#clojure – 2012-07-16

2012-07-16

00:07	Raynes	sproc: I call it annoying.
00:07	Raynes	;)
00:12	michaelr`	good morning everybody!!!
00:21	pppppaul	who here is on a mac?
00:31	akhudek	I am, can I help?
00:44	duck1123	"In a recent poll in #clojure, 100% of respondants reported using a Mac"
00:48	musicalchair	is there something I have to do to get local vars to show up in a slime stacktrace (using swank)?
00:48	musicalchair	All I ever see is
00:48	kreig1	crime in the city
00:48	scottj	musicalchair: clojure?
00:48	musicalchair	"[No locals]" (whoops, accidentally hit return)
00:49	musicalchair	yeah
00:49	scottj	musicalchair: oh, thought I was in #emacs :)
00:49	musicalchair	scottj: heh
00:50	scottj	musicalchair: I think you only see them if you call (swank.core/break) and then some are cleared. clojure 1.4 has an option to turn locals clearing off. I haven't done any of this in months though so my memory could be wrong.
00:54	musicalchair	scottj: hmm ok - that works. I'll dig around for the locals clearing toggle
00:55	scottj	musicalchair: also ritz might support showing locals in more cases than clojure-swank.
00:57	arrdem	is there a better parser library for Clojure than fnparse?
01:01	musicalchair	scottj: cool, I'll look into that. Thanks
01:01	arrdem	and by better I simply mean more up to date... I see some updates on clojars but none which is a clear successor too joshua-choi's
01:01	akhudek	arrdem: not that I know of. You could always try using ANTLR (java lib) if fnparse doesn't work for you.
01:02	akhudek	also, no updates is not necessarily a bad thing
01:03	akhudek	although I guess a proper clojure 1.3 update would be good
01:03	arrdem	akhudek: I've used fnparse before and I love it... but post-1.3 and not requiring clojure-contrib (which lein2 no longer supports) would be nice
01:03	arrdem	and is why I ask
01:04	dakrone	arrdem: https://github.com/protoflex/parse-ez maybe?
01:05	arrdem	dakrone: that's cool...
01:05	technomancy	parsatron looks nice, but I haven't used it
01:05	akhudek	this is always good to check too: http://clojure-libraries.appspot.com/
01:09	technomancy	clojurebot: ok, go get a mop
01:09	clojurebot	https://github.com/technomancy/robert-hooke
01:10	technomancy	that'll do
01:10	arrdem	I..... what is this witchcraft
01:11	arrdem	besides awesome that is
01:38	dsrguru	is there a way to have lein download functions to use or require in the repl?
01:38	dsrguru	*download code containing functions I want to use ...
01:48	ro_st	download from where?
01:48	dsrguru	from their repositories
01:49	ro_st	from git?
01:49	technomancy	dsrguru: pomegranate does that
01:49	dsrguru	as in, have lein do its magic from the repl
01:50	dsrguru	technomancy: I just did a brief google, but pomegranate's main functionality seems to be add-classpath, which I don't think is what I'm looking for
01:51	dsrguru	technomancy: I'm trying to find a way to have lein pull .clj files from wherever lein normally does, but from within the repl
01:51	technomancy	sure; that's exactly what pomegranate's add-classpath does
01:51	dsrguru	oh really?
01:51	dsrguru	oh I see
01:51	dsrguru	technomancy: thanks so much
01:53	dsrguru	technomancy: but I have a bit of a chicken/egg problem--how do I load pomegranate from the repl to begin with? XD I'm not running this from within a project where I could add pomegranate to the project.clj
01:55	technomancy	you could add pomegranate in your user profile
01:55	ro_st	or just paste the source of pomegranate into the repl
01:55	dsrguru	ro_st: ^_^
01:55	ro_st	(hopefully it ain't too much)
01:55	dsrguru	technomancy: is a user.clj the same structure as a project.clj?
01:56	dsrguru	ro_st: what if it depends on other libraries? =O
01:56	ro_st	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/PROFILES.md
01:56	technomancy	yeah, or `lein help profiles`
01:56	dsrguru	neither actually contains the text "user.clj" or anything.clj besides profiles.clj for that matter
01:56	ro_st	technomancy: curious about using MD for the help text. is there some way to get plain-plain text, or is it just because you re-used the github content?
01:57	dsrguru	oh it's just ~/.lein/profiles.clj
01:57	dsrguru	got it
01:57	technomancy	ro_st: no way to get plain text, no
01:57	technomancy	it'd be lossy; I think even if it's a bit ugly in places having the URLs is an overall win
01:58	ro_st	true
01:58	ro_st	i've been piping it to Mou anyways
01:58	ro_st	http://mouapp.com/
02:02	xumingmingv	,(meta pos?)
02:02	clojurebot	nil
02:02	xumingmingv	why (meta pos?) is nil? shouldn't it has some metadata such as :added and :inline?
02:02	xumingmingv	,(source pos?)
02:02	clojurebot	Source not found
02:02	ro_st	&(source pos?)
02:02	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
02:03	dakrone	,(meta #'pos?)
02:03	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name pos?, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 1183, :arglists ([x]), ...}
02:05	dakrone	xumingmingv: you want metadata on the var itself, not the value
02:05	xumingmingv	thanks dakrone
02:06	dsrguru	technomancy: thank you so much, pomegranate is exactly what I needed
02:14	ro_st	does sorted-set return a set that automatically sorts itself when ever more stuff is added?
02:14	ro_st	or does it just do a one time sort
02:15	ro_st	i guess that's a misnomer, because you can't add stuff to a set, it's immutable :)
02:16	ro_st	so i'd have to use sorted-set whenever i want a fresh one with something added
02:17	ro_st	huh. looks like the sorting is kept even when i conj
04:44	stefi	ciao
04:44	stefi	!list
05:42	augustl	why does .clj files have to use underscores in order to be found? Artifacts of the jvm classloader stuff?
05:56	raek	augustl: I think it has to do with the names of the classes that clojure emmits
05:57	raek	class names can not have hyphens in them
05:57	augustl	raek: ah I see
06:07	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
06:07	hcumberdale	How to provide webservices from clojure?
06:13	augustl	will keywords always stay in memory once they're used, similar to Ruby symbols?
06:14	augustl	in Ruby, it's unsafe to use keywords for user input (like query strings), for example, as that gives users the ability to make the ruby process go out of memory
06:14	augustl	s/keywords/symbols/
06:15	Guest60085	augustl: afair symbols are interned like strings
06:18	hcumberdale	can't find a solution
06:18	hcumberdale	http://blog.japila.pl/2011/02/learning-clojure-and-jax-ws-at-once-clojure-supports-annotations-but-jax-ws-doesnt-like-it/
06:18	hcumberdale	only people trying it without success
06:23	Guest60085	hcumberdale: if you find no clojure lib, search a java lib for webservices that does not need annotations to work
06:25	hcumberdale	Guest60085 there is clj-soap
06:26	hcumberdale	It uses Axis2 and the implementation is from 2011
06:26	Guest60085	Guest60085?
06:26	hcumberdale	Once you tried axis2, you'll likely never touch it again
06:27	Guest60085	because of configuration stuff? or runtime performance/quality?
06:28	hcumberdale	Guest60085 yes
06:28	hcumberdale	Everything!
06:28	Guest60085	humm, am I displayed as guest?
06:28	hcumberdale	Starting with how webservices can be developed. There is no clear way
06:28	hcumberdale	Guest60085 << yes?!
06:29	hcumberdale	~clgv@saturn.informatik.uni-ulm.de
06:29	clojurebot	Huh?
06:29	Guest60085	strange my client tells me different and had no auth problems
06:29	hcumberdale	I'm using MIRC,... strange
06:29	hcumberdale	AXIS is jut not simple
06:30	Guest60085	but if clj-soap does a good wrapper job, it could be simple with this lib. did you try it?
06:30	hcumberdale	But their homepage is crazy fast
06:30	hcumberdale	No, not yet. Sure I will
06:31	hcumberdale	It is crazy that this is the only one lib
06:31	hcumberdale	And it is not 100% clojure ;(
06:31	hcumberdale	Wrap axis2 sounds not nice, cause there are so many ways how to deal with axis2
06:31	Guest60085	well, maybe the soap hype is over ;)
06:32	hcumberdale	I think soap is a good thing
06:32	Guest60085	honestly, it has only one small source file, so I doubt there is much comfort built-in
06:32	hcumberdale	but it is a bit complex. All the specifications (Assured delivery, security,...)
06:33	hcumberdale	It seems it is way too abstract.
06:34	hcumberdale	Hardcoded casting of objects,... no byte[] handling
06:34	hcumberdale	And damn no MTOM support
06:34	Guest60085	do you need soap specifically?
06:34	hcumberdale	yes!
06:34	hcumberdale	Cause part of my job is standard software integration
06:34	hcumberdale	they rely on soap
06:35	Guest60085	you could use your favorite java lib
06:35	Guest60085	and maybe build a clojure wrapper-layer if it is worth it
06:36	hcumberdale	Yeah, but I have no favourite java lib
06:36	Guest60085	then one that gets the job done ;)
06:36	hcumberdale	It is like selecting bad or worse :)
06:37	hcumberdale	Services and POX seem to work pretty well with clojure
06:37	Guest60085	well, then you can only start with the specification and build a 100% clojure solution ;)
06:37	hcumberdale	but POX is missing binary attachments and so on
06:37	hcumberdale	Guest60085, that will be the best possible
06:37	Guest60085	but a lot of work, I assume
06:38	hcumberdale	yes that is what i'm affraid of
06:38	Guest60085	probably the spec has 300+ pages? ;)
06:38	hcumberdale	It is possible to run axis2 standalone, in a server as a servlet, as a embedded service (war),...
06:38	hcumberdale	Guest60085 I think more
06:38	hcumberdale	the most implementations are not 100% compatible
06:39	hcumberdale	that's the pain of the companies using all the webservice stuff
06:40	hcumberdale	Guest60085, ever worked with generated objects from a design model in java?
06:41	Guest60085	nope. tried that in a different environment, though
06:42	hcumberdale	Webservices in java work in common with a contract (WSD)
06:42	hcumberdale	and the frameworks are generating java pojos from that contract or a contract from java pojos
06:42	hcumberdale	wsdl2java.exe java2wsdl.exe
06:43	hcumberdale	It is insane what kind of bullshit is coming out of the code generators
06:43	hcumberdale	but it works
06:43	hcumberdale	And it's part of your code (you have to maintain)
07:11	augustl	I have an app that depends on a mongodb helper library. Is there a way to make hy app use my local file system version of the library, so I can integration test without deploying a new version of the mongodb helper?
07:11	augustl	this is a leiningen question I guess
07:11	augustl	not going to check this local file system dependency into git, it's just temporarily before I push
07:13	Bronsa	ls
07:13	Bronsa	ops.
07:25	tomoj	augustl: you know about "checkouts"?
07:26	tomoj	I think you can just `mkdir -p checkouts && ln -s /path/to/your/local/project checkouts/project`
07:27	tomoj	leave the dependency in project.clj
08:51	augustl	tomoj: ah, I'll try that, thanks
09:20	gtrak	duck1123: I managed to get the swank in java-app working pretty trivially, now I'm trying to see what it would take to proxy every spring bean in the app
09:20	duck1123	cool
09:20	duck1123	I didn't even bother to try that over the weekend
09:21	gtrak	https://gist.github.com/3122677
09:21	gtrak	I think it'd be fun to wrap every bean in clojure somehow
09:21	gtrak	though probably totally useless
09:21	gtrak	spring has methods to generate a union interface of a list of interfaces from a class
09:22	gtrak	and a AOP post-processor
09:23	gtrak	I could totally abuse AOP
09:25	gtrak	not terribly useful since IDE's have hot code-reloading, but could be fun
09:54	augustl	after http://pastie.org/4266135 I still get "com.fasterxml.jackson.core.JsonGenerationException: Cannot JSON encode object of class: class org.bson.types.ObjectId" - any ideas why?
09:56	augustl	I do a println the line before I add it and I see it print when running my tests so I'm pretty sure it's hooked up correctly ;)
09:57	duck1123	It doesn't know how to turn a object id into json
09:57	duck1123	nvm
09:59	augustl	oh you seem to need to use the "encode" from the "custom" namespace
10:00	wingy	in a file i am using "ns" and i required a namespace :as another alias .. i run that file from the repl..switching to that namespace but i cant access the namespace via the :as alias
10:00	wingy	is there a way to do that? so i can interact with that namespace from the repl instead of from the file
10:00	Guest60085	wingy: in "lein repl" ?
10:00	wingy	Guest60085: yeah
10:01	Guest60085	wingy: how did you switch?
10:01	wingy	in-ns
10:01	wingy	the def vars i defined in that file worked
10:01	wingy	but the ns :require lib :as lib-alias didn't work
10:01	wingy	i mean i cant access it from the repl
10:01	wingy	only from the file
10:02	Guest60085	try (require 'that.ns.you.were.talking.about) and then (in-ns 'that.ns.you.were.talking.about)
10:05	wingy	here is an example about what im talking about: https://gist.github.com/3122894
10:05	ro_st	wingy, what Guest said
10:06	ro_st	(in-ns doesn't trigger the target ns's require/use statements
10:06	augustl	are there any generic ways of deep-mapping any sort of collection so that all keys or values matching a predicate gets filtered through a function?
10:06	ro_st	augustl: clojure.walk
10:06	augustl	want to .toString all ObjectId instances in maps
10:06	augustl	ro_st: looking it up, thanks
10:06	Guest60085	augustl: tree-seq might be an option as well
10:06	ro_st	look at keywordize-keys for nice reference code
10:07	wingy	ro_st: yeah but now i used "ns" from the repl but it still doesn't work
10:07	ro_st	do a require of the aliased namespace, then a require of the target namespace, then in-ns the target namespace
10:07	wingy	the test file i ran with this could access the symbols without problems .. i wonder why i cant access them from the repl
10:07	Guest60085	wingy: "yi" cannot be resolved since it is only an alias. try to call a function with yi
10:07	ro_st	you could try inspecting the value of your alias in the repl as well
10:09	duck1123	does in-ns-ing into a non-existant ns still mess everything up?
10:09	wingy	Guest60085: oh right .. yi is a namespace :P
10:09	Guest60085	wingy: that worked (ns blubb (:require [clojure.string :as s])) s/replace
10:09	Guest60085	wingy: no! yi is an alias to a namespace
10:09	duck1123	I remember at one time, if you did this than you dodn't even have clojure.core
10:09	Guest60085	duck1123: exactly
10:10	ro_st	duck, afaik the ns form does in-ns internally?
10:10	ro_st	yup
10:10	wingy	Guest60085: yeah to yobistore.core .. and typing yobistore.core yields the same problem since it's not a symbol .. anyway .. i get it now .. i accessed the vars in it and it works now
10:10	timmc	&(macroexpand-1 '(ns foo))
10:10	lazybot	⇒ (do (clojure.core/in-ns (quote foo)) (clojure.core/with-loading-context (clojure.core/refer (quote clojure.core))))
10:10	wingy	thx for the help
10:11	duck1123	I was asking because he was in the ns before hand. (because of previous testing, no doubt)
10:11	ro_st	in-ns should be idempotent? make it if it aint there, otherwise just switch?
10:12	duck1123	well, looking at that expand, there really isn't much "making" the ns, just making sure that clojure is also referred
10:14	ro_st	,(doc 'in-ns)
10:14	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol>
10:14	ro_st	,(doc in-ns)
10:14	clojurebot	"([name]); Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed."
