#clojure – 2012-07-25

2012-07-25

00:10	emezeske	Apparently (pr ...) in clojurescript is pretty slow, especially in older browsers. Are there any tricks to make that faster (e.g. undocumented options, etc)?
00:14	dnolen	emezeske: not that I'm aware of. printing is slow - but I haven't looked closely at why.
00:15	dnolen	emezeske: I'm assuming your serializing something?
00:15	emezeske	dnolen: Yeah, just a big map of maps
00:15	emezeske	dnolen: I've been using pr-str/read-string for serialization, and it's been fine up until now, when I tried to serialize something a bit larger
00:16	emezeske	dnolen: Confusingly, it looks like the reader is substantially faster...
00:16	dnolen	emezeske: serialization is very slow in CLJS, pr variants & the reader need a lot of optimization work.
00:16	emezeske	dnolen: Okay, thanks! I just wanted to make sure there weren't any easy outs before I dug in deeper
00:16	dnolen	emezeske: I did some basic optimization work on the reader. never looked closely at printing.
00:18	emezeske	dnolen: I might end up looking at optimizing the print stuff.
00:24	dnolen	emezeske: printing is elegantly written around lazy sequences. I can't imagine that be any good for performance.
01:07	amalloy	dnolen: i may start stealing that out of context. "X is elegant: I can't imagine it being any good performance-wise"
02:11	emezeske	Warning to anyone using Vim with paredit.vim: the wikipedia.vim plugin annihilates performance for editing clj files for some reason. For the last 6 months, I just thought that paredit.vim was slow. Little did I know, it was wikipedia.vim the whole time, somehow leaking its slowness everywhere.
02:18	gert	"leaking its slowness everywhere" <- quote of the day
02:22	emezeske	Woo! I should drink and IRC more
02:26	gert	that is good advice for anything in life.
02:36	emezeske	gert: /agree
02:49	ambrosebs	Type inference anyone? https://gist.github.com/3174648 :)
02:50	noidi_	ambrosebs, congrats!
02:52	noidi	you're well on your way to solving clojure's "indecipherable error messages" problem
02:53	ambrosebs	noidi: thanks :)
02:54	ambrosebs	noidi: Now I just need to somehow communicate to an IDE which exact form to highlight :)
02:55	ambrosebs	Which could be a bit tricky with macroexpansion...
03:01	djcoin	ambrosebs: i just saw now your "typed-clojure" project on github. Do you think it will be possible to add type (for safety, optimization, etc.) to Clojure ?
03:01	ambrosebs	djcoin: Right now it's for safety.
03:02	ambrosebs	The plan is to make a completely optional type checker, probably part of contrib
03:02	ambrosebs	I can get surprisingly accurate results, so I'm confident it will work.
03:04	djcoin	ambrosebs: awesome :)
03:05	ambrosebs	The optimizing will come later.
03:05	djcoin	I hope there won't be too much problem/limitation. I guess it might not be obvious at all to do this kind of stuff
03:05	djcoin	Yeah, safety is way more important.
03:05	ambrosebs	There are several hurdles.
03:05	ambrosebs	Typing "assoc" is a pretty big one
03:06	ambrosebs	The "rest arguments in pairs" is problematic
03:06	ambrosebs	Also "comp" is just crazy.
03:06	ambrosebs	Multimethods will be interesting.
03:08	djcoin	Ok
03:09	ambrosebs	djcoin: If you're interested, I summarise stuff in my proposal.
03:09	ambrosebs	And lit review
03:10	djcoin	Unfortunately I'm not a strong type's theorist but type is really important to me
03:11	djcoin	ambrosebs: I guess you may have checked typed-racket ?
03:11	ambrosebs	djcoin: Yes it is almost entirely based (copied) from typed-racket
03:11	djcoin	Oh, all right :)
03:12	ambrosebs	The big differences are interop, multimethods, heterogeneous map types
03:13	ambrosebs	ie. types for ad-hoc objects like {:op :if :expr {:number 1} ...}
03:13	djcoin	ambrosebs: that typed-racket implement but that will be hard on clojure ?
03:13	ambrosebs	No, typed-racket does not have any of these features
03:14	djcoin	Oh, all right
03:14	djcoin	I just heard of it - did not dig far
03:14	ambrosebs	djcoin: I have not tackled multimethods, but the other two are going well.
03:14	ro_st	-curious- what flavour of clj are you discussing?
03:15	ambrosebs	CLJ
03:15	ambrosebs	It will be simple to convert to CLJS
03:15	ambrosebs	Probably CLJ-CLR too.
03:15	ro_st	ah, so you're discussing a library then. which one?
03:15	ambrosebs	typed-clojure
03:15	ro_st	aha!
03:16	ambrosebs	djcoin: the main innovation of typed-clojure is nil-safe interop with Java.
03:16	djcoin	ambrosebs: thanks for your explanations :)
03:17	ambrosebs	Without option types.
03:17	ambrosebs	Still yet to be proved.
04:02	djcoin	ambrosebs: I know that my question may be irrelevant but how do you see Clojure vs (typed-)Racket ? The JVM and the java libs around are pretty interesting - otherwise I guess I would have try to dig rather in racket
04:04	ambrosebs	djcoin: In general? The Racket ecosystem is amazing. But the language is bloated.
04:04	ambrosebs	Comparing to Clojure, which is an unfair comparison I guess.
04:05	ambrosebs	Clojure has the data structures, and they're super easy to use.
04:05	djcoin	ambrosebs: by language you mean racket itself or the (quality, etc.) language beneath it ?
04:05	ambrosebs	djcoin: I was referring to the data structure ops.
04:05	ambrosebs	Clojure has first + rest
04:06	ambrosebs	and the seq abstraction
04:06	ambrosebs	Racket is a lot messier IMO
04:06	ambrosebs	Racket seems to be a fine language. Just seems a bit more of a chore to write in than Clojure for me.
04:07	ambrosebs	I'm heavily(!) biased of course.
04:07	ambrosebs	Go to #racket and ask them :)
04:07	djcoin	:)
04:07	djcoin	I already ask them once - about immutability and such
04:08	ambrosebs	Yes, that is one area that Clojure is much more consistent about.
04:08	djcoin	Did not get/remember much however.
04:08	djcoin	But I felt like the language was cleaner
04:09	djcoin	I'm not advanced enought to see what are the JVM and java libs environments limitations (despite their tremendous advantages)
04:10	ambrosebs	Hmm. Well methods aren't first class objects.
04:10	ambrosebs	But that's syntax.
04:10	ambrosebs	Error messages are bad.
04:12	ambrosebs	But if you want interop, it doesn't really get much better (without static typing).
04:12	ambrosebs	Scala generics are Java generics for example.
04:49	ro_st	is there a library i can use in both clj and cljs for xml munging - not DOM, xml
05:45	wingy	how do i access the property of a js object in cljs?
05:45	ro_st	(.property object-ref)
05:46	ro_st	eg
05:46	ro_st	(.log js/console "foo")
05:47	wingy	im trying this one: (.name (js-obj "name" "foo"))
05:47	wingy	in http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html
05:47	wingy	but it doesn't work
05:48	ro_st	buggered if i know :)
05:49	wingy	what?
05:49	clojurebot	What is seq
05:49	wingy	who?
05:52	ro_st	i've not had to do this myself, yet
05:52	wingy	hm
05:53	wingy	anyone knows how to do this?
05:54	wingy	i c
05:54	wingy	(.-name (js-obj "name" "foo"))
05:54	wingy	the doc says (.-property target-object -property)
05:54	wingy	what does the last one mean?
05:55	ro_st	a default?
05:58	wingy	what does -property mean?
05:58	wingy	could someone give an example?
05:58	rbarraud	Dagnabbit, there is no Kindle edition of The Joy Of Clojure on Amazon Kindle Store
05:59	rbarraud	Manning want $45 for the print book, Amazon has it for $26 ... eBook in 3 formats from Manning $35, Amazon doesn't have a (hopefully cheaper) alternative :(
05:59	_nmmn	well there is pdf version
05:59	rbarraud	on Amazon?
06:00	_nmmn	maybe not
06:00	_nmmn	http://manning.com/fogus/
06:00	rbarraud	or just as part of the 3-format eBook bundle on the Manning site?
06:00	_nmmn	yeah
06:00	_nmmn	had no problems reading it on my kindle fire =]
06:01	rbarraud	ah good to hear
06:01	rbarraud	well i am gonna bite the bullet and buy the bundle i guess c:)
06:01	rbarraud	seeing $44 vs $26 for pbook makes Manning's prices look a tad inflated though :-/
06:02	_nmmn	true, it could be way cheaper, i mean, it should!
06:02	rbarraud	have u read the Halloway book also? "Programming CLojure"
06:02	rbarraud	how do you think they compare?
06:02	_nmmn	i have it in queue, not yeat
06:02	_nmmn	*yet
06:02	rbarraud	there's also the Apress and Oreilly ones .... anyone have any comparative thoughts on them?
