#clojure – 2012-06-21

2012-06-21

00:40	brainproxy	anybody here using clojure to work w/ JSON-LD?
00:46	bbloom	hold on wait… i saw someone do this the other day….
00:46	bbloom	$anybody
00:46	bbloom	$anybody$
00:46	bbloom	$anyone
00:46	bbloom	$anyone$
00:46	bbloom	hm… guess not
00:47	bbloom	oh well
00:47	wmealing	LD ?
00:47	wmealing	first time ive even heard of that
00:48	brainproxy	yeah, just learned about it tonight, read an interesting paper:
00:48	wmealing	i see http://json-ld.org/
00:48	brainproxy	http://ws-rest.org/2012/proc/a4-2-lanthaler.pdf
00:48	wmealing	and it mentions "web scale"
00:48	wmealing	sets off my bullshitometer
00:48	brainproxy	heh, sure
00:48	brehaut	~anyone
00:48	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
00:49	brehaut	bbloom: ^
00:49	bbloom	damn. wrong control character
00:49	bbloom	i can never remember them all
00:49	bbloom	next time, i'll check the source rather than guess :-)
00:49	brainproxy	brehaut: well in this case the question I really want the answer to is whether there is someone in chan working w/ JSON-LD, because I'm trying to grok it and would like to bounce some ideas of someone who understands it
00:51	brainproxy	wmealing: it seems to be one of a number of attempts to extend JSON as a hypermedia type
00:51	brehaut	i think ~ is just a shorthand for addressing clojurebot in full?
00:51	brehaut	clojurebot: anyone
00:51	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
00:51	brehaut	yeah there you fo
00:51	amalloy	bbloom: it won't be in the source
00:52	bbloom	amalloy: i know not they keyword, but won't the control character be?
00:52	amalloy	oh, probably
00:52	bbloom	:-)
00:52	amalloy	$ activates lazybot, and i don't think it's in his source that way
00:52	amalloy	because he reads it in from a config file at startup
00:53	brehaut	~arrows
00:53	clojurebot	arrows is http://ro-che.info/ccc/12.html
00:53	technomancy	can we use the word "plist" to refer to [:key "value" :other-key "value2"] structures?
00:54	technomancy	or is that gauche?
00:55	brehaut	thats almost like a common lisp associative list right?
00:56	amalloy	no, i think it's a common lisp property list :P
00:56	brehaut	hah ok
00:56	technomancy	right-o
00:56	brehaut	oh i see, it has both
00:57	technomancy	I'm gonna call it a plist
00:58	amalloy	technomancy: doesn't macos have this "plist" thing that's all xml nonsense?
00:58	brehaut	a plist in mac os x can be many things
00:58	technomancy	I believe so
00:58	wmealing	bbloom, it doesn't look like it'd be too hard to hack on from clj-json
00:58	technomancy	well, xml if you're lucky
00:58	brehaut	theres at least an xml and binary repr
00:59	brehaut	it inherited that madness from next step, its effectively weird arse json
01:00	adu	technomancy: I think they have about a zillion names
01:01	adu	brehaut: Apple plist = JSON+Date+Bytes
01:02	brehaut	adu let me be more precise then, plists are to objective-c/cocoa what json is to javascript
01:02	brehaut	only weirder
01:02	adu	kinda no
01:04	adu	I think plists(text) were used at NeXT before obj-c was invented (don't quote me). ObjC could exist without plists. Apple invented the xml and binary serializations of plist much later. JSON on the other hand, was inspired by an existing language
01:06	adu	the textual form of plists is very similar to json, and I'm sure people convert to/from plists and json all the time
01:08	adu	to make a paralell to java, Info.plist=build.xml, and java and ant could exist independant of eachother
01:11	tomoj	can an analogy ever be precise?
01:11	brehaut	i had presumed that it wasnt a requirement at least
01:12	adu	sorry for nit picking
01:13	adu	ecosystems fascinate me
01:13	tomoj	imo nits being picked (with reasonable volume) on irc is generally positive, since you can just not read it if you don't care, and often someone will
01:13	brehaut	tomoj: are you comparing us to a bunch of uncivilized jungle apes?
01:15	technomancy	who's scruffy-looking?
01:15	brehaut	that would be those of us who do not have office jobs :P
01:16	adu	I have an office job & I'm scruffy-looking
01:16	tomoj	jungle apes? I don't follow
01:16	technomancy	the correct answer is "Han Solo"
01:17	brehaut	crap, so it is
01:18	adu	lol
02:26	TheBusby	any tricks to apply a type hint to "this" when doing proxy-super to avoid reflection warnings?
02:41	amalloy	TheBusby: i tried to figure it out a while ago and couldn't do it
02:43	TheBusby	amalloy: doh, thanks for the heads up!
02:55	ro_st	anyone using cljs have a solution for OAuth/OpenID in place?
03:17	ro_st	is there a channel on here for users of the google closure library?
03:20	ro_st	in compojure, is there a way to set the root route to load up a file that would be resolved by route/resources? i have a static index.html that i want to make the home page
03:21	ro_st	so "/" -> index.html
03:22	xeqi	you could stick middleware in that alters the :uri
03:24	muhoo	i'm pretty sure there's a ring middleware that checks resources/ for static files
03:26	muhoo	ro_st: compojure.route/resources ?
03:41	msappler	hey, is it a bad idea to have nested refs
03:42	madsy	msappler: Nested how?
03:44	msappler	Right now I have robots with (ref {:position :goal :meeting-point :internal-grid})
03:44	msappler	for multi-robot exploration
03:45	msappler	and for performance reasons I want to have every cell of the internal grid an ref itsself so I can traverse it faster
03:45	msappler	like caching neighbour cells
03:47	amalloy	that sounds like an optimization made with no particular evidence that it will make things faster
03:48	amalloy	make get-neighbor-cells a function, and then in the unlikely event that you find a ref dramatically speeds up your app, you can just change its implementation without affecting anything else
03:49	msappler	I know it will speed up because I did it before
03:49	msappler	10x
03:51	madsy	msappler: I didn't even know you could have refs inside refs. What would happen if you update parent and child inside the same transaction?
03:51	madsy	Sounds unsafe to me.
03:52	madsy	Clojure is smart enough to do partial updates anyhow
03:54	msappler	So I rather do {:state (ref {:position :goal :meeting}) :internal-grid (grid-with-refs-as-cells)}
04:05	ro_st	muhoo: i am using route/resources. i want to map the root route "/" to automatically load up /index.html - like Apache's default document
04:06	ro_st	xeqi thanks, i'll try that
04:32	ro_st	xeqi, muhoo: fyi: (GET "/" [] (ring.util.response/resource-response "public/index.html"))
04:44	amalloy	ro_st: https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/blob/develop/src/foreclojure/ring.clj#L33 is more general
04:44	michaelr525	hello!
04:44	amalloy	i mean, i guess that's for doing a slightly different thing. but you've only mapped / to /index.html, not also mapped /foo to /foo/index.html
04:45	amalloy	but the point is if you want to treat URL x as if it were URL y, wrap your routes with something that transforms x to y before calling the rest of your server
04:45	ro_st	that makes sense
04:47	ro_st	turns out i can restrict tomcat to /api/ within apache, which means i can serve the client side stuff 100% static
04:48	ro_st	and get all the benefits of the html5boilerplate apache config
04:48	ro_st	98/100 for pagespeed, that way!
04:51	ro_st	whole frontend for the app loads in under 100k with gzip et al. that includes webfont and a 150kb (uncompressed) js 'binary'
05:21	augustl	hi folks. I'm building a HTTP that works with JSON data, and connects to a postgres db. Currently making some attempts in rails and nodejs, but struggling with the integration testing. I.e. doing http requests and resetting the DB in between tests. Anyone know of some solutions for this for clojure and/or the JVM in general?
05:28	kjetilv	augustl: why don't you just reset the DB between tests? drop schema, then re-run table create statements
05:31	augustl	kjetilv: for some weird reason I didn't think of that. Been struggling with "DROP DATABASE" which requires all connections to be closed first. thanks :)
05:32	kjetilv	augustl: easy does it :-)
05:33	kral	hi
06:13	clojure-newcomer	hi guys… anyone had an experience putting together Facebook login integration in a clojure web app ? particularly interested in Noir
06:14	clgv	augustl: the usual approach is "to mock out" the DB, if not the DB functionality is to be tested
06:14	michaelr525	clojure-newcomer: i'm doing it right now :)
06:14	michaelr525	clojure-newcomer: using this: https://github.com/metadaddy-sfdc/facebook-template-clojure
06:14	clgv	michaelr525: which oauth lib are you using?
06:14	clojure-newcomer	michaelr525: very interesting, I'd love to hear about how you go about it
06:15	clojure-newcomer	https://github.com/cemerick/friend looks interesting
06:15	clgv	clojure-newcomer: friend is for authentication and authorization of your own webapp
06:16	michaelr525	clgv: the link i pasted is a full solution, it's using https://github.com/DerGuteMoritz/clj-oauth2
06:16	clgv	but someone mentioned an oauth plugin for friend
06:16	clgv	michaelr525: ah ok
06:16	clojure-newcomer	michaelr525: thanks for the link, interesting
06:16	michaelr525	yeah, no problem
06:16	clgv	michaelr525: didnt see it in the project.clj
06:16	clojure-newcomer	yeah, friend looks like it has room for this kind of thing
06:17	michaelr525	clgv: it's using this, https://github.com/maxweber/clj-facebook-graph and this is using the oauth
06:18	michaelr525	actually i have a problem with it connecting to facebook https, trying to solve by converting to the latest versions of all libraries used
06:18	clojure-newcomer	I'll watch your updates so I benefit from your solutions :-)
06:19	michaelr525	SSLPeerUnverifiedException peer not authenticated sun.security.ssl.SSLSessionImpl.getPeerCertificates (SSLSessionImpl.java:371)
06:19	michaelr525	i get this shit ^^
06:19	michaelr525	clojure-newcomer: it's not my solution, i'm using it as well :)
06:20	clojure-newcomer	sorry.. I should have been clearer… when you iron out the problems, I'll just follow along :-)
06:31	clgv	michaelr525: there was a discussion on the clj-oauth2 yesterday in #clojure.de
06:40	michaelr525	clgv: hmm
06:41	michaelr525	clgv: what's the deal with it?
06:41	clgv	michaelr525: if I remember correctly, the-kenny wanted to use it and ran into several problems - I think he mentioned that he is going to fork it
06:42	michaelr525	clojure-newcomer: solved this problem. had to add the certificates to the local key store. follow this post if you get a similar problem: http://davidjb.com/blog/2012/02
06:43	michaelr525	clgv: so far it's working well for me, i'm building a site with facebook integration.
06:45	michaelr525	clgv: maybe i should not have said that because i immediatly got this stacktrace :)
06:46	clgv	lets give you better karma ;)
06:46	clgv	(inc michaelr525)
06:46	lazybot	⇒ 1
06:46	michaelr525	hehe
07:00	clojure-newcomer	michaelr525: sweet, good to know
07:03	edoloughlin	Any compojure users out there? I'm upgrading from 0.4.0 to 1.1.0 and it no longer likes my destructuring: (POST "/interviews/:id" [{{id "id"} :params} {{interview :interview} :params}] …) — I get "Unexpected binding: {{id "id"} :params}" when compiling.
07:03	edoloughlin	Other bindings that use :params are accepted.
07:18	clgv	edoloughlin: how about [{{id "id", interview :interview} :params}] ?
07:22	Rakin05	hey guys. i've got a question. i hack java for about 5 years now and wanna learn a new language concept without loosing the jvm. is clojure a good bet for that task?
07:22	clgv	Rakin05: definitely
07:22	Rakin05	clgv: what about scala?
07:23	clgv	Rakin05: could be - didnt read much of it, yet
07:25	Rakin05	are there any bigger industry projects build with clojure?
07:27	clgv	Rakin05: with clojure you can learn lisp and function programming
07:27	clgv	Rakin05: twitter uses clojure
07:30	matessim	join #arch-linux
07:36	dabd	is there a better wrapper for jfreechart than incanter support? I think incanter jfreechart interface does not allow full customization of charts but I may be wrong.
07:37	edoloughlin	clgv: Thanks, will try it. Eclipse/CCW is acting up at the moment so I've got to fix that first...
07:38	clgv	edoloughlin: oh, what version? with leiningen-plugin?
07:38	clgv	dabd: yeah it does not
07:38	edoloughlin	Indigo with the CCW lein beta. Was working fine all morning and now it times out waiting for the REPL to start...
07:39	clgv	dabd: but you can come pretty far by starting with incanter.charts if it has your desired chart and then modify it with JFreeChart API via Java interop
07:39	clgv	edoloughlin: oh. refresh your whole workspace
07:40	clgv	edoloughlin: there is still an issue with missing "classes" folder although it gets generated and such
07:41	dabd	clgv: ok seems viable
07:42	edoloughlin	clgv: Thank. That worked even though restarting Eclipse didn't!
07:42	edoloughlin	clgv: s/Thank/Thanks/
07:45	edoloughlin	clgv: No luck with the destructuring change though :(
07:45	edoloughlin	I've tracked it down to a change between compojure-0.5.3 and 0.6.0
07:50	cshell	cemerick: What tool do you use to create the flow charts like the one for how you choose between defrecord, protocol, etc?
07:51	cemerick	Omnigraffle.
