#clojure – 2012-06-12

2012-06-12

00:15	alandipert	alex_baranosky: topo sort them maybe?
00:16	alex_baranosky	Hmmm… what is topo sort?
00:16	alex_baranosky	https://gist.github.com/1263783 ??
00:16	lazybot	alex_baranosky: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
00:16	alandipert	alex_baranosky: it's a way to sort directed graphs, which maps kinda are
00:17	alandipert	alex_baranosky: aka topological sort
00:17	scottj	I like http://github.com/GeorgeJahad/difform
00:19	alandipert	alex_baranosky: yup that's one way, the the problem with converting to diff is that it's line oriented, interesting to think about a conversion that compensates for this
00:19	alex_baranosky	what's the prolem with just printing ?
00:20	alandipert	i think it depends on what you're interested in seeing in your diffs
00:20	alandipert	like if the maps are different sizes by one, when printed the offset will make the diff massive
00:22	alandipert	alex_baranosky: there is stuff like http://www.altova.com/diffdog/xml-diff.html for structural XML diff, maybe you could XML and see your maps in their viewer
00:23	alandipert	alex_baranosky: bedtime but sounds like cool project, hit me up if i can help
00:23	alex_baranosky	will do. Take it easy
00:28	kwertii	Are there any VC funds or angels who specialize in Lisp-based startups? It seems like, if it's true that it gives you a huge competitive advantage (as Paul Graham has written extensively), there ought to be some funding sources somewhere that specialize in Lisp.
00:30	scottj	kwertii: there aren't, and it doesn't.
00:30	mthvedt	might have been true in 1995
00:30	scottj	re VCs, as for angels who knows.
00:31	kwertii	It occurred to me that Graham's own fund, Y Combinator, has no particular Lisp bias.
00:31	kwertii	*even
00:31	scottj	kwertii: the thing is a startup is so many things other than what language you happen to use that any benefit there is drowned out by all the other factors.
00:31	kwertii	Makes sense
00:31	kreig1	language choice is really not that big a factor
00:32	scottj	kwertii: even once-big-time lisp fans like peter norvig have said that other factors overshadow language choice
00:32	kreig1	certainly not one I would be putting any emphasis on when putting together an investment portfolio
00:32	kwertii	It certainly seems to be far more popular to crank things out in Ruby or PHP
00:32	technomancy	scottj: well peter norvig has to weigh staffing a lot more heavily than a startup would
00:33	kwertii	much larger talent pool to draw from, makes hiring and firing easy
00:33	kwertii	but if a team is "good" at all the other factors anyway (whatever "good" means), then it stands to reason that they might benefit from using Lisp
00:34	scottj	technomancy: true, but I seem to remember him not talking about this re staffing but saying that he'd underestimated the value of powerful tools like IDEs
00:34	kwertii	however, I expect that that's a sufficiently rare circumstance so as to make it impossible to build a whole portfolio around it
00:35	technomancy	scottj: I think that also ties into having a huge company
00:35	kwertii	A place like Google that needs to hire by the thousands can't really afford to build out in a less popular language, because there just aren't that many developers who can develop in it
00:36	scottj	here's the quote I misremembered: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1803815
00:36	kwertii	languages with a low barrier to entry (Ruby, PHP) create a self-perpetuating cycle of having a large developer base, and then more companies use them because of that talent pool, etc.
00:37	ro_st	this looks like a fascinating conversation. i'm sorry i missed the start of it
00:38	kwertii	ro_st: the original question was, are there any VC firms or angels that specialize in Lisp, if indeed it gives you a competitive advantage as Paul Graham has written extensively. And no, there don't seem to be, so it must not give you such a huge advantage.
00:38	kwertii	ro_st: or at least, any advantage Lisp gives is drowned out among the many other factors
00:39	ro_st	i see. makes sense. are there vcs that specialise in any programming language?
00:40	kovasb	solving a market need seems like a much more important objective for them
00:40	kwertii	re: Norvig quote - I agree; I'd certainly rather have excellent developers working in Visual Basic than terrible developers working in Lisp
00:40	kwertii	(I'd have them write a Lisp interpreter first :)
00:40	ro_st	i should think they'd specialise as far as a specific business model; as that's where their expertise would help
00:40	kovasb	starting with technology is not the way to make money
00:40	kwertii	kovasb: yeah, the business side doesn't really care what tech you use
00:41	ro_st	as long as you remain competitive
00:41	ro_st	which was part of PG's point
00:41	ro_st	lisp made them ultra-competitive
00:41	kwertii	as long as people keep paying you. there are banks today still running COBOL, and major science projects in academia still using FORTRAN
00:42	ro_st	banks are hardly the sort to use edge technologies :-)
00:42	ro_st	with good reason!
00:42	kwertii	ro_st: that's what I was getting at -- if Graham was right, if Lisp per se actually makes you ultra-competitive, there ought to be a specialized VC funding segment for it, but there isn't
00:42	kovasb	i think moments like the birth of the internet are a unique time when tech can give u the edge
00:42	kovasb	mature stacks in shitty languages were not available yet
00:43	kovasb	so its more of a level playing field
00:43	ro_st	kwertii: that makes the investment potential for such a company far too small
00:43	scottj	kovasb: well, and it was harvard phds who had written books about their languages vs average joe
00:43	kovasb	same thing in e.g. big data now
00:43	kwertii	ro_st: I think the factors that make one a great Lisp programmer don't correlate much with the factors that make one a good startup founder
00:43	TheBusby	good VC's invest in good people, and hopefully good ideas. I doubt the tech stack is an issue until acquisition time
00:43	ro_st	i'm in SA. we don't have tech-only VCs here. you're talking about a tech VC that demonstrates an incredibly high tech awareness
00:44	kovasb	scottj: right but nowadays doing via web in some ruby on rails thing would be trivial
00:44	ro_st	sa, south africa
00:44	kwertii	TheBusby: even then, they'll just buy it and rewrite it if they want it - Graham's ViaWeb got rewritten in C++ when Yahoo couldn't figure out his Lisp code
00:44	TheBusby	kwertii: the lisp may turn away potential purchasers though
00:44	technomancy	we had a symbolics guy invest in Sonian who was kind of amused to see lisp making a comeback
00:45	technomancy	ex-symbolics obviously
00:45	TheBusby	didn't someone just write a blog talking about their experiences porting a hotel booking application from Ruby to Lisp and then defending their decision during an acquisition?
00:45	kwertii	technomancy: I first heard about Clojure from a guy on the CL committee during a discussion on why CL languished in obscurity. he was very pleased that it seemed to be fixing all the baggage and political issues with CL
00:46	technomancy	TheBusby: there's also a good paper from the Xen authors on the same situation with OCaml
00:46	scottj	TheBusby: not sure the ref, but there is a clojure app for hotel bookings
00:47	technomancy	kwertii: that's better than many CLers on IRC who seem to be horrified that a non-CL lisp could take off.
00:47	kwertii	there's Reddit, too; originally written in Lisp (CL?) and then converted to Python. that was a YC company, too
00:47	kovasb	theres lots of startups using clojure
00:47	kwertii	technomancy: yep. the other CL people were definitely less impressed
00:47	TheBusby	ahh here is the link, http://www.colinsteele.org/post/23103789647/against-the-grain-aws-clojure-startup
00:48	kovasb	actually PG just posted to the yc founders list, they got a discount on the clojure/core roadshow training
00:49	TheBusby	now for a dumb clojure question, is there a simple way to generate the following ([0 10] [11 20] [21 30] [31 40] [41 50] [51 55]) for N (where in this case N is 55)
00:50	hiredman	yes
00:50	hiredman	several
00:51	TheBusby	hiredman: yes, embarassing question but what's the simple idiomatic performant method?
00:53	kovasb	TheBusby: sounds cool. is there a github? :)
00:53	TheBusby	kovasb: not yet, this is for work so I'd need to pursue a public release when I'm done :(
00:54	kovasb	so do you load a big chunk into memory and then run the reducer?
00:54	hiredman	you know you can get a mmap'ed byte buffer on a file via java nio?
00:54	TheBusby	I have multiple apps, in multiple languages mmap'ing the same file
00:54	TheBusby	and I haven't heard many good things about nio...
00:55	hiredman	the lest error prone way to do that kind of thing is something like (map (juxt first last) (partition-all chunk-size (range size)))
00:55	hiredman	least
00:55	hiredman	(the cleariest, most expressive of intent, least likely to screw up)
00:56	hiredman	TheBusby: so?
00:56	hiredman	TheBusby: maybe you should read up on it then
00:56	TheBusby	hiredman: that takes 3.4 seconds on my box
00:57	hiredman	http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/nio/channels/FileChannel.html#map%28java.nio.channels.FileChannel.MapMode,%20long,%20long%29
00:57	TheBusby	hiredman: regarding java's nio I did do some initial testing, and am using java.nio.ByteBuffer to wrap JNI stuff
00:57	hiredman	shrug, carry on then
00:58	TheBusby	hiredman: yeah, there are a number of other factors as well which lead the JNI route. :(
00:59	TheBusby	hiredman: I was doing the above with range earlier, but since that has to iterate through all N elements it becomes slow as N gets into the millions
01:00	hiredman	TheBusby: the less apparent approach is to do it via division, but that is easier to get wrong
01:00	amalloy	hiredman: why not addition?
01:01	hiredman	if you really want to do it fast you should avoid the seq all together
01:01	hiredman	amalloy: divsion + addition
01:01	hiredman	and you have to deal with the remainder
01:01	TheBusby	the chunk-size will usually be rather larger (typically less than 10 chunks), but N can be in the billions
01:02	xeqi	&((fn [x] (map vector (conj (iterate (partial + 10) 11) 0) (concat (take-while (partial >= x) (iterate (partial + 10) 10)) [x]))) 55)
01:02	lazybot	⇒ ([0 10] [11 20] [21 30] [31 40] [41 50] [51 55])
01:05	TheBusby	xeqi: thank you!
01:13	scottj	&((fn [x] (map vector (concat [0] (range 11 (inc x) 10)) (concat (range 10 x 10) [x]))) 55)
01:13	lazybot	⇒ ([0 10] [11 20] [21 30] [31 40] [41 50] [51 55])
01:14	xeqi	thanks, I forget range can take a step
01:15	TheBusby	using this now, (fn [n chunk-size] (let [[x & xs] (partition 2 1 [n] (range 0 n chunk-size))] (conj (map (fn [[x y]] [(inc x) y]) xs) (clojure.core/vec x))))
01:15	scottj	xeqi: your solution shows more skill
01:15	sayyestolife	When I comment in the code that is out-commented in this http://pastebin.com/AnhG1BKK, the function just waits. How come?
01:15	TheBusby	scottj: definitely
02:10	tomoj	suppose for some pairs of values of a type in cljs, equality cannot be determined synchronously. you can't sensibly use = on values of this type, then, correct?
02:12	tomoj	of course not
02:22	amalloy	tomoj: what kind of type would that be?
