#clojure – 2012-06-22

2012-06-22

01:47	SrPx	Can I use a clojure program as a clojurescript program without any modification?
01:48	bbloom	SrPx: sometimes
01:48	bbloom	SrPx: clojurescript is not a strict subset of clojure
01:48	bbloom	SrPx: for example, clojurescript does not have it's own macro system, it uses clojure's
01:48	SrPx	hm
01:48	bbloom	mostly up to date: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki/Differences-from-Clojure
01:49	SrPx	good, thanks
02:37	Shambles_	What is the significance of this "core" I see appended everywhere? I originally thought it was just for things built into Clojure, but Leiningen projects create files with that suffix automatically, and I see them in some other projects.
02:38	amalloy	Shambles_: single-segment namespaces are not allowed (or, at any rate, are a very poor idea) for reasons that are somewhat complicated; "core" most of the time means "i couldn't think of a clever second segment"
02:38	borkdude	core, main, default, etc
02:38	Shambles_	amalloy: I see. That helps me understand.
02:39	amalloy	it's often the main "entry point" or exposed-api namespace of an application/library, as well
02:39	Shambles_	I would have expected something like "main".
02:39	borkdude	amalloy the directory structure <-> namespace naming, is that something dictated by clojure or leiningen?
02:40	amalloy	that implies executibility, Shambles_
02:40	amalloy	borkdude: clojure (and also java, sorta)
02:40	amalloy	(require 'x.y.z) looks on the classpath for a file named z.clj located in /x/y
02:41	Shambles_	amalloy: I see.
03:18	tsdh	Why won't the second sequence comprehension terminate in http://pastebin.com/aDHY3XEK ?
03:19	tsdh	The placement of the :while test shouldn't make a difference here, right?
03:24	hiredman	tsdh: for every x you are iterating over y and z, and y and y are infinite
03:24	hiredman	err
03:24	hiredman	y and z
03:25	tsdh	hiredman: No, (range 10) ends at 9.
03:25	hiredman	oh, right
03:26	hiredman	the it is the placement of the :while
03:27	tsdh	Yes, but it shouldn't make a difference here, does it?
03:27	hiredman	for every element of infinite sequence bound to x, create a sequence whose element is bound to y, …
03:27	hiredman	vs.
03:27	hiredman	for every element of infinite sequence bound to x, while x is less then 10, create a sequence whose element is bound to y, …
03:28	hiredman	the creates a infinite sequence of y's before the while kicks in
03:30	tsdh	Hm, well, I somehow agree. But creating an infinite seq is nothing that would block with lazyness.
03:32	tsdh	I mean, the :while/:when should be tested in every iteration anywap.
03:51	amalloy	tsdh: that :while is only tested when "choosing" a new y
03:51	amalloy	and only terminates the inner-most (immediately preceding) iteration, in this case the ys
03:52	amalloy	so xs continue to grow without bound, and zillions of ys are created, each finding that the x you started with is invalid. so that y is discarded, and a new x is tried
03:53	tsdh	amalloy: Ah, ok, that makes sense. I've thought :while would terminate the complete for.
03:53	amalloy	i've thought that too, but no
03:54	tsdh	But does that make sense? I mean, there's nothing more for can compute if any seq is exhausted.
03:54	amalloy	nonsense
03:54	wink	anyone on EC2? Could it be that I lost an Elastic IP because it wasn't associated for 24h?
03:55	amalloy	&(for [xs [[1 2 3] [] [4 5 6]], x xs] x)
03:55	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6)
03:55	tsdh	amalloy: Oh, yes, sure.
04:02	bartj	is there any way I can associate a function/protocol to a defrecord ?
04:04	tsdh	bartj: (defrecord Foo [x y] BarProtocol (bar [this] ...)) ?
04:04	tsdh	bartj: Or what do you mean with "associate"?
04:04	bartj	I mean like in Java classes/interfaces
04:05	bartj	I know that this is not a functional way to think...
04:06	bartj	I would like to write a couple of functions that work on a defrecord
04:06	tsdh	Then define a protocol with the desired signatures, and provide implementation in your (defrecord ...) form.
04:08	bartj	tsdh, I thought defrecord only allowed attributes
04:09	tsdh	No, check (this silly) example: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/defrecord#example_748
04:11	bartj	tsdh, cool, thanks!
04:11	tsdh	bartj: You're welcome. And happy "drinky-drinky" ;-)
04:12	bartj	one last thing
04:13	bartj	how is it possible for a defrecord to contain a vector of a other defrecord ?
04:14	bartj	example maybe a zoo containing multiple animals
04:14	tsdh	Sure
04:14	bartj	(defrecord Zoo [Animal])
04:14	bartj	would be like a single animal in the Zoo :)
04:15	tsdh	bartj: Only implied by the name. (->Zoo [:tiger :snake :pengin]) is a zoo with three animals (happening to be keywords)
04:17	amalloy	bartj: if you want to write a couple functions that work on a defrecord, then...write a couple functions that operate on a defrecord. there's no need to have them be a "part" of that record type with a protocol, interface, or whatever
04:18	amalloy	(defn count-animals [zoo] (count (:animals zoo)))
04:18	the-kenny	Are namespace-qualified keywords broken in ClojureScript?
04:18	the-kenny	(Those starting with :: in the code)
04:19	tsdh	amalloy, bartj: Unless you are going to have a record per species and the functions act differently depending on an animal's type.
04:19	tsdh	s/record /record type /
04:19	bartj	amalloy, ok
04:20	amalloy	shrug polymorphism is a separate concern, which you can address with multimethods or, indeed, protocols. but if he just wants some functions, that's why rich gave us defn
04:20	bartj	but, like tsdh says, the functions act differently based on the animal's type
04:21	bartj	so I thought it would be best to couple the defprotocol to the defrecord
04:24	amalloy	there's nothing wrong with that. but starting with maps and multimethods is an easier, more flexible way to get polymorphism; defrecords are often used (even by me) as just a way to pretend you're still doing OOP
04:25	bartj	ok, thank you amalloy and tsdh for your inputs, much valued
04:25	amalloy	(defn zebra [num-stripes] {:type :zebra, :stripes num-stripes}) (defmulti coolness-factor :type) (defmethod coolness-factor :zebra [zebra] (:num-stripes zebra))
07:50	clange	I'm trying to read in binary data from a file using Gloss:
07:50	clange	(def buffer (byte-array 8)) (.read (input-stream "/home/clange/workspace/first-clj/data/fid") buffer) (decode-all fid-codec buffer)
07:50	clange	The result is vastly negative, but I presume from known data, it should be around zero.
07:51	clange	How can I handle different endianness w/ Gloss (or any other means)?
07:51	cshell	you shouldn't use def there, but rather let
07:52	cshell	ie. (let [buffer (byte-array 8)] (.read ....))
07:52	cshell	doesn't the jvm handle endianness for you?
07:55	clange	Oh, I see w/ 'let' ...
07:56	clange	I wouldn't think jvm _could_ handle endianness, because I just have an array of bytes whose endianness was defined by the author of the file writing software.
07:57	clange	And now I define codec w/ gloss ... oh, just a moment! I forgot to send the codec-defining gloss line:
07:58	clange	defcodec fid-codec :int32)
07:58	clange	But how could gloos or the jvm know about the endianness of the data read?
07:58	clange	s/gloos/gloss/
07:58	cshell	My understanding is that that is a hardware thing
08:00	cshell	ah if you're using a byte array then probably not - but if you had a file of integers or strings, you wouldn't worry about endianness
08:00	clange	Right. And that's why I have to be able to change endianness in decoding data from a file, in case it was produced on a diffently endian hardware (or: "system" in general)
08:01	clange	I do have a file of bytes, where each four bytes comprise one integer ...
08:03	cshell	not sure, but i've never had to worry about byte order when reading in a file - maybe I've only worked with the same endian machines, but they've been a variety from sun, linux, ms
08:07	borkdude	what reasons do hardware designers have to choose big endian over little endian or the other way around - why not always the same?
08:11	cshell	unless those defs are outside of a function, you shouldn't be using def, use let instead or it will slow you down
08:12	borkdude	cshell a common thing that my students did when they first learned clojure
08:13	borkdude	cshell the expressions clange showed are all outside a function though
08:14	clange	Yes, they are, since I'm only testing. But they'll surely end up in functions, and then your remarks will be of great use. THX.
08:20	borkdude	more coffee!
08:22	foxdonut	borkdude: what roast? milk, sugar, or black?
08:23	foxdonut	<-- medium roast, black
08:31	borkdude	foxdonut espresso, black, a little sugar
08:35	foxdonut	borkdude: an espresso man, huh-- nice! do you use a machine, or one of those little things you put on the stovetop that makes the water shoot up through the coffee and into the receptacle?
08:37	borkdude	foxdonut I have a machine -- I use these beans btw: http://www.italybymail.com/item_list/coffee/segafreda_espresso_casa_beans.html
08:38	borkdude	foxdonut they are not as expensive here as on that website though
08:42	ro_st	sorry to interrupt an important conversation, but what's the correct way to read values out of the env?
08:42	ro_st	System.getProperty?
08:42	foxdonut	ro_st: :-)
08:43	foxdonut	borkdude: I've seen those.. are you in Italy/
08:43	ro_st	also, whoever made it so i can seamlessly read the contents of .jar files in emacs needs a -ing medal
08:43	borkdude	ro_st yes, I believe
08:43	ro_st	and some of borkdude's coffee
08:43	borkdude	for example (System/getProperty "user.dir")
08:44	borkdude	foxdonut no I'm in The Netherlands
08:45	foxdonut	borkdude: ah ok, cool
08:45	ro_st	so if i have an env var of MY_SUPER_DB_URL i can read out "MY_SUPER_DB_URL" ?
08:46	foxdonut	ro_st: is this another one of your crackhead experiments? ;)
08:47	ro_st	oh dear
08:47	borkdude	ro_st hmm good question, or was it System/getenv..
08:48	ro_st	have i already gained a reputation?
08:48	borkdude	ro_st I think I read something about getenv being deprecated, but now I'm confused
08:48	borkdude	ro_st this is why I need more coffee
08:51	foxdonut	ro_st: it's all good, I have the same reputation in other channels..
08:51	ro_st	-grin-
08:52	foxdonut	nothing wrong with trying stuff out.. that's what nice about software, you can tinker and experiment with little risk of actual physical damage..
08:52	Shambles_	Yesterday someone mentioned that it was a bad idea to have a un-dotted ... I guess it would be a class path or something (e.g. myproject.core is dotted). I've gotten curious as to why that is a bad thing.