07:53	cshell	ah very nice
07:53	cshell	thanks
07:53	cshell	if you werne't using a mac, do you know what you'd use?
07:54	cshell	cemerick: also, are you using someting that detects when someone uses your name in chat? You're always quite responsive
07:54	lpetit	It's official, Counterclockwise (Eclipse plugin for Clojure) now ships with Leiningen 2 support!
07:54	cshell	yay!
07:54	lpetit	See http://t.co/PGvOAbcc and http://t.co/SQ9fWqqw
07:55	logaan1	i'm looking for a function that tests a value against a predicate and returns that value if the predicate returned true, otherwise returns a fallback value
07:55	logaan1	does something like that exist in core?
07:55	cshell	there's identity
07:55	cshell	which returns the value
07:56	lpetit	logaan1: not that I'm aware of
07:56	logaan1	(ifpred empty? "me" "fallback") ; => "me"
07:56	logaan1	(ifpred empty? "" "fallback") ; => "fallback"
07:56	logaan1	lpetit: thx. guess i'll roll my own
07:57	edoloughlin	lpetit: Congratulations and thanks! Is there any reason to keep on the beta version now or do you recommend switching back to STABLE?
07:57	lpetit	loogan1: do you want something special? Test for true true, or truethiness ?
07:58	lpetit	edoloughlin: thanks. As you want. I've already upgraded the beta "channel" with a 0.9.1beta which is really just the 0.9.0 with updated metadata
07:59	lpetit	the beta channel is not fed by CI, and if you also don't have automatic upgrade from software updates enabled in your Eclipse installation, I guess you're quite safe staying on the beta channel.
07:59	logaan1	lpetit: sorry i don't understand
08:00	lpetit	logaan1: do you consider nil as a false value, as does clojure ?
08:01	lpetit	logaan1: if so, what you're after don't deserve a function: (if (pred x) x :default)
08:02	patrkris	hi folks. inspired by SICP, I wrote the sqrt approximation function using newton-rhapson. i've used loop-recur, but is it better/more idiomatic to rewrite using reduce somehow? here it is: http://patrkris.dk/~patrick/code/newton_sqrt.clj
08:03	logaan1	lpetit: yep that's exactly what i've been doing. was just hoping to avoid the repetition of x. by moving that if statement into a function that takes two values and a predicate I can save myself needing to use let to bind x.
08:04	lpetit	logaan1: oh yes
08:53	the-kenny	michaelr525: Ping. Still there?
08:54	the-kenny	clgv: Yeah, I forked it. There were some issues in combination with Google.
08:56	the-kenny	Oh, his problem is solved. Nevermind :)
08:56	clgv	lpetit: great! is something like :project-init supported?
08:57	clgv	lpetit: in general I mean executing custom code before the repl starts and begins to load namespaces...
08:58	michaelr525	the-kenny: i'm here
08:59	Chiron_	Hi all! would you please have a look at this: http://pastie.org/4126179
09:00	the-kenny	michaelr525: I was just pinging you about the clj-oauth2 problem
09:01	lpetit	clgv: is :project-init in Lein2 ? not supported yet, but would be easy to do so, IMHO
09:02	michaelr525	the-kenny: oh, it wasn't a problem with clj-oauth2 :). just clgv asked which oauth lib i'm using so it looked like i have a problem with oauth
09:02	michaelr525	hehe
09:02	foxdonut	"Clojure: The Definitive Guide" book review: "Sadly, unrelated to breaking up... I thought I'd get some kind of relief from reading this. But no, it's about some computer thing. Sad. Guess I'll have to go back to stalking..."
09:02	clgv	lpetit: it was in lein1 - I do not know if there is an equivalent in lein2. I hope so and I am wanting this for Eclipse since a while.
09:02	foxdonut	Reply: "If you need to find a new girlfriend and have issue talking to people: 'Smalltalk Best Practice Patterns.'"
09:03	foxdonut	*Closure
09:03	clgv	lpetit: advanced repl search with partial lines of code didnt make it into stable builds yet?
09:03	cshell	lol
09:03	lpetit	clgv: please find its lein2 equivalent, and create an issue for this with some detail you can thing of
09:03	lpetit	clgv: still in cemerick's todo list, afaik
09:05	lpetit	clgv: I don't see :project-init in lein2's sample project.clj: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
09:05	clgv	lpetit: yeah, I do not as well :(
09:06	lpetit	clgv: oh, there's :repl-options
09:06	clgv	yeah but :project-init was different from :repl-init afaik
09:07	lpetit	clgv: see, that's not really clear atm. Feel free to start recording the state of this by creating an issue and starting accumulating knowledge.
09:08	clgv	lpetit: but that feature could be implemented independent of lein2 in Eclipse as well.
09:12	clgv	lpetit: hmm maybe the :repl-options :init is sufficient. I have to check that.
09:12	clgv	lpetit: but that is not supported at,?
09:14	lpetit	clgv: atm, :repl-options :init is not supported. What is supported is launching "clojure applications". And you can modify the associated launch configurations so that you start any code you want
09:14	lpetit	clgv: for instance, start from the project's root a repl. then find the associated aunch configuration via run > run as …
09:15	clgv	lpetit: ah. good to know. where the thousands of run configuration superseeded by a single one?
09:15	lpetit	clgv: and then, open the "arguments" tab, and in the "program arguments" for the JVM, enter -e "(require 'clojure.string)" and voila, -e … will be added to the command line used by eclipse to launch your repl
09:15	clgv	lpetit: I still have one for every file in my workspace ;)
09:16	lpetit	clgv : well, you'll have to test it :)
09:21	clgv	lpetit: tested with println. works! but would be neat to have it on the clojure page with a clojure editor :)
09:21	lpetit	clgv: no, still as many launch configurations as "selected resources" when asked to launch
09:22	lpetit	clgv: didn't understand
09:22	lpetit	"to have on the … with a … " ???
09:22	lazybot	lpetit: Oh, absolutely.
09:22	clgv	lpetit: executing code with the jvm argument "-e"
09:22	lpetit	oh :)
09:23	clgv	lpetit: ah, the clojure tab of the run configuration
09:23	lpetit	Well, indeed currently, let's say it's the "most generic" solution :)
09:23	clgv	yeah.
09:24	lpetit	clgv: if I add support for lien's :repl, I'm not sure I will also work more on the launch configurations
09:25	clgv	lpetit: yeah. that would be redundant. having it in lein's :repl is a single source of configuration :)
09:27	clgv	lpetit: now that I deleted the thousands of run configurations, finally "load file in repl" works like it is supposed to :)
09:27	ohpauleez	Thanks for everyone who came last night to ClojureNYC
09:27	lpetit	clgv: thousands, really ? ;)
09:27	clgv	lpetit: they did not fit on one page. ;)
10:24	AWizzArd	I would like to use Clojure as a scripting language (JSR 223) in a JavaFX app, to be specific: in a .fxml file.
10:26	lpetit	AWizzArd: good luck
10:26	AWizzArd	In that file I can specify <?language javascript?> and this is accepted. When I say however <?language clojure?> I get a NPE. Is some specific "definiton file" required to be on the CP to let the JVM know that a JSR 223 compatible language is available?
10:34	AWizzArd	lpetit: it seems something such as http://code.google.com/p/clojure-jsr223/ would be required as a dep.
10:37	Chiron_	I'm calling map (that its function calls str function) inside doseq , why the result of map isn't displayed on repl?
10:41	tbaldridge	Chiron_: doseq doesn't return anything IIRC
10:43	tbaldridge	Chiron_: look at doall, I think that's what you're looking for
10:43	Chiron_	wrap do all around map?
10:43	tbaldridge	(doall (map #(do (print %) %) (range 10)))
10:45	Chiron_	not working for me: http://pastie.org/4126713
10:47	tbaldridge	I think you're missing a println there, something like this? http://pastie.org/4126726
10:47	tbaldridge	I guess I'm not exactly sure what you want this function to do, is it supposed to print data, or return data, or both?
10:48	Chiron_	true, missing println
10:48	Chiron_	it is a prototype
10:49	Chiron_	I want to extract data and insert into db
10:51	N8Dawg	help, does anyone here have experience with swank-cdt?
10:52	N8Dawg	i'm using lein 1.7.1 and swnak-clojure 1.4.2
10:54	the-kenny	Chiron_: If you want to iterate over a seq for side effects, you should use "doseq". It's like for, but throws away the result and is not lazy.
10:54	N8Dawg	when i run (use 'swank.cdt) I get the error: com.sun.jdi.Bootstrap [Thrown class java.lang.ClassNotFoundException]
10:54	Chiron_	i feel bad to use deseq inside another doseq
10:56	the-kenny	Chiron_: doseq supports the same "nesting" as for: (for [x (range 3), y (range 3)] [x y]) -> [[0 0] [0 1] [0 2] [1 0] [1 1], ...]
10:56	the-kenny	for ist list comprehension :)
10:56	VickyIyer	Hi there I am newbe to the clojure language, just wanted to know how common is it that we have inter-ops apps where we have clojure code embedded into the java code. or is the common sense approach to use only pure clojure code and call java library functions when required.
10:57	jsabeaudry	VickyIyer, I'd say pure clojure calling libs
10:58	the-kenny	But you can easily generate classes out of namespaces for use in Java.
10:59	VickyIyer	yeah, but I just thouught that might be difficult, cause would a function name my-name in clojure get translated to java as - is not valid for a function name in java
11:03	TimMc	VickyIyer: It gets converted into my_name or somesuch.
11:05	TimMc	&(munge 'my-name*!?)
11:06	lazybot	⇒ my_name_STAR__BANG__QMARK_
11:06	jsabeaudry	VickyIyer, keep in mind that you can name your clojure functions MyName if your objective is to have them fit in the java world
11:07	TimMc	You can also use gen-class and defrecord and such to ease interop from the Java side.
11:17	gfredericks	VickyIyer: you might find lib-2367 interesting
11:17	gfredericks	$google lib-2367
11:17	lazybot	[fredericksgary/lib-2367 · GitHub] https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367
11:22	TimMc	&(apply str "lib-" (repeatedly 4 #(rand-int 10)))
11:22	lazybot	⇒ "lib-9791"
11:22	gtrak	ibdknox: do you have any thoughts on light-table plugins/api guidelines yet?
11:26	VickyIyer	Thanks a lot all, it was very helpful
11:33	gfredericks	&(format "%04d" (rand-int 10000))
11:33	lazybot	⇒ "7235"
11:33	gfredericks	&(format "lib-%04d" (rand-int 10000))
11:33	lazybot	⇒ "lib-7198"
11:34	TimMc	hrmph
11:35	gfredericks	TimMc: I've been doing this for a while
11:38	Shambles_	I'm using Eclipse with Counterclockwise for Clojure support. Is there some way I can get it's REPL to use Clojure 1.4.0 rather than 1.3.0? I'm using the latest version of Counterclockwise (0.9.0).
11:39	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: It doesn't honor the version of clojure defined in your project?
11:41	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I've made a 'hello world' project, and have this in my project.clj ([:dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.4.0"]]]) When I "Run As" and pick "Clojure Application" I still get the 1.3.0 REPL.
11:42	timvisher\|work	is that all you have in your project.clj?
11:42	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I wouldn't be surprised if I was doing something wrong, since I've had some significant difficulty getting this far, but I had to give up with this problem because Googling and trying to figure it out myself wasn't working.
11:42	timvisher\|work	that doesn't look valid
11:43	timvisher\|work	something like this would make more sense
11:43	timvisher\|work	https://gist.github.com/2966538
11:43	Shambles_	That's all I have in there yes. It's the same thing it started with as a default Leiningen project, only the version number was originally 1.3.0.
11:44	timvisher\|work	i use emacs, so i'm not sure the nuances of counterclockwise, but the REPL defaults to 1.3.0 I believe
11:44	timvisher\|work	have you run lein deps?
11:44	timvisher\|work	it's possible that counterclockwise doesn't update your dependencies automatically, though that would be counterintuitive
11:44	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I have not run lein deps yet.
11:45	timvisher\|work	you should never have to
11:45	timvisher\|work	not with the latest versions of leiningen, which i understand counterclockwise just upgraded to
11:46	timvisher\|work	are you sure it's 1.3.0?
11:46	timvisher\|work	what's clojure-version end up as?
11:46	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: The REPL says this: ;; Clojure 1.3.0
11:47	Shambles_	=> clojure-version
11:47	Shambles_	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
11:47	Shambles_	Running lein deps had no effect.
11:49	Shambles_	You mentioned he had 'just upgraded to the latest version'. Perhaps me using leiningen 1.7.1 (the last stable version) is the problem.
11:50	Shambles_	I am running the latest Eclipse and Counterclockwise and Clojure, so that's all I can think of, given I'm not using anything else at the moment.
11:54	dgrnbrg	how do I write a lein1 plugin that gets executed during init for every plugin?
11:55	lynaghk	ping: ohpauleez
11:55	ohpauleez	lynaghk: pong
11:56	lynaghk	hey dude; how did your talk go yesterday evening?