02:24	tomoj	say an IPending/IDeref
02:25	tomoj	a promise
02:25	tomoj	where the desired equality compares the eventual value
02:25	tomoj	but IDeref can't block in cljs
02:26	tomoj	but it can just be (fmap =)
02:28	amalloy	tomoj: i don't think that's a correct "desired equality"
02:28	amalloy	which i guess is the same as your conclusion, that you can't use = on them
02:29	francis	I keep getting a null pointer exception when to use a function I've defined in a diffrent namespace. I belive that the problem is arising because I have not correcly loaded the namespace. Does this seem like a reasonable hypotheis?
02:29	amalloy	francis: reasonable, but not likely
02:30	amalloy	you'd usually get a different exception, like "what the hell is this function you're calling"
02:30	tomoj	amalloy: well, why not in clojure? e.g. (= (future 1) (future 1))
02:30	amalloy	&(= (future 1) (future 1))
02:30	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
02:30	amalloy	,(= (future 1) (future 1))
02:30	clojurebot	false
02:31	amalloy	whew
02:31	tomoj	why _not_ have that be equality?
02:32	tomoj	we have identical? if we want that
02:33	tomoj	hmm
02:33	amalloy	because you want to be able to store blocking things in (eg) hashmaps
02:33	tomoj	ah
02:33	hiredman	amalloy: well, you can store them just fine
02:33	hiredman	and I would look askance at a scheme that involved using them as keys
02:33	amalloy	sure, i meant as keys
02:34	hiredman	more likely might be sets
02:34	amalloy	hiredman: why not? ((memoize identity) (delay)) needs to store [(delay)] as a key
02:36	hiredman	because once you've started using references as keys you've given up computing with values completely, maps are no longer functions of values
02:37	amalloy	i agree it's a bad thing to do on purpose
02:37	tomoj	couldn't you somewhat analogously argue that lazy seqs shouldn't implement equality because you might want to ((memoize identity) a-lazy-seq)?
02:37	amalloy	but it's not a fundamental error, and things like memoize will lead to it happening accidentally
02:37	amalloy	tomoj: good point. perhaps my argument is no good
02:43	Sgeo_	You know what would be nice? Not having NullPointerExceptions
02:43	Sgeo_	Just making them things that don't happen.
02:43	Sgeo_	>.>
02:48	spjt	You can't not have nothing.
02:49	KIMAvcrp	Sgeo_: like in haskell
02:49	Sgeo_	KIMAvcrp, yes
02:49	Sgeo_	MUAHAHA
02:49	amalloy	no instance found is way better, amirite?
02:50	amalloy	spjt: why not?
02:50	Sgeo_	amalloy, you mean the compiler-time error?
02:50	Sgeo_	Yes
02:50	Sgeo_	Because it's a compile-time error
02:50	KIMAvcrp	the problem with nullpointer is that you don't have to check for them they can be in everything
02:50	spjt	Sgeo_: Because you can't have everything-is.
02:50	amalloy	well then...whatever one happens when you call (tail [])
02:50	amalloy	for incomplete functions
02:50	Sgeo_	amalloy, tail shouldn't exist
02:51	KIMAvcrp	if you use sth like maybe monad you dave to explicitly check for nothing
02:51	Sgeo_	And incomplete functions shouldn't be written.
02:51	Sgeo_	(To the maximum extent avoidable)
02:51	amalloy	shrug
02:51	spjt	neither should functions that cause nullpointer exceptions :)
02:51	amalloy	i like haskell and its type system, don't get me wrong
02:51	amalloy	but if every language were the same, what would be the point?
02:51	Sgeo_	spjt, that's harder to avoid
02:52	Sgeo_	spjt, since every variable can take a null value (at least, in most languages)
02:52	Sgeo_	Languages that have nulls like that, I mean
02:55	amalloy	$heval tail []
02:55	lazybot	⇒ *Exception: Prelude.tail: empty list
02:57	Sgeo_	$heval let safeTail (_:xs) = Just xs; safeTail [] = Nothing in safeTail []
02:57	lazybot	⇒ Nothing
02:58	Sgeo_	$heval drop 1 []
02:58	lazybot	⇒ []
02:58	Sgeo_	$heval let safeTail = drop 1 in safeTail []
02:58	lazybot	⇒ []
03:23	ro_st	anyone using the bishop library? https://github.com/tnr-global/bishop
03:23	ro_st	i'm trying to figure out how to write tests for it
03:24	ro_st	ah i had to include :request-method
03:31	wmealing_	what is the closest thing to django templating for clojure ?
03:34	michaelr`	wmealing_: i don't know about django templating
03:34	michaelr`	but i used StringTemplate
03:34	michaelr`	and it's pretty cool
03:35	wmealing_	its a pretty basic template language
03:36	michaelr`	yup, on porpuse
03:36	michaelr`	this encforces the separation of view and logic
03:36	wmealing_	ive seen my share of php, i completely get why.
03:49	wmealing_	michaelr`, yeah i think string template is going to work for me.
03:49	wmealing_	thanks for the pointer
03:50	ro_st	how do i deal with a java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.mortbay.log.Logger issue when trying to run midje?
03:50	ro_st	i certainly didn't ask for this class anywhere in my own code
03:51	wmealing_	i imagine that is part of jetty
03:51	wmealing_	which jvm are you running ?
03:51	ro_st	1.6.0_31
03:52	ro_st	Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_31-b04-415-11M3635)
03:53	ro_st	it looks like it's ring-serve's fault
03:53	ro_st	lein/lein2 deps isn't pulling it down, however
03:53	ro_st	argh. i hate issues like this :-(
03:55	ro_st	so now i have to choose between being able to test with midje or being able to run a ring server from within my slime repl
03:55	ro_st	-sigh-
03:57	ro_st	sometimes, it really feels like i'm the only one trying to use the combination of tools i use, although i'm using what appears to be the tools used by the majority
03:58	michaelr`	there is also the silent majority :)
03:58	wmealing_	i feel your pain
03:58	wmealing_	i was having all kinds off no-fun with midje --lazytest
03:58	wmealing_	s/soff/of/g
03:59	ro_st	so. how do i get lein to fetch org.mortbay.log.Logger?
03:59	ro_st	here's the culprit: https://github.com/weavejester/ring-serve/blob/master/src/ring/util/serve.clj line 4
04:01	ro_st	i already have all the deps that ring-serve does
04:03	ro_st	wmealing_: did you come right with midje?
04:04	wmealing_	eventually
04:05	wmealing_	i'm just thinking out loud here
04:05	ro_st	the reason midje is getting ring-serve is because ring-serve doesn't work when it's only in dev-deps
04:05	wmealing_	you may be able to get aroun dit by adding it to your projects.clj
04:05	wmealing_	i see
04:05	Sgeo_	Gah
04:06	Sgeo_	I saw a recent version of Pharo recently, and it mentioned something called rings, so now when I see rings in here I get confused
04:06	ro_st	actually, that's not true, i take that back. ring-serve is only in dev-deps. along with midje
04:07	cljnewb02345	dumb question: will apple release a 17" mbp with retina display?
04:07	ro_st	yes, but not right away
04:07	ro_st	wild guess
04:07	cljnewb02345	oh
04:07	cljnewb02345	here's what I don't get
04:07	cljnewb02345	other lcds can't even ship without dead pixels
04:07	Sgeo_	I have a feeling that the two rings are completely unrelated
04:07	cljnewb02345	how does amazon get retina display w/o dead pixel
04:08	cljnewb02345	s/amazon/apple
04:08	wmealing_	cljnewb02345, order in the millions.
04:08	wmealing_	have each display checked by a human, and machine
04:12	ro_st	argh. this is ridiculous!
04:12	Sgeo_	I have a vague idea of what Pharo rings are
04:12	Sgeo_	What are rings in Clojure?
04:13	ro_st	ring is a wrapper for http
04:13	ro_st	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring
04:14	Sgeo_	Something completely different, then.
04:14	Sgeo_	Wasn't expecting similarities
04:14	ro_st	yup
04:19	ro_st	how do i bind the whole body of a ring request? in this case the request POSTs a json blob. i want to destructure that whole blob in the route, if possible
04:20	ro_st	this is a compojure question
04:24	ifesdjeen	ro_st: mapping your request to body is not the best approach, try matching on URI and do additional sub-routing withing
04:24	ifesdjeen	*within
04:25	ro_st	i have (POST "/scores" [] (do-stuff …))
04:25	ro_st	i want to pass the entire post body to do-stuff
04:25	ifesdjeen	you have an access to request
04:25	ifesdjeen	so just retrieve body from (:body request)
04:26	ro_st	within do-stuff itself? can i not destructure it in the route def so that the do-stuff function is not ring-dependent?
04:27	ro_st	ah! just found this on the web: (POST "/scores" {body :body} (do-stuff body))
04:27	ifesdjeen	ah :D now I see what you have meant
04:27	ifesdjeen	I thought you want to destructure based on body contents :/
04:28	ro_st	sorry that i wasn't clear :-) the posted body in this case will be a json blob, which i'll hand off to cheshire
04:28	ifesdjeen	cool
04:31	Sgeo_	Is clojure-koans good?
04:31	ro_st	i think so
04:31	francis	does anyone know what the library equivilent for clojure.contrib.str-utils is? I'm working through Manning's Clojure in Action book and I need some of the functions that it has.
04:31	ro_st	i got pretty far. haven't finished yet. stuck at recursion :-)
04:32	francis	*had
04:33	Sgeo_	I just checked it out
04:33	Sgeo_	Their is-even? isn't tail recursi... oh, right
04:33	ifesdjeen	francis: most of them are in core.string now
04:33	francis	thanks
04:34	Sgeo_	There, there, Clojure. We know it's not your fault. It's that nasty JVM
04:34	ifesdjeen	francis: but if you want something more sophisticated, just find an old repo and port it from there ;) additional learning perk!
04:34	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: some say that 4clojure is good
04:35	Sgeo_	ifesdjeen, tried it, it doesn't teach what's needed inline >.>
04:35	francis	ifesdjeen: I'm hoping I don't have to do that - I would like to get this TDD/mock/stubs down tonight
04:35	Sgeo_	Have to go hunting for documentation
04:35	ifesdjeen	francis: sure sure. good luck on that one!
04:36	Sgeo_	Oh, hmm
04:37	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: i haven't tried them myself. i have an 'algorithm/logic puzzles', gives me enough headache
04:37	Sgeo_	ifesdjeen, ooh, sounds interesting
04:37	Sgeo_	But I should really get a better grasp of basic Clojure first, probably.
04:38	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: if want to get to java interop, you can check out https://speakerdeck.com/u/ifesdjeen/p/java-interop
04:38	ro_st	Sgeo_: clojurebook.com and joyofclojure.com. both excellent books. can't recommend them both enough.
