#clojure – 2012-04-30

2012-04-30

00:07	muhoo	AOT compilation is good on heroku to reduce spin-up times. however, AOT is not good for cljs, i'm told. should i bother trying?
00:20	emezeske	muhoo: AOT compiling the cljs compiler will appear to work, but you will run into subtle problems
00:20	emezeske	muhoo: That's (partially) why I wrote lein-cljsbuild, so that I could do all the cljs compilation at dev time
00:23	Raynes	ibdknox: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-gitify
00:30	Caomai	!reset
00:35	technomancy	you can get the AST out of Ruby, it's just not part of the stable API, so it breaks during minor version bumps
00:35	technomancy	http://rubyforge.org/projects/parsetree/
00:37	technomancy	it sounds like the reasoning is along the lines of "we value the ability to change things easily over the ability to make good tooling?
00:38	ibdknox	technomancy: interesting
00:39	Raynes	technomancy: https://github.com/Raynes/lein-gitify My answer to "plz rite git tmplat
00:39	Raynes	"
00:39	ibdknox	I saw that and didn't realize it was official
00:39	Raynes	technomancy: Do you approve?
00:39	technomancy	Raynes: this makes me think that templates should compose
00:40	technomancy	not that I have any idea how that would look, but it makes you wonder
00:40	Raynes	This makes me have no idea what you're talking about and why you want to make things even more complex than they are.
00:40	ibdknox	Raynes: that's neat
00:40	ibdknox	I do that a lot
00:40	ibdknox	and am annoyed by it
00:40	ibdknox	so well done
00:40	ibdknox	lol
00:42	Raynes	technomancy: I think I get what you're saying, but this isn't a template.
00:42	Raynes	technomancy: I thought about it more, and this couldn't really be a template.
00:42	Raynes	It is exactly what a Leiningen plugin is for.
00:42	Raynes	We could have extended existing templates to add the functionality, but that seems like overkill.
00:43	Raynes	Anyways, I'm off. We can talk more about this stuff later.
00:43	Raynes	<3
00:47	yoklov	Hm, anybody know how javascript's `this` ends up working in a multimethod?
00:47	ibdknox	almost guaranteedly not how you'd want it to
00:48	ibdknox	you probably want to pass this in
00:49	yoklov	i'm trying to use it as an onload callback
00:50	yoklov	but… yeah.
00:50	yoklov	pretty much doesnt work how i'd like
01:21	muhoo	is there a cleaner way to do this kind of destructuring: https://refheap.com/paste/2455 ?
01:22	yoklov	why not (defn save! [{:keys [email name picture]}])
01:22	yoklov	or (defn save! [{:keys [email name picture] :as m}])
01:22	yoklov	but i'm tired and there might be a difference there i'm not picking up on
01:29	Raynes	muhoo: Define 'cleaner'?
01:30	Raynes	muhoo: You can do the destructuring in the argument list.
01:30	Raynes	Usually it's better to do it in a let though, like you have here.
01:30	Raynes	I don't see anything wrong with this.
01:30	yoklov	Raynes: why is it usually better to do it in a let?
01:30	Raynes	&(meta #'println)
01:30	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name println, :arglists ([& more]), :added "1.0", :static true, :doc "Same as print followed by (newline)", :line 3325, :file "clojure/core.clj"}
01:31	yoklov	arglist metadata?
01:31	Raynes	yoklov: If you do it in the argument list, the :arglists keys gets that destructuring form. It makes it ugly.
01:31	yoklov	that makes sense.
01:31	Raynes	It makes API documentation cleaner.
01:31	Raynes	Unless, of course, you want to document the destructuring. Usually you don't though.
01:32	yoklov	yeah and it gets ugly after a while if you have a couple things being destructured
01:32	yoklov	tends to make the arglist huge.
01:33	yoklov	thanks, i think i'll try to do that.
01:37	muhoo	interesting, thanks
02:09	mebaran151	does lein2 no longer make a lib directory for dependencies?
02:13	muhoo	hmm, i like this render thing in noir, but control-r resubmits the form that way
02:15	muhoo	oic, i should only be doing that upon error
02:16	raek	mebaran151: lein2 does not copy the files anymore. it uses the files from ~/.m2/ directly
02:20	jhickner	does lein-swank work with leiningen 2?
02:21	jhickner	getting a weird error: Incompatible minimum and maximum heap sizes specified
02:25	_KY_	How do I generate all possible pairs from (1 2 3 4...)?
02:25	_KY_	Like (1 2) (one 3) (one 4)... (2 3) (2 4)...
02:26	_KY_	Like (1 2) (1 3) (1 4)... (2 3) (2 4)...
02:26	jhickner	(let [a '(1 2 3)] (for [x a y a] [x y]))
02:27	_KY_	I see...=)
02:28	jhickner	(take 20 (let [a (iterate inc 1)] (for [x a y a] [x y])))
02:28	LuminousMonkey	Nice
02:29	LuminousMonkey	Hmm actually, that last one won't work properly?
02:29	jhickner	heh, with that actually all you get is pairs of [1 to n] where n approaches infinity :)
02:30	emezeske	&(= (take 5 (range)) (take 5 (iterate inc 1)))
02:30	lazybot	⇒ false
02:31	emezeske	&(for [x (range 1 5) y (range 1 5)] [x y])
02:31	lazybot	⇒ ([1 1] [1 2] [1 3] [1 4] [2 1] [2 2] [2 3] [2 4] [3 1] [3 2] [3 3] [3 4] [4 1] [4 2] [4 3] [4 4])
02:37	_KY_	It's funny that I posted this answer a few days ago... and I'm asking for it today
02:39	justinlilly	hi all. -- anyone have thoughts as to how these two are different? carousel-entry gets called with the same arguments, but doesn't do what its expected in the loop example but works in the for example. Any thoughts? http://pastebin.com/67PAnksL
02:40	justinlilly	hrm. nevermind. I think the difference is that the value isn't being accumulated properly.
02:43	muhoo	ibdknox: would you be open to additions to noir to make form handling more abstract and less bolierplatey?
02:43	muhoo	or do you want to keep it kind of thin?
02:44	ibdknox	muhoo: do you have an example?
02:44	muhoo	not in clojure, but in other frameworks
02:45	muhoo	like, maybe pass in a map and get back the add and edit forms
02:45	muhoo	with save/add buttons already placed and laid out
02:45	muhoo	the routing created
02:45	ibdknox	definitely sounds like a companion lib :)
02:45	muhoo	i've just done tons of copy/pasting and it seems very unclojureish to do it that way
02:46	muhoo	i'll see what i can come up with.
02:46	ibdknox	in my experience those things can't really be usefully generalized, but I don't always work with "normal" stuff :)
02:47	muhoo	i'm doing very normal stuff. :-)
02:48	ibdknox	sounds like a great thing to add to the ecosystem though :)
02:48	ibdknox	nobody likes boilerplate lol
02:49	muhoo	yeah, i mean, 100 lines of view code to handle a tiny form with 3 fields seems way too much to me, but, then again, in other languages that'd probably be several hundred lines
02:53	justinlilly	Is there an easy way to determine if you're on your first iteration in a (for) ?
02:53	justinlilly	I'm resorting to loop-recur and I'm making a mess of it all :-/
03:01	emezeske	justinlilly: What are you trying to do?
03:03	justinlilly	emezeske: (myfn arg (if (first-iteration?) :first))
03:03	justinlilly	so on 3 iterations: (myfn arg :first) (myfn arg) (myfn arg)
03:04	justinlilly	I finally managed to get something working, but it feels awful.
03:05	emezeske	justinlilly: Hmm, I think I'd need more context to be able to help
03:05	justinlilly	http://pastebin.com/50uZVxk9
03:06	justinlilly	this is currently working. I was hoping to have something more akin to the for loop commented out. Any tips would be appreciated.
03:07	emezeske	justinlilly: Regarding your first comment, "some" is the right way to do that.
03:07	emezeske	justinlilly: regarding the div id, just do [:div {:id ...}, if you need to set it based on what's passed in
03:07	justinlilly	This just feels like a lot of work for what seems like (in python) for i, foo in enumerate(bar):...
03:09	emezeske	I'm looking at your loop atm
03:09	emezeske	I think what you need is map-indexed
03:12	justinlilly	Thanks. I'll play around with it :)
03:14	emezeske	Paste incoming in a sec
03:15	emezeske	justinlilly: Totally untested: http://pastebin.com/0gECfXMz
03:16	emezeske	justinlilly: Oops, there's a bug, sec
03:17	emezeske	justinlilly: There we go: http://pastebin.com/LZXwxZ44
03:20	emezeske	haha I should have tested it: http://pastebin.com/32k0w2qF ^_^
03:20	justinlilly	yep. :) Totally works.
03:20	justinlilly	nice to know that my "this should be easier" filter is working. Now I just need to learn my way around the stdlib.
03:21	justinlilly	so & [id] in method args makes id an optional, positional argument?
03:21	emezeske	Yeah, it's an idiomatic trick to do that. It's value will be nil if not supplied
03:22	_KY_	Is "clojure-contrib-1.1.0.jar" needed if I did not use it explicitly?
03:22	emezeske	~contrib
03:22	clojurebot	Monolithic clojure.contrib has been split up in favor of smaller, actually-maintained libs. Transition notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
03:22	emezeske	_KY_: ^
03:22	justinlilly	In python, I would probably do this as: defn carousel(cool, id="myCarousel"): .. is there a nifty way to do kwargs?
03:22	justinlilly	s/cool/coll
03:23	emezeske	justinlilly: Yeah, I think it's like [a b c & {:keys [id] :or [:id "myCarousel"]}]
03:23	emezeske	justinlilly: That might be a bit wrong, though, I don't do that too much
03:24	justinlilly	yea. doesn't look pretty. This works for me for now. Thanks for your help :)
03:24	emezeske	No problem!