11:56	ohpauleez	Really well, slides are up on my blog. dnolen kovasb and I talked about the "process problem" and getting better concurrency in the browser
11:57	ohpauleez	A lot of great questions about ClojureScript in production - concerns, risks, things I would have done differently
11:58	lynaghk	ohpauleez: rad! Yeah, I am thinking I need to get a blog and start writing that kind of stuff down
11:58	ohpauleez	Showed some demos of Shoreleave-enabled apps
11:58	ohpauleez	lynaghk: For sure, it helps for personal docs too - I used to swear by my research notebooks. But now I just do a quick search on my blog to pull something up
12:00	lynaghk	ohpauleez: are you planning on submitting your TodoMVC to the core project? I was thinking about doing that, if only to see what their reaction would be to something so completely different
12:01	dgrnbrg	Does anyone have any idea why a simple project.clj with :eval-in-leiningen and 3 :dependencies in lein1, would not include those dependencies in the jar when I do "lein uberjar"?
12:01	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: even leiningen 1.7.1 should honor what's in your project.clj file. sorry to say i'm at the end of my ability to help. :(
12:01	timvisher\|work	dgrnbrg: best to paste your project.clj file up somewhere
12:01	ohpauleez	lynaghk: I was on the fence leaning towards no, but if it got a lot of traction, I would consider it
12:02	ohpauleez	I would hate for it to navy,Z"
12:02	ohpauleez	wow, apple, stop auto typing
12:02	ohpauleez	X, Y, Z*
12:02	dgrnbrg	timvisher\|work: I can't paste all of it, but with just one dep, it's (defproject foo "1.0.0" :eval-in-leiningen true :dependencies [[conch "0.2.1"]])
12:02	lynaghk	ohpauleez: you mean Shoreleave traction?
12:02	dgrnbrg	it's extremely minimal
12:02	ohpauleez	ok, second take: I would hate for the conversation to spin off into - "Why the hell does CLJS do X, Y, Z"
12:03	ohpauleez	lynaghk: Yeah. Because the TodoMVC just highlights my opinions about how to build CLJS apps, not how CLJS should be used to built TodoMVC
12:03	timvisher\|work	dgrnbrg: if you uberjar a fresh project, does it include what you expect?
12:03	scriptor	wait, there's a cljs TodoMVC?
12:03	dgrnbrg	timvisher\|work: it appears to be due to the :eval-in-leiningen
12:04	ohpauleez	lynaghk: (my opinions, as expressed via Shoreleave)
12:04	lynaghk	ohpauleez: ah, right. Yeah, I wanted to run my version by some folks before submitting
12:04	dgrnbrg	if i remove that, it uberjars everything
12:04	dgrnbrg	unfortunately, i need both :/
12:04	lynaghk	to see if they thought it's idiomatic cljs (or as close as something like that could be)
12:04	timvisher\|work	i've never used that feature of lein so i can't tell you anything about what's happening
12:04	timvisher\|work	:(
12:04	ohpauleez	scriptor: lynaghk and I both are working on TodoMVC demos of our CLJS stack technologies
12:04	timvisher\|work	0/2
12:04	scriptor	nice
12:04	ohpauleez	lynaghk: exactly
12:04	lynaghk	scriptor: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2-demos/tree/master/todoMVC
12:04	scriptor	I'd be so happy if I could figure out a way to use cljs here
12:05	scriptor	looking at backbone for now
12:05	ohpauleez	I abuse protocols, and I force this weird pubsub thing - etc. I'm not sure that's worth showing the JS community at large
12:05	lynaghk	ohpauleez: well, mine is pretty much all standard CLJS except for data-binding from C2.
12:05	ohpauleez	scriptor: I would say it's VERY possible to use CLJS in place of Backbone
12:05	scriptor	how weird? I thought pubsub was generally used for updating models
12:06	ohpauleez	scriptor: Weird as in - not a normal interaction you'd see in CLJ perhaps. But definitely a nicer way to bind up the internals of a CLJS app (again, totally my opinion)
12:07	ohpauleez	Far superior to littering event related code in your functions
12:07	ohpauleez	Which is a tax on cognition when building sizable apps
12:07	scriptor	hmm, one issue I have with cljs is that even with advanced optimization on, compiling a simple alert() leads to a 114kb js file
12:08	ohpauleez	Right, then gzip that file
12:08	ohpauleez	and it's 32kb'
12:08	ohpauleez	Which is 1/3 the size of jQuery
12:08	ohpauleez	through the same compilation process
12:08	scriptor	true, but backbone's only 5kb :/
12:08	ohpauleez	That's not true
12:08	ohpauleez	when you glom on all the other libraries you need to make it go
12:09	ohpauleez	you end up with 100's of kbs
12:09	ohpauleez	easily
12:09	scriptor	hmm
12:09	lynaghk	scriptor: if you are working with a designer, they will probably just put an unoptimized JPEG on the page that's 700kB anyway, so don't sweat the JS =P
12:09	ohpauleez	And really, if you have a CDN, does 50-100 KB for one request, that's going to be cached client side matter?
12:09	ohpauleez	Also, what lynaghk said
12:10	scriptor	yea, size won't be that big of an issue in the end
12:10	scriptor	it's more the training people to move away from jquery and learn cljs
12:10	ohpauleez	I've found the easy path to CLJ and CLJS is using JavaScript as the mind-migration language
12:10	scriptor	also, I've only been here less than 2 weeks, so I don't think I have much influence :)
12:11	ohpauleez	Python/Ruby + JavaScript is enough for people to get over the hump with Clojure. At least in my experience
12:11	ohpauleez	scriptor: Just shout louder than everyone else
12:11	ohpauleez	haha
12:11	ohpauleez	:)
12:16	technomancy	clgv: :injections does what :project-init used to do, but better
12:19	clgv	technomancy: oh interesting. gotta tell lpetite ;)
12:19	clgv	technomancy: thanks for the info :)
12:20	nDuff	lpetit: I'm using clojure.aav updated to 1.4.0; should I fork/rename? Submit the updated manifest back? ...?
12:21	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I tried updating to the latest Leiningen code on github, and it solved the problem. I'm sorry to have troubled other people with it. I just couldn't figure out the source of the problem. I normally run stable versions is all.
12:22	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: no problem! glad you got it sorted out. don't be afraid to ask questions! :)
12:22	technomancy	dgrnbrg: what's the use case for :eval-in-leiningen together with uberjar? I've never heard of anyone using the two in the same project.
12:22	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I'm not used to friendly IRC channels, though it seems /some/ of the Lisp channels are okay. It's just taking some getting used to.
12:23	timvisher\|work	you should see some of the things i've asked here :)
12:23	timvisher\|work	clojure's community is maybe its best feature
12:24	cgag	yeah i don't think i've seen anyone be anything but nice since i started hanging out in here
12:25	technomancy	there are a few you have to watch out for; I don't want to name any names but it starts with cloj and ends with urebot.
12:25	timvisher\|work	true-
12:25	timvisher\|work	no one likes dealing with that guy
12:25	timvisher\|work	cantankerous to the core
12:25	gfredericks	~botsmack
12:25	clojurebot	Owww!
12:26	technomancy	nothing like this guy thankfully though: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4c95766a8bdda347
12:28	Shambles_	I suspect I may have some trouble installing all these libraries I've found. I've managed to figure out that leiningen is what you use to build things with, but some of the packages don't have instructions for building them, and I'm not exactly sure what happens when I "lein install" something. I suspect it will involve having to change my CLASSPATH though.
12:28	technomancy	Shambles_: the goal of Leiningen is to ensure you never have to think about your classpath
12:28	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: Have you gone through https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/c155dd1e25f7db756787f630b33504f2b79ca649/doc/TUTORIAL.md ?
12:29	technomancy	^ aka `lein help tutorial`
12:29	timvisher\|work	might be worth your time
12:29	timvisher\|work	technomancy: you tricky devil you
12:29	technomancy	timvisher\|work: even just `lein tutorial` on the latest
12:29	technomancy	partially-applied aliases ... <3
12:29	uvtc	Shambles_, maybe have a look at http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/ to explain how things fit together.
12:30	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: unfortunately, clojure startup is still really rough
12:31	Shambles_	technomancy: I skimmed it, mostly to find out that what I wanted to know wasn't in there. I have had to do a lot of CLASSPATH fiddling, and even write a 'cute' batch file (doing something I didn't know could be done) just to get to where I am. Clojure and tools don't install that easily on Windows.
12:31	uvtc	timvisher\|work, if you see any improvements that could be made to the Brief Beginner's Guide, ^^ please let me know.
12:31	Shambles_	technomancy: From what I can tell installed things end up somewhere under .m2 or .lein in my profile directory.
12:32	technomancy	that's a local cache, yeah. you shouldn't have to think about that unless things go horribly wrong though
12:32	technomancy	what did you find missing from the tutorial?
12:32	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: install puts local projects into your local .m2 and can get in the way of repeatability
12:32	timvisher\|work	technomancy: `lein help repeatability` ?
12:32	technomancy	timvisher\|work: not a bad idea
12:33	technomancy	at first it felt a bit too ranty for the official docs, but it comes up so often
12:33	timvisher\|work	i'll get right on that after i make my other contribution…
12:33	timvisher\|work	:)
12:33	Shambles_	technomancy: To get Clojure and Leiningen working I had to manually modify my CLASSPATH to point to the directories of the appropriate JAR's. I learned the hard way that you could not include the JAR's themselves in the classpath. That made Clojure easy to run, but made Leiningen throw an exception.
12:34	technomancy	Shambles_: that's awful. so I guess there are some serious problems with the Windows installation instructions?
12:34	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: You shouldn't have to install any jars at all
12:34	Shambles_	technomancy: After getting that settled, I had to write a batch file to launch Clojure. The trick was finding some way to make the batch file only care about the /relative/ path. The 'cute' part of that was finding out that variable expansion can occur within double quotes (necessary to handle the spaces in the pathnames).
12:34	timvisher\|work	the bat file should just work. does for me any way
12:34	technomancy	you needed a batch file to launch Clojure?
12:35	technomancy	you mean to launch a Clojure repl?
12:35	Shambles_	Then I had to add them manually to my path variables, not that that's anything unique to this experience, nor was it hard to figure out. The former did take a while though.
12:35	Shambles_	technomancy: Yes, to the needing a batch file.
12:35	technomancy	sure; I don't think there's any way around the PATH issue
12:35	timvisher\|work	Shamles_: something is going very wrong with your system. :)
12:35	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: ^
12:35	technomancy	Shambles_: why did you need to "launch Clojure"?
12:36	technomancy	Clojure is not an end-user application, it's a library
12:36	Shambles_	technomancy: So I could type (+ 2 2) at the REPL and see it working before moving on to greater things like getting Eclipse working with it.
12:36	technomancy	did you try `lein repl`?
12:37	Shambles_	Also, I might someday want to run it from the command line. People do this sort of thing all the time with most Lisps.
12:37	Shambles_	lein wasn't on the system at the time. I didn't even know it existed until I found stuff I wanted to install requiring it.
12:37	Shambles_	Namely, seesaw.
12:37	technomancy	oh, ok; so this is before you found lein.
12:38	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: most people I've heard at this point recommend just using lein or cake and not bothering to write all your own bootstrapping code
12:38	timvisher\|work	if you had to do all of that bootstrapping work yourself i definitely appreciate your pain
12:38	timvisher\|work	i'd recommend getting rid of all of it and just using lein
12:38	technomancy	if you have any details about the specifics of the install instructions that didn't work it would be great if you could open a bug report
12:39	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Oh I've learned more than I expected to need to to be able to type stuff at Clojure. Cake, for instace, has been integrated into Leiningen, and seems to no longer be recommended for that reason (thank God... the last thing I need is more stuff to install just so I can install stuff that I actually want :P ).
12:39	technomancy	clojurebot: yo dawg I heard...
12:39	clojurebot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! def is bad!
12:39	technomancy	o_O
12:39	timvisher\|work	and in fact all of that goes away as far as i know if you're using ccw. i don't think you're even supposed to be required to have clojure or lein on your system
12:40	timvisher\|work	cake got integrated in to lein?
12:40	Shambles_	Well, here's how I got to this point...
12:40	timvisher\|work	when'd that happen? :)
12:40	technomancy	timvisher\|work: announced at the last conj
12:40	timvisher\|work	good stuff
12:40	timvisher\|work	i've still yet to watch all the videos
12:41	timvisher\|work	so how awesome was bodil's video, eh?
12:41	Shambles_	Once upon a time I wanted to mess with a Scheme, with nice I/O facilities. Unfortunately, I ran into some snags... things it just couldn't do, or be made to do, without dealing with the FFI and (if I want the patch accepted) writing code for a OS I don't have access to.
12:41	timvisher\|work	pretty freaking awesome
12:42	technomancy	still need to watch that one
12:42	timvisher\|work	haha! i'm watching cemerick's what sucks video _literally_ right now and _literally_ he's talking about crossing the chasm of installing clojure
12:42	timvisher\|work	apropos…
12:43	Shambles_	Eventually I settled on something that would run on the JVM or CLR. While there's several Lisp and Schemes that do this, a lot of them have /other/ limitations. Eventually I ended up picking Clojure.
12:43	Shambles_	So I go to the Clojure website, download it, and try to make it do something.
12:43	Shambles_	Hence the BAT adventure.
12:43	timvisher\|work	yep
12:43	timvisher\|work	i don't think anything you did was non-sensical
12:43	foxdonut	timvisher\|work: link to video list?
12:44	timvisher\|work	i think you just got unlucky with your search results and got some bad starting advice
12:44	timvisher\|work	foxdonut: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/What-Sucks-about-Clojure-and-Why-You-ll-Love-It-Anyway
12:44	Shambles_	Then I start looking for something with acceptable paren matching that doesn't randomly hang on Windows like the Cygwin EMACS port has done for about 2 years. Extra points for the ability to do things like display trees without resorting to ASCII art.