08:52	borkdude	ro_st I think getenv is the one
08:53	borkdude	ro_st I tried this: - in bash: export FOO=123 - in lein repl: (System/getenv "FOO") ;;=> "123"
08:55	_nmmn	, (System.getenv "SHELL")
08:55	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: System.getenv, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
08:55	_nmmn	, (System/getenv "SHELL")
08:55	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.lang.RuntimePermission" "getenv.SHELL")>
08:55	_nmmn	hehe =]
08:55	borkdude	,(System/getProperty "java.version")
08:55	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied ("java.util.PropertyPermission" "java.version" "read")>
08:55	borkdude	no can do ;)
08:55	_nmmn	well it was worth a try ;]
08:57	ro_st	thanks borkdude
08:58	foxdonut	borkdude, ro_st: getenv is not deprecated, but the Javadocs say getProperty is preferred because system properties are less global, have less side effects, and less subtleties in semantics than environment variables.
08:59	borkdude	foxdonut I now read they were once deprecated, but undeprecated in Java 1.5
08:59	foxdonut	borkdude: ah ok, just to make sure we're confused!
08:59	ro_st	what should i use to read heroku env props? getenv?
08:59	borkdude	foxdonut I have gap in Java history though, last used it around 2003 or so, and I only reached back into the Java world because of Clojure
09:00	ro_st	i'm going to use getenv. to hell with caution. -grin-
09:00	borkdude	ro_st I think you should ask technomancy to make sure
09:03	foxdonut	borkdude: I see.. what were you using in between?
09:03	Shambles_	borkdude: You asked why there were variations in byte order. It's because some operations are faster with one byte order than another. For example, it's faster to do bignum operations on little-endian. It's faster to do numeric comparison and networking (IP networking uses big-endian byte order, so on big-endian hardware there's no need to swap bytes around) on big-endian.
09:03	borkdude	foxdonut Common Lisp, C# and SAS (don't ask about that last one)
09:04	foxdonut	SAS? oh.. never mind. :D
09:05	borkdude	foxdonut also a bit of playing in F#, etc
09:05	foxdonut	borkdude: I have always been in the Java world and yearning for functional programming..
09:06	borkdude	Shambles_ ah tnx for the explanation
09:06	_nmmn	haha borkdude i have similar "situation" with java, havent developed anything on it since 2004 or so
09:06	foxdonut	_nmmn: .net in the meantime?
09:08	_nmmn	nah, trying to move to erlang a bit, would like to get more time for clojure thou :/
09:10	borkdude	gotta go
09:22	Shambles_	Others have probably seen this Clojure video, but I found it entertaining: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XUWpze_A_s It might be something worth showing people who wonder "what the point" is.
09:25	Fossi	nifty
09:31	Shambles_	Fossi: The advantage granted by the ease of redefining stuff on the fly, and spawning the REPL in most IDE's, and not having to wait for a big compile phase, come through in that. I love the 'sticky' bug in the video.
09:33	Fossi	well, it's a little more than that
09:33	clgv	Shambles_: that's the lighttable birth project, so to say ;)
09:34	Fossi	i totally adore the "stop current state" key
09:34	Fossi	in your usual mutable game engine that wouldn't be possible
09:39	dgrnbrg	what is more() used for in the seq API? i understand first, next, and cons, but it seems like more == next
09:40	cshell	,(doc more)
09:40	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
09:40	dgrnbrg	it's a method on the java api
09:40	cshell	ah
09:40	dgrnbrg	since ISeq is an interface
09:40	dgrnbrg	it has 4 methods, but i don't know what more is for
09:41	cshell	is it just leveranged by next or rest?
09:41	cshell	er, leveraged even
09:41	cshell	i don't have my code up but does more take an int argument?
09:42	dgrnbrg	ah, i see--it looks like it returns empty seq instead of nil
09:42	cshell	if so, maybe it's for getting the nth next
09:44	dgrnbrg	well, i just remembered seqable
09:44	dgrnbrg	which is a much easier api
09:44	dgrnbrg	for me, at the moment :)
09:47	dnolen	dgrnbrg: cshell: more is leveraged by rest.
09:47	dgrnbrg	dnolen: what's the difference between next and rest?
09:48	dgrnbrg	they seem so similar
09:48	dnolen	dgrnbrg: next will return nil if there's nothing left, rest will return the empty list.
09:49	dgrnbrg	that seems like a trivial difference--what's the motivation for them both?
10:03	_nmmn	hm was wondering if its ok if default test suite does not pass 100%?
10:03	_nmmn	sorry wrong room :/
10:05	Shambles_	I'm watching the Light Table video and starting to wonder if this means dataflow programming will see a comeback soon.
10:06	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: it's the only way to program modern hardware, you know?
10:09	Shambles_	dgrnbrg: Well, I dunno about that. Concurrency got 'figured out' quite a while ago (just most programmers didn't get the memo), and the things that seem to work well are dataflow and message passing. At least that. Then there's the option of not using mutable data so a 'race condition' doesn't really matter. I do think it's kind of sad that Lucid just basically died out.
10:11	wastrel	what's lucid
10:12	Shambles_	wastrel: Lucid was a rather nice (i.e. readable, and fairly easy to explain/understand) dataflow programming language.
10:12	clgv	wastrel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_%28programming_language%29
10:14	wastrel	thx
10:14	wastrel	added to my to-read list
10:14	ldopa	dgrnbrg: i think next has to actually evaluate it's return value to determine if it's empty and return nil, whereas rest is fully lazy
10:15	dgrnbrg	ldopa: i see
10:16	RickInGA	,(rest [1])
10:16	clojurebot	()
10:16	dgrnbrg	,(next [1])
10:16	clojurebot	nil
10:17	RickInGA	,(if (rest [1]) 'true 'false)
10:17	clojurebot	true
10:17	RickInGA	,(if (next [1]) 'true 'false)
10:17	clojurebot	false
10:24	dnolen	dgrnbrg: ldopa: that's correct.
10:24	Shambles_	wastrel: If you're really interested you might want to download this. The physical book is nearly impossible to find now: http://plaice.web.cse.unsw.edu.au/~plaice/archive/WWW/1985/B-AP85-LucidDataflow.pdf
10:24	wastrel	im not that interested :]
10:25	wastrel	if i had infinite time ... :]
10:25	wastrel	but thanks
10:26	Shambles_	Okay.
10:26	dnolen	Shambles_: definitely worthy of more investigation. One of Alan Kay's fave langs.
10:28	ldopa	,(do (rest (repeatedly #(prn :foo))) nil)
10:28	clojurebot	:foo
10:28	ldopa	,(do (next (repeatedly #(prn :foo))) nil)
10:28	clojurebot	:foo
10:28	clojurebot	:foo
10:29	mytrile	Hey, guys. How can I make list of 1000 elements all 0, then replace 10 of them with 1 and then filter those 10 ?
10:30	gfredericks	mytrile: the way you explain it it makes no sense
10:30	Shambles_	dnolen: It's almost forgotten outside spreadsheets. It has applications in hooking up GUI components (the Cells system for Common Lisp), simulations (things like the fluid simulation in Terraria), and, in tree (no loop dependencies) arrangements, heavy automatic optimization (SAC programming language for supercomputers). Other than SAC everything is pretty 'special case' though. :/
10:30	gfredericks	1) "filter out" or "filter all but"?
10:31	gfredericks	2) if that's all you wanted to do you could just start with 990 0's or 10 1's
10:31	mytrile	gfredericks: https://gist.github.com/971051827fd54ce6248b
10:31	mytrile	I want to see what this code will look in Clojure
10:32	gfredericks	mytrile: well (repeat 1000 0) gives you 1000 0's
10:32	gfredericks	you don't normally update data structures in place though, so there's not an exact analogue in idiomatic clojure
10:33	gfredericks	but we can do this with a vector
10:33	gfredericks	,(let [idx (take 10 (repeatedly (rand-int 1000)))] idx)
10:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
10:33	gfredericks	,(let [idx (take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 1000)))] idx)
10:33	clojurebot	(548 88 866 248 802 ...)
10:33	gfredericks	so that gives us the indices
10:34	dnolen	Shambles_: I thought some of the ideas were preseved in Mozart/OZ?
10:34	gfredericks	,(let [idx (take 10 (repeatedly #(rand-int 1000))), data (vec (repeat 1000 0)), updated (reduce #(assoc %1 %2 1) data idx)] (filter #{1} updated))
10:35	clojurebot	(1 1 1 1 1 ...)
10:35	gfredericks	mytrile: ^ there you go
10:35	mytrile	gfredericks: thanks :)
10:36	gfredericks	mytrile: it uses a vector instead of a list, which is much better for random updates
10:36	mytrile	gfredericks: I've read that vectors are optimized for random access
10:37	gfredericks	random access/updates, and adding/removing from the end
10:37	Shambles_	dnolen: There's dataflow variables in it. I think Mozart/Oz is no longer maintained though.
11:10	solussd_	hmm, nailed down a weird "bug". If I call a macro (e.g. in another namespace) from within a (noir) defpage and its expansion refers to a namespace that isn't 'require'd in the current namespace (but is 'require'd in the namespace that the macro is defined in), and I'm using skip-aot: true in my project.clj, I will get a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException for functions in the macro expansion.
11:11	gfredericks	solussd_: the macroexpansion gets evaluated in the namespace that you call the macro from
11:12	gfredericks	solussd_: so that sounds like expected behavior
11:12	solussd_	gfredericks: I understand, but the macroexpansion contains the fully qualified namespace, yet the namespace doesn't get loaded. That is incorrect behavior
11:12	solussd_	plus, loading the namespace that the macro is in should load that namespaces dependencies
11:13	gfredericks	oh hm
11:13	solussd_	and it only happens in my defpage. :) everything works like a charm in my tests. :/
11:13	gfredericks	solussd_: so outside a defpage it's not an issue?
11:14	solussd_	gfredericks: afaict, yes.
11:14	solussd_	I can "fix" the problem by 'require'ing all namespaces in the macro's expansion in the namespace that the macro is being expanded in
11:15	solussd_	this is probably something I should create an example project of demonstrating
11:16	solussd_	wonder if it is a symptom of some laziness on the part of defpage's expansion(s)?
11:16	TimMc	solussd_: That would be a bug, yeah. However, there's a related known problem: Macroexpansions that use private vars in the macro's ns.
11:17	gfredericks	TimMc: that's unintentional?
11:17	solussd_	TimMc: what's wrong with that?
11:18	solussd_	does it just not work?
11:18	TimMc	Yeah, just doesn't work.
11:19	solussd_	yeah, that's unexpected
11:19	TimMc	Some other lisps handle that case properly -- I think Racket does.
11:19	gfredericks	solussd_: in the same way that calling the private var directly would not work
11:19	solussd_	well, maybe not, considering how vars are qualified in the expansion
11:19	solussd_	right
11:19	TimMc	I haven't run into this personally, but it's definitely a bug.
