#clojure – 2012-06-24

2012-06-24

00:00	gfredericks	1) your call to print is causing things to be printed (a side effect)
00:00	y3di	im gettin the same error that this guy had: https://gist.github.com/1326747
00:00	gfredericks	2) print is returning nil, and those nils are being collected into a list which is the return value of the for expression; that list of nils is being printed at the repl because the repl prints the return value of the expression you give it
00:01	gfredericks	so two things are printed: "0123" and "(nil nil nil nil)"
00:01	gfredericks	and they're somewhat interleaved in the output
00:01	SrPx	actually
00:02	SrPx	if that was true then I would get the output "0123 (nil nil nil nil)". but I'm getting the output "(0123 nil nil nil nil)"
00:02	SrPx	how is the 1234 getting inside the parenthesis
00:02	gfredericks	welp
00:02	gfredericks	for is lazy
00:02	gfredericks	it returns immediately with a lazy seq
00:02	gfredericks	the repl say "oh I have a seq; that means I need to print an open paren and the print the contents"
00:03	gfredericks	so it prints the open paren and then proceeds to read the contents of the seq
00:03	gfredericks	which causes the side effects
00:03	gfredericks	you might expect (0nil 1nil 2nil 3nil) or something like that
00:03	gfredericks	,(for [a '[0 1 2 3]] (print a))
00:03	clojurebot	(0123nil nil nil nil)
00:03	gfredericks	,(for [a '(0 1 2 3)] (print a))
00:03	clojurebot	(01nil 2nil 3nil nil)
00:03	gfredericks	ah like that ^
00:04	gfredericks	the reason you don't get something more interleaved like that, and instead get the whole "0123" up front is because some seqs are chunked for optimization
00:04	gfredericks	so when you request the first thing, the first 32 things are computed. or 4 in this case since there are only 4.
00:04	SrPx	wow
00:04	gfredericks	this whole thing can be avoided if
00:04	SrPx	,(for [a '[0 1 2 3]] (print a))
00:04	clojurebot	(0123nil nil nil nil)
00:05	gfredericks	you don't mix laziness with side effects
00:05	SrPx	,(for [a '[0 1 2 3]] (print a))
00:05	clojurebot	(0123nil nil nil nil)
00:05	SrPx	,(for [a '[0 1 2 3]] (print a))
00:05	clojurebot	(0123nil nil nil nil)
00:05	SrPx	wat
00:05	gfredericks	for is lazy and print is a side effect
00:05	gfredericks	doseq is good for side effects
00:05	SrPx	how did you manage to get that different output
00:05	gfredericks	,(doseq [a (range 4)] (print a))
00:05	clojurebot	0123
00:05	gfredericks	SrPx: using a list instead of a vector
00:05	SrPx	oh I see
00:05	gfredericks	vectors are chunked, lists are not
00:05	gfredericks	apparently
00:06	SrPx	,(for [a '(0 1 2 3)] (print a))
00:06	clojurebot	(01nil 2nil 3nil nil)
00:06	gfredericks	you got chunked output originally because range is also chunked
00:06	SrPx	,(for [a '(0 1 2 3)] (print a))
00:06	clojurebot	(01nil 2nil 3nil nil)
00:06	gfredericks	,(for [a (take 4 (iterate inc 0))] (print a))
00:06	clojurebot	(01nil 2nil 3nil nil)
00:06	gfredericks	^ that's another way to avoid chunking
00:06	SrPx	hm
00:07	gfredericks	99% of the time you don't have to think about these things
00:07	SrPx	anyway
00:07	SrPx	for generates a list
00:07	gfredericks	yep
00:07	SrPx	would be more to a list comprehension on python than python's for itself right
00:07	gfredericks	correct
00:07	SrPx	(=
00:08	SrPx	very cool.
00:08	gfredericks	so the second question was about a succincter syntax for function composition?
00:09	SrPx	I dont know the word succincter but well, just asking if some syntax sugars are possible
00:10	gfredericks	with macros most sugars are possible, within a couple constraints
00:10	gfredericks	1) you still have to use s-expressions -- i.e., only what the clojure reader accepts
00:11	gfredericks	2) macros have to be called as a list, i.e. (macro-name ...other-things...)
00:11	SrPx	so I definitely cant make something like (+ 3*2 2) >> 8
00:11	SrPx	(not that I want that, just wondering)
00:11	gfredericks	per constraint 2, you could arrange that IF that expression were wrapped in a macro that was managing it for you
00:11	gfredericks	well
00:12	gfredericks	constraint 1 will probably say that 3*2 is unreadable
00:12	gfredericks	but (+ 3 * 2 2) should be possible
00:12	gfredericks	,(read-string "3*2")
00:12	clojurebot	#<NumberFormatException java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 3*2>
00:12	SrPx	gfredericks: should it?
00:13	gfredericks	SrPx: if it was wrapped in a macro; e.g. (with-funny-syntax (+ 3 * 2 2))
00:13	SrPx	gfredericks: how? + is not a macro so... ?
00:13	gfredericks	or I suppose you could also define a macro called +
00:13	gfredericks	different tradeoffs in each case
00:18	bhenry	has anyone else run into this? http://i.imgur.com/kVdJB.png
00:18	bhenry	i can't figure out where my code is making that happen.
00:19	gfredericks	bhenry: that's interesting looking
00:20	gfredericks	bhenry: you have an re-matches in your code somewhere?
00:20	bhenry	nope!
00:20	bhenry	it must be used in ibdknox's remote stuff with his fetch library
00:21	gfredericks	it looks like something that could get compiled from (let [[x y z] (re-matches ...)] ...)
00:21	gfredericks	but in clojure when re-matches returns nil then it should just bind x y and z to nil
00:21	gfredericks	rather than crash
00:21	gfredericks	I can't imagine cljs behaving differently
00:22	gfredericks	surely someone would have noticed by now :)
00:22	gfredericks	but can't say more than that without seeing the source for that line
00:22	gfredericks	and I'm going to bed anyhow
03:04	michaelr525	2.5 hours of full channel sleep
04:54	michaelr525	4.5 hours of full channel sleep
04:54	Erika_Mustermann	hush
05:52	muhoo	zzzzz
05:52	muhoo	this has been a much less chatty channel in recent months than it used to be
05:52	muhoo	not sure tht's a bad thing tho
06:00	michaelr525	muhoo: if you want to sleep, sleep! don't talk!
06:24	bartj	hello, can someone please have a look at this tiny example of multimethods: http://pastie.org/4142109
06:24	antares_	clojurebot: anyone
06:24	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
06:25	bartj	I am not sure why the multimethod is not getting executed. Instead it throws the error: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No method in multimethod 'test' for dispatch value: true (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
06:27	antares_	bartj: because you defined implementations for [true] and [false]
06:27	antares_	not true and false
06:27	antares_	2nd argument to defmethod is an exact value, not a vector: https://github.com/michaelklishin/welle/blob/master/src/clojure/clojurewerkz/welle/conversion.clj#L310
06:28	bartj	ok, I think you mean the first argument?
06:29	bartj	because when I do this: (defmethod mtest true [_] (println "hello"))
06:29	bartj	(defmethod mtest false [_] (println "world"))
06:29	bartj	it works
06:29	antares_	yes, that's the 2nd argument
06:29	Guest52069	hi
06:30	antares_	bartj: so it is [name of multimethod] [dispatch value] [vector of args] [body]
06:31	bartj	antares_, thank you very much!
06:31	antares_	bartj: no problem
07:22	gtuckerkellogg	i just upgraded to 1.4, and now clojure-jack-in fails :(
07:23	gtuckerkellogg	anyone else seen this: "error in process filter: slime-require: Assertion failed: (keywordp module)"
07:23	bhenry	gtuckerkellogg: did you also upgrade lein-swank?