12:44	timvisher\|work	but the full 2012 conj is up on blip, no? http://blip.tv/clojure
12:44	cgag	you should just run linux in a vm
12:44	uvtc	~getting-started
12:44	clojurebot	Maybe have a look at http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started .
12:44	Shambles_	Then I find out all these nifty libraries, like the one I found before picking Clojure which adds continuations back in, require this Lein thing...
12:45	Shambles_	So... more 'fun'. :P
12:45	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: why don't you just use emacsw32?
12:45	timvisher\|work	it's stable as all get out and works great within the whole eco-system
12:45	foxdonut	timvisher\|work: thanks! combination of two links is what I was hoping for :)
12:45	timvisher\|work	i do full slime/swank/lein clojure all the time on windows
12:45	timvisher\|work	foxdonut: yessir
12:46	technomancy	oh nice; when did vimeo start offering video downloads without logging in?
12:46	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I do believe it would have the same 'hangs at random' issues the Cygwin port does, since I think it is in fact the Cygwin port. Also, it doesn't do the "displays trees without resorting to ASCII art" and other such things. It does a dandy job matching parens and auto-reformatting code, at least.
12:46	timvisher\|work	technomancy: always had if uploader allowed it, i thought
12:46	metajack	I'm watching a vimeo video now and it doesn't have a download link. So it must depend on something other than login state.
12:47	foxdonut	technomancy: I always just find the videos in the browser's cache ;)
12:47	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: what feature displays trees?
12:47	timvisher\|work	and it's definitely not the cygwin port
12:47	technomancy	timvisher\|work: oh, so now I know who to blame =)
12:47	technomancy	foxdonut: there's a trick you can do with the RSS feed
12:47	technomancy	or maybe that's blip.tv
12:47	foxdonut	technomancy: vimeo, blip.tv, youtube, whatever, it doesn't matter, I just find them in the cache!
12:47	timvisher\|work	it can't be because cygwin is emulating linux system calls to it's sub-processes
12:48	Shambles_	I could run Linux in a VM, but I have a Linux box next to me. I just happen to like to be able to develop on whatever I please. Really "switch operating systems" isn't a great answer for something that's supposed to have write-once run-anywhere as a feature. :P
12:48	Wild_Cat	also, blip.tv currently fails miserably with recent versions of Chrome dev.
12:48	technomancy	foxdonut: handy
12:48	cgag	Shambles_: ha i know, sorry... it just sounds so much more painful on windows
12:48	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: that's one of the big reasons i chose emacs, because it does work so seamlessly across my windows box and my mac
12:48	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: There's some elisp code to display trees in EMACS to make it closer to a modern IDE. It has to do it with ASCII art.
12:49	timvisher\|work	is that CEDET?
12:49	timvisher\|work	i've never gone back to wanting trees even since i found textmate-minor-mode's find-file-in-project
12:49	timvisher\|work	so much faster
12:49	technomancy	for the record, I've never claimed Leiningen is write-once-run-anywhere =)
12:50	timvisher\|work	besides when i was using eclipse, I inevitably configured it to hide the project tree because clicking through that is just so darn inneficient
12:50	timvisher\|work	technomancy: but it's been that so far ;)
12:50	technomancy	timvisher\|work: it's more like "it currently happens to mostly work on Windows due to the efforts of some volunteers"
12:51	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I don't recall. I haven't attempted to use EMACS for anything more complex than editing text files in quite some time. I do like it for that. I just don't like it much for anything that actually needs more than text mode.
12:51	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: more than acceptable, of course. whatever tool fits you best is the tool you should use. my major point from before this discussion is that all of the tools, ccw/lein/cake/etc. are all trying to stop you from ever having to write your own bat files to run a repl
12:52	Shambles_	When working in IDE's I tend to double click the title bar of the code window when I want to edit code, then double click again to get the various browsing windows back. Avoids the whole inefficient use of space thng.
12:53	timvisher\|work	i got very used to navigating to them via their various alt-* hotkeys if i needed them to pop up and navigating around my source with things like their class or symbol search functions
12:53	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Given Clojure doesn't come with anything to allow you to use it, and tells you itself that to get a REPL you can work with you can type <long command line>, its really a pretty obvious thing to do.
12:53	timvisher\|work	which is basically what find-file-in-project gets me
12:53	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: On my adventures I encountered 'Lispbox' equivalents, but all were horribly out of date.
12:54	cgag	that long command was a pretty big turn off when i first tried to get started with clojure, before lein
12:54	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: But hey, you can do GUI's and sound with them, at least! ;)
12:54	timvisher\|work	you can do guis and sound with clojure too. :)
12:54	Shambles_	Well, my 'long command line' is now "clojure", so it acts just like the Python I'm used to. :P
12:54	technomancy	Clojure needs to stop telling people to launch it with java -cp [...]
12:54	Shambles_	Though I'm told I probably should have named it "clj".
12:55	technomancy	that's a crappy experience
12:55	timvisher\|work	watched the overtone presentation from the conj?
12:55	hiredman	technomancy: it works fine
12:55	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: better might be `lein repl`
12:55	timvisher\|work	and possibly having an alias set up or a bat file
12:56	technomancy	hiredman: discerning hackers insist on rlwrap-brand console interaction.
12:56	cgag	Shambles_: yeah, i didn't know much about writing bash scripts/functions at the time, or anything about classpaths, it took me forever to get to the point of being able to just run "clj"
12:56	hiredman	technomancy: that's just not true
12:56	Shambles_	technomancy: It would be crappier if there was no REPL at all. What would be better is saying "Clojure is meant to be run through one of these fine interfaces <big list>" and for those 'fine interfaces' to come pre bundled with nice installers/packages, or at least with a explanation of the necessary CLASSPATH fiddling.
12:56	timvisher\|work	and pomade for their hair
12:57	Shambles_	I mean, after getting past writing the batch file, it's easy enough to use, it just doesn't /come/ with a reasonable batch file or shell script.
12:57	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: lein doesn't require any CLASSPATH fiddling
12:57	timvisher\|work	all the batteries are included
12:57	cgag	now i pretty much never run clojure outside of lein though
12:57	hiredman	discerning hackers started using clojure before there was any tooling
12:57	technomancy	if the word classpath appears on the splash page of clojure.org we might as well go home =(
12:57	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: lein definitely does require CLASSPATH fiddling to get set up.
12:57	hiredman	technomancy: as you know I work from home
12:58	technomancy	hiredman: convenient, innit? =)
12:58	timvisher\|work	did you follow the install via the bat file?
12:58	hiredman	people complain and complain
12:58	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Try running it on Windows without having your CLASSPATH aimed at the directory you unzipped Clojure in. For extra fun, try running it with the CLASSPATH aimed at the JAR, rather than the directory.
12:58	timvisher\|work	without having your CLASSPATH set, which you should almost never do anyway on a systemwide basis?
12:58	hiredman	and guess what, they would complain and stumble around no matter what
12:58	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: that is how i run it every day
12:58	timvisher\|work	i've never directly downloaded the clojure jar files
12:59	timvisher\|work	i don't have them anywhere but in the .m2 directory of my home directory
12:59	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I just spent several hours getting it to work on Windows XP, so I'm quite convinced it's necessary.
12:59	timvisher\|work	i'm on windows xp too
12:59	technomancy	Shambles_: for the record you're the first person to report so
12:59	clojurebot	Records (and, long ago, structs) are "advanced features", which can cause significant pain if you don't get all the subtleties. If you're using them to create "classes" because classes are awesome, then you are probably better off just using plain old hashmaps, possibly with a :type key if you want to be clear about what type they are.
12:59	timvisher\|work	if you're system is working for you, that's great. i'm just saying that it doesn't have to be quite so complicated. :)
12:59	hiredman	so going on and on about the classpath and hiding it is such a waste
13:00	timvisher\|work	clojurebot: always a contributor
13:00	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:00	timvisher\|work	clojurebot: exactly
13:00	clojurebot	Huh?
13:00	timvisher\|work	clojurebot: i know right. talked to elisa lately?
13:00	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:00	technomancy	timvisher\|work: he's like the kid who's trying to be part of the conversation so he interjects because he hears a word he recognizes even though it's not relevant.
13:00	hiredman	it is a basic feature of the runtime
13:01	timvisher\|work	technomancy: you're making fun of me again, aren't you…
13:01	technomancy	timvisher\|work: no, it just literally reminds me of my kids
13:01	Shambles_	I'm aware that the CLASSPATH is just how the JVM works. I haven't used many Java applications before, and the few that I have used actually got launched via a batch file or shell script that came with the program.
13:02	timvisher\|work	lol
13:02	tbaldridge	The classpath stuff delayed my Clojure experience by about half a year. I picked it up, got insanely frustrated, and gave up. Once I found lein, I picked it up again.
13:02	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: the CLASSPATH is maybe one of the least understood and there-be-dragons part of the java start up experience in any language on the jvm
13:02	S11001001	,'[a: b]
13:02	timvisher\|work	thus most tools desperately try to hide you from it
13:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: a:>
13:03	timvisher\|work	take Eclipse and how it works
13:03	S11001001	,'[a : b]
13:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
13:03	timvisher\|work	lein does a great job of making it totally unnecessary, on any system, to mess with your classpath directly
13:03	foxdonut	(inc timvisher\|work)
13:03	lazybot	⇒ 1
13:03	timvisher\|work	technomancy: actually, if your CLASSPATH _is_ set, will that mess with lein or does it ignore it?
13:04	technomancy	timvisher\|work: newer versions ignore it entirely because nearly 100% of the people who set it are confused.
13:04	timvisher\|work	it sounds like Shambles_ had already set the CLASSPATH up before trying to get in to lein, so perhaps that's one of the problems?
13:04	Shambles_	I don't give up easily. I can generally get through anything, no matter how bad the UI. So far I've survived X-Window during the time it required manually written modelines, set up pppd and diald when it had to be done manually, used ML-Donkey (worst UI I've ever seen, even worse than X's old configs), and gotten rather good with Blender.
13:04	timvisher\|work	what about 1.7.1?
13:04	technomancy	I think 1.7.1 still checks it
13:04	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: you said you started with 1.7.1?
13:05	technomancy	but yeah, if there was stuff that was interfering it already in the env var then you would have to mess with it to get things working
13:05	timvisher\|work	my favorite window manager remains toms
13:05	technomancy	which is why it's best just to skip it entirely
13:05	timvisher\|work	that gorgeous green they chose is wonderfully soothing
13:05	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Yes, I was trying to use 1.7.1. After switching to the 2.0.0-preview6 it solved my problem of forcing me to use Clojure 1.3. It now uses whatever I tell it to.
13:07	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: so it sounds, perhaps, like the progression was: 1. Download clojure and follow core's awful instructions for getting set up. 2. Realize you need your CLASSPATH set and set it in your environment. 3. Realize that it's crazy to do that and find out about lein. 4. Use 1.7.1 which honors the CLASSPATH which is probably at this point in an undefined state. 5. Use lein latest which ignores the CLASSPATH and now everything
13:07	zach_	Can anyone recommend a good clojure noir project to look to for testing inspiration? I'm a bit new to testing in general, and would love an example.
13:07	timvisher\|work	so i bet now if you were to unset your CLASSPATH completely and run lein repl, you'd be right as rain
13:07	timvisher\|work	zach_: what kind of testing are you doing?
13:08	zach_	timvisher\|work: at the moment, pretty basic unit
13:08	zach_	timvisher\|work: eventually integration
13:08	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Close. You left out the "decided I needed a reasonable IDE" and flailing about until I decided on Eclipse and Counterclockwise.
13:08	timvisher\|work	of what part of the code?
13:08	timvisher\|work	unit testing the pages themselves or your functions?
13:08	zach_	models
13:08	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Also, something I haven't mentioned yet, just for fun...
13:08	gfredericks	anybody have an opinion on if (def-wrapper-macro ...) would be an appropriate addition to clojure.tools.macro?
13:08	zach_	so, functions
13:08	timvisher\|work	have you looked in to simply using http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.test-api.html
13:08	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.test-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
13:09	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Counterclockwise actually has extensions for working with Leiningen, but will only offer to install them if it can find Leiningen already installed. ;) Yes, I found this out by having to reinstall it.
13:09	timvisher\|work	lazybot: good job
13:09	timvisher\|work	duckduckgo: bad!
13:09	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: ah! i thought it was fully integrated at this point
13:09	foxdonut	duckduckgo?
13:10	timvisher\|work	http://duckduckgo.com/
13:10	zach_	timvisher\|work: Yes, I was planning on using clojure.test :). I was more thinking along the lines of organization, etc; but maybe I don't need to be worrying about that.
13:10	timvisher\|work	if you simply do a `lein new`, that gives you a pretty good organization to start with
13:10	timvisher\|work	but it doesn't provide great names for your test namespaces
13:10	Shambles_	So basically apparently what you're supposed to do is magically know you need this weird installer thing (that particular weird installer, not any of the less popular ones). Put it on. The 2.x ones, not the 1.x ones, because they're busted with Counterclockwise. Then put on Eclipse. Then put on Counterclockwise. If you do that, maybe you'd only have to fight your PATH, which isn't so bad.