11:20	TimMc	Well... mis-design.
11:20	gfredericks	I've run into it a number of times
11:20	gfredericks	so I started convincing myself it must be right
11:20	solussd_	TimMc: "this" being my bug, or the private var bug?
11:22	solussd_	guess you can just intern all private symbols in your macroexpansion in your macro. :)
11:28	ivan	heh, this confused me for a minute until I remembered laziness was going on:
11:28	ivan	user=> (with-open [reader (clojure.java.io/reader "/etc/passwd")] (let [lines (line-seq reader)] lines))
11:28	ivan	IOException Stream closed java.io.BufferedReader.ensureOpen (BufferedReader.java:115)
11:29	bordatoue	is there a way to get object inputstream reader
11:29	bordatoue	clojure way
11:31	bordatoue	l
11:31	bordatoue	;ns
11:32	bordatoue	could anyone please help me with my query. I need to find out the most suitable way to get access to objectinputstream to deserialise java object or is there any other fn that does deserialisation or should i just use java API
11:34	solussd_	might take a look in the clojure.java.io namespace
11:34	bordatoue	solussd i did that
11:34	bordatoue	solussd: couldn't find anything that would deal with objectinputstream
11:35	solussd_	hmm.. guess use the java api then.. maybe wrap it all in a "with-open"
11:36	ynniv	I'm having issues with java.jdbc and catching SQLExceptions
11:37	bordatoue	solussd: there is a reader that returns bufferedreader
11:37	ynniv	transaction* claims to aid this by rethrowing RuntimeExceptions as their SQLExceptions causes, but this doesn't appear to be the reality
11:42	TimMc	solussd: "this" == private var bug
11:56	bordatoue	is there any command to load all the jar files in a directory
12:01	bordatoue	hello, how to load a set of external .jar files in clojure
12:02	dbushenko	idiomatic way is in using leiningen and adding the jars to your local maven repository
12:02	bordatoue	dbushenko: thanks, do you know anyway i coulod load it from the repl
12:03	nDuff	bordatoue: ...if you're _not_ doing it the idiomatic way... well, make sure they're in your classpath when you start the JVM. But "use leiningen" is definitely the easy solution.
12:03	bordatoue	nDuff: is it possible to dynamically load it from the repl
12:03	dbushenko	bordatoue, you can't load them from the repl if they aren't on your classpath
12:03	dbushenko	and if they are, then the task is solved
12:03	hiredman	https://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/src/clojurebot/plugin.clj
12:03	nDuff	bordatoue: pomegranate is the usual tool used for dynamic classloader updates; it doesn't just add things, it downloads them for you too.
12:03	dbushenko	the easiest way is to use leiningen for that
12:04	S11001001	bordatoue: why do you want to do it the hard way?
12:04	nDuff	bordatoue: ...I mean, you _can_ build your own classloader with the jars you want added in and attach them to the thread...
12:04	nDuff	bordatoue: ...but you're just making your life harder trying to do it that way.
12:04	bordatoue	S11001001: ah not keen on doing it in the hard way, just wanted to see clojure's capablities
12:05	nDuff	bordatoue: nod. Basically comes down to "same things you can do with the JVM directly"
12:05	bordatoue	S11001001: basically I thought i could use a repl to debug java program
12:05	S11001001	you can, that has nothing to do with adding jars w/o restart
12:05	S11001001	but if you want some craziness
12:05	S11001001	https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate
12:06	S11001001	*not for normal usage in normal programs*
12:06	nDuff	...now, if you want _fun_, you can try to make pomegranate and nREPL play well with OSGi :P
12:06	bordatoue	S11001001: well, java program i need to debug depends on these jars, so i need to get reference to these jars dynamically
12:06	S11001001	bordatoue: because the java program picks up the jars dynamically?
12:06	nDuff	bordatoue: ...err, why dynamically? Why not have them already there when you launch the JVM?
12:06	nDuff	bordatoue: ...not saying you _can't_, again, just that it's extra work.
12:07	bordatoue	okay, let me try by adding class path
12:07	hiredman	you can, in fact, use urlclassloaders to load code out of jars over http (right out of maven repos)
12:07	hiredman	if you are so inclined
12:08	bordatoue	hiredman: urlclassloader, i will take a look
12:08	hiredman	I'd suggest looking at the url I pasted
12:08	bordatoue	i can't see any url you pasted
12:09	hiredman	it was several minutes ago
12:09	bordatoue	hiredman: found it , sorry
12:12	cemerick	nDuff: snort @ "the usual tool used for dynamic classloader updates"
12:12	cemerick	I hope it's not a usual sort of thing for most people. ;-)
12:15	xeqi	I find myself dealing with it in several projects
12:15	technomancy	iiiinteresting: https://twitter.com/xpaulbettsx/status/216003572163297280
12:17	nDuff	cemerick: Heh.
12:18	nDuff	...anyone have thoughts on what would be a decent place to discuss changes in building jars with Clojure source in them to make things more OSGi-friendly? I have a fork of clojure.osgi with relevant changes at https://github.com/charles-dyfis-net/clojure.osgi/commit/c355e1f4e05147cf7f99c5579dca4e5c80bddb79, but actually _creating_ bundles that take advantage of this is thus far something only I do.
12:19	cemerick	xeqi: Gawd, I'm so sorry. :-\|
12:26	N8Dawg	hi, all. I'm a bit stuck, i'm trying to debug some non-trivial clojure code
12:26	N8Dawg	what good debuggers are there?
12:26	N8Dawg	i'm looking at swank-cdt but i can't work out how to step into anonymous functions
12:27	N8Dawg	or put breakpoints on them
12:31	jedmtnman1	if I want to return two keys from each map in a list, is there a function I should be looking at specifically at? like 'get-in' but not for nested data?
12:32	bhenry	how can i make leincljsbuild work with the latest release of clojurescript?
12:32	jedmtnman1	sorry, not two keys, but to vals by key lookup ^
12:34	xeqi	&((juxt :a :b) {:a 1 :b 2})
12:34	lazybot	⇒ [1 2]
12:36	jedmtnman1	xeqi: ty
12:37	Bronsa	,(vals {'a 1 'b 2})
12:37	clojurebot	(1 2)
12:37	xeqi	&(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :b])
12:37	lazybot	⇒ {:b 2, :a 1}
12:37	xeqi	jedmtnman1: migt be btter ^
12:37	xeqi	&(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3 :d 4} [:a :b])
12:37	lazybot	⇒ {:b 2, :a 1}
12:38	jedmtnman1	xeqi: select-keys might be what i was thinking of, but juxt might work better in this context. ty again Bronsa too
12:39	amalloy	&(map {:a 1 :b 2} [:a :b])
12:39	lazybot	⇒ (1 2)
12:39	gfredericks	amalloy: but that doesn't use juxt
12:45	gfredericks	it does have the advantage of working for more than just keywords though
12:45	amalloy	it also exercises all three of clojure's brace types
12:53	charliekilo	/join #datomic
13:05	dnolen	bhenry: bug emezeske
13:05	bhenry	dnolen: i'm bugging him on his github repo. i just am impatient.
13:06	dnolen	bhenry: did you try specifying the CLJS version explicitly in your :dependencies?
13:07	bhenry	yes. it appears there are breaking changes? i'm not really sure, but i tried both of his suggestions here with the same results: https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues/101
13:08	dnolen	bhenry: oh yeah, warning flag he was using got moves to the analyzer namespace. easy fix of course.
13:11	foxdonut	dnolen: you are currently the main developer of ClojureScript, is that correct?
13:12	dnolen	foxdonut: not the "main" developer. I do actively review/apply patches as well occasionally optimize things.
13:13	foxdonut	dnolen: I see.. so who is/are the "main" developer(s) then? RH?
13:14	dnolen	foxdonut: http://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/graphs/contributors
13:15	foxdonut	dnolen: thanks for the info, and thanks for your contributions!
13:17	dnolen	foxdonut: np
13:36	taterbase	Could someone recommend a good beginner book on clojure?
13:36	technomancy	taterbase: clojurebook.com for sure
13:36	borkdude	+1 on clojurebook.com
13:37	borkdude	I call it the Clojure book with batteries included ;-)
13:37	taterbase	"batteries included" <- that's what I like to hear, thank you :)
13:43	borkdude	cemerick can I ask a question about clojurebook.com btw?
13:45	cemerick	shoot
13:46	borkdude	what coordinate system is used for the hex grid game of life on page 144
13:54	cemerick	borkdude: it's still cartesian (you can see the [x y] coordinates being defined for each vertex)
13:55	cemerick	The only difference between a rectangular and hexagonal maze is the shape of the cells centered on the vertices
13:57	borkdude	cemerick this is about the game of life, not a maze
13:57	borkdude	cemerick I'm slightly confused, because there are several ways to do this: http://keekerdc.com/2011/03/hexagon-grids-coordinate-systems-and-distance-calculations/
13:57	borkdude	cemerick maybe you can show on that page which one is used?
13:58	cemerick	heh, I may be too — it's been about 9 months since I had that example loaded in my head :-)
14:09	borkdude	sometimes when I define a function that does something to a JFrame in Mac OSX a "clojure.main" menu item appears
14:09	borkdude	this is strange, because I haven't even called the function, just defined it
14:11	cemerick	borkdude: so, after a quick glance: the coordinate system is still just two-dimensional. Because only immediate adjacency needs to be determined (not arbitrary distance), the third dimension introduced in the link you have isn't necessary.
14:12	borkdude	cemerick yes, but even with only two dimensions you can do the numbering in different ways: straighten the axes or not
14:13	borkdude	cemerick it seems that straightening the axes is the cleaner way - but I tried both ways and tried to reproduce the examples from clojurebook, but couldn't figure it out - it might be my foolish brain
14:14	Guest98851	Hello, I have a Problem to set up Clojur eREPL on Mac OSX 10.5 I cant use arrow cursor to navigate the CLI, any pointers?
14:14	technomancy	Guest98851: need to either install rlwrap or upgrade to lein 2.x
14:14	Guest98851	I downloaded clojure 1.4 jar
14:15	Guest98851	so thats not included there , it works in windows, hm
14:15	technomancy	oh, ok. that's probably not what you want, but I can see how you would make that mistake
14:15	technomancy	best to start at http://leiningen.org
14:15	borkdude	nice to see something that works in windows but doesn't in OSX for once ;)
14:16	Guest98851	do i really need leiniging JUST to get a REPL?
14:16	ivan	no, you can use rlwrap as mentioned
14:16	technomancy	depends on whether you want a good repl or not
14:16	borkdude	Guest98851 +1 on leiningen, it is the most flexible way to get a repl running for your projects
14:16	Guest98851	how do i set up rlwrap?