03:25	emezeske	I am still a noob myself, so I try to help with the problems I can for practice
03:26	mmarczyk	anybody willing to run some cljs data structure perf tests? links in http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-190?focusedCommentId=28320#comment-28320
03:33	_KY_	There are some large jar files in the lein directory that I don't want to upload to the repository... what can I do?
03:35	emezeske	Could you be more specific about what the "lein directory" and the "repository" are?
03:38	emezeske	_KY_: ^
03:38	_KY_	The project directory created by lein
03:38	_KY_	And I want to upload the project to google code
03:39	_KY_	But I don't want to include jars such as clojure-1.3.0.jar
03:39	LuminousMonkey	Are you using Git, Mercurial?
03:39	emezeske	So, just set the subversion ignore property?
03:40	_KY_	Mercurial
03:40	LuminousMonkey	Create .hgignore in the directory.
03:40	_KY_	So, later if a user checks it out, they can find the jars automatically?
03:40	_KY_	I already did that... just worrying if the users can't run it
03:41	LuminousMonkey	lein deps should take care of getting the jars?
03:41	emezeske	IIRC you don't want to use lein, right?
03:41	LuminousMonkey	Ohhh.
03:41	_KY_	I am using lein by default
03:41	LuminousMonkey	Geez, why not use lein? :P
03:41	emezeske	Oh, then 'lein deps'
03:41	LuminousMonkey	:)
03:41	_KY_	Just planning to provide the option of not using it (but that will be later)
03:42	_KY_	I see... so they'll run "lein deps" first
03:42	LuminousMonkey	Just make sure they're ignored by Mercurial and that lein deps pulls them in.
03:42	emezeske	_KY_: Look at the .gitignore file that "lein new" made for you -- you'll likely want to translate that whole thing to .hgignore (or whatever it is)
03:43	LuminousMonkey	A dirty way is to rename .gitignore to .hgignore and add a line "syntax: glob" at the top.
03:43	emezeske	_KY_: Also, "lein deps" of course assumes that you have set your :dependencies in the project.clj file appropriately
03:43	emezeske	LuminousMonkey: nice!
03:43	faust45	hi guys
03:43	_KY_	Great...
03:44	LuminousMonkey	emezeske: I use Mercurial. :)
03:44	faust45	can any one suggest how i can make code reloading in runtime. notice (require 'test :reload) i try it but not working
03:46	LuminousMonkey	faust45: I don't know how to do it, trying to look.
03:49	LuminousMonkey	Could try adding :verbose to see what is going on?
03:50	faust45	LuminousMonkey: :verbose ? which place
03:51	LuminousMonkey	(require 'test :verbose) Should print info about what it's loading in.
03:51	LuminousMonkey	So (require 'test :verbose :reload)
03:51	faust45	not :reload ?
03:51	faust45	ok
03:51	faust45	thanks
03:52	LuminousMonkey	See what it's trying to load, maybe you need :reload-all instead?
03:52	LuminousMonkey	I'm new to Clojure, so I have no idea.
03:54	faust45	LuminousMonkey: https://friendpaste.com/4OzVMOWaDnAnFhUtemklbd
03:55	LuminousMonkey	And it's not updating your functions, etc? What are you trying to do exactly?
03:57	_KY_	"hg add" does not seem to ignore the jar files or any files I told it to ignore in .hgignore
03:57	LuminousMonkey	_KY_: Could you paste your .hgignore file?
03:58	_KY_	http://pastebin.com/GbtB5s5A
03:59	LuminousMonkey	Line 23-24 should be clojure\lib\*.jar?
04:00	LuminousMonkey	Hmm, here's mine: http://pastebin.com/qppwYnxQ
04:00	_KY_	I thought it would apply to all sub dirs?
04:01	LuminousMonkey	It should... I'm wondering if you have to hg add .hgignore I've never noticed if I had to before.
04:02	faust45	LuminousMonkey: i have loop while which wiring accept socket than process http req, in beginning of while i what make (code reload). but routing handler i define object before loop while so when i change handler behavior nothing changed
04:02	_KY_	It doesn't seem to have any effect...
04:02	LuminousMonkey	Ahh, no, it should work without being commited
04:02	_KY_	But it "added" all the crap...
04:03	Raynes	Oh wow, hg users. Quite a rare breed in these parts.
04:04	LuminousMonkey	faust45: You will have to restart your (Jetty?) for it to pick up the changes as well...
04:05	faust45	LuminousMonkey: i am not using Jetty. using org.apache.http
04:05	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Still the same thing I think? I might have an example somewhere...
04:05	_KY_	If I use "hg status" it shows the unwanted files
04:06	LuminousMonkey	Raynes: I'm thinking of moving to git. :)
04:06	Raynes	I highly support this thought.
04:06	LuminousMonkey	faust45: https://gist.github.com/2495345
04:07	faust45	LuminousMonkey: https://friendpaste.com/4OzVMOWaDnAnFhUtemkkyZ
04:07	LuminousMonkey	faust45: That's the code I use for my webapp using jetty. I've just recently found out about the #' which causes that var to be reread on each access. You might be having a similar issue?
04:08	faust45	LuminousMonkey: dunno
04:10	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Really out of my area now. On line 53: (.handleRequest #'http-service conn context)
04:11	faust45	LuminousMonkey: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: http-service in this context, compiling
04:13	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Beyond me I'm sorry, when I was using the Jetty stuff, using :reload, I had to start and stop the jetty process for it to pick up the changes.
04:13	faust45	LuminousMonkey: #' mean re tead var?
04:13	faust45	re read
04:14	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Yeah, though, that won't work, I think you need line 48 to be rerun after your require on line 51 as well...
04:15	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Sorry, I really have no idea.
04:15	faust45	LuminousMonkey: how i can assign var in while loop?
04:17	LuminousMonkey	faust45: Could make it an atom or something?
04:18	faust45	LuminousMonkey: maybe but its depend on other vars in let block
04:20	faust45	LuminousMonkey: any case thanks!
04:24	LuminousMonkey	Raynes: Makes sense to switch to Git since everyone seems to use Github. :)
04:25	LuminousMonkey	faust45: I'll take any compliment on my useless ramblings, thanks. :)
04:34	tutysra_	hi room
04:35	tutysra_	how do i use clojure.math.combinatorics package in my code
04:36	tutysra_	i am getting an exception - Could not locate clojure/math/combinatorics__init.class or clojure/math/combinatorics.clj on classpath on SLIME repl, I am running clojure1.3 - this is the output from clojure-version - {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
04:41	tutysra_	i guess clojure.contrib.combinatorics was moved into clojure.math.combinatorics from version 1.3, should i have to include any separate config details in project.clj to use these functions?
04:53	tutysra_	ok, got the solution from src (pom file) - included 0.2.2 version. thx.
05:16	mengu_	what one must read in order to understand the fundementals of clojure?
05:17	lucian	try http://www.clojurebook.com/
05:18	mengu_	lucian: i'm already reading "programming clojure"
05:19	mengu_	but then it took me some time to understand that (let [x y]) means x = y in that scope
06:31	benson	Hello Room
06:55	ssedano1	Hi, I want to create Properties. Is clojure.java.data the best choice?
06:59	ssedano1	or I just (def prop (doto (java.util.Properties.) (.putAll {:myKey "n"})))
08:49	mduerksen	hmm, max-key prefers the latter argument when (k x) and (k y) are equal. is this considered an implementation detail, or can i rely on it?
08:54	fdaoud	mduerksen: if they are equal, why do you need to care which one it returns?
08:56	mduerksen	fdaoud: it matters when x and y have the same key-value, but are otherwise different, like here: ##(max-key {:timestamp 1 :value "bla"} {:timestamp 3 :value "blub"})
08:56	lazybot	⇒ {:timestamp 3, :value "blub"}
08:56	mduerksen	##(max-key {:timestamp 1 :value "blub"} {:timestamp 3 :value "bla"})
08:56	lazybot	⇒ {:timestamp 3, :value "bla"}
08:57	mduerksen	in my case, i want to merge 2 hash-maps, the "old" one and the "new" one. and only when the "new" one has an older timestamp should the old one "win"
08:59	mduerksen	a wait, my example was of course wrong: ##(max-key {:timestamp 1 :value "bla"} {:timestamp 1 :value "blub"})
08:59	lazybot	⇒ {:timestamp 1, :value "blub"}
08:59	mduerksen	and ##(max-key {:timestamp 1 :value "blub"} {:timestamp 1 :value "bla"})
08:59	lazybot	⇒ {:timestamp 1, :value "bla"}
09:01	bhenry	#(apply merge (if (> (:timestamp %1) (:timestamp %2)) [%1 %2] [%2 %1]))
09:01	bhenry	mduerksen: hacky, but simple
09:01	mduerksen	but my question remains: i can only merge with max-key if i can be certain that max-key will always prefer the latter argument. otherwise i'll have to write something like bhenry just wrote
09:03	mduerksen	bhenry: i know i can write my own dedicated conflict function, but i hoped i could use the more elegant one from clojure.core. i'm inclined to do so, because merge itself has similar semantics (left-to-right), but since the doc for max-key doesn't explicitly say so (as opposed to merge), i'm not sure if its a good idea
09:04	fdaoud	mduerksen: I think you're right
09:04	mduerksen	it could break in future versions, except if the function commits itself to its current semantics with its doc
09:06	mduerksen	but i would love to write this: (merge-with (partial max-key :timestamp) old-apps new-apps)
09:09	bhenry	irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/#%23(max-key :timestamp {:timestamp 1 :value "blub"} {:timestamp 1 :value "bla"})
09:38	dgrnbrg	hey clojurians, I just released a branch coverage analyzer for clojure
09:39	dgrnbrg	it's kind of rough around the edges, so if you give the plugin a shot and find an issue, let me know :) [lein-guzheng "0.2.3"]
09:40	mdeboard	dgrnbrg: as in test coverage?