04:38	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: actually it would get you started with most of clojure concepts, like reify, proxy, defrecord, deftype, function calls, destructuring etc
04:38	Sgeo_	ifesdjeen, want to avoid Java interop for as long as possible
04:39	Sgeo_	I think my interest in Clojure has to do with everything BUT that lol
04:39	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: well, most of java interop concepts are very clojuric. for example protocols, they just happen to be good fit for interop, but they let you do polymorphism in a 'new' way
04:40	Sgeo_	At some point
04:40	ifesdjeen	Sgeo_: what's Lenses (for uneducated part of the crowd, like me)
04:41	ifesdjeen	ah
04:41	amalloy	ifesdjeen: no way. protocols are a compromise with the jvm - if multimethods could be as fast, protocols wouldn't exist
04:42	ifesdjeen	amalloy: well, as everyone says, protocols cover 90% of what multimethods do
04:42	amalloy	sure
04:42	amalloy	but to say that they "happen" to fit well with interop is misleading. that's the exact reason they exist
04:42	ifesdjeen	they're easier to understand, stuff
04:42	ifesdjeen	right
04:42	ifesdjeen	thanks amalloy
04:44	Sgeo_	What's #'
04:44	Sgeo_	?
04:44	Raynes	&(var 'println)
04:44	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
04:44	Raynes	blue
04:44	Raynes	&(var println)
04:44	lazybot	⇒ #'clojure.core/println
04:44	Raynes	It's a var.
04:45	Sgeo_	Common Lisp uses that to refer to named functions as objects, I think Racket uses it for ... syntax objects?
04:45	Sgeo_	It gets confusing
04:45	ro_st	#'foo = (var foo)
04:45	Sgeo_	Hmm, ok
04:45	ro_st	&(= (var println) #'println)
04:45	lazybot	⇒ true
04:49	dbushenko	isn't #' syntax obsolete?
04:50	borkdude	dbushenko in some cases you need it
04:50	borkdude	dbushenko when you need the var instead of the value
04:52	ro_st	ok. so i know i can do (PUT "/scores" {body :body} (…)). how do i destructure like that and also use a param?
04:52	ro_st	(PUT "/scores/:id" <some how mix [id] and {body :body}> (…))
04:52	Sgeo_	Lesse
04:53	Sgeo_	(This is based on my understanding, and, as such, may be wrong in subtle or not-so-subtle ways)
04:53	Sgeo_	A lens could be thought of as a first-class way to refer to something in a data structure
04:53	dbushenko	borkdude: Can't I use just ' instead of #' for getting the var?
04:54	Sgeo_	So, you'd have functions that take a lens and an object, and either retrieve the value mentioned by the lens, or "set" (as in return a new copy) of the structure with the place modified
04:54	borkdude	dbushenko no, then you will get the quoted symbol
04:54	borkdude	,'foo
04:54	clojurebot	foo
04:54	borkdude	,#'foo
04:54	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: foo in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
04:54	Sgeo_	Easy example: keywords could be lenses
04:54	Sgeo_	,(get :alpha {:alpha 5})
04:54	clojurebot	nil
04:54	Sgeo_	...?
04:55	ro_st	,(get {:alpha 5} :alpha})
04:55	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: }>
04:55	ro_st	,(get {:alpha 5} :alpha)
04:55	clojurebot	5
04:56	Sgeo_	,(assoc {:alpha 5} :alpha 6)
04:56	Kototama	hi, I have problem using ring uberwar , any idea what the error could be: http://paste.lisp.org/display/129977
04:56	clojurebot	{:alpha 6}
04:56	Sgeo_	So, you see how :alpha is being passed into those to refer to a location
04:56	Sgeo_	Thus, :alpha would be an example of a lens
04:57	Sgeo_	Another lens could be one that gets/sets the first item in a list
04:57	Sgeo_	Lenses are also composable
04:58	Sgeo_	So I could combine them, then pass the combined lens around
04:58	clgv	Kototama: try to get the full trace. the best info is contained in the initial exception
05:00	Sgeo_	I could also, to be silly, write a lens that gets/sets 1 above the number
05:00	Sgeo_	So getting a number through this lens results in a higher value, and setting results in lower than the set value
05:00	dbushenko	borkdude, maybe you're right, I have to investigate that deeper
05:01	Sgeo_	get-in, assoc-in, and update-in analogues wouldn't strictly speaking be necessary, since lenses would have a comp-lens function
05:03	Kototama	clgv: how can i get the full stacktracE?
05:03	Kototama	i run it from the command line
05:03	clgv	Kototama: hmm I always found that difficult with leiningen. does leiningen's interactive mode provide a command?
05:05	ordnungswidrig	Sgeo_: is there a lenses lib for clojure, yet?
05:07	Kototama	ring uberwar from lein interactive does just returns nil without showing anything
05:14	Sgeo_	ordnungswidrig, I don't know, I don't think so
05:15	Sgeo_	They should be reasonably simple to implement, though
05:15	ordnungswidrig	Sgeo_: beside that update-in etc. are lenses for associative data structures
05:15	borkdude	is a lens not simple a function which uses update-in
05:15	borkdude	simply
05:16	Sgeo_	Hmm. I wouldn't call update-in a lens, I'd say that update-in takes a lens as one of the arguments
05:16	borkdude	lens = an accessor path?
05:17	Sgeo_	borkdude, that sounds like a good summary
05:28	ro_st	with ring, if i have a (-> ) macro for my ring handler, in what order should i place a middleware that augments the request, the handler and a middleware that augments the response?
05:28	ro_st	-> req-mid handler res-mid ?
05:29	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: sounds good
05:29	ro_st	and if the handler is a compojure defroutes?
05:30	amalloy	ro_st: it might be easier to think about if you drop the ->, figure out the order things should go in, and then put it back in as just a syntactic transformation
05:30	ro_st	sure. the difficulty here is that i don't know how compojure's defroutes plays with
05:31	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: the go first in the process
05:32	ro_st	(def app (-> app-routes wrap-json-params wrap-json-response wrap-access-control-allow-origin))
05:32	ro_st	that seems wrong to me
05:33	ro_st	i know that app-routes and access-control are working (i can see it in the response data in Charles)
05:33	ordnungswidrig	I see, no it'd be (-> wrap-json-params app-routes wrap-json-response ...)
05:33	ro_st	it's not json-ifying the response data itself, though, because i'm getting back {:symbol "string"}
05:33	ro_st	yeah that gives me a null pointer exception
05:34	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: have a stacktrace pase?
05:34	ro_st	only has one entry: java.lang.NullPointerException, compiling:(app.clj:63)
05:34	ro_st	63 in this case only has "(->" on it
05:35	ordnungswidrig	seems to be related to compojure macro expansion
05:41	wink	ifesdjeen: halfway done porting from congomongo to monger, and it seems to work with mongodb 1.4 as well :P
05:42	ifesdjeen	wink: w0000t!
05:42	ifesdjeen	wink: we started development from 1.8 iirc, congrats, and glad you made that leap!
05:42	wink	(testbox with debian squeeze :P)
05:42	Sgeo_	I'm starting to think there might not be a good reason to bring lenses to Clojure
05:43	Sgeo_	,(get-in {:hi [4 5]} 0 :hi)
05:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
05:43	Sgeo_	,(get-in {:hi [4 5]} :hi 0)
05:43	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword>
05:43	Sgeo_	,(get-in {:hi [4 5]} [:hi 0])
05:43	clojurebot	4
05:43	borkdude	,(get-in {:hi [4 5]} [:hi 0])
05:43	clojurebot	4
05:43	ifesdjeen	wink: are you on Twitter?
05:43	ifesdjeen	what's your handle
05:43	wink	ifesdjeen: @anderiasch (but half of it is German)
05:44	ifesdjeen	wink: i speak some german)) i'm in Germany anyways
05:44	ifesdjeen	aaaahhh
05:44	Sgeo_	But still, there's only one way to ... hmm, even that could be worked around rather easily
05:44	wink	ifesdjeen: I was the big blonde guy yesterday ;)
05:44	ifesdjeen	wink: :D now I can correlate
05:44	wink	hehe, yeah, sorry
05:46	Sgeo_	Are there any cases where one might want to make a view into an object that the creator of the object didn't think of?
05:47	Sgeo_	Becauses lenses would be good for that
05:47	borkdude	I guess the "Central" issues are gone now?
05:48	hiredman	Sgeo_: just expose the view has an ILookUp
05:48	hiredman	then you can mostly treat it as a map
05:48	Sgeo_	What does ILookUp do?
05:49	hiredman	it is the interface that keywords use to lookup values when called as a function
05:49	hiredman	(:foo x) ;; works when x implements ILookup
05:50	hiredman	https://github.com/arohner/clj-wallhack/blob/master/src/wall/hack.clj#L38 ILookup for private field access via reflection
05:50	Sgeo_	Ok, cool, it doesn't do what I want it to do
05:50	Sgeo_	That means my ideas might still have a use
05:51	Sgeo_	....oh, I see what you mean
05:51	Sgeo_	Wrapping the object in a wrapper that makes ILookup work how you want
05:51	hiredman	you can then do things like (let [{:keys [somePrivateField]} (mirror obj)] ...)
05:52	Sgeo_	...that doesn't compose well.... I still have a reason to make lenses!
05:52	Sgeo_	>.>
05:53	hiredman	(:somePrivateField (mirror obj))
05:53	hiredman	ILookup enables all the features you know and love
05:54	hiredman	get-in uses ILookup
05:54	Sgeo_	But ILookup is a feature of the object being looked in, not the value used to refer to a location in that object
05:55	hiredman	Sgeo_: so?
05:57	Sgeo_	So.... it's not maximally flexible and convenient for certain tasks which I'm actually having trouble imagining
05:58	Sgeo_	Suppose I wanted to look up items not by their index in a vector, but by the reversed index
05:58	Sgeo_	So that 0 is the last item, etc.
05:58	Sgeo_	And I want a get-in that lets me, in the list, mix reversed indexes and regular indexes
05:59	Sgeo_	And this is still on ordinary, vanilla lists.
06:01	hiredman	,(get (let [x [1 2 3]] (reify clojure.lang.ILookup (valAt [_ k] (get x (- (count x) (inc k)))))) 0)
06:01	clojurebot	3
06:01	hiredman	,(get (let [x [1 2 3]] (reify clojure.lang.ILookup (valAt [_ k] (get x (- (count x) (inc k)))))) 2)
06:01	clojurebot	1
06:02	Sgeo_	So, you're making a new object that supports the reversed lookup?
06:03	Sgeo_	I want to, hypothetically, write (get-in [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] [(rev 0) 0])
06:04	Sgeo_	And I would get 7
06:08	mrb_bk	How can I find the available flags for leiningen 2's javac task? I want to see verbose output during the compilation
06:23	clojureman	Sgeo_: assuming you have a get-rev fn, just do (-> [[1 2 3] [4 5 6] [7 8 9]] (get-rev 0) (get 0)) to get 7 (I know you could be posing prob in larger context than I see here, so feel free to ignore answ)
06:58	dikidoom	hey, can someone tell me if seq-utils made it into the new modular system yet?