14:17	ivan	rlwrap java ...
14:17	Guest98851	I dont want projects, yet just a REPLok
14:17	ivan	I'm sure all 3 package managers on OS X have it
14:17	borkdude	Guest98851 also for a standalone repl I can recommend it, do it all the time
14:17	nDuff	Guest59394: You'll shortly want that REPL to have some libraries loaded, unless you're programming in a vacuum
14:17	nDuff	Guest98851: ...so having a project defined (taking all of one leiningen command to do) is well worthwhile.
14:18	technomancy	I recommend not programming in a vacuum; it's very confined and difficult to see the keyboard
14:18	jodaro	and dusty
14:20	michaelr525	programming in a vacum can get your tits squashed
14:20	Guest98851	I just want to tinker no need for librarys
14:20	borkdude	less bit rot though
14:21	borkdude	Guest98851 take our advice, just use leiningen even for something simple like a REPL, you will be happy.
14:21	technomancy	weird dejavu from yesterday
14:21	technomancy	clojurebot: installing clojure?
14:21	clojurebot	Clojure isn't like most languages in that it doesn't need to be installed; it's just a library. Once you have a JVM, you can set up a project with something like Leiningen (http://j.mp/leiningen), which will pull Clojure in for you.
14:24	Guest98851	I wonder what I would do if I had it to setup on a machine without internet :/
14:26	michaelr525	i think you can run something like: java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main
14:26	TimMc	Guest98851: Be in pain.
14:26	TimMc	Even if you didn't have lein, you'd still have to fetch dependencies to test or run anything.
14:27	cemerick	Much all of modern computing assumes a network connection, for better or worse.
14:27	brainproxy	Guest98851: getting starte w/ lein is a no brainer, the .sh script bootstraps leiningen automatically
14:27	cemerick	bah, s/all/
14:28	michaelr525	actually i've started with just clojure.jar and was happy with it until i discovered lein later
14:28	brainproxy	Guest98851: then you just do `lein repl`, and you'll hice a nice repl to tinker around with, inc. some helpful keyboard shortcuts
14:28	brainproxy	you'll *have
14:28	Guest98851	thats what i get
14:28	Guest98851	http://pastebin.com/0jKky8Xb
14:29	etosch	Anyone have issues using recur in a cond-match clause with matchure?
14:29	Guest98851	actually I DID run the clojure REPL i just cant use arrow keys which makes it unable to use :/
14:30	Guest98851	I guess there must be something to it since the scala guys where also mumbling how painfull it is to deliver a multi OS CLI
14:31	etosch	I have a clause that structured like this: [[false true] [something-false something-true] retvaue, but in the following clause after its match I have a call to recur
14:31	borkdude	bash: command not found.. hmm
14:31	etosch	when I run just (cond-match [[false true] [false true]] 'asdf) in the repl, I get 'asdf
14:31	borkdude	Guest98851 try ./lein instead
14:32	technomancy	Guest98851: the `java` command-line launcher is a joke
14:32	technomancy	as far as I can tell, the jdk developers try to pretend unix doesn't exist
14:32	etosch	and when I remove the line from the clauses in cond-match my function compiles fine
14:32	dnolen	etosch: I think matchure may generate intermediate fns to prevent code size explosion - breaking usage of recur.
14:32	borkdude	interesting things happen when I type ". lein", my terminal even disappears :)
14:33	Guest98851	noname:Documents mich$ . /lein gives: -bash: /lein: No such file or directory
14:33	etosch	dnolen: so is it not closing over something?
14:33	borkdude	Guest98851 omit the space
14:33	Guest98851	sorry thats it
14:33	Guest98851	its working now
14:33	etosch	dnolen: The error is very weird - it's saying that I'm providing too many arguments to recur
14:34	borkdude	Guest98851 if you put the script on the PATH, you don't have to type ./lein , that is much easier
14:34	dnolen	etosch: core.match avoids this, but is very alpha status and has some issues (AOT, mostly around maps and using multiple types in the same column).
14:34	dnolen	etosch: matchure is broken, you can't use recur.
14:34	Guest98851	borkdude: yes but i dont want it on my path
14:34	dnolen	etosch: there's nothing you can do to make it work as it expected far as I know.
14:34	borkdude	Guest98851 it's up to you..
14:35	Guest98851	so now this: http://pastebin.com/MB7nTVbL
14:35	Guest98851	I am on an old mac osx 10.5...
14:35	etosch	dnolen: hrm, I'll give core.match a try
14:36	wkelly	Guest98851: export HTTP_CLIENT="curl --insecure -f -L -o"
14:36	dnolen	etosch: expect to encounter a different set of issues there (as I mentioned) ... patches welcome.
14:37	etosch	dnolen: alrighty, i shall commence with caution
14:37	Guest98851	:wkelly do I have to type this?
14:37	wkelly	Guest98851: yup! just type it in the same shell you are running lein from
14:37	wkelly	then run the command again
14:39	technomancy	next version of lein will have a better error message explaining that
14:39	technomancy	oh, never mind; you got the error message
14:40	borkdude	technomancy is this only on "older" systems?
14:40	technomancy	borkdude: yeah, ancient libopenssl
14:40	Guest98851	wkelly: tried both suggested commands : insecure and no certificate, both dont work...
14:42	Guest98851	is there a swing UI for the REPL?
14:42	Guest98851	really i just want arrow key navigation and command history, thats all...
14:42	borkdude	Guest98851 if you can paste the error msg, we can find out maybe what doesn't work
14:43	wkelly	borkdude: it is pasted
14:43	borkdude	Guest98851 I'm sorry things don't go as smooth as promised… ;-)
14:43	technomancy	you should see if you can get a newer libssl
14:43	Guest98851	np its my OS fault obviously
14:43	technomancy	I'd be nervous running something that old
14:44	borkdude	how old is old?
14:44	technomancy	but still, exporting HTTP_CLIENT should work
14:44	technomancy	2005-ish I think?
14:44	technomancy	macosecks is never EOL'd =(
14:46	Guest98851	so im using: http://incanter.org/downloads/ incanter now but is only on 1.2
14:46	Guest98851	does such a GUI REPL exist with 1.4?
14:49	Guest98851	well anyway thx for your help I can do now some basic stuff with cloure 1.2
14:50	nDuff	...err, can't you just tell leiningen to pull Incanter in for your Clojure runtime of choice?
14:50	borkdude	nDuff he went back to the past
14:51	borkdude	these people visiting here from the past and future are confusing sometimes
14:52	technomancy	nDuff: really old openssl can't bootstrap leiningen's self-install because it doesn't trust github's SSL cert =\
14:52	technomancy	and for some reason he couldn't disable curl's cert checks
14:54	nDuff	...err, isn't that curl -k?
14:54	nDuff	shrug.
14:55	technomancy	more or less
14:57	wkelly	Guest59394: can you run mkdir -p $HOME/.lein/self-installs/
14:57	wkelly	Guest59394: and then wget https://github.com/downloads/technomancy/leiningen/leiningen-2.0.0-preview6-standalone.jar --no-check-certificate -O $HOME/.lein/self-installs/leiningen-2.0.0-preview6-standalone.jar
14:57	borkdude	maybe for bootstrapping an interactive question could be put it: are you sure you want to do this?
14:57	wkelly	without the line wrap
14:57	technomancy	wkelly: wrong guest, I think
14:58	wkelly	haha
14:58	wkelly	so it is!
14:58	arrdem	good catch
14:58	technomancy	the magic of nick highlighting =)
14:58	wkelly	oh well
14:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: ping
14:58	dnolen	mmarczyk: pong
14:58	mmarczyk	dnolen: hi! so, where do you think we're at with :import ?
14:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: been a bit busy - I didn't know if you were coming up with another patch.
14:59	xeqi	borkdude: curious, what are you trying to use the hex coordinates for?
14:59	borkdude	xeqi just trying to understand the example from clojurebook
15:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure. I think the original goog.provide patch should work fine
15:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: it's also preferable that there's only one patch on the ticket. can we remove the others?
15:01	xeqi	everything is kept in rect coords, so the underlieing hex coords aren't ever used
15:01	dnolen	mmarczyk: so the working patch works at the REPL and relies on GClosure for errors?
15:01	dnolen	under compilation?
15:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: the working patch only emits goog.provide calls when compiling files
15:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: no goog.provide at the REPL
15:02	borkdude	xeqi I think a picture would clarify this all for me
15:02	dnolen	mmarczyk: k let's remove the other patches from that ticket.
15:03	xeqi	heh, wish I had a peice of graph paper
15:03	mmarczyk	dnolen: ns forms receive special handling from the repl, I believe -- in particular, goog.provide is not called
15:04	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, in this case I think the basic patch introducing :import for GClosure classes is so simple it can't be wrong
15:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: whereas I think the approach to cljs records/types should work too, but may still be refined so the implementation is prettier
15:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: hence the two patches
15:05	mmarczyk	dnolen: but sure, I can squash them, give me a minute :-)
15:07	dnolen	mmarczyk: I would prefer a single patch that handles deftype/record
15:07	borkdude	xeqi is it this system? http://keekerdc.com/2011/03/hexagon-grids-coordinate-systems-and-distance-calculations/hexgridsquiggly/
15:09	dnolen	mmarczyk: if the patch needs some refinement, then by all means refine :)
15:09	mmarczyk	dnolen: :-)
15:11	xeqi	no, not every rect coord maps to a hex coord
15:14	ynniv	wow… does map wrap any non RuntimeException in a RuntimeException?
15:18	borkdude	xeqi I see it now…
15:18	oskarth__	how do I call clojure functions from clojurescript?
15:19	dnolen	oskarth__: what do you mean?
15:19	oskarth__	dnolen: I mean using a clojure library and calling it from clojurescript, like clojure and java fns
15:20	xeqi	borkdude: heh, an I had just put together http://postimage.org/image/pqnu8vbjn/ with some random online image editor
15:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: squashed patch attached
15:21	dnolen	oskarth__: are you talking about client/server communication?
15:21	dnolen	mmarczyk: thx
15:21	borkdude	xeqi so the axes are straightened, only differently
15:21	mmarczyk	dnolen: the emitted-provides thing might be misnamed, since I'm not emitting them for ns forms (that would be useless at this time)... no idea for a better name, unfortunately
15:21	borkdude	xeqi no,nm, but I get it now
15:22	borkdude	xeqi tnx!
15:22	oskarth__	dnolen: in a way yes, but we want a certain js thing to change when a file has been updated on the filesys
15:22	dnolen	oskarth__: need more details ... what are you trying to do?