09:40	dgrnbrg	yeah
09:41	dgrnbrg	It's a trampoline task, so you can run any other lein task under the instrumentation
09:41	dgrnbrg	Suppose you want to see the coverage report for ns foo.core
09:41	dgrnbrg	when you run all the unit tests
09:41	dgrnbrg	lein guzheng foo.core -- test
09:41	dgrnbrg	or maybe you want to see which parts of foo.core don't get executed when you run the program normally:
09:42	dgrnbrg	lein guzheng foo.core -- run
09:42	wmealing	will this work for things like midje ?
09:42	dgrnbrg	after the -- is any other lein test
09:42	dgrnbrg	the idea is that it'll work for anything
09:42	wmealing	nice
09:42	dgrnbrg	it hooks eval-in-project to reinstrument the given namespaces before running the task
09:42	dgrnbrg	and then after they finish, it prints a report
09:42	dgrnbrg	it's a work in progress, so when you find bugs, let me know
09:43	mdeboard	neat
09:59	jweiss	i'm a little confused how load-file works. "The loading functions occur in a temporary context, in which ns has a fresh binding. That means that, should any form have an effect on that var (e.g. `in-namespace), the effect will unwind at the completion of the load." what exactly does that mean?
10:00	jweiss	a "fresh binding" to what?
10:00	jweiss	a gensym'd ns, essentially?
10:01	jweiss	that just doesn't seem to be true, it seems to load the file into the current namespace.
10:02	jweiss	i guess it means it's just run in a binding form, but with the same value as the current ns?
10:03	sattvik	jweiss: I think so, i.e. (binding [ns ns] (file contents))
10:07	_KY_	How do I specify to "read" from standard input?
10:07	_KY_	ie, what's the name of the stream for standard input
10:07	sattvik	_KY_: in, thought it can be rebound
10:08	_KY_	It works in REPL, but in Lein, input is frozen
10:09	sattvik	_KY_: Ah, yes. I just finished dealing with that issue. Is this within an eval-in-project?
10:09	_KY_	It's in a test
10:09	sattvik	That generally won't work. It should work if you use trampoline, i.e. 'lein trampoline test'.
10:10	_KY_	What does trampoline do?
10:11	sattvik	It makes the task run within Leiningen rather than in a subprocess.
10:11	dgrnbrg	other way around, sattvik, iirc
10:11	dgrnbrg	trampoline runs in a subprocess, normally just runs in a new classloader
10:12	_KY_	I see...
10:14	sattvik	Still, you may want to reconsider whether or not you want to have a test that relies on console I/O. For testing something that relies on in, you could use something like (with-in-str).
10:16	sattvik	dgrnbrg: You may be right; I haven't actually looked at the code. For plug-ins, it seems like I/O within in eval-in-project context seems to require sockets if no trampoline is involved.
10:16	dgrnbrg	that would make sense, since lein probably is hooking all the streams into the project
10:17	dgrnbrg	since every plugin you install can mess with those things
10:39	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
10:39	timvisher	is it expected that defrecord performs an order of magnitude worse than a hash-map unless you do the lookup many times?
10:39	timvisher	hi hcumberdale
10:40	timvisher	RE defrecord/hash-map: in terms of speed of field lookup
10:40	hcumberdale	does anyone know how amazon s3 bucket & key correspond to the url
10:41	timvisher	as far as i understood things, field lookup is supposed to be _way_ faster with a record, but i see performance gains of about double when I dotimes 1000000 but they take longer to construct, it seems, and the field lookup is slow in the beginning
10:41	hcumberdale	https://s3.amazonaws.com/<bucket>/<key> << right?
10:41	timvisher	which leads me to believe that even in the case of performance optimization, you would only want to use defrecord in low-write, high read situations
10:42	timvisher	hcumberdale: are you referring to objectid as key?
10:42	hcumberdale	yes
10:43	hcumberdale	I'm using the framework https://github.com/weavejester/clj-aws-s3
10:43	hcumberdale	I get a map with metadata from the objects
10:43	timvisher	i think it's actually https://<bucket>.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/<objectid>
10:43	hcumberdale	and they contain a "key"
10:43	hcumberdale	timvisher, seems it depends on where the bucket is?!
10:44	timvisher	well, it depends on what end-point you're using
10:44	timvisher	i think end-point is the right term there
10:44	timvisher	you can host the bucket at different server farms
10:44	hcumberdale	Code: NoSuchWebsiteConfiguration
10:44	hcumberdale	Only if you configure the bucket as website
10:44	timvisher	the default is us-east-1
10:44	timvisher	ah
10:44	timvisher	that may be what i'm looking at
10:44	timvisher	:)
10:44	hcumberdale	look at the object properties
10:45	hcumberdale	https://s3.amazonaws.com/mkr_cblog/finished.jpg
10:45	hcumberdale	http:// seems to work too
10:45	timvisher	it's a shame because i was just reading about this last night but i left that book at home
10:46	timvisher	there's a section on this exact topic
10:46	hcumberdale	!google using http://s3.amazonaws.com
10:47	hcumberdale	http://s3.amazonaws.com/bucket/key << seems to be secure
10:48	timvisher	looks interesting: http://onjava.com/pub/a/onjava/2007/11/07/introduction-to-amazon-s3-with-java-and-rest.html?page=last&x-showcontent=text
10:48	timvisher	seems the bucket name can be used as a sub-domain as well
10:48	hcumberdale	I'll write a 305 header router
10:48	jsmonkey	Hi, I am totally new to clojure and want to learn it. Is there any free ebooks or very good free resources?
10:48	hcumberdale	ahhh mean 301
10:49	timvisher	jsmonkey: http://www.4clojure.com/, http://tryclj.com/
10:50	timvisher	oh, and, http://blog.twonegatives.com/tagged/clojure ;)
10:50	jsmonkey	timvisher: thanks! free today and tomrow so thought why not learn something totally different :)
10:51	timvisher	indeed, and now for something completely different…
10:54	nDuff	jsmonkey: if you can grok clojure enough to be effective in it in two days, I'll be very jealous. :)
10:55	jsmonkey	nDuff: since when did I write that I would be effetive in two days :) I have two days off so it is a perfect kickstart to learn a new language.
10:55	hcumberdale	yeah, it works
10:56	hcumberdale	simply generate thumbnails now and the s3 integration is ready
10:56	nDuff	nod -- I wish you luck. If it's something you take to enough to want to buy dead-tree material, by the way, I strongly recommend The Joy Of Clojure.
11:00	mefesto	morning everyone
11:01	mefesto	anyone know how to listen for a window load event using domina?
11:01	mefesto	(events/listen! js/window :load f) isn't working for me
11:04	fdaoud	mefesto: (children/listen! father) isn't working for me either
11:04	fdaoud	j/k :)
11:05	mefesto	fdaoud: is that a recent breakage? :)
11:05	fdaoud	mefesto: it worked well for about 1.5 years, but hasn't worked much since :)
11:23	TimMc	fdaoud: Reproduction instructions?
11:23	TimMc	Err, wait, this is a family channel.
11:26	AWizzArd	How can I do: (into (java.util.HashMap.) {"a" 1}) ?
11:27	timvisher	&(hash-map (java.util.HashMap.))
11:27	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {}
11:27	timvisher	&(hash-map (.put (java.util.HashMap.) "foo" "bar")
11:27	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading, starting at line 1
11:28	timvisher	&(let [t (.put (java.util.HashMap.) "foo" "bar")] (hash-map t))
11:28	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: null
11:28	timvisher	AWizzArd: not sure. ;)
11:29	timvisher	&(let [t (java.util.HashMap.) t2 (.put t2 "foo" "bar")] (hash-map t))
11:29	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: t2 in this context
11:29	timvisher	&(let [t (java.util.HashMap.) t2 (.put t "foo" "bar")] (hash-map t))
11:29	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: {foo=bar}
11:32	fdaoud	TimMc: http://xkcd.com/674/
11:33	yoklov	,(reduce #(doto %1 (.put %2)) (java.util.HashMap.) {"a" 1})
11:33	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: put for class java.util.HashMap>
11:33	yoklov	,(reduce #(doto %1 (.put (%2 0) (%2 1)) (java.util.HashMap.) {"a" 1})
11:33	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:33	yoklov	,(reduce #(doto %1 (.put (%2 0) (%2 1))) (java.util.HashMap.) {"a" 1})
11:33	clojurebot	#<HashMap {a=1}>
11:33	yoklov	,(reduce #(doto %1 (.put (%2 0) (%2 1))) (java.util.HashMap.) {"a" 1 "b" 2 "c" 3})
11:33	clojurebot	#<HashMap {b=2, c=3, a=1}>
11:34	yoklov	that seems to work
11:34	yoklov	though
11:34	yoklov	can't you do
11:34	yoklov	,(java.util.HashMap. {"a" 1})
11:34	clojurebot	#<HashMap {a=1}>
11:35	yoklov	,(java.util.HashMap. {"a" 1 "b" 2 "c" 3})
11:35	clojurebot	#<HashMap {b=2, c=3, a=1}>
11:36	TimMc	fdaoud: I had https://xkcd.com/583/ in mind, actually, but that works too. :-)
11:37	fdaoud	TimMc: lol
12:06	jtoy	is it normal/possible for namespaces to reference each other?
