#clojure – 2012-06-25

2012-06-25

00:09	SrPx	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure From an Emacs buffer inside a project, invoke M-x clojure-jack-in <---- what??
00:09	lazybot	SrPx: Definitely not.
00:09	SrPx	what??
00:09	lazybot	SrPx: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
00:09	SrPx	what?
00:09	clojurebot	what is wrong with you
00:09	SrPx	what
00:09	SrPx	what??
00:09	lazybot	SrPx: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
00:09	SrPx	what?
00:09	clojurebot	what is meta
00:09	SrPx	what???
00:09	lazybot	SrPx: Yes, 100% for sure.
00:09	SrPx	so lazybot handles >2 '?'s
00:10	SrPx	test??
00:10	lazybot	SrPx: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:10	clojurebot	42
00:10	SrPx	o.o
00:10	SrPx	????
00:10	SrPx	???
00:10	lazybot	SrPx: How could that be wrong?
00:10	SrPx	are you a good bot??
00:10	lazybot	SrPx: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:11	SrPx	( :
00:11	bbloom	lol, this is an entertaining exchange
00:11	SrPx	so, anyone? please how do I open emacs buffer inside a project? I already have the project.
00:12	SrPx	oh wait, clojurebot is a person?
00:13	SrPx	test?
00:13	clojurebot	,(let [testar (fn [x y] (cond (= (reduce + (filter odd? (range 0 x))) y) (str y " is an square perfect")) )] (testar 11 25))
00:13	SrPx	oh, not.
00:13	SrPx	nobody? )=
00:14	zerokarmaleft	SrPx: just open a file inside the project directory, e.g. project.clj
00:15	mmarczyk	SrPx: you need to open one of the project's files
00:15	antares_	SrPx: if you are talking about clojure-jack-in, just open any file under your project's directory
00:15	mmarczyk	SrPx: then you should be able to clojure-jack-in from the buffer into which that file will be loaded
00:18	mmarczyk	alternatively you can run `lein swank` in the project's directory (assuming you've got swank-clojure installed as a lein plugin or in the project's deps -- the latter approach is currently discouraged) and M-x slime-connect, which is my preferred method of diving into slime
00:19	michaelr525	diving into slime..
00:19	michaelr525	:)
00:20	brainproxy	anyone played/ing with NetKernel? just heard about it, sounds interesting, oreilly just published a book, looks like some folks were working on clojure integration some time ago...
00:20	michaelr525	what's netkernel?
00:21	mmarczyk	yes... I've also got a proper setup for M-x slime for when I just want to splash around :-)
00:23	cmajor7	what is the way of tying an atom to a dom element?
00:23	cmajor7	(clojurescrupt)
00:23	cmajor7	*clojurescript
00:23	bbloom	cmajor7: what do you mean by "tying" ?
00:24	cmajor7	whenever a dom element's value changes, atom gets changed..
00:24	brainproxy	michaelr525: the idea seems to be to apply the REST architectural concepts to the level of an OS
00:24	bbloom	you don't need an atom for that, you can just hold a reference to the dom element directly
00:26	cmajor7	bbloom: right, but I still need to listen for an event.. right? the way I am doing it right now is through a "(delegate $body elem :event.. )" but I need to keep the state of several dom elements (e.g. in a form) in order to do validation / recalculation of the result etc…
00:26	cmajor7	so I was thinking of using atoms for that
00:26	SrPx	michaelr525: thank you but
00:27	SrPx	well. http://i.imgur.com/l39Ha.png
00:27	cmajor7	tie an atom to a dom element. whenever a dom (e.g. text input) value changes, the atom would get changed,..
00:27	cmajor7	and then the atom's watcher/validator can be used
00:27	bbloom	cmajor7: oh, you want the atom to contain the VALUE of the element?
00:28	cmajor7	bbloom: right, and watch that value
00:28	bbloom	cmajor7: there is no built in library to help with that, so the simplest thing to do is to just bind event handlers and call swap! or reset! on the atom
00:28	brainproxy	cmajor7: you could use addEventListener and bind a callback (lambda) which then updates the atoms value
00:29	SrPx	any idea why this is happening?
00:29	xeqi	SrPx: :plugins should be a vector of vectors, ie [[lein-swank "1.4.4"]]
00:30	cmajor7	brainproxy, bbloom: thx guys. so I would still need an "addEventListener", which (using jayq) is what I have in "(delegate $body elem :event.. )", right?
00:30	SrPx	xeqi: thanks. I cant believe I finally got this working
00:31	bbloom	cmajor7: i'm not familiar with jayq
00:31	brainproxy	cmajor7: also, the flapjax library implements a generalized approach to doing that kind of thing, with "eventstreams" and "behaviors"
00:31	brainproxy	cmajor7: however, I haven't tried mixing flapjax and clojurescript
00:31	bbloom	brainproxy: don't confuse the poor guy!
00:32	bbloom	FRP and friends is still a pretty open research problem. this guy's trying to get a simple form working :-)
00:32	brainproxy	bbloom: true, true ... I repent!
00:32	cmajor7	reading about flapjax.. yea, I would rather stick to clojurescript..
00:33	bbloom	i assume jayq is a wrapper of jquery. no? i'm not really sure if jquery is an appropriate match for the type of apps you'd build clojurescript
00:33	cmajor7	bbloom: thx for looking out, but I am no poor :)
00:33	brainproxy	cmajor7: .delegate has been superseded by .on
00:33	brainproxy	according to the jquery docs, that is
00:33	brainproxy	http://api.jquery.com/on/
00:34	cmajor7	brainproxy: yea, I saw that.. I got delegate working from an "overtone" example..
00:35	cmajor7	ok, just to summarize what I'll do. for each element of the form I am going to have a separate on/delegate handler that will change the state of a corresponding atom
00:35	cmajor7	does it sound reasonable?
00:35	bbloom	cmajor7: why one atom per item? why not one atom containing a map?
00:36	brainproxy	bbloom: btw, jquery/jayq and clojurescript can be good friends, at least in my experience so far
00:36	bbloom	cmajor7: clojure isn't anti-state, it's pro-carefully-considered-and-contained-state
00:36	cmajor7	bbloom: yea, I guess I could do that, it makes more sense to have a single atom per form
00:36	brainproxy	i.e. at some point you need to work w/ the DOM, and clojurescript doesnt' provide any inherent sugar for doing so
00:37	cmajor7	brainproxy: how do you guys approach a form validation?
00:37	brainproxy	cmajor7: server-side or client-side?
00:37	cmajor7	client side
00:37	bbloom	brainproxy: i just read the jayq README… i'm not convinced… but that's b/c i dont have the same arguments against it as those he combats. in particular, i'm using jquery for a large backbone.js app at my startup and i regret it. jquery is great for adding a little bit of magic to an otherwise static page. you need a less cut-point/aspect style of programming to work on larger rich client apps
00:39	cmajor7	bbloom: I am no front end expert, as you can see :) but I found jayq (simple defn wrappers over a subset of jquery) quite nicely complimenting clojurescript
00:39	brainproxy	bbloom: fair enough.. it will be be intersting to see if something grows up from the cljs community that offers a broad solution along the lines of extjs/sencha, ember, backbone, etc.
00:40	bbloom	brainproxy: yeah, that's something i want to work towards… a few things are missing… in particular, i think i'm going to need delimited continuations and a full "reactive extensions" type library
00:41	cmajor7	brainproxy, bbloom: I just find it rather very verbose to have an event handler that drills down to a "this-as" value resolution for _each_ element of the form to validate it correctly on the client side. do you guys have a magically simple way that you stick to to validate forms?
00:41	bbloom	brainproxy: async & reactive is something i'd like to see find it's way into clojure proper too, so it's gonna be a while before cljs gets there
00:42	brainproxy	bbloom: sure, we're on the same page with all that, as I think we've discussed previously :)
00:42	bbloom	brainproxy: ah right, that was you :-)
00:42	brainproxy	cmajor7: if you just want to get something working, maybe just drop in a jquery plugin for validation
00:42	brainproxy	cmajor7: e.g. http://docs.jquery.com/Plugins/Validation
00:43	ibdknox	just like in JVM clojure, we should take advantage of the things already built for us in JS
00:43	bbloom	cmajor7: it really depends on a few things. are you doing live validation or just on submit? do you need to validate between fields? like comparing password fields? etc
00:44	brainproxy	cmajor7: the plugin is still actively maintained, https://github.com/jzaefferer/jquery-validation/
00:44	bbloom	cmajor7: if i were doing a one off form validation, i'd probably do the simplest thing and bind several event handlers to a single callback function which polls the entire form and creates a map of the form, validates it all at once, and updates any validation ui
00:45	bbloom	cmajor7: hell, assuming your form is only a few fields you could simply do that in a setTimeout loop and it would be fine :-P
00:46	brainproxy	cmajor7: there may well be some piece/s you could pull in from goog that would provide form validation facilities
00:46	brainproxy	I'm not sure... haven't become a master of what all is available from goog
00:47	bbloom	brainproxy: presumably anything having to do with validation in goog would require you use the controls lib, which has a robust dispose model that doesn't play nice with external dom manipulation
00:48	brainproxy	bbloom: ah, gotcha
00:48	cmajor7	e.g. for each element an event handler that also retrieves a value of the element it is as verbose as: refheap.com/paste/3309 (from overtone example).
00:48	cmajor7	brainproxy: I already have "something" working follow the "delegate" example. I am looking for a simple "field is numeric" / "minimum criteria is met" validation to happen directly on the client side on e.g. "off focus / select / click" events (no submit button)
00:48	cmajor7	bbloom: thx for an idea. the function that I have right now is indeed a single defn, its the event handlers in my example above that look rather verbose.. but maybe that is how it is in JS lang..
00:49	cmajor7	*land
00:51	brainproxy	cmajor7: i think that plugin covers the things you just indicated
00:52	brainproxy	but if you're not wanting to use a plugin for it, it seems like you're on the right track w/ what you posted on reheap
00:53	cmajor7	brainproxy: thx. that is for a validation logic (I used this plugin in pure JS some time ago, it is good, but I can just use a couple of "defn" instead to validate), I was looking to find a "guru blessed" approach..
00:55	cmajor7	bbloom, brainproxy: yep, ok. I'll change "delegate" to "on", and will use an atom map for the form. it's great to bounce ideas around, even if they are simple.. love it. thx guys.
00:55	bbloom	cmajor7: even if they are simple? what do you mean "even? simple is clearly better! :-)
00:55	cmajor7	I meant "too easy" for front end mastas
00:56	bbloom	heh
01:00	brainproxy	michaelr525: I use tmux also, but I haven't gotten very deep with it
01:05	lynaghk`	bbloom: are you going to be attending OSCON?
01:17	bbloom	lynaghk`: i'm not a big conference guy…
01:18	lynaghk`	bbloom: okay, just wondering if you'd make it easy for me to get you a beer by coming down to PDX
01:18	lynaghk`	bbloom: but it looks like I will have to take THE TRAIN.
01:19	bbloom	lynaghk`: do you owe me a beer debt? i've got some many positive and negative beer debts that i can't keep track any more
01:19	lynaghk`	bbloom: not that I know of---it'd just be a good excuse to talk with you about cljs reactive stuff
01:19	michaelr525	brainproxy: what do you use for prefix-key?
01:21	bbloom	lynaghk`: sounds good
01:21	brainproxy	michaelr525: the default... C-b
01:22	lynaghk`	bbloom: do you have any projects/code cooking in that space?
01:22	bbloom	lynaghk`: they are near the top of my queue. i keep getting distracted playing with the compiler though. every time i find a bug or dark corner, i just seem to lose hours of time there :-P
01:24	bbloom	lynaghk`: i'd like to build the full stack of cps/delimc/async/parallel/reactive/gui but each one of those steps is a massive project in it's own right
01:24	lynaghk`	bbloom: it's by no means "reactive", but I'm probably going to release some "computed-observables" stuff that I've been sitting on this week. I feel kind of shameful that I don't have anything better than "autodetect my atom-dependencies and add watchers for me", but that is already a lot more useful than what seems to be out there.
01:24	lynaghk`	bbloom: no kidding.
01:25	bbloom	lynaghk`: the dream is clearly something WPF-like
01:25	bbloom	minus the OOP and XML pattern explosion
01:25	lynaghk`	bbloom: I keep hearing about that. Sounds like I really should take a week off, find a windows VM, and figure out what's up.
01:25	bbloom	WPF is brilliant and awful all at the same time
01:26	michaelr525	brainproxy: i use c-b to move the cursor back in the repl, so i've changed it to c-x
01:27	bbloom	lynaghk`: i have various half finished compiler projects that are preventing me from really digging deep into it though
01:28	lynaghk`	bbloom: what are you working on with the compiler? I recall a while back you were fixing up some var handling stuff
01:29	bbloom	lynaghk`: i have an army of half finished branches in my local repo
01:29	bbloom	basically, every time i try to work towards that holy grail gui stack, i find a bug or inconsistency compared to clj on JVM
01:30	bbloom	so i go to fix that & wind up falling in a rabbit hole, get stuck, start two other things
01:30	bbloom	and before you know it, i've forgotten the first issue was all together and lost my place in the other project
01:30	bbloom	luckily, i'm allowed to do that, since these are hobby projects
01:30	lynaghk`	bbloom: do you have a particular application that's motivating this GUI stack?
01:30	bbloom	when i do real work, i actually focus :-P
01:31	bbloom	lynaghk`: not one for which my thoughts are baked enough to articulate yet :-)
01:32	michaelr525	,(into {} (map (fn [[key val]] {(name key) val}) {:a 1 :b 2}))
01:32	brainproxy	bbloom: lynaghk` the SCION guy is wrapping up his thesis on SCXML, should be finished soon... i look forward to reading it as i think scxml shows an interesting way to approach reactive programming
01:32	clojurebot	{"a" 1, "b" 2}
01:32	michaelr525	should i do the above or use a reduce?
01:32	lynaghk`	I've been having some trouble finding functional ways to model some GUI stuff. Lately I've resorted to just attaching atoms to shared DOM elements. That feels gross, but I haven't been able to think of more clojurey ways of doing stuff.
01:32	michaelr525	it's meant to stringify the keys of a map
01:32	brainproxy	i.e. a declarative approach
01:32	bbloom	brainproxy: that anything like storyboards in cocoa or the state machine thinggies in blend?
01:33	bbloom	lynaghk`: yeah, i think the main problem is that you can't just half ass the functional approach to a gui
01:33	bbloom	lynaghk`: it doesn't compose well with the dom, so you have to abstract the dom away
01:33	bbloom	lynaghk`: it's really hard. hence no one has done it well yet
01:33	brainproxy	bbloom: the README gives a good overview
01:33	brainproxy	https://github.com/jbeard4/SCION
01:33	bbloom	lynaghk`: but i think cljs is the major opportunity to do it
01:34	lynaghk`	bbloom: actually, my problem is not so much with DOM manipulation as it is with just having multiple things that I want to associate together
01:34	brainproxy	but like i said, he's wrapping up his thesis on the same subject matter, in which SCION features prominently
01:34	bbloom	lynaghk`: ?
01:34	lynaghk`	bbloom: but I don't want to end up with a record that implements a few dozen protocols.
01:35	bbloom	brainproxy: i know that i shouldn't, but i want to immediately reject any proposal that involves XML in any way
01:35	brainproxy	bbloom: well, there's not any reason that the same ideas couldn't be represented in another hypermedia base type
01:35	bbloom	brainproxy: hence, i'm still reading lol
01:36	brainproxy	e.g. might be interesting to try to translate SCXML over to JSON-LD
01:36	bbloom	<state id="idle"><onentry><script> …. CODE HERE --- that just makes me sick :-P
01:36	michaelr525	json-ld?
01:37	lynaghk`	bbloom: I can't really come up with a tidy example of the issue I'm having (it's in the context of a big project--which will eventually be open sourced, so you'll be able to see the mess I've made and maybe have suggestions then =P)
01:37	bbloom	brainproxy: yeah, this reminds me of the visual state manager in wpf
01:37	bbloom	brainproxy: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/wpfsdk/archive/2009/02/27/the-visualstatemanager-and-triggers.aspx
01:38	bbloom	i think that states & transitions are a critical part of a strong frp gui toolkit
01:39	bbloom	in particular, the trick is to view your app as a quasi-immutable composition of functions (only mutates during development) and then view the app state as a single atom
01:39	bbloom	basically, you're app is a giant render function glued to a deeply nested state machine
01:39	brainproxy	bbloom: i agree, but I think there's more to it than just straight up FRP
01:40	brainproxy	we want a rich, composable way to create bidirectional ties from/to network addressable resources and the DOM
01:40	brainproxy	which brings in the whole discipline of "lenses"
01:40	brainproxy	which I don't claim to really understand
01:40	bbloom	yeah, i don't expect the common development model to be working with frp primitives.