07:24	gtuckerkellogg	hmm
07:25	gtuckerkellogg	bhenry, you mean swank-clojure?
07:26	bhenry	gtuckerkellogg: yes that's exactly what i mean, sorry
07:31	gtuckerkellogg	i seem to be using lein-swank 1.4.4, but lein 1.7.1
07:31	antares_	gtuckerkellogg: I have lein-swank 1.4.3 here and it works great with 1.3 and 1.4 codebases
07:31	antares_	I use lein2, though
07:31	antares_	for everything
07:31	gtuckerkellogg	maybe I should upgrade
07:32	gtuckerkellogg	to lein2
08:32	espeed	what's the recommended Thrift library?
08:39	dfgdfgdfg	am planning to do SICP in the next couple of months..would it be advisable to use clojure instead of scheme?
08:40	michaelr525	dfgdfgdfg: dfgdfgfhgdfgdg
08:40	dfgdfgdfg	michaelr525: I cannot decipher
08:42	antares_	dfgdfgdfg: yes
08:42	dfgdfgdfg	antares_: alright, I am going to give it a shot
08:42	antares_	dfgdfgdfg: there is nothing wrong with scheme but clojure has many nice aspects about it and some traditional Lisp baggage that was dropped (for good)
08:43	dfgdfgdfg	antares_: cool, I might even be able to do something with it at work :)
08:45	antares_	dfgdfgdfg: right :)
09:15	samrat	ok, so i've downloaded this repo https://bitbucket.org/drcabana/euler but i've no idea about how to try out the programs
09:16	samrat	also, i already have lein installed
09:16	samrat	can anyone help me
09:18	antares_	project.clj has a comment that says there are unit tests
09:18	antares_	so, lein test
09:20	michaelr525	samrat: you can 'lein repl' and then '(load "file.clj")' and then you can run any of the functions from that file
09:21	samrat	michaelr525: thanks, i'll try it
10:02	tenso	Hi, this gives me an error in slime / swank:
10:02	tenso	(do (println "LOG: Computing...")
10:02	tenso	(+ 1 1))
10:02	tenso	sry
10:03	tenso	it makes slime-repl print "; Evaluation aborted."
10:04	Vinzent	tenso, that's all? No buffer with stacktrace?
10:09	tenso	Huh, the error disappeared after I restarted Emacs
10:10	xeqi	I've had that occasionally, when I restart swank it disappears
10:10	Vinzent	you probably sent something BAD before :)
10:10	tenso	weird, it might be I still had a stacktrace open in the background
10:29	jhowarth	Is there a keybind in emacs paredit mode for swapping a s-expression's surrounding character? e.g. change ( to [?
10:33	AimHere	Unlikely, since paredit is really for all lisps, and users of not-Clojure lisps have no need of brackets that aren't your traditional rounded parentheses
10:33	AimHere	It's the sort of thing you'd write your own binding for if you had a pressing need for it
10:37	jhowarth	AimHere:
10:37	jhowarth	Thanks
10:43	y3di	getting swank-clojure on windows is feeling impossible, sigh
10:43	Scorchin	What are the best "introduction to clojure" lightning talks (10-15 min) out there? Bonus points if you can provide a link to view/download a video.
10:48	nonrecursive	Scorchin: this is a good talk but it's an hour and ten minutesL http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
10:48	Scorchin	nonrecursive: cool, thanks!
10:49	nonrecursive	np
10:49	nonrecursive	Just put my first noir site on heroku :) :)
10:57	jhowarth	grats!
10:57	jhowarth	Hoping I can do the same this weekend :D
10:58	Frozenlo`	Why on Heroku VS your own machine?
10:59	jhowarth	I actually was more hoping to get my first noir site done this weekend. Hadn't thought about hosting.
10:59	jhowarth	heroku is easier initially to get setup
11:36	bartj	,(+ 18.99 1.90)
11:36	clojurebot	20.889999999999997
11:37	bartj	why is the above result not simply 20.89
11:37	bartj	how can I get clojure to output: 20.89 ?
11:37	AimHere	Because you're using floating point numbers, which are necessarily inaccurate
11:38	AimHere	,(+ 1899/100 19/10)
11:38	clojurebot	2089/100
11:38	AimHere	You could try rounding the numbers somehow
11:38	zomg	wut, does 1/2 to mean 0.5 work?
11:38	zomg	Neat
11:39	AimHere	Well clojure does support rationals
11:39	AimHere	bartj, if you want it as a String, eventually, you could use format
11:39	AimHere	,(format "%.2f" (+ 18.99 1.90))
11:39	clojurebot	"20.89"
11:39	zomg	AimHere: well a lot of languages do but first time I see that syntax for it :)
11:42	bartj	, (+ (Double/parseDouble "18.99") (Double/parseDouble "1.90"))
11:42	clojurebot	20.889999999999997
11:42	bartj	I tried using double instead of float but, still the precision does not seem enough
11:42	gfredericks	,(let [third (double 1/3)] (+ third third third))
11:42	clojurebot	1.0
11:42	gfredericks	^ why does that happen?
11:43	gfredericks	bartj: if you don't like floating point spookiness, use rationals
11:43	gfredericks	it's not too hard to write an exact function that outputs a rational in decimal format to any precision you like
11:44	AimHere	Trouble is, you see, bartj, floating point numbers are always going to have artifacts of that nature. You could write a dinky little function to round the function to the nth significant figure, if there isn't one pinched from Java in Math/foo or whatever
11:48	bartj	AimHere, gfredericks thanks!
11:49	gfredericks	,(first (drop-while #(= 1.0 (apply + (repeat % (double (/ 1 %))))) (drop 2 (range))))
11:49	clojurebot	6
11:49	gfredericks	,(let [x 1/6] (+ x x x x x x))
11:49	clojurebot	1N
11:50	gfredericks	,(let [x (double 1/6)] (+ x x x x x x))
11:50	clojurebot	1.0000000000000002
11:50	gfredericks	I still don't understand why 1/3 and 1/5 escape
11:51	kaoD	gfredericks, what do you mean escape?
11:52	gfredericks	kaoD: why is (+ 1/3 1/3 1/3) equal to 1.0 in floating point addition?
11:52	gfredericks	(double 1/3) must be rounded either up or down
11:52	gfredericks	so it stands to reason that the sum should be either greater or less than 1.0
11:53	gfredericks	it's as if there's some sort of trivial exception logic built in to the floating point ALU
11:53	mmarczyk	,(+ 0.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333333 0.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333 0.33333333333333333333333333333333333333333333)
11:53	clojurebot	1.0
11:54	gfredericks	or else the software is silently rounding things that look really close to other things
11:54	gfredericks	but that's disturbing as well
11:56	gfredericks	ruby has the same threshold (6 breaks, 3 and 5 don't)
11:56	gfredericks	but stranger, the result for 6 it still prints as "1.0" despite reporting that it doesn't equal 1.0
11:56	mmarczyk	huh?
11:57	kaoD	gfredericks, I guess rounding is right there
11:57	mmarczyk	irb says 0.333... + 0.333... + 0.333... == 1.0
11:57	gfredericks	x=1.0/6;y=x+x+x+x+x+x;[y.to_s,y==1.0]
11:57	mmarczyk	oh, for 6
11:57	bartj	gfredericks, you are very curious
11:57	kaoD	,(float 1/3)
11:57	clojurebot	0.33333334
11:57	mmarczyk	well, nothing suspect about this
11:57	kaoD	,(* 3 0.33333334)
11:57	clojurebot	1.0000000199999999
11:58	mmarczyk	an extra digit of precision appears "to the left", so some precision might be lost "to the right"
11:58	gfredericks	mmarczyk: about what?