12:07	jtoy	i have a core namespace I want to load and it calls in other namespaces, some of the namespaces need stuff that is in core
12:08	solussd	is it possible for clojure-mode in emacs to highlight symbols in libraries I'm using? E.g. defpage in Noir
12:09	joegallo	jtoy: circularity is not allowed, you have to turn it all into a directed acyclic graph
12:10	joegallo	solussd: yes, let me find a github reference for you
12:13	joegallo	solussd: http://eschulte.me/emacs-starter-kit/starter-kit-lisp.html look for font-lock-add-keywords, under Clojure.
12:13	joegallo	that'll get you started
12:13	jtoy	joegallo: ok, thanks
12:14	jweiss	solussd: you meant telling emacs manually which new symbols to highlight, right?
12:14	jweiss	not just highlighting any symbol from libs
12:17	joegallo	it's relatively easy to have it highlight (def... ) specially, and treat it as a macro, not matter what ... is. not sure if that's in clojure-mode proper yet, these days.
12:18	joegallo	that would get you defpage automatically, of course, which is rather nice.
12:20	joegallo	mmm, doesn't look like it's in. that's unfortunate.
12:23	technomancy	joegallo: it might be in the latest from git?
12:23	technomancy	I need to get a release out; lots of new stuffs in clojure-mode
12:23	napping	can slime recognize an & body) in the argument list and indent as a macro?
12:23	joegallo	not sure, i looked for the magic from my dotfiles and didn't find it. of course, that doesn't mean you didn't do it some other way. ;)
12:24	napping	It doesn't seem to work for me, but I
12:24	technomancy	napping: yes, but then you have code that indents differently whether slime is connected or not, which is kind of gross
12:24	technomancy	napping: I mean, it can do it in CL, not yet with clojure
12:24	napping	that's about what I heard
12:25	hcumberdale	hi :)
12:26	hcumberdale	technomancy, you've also written slamhound right?
12:26	technomancy	hcumberdale: yes, though it's sadly neglected
12:27	hcumberdale	I'd some problems with it when things get complicated
12:27	technomancy	yes, unfortunately it really only works on a subset of ns forms for the time being
12:27	hcumberdale	ahhh ok!
12:27	hcumberdale	Is there another import manager
12:28	technomancy	no, but slamhound is pretty easy to hack on
12:28	technomancy	I even wrote a blog post containing a walkthrough of the codebase
12:28	hcumberdale	and is it possible to shrink the librarys to the functionality really needed?
12:28	technomancy	http://technomancy.us/148
12:30	hcumberdale	thx
12:30	jayunit100	how come (filter #(> 500 %) (range 0 1000)) doesnt run when I simply call (use 'simplefunc ) from the repl
12:31	jayunit100	(but in contrast, (print "okay this is working") does .... )
12:31	TimMc	jayunit100: How do you know it doesn't?
12:32	Raynes	TimMc: It just feels like it isn't running.
12:33	joegallo	You guys are a riot. :)
12:33	jayunit100	:)
12:33	jayunit100	I see what you mean tim
12:33	jayunit100	the input is just being lost.
12:33	jayunit100	forest tree thingy
12:35	jayunit100	im so used to the repl barfing everything out for me.... i forgot that its different when its in a file.
12:36	solussd	joegallo: thanks
12:43	dnolen	lynaghk`:
12:43	dnolen	ping
12:46	technomancy	dgrnbrg: hey, did you consider having the guzheng task argument first?
12:47	technomancy	dgrnbrg: that may feel more natural since the other args can be of unknown lengths, plus then it looks a bit more like a lein test invocation: lein guzheng test my.ns.test my.other.test
12:47	technomancy	just a thought
12:47	technomancy	looking forward to trying this out =)
12:48	technomancy	though I guess the similarity to the test task may be misleading; it would look like the ns args are getting passed to the test task, which isn't the case
12:48	technomancy	so maybe that doesn't make sense
12:49	technomancy	dgrnbrg: you should take a look at the leinjacker lib though; it has compatibility functions to work across lein1 and lein2
13:01	hcumberdale	Is there a thing like "pipe" in clojure
13:01	hcumberdale	For Output to Input Streams?
13:02	hcumberdale	I know the PipedInputStream / PipedOutputStream things,... but there must be an easy way?
13:02	joegallo	like what?
13:02	hcumberdale	??
13:02	lazybot	hcumberdale: Definitely not.
13:03	joegallo	maybe describe more of the problem first (also, how much data are you talking about?)
13:03	hcumberdale	Thumbnails ;) I generate them with http://code.google.com/p/thumbnailator/
13:03	hcumberdale	It writes to an Output Stream
13:03	technomancy	leiningen has a `pump` function to take from an input stream to an output stream
13:04	hcumberdale	amazon s3 API needs an InputStream
13:04	joegallo	that sounds a lot like clojure.java.io/copy, technomancy, yes?
13:04	joegallo	hcumberdale, you can ByteArrayOutputStream to a byte array to a ByteArrayInputStream if you don't mind holding the whole object in memory
13:05	technomancy	yeah, I'm trying to remember why we didn't use copy
13:05	joegallo	you didn't want things to be automatically closed or something?
13:05	hcumberdale	If possible, yes!
13:05	hcumberdale	But copy does IN=>OUT
13:05	napping	PipedInputStream doesn't look bad if you really want a pipe pair
13:06	hcumberdale	I need OUT=>IN
13:06	technomancy	(let [#^"[C" buffer ; uuuugh gross
13:06	hcumberdale	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1225909/most-efficient-way-to-create-inputstream-from-outputstream
13:07	technomancy	ah, c.j.io/copy doesn't flush
13:07	hcumberdale	There is a clojure example with pipes
13:07	hcumberdale	but it has no auto-close, flush,... thigns
13:08	napping	what will be writing into the output stream?
13:10	hcumberdale	(t/of url) (.size 150 150) (.outputFormat "jpg") (.toOutputStream out-stream) )
13:10	hcumberdale	missed out beginning (->
13:13	napping	what is t/of?
13:13	hcumberdale	http://code.google.com/p/thumbnailator/wiki/Examples
13:14	napping	If you want it in memory, asBufferedImage looks convenient
13:14	hcumberdale	maybe it does the stream handling already?
13:15	Frozenlock	If I make a standalone jar with java7 on my machine, will it work with java6?
13:22	hcumberdale	damn, the include does not work
13:22	TimMc	hcumberdale: Are you shelling out?
13:22	hcumberdale	[net.coobird/thumbnailator "0.4.1"]
13:22	hcumberdale	$ ls lib/ \| grep thum
13:22	hcumberdale	thumbnailator-0.4.1.jar
13:23	TimMc	Never mind, completely misread.
13:23	hcumberdale	FileNotFoundException: Could not locate net/coobird/thumbnailator/Thumbnails__init.class ...
13:23	napping	where are you sending the data once you have it?
13:23	hcumberdale	napping amazon s3
13:24	napping	and you can't set up an output stream that goes directly there?
13:24	hcumberdale	no, s3 api uses inputstream
13:25	napping	I've never programmed against S3
13:25	hcumberdale	why does my require not work?
13:27	hcumberdale	It is in my classpath!
13:32	Frozenlock	I'm trying lein-bin (from https://github.com/Raynes/lein-bin). Any idea what should be the file extension for windows?
13:40	hcumberdale	I can't call a static method of an imported java class
13:41	hcumberdale	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: of>
13:41	hcumberdale	damn!
13:44	hcumberdale	(. net.coobird.thumbnailator.Thumbnails (of (as-url "http://s3.amazonaws.com/mkr_cblog/finished.jpg")))
13:44	hcumberdale	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: of>
13:44	hcumberdale	both with / and . ...
13:50	antares_	hcumberdale: is it a static method? are you sure you are passing all the necessary arguments?
13:52	hcumberdale	yes antares_
13:52	antares_	hcumberdale: is it a static method?
13:52	hcumberdale	yes
13:52	hcumberdale	(. net.coobird.thumbnailator.Thumbnails (of (new java.net.URL "http://s3.amazonaws.com/mkr_cblog/finished.jpg")))
13:52	hcumberdale	the method "of"
13:53	hcumberdale	public static Builder<URL> of(URL... urls)
13:53	hcumberdale	maybe the dynamic parameter list is the problem?
13:56	antares_	hcumberdale: yes
13:56	hcumberdale	yes, that was the problem
13:56	hcumberdale	and now,...
13:56	hcumberdale	#<NoClassDefFoundError java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class sun.awt.X11GraphicsEnvironment>
13:57	antares_	hcumberdale: it should be (net.coobird.thumbnailor.Thumbnails/of (into-array java.net.URL [(URL. "http://s3.amazonaws.com/mkr_cblog/finished.jpg")])
13:57	hcumberdale	thx very much
13:57	antares_	hcumberdale: that library may need Sun/Oracle JDK or something
13:59	xeqi	hcumberdale: what
13:59	xeqi	what os are you usgin?
14:01	hcumberdale	technomancy , can I set java.awt.headless=true with lein ?
14:01	muhoo	thanks for this: http://technomancy.us/148 great explanation. also "asplode", lol.
14:02	antares_	hcumberdale: you can, :jvm-opts ["-Djava.awt.headless=true"]
14:04	hcumberdale	$ cat Procfile
14:04	hcumberdale	web: lein trampoline run -m cblog.core
14:04	hcumberdale	how to set it here?
14:05	technomancy	hcumberdale: you can export JVM_OPTS
14:06	hcumberdale	on heroku? with the procfile?
