29	augustl	for some reason I thought it was
19:29	llasram	s,effect,affect, <- spelling!
19:30	llasram	Yep! It took me a bit to get my head around, but once you have the right mental model, it's entirely consistent
19:31	augustl	was useful to see that it just ends up calling .bindRoot on the internal clojure.lang.Var object
19:32	llasram	Heh. I was going to mention that reading the Java implementation helps, but didn't want to risk scaring off :-)
19:33	mdeboard	So I'm working with this Java 'Document' class from the iText library. In order to perform operations with it you have to manually call its `.open' method. I wrote this modified "with-open" macro to handle cleanup for me: https://gist.github.com/f057008587243ea585ad ... However when I try to call it like such I get an error indicating that it's closed: https://gist.github.com/f9cbff8c6cd9eba9aae5
19:33	mdeboard	Am I missing something important about the nature of these context manager macros or
19:34	llasram	mdeboard: Probably not? What's with-pdf look like?
19:34	mdeboard	llasram: it's in the first link
19:35	llasram	Man, I'm 0 for n on following the right link today
19:35	mdeboard	hehe
19:36	mdeboard	the PdfCopy class needs a Document instance in its constructor, but it can't already be an opened instance, so it's really quite annoying.
19:37	llasram	Random side-note FYI: I see you've followed clojure.core/with-open as a template. (a) It's written way more defensively than I've found useful in my own macros (but, hey in the stdlib that's probably good), and (b) as amalloy clued me in too, you can get much nicer-reading recursive macros by just using `reduce` to build-up the recursive structure. (with-open may not do that because all the stdlib isn't defined yet)
19:37	mdeboard	but the Document instance you call .open against has to be the SAME document that you pass PdfCopy :P
19:38	mdeboard	dat stateful programming
19:38	mdeboard	llasram: noted
19:38	hiredman	you can also just define a recursive macro
19:39	hiredman	(defmacro f [& xs] (if (seq xs) `(f ~@(rest xs)) 1))
19:42	hiredman	which is what with-open does anyway, I'm not sure why you would advocate reduce over that
19:42	amalloy	mdeboard: you're double-evaluating the value part of the let-binding
19:43	amalloy	seeing ~(bindings 1) twice is a huge red flag
19:43	mdeboard	I see
19:43	llasram	That's a bug, but I don't think what's causing the behavior mdeboard is seeing though...
19:44	amalloy	for sure it is
19:44	mdeboard	hell it might actually
19:44	mdeboard	yeah if it's calling .open on a different Document instance
19:44	mdeboard	damn I hate OOP so much sometimes.
19:45	mdeboard	so, should I do the conditional check inside the let binding then amalloy
19:45	amalloy	it's not at all clear why you even have the if-check there
19:45	mdeboard	defensive programming
19:45	sjl	Has someone shaved the "append trailing slashes and redirect" yak in Noir yet?
19:45	amalloy	those are words, not a reason
19:45	amalloy	just try to call .open on it, and if it doesn't support .open that'll break
19:45	mdeboard	because I wanted to return a useful exception if someone tried to bind a symbol to an invalid piece ofdata
19:45	llasram	I must be missing something. The dup'd call is applying `pdf?` to the value and binding the let to the value, right? But the binding is what calls `.open`, so...