11:58	kaoD	,(float (* 3 0.33333334))
11:58	clojurebot	1.0
11:58	kaoD	see?
11:58	kaoD	it's just lucky about the rounding error
11:58	gfredericks	mmarczyk: what extra digit of precision?
11:59	mmarczyk	gfredericks: just before the decimal point in our representation of choice
11:59	gfredericks	101 vs 110 both have 3 digits
11:59	gfredericks	whence the difference between 5 and 6?
11:59	mmarczyk	what kaoD said
12:00	kaoD	floating point representation is quite different from binary
12:00	gfredericks	well they're inverted so 101 vs 110 doesn't apply I guess
12:00	kaoD	see IEEE754
12:00	gfredericks	kaoD: I'm familiar with it
12:00	gfredericks	kaoD: (double 1/3) must be either slightly less or greater than the ideal 1/3, right?
12:00	mmarczyk	you could draw diagrams of ieee 754 doubles and do the calculations by hand to check :-)
12:01	kaoD	let's see
12:01	kaoD	,(double 1/3)
12:01	clojurebot	0.3333333333333333
12:01	kaoD	,(* 3 (double 1/3))
12:01	clojurebot	1.0
12:01	kaoD	you don't see the rounding error really
12:01	kaoD	you can see it in float (using double)
12:01	kaoD	but double is the max representation
12:01	mmarczyk	that doesn't mean that when you add three of them you won't get 1.0
12:01	gfredericks	why not?
12:02	gfredericks	oh hmmm maybe I can imagine
12:02	mmarczyk	since the "ideal" result of adding three copies of the double closest to 1/3 might turn out to be the double closest to 1.0
12:02	mmarczyk	that is, 1.0
12:02	gfredericks	so perhaps it is larger by a slight amount but that amount gets lopped off?
12:02	kaoD	gfredericks, that's it
12:02	gfredericks	okay, I can buy that
12:02	kaoD	I insist: it's easier to se in float because you can use double to see the actual rounding error
12:02	kaoD	but it happens in double too
12:03	mmarczyk	I mean, might turn out to be closest to the double closets to 1.0 :-P
12:03	kaoD	and not only that, most FPUs have extra bits of precision
12:03	mmarczyk	closest
12:03	gfredericks	,(first (drop-while #(= 1.0 (apply + (repeat % (float (/ 1 %))))) (drop 2 (range))))
12:03	clojurebot	3
12:03	kaoD	and once that bit's trimmed, there's an extra rounding error there too
12:03	kaoD	(which luckily turns 1.3*3 into 1.0)
12:04	gfredericks	,(take 10 (remove #(= 1.0 (apply + (repeat % (float (/ 1 %))))) (drop 2 (range))))
12:04	clojurebot	(3 5 6 7 9 ...)
12:04	kaoD	in fact, think about the internal representation
12:04	kaoD	the implied 1 bit
12:04	kaoD	and a lot of zeroes
12:04	kaoD	(in the mantissa, of course)
12:04	gfredericks	of course
12:04	kaoD	if, after rounding, you lose all the ones, it will be rounded to 1.0
12:05	gfredericks	so for 1/6, too much error is accumulated
12:05	kaoD	no
12:05	kaoD	the error is at the end
12:05	kaoD	once the floating point value is truncated
12:05	kaoD	as I said, most FPUs have extra bits
12:06	kaoD	and it might be truncated only at the end
12:06	y3di	hm, i can't seem to find clojure-mode in the package list for emacs, does that mean i might already have it installed
12:06	kaoD	y3di, nope, that means you oughta add marmalade to your package list
12:07	kaoD	see the slime-clojure (or swank-clojure, not sure) README.md at their GitHub repo
12:07	kaoD	gotta go, cya!
12:09	rlb	...and with x86 you those extra bits can be confusing if you forget they're there. gcc has some options to control their use.
12:10	y3di	i followed a tutorial, and this is in my init.el file: (add-to-list 'load-path "~/.emacs.d/")
12:10	y3di	(require 'clojure-mode)
12:10	y3di	i assume this may mean i already have clojure-mode?
12:11	y3di	and i installed swank-clojure through lein
12:11	y3di	so i think i should be good to go
12:13	y3di	hm but doing m-x swank/slime shows no match
12:13	y3di	m-x clojure-jack-in works however
12:17	Vinzent	y3di, well you also need slime, slime-repl and swank-clojure in your emacs
12:20	y3di	hm, I installed swank-clojure through lein
12:20	y3di	im having trouble figuring out how ti install slime/slime-repl/swank-clojure
12:20	y3di	reading the swank readme, it says to get marmalade
13:08	SrPx	how can I see a list of variables on local namespace?
13:19	jhowarth	y3di: I recently setup slime so I might be able to help. Did you end up upgrading to emacs 24?
13:24	kaoD	y3di, as I said, you've got to add the Marmalade package repositories
13:24	kaoD	see the README.md of related projects at GitHub, it's there somewhere
13:25	kaoD	you might need Emacs snapshot, if you're not using it already
13:25	kaoD	and make sure you just add clojure-mode and paredit
13:25	kaoD	don't install anything else, clojure-mode takes care of SLIME for you
13:25	kaoD	(just invoke clojure-jack-in and it'll download and install everything)
13:26	kaoD	and don't even try clojure starter kit, it didn't work very well for me
14:01	Rakin05	hi guys. i'm a vimmer at heart and found my love for clojure. i downloaded VimClojure and installed it. now i have the question if there is any syntaxchecker for clojure that can work with syntastic?
14:36	y3di	kaoD, thanks, imma pm you
14:45	kaoD	y3di, answered your pm, not sure if you've read it
14:58	Scorchin	what's the easiest way to convert a ByteArrayInputStream into clojure string?
14:58	Scorchin	*into a clojure string
14:59	S11001001	,(doc slurp)
14:59	clojurebot	"([f & opts]); Opens a reader on f and reads all its contents, returning a string. See clojure.java.io/reader for a complete list of supported arguments."
14:59	S11001001	^^ Scorchin
15:01	Scorchin	S11001001: thanks
15:04	shawnlewis	Is there a way to specify contrib.datalog as a dependency in leiningen, given that contrib is gone and datalog didn't move?
15:04	shawnlewis	(with clojure 1.3)
15:04	S11001001	no; put it in your own source under a different namespace, or offer to maintain it
15:05	shawnlewis	S11001001: word, thanks
15:06	S11001001	you could complain to jstraszheim about it, but I'm not sure that will work
15:08	shawnlewis	S11001001: well… no complaint really. I was just wondering if I was right that its gone away.
15:12	jicksta	Can anyone explain why doing (take 5 (cycle (range 6)) in the REPL would hang?
15:13	raek	jicksta: the repl waits for one more closing parenthesis
15:14	jicksta	Haha, a much stupider problem that I expected. I was getting problems with the (cycle (range 6)) outputting an infinite sequence just before this so I thought it was the same problem. Thanks :)
15:22	Rakin05	is there anything like "~ compile" from sbt/scala in leiningen?
15:24	S11001001	Rakin05: no; compilation doesn't take long, and doesn't really help you code anyway
15:25	Rakin05	S11001001: what about live error checking? is there anything?
15:25	S11001001	Rakin05: also, in clj-land, we code by installing new source into a running program, not compiler loops
15:25	S11001001	Rakin05: I make edits and press C-c C-l to load my source changes into the running program
15:26	Rakin05	S11001001: You use Emacs?
15:26	S11001001	yes
15:26	S11001001	for scala too
15:27	Rakin05	S11001001: tried emacs...my pinky still hurts
15:27	S11001001	swap your caps lock and control keys
15:27	S11001001	or just replace caps lock, who needs that
15:27	S11001001	I guess there is also a vimclojure thing if you're into that, but I don't care about vim usage
15:28	S11001001	and some IDE things, but I don't care about those either
15:28	Rakin05	S11001001: does'nt that mean that i write Uppercase and Lowercase randomly?