01:41	bbloom	i think lenses would be valuable, but i'm not sure they are appropriate for most types of GUIS… basically anything with a submit button doesn't like lenses
01:41	brainproxy	my gut instinct says the "path ahead" lies in generalizing and extending what the Flapjax guys started, and blending it together with an SCXML-like approach
01:41	lynaghk`	bbloom: that's exactly how I've structured some dashboard apps; used a custom state machine framework to model different screens as states and show/hiding appropriate DOM containers on enter/exit.
01:42	bbloom	lynaghk`: yeah, it's very video-game like :-)
01:42	brainproxy	bbloom: i don't see the why lenses can't be friends with submit buttons
01:42	bbloom	brainproxy: it's just that you have a discrete submit action, rather than two way binding
01:43	bbloom	brainproxy: two way binding is actually extremely uncommon in most UIs
01:43	brainproxy	a lens is just a way to express the rules to go back and forth between two representations
01:43	lynaghk`	bbloom: no experience doing game programming, but yeah--basically everything gets easier if you think of DATA ---fns---> VIEW.
01:44	bbloom	brainproxy: right, but 9/10 times, you only want one way or if you do want back-and-forth, both ways are identity
01:45	bbloom	it's pretty rare for functions to have true inverses when it comes to business logic
01:45	brainproxy	lenses don't need to be symmetric
01:46	bbloom	right, but if they aren't symmetric, then there are generally more than one possible asymmetric inverse
01:46	bbloom	and if there is more than one, you need to specify
01:46	brainproxy	i dunno, maybe you're right, I've got a handful of papers and whatnot to digest before I want to take another big stab at this stuff
01:46	bbloom	so at that point, you might as well just define [to from] as a 2-vector of functions and be done with it :-P
01:48	brainproxy	that being said, I see declarative two-way reactive bindings that can be applied to documents like unto stylesheets...
01:48	brainproxy	as being really killer :)
01:48	bbloom	:-)
01:48	bbloom	i thought you said spreadsheets, which would also be cool
01:48	bbloom	heh
01:49	brainproxy	no, what I mean is that I want something like <link ...> in my <head>...</head>
01:49	brainproxy	which automatically setups up two-way bindings between DOM stuff and resources on the server
01:49	bbloom	brainproxy: i dunno, i see this is as a popular trend now
01:50	bbloom	what with meteor
01:50	bbloom	and firebase and all that stuff
01:50	brainproxy	yeah but meteor is like the total opposite of hateoas
01:50	bbloom	but really, i've NEVER written an app that way
01:50	bbloom	two-way binding pretty much only ever applies to settings pages
01:50	brainproxy	i think the meteor approach, while interesting, is a big mistake
01:51	brainproxy	I want to build hypermedia apis, not RPC mashups
01:51	bbloom	eh, i'm not a big rest guy either
01:51	bbloom	:-P
01:51	brainproxy	then I hate you
01:51	brainproxy	:p
01:51	bbloom	haha
01:51	brainproxy	j/k :D
01:51	bbloom	my current startup's app is all RESTful and what not
01:52	bbloom	but really, i wish i had a socket :-P
01:52	brainproxy	sockets are cool!
01:52	brainproxy	but I think they should be limited mostly to telling clients that a resource on the server has changed
01:52	brainproxy	and the client should re-GET the representation
01:52	bbloom	brainproxy: eh. just b/c http forces that model on you doesn't mean you need to use it :-P
01:53	brainproxy	well i guess I buy into the hateoas stuff
01:53	bbloom	hateoas is that whole never need to construct a url thing right?
01:54	brainproxy	bbloom: well, i'm not sure one sentence can cover all the bases
01:54	brainproxy	but the idea is to build apis from the pov of the client
01:54	bbloom	brainproxy: heh, i'm not gonna repeat myself on REST, etc. i wrote a blog post to cover all this :-P http://blog.brandonbloom.name/2012/02/rest-one-thousand-inconsequential.html
01:54	brainproxy	and the client drives the state changes in the application, by way of the affordances in the hypermedia
01:55	brainproxy	bbloom: okay, will take a look, thanks
01:56	brainproxy	bbloom: for what it's worth, I think a lot of folks on both sides of the REST debate tend to miss the point
01:56	brainproxy	I like Amundsen't stuff
01:56	brainproxy	and I'm biased, I'll admit it
02:01	brainproxy	bbloom: let's talk about REST/HATEOAS sometime, maybe in another venue so as not to get too offtopic in #clojure
02:02	brainproxy	for now, I need to go to bed, need to get up early tomorrow and starting writing more clojure :)
02:02	bbloom	shrug i view the topic as a bit of a black hole. i'm interested in solving problems and all the REST/HATEOAS conversations are about fuzzy emotional FEELINGS about apis
02:02	brainproxy	well, I think in some ways you're batting at strawmen in what you wrote
02:03	brainproxy	I'm using hateoas principles to precisely to solve real world problems
02:04	brainproxy	namely, my coworker and I are working to wrap a "hypermedia api" (i.e. hateoas to the core) around a bear of an SOA/XML/SOAP specification
02:05	brainproxy	our being very deliberate about the hateoas-ness of it has nothing to do with feelings or ideals
02:06	bbloom	sounds like a good topic for a blog post ;-)
02:06	brainproxy	Mike Amundsen's book "Hypermedia APIs" had a big influence on us
02:07	brainproxy	he implements his examples with NodeJS and Couch, no clojure in sight, but he really nails the ideas and helped me to think differently about all this stuff
02:08	brainproxy	the book could have been edited somewhat better :/ that is my only hesitation in recommending it.. you need to be prepared to deal with problems in the example code, some sloppy editing here and there
02:09	brainproxy	bbloom: oh wait, just a sec, i have a link to major presentation he did recently, only slides available so far, but vid recording is supposed to be available sometime
02:20	brainproxy	bbloom: here you go, http://amundsen.com/talks/files/2012-06-21-qcon-amundsen-cost-benefits-hypermedia.zip
02:20	brainproxy	there's a PDF inside the zip file
02:21	bbloom	brainproxy: i'll read it a little later
02:21	Raynes	PDF in zip?
02:21	Raynes	Ew.
02:21	bbloom	Raynes: heh, yeah, probably doesn't provide much compression :-P
02:22	Raynes	Even if it did, I'd rather Chrome be able to render it in the browser than save a megabyte.
02:22	brainproxy	yeah, I don't get the pdf in zip thing, lol
02:23	bbloom	Raynes: eh, i turned that off after the 100th time chrome misrendered some characters
02:23	Raynes	Never seen anything like that.
02:24	bbloom	shrug it happens on both my macs, but none of my coworker's… no idea why. anyway, i prefer the experience of Preview anyway
02:24	Raynes	I'd like preview if it didn't take 2 years to start up.
02:24	bbloom	Raynes: upgrade to solid state :-)
02:59	muhoo	has anyone solved the problem in hiccup/ring of html checkboxes?
03:00	muhoo	like, how you uncheck them. because, unchecked checkboxes don't show up in the POST at all in html. i'd forgotten about that since so many frameworks have hacks to work around it automatically
03:03	bbloom	muhoo: so if i recall correctly, the trick is to use a hidden
03:04	bbloom	muhoo: <hidden name="foo" value="unchecked"/> <input type="checkbox" name="foo" checked="checked" value="checked"/>
03:04	bbloom	or something like that
03:04	muhoo	that sounds right, but i was hoping someone had already abstracted that machinery out into a function somewhere
03:06	bbloom	muhoo: just looked at rails… cringe soo many classes
03:06	bbloom	actionpack/lib/action_view/helpers/tags/check_box.rb
03:07	bbloom	muhoo: yeah, looks like it does exactly what i suggested :-)
03:08	muhoo	yep, that's what i remember seeing in rails and yii.
03:08	muhoo	thanks
05:38	michaelr525	when I (def a (.SomeClass))
05:38	michaelr525	a is shared among all threads, right?
05:40	llasram	Yep -- var root values are global across threads, as are namespaces
05:41	fantomex	should i learn clojure over javascript?
05:42	borkdude	can't wait for this book to come out =) http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920025139.do
05:42	llasram	Oooh, nice
05:42	borkdude	hmm, only 80 pages?
05:43	lucian	fantomex: for what?
05:43	michaelr525	i have some weird shit happening with a clojure app running under tomcat
05:43	llasram	borkdude: That's version compiled with optimizations. The human-readable version is longer
05:43	antares_	fantomex: they are typically used for different problems, so you should probably learn both.
05:43	borkdude	llasram hehe
05:44	fantomex	yeah that is a better idea lol
05:44	fantomex	thank you sir
05:45	lucian	even if you use clojurescript, javascript knowledge is necessary
05:46	fantomex	yeah i had wondered that.
05:50	michaelr525	after changing the (def a (.SomeClass)) to (defn a [] (.SomeClass)) the problems seems to disapear but i still got this printed once: ((ddoo ((-->> ((ddoottoo tteemmppllaattee ((..aadddd \"\"ddaattaa\"\" ddaattaa)))) ((..wwrriittee ww)))) ((..ttooSSttrriinngg ssww)))):: 89..952008410981 mmsseeccss
05:50	michaelr525	why could it happen?
05:51	michaelr525	it was printed instead of something like: (do (-> (doto template (.add \"data\" data)) (.write w)) (.toString sw)): 0.974985 msecs
05:53	llasram	michaelr525: Well def -> defn changes the var from holding an instance of SomeClass to a function returning a new instance each time it gets called...
05:53	michaelr525	yup
05:53	michaelr525	i know
05:53	llasram	Ok :-)
05:53	michaelr525	i don't understand where the giebriesh comes from?
05:54	llasram	Yeah, odd error is odd. Same code running in two different threads?
05:55	michaelr525	i use a macro to time the execution of a given code and and print it with the timing result, before changing def to defn i've got even more giebriesh printouts
05:55	michaelr525	llasram: i guess so, it's running under tomcat
05:56	michaelr525	so I guess tomcat spins multiple threads for multiple simultanous connections
05:58	michaelr525	giebriesh like this: (.g"e(t.IgnesttIannscteaOnfc e(Otfe m(ptleamtpelsa)t es\")P r\"oPdruocdtuPcatgPe\"a)g:e \"2)8:3 .201412.389796 0m9s emcsse"c
05:59	llasram	I'm going to have to go with demons
06:01	michaelr525	hrr
06:15	SrPx	is it possible to make rich clojure apps? images, drawing, 3d, event handling, and such?
06:17	_nmmn	why not?
06:47	borkdude	why does add-watch use a key?
06:48	borkdude	for example: (def a (atom 3)) -- (add-watch a :foo (fn [key ref old new] (println key ref old "new!" new)))
06:48	borkdude	why is the key needed?
06:57	mduerksen	borkdude: from the doc: "Keys must be unique per reference, and can be used to remove the watch with remove-watch, but are otherwise considered opaque by the watch mechanism."
06:57	borkdude	aaah
06:57	borkdude	of course, tnx
06:58	borkdude	to remove
06:58	mduerksen	jep
06:58	borkdude	but then why does the function gets the key as an arg
06:59	borkdude	so you can remove yourself after one call for example?
06:59	borkdude	but then it doesn't even need it as an arg
06:59	mduerksen	borkdude: so that the fn can discern from which watch it has been called, e.g. if the fn is used for several watches
07:00	borkdude	mduerksen ah right
07:00	samrat	what's the difference between using Math/sqrt and importing sqrt using (:use [clojure.math.numeric-tower :only (sqrt)]) ?
07:01	borkdude	samrat probably the source if the answer here
07:01	borkdude	is
07:02	samrat	borkdude: (source Math/sqrt) gives No source found
07:03	borkdude	https://github.com/clojure/math.numeric-tower/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/math/numeric_tower.clj
07:04	borkdude	samrat the difference is obviously that Math/sqrt always works with floats/doubles, and the numeric tower makes a version for several types
07:15	francis	I'
07:15	francis	I'
07:15	francis	facepalm
07:18	francis	I'm attempting to display an image in seesaw using a then :icon property on a jlabel. If I use a URI (label :icon http://stuff/myimage.jpg) no problems, however I cannot get it to display anything from my local file system.
07:18	francis	According to this thread https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!searchin/seesaw-clj/images/seesaw-clj/hPZ8ziAzItI/R0Xzh_MSHGYJ
07:20	francis	It's as easy as (label :icon (clojure.java.io/resource "dir/in/my/proj/image.jpg")) However I cannot get this to work. Has anyone else had issues with this?
07:22	francis	Also, I have tried using absolute paths, and whatever this ./ is called (relative path?)
07:23	francis	And got it working.
07:34	alfborge	Anyone know if enlive can select elements based on the elements children?
07:36	alfborge	I have a table with rows that are not identified by anything other than the contents, I want ta do stuff with the rows that has certain contents, but I can only find ways to get the child elements instead of the row I'm interested in.
07:46	gfredericks	alfborge: I believe it can
08:25	gfredericks	,`if
08:25	clojurebot	if
08:25	gfredericks	,`(foo if bar)
08:25	clojurebot	(sandbox/foo if sandbox/bar)
08:46	Chiron_	well, I know this is Clojure IRC but any body using hector-clj lib?
09:07	michaelr`	wtf dropbox?!
09:08	michaelr`	the biggest problem with the cloud is when it isn't working
09:26	edoloughlin	Anyone know if there are any screencasts of Emacs/Clojure workflow? I've attempted a few times to move to Emacs but couldn't see past the (lengthy) keyboard shortcuts and didn't get a sense of how it could make me more productive.
09:27	edoloughlin	I'm just looking for an overview of what's possible.
09:28	ro_st	cemerick: loved your 'what sucks about clojure talk'
09:29	ro_st	edoloughlin: i'd be happy to answer questions. i've just been through that process
09:30	ro_st	i'm not looking at cheatsheets any more, and i'm not swearing aloud either
09:30	cemerick	ro_st: thanks :-)
09:31	edoloughlin	ro_st: Thanks, but my problem is I don't know what questions to ask. I'd just like to see someone's workflow so I can see what I need to learn.
09:31	antares_	edoloughlin: maybe http://technomancy.us/149 will help
09:31	ro_st	cemerick: i'd love to read up on opinions about the 'right' way to tackle the (ns) form. right now, my ns's are a shamble
09:32	ro_st	and it's painful because i constantly have to feed it, which interrupts my primary train of thought all the time
09:32	antares_	edoloughlin: also, searching youtube for "emacs swank clojure" yields a bunch of tutorials and one google code jam session in emacs with clojure
09:33	cemerick	ro_st: Sticking with all :require forms with convenient aliases, and using the :refer option to require that's new in 1.4.0 is a good baseline.
09:34	ro_st	so prefer :require over :use?
09:34	ro_st	can i pass :only to :require?
09:34	ro_st	i've been using :only with :use and :as with :require
09:35	antares_	ro_st: :only makes no sense for :require but in 1.4 you can use :refer and it will do the same thing as use with :only
09:35	xumingmingv	can i call a super class's method in clojure?
09:35	ro_st	cool. i'll read up on refer
09:35	xumingmingv	like super.hello()
09:37	edoloughlin	antares_: Thanks.
09:38	antares_	xumingmingv: yes, it is possible, although I cannot immediately say where besides books you can find an example
09:41	xumingmingv	antares_, thanks
09:42	xumingmingv	I found a link here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9060127/how-to-invoke-superclass-method-in-a-clojure-gen-class-method
09:45	baoist	Has anyone had an issue with vimclojure in macvim freezing when "vimclojure#WantNailgun" is enabled?
09:54	michaelr525	i get compilation error but but the stacktrace ends with at clojure.lang.Compiler$InvokeExpr.eval(Compiler.java:3382)
09:54	michaelr525	... 48 more
09:54	michaelr525
09:54	michaelr525	how to get the rest of the stacktrace to see the source of the failure?