15:23	cgag	technomancy: is deployment mullet your term? that's great
15:23	oskarth__	dnolen: we do a POST which starts to generate an image in quil, but we want to watch the file-system for changes so we know when to update the image div
15:23	oskarth__	dnolen: previously we tried to do it with java threads, but the request comes back before the image is generated then
15:24	oskarth__	does that make sense?
15:25	jweiss	is there a recommended way to print readably so taht there are no embedded objects like #< clojure.lang.AFunction$1@7b3825bf> ? I know i can write a defmethod, but that will change it system-wide.
15:25	xeqi	borkdude: for extra fun, consider 1,0 as your starting rect coordinate
15:25	oskarth__	it's quite possible we don't understand how the thread is working with the web server and are thus trying to do thing in a unidiomatic way
15:26	dnolen	oskarth__: yes, depending on how robust of a solution you want - you could poll, you could use WebSockets. Perhaps GClosure browser channel, etc.
15:26	xeqi	and how that compares to 0,0
15:26	oskarth__	dnolen: right now we are using polling, thought about switching to web sockets but want to get this working ok first
15:26	borkdude	xeqi just to make sure: (hex-neighbours [0 0]) -> ([-2 0] [-2 2] [-1 -1] [-1 3] [0 0] [0 2])
15:26	dnolen	oskarth__: the problem is sounds like that the request completes, and the file is getting updated on a different thread.
15:26	oskarth__	exactly
15:27	oskarth__	so we thought of having a dir-change watcher
15:27	borkdude	xeqi probably there is just a tiny difference in rotation here
15:27	oskarth__	dnolen: does that sound like a bad idea to you?
15:27	xeqi	borkdude: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3292
15:28	xeqi	consider pulling https://github.com/clojurebook/ClojureProgramming
15:28	dnolen	oskarth__: so if you're making something simple for demo purposes you could just return something (a token) that the client can then poll for.
15:28	dnolen	oskarth__: if you're doing something fancy you'll want some kind of bidirectional channel. Lots of JS uploaders rely on Flash for this.
15:29	borkdude	xeqi ok.. tnx for your help, I'm off now
15:29	oskarth__	dnolen: hm ok, but how would the js know when the file has been created if it's started in another thread?
15:30	dnolen	oskarth__: it starts polling with the token.
15:30	oskarth__	aha I think see now
15:31	oskarth__	dnolen: thanks
15:31	dnolen	oskarth__: again not something I really recommend for anything real. If I recall correctly, Aleph has WebSocket support and integrating it with Noir / Compojure / Ring shouldn't be hard.
15:32	oskarth__	dnolen: yeah, we were thinking about doing something like aleph or netty if we were to continue working with it
15:37	Chiron_	Hi, should I do something special when importing and using a "generic" type such as com.netflix.astyanax.AstyanaxContext<Entity> ?
15:40	Chiron_	and how to import a static class defined within another class?
15:40	xeqi	Chiron_: leave the generic type signature off
15:41	xeqi	and use $ between the names
15:43	Chiron_	something like (import [com.netflix.astyanax AstyanaxContext.Builder]) ?
15:43	Chiron_	(import [com.netflix.astyanax AstyanaxContext$Builder])
15:44	xeqi	I think that'll work
15:46	xeqi	&Thread$UncaughtExceptionHandler
15:46	lazybot	⇒ java.lang.Thread$UncaughtExceptionHandler
15:56	Chiron_	How to access an Enum? NodeDiscoveryType/None ?
15:57	mattmoss	Ya.
15:57	Chiron_	are doto and -> are replaceable when working with Java objects?
15:58	mattmoss	Not entirely.
15:58	mattmoss	-> will return the last evaluation as its result
15:58	brainproxy	be wary of this mattmoss character, he's a little tricky
15:58	mattmoss	(doto (java-obj) ... ...) will return the java-obj
15:59	Chiron_	Oh
15:59	mattmoss	Otherwise, I think -> and doto are fairly similar... at least for calling a chain of java ops.
16:00	Chiron_	I c. thanks!
16:00	Chiron_	clojurebot: Haskell!
16:00	clojurebot	"you have to see features like that in the context of Haskell's community, which is something like Perl's community in the garden of Eden: detached from all shame or need to do any work." -- ayrnieu
16:00	Chiron_	wow, one word deserve two lines response
16:00	brainproxy	Chiron_: in a doto chain, any number of the steps may involve methods which don't themselves return the object that the methods are operating on
16:01	mattmoss	Ah yes, good point, bp. I had forgotten that.
16:01	brainproxy	but doto makes sure that each step along the way operates on the object you're passing in
16:02	brainproxy	-> is a way of composing functions together, where the return value of one step is an argument in the next step
16:02	brainproxy	which argument position depends on whether you use -> or ->>
16:03	Chiron_	that is imformative
16:04	Chiron_	btw, would you please explain to me clojurebot response to "haskell" ?
16:04	brainproxy	,haskell
16:04	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: haskell in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
16:04	muhoo	anyone run datomic on heroku yet?
16:04	brainproxy	,"haskell"
16:04	clojurebot	"haskell"
16:05	brainproxy	nvm, I see above, the "garden of Eden..." text
16:06	Chiron_	yes that one
16:06	hiredman	it's a quote, someone said it once
16:06	hiredman	what more is there to explain?
16:07	Chiron_	didn't understood it, don't bother :)
16:09	muhoo	hm, maybe not, looks like it'll work http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:87T33B5UsR8J:http://groups.google.com/group/datomic/browse_thread/thread/e3cea68ce2595552%2Bdatomic+heroku&hl=en&ct=clnk
16:15	dgrnbrg	hey clojurians, i'm having some fun in class loader hell. I have a groovy script that's invoked by a magic class loader, and i need to run some clojure code in that class loader too.
16:15	dgrnbrg	Also, i cannot add clojure to the claspsath at jvm startup, so i'm creating a urlclassloader and adding clojure to that as a URL resource
16:16	dgrnbrg	then, i am creating a new GroovyShell with the URLClassLoader as its class loader, and then i'm setting the clojure.lang.Compiler.LOADER as this.classLoader in the GroovyShell's string, and then i'm trying to run the clojure program
16:17	etosch	dnolen, I'm having an issue with core.match. Not sure where/how to report on JIRA
16:17	dgrnbrg	i'm having a problem where it cannot find clojure/core.clj, even though it can find clojure.lang.*
16:18	dgrnbrg	does anyone have any ideas for my class loader hell?
16:19	adu	dgrnbrg: clojure+groovy! good choices
16:20	adu	(add1 dgrnbrg)
16:23	dgrnbrg	adu: thanks :)
16:23	dgrnbrg	have you dealt with class loader hell?
16:25	adu	dgrnbrg: http://www.liferay.com/community/forums/-/message_boards/message/13323232
16:26	dgrnbrg	i am legacy
16:26	dgrnbrg	so, so legacy
16:26	dgrnbrg	i cannot control the command line
16:26	dgrnbrg	i cannot export CLASSPATH
16:26	dgrnbrg	everything has to be dynamically done
16:28	dgrnbrg	adu: do you know how I can defer resolving the clojure classes until i've had a chance to set up the runtime?
16:28	dgrnbrg	in groovy, that is
16:28	dgrnbrg	i do clojure.lang.RT.loadFile
16:28	adu	what's wrong with CLASSPATH?
16:28	dgrnbrg	but i haven't added clojure.lang.RT to the class loader yet, so i can't put it as text in the program, b/c the groovy compiler won't accept it
16:29	dgrnbrg	it's not possible to have it work in my environment :(
16:30	adu	how about System.setProperty("java.class.path", "…")?
16:31	dgrnbrg	can you do that and have the class loader work?
16:31	adu	no idea, worth a try
16:32	jweiss	dynamically loading libs doesn't work, so if it was that easily solved, it would work :)
16:32	nDuff	create a new URLClassLoader
16:32	nDuff	add URLs to the jars to it
16:32	nDuff	set as your thread context classloader
16:33	Raynes	http://github.com/flatland/classlojure
16:33	dgrnbrg	i'm trying to bootstrap clojure in a groovy environment
16:34	dgrnbrg	so i have a URLClassLoader with all the clojure jars added to it
16:34	dgrnbrg	is there some way to do something like:
16:35	dgrnbrg	Class.forName("clojure.lang.Compiler", true, urlClassLoader).LOADER.bindRoot(urlClassLoader); Class.forName("clojure.lang.RT",true,urlClassLoader).loadResourceScript("my-script")?
16:35	dgrnbrg	because Class.forName returns a Class, but I need the Compiler so that I can start my work
16:38	etosch	dnolen, I'm having an issue with core.match. Not sure where/how to report on JIRA
16:38	dnolen	etosch: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH
16:39	dnolen	etosch: what is the problem you're encountering?
16:41	etosch	dnolen, not sure how to describe it without examples. Doesn't look like the extant issues match up. Should I open a new issue and paste code?
16:42	dnolen	etosch: can you give an example first - there several different tickets about various problems - it may already exist.
16:43	etosch	dnolen: sure. I want to do this: let [x '() y '()]
16:43	etosch	\| (match [(seq x) (seq y)]
16:43	etosch	\| [([_] :seq) nil] 'a
16:43	etosch	\| [_ _] 'b))
16:43	etosch	(pasting from emacs, sorry
16:43	etosch	(let [x '() y '()]
16:43	etosch	(match [(seq x) (seq y)]
16:43	etosch	[([_] :seq) nil] 'a
16:43	etosch	[_ _] 'b))
16:43	cshell_	you can use refheap.com
16:43	dnolen	etosch: use a paste service, refheap, gist
16:44	etosch	k, gimme 5
16:44	dnolen	etosch: you're expecting 'b and getting 'a?
16:44	muhoo	somewhat OT, but why wouldn't datomic work with heroku's free postgres, only with it's $50/month postgres?
16:44	muhoo	s/it's/its/
16:48	etosch	dnolen: no, i'm getting a runtime exception
16:48	dnolen	etosch: what is it?
16:48	solussd	how can I get the pre/post conditions from a function?
16:49	etosch	dnolen: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3294 it says it can't resolved the symbol - it looks like the product of a gensym or something
16:50	etosch	dnolen, in the "want this" part i actually want x to be nonempty, but its moot currently due to it throwing an excpeiton
16:51	Chiron_	Korma creates a db object and it looks like afterwords, all other functions have access to the db object without explicitly being passed https://github.com/ibdknox/korma
16:51	Chiron_	how to achieve something like that?
16:51	technomancy	Chiron_: some would argue that's the biggest flaw of korma
16:51	Chiron_	really?
16:52	Chiron_	what would be a better approach? I'm creating something like that
16:52	Chiron_	not creating, want to create
16:53	technomancy	it's best to create your API so the base connection object or whatever is accepted as an argument to every function that needs it
16:53	dnolen	etosch: yeah that's probably a real bug, though :seq matching will probably go the way of the dinosaur ...
