#clojure – 2012-07-17

2012-07-17

00:00	dsrguru	so lets walk through evaluating this
00:00	dsrguru	oh btw
00:00	dsrguru	you should set acc to 1
00:00	dsrguru	not 0
00:00	dsrguru	since 0! = 1
00:01	dsrguru	otherwise each time you multiply by n
00:01	dsrguru	you're still at 0 :)
00:01	dsrguru	so acc just means
00:01	iDesperadO	acc is accumulation of the current factorial..
00:01	dsrguru	this is the ultimate return value
00:01	dsrguru	but what we've accumulated so far
00:01	dsrguru	yes
00:01	dsrguru	so
00:01	iDesperadO	i get it
00:01	dsrguru	good
00:01	dsrguru	and trace it out
00:02	dsrguru	you'll see that (fact 2) -> (recur (dec 2) (* 2 1))
00:02	dsrguru	-> (recur 1 (* 2 1)) -> (recur 0 (* 1 (* 2 1)))
00:02	dsrguru	and now that (= n 0)
00:03	dsrguru	(recur 0 (* 1 (* 2 1))) just equals (* 1 (* 2 1))
00:03	iDesperadO	ok
00:03	dsrguru	which evaluates to 2
00:03	dsrguru	so to make something tail recursive
00:03	dsrguru	or the clojure equivalent at least
00:03	iDesperadO	(defn rrgcd [a b] (loop [a a b b] (if (= a 0) b (recur (rrgcd (rem b a) a)))))
00:03	dsrguru	what you want to do is have all the operations
00:03	dsrguru	that get you closer to the base case
00:03	dsrguru	take place inside the recursive call
00:03	dsrguru	not outside
00:04	dsrguru	i.e. (recur (bla...) (bla...)) not (bla (recur 2)...
00:04	dsrguru	if you look at a few examples online
00:04	iDesperadO	ah...
00:05	dsrguru	the pattern will be very clear
00:09	iDesperadO	(defn rrgcd [a b] (loop [a a b b] (if (= a 0) b (recur (rrgcd (rem b a) a)))))
00:09	iDesperadO	this definition is still not right
00:09	iDesperadO	Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 2 args, got: 1
00:10	dsrguru	check your parens
00:10	dsrguru	oh nvm
00:10	iDesperadO	i'm afraid the parens are right...
00:11	dsrguru	you don't also include rrgcd
00:11	dsrguru	it should be (defn rrgcd [a b] (loop [a a b b] (if (= a 0) b (recur (rem b a) a))))
00:11	iDesperadO	?
00:11	iDesperadO	why there's no rrgcd there?
00:11	dsrguru	loop and recur work together
00:11	dsrguru	loop isn't just a let statement
00:11	dsrguru	it also sets the boundary of a new function
00:12	dsrguru	that can be recursively called
00:12	dsrguru	with TCO
00:12	dsrguru	(tail call optimization)
00:12	dsrguru	when you call recur
00:12	dsrguru	so recur says
00:12	dsrguru	call the function I just defined by loop
00:12	dsrguru	and in your case
00:12	dsrguru	it happens to have the same parameters as the outer function rrgcd
00:13	dsrguru	but that's unusual
00:13	dsrguru	that's why I showed you the factorial case first
00:13	dsrguru	where it was clear
00:13	dsrguru	that the loop expression was autonymous
00:13	dsrguru	so in this case (loop [a a b b] (if (= a 0) b (recur (rem b a) a)))
00:13	iDesperadO	so (loop [a a b b] ...) is a function?
00:13	dsrguru	defines an anonymous function
00:13	dsrguru	yes
00:13	dsrguru	exactly
00:13	dsrguru	except
00:14	dsrguru	it doesn't define it
00:14	dsrguru	it calls it in place
00:14	dsrguru	it's like ((fn [a b] ...) a b)
00:14	iDesperadO	ah
00:14	dsrguru	sorry I should have explained that at the beginning!
00:15	iDesperadO	if the loop part is an anonymous function then this function body is just [a a b b] ???
00:15	lazybot	iDesperadO: Oh, absolutely.
00:15	dsrguru	do triple question marks trigger lazybot ???
00:15	lazybot	dsrguru: Oh, absolutely.
00:16	iDesperadO	oh
00:16	iDesperadO	so..?
00:16	dsrguru	sorry had to test that
00:16	dsrguru	I'm not sure I get your question
00:16	dsrguru	let me give you two examples
00:17	dsrguru	one with loop/recur
00:17	dsrguru	one with a named fn
00:17	dsrguru	so you can see how they map up
00:17	iDesperadO	if the loop is a anonymous function, then it must have a function body, which i guess is [a a b b]
00:17	dsrguru	although remember that loop/recur will run faster
00:17	dsrguru	or at least conserve space in the call stack
00:17	dsrguru	btw a named fn is the same as a regular anonymous fn except it temporarily has a name for purposes of recursion
00:17	dsrguru	so:
00:18	dsrguru	(fn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd (rem b a) a)))
00:18	dsrguru	is the same as:
00:18	dsrguru	wait
00:19	dsrguru	((fn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd (rem b a) a))) 3 4)
00:19	dsrguru	is the same as:
00:19	dsrguru	(loop [a 3 b 4] (if (= a 0) b (recur (rem b a) a)))
00:19	dsrguru	except for efficiency
00:19	iDesperadO	ah
00:19	dsrguru	does that help?
00:20	wingy	finally
00:20	wingy	cljs worked!
00:20	iDesperadO	helps a lot !
00:20	wingy	https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild was really great
00:20	wingy	much better than clojurescriptone if you wanna get started
00:21	iDesperadO	loop defines a function, binds the parameters and then call the function...
00:21	dsrguru	iDesperadO: or at least I'm assuming that's true because that's how the equivalent works in Scheme!
00:21	dsrguru	yes
00:21	dsrguru	and it does one more thing
00:22	iDesperadO	for recur to rebind the parameters
00:22	dsrguru	yes
00:22	iDesperadO	thanks, dsrguru, you are sooooooooooo helpful
00:24	dsrguru	iDesperadO: np I've been pestering the good people on this channel enough in the last couple days as I too am starting to use clojure, so I'm only happy to help
00:26	iDesperadO	i'm a c++ programming by profession, but now I'm amazed by clojure...
00:26	iDesperadO	programmer
00:27	iDesperadO	a clojure's function can do so much more than a c++'s class...haha~~~
00:28	dsrguru	haha yup LISPs are so expressive
00:47	wingy	iDesperadO: lisp is the best thing after sliced bread
00:48	iDesperadO	wingy: hahahahaha...
00:48	wingy	one thing bad though is the jvm startup time in lein
00:48	wingy	i wish they can move to node.js instead for lein .. isn't cljs designed for running cli tools
00:48	wingy	technomancy: ^ :)
00:52	yonatane	Hi wingy, do you ever sleep? ;)
00:52	wingy	yonatane: couldn't sleep since i couldn't get cljs working
00:52	wingy	but now its fixed
00:52	wingy	so now i have to play with it some more before i sleep
00:53	wingy	yonatane: have you been stalking me?
00:53	ivan	technomancy might think about it after you port 20MB of Java to CLJS
00:54	wingy	ivan: :/
00:55	wingy	it's using a lot of java libs?
00:55	ivan	take a look inside leiningen's jar
00:55	ivan	it's got all that maven stuff
00:55	wkelly	and ant stuff
00:56	wingy	plan b … let's just kill the startup time
02:42	iDesperadO	hi, `lein search` always returns with exception with clj-http: status-404
02:42	iDesperadO	I use a vpn to get access to the repo
03:00	wingy	how do i add a css file in hiccup?
03:01	wingy	the api doesnt mention css files http://weavejester.github.com/hiccup/hiccup.element.html
03:03	wingy	oh: http://weavejester.github.com/hiccup/hiccup.page.html
03:08	ro_st	what do you think of hiccup so far, wingy?
03:11	akhudek	I greatly prefer enlive
03:11	ro_st	they do different things, don't they? enlive is more for parsing/scraping?
03:11	akhudek	ro_st: not really, enlive is great for templating
03:12	ro_st	i'm planning on using enlive/enfocus with a common set of templates
03:12	akhudek	the big deal with enlive is that a designer can give you pure html and you don't need to modify it directly
03:12	ro_st	allow the server to render pages, but also allow the client to re-render them or parts of them
03:12	akhudek	that's a good idea
03:12	akhudek	was thinking of something similar myself
03:13	akhudek	we use a lot of enlive at my work
03:13	ro_st	part of my app is a store, i'm planning to do what the new basecamp does
03:13	ro_st	with pjax
03:13	ro_st	where it only loads the 'center' on page nav
03:14	ro_st	makes it really fast
03:14	akhudek	I'm not very familiar with basecamp sadly, but enlive on both server + ajax client seems pretty natural
03:14	ro_st	what i like about the enlive/enfocus strategy is i don't need to decide where things get rendered
03:14	ro_st	and i can change my mind easily once i do
03:14	akhudek	I've found cljs to be very undocumented this point overall
03:14	ro_st	makes things a lot more manageable
03:14	ro_st	yeah
03:15	ro_st	cljsbuild's crossover feature is great
03:15	akhudek	there are a number of places where I could also see cljs and clj sharing code directly
03:16	ro_st	i'm doing all my 'model' code in clj and testing with midje and midje-mode
03:16	akhudek	enfocuse/enlive templates and snippets, and also validation/state control code
03:16	ro_st	and it's auto compiling all those ns's to js as well
03:16	akhudek	huh, so you do share code between client and server?
03:16	ro_st	so hopefully i'll only need to actually develop the glue and service layer code in cljs directly
03:17	ro_st	i'll be able to build all my templates in the repl with enlive
03:17	ro_st	yes
03:17	ro_st	it's very easy to configure
03:17	akhudek	nice, I was hoping that it was possible. Our project hasn't incorporated any cljs yet, but I've been starting to look into it
03:18	ro_st	i'm re-doing a google closure javascript codebase as cljs
03:18	ro_st	i'm coming out at less than a 1/6th of the code, including tests :-)
03:18	akhudek	our client code is jquery, which makes it a bit more painful to move over… maybe
03:19	ro_st	my advantage is that i'm already familiar with the closure compiler and library
03:19	ro_st	our CI et al already has all that set up
03:20	akhudek	nice, that seems like it would make it a bit easier
03:20	ro_st	definitely
03:20	akhudek	do you know if closure provides multiple file upload in IE8?
03:20	ro_st	i don't, sorry
03:21	akhudek	darn, no worries. IE8 is very annoying.
03:21	ro_st	indeed
03:21	ro_st	unfortunately it accounts for close to a third of our userbase
03:21	ro_st	thankfully ie6/7 are less than 1% combined
03:21	akhudek	same or worse here :-(
03:22	akhudek	we don't support 6/7
03:22	akhudek	although I think 7 still mostly works last I checked
03:24	ro_st	what's the simplest way to find the index of an item in a set?
03:24	akhudek	set's have no numerical index
03:24	akhudek	or any index really
03:24	akhudek	they compare on the items they contain directly
03:25	ro_st	oh, my mistake. index of an item in a vector
03:25	ro_st	in this case, i know for sure the vector only contains one copy of each item in it
03:26	malcolmsparks	(just a test)
03:26	akhudek	I can't think of any easy way outside of combining map and some
03:27	ro_st	i'm using seq-utils' positions fn now
03:27	ro_st	but i'm using it in a crossover (clj + cljs) ns. so i guess i'll have to yank it out into a util.clj in my own crossover folder
03:29	akhudek	isn't seq-utils deprecated?
03:30	akhudek	easiest direct way I can see right now is
03:30	akhudek	,(let [items (map vector (iterate inc 0) [:a :b :c :d])] (some (fn [[i v]] (if (= v :c) i)) items))
03:30	clojurebot	2
03:30	akhudek	could make it into a function easily enough
03:31	akhudek	or just copy the seq-util function if it works for you
03:31	ro_st	i guess it takes that much code because of the lazy nature?
03:31	ro_st	yeah i copied it
03:31	ro_st	it's not much: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3638
03:32	hiredman	,(doc keep-indexed)
03:32	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
03:32	amalloy	you want ##(doc keep-indexed), but really if your code needs the index of something you're usually doing something wrong
03:32	lazybot	⇒ ------------------------- clojure.core/keep-indexed ([f coll]) Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f index item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects. nil
03:33	ro_st	well, i have a ref to a unique element, and i want to get the very next element in the vector after this element i have a reference to
03:33	ro_st	and so i'm using positions to get the index of the element i have, adding 1, and checking bounds, and if that passes, fetching it out
03:34	ro_st	good ole imperative style. i'm very keen to use a better method if one exists
03:34	ro_st	i can't modify the source vector, though. i can pre-process it to make it a sorted-set or something if that's more appropriate
03:34	akhudek	how many elements are in this vector?
03:35	ro_st	tens at most
03:35	akhudek	unless you have millions of queries per second, I wouldn't worry too much about performance here
03:35	ro_st	another constraint: this code runs in cljs primarily
03:36	ro_st	oh, indeed. showing intent in the code clearly is my main concern
03:36	akhudek	drop-while + fnext
03:37	akhudek	use let-if or similar if you want to check the case where there is no next
03:37	ro_st	um, so say i have a ref to :c, and a vector, [:a :b :c :d]. using :c, i want to get :d. how would i use drop-while in this case?