09:58	pjstadig	michaelr525: the "... 48 more" indicates that the "48 more" frames were the same as the frames above
09:58	pjstadig	http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Throwable.html#printStackTrace()
10:22	alfborge	I'd like something like the following that will return yes: (or "" "yes")
10:22	alfborge	I'm used to python where the empty string is considered false. Would be convenient here.
10:24	borkdude	alfborge everything nil or false is "logically false" in Clojure
10:24	borkdude	alfborge everything else is considered "logically true"
10:25	borkdude	alfborge you can however use the function blank? from clojure.string for something like this
10:25	alfborge	Yes, I get that. Was wondering what would be the idiomatic solution for this in clojure.
10:25	michaelr525	I get a long stacktrace which ends with this: at clojure.lang.Compiler$InvokeExpr.eval(Compiler.java:3382)
10:25	michaelr525	... 48 more
10:25	michaelr525	Compilation failed.
10:26	Frozenlock	I think ,,(emtpy? "") might also usefull
10:26	michaelr525	How to get the rest of it?
10:26	alfborge	borkdude: Using blank? means I need to use a let. Any way around that?
10:28	alfborge	As far as I can see, using blank? implies something like: (let x (fn1) (if (blank? x (fn2) x)))
10:28	borkdude	alfborge maybe something like this? &&(first (remove clojure.string/blank? ["" "yes"]))
10:28	borkdude	alfborge maybe something like this? ##(first (remove clojure.string/blank? ["" "yes"]))
10:28	lazybot	⇒ "yes"
10:28	alfborge	borkdude: makes sense
10:29	borkdude	I always forge this middle in the sentence notation…. why!
10:29	borkdude	forget
10:30	foxdonut	borkdude: because you need more coffee ;)
10:30	borkdude	foxdonut fh… I need more and more coffee… I think I need a vacation instead
10:31	Frozenlock	borkdude: Meaning you don't code in your vacactions? :P
10:31	borkdude	Frozenlock not when I'm on a trip, forced afk
10:33	borkdude	and a nice trip is coming up
10:34	borkdude	I guess the best approach to read through a (clojure/code) book is not to spend hours on details I don't understand (or maybe due to lack of coffee/brainpower) but to continue
10:34	borkdude	and revisit again when reborn by caffeine
10:38	cemerick	borkdude: sorry I wasn't clear enough re: the coordinate system. You got it in the end. :-)
10:39	alfborge	Is there a reverse function of fnil?
10:39	alfborge	Ie I want to take a function f and make it return nil if the result is x
10:39	alfborge	As opposed to fnil that take a function f and make it return x if the result is nil
10:39	borkdude	cemerick :)
10:41	alfborge	I'm still on the (or fn1 fn2) where I want the result of fn2 if fn1 returns "".
10:41	TimMc	alfborge: 'or
10:41	TimMc	However, 'or will also short-circuit on false.
10:42	alfborge	TimMc: I'm looking for short-circuiting on "" instead of false/nil.
10:42	TimMc	(Err, "short-circuit" might be the term for truthish results, but you get my meaning.)
10:42	TimMc	alfborge: if-let is the closest I can think of.
10:45	borkdude	alfborge (defn foo [f x] (fn [& args] (let [res (apply f args)] (if (= x res) nil res)))) ?
10:45	borkdude	alfborge ((foo + 2) 1 1) => nil
10:45	borkdude	alfborge ((foo + 2) 1 2) => 3
10:45	TimMc	alfborge: SOrry, that was a bad recommendation. I think I'm still asleep.
10:45	semperos	trying to use cgrand's parsley, trying out the new views functionality shown here: https://github.com/cgrand/parsley/blob/master/test/net/cgrand/parsley/test.clj#L85
10:46	alfborge	TimMc: Indeed, couldn't find a way to make if-let work since it suffers from the same issue as using or. :)
10:46	semperos	perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like the output of (my-parser my-input) is the input for something like net.cgrand.parsley.views/length as one example of a view function
10:47	semperos	but I get a "net.cgrand.parsley.Node cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn" error
10:47	alfborge	borkdude: Yes, but is there an ideomatic way to do this?
10:47	semperos	if anyone can examine this and see what I'm not seeing, would be appreciated
10:47	TimMc	alfborge: If it really irks you to use (let [...] (if ...)) inline, you could define a macro or fn to do the work.
10:48	alfborge	TimMc: If using a let is the recommended solution then that's ok. However it feels clumsy and that's usually a sign that there is something I've overlooked. :)
10:48	borkdude	alfborge idiomatic? I take that as an insult
10:49	TimMc	heh
10:49	alfborge	borkdude: If you want. That wasn't my intention.
10:49	borkdude	alfborge kidding ;)
10:49	alfborge	:)
10:51	alfborge	Got to run. Thanks for the help guys.
10:55	gtrak	mboeh: saw your blog post re: mass downloader, what was the issue with agents?
11:02	keratacon	Is this the proper place to ask about errors setting up swank-clojure?
11:03	borkdude	keratacon yes, but you could also try #leiningen
11:05	keratacon	OK, I'll try here first. I installed swank-clojure 1.4.2 and it installed without error, but Aquamacs (which does have clojure-mode installed) gives errors with clojure-jack-in and when I attempt to run swank-clojure in my lein bin folder, I get Java runtime exceptions
11:05	borkdude	keratacon post the exceptions in a gist
11:06	borkdude	keratacon and what leiningen version ar eyou using
11:06	keratacon	https://gist.github.com/2989169
11:07	keratacon	1.7.1
11:07	antares_	I think it needs arguments like a port to bind to
11:07	antares_	typically swank-clojure is used via clojure-mode in lein
11:07	antares_	which starts it for you and picks a port automatically
11:08	borkdude	keratacon I usually start it with "lein swank"
11:08	borkdude	keratacon but using clojure-jack-in, you shouldn't have to start it yourself anyway,
11:08	semperos	answer to my question above: fnode and fleaf
11:08	keratacon	"lein swank" says swank is not a task
11:09	borkdude	keratacon then the plugin is not properly installed
11:09	borkdude	lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.2
11:11	keratacon	reinstalling worked
11:11	keratacon	thanks for your time
11:12	borkdude	welcome
11:12	borkdude	gtg
11:56	ibdknox	Monrning everyone!
11:56	ibdknox	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/06/24/its-playtime/
11:56	ibdknox	enjoy :)
11:57	Frozenlock	Playtime? Time to get my trains!
11:57	mhanson	ibdknox: Sweet!
11:57	samrat	could someone explain what's going on in line 9 here: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3310 ?
11:57	foxdonut	ibdknox: superawesome
11:58	foxdonut	samrat: if candidates is not empty, return its first element, else return n
11:58	RickInGA	'(seq [1 2 3])
11:58	RickInGA	,(seq [1 2 3])
11:58	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
11:58	RickInGA	,(seq [])
11:58	clojurebot	nil
11:58	oskarth	nice one ibdknox
11:58	treehug	in clojurescript w/ cljsbuild, can my user code safely require closure-library r2005 (the current head, for example), while cljs itself is on an older version? ie. is the compiler runtime isolated from the code its compiling?
11:58	foxdonut	,(let [candidates [] n 42] (if (seq candidates) (first candidates) n)
11:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:59	foxdonut	,(let [candidates [] n 42] (if (seq candidates) (first candidates) n))
11:59	clojurebot	42
11:59	foxdonut	,(let [candidates [1 2 3] n 42] (if (seq candidates) (first candidates) n))
11:59	clojurebot	1
11:59	foxdonut	,(let [candidates nil n 42] (if (seq candidates) (first candidates) n))
11:59	clojurebot	42
11:59	dnolen	ibdknox: yowza
11:59	mhanson	ibdknox: Looking awesome so far.
12:00	Frozenlock	ibdknox must be eating awesome cherios in the morning. Would you mind sharing the brand? :)
12:02	ibdknox	haha :)
12:02	bork\|away	ibdknox on my mac I get a white screen with nothing to do in it
12:03	ibdknox	bork\|away: what OS X?
12:03	bork\|away	10.7.4
12:04	gtrak	ibdknox: already the superior one-step repl
12:04	Frozenlock	ibdknox: Does it close the server if I close my browser?
12:05	bork\|away	ibdknox http://twitpic.com/a0fykz
12:05	ibdknox	Frozenlock: no, so as to be a quick on
12:05	ibdknox	./light server stop will kill it
12:06	ibdknox	bork\|away: can you check what's in ~/.lighttable/logs/server.log
12:06	Frozenlock	Thanks!
12:06	foxdonut	Frozenlock: also, ibdknox is on Uberman's sleep schedule (20-minute nap every 4 hours. That’s a total of 2 hours of sleep every 24-hour period.)
12:06	bork\|away	ibdknox Server started.
12:06	bork\|away	CONNECTING: clj
12:06	ibdknox	interesting
12:06	ibdknox	close that window and call ./light table again?
12:06	ibdknox	or actually
12:06	ibdknox	just do cmd+n
12:07	bork\|away	ibdknox it might be just me, I tend to get things b0rked ;)
12:07	Frozenlock	foxdonut: Wasn't Uberman' schedule debunked years ago?
12:07	tmciver	ibdknox: works for me on Ubuntu. Thanks, keep up the great work!
12:07	bork\|away	ibdknox cmd+n just opens a new white screen
12:07	bork\|away	ibdknox I'll try restart it
12:08	dnolen	ibdknox: I'm assuming your 1.5 issue got resolved?
12:08	foxdonut	Frozenlock: probably, but so was Lisp, and look where we are now :D
12:08	bork\|away	ibdknox hey that worked… suddenly things appear
12:08	samrat	can anyone explain what's going on in line 9 here? https://www.refheap.com/paste/3310
12:08	ibdknox	dnolen: switched gears on that, this version worked before any of those changes haha
12:08	bork\|away	ibdknox I think I did something wrong while pasting the command, didn't see that it was all just a long line.. sorry!
12:08	ibdknox	bork\|away: I have no idea lol
12:09	ibdknox	fun real-time facts
12:09	ibdknox	I'm tracking events, active minutes spent and lines of code executed (rate-limited to one eval per minute per person, otherwise that would be cheating)
12:10	ibdknox	2010 active minutes spent, 38129 lines of code eval'd :)
12:10	bork\|away	ibdknox cool! :) :)
12:10	gtrak	samrat: i think you meant seq?
12:10	samrat	gtrak: yeah, i couldn't understand that part
12:11	ibdknox	lol people are funny
12:11	ibdknox	this guy complained that after removing everything it installed it no longer worked :p
12:12	bork\|away	ibdknox I'm amazed already, can't wait to play with this some more… away again
12:12	zerokarmaleft	ibdknox: this is fantastic
12:12	ibdknox	I released it to a really small group last weds
12:12	ibdknox	I was surprised how much people were using it :)
12:14	Bronsa	ibdknox: http://i.imgur.com/PKwSL.png
12:14	ibdknox	lol
12:14	bork\|away	ibdknox I know this will be a huge win in the classroom
12:15	ibdknox	Bronsa: yeah, there are likely a few things like that where I'm not correctly getting line/column metadata
12:15	Bronsa	ibdknox: yeah, just letting you know, keep up the awesome work :)
12:15	zerokarmaleft	ibdknox: is there a way to resume execution after cancelling with C-d?
12:15	sr71-blackbird	ibdknox, just curious, is there a demo/really-beta version of light table around?
12:16	ibdknox	zerokarmaleft: should be able to just start typing again
12:16	ibdknox	sr71-blackbird: what do you mean?
12:17	sr71-blackbird	ibdknox, i'm just wondering if a version of light table was around to use -- I just joined the channel, might be off-topic .. if so, I'm sorry
12:18	ibdknox	sr71-blackbird: http://www.chris-granger.com/ :)
12:19	sr71-blackbird	ibdknox, ahhh, awesome!
12:20	uvtc	given a project name, how can I ask clojars.org to tell me (A) the :url and (B) the :description for the given project?
12:20	technomancy	uvtc: you'd have to fetch the pom I think
12:20	technomancy	there's no API
12:20	technomancy	even if there were, the pom might be a good place to look anyway
12:21	uvtc	technomancy, I'm not familiar with pom files. Are they basically the mvn-equivalent of the project.clj?
12:21	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, project.clj complies to a pom
12:21	ibdknox	that went up fast. Over 64k lines now :)
12:21	technomancy	uvtc: just do `lein pom` to check it out; should be easy to parse with clojure.xml
12:21	uvtc	technomancy, Oh, I see. The next question I was going to ask was, "can I ask clojars for a given project's project.clj file?".
12:22	technomancy	uvtc: curl http://clojars.org/repo/robert/hooke/1.1.2/hooke-1.1.2.pom
12:23	uvtc	Oh, I need to include version number info. Ok.
12:23	uvtc	technomancy, thanks.
12:24	technomancy	no problem
12:26	technomancy	uvtc: I'd like to allow arbitrary pieces of metadata (like documentation url) to be specified in project.clj but I don't know of a way to make it propagate out to the pom
12:27	uvtc	It's fine. Like you pointed out, I can just parse the pom with clojure.xml.
12:27	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, but I'd like clojars to be able to take advantage of more metadata than just url and description
12:29	uvtc	I'm thinking that as long as every project includes a valid :url and :description, then that's a good start. Last time I checked, a number of projects at clojars did not have urls specified. I'm thinking it might be good to try and do something about that.
12:30	uvtc	That might be more useful than the Alcove (re. last-night's ML post I made).
12:32	uvtc	technomancy, this has come up here before. I'm not sure how much of the process could be automated.
12:33	technomancy	uvtc: lein yells at you now if you try to deploy url-less or description-less projects
12:33	uvtc	(inc technomancy)
12:33	lazybot	⇒ 26
12:33	technomancy	plus they won't be promoted to the new releases repo
12:34	uvtc	What's the "new releases repo"?
12:35	technomancy	clojurebot: next-gen clojars is http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/77c1cd77e478bb0f
12:35	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
12:35	technomancy	bot oughtta know that
12:35	technomancy	uvtc: it's the main thing blocking leiningen from declaring 2.0.0 final
12:36	uvtc	clojurebot: next-gen clojars
12:36	clojurebot	next-gen clojars is http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/77c1cd77e478bb0f
12:36	technomancy	a repo that enforces some minimal requirements for usage; lein 2.0.0 will default to only checking that and central
12:36	uvtc	Ha. Was just reading that discussion.
12:36	technomancy	so the existing clojars repo will have to be opt-in
12:37	uvtc	Oh, you mean "pom/jar" repo, not github repo.
12:37	technomancy	aye
12:37	uvtc	Aye laddie!
12:41	uvtc	.oO( seems odd to me that they're named inc and dec, rather than incr and decr ... inc looks like "include" and dec looks like "decimal"...)
12:41	technomancy	incf and decf are the state-mashing CL equivalents
12:44	uvtc	What's the "f" for?
12:45	technomancy	probably the same as the f in setf
12:45	technomancy	maybe form?
12:45	uvtc	"Oh fiddlesticks you've gone and mashed the state!"
12:45	technomancy	really I'd expect a lot more "enemy of the state" jokes from this channel
12:45	uvtc	hahaha
12:47	gtrak	immutability is really just an indirection of state, though, managed state-change
12:51	gtrak	oops, 'x is really just y', I mean that's one way to look at it
12:51	technomancy	yeah, CL's notion of "places" really feels like just a half-baked reference type
12:53	gtrak	hmm, how do I search for common lisp 'place'
12:54	technomancy	C-h f setf maybe? =)
12:54	y3di	im new to clojure and im testing out recursion in lighttable playground with this func: https://gist.github.com/2989839
12:54	y3di	but I get a wrong number of args error, i can't seem to figure out why
12:56	uvtc	Do you see a need for a "CPAN for Clojure", given that Clojure has Clojars + clojure-toolbox (et al) + github?
12:56	mhanson	y3di: When you're calling your function, don't put the arguments in a vector.
12:56	gtrak	ah, an ELISP thing
12:56	y3di	oooo
12:56	technomancy	gtrak: inherited from MACLISP I'd wager
12:57	technomancy	uvtc: I don't think the separate hand-curated approach of clojure-toolbox is a good bet in the long run
12:58	technomancy	uvtc: but I would love to see some of the clojuresphere data integrated into clojars
12:58	bhenry1	has anyone had problems with lein2 uberjars?
12:58	mboeh	gtrak: I couldn't figure out how to dispatch a lot of agents in one go and then wait for them all to finish. But I'm still fuzzy on agents in general
12:59	gfredericks	employer just got a safair books account, so now I can read all the clojure books :)
12:59	technomancy	clojurebot: anyone?