06:02	_nmmn	im now crunching "little schemer"
06:02	rbarraud	heheh
06:02	rbarraud	that's a goodie
06:03	rbarraud	i have the 3 of them in that series
06:03	_nmmn	and there is other one on scheme
06:03	_nmmn	ah cool =]
06:03	rbarraud	really only ~1/4 into the first one though
06:03	_nmmn	"seasoned schemer"
06:03	rbarraud	IIRC there are Little, Seasoned and Reasoned :)
06:04	_nmmn	i see, havent heard about reasoned =]
06:04	rbarraud	looks like i may have misplaced the 3rd
06:04	rbarraud	or i am confused or didnt buy it - or both :)
06:06	_nmmn	well i conviced my workplace to get em =] they seems to be reasonable regarding educating/learning/material
06:16	Leonidas	rbarraud: reasoned exists, but it is more about, well, logical reasoning, read kanren
06:16	mytrile	Hey, guys. How can I try 1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT ?
06:16	mytrile	This is in my project.clj :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.5.0-master-SNAPSHOT"]]
06:30	ro_st	is it possible to select multiple selectors at once with enlive?
06:30	ro_st	kinda like jquery's $('#one, #two')
06:31	ro_st	ah, use a set
06:40	rainerschuster	if two lists, the first one is a record read from a csv and the second describing the converter functions. How do I combine the two lists, so that the functions from list 2 are called to the arguemnts of list 1 pairwise
06:44	clgv	rainerschuster: e.g. (map #(%2 %1) list1 list2)
07:06	michaelr525	hello
07:26	ro_st	are the rules for using - and _ in filenames and namespaces different for clojurescript?
07:27	ro_st	ie, if i use - in a namespace name, i must use _ in the filename isntead
07:27	ro_st	instead
07:29	cshell_	no idea, ro_st :(
07:29	ro_st	it is consistent. i incorrectly named a cljs .clj
07:41	djcoin	Are their any good lib around for setting up an e-commerce site ?
07:41	ro_st	i don't think the open source ecosystem for clojure is quite there yet
07:41	ro_st	php? ruby? sure
07:43	_nmmn	i dont think clojure should compete on that market
07:43	ro_st	agreed
07:43	ro_st	it's a bad reason to write a lot of bad code :-)
07:43	_nmmn	;]
07:44	ro_st	and anyway, stuff like spreecommerce is great
07:44	_nmmn	well some backend stuff for e-commerce written on clojure would make sense, but rest...
07:44	djcoin	Why would Clojure not be a good fit at this ?
07:44	ro_st	it's not that it wouldn't be a good fit. by all means, spend a year building one.
07:45	ro_st	or you could grab spreecommerce and be selling shit by the end of the week
07:45	_nmmn	it just wouldnt outgrow competition, think, hosting, available clojure developers, etc etc...
07:46	ro_st	and it's a massive undertaking
07:46	ro_st	especially if you want to do a good job
07:46	ro_st	perhaps in 5-10 years when clojure has taken over the world
07:47	ro_st	but not right now :-)
07:47	_nmmn	hehe =]
07:47	djcoin	lol, it seems you went a bit too far from my question. I just was asking this because I was planning to use CLojure for my next project and it involves a bit of e-commerce features
07:48	ro_st	well, what do you mean when you say e-commerce?
07:48	_nmmn	i see no problem doing it, i thought you meant more "full featured open source e-commerce framework"
07:48	ro_st	to me, it means cart + orders + payment integrations + backend to manage inventory, orders, store cms.
07:49	ro_st	that's no trivial amount of work
07:49	djcoin	I mean Choosing products, putting it in a caert, payments process etc.
07:49	ro_st	you asked for a library
07:49	ro_st	therefore i assumed you wanted a general purpose framework
07:50	ro_st	you can roll your own that matches your exact requirements quite easily. but then you're doing everything yourself. e-commerce is a mature space, now
07:50	djcoin	Well I'm not into e-commerce so I don't really know all the components etc.
07:50	djcoin	Yep
07:51	djcoin	payment stuff would be enought
07:51	ro_st	affiliate marketing tracking, coupons, analytics up to your neck, all the security concerns, etc
07:51	ro_st	i honestly think you'd be better served using a 3rd party turnkey system
07:52	ro_st	unless you have a burning desire to do this in clojure for no reason other than to do it in clojure
07:52	duck1123	clojure would be an interesting system for something like that though, just be prepared to do a lot of work
07:52	antares_	e-commerce has a lot of parts to it, for some Clojure makes a lot of sense, for others something like Spree (http://spreecommerce.com/) is a much more pragmatic choice today.
07:52	ro_st	if you're selling products (as opposed to say just a single once-off payment for a single thing), then users have come to expect quite a bit from the site doing the selling
07:53	ro_st	clojure'd be great for moving data around on the back, especially at scale
07:54	djcoin	Yep
07:54	djcoin	(+ I don't like/know ruby much :troll: :) )
07:54	ro_st	but if you just want to sell stuff, you'd be far better served by shopify.com or spree
07:54	ro_st	spree is rails based but you don't have to touch the code to use it
07:55	ro_st	</sermon>
07:55	djcoin	Sure - but as a developer it is a pity to not be able to understand one of your key business component
07:55	djcoin	But why not
07:55	djcoin	THanks for your advice
07:56	duck1123	So, in the interest of "no top-level atoms," If you had a java factory method, something that takes a long time to init and should only be called once, where would store that. Just a top-level var or is there some better way?
07:57	duck1123	I currently have it in a var, but I want to revisit the decision before I move this out into it's own lib
07:58	ro_st	djcoin: i'm pretty sure that linux is a key business component of yours. do you understand it? hardware drivers? hardware itself?
07:58	antares_	duck1123: an init function + a var and defonce
07:58	ro_st	i'm saying that e-commerce has gotten to the point where it's another layer beneath your application, rather than a part of it
07:58	ro_st	like databases or email
07:58	ro_st	it's solved. it works
07:59	djcoin	ro_st: yep - so i guess this stuff is really flexible
07:59	ro_st	rather spend your precious finite energy and time on something interesting
07:59	djcoin	cause I won't customize kernel driveres myself
07:59	duck1123	antares_: a defonce inside the init?
07:59	ro_st	exactly
08:00	antares_	duck1123: yes, and init can be called from -main
08:01	duck1123	makes sense. I think I'll try that
08:24	stain	modprobe ecommerce
08:28	djcoin	x)
08:47	ro_st	yay managed to abstract xml wrangling away from the common clj/cljs code
08:47	ro_st	actually pretty easy to do in cljs, using goog.dom.xml
08:49	gtrak	is it easy to wrap jax-rs calls in a clojure jetty thing?
08:50	gtrak	a pre-existing jax-rs implementation, rather?
08:52	ro_st	jax-rs? wossat
08:52	gtrak	standardized REST annotations for java
08:53	gtrak	I guess i have to hook it up as servlet or something
08:53	ro_st	ah
08:53	ro_st	yeah probably
08:53	gtrak	silly java
09:02	wastrel	<3
09:12	gtrak	anyone know how to wrap a servlet as a ring handler?
09:12	gtrak	(the opposite of what is usually done)?
09:18	wingy	anyone knows if it's possible to have a vector as a value in datomic?
09:20	jonasen	wingy: Vectors are not supported
09:20	wingy	jonasen: ok
09:20	wingy	problematic
09:22	jonasen	wingy: multi-valued attributes are supported (i.e. sets)
09:22	wingy	i c
09:22	wingy	that's what i really want i guess
09:37	ro_st	what's the simplest way to render a static html page with ring/compojure?
09:38	wmealing	slurp it, return it
09:39	wmealing	i havn't used ring or compojure
09:39	wmealing	but thats how i'd do it in noir
09:39	ro_st	simple enough
09:40	ro_st	just realised i have to inject one paltry dynamic value, so enlive it is
09:40	mikem	wmealing: a friendly hello!
09:40	wmealing	hi hi !
09:40	mikem	will you be joining us at the meetup tomorrow? ;-)
09:40	wmealing	imagine meeting you here :)
09:41	wmealing	mikem, sadly.. i'm far away and can't fly there in time
09:41	wmealing	is there a clojure talk ?
09:42	wmealing	mikem, btw totally should have pimped lein harder in the talks ..
09:42	mikem	that's understandable. it's part 2 of a talk on agda, an insantely-strongly typed language for proofs
09:42	wmealing	who is giving that ?
09:46	juhu_chapa	Hi all! How do I pass a class to a method in clojure? i.e. foo(Class clazz)
09:47	Wild_Cat	juhu_chapa: Use the class directly.
09:47	mikem	wmealing: a chap named Gergo Erdi
09:47	wmealing	(function Class) ?
09:47	Wild_Cat	,(str Integer)
09:47	clojurebot	"class java.lang.Integer"
09:48	mikem	wmealing: anyway I gotta run. catch you later
09:48	wmealing	later mate.
09:49	juhu_chapa	thanks to all!
09:49	gtrak	can you live-update dependencies in lein2 yet?
09:50	antares_	gtrak: what do you mean by live-update?