03:38	ro_st	edge cases are that a nil ref should fetch back :a, and a :d ref should fetch back nil. those are easy once the main case is working, of course
03:38	akhudek	,(fnext (drop-while #(not= :c %) [:a :b :c :d]))
03:38	clojurebot	:d
03:39	hiredman	ro_st: keep :c and :c's index in the ref, and then just inc :c's index
03:39	ro_st	oh right. drop-while finds the ref, and fnext grabs the next one
03:39	akhudek	,(fnext (drop-while #(not= :c %) [:a :b :c]))
03:39	clojurebot	nil
03:39	ro_st	that's very elegant, akhudek!
03:40	akhudek	if you need to check that no :d exists, just do if-let
03:40	ro_st	hiredman: that has the problem of me needing to determine the index, which i've been told is Naughty :-)
03:40	hiredman	ro_st: how do you not know the index? do you not start at 0?
03:42	akhudek	I'm off to sleep, night ro_st
03:42	ro_st	the fn returns the element, which is then kept elsewhere. the next time the fn is used, i pass in the previously returned element
03:42	ro_st	sleep well
03:43	ro_st	so using index is adding complexity. akhudek's drop-while + fnext solution works a charm
03:43	hiredman	ro_st: if you need the index, why not pass it around?
03:43	ro_st	i don't need the index :-) i need the element
03:43	ro_st	i was using the index before because that's how my n00b imperative brain said i should do it
03:44	hiredman	so why are you using a vector?
03:44	ro_st	that's how it comes off the wire
03:44	ro_st	deserialised json
03:45	hiredman	there is nothing imperative about indexed access
03:47	ro_st	ok :-) as i mentioned before, i was a) finding the index of the element i had b) incrementing it c) testing that value against the length of the vector d) if in bounds, returning vector[next-index] e) or if not, nil
03:47	ro_st	that's imperative-y
03:47	hiredman	it is not
03:47	ro_st	oh
03:47	wingy	ro_st: hiccup is nice
03:47	ro_st	-writes that down-
03:48	ro_st	-grin-
03:48	wingy	are you using enlive?
03:48	ro_st	i plan to, yes
03:48	ro_st	haven't gotten there yet
03:48	wingy	hmm .. im going to use bootstrap
03:49	ro_st	wingy: http://lightglitch.github.com/bootstrap-xtra/
03:49	wingy	and thinking that writing HTML directly is more compatible with bootstrap
03:49	wingy	wow
03:49	ro_st	some nice stuff in this one
03:50	wingy	ro_st: is it maintained?
03:50	wingy	8 months from last activity
03:50	ro_st	doesn't look like it :-(
03:51	wingy	such projects are risky
03:51	ro_st	agreed
03:52	ro_st	,(if nil 1 2)
03:52	clojurebot	2
03:53	wingy	anyway .. i thought i im using enlive/enfocus i can do separate logic with template in HTML and that would be better when using Bootstrap
03:53	ro_st	weird. i had (if var-name (stuff) (things)) where var-name is nil and (stuff) got called
03:53	ro_st	switching to (if-not (nil? var-name) (…)) worked
03:53	ro_st	bootstrap is predominantly css and js, isn't it?
03:55	wingy	havent used it yet but yeah its heavy in css
03:55	ro_st	wingy, check kibit out
03:55	wingy	and using jquery for animations
03:57	wingy	https://github.com/jonase/kibit/
03:57	ro_st	yup
03:57	wingy	what about it?
03:57	ro_st	it analyzes your code and tells you where you can simplify things
03:57	wingy	i see
03:57	wingy	cool
03:57	wingy	does it work?
03:58	ro_st	eg, instead of (map #(:id %) […]), it'll tell you to use (map :id […])
03:58	wingy	cool
03:58	ro_st	or (= (:id foo) =) -> (zero? (:id foo))
03:58	ro_st	stuff like that
03:58	ro_st	sorry
03:58	wingy	neat
03:58	ro_st	(= (:id foo) 0) -> (zero? (:id foo))
04:02	wingy	ro_st: (when (System/getenv "PORT") (Integer. (System/getenv "PORT"))) instead of: (if (System/getenv "PORT") (Integer. (System/getenv "PORT")) nil)
04:02	wingy	so cool :)
04:02	wingy	i have to play with core.logic myself when everything is setup
04:03	ro_st	did you watch edmund jackson's intro to core.logic?
04:03	ro_st	search vimeo for clojure and sort by date. bottom of page 1
04:04	ro_st	really cool talk
04:04	wingy	the guy who talked really fast?
04:04	wingy	and something asked him to slow down at the beginning?
04:04	ro_st	that's the one
04:04	ro_st	with the south african accent
04:04	wingy	yeah ive seen it
04:05	wingy	clojure.core seems to allow us to code in a different way
04:05	wingy	in a very declarative way
04:05	ro_st	it's very interesting. definitely an area i want to play around in
04:05	wingy	yeah i hope i can use it heavily in my app
04:05	malcolmsparks	it was funny because there were a lot of europeans in the room who were really struggling with the speed of English
04:06	malcolmsparks	one German guy stood up and put both hands up pleading with the speaker to slow down :)
04:06	wingy	OTOH he talked really fast :)
04:06	ro_st	they can watch it on vimeo now and slow it down
04:06	wingy	malcolmsparks: you were there?
04:06	malcolmsparks	but it was a superb talk - hopefully someone can make a transcript one day
04:06	malcolmsparks	yes
04:06	wingy	cool
04:06	ro_st	i kept up ok, but that's because i'm used to that accent. my own is quite similar to his
04:06	wingy	malcolmsparks: how many people were there?
04:07	malcolmsparks	you don't see the baffled audience from the video :)
04:07	malcolmsparks	almost 200
04:08	ro_st	i would love to have been there
04:09	ro_st	i can count the number of clojure folks in cape town that i know of on one hand!
04:09	malcolmsparks	anyone know of a Midje talk? I'm really enjoying it - only just starting playing with it - it's very cool
04:09	wingy	http://www.hackerne.ws/item?id=2683007 read ynniv's post
04:09	ro_st	have you seen marick's vids, malcolmsparks?
04:09	malcolmsparks	no - guess I should have googled before chatting
04:09	malcolmsparks	I'll look them up tonight
04:10	ro_st	are you using emacs, malcolmsparks?
04:10	malcolmsparks	never really used midje before, didn't realise how powerful it was
04:10	clgv	malcolmsparks: the midje wiki is quite good in explaining
04:10	ro_st	it ROCKS. i'm doing TDD with it
04:10	malcolmsparks	ah, train in - gotta go
04:17	wingy	wow .. bootstrap is really simple to use
04:17	wingy	always used big frameworks like extjs/sproutcore to make good looking buttons and now it's just a html class i need to add :)
04:17	wingy	towards simplicity like clj!
04:20	clgv	bootstrap?
04:20	wingy	twitter bootstrap
04:21	wingy	http://twitter.github.com/bootstrap/components.html
04:21	clgv	ah ok. read that before
04:22	wingy	do you guys feel that html should be html and not in clj like hiccup is doing?
04:23	ro_st	long term, i think it's good to keep the markup separate from the logic
04:23	wingy	yeah
04:24	ro_st	hiccup is fun, but to be able to do pure css work on that markup, you need a running ring server and a knowledge of clojure sufficient to do hiccup changes to be able to complete work
04:25	wingy	good analysis
04:25	ro_st	lots of designers use (barf) dreamweaver or similar to accomplish tasks like that. it's nice to be able to keep that ability
04:26	wingy	ro_st: OTOH is it really desired to have pure designers doing HTML?
04:26	wingy	isn't it something a clojure dev can do
04:26	wingy	he knows the logic and display
04:26	ro_st	do you want to pay a clojure dev to do something a markup monkey can?
04:26	ro_st	no disrespect to markup monkeys -grin-
04:27	ro_st	what do you gain by using hiccup over raw html and enlive?
04:27	wingy	since im doing the markup atm i get joy :)
04:27	ro_st	is that gain worth losing the flexibility of pure html throughout your dev lifecycle?
04:27	wingy	i guess not
04:28	wingy	yeah
04:28	ro_st	the thing about code is you want as little of it as possible
04:28	ro_st	hiccup is code, it's not markup
04:28	wingy	right
04:28	ro_st	that's what makes enlive great. your code is just a set of transformations, which is much easier to test
04:29	wingy	and being able to use pure HTML is kinda neat
04:29	wingy	you know what is going on
04:30	ro_st	also, pure html/css is much easier to work with in chrome
04:30	ro_st	you can even use chrome dev tools' save-file features
04:30	wingy	but then you could say that about js vs cljs :)
04:31	ro_st	chrome dev tools get thoroughly spanked by emacs+repl
04:31	ro_st	when it comes to logic stuff
04:31	ro_st	thats just my opinion, of course :-)
04:32	ro_st	but it's one formed from experience of both worlds
04:33	ro_st	i wonder if cljs supports source maps
04:33	wingy	yeah i also think that writing pure html is better for long term maintenance
04:33	ro_st	chrome dev tools has excellent support for it. shows you your source language (ie, cljs) right there in the scripts panel
04:33	clgv	ro_st: they are working on source maps as far as I heard
04:34	wingy	when will that be ready you think?
04:34	ro_st	no clue
04:35	wingy	ok new policy
04:35	wingy	"close to the metal"
04:35	ro_st	yes
04:36	wingy	html, css, cljs but using js libs without transformations, clj using java libs without tranformations
04:36	wingy	;)
04:37	ro_st	do you use a css pre-processor?
04:38	wingy	no .. im not that great in styling
04:38	wingy	bootstrap is using less
04:38	wingy	but i dont think i will have to style that much
04:38	wingy	https://wrapbootstrap.com/
04:39	ro_st	oh wow, nice resource
04:39	wingy	http://bootswatch.com/
04:39	wingy	i feel this is way better than styling manually
04:39	wingy	we use bootstrap .. and everyone can provide styling template
04:40	wingy	they could open a new market
04:41	ro_st	both great resources. bootswatch is realy nice
04:41	wingy	ro_st: now i recall what rich hickey said about complecting
04:42	wingy	perhaps having logic and presentation in one is complecting things
04:42	wingy	just like you dont want to have logic and data as one like in OOP
04:42	ro_st	yes, exactly
04:44	ro_st	ohpauleez did something interesting in his demo-shoreleave-findit project
04:45	ro_st	he uses erb (from ruby) and rake to pre-compile static html pages, using layouts and partials
04:45	ro_st	then cljs uses enfocus to munge that markup clientside
04:45	ro_st	he could just as easily have used enlive to do the partials work, actually
04:53	pyr	morning
04:54	pyr	can members be removed from a clojars group ?
04:54	pyr	(from clojars i mean)
05:00	clgv	pyr: I only see an "add member" button over there
05:02	pyr	clgv: yup, me too
05:05	kral	namaste
05:08	ro_st	tashi delek!
05:34	augustl	are there any solutions to have "lein test" keep a JVM running and automatically reload changed files, for faster test runs?
05:37	ro_st	lazytest
05:37	twhume	I'm having a bit of NotFun with futures. Could anyone explain to me why this code seems to run correctly, but then drives CPU usage for the Java process to 90%+, and stays there forever? I think the future I create is being terminated correctly, but it appears not… https://gist.github.com/3124000
05:37	ro_st	are you using clojure.test or midje, augustl?
05:38	augustl	ro_st: clojure.test
05:39	augustl	mostly because of use-fixtures with :once, haven't found an equivalent for midje
05:39	ro_st	i'm using lein-midje with lazytest, which auto-runs when tests or the files the tests load change
05:39	ro_st	midje has the background macro
05:41	ro_st	https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Setup%2C-Teardown%2C-and-State
05:42	ro_st	for example: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3639
05:42	ro_st	this runs all the facts inside the binding, so that the production code being tested uses the test database instead of the production one
05:43	ro_st	and it only loads the fixtures once
05:43	ro_st	you can use :facts instead of :contents if you want the work to be performed per fact
05:43	augustl	a fact is a test?
05:43	ro_st	yes
05:44	augustl	and :contents is one test namespace?
05:44	augustl	or the entire run?
05:44	ro_st	one test namespace
05:44	augustl	is there a way to run some code before and after the entire test suite?
05:44	ro_st	as with everything in clojure, it's all namespace bound
05:44	augustl	currently integration testing a SSO system so I would like to boot 3 jetty servers. Currently doing that for each test namespace, so it's kind of slow
05:45	ro_st	you could probably use a separate namepsace and memoize the calls
05:45	augustl	good point
05:45	ro_st	so first calls do the work, subsequent calls just return whatever work was done the first time
05:45	ro_st	if you use emacs, there's midje-mode too
05:46	augustl	what does it do?
05:46	ro_st	run individual facts right there in your buffer
05:46	ro_st	it pastes the output as comments above the fact
05:46	ro_st	it uses your active repl
05:46	augustl	ah
05:46	ro_st	the way i work is to have lein2 midje —lazytest running in a shell, and then code tdd style in emacs, using C-c . to run individual facts as i go
05:47	ro_st	lazytest helps with regression testing when i refactor stuff
05:47	augustl	typically memoization is done via function calls I suppose?