07:00	borkdude	dikidoom http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
07:01	dikidoom	thanks borkdude, but seq-utils is not mentioned there, so i can only guess ...
07:01	borkdude	dikidoom hmm, yeh, I guess not then
07:02	dikidoom	okay, thanks for the hint! :)
07:02	ro_st	i'm having a brainfart with compojure. i've used swank/break to break all the way to the point where the fn that my compofure route talks to returns its data, and the data (a map) is there. but in the browser, there's no data. content length 0.
07:04	ro_st	when i trigger my ring handler in the repl, i get the data back.
07:05	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: did you restart the jvm? I struggled with that before and some ns was not reloaded completely
07:07	ro_st	trying that now.
07:07	ro_st	just found your compojure-rest lib, ordnungswidrig
07:08	ordnungswidrig	g
07:08	ro_st	same issue
07:09	ro_st	when a compojure handler returns a map, must that map conform to the ring response spec?
07:09	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: compojure routing can be hard to debug.
07:09	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: yes
07:09	ro_st	nfc. i'm trying to return a map for wrap-json-response to json-fiy
07:09	ro_st	-ify*
07:09	ro_st	nfw*
07:09	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: can you show some code?
07:12	ro_st	this is what i'm trying to do
07:12	ro_st	https://www.refheap.com/paste/3102
07:12	clojureman	ro_st: I observed similar behaviour once with jetty and a domainname without any dots in it (defined in hosts-file) - once I changed to a domain with dots (localhost.xxxxxx.com) everything worked. I did not have time to investigate further, as I had already lost a bit of time...
07:12	ro_st	it appears that i need to do some response wrangling inside my compojure handlers
07:13	ro_st	i was hoping to have my handlers return POCOs and let the ring middlewares do all the make-up
07:14	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: you can return a map like this: {::jsonify {:a 1 :b 2}} and make the wrapper jsonify it
07:14	ro_st	the middlewares i have there are the ones from https://github.com/ngrunwald/ring-middleware-format
07:16	ro_st	i guess a hack would be to wrap my map in a vector and de-vectorise on the client
07:16	ro_st	thanks for the tip clojureman
07:17	ordnungswidrig	hhm, never used that but associating the map as {:body mymap} should work with wrap-json-response
07:18	ro_st	wooohoop
07:18	ro_st	that works.
07:18	ro_st	on the plus side, i now have a good grasp of debugging with breakpoints
07:19	ordnungswidrig	ro_st: make a blog post :)
07:19	ro_st	thanks ordnungswidrig
07:19	ro_st	now i can reward myself with some Diablo 3
07:20	ordnungswidrig	lol
08:05	dabd	I'd like to work on Clojure on a Windows environment. ClojureBox is no longer maintained. did anyone take over this project?
08:07	ordnungswidrig	dadb: I think is is not needed any more.
08:08	dabd	What is the simplest way to setup a development environment on win?
08:08	clgv	dabd: you can get started pretty quickly with Eclipse+CCW and leiningen
08:08	dabd	I'd like Emacs+Clojure
08:08	dabd	Not a fan of Eclipse/Netbeans
08:08	ordnungswidrig	download emacs 24.1 from gnu.org, install clojure-mode using package.el (which is shipped with 24.1), install leiningen and there you go.
08:08	dabd	ok
08:09	ordnungswidrig	maybe you'd have to configuration path to leiningen from emacs.
08:09	kmicu	dabd: it is no problem to work with eclipse and leiningen on Windows
08:09	ordnungswidrig	I had to setup my new windows 7 box the other day and it went rather well.
08:10	borkdude	ordnungswidrig what is the difference in list-packages and package-list-packages in 24.1?
08:10	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: i don't know. I only knew package-list-packages
08:11	borkdude	ordnungswidrig I guess this package thing also worked in 24.0.91.1 ?
08:11	ordnungswidrig	I upgraded from emacs 23.x today and I did not use 24.0.x
08:11	borkdude	ordnungswidrig in 24.1 my screen gets mangled in OSX
08:12	ordnungswidrig	borkdude: on my osx machine i'm still on 23.x
08:21	ejackson	borkdude: I get the same mangling in terminal, but not out of terminal
08:21	borkdude	ejackson I havn't used it in terminal
08:22	borkdude	ejackson I used the build from emacsformacosx.com
08:22	ejackson	same here
08:22	Vinzent	Hi. Why can't I derive from class?
08:22	dabd	kmicu: I am used to emacs
08:23	ejackson	with emacs -nw I get shearing, double lines, vanishing lines etc. But in its own GUI frame its 100% fine
08:23	borkdude	ejackson hm, nwo it seems to work, don't know what caused it
08:23	ejackson	its intermittent... :P
08:24	borkdude	I will give it another try then
08:25	kmicu	dabd: sorry, i had in mind emacs :)
08:29	Vinzent	So, can somebody explain why I can't (derive ::foo SomeClass)?
08:30	cshell	,(doc derive)
08:30	clojurebot	"([tag parent] [h tag parent]); Establishes a parent/child relationship between parent and tag. Parent must be a namespace-qualified symbol or keyword and child can be either a namespace-qualified symbol or keyword or a class. h must be a hierarchy obtained from make-hierarchy, if not supplied defaults to, and modifies, the global hierarchy."
08:31	ohpauleez	haha, well there you have it
08:31	cshell	The second argument has to be a symbol or keyword?
08:32	ohpauleez	Vinzent: derive is just for creating related hierarchies, not for inheritance of any kind
08:32	Vinzent	I know, my question was why is it so.
08:32	Vinzent	ohpauleez, I know.
08:32	ohpauleez	Vinzent: So in what use case does it make sense that a parent is a class?
08:33	cshell	Oh, oops - yeah I can't explain :)
08:33	ohpauleez	you'd most likely want the class name as a symbol or a keyword, but not the whole class
08:38	Vinzent	ohpauleez, here is a little example: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3103
08:39	Vinzent	ohpauleez, the only way to work around it is to derive Number from ::number, but I don't see much sense in that
08:42	clgv	Vinzent: you can use `type` instead of `class` - then it will look op the :type metadata
08:44	Vinzent	clgv, I'm not sure how it'll help... I still can't derive from class, so it won't make any difference
08:44	clgv	Vinzent: what do you want to do exactly?
08:44	Vinzent	Look, my question is why the derive works the way it is, what's the background behind this decision
08:44	Vinzent	clgv, in that example (foo x) should return "number"
08:45	clgv	Vinzent: well then why don't you derive the other way round?
08:46	clgv	(derive Number :number) (derive :complex-number :number)
08:46	clgv	now both are numbers
08:46	Vinzent	clgv, that's exactly what I've said above: "the only way to work around it is to derive Number from ::number, but I don't see much sense in that"
08:47	clgv	and why?
08:47	ohpauleez	Vinzent: Why not? that makes more sense to me
08:47	ohpauleez	You want to classify a group of things as a :number - what are those things?
08:48	ohpauleez	the actual number class, :complex-number … maybe :imaginary-number
08:48	Vinzent	Creating unnecessary entity just to work around some limitation makes more sense? Oh, come on
08:48	ohpauleez	an :imaginary-number may or may not be a NUmber
08:49	ohpauleez	Vinzent: I didn't mean for my remark to sound insulting, sorry about that
08:50	ohpauleez	Otherwise is seems like you're tightly coupling these hierarchies (potentially) to a class hierarchy and that's undesirable
08:50	clgv	Vinzent: it's no workaround - it makes actually sense to say Number is a :number and your new complex number is a :number
08:50	ohpauleez	both for the language and for design
08:51	Vinzent	Looks like the only thing preventing from deriving from class is (assert (namespace parent)) in the derive source code
08:52	Vinzent	ohpauleez, no, it doesn't sound insulting :) No, I don't think I'm coupling these things
08:52	Vinzent	clgv, how is it better than saying that complex number is a number?
08:53	S11001001	Vinzent: yes, that's to prevent you from putting unsafe stuff in global-hierarchy. If you want no rules, use your own hierarchy
08:53	clgv	because it is not. your complex number is a map. it shares nothing with the Number class
08:53	Vinzent	S11001001, I can't, actually
08:54	clgv	the other way round the Number class can be of an abstract type :number
08:54	Vinzent	clgv, why should it share something? We're talking about hierarhies, not java inheritance
08:54	Vinzent	I think "number" is abstract enough :)
08:54	ohpauleez	So you want to toss in a class, and under the hood it just uses the Symbol for that class? or the class as keyword? Or some other rule to convert your set of classes into acceptable parents in the hierarchy?
08:54	clgv	java inheritance is mapped into the whole isa? concept which hierarchies is using
08:56	Vinzent	clgv, I don't see how it affects the issue
08:57	clgv	Vinzent: if class A inherites from class B and you can derive the other way round that would make no sense
08:57	S11001001	just using ::number sounds better, Vinzent
08:57	Vinzent	ohpauleez, you mean implementation? Hierarchies are implemented with plain maps
08:58	clgv	&(isa? Integer Number)
08:58	lazybot	⇒ true
08:58	Vinzent	clgv, the same with keywords. There is nothing specific to classes here.
08:58	Vinzent	S11001001, I don't think so.
08:59	clgv	a map of type :complex should now be derivable from the Number class which is absolutely not true in java inheritance?
09:00	Vinzent	We're talking about clojure hierarchies, not java inheritance
09:00	S11001001	ok
09:00	clgv	Vinzent: well clojure hierarchies includes java's inheritance as seen in ##(isa? Integer Number)
09:00	lazybot	⇒ true
09:01	clgv	so (derive :blubb Number) does not make any sense
09:01	Vinzent	clgv, I know, but so what? Let's deny multiple inheritance in clojure because (isa? Integer Number) ⇒ true, or what? I don't understand what do you mean.
09:03	ohpauleez	Vinzent: you can easily write one function, that converts your classes into however you want to interpret them for the hierarchy. At the end of the day, we have to accept the platform we're on
09:04	Vinzent	ohpauleez, how is such function supposed to work?
09:04	Vinzent	I have to redefine derive then, which is not a good idea.
09:04	S11001001	Vinzent: how is a function that accepts a java.lang.Number but gets a map instead supposed to work?
09:05	clgv	Vinzent: (fn [x & _] (case (type x) :complex-number Number (type x)))
09:05	S11001001	no.
09:05	S11001001	that's a separate type
09:05	S11001001	not a specialized type
09:05	Vinzent	S11001001, well, that's not a question actually :)
09:05	S11001001	oh, I am reading this wrong
09:06	borkdude	zombie numbers
09:06	borkdude	sorry I had to say that, don't know why :P
09:07	clgv	hehe. I think java inheritance is a special case embedded in clojure's hierarchies. so classes can derive from anything else in those hierarchies, but deriving from classes would break the semantik of the embedded java inheritance
09:07	Vinzent	clgv, I'm not sure how it would help.