13:11	foxdonut	timvisher\|work: geez, ok.. :)
13:11	Shambles_	I haven't figured out what to do about installing these fun addons yet, so I may be in for more adventures.
13:11	technomancy	Shambles_: I hope the 1.x/2.x confusion can be reduced soon; I recently switched over the docs to point all new users at 2.x
13:11	timvisher\|work	foxdonut: what you don't like it? ;)
13:12	zach_	timvisher\|work: What kind of namespacing would you recommend? project.test.models.model, for example?
13:12	foxdonut	timvisher\|work: don't get me wrong, I love ducks!
13:12	zach_	timvisher\|work: Or is that getting too specific?
13:12	Shambles_	technomancy: In my opinion if lein is going to be this vital, and supposed to be installed before everything else, Clojure should just ship with it.
13:12	timvisher\|work	i've been writing things ilke project.test.it-should-allow-users-to-authenticate
13:12	timvisher\|work	following BDD a bit more, perhaps
13:12	technomancy	Shambles_: it's more a question of getting the right links on clojure.org I think
13:13	zach_	timvisher\|work: Interesting, okay. Thanks for the ideas :)
13:13	timvisher\|work	but the standard project.foo tests being located in project.test.foo gets you pretty far
13:13	technomancy	since "ship with it" doesn't really make sense; clojure.org shouldn't ship anything
13:13	Shambles_	technomancy: I also think it should ship with working batch files and shell scripts so you can just run Clojure without having some other environment, to at least let you know it's working (e.g. that your JVM isn't horribly out of date or something).
13:13	technomancy	Shambles_: most of the wiki pages that are editable by the community already point you to the right place, but clojure/core has been very slow in getting updates to clojure.org and doesn't seem to prioritize "getting started" issues very highly
13:14	Shambles_	If you don't like the word "ship", how about "include it in a installer".
13:14	timvisher\|work	zach_: do keep in mind, if you're newer to clojure, that namespaces with `-`s have to have all of them translated to `_` in the file itself
13:14	timvisher\|work	i shoot myself in the foot with that semi-regularly
13:14	arrdem	is there some way I can make the Clojure compiler ignore unbound symbols?
13:15	arrdem	*not ignore, but not error on.
13:15	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: the thing is that clojure isn't really an installable thing
13:15	timvisher\|work	at least not at this turn
13:15	timvisher\|work	although i'd agree with you if you said that that's a bit confusing
13:15	technomancy	maybe someone should write a setup.exe wizard installer type thing for leiningen
13:16	technomancy	having to manually hunt down curl is kind of silly
13:16	timvisher\|work	technomancy: it shouldn't really be needed. the bat file works fine
13:16	timvisher\|work	well-
13:16	timvisher\|work	that's true
13:16	timvisher\|work	i do think it's more of a question of the clojure.org pointers all being outdated at this poin
13:16	timvisher\|work	point*
13:17	zach_	timvisher\|work: oh, cool! Thanks for the tip
13:17	dgrnbrg	technomancy: is there a way in lein1 to have a plugin run stuff when init.clj is run, even if that plugin wasn't chosen?
13:17	technomancy	dgrnbrg: no, closest thing is adding hooks
13:17	technomancy	dgrnbrg: it's on the table for 2.x though
13:18	dgrnbrg	technomancy: what is a hook? you mean to robert.hooke some random init fn?
13:18	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I know every language has the right to do its own thing, like Smalltalk thinking that OS's shouldn't exist, so it provides its own window manager and is rather filesystem hostile... but really, when someone says "I want to install Python (or Perl, or Ruby, or whatever)" they go download a installer or .rpm or .deb, stick it on, then there's /at least/ a command that brings up a REPL or spews a help page (for
13:19	dgrnbrg	technomancy: I did add-hook to the function I wanted to hook in my plugin, which should modify the behavior of eval-in-subprocess, but it doesn't get loaded unless I explicitly call
13:19	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: I really couldn't agree more. i'm just saying that so far clojure hasn't chosen to do that, and it leads to conversations like this if the person wasn't lucky enough to find leiningen first
13:19	technomancy	dgrnbrg: yeah, no way getting around the explicit :hooks declaration so far
13:19	dgrnbrg	is that in project.clj?
13:19	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: At no point when starting out with any other language would a package installer be the first thing I thought about. I wouldn't have said, you know, py2exe is really kick ass... Then install it, and realize... "Oh, I need that Python language thing, so I can write programs in it." It's kind of like picking out nice wagon wheels before you own a horse.
13:19	technomancy	yeah
13:20	technomancy	Shambles_: even if that's the right way to do it, that would require buy-in from clojure/core who have been very resistant so far. plus it would mean improvements on that would all have to go through the slow CA/patches-on-jira process; yuck
13:20	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: agreed, again, but i would say that lein is much more than a package installer
13:21	timvisher\|work	it's like gem + rake combined, or something
13:21	timvisher\|work	or gradle or maven if you've used those
13:21	S11001001	interesting, I always look for build tools first
13:21	timvisher\|work	i think that may be a source of confusion for you
13:21	dgrnbrg	technomancy: is the :hook namespace in a :dependency of the project, not a lein plugin? and do I need to set eval-in-leiningen to true if the hook is coming from a project I have listed as a dependency?
13:21	Shambles_	technomancy: Since Clojure is very distributed (not necessarily a good thing... everything in one place, like CPAN, makes it easy to browse), maybe the best solution would be a installer that queried (at least) the Clojure and Leiningen websites, and downloaded/installed them in the appropriate places. Then no cooperation would be necessary.
13:22	foxdonut	Just use lein. It does everything. It even keeps your coffee hot and your beer cold :-)
13:22	Shambles_	After that, the rest wouldn't be that painful.
13:22	technomancy	I don't get it; why would you want that?
13:22	timvisher\|work	foxdonut: it makes great table conversation with my wife and kids, as well
13:23	dgrnbrg	technomancy: to me or Shambles_ ?
13:23	technomancy	dgrnbrg: that was to Shambles_; I don't follow your question.
13:23	foxdonut	timvisher\|work: yeah, but nothing beats Smalltalk for that!
13:23	Shambles_	technomancy: Why would I want Clojure to come with Leiningen?
13:23	technomancy	the namespace for the :hooks entries need to come from plugins
13:23	technomancy	Shambles_: it already does
13:23	Shambles_	technomancy: Let me reword that.
13:24	Shambles_	technomancy: "Why would I want it to be impossible to install Clojure without Leiningen?"
13:24	S11001001	I don't see an issue with that
13:24	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: simplicity ;)
13:24	Shambles_	technomancy: The answer is "to avoid what I went through, because I didn't psychically know I needed a obscure piece of software I would never have installed willingly otherwise".
13:24	timvisher\|work	it's not impossible, any way, you appear to have succeeded in doing so
13:25	timvisher\|work	but the tool does make it much nicer
13:25	S11001001	I think obscure might be a little extreme
13:25	technomancy	Shambles_: sounds like a documentation problem to me
13:25	dgrnbrg	technomancy: i need to hook eval-in-subprocess to use lein in my environment, which requires running java classes with a weird, custom jvm-ish thing that needs a bunch of arg-munging. I have an init.clj that does the "right thing" and makes lein work, but i want to bundle it up into a lib/plugin, so that it's repeatable for everyone else in the firm. Since I can't force a plugin to get loaded every time lein is loaded, i need to use a hook. Is
13:25	dgrnbrg	:hook referring to a namespace in the :dependencies of the project (so that my init.clj code can be in a separate project)?
13:25	S11001001	you know, typesafe did a super-fancy installer package for scala
13:25	Shambles_	technomancy: Honestly I'm a fan of 'download a file, and run the installer'. I wouldn't go looking for programs to fetch stuff off remote repositories and build it. I know Clojure does things that way now. I know it would have avoided me needing to do some work. But it's extremely unintuitive.
13:25	S11001001	they also left out scala; it just installs the build tool
13:26	timvisher\|work	S11001001: you're name is the one i fear most while i'm here typing into web irc
13:26	foxdonut	Shambles_: what piece of software are you referring to?
13:26	timvisher\|work	but i'm getting pretty good at typing it nonetheless ^_^
13:26	technomancy	it's hard enough to get clojure/core to pay attention to issues when they're focused on making clojure a library. if you turn it into a user-level application too that just puts more work on their plate that they've repeatedly shown they're not interested in.
13:26	Shambles_	technomancy: Criticizing is really like yelling at the guy for not having bought nice wagon wheels before he bought a horse off you. It's irrational. If Leiningen is necessary to use Clojure, it should come with Clojure. Maybe you don't wanna deal with the Clojure guy directly for every little thing. The 'fetch and install the latest version of both' installer would avoid the need.
13:27	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: the thing is that it's not necessary
13:27	Shambles_	foxdonut: Leiningen. It's not something I knew about until later on. It's not something I would ever have wanted normally.
13:27	timvisher\|work	clojure works fine without leiningen
13:27	timvisher\|work	it actually works like all the other java library out there, where you need to muck with your classpath and get your dependencies right etc.
13:27	timvisher\|work	your criticism is more of the jvm and how it works, which sadly isn't changing any time soon
13:28	foxdonut	Shambles_: it's not hard to run clojure without lein. With or without lein, the vast majority of people don't seem to have a problem getting up and running. So I wouldn't say it's "extremely unintuitive".
13:28	technomancy	I agree the instructions on clojure.org are not very good, and I wish we could do something about them.
13:28	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: So long as you don't want to install anything that uses it, yes. Also, mind you you didn't think you should be able to use the REPL without some other environment (Clojure is a library), so without other software Clojure would be a nice file taking up space on your hard drive.
13:28	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: you mean without the jvm?
13:29	timvisher\|work	because as long as you do have the jvm, installing other libraries for clojure to use is as intuitive as anything else on the jvm without a tool
13:29	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: I mean without a batch file or shell script to make it into a reasonable command you could use to bring op the REPL.
13:29	timvisher\|work	but things like ant, maven, gradle, etc. exist because everyone hates that
13:29	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: like i said, that's just not what clojure is trying to be
13:29	technomancy	this is bigger than clojure anyway; the `java` command-line launcher is a joke to begin with
13:30	timvisher\|work	you need a tool to make it nicer, as you do with most things in java
13:30	foxdonut	I wouldn't call Leiningen an "obscure piece of software", either.
13:30	Shambles_	foxdonut: You may need to read scrollback.
13:30	timvisher\|work	technomancy: exactly
13:31	Shambles_	foxdonut: To someone that "wants to write in Clojure" Leiningen is likely to be the last thing on their mind. Downloading Clojure, and some IDE for it, is likely to be the first order of business. Doing that before Leiningen results in the problems I was trying to talk about, but seems nobody here wants to here it so I'll quieten down.
13:32	dgrnbrg	technomancy: if I want to use an ns with :hooks in lein1, can that ns be provided by a package in my :dependencies or :dev-dependencies?
13:33	technomancy	dgrnbrg: it has to be visible to leiningen's process, so :plugins or :dev-dependencies
13:33	dgrnbrg	technomancy: do I need to set :eval-in-leiningen to be true in the package containing the hook?
13:33	timvisher\|work	Shambles_: it's fine to gripe. i don't think anyone here thinks that clojure startup is all that intuitive
13:33	technomancy	dgrnbrg: no, :eval-in-leiningen is only relevant when developing on that project itself
13:33	timvisher\|work	the point is that there are things that make it nice and there aren't many good ways to fix what lead you to here
13:33	technomancy	once you're consuming it as a dependency it's ignored
13:34	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: Rather than agreeing with me All I heard was you, technomancy, and now foxdonut criticizing me for not psychically knowing I should have installed something I would have had no reason to look for.
13:34	foxdonut	Shambles_: "Doing that before Leiningen results in problems"-- again, I disagree, because many, many people have done that successfully. Now, being familiar with Java, the JVM, and the classpath certainly helps, and that is probably the target of your discontent, not Clojure itself.
13:35	technomancy	uh no, I said it sucks that the documentation is bad and I wish I could fix it.
13:35	dgrnbrg	technomancy: I have the :hooks set, and the project as a dev-dependency, but I do not think that the hook is running when i do "lein nailgun"
13:35	dgrnbrg	is there a way to debug the hooks?
13:36	technomancy	throw a few printlns in the hook defn I guess
13:36	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: There's good ways to fix what lead me here, yes. Python has Eggs. You download a file, then run the built in (comes with Python) egg installer. Racket has the (planet path/packagename:major:minor:file) 'inclusion' that goes and fetches packages off the central repository if it's not in your cache... All these work out of the box with little to no effort.
13:37	Shambles_	timvisher\|work: The package handler needs to come with the basic programming environment, however the problem is solved.
13:37	Shambles_	That doesn't mean it has to be in the same file, or that the authors have to cooperate much, but both need to end up on the user's system at the same time.
13:38	foxdonut	Shambles_: at the very basic, you could just download clojure.jar and run "java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main" to get a REPL. Done. What's so hard about that?
13:38	Shambles_	foxdonut: Try making it work on Windows such that you aren't dependent on the directory name.
13:39	Shambles_	foxdonut: And that it can be launched by including whatever directory it's in, in your path.
13:39	Shambles_	foxdonut: Though again that only solves the getting the REPL working, not all the rest of this stuff, which was due to me not installing Leiningen first.
13:46	TimMc	Basically, clojure.org is a complete mess.
13:46	TimMc	foxdonut: Nice try.