14:06	technomancy	if you want it always present, you should use :jvm-opts
14:08	nDuff	Is there a way to tell whether a class is public? I have 3rd-party library returning an instance of a private class with public members, but am only allowed to call those methods defined by public interfaces, so introspecting with (bean x) is failing; I'm trying to figure out what needs to be changed to detect that situation.
14:08	technomancy	muhoo: I had a lot of fun with that code =)
14:24	jonasen	dnolen: sorry for the mess...
14:24	ibdknox	jonasen: eh, it's not a mess, it's something that should be thought through
14:24	lynaghk	dnolen: pong.
14:25	dnolen	jonasen: haha, no mess. AST as data was just not something I'd thought about much - clearly that's what Rich wants.
14:25	dnolen	lynaghk: just pinged you to say I'm following your cljs-profile stuff, good to see real world issues you're encountered. Would be nice to see a real summary from you at some point.
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: definitely. Performance is something I'd like to sit down and think about
14:26	jonasen	dnolen: I agree. I'm interested in getting the contents of :children corrected. If Rich want it attached to the ast that's fine by me
14:26	lynaghk	dnolen: I want to tidy up the C2 API this week and get an official 0.1.0 release out, then I'm going to go back and check out perf stuff.
14:27	dnolen	lynaghk: excellent that would be very, very helpful.
14:27	ibdknox	dnolen: I don't feel super strongly one way or the other, but right now I just see something that's unwieldy and confusing
14:27	ibdknox	dnolen: that no other AST I've ever seen has, which is only a half argument
14:28	dnolen	ibdknox: I don't feel strongly about it either - it's also hard to tell what the actual goal was considering the gaps that jonasen uncovered
14:28	ibdknox	dnolen: I agree, that's why I'm hoping rich comes in and explains why he cares about it
14:29	lynaghk	dnolen: we're working on a map visualization right now, but I'm worried we might have to drop to D3 for parts of it since D3 is still a few orders of magnitude faster in some cases.
14:29	jonasen	dnolen: ibdknox: I can put together a patch which moves back to :children, but with the problems fixed.
14:30	dnolen	lynaghk: "few order of magnitude faster" is not something I want to hear :) If we're not within one order of magnitude that's a problem.
14:30	dnolen	jonasen: just make a new patch the :children re-added, multimethods removed.
14:31	jonasen	dnolen: without the bugfixes?
14:31	dnolen	jonasen: bugfixes are good, Rich didn't mention those at all :)
14:31	lynaghk	dnolen: one of the constraining issues for C2 is that I want to keep the code idiomatic Clojure, and I just don't know a ton about optimizing JVM Clojure performance idiomatically (e.g. using arrays instead of seqs)
14:33	jtoy	so re-gsub is not part of the core?
14:33	dnolen	lynaghk: in bottlenecks - arrays, loop/recur are big wins. I haven't looked at C2 closely so I can't say much at this point.
14:33	lynaghk	dnolen: actually, loop/recur is slower than doseq
14:33	lynaghk	https://github.com/lynaghk/profile-cljs/blob/master/src/cljs/seq_test/test.cljs
14:34	dnolen	lynaghk: I doubt that but I can't say what's going on w/o seeing the generated code.
14:34	lynaghk	The "iter" library macro-expands doseq-like-loops into loop/recurs, and (on chrome) it's slower.
14:37	dnolen	lynaghk: loop/recur compiles to a while(true) loop w/ break - you're not going to get faster than that.
14:37	lynaghk	dnolen: I'll have to look into the generated code then. I'd love some faster loops = )
14:38	dnolen	lynaghk: and all your profiling is done w/ advanced opts right?
14:38	lynaghk	dnolen: though I don't think looping is the slow part of C2's core functionality. It might be DOM stuff (D3 uses the native APIs, while C2 goes through layers of indirection.
14:39	dnolen	lynaghk: I noticed you mentioned string concatenation - that's crazy slow.
14:39	dnolen	lynaghk: I added an optimization yesterday for non-higher order call to str
14:39	lynaghk	dnolen: no. We've been forced to stay at :simple on some projects so that's what I've been doing. I'll try to find some time to turn that hodgepode repo into a more organized suite that automatically runs the different levels.
14:40	dnolen	lynaghk: yeah under :simple optimizations you're going to get punished a bit. no lambda lifting.
14:40	dnolen	lynaghk: why are you forced to use :simple?
14:40	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, I saw that and used it this morning. I got a big performance boost from just redefining join to use the native JS array join, so it bypasses ClojureScript's str.
14:40	solussd	I'm trying to write a 'snippet' using enliven that selects the first anchor element in a <ul> with an id of "files". I'm using the selector [:ul#files :> :a] and a selector within my snippet of [:a]. I never get a match. any ideas? code here: https://gist.github.com/f12e699eefb950a43536
14:40	Frozenlock	If anyone is interested, I've found an app to make an exe from a jar. (You still need to have java on your machine, but at least it's easier for the common windows user!) ---> http://launch4j.sourceforge.net/
14:41	lynaghk	dnolen: right now we are using cljs-chosen on a few projects and haven't had the time to make sure it works correctly under advanced optimzations
14:42	yoklov	hm, I think there might be a bug in cljs transients
14:42	dnolen	lynaghk: I see, and you can't just provide an exports file for that?
14:42	dnolen	yoklov: quite possible, new stuff.
14:42	lynaghk	dnolen: I bet we can, we just need to find half an hour somewhere = )
14:42	dnolen	lynaghk: heh, gotcha :)
14:42	yoklov	the definition of frequencies from clojure uses them, and breaks in cljs
14:43	dnolen	yoklov: hm, yeah file a bug
14:43	yoklov	okay, i'll find a small broken case
14:44	dnolen	lynaghk: advanced opts makes a huge difference especially on browsers that aren't Chrome. IME most browsers make you pay for deep property access.
14:45	yoklov	lynaghk: yeah, you can tell a huge difference between no opts and advanced in firefox
14:45	yoklov	you can *often
14:47	lynaghk	dnolen: I just tried checking the timeline on a redraw for the map. A single redraw triggers something like two dozen GC events (15 MB collected each time)
14:47	yonkeltron	i heard about some awesome interactive tutorials for clojure for learning the stdlib and such but can't dig them up now that i want to do them. could someone help me find them? also, i'd love to know where to look in the future so i can help myself.
14:47	technomancy	yonkeltron: probably 4clojure?
14:48	yonkeltron	perhaps...
14:48	dnolen	lynaghk: are you using master or 1011?, also w/o looking at your code I don't know what's involved in a redraw :)
14:48	technomancy	yonkeltron: or tryclj.com
14:48	lynaghk	dnolen: by redraw I mean "unify!" here: https://github.com/lynaghk/c2/blob/master/src/cljs/c2/core.cljs
14:49	lynaghk	dnolen: I'm using whatever comes with lein-cljsbuild 0.1.8.
14:49	yonkeltron	technomancy: ah. thanks, then.
14:50	technomancy	yonkeltron: also you mentioned earlier being interested in more background re: clojure vs cl; if you are in the mood to read a paper or two I recommend Out of the Tarpit and Equal Rights for Functional Objects to get a good grasp on the benefits of the functional approach
14:50	yonkeltron	technomancy: perhaps i shall do this. thank you.
14:52	dnolen	lynaghk: what fns rise up when you actually profile?
14:53	lynaghk	dnolen: bottom up profile gives 56% program, then 35ish percent for applyTo, seq, do_dispatch
14:54	dnolen	lynaghk: I think apply may be very, very, very slow it's been something I've been looking into lately.
14:54	lynaghk	dnolen: I'm not sure how I'm supposed to actually glean useful info from that stuff---I've been kicking around the idea to just make a "profiler" that wraps every form in "time", aggregates the results, and then colors your source code accordingly.
14:55	lynaghk	dnolen: function application is one of my favorites, definitely make that faster if possible = )
14:56	dnolen	lynaghk: yes apply and rest fns are what I'm looking at.
14:59	mega_	ibdknox: You online?
14:59	ibdknox	mega_: yeah
14:59	lynaghk	dnolen: okay, rad. I've got to run, but I'll keep you posted on the cljs-profile stuff. Any idea when a new official cljs release will be coming out?
15:00	mega_	ibdknox: in crate theres a as-content function. would you min if i made a pull request of the code where that is a multimethod instead?
15:01	ibdknox	mega_: sounds like a reasonable thing to do :)
15:01	mega_	ibdknox: whanted to use it for a project :P
15:02	dnolen	lynaghk: I think soon as we re-precate ObjMap and close a couple outstanding bugs.
15:02	dnolen	lynaghk: so hopefully this week?
15:04	lynaghk	dnolen: okay, sweet.
15:05	yonkeltron	assume i wanted to buy a clojure book. do i want CP (o'reilly) or PC (pragprog)?
15:05	lynaghk	dnolen: thanks for all your work on this stuff. even if some parts of the runtime are slow, cljs is still hella faster for development =)
15:05	dnolen	lynaghk: good to hear :)
15:05	aniero	yonkeltron: you want CP
15:06	yonkeltron	aniero: sounds good. i figured as much but what makes you say that?
15:06	aniero	it's more up to date, and seems better organized. more thorough introduction to the ecosystem too
15:06	yonkeltron	does it cover lein?
15:06	aniero	yep!
15:06	yonkeltron	i sort of want some input about best practices for code org and workflow
15:06	aniero	"joy" is equally good, although it's older (e.g. no lein, that i remember)
15:06	yonkeltron	obviously differs from CL
15:10	muhoo	ibdknox: so i think what i want to do with forms is make them like ring or hiccup: i want to make HTML/HTTP CRUD forms composable
15:10	ibdknox	interesting
15:11	muhoo	abstract away all the POST/GET machinery
15:12	muhoo	give it a map, including the field names, types, what kind of form it is (edit/add), the validation functions, pass in functions for it to use to read/write the db, and have it spit out defpage's, basically.