12:59	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
12:59	gtrak	mboeh: ah, I think that's the wrong approach for agents. I read that in your previous post. You probably only want one agent? then use send or send-off on it.
13:00	gtrak	though I'm not sure what the 'state' would be. futures are probably what you want
13:01	uvtc	technomancy, re. clojure-toolbox, it seems useful to have links to projects by-category ... (I wonder how much people actually use that feature.)
13:01	technomancy	uvtc: yeah, but something like that needs to be curated by project maintainers themselves
13:02	mboeh	gtrak: How do I do more than one job, then? Do agents represent a thread pool or just a single job?
13:02	clojurebot	whose job is<reply>that is gsavs job
13:02	SrPx	Can I save my current REPL state ? Using swank + clojure + slime. Like, in a text form, maybe?
13:02	gtrak	mboeh: futures actually use the send-off pool, check out https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Agent.java
13:02	technomancy	uvtc: 2/3rds of the entries under JSON on that page are deprecated
13:02	uvtc	Python's cheeseshop (module repository (ugh, don't like overloading that term like that)) does it that way; project maintainers specify tags for their project, and you can browse the project repository by tag...
13:03	technomancy	uvtc: that's the way to go
13:03	technomancy	we should standardize on a deprecation flag too =)
13:03	gtrak	mboeh: and https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/d0c380d9809fd242bec688c7134e900f0bbedcac/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6143
13:03	technomancy	lots of 404s on that page =\
13:03	uvtc	technomancy, I emailed weavejester about a few broken links there.
13:03	technomancy	well, mostly getwoven projects I guess
13:04	uvtc	crane, work, sexpbot, fjord
13:04	technomancy	manual curation doesn't scale
13:04	uvtc	It's got to be difficult for one person to maintain that list by-hand.
13:04	gtrak	mboeh: the cachedThreadPool keeps growing, so it's meant for IO stuff like what you're doing
13:05	mboeh	I suppose I'd take my existing seq of task functions and map them to futures, and then... deref them all in sequence, I guess?
13:05	mboeh	Once they've all deref'd, it means the jobs are all done, I guess
13:05	gtrak	mboeh: derefing will block actually
13:05	mboeh	Which is what I want to do -- block until they've all finished
13:06	gtrak	yea.. that'll work then
13:06	bhenry1	technomancy: i don't really have a question yet. my lein2 uberjar doesn't work, and i wondered if there was a problem before i try to figure out what i did wrong. incidentally, it works with lein1 uberjar even though my project is all lein2-ified.
13:06	gtrak	mboeh: you'll have a seq of blockings :-)
13:07	uvtc	technomancy, Ah. Here. Python's Cheeseshop calls them "trove classifiers". Here's a list: http://pypi.python.org/pypi?%3Aaction=list_classifiers
13:07	gtrak	mboeh: also consider promise/deliver
13:08	technomancy	uvtc: that looks familiar; I bet they got that list from sourceforge
13:09	llasram	I haven't had a chance to track it down yet, but has anyone else experienced that Clojure (1.4) doesn't like being in an uberjar where something else has provided a data_readers.clj ?
13:09	mboeh	gtrak: Thanks! I'll try that out. This stuff is all quite new to me so I appreciate the help.
13:10	xeqi	bhenry: what does "doesn't work" mean?
13:10	llasram	And now that I'm thinking about it, I think maybe lein needs special support for uberjaring deps with data_readers.clj
13:10	gtrak	mboeh: I enjoy thinking about it, np
13:12	llasram	technomancy: Any thoughts on data_readers.clj and `lein uberjar`?
13:13	bhenry	xeqi: technomancy: my bad. old preview. all good
13:13	technomancy	llasram: you could do that with a :filespecs entry in project.clj; check out `lein help sample`
13:15	llasram	Hmm, interesting
13:16	technomancy	hm; actually looking at that now that's a horrible API
13:16	technomancy	it should be a map instead of a seq of maps
13:16	SrPx	can you save your REPL state?
13:17	llasram	technomancy: That might make it more clear, esp if the intent was for later entries to override earlier
13:17	uvtc	technomancy, now that you mention it, I'm surprised to not see a :deprecated-versions key in lein's sample.project.clj.
13:17	technomancy	uvtc: I think a general :deprecated key would be more useful
13:18	llasram	As it is... Oh, ok. I think that's the effect, by overwriting the same path in the jar file if the same path appears in the assembled filespecs more than once?
13:18	technomancy	:superceded-by [cheshire "4.0.0"]
13:18	technomancy	llasram: I think the jar->uberjar copying is actually first-one-wins
13:19	technomancy	uvtc: for instance, clj-json and clojure-json would point to cheshire
13:19	llasram	Oh, right -- :filespecs only affects jars, not uberjars, where uberjars are what seems to have the issue
13:19	uvtc	technomancy, do you mean that example be in the cheshire project.clj?
13:20	uvtc	technomancy, right. Nice, yes, useful for when the author wants to recommend that the user upgrade/switch to another project that does the same thing but better.
13:20	technomancy	uvtc: only going to be more common as time goes on
13:21	uvtc	technomancy, I agree. Would be great for lein to be able to tell the user about it.
13:21	technomancy	probably clojars job rather than lein
13:22	technomancy	users of superceded libs are more likely to be on an old version that doesn't yet know it has been superceded
13:23	uvtc	I was thinking: a user adds the coords of an older lib to their project.clj and uses it without even checking clojars.
13:24	uvtc	technomancy, maybe then it would be nice if they could explicitly ask lein: "am I using any deprecated projects?" "Have any of the projects I'm using been superceded?"
13:25	technomancy	hm; maybe
13:25	uvtc	Gah. Always misspell that: superseded
13:28	gtrak	superceed
13:28	dnolen	SrPx: not really.
13:29	dnolen	SrPx: kovasb has some ideas, but not really about saving entire app state, more workbook like.
13:29	gtrak	uvtc: who gets to decide if something has been superseded?
13:30	gtrak	we need a 'lein consensus'
13:30	uvtc	gtrak, the author of a given project would decide if their project has been superseded by some other project.
13:30	technomancy	yeah, it would be for cases where a maintainer has explicitly abandoned a project
13:30	uvtc	They're the one writing their project.clj file. :)
13:32	gtrak	'lein consensus (> clojure.data.xml lazyxml)'
13:32	uvtc	technomancy, so far, to me it seems easy to forget to check/update version numbers in project.clj files. Especially if you populate them by grabbing links from other projects you've worked on recently. That's why I think it would be important to be able to ask lein explicitly about if any of those have been deprecated/superseded.
13:33	SrPx	dnolen: okay, thank you!
13:33	technomancy	uvtc: there's a plugin for that; lein-outdated IIRC
13:37	kaoD	hi
13:42	uvtc	What is the clojars policy on keeping old releases? Does it keep all old releases forever?
13:42	technomancy	uvtc: yeah
13:42	technomancy	uvtc: there's no guarantee about keeping old snapshots though
13:43	technomancy	but releases are forever
13:55	scriptor	does anyone have a link handy to the clojurescript todomvc submission?
13:56	Frozenlock	Question for the congomongo users: Is there a way to do (merge {:a 100} {:a 200} {:a 300})--> {:a 300} but on the server side? (directly on the mongodb?
13:59	gtrak	hey, how would I add a custom clojure file, classpath entries and such into lein 1.x so I have some utilities in all my project repls?
14:00	gtrak	cannot upgrade to 2 yet unfortunately
14:00	S11001001	gtrak: make other lein project with common utils, use checkouts
14:00	technomancy	gtrak: might be doable with a plugin, but it's going to be ugly compared to 2.x
14:00	technomancy	gtrak: what's blocking the upgrade?
14:01	gtrak	other plugins and things, not just me involved
14:01	technomancy	ok, just curious
14:02	gtrak	our current build config is touchy even with 1.x versions
14:02	technomancy	haven't heard many cases of people not being able to upgrade so it always makes me wonder what's up
14:02	gtrak	yea, I'm not sure of the details, but I think it involves some custom stuff :-)
14:03	gtrak	so I could make a plugin? I was looking into doing that anyway
14:03	gtrak	for a different reason
14:04	technomancy	sure, in 1.x plugins just get put in ~/.lein/plugins as an uberjar and included in every project's classpath
14:04	technomancy	which is really gross but might get you what you need
14:04	gtrak	gotcha, that might be simplest
14:06	zach_	Is there anything other than clj-oauth that people would recommend for supporting github oauth?
14:06	technomancy	zach_: github oauth is super-simple to consume with clj-http
14:07	zach_	technomancy: Okay, that's where I was kind of headed. Thanks!
14:07	technomancy	zach_: https://github.com/technomancy/buildkits/commit/027d7da416972892f2340bcfc0fafc18f33b68db#L5R22
14:08	zach_	technomancy: Awesome!
14:13	uvtc	Is there any mechanism for indicating which repo for a given project is the canonical one? That is, besides adding a note to the top of the readme.
14:14	technomancy	uvtc: no, and it drives me nuts
14:14	uvtc	For example, https://github.com/medSage/clj-http vs. https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http vs. https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-http .
14:14	uvtc	Hm.
14:14	technomancy	"delete everything but a readme pointing to the new one" is really the only reasonable thing to do
14:15	uvtc	How about on clojars?
14:15	technomancy	just :description
14:15	uvtc	I mean, if there are multiple like-named projects, differing only by group-id.
14:15	technomancy	oh, well the solution there is don't do that because it's terrible
14:15	uvtc	So, same story there then.
14:16	technomancy	org.clojars.* excepted
14:16	uvtc	"org.clojars.* excepted"?
14:16	kaoD	is there any good way to debug clojure in emacs?
14:17	uvtc	technomancy: Gah, sorry --- need to go read more of the docs at https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/wiki.
14:20	kaoD	not println, of course
14:21	lynaghk	scriptor: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2-demos/tree/master/todoMVC
14:21	scriptor	ah, thanks
14:22	lynaghk	scriptor: that's mine, anyway. I don't think there's an "official submission" or anything
14:22	lynaghk	scriptor: also, I haven't submitted it yet. Need to cut C2 0.2.0 and get some feedback on this one (please let me know if you have any questions or think things should be done differently)
14:24	scriptor	lynaghk: one thing, it doesn't seem very...mvc-ish
14:24	lynaghk	scriptor: = )
14:24	scriptor	which probably doesn't fit so well with clojure's functional sytle
14:24	lynaghk	scriptor: yeah. I'm not exactly sure how I'd make it more MVC. Maybe represent the TODO-list as a record with a ton of interfaces for "add item" and "get completed count" and stuff like that
14:24	lynaghk	scriptor: but that doesn't seem very Clojurey to me at all.
14:25	scriptor	lynaghk: yep
14:25	scriptor	it'd basically be forcing oop onto it
14:26	scriptor	on the other hand, the current one's organization is a bit all over the place, with a bunch of functions in core
14:26	scriptor	while list.clj seems to contain the templates and events
14:26	Chousuke	functional UIs are hard :/
14:26	lynaghk	yep. That would be the organization. I'm thinking of list.cljs as the view, and core.cljs as the model.
14:27	lynaghk	er, "data/logic" bits.
14:27	lynaghk	if there were more than one logical grouping of data fns, I'd split them out into different namespaces
14:27	lynaghk	Chousuke: they're not as hard as OO-UIs sometimes = )
14:28	Chousuke	I've read lots about various technologies used to build interactive applications using functional tools but I've yet to find a software project that uses those for real things :P
14:31	edw	Hey guys, I'm running into this problem with lein as I'm trying to get Incanter up and running. Hoping someone could provide some insight: https://gist.github.com/2990375
14:31	foxdonut	Chousuke: interesting, anything in particular that looked good to you?
14:32	baoist	Has anyone had an issue with vimclojure in macvim freezing when "vimclojure#WantNailgun" is enabled perchance?
14:32	Chousuke	nah, just random things. mostly haskell :P
14:32	foxdonut	Chousuke: I hear ya. And the reactive stuff and so on too?
14:33	Chousuke	yeah
14:33	Chousuke	but they all have very simple examples :/
14:33	foxdonut	guess you reached the same conclusion as I did :)
14:33	technomancy	edw: ugh; why is incanter pulling in mongo?
14:33	technomancy	edw: I'd recommend :exclusions
14:33	mattmoss	Okay, maybe my brain isn't working at the moment, but... If I have an agent with a simple value, e.g. (def x (agent 3)), how can I send a new arbitrary value?
14:33	Chousuke	it's really cool but it's not obvious to me how it would scale to real applications.
14:33	mattmoss	(send x 5) obviously doesn't work.
14:34	edw	Ah. OK.
14:34	edw	It also pulls in the kitchen sink.
14:35	edw	I looked in the project file and saw that I can just comment out the mongo support in toto.
14:36	scriptor	lynaghk: I'd say start abstracting the code out so it's more frameworky
14:37	technomancy	yet another "big pile of stuff" adherent
14:37	scriptor	for example...
14:37	uvtc	technomancy: how long do you guess until remaining details are hashed out and the new clojars is ready?
14:38	scriptor	lynaghk: (model todos []) might set up the atom and generate the add/edit/delete code for you
14:39	lynaghk	scriptor: trying to make it more frameworky seems pretty antiethical to Clojure philosophy
14:39	lynaghk	e.g., "treat data as data"
14:39	technomancy	uvtc: it needs two things mostly: 0) support for deploying signatures from Leiningen and 1) a process to promote existing artifacts to the S3 releases repo
14:39	scriptor	lynaghk: yes, but it'd get annoying pretty quickly to have to manually write all the getters and setters every time, right?
14:39	technomancy	uvtc: 0 is implemented on a branch waiting for a pomegranate release. not sure how long 1 will take
14:40	technomancy	uvtc: we may still need to hash out some policy details too
14:40	uvtc	technomancy, thanks.
14:40	lynaghk	scriptor: We haven't been annoyed by it enough to abstract it out, and we've been making cljs apps for about 6 months full time now. That said, I can see what you're after, and it seems reasonable
14:40	lynaghk	scriptor: it just needs to be balanced with the fact that data isn't always going to be as simple as a vector of flat maps.
14:41	mattmoss	This may sound stupid but... any idea how to reduce #(second [% 5]) for use in send to an agent?
14:41	lynaghk	scriptor: it's easy to abstract that stuff out, but then how do you deal with the edge cases that'll start to crop up? Sometimes use the framework-generated accessors, sometimes write custom fns?
14:42	scriptor	lynaghk: right, but a large amount of data could be modeled with just vectors and hashmaps
14:42	lynaghk	scriptor: definitely. It could also be just that we don't really build standard "CRUD"-type apps, so we haven't felt what might be a very obvious/typical pressure.
14:45	scriptor	lynaghk: yea, it's just that if you have several different, but similar models, you wouldn't want to have the same edit-* clear-* add-* functions every time
14:45	gtrak	mattmoss: do you want (identity 5)?
14:45	scriptor	it doesn't really have to be a framework
14:46	lynaghk	scriptor: do you have any cljs UIs? I'd be interested to see your take on some of the problems.
14:46	lynaghk	(that has definitely been one of the most frustrating things about cljs---it's hard to find more-than-hello-world code to see how people approach problems in a functional way)
14:47	scriptor	lynaghk: not really, current job is to evaluate backbone for an upcoming project
14:47	scriptor	I think the basic model structure is that we have images, which are contained in galleries, and then we have collections that can contain both galleries or other collections, so a basic tree structure
14:48	mattmoss	gtrak: Sending that to an agent fails the agent.
14:48	gtrak	oh? huh?
14:49	uvtc	At clojars, if you see a project there with a group-id of "org.clojars.<somebody>", that indicates that the project in question is not the canonical one, correct?
14:49	mattmoss	If I have (def x (agent 3))... I need something like (send x 5) , but that actually works.
14:49	xeqi	mattmoss: (constantly 5) ?
14:50	gtrak	mattmoss: ah, my bad, one level meta-er
14:50	mattmoss	xeqi: Ya, that seems to work.
14:50	mattmoss	I find the hardest part of learning a new computer language isn't the language itself... it's the libraries.
14:52	gfredericks	mattmoss: (constantly 5) is the same as (fn [_] 5); you just ignore the input state and return 5
14:52	gfredericks	well it's the same in this context
14:52	technomancy	uvtc: that's the idea
14:53	uvtc	technomancy, then what do you do when project maintainership changes? How does the new maintainer push to the canonical group-id?