09:50	gtrak	add a new one and have it come into the classpath during a swank session
09:50	antares_	no, I don't think so
09:50	antares_	it is something that should be supported by lein-swank
09:58	ro_st	how do i ensure that lein ring server will reload changes to source files?
10:04	wmealing	test ?
10:05	ro_st	well, it's not doing so at the moment. how do i make it do so? or am i mistaken in thinking that it supports this
10:18	clgv	ro_st: you might check how noir does it. with noir you would use "lein run" so the code in -main must be indirectly responsible
10:20	ro_st	ah, that makes sense
10:20	ro_st	thanks for the tip. i'll check it out.
10:21	ro_st	btw, enlive/enfocus is a fantastic way to do markup templating. really enjoying it
10:36	gtrak	ugh, does anyone else's emacs crash on autocomplete sometimes?
10:45	Cheiron	Hi, how to add elements to a vector inside doseq ? http://pastie.org/4330455
10:45	llasram	Cheiron: You don't
10:46	llasram	Cheiron: More helpfully, you probably want `reduce` instead
10:46	Cheiron	i need to collect elements issued by (items-generator)
10:46	llasram	gtrak: Actually... no. I'm honestly having a difficult time remembering the last time Emacs crashed on me
10:47	gtrak	llasram: hmm... it seems to be a regular thing for me on ubuntu snapshots, I could try starting over
10:47	wingy	ro_st: what project are you working on?
10:47	clgv	Cheiron: use (into [] (items-generator))
10:47	ro_st	wingy: v2 of www.cognician.com
10:48	ro_st	v1 is flex/air -puke-
10:48	Cheiron	then (items-generator) is going to be called twice, once for into and once for doseq
10:48	nDuff	Cheiron: Not if you store the sequence once.
10:48	nDuff	Cheiron: (let [items (items-generator)] ...)
10:48	ro_st	v1.5 is google closure javascript, now abandoned at 10kloc. rewrote about 80% of it in clojurescript in about 2 weeks. 1.5kloc.
10:49	clgv	Cheiron: or simply (vec (items-generator)) - you have to remove the doseq. doseq is only for side effects
10:49	nDuff	Cheiron: ...that will cache the sequence coming from the generator, so you can doseq over it once for your intended side effect ("send item to other function"), and concatenate it to the vector the usual/natural way.
10:50	nDuff	clgv: I gather that Cheiron _does_ intend some side effects, according to the comments in that code, but just shouldn't be trying to do the concatenation an the same time.
10:50	duck11231	Cheiron: if you combine doall and for, you get something like doseq, but it'll collect the returns
10:50	wingy	ro_st: cool
10:51	Cheiron	too many techniques .. what to choose?
10:52	clgv	Cheiron: the simplest^^
10:53	semperos	Cheiron: I think the bottom line is, doseq is only for side-effects
10:53	clgv	Cheiron: how about (let [v (vec (items-generator))] (doseq [e v] (side-effect e)) v) ?
10:55	clgv	Cheiron: (reduce #(conj %1 (side-effect %2)) [] (items-generator)) would work as well if the side-effect fn returns the parameter at the end
10:55	Cheiron	you are scaring me xD
10:56	semperos	the more you practice with reduce, the less scary it becomes :)
10:56	nDuff	Cheiron: We don't know the details of _why_ you want to do what you're asking about, either; without context, there's a good chance that all our suggestions are suboptimal.
10:56	ro_st	reduce is actually quite simple. you just have to write a couple
10:57	pjstadig	clgv: for that matter (into [] (map side-effect (items-generator)))
10:57	pjstadig	whenever you see (reduce conj ...) think (into ...)
10:58	Cheiron	i'm coding storm topology, i want to emit items one by one to another bolt, and then I want to emit the vector that contains the items to another bolt :)
10:58	pjstadig	or i do anyway
10:59	llasram	gtrak: Ah. I'm still on emacs 23. I was planning on switching now that there are official Debian emacs 24 packages...
10:59	gtrak	hmm
10:59	wingy	ro_st: lol
10:59	wingy	ro_st: i like Adobe's Illustrator though
10:59	nDuff	Cheiron: (let [your-seq (items-generator)] (map emit-item your-seq) (vec your-seq))
10:59	nDuff	...err, not that.
11:00	ro_st	wingy: um?
11:00	nDuff	needs a doall around the map
11:00	nDuff	otherwise it's lazy and doesn't get executed... but the point is that you don't even need a doseq.
11:00	wingy	ro_st: is it for your company?
11:00	pjstadig	and if you're using seqs for side-effects you might need to worry about chunking
11:00	wingy	Adobe is doing flex/air i guess
11:00	pjstadig	if items-generator generates a chunked seq it will be realized in chunks of 32 instead of one at a time
11:09	duck11231	is there a built in unchunker yet? I have a "lazier" function in my code, just wondering if I can replace it yet
11:11	duck11231	ro_st: cognician seems pretty neat. I'll have to play with it a bit more later
11:13	ro_st	hey cool. v1 sucks quite a bit, now, but the concept is there
11:14	ro_st	it's been in production for about 18months. i've been furiously working on V2 in google closure javascript, and wanting to hari-kiri myself all the way because of how painful it is
11:14	ro_st	thanks to clj+cljs, that bus has stopped :-)
11:17	ro_st	we were going to use rails on the backend but i just couldn't bring myself to do it. then clojurebook.com landed
11:17	duck11231	So were you doing it in Google Closure before you discovered Clojure, or did cljs influence that decision?
11:17	ro_st	the former
11:18	ro_st	because i wanted great js performance. C2 has to run on mobile and desktop
11:19	eduard	help, lein run results in this: http://pastie.org/private/bk8zpftlhz116vefoh2g9w
11:19	ro_st	the closure compiler produces seriously tiny js
11:19	eduard	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
11:21	wingy	what do you guys think about http://opalang.org/
11:23	wingy	it's quite impossible for hackers to get your frontend code once it has gone through advanced compilation with closure compiler?
11:24	ro_st	they can pretty print it and try to make sense of it
11:24	nDuff	wingy: It's about equivalent to any other kind of obfuscated decompilation process.
11:24	ro_st	but they'd probably have much better luck just re-coding it based on using the app
11:24	wingy	ro_st: yeah so i've thought
11:24	clgv	"opalang running on node.js" shivers
11:25	ro_st	let's be honest, the value isn't in the code, it's in the code + the ecosystem around it
11:25	wingy	ro_st: you are talking about opalang or the compilation?
11:25	ro_st	the compilation
11:26	wingy	ro_st: indeed
11:26	nDuff	ro_st: ${deity}, but it's hard to get management to realize that some times.
11:26	solussd	opinion solicitation: do authorization checks in a Noir webapp belong in the view or in the model? If in the model I'm planning on creating auth "contexts" using a dynamic var that the model can check for to filter results. thoughts?
11:27	ro_st	is that some sort of emoticon my client can't render? :-)
11:27	wingy	ro_st: im not worried about they will read the code and copy it .. but that they find some security flaws
11:27	wingy	and exploit them
11:27	nDuff	wingy: They can do that without reading the source.
11:27	ro_st	solussd: both, i should think. model to verify access and link user, view to control what's presented
11:27	duck11231	ro_st: your irc client is an atheist
11:28	ro_st	no wonder we get along so well
11:28	ro_st	-grin-
11:28	wingy	nDuff: analyzing the in and out data?
11:28	nDuff	nod
11:28	nDuff	Easiest place to attack are the entry/exit points. Trivial to modify HTTP requests on their way out and responses on their way in.
11:29	wingy	yeah
11:39	duck11231	So would source map support be bad for javascript security (through obscurity)
11:41	wingy	cljs is so nice
11:41	nDuff	duck1123: Indeed.
11:42	wingy	what is the best way to contribute to clj/cljs as a big company?
11:44	samaaron	is it possible to specify method param names whilst using gen-class or gen-interface using metadata?
11:44	nDuff	wingy: Getting your developers permission (and paperwork) to contribute upstream, at a minimum. Hiring Relevance for training/support/whatnot wouldn't hurt, either.
11:44	Cheiron	it is me again :) how to morph this naive code into idiomatic clj code? forgive my ignorance http://pastie.org/4330790
11:44	Cheiron	i'm still learning
11:45	wingy	nDuff: how is hiring Relevance helping clj?
11:45	nDuff	wingy: Look at who they employ.
11:45	nDuff	wingy: ...hint: http://clojure.com/about.html
11:46	wingy	cool
11:47	wingy	is Relevance behind datomic as well?
11:47	nDuff	nod
11:48	wingy	are you at Relevance?
11:48	nDuff	No.
11:48	wingy	Relevance is quite cool
11:49	duck11231	they seem like they would be an awesome company to work for
11:49	wingy	definitely hiring Relevance for expertise help when the time has come
11:53	llasram	Cheiron: What are you trying to achieve?
11:54	Cheiron	the code i posted is obviously a mapping from imperative style
11:54	clgv	Cheiron: you can do that shorter via `:let` within doseq
11:55	Cheiron	i want to code in idiomatic clojure functional way
11:55	clgv	Cheiron: your `let` doesnt do anything in its body?