15:15	muhoo	a tually, no, have it spit out defpages for the edit page, the add page, and the POST to receive both of those, so 3 defpages
15:16	muhoo	needs a lot more hammock time still :-)
15:31	emezeske	ibdknox: Hey, did you see my jayq pull request? I basically grepped my app for "(." and added all the raw jquery calls it made. I figured if everyone did that, jayq would get fleshed out pretty quickly :)
15:32	ibdknox	emezeske: I think I merged it in already, didn't I? :)
15:32	clojurebot	excusez-moi
15:32	emezeske	ibdknox: Oh? I thought github would tell me about that. Awesome, thanks!
15:33	emezeske	ibdknox: Also, if I get around to it, would you accept a test suite (probably written against phantomjs)?
15:33	ibdknox	emezeske: that would be aweosme
15:34	emezeske	ibdknox: Okay, cool! No idea when I'll have the time/motivation, but I really want to do that
15:35	emezeske	ibdknox: If/when I get around to it, I'll probably add tests for crate as well.
15:35	ibdknox	sweet :)
15:40	yonkeltron	any os-level work done with clojure?
15:41	AimHere	Clojure's generally been targeting virtual machines and javascript so far, so no
15:42	AimHere	Maybe someone's emulated an OS or something in Clojure
15:42	yoklov	yonkeltron: the GC makes that sort of thing harder, especially given it's startup time and whatnot
15:42	yonkeltron	AimHere: i fancy the idea of an os written in lisp and i know that a CL project was in effect
15:42	yonkeltron	sadly, i think it died: http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/
15:43	yoklov	i'd suspect it would be hard to get fast enough
15:43	AimHere	There was always ye olde Lispe Machines
15:44	AimHere	Common Lisp is reasonably fast, I'm led to believe
15:44	yonkeltron	yes
15:44	AimHere	Something of the order of 1/2 to 1/4 the speed of C according to those TIOBE benchmarks
15:45	yonkeltron	sbcl was able to run some of my simulations in school with sufficient speed a few years ago
15:45	yonkeltron	i have never had speed issues with sbcl, actually.
15:45	yonkeltron	and things go even faster if you use declare
15:46	TimMc	yonkeltron: Have you looked at Rust?
15:46	yonkeltron	TimMc: i have not.
15:46	yonkeltron	TimMc: still having some anxiety about clojure and as yet new to the world
15:47	halgari	the other issue with a native clojure is that you either loose eval, or you have to develop your clojure compiler in such a way that it can compile code on-the-fly, and that's no easy task
15:47	yoklov	I'd imagine that the GC would cause you to have trouble supprting real time user applications, as you wouldn't really know when the GC would trigger
15:47	yonkeltron	AimHere: i had a reasonably-fast machine running a 2m scenario simulation and it did it safely in around 20 min
15:48	yonkeltron	halgari: not entirely true! consider the guestvm research done at sun
15:48	yonkeltron	yoklov: assuming stop-the-world, yes.
15:48	yoklov	thats sort of what i mean by speed. you don't have the same control as with C
15:48	yonkeltron	clojure does not do its own gc, right?
15:48	yoklov	it relies on java
15:48	yonkeltron	it lets the jvm do the needful, correct?
15:48	halgari	correct, it uses the platform's gc
15:49	AimHere	halgari, native lisps manage to compile on the fly; Is there some reason why compiling to native code is necessarily harder than compiling to all those virtual machine bytecodes that everything runs on these days?
15:50	yonkeltron	AimHere: i think that depends
15:50	halgari	Oh yes, there's a major difference between the two.
15:51	yonkeltron	halgari: go on
15:51	AimHere	That Doug Hoyte book points out that Clisp outperforms C at regexing precisely because it compiles on the fly; though I wouldn't call you a liar if you said that book told people that Common Lisp cured his AIDS
15:52	halgari	On the JVM, CLR, Python-vm the lowest common denominator is an object. So you can have bytecode that says: "PUSH 1; LOAD_METHOD toString; CALL_FUNCTION"
15:52	yonkeltron	AimHere: you mean it doesn't cure aids?
15:53	hiredman	halgari: that is just not true, the jvm has primitive non-objects
15:53	halgari	so the Vtables are actually handled by the VM. on a native implementation you have to first define what a vtable is, then figure out how to call it in an efficient way
15:53	yonkeltron	TimMc: oh the rust language stuf?
15:53	halgari	hiredman: well yes...you are correct..I oversimplified
15:54	hiredman	arrays are also technically not objects on the jvm (even though the java language makes them look like objects)
15:54	halgari	let me correct myself....objects are first-class items in CLR/Java
15:56	halgari	back to what I was originally saying, things like "is instance of" and "is subclass of" are way harder in a native runtime than they are in a VM. In the native world, you just don't have much metadata at all...
15:56	yonkeltron	TimMc: i have now read up a little bit on the rust stuff. why did you ask about it?
15:56	yonkeltron	halgari: in light of what you've said, may i ask about type erasure on the jvm?
15:58	halgari	type erasure is more a side-effect of the way generics are handled in the JVM. that sort of thing actaully doesn't extist in the CLR.
15:59	yonkeltron	halgari: which, iiuc, was why java lacked reified types (which continues, i think...)
16:00	halgari	correct
16:00	halgari	basically generics in Java are just syntactic sugar to keep you from doing something you didn't mean to
16:00	yonkeltron	i once heard odersky talk about the first version of generics and how he implemented it
16:01	yonkeltron	quite an enjoyable story involving late nights, coffee and an angry spouse
16:02	halgari	But back to native code compile, I don't think CL even supports eval in a compiled context. I've never run CL, but I rememer some doc stating that you lost a few features when compiling to native code, and eval was one of them.
16:03	yonkeltron	does anyone have familiarity with MS's singularity OS project?
16:03	yonkeltron	afaict, it was a project to boot directly into a CLR vm and then hoist everything up on top of it from there
16:04	yonkeltron	so you'd have the whole OS running on top of the vm
16:04	yonkeltron	with JIT stuff, etc.
16:04	scottj_	ibdknox: have you found any libraries you plan to use for bundling a self-contained webkit app for the big 3 OSes? if you build one for Light Table that would make a really nice by-product.
16:04	hiredman	scottj_: javafx
16:04	ibdknox	scottj_: nothing yet. I built a very simple mac one for me to mess around with
16:06	scottj_	hiredman: Doesn't whatever webview feature javafx has require the user to already have a webkit browser installed?
16:07	hiredman	scottj_: I dunno, I haven't seen such a requirement mentioned anywere
16:07	ibdknox	SWT definitely does
16:07	ibdknox	dunno about javafx
16:10	TimMc	yonkeltron: I mentioned Rust because I think it's the best shot right now at having a reasonable language to write kernels in.
16:11	yonkeltron	TimMc: i see. what about it, in particular?
16:11	Raynes	inb4 technomancy is all like "wtf no repl"
16:11	yonkeltron	technomancy: dude, i think i owe you a beer from like a year ago
16:12	Raynes	Everybody owes him a beer.
16:12	yonkeltron	technomancy: sorry, meant for that in #emacs
16:12	Raynes	Get in line, friend.
16:12	yonkeltron	Raynes: fair enough
16:12	ibdknox	I just sent an email to Tim O'Reilly :)
16:13	Raynes	ibdknox: You need to get Bill Gates to tweet it dude.
16:13	ibdknox	My bet is he doesn't read it... but we'll see :)
16:13	Raynes	Otherwise you're doomed.
16:13	ibdknox	haha
16:13	ibdknox	Raynes: Hi Bill, I left your company to do this thing...
16:13	Raynes	Bahaha
16:14	Raynes	"Hi Bill, wanted to see if you'd like to help support competition."
16:14	Raynes	Though I guess light table isn't competition, since C# sucks too hard for light table to be viable for it.
16:14	TimMc	yonkeltron: I actually have forgotten most of the specifics, but Dave Herman (at Mozilla) gave a pretty convincing talk on it. The optional GC stuff was pretty great.
16:14	ibdknox	actually
16:14	ibdknox	building light table for C# would be relatively straightforward
16:15	Raynes	wut
16:15	ibdknox	:)
16:15	Raynes	So Ruby is a problem, but C#...
16:15	Raynes	Mind blown.
16:15	ibdknox	Raynes: microsoft invests a lot in tools. The new language stuff called "Roselyn" is far above and beyond what exists for virtually any other language
16:15	ibdknox	Clojure doesn't need it because it's so much simpler
16:17	TimMc	ibdknox: "Microsoft invests a lot in tools." <-- I'm going to quote you out of context on that.
16:17	ibdknox	lol
16:17	yonkeltron	TimMc: awesome, thanks. i appreciate languages with non-thread concurrency options as i have always found threads a bit...um...let's say clumsy.
16:18	TimMc	Rust is still really young, though. :-(
16:18	TimMc	Can't be soon enough.
16:18	yonkeltron	TimMc: yeah and also mozilla
16:18	yonkeltron	TimMc: i mean, it worries me because mozilla
16:18	ibdknox	speaking of mozilla
16:18	halgari	yonkeltron: someday I'd like to look at doing what MacRuby did. They somehow compile Ruby down to the ObejctiveC runtime...
16:18	Raynes	TimMc: I was going to use Rust for something until I realized there wasn't an http client yet.
16:18	ibdknox	Eich retweeted one of the light table things the other day
16:18	Raynes	Pretty hardcore that a language can be so new it doesn't have one of those.
16:19	yonkeltron	halgari: some day. i happen to adore ruby.