05:47	augustl	which checks a ref for nil etc
05:47	ro_st	yup. i've not done memoization with clojure before, but the concept is pretty simple
05:48	augustl	perhaps there's something built-in
05:48	ro_st	http://blog.fogus.me/2012/07/13/announcing-core-memoize-version-0-5-2/
05:48	ro_st	reading the tests for this code should give you a thorough background on the topic
05:53	ro_st	so i have a .clj with plain clojure data in it. how do i read it off disk and assign that map into a ns-bound var?
05:54	ro_st	right now the file has (def name {…}) in it, and i'm using load-file
05:56	vijaykiran	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/leiningen-core/src/leiningen/core/user.clj#L25
05:56	vijaykiran	ro_st: something like that ^ ?
05:56	ro_st	superduper!
05:57	vijaykiran	leiningen loads user.clj profile, I guess that's something similar to what you are looking for
05:57	ro_st	it's precisely what i'm after, thanks very much
05:57	vijaykiran	yw
05:59	augustl	ro_st: I see, thanks
06:02	ro_st	heck i should really make a screencast showing all this working together
06:08	twhume	Anyone know why this code should lead to high CPU usage? (deref (future (loop[a 1] (recur a)) :done!) 1000 :impatient!)
06:11	cshell	infinite llop?
06:11	cshell	infinite loop?
06:11	ro_st	the loop recur is infinite
06:11	ro_st	recur should be wrapped inside a conditional that checks whether recur should happen or not
06:12	cshell	it needs to increment the a value
06:12	cshell	or do something with it
06:13	ro_st	'(loop [a 1] (if (< a 3) (recur (inc a)) a))
06:13	ro_st	,(loop [a 1] (if (< a 3) (recur (inc a)) a))
06:13	clojurebot	3
06:17	augustl	it would seem that irccloud.com just died :)
06:17	cshell	yep
06:17	twhume	shell, ro_st: yes, it's an infinite loop (it's not the actual code I want to run, but the actual code may or may not contain such a loop - hence the need for a timeout). But surely it should stop running once the future is cancelled whatever?
06:17	twhume	s/shell/cshell/
06:17	ro_st	i just got a pingdom alert for my vps as well
06:18	twhume	In practice I'm going to want to run short sequences of arbitrary bytecode inside this future, some of which may contain such loops. I've stuck a recur in there so I can be testing with the worst possible case...
06:20	ro_st	right
06:20	ro_st	i've no experience with futures, i'm afraid
06:24	augustl	ro_st: are you using lein 1.x and lein-midje?
06:24	augustl	seems I need lein-midje both as a plugin and dev-dependency
06:25	augustl	also, is there a way to run midje tests with "lein test", or make "lein test" throw errors?
06:26	Fossi	they will be run
06:26	Fossi	don't know what you mean with "errors"
06:26	Fossi	like a negativ return code?
06:27	ro_st	i'm using lein2 for midje, augustl
06:28	ro_st	augustl: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3640
06:28	augustl	Fossi, ro_st: the issue is that "lein test" is still present, and it doesn't run the midje tests, so some devs (me included) might forget about it and think they ran the tests when they did "lein test"
06:28	ro_st	with that in place, i can run lein2 midje —lazytest
06:29	ro_st	i believe midje will run any existing clojure.test tests as well
06:29	ro_st	so transitioning is easy
06:30	Fossi	yes
06:30	Fossi	and you can use midje tests with lein test as well
06:30	Fossi	at least with the version/setup we are using
06:31	Fossi	not sure what that includes though
06:31	Fossi	been a while since i touched it ;)
06:31	Fossi	afair lein midje is just nicer output
06:31	ro_st	yeah
06:32	ro_st	the lazytest reloading stuff is great too. it knows how to reload changed files and all the files that depend on those changes, but only those files
06:32	Fossi	nice
06:32	ro_st	so even with a massive suite, the testing is still fast
06:36	augustl	ro_st: how would you do this with midje? http://pastie.org/4270944
06:36	augustl	seems midje doesn't have a concept of "tests"
06:37	augustl	my tests typically do a lot of stuff, so it makes sense to reset the db between each test in clojure.test. Doesn't seem to make sense to reset the db between each fact in midje, since a fact seems to be 1:1 with assertions
06:38	augustl	these particular tests only contain one assertion but I might want to have a bunch of them, do a couple of more HTTP requests, etc
06:39	ro_st	https://www.refheap.com/paste/3641
06:41	augustl	ro_st: so I can have anything I want inside a "fact"?
06:41	augustl	let, if-let, nested lets, etc?
06:42	ro_st	yup :)
06:42	augustl	not sure if I like the => syntax.. It's not very lispy
06:42	ro_st	it grows on you
06:42	augustl	'foo operator bar' that is
06:43	ro_st	in emacs, it's bright red, so it's easy to distinguish tested code vs checker code
06:43	augustl	the only thing I like is the checkers :)
06:44	augustl	perhaps there's a more generic collection assertion library I can use
06:44	augustl	like "vector contains {:foo 123}" and so on
06:51	augustl	ro_st: do you know if midje supports a more traditional syntax?
06:52	augustl	I'd prefer (=> foo bar) to foo => bar
06:54	ro_st	i don't think so
06:54	ro_st	-shrug- i like it the way it is
06:58	ro_st	augustl: i suggest scanning through the midje wiki to get a sense of why brian did it they way he did
06:58	ro_st	he provides a rationale and lots of great docs as well
07:07	augustl	ro_st: I see, thanks :)
07:08	ro_st	also, midje-mode #justsaying
07:08	ro_st	www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK2HG9U3anA
07:44	ro_st	i have an atom which contains a sorted-set of maps. i want to alter a value in one of these maps. what's the best way to update the sorted-set with the new map that update-in returns?
07:44	ro_st	disj then conj?
07:46	clgv	ro_st: yes.
07:46	clgv	ro_st: for a map you could use update-in, but in a set you can not specifically adresse one of its elements
07:50	ro_st	like this? https://www.refheap.com/paste/3643
07:50	ro_st	i realised the set won't be able to remove the node if i only give it the updated version
07:53	clgv	seems to do the job.
07:54	clgv	but are you sure that the set is the right datastructure in this case?
07:54	ro_st	i plan to use sorted-set-by and provide a custom sorting fn
07:55	ro_st	having it sorted in a particular fashion is a User Story
07:55	ro_st	i definitely have only one of each element in the structure, so a sorted-set seemed the right fit
07:56	clgv	there is also sorted-map-by where you could directly address elements via a key (e.g. id)
07:56	ro_st	i want to be able to throw nodes at it and let the sorting fn figure out what the order should be
07:56	ro_st	i guess. it'll be easy to refactor to sorted-map-by if i find that i need to. i'm going to see how far i can get without having to use ids
07:59	clgv	ro_st: but you already did a first work-around with your two functions for updating an element, so that might be an indicator that a set is not the best approach there
08:00	ro_st	i guess with sorted-map-by i can use update-in instead of disj-then-conj
08:00	clgv	right
08:03	ro_st	sorted-map-by seems to pass the keys to the comparator?
08:05	clgv	ro_st: oh right. I would have assumed that you get both
08:05	ro_st	lemme just set a breakpoint and see
08:06	clgv	&(sorted-map-by (fn [x, y] (println "x =" x "y =" y) (compare x y)) :bla 10 :blubb 20)
08:06	lazybot	⇒ x = :blubb y = :bla {:bla 10, :blubb 20}
08:11	mikem	I have a function which takes 7 arguments. I'm "stubbing" it in Midje with provided and specifying 7 anythings, one in place of each argument. Is there a way to achieve the same without being so repetitive?
08:12	ro_st	(apply fn (take 7 (constantly anything)))
08:12	ro_st	shoots from the hip
08:13	mikem	ro_st: haha, epic fail :-)
08:13	mikem	didn't work
08:14	ro_st	,(take 3 (constantly "five"))
08:14	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$constantly$fn__2351>
08:14	ro_st	damnit. i thought i understood constantly :)
08:16	ro_st	if you can find a way to make an infinite sequence of 'anything's, you can use take 7 to bite off 7 and use apply to pass em in
08:16	ro_st	lemme know when you find out how :-)
08:17	vijaykiran	,(take 3 (repeatedly (constantly "five")))
08:17	clojurebot	("five" "five" "five")
08:17	vijaykiran	:)
08:17	ro_st	repeatedly!
08:17	ro_st	(apply fn (take 7 (repeatedly (constantly anything))))
08:17	ro_st	that should do it
08:18	ro_st	although that's almost as long as
08:18	ro_st	anything anything anything anything anything anything anything
08:18	ro_st	:)
08:20	mikem	vijaykiran, ro_st: that doesn't actually work, midje explodes with a StackOverflowError
08:20	mikem	but, valiant effort!
08:21	vijaykiran	sorry, I didn't know the context - just trying to give a fix for exception that clojurebot threw
08:21	ro_st	he has (fn-name <7 anythings in a row>) and wants to know if he can instead programmatically generate 7 anythings
08:22	ro_st	and pass them as args to fn-name
08:22	clgv	mikem: there are aliases for "anything", I would use the shortest one, if the amount to write is a problem
08:23	mikem	the catch is it's in a (provided) block in Midje
08:23	mikem	clgv: oh, what are the aliases?
08:23	clgv	should be in the wiki
08:24	y3di	disclojure hiatus is depressing =/
08:25	ro_st	clgv, mikem: only synomym is 'irrelevant'
08:25	ro_st	https://github.com/marick/Midje/wiki/Checkers
08:25	clgv	damn
08:25	ro_st	nothing stopping you making your own :)
08:25	clgv	"any" or "_" would be good ^^
08:25	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
08:25	ro_st	(def :P anything)
08:26	clgv	that wont work because :P is not a symbol :P
08:26	ro_st	worth a try
08:26	ro_st	looks like sorted-map-by's comparator only takes the keys as args
08:27	mikem	I guess I was thinking more of a catch-all which means any number of arguments and anything
08:27	mikem	in case the function gains or loses arguments in the future
08:27	clgv	ro_st: yep, that was the point of the above example with sorted-map-by ;)
08:27	ro_st	that sucks. i need to be able to sort based on data in the values
08:28	ro_st	looks like sorted-set is the way, then
08:28	clgv	ro_st: well, do you need to keep the container sorted or is sorting when accessing all elements an option?
08:29	ro_st	i'd like to keep the container sorted
08:29	ro_st	because i need to be able to process delta updates in the view (so that the entire view doesn't need to be re-rendered whenever something changes)
08:30	ro_st	sorted-set-by's comparator receives the values, which works for me
08:39	cshell	Do you ugys find it easier or harder to code/develop with music on or off?
08:40	ro_st	depends on the music i guess. sometimes i must have silence. other times, jazz is great
08:40	Bronsa	prog metal is good too
08:40	ro_st	and the inception soundtrack is awesome if you want to feel like you're saving the world
08:40	Bronsa	generaly everything with very little to no lyrics at all
08:41	mprentice	classical instrument covers of rock == great coding music
08:41	mprentice	vitamin string quartet, apocalyptico
08:41	cshell	Yeah, for me if I'm thinking of a solution to a problem i need silence, if I know what I'm coding, music helps
08:42	cshell	interesting, thanks guys!
08:42	ro_st	oo nice mprentice
08:43	ro_st	i tried to grab some classical but it's always such a mixed bag
08:43	ro_st	don't want hectic, jarring music. i find that the mellow stuff is mixed in with the crazy stuff
08:44	mprentice	:D
08:44	ro_st	these guys? http://coda.fm/artists/143
08:44	cshell	I also find that if I know the cd by heart I can focus, but new songs with lyrics seems to distract me
08:44	ro_st	same here. i can code to coldplay no problem cos i know it all so well
08:45	cshell	probably because the intervals/changes are expected by our brain
08:45	cshell	and new music surprises our brain
08:57	edoloughlin	I read an article a few years ago (don't think I can find it again) where people were given logic/math problems to solve with/without background music. Everyone solved the problems but those listening to music failed to spot threads/themes that were common to all of the problems.
09:02	cshell	Do all namespaces in the application get compiled or do they only get loaded when accessed?
09:02	lnostdal	what kind of music?
09:02	lnostdal	..music with lyrics ruins everything for me for sure
09:03	cshell	me too
09:06	vijaykiran	hmm . interesting - http://faculty.nipissingu.ca/stange/courses/P2267/BackgroundMusic.pdf
09:06	augustl	hmm, the singleton-ness of the mongodb libraries for clojure bothers me. I wonder why they all seem to prefer an implicit singleton connection somewhere, instead of just passing a connection descriptor to all queries
09:06	vijaykiran	"The effect of background music and background noise on the task performance of introverts and extraverts"
09:10	cshell	augustl: You can write your functions to take whatever comes out of the library
09:10	cshell	i use congo mongo and what comes out is just a map
09:11	cshell	and I pass that map in when I want to do a search
09:21	joly	vijaykiran: I'm having trouble reading that article because of too much background noise. :P
09:23	augustl	cshell: I'm talking about the db operations, the connection is implicit
09:23	augustl	you call connect! one time and then all future calls will use that connection
09:23	cshell	ah, I don't do that with congo-mongo
09:24	cshell	I call make-connection and bind it to a var
09:24	goodieboy	anyone know if it's possible to access the resources of a dependency? For example, I have a jar that I've deployed that contains stuff in it's "resources" dir. My parent project needs to access that stuff, how to do this?