16:53	technomancy	then optionally create an alternate API based on that one that offers a with-* macro that performs the bindings
16:54	Chiron_	I was thinking about with-*
16:54	dnolen	etosch: feel free to make a ticket, I have no plans on addressing the ticket anytime soon too busy with other things. If you supply a patch I'll happily apply.
16:55	etosch	dnolen, okay, thanks for taking a look
16:55	akhudek	technomancy: my solution to that problem with korma was to wrap each table in (database entity conn) every time the entity is used.
16:56	akhudek	there is some syntactic sugar there so that calls look more like (select (db my-table) (where …..))
16:57	technomancy	cgag: I can't remember where I first heard the term "deployment mullet" but I <3 it
17:03	goodieboy	does anyone know what the standard response keys are for ring? Does ring only recognize :status, :body and :headers?
17:05	steveo_	I have a java library i'm interoping with that wants a uri of a resource to load, the thing I need to load is something I have in memory though, anybody know if there is a way to give a URI to a memory location or something so I don't have to spit this to a file just so it can be read again right away?
17:05	ystael	is there a 'standard' choice of idiom for (zipmap coll (map f coll)) or (into {} (map #(vector % (f %)) coll)) ?
17:06	cshell_	steveo_: no, that's a bad api - it should take an inputstream rather than a uri to avoid things like this
17:10	steveo_	damn, yeah I wish it did
17:12	S11001001	ystael: juxt
17:12	S11001001	(into {} (map (juxt identity f) coll))
17:13	technomancy	as much as I love juxt, I pine for map-keys and map-vals
17:13	S11001001	eh, map-keys is weird
17:14	llasram	maybe?: (reduce #(assoc %1 %2 (f %2)) {} coll)
17:14	llasram	No intermediate vectors!
17:14	S11001001	llasram: that's slower
17:14	technomancy	I guess keywordize-keys is nearly the only use case for map-keys
17:14	llasram	S11001001: Is it?
17:14	S11001001	llasram: into speaks transient internally, that reduce doesn't
17:14	dnolen	etosch: thx for the ticket. These will get addressed eventually - all part of a bigger project.
17:14	llasram	S11001001: Ohhh. Hmm.
17:14	llasram	S11001001: I had not considered that angle
17:15	hiredman	technomancy: I have theory about map-vals
17:15	gtrak`	ystael: mapmap?
17:15	S11001001	technomancy: anyway, map-vals wouldn't do that thing
17:15	baoist	Has anyone had an issue with VimClojure freezing after opening any ".clj" file when the setting "let vimclojure#WantNailgun = 1" is on?
17:16	S11001001	technomancy: unless you're thinking of a different map-vals than me :)
17:16	cshell_	How do i define a protocol method named 'find' so that it won't conflict with clojure.core/find?
17:16	S11001001	oh, well you said keywordize-keys, so we meant the same one
17:16	etosch	dnolen, cool; i have some suspicions about where the problem might be and i really really really want to use pattern matching for a particular problem, so i'm going to hack at it for a little bit
17:16	hiredman	the need for maps vals arise when you combine two things in to a single thing, those two things are 1. a collection of things 2. an index of those things for fast/easy retrival
17:17	technomancy	S11001001: I'm thinking of the one in my head that works like the above =)
17:17	gtrak`	hiredman: is that bad?
17:17	hiredman	if you combine those two things in to a single thing, and decide you want to map over the first thing, you think you need map-vals
17:17	S11001001	I wish keys and vals would yield in different orders occasionally, just to mess with people who assume they have same order
17:17	dnolen	etosch: cool! core.match is not the most straightforward Clojure library out there ... would like be more explicit how about we implemented the paper one day.
17:17	S11001001	there is no implementation reason to do this...
17:18	S11001001	wait, false
17:18	hiredman	if you pull the two things a part you get a map for and index, and a vector
17:18	hiredman	and we have mapv
17:18	technomancy	hiredman: so zipmap is simple because it's explicitly about combining those two things and nothing else?
17:18	dnolen	etosch: feel free to ask any questions you may have about the implementation.
17:19	hiredman	zipmap is about building a map out of two seqs
17:19	cgag	baoist: i haven't, it's either worked or warned me when the nailgun server isn't started
17:19	etosch	dnolen, what's the lay of the land on pattern matching in clojure? Are the major libs just core.match and matchure?
17:19	dnolen	etosch: yes.
17:20	cgag	though occationally i'll try to enter an expression in the repl and it'll insert thousands of spaces
17:20	baoist	cgag: hrmm, out of curiosity what version of vimclojure are you using? I tried with 2.3.3 and 2.3.0
17:20	hiredman	technomancy: so really you should either a. decide you can take the performance/ease hit and search a linear structure (which is easy to map over) or 2. keep two structures a map of keys indices and a vector of values
17:20	hiredman	keys => indices
17:20	dnolen	etosch: core.match implements a clever algorithm from an OCaml paper - but it's also extensible a la Racket. it also handles the recur case.
17:20	gtrak`	hiredman: that's kind of a pain. Why not just call the complection a proper abstraction?
17:21	cgag	baoist: I don't know actually, I set it up according to this https://github.com/daveray/vimclojure-easy, modified to fit in with vim janus
17:21	cgag	baoist: looking in the lib folder, it looks like it's 2.3.0
17:21	baoist	cgag: thanks, I think I'll look into this.
17:22	hiredman	technomancy: I say this in large part as an extended explanation of why I don't think map-vals will ever land in core
17:24	technomancy	hiredman: yeah, it seems consistent with some of the other design decisions when you put it that way
17:25	hiredman	it is also my experience people tend to be wayyyyyyy biased towards {:id1 {:data v2} :id2 {:data v2}} over #{{:id :id1 :data v1} {:id :id2 :data v2}} (or same as a seq)
17:25	hiredman	where the second form is more extensible, and self descriptive
17:26	technomancy	it's definitely underrated, especially for large data sets
17:27	ipostelnik	hiredman, your 2 examples are not the same
17:27	ipostelnik	{:id1 example1} is very fast
17:27	gtrak`	this is somewhat similar to the k-v store vs RDB argument, yes?
17:27	hiredman	thats my point
17:28	hiredman	people are heavily biased towards fast indexed access, over ease of extensibility and self description
17:29	hiredman	without consciously weighing the tradeoffs
17:29	ipostelnik	when I'd wanted map-vals, it was always in scenarios where index access was the 90% case and map-vals was the 10%
17:47	Chiron_	what is the best way to represent a couple of fixed values? (like enum)
17:49	hiredman	keywords
17:49	shawnlewis	Hello. What's an idiomatic way to model a many to many relationship between "classes" in clojure? In say, java, class C1 could have a list of references to class C2. In clojure you might have a vector of maps that represent C1, each map having a vector of C2s as one of its attributes. But in order to update a C2, since you can't update it in place, you'd need to update each C1 that refers to it. I could use a vector of refs from C1s to
17:49	shawnlewis	Hope that makes some semblance of sense
17:50	Chiron_	I need to mimic something like this: http://netflix.github.com/astyanax/javadoc/com/netflix/astyanax/connectionpool/NodeDiscoveryType.html
17:50	hiredman	shawnlewis: pretend you had the whole thing in a sql db and do it that way
17:51	hiredman	Chiron_: keywords
17:53	shawnlewis	hiredman: so use unique identifiers as references yeah?
17:53	hiredman	shawnlewis: dunno, I didn't really read what you said, but it's a good rule of thumb
17:54	hiredman	clojure is about manipulating data, so is sql
17:54	hiredman	java is not
17:59	gtrak`	sounds like what shawnlewis is talking about is a tradeoff like hiredman described?
17:59	gtrak`	Chiron_: use keywords and maybe make a set for validation?
18:00	gtrak`	like (def valid-keys #{:k1 :k2 :k3}), I did something like that recently
18:01	Chiron_	gtrak`: indeed
18:02	dnolen	Chiron_: namespaced keywords work pretty well for that too I think.
18:03	gtrak`	if you want usage to be statically verifiable I suppose you could use a macro keyword-factory
18:03	Chiron_	dnolen: I'm creating an open source project, do u suggest to use qualified keywords?
18:03	gtrak`	my last comment <- probably a terrible idea
18:05	dnolen	Chiron_: if you want something like an enum and other people use them - yes.
18:05	dnolen	"other people will use them"
18:07	Chiron_	so is it recommended to use only qualified keywords when creating open source projects (sorry still learning) ?
18:08	gtrak`	Chiron_: I've seen examples of regular keywords, I don't think it's that big a deal
18:08	technomancy	Chiron_: depends on who is allowed to put things into the map
18:10	Chiron_	means?
18:10	clojurebot	forget Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this is Clarity of mind means clarity of passion, too; this
18:11	Chiron_	clojurebot: what is your uptime?
18:11	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:11	S11001001	Chiron_: I use qualified to mark implementation details and things that have to mix with other things (e.g. global-hierarchy entries), unqualified otherwise
18:11	gtrak`	technomancy: do you mean allowed as in you can't from the outside or it's just slightly less convenient?
18:11	dnolen	mmarczyk: ping
18:11	mmarczyk	dnolen: pong
18:12	hiredman	clojurebot's uptime is not so good recently (more restarts) I moved it to a t1.micro with some other things, and the oom killer keeps killing stuff
18:12	dnolen	mmarczyk: looking at the patch, so you don't clear the emitted-provides, problematic for watch build processes I'd think.
18:12	technomancy	gtrak`: parse error
18:13	nathansobo	i was hoping someone could help me with a conceptual question about programming with values... how large a system should i attempt to model as a value. like say i was building a text editor. would i model the state of the screen, the cursor, what's selected, etc all as a single value?
18:13	mmarczyk	dnolen: well, it's only bound for the extent of compile-file, same like position, data-readers, ana/cljs-ns* etc.
18:13	mmarczyk	same as
18:13	Chiron_	clojurebot: are you divorced?
18:13	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
18:14	gtrak`	technomancy: you said 'allowed', that implies that something disallows it, but I can do this:
18:14	gtrak`	&(into {} [[:clojure.core/a-keyword :val]])
18:14	lazybot	⇒ {:clojure.core/a-keyword :val}
18:14	dnolen	mmarczyk: oops sorry missed that bit of the patch.
18:14	gtrak`	just want to make sure I'm not missing something
18:15	technomancy	gtrak`: I'm talking about maps used as inputs
18:16	gtrak`	oh, I think I get it, thanks
18:16	gtrak`	old code won't know about your namespace
18:17	gtrak`	api consumers can read your docs and figure it out
18:18	dnolen	mmarczyk: so I am somewhat concerned about the behavior of (:import goog.numbers.Long) and the lack of (:import [goog.numbers Long]), what if I make a deftype called Long and I want to import it as well?