15:28	S11001001	uh, what
15:28	S11001001	I am fairly sure they all provide live loading into a running program
15:28	S11001001	so, I replaced caps lock with control
15:28	S11001001	when I hold down caps lock, it just does what ctrl does
15:29	S11001001	even the vim people I know do this
15:29	rlb	(and it's much better)
15:29	Rakin05	Ohhh...okay...i understand. you mean via system settings
15:30	bartj	hello, was the "run/test" task added to leningen after version 1.1 ?
15:30	bartj	i can't seem to find them in version 1.1
15:30	S11001001	1.1?!?!
15:32	bartj	yes :)
15:32	S11001001	bartj: can you not upgrade for some reason?
15:34	S11001001	Rakin05: you may like to peruse my intro to clojure for scalawags at https://bazaar.launchpad.net/~scompall/+junk/clojure-stuff/view/head:/src/com/nocandysw/cloj_dummy/scala.clj ; instructions for cloning at https://code.launchpad.net/~scompall/+junk/clojure-stuff
15:34	S11001001	in progress :)
15:35	SrPx	How do you guys organize your project? For example, in C++ it would be .cpp files for class implementation, .h files for header implementation, with the old OO design of classes and methods...
15:35	SrPx	How are clojure projects organized?
15:35	Rakin05	S11001001: The idea with Caps Lock Ctrl switching is great. thanks for that hint
15:36	uvtc	SrPx, `lein new` gets you off to a good start.
15:36	uvtc	SrPx, The newest version will also create a "doc" dir for you and start you off with, I think, an "intro.md" file.
15:37	S11001001	I assume due to github bias?
15:37	SrPx	lein new,? let me see
15:38	uvtc	S11001001, may as well settle on a standard, IMO. .md files in a "doc" directory seems to work fine.
15:38	uvtc	Which brings me to...
15:38	S11001001	hmm.
15:39	uvtc	I've been working some more on my project to centralize project docs. I added a way to create examples for a given project, similar to how there's examples at clojuredocs.
15:39	uvtc	The project is called "The Alcove" and it's at http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/alcove/index.html
15:40	uvtc	I'll announce it on the ML, but thought I'd post here first, and maybe get some feedback and also suggestions on projects to add.
15:40	uvtc	It works now for projects without a "doc" directory,
15:40	uvtc	and also even for projects without a README.md file.
15:40	bartj	SrPx, https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md
15:42	jhowarth	Does Korma guard against sql injection?
15:44	uvtc	S11001001, regarding creating docs for a project, I don't think it's necessarily a github bias, though github does use markdown all over the place. But so do sites like reddit and various blog commenting systems. And marginalia uses it too. And it's the nicest of the bunch (of markup formats that I've used). And pretty much everyone already knows it or can learn the basics in a few minutes.
15:45	S11001001	alright, good
15:46	uvtc	What other projects should I add to the alcove? For what projects do you think others might be interested in adding examples?
15:49	S11001001	uvtc: slingshot, tools.macro, and algo.monads are good example fodder
15:51	uvtc	S11001001: Some of those are contrib. I think contrib docs/examples are at clojuredocs, correct?
15:51	wingy	how is closjurescript doing in async programming?
15:51	S11001001	I don't know
15:52	uvtc	S11001001, Looks like they are. For example, monads: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.monads
15:52	S11001001	that would be ancient history
15:53	S11001001	your chance to grab onto the new hotness while clojuredocs is stuck with the old and busted
15:54	uvtc	S11001001, added slingshot. Thanks.
15:55	uvtc	S11001001, I actually emailed clojuredocs to see about having the alcove hosted there. Have not heard back yet.
15:55	uvtc	S11001001, I mean, Zachary.
15:56	SrPx	seriously what is that
15:56	SrPx	o.o
15:56	SrPx	what do you use instead of classes, just this?
15:57	S11001001	SrPx: that what?
16:01	SrPx	lein
16:01	S11001001	lein is a build tool
16:01	S11001001	it knows how to create project trees and set up a REPL with your code and libraries you're using
16:02	S11001001	if you mean organization at the source level, clojure programs are organized mostly as functions in namespaces
16:12	technomancy	rlb: did you say you're working on getting emacs 24 into Debian?
16:28	bartj	is the error: "Exception in thread "main" java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: defrecord in this context" because of an older clojure version ?
16:30	S11001001	Yes
16:31	S11001001	still wondering why you're stuck with lein 1.1
16:32	bartj	S11001001, I've upgraded
16:32	bartj	Leiningen 2.0.0-preview6 on Java 1.6.0_22 Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM
16:32	S11001001	ok, so your clojure version in project.clj...
16:38	clj_newb_024587	I have a clojure web app currently setup using ring, compojure, friend, clojurescript. Now, I want to add ssl support to it. What is the easiest way to do this?
16:39	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Usually it's easiest to proxy from nginx or something similar.
16:39	clj_newb_024587	I am using ubuntu 12.04. I have no exprience setting up ssl, though I am familiar with crypto. Which one do I have the smallest chance of fucking up?
16:39	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: The Ring Jetty adapter does support SSL, but it's often useful to separate it out into a proxy.
16:40	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: nginx SSL is fairly straightforward.
16:40	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: this is very low bandwidth, i.e. I have a dual 8GB machine, and there's be a max of 3 concurrent users at any time.
16:40	clj_newb_024587	So I can set this all up using just ring-jetty, without nginx?
16:41	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: It's often useful to proxy a web server through a proxy nginx as a matter of course. That way you can bind nginx to port 80 as root, but have your web app run as an unpriviledged user.
16:41	clj_newb_024587	right now, I have an iptables rule forwarding port 80 to port 8080
16:42	clj_newb_024587	but it sounds like I should learn about ngninx
16:43	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: I think nginx would be my choice, whether I was writing a web app in Clojure or Ruby or something else.
16:43	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: can you recommend something better than http://nginx.org/en/docs/http/configuring_https_servers.html ?
16:44	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Let me see if I can find something...
16:45	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: one more thing; how do I get a signed ssl certificate?
16:45	clj_newb_024587	do I just go and throw my wallet at godaddy ?
16:45	arrdem	clj_newb_024587: that'll work.... but I would look around some first
16:46	arrdem	godaddy is not what you would call cheap.
16:46	clj_newb_024587	arrdem: what would you use?
16:46	arrdem	clj_newb_024587: honestly? no idea. I have never worked with SSL/HTTPS certs. I've just had sub-optiomal experiences with GDDY
16:49	clj_newb_024587	http://emspace.com.au/article/installing-ssl-ubuntu-nginx damn this is compliated
16:49	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Try looking at this for examples of proxying: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Nginx/ReverseProxy
16:50	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: It's actually not that complex… You just need to dump one file in a directory, and then run one command, if memory serves.
16:50	clj_newb_024587	it's like NP-complete; an expoenntial amount of work for a short solution
16:57	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: This file should be all you need to proxy (HTTP at least): https://gist.github.com/2984900
16:57	clj_newb_024587	intersting you merged in proxy.conf
16:57	clj_newb_024587	(I was just working through the tutorial)
16:58	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: You just dump that in /etc/nginx/available, and sym-link ot to /etc/nginx/enabled and then reload
16:58	clj_newb_024587	so I have this weird situation right now, where (1) ssh-ed into my server, "lynx localhost:80" works (it gets me localhost:8080's content); however, from my laptop, going to remote-addr:80 ... it hangs
16:58	weavejester	For SSL, add another server to listen on 443
16:59	clj_newb_024587	crap ; I think I just nuked my ssh conections
17:00	clj_newb_024587	okay; my current problems = firewall problem; not nginx problem
17:00	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: thanks for help
17:00	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: np
17:01	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: one more dumb question; I acutally don't need to change anythign on the ring/compojre/clojure side right? i.e. I can just redirect 443 to port 8080, and not modify my clojure code, and everything will wor as is, since nginx handles everything?