09:24	augustl	cshell: what's the API for passing that connection to queries? a with-connection like thing?
09:27	pyr	i must be doing things wrong, but while trying to load a class defined through a defrecord in a java project i get errors saying the class cannot be found (the dependency was pulled through maven)
09:27	pyr	i see the class in the jar, and when manually pulling the jar in eclipse to try out i see the class correctly
09:27	clgv	pyr: you have to load the namespace in advance
09:28	clgv	pyr: provided it was not AOT-compiled
09:30	pyr	clgv: the namespace in which the records are defined is aot compiled
09:30	duck11231	goodieboy: If you have a file in resources/ (on your classpath) you can call getSystemResourceAsStream on the classloader
09:31	clgv	pyr: humm, do you see the class files in filesystem or in the dependency-jar?
09:31	goodieboy	duck11231: OK, thanks. How can I access the classloader?
09:31	pyr	clgv: yes
09:31	clgv	pyr: you used Class.forName?
09:32	pyr	nope, it breaks at import
09:32	pyr	when i say import 'org.something.namespace.RecordName'
09:32	pyr	i get 'cannot find symbol'
09:33	pyr	symbol: RecordName
09:33	pyr	class: org.something.namespace
09:33	pyr	s,class,location
09:33	duck1123	,(Thread/currentThread)
09:33	clojurebot	#<Thread Thread[Thread-55,5,main]>
09:34	duck1123	,(.getContextClassLoader (Thread/currentThread))
09:34	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "getClassLoader")>
09:34	duck1123	goodieboy: that works if you're not in a sandbox
09:34	goodieboy	duck1123: cool thanks!
09:35	duck1123	there may be a better way
09:35	clgv	pyr: weird.
09:36	pyr	clgv: indeed, will dig further
09:36	uvtc	Would you recommend a Clojure novice use Noir, or straight Ring + Compojure?
09:36	uvtc	Also, good morning, #clojure. :)
09:37	uvtc	Er,... good *, for folks in different timezones.
09:38	clgv	uvtc: as far as the advertisement says Noir is on a higher level above Ring + Compojure
09:38	uvtc	weavejester: is it common to write web apps using just Compojure, rather than a "framework" built atop it?
09:39	lucian	i tend to take all the help i can get
09:40	duck1123	All noir is really doing is abstracting away some things and providing helpers for others. If you like those abstractions and they fit with what you want to do, then use it. But you can certainly get by without.
09:40	cshell	uvtc I just started with noir
09:40	cshell	it has a lot of helper methods that you would need for ring and compojure
09:42	uvtc	Mm. Thank you.
10:02	sh10151	Any thoughts on when to use bindings/vars and when to use explicit function parameters?
10:03	sh10151	use case is an xslt transform function -- (transform stylesheet input output)
10:03	sh10151	need to provide an interface for xsl:param and the like
10:11	sproc	If I have two loops, nested, and I am in the inner loop, how can I recur back to the "parent" loop?
10:12	sh10151	I don't think you want to do that...
10:12	tmciver	sproc: you can't in Clojure
10:12	sh10151	do you have some code to paste?
10:13	sh10151	Generally you don't want to write recur at all
10:13	sh10151	the higher-order functions take care of nearly all use cases
10:13	sproc	I'm trying to process data in functional style. I am doing work recursively in an inner loop, but if I exit that form I "lose" the data in the loop variables.
10:14	sproc	But I need that processed data in the larger loop.
10:14	sh10151	it sounds like you may need to use reduce then
10:14	sh10151	it's hard to say without any code
10:15	sh10151	or for example http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/iterate
10:17	goodieboy	duck1123: dang, i can't get this resource loading to work, hmm. I can see the resources in my dependency jar, i just can't access them in my parent project. I guess it's time for me to read up on class loaders!
10:19	sproc	sh10151: http://pastebin.com/ji5V01ig
10:20	sh10151	yea, i think a reduce is the right way to go
10:20	sh10151	the accumulator value is the {:col-widths :current-col} tuple or something
10:22	sproc	Yeah, there is a column loop within a row loop, so :col-widths accumulated that while :current-col tracked which column to process next
10:22	sh10151	shouldn't even need the current-col?
10:22	sh10151	that kind of iteration should be taken care of by map/reduce/for whatever
10:22	sh10151	main thing is to build up the col-widths map
10:23	sproc	I used it so I could use the ResultSetMetaData.getColumnName function
10:23	sproc	(which requires the index)
10:24	sh10151	sure but use map-indexed for that
10:25	sh10151	(map-indexed (fn [i thing] (str i " is " thing)) ["a" "b" "c"])
10:25	sh10151	("0 is a" "1 is b" "2 is c")
10:25	sh10151	there are other functions like that too but i can never keep them straight among python scheme and clojure
10:26	sproc	Ah, I see; that will be nice. I am new to Clojure and wasn't aware of that
10:26	sh10151	it's ok
10:26	sh10151	main thing to remember is that you almost never need to write loop/recur yourself
10:27	sproc	I was looking at loop/recur like using auxiliary/helper recursive functions
10:27	sh10151	Sure, but the recursions themselves have already been written for you
10:27	sh10151	the big ones to understand are map and reduce
10:28	sh10151	if you can start looking at nested loops as combinations of those, it should come quickly
10:28	sh10151	frankly I found it easiest to learn that with Haskell since it's very difficult to really do it another way :)
10:28	duck1123	clojureatlas.com is a good resource for when you know what type of function you need, but not what it's called
10:29	sproc	Alright, thanks. That will give me some good stuff to think about
10:30	sh10151	Anytime. Do you program JavaScript? There's actually map/reduce functions in most JS libraries
10:30	sh10151	my frontend code bears an (un?)fortunate resemblance to Lisp nowadays
10:32	sproc	The Javascript I've done has all been pretty trivial. I am starting to read about Node though and think about ways I might want to use that
10:32	sh10151	is that the server-side framework?
10:33	sh10151	my work is all JVM all the time pretty much :(
10:33	_nmmn	node.js is massive jungle of callbacks and js caveats, imo
10:33	sproc	Yeah, it's neat because it serves requests in a non-blocking way and eliminates the need for multithreading for lots of requests
10:34	duck1123	you could also use Aleph with Clojure for that
10:34	sh10151	pretty sure nginx does that too :)
10:35	pipeline	you mean sproc
10:35	pipeline	node.js only gives you a single thread
10:35	pipeline	so you had BETTER damn well write non-blocking code
10:35	_nmmn	true
10:35	pipeline	or else your app stops working
10:35	_nmmn	i think its similar fab as ruby
10:35	pipeline	believe it or not this is a trivial model to handle in any language
10:35	sh10151	If you do Perl this is a pretty good book on functional programming/higher order functions: http://hop.perl.plover.com/book/
10:35	pipeline	just don't call fork() haha
10:35	pipeline	perl makes the whole non-blocking event-based apps easy as hell, and has done for 10+ years: POE
10:36	pipeline	this is not a new model of development
10:36	pipeline	it's just that node.js gives new freedom to people who were once relegated to "front end" development
10:36	sproc	I was thinking the creator chose JS because its clojures allow you to declare several nested callback functions that have access to enclosing variables; I suppose any language supporting closures could do that
10:36	pipeline	there is an entire generation of developers who came out of design and ux backgrounds, and node.js gives these guys a server side that they are comfortable with
10:36	_nmmn	true
10:36	sh10151	select() has been around since early BSD
10:36	_nmmn	still im keeping myself from js as far as possible =]
10:36	sproc	In languages without closures it can be done but would seem to be more painful.
10:37	pipeline	(unfortunately node.js carries with it a lot of the problems you find in frontend development circa 2005: bad/no debugging, awful garbage 3rd party libraries, etc)
10:37	sproc	Yeah, there are problems getting helpful stack traces
10:37	sh10151	prototype.js :(
10:45	cshell_	Can you extend a protocol on a def record?
10:54	sproc	duck1123: Neat site
10:56	duck1123	It's great for "I need to do something to this var. Oh what's that function called again?" Also good for exploring new fns
10:56	kreig1	earthlings!
11:09	gfredericks	cshell_: I should think so
11:25	dsevilla	all
11:25	dsevilla	I'm searching for an introductory slides on core.logic that I found the other day, but I don't remember where
11:25	dsevilla	they start comparing functions with relations
11:26	dsevilla	functions only return one value
11:26	dsevilla	relations relate different input parameters and result values
11:26	dsevilla	I searched euroclojure, clojure/conj, etc., but now I can't find them
11:26	dsevilla	any of you would remember that one?
11:27	woodz	Here? https://github.com/ejackson/EuroClojure-2012-Talk
11:27	pyr	technomancy: around ?
11:27	scriptor	dsevilla: this one https://github.com/relevance/clojure-conj/blob/master/2011-slides/ambrose-bonnaire-sergeant-introduction-to-logic-programming.pdf
11:27	dsevilla	woodz: Yes, I found those, nice slides, but these were not
11:27	scriptor	you'll have to download the pdf, but I'm pretty sure it's that one
11:28	sproc	Why doesn't (get 1 {1 2 3 4}) return 2 instead of nil?
11:28	dsevilla	scriptor: ahhhhhh these are!
11:28	scriptor	,(get {1 2 3 4} 1)
11:28	clojurebot	2
11:28	dsevilla	scriptor: thanks!
11:28	scriptor	dsevilla: no prob
11:28	dsevilla	woodz: thaks to you too
11:29	scriptor	sproc: the arguments go the other way http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/get
11:29	dsevilla	very nice talk, btw
11:48	technomancy	pyr: sure
11:49	technomancy	augustl: you can alias "test" to "midje" in project.clj
12:07	pyr	technomancy: i'm trying to build java + clj projects
12:07	pyr	technomancy: where the java part loads classes defined in the clj files
12:07	pyr	technomancy: and this with leiningen, goes without saying
12:08	pyr	technomancy: i'm using lein2 and i am seeing a few weird behaviors
12:09	pyr	technomancy: first thing, even though i seem to use the correct :aot configuration the java source will never compile unless i move it elsewhere, compile my clojure classes a first time then put the java files back
12:10	pyr	technomancy: then i was never able to load a class defined through deftype in the java source code
12:10	technomancy	yeah, out of the box leiningen assumes you are going to compile java first
12:10	technomancy	because the java parts of a project are typically the legacy ones
12:10	pyr	technomancy: which makes snese
12:10	technomancy	you can change it with :prep-tasks; lemme see
12:10	pyr	sense
12:10	technomancy	:prep-tasks ^:replace ["compile" "javac"] ; <- in project.clj should work
12:11	pyr	ok
12:11	pyr	i will start by trying that out
12:23	technomancy	I actually had never tried changing :prep-tasks like that; always nice when I see something like that work the way it should =)
12:33	m0smith	hi all
12:34	m0smith	I am getting the dreaded: error: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No single method: display of interface: crossfire.protocol.peg.Peg found for function: display of protocol: Peg
12:35	m0smith	any hints on how to find out what the real problem is
12:35	m0smith	?
12:36	S11001001	m0smith: I'd start with the line numbers in the stacktrace that are actually in your code
12:36	m0smith	The compiler is not spitting out a stack trace
12:37	m0smith	I am compiling in emacs using clojure-jack-in
12:37	m0smith	Cc-Ck
12:37	S11001001	m0smith: then use C-c C-l instead
12:37	m0smith	ok
12:44	m0smith	That does spit a stack trace but none of my code is in the stack trace, as expected because it is the compiler throwing the error
12:46	S11001001	m0smith: compiler failures also have source location
12:49	harja	Hello, I'm pretty new to this clojure-stuff. What is the most idiomatic way to get input from user in a function and provide the output to another function that is called asynchronously by a framework?
12:51	harja	I mean something in the lines of (defn get-stuff [] (let [stuff-one (get-input) stuff-two (get-second-input)] (make-profit)) (defn use-it [] (let [stuff-from (get-stuff-added)] (profit))
12:51	harja	would a def:d vector be fine?
12:53	joegallo	harja: suggest you gist your example code so it's more understandable. as it is, you don't have enough closing parens, so it's hard to tell quite what you mean.
12:54	harja	ah the parens :) https://gist.github.com/2a31909da1ff277a8384
12:54	scriptor	harja: so in your example, use-it should get the data returned by get-stuff?
12:54	harja	that's a part of a quil script
12:54	S11001001	harja: I would use fewer intermediate bindings
12:54	S11001001	in fact, I would use only two in your example, harja
12:55	joegallo	harja: generally you just use arguments to functions to hold that stuff, nothing global. (do-some-with (this-value-im-generating-right-now))
12:55	scriptor	what's wrong with the intermediate bindings?