09:07	Vinzent	(by it I mean that function)
09:07	ohpauleez	Vinzent: It could be something as direct as (keyword (str %))
09:07	clgv	that dispatch function would translate your :complex-number type to Number thus making your code work.
09:08	Vinzent	ohpauleez, I don't understand, could you show the whole solution?
09:08	ohpauleez	Personally, I think the best solution is the double derive, especially if you're defining your own hierarchy
09:08	Vinzent	clgv, dispatch function is fixed (and it was `class` in my example)
09:09	clgv	change it ^^
09:09	Vinzent	How? It's in some library, for example.
09:10	Vinzent	ohpauleez, well, actually I was asking about the reasons why derive works this way, not about solution :)
09:10	clgv	seemed like you defined it yourself
09:11	clgv	Vinzent: derive works that way because the decided that the inheritance relation of java classes shall be a part of clojure's hierarchies
09:12	Vinzent	well, then maybe I should replace the mulimethod with a single `case`, huh? :)
09:12	clgv	Vinzent: I would introduce the :number parent if I were you.
09:16	Vinzent	clgv, well, as I've probably said above, I don't see how (derive ::foo SomeClass) breakes java inheritance. Anyway, we should finish the discussion
09:22	clgv	Vinzent: it breaks the java inheritance hierarchy inside clojure's hirarchy
09:47	ro_st	can i run more than one slime repl in emacs at a time?
09:53	S11001001	ro_st: in general, slime supports that, as do certain swank-clojure arrangements, but I'm not sure that technomancy supports that in general
09:53	S11001001	it works perfectly well with common lisp, if that helps ;)
09:55	cshell	with slime emacs, has anyone been able to get a repl running for days at a time?
09:55	cshell	without having to restart it?
09:55	S11001001	yep, no problem
09:55	S11001001	weeks, even
09:55	kreig1	cshell yah
09:56	cshell	cool, can you get all of the command history too?
09:56	S11001001	what's "all"?
09:56	kreig1	yah, it's emacs, it's in a buffer
09:56	cshell	If you defined a function on the first day and you now want to move that into code, can you get back to it so you can copy it or is there a clojure function that will print the source?
09:58	ro_st	S11001001: thanks for that
09:58	kreig1	cshell: yah, but you would be much better off working in a file and then evaluating
09:58	S11001001	cshell: press M-< to go back to the top of the repl buffer
09:58	S11001001	also inc kreig1
09:59	cshell	Okay, so depending on the size of your buffer you can keep as much as you want
09:59	cshell	kreig1: that's what I've been doing but didn't know if that was teh idiomatic way :)
09:59	cshell	S11001001 & kreig1: thanks guys
09:59	S11001001	there's no scrollback limit like in terminals, at least not by default; you keep everything unless you clear explicitly
10:00	ro_st	even on my monster quad core machine i've found that performance degrades pretty quickly with a long repl history
10:00	S11001001	ro_st: it's significantly more useful in CL, so you can test in different CL implementations simultaneously
10:01	ro_st	that is useful. in my case, i have a project that does my sql->mongo conversion, and a project for my json api. it'd be nice to have both running so that i can tweak the convertor and test in the api service
10:02	S11001001	can both projects be compatibly loaded in the same image?
10:02	ro_st	i could lein repl the one, but i want to be able to push code to both repls as i move on
10:02	ro_st	with minor adjustments, yes. but doesn't slime repl depend on the deps present in project.clj?
10:03	S11001001	yes, but you can use checkouts to unify your sources
10:03	S11001001	so you'd make a dummy project with the deps union
10:03	ro_st	what is this sorcery you speak of
10:03	S11001001	and add both source trees to checkouts/
10:03	ro_st	checkouts? wossat?
10:03	S11001001	then lein will add src/, test/, resources/, etc from both your source trees
10:03	ro_st	(clojure/emacs newbie. about a month in.)
10:04	kreig1	ro_st: very large single output blocks can slow it down when they accumulate
10:05	kreig1	if you disable font-lock mode, M-x font-lock-mode, it won't have much of an impact tho
10:05	kreig1	aka, the overhead is in all the syntax hilighting
10:05	ro_st	ah, that makes sense
10:05	kreig1	Iusually keep my repl buffer clean
10:05	ro_st	i prefer to C-c M-o regularly
10:06	ro_st	clears the output, but retains entered command history
10:06	S11001001	anyhow, then you jack in to your dummy project, and should have the deps union you wrote, plus both source trees, available
10:06	ro_st	S11001001: where can i read more on how to do this?
10:07	S11001001	lein help checkouts maybe
10:07	ro_st	nope :-(
10:07	gfredericks	checkouts are described in the lein readme, or one of the doc files
10:08	gfredericks	there's not much to it though
10:08	gfredericks	mkdir checkouts && ln -s /some/other/project checkouts/some-other-project
10:09	ro_st	and then anything special in project.clj?
10:09	gfredericks	you do have to have the project listed in your :dependencies like normal
10:09	gfredericks	but nothing extra for using checkouts
10:09	ro_st	ah i see. is it possible to refer to another project on disk in deps? or do i have to put it into git first
10:10	S11001001	the git bits are an afterthought; I've never used them, just symlinking
10:11	S11001001	gfredericks: and you don't need the project in dependencies
10:11	gfredericks	S11001001: at least if it has its own deps, right?
10:11	S11001001	I don't know the situation with lein2
10:11	gfredericks	S11001001: the lein docs have always said so
10:11	S11001001	but lein1 wouldn't pick up transitive dep changes
10:11	ro_st	forgive me for rehashing this, but what would the dummy project need in place? project.clj, checkouts folder with 2 symlinks, and an app.clj with nothing in it from which to clojure-jack-in ?
10:11	S11001001	I've used checkouts without referring to the project I checkouts-ed
10:12	S11001001	not even an app.clj
10:12	ro_st	i guess i'd need to pull something from each project into app.clj so that it's compiled
10:12	kmicu	can sbd try to run this https://github.com/stuartsierra/cljs-formatter ? :) lein 2.0.0 needed
10:12	gfredericks	S11001001: you're a naughty naughty dev
10:12	S11001001	gfredericks: so I'm building a new library for use in a project.
10:12	S11001001	should I make a dummy release before it has anything in it? No thanks.
10:13	S11001001	ro_st: your project.clj would need all the deps both need, and compatibly, because checkouts doesn't pick up transitive deps. That's why I asked whether they could work in the same image
10:13	ro_st	ok great
10:13	ro_st	i can do that
10:14	ro_st	so jack-in'll use the deps env from dummy's project.clj, and then load src from the two subs as though they were source in dummy?
10:14	S11001001	yeah; you can see what'll happen with lein classpath in your dummy tree
10:15	ro_st	sweet
10:15	ro_st	thanks for the tip
10:15	gfredericks	S11001001: you can install it locally; but yeah that's not worth it if you don't have to
10:15	S11001001	I hate snapshots
10:15	gfredericks	S11001001: I was only arguing about lein's opinion on the matter, not my own
10:16	S11001001	I would think lein would agree about snapshots :/
10:17	S11001001	as for that recommendation, I think that's just to pick up what would be transitive dependencies for the library you're working on. It's a hack, and doesn't work perfectly, but it's okay
10:20	ro_st	thanks again. break time
10:25	gfredericks	S11001001: half of the time I use checkouts it's to debug some third party library that's already listed in my project.clj
10:26	S11001001	definitely
10:26	duck1123	checkouts are good when you're developing a support library alongside your main project
10:33	clgv	duck1123: and if you want to build all checkouts at once from your main project you can use lein-checkouts
10:37	llasram	TimMc: ping
11:02	TimMc	llasram: pong
11:05	llasram	TimMc: Had been trying to just /msg you, but apparently IRC is hard
11:05	devn	TimMc: I found a way to beat roulette
11:06	devn	TimMc: You just wager the same amount on both red and black
11:06	devn	winner every time.
11:06	llasram	devn: What about green?
11:09	TimMc	llasram: I've been offline since yesterday afternoon.
11:09	TimMc	Ah, and I see your PMs.
11:15	wink	devn: you know the bank has a cut usually? :P
11:19	gtrak	you win on roulette by being a casino..
11:35	hyPiRion	Is there a more idiomatic way of writing (fn [x] (if (not= v x) x))?
11:36	ohpauleez	hyPiRion: when-not
11:37	hyPiRion	So basically (when-not (= v x) x) then.
11:37	hyPiRion	okay, thanks.
11:38	ohpauleez	np, happy to helo
11:38	S11001001	((set/difference set-of-all-values #{v}) x)
11:38	S11001001	definition of set-of-all-values left as exercise for y ou
11:39	ohpauleez	if you're using it in a binding form, you'll want to look at when-let and if-let
11:39	S11001001	ohpauleez: not so much
11:39	ohpauleez	S11001001: What do you mean?
11:40	S11001001	ohpauleez: how would you write that with when-let or if-let?
11:40	S11001001	also, (first (set/difference #{x} #{v}))
11:40	S11001001	sets are cool, like bowties
11:40	ohpauleez	I'm saying if his end goal is to use these values in a binding form
11:40	Iceland_work	S11001001: "for certain values of cool" ;)
11:41	S11001001	ohpauleez: there's nothing useful you could put in the value-to-test position of an if-let or when-let that would give you the behavior of the aforementioned function
11:42	ohpauleez	I was not speaking to the function, but equality check - whether that's in a function is irrelevant to me
11:42	S11001001	equality checking returns a boolean
11:43	ohpauleez	(and 1 2)
11:43	ohpauleez	(when-let x (and 1 2))
11:44	hyPiRion	Sets are cool when you deal with small value ranges, not when you deal with 2^31 different values.
11:45	S11001001	ohpauleez: what's that second thing?
11:53	clgv	hyPiRion: 2^31 value on a jvm lets your RAM explode pretty much, doesn't it? ;)
11:57	ohpauleez	hyPiRion: There might be a cool shorthand for that in the Hacker's Handbook too, not sure if this is performance sensitive
12:05	pepijndevos	Is there a function like descendants for java hierarchies?
12:10	tbaldridge	pepijndevos: I don't think the JVM does what you want. Doing (descendants Object) would require clojure to return every single type the JVM knows about
12:10	tbaldridge	possible, but doesn't seem like it would work too well.
12:10	pepijndevos	tbaldridge, probably...
12:11	tbaldridge	also, the JVM doesn't track subclasses of types. As in you can say "get all children of this type" so it would require a linear search of all objects with a (instance?) on each
12:13	S11001001	besides, classes load lazily, so it would be unhelpful
12:16	devn	llasram: I actually think green doesn't matter in TimMc's game. At least we saw it count as even
12:17	oskarth	trying to generate and save an image with quil without generating an applet. Any ideas how to do this?
12:20	dnolen	oskarth: do you mean without constructing an Processing applet instance? How can you do any drawing then?