10:14	Guest60085	duck1123: especially not loading an ns with the same name from classpath ;)
10:16	duck1123	(doto 'the.ns.inquestion require in-ns) is always handy
10:16	augustl	oh my, postwalk is brilliant :O
10:17	ro_st	duck1123: clever!
10:21	wingy	i know a great feature for lein repl
10:21	wingy	() matching
10:21	gtrak`	augustl: tree-seq?
10:22	wingy	so when i type ( it will give me () with the cursor in between
10:22	ro_st	wingy: emacs slime repl with paredit :)
10:22	wingy	that would save us a lot of times
10:22	wingy	ro_st: but does that work in repl mode?
10:22	ro_st	i have full code completion and paredit and rainbow parens in my repl
10:22	ro_st	source and doc lookup too
10:22	wingy	oh
10:22	wingy	are you new to emacs?
10:23	duck1123	wingy: it does, but IMHO it's more pain than it's worth
10:23	wingy	i guess i should give emacs a try
10:23	ro_st	quite new, yes
10:23	wingy	duck1123: why?
10:23	ro_st	swore like a trooper for the first week. all good, now
10:23	wingy	:)
10:23	duck1123	since enter in slime submits when you have matching parens, you can't enter a newline without accidentally submitting
10:23	wingy	ro_st: you got good tutorials?
10:24	wingy	i guess that emacs is a better fit then vim for clojure?
10:24	duck1123	I love paredit, but everytime I turn it on in the repl, I get annoyed and turn it back off
10:24	ro_st	wingy, the emacs peepcode is good
10:24	scriptor	wingy: emacs has way better tool support for clojure, yes
10:24	ro_st	as for clojure in emacs, https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
10:25	scriptor	also much more clojure+emacs documentation around
10:25	ro_st	the cheatsheet halfway down the page
10:25	ro_st	write it out and make the effort to use them
10:25	ro_st	also http://emacswiki.org/emacs/PareditCheatsheet
10:26	ro_st	some utterly indispensible ones that aren't on there: C-M-space to select entire form, and C-M-k to select-and-cut entire form
10:26	ro_st	good luck, and apologies in advance -grin-
10:26	ro_st	my uptodate emacs config https://github.com/robert-stuttaford/.emacs.d
10:27	ro_st	includes symbol highlighting, where if you rest on a symbol it'll highlight all the occurences in the buffer. super useful when refactoring
10:28	ro_st	in my config, f11 opens the custom keybindings config file and f12 opens the main custom config file, where i set colour and fonts etc
10:28	ro_st	so you can see what i've added
10:28	wingy	oh emacs was already installed
10:29	wingy	emacs is written in common lisp?
10:29	ro_st	in emacs lisp
10:29	timmc	and C, probably
10:29	duck1123	F12 is hardwired into my brain for drop-down terminal now.
10:29	ro_st	i have iterm fullscreen on monitor 2
10:29	ro_st	bound to cmd-shift-` at the OS level
10:32	wingy	but when light table is coming out will you switch to it or still use emacs?
10:33	ro_st	emacs for sure
10:33	ro_st	with the paredit editing shortcuts, all the bracket hopscotchery just melts away
10:34	ro_st	also, midje-mode
10:36	ro_st	https://www.shortcutfoo.com/app/tutorial/emacs
10:37	wingy	great link
10:37	wingy	also there is a internal tutorial in emacs
10:37	wingy	i love such tutorials
10:37	ro_st	yeah
10:37	ro_st	you can also C-h f clojure-mode
10:37	timmc	wingy: http://www.brainonfire.net/blog/emacs-n00b-start/
10:37	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
10:38	TimMc	clojurebot: Hush.
10:38	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
10:38	vijaykiran	wingy: The first thing to try will be C-h t in emacs - in built tutorial
10:44	wingy	a little bit uncomfortable fingerposition to hit the CTRL all the time
10:45	wingy	which finger do you use to press CTRL and ALT?
10:45	vijaykiran	I swap Ctrl - Capslock
10:45	wingy	how?
10:45	clojurebot	with style and grace
10:45	wingy	what?
10:45	clojurebot	what is short for ,(doc ...)
10:45	vijaykiran	and for Alt - (C-x m) is mapped to Alt-x for looking up other commands
10:46	vijaykiran	wingy: on Mac, you can just change the keys in system settings
10:46	gtrak`	isn't the fastest math stuff in fortran anyway?
10:47	wingy	vijaykiran: yeah it worked
10:47	wingy	and you others .. which finger do you use for CTRL and ALT
10:52	wingy	hmm my ALT+v gives me a character
10:54	wingy	ok now it works .. i changed what it meant in iTerm
10:54	wingy	you have to have it meaning ESC
10:54	wingy	for soem reason
10:55	Guest60085	clojurebot: botsnack
10:55	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
10:55	llasram	I use a Kinesis keyboard and have the big left thumb keys which are typically Backspace and Delete mapped to Control and Meta
10:56	llasram	It's a little sub-optimal using the same hand for pressing the modifiers every time, but since it's the thumb and doesn't need to move very far, it isn't too bad
10:57	TimMc	obligatory foot-pedal remark
10:57	llasram	Yeah -- still need to give that a try :-)
10:58	wingy	seriously
10:58	ro_st	i'm on a mac, but i use an MS ergo 4000. i made the alt key trigger Cmd, and the win key trigger Alt (or meta). so i can cmd with my left thumb. then i made caps lock trigger Alt
10:58	wingy	that would be way better than having to press CTRL and ALT
10:59	ro_st	pinky on ctrl, ring-finger on caps, thumb on cmd. feels natural
10:59	wingy	ro_st: is there a win key on mac
10:59	ro_st	ya, the Command key
10:59	uvtc	Using Emacs on a Mac was a pain for me due to that Cmd/clover key. Seems much easier on GNU/Linux where, for the most part, there's just ctrl and alt.
11:00	gtrak	i like my little leopold KB: http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,tenkeyless&pid=fc200rtab
11:00	ro_st	i'm using mac emacs, which supports cmd c/v/x for copy paste cut
11:00	ro_st	i also have find-file-in-project mapped to cmd-t, like textmate
11:00	wingy	ro_st: isnt CMD reserved for other things
11:00	wingy	in iTerm
11:01	ro_st	it's not quite the same as textmate's fuzzy, but it's close enough
11:01	ro_st	i dont emacs inside a terminal
11:01	ro_st	i use this http://emacsformacosx.com/
11:01	wingy	wow looks cool
11:01	ro_st	with this, i can have emacs put windows on multiple monitors
11:01	sh10151	is there an idiomatic way to guard against closing out when using with-open and writer from clojure.java.io ?
11:01	uvtc	I meant that, in Emacs, you're using ctrl and alt all the time, but in mac-land you're using Cmd, and I didn't have any spare room on my keyboard to map Cmd to.
11:01	sh10151	or really, any already open stream
11:01	ro_st	so i've got 4 buffers open and visible at 120 characters wide
11:02	sh10151	i'd like to use with-open liberally but i don't want to close streams that are already opened by calling code, like out
11:03	kreig1	sh10151: hmm, why would with-open end up closing out?
11:03	sh10151	i think it closes anything?
11:03	kreig1	sh10151: no, it closes what you give it
11:03	ro_st	which is great for having a code file, a midje file, a repl, and stuff like compilation output and whatnot visible all at once
11:03	sh10151	right, so I want to use with-open and reader
11:03	sh10151	so if someone wants to they can pass a filename
11:04	sh10151	or an open stream
11:04	sh10151	or a URL
11:04	sh10151	the trouble is guarding against the open stream case
11:04	kreig1	sh10151: if they pass you an open stream, assume they are gonna take care of closing it
11:04	kreig1	sh10151: don't be closing my stream that I pass in, wether it's out or not
11:04	sh10151	right, so I have to special case and only use with-open if they don't pass a stream
11:04	sh10151	i was wondering if there is an idiomatic way to do that
11:05	sh10151	also it seems like something that might be nice to take care of in the macro
11:05	sh10151	confusing that with-open takes stream arguments and yet misuses them
11:05	wingy	ro_st: i wonder if using that one is better than the terminal one
11:06	kreig1	sh10151: well, proly cause some streams are a little mroe involved to create
11:07	kreig1	so I want the operation to work on a stream too, even if I have to write some kind of complicated constructor, like for a video transcoding stream or whatever
11:07	TimMc	sh10151: Don
11:08	ro_st	wingy: for me, it certainly is
11:08	TimMc	sh10151: Don't use with-open, then. Get a stream for whatever it is, write to it, and done.
11:08	wingy	ro_st but i lose the ability to run emacs in ssh session
11:09	ro_st	only if you ssh into that mac from elsewhere
11:09	sh10151	TimMc: that's what reader is doing in all cases but when an already-open stream is passed in
11:09	ro_st	is that what you're doing?
11:09	wingy	yepp
11:10	wingy	no but i could use emacs instead of vim to edit remote files
11:10	ro_st	wingy: i'm not sure which parts of my config require the full ui. haven't bothered to check. pretty sure you get most of it though
11:10	llasram	wingy: Actually, you don't, or at least shouldn't if the backing Emacs version is up-to-date. If there's a running Emacs version, you can do `emacsclient -t` to create a new Emacs terminal frame backed by the existing Emacs process
11:10	ro_st	ah, but that's emacs on a remote host, not the local emacs
11:10	ro_st	(inc llasram)
11:10	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:10	TimMc	sh10151: with-open doesn't know anything about streams.
11:10	ro_st	that's very cool!
11:10	wingy	llasram: i see
11:10	duck1123	I find this alias helpful. alias ed='emacsclient -c -n -a ""'
11:11	duck1123	starts a server if emacs isn't running, connects otherwise
11:11	wingy	i heard that emacs is not an editor. it's an operating system
11:11	sh10151	TimMc: fair enough, my criticism is more directed toward clojure.java.io/writer I suppose
11:11	TimMc	duck1123: I couldn't have that alias without thinking ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR every time.
11:12	sh10151	TimMc: it allows OutputStream/Writer parameters and the docs say "should be used inside with-open," but it doesn't guard against closing that stream
11:12	duck1123	I have run into that, but that was what the guy I copied it from had.
11:13	TimMc	sh10151: Ah, you want a close-shield.
11:13	kreig1	sh10151: yah, because sometimes if it didn't how would it work with compound streams and shit, like say, zip compression streams 8)
11:13	kreig1	sh10151: aka, things that are not magically construted by the cojure.java.io funcs
11:13	sh10151	I'd think that writer would not close things that it didn't open
11:14	kreig1	with-open is not opening anything
11:14	kreig1	it's always being given a reader
11:14	sh10151	I understand that now
11:14	llasram	I have wondered why it isn't called with-close instead...
11:14	TimMc	heh
11:14	kreig1	sh10151: indeed
11:14	sh10151	Or rather, I understand that it's reader/writer that I am concerned about
11:14	llasram	`with-closing` maybe?
11:14	kreig1	cause that's all it does 8)
11:14	sh10151	because it wraps the streams and writers without guarding against closes on the wrapper
11:14	nDuff	Has anyone poked at using one.test outside a ClojureScript One environment?
11:15	kreig1	yah, it's named as a throwback to a lisp func, but then got lobotomized in the proper clojure style and never had the name fixed
11:15	kreig1	that's my guess 8)
11:16	sh10151	so given that clojure.java.io/writer won't change
11:16	ro_st	wingy: and lisp isn't a programming language, it's a building material :-)
11:16	sh10151	what's an idiomatic way to guard these streams in my code, given that right now I am just delegating all of the logic of parameter parsing to reader/writer
11:17	kreig1	you need to see if you are being given a stream
11:17	kreig1	if so, set a bool
11:17	sh10151	um no
11:18	sh10151	how about an if either returning the writer in with-open or the original stream
11:18	sh10151	but at this point I'm just doing some kind of with-open-writer
11:18	ro_st	sh10151: wrap in a (cond stream? (do (work) (close thing)) :else (work)
11:18	kreig1	(let [close-sheild (class Reader arg) input (clojure.java.io.reader arg) ] (do (try (my shit) (finally (when close-sheild (.close input))
11:18	llasram	sh10151: You could have a function which accepts a writer/stream, generates a writer as necessary, then wraps that writer in a `proxy` which implements Writer and forwards everything but `.close` ?
11:19	sh10151	OK so the sense I'm getting is that there isn't an idiomatic way
11:19	kreig1	llasram: really?
11:19	sh10151	:-D
11:19	kreig1	llsaram just so it works with a macro?
11:19	kreig1	idiomatic?
11:19	llasram	kreig1: So it solves the general problem of wanting to pass off a writer to be something and be certain that recipient won't close it
11:20	TimMc	That's called a close-shield.
11:20	sh10151	well, the general problem I am trying to solve is that clojure.java.io/writer does almost everything I need except in the case of being passed an OutputStream or Writer
11:20	llasram	TimMc: Cool! Does it exist already somewhere?
11:21	sh10151	or rather, the combination of with-open and writer
11:21	kreig1	sh10151: have you read the with-open macro?
11:21	sh10151	yes
11:21	TimMc	llasram: org.apache.commons.io.output.CloseShieldOutputStream :-/
11:21	kreig1	sh10151: so why not just have your own try finally clause that knows if the input arg was supposed to be closed by you or not
11:22	TimMc	Can't be hard to implement.
11:22	TimMc	Sounds like sh10151 never wants to close streams.
11:22	sh10151	because that is just going to be a specialization of the writer/with-open combination that doesn't use with-open in the case of a stream
11:22	TimMc	and wants to prevent callees from doing so as well.
11:23	kreig1	TimMc: not impression I got
11:23	kreig1	sh10151: and what is wrong with that when it caries out the rather specific contract you want to present to the user?
11:23	llasram	TimMc: Awesome! V useful to know
11:23	kreig1	if you give me a filename, or a URL, I will read from it and close it, if you give me a stream, I'll read, but not close it
11:23	sh10151	in the context where I am using writer, I don't want anyone to close streams that were passed to writer
11:23	sh10151	so TimMc is right
11:24	kreig1	ah, ok, so you don't want them closing it outside of your func either?
11:24	sh10151	kreig1: but clojure.java.io/writer doesn't follow that rule
11:24	sh10151	kreig1: which is my whole point :)
11:24	kreig1	what rule?
11:24	kreig1	clojure.java.io does shit about closing
11:24	sh10151	"if you give me a filename, or a URL, I will read from it and close
11:24	sh10151	it, if you give me a stream, I'll read, but not close it"
11:24	kreig1	I don't understand how it cannot follow a rule about closing 8)
11:24	sh10151	yes it does
11:24	sh10151	it allows you to close the streams it creates from streams
11:25	sh10151	and close on those streams closes the underlying streams
11:25	sh10151	so it does do shit about closing
11:25	kreig1	sure it ALLOWS you to close it
11:25	sh10151	not only does it allow you to close the streams it returns
11:25	sh10151	but that closes whatever stream it was passed
11:25	sh10151	which is counter to the advice "use with-open" in its docstring
11:25	kreig1	tht's a function of java streams if I recall
11:26	kreig1	aka, that's how streams work in java
11:26	kreig1	I could be wrong on that tho, been two years since I did raw java
11:26	llasram	sh10151: To be fair, in the Java I/O library/ies, I think that's usually what you want. You'll create a stack of writers on top of a stack of streams and then want to forget it's anything but a singular entity
11:28	kreig1	if you don't want your func to close the stream, don't call .close on it
11:28	sh10151	All right. So really what we have here is a documentation bug?