12:55	harja	joegallo: yeah, but how do I make the framework call on the (draw) method with my stuff in it?
12:56	harja	normally I would have done it using args and recursion
12:56	joegallo	harja: close over the results. hand them a function or whatever that will do the whole thing.
12:56	S11001001	scriptor: draw binds everything to be passed as an arg; has same problem as comments that narrate code directly
12:56	joegallo	(.setIntoBlah some-framework-class #(do-something-with (this-value-im-generating-right-now)))
12:57	harja	okay, got it. is there a way to do it in quil?
12:57	joegallo	clojure's anonymous functions are runnables, for instance. if one of the interfaces that clojure's functions implement isn't workable for your case, you could reify or proxy to some other interface, with basically the same effect.
12:58	joegallo	harja: be more specific, please. perhaps if you explain what it is you're trying to do, we could give better advice. as it is, this is all pretty generic. for instance, in your gist, i can't quite see what's missing...
12:59	scriptor	S11001001: those comments are considered bad because they're superfluous, since the code should say what it does
13:00	scriptor	in this case, that's what the code's doing
13:00	scriptor	I guess canvas-center-x and y aren't strictly necessary, but they make it more readable, don't they?
13:00	harja	joegallo: Basically I understood your advice that I should somehow re-set the draw function to the framework I am using to use an anonymous function that does not take any arguments hence making it compatible with the type of function it is expecting. My question is that if this is not possible, when am I allowed to use global data structures, if ever?
13:00	harja	and if I'm "forced" to use such things, what would be the best option
13:01	joegallo	for $5 i'll let you use a global data structure. but you have to pay each time. :D
13:01	S11001001	scriptor: no
13:03	scriptor	why not?
13:03	harja	joegallo: is there somekind if idiomatic way of providing these new functions to frameworks? or do I have to study every one of them if I want to use them
13:04	harja	it would be fairly trivial if I had the execution path in my hands but it's not
13:04	harja	not even fairly, but very trivial :)
13:04	harja	by execution path I mean the order things are evaluated as the program progresses on
13:04	joegallo	harja: you can just magic functions up at any time with (fn [] ...)...
13:04	harja	yes, I'm familiar with that
13:05	S11001001	scriptor: every name introduces an indirection you have to follow. The expressive value of the binding has to exceed that cost
13:06	nDuff	harja: Going back to your original question -- might a promise be an appropriate tool to represent the user input you're waiting for in this case? If it's something provided only once and reused multiple times...
13:07	scriptor	S11001001: in this case it's not obvious that width and height refer to the canvas's width and height, rather than something else's, so I'd probably agree with you if that was clearer given the rest of the code
13:08	S11001001	scriptor: ok
13:08	scriptor	otherwise, you run into the indirection of trying to figure out what width and height are referring to
13:08	harja	nDuff: I have the data when the function is invoked so I don't need promises here
13:08	nDuff	Ahh; I misunderstood the question, then.
13:12	harja	nDuff: Yeah, basically I'd just need a way to pass stuff to a function whose execution is handled by the framework I am using (quil)
13:12	harja	so, given that a user drags the mouse around, I'd be happy to add the x and y coordinates to a vector and draw lines between the successive points in the draw function
13:13	srid	technomancy: http://blog.heroku.com/archives/2012/7/17/buildpacks/ <- FYI, it was me who added buildpack support to stackato :-) i have always been a heroku fan, especially their willing use of varied technologies (go, clojure, etc..)
13:13	technomancy	srid: oh no kidding; that's cool =)
13:14	joegallo	harja: in your gist, which functions are the things you're talking about? i think we're talking past each other.
13:14	technomancy	this brings me one step closer to having all my ~/src dir be OSS
13:14	nDuff	harja: ...so, as long as the function is in a closure with access to the atom/ref/whatnot pointing to the data......
13:15	harja	joegallo: i get (mouse-x) and (mouse-y) in the (defn mouse-dragged [] ...) function. I need to "store those" and use them in the (defn draw [] ...) method
13:16	technomancy	srid: you work for activestate?
13:16	harja	nDuff: Exactly. My original question was, what is the idiomatic way to do this in Clojure
13:16	joegallo	okay. now i think i get it.
13:16	harja	since I'm very new to this language
13:17	srid	technomancy: yup, and we met briefly at clojure/conj last year. ghoseb introduced me to you, if you remember. i tried using clojure to write stackato admin UI, but it was rejected, so open sourced - https://github.com/srid/horizon
13:18	nDuff	harja: ...well, I think I answered -- close over the ref.
13:18	m0smith	s11001001: thanks. I used lein compile and it is giving much more helpful messages
13:18	joegallo	right, i agree with nDuff.
13:18	technomancy	srid: ah, too bad; that can be a hard sell sometimes
13:18	S11001001	m0smith: no prob, but that was all you I think :)
13:19	m0smith	s11001001: I wonder if swank is using a different clojure version
13:20	technomancy	m0smith: swank uses clj-stacktrace; in a few cases there are problems where generating the stack trace causes another exception =(
13:20	harja	nDuff: Okay, what is considered a closure in Clojure. Is it a context defined within a let, a namespace or something else? Can I just make the ref available in the script file I am writing or do I need to do a "global closure"?
13:20	S11001001	m0smith: if you use jack-in, compiler should be running at whatever you have set in project.clj
13:20	m0smith	thanks techomancy: I'll keep that in mind
13:21	harja	so basically am I closed under a script file
13:24	harja	can I just do (def data (ref [])) and access that in both of those functions?
13:24	harja	It seems to work
13:24	joegallo	you could.
13:24	harja	and use @data and updating in dosync
13:24	harja	that seems to be working the way I want to
13:24	harja	is that a good way to do it?
13:24	joegallo	depends on the size of the program.
13:25	joegallo	small programs get more leniency than large ones.
13:25	harja	yeah, this one is easilly under 1k lines
13:25	joegallo	you're probably fine
13:25	harja	if i'd need to do a bigger program, how would this be accomplished then?
13:26	joegallo	the alternative is to generate both the draw and the mouse-dragged function from a place where they have access to the same original ref.
13:26	joegallo	and then that ref isn't defined globally, just in that other function-generating-function.
13:26	joegallo	which is what nDuff meant by closing.
13:26	harja	yeah
13:26	harja	that's exactly my follow-up question
13:27	harja	so I need to explicitly close, there is no global namespace-closure, a script file closure or anything like that
13:27	joegallo	i'm not quite sure i know what you mean, but i think the answer is yes
13:28	harja	well, you can always think a namespace could have an implicit scope it could use "internally"
13:28	harja	or a script file for that matter
13:28	joegallo	i mean, you can always just bang on the map that is the namespace, but i think that's generally frowned on.
13:29	harja	Okay, so it's possible but not recommended :)
13:30	harja	But, the original question is now answered and I get to add data to my vector and consume it. Fantastic! An epsilon-sized step, but still..
13:34	joegallo	enough of those, and the sky's the limit.
13:35	Roey_	Hello, does anyone here have experience with the Monger clojure lib for MongoDB?
13:36	gtrak	yes, not me, but I'm sure someone does
13:44	sh10151	is there any downside to using local function definitions in a let?
13:48	technomancy	sh10151: could be harder to test in isolation
13:50	ToxicFrog	sh10151: I haven't seen any so far, and I've been doing it a lot
13:50	ToxicFrog	Since I don't like the aesthetics of letfn, especially when there's already a normal let
13:52	duck1123	Roey_: What's your question?
14:03	sh10151	these are pretty straightforward
14:03	sh10151	they're in a let
14:04	sh10151	another style question, is it bad to rely too much on dynamic vars?
14:05	sh10151	specifically the way CL uses special variables for parameterization
14:05	technomancy	sh10151: it's bad to write an API that forces callers to use dynamic variables
14:06	technomancy	build around lexical scope first and add dynamic scope once you have it working if the lexical version is cumbersome
14:06	sh10151	specifically this is for the mess of attributes/parameters/error listeners/URI resolvers/etc. that XSL processors make optional
14:07	gfredericks	cemerick spent a lot of effort back in the day on designing an interface that could be used either way
14:07	gfredericks	I'm not sure if it ended up being worth the effort/complexity
14:07	sh10151	to avoid the mutating setFoo setBar etc. would require either dynamic vars changed with binding
14:07	sh10151	or 10-argument functions
14:08	gfredericks	sh10151: maybe condense a lot of the args to a map?
14:08	technomancy	take a map and bind the default that you use if a given value isn't in the map
14:08	sh10151	there's a map for attributes
14:08	sh10151	a map for parameters
14:08	sh10151	a map for features
14:08	gfredericks	a map for maps!
14:08	sh10151	and a variable for error listener and a variable for uri resolver
14:09	sh10151	so it's still preferable to pass in one big config-type map in this case?
14:12	gtrak	sh10151: you could parameterize the building of the map with another api
14:19	sh10151	well, the use case is, 90% of the time it will contain nothing
14:19	sh10151	then occasionally one or two customizations will be needed
14:20	sh10151	or xsl-params are provided
14:20	sh10151	that's really the most common case
14:33	pyr	c/lear
14:40	harja	what's the Common LISP progn equivalent in Clojure?
14:41	arrdem	harja: (do) if I remember correctly
14:41	arrdem	,(doc do)
14:41	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithsc?al?
14:41	harja	yeah, found it :)
14:42	harja	arrdem: thanks!
14:43	arrdem	(doc do)
14:43	clojurebot	I don't understand.
14:43	arrdem	technomancy: first it speaks Irish and now it's retarded. a little help here?
14:58	twhume	I'm having trouble getting futures to cancel; future-cancel returns true, but CPU usage goes through the roof, so I think my function is still running. Any ideas? I've written up the issue and had a couple of responses at http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11520394/why-do-cancelled-clojure-futures-continue-using-cpu
14:59	twhume	Right now I'm thinking of going in and doing it all myself, but I know that's exactly the kind of thing I should avoid doing if possible...
15:01	wingy_	how do i get lein server to allow connections from the outside world?
15:15	neotyk	dnolen: ping
15:15	dnolen	neotyk: pong
15:16	neotyk	dnolen: do you know the reason for using CrossPageChannel in BrowserREPL?
15:17	dnolen	neotyk: I responded on the ML, it works everywhere back o IE6, we're not going to replace it. If you want another transport give us a patch to support alternate transports.
15:18	neotyk	dnolen: sorry, didn't notice your reply
15:20	nDuff	Which list was this? I don't see the thread on clojure-dev
15:21	neotyk	dnolen: I've seen stuff in clojure.browser.net, but only now it appeared to me that there is still a websocket stuff that was enabled by recent closure
15:21	neotyk	nDuff: clojure-users
15:22	dnolen	neotyk: yes.
15:22	augustl	is there a way to force leiningen to download the latest snapshots?
15:22	dnolen	neotyk: if it's there I'm sure a lot of people would leverage it too.
15:22	neotyk	dnolen: let me follow up on it than
15:23	dnolen	neotyk: CrossPageChannel is slow.
15:24	neotyk	how do I make lein-cljsbuild run against local cljs build?
15:24	dnolen	neotyk: checkouts
15:25	dnolen	neotyk: I'm pretty sure lein-cljsbuild mentions this.
15:27	emezeske	neotyk: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Using-a-Git-Checkout-of-the-ClojureScript-Compiler
15:28	neotyk	emezeske: just reading it, thanks
15:32	augustl	does "lein deploy" also update ~/.m2 for snapshots? Or does it just upload to the repo?
15:33	augustl	seems like it's the latter. Had some problems with a new snapshot (my own internal lib) not being available, deleting ~/.m2 fixed it though
15:40	uvtc	What else do I need to use sqlite from Clojure aside from clojure.java.jdbc? Which driver is the canonical one for sqlite?
15:41	metajack	org.xerial/sqlite-jdbc is the one i use
15:42	metajack	i use it with korma and it works out of the box.
15:42	uvtc	metajack: That's the one I see mentioned in the CP-oreilly book, but clojars has listed sqlitejdbc (zentus).
15:42	uvtc	Oh.
15:43	duck11231	uvtc: http://mvnrepository.com/artifact/org.xerial/sqlite-jdbc/3.7.2
15:43	metajack	it's not in clojars :)
15:43	hiredman	I'd recommend derby or h2 over sqlite, unless you specificly need sqlite
15:43	metajack	most of the java libs come from maven central
15:43	metajack	hiredman: why is that?
15:44	hiredman	metajack: because derby and h2 are both "native" to the jvm
15:44	uvtc	metajack: Whoops. I just realized --- it's a java lib, since it's for Java's jdbc to talk to sqlite.
15:45	hiredman	the sqlite driver, last I heard tries to load a native library, and if that fails falls back to emmulating a risc cpu on the jvm (which sounds so crazy it makes me want to google it and make sure)
15:45	uvtc	hiredman: I don't specifically need sqlite. I'm familiar with it, and like that it's small, fast, and simple though. Have not looked into derby or h2.
15:45	metajack	uvtc: I was in the same position the other day. I found it by typing "!mvn sqlite" into my search bar, which uses duckduckgo's redirection to get me to maven's search page
15:45	hiredman	http://www.zentus.com/sqlitejdbc/
15:45	clojurebot	dakrone maintains clj-http
15:45	hiredman	http://nestedvm.ibex.org/
15:46	metajack	hiredman: I'll keep those in mind for future projects, although I do like the ability to use the sqlite3 commandline tool to poke and prod the database.