12:22	oskarth	dnolen: I guess I mean without doing anything unnecessary, I just want the image-file
12:25	oskarth	found what I was looking for, :target :none in the sketch fn
12:26	sthuebner	what's the practical difference between the 'type and 'class functions? I mean, for what use cases does 'type go beyond 'class?
12:27	dnolen	sthuebner: type will also look at the :type field in meta
12:28	TimMc	devn: It's not my game.
12:29	sthuebner	dnolen: I assumed, that - for most cases - that field contains the same information. No?
12:29	ibdknox	is aot absolutely necessary to run a clojure program from an uberjar?
12:29	TimMc	ibdknox: Yes, at least for the main class.
12:30	TimMc	ibdknox: The rest can be dynamically loaded quite easily. I wrote lein-otf to handle that.
12:31	kreig1	otf?
12:31	TimMc	on-the-fly :-)
12:31	TimMc	"jit" was confusing people.
12:32	kreig1	recompiled files when they change?
12:32	sthuebner	dnolen: ah, not right. type returns (class x) if no :type field is found.
12:32	kreig1	me no good at english tenses
12:33	TimMc	kreig1: Nothing so fancy. It's just my term for the opposite of ahead-of-time compilation.
12:34	TimMc	kreig1: AOT compilation has to be used to some extent to make an uberjar. lein-otf injects a small AOT'd loader namespace that takes the place of your own main class, then asks the Clojure runtime to load the real one.
12:34	TimMc	s/an uberjar/any executable jar/
12:38	ibdknox	TimMc: sweet, I think that'll work
12:38	ibdknox	TimMc: the CLJS compiler keels over when it's AOT'd :(
12:39	dnolen	pepijndevos: re: FD, I think you're right about IFiniteDomain. I do note that B-Prolog had (has?), CLP(FD), CLP(Tree), CLP(Set), CLP(Boolean)
12:41	dnolen	pepijndevos: so we could probably break out ICLPFD, ICLPSet? need to think about naming ...
12:41	TimMc	ibdknox: Curious. What breaks, exactly?
12:42	TimMc	ibdknox: Oh, and FYI: llasram is working on some enhancements to lein-otf, such as lein2 compat.
12:49	pepijndevos	dnolen, right... was just trying to formulate my thoughts in an email
12:56	brainproxy	using lein-ring with :auto-reload? true... have a (route/resources "/") in my handler, an when I load a page in browser from resources/public, only the path name is coming back, not the contents of the .html file
13:01	jsabeaudry	Anyone has had problems where agents die of heap exhaustion after a few hours?
13:04	bordatoue	is there a sleep equivalent in clojure
13:05	rlb	bordatoue: (Thread/sleep 1000)?
13:05	Guest79414	rlb: then what about the interrupted exception
13:05	TimMc	Catch it if you want to.
13:06	Guest79414	TimMc: so there is no compile time error if i don't catch it
13:06	TimMc	Right.
13:06	TimMc	Checked exceptions are a Java thing, not a JVM thing.
13:07	Guest79414	TimMC: what do you mean saying it is a Java thing
13:08	Guest79414	hello
13:08	Guest79414	why is my name change to Guest
13:09	brainproxy	hmm, okay, it seems to be the :auto-refresh? option for `lein ring` that's got a problem.. not correctly processing GET req's associated with html coming up out of resources/public
13:09	brainproxy	guess I can wait for weaverjester to come back online :)
13:09	rlb	Guest79414: means that java the language (and hence compiler) cares whether or not you catch those exceptions, but the JVM doesn't, so clojure doesn't have to (and it doesn't).
13:22	Guest79414	hello
13:25	bordatoue	h
13:48	Sgeo_	Someone pinged me here but I missed it L(
14:03	gtrak	Sgeo_: there are logs
14:04	Sgeo_	gtrak, where?
14:05	gtrak	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
14:05	Sgeo_	ty
14:12	pepijndevos	dnolen, food for thought: https://github.com/clojure/algo.generic probably not fast enough for you, though ;)
14:21	sorenmacbeth	someone told me about a clojure specific pastebin.com-like site
14:21	sorenmacbeth	*** the other night. Anyone know what the name of it is?
14:22	gtrak	refheap
14:22	sorenmacbeth	gtrak: that's it. cheers
14:23	nDuff	gist.github.com has quite good Clojure syntax highlighting
14:23	nDuff	(in addition to allowing git as a client, keeping revision history for gists, allowing multiple files, and all the other shiny things it does)
14:36	eggsby	I'm trying to use a routing library 'clout' by weavejester, it uses a method which when invoked with a route string and a request object, (route-matches "target" ring-request), given one request how can I easily do a sort of case/switch while capturing the result if it matches?
14:36	eggsby	all I can think of is nested if-let's which seems horrifying
14:36	jbarrios	hmm, why can't my code find the log4j.properties file? I've put it all over the classpath
14:37	amalloy	eggsby: do you just want `some`?
14:37	eggsby	hmm
14:38	eggsby	I'm thinking maybe thread last?
14:38	amalloy	that sounds like nonsense
14:38	eggsby	probably :)
14:38	amalloy	eg, compojure.core/routes is basically just (fn [& handlers] (fn [request] (some #(% request) handlers)))
14:39	eggsby	ya, maybe I should just use compojure
14:39	dustingetz	hi guys, i'm new to clojure - i find myself restarting the repl a few times an hour because of ns conflicts
14:39	dustingetz	is this normal or am i missing a best practice
14:39	nDuff	...what kind of conflicts?
14:39	gtrak	what's an ns conflict?
14:39	pvncad	n00b here. I am having little trouble in understanding head retention. I think, i understood it in thoery
14:40	dustingetz	my `use` statements fail in the repl because something is already defined
14:40	nDuff	dustingetz: ahh. require is your friend.
14:40	dustingetz	i hesitate to use require because a lot of the time im including multiple packages of the same thing
14:40	pvncad	but not able to understand following example for it
14:40	gtrak	dustingetz: try 'require :as'
14:40	pvncad	(let [[t d] (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8))] [(count d) (count t)])
14:40	eggsby	amalloy: I basically want 'cond' but I want to capture the result of the test and provide it to the form that matches
14:40	pvncad	any help?
14:40	eggsby	is there a simple way to do that?
14:41	nDuff	dustingetz: ...I'm not sure I follow what you mean by "multiple packages of the same thing" in a way that would rule out require.
14:41	dustingetz	`(require [korma.db :as korma] [korma.db :as ???]
14:41	dustingetz	i want them both in 'korma' ns
14:41	dustingetz	aliased ns, whatever
14:41	kreig1	that's not how aliases work
14:41	dustingetz	otherwise i may as well just reference them explicitly
14:41	gtrak	eggsby: I'm imagining a cond-let
14:41	kreig1	first, you prolly don't want korma.db, just saying
14:41	kreig1	korma.core I alias as kql
14:41	TimMc	No, korma.db is useful.
14:41	kreig1	you CAN access things without the alias
14:42	gtrak	eggsby: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/2ede388a9267d175bfaa7781ee9d57532eb4f20f/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/cond.clj#L18
14:42	kreig1	interesting, I only use it for starting up DBs
14:42	eggsby	huh, cond-let exists, how about that
14:42	kreig1	so I just [:require "korma.db"] and then call (korma.db/whatever
14:42	TimMc	eggsby: Use to exist.
14:42	nDuff	dustingetz: ...notably, you _can_ clean out a namespace with less than a restart...
14:42	kreig1	see ns-unalias etc...
14:43	gtrak	why shouldn't cond-let exist?
14:43	gtrak	it seems like people re-invent it all the time
14:43	amalloy	gtrak: with different semantics each time, is why
14:44	neotyk	pvncad: what problem do you have with it?
14:44	dustingetz	i mean im not terribly wroried about restarting the repl a few times an hour
14:44	gtrak	hmm
14:44	dustingetz	its just 10 seconds of blocked thought
14:44	dustingetz	= reddit
14:44	dustingetz	haha
14:45	pvncad	neotyk: I am not able understand how reversing the count calls solves the problem
14:45	neotyk	pvncad: what problem?
14:45	pvncad	neotyk: head retention issue
14:46	pvncad	neotyk: (let [[t d] (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8))] [(count d) (count t)]) -- the sample code
14:47	neotyk	pvncad: (count d) will realize d
14:47	pvncad	neotyk: won't it be true for (count t) as well?
14:48	neotyk	pvncad: yes, but it contains 12 elements
14:48	neotyk	pvncad: while d contains 1e8 - 12
14:50	pvncad	neotyk: yes. [(count t) (count d)] and [(count d) (count t)] should behave same, right?
14:50	borkdude	neotyk what line was it again to Backbase from central station?
14:50	borkdude	26?
14:50	neotyk	borkdude: I always ask skuro
14:50	neotyk	borkdude: let me ping him
14:51	pvncad	neotyk:but former works but latter throws out-of-memory
14:52	neotyk	pvncad: imho both should throw oom
14:52	amalloy	pvncad: d and t both hold a reference to the 100-million-element sequence. if you count the short one first, then the compiler can release memory as it goes while it counts the big one
14:52	amalloy	if you count the big one first, it has to realize the whole thing before it can start counting the small one (which is also when it can start releasing memory)
14:54	neotyk	(inc amalloy)
14:54	lazybot	⇒ 23
14:56	neotyk	borkdude: yes, line 26
15:00	pvncad	amalloy: thanks. What is max memory used in both the cases? Is it 100M elements or ~200M elements
15:00	amalloy	meh. depends on how you count things
15:01	amalloy	for the OOM case, i would accept either 100M or 200M; for the non-OOM case 0, 100M, and 200M are all good approximations
15:03	pvncad	amalloy: won't doing (count smaller-one) realizeentire the data source (range 1e8)?
15:04	amalloy	no
15:04	pvncad	amalloy: here is the code I am referring (let [[t d] (split-with #(< % 12) (range 1e8))] [(count d) (count t)])
15:06	nDuff	pvncad: why would that need to realize the entire range? Both take-while and drop-while are lazy.
15:06	pvncad	amalloy: t holds reference to lazy (range 1e8) and (count t) will realize that lazy range seq
15:07	gtrak	eggsby: you could do condp :>> identity
15:08	gtrak	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/1.2.0/clojure.core/condp#example_44
15:08	borkdude	neotyk tnx
15:28	Sgeo_	Why isn't there a link to logs in the topic?
15:39	TimMc	Sgeo_: Because chouser hasn't put it there. :-P
15:41	jweiss	recommended way to define a var that is only set once, at runtime: just do (defn setup [] (def myvar "x")), or (def myvar (atom nil)) (defn setup [] (reset! myvar "x")) ?
15:41	TimMc	defonce
15:41	TimMc	err, maybe not...
15:42	amalloy	(def myvar (delay "x")) ;; ...at runtime, use @myvar...
15:43	jweiss	oh, hadn't thought of that amalloy
15:44	jweiss	not sure that really works though, since myvar might depend on function arguments
15:44	amalloy	(def myvar (promise)) (defn setup [] (deliver myvar (f x y z))) ...