11:56	Cheiron	it does but i didn't include it , i want to add new-col to a vector defined earlier
11:57	Cheiron	same issue we talked about earlier
11:57	Cheiron	but i noted there is a doseq with a doseq, obviously not a good code
12:01	jbarrios	hmm, given a list of keywords and a hash, what's the idiomatic way of checking that every keyword in the list is a key in the hash?
12:01	llasram	Cheiron: And like before, `doseq` just flat out won't let you build up a vector
12:01	llasram	Cheiron: In your example, which is the value you want to emit immediately, and which is what you're trying to build into a vector?
12:02	clgv	Cheiron: you could write it like that https://www.refheap.com/paste/3779
12:03	clgv	Cheiron: that still doesnt address returning the vector though. just rewriten your nested doseq with interleaved let
12:03	antoineB	hello, i would like a for like function that let me do println?
12:04	Cheiron	clgv: i will post what i'm trying to do.
12:05	duck11231	antoineB: doseq, unless you want the result, then doall+for
12:06	semperos	is there an idiom for using Clojure records with core.logic? when I do unification with them, I end up with "downgraded" Clojure maps instead of my original records
12:07	antoineB	duck11231: thanks
12:07	duck11231	doall will force a lazy seq and return it, dorun will just force the seq
12:08	duck11231	doseq is like dorun+for
12:08	semperos	jbarrios: (every? #(contains? your-hash %) list-o-keywords)
12:08	semperos	,(every? #(contains? {:foo "abc" :bar "def"} %) [:foo :bar])
12:08	clojurebot	true
12:08	semperos	,(every? #(contains? {:foo "abc"} %) [:foo :bar])
12:08	clojurebot	false
12:09	jbarrios	semperos: thanks :) I came up with something similar.
12:09	semperos	nice
12:09	jbarrios	semperos: but I had to rethink it because I need to report which keys are missing
12:09	semperos	reduce sounds good for that
12:10	duck11231	or validateur
12:11	Cheiron	clgv: kindly have a look http://pastie.org/4330899
12:11	pbostrom	jbarrios: you can also convert the list and keys to sets and use intersection and difference
12:16	clgv	Cheiron: couldnt do much with the `bolt` function: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3780
12:17	Cheiron	send-task send tasks one by one to a topic, send-tasks sends the vector of tasks to another topic
12:21	duck11231	Cheiron: how about this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/3781
12:22	Cheiron	clgv: duck11231: wow, both are neat!
12:23	clgv	duck11231: but send-task has to return the task then
12:23	clgv	you can skip the `doall` because of `(into [])`
12:24	duck11231	fine, then just add task at the end of the for loop
12:24	clgv	or that ^^
12:24	duck11231	clgv: right, he probably doesn't actually need it to be a vector anyway though
12:24	Cheiron	just one more thing (i'm sorry) . customize function has two parameters (defn customize [item object])
12:25	Cheiron	what to change in (mapcat #(->> % customize :sheets (map task-factory)) (:items object))
12:25	Cheiron	for customize function since it takes two paramters?
12:26	clgv	#(->> % customize :sheets (map (fn [i] (task-factory i, object))))
12:27	duck11231	(partial customize item) or (fn [item] (customize item object)) ;; since you can't nest #()
12:27	duck11231	is % item or object?
12:28	jweiss	will lpetit's suggestion actually work (to define your own print-method multimethod): https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/clojure/7yg07Fk3uuw
12:28	jweiss	seems to me that pprint will always dispatch to clojure.core/print-method no matter what else you add.
12:28	Cheiron	thank you all for the great help, i will try those right now
12:36	pandeiro	in lein-newnew is there a way to spit out a file without doing (render "foo.clj" data), for when the file is just being copied, not interpolated with data?
12:40	pandeiro	ah found it in the docstring for renderer, nice
12:50	SegFault1X\|work2	Good morning.
13:02	dnolen	emezeske: ping
13:12	emezeske	dnolen: pong
13:14	dnolen	emezeske: I made a ticket for the pr issue. It looks pretty simple - port over the approach from core_print.clj
13:14	dnolen	emezeske: no lazy seqs - loop / recur
13:15	emezeske	dnolen: ah, cool
13:15	emezeske	dnolen: I was looking at that a bit last night
13:15	ibdknox	dnolen: how'd your class go? :)
13:16	dnolen	ibdknox: it went well! light table works great - didn't really run into any issues.
13:16	emezeske	dnolen: I was kind of thinking that passing the StringBuffer down through the -pr-str calls would be the most efficient thing to do
13:16	ibdknox	dnolen: awesome :D
13:16	dnolen	emezeske: that's basically what core_print.clj does with the Writer.
13:17	emezeske	dnolen: cool, makes sense. I did a bit of profiling, and the concats seemed to dominate runtime
13:17	dnolen	emezeske: yep
13:18	dnolen	emezeske: serialization in CLJS should be blazing fast IMO. Ideally should not be so far away from JSON encode/decode
13:18	emezeske	dnolen: I agree -- one of the big bonuses for me, making a webapp, is easily shooting forms back and forth between the clj server and cljs client
13:19	emezeske	dnolen: Which has worked great for me so far, until a) I decided to support IE8 and b) my datastructure got a bit bigger
13:19	emezeske	dnolen: I'm pretty certain that the non-lazy StringBuffer approach will make things perfectly usable speed-wise
13:20	dnolen	emezeske: for sure.
13:20	dnolen	emezeske: if I get a patch I'll apply it quickly. I'm sure a lot of people are feeling the pain of this one. kovasb has mentioned it several times ;)
13:21	emezeske	dnolen: I might be able to work on that tonight
13:21	emezeske	dnolen: It seems like it really shouldn't be much work
13:23	emezeske	dnolen: I can't seem to find the "is it fast" page that had all the benchmarks. I wonder if pr-str is on there?
13:27	dnolen	emezeske: it is not, read-string is I believe. We should add pr-str benchmark.
13:34	clopamine	question: using eclipse+ccw(lein2): how to have "myjavalib.java " in the same leiningen-project as clj-files? I've tried something, but java classes don't compile. any help is appreciated?
13:42	clopamine	There has got to be a way to have one leiningen 2-project first compile all java-files and then doing the normal clojure-things, who can use those compiled java-classes... I just haven't found the instructions
13:44	hxiao	clopamine: java-source-paths in project.clj
13:45	hxiao	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5432163/java-and-clojure-with-leiningen
13:46	clopamine	hxiao: I tried to play a little with that, but it's not working for me... maybe some example would help
13:46	hxiao	I have a project where I have my java classes in the java directory
13:46	hxiao	so in my project.clj I have this line
13:46	hxiao	:java-source-paths ["java"]
13:47	clopamine	ok thanks... where do the class-files go?
13:48	hxiao	In target/classes
13:50	clopamine	you have package-directories under "java" or java-files straight at root?
13:50	hxiao	package directories
13:50	hxiao	just like a normal maven project
13:52	hxiao	the class files under target/classes will also show up with package directories
13:54	clopamine	hmm... build does nothing about that for me... I am using "leiningen"-project in eclipse+ccw ... do I need to set up some more lines in project.clj?
13:55	clopamine	Only classes I get are some clojure-generated in "classes"-dir
13:55	hxiao	which version of leiningen are you using
13:56	hxiao	and i'd try building on the command line too just to see what happens
13:57	clopamine	the version that comes with counterclockwise 2.0.0 I guess... however I don't have access to lein or lein2 in my shell (newly installed linux)
13:58	hxiao	hmm
13:59	clopamine	The command has to be somewhere, not just in my "bin"-path
14:00	hxiao	what do you mean? don't you just add the script to your path and self-install if necessary?
14:01	clopamine	That's what I did last time, yes. But this time I just installed ccw-plugin to eclipse and it "installed" leiningen
14:01	hxiao	huh ... and what does ccw do when you build it? lein install? uberjar?
14:02	clopamine	would not like to have to versions so my first option is to find the command and add symlink or something to my bin
14:02	clopamine	it complies clj files
14:03	clopamine	no uberjar, just ahead of time things I guess... project works fine without build
14:04	clopamine	but you may be right, and this eclipse only approach is not mature yet, and I better get my hands dirty with the command line version
14:07	clopamine	hxiao: anyway thanks for trying to help, appreciate it.
14:07	hxiao	np
14:07	hxiao	just doing lein compile won't work, so that's probably what's happening
14:08	clopamine	what is missing... some kind of "lein javac java-stuff?"
14:09	hxiao	yeah, lein javac
14:10	hxiao	actually, i thought lein compile did a lein javac as long as you had the source paths specified
14:10	hxiao	so i must be talking out of my rear end ... i never used ccw so it's hard for me to help
14:12	clopamine	heh, well it seems that ccw:s support for lein2 in "stable"-version is about on emonth old... they may have all kinds of bugs
14:15	cemerick	clopamine: I've been using it since the start; been solid as a rock.
14:15	cemerick	I'd actually recommend using the beta channel, as the code completion work that's been going in there lately has been stellar.