13:46	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: it is a shame that clojure.org doesn't refer to leiningen
13:47	dgrnbrg	it's the most awesome tool i've ever used
13:47	foxdonut	(inc TimMc)
13:47	lazybot	⇒ 8
13:47	Shambles_	So far I've been fairly pleased with the language itself. The stuff it didn't come with that I wanted, I was able to find libraries for. It's just the installation that's been painful.
13:47	arrdem	Shambles_: which is where lein comes in...
13:48	arrdem	with beer and deps.
13:48	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: once you rock out with lein, you'll realize how productive you can be. With lein vimclojure, lein test, lein deps, lein swank
13:48	dgrnbrg	or lein clojars, lein hadoop, lein guzheng (shameless plug)
13:48	dgrnbrg	i just listed deployment, testing, code coverage, and repl tools
13:49	TimMc	Shambles_: Unfortunately, clojure.org is controlled by folks who don't have the time+inclination to maintain it.
13:49	arrdem	Okay. so it's nailgun for EMACS
13:50	Shambles_	Things I liked that I found on clojure.org was a description of how it differs from other Lisps, the cheat sheet, and the special forms list (mostly due to the discussion of the threading operator, which I haven't seen elsewhere).
13:50	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: have you seen clojuredocs.org?
13:50	dgrnbrg	that's better for documentation, imo
13:50	Shambles_	dgrnbrg: I haven't.
13:50	dgrnbrg	it's my favorite for user contributed examples + good organization
13:50	arrdem	clojuredocs is way better... mostly due to the examples
13:50	dgrnbrg	but it's only useful for the core
13:51	scriptor	clojuredocs has good search too
13:52	Shambles_	I know about Clojars. It's your rough equivalent to CPAN, Python Cheese Shop, or PLaneT. Hadoop is familiar for some reason, but I don't know why, and I haven't seen that last one.
13:52	Shambles_	Clojars should be a lot more 'visible' IMO, but that'd require clojure.org cooperation.
13:52	redwire	I'm having some trouble with some code. http://pastebin.com/ZaxzTixE For some reason when load this I get java.lang.Exception: Unmatched delimiter: ) (wordtree.clj:17) though I'm sure the parens are matched and everything runs when I take out the println call.
13:53	hiredman	redwire: 't'
13:53	aaelony	use one single quote
13:53	redwire	Oh shoot it's \t in Clojure, isn't it?
13:53	hiredman	also 'a'
13:53	hiredman	and 't' again
13:53	hiredman	and use of structmaps
13:53	uvtc	TimMc, re. "time and inclination to maintain it", that doesn't make sense to me --- wouldn't they just delegate it to whomever's interested in getting it updated?
13:53	redwire	What's wrong with the use of structmaps?
13:54	dnolen	redwire: deprecated.
13:54	redwire	Really? I see. Normal maps, then?
13:54	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: clojars is just a maven repo--it's very hard/impossible to search for content, as it's just a thin view of maven. Plus, lein automagically searches it for you, so you almost never need it
13:54	dgrnbrg	and if you use lein outdated, it'll tell you which libs have newer version available
13:55	uvtc	Shambles_, btw, re. Python eggs, they're going away I think.
13:55	arrdem	redwire: deftype if possible...
13:55	dnolen	redwire: normal maps work great, also defrecord
13:56	dnolen	arrdem: defrecord closer to what structmap provides.
13:56	arrdem	dnolen: can you extend a deftype? I know that defrecord will let you spec a minimum key set..
13:57	TimMc	uvtc: I dunno, it seems like they don't trust the community to be a good resource. clojure.org is so self-contained, insular... I don't recall seeing any outbound links to community resources.
13:57	TimMc	SO that's a factor as well.
13:57	dnolen	arrdem: deftype is primitive, defines nothing.
13:57	Shambles_	uvtc: They've talked about the setuptools being replaced for quite some time, but in practice, nothing seems to ever be done. If that does happen, something else egg compatible will replace them. There's too much on the Python Cheese Shop to just get rid of support for it.
13:58	redwire	Thanks for the help, guys. Works just fine, now.
13:58	ystael	dgrnbrg: i'm trying out lein-guzheng ... would you have any insight into a Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: No such namespace: color , given that nothing named "color" appears anywhere in my code?
13:58	uvtc	Shambles_, should change once 3.3 is released.
13:58	foxdonut	redwire: cool nick
13:58	raek	arrdem\|lunch: you can assoc as many key-value pairs as you like with records
13:58	redwire	Thank you.
13:59	raek	(so they are not limited to the ones you declare)
13:59	dgrnbrg	ystael: could you post the whole stack trace on paste bin?
13:59	arrdem\|lunch	raek: thanks that's what I thought.
13:59	uvtc	TimMc, Ah. Hm. Reminds me ... I think I recall discussion on clojure-dev about removing the link to the wiki.
13:59	dgrnbrg	ystael: how are you invoking it?
13:59	dgrnbrg	usually you want something like "lein guzheng myproject.core -- test"
14:00	ystael	dgrnbrg: yes, precisely, though with 'midje' in place of 'test'
14:00	dgrnbrg	ystael: i've never tried it with midge, but i don't know why it wouldn't work...
14:00	dgrnbrg	lein1 or lein2?
14:00	raek	midje uses colored text output by default
14:00	Shambles_	uvtc: I see mention of new packaging tools, but nothing saying packages are going away. Sane package management supplied with the language is a pretty popular feature.
14:01	raek	so the color thing could be from midje
14:01	ystael	lein2.
14:01	uvtc	TimMc, yeah, here: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/8ec1a5fc5e5f1a2f#
14:01	raek	ystael: you use the 2.0.0-SNAPSHOT version of lein-midje?
14:01	ystael	raek: yes
14:02	dgrnbrg	ystael: i'm going to open an issue on guzheng to add a test for midje
14:03	dgrnbrg	if you'd like to follow it: https://github.com/dgrnbrg/lein-guzheng/issues/2
14:04	Shambles_	dgrnbrg: Do you have plans for using guzheng?
14:04	ystael	dgrnbrg: cool, thanks much
14:04	TimMc	uvtc: Hmm, that's not so bad. And I just found that I can find out about Lein in 2 clicks from the main clojure.org page, although it should only be one click.
14:05	ystael	stack trace is at https://gist.github.com/2a56d48f9e771c6d3b64
14:05	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: what do you mean? I wrote it for giving test coverage info, and i use it in my projects
14:05	Shambles_	dgrnbrg: I wasn't sure if you had a particular use in mind. I can think of something to use it for, but that wasn't it, though that's a good use too.
14:06	dgrnbrg	Shambles_: guzheng is a tool for writing clojure transformations by hooking into the loader
14:06	Shambles_	dgrnbrg: I was thinking about something like http://groups.csail.mit.edu/pag/daikon/
14:06	dgrnbrg	i wrote a branch coverage analyzer for it, and a lein plugin to use it
14:06	uvtc	There should be a note at the top of http://clojure.org/downloads saying, "though, for regular use, install [Leiningen] and have it take care of getting Clojure for you".
14:06	TimMc	Oof, that too.
14:07	Shambles_	uvtc: Yes. What you just said would have avoided a lot of difficulty on my part.
14:07	Wild_Cat	I gotta admit leiningen is fairly awesome.
14:07	Shambles_	What uvtc said is exactly what's needed.
14:07	technomancy	Shambles_: maybe if you make some noise on the clojure mailing list it would help
14:07	dgrnbrg	i suppose it'd be doable to do so, but i'm probably going to stick with the branch analysis--it's all i need, and i have other projects
14:07	Wild_Cat	compared to most languages' built-in dependency managers/build utilities, it's the only one that comes close to maven.
14:07	cmajor7	is there a way to get both {:published "2008-02-13" :title "clojure is the best lisp yet"} in a single call to "xml->" from http://bit.ly/NnT3mE? e.g. I can easily get one as "(xml1-> books :entry :title text)"
14:09	Shambles_	technomancy: I'm still getting used to being able to do basic things in the language, and I tend to be both a bit uncomfortable on mailing lists and not real pleased with the mail volume. I could deal with it, but I'm not sure how much good I'd do at this point, especially since it sounds like the person in charge of the website doesn't care about the issue.
14:09	technomancy	part of the reason they don't care is probably that they don't understand the newcomer's perspective
14:10	uvtc	Will post that to the ML right now.
14:10	TimMc	Thanks, uvtc!
14:10	Shambles_	I can't really be the first one that's come here wondering what's up with the classpath mess, or how everything seems to require lein, or how installing anything before lein tends to not work very well (e.g. that Counterclockwise behavior I mentioned).
14:10	TimMc	Shambles_: You're not.
14:11	redwire	I've been there. I've been very frustrated sometimes about only being told "use lein" when my first install of clojure via aptitude didn't work well.
14:11	TimMc	I don't think anyone's arguing against you, there...
14:12	xclite	Shambles_: Those same thoughts annoyed me when I tried to dive in recently - been on the back burner since due to other priorities
14:13	Shambles_	Well, since I've battled through that on my own, and someone here (I now forget who, I think it was timvisher) helped me figure out why I couldn't launch a REPL in anything but 1.3.0... will I be able to build/install most anything with "leiin install", even if it doesn't come with instructions?
14:14	gtrak`	looks like the riddell guy took down his site finally
14:14	lazybot	The riddell.us tutorials are much more highly-ranked on Google than they deserve to be. They're old and way too complicated. If you're trying to install Clojure...don't! Instead, install Leiningen (https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/tree/stable) and let it manage Clojure for you.finally
14:14	Shambles_	For example, this: https://github.com/swannodette/delimc
14:15	raek	Shambles_: are you going to hack on the delimc code or just use it?
14:15	TimMc	Shambles_: lein install doesn't do what you think it does -- see `lein help install`
14:15	Shambles_	raek: I'd like to just use it, for now at least.
14:16	foxdonut	Shambles_: sorry if you've been having some trouble, and for my coming off negatively earlier. that wasn't cool and I apologize.
14:16	uvtc	TimMc, y/w!
14:16	raek	then you don't need to install anything. you add it to your :dependencies in your project.clj
14:17	Shambles_	foxdonut: I'm used to getting worse on other programming channels. I'd just decided I was either a jerk, and/or most programmers were, and you sort of have to grin and bear it to get the information you need. I've been pleasantly surprised on a few channels, though I haven't figured out why they're different from others.
14:17	raek	is "lein install" mostly used by library authors to try a library before publishing it
14:18	raek	*"lein install" is
14:18	Shambles_	raek: I see.
14:18	gtrak`	lein install is equivalent to mvn install, Shambles_ lein has a lot do with maven in java-land
14:18	foxdonut	Shambles_: we'll never be the worst as long as there is #hibernate ;-)
14:19	gtrak`	a lot to do*
14:19	Shambles_	I was basing that on this: Clone Seesaw from github. Fork if you like. Switch to the "develop" branch. In your Seesaw checkout, run lein install to build it In your project's project.clj file, change the Seesaw version to X.Y.Z-SNAPSHOT to match whatever's in Seesaw's project.clj. Run lein deps
14:19	Shambles_	So I thought it was for building. I still don't have much experience with it yet.
14:20	Shambles_	gtrak`: I know very, very little about Java. I'm more here for "a lisp with really good I/O support" than the Java aspect.
14:20	gtrak`	Shambles_: yea.. github pages might assume you already know how everything works
14:22	gtrak`	Shambles_: I hope you're ready to learn a little java :-D
14:23	gtrak`	a lot of things will make more sense that way
14:24	Shambles_	gtrak`: I got the impression I'd only need to know what to call in the standard library. I've used C++, so I doubt it'd be very difficult. I'd just rather not spend much time on it beyond the "what I need to know to call things" part.
14:25	gtrak`	gotcha, yes, it's much less soul-crushing than C++ but there's a lot to think about as well
14:26	TimMc	Shambles_: Clojure is not stand-alone -- you still ahve to live with some poor choices from Java-land. THe nice thing is that you get to build cleaner abstractions over them.
14:26	Shambles_	gtrak`: I like Lisp macros, but I hope to never have to deal with any code using template metaprogramming again, or preprocessor macros for that matter.
14:27	gtrak`	yes, gawd...
14:28	Shambles_	TimMc: I know about the "have to tell it when you want tail recursion" part, and that there's no restarts like in most Common Lisp (but you can add that back if you can get continuations going...). Is there anything else I should know about?
14:29	gtrak`	&(macroexpand '(let [[a b] [1 2]] [a b])) ; Shambles_ , wheeeeeeeeeeeee
14:29	lazybot	⇒ (let* [vec__8134 [1 2] a (clojure.core/nth vec__8134 0 nil) b (clojure.core/nth vec__8134 1 nil)] [a b])
14:29	Shambles_	Mostly it seems to be really hard to find any Lisp with pretty complete GUI and sound support, and Clojure should have that nailed for me.
14:29	TimMc	~pitfalls
14:29	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:29	borkdude	I don't like GUIs
14:29	TimMc	Oh, that was for something else, bad fn names.
14:32	gtrak`	Shambles_: you'll probably want to check out overtone and upshot at some point
14:33	Shambles_	TimMc: Bad function names due to Java? You mean worse than cadadaaadaadr ? ;)
14:34	TimMc	Shambles_: Nope, in Clojure! Look at the definitions of contains?, for instance.
14:34	TimMc	&(doc contains?)