15:47	uvtc	hiredman: I've got sqlite3 (and libsqlite3-0) installed (on GNU/Linux).
15:47	augustl	technomancy: "17:52 < technomancy> augustl: you can alias "test" to "midje" in project.clj" - thanks, didn't notice until now :)
15:47	clojurebot	I'm no man, and she's no lady!
15:48	hiredman	uvtc: so?
15:48	uvtc	hiredman: You'd mentioned what happens if the JVM fails to load the native library.
15:48	duck11231	uvtc: you also have a ~/.m2, so having one of the others is a lein deps away
15:50	hiredman	http://database-management-systems.findthebest.com/compare/6-16-53/Apache-Derby-vs-H2-vs-SQLite
15:51	hiredman	although, that seems suspect, I am pretty sure derby supports indices
15:51	augustl	technomancy: weird, `:aliases {"test" "midje"}` seems to run _both_ `lein test` and `lein midje` when I run `lein test`. Both midje and clojure.test output is there.
15:51	uvtc	hiredman: reading about derby and h2. Thanks for the recommendations.
15:52	duck11231	augustl: lein midje also runs normal tests
15:54	augustl	duck1123: right, I want "lein test" to run midje tests though
15:54	augustl	oh, I think I see what you mean
15:55	augustl	anyways, the output is different from "lein test" and "lein midje" when I alias test to midje
15:56	augustl	https://www.refheap.com/paste/3656 for an example
15:56	augustl	(prompt at line 16)
15:57	duck1123	augustl: yeah, that second one is definitely lein midje
15:57	augustl	duck1123: right, but there's some additional output there too
15:57	augustl	plain clojure.test output
15:57	augustl	which isn't present witih "lein midje"
15:58	augustl	so it's kind of weird that it is, since "lein test" is an alias to "lein midje" in this paste
15:59	duck1123	augustl: you're right, it looks like your alias isn't working
16:00	duck1123	midje runs it's tests when they're evaluated, so if you have facts in your test nses, they'll be run, but unless you've wrapped them, they won't be reported on
16:01	augustl	duck1123: it does kind of work though :)
16:01	augustl	"lein test" without the alias doesn't run midje tests
16:01	augustl	oh wait, never mind, it does :)
16:01	aib	can anyone help me get penumbra to run? http://paste.ubuntu.com/1097213/
16:01	augustl	should have checked that
16:02	augustl	that is, it contains the "WORK TO DO" calls as they probably print immediately
16:02	augustl	duck1123: so it's the alias that simply isn't working
16:02	augustl	perhaps aliases is a lein 2 thing
16:02	duck1123	augustl: that's what it looks like
16:03	amalloy	aib: you really want to use leiningen; it will stop you from getting the classpath wrong (which is what's happened)
16:04	amalloy	specifically, -jar ignores classpath settings, assuming the jar you pointed at has all the classes it needs
16:04	aib	ahh
16:05	aib	this is my first (2nd?) time using clojure/lein. Any reading material would be appreciated
16:05	amalloy	to do it manually (which, again, i don't recommend) you need the classpath to include the jar and run clojure.main or something
16:05	amalloy	~leiningen
16:05	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
16:08	aib	ah, I did compile the project using "lein deps" + compile. the getting-started file then told me to run some clojure commands, that's why I did java -jar, which was probably wrong, in retrospect
16:10	aib	in which case, https://github.com/ztellman/penumbra/wiki/getting-started - how do I run the REPL after 'lein deps' and 'lein compile' ?
16:12	aib	oh no. there's a 'lein repl', isn't there?
16:12	aib	of course there is.
16:31	wingy	i feel that we should pay the maintainers of a project even if it's OS
16:31	devn	hello clojurians
16:31	wingy	to have high quality libs
16:32	Raynes	wingy: Those are called donations.
16:33	wingy	they shouldn't be donations
16:33	wingy	they should be earnings
16:33	Raynes	I'll be expecting a paycheck in the mail.
16:33	wingy	you pay a carpenter making a chair for you
16:34	wingy	if someone is making a good lib and you need features added and maintenance you should pay for it
16:34	wingy	or the project might die put
16:34	wingy	out
16:34	emezeske	wingy: You can't make a perfect copy of a chair for less than one cent of electricity, though :)
16:35	wingy	kinda like ExtJS .. they started from just a lib and charged money
16:35	nDuff	wingy: You first.
16:35	wingy	now they are big .. and the thing is they can make it better
16:35	wingy	just saying
16:35	wingy	im not a lib maker
16:35	nDuff	wingy: ...or, better, you could start by reading CatB and its kin, on how and why OSS works in practice.
16:35	duck1123	So if you're forced to pay for open source software...
16:35	wingy	nothing wrong to charge for things .. if they need to make a living they wont have time to fix the libs
16:36	wingy	fulltime
16:36	nDuff	wingy: Nonsense. If your software is useful enough, companies will pay people to improve it in their own self-interest. That's not theory, it's actual practice.
16:37	nDuff	wingy: I've spent a damn lot of time fixing up OSS code while on salary, as do most people here. If that isn't paying to fund software development, what is?
16:37	wingy	there is a diff between pet projects and actual production ready projects with high doc and support quality
16:37	emezeske	wingy: I totally agree that there's nothing wrong with charging. I do think for certain projects, though, the "payment" can be in terms of bug reports, bug fixes, extra eyeballs, patches, etc
16:37	wingy	emezeske: yes
16:38	nDuff	wingy: "pet project" something someone is doing only because they choose to. I'm talking, again, about people doing work on payroll with authorization, but without their employer receiving direct remuneration for that effort.
16:39	technomancy	the software I love using most is generally written because the author couldn't not write it
16:39	wingy	i don't think a person chooses doing pet projects .. he just doesn't have the resource making it better and going all in for it
16:39	nDuff	sigh.
16:39	emezeske	technomancy: That is a great indicator! :)
16:39	nDuff	wingy: again, you're assuming this silly dichotomy that anything that isn't work-for-hire is a "pet project". It's frankly insulting.
16:40	wingy	nDuff: no .. i meant terse doc .. no maintenance
16:40	wingy	just saying you may have the skills and knowledge but you need the fuel
16:41	wingy	just another ingredience
16:41	nDuff	wingy: I've pointed you at some essays on how and why the ecosystem works. Please read them before continuing this conversation.
16:41	wingy	be good at development, be good at business
16:41	wingy	the market needs it
16:43	emezeske	wingy: Keep in mind that some people are motivated by things other than money, though.
16:43	wingy	well we all know why Ubuntu is getting more popular than Debian … they know business as well
16:43	hiredman	not I, money money money
16:44	wingy	emezeske: cant agree more .. im not talking about we do it for money..im talking about money can help
16:44	emezeske	hiredman: I guess that's why you're "hiredman" instead of "volunteerman" :)
16:44	wingy	and not trying to start a flame war but we do have to agree a lot of potential projects could be more solid
16:45	technomancy	the original meaning of the word "amateur" actually comes from the root "amor"; in other words, done out of love.
16:45	emezeske	wingy: Sure, but money isn't always a fix
16:45	mattmoss	Throwing money at things is not an automatic win.
16:45	wingy	emezeske: didnt say that .. it helps
16:45	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:45	mattmoss	However, throwing money at me is a wonderful thing.
16:45	wingy	mattmoss: i agree .. throw it on top devs coding for love
16:45	emezeske	Heh, it sometimes helps.
16:46	wingy	but they need to make a salary as well
16:46	emezeske	technomancy: Interesting fact!
16:46	wingy	not everyone wants to use java/php at their job
16:46	mattmoss	wingy: What if they're already salaried? You seem to have ignored nDuff's points.
16:46	duck1123	throw money at me and I consider it a win. Just not pennies, those hurt
16:46	technomancy	emezeske: call me a professional amateur =)
16:46	mattmoss	Pennies aren't worth anything anyway.... except for making large penny pyramids.
16:47	emezeske	technomancy: Same here!
16:47	wingy	mattmoss: not everyone works on the thing they really want to work on
16:47	wingy	mattmoss: some work for money only, no love at jobs
16:48	mattmoss	You seem to be conflating a few different arguments. Perhaps sticking to one at a time?
16:48	wingy	mattmoss: i dont get what you mean .. everything is connected?
16:48	mattmoss	Everything is connected? I highly doubt that.
16:49	wingy	you do what you love .. you make a living out of it .. you can throw more resources at it .. KISS people
16:49	technomancy	everything is intertwigled
16:49	wingy	not saying money is everything so stop throwing that at me
16:49	duck1123	mattmoss: You've obviously never taken acid
16:49	mattmoss	Complected?
16:49	mattmoss	duck1123: That's true.
16:49	mattmoss	Did you hear the one about the Buddist in New York City who asked a hot dog vendor, "Make me one with everything." ?
16:50	technomancy	I'm all for contributing money to oss projects, but the idea that the devs can use their donations to work on their projects full-time only works with very high-profile projects
16:51	wingy	technomancy: yes
16:51	wingy	i mean .. my parents sell food for just a small town .. they make more money than 10 developers in total
16:51	wingy	one dev makes a lib 500-1000 people are using .
16:52	wingy	i say that is not that hard as we have seen, but no money in? makes me wonder .. money isn't evil..taking charge somehow can be good for everyone, the users especially
16:53	wingy	if devs know how to take charge i think the OS market would be more solid and with good quality, doc, testing etc
16:53	technomancy	you have to have a lot of money (and a predictable stream of it) before you can quit your job to do something full time
16:54	aaelony	you need a pipeline of work or a rainmaker :)
16:54	wingy	technomancy: you make what you love at freetime as you always do and then take charge for it when you have > 300 users
16:55	wingy	more than 300 users using your thing .. yeah that is a product you have
16:55	uvtc	mattmoss: the customer paid for the hot dog with a 10, but the vendor didn't give him any change. When the customer asked for his change, the hot dog vendor said, "Change comes from within."
16:55	duck1123	There was a site I saw that let you set Bitcoin bounties for checking in passing commits or fixing bugs, but I can't seem to find the original link
16:56	mattmoss	uvtc: Good one.
16:56	wingy	im not the "i need to charge guy" im the "i pay you just make good docs and better features so I feel happier" .. that's what we are used to when buying iphone/android apps .. pay a small fee for something you want .. you are not participating in an evil cult
16:56	wingy	the OS projects could definitely be charged as apps
16:57	technomancy	I'll happily pay for software as long as it's open source
16:57	wingy	me 2
16:58	mattmoss	wingy: It's not an evil cult, no, but your "i pay you..." statement comes off as a demand, not a request.
16:59	joegallo	i wonder how that model is working out for the itext guy.
16:59	mattmoss	Great thing about open-source... fork and improve.
16:59	uvtc	... and send pull-request. :)
17:01	wingy	mattmoss: didn't solve the resource problem
17:01	mattmoss	wingy: What resource problem?
17:01	wingy	:/
17:02	mattmoss	The resources necessary for developing software are human effort.
17:02	mattmoss	One way to acquire that is through money to an interested developer, but is hardly the only way.
17:02	kreig1	wingy: can you guess why I am skeptical of your perspective on open-source software and what goes into the process of making software?
17:03	mattmoss	The developer you are demanding write docs in exchange for $$$ may be more interested in throwing around the football with his kids...
17:03	mattmoss	...meanwhile another developer who likes writing docs (if there is such a thing) would happily fork and improve the project if asked.
17:03	wingy	mattmoss: what a company does with their money i cannot control .. but i think we all we'll see the outcome for each version
17:04	mattmoss	Or a company decides it is in their best interests to hire/pay for those docs.
17:04	kreig1	and whose to say the best part of software production is the software?
17:04	wingy	and i doubt that passionate devs would wanna kill their baby project
17:04	wingy	it's their life
17:04	nDuff	wingy: ...so, just took you off ignore to explain something. You gave ExtJS as an example of a project "doing it right". For me, it's an example of a project I can't use commercially, because my employers (the last several of them!) won't touch software with for-cost licensing, no matter how useful it is, period -- and that hurts the project, because I contribute real, useful things -- well-researched bug reports, fixes, new f
17:04	nDuff	eatures, etc.
17:04	mattmoss	wingy: You are making many unfounded assertions.
17:05	nDuff	wingy: ...so, you're actively advocating a model that would make my life worse by increasing the range of Stuff I Can't Use.
17:05	wingy	nDuff: first of all i didn't ignore anything .. if there is something i didn't address just ask again .. its a quite broad discussion
17:06	wingy	nDuff: well if you put it in that way i can't argue anymore
17:06	kreig1	hehe
17:06	kreig1	good, then stop
17:06	kreig1	so, how about those macros
17:08	scriptor	there was an article about how soldiers reacted when the red cross started charging for formerly free donuts
17:09	scriptor	not sure how relevant it is, but it's interesting to think of the psychology
17:09	technomancy	gratis donuts, you mean
17:09	scriptor	donuts libre
17:09	technomancy	the soldiers weren't improving the donut recipe as they ate them, though that would be awesome if they could
17:10	kreig1	according to e. coli they were
17:10	technomancy	"hm; have you considered what a little nutmeg would do to the flavor profile here?"