14:54	dnolen_	scriptor: I'm still hoping that someone will do the CLJS work necessary to have something significantly better than JS MVCs.
14:54	dnolen_	scriptor: JSC MVCs are the new ORM.
14:54	tmciver	gfredericks: slight correction: (constantly 5) same as (fn [& more] 5)
14:54	xeqi	uvtc: you can add people to the group
14:54	uvtc	xeqi, oh! Thanks. :)
14:55	scriptor	dnolen_: right, I definitely don't want to see MVC bolted onto clojurescript, but the current method seems a bit too close to how it was done previously
14:55	dnolen_	scriptor: what "current method" ?
14:55	scriptor	dnolen_: er, the one that lynaghk pasted above
14:55	xeqi	uvtc: see https://clojars.org/groups/ring which has both people that have ran it
14:56	shawnlewis	dnolen_: do you have design ideas for such a thing?
14:56	uvtc	xeqi, nice.
14:56	dnolen_	scriptor: yeah there is no "current method", just a lot of different experiments about possible approach.
14:56	scriptor	right
14:57	mattmoss	gfredericks: thanks
14:58	dnolen_	shawnlewis: only sketches - someone needs to design a performant, easy to use FRP-like layer. for data I'd like to see something built over core.logic DB facilities. then you could have queries over raw (indexed) data - you don't need collections or models.
15:03	shawnlewis	dnolen_: to me it seems that contrib.datalog was probably at the right level for FRP
15:03	scriptor	lynaghk: so, in short, framework is probably the wrong word, just something that prevents too much code duplication
15:04	dnolen_	shawnlewis: it was/is incredibly slow.
15:04	shawnlewis	dnolen_: ah… i mean the api though
15:06	shawnlewis	dnolen_: maybe i'm wrong about this, but it seems with core.logic facts are best specified as pairs
15:06	dnolen_	shawnlewis: yes though it probably wouldn't be too hard I think to build out something datalog like over core.logic either.
15:06	shawnlewis	dnolen_: right that's what I was thinking you meant by "built over core.logic DB facilities"
15:06	dnolen_	shawnlewis: no they can be tuples of any size really, though current implementation is better if < 20
15:07	dnolen_	shawnlewis: 2 things I haven't had time to get to, multi column keys & incremental indexing.
15:10	gfredericks	tmciver: thus my "in this context" ammendment
15:11	shawnlewis	dnolen_: i haven't gone very far down the core.logic road, but when I played with it I made everything pairs, because it wasn't clear how to do a partial fact check. For example if I have a (defrel book id reader-id writer-id), how can I state in a query that I want books where the writer id is 5? I could do (fresh [a] (book q a 5)) and leave a as a free variable?
15:11	dnolen_	shawnlewis: yes free variables
15:13	shawnlewis	dnolen_: ok, so the layer that brings it up to a datalog like interface would do that for you, because if you have a 20-sized relation you don't want to have to make 18 of those free if you're only doing a query on a pair
15:13	dnolen_	shawnlewis: yep
15:13	shawnlewis	dnolen_: or the layer could split all relations into pairs
15:15	shawnlewis	dnolen_: are there performance implications for reducing all relations to relations between pairs, versus adding lots of free variables to queries?
15:16	cmajor7	not entirely a clojure question, but a JVM one… is there any way to find out whether a certain JVM supports GetDirectBufferAddress (e.g. JNI access to direct buffers)? e.g. is there a proof/documentation that Oracle/Sun JVM supports it? (e.g. per docs it says "Every implementation of the Java virtual machine must support these functions, but not every implementation is required to support JNI access to direct buffers")
15:16	dnolen_	shawnlewis: yes, more lookups.
15:16	tmciver	gfredericks: Ah, yes.
15:23	etosch	on calling java from clojure: i need to call a java program's main from clojure and would like to do so from the clojure repl. when the function that i'm calling finishes, it kills my current instance of the jvm. is there a neat way to call the clojure expression and either (a) block any calls the kill the java process or (b) run on another jvm? i dont necessarily need to get the data back. also, i've tried using clojure.java.shell and am having all sor
15:23	etosch	this would be general call for advice, btw :)
15:26	technomancy	etosch: it's impossible to disable the System/exit call from the main method?
15:27	ibdknox	What would be a good metric to track interest in Clojure?
15:27	skise-mou	vote for the best muscle man (from powermen,muscle hunks and muscle gallery) please vote to all groups and pages thanks
15:27	skise-mou	http://bestmusclepowermen.blogspot.com/
15:27	gtrak	ibdknox: google trends
15:27	amalloy	etosch: look for a program that's not so awful that it includes a call to System.exit
15:29	etosch	technomancy: I'm in a weird position - I'm trying to write a clojure interface to some java software. It's meant to be augmented in some ways, but I don't want to mess with it in other ways. Let's say for now that I can't go into the java code and call System/exit. What are my options?
15:30	technomancy	you'll have to launch a subprocess
15:30	dnolen_	ibdknox: I rely on Twitter (hard to really follow anymore) / GitHub mostly. Are you looking for something more specific?
15:30	thesaskwatch	hi, I'm totally new to clojure. I'd like to setup a maven project using noir, make the build portable - to create war files running without dependencies, and use jetty plugin to develop - anyone here know how to do it?
15:31	ibdknox	dnolen_: just curious to see how much things track with Light Table
15:31	xeqi	etosch: subprocess, or perhaps a java.policy could stop exit calls
15:31	technomancy	https://groups.google.com/group/clojure/about <- there's always mailing list signups
15:31	technomancy	xeqi: oh yeah, I bet you could plunder clojail for that
15:32	technomancy	getting pretty close to 10x of what it was when I joined
15:32	dnolen_	ibdknox: I'm sure it helps quite a bit. Though it does seem to me the interest in Light Table is far broader than any interest in Clojure.
15:33	technomancy	of course back then close to 100% of clojure users were on the mailing list; I'm sure it's much lower now
15:33	ibdknox	technomancy: :)
15:33	thesaskwatch	wow, compojure looks nice
15:33	ibdknox	dnolen_: yeah, mostly just curious. A lot of people got their first taste of Clojure today I think
15:33	dnolen_	ibdknox: that said, a good Noir + CLJS mode could do for Clojure what TextMate did for Rails. I see a lot of excitement about being able to see values flow through the code immediately.
15:34	foxdonut	"I have no idea what this language is but I want that IDE!"
15:34	ibdknox	dnolen_: I wouldn't be surprised if such a thing came into existence in the not too distant future
15:34	ibdknox	;)
15:35	technomancy	interesting that mailing list traffic levels seem to have dropped a bit
15:35	dnolen_	ibdknox: haha, I suspected as much. Light Table is looking like an ideal for teaching folks about Clojure.
15:35	mhanson	Exciting day.
15:35	technomancy	hopefully at least partly due to fewer people getting confused about how to install slime
15:36	dnolen_	technomancy: because there are some really good books out there now?
15:36	ibdknox	technomancy: dnolen_: combination of both probably lol
15:36	technomancy	dnolen_: yeah, plus things aren't breaking much
15:36	newsham	hi. I would like to use a clojure REPL from the shell in android, or alternately over a socket remotely.
15:37	etosch	xeqi: hrm, do you know of a clojure library for this? I'm reading up on it now.
15:37	newsham	are there any premade apps that will let you do that?
15:37	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: thank god for quicklisp
15:37	dnolen_	ibdknox: so how long before plugin APIs? Will the right side be hookable?
15:38	zerokarmaleft	so many headaches trying to get a mutual SLIME setup with CL and Clojure...i don't think i was alone
15:38	dnolen_	ibdknox: would be awesome to get custom analyzers in there ...
15:38	ibdknox	dnolen_: the instarepl is mostly an experiment, the actual thing won't have two clearly defined sides most of the time - so anything will be possible
15:38	xeqi	etosch: theres clojail, but its overkill, and delegates to the java.policy for just restricting System/exit
15:38	ibdknox	dnolen_: the "when" for plugins is still a ways out
15:39	dnolen_	ibdknox: yeah, I suspected.
15:39	ibdknox	dnolen_: but yeah, custom analyzers and such - definitely something that can be added
15:39	dnolen_	ibdknox: cool.
15:39	ibdknox	dnolen_: I was going over some ideas with folks the other day and I think I made some heads explode. Some really neat things are coming up I think :)
15:40	ibdknox	wohoo! 400k lines eval'd :)
15:40	ibdknox	normalized to 1 entry per min per person
15:41	ibdknox	amalloy: I've been sending people to 4Clojure for source material :)
15:41	amalloy	hah
15:42	newsham	hmm looks like the "ClojureRepl" app for android supports something called "vimclojure server"
15:42	bbloom	ibdknox: oh, i didn't realize: is lightable sending stuff to your servers for evaluation?
15:42	newsham	that will let me access a repl remotely?
15:42	ibdknox	bbloom: no just some metrics, no code is sent just num lines
15:42	bbloom	ibdknox: ah ok
15:43	bbloom	that makes more sense :-)
15:43	amalloy	ibdknox: i'm not finding the light-table demo that useful yet. i'm doing transformations on small-to-medium maps, and the whole thing prints out every time i refer to it or give it a name in a let-binding; there's so much clutter i can't see any of what's going on
15:43	ibdknox	amalloy: it's likely not useful to you regardless
15:44	ibdknox	amalloy: not in its current state anyways
15:44	ibdknox	amalloy: as it stands its primarily helpful for understanding how Clojure works, less how your project works
15:44	amalloy	fair enough
15:44	ibdknox	basically just a scratch pad at this point
15:45	xeqi	newsham: I've seen sattvik do a code push to an android device with it
15:45	ibdknox	amalloy: that will be changing soon :)
15:45	amalloy	do you have a clever plan to illustrate recursion yet, or is that still an unsolved problem?
15:45	newsham	i just want a REPL from a real terminal from my computer (ie. over "adb shell" or over the net)
15:45	freiksenet	I dunno what's the point of having instant repl if people seldom write stuff taht evaluates to values on top-level
15:46	amalloy	freiksenet: at the repl, you do that all the time
15:46	freiksenet	amalloy: yeah, at the repl
15:46	freiksenet	not inside the code.
15:46	ibdknox	it's a repl
15:46	bbloom	freiksenet: it's a new kind of repl
15:46	amalloy	(defn foo [x] (...)) (foo 32) ;; did i get the value i wanted?
15:46	freiksenet	also eye candy started annoying me from first second
15:46	ibdknox	lol
15:46	ibdknox	freiksenet: you're not in my target demographic I think :)
15:47	amalloy	i told you including lens flare was a mistake, ibdknox
15:47	ibdknox	amalloy: yeah a few ideas, though our focus is on letting people edit real things now and less on making the instarepl some crazy
15:47	ibdknox	amalloy: hahaha
15:47	freiksenet	well I am a seasoned lisp developer, how am I not a target demographic :)
15:47	bbloom	amalloy: yeah man, lens flair is out. now eye aperture blue shift is in
15:47	ibdknox	just to fuck with people I should release an update that makes everything bright pink. That will win me supporters ;)
15:47	ibdknox	freiksenet: not all Lisp developers are the same
15:47	amalloy	gotta get dat anisotropic filtering
15:48	freiksenet	maybe. I currently see the problem with this as with slime repl substitute cause it occupies too much horizontal space, so you can't have code and repl open at the same time
15:49	ibdknox	that's a cosmetic issue, not a fundamental one
15:49	freiksenet	though if this is _repl_ not code editing mode then I start to see the appeal
15:49	ibdknox	yeah, it's meant to be a repl at this point
15:49	gtrak	freiksenet: have you been keeping track of the development? it's more of a framework I think?
15:49	freiksenet	also not paredit hurts.
15:50	freiksenet	no*
15:50	ibdknox	yeah, I'll convince someone to fix that at some point :)
15:50	freiksenet	maybe I should write such repl for slime %)
15:51	ibdknox	I have no doubt it could be done
15:51	Raynes	freiksenet: I think the target demographic is not people who think eyecandy is for them damn kids and their dog.
15:51	freiksenet	Raynes: i've never said that.
15:52	ibdknox	Raynes: damn those kids... damn them to hell.
15:52	freiksenet	I just said eyecandy just annoys me personally. I hope it will be optional.
15:52	Raynes	ibdknox: I think you're the first developer who will need to add an ugly-mode to their application in order to please the masses.
15:52	Raynes	:p
15:52	amalloy	i don't konw what eye candy you mean, freiksenet
15:52	freiksenet	I am definetely not going to use it, if editor takes my valuable milliseconds to do some animation
15:53	freiksenet	amalloy: the fading in/out animation
15:53	wkelly	haha
15:53	amalloy	Raynes: emacs, bro. it's just on by default
15:53	ibdknox	the thing that happens exactly once?
15:53	ibdknox	lol
15:53	Raynes	You are like every person on hacker news ever.
15:53	wkelly	he did say valuable milliseconds
15:53	gtrak	I love me some eye candy
15:53	Raynes	:>
15:53	ibdknox	haha
15:53	Raynes	amalloy: You got me there.
15:54	freiksenet	well I don't think you will earn hacker news love if you dismiss 'those stupid hackers' ;)
15:56	amalloy	maybe chris granger could intercede on ibdknox's behalf. i'm pretty sure that guy has HN wrapped around his finger
15:57	ibdknox	lol
15:58	Raynes	ibdknox beat HN like a video game on easy mode.
15:58	ibdknox	freiksenet: the original light table post was the 12th highest in HN history. Those HNer's seem to like eye candy too :) It's not for everyone though, that's true with all things. If you're happy with an editor, as I suspect many will be, then be happy with it
15:59	freiksenet	ibdknox: I am not happy with an editor, it's just hte best there currenlty is
15:59	freiksenet	I'd love to have slime-like stuff for every language, not just Common Lisp and (much less) clojure
15:59	wkelly	People are only happy with editors when members of the opposing editor faction are around.
16:00	ibdknox	lol
16:00	Raynes	wkelly: Except for ST2 users. They just want more gloss.
16:00	Raynes	If ST2 gets any more glossy, you'll be able to swim in its surface.
16:01	gtrak	I'm really looking forward for LT so I don't have to learn elisp... I want a full-clojure dev experience
16:01	Raynes	You have to learn elisp for that?
16:01	Raynes	I must have a half-clojure dev experience.
16:01	gtrak	Raynes: well, I don't really feel like investing in emacs for tools and things?
16:02	ibdknox	swank users, if you run swank on one computer, can you access it from another computer on the network and run arbitrary code? (I assume yes)
16:02	Raynes	ibdknox: I'm pretty sure you can.
16:02	hyPiRion	ibdknox: It's on a port, so yes.
16:02	freiksenet	ibdknox: for CL you can if you hack one dynamic variable
16:02	freiksenet	otherwise it listens on localhost only
16:02	ibdknox	someone brought that up about LT and I hadn't considered that
16:02	freiksenet	not sure about clojure
16:02	pcavs	Is it possible to destructure (deftype …) ? This doesn't work, but is there another way? (deftype Wrapper [a] Monad (bind [(Wrapper. x) g] (Wrapper. (g x)))) ?
16:02	benkard	@ibdknox Yes, but by default, Swank only listens on localhost.
16:02	amalloy	ibdknox: yes, though it's a bit more squirrely than doing locally
16:03	ibdknox	I see
16:04	JulioBarros	Does anyone know of a simple form based authentication app using cemerick's friend. There is something I'm missing but can't figure out what.
16:05	cemerick	JulioBarros: There's a fairly simple mock app in friend's repo that demonstrates most of its features and the included workflows, including forms.
16:06	cemerick	There's no UI, but that's irrelevant anyway.
16:06	benkard	I wonder whether using something like a named pipe would be preferable to a TCP socket. Can you tunnel named pipes through ssh somehow?
16:06	raek	pcavs: no, but you don't need to for the instance argument. the fields are accessible from the methods implicitly: (deftype Wrapper [a] Monad (bind [_ g] (Wrapper. (g a))))
16:07	wkelly	benkard: that is craziness!
16:07	benkard	:)
16:07	JulioBarros	cemerick thanks ... i was hoping for something even simpler (without the api-users and open id workflow) ... I'll keep working with it.
16:08	xeqi	JulioBarros: clojars uses friend's form based auth for the website portion
16:09	cemerick	xeqi: oh, sweet! I guess it went in smoothly for you?