14:17	cemerick	But, it'll take years before any IDE or editor's Leiningen support will supplant using lein on the command line.
14:17	antares_	more likely leiningen itself will develop into a good IDE
14:17	clopamine	ok thanks, I just don't know how to do that, yet :) I really don't have any kind of feeling of mastery yet... I'll try to find the command and use it from command line (at least when it's needed)
14:19	cemerick	antares_: goodness, why?
14:20	antares_	cemerick: I am kidding, I am pretty sure lein is pretty feature complete by now :)
14:20	cemerick	whew ;-)
14:20	antares_	but it does take IDEs forever to develop and mature
14:22	jrheard	hi folks: clojure noob here, working through `clojure programming` and starting off with a few project euler problems.
14:22	jrheard	long story short: i want http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/math-api.html#clojure.contrib.math/abs , i see that clojure-contrib has been broken up
14:22	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/math-api.html#clojure.contrib.math/abs and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
14:22	jrheard	gladly!
14:22	antares_	stupid lazybot :)
14:23	jrheard	and so anyway i see it's moved to https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower
14:23	jrheard	and i cannot for the life of me figure out how to get that library and use it in my project.
14:23	antares_	jrheard: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
14:23	jrheard	sure
14:23	jrheard	that's how i found the numeric-tower link; but how do i tell leiningen what i want?
14:24	jrheard	i want to tell it: get me the numeric-tower library
14:24	jrheard	make it available to my code
14:24	jrheard	and my google-fu has failed me thus far in figuring out how the hell to do that
14:24	antares_	jrheard: you need to depend on org.clojure/math.numeric-tower
14:24	jrheard	sweet.
14:24	jrheard	was there any way i could have figured that out myself? some doc page i didn't find?
14:24	antares_	for clojure "contrib" it is org.clojure/[library name]
14:24	jrheard	also how do i know what version to tell it?
14:25	antares_	jrheard: for contribut specifically, you can just search search.maven.org
14:25	jrheard	<3
14:25	antares_	most of 3rd party libraries are on clojars.org
14:25	jrheard	that makes sense, i was wondering why clojars wasn't turning up any contrib stuff
14:25	jrheard	didn't know about the maven url
14:25	jrheard	ah i see it now
14:25	jrheard	http://search.maven.org/#search%7Cga%7C1%7Cnumeric-tower
14:25	antares_	finally, decent projects with documentation (like clojurewerkz.org) mention dependency lines in the getting started guide or something like that
14:25	jrheard	antares_: you are the best.
14:26	jrheard	thanks so much :)
14:26	antares_	jrheard: this is not the only repository where artifacts can be released. There is also oss.sonatype.org
14:26	antares_	jrheard: if you want something from sonatype, you need to add it to the :repositories list like so: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/project.clj#L53-58
14:27	jrheard	interesting
14:27	jrheard	once i do that lein search will also scan sonatype?
14:27	antares_	that's about it, it is very unlikely that any OSS Clojure libraries are released to a repo other than clojars, Maven Central or sonatype
14:27	jrheard	sweet
14:28	antares_	jrheard: supposedly, lein search needs some improvement (assuming you use lein2, which I'd highly recommend)
14:28	jrheard	i've got whatever `brew install lein` gave me
14:28	antares_	that's almost certainly 1.7
14:28	antares_	it's ok for now
14:28	jrheard	cool
14:28	antares_	or you can easily install lein2, see leiningen.org
14:28	jrheard	will do
14:29	antares_	just download 1 script, put it on PATH and run ./lein self-install
14:29	jrheard	rad
14:29	hxiao	lol i had no idea lazybot did that
14:29	hxiao	warned people about contrib
14:29	jrheard	http://richhickey.github.com/foo
14:29	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/foo and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
14:29	hxiao	haha
14:30	llasram	(inc lazybot)
14:30	lazybot	⇒ 7
14:30	clopamine	cemerick: I can't find the lein-command that ccw installed... do you have any idea in how much trouble will I be if I "script self-install" another copy of it in my ̃/bin ?
14:30	jrheard	seriously though +1 to "try to stop linking to rich's repo" - turns up on the top of google results every single time
14:30	jrheard	anyway thanks again antares_!
14:30	antares_	jrheard: you are welcome
14:31	cemerick	clopamine: The ccw lein support is self-contained; it doesn't install a `lein` script for use on the command line.
14:31	hxiao	clopamine: if you don't have lein available right now in your command line you should be in any type of trouble
14:31	hxiao	well there you go
14:31	hxiao	shouldn't*
14:32	clopamine	both: ok thanks. I will get the real deal then
14:35	clopamine	hey, before I do this workaround, should I report this kind of problem with ccw-lein somewhere?
14:36	clopamine	(problem meaning that it may be possible, but not out of the box, or easily findable)
14:38	antares_	clopamine: CCW or leiningen mailing lists are good candidates to report usability complaints
14:39	clopamine	antares_: ok will put a todo-task to figure out how to use those mailing lists
14:41	jrheard	antares_: one more question - https://gist.github.com/26b053138d8cd7945a30 has my project.clj and a small bash session; `lein repl` doesn't complain about the .clj file but it didn't seem to go out and grab the library, and i can't seem to :require it
14:41	jrheard	i could just write my own dang #'abs function but i'd love to figure out how to use libraries
14:42	antares_	jrheard: it is clojure.math.numeric-tower
14:43	antares_	I think all new contrib libraries use clojure.* namespaces
14:43	jrheard	hm, the :require line still blows up in the same way
14:43	jrheard	or did i get the project.clj line wrong?
14:43	antares_	jrheard: in the repl you need to use (require …)
14:43	antares_	the function
14:43	jrheard	blorg, same behavior
14:43	antares_	not the (ns …) macro arguments that use :keywords
14:43	jrheard	oh that makes sense though
14:43	jrheard	i was wondering about that distinction
14:44	antares_	(require '[clojure.math.numeric-tower :as math])
14:44	jrheard	okay, now we're getting somewhere - java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/math/numeric_tower__init.class or clojure/math/numeric_tower.clj on classpath: (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
14:44	jrheard	so quoting it suppressed evaluation so the require function got the actual symbol, i think i followed that
14:45	antares_	jrheard: lein should have downloaded dependencies, can it be that you had the repl open before you added the dependency?
14:45	antares_	you can always run lein deps on your own
14:45	jrheard	nope, i keep restarting it
14:45	jrheard	i'll try lein deps
14:46	jrheard	ah! it couldn't find my project.clj because i was running it from one directory away. fantastic! the require call works, everything is good, i'll stop bugging you :) thanks again!
14:46	antares_	any command should trigger dependency check first
14:47	ikg	komy +1
14:47	antares_	jrheard: by the way, feel free to bump clojure to 1.4.0
14:47	jrheard	will do
14:59	clopamine	hxiao: yep, one "lein javac" did the trick
14:59	hxiao	hooray
15:03	solussd	does anyone know if and what version Monger supports DBRefs ?
15:06	a\|i	which clojure web framework works well on appengine?
15:06	ro_st	a\|i: this talk might interest you http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-in-the-Clouds
15:09	a\|i	ro_st: thanks, what I want to know is, if there is any clojure web framework which actually supports appengine's datastore.
15:09	ro_st	https://github.com/smartrevolution/clj-gae-datastore
15:10	ro_st	web frameworks don't deal with databases
15:10	ro_st	they deal with http, routing, and templating, mostly
15:10	a\|i	ro_st: last commit: 11 months ago :(
15:11	ro_st	i suggest doing some reading
15:11	ro_st	you should be able to find something that works well
15:11	a\|i	thanks.
15:12	locojay1	hi how can i do a jquery $(this) with jayq when inside a delegated function. (js* "this") will not give me a jq selector
15:18	antares_	solussd: Monger partially supports dbrefs
15:18	antares_	solussd: it will load existing dbrefs and represent them in a way that you can @deref
15:18	antares_	but that's it
15:18	antares_	and as far as I know, DBRefs are not supported by all clients and are semi-deprecated
15:18	antares_	so we did not add any other support for them so far
15:18	pbostrom	locojay1: (this-as x (-> ($ x) (...)))
15:20	locojay1	thanks was thinking of using jQuery constructor on elem (js * "this")
15:20	acagle	Just upgraded nrepl.el to 0.1.2 and now nrepl-jack-in never returns the REPL. Are there any new requirements for using nrepl in Emacs? I can't find anything on the github site for nrepl.el
15:24	locojay1	pbostrom don't understand your code lets say i have (jq/delegate "#id tbody" "tr" :click (fn [] (<need to get tr element in jq form>))) i gess (js/jQquery (js * "this")) should do it
15:26	duck1123-work	locojay: there's a fn (macro?) called this-as that'll take a symbol that you bind "this" to. (this-as my-reference-to-this ...)