11:28	kreig1	there is no bug
11:28	sh10151	the docs for writer/reader shouldn't even mention with-open
11:29	kreig1	you want with-open to work in some context where you are trying to provide a specific contract to those who pass in some generating output argument
11:29	kreig1	go polish a turd somewhere else 8)
11:29	kreig1	there are many in clojure 8)
11:29	duck1123	in most (all?) of the cases where they show with-open, they create the reader right there
11:29	kreig1	sorry, that's how I refer to my own fixations on things like that, no personal jie meant 8)
11:29	sproc	Are there any built-in functions for converting a Java array into a vector or list?
11:30	sh10151	duck1123: yes, and that doesn't work if you say, pass out as the argument to reader
11:30	sh10151	er writer
11:30	sh10151	:-P
11:30	sh10151	or rather, calling code passes you out
11:30	kreig1	sure it does
11:30	kreig1	it just doesn't do what you want it to 8)
11:30	cmiles74	sproc: You can pass a Java array to vec.
11:31	kreig1	if I'm writing a script and want to make sure things get flushed out, it would be doing the write thing 8)
11:31	cmiles74	& (vec (into-array ["hi" "bye"]))
11:31	lazybot	⇒ ["hi" "bye"]
11:31	TimMc	cmiles74, sproc: Note that the resulting vec is mutable if someone has access to that array.
11:32	cmiles74	TimMc: That I did not knwo.
11:32	duck1123	nDuff: Midje in cljs? You can find the time. :)
11:32	TimMc	&(let [a (into-array (range 5)) v (vec a)] (aset a 0 17) (get v 0))
11:32	lazybot	⇒ 17
11:33	TimMc	If you're given an array to turn into a vec, best to pour it into a new one.
11:33	TimMc	&(let [a (into-array (range 5)) v (into [] a)] (aset a 0 17) (get v 0))
11:33	lazybot	⇒ 0
11:33	kreig1	&(true)
11:33	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
11:34	sproc	Thanks cmiles74 and TimMc, that was exactly what I needed.
11:34	kreig1	well, neither could let!
11:34	TimMc	...but if you created that array yourself and do not allow anyone else access to it, vec is fine.
11:35	TimMc	kreig1: IFn was the compiler's last attempt at making sense of the head position there.
11:35	kreig1	TimMc: I know 8)
11:36	pandeiro	can anyone tell me what i need to do to get clojure-jack-in to work again after upgrading to lein2?
11:36	kreig1	pandeiro: add this to your ~/.lein/profiles.clj
11:37	kreig1	{:user {:plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.4"]
11:37	kreig1	[lein-cljsbuild "0.2.4"]
11:37	kreig1	]}}
11:37	kreig1	err, you can drop the lein-cljsbuild bit, sorry
11:37	kreig1	in lein2 such plugins are installed at the "user" level
11:37	pandeiro	kreig1: no that's great i use it, too - but can i just put it there and avoid having to list it in projects?
11:37	kreig1	yup
11:37	pandeiro	(ie, will lein only grab it if there's a cljsbuild key in the project?)
11:38	kreig1	no clue
11:38	kreig1	you still have to define hooks and stuff I assume
11:38	kreig1	it might show up in the help listing etc...
11:38	pandeiro	yeah but i guess the costs are minimal once it's already in my local .m2
11:38	kreig1	yah, only about 500g of disk space, three JVMs, and a Net4.0 runtime
11:39	pandeiro	for cljsbuild? that's reasonable
11:42	nestastubbs	hardest part of clojure so far is unlearning all my Common Lispism
11:42	nestastubbs	I went and wrote a CLIM-like presentation-type system
11:43	nestastubbs	and then realized it was so delicate and enterprisey it was not worth the trouble over a couple of multi methods
11:43	Hodapp	gaaah enterprise
11:44	pandeiro	nestastubbs: my repl's back; thanks
11:44	Hodapp	enterprise has too much become synonymous in my head with "when this shit fails, you have NO chance of comprehending why"
11:44	TimMc	$inc Hodapp
11:44	lazybot	⇒ 1
11:44	Hodapp	bah?
11:45	TimMc	Karma points. :-)
11:49	uvtc	When using Compojure, how can I try out (in the repl) the routes individually?
11:49	uvtc	Is there any easy way to do that?
11:50	nestastubbs	uvtc: to invoke a page programmatically?
11:50	nestastubbs	or to give it a url and have ittell you which route would be fired?
11:51	uvtc	I've got `(cc/defroutes app* (cc/GET "..." ...) (cc/GET ...) etc.`. I want to programmatically --- and from the repl --- try those "handlers" out...
11:51	ro_st	i made this fn uvtc:
11:51	uvtc	Not the "top-level" handler ("app*"), but the individual ones within it.
11:51	pandeiro	what's the best way to do str manip on keywords? just do (name ...) and manip then go back to (keyword ...)?
11:52	nestastubbs	pandeiro: that's how I do it
11:52	nestastubbs	curious as to what your output is tho
11:52	nestastubbs	aka, what kind of munging you are doing
11:52	nestastubbs	at most I am upcasing, or adding a prefix/suffix (rarely)
11:52	pandeiro	nestastubbs: trying to modify hiccup vectors on the fly
11:52	pandeiro	add classes etc
11:53	ro_st	uvtc: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3629
11:53	TimMc	Yeah, usually string manipulation on keywords means you shouldn't be using keywords. :-)
11:53	nestastubbs	pandeiro: ah, how about just adding/modding the attrbute map?
11:53	ro_st	used from the repl, within the ns that defines it. usually the one that defines app*
11:53	nestastubbs	pandeiro: this is something I am interested in a general solution for 8)
11:54	nestastubbs	pandeiro: but I can't recall if the class attribute in the map overrides all classes in the keyword form
11:54	pandeiro	TimMc: nestastubbs: hmm, hadn't thought about just trying to add a {:class "foo"} to the vector... (won't that override any existing classes?)
11:54	pandeiro	yah
11:54	ro_st	is there another way other than (name) … (keyword)?
11:54	nestastubbs	pandeiro: it might append
11:54	nestastubbs	I don't have a repl handy to test that
11:54	pandeiro	overrides
11:55	nestastubbs	damn
11:55	nestastubbs	pandeiro: I actually thinkg that id and class attributes should merge there
11:55	nestastubbs	I beelive that's how such things work in say, HAML
11:55	pandeiro	yeah would be nice
11:55	nestastubbs	well, fork hiccup 8)
11:55	pandeiro	so i just need to destructure from the keyword
11:55	pandeiro	that should be an easy fn
11:55	pandeiro	i can probably steal some of hiccup's own internals
11:55	uvtc	ro_st: Thanks. Looking at your example...
11:56	nestastubbs	let's cahnge hiccup to do that
11:56	nestastubbs	cause that's what I want it to do too 8)
11:56	pandeiro	nestastubbs: yeah seems like a more common use case to me
11:56	pandeiro	but i'm sure some people are relying on the current behavior
11:56	nestastubbs	any other hiccup users have a opinion on this?
11:56	ro_st	uvtc: ymmv. written by a newbie. works for me, though. and yes, it does trigger the top level app fn.
11:57	uvtc	Ok. Each of those lines in my defroutes evaluates to a function ... `(cc/GET "/" request "Welcome!")` gives me a function. I suppose Compojure calls that function with the request map.
11:57	pandeiro	would it be idiomatic for hiccup to maybe have a merge-attrs that could be set?
11:58	ro_st	yeah
11:58	nestastubbs	pandeiro: hmm
11:58	ro_st	in my case, my api methods are returning a hash with :body set
11:58	ro_st	so that my json-response middleware can generate json appropriately
11:59	pandeiro	nestastubbs: i dunno if libs do that the same way clojure.core does? is that common?
11:59	wingy	i dont think im the emacs guy
11:59	wingy	the arrow keys is like WTF
11:59	ro_st	what's the prob, wingy? you can do it
11:59	uvtc	ro_st: I don't know what you mean by "api methods" in the context of a compojure webapp.
11:59	ro_st	uvtc: i'm using compojure to write a json rest api
11:59	ro_st	so, in my case, all my routes are api methods
11:59	wingy	i just dont get why that is helpful to navigate with weird arrow keys
11:59	ro_st	sorry for the confuzz
12:00	uvtc	ro_st: Oh, I see. Thanks.
12:00	uvtc	ro_st: The api of your web service. :)
12:00	wingy	why p b f n
12:01	ro_st	oui
12:01	uvtc	wingy: next/previous, forward/back.
12:01	uvtc	n/p, f/b
12:01	nestastubbs	pandeiro: hiccup/core.clj:76
12:01	ro_st	wingy, remember, emacs is old
12:01	nestastubbs	that is the line that would need ot change
12:01	wingy	uvtc: ok that makes more sense now
12:01	nestastubbs	it's just merging the parse of the keyword with the attr map
12:02	nestastubbs	pandeiro: and since the attrs come last, they override
12:03	pandeiro	nestastubbs: what hiccup u lookin at?
12:03	pandeiro	old school?
12:03	nestastubbs	ouch, 0.3.7
12:03	nestastubbs	sheeeit
12:03	nestastubbs	I suppose I should update, what is latest?
12:03	pandeiro	get off my lawn style
12:03	pandeiro	1.0.0-beta1?
12:03	nestastubbs	oh, any big changes?
12:03	nestastubbs	will it fuck me if I upgrade a week before deploying a 20k line app 8^)
12:04	pandeiro	nestastubbs: huge re-arrangement of ns
12:04	pandeiro	hiccup.core is 17 lines long now
12:05	jsabeaudry	Firebug is angry when I check if myvar is defined using (when js/myvar ...), what other method can I use?
12:06	nestastubbs	you types tht into firebug?
12:06	nestastubbs	firebug cannot compile clojurescript
12:06	nestastubbs	you want to start a clojurescript repl
12:07	nestastubbs	and then tell your browser to connect to i
12:07	nestastubbs	pandeiro: going thru commit logs now
12:07	jsabeaudry	nestastubbs, nah it gets translated to cljs.core.truth_(myvar), which firebug complains about because myvar is undefined
12:08	jsabeaudry	perhaps a more appropriated question is how to check for undefined vars in cljs
12:08	nestastubbs	jsabeaudry: ok, sorry, didn't mean to be pedantic about that, it's just cljs can be confuzzing
12:09	nestastubbs	jsabeaudry: how about (.typeof js/myvar)
12:10	wingy	ro_st: ok . still in emacs .. phew .. the movements kinda makese sense after all :)
12:10	uvtc	cemerick: In the CP-or book, url-shortener example (p.537), a Ref was used for `mappings`. My understanding was that you use refs for times when there's more than one of them, and changes need to be coordinated. Why use a Ref there instead of an atom? Was it because you check it for the given key before altering it?
12:10	nestastubbs	see fi that gives you "undefined"
12:10	ro_st	wingy: C-a and C-e was my bugbear. so used to home/end keys to move to begin/end of line
12:11	ro_st	wingy: try C-M-space somewhere. keep pressing it. you'll see it selects forms, always keeping the selection balanced on brackets
12:13	nestastubbs	jsabeaudry: luck?
12:13	jsabeaudry	nestastubbs, not on himera, will try directly in code
12:13	ro_st	gclosure has goog.isDefAndNotNull(); as the catch-all way to ensure a variable is good or not. not sure if cljs wraps it internally
12:32	technomancy	http://axisofeval.blogspot.com.es/2012/07/when-i-see-that-new-language-makes.html
12:33	wink	awesome gifs :)
12:36	wink	doesn't beat http://runningastartup.tumblr.com/ though
12:37	technomancy	there's more though: http://axisofeval.blogspot.com.es/search/label/thispltlife
12:42	dnolen	technomancy: it's pretty hilarious
12:43	technomancy	dnolen: he's definitely a troll, but there's something to be said for appreciating a skilled troll =)
12:44	dnolen	technomancy: agreed. I certainly prefer his style over the LoperOS drivel.
12:44	nDuff	Hrm.
12:44	cmiles74`	Ugh, LoperOS.
12:46	nDuff	...ahh, moved to the analyzer.
12:57	SegFaultAX\|work2	What's the purpose of the grave mark in: (list* `defn (with-meta name (assoc (meta name) :private true)) decls)
12:58	SegFaultAX\|work2	How is it modifying defn? Or is it an entirely different function?
13:02	TimMc	SegFaultAX\|work2: It's the reader shorthand for syntax-quote.
13:02	TimMc	&(+ 1 2)
13:02	lazybot	⇒ 3
13:02	TimMc	&`(+ 1 2)
13:02	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/+ 1 2)
13:03	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Is there a good place to read about all the reader shorthands?
13:03	TimMc	In this case, you are presumably looking at the internals of the defn- macro?
13:03	TimMc	http://clojure.org/reader
13:03	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Yes I am.
13:04	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Actually maybe I should defer this conversation; I haven't yet got to the macro chapter in Clojure Programming.
13:05	augustl	are there any utils to list all namespaces in a directory?
13:05	SegFaultAX\|work2	One of my biggest issues with this book is that the authors tend to introduce dozens of functions without ever saying what they do.
13:06	SegFaultAX\|work2	So I constantly have to be going back and forth between the (sub-par) documentation and the text.
13:06	TimMc	SegFaultAX\|work2: You can use ` outside of macros, too -- it's just not very common.
13:06	technomancy	augustl: bultitude does that
13:07	TimMc	Yes, clojure.core's docs are not the best. :-/
13:07	augustl	technomancy: looking it up, thanks
13:07	TimMc	ClojureDocs is pretty good.
13:07	hxiao	I use the cheat sheet all the time
13:07	augustl	the actual use case is for loading all my "model" namespaces so I can ensure mongodb indexes
13:07	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: I'll still read this page on Reader syntax. Just meant (future macro-discussion)
13:07	hxiao	http://clojure.org/cheatsheet
13:08	TimMc	&(let [middle [4 5 6]] `[10 11 ~@middle 12 13])
13:08	lazybot	⇒ [10 11 4 5 6 12 13]
13:08	SegFaultAX\|work2	hxiao: Wow, that's super handy. Thank you!
13:08	wingy	should we manually have to worry about when to use java.math.BigDecimal instead of java.lang.Double?
13:09	wingy	,(= (java.math.BigDecimal. 10.67) 10.6699999999999999289457264239899814128875732421875M)
13:09	clojurebot	true
13:09	technomancy	augustl: if you're thinking of adding side-effects at the top-level you should reconsider
13:10	wingy	,(= (-> 10.67 .toString (java.math.BigDecimal.)) 10.67M)
13:10	clojurebot	true
13:11	wingy	should i have to use java.math.BigDecimal manually like this when dealing with math precision or should i just use the numbers directly?
13:12	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: That probably depends heavily on what you're doing.
13:12	wingy	SegFaultAX\|work2: i will handle financial numbers
13:13	wingy	so it has to be specific results
13:13	wingy	in Java they tell you to use java.math.BigDecimal when dealing with accuracy
13:13	wingy	how is it in Clj>
13:13	wingy	is it taking care of that in the background for me using BigDecimal?
13:14	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: I don't think being explicit in this case could hurt.
13:14	SegFaultAX\|work2	Eg using BigDecimal literals.
13:15	SegFaultAX\|work2	But I'm not a Clojure expert so my opinion is worth very little.
13:15	SegFaultAX\|work2	(If anything)
13:16	wingy	i forgot there is M
13:16	wingy	(not= 10.67M 10.6699999999999999289457264239899814128875732421875M)
13:16	wingy	,(not= 10.67M 10.6699999999999999289457264239899814128875732421875M)
13:16	clojurebot	true
13:16	wingy	seems to work better
13:22	cheater	what does M do?