16:10	newsham	hmm what is "<LocalLeader>"?
16:10	dnolen_	pcavs: regular destructuring works fine on deftype as long as you implement some interfaces (ILookup etc)
16:10	xeqi	cemerick: I skipped over friend doing authorization, and handle that in app, but the authentication part made adding https deploys easy
16:10	cemerick	nice
16:10	xeqi	cemerick: it also uses pomegranate for the ssh deploys btw
16:11	cemerick	xeqi: I remember you thinking around the authorization bits a while back. What would have made friend easier in that area?
16:12	xeqi	cemerick: I was hoping for a way to query roles at authentication time, instead of once at authorization time
16:12	xeqi	cemerick: ack, I have those backwards
16:12	cemerick	i.e. touch the db, etc?
16:13	xeqi	yeah, basically in clojars you can be added to a group by someone else
16:13	nDuff	woo!
16:13	xeqi	if you get roles at authentication time, as currently, then anyone logged in doesn't have the new access
16:15	xeqi	there are ways around it, like duplicating the group/role system as a heirarchy in memory
16:15	cemerick	xeqi: understood. There is a way to do that now, but it's a bit hacky. I need the same thing shortly, so hopefully something sane will come out of that.
16:15	xeqi	but it was easier just to make my own authenticate that hit the db
16:15	foxdonut	freiksenet: so was it really the fade-in when light table first loads, that you were complaining about?
16:15	cemerick	nDuff: well done :-)
16:15	freiksenet	foxdonut: also reloads
16:16	freiksenet	that was trolling :)
16:16	foxdonut	ah ok :)
16:16	xeqi	also there was some funnyness around :unauthenticated-handler, where I had to make my own that saved the current-uri for redirection after login
16:16	xeqi	but I forget what that was offhand
16:16	xeqi	* :unauthorized-handler
16:17	cemerick	saved, as in, persisted somewhere?
16:17	xeqi	cemerick: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/blob/master/src/clojars/web.clj#L172
16:17	xeqi	I can try and figure out why I had to do that later
16:18	cemerick	Oh. That should Just Work™.
16:18	foxdonut	freiksenet: I'm on the other side of the spectrum, I want as many fade effects as possible and I want the color scheme to change automatically throughout the time of day!
16:18	xeqi	I thought so.. I'll explore sometime
16:18	cemerick	Yeah, if you're in the neighborhood and it seems wonky, do file a bug.
16:18	freiksenet	foxdonut: latter is not eye candy ;)
16:18	cemerick	Thanks for the feedback. :-)
16:19	foxdonut	heh
16:20	akhudek	cemerick: I've also used friend on an internal admin panel
16:20	akhudek	took a while for me to understand the workflows, but it worked well enough
16:21	cemerick	akhudek: Cool, glad it worked out. I'm going to be back at it in a little while, so the docs should get some love.
16:21	cemerick	Hopefully I'll also squeeze out a friendly demo site, etc.
16:21	akhudek	cemerick: any more thoughts on validation? I noticed a post of yours where you mentioned trammel
16:22	akhudek	our main webapp has a security system that combines authentication and validation
16:22	cemerick	akhudek: You mean generalized web submission validation?
16:23	akhudek	yes, in a way authorization and validation have the same goal. Sometimes you have a resource that you need secured: "does this user own object with id x?"
16:24	akhudek	so our home grown security framework works by checking a series of policy functions for each route, one of which is "is the user authenticated?"
16:24	JulioBarros	cemerick I needed to set the login-uri or it would not work. Does that make any sense? Looks like it should be optional and default to "/login".
16:25	cemerick	JulioBarros: Interesting; yeah, that should default sensibly. Maybe open an issue with your usage of authenticate?
16:25	alfborge	I'm using enlive-html to scrape some html, but it seems it barfs on my input. Are there any other libraries out there that might work?
16:25	cemerick	akhudek: Interesting. I'll have to ponder that for a bit.
16:25	JulioBarros	cemerick ... could be one of dozens of things I'm doing wrong.
16:25	cemerick	Nothing new off hand, though. :-)
16:25	JulioBarros	:)
16:25	xeqi	JulioBarros, cemerick: I also remember having to add that
16:26	cemerick	JulioBarros: in that case, definitely open an issue :-)
16:26	alfborge	The offending html is <table><tr><td>..</td><input ...><td>..</td></tr></table>, causing enlive-html to split the row instead of wrapping the input in a td.
16:26	xeqi	I'll go through clojars's auth sometime this week and make issues for anything wierd like that
16:26	JulioBarros	xeqi Thanks! ... glad I'm not totally off base.
16:27	cemerick	alfborge: enlive uses tagsoup for sanitizing HTML; not sure if you're going to get much better than that. There might be some knobs to it that would help?
16:28	cemerick	e.g. some breadcrumbs might be here that'll be useful: https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj#L36
16:28	foxdonut	ibdknox: something funny happens if you load a fresh the light-table playground page and just add an extra 'd' (or whatever letter) next to 'my-add'
16:29	foxdonut	ibdknox: on the right, '(defn my-add [3 45]' becomes '(defn my-addd 3a45b]'
16:32	ibdknox	foxdonut: lol interesting. something gets out of sync with that.
16:35	foxdonut	ibdknox: impressive though. I'm lovin' it! Keep up the great work.
16:36	adeelkh	what happened to clojure.core.condition, is it still in 1.3.0?
16:36	adeelkh	clojure.contrib.condition i mean
16:37	Bronsa	adeelkh: see https://github.com/scgilardi/slingshot
16:37	adeelkh	ah, thanks
16:45	alfborge	cemerick: Can't see any knobs that seem likely to affect how it wraps my input-element. :(
16:45	Raynes	Turn all your knobs just to be sure.
16:45	alfborge	So, anyone know of alternatives to tagsoup that does a better job of parsing the way browsers parse?
16:46	Raynes	https://github.com/weavejester/crouton
16:46	Raynes	Don't know if it does a better job or not, but hey, it's Clojure and isn't tagsoup.
16:46	Raynes	Tagsoup gives me the willies.
16:46	Raynes	It uses jsoup./
16:47	Raynes	I like vegetable myself, but this is good too.
16:50	Chiron	Hi, kindly check "Composite Columns" section of https://github.com/Netflix/astyanax/wiki/Getting-Started
16:50	Chiron	what is the idiomatic Clojure way to implement something like SessionEvent?
16:56	Frozenlo`	Is there a way to change the default "page not found" in noir?
17:02	dsrguru	if using loop/recur gives me a reversed list, will I get better space and/or time performance in clojure by using non-tail recursion or loop/recur but reverse the result?
17:02	raek	dsrguru: there is a third option. instead of consing into a list you could conj onto a vector
17:03	dsrguru	raek: right, this is clojure we're talking about. Thanks :)
17:03	amalloy	or use a lazy seq instead of loop/recur
17:03	raek	,(loop [n 5, v []] (if (zero? n) (seq v) (recur (dec n) (conj v n))))
17:03	clojurebot	(5 4 3 2 1)
17:03	raek	amalloy: good point
17:04	amalloy	&((fn step [n] (when (pos? n) (cons n (step (dec n))))) 5)
17:04	lazybot	⇒ (5 4 3 2 1)
17:04	arrdem	,(doc conj)
17:04	clojurebot	"([coll x] [coll x & xs]); conj[oin]. Returns a new collection with the xs 'added'. (conj nil item) returns (item). The 'addition' may happen at different 'places' depending on the concrete type."
17:04	dsrguru	amalloy: in a short sequence of 1000 or fewer elements, would a lazy sequence have overhead that makes it slower?
17:05	amalloy	in a short sequence of 1000 or fewer elements, it's pretty unlikely you would notice
17:05	dsrguru	amalloy: well, if the operation were performed many times on that short sequence
17:06	amalloy	dsrguru: you're optimizing too soon. just write it the way that makes the most sense, and if it's untenable try some profiling
17:07	dsrguru	kk I just want to get used to writing idiomatic clojure code from the get-go
17:07	gtrak	dsrguru: if you don't care about laziness try mapv
17:07	Raynes	In that case, you might as well just have amalloy write all your code and avoid the suffering.
17:08	dsrguru	haha
17:08	dsrguru	gtrak: thanks I'm looking it up now
17:08	Chiron	Sorry, any one noticed my question? appreciate your time
17:09	cldwalker	if anyone has a moment, i'd appreciate any feedback on my first clojar, table - https://github.com/cldwalker/table
17:09	dsrguru	gtrak: mapv doesn't show up in my repl
17:09	dsrguru	,(doc mapv)
17:09	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a vector consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
17:09	gtrak	1.4
17:09	dsrguru	ah
17:09	gtrak	,(source mapv)
17:09	clojurebot	Source not found
17:10	dsrguru	gtrak: wait I'm running 1.4
17:10	yedi	what are "unrolled" arguments
17:10	gtrak	&(source mapv)
17:10	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
17:10	gtrak	dsrguru: well it should be there then :-)
17:10	brehaut	&(use 'clojure.repl)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ nil
17:10	brehaut	&(source mapv)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ Source not found nil
17:11	gtrak	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L6110
17:12	dsrguru	gtrak: so it turns out when I run the clojure repl directly, I have mapv, but when I run the repl through leiningen, I don't have it =O
17:13	technomancy	dsrguru: you're not running 1.4
17:13	dsrguru	technomancy: I'm running 1.4 in my regular clojure repl, but not when I run `lein repl' for some reason
17:13	dsrguru	maybe leiningen uses its own version of clojure, and mine is out of date
17:13	gtrak	yup
17:14	gtrak	dsrguru: for lein 1.x I keep around a test project for stuff like that
17:15	technomancy	dsrguru: you're running `lein repl` in a project that declares a dependency on Clojure 1.4?
17:16	dsrguru	technomancy: no I was just running `lein repl' as my inferior-lisp program in emacs, not for a specific project
17:16	dsrguru	gtrak: all right everything's working now, thanks
17:16	dnolen_	ibdknox: you've probably set some kind of Lisp record.
17:16	bhenry1	what is the version of java best for clojure on ubuntu?
17:16	dsrguru	so I don't even need my distro's clojure package if lein duplicates it
17:16	ibdknox	dnolen_: oh?
17:17	gtrak	bhenry: oracle jdk7 64-bit works fine
17:17	ibdknox	I wonder how many lines of Clojure are publicly available...
17:17	dnolen_	ibdknox: half a million lines of Lisp evaulated in 5 hours?
17:17	technomancy	dsrguru: right; installing clojure is widely seen as an antipattern
17:17	ibdknox	dnolen_: yeah probably
17:17	ibdknox	lol
17:18	gtrak	bhenry: try this ppa: https://launchpad.net/~webupd8team/+archive/java
17:18	raek	dsrguru: running `lein repl` outside a project means "I don't care what clojure version I get, just give me a repl"
17:18	technomancy	bhenry: `sudo apt-get install leiningen` should be all you need
17:18	technomancy	it'll pull in openjdk by default I think
17:18	bhenry	technomancy: that's perfect. thanks. is that lein1 still?
17:19	technomancy	bhenry: yeah, still a bit of a ways away from packaging 2.x
17:19	dsrguru	b
17:19	dsrguru	woops wrong buffer
17:20	ystael	It seems like midje-mode sends my facts to be evaluated in my currently open swank-clojure repl, which means they get the namespace-declaration context of the repl rather than the test file in which they live. Is this intentional?
17:21	raek	ystael: I don't think it does that for me...
17:21	ystael	(i.e., no test will work until i (use 'midje.sweet) in the swank-clojure repl)
17:21	iwo	hey, i'm seeing an error when trying to use the .. form:
17:21	raek	ystael: how do you run the tests? C-c ,?
17:21	iwo	"No matching method found: .prepare for class de.flapdoodle.embedmongo.MongoDBRuntime"
17:22	ystael	raek: C-c . actually, but both are midje-check-fact
17:22	iwo	but 'prepare' IS A METHOD on this class
17:23	raek	,(macroexpand '(.. MongoDBRuntime prepare))
17:23	clojurebot	(. MongoDBRuntime prepare)
17:24	Frozenlock	ibdknox: Is there a way to change the default "page not found" in noir?
17:24	Raynes	Yup.
17:24	Raynes	set-page!
17:24	hiredman	iwo: is it a public method? are you passing the right arguments? is a public method inherited from a private class?
17:24	Raynes	One moment, I'll get you an example.
17:24	raek	ystael: ok, C-c . fails for me too when the namespace hasn't been loaded
17:24	Frozenlock	Raynes: thanks, let me see the doc for this one
17:24	iwo	hiredman: here's the class:
17:24	iwo	https://github.com/flapdoodle-oss/embedmongo.flapdoodle.de/blob/master/src/main/java/de/flapdoodle/embedmongo/MongoDBRuntime.java
17:24	hiredman	iwo: I am not readding that
17:25	hiredman	but you should
17:25	raek	ystael: but after I have C-c C-k'ed the namespace C-c . works regardless of what namespace the repl is in
17:25	Raynes	Frozenlock: https://github.com/Raynes/refheap/blob/develop/src/refheap/views/home.clj#L10
17:25	raek	(so I think C-c . behaves the same as M-C-x)
17:26	ystael	raek: hm. i haven't been C-c C-k to compile and load the entire test file, that's probably the problem
17:26	iwo	hiredman: the method is public, it takes one argument and i am supplying an argument of the correct type, it is not inherited from a superclass
17:26	ystael	(i.e., it's entirely reasonable for my repl to object that no one told it to load midje.sweet)
17:26	ystael	let me try that
17:26	Frozenlock	Oh this is good for every html error code! Thank you very much :)
17:27	hiredman	iwo: are you sure the source you are reading matches the version of the jar you are using?
17:27	raek	it could be convenient if M-C-x and C-c . would require the namespace if it hasn't been loaded
17:27	ystael	raek: yep, that did it, thank you very much
17:27	raek	np :)
17:28	ystael	(alter ystael-pebkac inc) ; :)
17:28	iwo	raek: thanks, i had forgotten macroexpand, i'll try there
17:29	iwo	hiredman: yes, very sure. when i rearrange to not use .. the call works (maybe i'm misunderstanding ..)
17:29	raek	iwo: what does your call look like?
17:30	mmarczyk	ibdknox: wow 8-O
17:30	raek	(. Class staticMethod ...) and (Class/staticMethod ...) should work for static methods
17:30	raek	but not (.staticMethod Class ...)
17:30	iwo	raek: http://pastebin.com/c69VBd1Q
17:31	raek	iwo: you don't need the dots with ..
17:32	raek	(.. MongoDBRuntime (getDefaultInstance) (prepare ...) (start))
17:32	raek	or
17:32	iwo	raek: thank you!!
17:32	raek	(-> MongoDBRuntime (.getDefaultInstance) (.prepare ...) (.start))
17:33	raek	sorry, the -> line won't work if any of the methods are static
17:33	Raynes	iwo: Also, https://github.com/seancorfield/congomongo
17:33	Raynes	Not sure if you knew about that.
17:34	iwo	Raynes: yes, cheers!
17:35	iwo	i believe my colleagues have decided to go with Monger instead (http://clojuremongodb.info/)
17:35	mmarczyk	ibdknox: that's sooooo fun :-D -- https://www.refheap.com/paste/3316
17:35	Raynes	Yeah, it certain has pretty going for it.
17:36	ibdknox	:)
17:36	Raynes	mmarczyk: BTW, sorry you did all the work on the jython stuff just to end up not being able to use it.
17:37	mmarczyk	ibdknox: also fun is how (java.util.UUID/randomUUID) gets reevaluated (do you plan a "freeze this form" feature? -- erm, sorry to bug you already :-D)
17:37	mmarczyk	Raynes: not at all, that was fun
17:38	yehohanan7	hey, I am new to clojure and i am trying midje for testing. I just want to know how do you do complex assertions using midge like check for not null, check for size of the returned value from a function etc?
17:39	ibdknox	mmarczyk: huh, hadn't thought about that, maybe! In the near term we're focusing on being able to actually edit real things :)
17:40	mmarczyk	ibdknox: :-)
17:41	mmarczyk	ibdknox: sure... I still can't keep myself from mentioning that it would be nice for 1 ... 3 (and on?) to refer to previous forms' values... um, perhaps only once it's possible to edit real things though :-)
17:45	treehug	in clojurescript, is there a short cut for this kind of form? (set! (.-prop1 (.-prop2 (.-prop3 foo))))
17:46	bbloom	dnolen_: now you see why i had some extra time to work on cljs -- http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/25/salesforce-acquires-techstars-and-techcrunch-disrupt-alum-thinkfuse/ :-)
17:47	dnolen_	treehug: (set! (.. foo .-prop3 .-prop2 .-prop1) ...)