15:26	locojay1	ah thanks
15:27	pbostrom	locojay1: (jq/delegate ... :click (fn [] (this-as thing-clicked (-> ($ thing-clicked) (some-jq-function) (some-other-jq-fn))))
15:28	locojay1	pbostrom : thanks got it
15:30	gfredericks	duck1123-work: if it's used the way you showed it'd have to be a macro
15:31	duck1123-work	gfredericks: that's what I figured, but then again, js is funny sometimes
15:33	duck1123-work	Does clojurescript support the Closure annotations? I got some errors the other day when I tried to compile my cljs as advanced and the docs I found stated that I needed to mark my fn as a constructor
15:40	ro_st	dnolen told me that it doesn't
15:40	ro_st	back when i first asked
15:42	dnolen	ro_st: duck1123-work: patch welcome
15:43	ro_st	as a test, i stripped out all the jsdocs from my gclosure codebase
15:43	ro_st	the size difference between the two advanced mode js files was < 1%
15:43	dnolen	duck1123-work: not for annotations in general but something for the constructor case if this is a real issue.
15:44	duck1123-work	I'll have to see if I can make a reproducable test case when I get home.
15:46	gfredericks	&(nth (iterate list ()) 2000)
15:46	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
15:47	gfredericks	&(-> (iterate list ()) (nth 2000) flatten count)
15:47	lazybot	⇒ 0
15:52	gfredericks	(shuffle (range 100))
16:04	rainerschuster	how can i make this function automatically close the reader after the lazy-seq, which read-csv returns, is consumed?
16:04	rainerschuster	(defn load-csv [filename]
16:04	rainerschuster	(let [in-file (io/reader filename)]
16:04	rainerschuster	(csv/read-csv in-file :separator \tab)))
16:05	antares_	rainerschuster: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/with-open
16:06	rainerschuster	if i use with-open the reader is close imediately and I'm not able to do something usefull what is returned from load-csv
16:06	amalloy	rainerschuster: that's an immensely hard problem that clojure doesn't try to solve
16:07	amalloy	you need to do your processing of load-csv from inside the with-open block, rather than returning it outside
16:07	rainerschuster	but thats what i'm used to ...
16:07	rainerschuster	im interested in solving the problem from the outside
16:07	rainerschuster	i know how to do it in c#, python or f# ...
16:08	amalloy	it's easy enough to close the reader when the entire seq is consumed. but what if you do a (take 10) of the seq? then it never gets consumed, and never closed
16:08	rainerschuster	yes indeed!
16:08	rainerschuster	thats what the GC does for me in other languages
16:09	amalloy	so go do it in c# or python or f#, then. they're all just as wrong, if they pretend that you can rely on garbage collection to close resources for you
16:09	rainerschuster	:)
16:09	amalloy	see http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2010/08/09/10047586.aspx if you're interested in the philosophy of gc
16:10	rainerschuster	so your proposal is to fix data.csv to be able to take a filename and automatically creating and closing the reader?
16:11	rainerschuster	i do understand that i have to do it from the inside. i thought there is some macro trickery thats already done
16:12	antares_	rainerschuster: making data.csv support your case would be the best
16:18	emezeske	rainerschuster: In what language does the GC close resources such as files for you?
16:18	Wild_Cat	emezeske: in Python (CPython anyway) it does. I think it does in Java too, but I could be wrong,
16:18	emezeske	rainerschuster: I thought that doing that was generally a bad idea, as you don't know when the GC will collect, etc
16:19	emezeske	Wild_Cat: You should never rely on that though, right? What if you open tons of files, and the GC doesn't run?
16:19	rainerschuster	(emezeske): yes. and I was wrong. I've used the very same pattern in F# before http://fssnip.net/3T
16:19	Wild_Cat	emezeske: it's less an issue in Python because the GC is only a last-resort thing -- most of the time the refcounter closes the file the instant you lose the last reference to it.
16:19	Wild_Cat	it is however, bad practice to rely on that
16:20	Wild_Cat	the right way to use files in Python is "with open("foo") as my_file: # do stuff"
16:20	rainerschuster	in pyton I'm using with too, but there i've got generators i can use and yield
16:20	Wild_Cat	(the file is guaranteed to be closed when exiting the with block, even with an error)
16:20	alvin-x	When i'm dealing with tiny files (f.ex., loading a property file or .xsd from the classpath), I copy it to a byte array (ByteArrayInput/OutputStream) and close the original stream/reader asap.
16:20	emezeske	Yes, with is the right way in python
16:21	rainerschuster	so with-open is the right one in java.
16:21	emezeske	Right, but with laziness things are much more complicated, a la amalloy's notes
16:21	amalloy	emezeske: the same should be true of python's generators
16:21	rainerschuster	so i've to extend data.csv in order to support the case where I only want to specify the filename
16:22	emezeske	amalloy: Definitely
16:22	emezeske	amalloy: Leave the with block, while keeping a reference to a generator that has a reference to the open file, and boom
16:22	rainerschuster	read-lines from contrib is the right pattern
16:23	amalloy	no, read-lines is disastrous, which is why it didn't get promoted to clojure.java.io
16:23	amalloy	it has exactly the same problem with GC and resource handles
16:24	rainerschuster	so how can i create a function where I only serve in a filename and want to retun a lazy-seq?
16:24	rainerschuster	i don't
16:25	rainerschuster	i've to always be aware of the resources and how to read them
16:25	rainerschuster	so how can i abstract the knowledge ot the readersources away?
16:27	antoineB	i am wondering if it is possible with ring to send response when i want? (a response wich is not responding to a request)
16:27	amalloy	(defn read-safely [filename f] (with-open [r (reader filename)] (f (line-seq r)))) works if you don't allow f to be lazy. you have to force eager evaluation to happen inside the dynamic scope of with-open
16:27	dnolen	rainerschuster: open problem, http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Resource+Scopes
16:27	rainerschuster	so thats the point that anoys me
16:28	amalloy	unlucky, mate. sounds like clojure is reminding you that sloppily-written resource handling causes incorrect programs
16:28	emezeske	rainerschuster: How is it supposed to magically know that you are done with the lazy sequence?
16:29	Raynes	amalloy: Hurr hurr you said mate.
16:29	amalloy	/ignore Raynes
16:30	rainerschuster	I've allready realized what you suggested.
16:30	Raynes	You'd never.
16:32	rainerschuster	(dnolen): thx for the hint
16:34	duck1123-work	If I have a "provided" dependency, should uberjar skip that dep?
16:36	rainerschuster	so your suggestion is to a) eager consume the file or b) open the reader from toplevel with-open (like it's allready done)
16:37	rainerschuster	i'm fine with that solution. thx for advice
16:40	rainerschuster	in order to use data.csv on the repl i allways have to doall?
16:53	duck1123-work	gtrak: It tooks some time to get around to it, but I finally managed to use your code to inject a swank server into my tomcat instance. Thanks
16:54	gtrak	duck1123-work: nice
16:54	gtrak	I thought it was a closed-source app though, did you have to do anything special?
16:54	duck1123-work	No, I just set it up as a listener
16:54	gtrak	ah, cool
16:55	duck1123-work	of course, now I am able to reference the classes that are part of the application, but not the addon classes that I'm developing
17:07	semperos	dnolen: if I'm doing unification on Clojure records, what gets bound to the 'q' of my run* call is not my original records, but rather the "downgraded" Clojure map version of my records that unify; is there some idiom for doing unification against record instances?
17:11	gtrak	duck1123-work: yea, you could do some classloader tricks I suppose
17:11	dnolen	semperos: you need to implement unification for your defrecord
17:12	semperos	dnolen: alrighty; any examples lying around, or a good place in core.logic's source to see exactly what I need to implement?
17:12	dnolen	semperos: look at the core.logic wiki for the Datomic example - the example explains how to extend unification
17:12	semperos	dnolen: great, thank you :)
17:13	semperos	building an LP-based version of my clj-webdriver library for testing/exploration
17:13	dnolen	semperos: let me know if you run into issues, core.logic extends IPersistentMap, that may be ambiguous ... if so open a ticket and I can consider some solutions.
17:13	semperos	dnolen: I didn't know where to start, you've solved that
17:14	semperos	any issues I encounter are more likely my error/misunderstanding
17:15	dnolen	semperos: I mean just I'm not sure if concrete take precendence over interfaces when it comes to extend-type - I'm afraid you might get different results at different times because of this.
17:15	dnolen	concrete type I mean.
17:15	semperos	gotcha
17:16	dnolen	semperos: are you unifying records w/ records?
17:16	semperos	in the mean time, I've tweaked my own clj-webdriver API to deal gracefully with PersistenArrayMap's in addition to my custom defrecord, which may or may not be a good idea by itself
17:17	semperos	yes
17:17	semperos	I can give a simple example
17:20	semperos	dnolen: https://gist.github.com/3178729
17:20	semperos	there's a bunch of state that's not included in that gist, but the idea is hopefully clear
17:21	semperos	the "elements" returned by wd/find-elements are Element records
17:21	semperos	but in what gets bound to q, the "an-el" becomes a regular map, albeit with all the entries that Element records need to function properly
17:21	semperos	looks like that Datomic example is just what I need
17:22	semperos	the repo for this is here: https://github.com/semperos/webdriver-logic
17:24	dnolen	semperos: this look really cool
17:24	dnolen	looks
17:24	semperos	I'm really liking it :)
17:24	semperos	the last example on my README is the first step towards doing things you can't do with raw CSS/XPath queries, so I see lots of potential
17:25	semperos	but I'm still in LP preschool, learning-wise
17:26	dnolen	semperos: yes, this looks really awesome. Definitely excited to see where this goes!