14:34	lazybot	⇒ "([coll key]); Returns true if key is present in the given collection, otherwise returns false. Note that for numerically indexed collections like vectors and Java arrays, this tests if the numeric key is within the range of indexes. 'contains?' operates constan... https://www.refheap.com/paste/3277
14:35	Shambles_	TimMc: I guess you mostly see those in the macroexpansions?
14:37	TimMc	Shambles_: I wouldn't say that. Dunno if I've used it in my code, though.
14:37	TimMc	clojurebot: contains
14:37	clojurebot	contains is gotcha
14:37	TimMc	~gotchas
14:37	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:37	TimMc	~gotcha
14:37	clojurebot	gotcha is contains
14:37	TimMc	>_<
14:37	TimMc	gfredericks: Is this your fault? ^
14:41	Shambles_	Some of the weird names can be fun, at least. I approve of "uberjar". :P
14:42	nDuff	Hrm.
14:43	nDuff	It's a bit unfortunate that clojure.core.incubator shows up in package clojure.core -- in an OSGi context, it's expected that each package is provided by one and only one jar, and that doesn't apply here.
14:46	TimMc	nDuff: 1-1 package and jar? o.O
14:46	arrdem	does anyone here know a good tutorial on detecting and loading jars in Clojure?
14:46	nDuff	TimMc: n:1; each jar can provide multiple packages, but each package must be provided by only one jar.
14:47	TimMc	Oh, got it.
14:47	TimMc	So what's happening with incubator then?
14:48	nDuff	TimMc: since packages are mapped by directory structure, clojure/core/incubator.clj is part of the clojure.core package
14:48	nDuff	TimMc: ...and clojure.core, of course, is provided by Clojure itself.
14:49	Shambles_	uvtc: The Brief Beginner's Guide is nice.
14:49	uvtc	Shambles_, thanks. Share and enjoy. :)
14:50	TimMc	nDuff: Not getting it. The clojure.core.incubator package comes in as a separate jar from clojure.core, but is a subpackage, that's the issue?
14:50	nDuff	TimMc: That's the problem; it's not a subpackage inasmuch as OSGi is concerned.
14:50	nDuff	TimMc: ...so an OSGi loader tries to find clojure/core/incubator.clj in the primary Clojure bundle, ignoring the fact that a separate core-incubator bundle is installed.
14:51	TimMc	Why does it try to find it there? Prefix?
14:51	nDuff	TimMc: ...now, if it were clojure/core/incubator/.clj, this would be a non-issue...
14:52	nDuff	TimMc: the manifest for OSGi bundles specifies which packages (in the Java sense) that bundle provides. Only one bundle can be wired to a given package in a single context.
14:52	TimMc	Oh! I think I see. clojure/core/incubator.clj is a resource in clojure.core, whereas clojure.core.incubator.init (or whatever it is) is a class in the clojure.core.incubator package.
14:52	nDuff	Right!
14:55	nDuff	...given as clojure.osgi is already wrapping load-resource, it'd actually be pretty easy to modify it to also search clojure/core/incubator/.clj, but then I'd have to put together build infrastructure to create jars munged that way in the first place, and it seems a really ridiculously awful hack.
14:56	cmajor7	is this the best way to combine several seqs in a map with given keys (e.g. :title :published)? https://www.refheap.com/paste/3278
14:57	cmajor7	feels to verbose.. might have overlooked a known builtin
15:05	tbaldridge	Shambles_: I agree, I'd love to see better Clojure GUI support. The bad thing is, it's hard to do functional programming with GUIs
15:07	Shambles_	tbaldridge: Well, all of AWT and SWING should be accessible by Clojure out of the box, and then there's SWT. There's even wrappers like Seesaw. That's far better than most Lisps.
15:07	pandeiro	cmajor7: you could eliminate a pair of parens and brackets by using hash-map instead of zipmap, but that's all i got
15:08	tbaldridge	Agreed, but you still end up getting into more of a OOP situation than I would like
15:10	cmajor7	pandeiro: how would switch it to hash-map?
15:10	Shambles_	tbaldridge: As for functional GUI's, I'm not sure it's important. I don't think a lot of bugs exist because of mutable values within GUI's. It may be a bit of a PITA to hook everything up, though, and Cells is probably what you want there. There seems to be a dataflow DSL for Clojure named dgraph you could use to implement something like that.
15:10	pandeiro	cmajor7: (map #(hash-map :title %1 :date %2) titles dates)
15:11	TimMc	nDuff: So when you're running in an OSGi context (I hope "context" isn't jargon for anything surprising) Clojure tries to load a namespace clj file for on-the-fly compilation, and fails. Is that what's happening?
15:12	cmajor7	pandeiro: was has-mapping over %1 %2 together… makes sense => thx, it is indeed cleaner
15:12	nDuff	TimMc: correct.
15:23	solussd	I know this is vague, but I'm getting a classnotfoundexception in a namespace$function only when running via 'lein run', works fine in the repl. I can verify that the namespace and function exist and I'm not AOT compiling… any ideas?
15:24	solussd	further, I do not get the error when running 'lein test'
15:24	gtrak`	solussd: are you importing before requiring somewhere?
15:24	solussd	gtrak`: probably. :D
15:24	gtrak`	perhaps some records have not yet been code-gen'd
15:24	gtrak`	or protocols?
15:24	solussd	ill check
15:27	ibdknox	How do I change the context of macroexpansion? binding ns doesn't seem to do it
15:28	solussd	gtrak`: sadly, that doesn't seem to be it. :/
15:28	TimMc	ibdknox: Example?
15:29	ibdknox	TimMc: (binding [ns (create-ns 'woot)] (postwalk macroexpand-1 '(defmacro m [] `q)))
15:29	gtrak`	solussd: weird
15:30	TimMc	ibdknox: Where is postwalk again?
15:30	ibdknox	clojure.walk
15:31	ibdknox	no matter what I do that seems to always expand into (quote user/q)
15:31	amalloy	ibdknox: what would it mean to change the context?
15:32	amalloy	oh, no, of course you can't do that. syntax-quote happens at read time, before macroexpansion
15:32	ibdknox	ah
15:32	ibdknox	hm
15:32	TimMc	Ooh, that'll do it.
15:33	amalloy	(defmacro m [] (read-string "`q")) ;; lol?
15:33	ibdknox	lol
15:33	ibdknox	I wonder how that ends up working in a repl then
15:34	TimMc	&'`q ;; I think this would turn into '(syntax-quote q) in Scheme.
15:34	lazybot	⇒ (quote clojure.core/q)
15:34	amalloy	ibdknox: at the repl, ns is bound while reading
15:34	amalloy	,(binding [ns (create-ns 'woot)] (read-string "'q"))
15:34	clojurebot	(quote q)
15:34	amalloy	,(binding [ns (create-ns 'woot)] (read-string "`q"))
15:34	clojurebot	(quote woot/q)
15:35	ibdknox	got it
15:35	ibdknox	thanks :)
15:36	lancero	I'm trying to encode a string to base64 with this: http://pastebin.com/h29BuhEp
15:36	lancero	I get this error: clojure.lang.LineNumberingPushbackReader cannot be cast to java.io.InputStream
15:37	gtrak`	lancero: call input-stream on it?
15:37	amalloy	dnolen: so it's my understanding that negation is somehow "hard" in logic programming. is implication hard too, because P->Q is effectively ~P v (P ^ Q)?
15:42	lancero	gtrak`: not sure what you mean
15:42	gtrak`	lancero: actually, from looking at clojure.java.io, I suppose you can't
15:43	dnolen	amalloy: implication is easy, otherwise you would haven't logic programming at all. negation is hard.
15:43	dnolen	amalloy: tho I read a pretty interesting paper today about getting negation into CiaoProlog ...
15:44	amalloy	i was thinking a solver for http://rooms.jmpup.com/#manual would be a fun first logic program, but i'm hoping to find out whether it's impossibly ambitious first :)
15:44	cmajor7	is there a way to parse a section of XML selectively into a map? with "xml->" I can get to the end values/tags, for the "first", for "all", but am looking to get e.g. a 3rd (whole) section.
15:47	amalloy	there's negation, but it's all limited enough that i think i could get around it be explicitly specifying "x is true implies XYZ" and "x is false implies [the opposite of XYZ]"
16:02	gtrak`	lancero: there's this though: http://commons.apache.org/io/apidocs/org/apache/commons/io/input/ReaderInputStream.html
16:05	dnolen	amalloy: that looks like fun. sounds like a reasonable approach.
16:05	amalloy	thanks!
16:05	dnolen	amalloy: my Prolog chops are not that great - but my experience it that Prologists are fiendishly clever at getting Prolog to do interesting things.
16:05	amalloy	haha
16:07	dnolen	amalloy: which is to say there's probably a good approach - worth popping in the Prolog channel if you're looking for tips on approach. Also Stack Overflow hasn't been bad.
16:08	hiredman	there is a prolog irc channel?
16:08	dnolen	hiredman: yes, pretty friendly too if not very chatty.
16:08	amalloy	dnolen: are you saying that core.logic lacks some feature prolog has that would help with this and i should use prolog, or that prologgers would have good advice that applies equally to core.logic?
16:08	borkdude	hiredman if you give answers in that channel, they will ask the corresponding questions
16:08	dnolen	smart cookies in there that mostly get homework questions :P
16:09	dnolen	amalloy: they would give advice that could be readily applied to core.logic.
16:18	arrdem	what is the standard for writing and naming lein tests?
16:18	clojurebot	meh
16:20	TimMc	clojurebot: You're trouble.
16:20	clojurebot	I don't understand.
16:20	arrdem	clojurebot just hates me.
16:21	TimMc	arrdem: I've never heard of a naming convention for the individual deftests.
16:21	arrdem	TimMc: I just looked at some git repos to get an idea... seems that you use test/<packages>/test.clj
16:22	arrdem	that was all I was asking for.
16:22	hiredman	test/first-part-of-namespace/test/other/parts.clj
16:22	TimMc	Sort of. Namespace a.b.c is tested with a.b.test.c
16:22	hiredman	lein new will generate test/projectname/test/core.clj
16:23	TimMc	Anything other than putting test at the end.
16:23	arrdem	duely noted.
16:23	arrdem	and makes sense from a naming standpoint.
16:31	TimMc	It's a little irritating to work with when you want to rename namespaces (e.g. right after project setup), but not much trouble after that.
16:31	amalloy	TimMc: bash, find, and perl are your friends there
16:34	TimMc	merrr
17:10	nDuff	Hrm.
17:12	solussd	any ideas what might cause a NoClassDefFoundError only when skip-aot: true is set w/ leiningen? never get the error in the repl though. :/
17:13	TimMc	Are you defining any protocols, using gen-class, defrecord...
17:14	solussd	yes to protocols and defrecords. I made sure records are imported last in my ns macros at the top of each file…
17:14	solussd	i'm extending protocols in several places as well.
17:14	hiredman	have you restarted your repl recently?
17:14	solussd	yes, and I can reproduce on another system w/ a clean checkout of the repo
17:15	hiredman	how are you loading the code in to the repl?
17:15	hiredman	and how are you loading it when you get the exception
17:15	solussd	(require '[my.namespace :as blah]
17:15	solussd	)
17:15	solussd	(in the repl)
17:16	solussd	lein run -> access page via web browser that kicks off some code
17:16	solussd	it works with AOT enabled though..
17:16	solussd	but then I have all kinds of issues w/ clojurescript [but that's another story]
17:22	brehaut	PeregrinePDX2: do you know about https://github.com/Sagelt/Dungeon-World ?
17:23	brehaut	wrong channel sorry
17:24	solussd	brehaut: ha. didn't stop me from clicking the link and checking it out.
17:25	brehaut	solussd: incase its confusing, its a tabletop roleplaying game that happens to have its source in github
17:25	solussd	brehaut: yeah, i see that now-- I was at first confused by the lack of source-code.
17:54	Chiron_	Guys check this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11139041/better-ways-to-traverse-a-map-of-maps amalloy is amazing!!
17:56	Raynes	amalloy: Did you hear that? You're amazing and stuff.
17:57	Raynes	I think amalloy is less awesome than Chiron_ is overly excitable.
17:57	Raynes	Cocaine is bad for you, just fyi.
17:57	amalloy	clojure, man. clojure is the awesome thing
17:59	Chiron_	amalloy: Thanks :D I need a lot to learn this functional style . clojure is awesome but you too
18:13	TimMc	Chiron_: 'for is a pretty excellent macro to know, too.
18:15	Chiron_	but I really needed a lot of time to understand the snippets
18:15	Chiron_	extremely terse. imagining doing that with imperative language
18:34	gtrak`	dnolen: heather from baltimore betascape sent ktcoders an e-mail yesterday. She totally found you guys independently, I swear :-). We had a meeting yesterday and I laughed about it.
18:34	dnolen	gtrak`: haha, funny :)
18:35	gtrak`	i think she was looking around for microcontroller hackers
18:35	dnolen	gtrak`: yeah the other ktcoder Ted Hayes does a lot of that. Arduino & Raspberry Pi
18:37	gtrak`	well, it should be fun, but it's the sat/sun before strange-loop so I'll be having a busy few days
18:38	technomancy	who was in here asking about a step-by-step guide to building a clojure web app earlier?
18:39	beffbernard	How do you turn on debugger info for the reader?
19:31	zach_	Could anyone give me some advice on dynamically binding vars for the sake of testing? Here's what I'm currently trying to do (https://www.refheap.com/paste/3282), but it's erroring out because 'collection' was defined in a different context.