17:47	Bronsa	..? not ->?
17:47	dnolen_	treehug: (set! (.. foo -prop3 -prop2 -prop1) ...)
17:48	treehug	ah thanks
17:48	dnolen_	treehug: is what I meant.
17:49	alfborge	Raynes: thanks, I'll look into crouton. :)
17:49	dnolen_	bbloom: nice, so you're going to be taking a bit of a break? :)
17:50	xmux_	Is there some way to make the clojure compiler print something other than the whole compiler backtrace when compilation fails?
17:50	dnolen_	xmux_: >= 1.3 has pretty stacktraces. tools don't use it tho far as I know.
17:51	gfredericks	should the "clojure.core//" exception in the clojure reader be considered a bug since it prevents referring to cljs.core// ?
17:51	technomancy	fsvo "pretty"
17:51	xmux_	I don't want a prettier stack trace, I'm thinking something more like a list of error messages
17:51	gfredericks	(i.e., should it be generalized?)
17:52	dnolen_	xmux_: unmunged & mostly Clojure errors.
17:52	bbloom	dnolen_: not a big break -- i'd get too bored :-)
17:54	xmux_	Is that something I can enable in a lein project file? I'm already compiling with 1.3
17:54	technomancy	xmux_: the nicest stack traces come from clj-stacktrace, which has lein integration
17:54	thesaskwatch	is there a way to remove the "resources" prefix from compojure lookup location for resources?
17:55	weavejester	thesaskwatch: What prefix?
17:55	thesaskwatch	when I do (route/resources "/" ) it will lookup resource files in "resources/public" directory as far as I understand
17:56	amalloy	thesaskwatch: only because resources is on the classpath
17:56	thesaskwatch	I can change the public part with :root option
17:56	amalloy	(and the project root isn't, thank god)
17:56	Raynes	Actually, (route/resources "/") serves from resources/* doesn't it?
17:56	thesaskwatch	but I'd like to remove the resources part as well
17:56	weavejester	thesaskwatch: What amalloy said :) - Leiningen by default adds the resources directory to the classpath. You can change which directory via the project.clj file.
17:56	thesaskwatch	I'm using only maven, no leiningen
17:57	weavejester	Raynes: It serves from resources/public by default, otherwise it would expose your source code.
17:57	amalloy	thesaskwatch: i doubt you really want to do that. that exposes, for example, your source
17:57	thesaskwatch	nope, I'm having source code in WEB-INF dir
17:57	Raynes	weavejester: Ah, I see.
17:57	thesaskwatch	it will not be in the war
17:57	weavejester	thesaskwatch: When you create a war, the resources directory will go away
17:57	Raynes	weavejester: What do you think of lib-noir btw? Well rounded?
17:58	weavejester	thesaskwatch: It puts the resources in the war classpath directory (WEB-INF I think)
17:58	thesaskwatch	if it goes away then how do I distribute the resources?
17:58	dracman	Kann das sein das Mori fett geworden ist?
17:58	thesaskwatch	ah ok
17:58	dracman	(sorry wrong channel)
17:58	xmux_	Why would I want to see the full stack trace of the compiler when compiling my program fails? Am I doing something wrong? Doesn't this bother anybody else?
17:58	thesaskwatch	ok, so is the "resources" part hardcoded in compojure?
17:59	weavejester	thesaskwatch: No, Compojure just picks up resources from the classpath. Leiningen happens to put the resources subdirectory on the classpath.
17:59	technomancy	xmux_: there's a branch of clj-stacktrace that trims all that crap out
18:00	weavejester	Raynes: I'd be tempted to split lib-noir up further, but I like small, focused libraries.
18:00	gfredericks	oh cljs.reader generalizes it; that's interesting
18:00	technomancy	weavejester: thank goodness you do =)
18:00	Raynes	weavejester: That was actually my first inclination (therapy), but ibdknox wanted to keep things a little more contained.
18:00	weavejester	brb
18:00	thesaskwatch	then why putting the html file in root war directory and using (route/resources "/" { :root "/" } ) doesn't work?
18:00	xmux_	technomancy: Ok, thanks, I'll try that
18:01	Raynes	weavejester: In general, all of these things are very lightweight and as long as noir as around, they will all be maintained in tandem.
18:01	thesaskwatch	ok, maybe I'll try with public directory as a starting point
18:01	weavejester	thesaskwatch: The resources function serves resource - i.e. things on the classpath.
18:01	ibdknox	my point was mainly that if you wanted stateful sessions, what's the probability you don't want stateful cookies too?
18:02	ibdknox	there's little else in there
18:02	weavejester	thesaskwatch: The root of a war isn't on the classpath
18:02	thesaskwatch	weavejester: are you sure? I remember using it in spring mvc projects
18:04	weavejester	thesaskwatch: As far as I know. Java tends to confuse matters, however, and for web projects has a different type of resource.
18:04	weavejester	thesaskwatch: Ring/Compojure just use the normal type of resource
18:05	thesaskwatch	weavejester: ok, then I'll just add it to /src/main/resources, so it should get to /WEB-INF/classess and thus effectively root
18:06	weavejester	thesaskwatch: src/main/resources should be the same as resource/main/resources, as both src and resources are on the classpath.
18:06	thesaskwatch	resource will be not on classpath, as it is standard maven setup
18:07	weavejester	thesaskwatch: Ah, you're using Maven. I try to avoid that :)
18:08	thesaskwatch	I want to make the build standard java env compatible - so no leiningen for me
18:09	thesaskwatch	ok, the src/main/resources with :root "/" does work
18:11	thesaskwatch	anyone else thinks adding .exe extension for web services is mindfuck?
18:11	weavejester	thesaskwatch: exe extension?
18:12	talios	euu
18:12	weavejester	thesaskwatch: I don't think you want to set your root to "/" - that'll expose all your classpath
18:12	weavejester	thesaskwatch: i.e. people will be able to read your Clojure source code.
18:13	thesaskwatch	weavejester: ok, I'm trying to check it now .. but anyway .. this is an internal app
18:16	thesaskwatch	ok, so now I left the defaul root (public) and moved index.html into /src/main/resources/public
18:16	thesaskwatch	seems like the right solution to me
18:16	thesaskwatch	and it works too
18:18	mmarczyk	Raynes: is the current state of RefHeap's develop supposed to be unrunnable in lein?
18:19	Raynes	mmarczyk: It should run fine in lein 2.
18:19	mmarczyk	Raynes: it doesn't for me :-(
18:19	Raynes	mmarczyk: What happens?
18:20	mmarczyk	oh wait
18:21	mmarczyk	Raynes: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3317
18:24	Raynes	mmarczyk: I am unable to reproduce.
18:26	mmarczyk	:-(
18:29	thesaskwatch	thank you weavejester
18:34	KirinDave	Don't you hate when libraries are everything you need except the last 1%?
18:35	KirinDave	milieu, for example, is great. Except that for some crazy reason it only ever uses clojure.java.io/resource to load resource files. You can't specify arbitrary locations for config files.
18:35	technomancy	could be worse; could be a framework that's everything you need except the last 1% =)
18:35	KirinDave	In general, the obsession with resources seems crazy to me. Operationally flawed for config
18:35	KirinDave	You have to _cut a build_ to apply configuration changes?
18:35	KirinDave	Insane.
18:35	KirinDave	Utterly insane.
18:36	nDuff	You _can_ have a classloader that looks somewhere other than within a jar for a resource.
18:37	gtrak	erg... why not use an inputstream like a normal person?
18:37	technomancy	KirinDave: most deployment schemes place a dir on the classpath in front of the jars
18:37	technomancy	cutting new jars to change a config val is crazy
18:38	gtrak	or just call slurp?
18:38	KirinDave	Yeah
18:39	KirinDave	technomancy: Man that is not an inexplicable deploy nightmare waiting to happen. :\
18:39	technomancy	we used it without any trouble for 2 years at my last job
18:40	technomancy	well, it's possible there was trouble we just couldn't see because it was masked by huge piles of chef craziness
18:40	technomancy	maslow's hierarchy of deployments, etc
18:40	KirinDave	I've never done it this way
18:41	KirinDave	is it sensible then to say java -cp /var/conf/alexandr -jar alexandr-BLAH.jar argz?
18:41	lynaghk	KirinDave: I liked your CLJS:JS analogy. I take it the next conj we'll all be wearing tophats and smoking cigars
18:41	KirinDave	lynaghk: Monocles are also key
18:41	technomancy	KirinDave: we had lein-tar spit out a wrapper shell script
18:42	KirinDave	technomancy: Our deployment process cannot tolerate that.
18:42	technomancy	KirinDave: you use uberjars?
18:42	KirinDave	We do, but the way we get them
18:42	KirinDave	And the way things are set up
18:42	KirinDave	(chef craziness, you see)
18:43	technomancy	well according to my employer everyone should use env vars
18:43	technomancy	but screw that; I'm not restarting my JVM just to change a single setting
18:43	KirinDave	Env vars are brittle anyways
18:44	KirinDave	Way too easy to change and tough to standardize.
18:44	KirinDave	Config files are superior because their scope is so limited. If you want cascading semantics your conf file tool can build it and ostensibly do so responsibly.
18:45	lynaghk	^ whoa, that is my "sleeping" macbook air. dying to be on teh internetz.
18:51	cemerick	lynaghk: it heeds the call of the mothership :-P
18:52	lynaghk	cemerick: I'm still not used to this always-on computer stuff.
18:56	mmarczyk	Raynes: technomancy: so when lein / lein2 pulls in the deps for refheap, it only gets ring-1.1.1.jar and never gets the jars for ring-core etc. :-(
18:57	mmarczyk	I may be going crazy, though... I'll probably just sleep on it.
19:03	jlewis	anyone know ballpark the size of the average entry in PersistentHashMap?
19:10	mmarczyk	jlewis: the bookkeeping around a key/val pair is exactly two pointers per "regular" node involved in storing it, with the number of such nodes dependent on how long a suffix of the hash is required to pick a unique spot; hash collisions are handled by association lists (well, actually arrays are used)
19:11	mmarczyk	if that's what you mean
19:11	mmarczyk	(by "regular" node I mean not-a-HashCollisionNode)
19:13	KirinDave	Oh I forgot this fun part
19:13	KirinDave	When you include a library that has much older dependencies than yours
19:13	KirinDave	and the URLClassLoader just flips out.
19:13	KirinDave	technomancy: Has a more elegant solution to this problem come up, or is the answer still "exclusions, exclusions everywhere?"
19:17	nDuff	KirinDave: ...well... better management of transitive dependencies is something OSGi tries to add to the Java ecosystem, but I'm not sure I'd describe it as elegant.
19:21	fenton	where would i find the documentation to describe (ns ^{:docs "" :author ""} my-ns). I.e. I want to know what are the possible options to this thing ^{. Is that a metadata symbol or something?
19:27	technomancy	fenton: the docstring is the only thing that's used; you don't need to use metadata syntax for that
19:28	technomancy	just (ns my.ns "It does a thing with another thing" [...])
19:28	fenton	ok, but wouldn't you get a nicely formatted ?javadoc? or something with those extra bits?, and where would that type of thing be documented if anywhere?
19:28	fenton	hard too good ^{ symbols...
19:29	fenton	*google
19:31	tmciver	fenton: that's metadata. metadata is just a clojure map and it starts with ^
19:31	technomancy	the docstring shows up in doc and (I believe) apropos
19:31	technomancy	having it in html documentation would depend on the tool you use to generate your docs
19:31	technomancy	fenton: but authorship info doesn't belong in metadata anyway, it belongs in git
19:31	fenton	thanks guys...really appreciate the hand holding while i get started in this great stuff!
19:34	fenton	whats the normal way to create docs for clojure code?
19:34	technomancy	fenton: doc/intro.md
19:34	technomancy	at least, that should be the normal way
19:34	technomancy	you can autogenerate API reference docs too with stuff like marginalia, but that's no replacement for writing real prose
19:34	fenton	got it. real prose being pure clojure code without comments, i take it? :)
19:35	technomancy	no, prose is just like ... english text
19:35	technomancy	like https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/master/doc
19:35	fenton	ok...understand
19:40	brehaut	technomancy: i think marginalia is almost more useful as a way to read the program rather than learn the api
19:40	Raynes	brehaut: It is. I've given up on it for API documentation.
19:40	Raynes	I still think it could be extended to do both well, but I don't have the interface skills and time to make it happen.
20:06	fenton	I'm trying to use clojure to represent a tree, where each node has a human readable string, (the label), and an id. I'll need to insert sub-trees, search for the children of a provided id, etc... any thoughts?
20:06	technomancy	,(doc update-in)
20:06	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
20:07	fenton	zippers seem to be just a right/left/down type of data structure...but I'd need to be able to say: give me the first level of child nodes under node XYZ...etc..
20:07	fenton	I'm not sure if I should just use a list.
20:08	ohpauleez	fenton: Yeah, I'd just use standard clojure maps. You can use get-in, update-in, and the threading macro (->)
20:08	technomancy	clojurebot: what's the best way to represent x?
20:08	clojurebot	maxine is http://research.sun.com/projects/maxine/
20:08	technomancy	=(
20:08	ohpauleez	technomancy: but maxine is a great project
20:09	technomancy	clojurebot: what's the best way to represent x is <reply>the best way to represent X is as a regular clojure map. (for most values of x)
20:09	clojurebot	In Ordnung
20:09	technomancy	ohpauleez: true
20:09	ohpauleez	fenton: If you need to do raw tree traversal, zippers work fine for that sort of thing.
20:10	ohpauleez	fenton: Since clojure maps are functions of their keys, and keywords are functions of maps, most of the navigating you want to do will look like:
20:10	mebaran151	anybody know if ring guarantees parameters with the same name will appear in the vector in the same order they appear in on the form?
20:11	ohpauleez	(-> tree-map :parent :child :child2 :child3)
20:11	ohpauleez	or (get-in tree-map [:parent :child :child2 :child3])
20:12	ohpauleez	fenton: knowledgeable
20:12	ohpauleez	oops
20:12	ohpauleez	fenton: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/get-in
20:14	ohpauleez	mebaran151: if they're in the vector, yes they should be in the same order as they were transmitted. If they're converted to a map, no the ordering can differ
20:14	ohpauleez	I don't know the details, but that's my best guess
20:25	mebaran151	ohpauleez: ring claims to put them in a vector, but is this a behavior I can rely upon, that the browser will include it in the same order?
20:25	tyre77	hey irc://chat.freenode.net:6667/#clojure, I'm getting some nasty Java stack traces when running most lein commands, anyone available to assist?
20:25	weavejester	mebaran151: They do appear in the same order.
20:26	mebaran151	ah thanks
20:26	weavejester	mebaran151: Assuming the browser transmits in the right order, which I believe they do.
20:37	mebaran151	along these lines, is there a function that will take a map of vectors {:a [1 2 3], :b [3 4 5]} and transform it to a vector of maps [{:a 1 :b 3} {:a 2 :b 4} ...]?
20:39	yedi	does mostly lazy still exist
20:42	xeqi	~anyone
20:42	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
20:43	amalloy	&(let [keys [:a :b], m {:a [1 2 3], :b [3 4 5]}] (apply map (fn [& vals] (apply hash-map (interleave keys vals))) (map m keys)))
20:43	lazybot	⇒ ({:a 1, :b 3} {:a 2, :b 4} {:a 3, :b 5})
20:43	amalloy	&(let [keys [:a :b], m {:a [1 2 3], :b [3 4 5]}] (apply map (fn [& vals] (zipmap keys vals)) (map m keys)))
20:43	lazybot	⇒ ({:b 3, :a 1} {:b 4, :a 2} {:b 5, :a 3})
20:43	amalloy	i always forget about zipmap
20:44	mebaran151	I figure I could make zipmap do it
20:45	tyre77	I'm getting this (https://gist.github.com/2992360) java.lang.reflect.InvocationTargetException when I run lein help or lein new.
20:46	tyre77	Tried self-install after deleting standalone, updating to no avail
20:47	xeqi	are you in a project?