15:47	jweiss	amalloy: nice.
15:47	jweiss	doesn't allow easy monkeying with the value at the repl though
15:48	jweiss	i guess i'll stick w atoms since there's no apparent consensus here
15:49	TimMc	jweiss: alter-var-root doesn't help from the REPL?
15:50	jweiss	TimMc: well of course i can reset the promise and re-deliver it, but it's more of a pain
15:50	TimMc	Nah, just reset it to an atom.
15:50	TimMc	It's still an IDeref
15:50	jweiss	ah true
15:51	jweiss	i'd thought about just using a var because i don't have to explicitly deref and concurrency is not an issue
15:53	neotyk	is leiningen.git-deps from clojurescriptone available as standalone?
15:59	Sgeo_	Are there good FRP libraries for Clojure?
16:08	dnolen	Sgeo_: no, Stuart Sierra started on something, https://github.com/stuartsierra/cljque
16:09	dnolen	but it doesn't look actively developed these days.
16:09	TimMc	How do you pronounce that, anyway? :-P
16:09	Bronsa	Cljque is pronounced "clique" or "click"
16:09	TimMc	kludge-cue?
16:09	TimMc	ah
16:09	tbaldridge	I've done some playing around with FRP style coding in Clojure. The killer is the debugging
16:10	kovasb	state strikes again..
16:10	tbaldridge	If everything is async (as with cljque) it's hard to know of the event you just sent is waiting to process or it was filtered out
16:11	gtrak	ah the silent J
16:12	Raynes	The silent killer.
16:12	gtrak	trajgic
16:12	Bronsa	lol
16:13	gtrak	or tragjc
16:13	kovasb	problem is the logic is complected with the propagation
16:13	kovasb	hard to test the logic seperately
16:13	tbaldridge	you basically run into the same issues as testing actor oriented code
16:14	gtrak	cljurmudgeon
16:17	kovasb	i think any frp solution should let you compute the same result "classically" on values, in addition to doing it on refs/event-sources
16:18	tbaldridge	so how do you handle the multiple output situation? For example:
16:19	tbaldridge	(defn dispatch [source event]
16:19	tbaldridge	(if (= source :one) (send output1 event)
16:19	tbaldridge	(= source :two) (send output2) event)))
16:20	tbaldridge	so that's more or less the way you'd do it in Erlang, but that litters side-effects throughout your code....
16:20	aperiodic	(inc gtrak)
16:20	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:22	Chousuke_	tbaldridge: I think you should have a dispatch table for something like that. (send (outputs source) event)
16:22	kovasb	observing is more FRP style than sending IMHO
16:23	kovasb	you have something that produces values, and other things that chose to consume them
16:24	kovasb	how the consumers are told there is a new value to work on is an implementation detail
16:24	kovasb	oh i see
16:24	kovasb	misread the code
16:26	kovasb	are output1 and output2 supposed to be receivers, or values?
16:26	tbaldridge	receivers
16:27	kovasb	ok
16:27	kovasb	yeah that just looks like event processing to me then
16:30	tbaldridge	But the issue I see is how to perform this without ending up with impure functions.
16:30	TimMc	FRP... That's what Out of the Tar Pit talks about, right?
16:30	tbaldridge	In push-based FRP what we end up is basically Rx (from .NET) or something that looks close to what Dataflow is
16:30	dnolen	TimMc: not really
16:31	tmciver	TimMc: no, functional reactive programming, I think.
16:31	TimMc	What's this FRP, then?
16:31	TimMc	Or that one.
16:32	tbaldridge	So at it's core, Reactive Programming is about connecting things together. For instance:
16:32	tbaldridge	x = 5 * y
16:32	tbaldridge	in reactive programming would say (x is always 5 times y, always, if y changes re-calculate x)
16:32	dnolen	TimMC: Out of the Tarpit is about Functional Relational Programming.
16:33	TimMc	Ah.
16:33	kovasb	was looking at this dissertation over the weekend
16:33	kovasb	http://www.cs.brown.edu/research/pubs/theses/phd/2008/cooper.pdf
16:33	kovasb	this is the flapjax guy
16:34	kovasb	but more in-depth than the flapjax papers on the ideas
16:35	kovasb	i think one point is, anytime you see something "send" thats basically a callback
16:36	kovasb	callback is the enemy
16:37	tbaldridge	kovasb: thanks. This looks good. I'm going to have to read it.
16:37	kovasb	yeah, i finally bit the bullet and started reading these papers :)
16:37	tbaldridge	I'm on page 5 and already they're expressing the issues I run into every day.
16:38	kovasb	that one is good. the flapjax papers are also good.
16:38	kovasb	definitely need to read a good FrTime paper
16:38	kovasb	since that seems to be the original
16:39	kovasb	also http://lampwww.epfl.ch/~imaier/pub/DeprecatingObserversTR2010.pdf
16:39	kovasb	very good breakdown the problems with callbacks
16:40	kovasb	though their solution is very much like flapjax, just scala-fied and more complicated
16:40	tbaldridge	don't those two go hand-in-hand? takes cover
16:40	kovasb	yes
16:41	kovasb	its pretty interesting putting like ftp://ftp.cs.brown.edu/pub/techreports/09/cs09-04.pdf
16:41	kovasb	side by side with the scala version
16:42	kovasb	the question I'm really interested in tho
16:42	kovasb	is how would you write that hiccup-to-dom function
16:43	kovasb	in a way that lets you put refs at any point in the hiccup
16:43	kovasb	but without putting a "is this a ref" logic at every branch point in the hiccup transformation code
16:46	kovasb	and none of that FRP stuff really helps with that
16:49	uvtc	I saw a snippet posted here a while ago (by xeqi) and was trying to figure out how it works. Here it is, with a bit more formatting: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3113 . My question is,
16:50	uvtc	how does that (conj ...) not go off and create an infinite list causing the whole thing to blow up?
16:50	uvtc	Whenever I use `iterate`, I'm always careful to put it inside a `take`...
16:52	matthavener	uvtc: because map will evaluate it lazily with (concat ...) and (concat ...) is bounded by the size of x
16:52	Sgeo_	Infinite lists are not a problem unless you try to show them
16:52	Sgeo_	Or otherwise do something with every element
16:53	uvtc	Oh. I realized that map returns a lazy seq, but did not realize that it evaluates its args lazily as well.
16:53	uvtc	Also, I see how it goes lock-step with the concat-generated seq.
16:53	uvtc	Thanks!
16:53	Sgeo_	:/
16:54	Sgeo_	That's ... not quite... arguments in Clojure are always strictly evaluated, if I understand correctly
16:54	S11001001	uvtc: it doesn't, and can't, not evaluate its args, because it is an ordinary function. It does just so happen to not force what you give it, if it's a lazy seq
16:54	S11001001	as Sgeo_ says
16:54	Sgeo_	$heval (const 5) (1/0)
16:54	lazybot	⇒ 5
16:55	Sgeo_	,((constantly 5) (/ 1 0))
16:55	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
16:55	Sgeo_	In the former, the arguments are lazily evaluated. The 1/0 is never even done
16:55	Sgeo_	In the latter, even though (constantly 5) ignores its argument, the argument is still evaluated
16:56	Sgeo_	Thus the blow up
16:56	Sgeo_	,((constantly 5) (repeat 3))
16:56	clojurebot	5
16:57	Sgeo_	In this case, (repeat 3) is evaluated. However, all it returns is an object that, when something asks, will give back stuff
16:57	Sgeo_	Although it is in principle an infinite sequence, it is such that it doesn't try to store all of them at once.
16:57	Sgeo_	However, the (repeat 3) still does get evaluated.
16:57	Sgeo_	S11001001, is that a clear demonstration?
16:57	Sgeo_	uvtc, does this help?
16:58	uvtc	(sorry, distracted --- family came home ... just a minute)
16:58	S11001001	Sgeo_: yes
16:59	Sgeo_	So glad lazybot can do Haskell >.>
16:59	S11001001	constantly is particularly good for examples; in truly nonstrict languages, the evaluation behavior of the second arg is totally irrelevant by definition
16:59	S11001001	as Sgeo_ showed were I to scroll back up more :)
17:01	uvtc	Sgeo_, I'm not familiar with `const`. I don't see any docs for it, and it's not listed at clojuredocs...
17:02	Sgeo_	uvtc, $heval does Haskell, not Clojure
17:03	Sgeo_	const in Haskell is similar to constantly in Clojure
17:03	Sgeo_	With the illustrated difference, due to Haskell being nonstrict and Clojure being strict.
17:03	brehaut	(inc Sgeo_)
17:03	lazybot	⇒ 1
17:03	brehaut	^ points for semantic pedantry
17:03	Sgeo_	lol
17:04	Sgeo_	I personally don't actually understand the difference between nonstrictness and laziness, but I vaguely know there is one.
17:04	brehaut	likewise :P
17:04	brehaut	i think bottom is involved?
17:04	Sgeo_	I _think_ that laziness is a way of being nonstrict but not the only way?
17:05	Sgeo_	As in, laziness is a subset of nonstrictness? I may be totally wrong though
17:07	uvtc	Sgeo_, Ok, I see what you mean. ((constantly 5) x) evaluates x (which is why ((constantly 5) (/ 1 0)) blows up), but although it evaluates the arg in ((constantly 5) (repeat 3)) , `repeat` returns a lazy result. I'm just used to seeing look non-lazy because I evaluate it in the repl.
17:08	Sgeo_	uvtc, correct.
17:08	uvtc	Thanks, Sgeo_ !
17:08	Sgeo_	<elliott> Sgeo_: Non-strictness is about operational semantics.
17:08	Sgeo_	<elliott> Laziness is a certain implementation strategy of non-strictness (call by need).
17:13	xeqi	uvtc: looks like you got an answer, and there was a better solution using partition w/ 4 args later
17:14	uvtc	Hi xeqi, Yes, thanks. I was going to look at that one next, but I got stuck on the first one. :) Now I'm just writing up some notes before continuing.
17:21	Sgeo_	How often are there questions about Clojure's nonstrictness or lack thereof?
17:22	brehaut	not that often
17:25	Sgeo_	brehaut, aww
17:25	Sgeo_	That means less opportunity for me to be helpful
17:25	Sgeo_	I don't actually know much Clojure
17:26	Sgeo_	I had to check the cheatsheat to see that repeat actually exists
17:55	brehaut	Sgeo_: most of the clojure questions about laziness are around people mistakenly putting side effecting logic or accessing dynamic bindings in lazy code
17:56	Sgeo_	Ah
17:57	Sgeo_	8:24 of the second song in [S] Jane: Enter?
17:58	Sgeo_	....wrong channel
17:59	pepijndevos	is there something like vim starterpack?
18:02	gfredericks	no, vim is completely ideal by default
18:10	gfredericks	is there a java/clojure library that can easily compute distance between two lat/lng pairs?