17:10	scriptor	more like, "this donut doesn't work horribly unformatted donut-mulch attached plz fix thx"
17:10	mattmoss	Mmm, donuts libre. drool
17:11	technomancy	the red cross is all "HAVE YOU SIGNED PAPERWORK"
17:12	mattmoss	Curious if anyone is doing heavy Java interop... I'm split over passing around lots of POJOs vs. wrapping them in maps (with extra info at times).
17:13	mattmoss	Like... (defn create-foo [a b] (Foo. a b)) vs. (defn create-foo [a b] {:instance (Foo. a b)})
17:25	gfredericks	mattmoss: I don't think it'd be idiomatic to wrap them except for the purpose of the extra info; i.e., not for its own sake
17:27	duck1123	It really depends on how close to the line you're working
17:27	mattmoss	gfredericks: I suppose what I was mulling over was passing around maps of things and shoving them into POJOs at the point of a Java call, or requiring use of POJOs spread throughout the clojure code.
17:27	mattmoss	The former seems cleaner, "nicer", Clojure code... hiding away the "nasty" details of POJOs.
17:28	mattmoss	But I may just be needlessly worrying.
17:37	nDuff	I'm interested in temporarily disabling watches on a known list of atoms during test setup/teardown. Is a mechanism available?
17:38	technomancy	nDuff: can you just with-redefs the associated vars to (constantly true)
17:38	technomancy	I guess that only works if you pass the var in as the watcher, not the function itself
17:40	nDuff	...so, I could see doing that to just put in entirely new atoms, but the effects of the watches are a big part of what I want to test during operation.
17:41	wingy	do you guys use a statechart/statemachine in frontend cljs when coding? if not, how do you usually organize your code?
17:44	siscia	aaelony, thank you also for jiraph ;-D
17:44	duck1123	wingy: Have you seen Waltz?
17:45	duck1123	I just refactored some of my code this past weekend to use that, seems pretty nice so far
17:49	wingy	duck1123: ill give it a try .. seems to be the most popular one in cljs land
17:50	wingy	in worse case scenario if that won't cut it I see if I can use http://stativ.us/ with cljs
17:51	wingy	if the oop style would work nicely
17:51	duck1123	wingy: Heres what I did with Waltz. https://github.com/duck1123/jiksnu/blob/dev/src-cljs/jiksnu/websocket.cljs
17:52	duck1123	still a WIP, obviously
17:52	hiredman	b
17:53	aaelony	siscia: thank flatland folks... who are awesome to the hilt
17:54	wingy	duck1123: great i can use your project as a template for frontend :)
17:54	duck1123	And on that note, I'm out of here. Time to get home and trade in my Java and js for Clojure and cljs.
17:54	wingy	haha
17:54	duck1123	wingy: have at it. Share and enjoy
17:55	Raynes	amalloy: Here that, Alan? To the hilt.
17:55	Raynes	Hear, even.
17:55	Raynes	Here, there, whatever.
17:55	fsmunoz	If you allow an external observation, you clojure guys seem permanently in a state of bliss. Every time I read the buffer it's all about people saying nice things about the language, the libs, the weather.
17:56	Raynes	Clojure rocks! I sampled everything in the medicine cabinet for comparison, but I think that this euphoria is the Clojure.
17:56	technomancy	fsmunoz: just wait; we've overdue for someone to announce their independent re-invention of "lisp without parens, to make it easier for newbies" on the mailing list
17:57	emezeske	Raynes: Nice, you got your doctor to write you a clojure-script?
17:58	aperiodic	(inc emezeske)
17:58	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:58	fsmunoz	technomancy, Raynes: heheh
18:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	The documentation format for special-forms and macros kinda sucks.
18:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	(fn name? ([params* ] exprs*)+) <- it's like a weird mixture of ad-hoc sexp and regex.
18:06	TimMc	It's more like BNF, really.
18:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Except for not.
18:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: But if I squint really hard, I see your point.
18:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Either way, the usage of ? + and * (and the implied meaning of each) makes it look more like a syntax based on regex.
18:07	clojurebot	the best way to represent X is as a regular clojure map. (for most values of x)
18:07	TimMc	Like BNF that has been condensed. You can do that more easily with languages whose syntax is close to their AST.
18:08	fsmunoz	speaking of weird, is there a reason why the doc string is before the args? It looks weird to me, but I suppose there is a language feature that makes this sensible?
18:08	TimMc	clojurebot: We value your input. Please wait for the next available logger.
18:08	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
18:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Except for BNF has the descriptive power of telling me exactly valid and invalid syntaxes. This format is only approximate and doesn't really describe anything about the form in any detail.
18:09	TimMc	fsmunoz: I could come up with philosophical reasons re: doc-driven development, but the real answer probably lies somewhere in the multi-arity syntax.
18:09	SegFaultAX\|work2	That would be my guess as well.
18:09	fsmunoz	TimMc: yes, that was what I was suspecting
18:09	fsmunoz	ty
18:11	TimMc	It's easy to accidentally write (defn foo [args] \n "docstring but not really" ...) and have a fake docstring. :-/
18:11	TimMc	Anyone know if ibit catches that?
18:11	TimMc	*kibit
18:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Is that a clojure linter
18:11	SegFaultAX\|work2	?
18:12	SegFaultAX\|work2	Ah, static code analysis.
18:19	wingy	what do you think about http://emberjs.com/documentation/ for frontend with cljs .. it's using MVC/OOP approach
18:19	wingy	statemachine is one of the things included
18:21	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: I like backbone. Ember is pretty heavy for what I'm usually looking for.
18:21	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: Just my $0.02
18:21	wingy	SegFaultAX\|work2: but is using a MVC/OOP framework OK even for a FP lang?
18:21	wingy	mixing 2 different paradigms
18:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: Those don't really have anything to do with each other.
18:22	wingy	SegFaultAX\|work2: now you have to put your maps/vectors into their models i guess?
18:22	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: MVC is a design pattern for separation of concerns. In a nutshell: Models are for application state and business logic, views are for UI/UX, and controllers are a bridge between them.
18:24	wingy	yeah i know, was curious about if that would break something important now when I think data and logic should be kept separate
18:24	fsmunoz	I think that they can match well, especially if one considers that the view is mostly about side-effects
18:25	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: That isn't really related to MVC, so you're probalby good there if that pattern matches your problem.
18:25	fsmunoz	and the model can be thus more "pure", containing the actual logic and not polluted by (doto (.JFrame)...)
18:25	fsmunoz	(or whatever it is really like)
18:25	wingy	ok
18:25	wingy	seems that we are all green to go
18:26	wingy	that's is one of the selling point to clj/cljs to me that it's pragmatic to leverage the current libs/frameworks in the host env
18:26	SegFaultAX\|work2	fsmunoz: Maybe if you separate models from persistence (eg Models & Repositories) but when those two concepts are coupled (which they often are) then both can be heavily side-effecting.
18:26	wingy	without wrappers
18:26	SegFaultAX\|work2	fsmunoz: After all, it's up to the models to transform application state.
18:27	fsmunoz	SegFaultAX\|work2: quite right, haven't thought of it that way
18:27	wingy	yay . so now we have bootstrap and emberjs including a statechart for free
18:27	SegFaultAX\|work2	fsmunoz: In other words, unless the data layer is abstracted away, models will necessarily be side-effecting.
18:39	SegFaultAX\|work2	I need to interop with git, what's a good library to do that with?
18:40	Raynes	clojure.java.shell
18:40	Raynes	;)
18:40	technomancy	there are a couple jgit wrappers; don't use the one from seajure as it was a swarm-coding exercise and not further maintained
18:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	Actually maybe just writing a wrapper for working with git from the shell wouldn't be so bad.
18:42	technomancy	jgit is great for reading; I haven't used it for commits and push/pull stuff
18:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: This would be read-only.
18:42	amalloy	write a wrapper for working with git from the shell? isn't that just git?
18:42	technomancy	git's CLI is beyond awful though
18:43	amalloy	whaaaat
18:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: I use it everyday.
18:43	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: I don't find it that bad.
18:43	amalloy	get out of my channel, technomancy
18:43	technomancy	it's bad!
18:43	technomancy	it just is.
18:43	amalloy	there are some bad things for sure
18:43	technomancy	it overloads commands to do like five different operations
18:43	technomancy	it calls the staging area the "index"
18:44	technomancy	you learn about how it's bad, and you stop noticing it if you use it every day
18:45	technomancy	every time I have to drop out of magit and use regular git it just feels so backwards
18:45	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Your first point is somewhat true. Second one is irrelevant. As for the third, well you learn to live with the warts of any tool if it helps you Get Shit Done (tm)
18:46	technomancy	I agree; I still use git. I just think you can do better if you're going to wrap it.
18:46	SegFaultAX\|work2	Which commands do you feel are too heavily overloaded?
18:46	technomancy	"checkout" is the most obvious one
18:46	SegFaultAX\|work2	Why do you think that?
18:46	technomancy	because it's used for switching branches as well as discarding changes to the working copy and a few other things
18:47	technomancy	there's no conceptual coherence to it
18:47	gtrak	you're not 'discarding changes', that's just a side-effect
18:47	technomancy	the underlying model of storage is very good, which is the only reason tools with a good UX like magit can be built on top of it
18:47	SegFaultAX\|work2	It does exactly 1 thing, it changes your working directory based on a commit-ish.
18:47	SegFaultAX\|work2	That's all.
18:47	technomancy	no, it creates new branches too
18:48	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: No it doesn't. git-checkout -b does.
18:48	technomancy	yes?
18:48	clojurebot	yes isn't is
18:48	technomancy	also: IIRC git branch creates a branch without switching to it; wtf
18:48	technomancy	no one has ever wanted to do that
18:48	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Because all its doing under the hood is associating a ref with a commit-ish.
18:49	gtrak	I just saw in mercurial yesterday, hg resolve discards local changes and pulls up a merge tool... hg resolve -m says you've already resolved it
18:49	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: who cares what's happening under the hood?
18:49	SegFaultAX\|work2	Sure they do. Before a rebase operation you might make a "backup" by using git-branch.
18:49	technomancy	it's ignoring the perspective of a user
18:49	SegFaultAX\|work2	Which really means "I don't want to look through the reflog if I fuck this up"
18:49	gtrak	mercurial's user philosophy is supposed to be better
18:49	technomancy	I've forgotten most of my other complaints because luckily I can most things done with magit these days
18:49	gtrak	git's user experience was never its selling point
18:50	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: The problem is you don't grok git.
18:50	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Remembering that it started as a collection of tools instead of one big application helps.
18:50	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: the problem is you have to understand irrelevant details to use it effectively
18:50	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Perhaps.
18:50	technomancy	oh, the other big thing was that everyone says "git pull is the same thing as git fetch plus git merge" but there are subtle details between the two, and fetch+merge is pretty much always what you want
18:51	technomancy	since pull ignores certain aspects of the remote IIRC
18:51	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: What are the subtle details you're thinking of?
18:51	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: It doesn't.
18:51	technomancy	I sort of wish I could remember, but on the other hand I'm also kind of glad I've forgotten =)
18:51	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: But you can certainly get weird issues if your refspecs are configured improperly, I'll give you that.
18:52	hiredman	technomancy: push pushes everything if you don't give it a branch?
18:53	SegFaultAX\|work2	I'm not a git evangelist. I just hear a lot of people bitch about git without having meaningful arguments against it. "It's harder" is a fine argument all by itself which most folks won't disagree with.
18:54	technomancy	hiredman: that's a fun one too
18:54	technomancy	the problem is that git devs claim that git is both porcelain and plumbing, but it's really all just plumbing with various levels of polish applied
18:55	technomancy	hahaha: "Git refers to implementation details as “plumbing” and the user interface as “porcelain”, in order to make it clear that git’s designers think of git with the same reverence I think of the instrument that handles the organic waste that my body produces."
18:56	technomancy	reset is another example of a single command that has many different purposes
18:57	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Sorry, my connection died.
18:57	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: What were you saying?
18:57	amalloy	yeah, reset is poorly named
18:58	Raynes	SegFaultAX\|work2: He was saying whinewhinewimperbitchblaaaahblurggitsucks.
18:58	SegFaultAX\|work2	Haha.
18:58	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: "reset is another example of a single command that has many different purposes"
18:58	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: reset is easily one of the more complicated features of git.
18:58	technomancy	I like it as an API, but it leaves a lot to be desired as an application
18:58	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: It allows you to interact with the tree, index, and working directory all in one.
18:58	technomancy	and usually I don't have to use it as an application, so I'm fairly happy
18:59	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: I agree to a certain extent that reset is overloaded. But understanding how it /actually/ works really helps.
19:00	technomancy	well-designed applications allow users to learn gradually
19:00	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Most new or mid-level users of git have only a basic understanding of how git-reset operates.
19:00	amalloy	SegFaultAX\|work2: i don't know why you're telling me this. i like reset
19:01	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Awesome! All I got was that it's poorly named. :)
19:01	amalloy	well, it is
19:01	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Dunno what else I'd call it.