19:46	amalloy	yes, and ClassCastException is useful, whereas IllegalArgumentException is of questionable value
19:47	amalloy	llasram: good point, it looks sorta like it should work
19:48	augustl	how do I pass a var pointing to a vector to a macro that takes a vector? Normally it's (with-redefs [foo bar] ...), I need (with-redefs my-vec ...), but it's erroring with "Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol"
19:48	amalloy	but with such a serious problem as double-evaluating the value i wouldn't make any firm statements about it
19:50	mdeboard	this is my first macro so it's kind of a brain bender
19:51	llasram	augustl: You can only get that kind of behavior in a macro. `with-redefs` is itself a macro, and requires a vector argument at macro-expansion time
19:51	mdeboard	s/so/and/
19:51	augustl	llasram: seems like a ~ solved it
19:52	llasram	augustl: Oh, so you were already writing a macro then :-)
19:52	augustl	and passing symbols too of course, so the vec is defined as ['foo bar] instead of [foo bar]
19:52	augustl	no I wasn't, I'm just calling it
19:52	augustl	so I'm kind of surprised :)
19:53	augustl	heh it also didn't actually work :)
19:54	llasram	I don't even -- what?:
19:54	augustl	so there's no way to pass a reference to a vector to a macro that expects an inline vector?
19:54	llasram	&(let [foo ['foo 1]] (with-redefs ~foo foo))
19:54	lazybot	⇒ [foo 1]
19:54	llasram	wtf is that even doing?
19:54	augustl	:S
19:55	llasram	augustl: You can-ish, but only from another macro with is generating code which expands to with-redefs. When with-redefs gets expanded, its argument needs to be a literal vector
19:55	augustl	that's weird, because it's not working for me, I was just reading it wrong
19:55	llasram	s,with,which,
19:55	augustl	ah, I see
19:57	augustl	makes sense, I need to inject stuff macro expansion time, not runtime
19:57	amalloy	&'~foo
19:57	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/unquote foo)
19:57	llasram	Exactly
19:57	amalloy	&(let [foo ['foo 1]] (with-redefs ~foo clojure.core/unquote))
19:57	lazybot	⇒ [foo 1]
19:57	llasram	amalloy: I just figured that out :-) Fun times
19:58	amalloy	see also with-redefs-fn
20:00	augustl	is "?form" from https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Setup%2C-Teardown%2C-and-State a special thing? The question mark, I mean. Or is it just a name?
20:01	technomancy	augustl: it's just a name, albeit a weird one
20:01	technomancy	maybe a convention for logic variables?
20:02	llasram	The Midje documentation uses it in a few places to just indicate arbitrary user-provided values/forms
20:02	augustl	I see
20:03	llasram	Wait, I lied
20:04	augustl	the fact that midje tests are in macros is a pita some times..
20:04	llasram	It's a literal symbol which Midje considers special. But Midje is the thing considering the specific symbol `?form` special, not Clojure etc
20:04	augustl	that is, you need to know your way around macros, so if you don't (like me), midje tests can be a pita :)
20:05	llasram	Yeah, I've so far only used Midje with cascalog-midje, because the extra helpers are very nice. But I tried using it for regular code an quickly went back to just clojure.test
20:06	mdeboard	oh man I love cascalog-midje
20:06	mdeboard	amazing
20:06	augustl	yay, made it work using with-redefs-fn
21:15	gert	who should I contact if I suspect I found a vulnerability in Ring? weavejester?
21:15	weavejester	gert: Yep
21:15	gert	I made a simple lein project to illustrate something that may be a problem.
21:16	gert	what's the best way of getting it to you?
21:16	weavejester	gert: A zip in an email, maybe?
21:17	gert	I've got the zip (well, tgz if that's ok). not your email though. Can I find that on github?
21:17	weavejester	gert: Yep, or you can have it here: jreeves@weavejester.com
21:17	gert	cheers! I'll get in touch.
21:25	atoi	Anyone in here use Riemann?
21:25	atoi	I know aphyr does, but I don't think he's about. :)
21:26	aphyr	I'm here
21:26	atoi	Oh! Nevermind!
21:26	atoi	It finally showed up.
21:26	gert	weavejester: you've got mail :)
21:26	atoi	I think rate works different than I thought.
21:26	aphyr	Take this to #riemann?
21:27	atoi	yes.
21:30	benedikt	Emacs + Clojure is really confusing.
21:30	gert	Emacs + anything is really confusing :)
21:31	benedikt	Clojure is the most confuisng adventure so far.
21:31	gert	what confuses you?