18:12	mwillhite	quick google: http://openmap.bbn.com/
18:12	mwillhite	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/120283/working-with-latitude-longitude-values-in-java
18:14	gfredericks	mwillhite: thx; you're apparently a better googler than I
18:37	semperos	gfredericks: the GeoTools lib is part of a larger suite of open source geo tools that get a lot of development attention, have been quite impressed
18:38	kay__	hat are they
18:39	kay__	what*
18:42	semperos	kay__: see the right-hand sidebar of this page for a list of the OSGeo projects: http://www.osgeo.org/
18:42	timvisher	is mmcgrana ever ever on here?
18:43	kay__	nice
18:44	technomancy	timvisher: he doesn't really do IRC
18:53	timvisher	technomancy: what's the best way to try to get him to look at one of the issues on ring-json-params?
18:56	Sgeo_	You know, this might have been a better illustration
18:56	Sgeo_	,(class (repeat 3))
18:56	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
18:56	amalloy	timvisher: break into his house and staple a printout of a screenshot on the ceiling above his bed
18:56	technomancy	timvisher: he's pretty hard to get a hold of, but he's pretty good at delegating to others when he doesn't have the bandwidth. doesn't weavejester mostly handle ring these days?
19:25	timvisher	amalloy, technomancy: makes sense. I wasn't aware that weavejester had taken over. I can open an issue there.
19:25	timvisher	thanks
19:41	amalloy	well, i never expected "makes sense" as a response to my suggestion
19:50	arrdem	anyone here worked with fnparse?
19:56	timvisher	amalloy: yeah, do you have his address?
19:58	gfredericks	timvisher: I think it would be funny if he said "yeah I'll pm you" and that was all either of you said on the topic
19:59	technomancy	other than "/me writes note to self to restock staples" maybe
20:00	timvisher	gfredericks: I agree. shame he's not playing along ;)
20:01	timvisher	so turns out that weavejester never forked ring-json-params, sadly
20:01	timvisher	is it considered an ok practice to upload a custom version of a standard library to clojars?
20:02	brehaut	timvisher: as long as you use your own group id
20:03	technomancy	oh, it's not part of ring proper?
20:03	timvisher	nope
20:03	timvisher	brehaut: ah, i see that now
20:04	brehaut	arrdem: yes
20:04	brehaut	arrdem: im pretty sure it hasnt been updated for even clj 1.3
20:05	brehaut	arrdem: at this point its pretty much abandonware
20:26	timvisher	does anyone think that leaving body in a consumed state is a good idea for wrap-json-params?
20:26	timvisher	i can't see the reasoning behind it
20:27	timvisher	seems better to turn it into a string and then try to parse it, so that you can do something sensible with the data rather than having a consumed object in that spot
20:28	arrdem	brehaut: yeah it really is abandonware... I see a couple people who have updated it themselves but there aren't lein packages for the updates. I had a question about writing recursive definitions becuause what I had wasn't working. Then I re-thought my BNF and the light of heaven shown down on me and all was resolved.
20:29	technomancy	timvisher: a consumed reader? yeah that seems silly but I don't see why it would hurt
20:29	brehaut	arrdem: ok cool
20:34	timvisher	technomancy: basically, if you're trying to be nice to your clients and give them plenty of data back as far as why they're request failed, one of the things I'd want is the body that I sent. But with wrap-json-params consuming body and then throwing an exception, I have no way of getting at it because it's been consumed.
20:34	timvisher	that seem to make sense?
20:35	timvisher	so if you're trying to parse json, then assuming you can get it as a string seems to be a good idea
20:35	timvisher	i guess the problem might be if someone is malicious and sends you a 500 MB movie or something like that and you try to read the whole thing into a string
20:38	emezeske	timvisher: FWIW, I like to enforce POST parameter size limits at the web server layer (e.g. in nginx.conf), and let the webapp itself be oblivious. YMMV, though.
20:46	timvisher	emezeske: interesting option! I hadn't thought of that
20:46	timvisher	i assume jetty can do similar things
20:53	gfredericks	omg guys logic programming is so much fun.
20:55	llasram	gfredericks: It looks like it! I still haven't found anything cool do with it yet though :-(
20:57	llasram	What are you solving with it?
20:57	gfredericks	a few years back I had written a crappy-javascript AI for a game that my sister apparently still plays against and she wanted me to make it easier. So I'm just rewriting it in core.logic.
20:57	llasram	Oh, cool
21:14	muhoo	&(keyword (.toString ns) "fubar")
21:14	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! class clojure.lang.Namespace is bad!
21:15	gfredericks	muhoo: yes?
21:15	mthvedt__	are there any good docs/tutorials for core.logic
21:15	mthvedt__	besides "read the reasoned schemer"
21:16	gfredericks	nothing that compares to that
21:50	muhoo	i'm trying to figure out a way to serialize namespaced keywords to json couch and back again
21:54	adu	muhoo: namespaced?
21:54	muhoo	fully qualified :foo.bar/baz not :baz
21:59	nDuff	muhoo: I'm not sure a fully generalized solution is possible for that, since anything JSON can represent already has a meaning in Clojure
22:01	muhoo	i'm just going to do (keyword (.toString ns) foo)
22:11	gfredericks	wait what? what's wrong with {"foo.bar/baz": 12}?
22:12	echo-area	gfredericks: There's an extra colon there
22:13	gfredericks	echo-area: eh? I ment it as JSON
22:24	xeqi	technomancy: ... it worked for me
22:27	xeqi	argh, refheap middle click
22:28	xeqi	technomancy: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3115
22:29	xeqi	heh, wrong chan
22:58	Raynes	xeqi: I'd care more about that if I had a computer that had a mouse that had a middle click and if I actually would use it if I did have one.
22:58	Raynes	xeqi: I've been hoping somebody would care enough to fix it, since it's all Javascript crap that I'm unfamiliar with in the first place. :\
22:59	xeqi	I'm surprised it hasn't been fixed upstream
23:36	lynaghk	Has anyone used goog.inherits to extend a goog Closure library object in ClojureScript?
23:40	devn	lynaghk: https://bitbucket.org/puffnfresh/cajole/src/efb0ae91bad5/src/cajole/editor.cljs
23:41	lynaghk	devn: sweet, thanks
23:41	devn	lynaghk: thank google ;)
23:41	devn	(my speciality)
23:42	muhoo	is there a more concise form of : (if pred (assoc m :bah "stuff") m) ?
23:42	devn	lynaghk: im curious now
23:42	devn	lynaghk: what does it do?
23:42	devn	muhoo: erm, i dont think so?
23:42	muhoo	kind of an if-assoc, that'll return the map without the assoc if the pred isn't truthy?
23:43	devn	write one. ;)
23:43	lynaghk	devn: I'm trying to put something clickable within an item in a goog.ui.PopupMenu. However, by default onBlur the popup menu will hide
23:43	muhoo	well, sure, but in clojure "there's a function for that!" seems to be common
23:45	devn	muhoo: fair enough, but the list is only so long
23:46	gfredericks	muhoo: I think you want fix from flatland/useful
23:46	devn	muhoo: that seems like a "nice to have which is easily written"
23:46	amalloy	(inc gfredericks)
23:46	lazybot	⇒ 6
23:47	amalloy	oh man. the karma plugin should keep track of where your karma comes from. that way when they see all my karma comes from clojurebot, they'll know i was just gaming the system
23:47	devn	muhoo: i think you want to probably not pull in useful as a dependency and just add the function yourself
23:48	muhoo	gfredericks: that's hilarious, i was just thinking "hmm, i should see if it's in useful"
23:49	gfredericks	devn: he wants to do that over and over again in each of his projects
23:49	clojurebot	No entiendo
23:49	gfredericks	I guess if everybody used useful that could get complicated though
23:50	gfredericks	dependencies are hard
23:50	gfredericks	we need inline dependencies
23:50	devn	gfredericks: yeah, it just is a lot to swallow. it seems like about 20 different dependecies to me
23:50	devn	dependencies
23:50	muhoo	no SHIT. i'm still dealing with a crazy hairball with jackson
23:50	amalloy	i wonder how many people actually do. the maintenance is sorta cowboyish in places; if like everyone is using it maybe we should figure out a way to be more careful
23:50	muhoo	well, i decided to punt for now, but i will have to deal with it before heroku goes with lein2
23:51	amalloy	but i doubt everyone is, really. that would be a good problem to have
23:51	gfredericks	amalloy: I mostly just constantly wish I was using it
23:51	gfredericks	mumbling to myself about how I could use fix here or there
23:51	amalloy	tbh, for muhoo's case (where pred is a value, not a function of m) fix has some sharp edges
23:52	devn	why not just write the fn yourself?
23:52	devn	it's pretty straightforward, no?
23:52	gfredericks	based on trying to distinguish between values and functions?
23:53	muhoo	i did write, but it's super ugly: https://www.refheap.com/paste/3116
23:53	devn	that's not ugly to me
23:53	amalloy	gfredericks: yes
23:53	gfredericks	oh man devn is flirting with muhoo's function in public
23:53	devn	lol
23:54	muhoo	devn: really? watch amalloy turn it into one line with 5 symbols :-)
23:54	devn	stop golfing, brother.
23:54	amalloy	that's the sort of thing ninjudd likes to do a lot more than i do
23:54	gfredericks	you're prettier than you think you are, little function
23:54	muhoo	devn: fair
23:54	devn	muhoo: golfing is fancy. it's interesting, but clever and fancy. just write the goddamn mother fucking code.
23:55	gfredericks	copy, paste, getirdone
23:55	muhoo	i do plenty of that, for sure.
23:55	devn	lol. i dont want to advocate copy and paste or doing it wrong on purpose for the sake of deadlines or what have you
23:55	muhoo	clojure does impel me towards elegance, even golf, at times.
23:55	devn	but preoccupation with LOC and so on can really kill the spirit
23:55	devn	the shitty code i've written in clojure is better than its imperative mutable equivalent
23:56	devn	i need to remind me of that
23:56	devn	s/me/myself
23:56	devn	gfredericks: lol
23:57	devn	amalloy: any thoughts of splitting up useful into a more modular set of dependencies?
23:58	gfredericks	useful.logic
23:58	gfredericks	useful.jdbc
23:58	gfredericks	useful.match
23:58	gfredericks	useful.php
23:58	devn	i really cringe when i decide ill pull in useful and the kitchen sink and an in-unit dishwasher/lawnmower. I just want seq.clj sometimes. Sure I can require that, but id rather it be spelled out in the project's deps. It feels less dirty.
23:58	lynaghk	devn: that link you sent totally worked. I'm in awe; I've been fighting with this one for hours. thanks again!
23:59	devn	useful.hair-dryer
23:59	amalloy	too much hassle, both to maintain and to use. if it were actually being used as much as old-contrib, it would be worthwhile/necessary
23:59	devn	lynaghk: no problemo
23:59	gfredericks	I think muhoo should fork useful and call it mooseful
23:59	amalloy	the "size" of the dependency is only cognitive load anyway - the jar is not large
23:59	devn	muhoosful