19:35	brehaut	zach_: you probably dont want dynamic vars for testing. theres function specifically for modifying a var for testing
19:35	zach_	brehaut: Okay, cool -- probably found in clojure.test?
19:35	brehaut	err
19:35	brehaut	i dont think so
19:35	brehaut	technomancy ussually pipes up with the answer
19:36	zach_	:)
19:36	technomancy	you mean with-redefs?
19:36	brehaut	thats what i mean!
19:37	brehaut	(inc technomancy)
19:37	lazybot	⇒ 25
19:37	zach_	technomancy: brehaut: Awesome! Thanks guys
19:37	brehaut	zach_: i dont know if it will fix your problem though
19:38	zach_	brehaut: It's a start. I'll come back complaining if it doesn't ;)
19:39	brehaut	zach_: it probably doesnt help that you were trying to bind 'collection' rather than 'd/collection'
19:40	brehaut	zach_: its also good style to slap earmuffs around any dynamic var you do create
19:40	brehaut	eg collection
19:43	technomancy	but don't make it dynamic just for testing purposes
19:44	RickInGA	technomancy: do you have a minute to help with a swarm coding setup question?
19:45	technomancy	sure
19:46	RickInGA	thanks… I have run the script and it says launch TERM=xterm-256color tmux
19:46	RickInGA	I do that, and it looks like it works, but when I ssh in, and try to attach, it says no seesions found
19:46	RickInGA	I am using a mac, if that makes a difference
19:47	technomancy	that should work
19:49	RickInGA	when I ssh in, I get a message telling me to run TERM=xterm256color tmux attach, whether I type that or just tmux attach, I just get no sessions
19:50	RickInGA	is there a way from within the host process I can confirm that a session is running?
19:51	technomancy	you can always grep through ps awx
19:53	RickInGA	ok, I can see that it is running. Do you know, is there someway I have to identify the session I want to attach to?
19:53	technomancy	once you've already attached, you can change sessions with C-z S
19:54	technomancy	I don't know about before you've attached
19:54	wkelly	tmux list-sessions
19:55	RickInGA	i wonder if I am getting a permissions problem… list-sessions worked in host window, not in remote
19:55	RickInGA	got 'failed to connect to server: connection refused"
19:55	zerokarmaleft	or `tmux ls` for short
19:55	technomancy	are you running the client and server as a different user?
19:56	technomancy	I would not recommend that for swarm coding
19:56	RickInGA	for server, I am running as 'swarm' that I got to with sudo -u swarm -i
19:56	RickInGA	for client, I am as me, then did ssh swarm@host
19:56	wkelly	the tty is likely owned by the original login user
19:56	RickInGA	so in both windows, I should be running as swarm
19:57	wkelly	ssh in directly as swarm and start a tmux session, and your life will be good
19:57	technomancy	odd that it would make a difference, but yeah I always SSH in
19:57	RickInGA	ah, you are saying do both 'remotely' I will try it.
19:59	RickInGA	ok, cool, now I am in same sesson
19:59	RickInGA	hmmm, typing 'emacs' at that point was apparently not the right thing to do
20:00	technomancy	what? typing emacs is always the right thing to do
20:00	aperiodic	yeah, you should try 'vim'
20:00	RickInGA	I got some error, FAILED TO establish the default connection to the Window Server
20:01	RickInGA	my emacs icon is bouncing, but I can't switch to it
20:01	RickInGA	my terminals are blocked
20:01	technomancy	oh, maybe a macintoshy issue
20:01	aperiodic	well, you'll need to use a terminal version of emacs
20:01	technomancy	try emacs -nw
20:01	y3di	is anyone else getting spammy pms?
20:05	RickInGA	wow, cant kill emacs… rebooting....
20:05	technomancy	o_O
20:05	brehaut	maybe emacs has expanded to replace his OS
20:05	RickInGA	that wouldn't be all bad :)
20:06	brehaut	id hoped it would happen after they got multithreading sorted
20:06	gtrak`	brehaut: you mean like python?
20:06	brehaut	gtrak`: i most assuredly do not ;)
20:07	technomancy	brehaut: apparently there's a library floating around that does async futures in a subprocess
20:07	technomancy	only 0.3s overhead
20:07	brehaut	technomancy: for emacs or python?
20:07	technomancy	emacs
20:08	brehaut	thats kind of amazing
20:08	gtrak`	i think generally it's easier to do threads upfront than tack it on later
20:09	brehaut	gtrak`: yeah that would be my though too
20:09	gtrak`	hey look guys, now we're 'multi-threaded'! awesome, huh? nope
20:09	technomancy	brehaut: what's amazing is it's 100% elisp and can send closures to subprocess
20:10	brehaut	technomancy: that is actually amazing
20:10	technomancy	elisp has serializable-fn built-in
20:10	brehaut	nice!
20:10	technomancy	even works with byte-compiled defuns
20:10	RickInGA	Thanks guys for helping me get this running. 2 key points were to even have the 'host' ssh in to swarm and then emacs -nw
20:10	brehaut	for some reason i think even erlang doesnt have that?
20:10	technomancy	oh snap; take that erlang
20:11	RickInGA	And there will be swarm coding happening in Atlanta on monday night!
20:11	technomancy	RickInGA: I hope to put together a better blog post on doing your own swarming
20:11	gtrak`	RickInGA: you met my buddies Jesse Bickel or Eric Caspary down there?
20:12	gtrak`	the atlanta clojure?
20:13	gtrak`	I used to go to GaTech, but I didn't know of clojure then :-/
20:13	RickInGA	gtrak`: yep, met Jesse at the first meeting (monday is the 2nd) and I have met Eric a few times now
20:13	gtrak`	awesome! they're both really cool
20:14	gtrak`	I roomed with Jesse
20:14	RickInGA	technomancy: my plan was to get this working, and then in the next week or so write some instructions, and then submit them to you to either approve before I posted it somewhere, or post yourself if you would rather
20:15	gtrak`	I was talking to another GT grad I knew at conj about heightened GT crime rates, and Eric's ears perked up, that's how I met him, haha
20:15	technomancy	RickInGA: are you building off anything in particular, or just my notes from my talk?
20:16	RickInGA	technomancy: notes from your talk, the seajure repository and a respoitory called nuclearsandwich/swarming, which is a fork from seajure
20:17	technomancy	thanks; I'll take a look at that
20:18	nuclearsandwich	hey RickInGA I started that on a plane. Still lots of work to do with it, I got distracted
20:18	RickInGA	everything takes me a little longer because I am clueless on osx… for example, the instruction 'use this key' for the encryption, took me about 20 min :)
20:19	RickInGA	nuclearsandwich: that gave me some guidence, but neither your script would work for me initially, because I was running emacs 23, without package manager… switched to the seajure one at that point, because it seemed to have fewer moving parts
20:20	RickInGA	after upgrading to emacs 24.1, of course :)
20:20	technomancy	yeah, 23 screwed up a few people at the conference; I hadn't even thought of it
20:21	goodieboy	I have a question about function argument pre-conditions. It feels redundant to define a bunch of pre-conditions, and then check arguments before calling the function. Is it better to not check the args when calling the function, but wrap in a try/catch for assertion errors? OR, always check the args before calling?
20:22	RickInGA	technomancy I was running 23 at the conference, but I was not a host
20:22	nuclearsandwich	RickInGA: yeah, I was trying to modularize the swarming stuff a little bit to make it easier to use non-emacs editors
20:25	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: dude... I just got a siphon pot =D
20:26	RickInGA	thanks again for the help…. brain fried from talking to recruiters all day shudder
20:26	RickInGA	see you guys next time
20:26	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: niiiiice have you tested it out yet?
20:27	brehaut	technomancy: aeropresses are available in new zealand again :D
20:27	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: I'm still figuring it out. seems like it has a lot of ... variables involved.
20:28	technomancy	brehaut: sweet
20:28	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: I haven't really made a cup I'm happy with yet
20:28	zerokarmaleft	technomancy: do you order beans online?
20:29	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: for sure, I've pretty much fallen back on the simpler methods. French Press and chemex
20:29	technomancy	zerokarmaleft: no, I pick them up from local roasters when I work out of their shops.
20:29	nuclearsandwich	and espresso when I'm at the office
20:29	technomancy	nuclearsandwich: yeah, the siphon is definitely more work. lots of fun to watch though.
20:29	nuclearsandwich	but espresso is only simple because I worked at it every day for five years
20:29	technomancy	heh
20:29	nuclearsandwich	technomancy: put your siphon in a window and be a mad coffee scientist!
20:30	technomancy	yessss
20:30	goodieboy	I guess I'm generally wondering how useful pre-conditions are to most clojure programmers? Are ya'll using them? When to use them?
20:30	nuclearsandwich	you also need a bright white lab coat which will, in time, turn brown with coffee spills
20:31	technomancy	goodieboy: I think people are still figuring out how they fit into the big picture
20:31	nuclearsandwich	time to hit the train. technomancy sometime soon I want to pick your brain about using mosh insecurely instead of having an insecure ssh pair for swarming
20:31	amalloy	goodieboy: i don't
20:32	technomancy	yeah
20:32	brehaut	technomancy: do you play the portal theme while making siphon ?
20:32	technomancy	heh; next time
20:32	goodieboy	interesting ok, glad I'm not alone in trying to figure out where/when they fit in
20:37	djur	Would anyone be up for looking at a little Clojure program I wrote and giving me some tips on how to make it more idiomatic?
20:38	gtrak`	djur: sure I can spare a couple mins
20:39	djur	gtrak`: Thanks! The code is here: https://github.com/mboeh/mass-download
20:39	djur	gtrak`: And my rationale is halfway down through here: http://mboeh.com/2012/06/21/development-notes.html
20:40	gtrak`	idiom 1: write tests :-)
20:41	djur	gtrak`: I ended up approaching it by passing a lot of functions as callbacks, but I feel like it would be easier and clearer with seqs... but I'm not sure how to apply them here
20:41	djur	I'm not even sure how to test this
20:42	djur	I literally just picked up Programming Clojure yesterday and banged this out based on an existing chunk of code I have
20:42	gtrak`	umm, if you use an editor that handles indentation and closing-parentheses for you, you won't have to manually do them. Doing the unnesting like curly-brace langs is bad.
20:42	djur	OK, good to know. I'm not doing them manually
20:42	gtrak`	like this: (dorun (map action (line-seq rdr)))))))
20:42	wmealing_	which reminds me, i must find rainbow braces that look clear for emacs.
20:42	wmealing_	not sure if current theme or just font that sucks.
20:43	steveo_	Does ring have websockets support? I've seen lots of talk about adding it but I don't know what the results of those threads were.
20:43	djur	I figured out I was using the wrong paren style by the time I wrote the blog post, but haven't amended the original code yet
20:44	weavejester_	steveo_: Ring is a HTTP abstraction, and websockets are a separate protocol with very different properties. There are libraries like Aleph that can cater to both, however.
20:44	gtrak`	djur: you can just use slurp on the file to get a string, or make-reader to make a reader
20:45	gtrak`	java.io/make-reader
20:46	gtrak`	urls-from-file is misleading, it's doing too much and isn't named right. I'd call it map-on-urls or something
20:46	steveo_	yeah aleph looks cool, I'll check it out, thanks
20:47	djur	I feel like I should be able to dispense with urls-from-file entirely and work directly with line-seq instead -- have that argument being a seq of URLs instead of a function which generates them
20:47	gtrak`	sure
20:48	gtrak`	in general, the callback-style is hard to follow
20:49	gtrak`	if you want asynchrony, consider agents or futures
20:49	djur	My next goal is to make it download the files in parallel, though, and I'm not clear if there's a way to have multiple threads pulling work off a seq
20:50	gtrak`	agents or futures do that
20:50	gtrak`	maybe switch to push instead of pull
20:51	djur	I know how I'd implement this with a blocking queue and a big mess of mutable state. I'm not sure how to keep track of the result of a lot of little jobs without maintaining a lot of state
20:51	gtrak`	if you want to compose functions and handlers, consider just using lazy seqs instead of doing it yourself
20:52	gtrak`	ie... (defn a [args handler]) is kinda the same as (map handler (map a urls)) or (map #(comp handler a) urls)
20:52	gtrak`	oops... forget the #
20:53	gtrak`	(map (comp handler a))
20:53	djur	Great, I thought there'd be something like that
20:53	gtrak`	if it's just a tail recursion anyway, it's equivalent
20:54	gtrak`	that'll get it down to like 5 lines...
20:54	gtrak`	:-)
20:55	djur	Thanks! I'll go hack on that for a while. I appreciate the help!
20:55	gtrak`	no problem
22:58	metajack	is there something like xml-seq or xml/parse that doesn't require the whole input in memory at once? I basically wan to handle top level children individually.
22:58	metajack	(aside from using SAX in java directly)
23:03	benolee	coming from ruby, and having no background with java, how best to learn the java stdlib for interop?
23:06	cmajor7	metajack: in case you worry about the XML file size, there is "lazy-xml" (http://bit.ly/LkuIzy), as well as "clojure.data.xml" (http://bit.ly/LkuWH0) which is its successor
23:07	metajack	benolee: I make judicious use of "!java foo" search modifies at DuckDuckGo for that. It generally works pretty well.
23:09	metajack	cmajor7: thanks!
23:10	cmajor7	sure