19:01	amalloy	i'm very comfortable with git; i don't need evangelizing :P
19:02	SegFaultAX\|work2	"ref-sync" maybe.
19:03	Raynes	I'd call it reset.
19:03	Raynes	That's much better than reset.
19:03	SegFaultAX\|work2	:)
19:04	gtrak	git reset --hard just makes me feel lika a badass
19:04	amalloy	and then usually an idiot, right?
19:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	gtrak: git reset --hard && git clean -df
19:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	gtrak: Like a boss.
19:04	gtrak	what's that do?
19:04	Raynes	technomancy: You should use mercurial.
19:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	gtrak: Also removed everything untracked.
19:04	amalloy	technomancy: i guess i would say that the git cli has the same problem emacs does: it's not very discoverable, but it's powerful and usable
19:04	gtrak	amalloy: haven't blown my foot off with that yet
19:05	technomancy	Raynes: magit solves all my problems
19:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	amalloy: Some people say the same thing about vim. I think most complex tools get that wrap.
19:05	gtrak	I want your hardest reset, git... don't hold back
19:05	technomancy	git reset --hard --with-a-vengeance
19:06	duck1123	you have to pass --hard to get the special ending
19:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	technomancy: Does that null out the sectors on my hdd before it resets?
19:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	duck1123: No one likes it --soft.
19:14	wingy	i need to dig deeper into git
19:15	jballanc	Question on idiomatic clojure: if I have a filter of a lazy-seq, and I want to print all of the matching entries, what's the best way?
19:15	jballanc	right now I'm using println and clojure.string/join with "\n"…but it feels wrong
19:16	emezeske	jballanc: What feels wrong about that?
19:17	jballanc	I just feel like I should be able to pass println to the seq, instead of having to join the seq and pass to println
19:17	jballanc	for example, if it were Ruby, I'd finish with "filtered_list.each { \|elem\| puts elem }"
19:18	emezeske	Well, you could (doseq [elem elems] (println elem))
19:18	jballanc	but, everything I try, I just keep ending up with more lazy-seqs
19:18	jballanc	ah, doseq will realize the lazy-seq?
19:18	gtrak	jballanc: (apply println seq?)
19:18	emezeske	gtrak: Isn't apply lazy?
19:18	gtrak	,(apply println [1 2 3 4 5])
19:18	clojurebot	1 2 3 4 5
19:19	gtrak	emezeske: the realization is lazy, but the invocation isn't
19:19	gtrak	errr...
19:20	gtrak	it's not curried, so I'm not sure why it would be lazy
19:20	emezeske	jballanc: Yes, doseq's purpose is to be un-lazy
19:20	emezeske	jballanc: I should say, it's purpose is for side-effects
19:20	jballanc	ah, yes…that works perfectly
19:21	jballanc	thanks, emezeske!
19:21	gtrak	,(let [_ (apply println [1 2 3 4 5]) _ (println "should happen second")] nil)
19:21	clojurebot	1 2 3 4 5
19:21	clojurebot	should happen second
19:21	gtrak	emezeske: ^
19:21	emezeske	gtrak: At any rate, that's not what jballanc is trying to do
19:22	gtrak	why not?
19:22	emezeske	See his original example, he is printing each element on a separate line
19:22	gtrak	jballanc: if you want to make it feel nicer, try interpose and I think there's a \newline
19:22	jballanc	hmm…hadn't seen interpose
19:22	jballanc	ah, but still lazy
19:23	gtrak	until you do it
19:23	gtrak	that's kinda the point of laziness
19:23	emezeske	jballanc: Just use doseq, that's exactly what it's made for
19:23	jballanc	right…so, to give more context, this is reading a file in the context of a with-open
19:24	jballanc	it's annoying that if the expressions all evaluate lazily until you finish the with-open form, you get a Exception in thread "main" (java.io.IOException: Stream closed)
19:25	gtrak	jballanc: yea, you need to do something to actually realize it, doseq, mapv, into
19:26	jballanc	got it
19:26	jballanc	I'm still learning, but I actually rather like this aspect of clojure
19:31	gtrak	jballanc: I like to think about it like lazy seqs are reified computations in value-land, and side-effects aren't compatible with that notion. What's the conceptual value of that item if it depends on a resource having not been closed yet?
19:35	jballanc	gtrak: it's a good question but, if I may be so bold, couldn't closing the stream be done lazily when the list is fully realized?
19:36	gtrak	jballanc: sure, if you're doing that you want to use a countdownlatch or something
19:36	gtrak	but then what if it isn't fully realized?
19:37	gtrak	but yea, that's the secret, contain as a value everything that the value depends on
19:37	jballanc	yes, not at all an easy task…in any language, I think
19:53	wingy	what is the reason for this inconsistent naming in cljs: (array) for creating an array and (js-obj) for creating an object?
19:54	gtrak	wingy: inconsistent how?
19:54	wingy	why not js-array or obj
19:55	gtrak	(def js-array array) ; mm feels so much better ;-)
19:56	kreig1	array is a shared type, js-obj is a jscript specific type?
19:56	kreig1	hmm, no, not tit
19:57	Raynes	Always tit.
19:57	kreig1	there are not arrays in cljs, don't have a repl open to confirm tho
19:57	emezeske	kreig1: There are arrays in cljs
19:57	kreig1	vectors tho right?
19:57	emezeske	kreig1: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/cljs/cljs/core.cljs#L78
19:59	wingy	gtrak: ...
19:59	kreig1	I know that, but it's not a native clojure type, but I have a hunch that distinction is in my head only
20:00	gtrak	I was looking for a all? instead of an every? the other day... I think it just happens sometimes
20:00	gtrak	thankfully it's not that big a deal
20:02	wingy	hi there, I'm a such mature person who talks inbetween the lines all the time since i find it's contributing
20:03	wingy	instead of trying to help to answer the question i make a fool of them so they find them self in shame
20:03	gtrak	wingy: sorry I don't know the answer, it doesn't seem to me like it's intentional either way
20:37	bloudermilk	This is a very broad question and I apologize for that, but is there any reason a function would behave differently in the REPL than when running lein run?
20:37	kenneth	hey is there a way to use stuff in /usr/share/java in my class path with lein
20:38	bloudermilk	Such as environment differences?
20:38	aperiodic	bloudermilk: yes; the REPL forces evaluation of lazy sequences
20:38	gtrak	bloudermilk: the repl does bind some vars that aren't there otherwise
20:39	technomancy	bloudermilk: the repl also pulls in a few dependencies needed for clojuredocs etc.
20:39	technomancy	and nrepl
20:39	bloudermilk	Ah that seems like a likely source of the problem
20:39	gtrak	aperiodic: I think I've been hit by that one
20:40	bloudermilk	aperiodic: pretty sure that's what I'm experiencing
20:40	technomancy	kenneth: short answer: no, it needs to pull from a real repository in order to avoid certain kinds of problems
20:40	technomancy	~repeatability
20:40	clojurebot	repeatability is crucial for builds, see https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Repeatability
20:40	aperiodic	bloudermilk: check out doall, dorun, and doseq
20:40	bloudermilk	aperiodic: Will do. Shouldn't calling map on a set evaluate it though?
20:41	emezeske	bloudermilk: map is lazy.
20:42	bloudermilk	A hah!
20:42	technomancy	clojurebot: map?
20:42	clojurebot	map is lazy
20:42	aperiodic	bloudermilk: the set will be evaluated, but the lazy sequence produced by map may not have its elements realized without something that forces it
20:42	kenneth	technomancy: what's the traditional way of dealing with JNI jars?
20:42	technomancy	weeping and gnashing of teeth
20:42	technomancy	kenneth: seriously though; generally people include statically-compiled binaries inside jars
20:43	technomancy	docs are a bit slim on this; best to follow the example of some of the existing native libs
20:43	kenneth	i'm compiling the JNI using an automated build script and placing the jar in /usr/share/java because the one published on clojars is broken
20:43	technomancy	what's the library?
20:43	bloudermilk	aperiodic: If I just want to call a function on all the elements in a set without caring about the return values, should I be using something other than map? Or is it a combination of do* and map
20:43	kenneth	jzmq
20:44	technomancy	there are working versions of jzmq; you don't need to roll your own
20:44	technomancy	I'm not sure which they are though
20:44	aperiodic	bloudermilk: i'd use (doseq [elem set] ...)
20:45	aperiodic	bloudermilk: but yeah, if you want side effects, don't use map
20:45	kenneth	technomancy: i've spent literally days trying to get jzmq to work, and only got it to work by compiling it myself
20:46	bloudermilk	aperiodic: Thanks, will do. I imagine this is something I should use sparingly? I have three functions in this chain. Maybe just the outer-most function?
20:47	aperiodic	bloudermilk: sure, you can build stuff up lazily with map and then force side effects with dorun
20:48	duck1123	So just to clarify, If I connect to a browser repl, then I should be able to require my code and dependencies, correct? All I get is this. https://gist.github.com/3133277
20:48	bloudermilk	aperiodic: Appreciate the help. Thanks
20:52	hiredman	duck1123: depends on the optimization level
20:53	hiredman	duck1123: I believe if you have adavanced opts on everything get's mangled and doing repl stuff will be very painful
20:55	duck1123	I don't have any optimization
20:56	duck1123	whitespace and pretty-print
20:56	hiredman	you may need to refer cljs.core or something, if require is undefined
20:57	duck1123	It seems that I can refer to the functions directly (ie. jayq.core/$)
20:57	hiredman	what happens if you use (cljs.core/require ...) instead of (require ...)
20:58	duck1123	same
21:14	gfredericks	I wouldn't think require would ever be defined in cljs
21:14	gfredericks	unless something has changed
21:15	duck1123	so you're saying that I can't require namespaces from the repl? Or I should be able to
21:15	duck1123	I'm just trying to avoid needing to fully qualify everything
21:15	gfredericks	afaik you can only do it within a (ns ...)
21:16	duck1123	that makes cljs repl severely less useful
21:16	gfredericks	yeps
21:27	arrdem	is there a way I can have multiple (:use :as ) statements with the same :as?
21:29	emezeske	arrdem: You're, like, trying to combine multiple namespaces into a single alias?
21:31	emezeske	arrdem: I don't think you can do that, because :as is probably implemented via refer, which doesn't create a new ns, just an alias
21:31	arrdem	emezeske: to be specific, I'm using congomongo :as db and it needs a global mongo-config which is __not__ in somnium.congomongo, it's in config. as a result I would like to :only import the var to db
21:31	arrdem	so yes... I guess I want to merge namespaces.
21:32	emezeske	That seems like a bad idea to me; the nice thing about :use :as is that you can look at a form and trace it back to a single namespace
21:32	emezeske	Whereas if you start combining namespaces, you don't know where a form came from
21:32	emezeske	Anyway, I am pretty sure you can't do that with :use :as
21:34	arrdem	emezeske: 's ok. I'll just ditch the :as and bring it all into my local ns. %s/"bd/"/""/g and done.
21:34	arrdem	*db/
21:34	amalloy	emezeske: that's true of :require/:as; :use/:as is generally a bad idea
21:35	emezeske	amalloy: Oh, I totally had :require/:as in my head
21:35	emezeske	Derp
22:08	clj_newb_2057290	what happened to rule based programming langauges?
22:08	clj_newb_2057290	why have none of them ever taken off?
22:14	nicholasf	how are people using leiningen for scripting tasks?
22:15	technomancy	nicholasf: what are you trying to do?
22:16	nicholasf	hi technomancy - I want to drop a database after a test run
22:16	technomancy	can you use test fixtures for that?
22:16	nicholasf	in this case, we have a convention that we need this scripted (for a continuous delivery system to call)
22:16	technomancy	meaning I think it should be done at runtime, not at build time
22:17	nicholasf	yeh, but regardless of the problem, how do I script a task with leiningen?
22:17	nicholasf	is there a way people generally do it?
22:17	technomancy	usually you use a plugin that already exists =)
22:18	technomancy	but if you need to write your own, the plugin guide explains how: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PLUGINS.md
22:18	nicholasf	thanks mate
22:18	technomancy	sure
22:50	amalloy	unlink: a week or so ago you mentioned having some troubles with slingshot - you might be interested in https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot/issues/24, which explained to me why i was having trouble with it
23:27	gnarmis	is anyone aware of efforts to write a lang level for clojure in racket, so we can use the awesome dr racket?
23:29	yonatane	Can I add to an existing multimethod from somewhere else?
23:29	yonatane	like from another namespace, to some multimethod that a third-party defined?
23:31	gfredericks	yes
23:31	gfredericks	you can
23:31	gfredericks	that's most of the motivation for multimethods I think
23:32	yonatane	gfredericks: so i can just hook my code to a third-party without dependency injection like that?
23:33	gfredericks	...sure?
23:33	yonatane	if the caller used to invoke the default, it will now invoke my code if i configured it correctly?
23:34	gfredericks	sounds right
23:34	gfredericks	you should be able to experiment with that in the repl
23:35	gfredericks	put a (defmulti) in one namespace and a (defmethod) in another
23:35	gfredericks	I'm doing this right now because I've never tried it
23:36	gfredericks	and it worked perfectly