13:23	SegFaultAX\|work2	cheater: It's BigDecimal literal syntax.
13:23	cheater	thx
13:26	augustl	technomancy: the models just define the data structures, then a separate task will read the data and create the indexes
13:27	technomancy	gotcha; carry on
13:27	augustl	:D
13:28	arrdem	is there a good way to do Clojure generation in Clojure? I'm trying to write a program which will generate the FNParse gramar for a BNF input, and I can't find a clear way to manipualte the expressions without evaling them to code
13:30	SegFaultAX\|work2	arrdem: Macros are a form of code generation in Lisps, generally speaking.
13:32	arrdem	SegFaultAX\|work2: thanks for the hint... all I needed was some backquotes and an unquote
13:35	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: So, what exactly is the purpose of the syntax-quote in the case of defn?
13:35	SegFaultAX\|work2	TimMc: Other than just qualifying all of the symbols.
13:37	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: the ability to unquote things into the structure you're building
13:38	SegFaultAX\|work2	ibdknox: Hmm, could you explain that a bit futher?
13:38	ibdknox	you can do it with standard quote, but it requires a lot more manual lifting - it's the difference between concating strings and using format
13:38	technomancy	SegFaultAX\|work2: in the case of the example you gave, it's only for qualifying
13:38	SegFaultAX\|work2	Are lists the only type that can be used in unquote-splicing?
13:41	ibdknox	SegFaultAX\|work2: vectors should work too I believe
13:41	emezeske	,`(1 2 ~@[3 4] 5)
13:41	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
13:41	emezeske	SegFaultAX\|work2: ibdknox is right ^
13:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	Neat!
13:41	emezeske	,`(1 2 ~@#{3 4} 5)
13:41	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 5)
13:41	emezeske	Apprently sets too
13:41	ibdknox	,`(1 2 ~@{:a 3})
13:41	clojurebot	(1 2 [:a 3])
13:42	ibdknox	anything seqable
13:42	emezeske	Well I'll be
13:42	SegFaultAX\|work2	That's useful.
13:48	TimMc	&['a `a]
13:48	lazybot	⇒ [a clojure.core/a]
13:49	TimMc	&(apply str `[\a ~@"bcd" \e])
13:49	lazybot	⇒ "abcde"
13:50	wingy	clj has made me hate syntax .. looking at java makes me think it's messy
13:52	amalloy	unquote-splicing just uses apply/concat
13:52	amalloy	&'`(x ~@y)
13:52	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote clojure.core/x)) y))
13:53	TimMc	&'`[~@a]
13:53	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/apply clojure.core/vector (clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat a)))
13:53	emezeske	amalloy: Interesting, thanks!
14:00	gtrak	there seems to be some difference in semantics with reduce in 1.4, anyone seen this before? java.lang.AbstractMethodError: null https://gist.github.com/3124046
14:03	jsabeaudry	Finally found a satisfying solution to my undefined problem for me and firebug, I use (not= js/undefined (.-myvar window)) (just for the channel records)
14:03	jsabeaudry	oops i meant js/window
14:04	amalloy	&(reduce + 0 nil)
14:04	lazybot	⇒ 0
14:04	amalloy	gtrak: no, sounds like you have some mismatched AOT versions or something
14:04	gtrak	amalloy: ah I thought I was careful about that, I'll look into it some more
14:05	Zeldan_	Could anyone help me out with problem? Described it on SO: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11508881/clojure-repl-unable-to-resolve-symbol-for-all-functions
14:06	d0c0nnor	Does anybody know the easiest way to transform just the values of a map ? Say, to make the city names uppercase here: {"Kansas" "Lawrence" "Oregon" "Salem" "Ohio" "Columbus"} Is there a function for that ?
14:08	d0c0nnor	When I say 'transform' I mean return a new map with the transform applied ..
14:08	llasram	d0c0nnor: `update-in` simulates "updating" the values
14:09	nDuff	d0c0nnor: I tend to use zip-map and just pass the keys through unmodified.
14:09	llasram	d0c0nnor: Well, individual values
14:09	llasram	nDuff's idea sounds better for hitting everything
14:09	d0c0nnor	llasram: I'm not sure that that will work because I don't know the keys
14:10	d0c0nnor	Will try the zip-map, cheers!
14:10	amalloy	&(into {} (for [[k v] {"Kansas" "Lawrence" "Oregon" "Salem" "Ohio" "Columbus"}] [k (.toUppercase v)]))
14:10	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: toUppercase for class java.lang.String
14:10	amalloy	&(into {} (for [[k v] {"Kansas" "Lawrence" "Oregon" "Salem" "Ohio" "Columbus"}] [k (.toUpperCase v)]))
14:10	lazybot	⇒ {"Oregon" "SALEM", "Kansas" "LAWRENCE", "Ohio" "COLUMBUS"}
14:11	amalloy	although as always, let me recommend that if you're using a map for something other than fast lookup by key, you treat it as a seq of tuples until you finally do need fast lookup, and then make it back into a map
14:12	d0c0nnor	amalloy: Makes sense, thanks.
14:17	jsabeaudry	amalloy, if I understand correctly, the transformations on a tuple seq are fast so better do all the manipulation on that and use the map solely for lookups?
14:18	amalloy	well, more accurately, it's expensive to build a map, and if all you're going to do is tear it back down into tuples...
14:18	jsabeaudry	ok! thanks
14:34	mononofu	I'm currently looking for useful libraries, but everywhere I go I see "___ is not under active development"
14:35	kreig1	welcome to a new language
14:35	mononofu	eg penumbra as an OpenGL wrapper
14:35	mononofu	yes, but I'd expect libraries which are updated a lot
14:35	mononofu	not libraries which haven't been touched in over a year
14:36	gtrak	whine whine whine :-)
14:36	dnolen_	mononofu: ztellman has a paying gig at Runa, so I think most of his Clojure energies go into Aleph. Penumbra was something he did in his free time.
14:36	amalloy	mononofu: github.com/flatland/useful
14:36	technomancy	also sometimes projects are done
14:36	dnolen_	mononofu: I think he's mentioned several times that he'd be happy to pass the torch on Penumbra.
14:37	dnolen_	mononofu: but no takers yet.
14:37	kreig1	yah, but you also have lot sof experiements
14:37	kreig1	see Clojure LWGL as well
14:38	kreig1	hehe, useful 8)
14:39	kreig1	dnolen_: my CA was mailed, if that patch for cljs use didn't already make it in...
14:39	cbrozefsky	there we go
14:40	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: oh, howdy :)
14:40	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: I think you'll be happy to hear that reflection is just around the corner for CLJS. Some HackerSchool folks are putting together a patch.
14:40	cbrozefsky	oh good
14:41	cbrozefsky	I do fine in messy opaque places, myself
14:41	cbrozefsky	which is why I prolly write messy opaque code, ha
14:42	madsy	dnolen_: Hooray
14:43	dnolen_	madsy: yes, finally docstring, macroexpand, etc should all be just around the corner.
14:43	cbrozefsky	how you getting macroexpand?
14:43	madsy	Hopefully someone will pick up the torch and make a better repl
14:43	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: there'll be a new ns cljs.reflect or some such, JS can query the REPL server
14:43	cbrozefsky	madsy: agreed, what do you think a better repl shoud look like?
14:43	cbrozefsky	ah
14:44	dnolen_	madsy: the improvements are REPL implementation agnostic.
14:44	cbrozefsky	most of my bitching about the repl is namespace related
14:44	cbrozefsky	(in-ns ..) doesn't pick up the ns-aliases
14:45	amalloy	dnolen_: what is reflection in javascript? just iterating over the object's properties?
14:45	cbrozefsky	or it doesn't in the revision I am using
14:45	hiredman	dnolen_: I assume cljs.reflect will be extensible? like could you replace repl querying with a static data set?
14:45	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: metadata too?
14:45	dnolen_	amalloy: no querying the compilation environment
14:45	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: anything the compiler has that the evaluation environment does not.
14:45	madsy	cbrozefsky: The usual stuff. Breakpoints, stackframes, autocompletion. But I have only limited experience with SLIME so..
14:46	cbrozefsky	hmm, so no squirting this stuff into the JS objects represeting the namespace then?
14:46	cbrozefsky	or maybe a canonical runtime dictionary of metadata?
14:46	madsy	I'm sure more knowledgable people than me have a better idea
14:46	dnolen_	madsy: breakpoints & stackframes etc are not really a part of this.
14:46	cbrozefsky	I was thinking more like reflection that works at runtime without the repl link (macroexpension would be out of course)
14:47	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yes non-goal at this point.
14:47	madsy	dnolen_: I answered cbrozefsky on the side topic
14:47	madsy	But yes
14:47	cbrozefsky	madsys: ok, I see now
14:48	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: ok, so this is mostly about reflection into the compiler runtime while hooked up to the repl
14:48	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yep.
14:49	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: that's welcome improvement. Was stuffing reflection data into the runtime world withdrawn from consideration for a reason other than resource/time/complexity?
14:49	madsy	dnolen_: I didn't mean to imply that reflection has anything to do with the current REPL lacking features. It's just the two biggest disadvantages with CLJS right now
14:49	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: pointing me at this converstaion iN JIRA or whatever is sufficient answer 8)
14:50	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: resource is a big one. non-reified namespaces & vars allows us to leverage aggressive GClosure compression.
14:51	cbrozefsky	ok, and non-reified namespace is why for instance when IN (in-ns someplace in the REPL, I don't have a way to identifying the aliases active when it was compiled
14:52	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yes ... tho that seems like it wouldn't be hard to handle.
14:53	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: I don't know much about gclosure compression, so can't comment on that, but it seems that a significant part of reflection could be done by throwing the metadata into a array that is just not made if being aggresive in compilation
14:54	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: I thinka hybrid is gonna be the end result
14:54	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: dump cljs.analyzer/namespaces and let me know how big it is ;)
14:55	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: when running under the JVM this stuff doesn't matter, targeting JS becomes an issue.
14:55	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: checking...
14:57	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: I think I misunderstood you statementabout dumping cljs.analyzer/namespace
14:58	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: you mean froma running repl
14:58	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: cljs.analyzer/namespaces holds all the metadata plus information that's missing without reified ns'es & vars.
14:58	cbrozefsky	yah, got that part now
14:59	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: repl or no repl. cljs.analyzer/namespaces is not small. 6000 lines of cljs.core + whatever code you ship.
14:59	cbrozefsky	sorry, I was looking for namespaces function, as in, I thought you were trying to show how complicated namespace compilation was 8)
14:59	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: plus a lot of info won't matter since GClosure dead code eliminates.
14:59	cbrozefsky	yup
14:59	cbrozefsky	you enter into the world of PDB files basically
15:00	cbrozefsky	aka, your reflection/debugging data is seperate and loaded on demand
15:00	cbrozefsky	haha
15:00	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: even a namespaces outside of dev function makes no sense - all those names will be rewritten.
15:00	cbrozefsky	yup
15:00	cbrozefsky	I usually run with whitespace optimization only BTW
15:00	cbrozefsky	so I often debug by reading the JS
15:01	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yes I think most folks do.
15:01	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: see the point now
15:02	cbrozefsky	dnolen_: in this deployment environment, performance is prolly a higher priority
15:02	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yep. it's easy for the generated JS to be 600-700k.
15:02	dnolen_	space savings from GClosure can be 7X
15:03	cbrozefsky	wow
15:03	cbrozefsky	mine is 1.2m
15:03	cbrozefsky	for libre
15:03	cbrozefsky	with whitespace only
15:04	dnolen_	heh yep. if you want macros and compiled JS perf w/o producing a bloated monster - CLJS strategy is the best I've seen for Lisp->JS.
15:05	saua	there's one thing I'm not getting. When googling i see a lot of references to libraries located in clojure.contrib, but that's been discontinued right?
15:05	TimMc	saua: Correct, monolithic contrib is no more.
15:05	TimMc	~contrib
15:05	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
15:05	cbrozefsky	1.2m with whistepsace optimization, 215k with :advanced
15:06	cbrozefsky	is there a performance win with those optimizations as well?
15:06	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: + gzip you're down to what 60k? 70k?
15:06	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: yes, we do whole program optimizations that don't kick in outside of :static-fns true or :optimizations :advanced.
15:07	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: mostly around fn invocations and protocol representation - many more improvements still to come.
15:07	cbrozefsky	47k
15:07	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: :D
15:08	cbrozefsky	smaller than a gzipped processing.js 8)
15:08	dnolen_	cbrozefsky: tots
15:09	augustl	how do you get a "def" from a namespace that might or might not be present?
15:09	saua	ty TimMc
15:10	cbrozefsky	augustl: in cljs or clj?
15:10	augustl	cbrozefsky: clj
15:11	cbrozefsky	try and resolve th var
15:11	cbrozefsky	if cannot, then require the namespace?
15:12	cbrozefsky	weavejester: me and another hacker were talking about hiccup earlier today
15:12	augustl	trying `(get (ns-publics ns) 'my-thing)`, it yields `#'my-ns/my-thing`
15:12	augustl	not sure how to get the actual value from that :)
15:12	cbrozefsky	weavejester: we were thinking that the classes in the attr-map should append to the ones defined in the element keyword
15:13	cbrozefsky	weavejester: thoughts?
15:13	amalloy	,@#'clojure-version
15:13	clojurebot	{:interim true, :major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier "master"}
15:13	weavejester	cbrozefsky: They should
15:13	weavejester	cbrozefsky: Send me a patch, I'll add it in.
15:13	augustl	ns-resolve yields the same thing
15:13	cbrozefsky	sweet, I'll have to update to the latest revision first tho
15:14	cbrozefsky	weavejester: also, on that whole ring-csrf token thing, I discovered that I really needed it working at the noir level
15:14	augustl	it's `type` is "Var", odd
15:14	cbrozefsky	weavejester: so I ended up redoing it there, sorry to drop that without a note
15:14	augustl	or clojure.lang.Var to be specific
15:14	weavejester	cbrozefsky: Working at the Noir level? What do you mean?
15:15	cbrozefsky	I wanted it to use noir sessions
15:15	weavejester	cbrozefsky: I thought Noir sessions were built on top of Ring sessions.
15:16	cbrozefsky	yes, they are, but there was something else that came up, and I need a minute to recall
15:17	augustl	ah, I had to dereference it
15:19	cbrozefsky	weavejester: sorry, I can't recall now. I also added a bypass hook for my case, but that's not the "reason" I was thinking of. Just ignore I said anything 8)
15:19	amalloy	augustl: i did try to show you that. not explicit enough, i guess
15:20	augustl	amalloy: oh I didn't notice, sorry
15:20	augustl	and thanks :)
15:22	TimMc	&(let [r (atom nil)] (reset! r r))
15:22	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
15:22	TimMc	This is not what I expected.
15:24	ToxicFrog	TimMc: that's pretty cool
15:24	TimMc	&(let [a (atom 1) b (atom 2)] (reset! a b) @@a)
15:24	lazybot	⇒ 2
15:24	TimMc	&(let [a (atom 1) b (atom 2)] (reset! a b) (reset! b a))
15:24	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
15:25	joly	&(let [a (atom 1) b (atom 2)] (reset! a b) (reset! b a) nil)
15:25	lazybot	⇒ nil
15:26	faust45	hi guys
15:27	faust45	if i have type storing in var, how i can make instance ?
15:27	TimMc	joly: Arg, it's the printing! Got it.
15:27	faust45	any suggestins?
15:28	amalloy	short answer, faust45: you can't
15:28	faust45	(var-storing-type. "data")
15:28	amalloy	long answer: you can't in any way that is fast or reliable
15:28	faust45	like this
15:28	faust45	amalloy: so i need macros ?