21:31	benedikt	I have two clojure interpreters
21:31	benedikt	lein and clojure (ubuntu package)
21:32	benedikt	i need a "project" to use clojure-jack-in, and i need lein to create a project to use with emacs
21:32	benedikt	but then emacs proceeds to use the other clojure interpreter.
21:32	benedikt	and it also seems to leave a tcp port open for the world
21:32	gert	you mean you need a project.clj for clojure-jack-in right?
21:33	benedikt	yes
21:33	gert	which is, clojure-jack-in relies on leiningen, which needs the project.clj
21:33	benedikt	right
21:33	benedikt	but why doesnt it use the lein repl?
21:33	gert	it does - through slime/swank
21:34	benedikt	that, and the world readable port, is what confuses me
21:34	benedikt	well no
21:34	gert	can you start a repl from outside of emacs?
21:34	benedikt	yes. as a matter of fact, two different ones
21:34	benedikt	lein has 1.4 and the ubuntu package provided 1.3
21:34	benedikt	and (clojure-version) inside emacs with slime/swank is 1.3
21:35	gert	in your project.clj, is there a dependency on clojure? does that say [org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"] or 1.3.0?
21:35	benedikt	yup
21:35	benedikt	so lein provides both 1.3 and 1.4?
21:35	gert	which one? :)
21:35	benedikt	1.3 is in project.clj
21:36	benedikt	which explains that part
21:36	gert	ah, that's why your clojure version is 1.3
21:36	benedikt	but i'm still not sure what binary is being used
21:36	gert	because you're asking for it :)
21:36	benedikt	sounds like it should be the lein one
21:36	gert	if you're on the commandline, you can type `lein classpath`
21:36	benedikt	its created with "lein new"
21:36	gert	that will show you what jars (including the clojure jar) leiningen is using
21:36	clojurebot	Roger.
21:37	benedikt	its downloded with maven, sure smells like clojure
21:37	gert	lein and slime/swank will happily use what you specify in your project.clj - your other (ubuntu provided) clojure has nothing to do with it
21:37	benedikt	hurr, lein.
21:37	benedikt	so what about this word readable port
21:37	gert	yeah good point.
21:37	gert	not sure
21:37	benedikt	can't i bind it to my localhost interface?
21:37	benedikt	i'm not behind a NAT
21:38	benedikt	so i feel sort of... naked.
21:38	gert	yeah i get that
21:38	amalloy	i think it does bind to localhost, doesn't it?
21:38	benedikt	nope
21:40	gert	looks like you're right benedikt. if I do 'lsof \| grep IPv4 \| grep java'
21:40	benedikt	yup
21:40	gert	I see TCP *:61521 (LISTEN)
21:41	benedikt	but this should be an issue with swank/slime, right?
21:41	benedikt	i'm figuring out how this all is connected
21:41	benedikt	now i can google
21:41	benedikt	i'll report back with results
21:41	gert	I have results
21:41	Iceland_jack	good luck benedikt
21:41	gert	I just asked my workmate to telnet into my machine on that port
21:41	gert	with great success
21:41	gert	that's kinda bad eh :)
21:43	gert	amalloy: is that supposed to happen?
21:43	amalloy	shrug
21:43	benedikt	gert: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3747291/clojure-swank-server-opens-public-port
21:43	benedikt	see the answer from Arthur Ulfeldt. I have only telneted to be port, not tried to connect with swank.
21:43	benedikt	but since it's still there listening..
21:43	gert	yup
21:44	gert	I'm connected. and it's still listening.
21:44	benedikt	sama here
21:44	benedikt	same*
21:45	gert	and I can happily establish a telnet connection
21:45	benedikt	yeah same here. and according to the SO post, connecting with slime works too
21:46	gert	hm. that worries me.