17:26	semperos	dnolen: appreciate it, and thanks for the help
17:27	dnolen	semperos: planning on doing a big doc push soon - will probably start keeping track of really sweet practical projects like this.
17:27	semperos	sweet
17:28	semperos	encoding functional web tests using LP, esp. for apps with complex client-side state, permissions, workflows, etc., seems like a natural win
17:28	duck1123-work	so is webdriver logic good for testing, or do you see other things for it?
17:29	semperos	testing is one side of it, since clj-webdriver, like Selenium-WebDriver, has an eye towards web testing
17:29	semperos	but webdriver-logic isn't good for too much at the moment, as I only have a couple relations :)
17:29	duck1123-work	I currently use clj-webdriver from Cucumber. wondering if I should give this a try
17:30	semperos	you're welcome to check it out and contribute ideas/code, but I wouldn't try using it for too much
17:31	dnolen	semperos: sure, but a very neat approach, I'm assuming this actually addresses some pain points w/ the traditional approach?
17:31	semperos	it's in pre-pre-alpha
17:31	semperos	dnolen: I've frankly yet to see a "traditional" approach that doesn't break down into lots of manual testing
17:32	dnolen	semperos: hmm, I wonder if constraints could come into play here ...
17:32	semperos	I'm doing poor-man's constraints
17:32	duck1123-work	did the new webdriver update htmlunit? I've been getting an error lately. I saw the announcement, just haven't gotten around to testing
17:33	semperos	with pluggable XPath queries for the parts of my relations that provide "all elements" on the page, for example
17:33	semperos	also building out simple relations using Enlive to parse the page source, instead of relying solely on clj-webdriver, because querying the DOM via WebDriver can be dog-slow
17:33	semperos	using just Enlive for relations, when you don't want to then do something with the page elements that unify, is orders of magnitude faster
17:34	semperos	duck1123-work: I need to add htmlunit to my own set of tetsts
17:34	semperos	I actually only run each release against firefox and chrome, at this point, passing the browser compatibility buck upstream to a certain extent
17:34	semperos	clj-webdriver doesn't do anything that should break compatibility, I'll put it that way
17:34	craigbro	oh man
17:34	craigbro	running into compojure routing issuee
17:34	craigbro	I am url encoding paths as pat of the url
17:35	dnolen	semperos: I'm pretty deep in core.logic work so I probably can't take a deeper look any time soon - but feel free to ask questions anytime. Seems promising.
17:35	craigbro	/paths/%5CWINDOWS%5Cwhatever.exe
17:35	semperos	dnolen: I think deep in core.logic is where everyone wants you :)
17:35	semperos	but I'll ask if I hit major road blocks
17:36	craigbro	oh well, dinner and then debugging
17:36	semperos	duck1123-work: send a message on the Google Group or file an issue if HTMLUnit isn't working for you
17:36	semperos	gotta scoot, later folks
17:36	duck1123-work	yeah, let me get home and give it a try. if it's still hapening, I'll file something
17:54	solussd	technomancy: when I try to run anything with a freshly pulled down lein2 I get this stacktrace: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3790 have hunches?
17:58	mister_zombie	Hey, I have a quick question, what's the weapon of choice for scalable web services in Clojureland?
18:01	brehaut	well web services are typically built on top of ring et al, but you'll have to bring the scalability yourself. thats not a feature of a library
18:04	brehaut	depending on your service requirements though you might want to just build on compojure or you might want something more specific like bishop or clothesline
18:06	mister_zombie	I may be poking it up to several hundred million times a day and I need a really tight response time
18:06	TimMc	mister_zombie: I hope it clusters well.
18:06	brehaut	scalability is a feature of your application architecture, not of libraries, languages or frameworks
18:07	mister_zombie	I know, but some things may make my going easier or harder.
18:07	TimMc	Wait... ##(/ 1e8 24 60 60)
18:07	lazybot	⇒ 1157.4074074074074
18:07	TimMc	So you need millisecond average response time?
18:08	mister_zombie	Ideally.
18:08	mister_zombie	Quickest response time possible.
18:09	mister_zombie	I'm looking at clojure because as far as concurrency is concerned, there's gonna be tons of that, and it looks very helpful for that.
18:12	mister_zombie	And I'd like not to be caught in this http://www.kegel.com/c10k.html
18:13	craigbro	mister_zombie: I thinkin the end your show stoppers are gonna be with the java web servers
18:13	craigbro	mister_zombie: in terms of the bottom range of your latency
18:14	brehaut	mister_zombie: http://www.colinsteele.org/post/27929539434/60-000-growth-in-7-months-using-clojure-and-aws
18:14	craigbro	mister_zombie: as far as architecting the rest of the service to get cached data as close to the end user as possible, there are plenty of tools for that depending on your service
18:14	mister_zombie	I'm aware I won't go lower than several tens of millis, but that's fine
18:16	craigbro	brehaut: oh man, that URL makes me cringe 8)
18:17	craigbro	brehaut: not in what they did, but thinking about how I am going to shoehorn this dataset into something similiar
18:17	brehaut	craigbro: i blame tumblr :P
18:18	craigbro	brehaut: the baking the non-relational views is a fine approach IMO
18:19	craigbro	brehaut: I much prefer architecture driven by performance and understanding of what your real bottlenecks are VS. ideological notion of correct "architecture"
18:19	brehaut	yeah i dont see the point in building something according to some pie in the sky notion of what is 'fast'
18:20	brehaut	build it right, make it good, make it fast
18:20	brehaut	and dont expect magic from tools
18:20	craigbro	brehaut: and don't try and get it right until you have built it a few times 8^)
18:20	brehaut	ha
18:20	craigbro	brehaut: if one of your first couple tries works, good on you, but don't get too far ahead of yourself 8)
18:21	a\|i	how fast is clojure.xml comparing to other jvm xml paresers?
18:21	craigbro	aji: I use java xml parsers
18:22	craigbro	a\|i: oh, I thought you were garlic
18:22	mister_zombie	:P I'm not expecting magic, really, I understand that the most likely stuff to be slow is my own. I'm just also aware that there are some tools more fit to some things than others.
18:22	craigbro	mister_zombie: wasn't referring to you 8^) More like referring to my previous selfs 8^)
18:22	brehaut	ajl: clojure's xml libs are simple and convinient by they are not comprehensive. no NS support for instance
18:22	a\|i	craigbro: why java xml?
18:23	craigbro	a\|i: well, in my case, I needed to transform XML/HTML coming in one side, and going out the other
18:23	craigbro	a\|i: I used jsoup for that
18:24	mister_zombie	craigbro: Yeah, but I do feel like i've lived that in the past too XD
18:24	craigbro	a\|i: clojure is java, it's just picking the write java library for what you want to do. There are several out there, and the thing about jsoup I liked is that I could define transformations on an XML document, without having to build a gigantic in memory version of it
18:24	a\|i	craigbro: how about this https://gist.github.com/822769
18:24	craigbro	a\|i: I guess the point is, your questiond epends on what you want to to\|optimize for
18:25	craigbro	I don't know what a VTDNav is, or how you use it
18:25	a\|i	craigbro: I simply want to read xml, no write.
18:25	a\|i	craigbro: vtdxml seems to be the fastest xml pareser in java.
18:27	craigbro	a\|i: then use that I say
18:28	a\|i	craigbro: yeah, I was just wondering if the functional nature of clojure would make parsing xml even more efficient.
18:29	craigbro	a\|i: not in my experience
18:29	craigbro	a\|i: in fact, I found that enline, which is an HTML/XML transofrmation toolkit, paid a big price for immutability
18:29	craigbro	a\|i: why I moved to jsoup
18:30	a\|i	craigbro: is there a benchmark for that?
18:31	craigbro	a\|i: for what?
18:32	a\|i	craigbro: jsoup vs enline
18:32	craigbro	a\|i: all I know is that transforming a 40M document would kill my app's responsiveness and sometimes blow out the JVMs memory with enlive
18:32	craigbro	a\|i: and with jsoup it flies
18:32	craigbro	i can tell you why that happens tho
18:33	craigbro	a\|i: enlive reads a document into a data structure, transforms the structure and then spits it out
18:33	a\|i	is jsoup mutable-base?
18:33	craigbro	it's java
18:33	craigbro	so yes
18:34	Raynes	Sometimes mutable is good.