16:19	yonkeltron	ibdknox: whoa! dude, huge news for you
16:19	ibdknox	Raynes: lol not sure you get much earlier than that
16:19	TimMc	Raynes: Last time I looked, they didn't have any code samples -- because they hadn't decided on syntax yet.
16:19	Raynes	TimMc: They've got a solid release now though.
16:19	yonkeltron	Raynes: yeah even dart has useful shit
16:19	Raynes	But syntax could, of course, change.
16:19	Raynes	It's a 0.1 release IIRC.
16:19	yonkeltron	Raynes: plus if you study up on dart, you get schooled by gilad bracha
16:20	Raynes	Dart is the least interesting thing I've seen in recent months.
16:20	yonkeltron	as a language?
16:20	yonkeltron	i think it has very interesting aspects, actually
16:20	yonkeltron	i think gilad's work on optional typing has gotten me thinking
16:20	yonkeltron	i appreciate some of the vm considerations like the images and language-only vm decision
16:20	Raynes	Well, it's mostly that I don't do much (any) Javascript, so I have problems with my care cup regarding replacements.
16:20	yonkeltron	also the isolate concept
16:21	technomancy	writing an OS on a platform that used UTF-16 as its internal string encoding would be a memory hog
16:21	mmarczyk	dnolen: hi
16:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: just fixed the transient bug yoklov reported a little earlier -- CLJS-219
16:22	TimMc	technomancy: We shouldn't have to know what the internal encoding is!
16:22	yonkeltron	Raynes: linguistically, yeah vanilla braces and shit all over dart. however, the adjacent language concepts have held my attention if not my direct interest. i don't know if that distinction makes sense...
16:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: also CLJS-220 replaces frequencies with Clojure's implementation with transients (which now appears to work fine)
16:22	yonkeltron	ok i must step out for a bit
16:22	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, it would be interesting to hack hotspot to change it and find out how spectacular the failures are on various large-ish projects =)
16:22	TimMc	technomancy: I don't see why Java can't have ASCII strings, UTF-16 strings, UTF-8 strings... under the covers.
16:23	technomancy	TimMc: "good" code would continue to work everywhere, but I can bet you it wouldn't work out in practice =)
16:23	TimMc	Well, sure. Oracle refused to change j.l.String hashing because that would somehow break some things.
16:23	TimMc	Still boggles my mind a little.
16:23	technomancy	OTOH dalvik uses UTF-8
16:24	mmarczyk	dnolen: need to dash now, but I'll be back & working on the ObjMap ticket soon
16:24	technomancy	so who knows
16:24	TimMc	Oh, ouch -- switch statements.
16:24	halgari	technomancy: well dalvik isn't really java....or is it...I guess we'll find out in a few weeks when the judges tell us the truth
16:25	technomancy	halgari: yeah, but it's able to run a surprising amount of code written in the Java Programming Language™
16:29	muhoo	dalvic is java, but it's not the jvm, IIRC
16:29	muhoo	er dalvik
16:30	ibdknox	dnolen: his argument is that let's say he has the ast, and makes some transformations. He then wants to run another tool over it that uses children. He now has to duplicate his changes to the children nodes otherwise all of his transformations will not be taken into account
16:32	mmarczyk	oh btw, transient vector perf test if anybody wants to run it: http://jsperf.com/cljs-transient-vector
16:43	daniel	how would this Long be represented in clojure? 0x101010101017eL
16:47	AimHere	,0x101010101017e
16:47	clojurebot	282578800148862
16:47	mebaran151	I'm having trouble running trampoline tasks in lein2 on windows. Any reason why it never finds the task?
16:47	dnolen	ibdknox: heya, no I get that. I think we were talking past each other. I don't see any problems with :children + :children-keys
16:48	dnolen	mmarczyk: cool!
16:48	dnolen	mmarczyk: wow, nice nearly 3x faster on Chrome
16:48	mebaran151	dalvik is Java the same way that Visual C++ and G++ and both C++
16:49	jonasen	dnolen: I don't think something like :children-keys will be useful
16:49	daniel	i see, thanks AimHere
16:49	dnolen	jonasen: that was his idea not mine, but why not?
16:50	jonasen	dnolen: for most expressions there are no keys for the children
16:50	jonasen	they must be computed
16:51	jonasen	and then you're back to :children
16:51	technomancy	mebaran151: lein1 or lein2? batch file or shell script?
16:51	technomancy
16:51	mebaran151	lein2 batch file
16:52	dnolen	jonasen: as in keys can't be added?
16:52	technomancy	mebaran151: to debug change 'del "%TRAMPOLINE_FILE%"' in lein.bat to print out the contents of the trampoline file instead and see if the command makes sense
16:52	ibdknox	jonasen: dnolen: thinking more about the transformation then reading thing, we absolutely cannot duplicate that data
16:52	technomancy	mebaran151: actually what's the specific error?
16:53	mebaran151	lein2 trampoline repl => trampoline repl is not a task
16:53	technomancy	oh strange, so it's treating "trampoline repl" as a single argument?
16:53	mebaran151	looks like it now that you put it that way
16:53	technomancy	sounds like a problem with the way the batch file is parsing arguments then
16:53	dnolen	jonasen: what mean is why can't we add more keys?
16:54	mebaran151	if I have some free time, I mighttry to create a powershell port of teh batch file; should be easier to maintain than the .bat monster
16:54	dnolen	ibdknox: people who want to transform can ignore :children, and just work via :children-keys no?
16:54	ibdknox	dnolen: the issue is downstream
16:55	jonasen	dnolen: sure we can. But I don't think it would be useful. For example, what keys would you add to :children-keys for e.g., :let
16:55	dnolen	ibdknox: ?
16:55	ibdknox	dnolen: if I transform it can no longer be reliably consumed later
16:55	technomancy	mebaran151: someone has ported it already; search the mailing list
16:55	mebaran151	oh, neato
16:55	ibdknox	dnolen: unless I duplicate all my changes to the child nodes
16:55	ibdknox	dnolen: rather, :children nodes
16:55	technomancy	mebaran151: at the time it was determined powershell didn't have the installed user base to replace the batch file, but maybe that's changed?
16:55	technomancy	mebaran151: this was nearly two years ago
16:56	ibdknox	dnolen: example. I have a transformer that changes all the invokes of foo to foo2
16:56	technomancy	mebaran151: it would also allow the windows side to avoid the ridiculousness of having to manually do a self-install
16:56	dnolen	jonasen: :let, :children-keys are :bes and :body
16:56	ibdknox	dnolen: I now have to propagate that change to all parents of those nodes that happen to have me as a child, because that invoke node is duplicated
16:57	ibdknox	dnolen: otherwise a tool that just looks at children would be working on invalid information
16:58	jonasen	dnolen: :bindings is not an expression object (there is no {:op :binding ...})
16:58	ibdknox	dnolen: so if we really want to treat the AST as data, we cannot duplicate that information unless we mandate all transformations must modify the nodes in :children too, which is a disaster waiting to happen
16:58	dnolen	ibdknox: are you talking about interop between tools that use :children and those that don't?
16:58	ibdknox	dnolen: yes
16:58	ibdknox	dnolen: there needs to be one way here
16:58	dnolen	ibdknox: not sure about that
16:58	ibdknox	?
16:59	mebaran151	powershell I think is standard on Windows 7
16:59	dnolen	ibdknox: you do your transformations and when you want it to be consumed by other tools you construct :children.
16:59	ibdknox	:(
16:59	dnolen	jonasen: I don't see the problem, we can add new keys to work around this right?
16:59	technomancy	mebaran151: yeah, the question is how long do we need to support XP users
16:59	ibdknox	dnolen: so basically we're saying composition is not something we support by default...
17:00	ibdknox	dnolen: that's against Clojure's own principle
17:00	dnolen	one second.
17:00	technomancy	mebaran151: though honestly they are going to have to do a manual download (either curl or the standalone jar) to make it work anyway, so maybe they might as well download powershell? I don't know.
17:01	mebaran151	you wouldn't need curl from powershell I don't think (it comes with a builtin webclient)
17:01	technomancy	yeah, I meant that it would replace the need to download curl
17:01	mebaran151	the only thing is that setting up powershell scripts to run can be a bit tedious (the permissions etc)
17:02	@rhickey	new toys pushed
17:02	@rhickey	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/96e8596cfdd29a2bb245d958683ee5fc1353b87a
17:02	@rhickey	it's the start of a reduce-based library
17:02	@rhickey	map/filter etc as reduction combinators
17:03	@rhickey	when combined with the internal reduce support recently solidified, yields allocation-free pipelines
17:03	dnolen	rhickey: wow
17:04	@rhickey	an be much faster
17:04	@rhickey	can
17:04	@rhickey	than seqs
17:04	dnolen	rhickey: btw, care to share some brief thoughts on the :children issue?
17:04	pjstadig	rhickey: is the comment header correct on Reduced.java? doesn't mention EPL
17:04	@rhickey	crap
17:05	TimMc	heh
17:07	@rhickey	ok, better now with the key file :)
17:07	@rhickey	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/4a22e3a44df48ea0d37dd034bc3f6cb3092117a9
17:07	jamii	user=> (defrecord Bar [y] Foo (foo [_] (->Bar nil)))
17:07	@rhickey	so, you just require c.c.reduce :as r, then you can swap r/map etc
17:07	jamii	user.Bar
17:08	jamii	user=> (deftype Baz [y] Foo (foo [_] (->Baz nil)))
17:08	jamii	CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ->Baz in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:17)
17:08	jamii	:(
17:08	jamii	Is there a reason this only got fixed for defrecord?
17:08	TimMc	jamii: deftype is intended to be much more bare.