18:18	mmarczyk	dnolen: that wouldn't work in Clojure either
18:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: also, how would [goog.numbers Long] help?
18:19	hiredman	and you should use parens for grouping inside :import
18:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: also, I love prefix lists, wouldn't mind implementing them for all libspecs :-)
18:19	hiredman	(makes it indent correctly)
18:20	gtrak`	nathansobo: if you scroll up a bit in the log we were just talking about nestedness
18:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: haven't done so here for the sake of consistency
18:20	dnolen	mmarczyk: you are explicit that you want to use the name. but perhaps I misunderstood how it works in Clojure JVM, does import mean you don't have to qualify?
18:20	technomancy	nathansobo: it's a hard problem; I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer
18:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: it does
18:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: if you import a class, you can omit the package throughout the namespace
18:21	mmarczyk	dnolen: and there is no :import :as :-(
18:21	dnolen	mmarczyk: huh ... so it's not possible to import two classes of the same name?
18:21	hiredman	it maps the symbol to the class object
18:21	hiredman	,(intern ns 'Foo java.lang.String)
18:21	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
18:22	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
18:22	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
18:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: no, one needs to be referred to using the fully-qualified name
18:22	gtrak`	nathansobo: I'm currently staring at examples in our own code of vectors of atoms... so it can be done that way... but it seems painful
18:22	hiredman	import works by assocating the symbol of the classname with the class object in the namespace's map
18:23	hiredman	so you certainly can do that, it just isn't support by ns or import
18:23	mmarczyk	right
18:23	dnolen	mmarczyk: hmm ... I think we should start a thread on the dev ML ...
18:24	dnolen	mmarczyk: I'm already way more excited about :refer in :require than I am about :use in CLJS. so perhaps another opportunity for improvement here.
18:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: :-)
18:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: one thing I wanted to do with the :import patch is tidying up parse 'ns a bit
18:25	dnolen	mmarczyk: yes it's a monster now :)
18:25	mmarczyk	dnolen: indeed. :-)
18:25	mmarczyk	dnolen: so I think I've taken a step in that direction with spec-parsers
18:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: next step would be to factor out all the local functions
18:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: speaking of which ... I should clean up emit :invoke ...
18:26	dnolen	mmarczyk: sounds good
18:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: cool
18:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: so
18:26	nathansobo	thanks guys let me catch up with that dialog
18:26	gtrak`	when folks write code the data way like '#{{:id :id1 :data v1} {:id :id2 :data v2}}' above, do they tend to model things as triples or something?
18:26	mmarczyk	dnolen: I could split out all this into a separate patch and rewrite the :import patch to build on that
18:27	mmarczyk	dnolen: or we could say that :import works pretty much as it does in Clojure, minus prefix lists which are not supported in any other libspec, and then start a clojure-dev thread about improvements :-)
18:27	dnolen	mmarczyk: not necessary. if the refactor is part of the :import patch I'm ok with that - no one else is working on the ns form far as I know.
18:27	mmarczyk	dnolen: ah, true
18:29	dnolen	mmarczyk: it could be just like Clojure, but I think better to go ahead and start the conversation while you make your desired changes to ns.
18:29	gtrak`	maybe you do it like sql with pk/fk? It sounds like an interesting thing to think about
18:29	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure, I'll go on tinkering :-)
18:29	nathansobo	gtrak`: vectors of atoms would seem to introduce coordination issues... like in hickey's talk "simplicity made easy" he says that if you have multiple variables representing a single entity, that you introduce coordination problems
18:30	gtrak`	nathansobo: yes that's a tradeoff
18:31	nathansobo	i guess if the separate variable facilitate coordination it helps
18:31	gtrak`	refs somewhat address that, but there's still an issue
18:31	nathansobo	variables*
18:31	dnolen	nathansobo: gtrak`: in putting refs types into immutable data structures seems to defeat the whole idea.
18:31	gtrak`	ya
18:31	gtrak`	I want to understand the extensible way :-)
18:32	nathansobo	one thing i'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is say you're modeling all this state as a value... and you want to capture changes to the state and say, draw them to the screen... you need some sort of abstraction for representing events
18:32	gtrak`	nathansobo: we have that already, refs, atoms and agents have watch-lists
18:33	nathansobo	like i need a succinct representation that says "this value you're observing changed in this way" so i can turn around use imperatively mess with the DOM
18:33	dnolen	nathansobo: yes, someone needs to work on that. lots of design notes and a half finished library. ClojureScript seesms like it's getting the wheels turning faster on that front.
18:33	nathansobo	okay let me take a look at watch-lists
18:34	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'm hoping to redo the CLJS-246 patch sometime this weekend too
18:34	gtrak`	nathansobo: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/add-watch
18:34	mmarczyk	dnolen: also, if nobody beats me to it, I'll be taking the "recursion in PersistentVector" ticket
18:35	dnolen	nathansobo: lots of people pondering this, add-watch is really not enough from what I can tell. kovasb, ibdknox, lynaghk and ohpauleez have various solutions which should be considered.
18:35	nathansobo	gtrak`: okay that looks like a cool way to see that the value changed, but i'm still searching for a way to model how it changed. maybe i'm thinking about this all wrong. for performance reasons i'd like to avoid treating the state of the entire display (the DOM) as a value
18:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: excellent!
18:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: the ticket description (CLJS-299) mentions earlier experiments by Laszlo -- got any links?
18:36	nathansobo	dnolen: cool. glad to know i'm not thinking along the wrong lines. any pointers to public exposition of their thoughts?
18:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: I still like to get the "satisfies? protocol carrying" in.
18:37	gtrak`	nathansobo: ah, yea.. you'd need some concept of a diff for each type of value, and you can use either time/space to implement it. Don't know if there's a generic way to do that
18:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: hmm, not handy, might want to ping on the old Laszlo thread on the ML, he seems to be around.
18:38	dnolen	nathansobo: nothing in writing from them - mostly chatting.
18:38	mmarczyk	dnolen: k
18:38	gtrak`	the smallest example I can think of, if an int changes value, I suppose you may want to kick-off a smoothly moving slider or something?
18:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, I'd like to see protocol tagging too
18:39	gtrak`	that would require the slider to have its own state, maybe a view-model
18:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: haven't figured out a clean way to do that though
18:40	nathansobo	gtrak`: yeah that makes sense... like for a given value change i guess i want the old value, the new value, and a domain-specific diff describing the nature of the change. then my view layer can perform imperative updates on the basis off the diff, referencing the old/new values as needed
18:41	aperiodic	nathansobo: lynaghk has been working along those lines with bind! & unify in the experimental branch of c2: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2/tree/undom
18:41	nathansobo	basis of, not "off"
18:41	nathansobo	aperiodic: thanks, i'll give it a look
18:42	aperiodic	nathansobo: there's a simple demo here: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2-demos/tree/master/todoMVC
18:42	gtrak`	nathansobo: if you haven't read it already maybe check out the fowler UI arch articles http://martinfowler.com/eaaDev/SupervisingPresenter.html
18:42	nathansobo	thanks guys. this is really helpful and i very much appreciate your time
18:43	aperiodic	basically, you use them to associate a hiccup-producing expression that derefs some atoms with a DOM node, and when those atoms change, bind! and unify take care of walking the DOM and updating anything that's changed
18:44	aperiodic	i don't know what performance is like with that, though
18:45	nathansobo	aperiodic: interesting. perhaps the approach could lend insights valuable in something more ad-hoc / domain-specific.
19:00	zach_	I'm having some trouble upgrading a project to clj 1.4. 1.2.1 seems to be sticking around in the lib/ of the lein project.
19:00	technomancy	zach_: upgrading to lein 2 might help
19:00	technomancy	1.x has some corner cases where plugins can interfere
19:00	zach_	technomancy: That's fine, I have lein2 installed. Is there any barrier to "switching"?
19:01	technomancy	clojurebot: upgrading to leiningen 2?
19:01	clojurebot	upgrading to leiningen 2 is easy with this handy upgrade guide: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Upgrading
19:01	technomancy	zach_: hopefully not ^^
19:01	zach_	technomancy: Thanks!
19:01	technomancy	np
19:02	jodaro	man i love handy upgrade guides
19:02	jlewis	hi! can I use IPersistentMap from java, reasonably? if not, can you recommend another more java-friendly implementation of persistent maps?
19:07	lucian	jlewis: there was a project for making clojure's data structures available to java more nicely
19:08	S11001001	jlewis: check functionaljava; ipm not so great for java as it is unparameterized
19:12	zach_	technomancy: So, I installed lein-precate, which basically told me to add a min-lein-version, which I did. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that lein2 deps is rectifying the problem. Am I missing something? (I'm sure I am!)
19:14	technomancy	zach_: are you sure it's actually a problem?
19:14	zach_	technomancy: Unfortunately, yeah -- trying to play around with datomic, which seems to be dependent on 1.4.0
19:15	zach_	I'll start a new project with lein2 from the ground up and see if the problem seems to persist
19:15	technomancy	and you've confirmed that having old jars in the lib/ directory breaks datomic?
19:16	zach_	technomancy: Every classpathed repl I run is running clj 1.2.1, and datomic just kinda isn't working, which a couple mailing list threads I've found seems to be a symptom of not running 1.4
19:17	technomancy	oh, ok; in that case use `lein deps :tree` to see what's pulling in 1.2
19:22	zach_	technomancy: Sorry it took so long. It was a really dumb problem. I apparently had a lein project that contained a bunch of projects... ugh
19:22	zach_	technomancy: Got rid of that, solved the 1.2.1 problem, but noir is still pulling 1.3
19:23	technomancy	you can add :exclusions; see `lein help sample`
19:24	zach_	technomancy: Yep, found it. Thank you for your help.
19:24	technomancy	sure
19:24	technomancy	should probably add a faq entry for that
19:25	technomancy	oh, it's there already; oops
19:26	zach_	technomancy: I just need to learn to read faqs first :). Thanks for your patience anyways.
21:55	mindbender1	hi All
21:57	adu	hi
22:21	calvados	is there a way to log stdout and stderr with log4j in clojure ? i just searched some about it and found a solution for java but wondering if there is a way in clojure http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1200175/log4j-redirect-stdout-to-dailyrollingfileappender
22:25	xeqi	calvados: looks like tools.logging has a function to do it
22:32	calvados	xeqi: hm let me check it thanks
22:34	calvados	oh neat yes it looks like.
22:34	calvados	thanks again
22:39	Shambles_	Yesterday when I asked about the reason for .core to be appended someone said it was because having a undotted path was a bad idea. Would someone explain why, please?
22:55	uvtc	Shambles_, hi. I think it's just to avoid name collisions. If you've got a project named "foo-bar", you start off by putting your code into foo_bar/core.clj, and those functions are in the foo-bar.core namespace.