21:47	gert	Michal Marczyks comment on that SO post looks helpful
21:48	benedikt	mark Derricutt
21:48	benedikt	Mark Derricutt posts about how to it with mavne
21:50	duck1123	hopefully, that port is blocked by your firewall anyway, but you can tell it the ip to listen on
21:51	gert	clojure-mode.el calls 'lein jack-in', and lein jack-in only accepts a port number, not an interface
21:51	gert	s/interface/ip address/
21:51	benedikt	where is clojure-mode.el supposed to live?
21:51	weavejester_	gert: I got your mail. I don't think there's any way of exploiting it except via an XSS attack (which screws you anyway), but it's behavior that should be changed.
21:52	duck1123	you don't have to use jack-in, you can run swank other was
21:53	gert	cheers weavejester_. I'm creating my own SessionStore that won't allow it
21:53	duck1123	that's actually a bit surpising that jack-in defaults to 0.0.0.0, I can understand why swank would, but I'd think that jack in would limit that more
21:54	weavejester_	gert: I'm planning on fixing it tomorrow. I'm going to release Ring 1.1.2 then anyway.
21:54	gert	awesome!
21:57	gert	duck1123: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/lein-swank/src/leiningen/jack_in.clj says it's connecting to localhost.. hm.
21:57	cljr	does anyone know the policy on submitting posts to the mailing lists? I posted (or tried) to post a message today about my experiences using Clojure to develop a crowdfunding site for open source projects, but it seems to have been rejected. is plugging a site not allowed?
21:59	duck1123	cljr: if this was your first post, it may be in moderation, or did it say it was rejected?
22:00	duck1123	That doesn't sound too spammy, people announce their stuff all the time
22:00	cljr	duck1123: yeah, most of the content was comparing languages
22:00	cljr	duck1123: never got a message that said it was rejected
22:00	duck1123	so it's probably just in the moderation queue
22:01	cljr	okay, that okay. i saw other posts had since gotten through to the list, didnt realize it was just first time users that had to go through approval
22:01	cljr	thats* okay rather
22:03	duck1123	I just recently got back from a user's group for a talk on clojure+android, but the speaker didn't know clojure very well. It was an interesting experience
22:03	cljr	ouch
22:03	duck1123	It's a shame there are so few clojure users in this area
22:03	cljr	what area is that?
22:03	duck1123	Detroit, MI
22:04	cljr	are there other large language communities there?
22:05	Frozenlock	Ok I know this is more a MongoDB than a clojure question, but hopefully some congomongo user will have an answer to this... Is there a way to make a "variable-capped-collection"? By that I mean that I want a maximum size for a given collection (say 1go), but I don't want to occupy a whole Go on my hard disk if I'm really only using 10k.
22:06	duck1123	there are plenty, it's just the detroit-clojure group never got going
22:06	eggsby	Frozenlock: usually I just use the mongo shell to set constraints on the collections
22:06	eggsby	congomongo doesn't really provide much in terms of a configuration interface
22:06	Frozenlock	Oh, so I is possible to set an upper limit?
22:06	Frozenlock	*it
22:07	eggsby	Frozenlock: http://www.mongodb.org/display/DOCS/Capped+Collections
22:07	duck1123	pre-allocated
22:08	Frozenlock	eggsby: Well yes, but I don't want to lock down unused space
22:08	Frozenlock	Btw, you don't need to use the shell if you want to create a capped collection :)
22:08	Frozenlock	(create-collection! "asdf" :capped true :size 10000....)
22:10	duck1123	I wonder if you could build something that would auto-rotate to larger collections as space filled
22:10	duck1123	probably more work than it's worth
22:12	Frozenlock	Smells really hacky. Could work, but could fail sooooo badly :P
22:14	duck1123	I guess it would really depend on if you already need the ability to manipulate collections. Are you creating a lot of these collections?
22:15	Frozenlock	I intend to create hundreds...
22:15	gfredericks	any guesses why my definition of permuto diverges? https://gist.github.com/3185823
22:15	Frozenlock	I was going to cap them at 1go, but I stopped immediatly when I saw it was eating my harddrive live.