17:02	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Right
17:03	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: If you wanted to work with client SSL certificates, you'd have to have Jetty handle the SSL, but client SSL certs are rarely used
17:03	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Once nginx is setup, you can use any back end web server and not have to worry about SSL anymore
17:03	clj_newb_024587	I like this separation of concerns.
17:04	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Another benefit is that you can configure nginx to wait if the web app is down, so you can restart your app with new code, and users wouldn't see any downtime - their connections would just be delayed for a few seconds while the app restarts.
17:05	clj_newb_024587	weavejester: oh boy, I'm not sure if that is possible with jvm start up times
17:07	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: The JVM only takes a few seconds to boot, right?
17:07	weavejester	clj_newb_024587: Alternatively, you could have two servers, and restart each separately, so you always have one server up.
17:11	bartj	in clojure.test is there a diff b/w error and failure ?
17:13	cky	bartj: Yes. A failure means your code has a bug. An error means some unexpected error occurred, which means your code may or may not be buggy.
17:13	xeqi	did it throw an exception or fail an (is ..)
17:14	bartj	i purposefully changed an expected test-case which it showed as "failure"
17:14	clj_newb_09824	weavejester: okay, after firewall fixing, port 443 forwarding works now
17:14	clj_newb_09824	so correct me if i"mwrong all I need now is to generate the fiels cert.pem and cert.key
17:14	bartj	xeqi, failure
17:15	bartj	is it possible to write a multimethod for this scenario:
17:15	bartj	input is a string
17:16	weavejester	clj_newb_09824: I can never remember the exact steps, but essentially a cert is a public key plus metadata about the site (domain name, owner, etc.). You need to generate the key-pair, generate the cert, then upload the cert to a cert authority to sign it.
17:16	bartj	if input contains the string "abc" return 1, if input contains the string "xyz" return 2, input is "pqr" return 3
17:16	weavejester	clj_newb_09824: Then nginx needs to have a file with the signed cert, and the private key.
17:16	bartj	i think it is not possible because the dispatch value has to be a constant
17:19	Raynes	mmarczyk: The problem we were seeing in refheap was that mongo-session had a transitive dependency on an ancient version of the java mongo driver. Updating it fixed that issue.
17:20	Raynes	bartj: That would require predicate dispatch which Clojure's multimethods do not support.
17:26	Raynes	mmarczyk: Also, this is ridiculously slow.
17:26	Raynes	:(
17:26	Raynes	20 seconds to highlight a 655 line java file.
17:27	bartj	Raynes, I meant something like this: http://pastie.org/4144823
17:28	bartj	do you think that implementation is wrong, for the problem I posted above?
17:29	Raynes	bartj: That looks about right. (nth foo 1) is just (second foo) though.
17:29	Raynes	&(nth [1 2 3] 1)
17:29	Raynes	Damn bot.
17:29	bartj	but, you said it wasn't possible ?
17:29	bartj	so I was wondering...
17:30	Raynes	I thought you were asking for something much more general.
17:30	Raynes	It sounded like you wanted to execute a different function for each method implementation until one matched.
17:46	clj_newb_09824	hmm
17:46	clj_newb_09824	where can I get my *.csr file signed?
17:49	rlb	technomancy: yes, should be soonish (next few days I hope).
17:50	cky	clj_newb_09824: Any certificate authority will do that for you for some $$$.
18:00	technomancy	rlb: godspeed =)
18:01	rlb	thx -- nearly finished; the dfsg split and debian "multiple flavor" infrastructure just takes some time.
18:11	hcliff	hey, anyone know how to bring up the chrome debugger from the clojurescript reply? (js* "debugger") isn't working
18:13	brehaut	hcliff: are you wanting to just make it appear, or to break at a certain point?
18:28	jlewis	do the runtime characteristics of assocEx differ from assoc in IPersistentHashMap?
18:33	gfredericks	I was wondering what assocEx was the other day
18:33	gfredericks	is that assoc where you know the key to be already present?
18:33	jlewis	well, i think what it does is throw an exception immediately if the key already exists
18:33	jlewis	but... if that's the case, what does assoc do when the key already exists?
18:36	jlewis	oh, i see
18:36	jlewis	assoc replaces the value
18:36	jlewis	assocEx blows up
19:11	ibdknox	dnolen: have you run into this showing up with master: clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap.create.call(null, b)
19:11	ibdknox	dnolen: it's appearing in cljs.core.js->clj and blowing up
19:34	iwillig	does anyone know if i can call a compojure application with a ring request ?
19:35	weavejester	iwillig: Yes; Compojure is built on top of Ring.
19:35	iwillig	cool
19:35	weavejester	iwillig: Compojure's effectively a routing library for Ring
19:36	weavejester	Almost every function in Compojure returns a Ring handler
19:36	iwillig	so if i have an compojure app... I should be able to call (app (request :get "/"))
19:36	mmarczyk	ibdknox: do you have an example of code where this happens?
19:36	weavejester	iwillig: Right
19:36	iwillig	where request is from request ring-mock
19:36	iwillig	cool weavejester thanks
19:36	ibdknox	mmarczyk: it's in cljs.core
19:37	weavejester	iwillig: A compojure app = a ring handler
19:37	mmarczyk	ibdknox: I mean, a call to js->clj which is guaranteed to blow up
19:37	mmarczyk	I've never seen this happen
19:37	iwillig	lovely thank weavejester
19:38	ibdknox	mmarczyk: here's what is in my output: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3304
19:38	ibdknox	mmarczyk: any call to js->clj will trigger that path
19:39	mmarczyk	whoa
19:39	iwillig	weavejester: when i try (app (request :get "/"))
19:39	iwillig	i keep on getting an key must be an integer error
19:39	ibdknox	mmarczyk: yeah, I have no idea what's going on
19:39	ibdknox	mmarczyk: makes no sense to me
19:40	weavejester	iwillig: It sounds like there's a problem in your app
19:40	iwillig	okay
19:40	ibdknox	mmarczyk: this started happening after I picked up the analyzer split changes
19:40	ibdknox	mmarczyk: I was a little behind though, so it could be anything since then
19:40	iwillig	shoot silly error sorry to bug you
19:44	gfredericks	there is no cljs.core/format?
19:44	gfredericks	I guess because it'd have to be implemented from scratch instead of deferring to jvm?
19:45	ibdknox	gfredericks: correct
19:45	gfredericks	is that a wanted feature?
19:46	dnolen	ibdknox: I just looked at my output, I don't see this. Did you try cleaning everything?
19:46	ibdknox	dnolen: yeah
19:46	ibdknox	dnolen: I'll recheckout
19:46	ibdknox	gfredericks: I'd love it :D
19:46	gfredericks	is there a jira ticket for it?
19:46	dnolen	gfredericks: no
19:46	gfredericks	dnolen: shall I?
19:46	dnolen	gfredericks: please do.
19:46	gfredericks	or are there design questions?
19:46	mmarczyk	ibdknox: yeah, I don't have this in my compiled output either
19:46	gfredericks	on it
19:47	ibdknox	dnolen: mmarczyk: I'm on 1.5, not sure if that might make a difference
19:47	mmarczyk	ibdknox: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3305
19:48	dnolen	ibdknox: that looks like map destructuring is completely broken.
19:48	dnolen	ibdknox: hmm ... that might, on 1.4 here. are you using 1.5 specific things?