15:30	TimMc	faust45: No one can tell you that without knowing more about your specific problem.
15:31	gtrak	amalloy: re 1.4 AOT, yep you were right
15:31	faust45	TimMc: i have https://friendpaste.com/53MKnWboUIKj7JwCqIQCCp
15:31	faust45	TimMc: need to build chess figures
15:31	faust45	in simple way
15:32	cmcbride	is there any core function for parsing boolean-like values?
15:32	cmcbride	I'm writing a noir app and I want to parse GET params
15:33	cmcbride	so I'd like "0" to return false
15:34	TimMc	faust45: And Queen is some class you don't control?
15:34	TimMc	Anyway, what's wrong with (Queen. 'd1) ?
15:38	faust45	TimMc: Queen is my typedef, (Queen. 'd1) not working for me i want be able to build few same figures in diff positions
15:38	faust45	like [Elephant 'c1 'f1]
15:39	amalloy	faust45: i think everyone in this room would recommend against defining new classes for the different pieces
15:40	amalloy	just use a keyword or symbol to represent the kind of piece (eg :queen), and define functions that contain the polymorphism you want (eg, a multimethod like (get-legal-moves piece-type current-location board))
15:49	faust45	thanks for suggestions guys
15:52	kovasb	dnolen_: what is the new cljs repl goodness?
15:54	augustl	are there any html form builder libraries out there? Something that takes a data representing the HTML, the values and validation errors, and spits out a string of HTML or hiccup data.
15:54	dnolen_	kovasb: having access to analyzer info / compiler at the repl.
15:54	augustl	"takes a data" :)
15:54	kovasb	nice. that would be useful
15:55	dnolen_	kovasb: docs strings, namespace introspection, var inspection, macroexpand etc.
15:56	kovasb	dnolen_: cool. would also be useful to have that info when the compiler complains
15:56	dnolen_	kovasb: have you checked out the CLJS reactive thread yet?
15:56	dnolen_	kovasb: can you be more specific?
15:56	kovasb	dnolen_: yes but i was not approved for dev mailing list memberhsip
15:56	kovasb	dnolen_: is it for CA'ed people only?
15:56	kovasb	dnolen_: yeah, like my mysterious "this is not a protocol" error
15:57	kovasb	dnolen_: would be nice to know what exactly the analyzer was thinking
15:57	kovasb	dnolen_: i don't have a printer so I haven't mailed the CA
15:57	dnolen_	kovasb: :P
15:59	dnolen_	kovasb: can you make a ticket + minimal repo case in JIRA - also you are using CLJS head right?
16:00	wingy	time for cljs!
16:01	kovasb	dnolen_: not using head, since I don't know how to do it in conjunction with cljsbuild
16:02	emezeske	kovasb: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/wiki/Using-a-Git-Checkout-of-the-ClojureScript-Compiler
16:02	kovasb	dnolen_: i mean, i know i can built it manually but haven't had the time
16:02	kovasb	nice
16:03	kovasb	dnolen_: its pretty hard to use git bisect since the namespaces changed with the analyzer breakout
16:03	kovasb	but ill try head and see if it works now
16:03	dnolen_	kovasb: yeah, can't help much unless you were against head.
16:03	dnolen_	s/were/work
16:04	kovasb	dnolen_: is there any chance my tagged literals thing will get worked on?
16:04	kovasb	dnolen_: or should i just plan on doing it myself
16:04	wingy	can't the PDF be made online in http://himera.herokuapp.com/index.html
16:04	wingy	so you don't have to download it
16:04	dnolen_	kovasb: if you work on it :) or bug fogus, I haven't looked at the reader literal stuff closely.
16:05	kovasb	dnolen_: alright ill try bugging him on twitter :)
16:06	dnolen_	kovasb: or bring it up on regular ML and CC him.
16:06	kovasb	ok
16:07	kovasb	i see stuart sierra is gonna come to the next meetup
16:07	kovasb	he's also involved with this on this clj side
16:07	dnolen_	kovasb: right
16:08	kovasb	letting undefined tags pass through without meltdown is pretty important
16:09	dnolen_	kovasb: yes, you've brought it up before - always worth rebumping and mentioning Session - folks know about that.
16:10	kovasb	dnolen_: yeah. last week or two i've been more focused on drinking beer etc but time to ramp up again
16:10	dnolen_	kovasb: sounds like fun :)
16:10	kovasb	mid-air refueling :)
16:11	technomancy	kovasb: would it make sense to connect alternative clients to a session server? seems like the reified history would be useful in other contexts
16:11	kovasb	technomancy: by clients, you mean the evaluation services?
16:12	technomancy	more like what if you wanted to use something other than webkit to view a session session
16:12	technomancy	err--something other than a browser
16:12	kovasb	technomancy: i see. Yes, absolutely
16:12	kovasb	technomancy: the idea is, if its just this declarative data structure, you can build other tools on it as well
16:13	kovasb	technomancy: like slide show view, or whatever
16:13	technomancy	is that stuff factored out from the browser-centric UI?
16:13	kovasb	technomancy: also the graphics stuff should be portable to swing and other hosts
16:13	kovasb	technomancy: not yet, but that is the intention. the blocker is that the user-defined tagged literal support is not there yet
16:13	technomancy	cool
16:14	kovasb	technomancy: so its all hacked into one project at the moment
16:14	nDuff	Hrm.
16:14	technomancy	I wonder if it would make sense as an nrepl middleware
16:14	kovasb	technomancy: that would be cool. hiredman tried to do that but hit some issue
16:15	kovasb	"I think the issue is the nrepl requests are not stateless, and so the session/cookie info is being lost across requests. There doesn't seem to be a quick fix for that"
16:15	kovasb	not sure what that means. but nrepl support would be great
16:15	technomancy	oh, as a middleware even
16:16	hiredman	kovasb: oh, it works now, except for the last bit in the cascalog example, which I haven't looked in to, but I think it comes down to how cascalog tries to map classes to vars
16:16	kovasb	technomancy: what would a middleware do?
16:17	hiredman	middleware is a different beast entirely from evaling via nrepl
16:17	technomancy	kovasb: just makes it easier to tie into an existing stack IIUC
16:17	kovasb	technomancy: like, send the output to get rendered in session or something?
16:18	SegFaultAX\|work2	I don't suppose there is an automatic administration panel library like ActiveAdmin, RailsAdmin, or Django Admin, is there?
16:19	kovasb	hiredman: i definitely want cascalog to work, so will look into it
16:19	technomancy	I was thinking something like content-negotiation where if a client indicates he's compliant with session-style reified history then he gets it, otherwise it falls back to regular nrepl
16:19	hiredman	kovasb: it is a sweet demo
16:19	kovasb	hiredman: thanks :)
16:19	gtrak	SegFaultAX\|work2: most of the web frameworks are tiny
16:19	kovasb	technomancy: i see. interesting
16:21	gtrak	SegFaultAX\|work2: maybe try https://github.com/macourtney/Conjure/ ?
16:27	wingy	when do you think that cljs will be out of its alpha status and have most of the clj features in place?
16:27	kovasb	wingy: what features are you thinking of?
16:28	wingy	all that are still missing that could be implemented
16:28	wingy	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Differences-from-Clojure
16:30	kovasb	wingy: the vast majority of that stuff is "intentional differences" and thus unlikely to change anytime soon
16:30	dnolen_	wingy: the remaining ones will happen as people submit patches.
16:35	wingy	what does this mean: Macros are written in Clojure
16:35	wingy	i write them in Clojure and they are converted into cljs?
16:36	wingy	or js i mean
16:36	TimMc	wingy: They are written in cljs and convert cljs to other cljs.
16:36	TimMc	arg
16:36	TimMc	*written in clj
16:36	wingy	i write them in clj and its converted into cljs?
16:36	kovasb	wingy: macros execute in the JVM, but the code they transform is cljs
16:37	wingy	i c
16:37	Raynes	It's WEEEEEEEEEEIRD
16:37	kovasb	wingy: macros only need to execute once to achieve their code transformation purpose, so don't need to run in js (unless you have eval in cljs which we dont)
16:37	wingy	yeah i get it
16:38	wingy	i write in clj .. the macro should convert cljs to cljs
16:38	wingy	:)
16:38	kovasb	it is a little weird
16:38	kovasb	right
16:38	wingy	cool . that means i can use original clj
16:38	dnolen_	wingy: pretty much.
16:38	kovasb	you just need to remember that the output needs to be valid cljs (with the correct namespaces, not references java classes etc)
16:38	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: Presumably as long as the expanded code is valid cljs.
16:39	wingy	i actually like original clj better since its more powerful in server side .. are there strong reasons to use cljs on node.js on server side?
16:39	dnolen_	wingy: on trick I used in core.match is to simply call the macros with a dynamic var clojurescript
16:39	kovasb	wingy: not yet
16:39	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: There is no reason to use node.js, no.
16:39	wingy	:)
16:39	wingy	since you lose concurrency and other good stuff
16:40	brehaut	but you lose startup latency right?
16:40	wingy	yeah
16:40	technomancy	brehaut: yeah, but CLI apps are just a different kind of client
16:40	wingy	but i have realized i dont wanna run a script each time from the cli
16:40	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: Since you lose the ability to write your server code in a sane language.
16:40	wingy	i wanna run a repl and run everything inside it
16:41	brehaut	technomancy: perhaps its too early here, but i dont understand
16:41	kovasb	wingy: yes, you can still execute cljs code at the repl
16:41	wingy	eg. instead of "lein test" i wanna do "(run-tests 'myapp.core-test)" from the repl instead
16:41	Hodapp	SegFaultAX\|work2: eh, I've never used JavaScript much.
16:41	wingy	brehaut: so the latency doesn't matter in clj land
16:41	Hodapp	SegFaultAX\|work2: why do folks like writing server-side JS?
16:41	technomancy	brehaut: oh, I thought he was asking about client-side vs server-side
16:41	SegFaultAX\|work2	Hodapp: Mental illness, probably.
16:41	kovasb	wingy: there is the browser-connected repl, and the rhino one
16:42	Hodapp	SegFaultAX\|work2: this is true.
16:42	brehaut	technomancy: he may well be
16:43	kovasb	though i don't understand if its possible to define and use a macro at the cljs command line
16:48	wingy	i dont quite get bindings .. so i define a Var with "def" and then I can rebind it to another value that is thread-local .. why would i wanna do that and not just use another local?
16:48	gtrak	wingy: dynamic scoping
16:49	duck1123	As an example, bind a var at the start of a web request, it''ll be bound for only that request's thread
16:49	alandipert	wingy: you might also have code you didn't write inside your binding, and you want it to "see" your new value
16:50	duck1123	makes sense
16:50	wingy	alandipert: yeah that one i get
16:50	gtrak	consider as an example.. (maybe bad design but whatever), you need to alter the behavior of a function by a switch, but you don't want to change its signature, add a var with the default behavior, bind it to another value to change it.
16:50	duck1123	mt
16:50	gtrak	wingy: real world example ^
16:51	wingy	perhaps i dont understand how threads are working explicitly
16:52	kovasb	a pretty typical example is binding the database resource
16:52	wingy	if i have a source code and run it it will be run by a main thread
16:52	wingy	(def ^:dynamic a 1) (binding [a 2] a) vs (def a 1) (let [a 2] a)
16:52	gtrak	having them be thread-local is for safety in a multithreaded environment... you don't want to change behavior for other people's requests when you bind a var, do you?
16:53	kovasb	wingy: the binding only happens within the (binding ..) clause, and when the execution emerges, its back to its original value
16:53	wingy	gtrak: so in the second example if that happened in one thread all other threads will see the value of a as 2?
16:54	kovasb	in the let case, a is for all intents and purposes a unique name
16:54	kovasb	rather than overriding an existing one
16:54	gtrak	wingy: no... other functions can't see what's in your let unless you pass the value along
16:54	gtrak	dynamic vs lexical scoping
16:55	gtrak	in your binding example, other threads will see whatever the value was before you bound to it
16:55	gtrak	it's a stack
16:55	kovasb	its not just other threads
16:56	kovasb	in this case
16:57	kovasb	(def a 1) (def b a) (let [a 2] b) --> 1
16:57	gtrak	(def ^:dynamic a) (binding [a 1] (binding [a 2] (binding [a 3] (println a)) (println a)) (println a)) ; prints 3 2 1
16:57	amalloy	wingy: forget threads entirely; the thread-locality of vars is just a safety feature, not the important point
16:58	_zach	Does clojure support native string interpolation? I'm seeing a lot of "~{}"-like things in the clojurescript source, but there's likely some cleverness I'm missing
16:58	duck1123	didn't a library recently add that officially?
16:58	amalloy	(def a 1) (defn foo [] a) [(foo) (let [a 2] (foo)) (binding [a 2] (foo))] returns [1 1 2]
16:58	dnolen_	_zach: js* is an implementation hack which should not be relied on.
16:58	duck1123	incubator?
16:59	SegFaultAX\|work2	wingy: This concept is called shadowing. The value in the local binding is shadowing the binding in the level above.
16:59	SegFaultAX\|work2	kovasb: Overriding means something slightly different.
16:59	alandipert	duck1123: : yes i think cemerick's string interp. stuff is in core.incubator
17:00	kovasb	duck1123: theres a variety of string templating projects on github
17:01	cemerick	duck1123: FWIW, https://github.com/clojure/core.incubator/
17:02	cemerick	There's really no such thing as "native string interpolation", though. Just fast compile-time templating, or slow runtime templating. :-P
17:03	_zach	cemerick: I kinda just meant built-in when I said native :). I was just reading some cljs source incorrectly.
17:03	brehaut	cemerick: you missed out very slow runtime templating
17:03	wingy	http://emacswiki.org/emacs/DynamicBindingVsLexicalBinding lets see if i get any smarter
17:04	cemerick	_zach: yeah, no worries, I was just being snarkily pedantic. :-)
17:05	_zach	cemerick: that's the best kind of snarky, and the best kind of pedantic :)
17:05	kovasb	wingy: lexical just means the code that literally exists inside the let statement. if the symbol you are let'ing is not literally present in that block of code, it isn't effected
17:06	kovasb	lexical, e.g. like find/replace in the text editor
17:07	gtrak	kovasb: huh?
17:07	gerunddev	Is there a form of map equality that ignores order?
17:07	gtrak	find/replace sounds like alter-var-root to me
17:07	gerunddev	Basically permo for maps.
17:08	amalloy	gerunddev: yes, every form of map equality
17:08	kovasb	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexicon
17:08	gtrak	,(= {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 2 :a 1 :c 3})
17:08	clojurebot	true
17:08	kovasb	lexicon is the words and phrases
17:08	gtrak	,(.equals {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 2 :a 1 :c 3})
17:08	clojurebot	true
17:09	gtrak	,(.identical {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 2 :a 1 :c 3})
17:09	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: identical for class clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap>
17:09	Raynes	&(identical? {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} {:b 2 :a 1 :c 3})
17:09	lazybot	⇒ false
17:09	gerunddev	Ok, that makes sense.
17:09	gtrak	quickdraw Raynes: :-)
17:09	kovasb	not having to do with meaning, e.g. value
17:09	gerunddev	So then I should blame this on clojure.test:
17:09	gerunddev	actual: (not (= {:include_docs false, :limit :21} {:limit 21, :include_docs false}))
17:09	gerunddev	?
17:09	Raynes	gerunddev: :21 != 21
17:10	Raynes	Notice that one of those is a keyword.