22:15	Frozenlock	on nom nom nom
22:18	dnolen	gfredericks: it's almost always the same, you program allows unground variables to grow.
22:19	dnolen	gfredericks: appendo suffers from this problem as well.
22:19	gfredericks	dnolen: I was looking for that but couldn't see where :/
22:20	dnolen	gfredericks: I would compare your version against the one in core.logic
22:20	gfredericks	ha; I didn't know there was one :) thanks
22:22	dnolen	gfredericks: it's new :) it's in master
22:22	dnolen	gfredericks: thank amalloy
22:28	dnolen	gfredericks: I've got some ideas about how to deal with that, but that's probably slated for the next bigrelease - so time away.
22:28	dnolen	not anytime soon I mean.
22:29	gfredericks	huh; so he deals with one element at a time while I tried two; but when I try to switch mine to work like his I get repeat results :)
22:30	amalloy	direct bug reports to dnolen: i implemented permuteo in a way he thought was ugly, so his version is the one in master; i just provided the idea
22:30	gfredericks	I haven't checked if the core.logic version also repeats
22:30	dnolen	amalloy: haha, no I didn't look at your version closely.
22:30	gfredericks	so it might just be a bug in my mimickery
22:30	dnolen	amalloy: I nearly always defer to existing Prolog versions so I can save my brain power for other things.
22:40	georgek	hi, I started doing 4Clojure and on 'count a sequence' my answer returned 'you tripped the alarm! count is bad!' even though I'm not using count, does anyone know what this means?
22:42	eggsby	georgek: the idea is to be able to solve it without using count
22:42	georgek	without counting at all that is, not just the 'count' fn?
22:42	eggsby	no, without using the count function
22:43	georgek	yes, I'm not using count, but my answer triggers the error still
22:43	eggsby	:O
22:43	georgek	am I missing something
22:43	eggsby	perhaps you are using something that uses count internally?
22:44	georgek	this was my (probably incorrect) answer, https://www.refheap.com/paste/3824
22:49	eggsby	georgek: for uses 'count' internall
22:50	eggsby	georgek: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L4088
22:51	eggsby	you should be able to do it only using 'fn' and 'recur' fwiw
22:51	eggsby	well, maybe some others, inc or + or w/e
22:51	georgek	thanks eggsby
22:51	georgek	I'm working on a different answer with looping now
22:52	eggsby	is this your first functional lang georgek ?
22:52	georgek	pretty much
22:53	eggsby	it's a heck of a shift, I came from python where everything was for .. in .. if .. else ..
22:53	georgek	ha
22:53	georgek	yes most of my experience is Python
22:54	eggsby	the early stuff in 4clojure, it's mostly solved by recursion until you can use the lang builtins, but getting a hang of stuff like reduce takes most people a while
22:54	amalloy	well, for is still great in clojure (better imo, but i'm not much of a python enthusiast)
22:55	eggsby	amalloy: yah, python has list comprehension as well, but I think clojure's is nicer (since you can have full power inside your comprehensions)
22:55	brehaut	for in clj is closer to a generator comprehension in python
22:56	dnolen	brehaut: really closer to Haskell list comprehensions given how fancy they are.
22:57	brehaut	dnolen: however not entirely relevant when making a comparison to something in python ;)
22:57	gfredericks	oh man there is a clojure coffee mug
22:58	eggsby	where do I get it gfredericks
22:58	gfredericks	http://www.zazzle.com/clojure_mug_i_get_more_done_when_im_lazy_v2-168060469711592507
22:58	gfredericks	I'm having a hard time not getting it
22:59	tmciver	gfredericks: cool! The text in the picture looks like crap though.
22:59	eggsby	ya, not sure what's up with that font
22:59	gfredericks	it is hipster
23:00	eggsby	dnolen: I enjoyed your core.logic talk posted on vimeo recently, if only I could find an excuse to use it at work...