19:48	ibdknox	yeah
19:49	mmarczyk	oh yeah
19:49	mmarczyk	replacing clojure.jar in lib with 1.5.0-alpha1 breaks things for me
19:49	mmarczyk	but
19:49	mmarczyk	not in the same way :-P
19:49	ibdknox	lol
19:50	ibdknox	I'm using clojure master
19:51	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah destructuring macro changed.
19:51	gfredericks	cljs.core/format sounds like a good target for the macro-and-function pattern
19:51	dnolen	ibdknox: inline clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/create reference in Clojure HEAD
19:51	dnolen	ibdknox: which of course does not exist in CLJS.
19:51	ibdknox	dnolen: right
19:52	mmarczyk	hah
19:52	dnolen	this a pretty argument for continuing with static fields pattern even though not necessary for JS target ...
19:53	ibdknox	dnolen: suggestion? If necessary I can likely recreate my changes on 1.4 instead. If there's a straightforward path to a fix, I can work on that instead though.
19:54	mmarczyk	this is also possibly an argument in favour of bbloom 's host-specific-macro-based approach to map creation, although here I guess it wouldn't help (since any macros imported from clojure.core would still have been compiled to use clojure.core's helpers)
19:54	dnolen	mmarczyk: ibdknox: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-325
19:54	dnolen	ibdknox: seems like a simple patch.
19:54	dnolen	mmarczyk: how was the 1.5 breakage you were seeing different from ibdknox's?
19:55	mmarczyk	dnolen: Reflection warning, cljs/analyzer.clj:234 - call to create can't be resolved.
19:55	mmarczyk	dnolen: Reflection warning, cljs/compiler.clj:500 - call to create can't be resolved.
19:55	mmarczyk	dnolen: and loads more with different line numbers
19:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: compiled output looked ok at first (cursory) glance
19:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: oh right ...
19:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: that's a Java class reference.
19:56	mmarczyk	yeah
19:56	mmarczyk	freaked me out though
19:56	mmarczyk	until I looked at the output :-P
19:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: we probably need to move destructure into core.clj macros file.
19:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: ...and possibly revisit :properties destructuring? :-)
19:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: wouldn't that entail moving let, loop, fn, defn, defmacro (... ?) into cljs also?
19:59	mmarczyk	not that I necessarily see a problem with that
19:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: ah ... yeah since they will be calling the wrong destructure.
20:00	mmarczyk	also, with cljs-specific macros c.l.PHM/create wouldn't be needed
20:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah
20:02	mmarczyk	at some point those macros may simply need to be imported -- certainly if cljs were to become the Clojure compiler (w/ a JVM backend), possibly if non-JVM cross-host issues or something else of importance required cljs-specific changes
20:04	dnolen	mmarczyk: I don't think we need to move that many macros. only let and loop far as I can tell.
20:09	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, it does look that way
20:18	mmarczyk	was there a ticket for 93c795fe10ee5c92a36b6ec6373b3c80a31135c4 (in Clojure)?
20:18	mmarczyk	I'd like to read the rationale
20:22	technomancy	rlb: yeah, I don't envy anyone who has to get in the middle of the dfsg and the gfdl.
20:22	technomancy	I'd imagine it's something like http://wondermark.com/657/
20:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: hmm I vaguely recall something
20:27	mmarczyk	dnolen: ?
20:27	gfredericks	it looks like the example test sort of uses it as a way to provide default values?
20:27	SrPx	is there any way to save REPL state?
20:27	dnolen	mmarczyk: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-763
20:28	mmarczyk	dnolen: thanks!
20:29	mmarczyk	now this really makes me see bbloom's emitter idea in a new light
20:30	bbloom	mmarczyk: :-)
20:30	mmarczyk	expanding to (unchecked-create-map ...) w/ unchecked-create-map inlined on the JVM would save as some hassle
20:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: :-)
20:30	mmarczyk	bbloom: thanks for the extensive reply, by the way, I'll be answering soon
20:30	bbloom	what did i miss?
20:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: I do think I came across in a more negative way than I aimed for -- I just think macro-based constant handling should happen no sooner than generic factories are in place
20:31	mmarczyk	bbloom: cljs breaks with Clojure 1.5 because of a change to clojure.core/destructure
20:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: which now calls clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap/create directly
20:32	bbloom	mmarczyk: ah. yes, need a generic factory function for it to call directly?
20:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: ah, also, set is comparable to vec, not vector... hash-set is the analogue of hash-map
20:32	mmarczyk	bbloom: right
20:33	bbloom	mmarczyk: yeah, in that patch, i used set*
20:33	mmarczyk	set* ?
20:33	bbloom	mmarczyk: yeah, didn't know what else to call it to differentiate the same was as vec vs vector
20:34	mmarczyk	bbloom: ah, right
20:34	bbloom	mmarczyk: because you need the vector-version of set to work well with a macro otherwise you need to break down the form to get the tems
20:34	bbloom	and the form might just be a symbol! which is no good
20:34	bbloom	tems -> items
20:35	bbloom	simply (defn set* [& items] (set items))
20:35	bbloom	and then you can define a set* macro
20:35	bbloom	probably needs a better name :-P
20:35	bbloom	i guess could use hash-set directly
20:37	mmarczyk	create-$foo ?
20:38	mmarczyk	and unchecked-create-foo for places where the standard ctor / factory objects to some kind of errors (like duplicate keys in sets/maps)
20:39	mmarczyk	bbloom: incidentally, that PHSet/fromArray thing could be a separate patch -- should be a 100% clear gain right now, I think
20:39	mmarczyk	imo, at any rate
20:39	bbloom	mmarczyk: ok ill look at that in a sec
20:39	mmarczyk	cool
20:54	bbloom	mmarczyk: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3306 what do you think? that's just the fromArray bit
20:55	bbloom	seems like a win to me :-)
20:56	mmarczyk	bbloom: hah! cool :-)
20:56	bbloom	ignore that -equiv thing on string
20:56	bbloom	didn't mean to have that in there :-P
21:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: so I have a working version of cljs with destructure, let and loop in cljs.core; tests pass
21:00	dnolen	mmarczyk: great make a ticket and a patch and I'll take a look.
21:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: k, just a sec
21:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: er I mean attach patch to existing ticket :)
21:01	bbloom	mmarczyk: dnolen: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-326
21:01	SrPx	Okay after playing with windows command prompt I really need an editor for the REPL
21:01	SrPx	are you guys all using emacs?
21:02	leo2007	it is the only sensible option.
21:02	bbloom	mmarczyk: you mean let and loop implemented as macros? or just namespaced? or what?
21:02	mmarczyk	bbloom: I mean copy & paste + adjustments to make them work again (because some things they use are on the :refer-clojure :exclude list)
21:03	mmarczyk	bbloom: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-325
21:03	mmarczyk	bbloom: part of cljs's struggle for independence ;-)
21:03	bbloom	mmarczyk: yup :-) hence why i keep adding missing bits and pieces from clj proper heh
21:03	mmarczyk	right
21:03	mmarczyk	SrPx: that's one good choice
21:03	bbloom	mmarczyk: one small step at a time towards the canonical CinC ;-)
21:04	mmarczyk	I don't know of another one
21:04	mmarczyk	bbloom: totally! :-)
21:04	SrPx	mmarczyk: I can't install it u.u
21:05	mmarczyk	(actually I do like my Vim, used it to write thousands of lines of Scheme, but Paredit put me under a spell)
21:05	mmarczyk	SrPx: what OS?
21:05	SrPx	xp
21:05	bbloom	i'm still wed to vim… haven't tried the vimparedit thing yet
21:06	mmarczyk	bbloom: don't try the Emacs version if you want to stay faithful
21:06	SrPx	mmarczyk: is it bad?