17:10	wingy	damn my finger nails are too long .. it hurts when i type
17:10	technomancy	gerunddev: lein-difftest will help you spot those issues
17:10	Raynes	&:21
17:10	lazybot	⇒ :21
17:11	gtrak	,(= {:include_docs false, :limit (int (name :21))} {:limit 21, :include_docs false})
17:11	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to java.lang.Character>
17:11	kovasb	dynamic scoping is perhaps an unfortunate phrase, perhaps more accurately "runtime" scoping
17:11	technomancy	"deep" binding helped me understand it
17:11	Raynes	gerunddev: It's okay. I've done worse.
17:11	gtrak	,(= {:include_docs false, :limit (Integer/valueOf (name :21))} {:limit 21, :include_docs false})
17:11	clojurebot	true
17:12	Raynes	gtrak: Think we get the point. ;P
17:13	wingy	i start to get the diff
17:13	logancampbell	say i am modeling a file system in datomic. i have folders and they may have many children. (:folder/child has a cardinality of many). how could i write a query that returns all folders with no children?
17:14	gtrak	wingy: I feel like vars are controlled global variables
17:14	wingy	lexical/static binding is resolved by looking _where_ the identifier is used .. while dynamic binding is resolved by looking at _when_ the identifier is used
17:15	wingy	the former is about place .. the latter is about time
17:15	kovasb	yes
17:15	TimMc	spacebinding and timebinding
17:15	wingy	yes!
17:15	technomancy	nice
17:15	TimMc	Winner of the prestigious 2012 Sounds Cooler Than It Is Award.
17:15	gtrak	can we really decouple time from lexical bindings?
17:16	gtrak	that'd be a neat trick
17:16	kovasb	yes, it essentially happens at compile time
17:16	gtrak	errr... in some sense I guess
17:16	gtrak	that seems strange to say to me, being a von-neumann guy first
17:18	gtrak	maybe if everything was lazily evaluated I'd believe you
17:20	gtrak	lookup parameterization vs actual values at runtime I guess is what we're arguing about
17:22	gtrak	I suppose jvm overhead and GC is kinda like laziness
17:24	siscia	(Hi everybody, I have a little question about the design of a bayesian network, direct acyclic graph, anybody has a little of experience and can help me ?)
17:24	hiredman	kovasb: https://github.com/actsasgeek/nota-bene
17:25	hiredman	:( noir
17:25	technomancy	hiredman: `lein deps` =(
17:25	kovasb	hiredman: whoa
17:27	wingy	wow .. read the first section of http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DynamicScoping .. another perfect explanation
17:27	kovasb	who knows what lurks on github..
17:29	hiredman	interestingly doesn't store the result of a computation in the work book
17:29	wingy	but that is the same as the place and time explanation .. lexical: where is the identifier used? inside this scope, that is inside this scope, that is …. dynamic: when is the identifier used? when this fn is called, which is called by this fn, which is called by...
17:29	kovasb	well, thats a problem :)
17:29	penthief	How do I add tools.jar to the maven-clojure-plugin clojure classpath?
17:30	amalloy	oh, i like the time/place explanation. that's cute
17:31	wingy	for someone that is interested: http://info.rjmetrics.com/blog/bid/51652/Lexical-vs-Dynamic-Scope-in-Clojure
17:35	wingy	in a let binding the symbol is directly naming the value whereas in a def the symbol is naming the var that is pointing to a value?
17:40	gtrak	wingy: I was reading that one
17:40	gtrak	yes, what you said is correct
17:40	wingy	great :)
17:40	gtrak	if you want to get at the var itself when you reference it, you can use (var ..) or #'
17:40	wingy	yepp
17:40	gtrak	,(var +)
17:40	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/+
17:41	gtrak	,(class (var +))
17:41	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
17:41	gtrak	,(class +)
17:41	clojurebot	clojure.core$_PLUS_
17:41	wingy	dynamic binding is so powerful
17:42	Raynes	THE POWER. IT CONSUMES ME! ARRGGGGGG
17:42	gtrak	kinda like global variables
17:42	wingy	with great power comes great responsibility
17:42	Raynes	Yeah, except not at all. ;)
17:44	arrdem	Well I mean if you rebind + to - don't come crying here
17:44	siscia	(Hi everybody, I have a little question about the design of a bayesian network, direct acyclic graph, anybody has a little of experience and can help me ?)
17:45	brehaut	~anyone
17:45	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
17:45	brehaut	^ siscia
17:45	gtrak	arrdem: actually not sure if that will totally break
17:46	gtrak	,(letfn [(test [] (+ 1 2))] (with-redefs [+ -] (test)))
17:46	clojurebot	3
17:46	gtrak	turns out + is inlined
17:48	gtrak	,(letfn [(test [] (println 1 2))] (with-redefs [println -] (test)))
17:48	clojurebot	-1
18:00	siscia	I was wonder if in the designed of a graph would be better have a very basic "node" (name, table, childs) and have more complex function in the graph. Or it would be better have more complex node (name table parents non-descendants child) and simpler function for the graph structure... It is making any sense ? It's not easy to explain...
18:02	kovasb	siscia: what is "table" referring to?
18:03	siscia	kovasb: i am trying to build a bayesian network, every node should have a probability table to work...
18:06	aaelony	siscia: have you looked at cemerick's talk? http://blip.tv/clojure/chas-emerick-modeling-the-world-probabilistically-using-bayesian-networks-in-clojure-5961126
18:08	siscia	aaelony, yes i did thanks... but it didn't really give me a lot of ideas for the designed...
18:08	siscia	I guess that the better way could be keep the node as "easy" as possible...
18:08	aaelony	siscia: after minute 23 he shows how he represents models
18:13	gtrak	oo, I found something fun
18:13	gtrak	&(let [m (zipmap (range 10000) (range 10000))]
18:13	gtrak	(time (dotimes [x 100] (into {} m))))
18:13	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
18:13	gtrak	(let [m (zipmap (range 10000) (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [x 1000] (into {} m))))
18:13	gtrak	&(let [m (zipmap (range 10000) (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [x 1000] (into {} m)))) ; sorry
18:13	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 5322.963618 msecs" nil
18:14	gtrak	&(let [m (zipmap (range 10000) (range 10000))] (time (dotimes [x 1000] (persistent! (reduce-kv (fn [acc k v] (assoc! acc k v)) (transient {}) m)))))
18:14	lazybot	⇒ "Elapsed time: 2385.999993 msecs" nil
18:14	gtrak	reduce-kv is a faster into for maps
18:16	siscia	aaelony, yes i saw that, but... The better way to represent a node for a bayesian network should be (:name (parents) (non-descendants)) that is what you want if you need to find independence between node in order to get faster query. But in this way is gonna be very hard given a node find the child.
18:19	siscia	aaelony, its looks like that cemerick has just memorized the child and he will pass the model in a function to get the parents and non-descendants, but now i also need to make sure that is a DAG (direct acyclic graph) and not just a graph.
18:19	siscia	well I guess i am going for the cemerick way anyway, it's look smarter...
18:20	siscia	the talk is very interesting...
18:22	kovasb	what up talios
18:22	talios	hola - not much this morning yet is up.
18:26	cemerick	siscia, aaelony: https://github.com/cemerick/raposo is indeed the right link, though I've not yet fixed the implementation enough to be comfortable putting it out there.
18:27	cemerick	In hindsight, I shouldn't have promised it in the first place, since it wasn't tightened up yet by the time the conf rolled around, and it ended up needing more than I originally expected.
18:29	technomancy	cemerick: having a conference talk blocked on writing code that doesn't exist yet is the worst thing =\
18:29	siscia	cemerick, I completely understand it is harder that what it looks in the books... I am implementing the DAG like a set what you think is so stupid like idea ?
18:30	cemerick	technomancy: well, the shitter of it is that the code does exist. But, the week prior, I had a friend of mine look it over that had expertise in that area; he pointed out some serious flaws in the maths that, by happenstance, didn't manifest themselves with my dataset.
18:31	cemerick	But, mea culpa in any case.
18:32	cemerick	At this point, I feel better about leaving the repo empty than putting out stuff that probably will have undefined results with someone's protein analysis or something.
18:33	technomancy	ouch =(
18:35	siscia	cemerick, i would suggest to just push the infractuture and not the math part... it is still a lot of work...
18:35	cemerick	meh, the maths are the real meat of it
18:38	siscia	I know but maybe someone that has time to work on the math would find your repo...
18:42	aaelony	siscia: I would look to see how Weka and Mahout implement BNs and also perhaps other packages that (may not) scale but take other approaches
18:43	siscia	aaelony, thank for the hit
18:43	brehaut	ive never understood why they chose the name Weka for an AIish system
18:43	brehaut	those are some pretty dumb birds
18:43	aaelony	hehe...
18:44	aaelony	maybe see how matlab or octave implements as well
18:44	brehaut	oh. its an acronym
18:46	aaelony	siscia: maybe this is also helpful (??) https://code.google.com/p/bnt/
18:48	siscia	aaelony, yes it is definetily is, thanks
18:49	siscia	the real problem is that oo code helps (weka and mahout) but not so much...
18:50	aaelony	siscia: yeah, performance will be key
18:50	aaelony	siscia: there is likely (somewhere) a github fork of Bradford Cross' old Infer library code that might have something as well, not sure
18:52	siscia	aaelony, https://github.com/aria42/infer this ?
18:53	aaelony	siscia: possibly, there exist some machine learning stuff in there, don't remember if there was any BNs
18:54	siscia	aaelony, i will give a look
18:54	siscia	thank you anyway, I appreciate
18:54	aaelony	siscia: sure. also take a look at incanter. http://incanter.org/docs/api/
18:56	siscia	aaelony, right, thanks again... Now it is about 1 AM in my country I should go to sleep... Thank again
18:57	aaelony	the sun never sets on Clojure IRC ... :)
18:58	siscia	LOL
19:01	gfredericks	I dunno. when it's 1-4am in the US it can be pretty quiet
19:01	gfredericks	maybe 3-6 more accurately
19:08	aaelony	siscia: for when you're up tomorrow, perhaps a graph db like jiraph will be worth looking into as well? https://github.com/flatland/jiraph
19:09	amalloy	$mail siscia forwarded message from aaelony: siscia: for when you're up tomorrow, perhaps a graph db like jiraph will be worth looking into as well? https://github.com/flatland/jiraph
19:09	lazybot	Message saved.
19:10	aaelony	amalloy: that is cool
19:10	amalloy	that's why Raynes wrote it!
19:10	aaelony	Raynes is cool
19:14	gerunddev	(defprotocol P (f1 [x] [x y] [x y z]))
19:59	mindbender	how do I make heroku use lein2? It's insisting on using a cached version of 1.7.
20:00	technomancy	mindbender: heroku config:add BUILDPACK_URL="http://github.com/heroku/heroku-buildpack-clojure.git#lein-2"
20:00	technomancy	more details at https://github.com/heroku/heroku-buildpack-clojure/tree/lein-2
20:03	kovasb	dnolen: unleashed a rant on the ML. feel free to chime in with a +1 or something :)
20:10	dnolen	kovasb: cool, you really need to get your CA in :)
20:11	kovasb	yeah, too bad there is no e-signature option
20:11	kovasb	"who uses dead trees anymore"
20:12	gfredericks	what on earth does an e-signature mean?
20:12	kovasb	signing pdfs
20:12	gfredericks	oh like a scanned hand-signature?
20:13	technomancy	gpg signature =)
20:13	gfredericks	technomancy: srsly
20:13	hiredman	I signed all the forms for work by using latex to place an eps of my signature on the pdf
20:13	dnolen	kovasb: I don't have much to add since I'm not actively working with literals. A Confluence page at this point would be better - I'm still not sure I understand the nuances.
20:13	hiredman	Super Secure(tm)
20:13	kovasb	dnolen: content less important than visibility in this case
20:14	gfredericks	my favorite is "click this button to e-sign."
20:14	kovasb	dnolen: i mean, if you totally flamed me, that would also work :)
20:14	technomancy	gfredericks: "click this button if you think there's any validity at all in this process"
20:14	gfredericks	:)
20:14	hiredman	being able to work with unknown instance literals would be useful
20:14	gfredericks	doesn't the IRS use something equivalent?
20:15	technomancy	gfredericks: "if you question the usefulness of a signature mechanism that can be trivially forged, turn to page 45."
20:15	gfredericks	lol
20:15	kovasb	hiredman: without that, its basically no better than arbitrary reader macros, where everyone needs the exact same setup
20:16	hiredman	kovasb: maybe a better approach is the ability to define a cache all reader
20:17	hiredman	might be more flexible
20:17	hiredman	catch all :)
20:17	hiredman	(catch all? fall back? something like that)
20:17	kovasb	hiredman: that could work. though i figure you can extend-type on the UndefinedLiteral as well
20:18	dnolen	kovasb: I could chime in but I don't think it would help. A Confluence page w/ a design / solution could spark some focused discussion. Then a patch could fall out of that.
20:18	hiredman	with the fallback, you could just define it as identity, and get the unprocessed value
20:19	dnolen	kovasb: basically, people work on what they need. If you need it - then you probably need to work on it.
20:19	kovasb	hiredman: yeah but if you need to transmit the data to the next guy, you need to reconstruct the literal
20:19	hiredman	kovasb: shrug if you need to do that, then you set the fallback reader to something that lets you do that
20:19	kovasb	dnolen: alright looks like there is a kinkos within a couple of blocks from me. will put on my big boy pants
20:20	kovasb	hiredman: i think that is the most common case, that should just happen automatically
20:20	penthief	Is there a maven-cljsbuild plugin yet?
20:21	kovasb	hiredman: though for my solution to work, you effectively need a catch-all anyway
20:21	kovasb	hiredman: so one should be able to redefine it as well
20:27	emezeske	penthief: You don't like leiningen? :)
20:30	penthief	I don't think so, there are better tools for maven.
20:33	penthief	Are we trying to take over the entire stack?
20:35	emezeske	penthief: Well, Leiningen uses maven repositories, so I don't think it's replacing the entire stack, just the frontend.
20:35	amalloy	&((fn x [] (x))) ;; we did it, took over the whole stack!
20:35	lazybot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
20:35	kovasb	destroying the village in order to save it
20:46	wingy	Oracle is porting JavaScript to JVM .. does that mean ClojureScript will be using that one instead of Rhino?
20:56	emezeske	wingy: ClojureScript doesn't target any one virtual machine
20:56	emezeske	wingy: So presumably Oracle's JS port to JVM will just add another platform for ClojureScript to run on
20:56	wingy	hm
20:56	wingy	yeah im reading https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/The-REPL-and-Evaluation-Environments
20:57	wingy	so you start your JVM and then you start the JS repl inside of it it seems
20:57	emezeske	CLJS runs on rhino, node.js, v8, spidermonkey, etc
20:57	emezeske	wingy: The backend for running REPL commands is configurable
20:59	wingy	emezeske: im trying to get how it all works
20:59	wingy	what is the best guide to use cljs in my browser app?
20:59	emezeske	wingy: If you're just getting started, I'd start with lein-cljsbuild (shameless plug)
21:01	dnolen	emezeske: that said if Nashorn is significantly faster than Rhino, which is cruelly slow, I'm all for it :)
21:02	emezeske	dnolen: Oh, hell yeah
21:05	kovasb	they are claiming its 3-5 times faster, but i fail to see the point
21:05	dnolen	kovasb: hmm 3-5 faster? That's it? Forget about it.