23:00	technomancy	benedikt: swank hasn't defaulted to 0.0.0.0 in a really long time
23:00	technomancy	but if you're confused I recommend starting at https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/doc/index.md and ignoring all OS-level clojure packages
23:01	gfredericks	dnolen: looks like clojure.core.logic/permuteo diverges as well (which is odd given the last thing I said about it); should I make a ticket in jira?
23:02	dnolen	huzzah!
23:02	dnolen	288 commits later http://github.com/clojure/core.logic/compare/89fac76158...e6d5d2286e
23:02	dnolen	cKanren extensions in master
23:02	gfredericks	oh snaps
23:02	dnolen	gfredericks: I'd rather you confirm that it's not issue in Prolog first.
23:03	dnolen	gfredericks: divergence is a real problem, not easily solved.
23:03	dnolen	gfredericks: in the nature of the system.
23:06	brehaut	what‽
23:07	gfredericks	kiwis: because they just have more energy at this time of the tomorrow.
23:08	brehaut	haha
23:09	brehaut	i have forgotten way too much prolog
23:09	gfredericks	brehaut says it halts in prolog
23:10	amalloy	gfredericks: can you test my impl of permuteo at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11256242/solving-dinesmans-multiple-dwelling-example-using-clojures-core-logic-core-mat/11280559#11280559 ? i don't know what you're doing to check divergence
23:10	gfredericks	amalloy: (run 3 [q] (permuteo q [1 2]))
23:10	amalloy	but do it for me cause i'm too lame to do it myself?
23:11	gfredericks	:)
23:11	dnolen	gfredericks: I doubt that works in Prolog.
23:11	gfredericks	brehaut just tried http://www.dreamincode.net/code/snippet3411.htm
23:11	brehaut	dnolen: gfredericks have me a snippet of code he told me was equivalent, and i ran it for him
23:11	gfredericks	which looks equivalent to the core.logic code
23:12	dnolen	gfredericks: I think I used this, http://colin.barker.pagesperso-orange.fr/sands.htm
23:15	dnolen	gfredericks: if you're going to open a ticket it should include the equivalent Prolog and better solution if actually exists.
23:16	dnolen	gfredericks: chances are you can write the solution slightly differently only for it diverge with a different set of ground unground terms.
23:18	gfredericks	I just noticed the prolog versions don't seem to have the != constraint
23:18	gfredericks	hard to imagine that would make a difference
23:18	gfredericks	or at least this kind of difference
23:19	amalloy	fwiw gfredericks, my version doesn't diverge
23:19	amalloy	(run 3 [q] (permuteo q [1 2])) ;; ((1 2) (2 1))
23:21	gfredericks	amalloy: and your rembero doesn't have the != either
23:21	dnolen	gfredericks: don't think != matters much here.
23:21	dnolen	checking now
23:21	amalloy	well, mine is to remove any one x, not specifically the first x
23:21	gfredericks	right
23:21	amalloy	but it's slower
23:22	gfredericks	and the difference shouldn't matter when you're permuting a list of distinct things
23:22	dnolen	amalloy: does yours diverge for run 3 (permuteo [1 2] q)?
23:23	amalloy	dnolen: yes
23:23	dnolen	amalloy: as I suspected
23:23	dnolen	anyways, I have some ideas to solve this issue - but it ain't happening anytime soon.
23:24	gfredericks	oh prolog diverges too when you reverse the args :D
23:25	gfredericks	man logic programming is hard
23:26	brehaut	lets go shopping
23:26	gfredericks	I want a new conso action figure
23:26	gfredericks	dnolen: thanks for the clarification
23:27	gfredericks	what is the X in CLP(X)?
23:27	gfredericks	integers up to 10? :)
23:55	Frozenlock	Seems I will not have other choices than to make my own maximum-size-collection function. Is there a way to obtain the size of a collection from congomongo?