22:56	uvtc	If you then want to add more namespaces (namespacen?) to your project, they can go under the top-level name as well (foo-bar.util, foo-bar.whatever).
22:57	uvtc	When people use your project, everything lives under foo-bar (foo-bar.core, foo-bar.whatever). Nice and neat.
22:58	uvtc	In the Perl world they address the issue by making dir names the same as module names. That is, FooBar.pm (the module), and FooBar/Baz.pm (the submodule -- FooBar::Baz).
23:00	Shambles_	uvtc: So there's no 'root' namespace in a project. All of them start under the project directory name? You can't have a a -main under foo-bar? It has to be foo-bar.<something>?
23:01	xeqi	also when using aot it would create a java class in the default package, which can cause confusion
23:01	uvtc	Shambles_, I follow the example that Leiningen sets. :)
23:02	Shambles_	uvtc: Yes. Python works that way, and made sense to me. It also forced you to use namespaces (every file starts a namespace), which has turned out to be a benefit much like forcing people to indent their code properly.
23:03	Shambles_	I can't puzzle out what "aot" would be.
23:03	xeqi	ahead of time compilation
23:03	Shambles_	uvtc: I'm just trying to figure out why it 'sets that example'. I don't see any inherent problems with having things defined under the project's namespace.
23:05	cgag	Shambles_, do you mean you want your main file to to just be called foo-bar, rather than core?
23:05	mmarczyk	that happens even when not doing aot, e.g. (defn foo ...) at the REPL causes a class called user$foo to be created in the default package
23:07	mmarczyk	that's not to say that it's a good idea; putting stuff in the default package causes serious weirdness to ensue
23:16	Shambles_	cgag: Well, I suppose what I'd be used to, and expect, is to have a directory named <your project here>, with a file named <your project here>.clg and then subdirectories for the subsystems in my project under that, with matching file names. Each file having a matching namespace.
23:16	Shambles_	I'd like to know about the serious weirdness.
23:20	cgag	i think the way it works is the namespace translates to a filename, so if your namespace was just foo-bar, clojure would look for foo_bar.clj in your source directory
23:20	cgag	so i think you could do that, and have your subdirectories have the namespace subdirectory.filename
23:21	Shambles_	cgag: Yes.
23:21	Shambles_	Sorry, that was a reply to something a way back there.
23:22	mmarczyk	yeah, it should mostly work, until it breaks :-)
23:22	mmarczyk	the most seriously weird issue I personally experienced was with profiling
23:22	xeqi	is there a way to list the dynamically generated class names?
23:22	Shambles_	mmarczyk: So if I do what I just described I might see strange things in the profiler?
23:24	mmarczyk	I think the code actually worked, but I couldn't watch some methods of interest... it's a hazy memory though
23:24	mmarczyk	what is certainly out of question is Java code being able to import a class from the default package -- that is disallowed by the language spec
23:25	mmarczyk	admittedly not a big deal for Clojure code most of the time
23:28	mmarczyk	I'll also admit that I'm not sure if the profiling issue could have been solved by a knob in visualvm -- adding ".core" was easier than investigating that
23:28	Shambles_	mmarczyk: So what I described wouldn't work in Java? Java programs always have a 'extra' name in front? I hope they don't have a <extra>.<useful-name> for every sub-directory (with "extra" being the directory part, and "useful-name" being the file part).
23:29	mmarczyk	they do, actually
23:30	Shambles_	mmarczyk: Oh my... I'm going to have to work to blugeon things into a reasonable looking hierarchy then.
23:31	mmarczyk	Java classes tend to be called things like com.google.whatever.Foo or org.apache.commons.Bar
23:32	mmarczyk	Clojure projects tend to use a core.clj namespace much like Python uses __init__.py files, except you can't leave out the .core part in a :require
23:33	mmarczyk	local conventions
23:34	technomancy	.core generally stems from a lack of imagination more than anything else
23:35	gfredericks	technomancy: are you calling The Core unimaginative?
23:35	mmarczyk	arguably this lack of imagination is helpful when trying to get a rough idea of what a new project's public api looks like
23:36	Shambles_	Thanks to everyone for helping me.
23:36	technomancy	gfredericks: absolutely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Core
23:36	gfredericks	The definitive science fiction film of the 21st century?
23:37	technomancy	> Elvis Mitchell, of the New York Times, said, "The brazen silliness of The Core is becalming and inauthentic, like taking a bath in nondairy coffee creamer."
23:37	technomancy	nice metaphor
23:37	gfredericks	simile?
23:37	technomancy	oops
23:38	technomancy	"On March 30, 2009 it was reported that Dustin Hoffman was leading a campaign to get more real science into science-fiction movies." <- go Hoffman!
23:38	gfredericks	? who do you talk to about getting that done?
23:38	gfredericks	bono?
23:38	Shambles_	I can tell I'm going to have trouble getting used to Java's way of doing things. Fans of most languages would not approve of the 'extra' bit on the namespace, (com.big.non-semantic.wad.here.before.what.you.care.about) especially given the pain involved if you wanted to always use the full path (considered good practice in at least Python, since it makes it clear 'where things come from').
23:38	technomancy	gfredericks: who else?
23:39	mmarczyk	Shambles_: some people do use the Java convention, though (using an organization name or sth along these lines to prefix namespace names and no .core namespace; e.g. net.cgrand.enlive-html)
23:39	gfredericks	Shambles_: using the full path is not idiomatic clojure
23:39	technomancy	Shambles_: it's especially fun when the project transfers to a new owner and you have to update all your code that depends on it
23:39	gfredericks	(:require [com.big.non-semantic.wad.here.before.what.you.care.about :as about])
23:40	Shambles_	gfredericks: I think I'd have to do it that way for my sanity, even if people did poo-poo me. :P
23:40	cgag	gfredericks, yeah i think that's how it's usually done in python as well isn't it?
23:40	xeqi	technomancy: was sed broken?
23:40	gfredericks	cgag: I know nothing of python
23:40	gfredericks	xeqi: I was thinking the same thing
23:40	technomancy	xeqi: apparently!
23:40	mmarczyk	Shambles_: Python does use __init__.py files, so the directory structure of more complex packages is pretty much the same
23:40	gfredericks	"...two days of downtime due to a massive sed outage..."
23:42	Shambles_	cgag: You /can/ do that in Python. You can also import everything directly into your namespace, or only certain parts, so it has no prefix at all, but it's generally been found to be more readable if you type the path out, since they're short in Python, and it tends to make it clearer where everything is defined.
23:42	mmarczyk	Shambles_: importing the main namespace is shorter, but :require :as is perfectly idiomatic Clojure (I actually think :require specs w/o :as are the minority)
23:42	eggsby	mm, packages in python you just have on your $PYTHONPATH
23:43	mmarczyk	Shambles_: you can also pull in individual names or all names from a namespace into the current namespace with :require :refer or :use (same result, different syntax)
23:43	eggsby	site-packages or w/e
23:44	Shambles_	mmarczyk: The only difference between Java and Python's way of namespace handling is the 'extra' path due to every directory (in the Java way). That's the part that's giving me "heartburn of the brain" at the moment.
23:44	Shambles_	mmarczyk: Yeah, so that part is like Python.
23:48	mmarczyk	Shambles_: well what I'm saying is that any Python "package" (a collection of modules -- I realize this is an overloaded word in Python lingo) complex enough to be split into multiple files will likely have the same structure
23:48	mmarczyk	Shambles_: for example the pygments module is defined in a file called pygments/__init__.py
23:49	mmarczyk	Shambles_: with ancillary modules called pygments.foo defined in files called pygments/foo.py which live alongside it
23:50	Shambles_	mmarczyk: Right, but to refer to things I'd type "pygments.thing_I_care_about" not "pygments.__init__.thing_I_care_about".
23:51	eggsby	I'm not sure what the correlary is, you don't do that in clojure either.
23:51	mmarczyk	Shambles_: sure, and you can do that in Clojure at the cost of a few extra characters (and in fact everybody does it) -- far from a big deal
23:52	eggsby	Python just uses the file structure for its module namespacing, clojure explicitly defines it in the ns macro
23:52	Shambles_	mmarczyk: What I'm thinking about, for example, is wanting to have a "main" file with my "main" procedure to set up a program, and then say a subdirectory for the GUI stuff. Unfortunately the Java way this makes me have to type "project.main.main" and "project.gui.gui", with the stutter due to the directories forcing their way into the namespace path.
23:52	Shambles_	mmarczyk: I could work around this, except for the 'main' issue, now that I know about it. I'd probably try not to have something with the same name as the directory in subsystem.
23:53	mmarczyk	Shambles_: what main issue?
23:53	mmarczyk	Shambles_: you need to have one dot in your namespace names to be safe
23:53	Shambles_	mmarczyk: the "main.main" part instead of just "main".
23:53	eggsby	oh, rename the core part of your module 'core'
23:53	eggsby	isntead of project/gui/gui.clj use project/gui/core.clj
23:54	mmarczyk	Shambles_: so you'd call your main namespace project.main
23:54	mmarczyk	Shambles_: and you can totally call the gui namespace project.gui
23:54	Shambles_	eggsby: Yes, I was trying (and apparently failing) to get my issue across. Basically I don't like directories causing names to be inserted in the namespace path. I'm not used to that.
23:55	mmarczyk	Shambles_: just don't use "project" (with no dot) as a namespace name
23:56	Shambles_	mmarczyk: I'm aware I can call them that, but I won't want to. I don't want functions to have the same name as the directory, since it reads bizarrely. I'll do my best to 'hide' the fact that the directories are being included in the path, to avoid the stutters you'd get with a directory and function having the same name.
23:56	eggsby	Shambles_: I came from python exclusively to clj, I've enjoyed it a lot
23:56	Shambles_	mmarczyk: And yeah, I'm sure I could hide the stutter with import notations, but I'd rather not.
23:57	mmarczyk	whatever floats your boat
23:57	mmarczyk	just trying to give you all the options.
23:57	cgag	moving from python to clj feels to me the way moving from c++ to python did
23:58	Shambles_	I've found I 'need' Lisp occasionally, but rarely, which is why I'm trying to move to it from Python myself. I ended up with Racket for the programming features (I'm having issues with the I/O though), and Clojure for the fancy I/O. At least that's what I'm trying to settle on.
23:58	Raynes	Man.
23:58	Raynes	All you Python guys should do me a solid.
23:59	eggsby	Shambles_: I think that defining your namespace per file is cleaner than defining one global module/namepsace per directory w/ __init__.py
23:59	Raynes	If you want a fun little project that exercises both your Clojure and python skills, change refheap to not shell out to pygments and instead call it directly via jython.