21:06	kovasb	according to some random info world article
21:06	dnolen	kovasb: I thought idea was to be competitve w/ things like V8, JSC, and SM
21:07	kovasb	dnolen: granted it is brand new
21:08	wingy	oracle want a piece of the pie
21:08	dnolen	kovasb: I suppose perf is tied to perf of invokeDynamic.
21:08	jhulten	wingy: Oracle wants to own the means of pie production...
21:09	wingy	:D
21:13	dnolen	kovasb: did you take a look at halgari's reactive lib?
21:14	kovasb	dnolen: yes i've looked at all that stuff to some degree
21:14	dnolen	kovasb: thoughts?
21:15	kovasb	i haven't had that magical "this is it" feeling yet
21:16	kovasb	I'm not sure what to think, other than its good people are exploring the domain
21:19	kovasb	dnolen: "Special macro code is needed for if, and let." not a good sign
21:25	kovasb	dnolen: i do agree that its better to have a dsl than to manually connect the pieces together
21:25	wingy	is this a nice way to get how to use cljs with clj? https://github.com/brentonashworth/one
21:25	dnolen	kovasb: I think part of the problem is that people are thinking about DSL instead of thinking about what the machinery should look like first.
21:26	kovasb	dnolen: yes i agree
21:26	kovasb	dnolen: one big thing that is getting complect here is, the sources and sinks of the events are mutable objects
21:27	kovasb	dnolen: so we are have an impledence mismatch problem as well as a "reactive update" problem
21:28	kovasb	dnolen: i basically got my DSL as far as i could go before realizing i couldn't really conceptualize what was actually happening
21:28	wingy	clojurescriptone seems outdated
21:28	dnolen	wingy: there's an up to date branch M003 or something.
21:30	wingy	dnolen: yeah
21:31	wingy	dnolen: im not very good at git . do you know how i fetch that branch?
21:31	gfredericks	git fetch; git branch -a; git co branch-name
21:32	gfredericks	by "co" I mean "checkout"
21:34	wingy	gfredericks: thanks
21:34	wingy	https://github.com/brentonashworth/one/tree/M003
21:34	wingy	it says that i should run lein bootstrap but there is not such task
21:35	kovasb	dnolen: the dsl is describing the relationships better, but overloading the existing the constructs of clojure to do it doesn't quite cut it
21:37	kovasb	dnolen: reminded of how the reducers library deconstructs the concept of map. need something like that for programming constructs in this domain
21:37	dnolen	kovasb: hmm, RxJS really doesn't look that bad.
21:38	dnolen	kovasb: I'm looking at drag & drop, http://theburningmonk.com/2011/03/drag-and-drop-using-reactive-extensions-for-javascript/
21:38	cbrozefsky	wingy: bootstrap is a addon for lein or part of lein2, I can't recall specifics
21:38	cbrozefsky	you'll also need git-deps
21:39	wingy	cbrozefsky: git-deps?
21:39	dnolen	kovasb: for starters I wonder if simply attaching observers could be made functional.
21:39	wingy	http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.java.clojure.user/57636
21:40	cbrozefsky	you want lein2
21:40	wingy	"I suspect it's an incompatibility with lein2. Try leiningen 1.x."
21:40	wingy	:(
21:40	cbrozefsky	oh the other way? I don't think so
21:40	wingy	im on lein2
21:40	kovasb	dnolen: that part is a good idea
21:40	cbrozefsky	hehe
21:40	dnolen	kovasb: (subscribed (observable x)) returns a new observable, no mutation of the observe list.
21:40	dnolen	er subscribe.
21:40	wingy	noway i got back to lein 1
21:41	cbrozefsky	http://clojurescriptone.com/documentation.html#leiningen.bootstrap
21:41	cbrozefsky	so if I am correct, those come in as files lein will load up
21:41	cbrozefsky	you know, you can download lein 1.X call the script lein1
21:41	cbrozefsky	and run it
21:41	kovasb	dnolen: definitely a better idea than attaching event handlers for sure
21:42	cbrozefsky	that's what i do
21:42	cbrozefsky	wingy you can also just try running "lein deps; lein git-deps"
21:42	cbrozefsky	but I bet the git-deps will fail
21:42	wingy	yeah there is no such task
21:42	wingy	wtf
21:43	wingy	i dont get this
21:43	cbrozefsky	Well, CL One goes against the suggestions of the lein maintainers, this is what happens
21:43	wingy	a pity i was looking forward to this
21:44	cbrozefsky	you can also get rid of the git deps, replace them with proper deps
21:44	cbrozefsky	ad skip git-deps and bootstrap alltogether
21:44	dnolen	kovasb: I suppose there still a bit of a resource problem. (observable x) still needs to mutate x.
21:44	cbrozefsky	wingy: sorry dude
21:44	wingy	cbrozefsky: i dont have the experience to do so
21:44	cbrozefsky	its clojure and domina it wants right?
21:45	wingy	ill just watch for other tutorials
21:45	cbrozefsky	open project.clj
21:45	cbrozefsky	look, learning your packaging tools it part of it 8)
21:45	cbrozefsky	I'll walk you thought
21:46	dnolen	kovasb: tho I'm not sure that's actually a real problem ...
21:46	cbrozefsky	open up project.clj, see where the git-dependencies statement is
21:46	cbrozefsky	remove that, and then see where the :dependencies list is?
21:47	kovasb	dnolen: i don't think its a problem
21:47	kovasb	dnolen: my problem is not what these things do, its what they don't do
21:47	dnolen	kovasb: ?
21:47	kovasb	dnolen: they don't really help you with higher-level representations
21:48	wingy	cbrozefsky: and next?
21:48	kovasb	dnolen: like, i want the changes to have an effect on a more abstract structure
21:48	kovasb	dnolen: and then percolate the changes down
21:48	cbrozefsky	add dependencies for domina
21:48	dnolen	kovasb: does Rx not handle that?
21:48	kovasb	dnolen: its just a more elegant way of handling events, not a way of keeping representations in sync
21:50	kovasb	dnolen: responding to events is different from generating a representation from scratch
21:50	cbrozefsky	and clojurescript
21:51	dnolen	kovasb: what's the simplest example of something you find problematic?
21:52	kovasb	dnolen: representing a hiccup datastructure as a dom element
21:52	wingy	cbrozefsky: https://clojars.org/ibdknox/clojurescript ?
21:52	cbrozefsky	wingy: I'll put my project.clj in a gist
21:52	wingy	why is it on ibdknox namespace :)
21:52	cbrozefsky	it just worked for me
21:52	kovasb	dnolen: you update your hiccup structure.. and then what
21:53	cbrozefsky	https://gist.github.com/3126459
21:53	cbrozefsky	that is the project.clj I used for one
21:53	cbrozefsky	replace yours with that
21:53	kovasb	same problem for any higher level representation that needs to be compiled to a lower level one
21:53	cbrozefsky	I then, with lein2, did: lein deps; lein repl
21:53	cbrozefsky	and it appears to work
21:54	cbrozefsky	that is as far as I tested it at least
21:54	cbrozefsky	wingy: good luck 8)
21:54	dnolen	kovasb: right you're talking about the problem that you want to listen at the level of hiccup?
21:55	kovasb	dnolen: thats one way to put it
21:55	kovasb	dnolen: in the case of the drag and drop example, i would want the coordinates in my hiccup to change
21:55	kovasb	dnolen: and then the dom would just react accordingly
21:55	wingy	cbrozefsky: it says Could not find artifact org.clojure:clojurescript:pom:0.0-1069 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)
21:56	wingy	and all other
21:58	cbrozefsky	lein2 clean
21:58	cbrozefsky	lein2 deps
21:58	cbrozefsky	that is an old version
21:58	cbrozefsky	and that doesn't appear in that project.clj I gave you
21:59	kovasb	dnolen: if you have that, then you can build higher level declarative stuff, like the thing the drag and drop represents
21:59	dnolen	kovasb: hmm what's the problem with the Pods approach? You can (manipulate immutable-hiccup) -> mutable hiccup which handles synchronization. any attempt to read produces something persistent?
21:59	wingy	cbrozefsky: thats the weird part .. why is it trying to get that one
21:59	wingy	i onlu changed clj version to 1.4
21:59	cbrozefsky	old dep data around?
22:00	kovasb	dnolen: yes, but how do you write the synchronization function
22:00	kovasb	dnolen: thats the missing piece
22:01	kovasb	dnolen: in a way that is built up from some reasonable constructs, not some ugly hack that is a pain to write every time
22:01	kovasb	dnolen: and not special-cased to the dom
22:02	cbrozefsky	kovasb: so you don't want to rerender the hiccup and then replace it wholesale in the dom, right?
22:02	wingy	impossible i deleted it and git clone it again
22:02	wingy	still the same
22:02	dnolen	kovasb: ? I don't see the problem. The hiccup has to be annotated somehow with events.
22:02	kovasb	cbrozefsky: no, that would be easy, but too slow
22:02	cbrozefsky	wingy: did you copy that project.clj I linked too into the dir
22:03	wingy	yeah i used your one
22:03	cbrozefsky	ok, and when you git clone again you nuked it
22:03	wingy	yeah
22:03	wingy	but i checkout the remotes/origin/M003 branch
22:04	wingy	perhaps that one is weird?
22:04	cbrozefsky	I have no clue what you are talking about now
22:04	dnolen	kovasb: it doesn't sound like to me for interaction you need the whole structure - only for serialization right?
22:04	kovasb	dnolen: the problem is you are translating between mutable and immutable things
22:04	kovasb	dnolen: with some fairly involved logic
22:04	cbrozefsky	kovasb: yah, so rendering the whole thing is costly, however, if you know what you changed, and then can ap that to the DOM, like say, via IDs...
22:05	kovasb	dnolen: and you need to update the mutable thing in the correct way
22:05	wingy	fuck this
22:05	dnolen	kovasb: I guess I don't see the problem. Mutating is easy. Annotating is easy. Copying is easy. What else is needed?
22:05	cbrozefsky	kovasb: ok, so your hiccup data structure is manipulated via something using a tree zipper to get around
22:05	wingy	if its that hard to use it perhaps its not meant for me
22:05	kovasb	cbrozefsky: yes, you can do it, but we want to do it not just for the DOM, but at higher levels of abstraction as well
22:05	wingy	i dont even know why i wanna use it
22:06	wingy	ill read some other tutorials how to use cljs
22:06	cbrozefsky	kovasb: when you make a change, you san back up the list for your the elements that are tagged with an ID, you make a list of them
22:06	dnolen	kovasb: at no point have I mentioned the DOM - that's part of the event architecture.
22:06	cbrozefsky	you can then render just those fragements and update the same elements in the DOM
22:06	dnolen	kovasb: events are constraints that keep things in sync.
22:06	ibdknox	dnolen: kovasb: I think we need to take a step back, because the FRP discussion seems like 4-5 different problems
22:06	cbrozefsky	or whatever other structure you want to sync with
22:06	kovasb	dnolen: think about how complex the logic is for the hiccup-to-dom function
22:06	ibdknox	and we're conflating their solutions
22:07	kovasb	dnolen: how do you trace through that logic and determine the exact mutation that should occur
22:07	kovasb	dnolen: when a tiny piece of your hiccup changes
22:07	dnolen	ibdknox: agreed. Events is one thing. Abstracting data structures is another.
22:07	dnolen	kovasb: you don't need to trace. You have events mutating a mutable thing.
22:07	kovasb	i am ignoring events here
22:07	ibdknox	dnolen: if you guys can wait until after my oscon presentation (thursday) I'll chime in with something
22:08	kovasb	suppose your hiccup changes because you got new data from the database
22:08	cbrozefsky	ibdknox: thanx for noir, jayq, korma 8^)
22:08	ibdknox	cbrozefsky: np :)
22:08	null-	you are still working on noir?
22:08	dnolen	ibdknox: excellent :)
22:08	kovasb	ibdknox: will there be a live stream?
22:08	ibdknox	dnolen: kovasb: but I think we should center the discussion around the code we want to write - it's not clear to me what that is quite yet
22:08	ibdknox	then worry about the "how" ;)
22:09	kovasb	right
22:09	dnolen	kovasb: I think I'm forgetting to say something here.
22:09	kovasb	i want to write high-level tagged literal representations of the UI
22:09	ibdknox	kovasb: I don't think so.. I think they're trying to sell videos or something
22:09	kovasb	ibdknox: self-record your screen and audio :)
22:10	ibdknox	null-: not focusing on it, Raynes has been helping me there, but I use it for Light Table so it's not ignored completely by any means
22:10	dnolen	kovas: in my mind you have annotated hiccup -> DOM. When we put it in the DOM we get back something which we can read which can reconstruct the hiccup (I personally don't see another way).
22:10	dnolen	kovasb: kind of like working with source code, parse / unparse
22:11	kovasb	dnolen: I'm thinking of e.g., the slider example - you move the slider, a value changes, and then you need to update another graphics based on that new value
22:11	dnolen	kovasb: but all that happens in the mutable world. But you'll get back handles that reconstruct the Hicucp.
22:11	null-	ibdknox: ok cool
22:12	ibdknox	it's safe to assume it's not going anywhere, if that's your concern
22:12	kovasb	dnolen: yeah, i get that. but you need to be able to change your models in other ways as well
22:12	dnolen	kovasb: an example you have in mind you haven't mentioned so far?
22:12	kovasb	dnolen: hiccup is just a very low level example of a model. but it captures the essential point
22:13	kovasb	dnolen: sure, pretty much every construct in session
22:13	kovasb	dnolen: the loops, the sub sessions, the session
22:14	kovasb	dnolen: higher-level widgets of various sort
22:14	kovasb	dnolen: graphics
22:15	kovasb	dnolen: those should all be declarative things, that get recursively expanded to lower and lower level representations
22:15	null-	ibdknox: yeah, good to know
22:15	dnolen	kovasb: I don't see how the unparse / parse model doesn't support those as well. Your issues seem to be completely about serialization. But maybe I missing something.
22:16	kovasb	dnolen: a representation may not contain all the info needed to reconstruct
22:17	kovasb	dnolen: for instance toggling detail level
22:17	dnolen	kovasb: why wouldn't it have that?
22:17	kovasb	dnolen: like, you are zoomed in an an area of the graph
22:17	kovasb	dnolen: not showing the whole thing
22:18	kovasb	dnolen: i mean, in general you don't want to have only a 1-to-1 model-view relationship
22:18	kovasb	dnolen: where you only have exactly one view for the model
22:18	dnolen	kovasb: but something is storing that state, regardless of whether it's on the graph itself or not.
22:19	kovasb	dnolen: yes
22:19	dnolen	@(go! graph-of-constraints) -> copy
22:19	kovasb	not following
22:20	dnolen	kovasb: you start with a data rep + constraints (events), go! realizes it (puts it in the DOM), you need to serialize - start at the root producing the immutable copy.
22:21	kovasb	dnolen: you think we should get rid of models and just store all the data in the dom?
22:21	devth	how would you transform [1 2 3 4] into {1 1, 2 2, 3 3, 4 4}?
22:22	dnolen	kovasb: this is what I mean about a parse / unparse model
22:22	dnolen	hiccup can parse to DOM
22:22	dnolen	but DOM can't unparse to hiccup
22:22	kovasb	ok
22:22	dnolen	so make the DOM smart enough to unparse itself.
22:22	brehaut	,(mapcat (juxt identity identity) [1 2 3 4])
22:22	clojurebot	(1 1 2 2 3 ...)