21:07	mmarczyk	(actually I haven't tried Vim's paredit impls, but I'm told they don't implement the full range of functionality -- and I think I use most of what's available)
21:07	SrPx	oh nvm
21:07	bbloom	mmarczyk: i figure i need to try emacs&slime at some point but the last time i tried i wanted to cry b/c my vim muscle memory is very very deep. also i do a lot of different languages in any given coding session, so i just need my vim bindings and no vim-emulation mode will ever cut it
21:07	SrPx	anyway
21:08	mmarczyk	SrPx: hm, I'm not sure I can be much help except to say I have run Emacs on XP with no problems
21:08	SrPx	I've cloned slime, swank clojure, clojure mode... I have slime working... no idea what to do with that code, though
21:08	mmarczyk	SrPx: slime on the other hand... would you be willing to try cygwin?
21:09	SrPx	why not?
21:09	mmarczyk	bbloom: I know what you mean, Vim is absolutely the best editor
21:10	SrPx	I'm under an impression that vim doesn't matter that much for lisp
21:10	bbloom	minus vimscript… cringe
21:10	mmarczyk	bbloom: supposedly evil (latest vim emulator for emacs) is very good -- I must give it a try, but I'll be really surprised if it solves the problem
21:10	SrPx	All your code is small s-expressions, right?
21:10	mmarczyk	ah, vimscript doesn't come into it for me
21:10	mmarczyk	I said "editor" :-)
21:10	bbloom	heh
21:10	mmarczyk	so the Emacs text editing experience is somewhat inferior imo
21:10	mmarczyk	in general
21:10	bbloom	i don't know of any hardcore vim guys who have tried evil and stuck
21:10	bbloom	and i know a few who tried hard
21:11	bbloom	but it was a while ago
21:11	mmarczyk	certain modes offer so much on top of the basics though
21:11	bbloom	maybe i'll try it sometime
21:11	SrPx	but mmarczyk does it matter that much for clojure?
21:11	mmarczyk	plus there are fantastic emacs "apps" -- org mode etc.
21:11	mmarczyk	magit
21:12	SrPx	)=
21:12	mmarczyk	SrPx: as mentioned above, I've written thousands of lines of scheme in Vim and I loved that experience
21:12	mmarczyk	I switched to Emacs for a number of reasons
21:13	mmarczyk	but for lisp editing paredit made the most difference
21:13	mmarczyk	plus the fact that I simply came to prefer a workflow where I have hundreds of buffers in a single editor session :-P
21:13	mmarczyk	a server running in the background, clients -- X and terminal -- coming and going...
21:13	mmarczyk	ah, the Emacs life
21:14	mmarczyk	anyway. there are new addons for Vim which introduce stuff like text objects useful in lisp, some subset of paredit functionality etc.
21:15	mmarczyk	it's well worth a try
21:15	bbloom	i use the shit out of text objects in vim
21:15	gfredericks	mmarczyk: I work with a bunch of vimmy folk and they're always closing vim and CDing somewhere and opening another file in a new vim session...........it pains me to watch it
21:15	bbloom	dap baby dap all the way
21:15	mmarczyk	gfredericks: yeah :-)
21:16	bbloom	gfredericks: why is that painful? i don't do that when working on a project, but on a server editing configs? i do that non stop
21:16	mmarczyk	gfredericks: I used to open loads of files in Vim too -- with tabs, NERDtree -- but it never felt as natural as it does in Emadcs
21:16	mmarczyk	Emacs.
21:16	gfredericks	bbloom: because they do it when working on a project
21:16	bbloom	heh
21:16	gfredericks	mmarczyk: yeah I was using nerdtree during my last few months of vim
21:16	bbloom	luckily vim starts fast :-)
21:17	mmarczyk	SrPx: but if you want slime, I think cygwin might help
21:17	mmarczyk	gfredericks: well, I actually still use Vim a fair bit -- I'd really love it for Evil to be as good as it's made out to be
21:18	bbloom	i've even got one of those kenisis concave keyboards with the modifiers on the thumbs… people assume i'm an emacs guy :-P
21:18	mmarczyk	I was planning to give it a spin come end of June, so I guess I'll find out soon :-P
21:19	mmarczyk	bbloom: oh cool, always wanted to touch one of those things
21:19	bbloom	mmarczyk: took about 1 week to get back up to speed a few years ago
21:19	mmarczyk	I don't believe they're stocked by any brick & mortar 'round here :-(
21:19	bbloom	mmarczyk: love this dopey thing
21:20	mmarczyk	:-)
21:20	bbloom	yeah, i ordered online
21:20	mmarczyk	I think it'd be slightly dangerous in my current situation
21:20	SrPx	no idea how to use it sigh
21:22	mmarczyk	moving around with a laptop quite a lot, I mean
21:23	mmarczyk	the switch from a MS keyboard to the laptop keyboard was already painful, if the kinesis thing is anywhere near as good as it looks ... :-P
21:23	mmarczyk	SrPx: cygwin?
21:24	bbloom	cringe @ cygwin
21:25	Hodapp	cygwin helps keep my sanity on my Windows box at work
21:26	SrPx	õo
21:26	S11001001	truth
21:28	gfredericks	mmarczyk: I never even considered being proficient at both editors simultaneously
21:28	gfredericks	that sounds like a recipe for confusion and frustration
21:28	gfredericks	ditto for qwerty and dvorak
21:29	y3di	have you guys tried out haskell? and if so, why do you like clojure better?
21:30	bbloom	gfredericks: probably pretty easily overcome. i used to think the same thing when i started doing a few different languages for a few different projects at the same time or in the same file. HOW DO I KEEP ALL THESE ESCAPE SEQUENCES RIGHT!?! but eventually you just get good at it
21:31	mmarczyk	y3di: I have, I love it
21:31	mmarczyk	y3di: as for the why question, there are two answers
21:33	S11001001	y3di: who said I like clojure better? :?
21:33	mmarczyk	the first is that I like the Lisp style of programming best, I find Clojure's design particularly elegant etc. -- could go on
21:33	mmarczyk	the second is Cabal
21:34	mmarczyk	w/o the second answer I think this would be a pretty close call, I absolutely love doing stuff in Haskell when I'm not fighting the packaging facility
21:35	mmarczyk	there's hsenv now and the Yesod thing (cabal-meta?) which I haven't tried yet, so things are getting better
21:38	SrPx	What is cabal?
21:39	mmarczyk	the blog post on cabal-meta is dated April 5, 2012 and it includes the sentence (describing the pre-cabal-meta state of affairs) "Even with all these tools, one day I found myself completely incapable of installng Yesod from source."
21:40	mmarczyk	I still think Haskell is a marvellous language and an overall glorious achievement, but argh
21:40	mmarczyk	SrPx: Haskell package manager
21:40	mmarczyk	SrPx: well, build tool
21:41	S11001001	sort of both
21:41	mmarczyk	that's actually an acronym
21:41	S11001001	fetches deps anyway
21:41	mmarczyk	http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Cabal
21:42	mmarczyk	with certain recently developed utilities it can be used sort of like lein
21:43	mmarczyk	but getting the correct versions of deps resolved seems to be more of a problem
21:52	treehug	how would i go about using goog.dom.query in a clojurescript app? i got this far: https://gist.github.com/2985921 but i'm confused why it is not finding the right provides even though they are in the deps i listed in project.clj for cljsbuild to use
21:53	bbloom	treehug: hmm.. looks like you're getting errors in core, not your code
21:53	bbloom	i see you're using cljsbuild, have you managed to compile an empty project at all?