18:36	TimMc	~guards
18:36	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
18:37	Raynes	(.delete TimMc)
18:37	TimMc	blip
18:37	craigbro	I wasa purely functinal programmer myself, until I took a conj to the knee
18:37	craigbro	years of Common Lisp earned me the esteem of my coworkers, and the nickname Sir Cons Alot
18:39	craigbro	really, it's so sad that programming is hampered by ideological purity, as if we learned nothing from the last 200 years of philosophy
18:39	craigbro	even more ironic when you consider that cyberpunk was originally the "New Romantic" movement
18:40	craigbro	and the Romantics were a critique of the positivism and ideological blindering of the enlightenment
18:43	craigbro	a\|i: wow, VTD looks interesting. thanks
18:44	a\|i	craigbro: :)
18:44	duck1123	craigbro: when the guards in my game say that line, lightning strikes them down. (re: to the knee)
18:45	craigbro	a\|i: now, i only we could ensure in the JVM that that string representing the file was just mmap'ed
18:45	craigbro	aji: then we would have a real XML document handler 8)
18:45	a\|i	craigbro: cool.
18:46	craigbro	duck1123: I only have ps3 version, so no mods for me. 8^(
18:46	a\|i	I have to choose between scalaa and clojure, anyone wants to sell me clojure?
18:46	a\|i	scala*
18:46	duck1123	I run like 25 mods normally
18:46	craigbro	a\|i: for what?
18:47	a\|i	craigbro: a backend for a web app, mostly like a crawler.
18:48	craigbro	a\|i: insufficient data
18:50	a\|i	craigbro: it will do some statistical calculations on data grabbed from some external api.
18:52	craigbro	still seems a matter of tast eto me
18:52	craigbro	exploratory programming is easie rin clojure I think
18:52	craigbro	aka, not sure what you are gonna do with the information, or how to handle it
18:53	craigbro	or what algorithms to use
18:53	duck1123	clojure has incanter, which you'll probably like
18:53	a\|i	incanter?
18:54	duck1123	http://incanter.org/
18:54	duck1123	not something that I get into, but still cool
18:54	a\|i	wow nice, like R. is it as comprehensive?
18:57	a\|i	is there an equivalent of scala pattern matching in clojure?
18:57	duck1123	actually, now that I'm looking at this, maybe I can pitch it as a replacement for the beast we're currently using. (not total replacement)
18:58	duck1123	I don't know scala's pattern matching, but you can work wonders with multimethods and/or the matching and logic libraries, so... yes?
19:00	a\|i	well of course there is the problem of too many prents :)
19:02	duck1123	the cool thing with clojure, is you stop thinking about parens and you just think about nested lists of code, you concern yorself with the structure, and let the editor handle the parens
19:03	gert_	duck1123: which is why paredit is so awesome
19:04	a\|i	duck1123: I'm an absolute 'noob' in clojure, just watched that 10 part video on youtube, and didn't get any of it.
19:04	a\|i	which book is good for start?
19:05	duck1123	I haven't read all the books, but Programming Clojure is a good intro
19:05	duck1123	and then get Joy of Clojure to read when you "get it"
19:05	antares_	clojurebook.com is what I'd recommend
19:06	duck1123	I need to read that, I glanced at it earlier
19:07	a\|i	thanks.
19:07	brehaut	clojurebook.com and JoC are both good books. JoC is perhaps a 'faster'. it covers a lot in less pages and doesnt muck about in the basics
19:08	brehaut	clojurebook.com also has some great practical chapters
19:08	a\|i	is joc faster or more advanced?
19:08	Raynes	antares_: Is there a particular format you'd like my code review to be in? An email, comments in a pull request, etc
19:09	antares_	Raynes: a gist with ``` clojure code fragments is probably the best
19:10	Raynes	antares_: I don't do gists.
19:10	antares_	ugh, now that was stupid
19:10	Raynes	:P
19:10	antares_	Raynes: ok, a REFHEAP of any kind would work!
19:11	Raynes	I love doing that to people.
19:11	Raynes	Making them feel bad when they ask me to gist something.
19:11	antares_	haha
19:11	duck1123	pastebin then
19:11	gtrak	Raynes <- hold on to your request one sec.. USE THE APP I JUST MADE
19:11	amalloy	Raynes: you should add some special setup to your IRC client for that. like, silently replace gist with refheap, or alternatively sound a huge alarm bell everytime someone says gist
19:12	amalloy	i don't know exactly what behavior you'd make, but i'm sure you get the gist of it
19:12	antares_	clojurebot: gist
19:12	clojurebot	gist is https://refheap.com/
19:12	Raynes	Didn't you propose I make lazybot echo gist links with refheap links with the same content?
19:12	antares_	see, clojurebot is already corrupted :P
19:12	amalloy	haha, i probably did. that sounds like me
19:15	Raynes	antares_: My only reget is that refheap doesn't support markdown at the moment. :(
19:15	Raynes	It's on my todo list.
19:23	TimMc	amalloy: "get the refheap of it"? I'm not sure what that means.
19:25	rabidsnail	I have warn-on-reflection set to true, and my cpu time is dominated by clojure.lang.Reflector.getMethods, but I don't see any warnings.
19:25	rabidsnail	How is that possible?
19:27	brehaut	it only applies to the namespace its declared in
19:27	brehaut	i believe leiningen has a global flag you can set, though it will warn on all your dependancies reflection too
19:27	amalloy	brehaut: that's not a very accurate description, i think
19:28	antoineB	is there a function that take as argument a function and create an InputStream? (clojure.java.io/input-stream don't)
19:28	amalloy	if you (set! warn-on-reflection true) and never unset it, then it stays on for all the rest of the files it compiles after yours
19:28	antoineB	my idea was to make an infinite input stream generated by a function
19:29	rabidsnail	I was using the leiningen flag
19:29	rabidsnail	and I did get one warning at startup (from within leiningen)
19:30	rabidsnail	so at least it was working then
19:30	amalloy	rabidsnail: the warnings come only at compile time
19:30	amalloy	it doesn't print a warning every time you use reflection at runtime
19:30	rabidsnail	the warning was for NO_SOURCE_FILE
19:30	rabidsnail	I don' think that was my code
19:31	duck1123	If it did, those warnings would get fixed quickly
19:44	a\|i	is this job trends graph sane? http://thecodegeneral.wordpress.com/2012/03/04/the-big-three-jvm-languages/
19:44	a\|i	I thought groovy was dead.
19:45	antoineB	is it possible to add a local variable with proxy?
19:46	cemerick	a\|i: it's a bit old, but basically right. Clojure has been on a bit of tear lately. http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends/clojure%2Cscala%2Cgroovy.html
19:46	cemerick	Groovy is very healthy. Easily the #2 language on the JVM.
19:46	arkx	a\|i: Dead? Why? Isn't Groovy the easiest migration path for Java developers?
19:46	cemerick	(In terms of usage, of course.)
19:47	a\|i	there are only 35 people on #groovy right now!
19:47	gfredericks	is there an IRC plugin for eclipse?
19:48	arkx	Heh, don't confuse IRC participation with popularity.
19:48	antoineB	so maybe IRC participation correlate with fun or capacities ?
19:49	a\|i	well, it cannot be not related.
19:49	a\|i	maybe the groovy people are more of enterprise type?
19:49	a\|i	those people don't know what irc is.
19:50	antoineB	they are too serious for irc
19:52	antoineB	so anyone for my question, how can i store data from the context of a proxy function?
19:54	gfredericks	antoineB: so that it's accessible over repeated calls on the same object?
19:54	antoineB	yes
19:55	gfredericks	an atom in a closure should work, right?
19:55	gfredericks	(let [state (atom {})] (proxy ...))
19:55	antoineB	maybe
19:55	gfredericks	I think if you need state an atom is the default way to get it
19:58	antoineB	thank you
20:17	antoineB	i have implemented the code but i can't have access InputStream.read
20:18	antoineB	InputStream.read is an abstract method but i get an arity error
20:19	antoineB	(.read (input-stream-fn #(identity "abcd"))) => Error
20:19	antoineB	(.read (input-stream-fn #(identity "abcd")) (byte-array 1)) => ok
20:20	antoineB	so my question is: Is abstract function can be accessed? need i use type hint (and where) to help clojure to find the good method?
20:23	gfredericks	antoineB: did you include an explicit argument for `this`?
20:25	hiredman	antoineB: you are not defining your proxy correctly
20:25	antoineB	i do like that (read [_]
20:25	hiredman	I suggest you look at using a SequenceInputstream (check the docs for java.io) instead of whatever you are doing
20:26	antoineB	http://pastebin.com/v1gqd4xg
20:35	rbarraud	Afternoon, CLojurians and Kiwis :)
20:35	rbarraud	I bought the Fogus book last night - looking fwd to getting into it :)
20:36	antoineB	bye
20:41	brehaut	hi rbarraud
21:00	gert	kia ora, brehaut, rbarraud and other kiwis
21:01	brehaut	hi gert
21:05	a\|i	hmm?? https://gist.github.com/3036120
21:06	amalloy	always good for a chuckle
21:56	xumingmingv	clojure does not support empty protocol? In java you can define a empty interface like java.io.Serializable
23:27	gert	is there a way to add documentation to deftype declarations?
23:32	shinta42	http://pastebin.com/64dXwGyV can anyone help me fix this defrecord so it runs?