22:22	kovasb	ok, yes, you can try to do that
22:22	kovasb	that is basically what mathematica does
22:23	devth	brehaut: ty
22:23	dnolen	kovasb: I guess I don't see any other way. It's also a pretty tried and true way with compilers :)
22:23	kovasb	right
22:24	kovasb	i mean, fair enough
22:24	kovasb	I'm trying to invent something new in this department
22:24	kovasb	:)
22:24	kovasb	its intuitive to me why i want it, maybe not to others
22:25	dnolen	kovasb: heh, it seems to me a protocols really wouldn't be enough - you'd need some kind of specialized data structure - and I'm not sure it would work for all cases.
22:25	kovasb	though i think its a good argument that 1) you want models distinct from views and 2) you want it to be easy to create layers of abstraction
22:25	dnolen	kovasb: putting things in the DOM is fast - based on your use case you don't need to unparsing all the time.
22:25	kovasb	dnolen: yes protocols are not enough
22:26	dnolen	kovasb: do you need to unparse on every mouse movement? I doubt it. Only at mouse up.
22:26	dnolen	you've got about 300ms to unparse after a mouseup before a human notices.
22:26	dnolen	I don't see any challenges here.
22:26	brehaut	devth: a more sensible implementation uses (partial repeat 2) in place of (juxt
22:27	kovasb	dnolen: I'm less worried about going from dom to data than from data to dom
22:27	kovasb	dnolen: the assumption here is your program is dealing at the level of abstract logic, and updating clojure data
22:28	kovasb	dnolen: so low level dom events get converted into something with semantic meaning
22:28	dnolen	kovasb: I'm not so sure.
22:28	kovasb	dnolen: and which then in turn changes some data
22:28	kovasb	dnolen: i mean, thats the backbone way right :)
22:29	dnolen	kovasb: I think you want to bridge the two worlds in a way that's not necessary.
22:29	dnolen	declare your mutable world - run it - get immutable copies is what I'm suggesting.
22:29	dnolen	don't make it chatty.
22:29	kovasb	dnolen: its not necessary, since people have been writing apps the old fashioned way forever
22:30	kovasb	dnolen: i think the update interval is an optimization
22:30	dnolen	kovasb: well gotta run for a bit - let's chat on Wednesday :)
22:30	kovasb	dnolen: cool, talk to you later!
22:39	gnarmis	hey does anyone know where clojure.contrib.string went in the whole 1.3 diaspora?
22:39	aperiodic	clojure.string
22:39	gnarmis	ah really?
22:39	aperiodic	yup
22:40	gnarmis	was just looking for substring? in there
22:41	devth	brehaut: i really just wanted to know the function to use. the value of each item would actually be computed based on the key.
22:41	gnarmis	hmm can't find substring?, maybe it got renamed or deprecated or something
22:41	brehaut	subs
22:41	brehaut	or .substring
22:42	jweiss	is there a good reason Delay objects don't support metadata? or just that no one has added it yet?
22:42	brehaut	oh, sorry missed the comma there
22:42	aperiodic	i don't thing substring? made the trip
22:43	gnarmis	hmm ok, .substring's there i guess
22:44	aperiodic	(def substring? [needle haystack] (>= (.indexOf haystack needle) 0)))
22:44	aperiodic	s/def/defn/
22:45	devth	brehaut: so if i need to compute the value based on key, would i use this? (map #(hash-map %1 (* %1 %1)) [1 2 3 4])
22:45	brehaut	devth: im not sure what you are doing sorry
22:46	devth	brehaut: ok np. that code works - i just don't know if it's idiomatic.
22:46	devth	,(map #(hash-map %1 (* %1 %1)) [1 2 3 4])
22:46	clojurebot	({1 1} {2 4} {3 9} {4 16})
22:46	gnarmis	awesome, was about to do something with indexof
22:47	gnarmis	although re-seq seems even more handy
22:50	devth	actually that doesn't work. i want {1 1, 2 4, 3 9}. arg, so rusty after not touching clojure in several months :(
22:52	brehaut	,(into {} (map (fn [i] [i (* i i)]) [1 2 3 4]))
22:52	clojurebot	{1 1, 2 4, 3 9, 4 16}
23:02	amalloy	'into and 'for go together like bagels and cream cheese though, guys! ##(into {} (for [i [1 2 3 4]] [i (* i i)]))
23:03	lazybot	⇒ {1 1, 2 4, 3 9, 4 16}
23:03	devth	brehaut, amalloy thanks!
23:05	dsrguru	in common clojure style are earmuffs only used for thread-local dynamic vars or do they get used for things like agents too?
23:09	amalloy	earmuffs strongly suggest dynamic vars
23:16	dsrguru	amalloy: so for agents in web app code that get read from and written to by each browser session, don't use earmuffs, correct?
23:16	amalloy	right
23:16	dsrguru	thanks
23:22	iDesperadO	what's the problem of my gcd function?(defn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd [(rem b a) a]))). when I call it with (rgcd [24 36]), the repl errs me with a ArityException
23:23	tmciver	(defn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd (rem b a) a))) ;; lose the square brackets on the recursive call.
23:24	iDesperadO	(clojure.core/defn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd [(rem b a) a])))
23:24	iDesperadO	sorry about that
23:25	whamied	The problem is that you're passing in a vector as an argument
23:25	dsrguru	as in call it with (rgcd 24 36)
23:25	whamied	right
23:26	whamied	arity is the number of parameters, the problem is you're passing in only one as opposed to the two you specify
23:26	iDesperadO	I've both passed the arguments as vector and as individual numbers...both errs the same error exception
23:26	whamied	right, the recursive call is also a vector
23:26	whamied	(rgcd [(rem b a) a])
23:27	dsrguru	it should say (clojure.core/defn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd (rem b a) a)))
23:27	whamied	so, lose the square brackets, as tmciver said above
23:28	dsrguru	(you don't need the clojure.core; I was just copying what you wrote)
23:28	dsrguru	(unless you've redefined defn in the current namespace, but I hope you didn't)
23:28	iDesperadO	so..that's the problem of my definition when i call the rgcd passing a vector instead of two actual arguments?
23:28	dsrguru	it would be fine if you had written (defn rgcd [[a b]] ...
23:28	dsrguru	but the parameter list that defn takes
23:28	dsrguru	doesn't create a single vector parameter
23:29	dsrguru	it creates any number of separate parameters
23:29	dsrguru	that's just how it works
23:29	dsrguru	so (defn foo [a] a)
23:29	dsrguru	is a function of single arity
23:29	dsrguru	one parameter
23:29	amalloy	iDesperadO: the problem is that (f x y) is not the same as (f [x y])
23:29	dsrguru	and it returns that one parameter
23:29	dsrguru	amalloy: I think iDesperad0 is confused because in the call to defn, you enclose the parameter list with square brackets
23:30	dsrguru	so iDesperadO might think that the parameter list is specifying something like a destructured vector
23:30	dsrguru	iDesperadO: it's just the grammar of the Clojure language that you put square brackets around the parameters when you define the function using defn
23:31	dsrguru	but that creates a function
23:31	dsrguru	that gets called with those parameters as separate arguments
23:31	dsrguru	so (defn add [a b] (+ a b)) gets called (+ 3 4) not (+ [3 4])
23:32	iDesperadO	then my second wonder is if the calling part is not right, why the repl didn't errs right after my finishing the definition?
23:32	dsrguru	can you paste the definition you're referring to right now?
23:32	iDesperadO	user=> (clojure.core/defn rgcd [a b] (if (= a 0) b (rgcd [(rem b a) a])))
23:33	iDesperadO	#'user/rgcd
23:33	iDesperadO	user=> (rgcd [24user=> (rgcd [24 36]) 36])
23:33	dsrguru	because the recursive call (rgcd [(rem b a) a]) part
23:33	dsrguru	hasn't been evaluated yet
23:33	iDesperadO	ArityException Wrong number of args (1) passed to: user$rgcd clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
23:33	dsrguru	when you define it
23:33	dsrguru	so even though the function isn't correct
23:33	iDesperadO	hasn't been evaluated...hmm...lazy evaluation right?
23:33	dsrguru	it generates a runtime error
23:33	dsrguru	not a compile-time error
23:33	dsrguru	well no
23:34	dsrguru	it's just that you haven't called rgcd
23:34	dsrguru	so
23:34	dsrguru	first you type the code in
23:34	dsrguru	the (defn rgcd ...) stuff
23:34	dsrguru	then clojure reads when you typed
23:34	dsrguru	and it assigns the function you defined
23:34	dsrguru	to the name rgcd
23:34	dsrguru	but it doesn't execute the function yet
23:35	dsrguru	then once you try actually running it
23:35	dsrguru	such as (rgcd 24 36)
23:35	iDesperadO	Oh...first read, then compile, then evaluate...
23:35	dsrguru	yes
23:35	dsrguru	well
23:35	iDesperadO	i get it
23:35	dsrguru	it reads defn
23:35	dsrguru	and it evaluates defn
23:35	iDesperadO	thank you guys
23:35	dsrguru	but it doesn't exexute the function yet
23:35	cshell	it defines a function
23:36	cshell	and binds it to the sybol rgcd
23:36	dsrguru	evaluating defn just means compile the function and assign it to the name rgcd
23:36	dsrguru	when you type (rgcd 24 36)
23:36	dsrguru	the repl reads that just like it did the defn expression
23:36	iDesperadO	so I should still define a function with parameters in a vector or just list them....I'm afraid I want to vector form....since I can expand the arity using a & when i need it
23:36	dsrguru	and then it evaluates it
23:36	dsrguru	and when it evaluates it
23:36	dsrguru	it tries running the function
23:36	dsrguru	and sees the problem
23:37	dsrguru	yes parameters get defined in square brackets
23:37	dsrguru	you're just listing them
23:37	dsrguru	but in square brackets
23:37	dsrguru	but the way defn is defined, the function created is not taking a single argument of vector type
23:38	dsrguru	but rather as many arguments as you enclosed in the square brackets in your defn expression
23:38	iDesperadO	so ...it's just two phases. read/evaluate(compile and run), right?
23:38	dsrguru	essentially
23:38	dsrguru	yes
23:38	dsrguru	but they're not always separate phases
23:39	iDesperadO	dsrguru: ok, I define with parameters in vectors and call it with individual arguments listed one by one...
23:39	dsrguru	yes
23:39	dsrguru	the reason btw that they're not always separate phases
23:39	iDesperadO	because we can use a macro?
23:39	dsrguru	yes
23:39	dsrguru	so for example
23:40	iDesperadO	to stop evaluation at the moment?
23:40	dsrguru	during the reading of (defn ...)
23:40	dsrguru	the repl says
23:40	dsrguru	oh wait
23:40	dsrguru	defn is a macro
23:40	dsrguru	so let me translate this whole expression into something else
23:40	dsrguru	before evaluating it
23:40	dsrguru	and certain expressions
23:40	dsrguru	like regexp patters
23:40	dsrguru	can be evaluated at read-time
23:40	dsrguru	and you can call the read function
23:40	iDesperadO	Oh
23:40	dsrguru	which reads
23:40	dsrguru	when it is evaluated
23:40	dsrguru	so like
23:41	dsrguru	boundaries are kinda flexible
23:41	dsrguru	unlike non-lisps
23:41	dsrguru	where you can't easily interact with different phases of compilation at runtime
23:42	iDesperadO	hm....code is data is code...as Fogus says in the book The Joy of Clojure
23:42	dsrguru	exactly!
23:43	iDesperadO	ah...my function is right
23:43	dsrguru	good
23:44	iDesperadO	and ... I'm wondering the calling part of rgcd is at tail position?
23:44	iDesperadO	it's at the else part of it with is the body of the function
23:44	iDesperadO	I guess it is
23:45	iDesperadO	so it can be optimized
23:45	dsrguru	yes
23:46	dsrguru	but had you put the recursive call to rgcd inside of the call to rem, it would not be
23:46	iDesperadO	it's at the else part of if statement which is the body of the function...sorry for my typos...
23:46	dsrguru	except
23:46	dsrguru	in clojure
23:47	dsrguru	there's no tail-call optimization :)
23:47	dsrguru	you'd have to use loop/recur
23:47	dsrguru	but it is in tail position in your example
23:47	dsrguru	so it would be optimized in, say, scheme
23:47	iDesperadO	so a better implementation of rgcd is to use recur, I guess
23:48	iDesperadO	I'm confused by recur...esp. with loop
23:49	dsrguru	it'll be confusing in this example
23:50	dsrguru	let's use an example more suited to loop/recur
23:50	dsrguru	have you seen the factorial function implemented in clojure or another functional language?
23:50	dsrguru	(or recursively in any language for that matter)
23:51	iDesperadO	ah...I can't understand others implementation using loop and recur..but I can't write my own
23:51	dsrguru	so first start with something where tail recursion makes sense
23:51	dsrguru	like
23:51	iDesperadO	I'm writing a better version of rgcd using loop and recur and kinda stuck
23:51	dsrguru	the simplest factorial implementation
23:51	dsrguru	would be:
23:52	dsrguru	(defn factorial [n] (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (factorial (inc n)))))
23:52	iDesperadO	(defn fact [n] (if (= n 0) 1 (fact (- n 1)))?
23:52	dsrguru	*dec n
23:52	dsrguru	should be
23:52	iDesperadO	forget to multiply by n
23:52	dsrguru	(defn factorial [n] (if (= n 0) 1 (* n (factorial (dec n)))))
23:52	iDesperadO	ok
23:52	dsrguru	yeah
23:52	dsrguru	(dec n) means (- n 1)
23:52	lazybot	⇒ -1
23:52	dsrguru	what you said
23:52	dsrguru	yeah
23:53	dsrguru	so
23:53	dsrguru	if we called let's say (factorial 2)
23:53	dsrguru	we'd be evaluating:
23:53	dsrguru	(* 2 (factorial (dec 2)))
23:53	dsrguru	which itself evaluates to
23:54	dsrguru	(* 2 (factorial 1))
23:54	dsrguru	and then (* 1 (* 2 (factorial 0)))
23:54	iDesperadO	(* 2 (factorial 1) -> (* 2 (* 1 (factorial 0)))
23:54	iDesperadO	and it evaluate to base case
23:54	dsrguru	right
23:54	dsrguru	so
23:55	dsrguru	a bunch of stuff has to be evaluated
23:55	dsrguru	before getting to the base case
23:55	dsrguru	of (factorial 0)
23:55	iDesperadO	so how to change that to use loop and recur?
23:55	dsrguru	so what you could do is
23:55	dsrguru	(defn fac [n]
23:56	dsrguru	(loop [new-n n
23:56	iDesperadO	loop to binding variable recur to call from intermediate phases...
23:56	dsrguru	acc 0]
23:56	dsrguru	(if (= new-n 0)
23:56	dsrguru	acc
23:57	dsrguru	(recur (dec new-n) (* new-n acc))))))
23:57	dsrguru	so
23:57	dsrguru	loop sets up temporary let-style bindings
23:57	Raynes	https://www.refheap.com
23:57	dsrguru	but also says everything inside here is a function
23:58	dsrguru	and then it can be called recursively by the keyword recur
23:58	iDesperadO	(defn fact [n] (loop [new-n n acc 0] (if (= new-n 0) acc (recur (dec new-n) (* new-n acc)))))
23:59	dsrguru	you could use n instead of new-n btw since you never need to refer to the old n value
23:59	dsrguru	so
23:59	dsrguru	(defn fact [n] (loop [n n acc 0] (if (= n 0) ...
23:59	dsrguru	should work too
23:59	iDesperadO	I usually don't know what to bind and when to recur
23:59	dsrguru	and then every time you type n
23:59	dsrguru	it will evaluate to the n defined inside loop
23:59	dsrguru	not the old when
23:59	dsrguru	oh
23:59	dsrguru	kk