21:54	treehug	yes, if i leave out the deps i have listed there it compiles. even using goog.dom.* functions if i 'require them
21:54	treehug	(that is, i remove the reference to good.dom.query from mutest.cljs)
21:54	technomancy	mmarczyk: it's funny that build nightmares are also my biggest complaint with ocaml
21:54	technomancy	the general advice is "just use apt"
21:55	mmarczyk	ouch
21:56	jhowarth	Is there an equivalent in emacs for M+( that will wrap an s-exp in brackets instead?
21:56	bbloom	treehug: is that the right sep? do you want (:use [goog.dom :only [query]]))
21:57	bbloom	or (:require [goog.dom.query :as query])
21:57	bbloom	i think you're running into the export == module name issue
21:57	mmarczyk	jhowarth: there's no default binding, but the function is called paredit-wrap-square
21:58	bbloom	treehug: let me know if either of those work
21:58	jhowarth	mmarczyk: Thanks!
22:02	cgag	i'm messing with aleph and my code looks like this: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3307, but when i open up three tabs and send 3 requests, rather than all of them finishing around the same time, it looks like it's just chugging through them synchronously
22:02	rlb	technomancy: yeah, it's unfortunate, but I understand how we got here, and at the moment, it's the situation we have.
22:03	rlb	technomancy: though I was very happy when guile dropped the non-dfsg bits.
22:03	rlb	(Running candidate 24.4+1-1 build now...)
22:05	cgag	anyone know if my that code looks reasonable?
22:06	treehug	bbloom: i tried (:require [goog.dom.query :as query]) w/ (query/query …), also (:use [goog.dom.query :only [query]) w/ (query …) and (:use [goog.dom :only [query]) w/ (query …) -- basically the same error message with only the namespace text different
22:07	bbloom	treehug: what version of cljs are you using?
22:07	bbloom	treehug: or, i guess revision
22:08	ibdknox	I have very exciting news for tomorrow :)
22:09	mmarczyk	ibdknox: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-325
22:09	bbloom	treehug: are you sure you have the right namespace? i think it's good.dojo.dom.query
22:09	ibdknox	mmarczyk: ah, thank you!
22:09	bbloom	treehug: http://closure-library.googlecode.com/svn/docs/closure_third_party_closure_goog_dojo_dom_query.js.html
22:09	treehug	bbloom: interesting question… i take it that cljsbuild provided me lein-cljsbuild-compiler-0/cljs/core.cljs but i'm not sure where from
22:10	bbloom	hmm maybe there is goog.dom.query too
22:10	treehug	ok i'll try that
22:10	bbloom	is there a git repo in there? what revision is it?
22:10	mmarczyk	ibdknox: now I'm going to wonder what kind of news :-P
22:10	mmarczyk	is tomorrow many hours away in your TZ? :-)
22:11	ibdknox	I'll be releasing the playground tomorrow :)
22:11	treehug	nothing in it, i'll try a clean & deps and see where it downloads from
22:11	bbloom	ibdknox: ah, cool.
22:11	ibdknox	I suspect there will be a sudden spike in interest for "learning clojure" materials
22:11	mmarczyk	ibdknox: oh great, now you've ruined my start-of-week productivity :-D
22:12	ibdknox	haha
22:12	bbloom	ibdknox: presumably only to kickstarter backers? or more boradly?
22:12	bbloom	broadly*
22:12	ibdknox	the playground will go out to the world
22:12	mmarczyk	seriously though, can't wait to have a look :-)
22:14	gtuckerkellogg	is anyone here using clojure in with org-babel?
22:16	treehug	bbloom: looks like org/clojure/clojurescript/0.0-1236/clojurescript-0.0-1236 is downloaded by cljsbuild
22:19	treehug	i think it must be my project.clj -- even if i just have (ns mytest) and that
22:20	treehug	's all i get the same kind of error
22:20	bbloom	treehug: oh, heh, that's what i was asking about before…. like i said: you're getting errors loading stuff at the top of cljs core… you're not importing goog.string for example, but core is
22:21	pterygota	hello, anyone working with overtone in here?
22:21	treehug	bbloom: yeah sorry, i've been messing around with my project and at one point a simple empty file did compile properly…
22:22	bbloom	treehug: try to break it down to a minimal repo & the problem will hopefully become more apparent :-)
22:24	treehug	bbloom: ok https://gist.github.com/2986062 does compile simple (ns mutest) file, but uncommenting any comination of those google-closure-library deps will break it
22:25	bbloom	i don't use cljsbuild myself, so i don't know: do you need a gclosure dep? or is that implicitly provided by leon?
22:25	bbloom	lein* stupid apple auto correct
22:28	treehug	it looks like leon cljsbuild is downloading a clojurescript and a closure-library to ~/.m2/repository and then compiling a cljs.js info ./.lein-cljsbuild-compiler-0/cljs/core.js maybe my explicitly including closure-library/closure-library-thirdparty on top of the gclosure bits compiled into cljs.js conflict
22:29	bbloom	maybe. again, i don't use cljsbuild… have you tried just using query without the deps in project.clj ?
22:31	technomancy	clojurebot: leon is a good sign it's time to turn off auto-"correct"
22:31	clojurebot	c'est bon!
22:31	bbloom	leon.
22:31	xeqi	~leon
22:31	bbloom	no? :-P
22:31	clojurebot	leon is a good sign it's time to turn off auto-"correct"
22:31	technomancy	I should write a library named after Ponce de Leon just to mess with people
22:31	bbloom	heh.
22:32	bbloom	i use Textual irc which doesn't disable auto correct in it's little message box, it's pretty much the only time i ever encounter a normal cocoa text box
22:33	bbloom	chrome, terminal, and vim is pretty much the only other times i type anything :-P
22:34	SrPx	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure <- Add [lein-swank "1.4.4"] to the :plugins section of either project.clj or your user profile. <- what does this mean?
22:35	abp	ibdknox: Holding my breath. ;D
22:35	bbloom	SrPx: what does which part mean?
22:36	bbloom	SrPx: do you have a project.clj file?
22:36	SrPx	No, I don't even know what this is?
22:36	bbloom	leon, er i mean lein
22:36	pterygota	SrPx: if you create a project with lein new projectname, you should get a directory with a project.clj in it called projectname
22:36	bbloom	SrPx: it's clojure's project system https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
22:37	treehug	bbloom: no doesn't work either - i think because clojurescript doesn't use the thirdpaty closure stuff. anyway i just discovered domina uses good.dom.query and depends on a goog.jar for it and does some magic :libs ["goog/dom/query.js"] in the project.clj. i'll experiment a bit more with that
22:37	pterygota	and in project.clj there will be a plugins section
22:37	treehug	bbloom thanks for your help and ideas
22:38	SrPx	but how can I install it? I don't have any of those package manages
22:38	SrPx	managers
22:38	pterygota	just install lein by downloading it as described on that page and running it
22:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: ping
22:57	wolgo	hi
22:57	mmarczyk	dnolen: pong
22:57	dnolen	mmarczyk: see my comment on 325?
22:58	wolgo	I want to start learning clojure. Outside of writing, programs what is recommended as a decent first read for someone that has some lisp exposure and can program in other languages?
22:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: assert-args was already in cljs.core, I just moved it to the top of the file
22:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: it's only used to validate macro args, not in the expansion
22:59	scottj	wolgo: fav book of the channel is clojurebook.com
22:59	mmarczyk	expansions
22:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: oh right, gotcha.
23:00	wolgo	okay thanks
23:00	wolgo	I will be back when I have questions. You have been warned!
23:03	dnolen	mmarczyk: ibdknox: CLJS-325 resolved.
23:04	mmarczyk	great!
23:04	rlb	technomancy: probably won't upload emacs24 until at least tomorrow fwiw -- everything looks good, but I need to test the install a bit more.
23:27	technomancy	rlb: no worries; I'm on testing anyway