20:48	xeqi	well, not if you're doing lein new ..
20:48	tyre77	no, I'm trying to create one
20:48	tyre77	yeah
20:50	amalloy	probably some bad stuff in ~/.m2 or ~/.lein
20:50	xeqi	you could try to rm ~/.lein and try again, or clear ~/.m2
20:51	xeqi	that exception could be better.. wonder if lein2 also throws one that bad
20:52	xeqi	I don't htink its ~/.lein stuff since the leiningen namespace works
20:52	tyre77	I can lein repl
20:53	tyre77	what is in ~/.m2?
20:53	xeqi	thats where lein/maven downloads dependencies to
20:54	xeqi	for caching, so it doesn't d/l them everytime
20:54	tyre77	okay
20:54	yedi	how can I find out which version of clojure I'm running
20:54	tyre77	should I just nuke it and try again?
20:54	xeqi	that would be my first step
20:54	tyre77	I know that's not an interesting solution haha
20:54	tyre77	okay
20:54	xeqi	&clojure-version
20:54	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 4, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
20:57	tyre77	success!
20:58	tyre77	thanks for the help :)
21:09	yedi	so i just set up lein/swank-clojure on my computer and it uses 1.3.0
21:09	yedi	is 1.4.0 not supported yet? or did i just fuck something up
21:18	gfredericks	if I want to do SVG in clojurescript, is raphael the best option?
21:19	xeqi	yedi: what version of lein?
21:20	ohpauleez	gfredericks: Take a look at some of Chouser's code - I know his two CLJS presentation libs are built on top of SVG graphics
21:20	yedi	hm
21:20	xeqi	and what version of clojure is in your project.clj?
21:20	ohpauleez	Worst case is using raphael - which is a pretty good worst case
21:21	yedi	1.7.1
21:21	yedi	1.3.0
21:21	yedi	is in the project.clj
21:21	xeqi	change that to 1.4.0
21:21	yedi	but that was created by lein
21:21	yedi	ok
21:21	xeqi	yeah, when 1.7.1 was released, 1.3.0 was latest
21:22	xeqi	so it used that by default for new projects
21:22	yedi	does that mean the repl swank-clojure uses will be 1.3.0
21:22	yedi	or does changing it in lein fix thaat
21:23	xeqi	swank-clojure will use whatever is defined in the project
21:23	yedi	ok cool
21:23	yedi	one final question, is there an emacs equivalent to holding down shift and moving left/right
21:23	yedi	to select words
21:23	gfredericks	WAT? there are two other cljs presentation libs?
21:24	muhoo	one can never have enough cljs presentation libs.
21:27	gfredericks	okay raphael it is
21:51	jlewis	mmarczyk: thanks!
21:51	jlewis	that's very helpful
21:53	jlewis	mmarczyk: what would really be nice is a document that shows some analysis on the data structures, like in Guava: http://code.google.com/p/memory-measurer/wiki/ElementCostInDataStructures
21:55	mmarczyk	jlewis: wow, that's a nice page! thanks for the link!
21:56	mmarczyk	hm, might think of making sth similar for Clojure(Script) PDSs
21:58	jlewis	isn't it great? a very handy reference
21:58	jlewis	for when YourTooLazy to break out YourKit..
21:59	mmarczyk	:-)
21:59	mmarczyk	also, going by the name, memory-measurer might be just the project I've been looking for lately
22:05	wingy	have you checked out: http://vimeo.com/40281991
22:09	wingy	is it possible to use clojurescript for ExtJS?
22:09	wingy	or another MVC framework
22:15	eggsby	wingy: have you looked at domina or pinot?
22:18	wingy	im brand new here
22:18	wingy	have been using javascript all along
22:19	wingy	pivot seems outdated
22:19	dnolen	wingy: did you try out the Light Table playground that came out today?
22:20	wingy	dnolen: no i did not
22:20	wingy	i will!
22:20	dnolen	wingy: it's possible to use an MVC framework - CLJS supports decent JS interop, but that's probably going against the grain. Hoping a more idiomatic GUI oriented framework will appear sometime in the future.
22:20	wingy	dnolen: yeah i hope so
22:20	wingy	in case im switching to clojure/script i would just make the frontend work with ExtJS
22:20	dnolen	wingy: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/06/24/its-playtime/
22:21	wingy	then hoping to use some more idiomatic framework when it comes out
22:21	wingy	cant believe here raised so much money from kickstarter
22:21	wingy	its incredible
22:21	wingy	like the new c9
22:21	dnolen	wingy: people are already happily using CLJS so I wouldn't let that stop you from experimenting on your own.
22:21	wingy	what lang is he using to develop?
22:21	dnolen	wingy: Clojure & ClojureScript
22:22	wingy	so cool!
22:22	wingy	i look at clojure and it is soo beautiful
22:22	dnolen	wingy: it is! :D
22:24	dnolen	wingy: I'm a JS programmer myself, I think there's a lot to like if you like JS. CLJS is great, if rough around the edges (though I'm biased, I work on it)
22:27	wingy	i dont quite enjoy coding in js as much anylonger .. that's why i moved to langs like coffeescript and now livescript
22:28	wingy	livescript does a very decent job in providing FP concepts and I have learned a lot by using it
22:28	wingy	but i don't think it will ever be as popular as clojure/script
22:30	wingy	i wonder if clojurescript is suited for web development?
22:30	wingy	seems pretty early for it?
22:30	wingy	will it gain popularity you think?
22:30	dnolen	wingy: heh, that's mostly what it's for.
22:30	dnolen	wingy: people are already using it for that in production.
22:31	dnolen	wingy: popularity - only time will tell. Light Table is good advertising that's for sure. I think we need source maps to make debugging sensible for newcomers.
22:31	wingy	yeah
22:31	dnolen	wingy: experienced JS devs who like Clojure won't have many problems - that's mostly the folks using it.
22:32	wingy	i like how serious clojure/script is .. i can count on the maintenance
22:32	wingy	dnolen: so its no problems to use clojurescript with ExtJS/Dojo etc?
22:32	wingy	even if the code will look OOPish
22:32	wingy	my entire project is based on ExtJS frontend
22:33	dnolen	wingy: can't say since I've never used those. I think it could work, but I think there will likely be an impedence mismatch. It might be possible to work around - but I haven't heard any involved dev stories about CLJS ExtJS integration.
22:34	dnolen	wingy: FWIW the same issues occur with GClosure which CLJS ships with. People are slowly figuring out what works best. So still a bit wild west at the moment.
22:34	wingy	ok ill do my research
22:34	wingy	CLJS is ClojureScript?
22:34	dnolen	wingy: yes
22:37	wingy	is it true that clojure programmers tend to know more about programming than javascript developers?
22:37	wingy	since it requires a lot to get FP
22:39	dnolen	wingy: rhickey is a programming language geek and is pretty vocal about his influences so - Clojure community has a bit of that.
22:40	wingy	what about using libs like: https://www.braintreepayments.com/docs/java
22:40	dnolen	wingy: yes Clojure pushes FP the hardest of any dynamically typed language I'm aware of. So lots to learn.
22:40	wingy	https://www.braintreepayments.com/docs/node
22:40	wingy	using clojure/script means that i can either use their java or node.js api library right?
22:41	wingy	(java is pretty much everywhere)
22:41	wingy	and node.js is gaining popularity
22:41	dnolen	wingy: brainproxy works a bit on Node support. Yes using Java libs from CLojure is pretty straightforward.
22:41	gfredericks	CLojure: because you kind of miss common lisp.
22:42	wingy	is clojure promoting XML over JSON?
22:42	dnolen	wingy: no, it promotes Clojure expressions over both.
22:42	wingy	do i have to configure a lot of things in XML when using clojure?
22:42	dnolen	wingy: no
22:42	gfredericks	nope
22:42	wingy	thank god
22:43	dnolen	wingy: yes, thanks to technomancy's hard work we're spared that. Wasn't so clear in the early days.
22:43	wingy	(im a pretty crazy guy, 2 weeks ago i moved over all my code from JavaScript to CoffeeScript, then 3 days ago to LiveScript, now I wanna move over to Clojure/ClojureScript)
22:44	wingy	thus ditching nodejs/expressjs and all tools i have used :)
22:44	wingy	lets see if im going to do that
22:44	dnolen	wingy: CoffeeScript is nice, but learning curve is shallow since it's not significantly differnt from patterns in popular languages.
22:44	wingy	yeah i start to love FP .. saves me a lot of time
22:45	wingy	OOP seems to just take time from me
22:45	wingy	what to extend what .. methods .. bla ..
22:46	wingy	how come that there is not many in clojurescript channel
22:46	dnolen	wingy: ClojureScript is an implementation of Clojure. So questions here are relevant.
22:47	cgag	i didn't realize there was one
22:48	wingy	join!
22:49	wingy	is clojurescript imitating clojure exactly (without some features not possible in js of course) without having different syntax/features etc?
22:51	gfredericks	imitating as much as makes sense, modulo the amount of effort put in so far
22:51	dnolen	wingy: CLJS is missing quite a few things you'll find on the JVM. concurrency stuff (which might change in the future), runtime manipulatable namespaces / vars, no inline macros, etc.
22:51	wingy	yeah but everything else is exactly the same?
22:51	wingy	its not another version of clojure
22:51	dnolen	wingy: no we try to change as little as possible.
22:52	wingy	awesome
22:52	wingy	feels cool to be able to drop down to Java/Clojure and know everything is the same
22:52	wingy	and you have extended features
22:54	dnolen	wingy: yes, and I imagine the gap between the two will shrink over time as we figure out good ways to implement things.
22:54	wingy	i have a lot to read about clojure/script
23:01	dnolen	first working constraint run in core.logic cKanren ...
23:04	wingy	is it recommended to use clojure/java or clojurescript/node on server?
23:05	xeqi	&((fn [{:keys {a b} :as c :or {:a 1 :b 2}}] [a b c]) {})
23:05	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil {}]
23:06	dnolen	wingy: way more libraries, users, resources etc. for clojure/java
23:06	xeqi	is there a way to get that :or to work in the destructoring?
23:06	wingy	i see .. then clojure on java it is
23:06	mmarczyk	&((fn [{:keys {a b} :as c :or {a 1 b 2}}] [a b c]) {})
23:06	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil {}]
23:06	mmarczyk	hm
23:07	mmarczyk	oh
23:07	mmarczyk	&((fn [{:keys [a b] :as c :or {a 1 b 2}}] [a b c]) {})
23:07	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 {}]
23:07	xeqi	bah
23:07	xeqi	thanks
23:07	xeqi	actually..
23:07	mmarczyk	I believe :or keys can't be keywords
23:07	mmarczyk	&((fn [{:keys [a b] :as c :or {:a 1 :b 2}}] [a b c]) {})
23:07	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil {}]
23:07	mmarczyk	yup
23:08	mmarczyk	tripped me up more than once
23:09	mmarczyk	though either approach makes sense really.
23:11	xeqi	&((fn [{:keys {a b} :as c :or {a 1 b 2}}] [a b c]) {:a 1})
23:11	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil {:a 1}]
23:11	xeqi	&((fn [{:keys {a b} :as c :or {a 1 b 2}}] [a b c]) {'a 1})
23:11	lazybot	⇒ [nil nil {a 1}]
23:11	xeqi	&((fn [{:keys {a b} :as c :or {a 1 b 2}}] [a b c]) {a 1})
23:11	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: a in this context
23:12	xeqi	heh, apparently I copied something wrong there
23:13	xeqi	looks like it works like I want.. must be a problem elsewhere
23:13	xeqi	mmarczyk: thanks
23:13	mmarczyk	np
23:14	cgag_	I was messing with aleph last night and was running this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3307
23:14	cgag_	i opened 3 tabs and sent 3 request really quickly
23:14	cgag_	they should have finished around the same time shouldn't they?
23:15	cgag_	but it seemed like the requests were being handled synchronously
23:16	xeqi	future uses a thread pool right?
23:16	mmarczyk	right
23:17	mmarczyk	the send-off agent pool
23:24	meiji11	hello, fellow clojureville-ians.
23:24	cgag_	hi
23:26	uvtc	meiji11, hi clojurionado.
23:26	gfredericks	clots
23:27	gfredericks	clarks?
23:27	gfredericks	clocks.
23:28	uvtc	The seats here are upholstered with rich Clojurian leather.
23:28	gfredericks	clerks...
23:32	wingy	what is the best test suite for clojure?
23:33	cgag_	i'm curious about that as well, clojure.test vs midje vs ??
23:33	lazybot	cgag_: Definitely not.
23:33	gfredericks	clojure.test or midge or test.generative or assert
23:33	gfredericks	midje?
23:33	gfredericks	midje is more likely it has a 'j'
23:33	gfredericks	or clj-unit
23:33	uvtc	Which is the simplest and easiest?
23:34	gfredericks	clojure.test
23:34	gfredericks	probably
23:34	uvtc	That's probably my first stop then. (thanks gfredericks)
23:34	gfredericks	what is the best test sweet for clojure?
23:38	brainproxy	wingy: I've got a project I started about 2 months ago to allow clojurescript and node to be used together in the same way you can use coffeescript and node together, i.e. w/o having to jump through extra hoops
23:39	brainproxy	however, I hit a point where I realized that to make it work really well, I needed to actually learn clojure :D instead of just messing around
23:39	brainproxy	so then I read the OReilly book and have since been happy tooling around in clojure land ... haven't quite made it back yet to the pastures of NodeJS
23:40	brainproxy	but I plan to do so, and finish what I started
23:42	gfredericks	why is (route/resources "/") not doing what I want? :(
23:43	xeqi	because you want something else?
23:44	gfredericks	I want it to serve the file "resources/foo.txt" when I request "/foo.txt"
23:44	gfredericks	it gives me 404s
23:45	wingy	brainproxy: what are the benefits of running clojurescript on node.js than using clojure?
23:45	wingy	why would i do that
23:45	wingy	and miss all the concurrency benefits etc
23:45	wingy	gfredericks: are you using noir? is that the best web server for clojure?
23:45	cgag_	maybe memory consumption
23:46	brainproxy	wingy: that's a good point, and is a reason to favor working with clojure/jvm on the server-side, rather than cljs/node
23:46	gfredericks	wingy: using compojure; have never used noir, but a lotta folk do
23:46	xeqi	gfredericks: can you move it to resources/public/foo.txt ?
23:46	gfredericks	xeqi: ah that's it I bet
23:46	brainproxy	wingy: however, some folks really like the single-threaded, event-driven programming style
23:46	gfredericks	this is why I ask questions in #clojure. because sometimes somebody knows the answer.
23:47	brainproxy	and node has a nice modules system and active developer community around it
23:50	wingy	feel that you are missing a lot of the power of clojure server side if you don't use java
23:51	wingy	i think im going to use clojure if im converting
23:51	cgag_	i think that's the way to go
23:51	wingy	do i have to have a lot of Java knowledge?
23:52	brainproxy	wingy: i think it just depends on the use case, but having spent about a month in clojure/jvm, i'm definitely favoring it over nodejs for many things
23:52	wingy	does it help me in any way to know Java?
23:52	wingy	eg. do i ever have to debug in java or read java
23:52	cgag_	for doing java interop
23:52	wingy	brainproxy: could you give examples
23:52	cgag_	if you want to use a java library
23:52	wingy	cgag_: yeah
23:53	wingy	i think i have to .. services usually have java libs but not clojure
23:53	wingy	a pity .. or i could just use HTTP i guess :)
23:53	cgag_	it's not really hard though
23:53	brainproxy	wingy: well, i already find I prefer working w/ ring+compojure+enlive+hiccup+clutch over the various stacks I built with expressjs, cradle, etc.
23:54	cgag_	for basic stuff at least
23:54	brainproxy	wingy: however, I have yet to see the clojure equivalent of SockJS
23:55	brainproxy	sock (and socket.io for that matter) are really nice and super easy to develop with
23:55	xeqi	cgag_: did you figure your aleph question out?
23:55	cgag_	i did not
23:55	cgag_	but i haven't really tried, i was just hoping someone would know something
23:56	brehaut	brainproxy: that sort of websockety stuff is probably more aleph than just ring
23:57	brainproxy	brehaut: sure, that makes sense
23:57	xeqi	I was thinking the futures end up in the same thread in the threadpool, might be able to see by sending (.getName (Thread/currentThread)) back
23:57	xeqi	*might end up
23:58	cgag_	i'll give that a shot