17:08	@rhickey	reducer makes it easy to build these combinatos, as long as they can be defined in terms of a transformation of the next reducing fn in chain
17:09	@rhickey	when not, (e.g. flatten), you can just reify CollReduce
17:09	jamii	TimMc: I'm trying to use it to implement IPersistentSet. Which doesn't really work when you can't call the constructur
17:09	jamii	TimMc: Isn't implementing core datastructures the use-case for deftype?
17:11	@rhickey	the other key thing is the ability to terminate reduce
17:11	jamii	The original issue only mentioned defrecord (http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-874), I kind of assumed that deftype was just an oversight
17:12	hiredman	rhickey: looks like manual stream fusion
17:12	@rhickey	what's manual?
17:13	hiredman	well the compiler/runtime just doesn't figure it out and insert it
17:13	hiredman	you have to use the ops from the namespace to get it
17:13	@rhickey	hiredman: patch welcome
17:14	hiredman	hey, I am not knocking it, just figuring out what it is
17:15	kovasb	looks pretty cool. is that all the functions that make sense?
17:15	kovasb	map filter remove take take-while drop flatten
17:16	dnolen	rhickey: sounds an applicable strategy for CLJS as well no?
17:17	hiredman	dnolen: you inc'ed clj-899? say it ain't so...
17:17	jamii	Is there any way for a deftype implementing IPersistentSet to call its own constructor?
17:18	technomancy	I wonder if it would be possible to make drop on lazy-seqs avoid the generation of potentially expensive values if it could be determined that they were going to be discarded.
17:18	technomancy	kind of the reverse of early-terminating a reduce
17:19	mega_	ibdknox: still here?
17:20	TimMc	technomancy: As long as you could somehow indicate whether the value generation required shared state...
17:21	TimMc	Or I guess, split each iteration into two pieces: Generating the new cell's value, and generating state for th next iteration.
17:21	technomancy	shared?
17:21	TimMc	shared over time
17:21	TimMc	i doesnt has language
17:21	technomancy	oh, as in whether the next value is based on the value of the current element
17:22	technomancy	right; I'm thinking it would be great if pagination in a web service API could be implemented in terms of lazy seqs, but pagination would need drop to be free
17:22	technomancy	obviously for something like clojure.core/iterate it wouldn't make any sense
17:23	TimMc	technomancy: Well, if you had a seq of the squares of an incrementing counter, you'd need to run the counter forward for every iteration, but could skip the squaring.
17:23	TimMc	Maybe split it into (map #(* % %) counting) where counting is a lazy-seq that just does the counter.
17:24	TimMc	(Counting and squaring are just stand-ins here for more expensive operations.)
17:24	jamii	Ah, Foo. does work. I just misread the error message.
17:27	austinh	I'm trying to get started with Korma, but I'm getting a SQLException: "Connections could not be acquired..." Any clues to debug?
17:30	mebaran151	technomancy: I think I found why trampoline was being parsed as one argument: the unquoting "%1" at "%1"=="trampoline" fixes stuff
17:31	@rhickey	hiredman: there are no streams to fuse, you might as well say Haskell's http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Enumerator_and_iteratee are manual stream fusion - they're not
17:31	@rhickey	it is simply reduce, but now reduce has advantages in almost always being internal
17:32	@rhickey	dnolen: should work for cljs yes
17:32	dnolen	rhickey: and prim collections seems like?
17:32	@rhickey	technomancy: not sure what you mean re: drop
17:33	@rhickey	dnolen: harder since the fns need to combine, but possibly
17:33	@rhickey	this will also work swimmingly with parallel ops, I hope to get to soon - since we can then base them all off of reduce, rather than parallel this and that
17:34	@rhickey	since parallel is always eager
17:34	technomancy	rhickey: I guess it's only vaguely related to the reduced stuff, but imagine if you had a function invoked like (paginated-rest-seq "http://myapp.com/articles.json") that used standard page/offset GET parameters
17:35	@rhickey	so you want to (drop n (map expensive ...)) ?
17:35	technomancy	you'd want to be able to drop N items to get at the range you wanted, but if you used clojure.core/drop that would mean fetching and discarding everything up to N
17:35	technomancy	right; if it would be possible to prove that the elements would be discarded, you could opt out of calling the expensive fn
17:36	daniel	im trying to do this little bit of java in clojure: databaseIndex = (int)((bbBlockers * magicNumberRook[C3]) >>> rookMagicShifts[C3])
17:36	daniel	im getting an integer overflow when i * my two 64 bit longs
17:36	TimMc	technomancy: As opposed to (map page-for (drop n (page-numbers)))
17:36	technomancy	not sure it would be possible to propagate that discard bit outside the trivial case of calling drop directly; haven't thought through whether dynamic binding would work for that
17:36	@rhickey	technomancy: well, the new stuff does exactly that
17:37	technomancy	rhickey: oh, no kidding? I missed that.
17:37	technomancy	I thought it only went the other direction
17:37	@rhickey	basically the reducing fns form a chain, so drop goes first and simply counts
17:37	technomancy	slick
17:38	@rhickey	I don't think that's possible with seqs
17:38	@rhickey	since there each nested thing is first realized
17:38	@rhickey	here there are no intermediates
17:38	@rhickey	not even iterators
17:40	technomancy	I was thinking it might have to be opt-in; a bit that the seq-generating function could check
17:41	@rhickey	technomancy: could you map delays?
17:42	@rhickey	then if you don't realize, no charge
17:43	Bronsa	rhickey: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/96e8596cfdd29a2bb245d958683ee5fc1353b87a#L2L58 i think ret should be deref'd
17:43	@rhickey	Bronsa: no, that happens above
17:43	technomancy	yeah, but the consumer has to explicitly deref the delays
17:43	Bronsa	oh ok
17:43	@rhickey	that reduce isn't the outer reduce
17:44	@rhickey	deref on non-delays is harmless
17:44	jweiss	"Wrong number of args (-1) passed to: core$assoc" that error message appears to have a bug in it :)
17:44	Bronsa	oh i see, it gets derefed by coll-reduce
17:44	@rhickey	er, force that is
17:45	technomancy	yeah, it's not terribly onerous
17:45	hiredman	rhickey: force?
17:45	technomancy	I'd prefer something seamless though. you could always provide your own discard-aware drop function too.
17:45	@rhickey	doc force
17:46	hiredman	deref on non-derefables throws, but force on non-delays is harmless
17:46	hiredman	(doc force)
17:46	clojurebot	"([x]); If x is a Delay, returns the (possibly cached) value of its expression, else returns x"
17:46	@rhickey	technomancy: then maybe some delaying map that did the force on first
17:48	@rhickey	map could have done that had it not been also used for I/O
17:49	technomancy	if drop bound a dynamic var, map and other lazy-seq callers could just check that before calling their f, right? since drop always realizes you don't have any nasty binding/laziness complications.
17:49	@rhickey	technomancy: I'm not going to go there :)
17:51	technomancy	yeah, binding+laziness admittedly sets off alarms in my head too
17:52	@rhickey	well, have fun with the bits - termination for reduce will keep you from having to resort to loop, and we can add a few more seq ops if they make sense, probably also do -kvversions
17:52	@rhickey	then fork/join
17:52	technomancy	cool
17:53	hiredman	damn
17:53	technomancy	ah, binding would probably interact badly with chunking
17:53	technomancy	oh, he's gone
17:53	hiredman	was just going to as if rich see's this as the basis for io stuff like iteratees
17:53	technomancy	too bad; he missed me telling him he's right
17:54	technomancy	not sure if that's an argument against drop binding or chunking though
17:54	napping	how would binding work with nested drop calls?
17:55	technomancy	napping: the nested drop would be discarded, probably
17:55	technomancy	can you even have nested drop calls that aren't no-ops?
17:55	napping	like (drop 2 (drop 3 <seq>))?
17:55	dnolen	ibdknox: jonasen: well I guess that means we have to decide amongst ourselves about the :children issue :)
17:56	technomancy	napping: oh, I see. well since drop doesn't call any functions that would check the discard bit it should be a no-op?
17:58	napping	Now I really don't follow you, but anyway explicit laziness on list items sounds like a better way to go
17:59	daniel	http://www.rivalchess.com/magic-bitboards/ <- what kind of operation is the occupancy * Magic Number for rook on c3?
17:59	daniel	if i try to multiply two 64 bit longs, i get an integer overflow error
17:59	jonasen	dnolen: for me, there are no (known) issues left. I've corrected the inconsistencies I found.
18:00	mebaran151	daniel: if the number might overflow, you might have to move to BigNum math
18:00	jonasen	:children-keys or not is a seperate issue
18:00	dnolen	jonasen: yes
18:00	mebaran151	have you tried (* 1N my-big-long my-other-long)
18:01	hiredman	mebaran151: he most likely wants unsafe math, since he is copying java code
18:01	technomancy	mebaran151: can you submit a patch for the .bat issue?
18:02	mebaran151	should I fork and submit a pull request?
18:02	daniel	mebaran151: that gives me value out of range for long
18:03	technomancy	sure, or a patch to the mailing list would be fine
18:03	daniel	the result i get from this operation should be another 64 bit long, it shouldnt overflow
18:03	dnolen	jonasen: ibdknox: huh I don't really see any reason why we can have :children and a children multimethod?
18:03	dnolen	can't have.
18:03	mebaran151	I'm relatively noobish with regard to git: how do I make it make a patch?
18:03	jonasen	dnolen: I've thought about that too
18:03	ibdknox	dnolen: the only thing I care about is the duplication, the rest I think is relatively straight forward
18:04	technomancy	mebaran151: you can make the changes; do `git commit -a -m "fixed thingy"` and then do `git format-patch origin/master` to generate the patch
18:05	dnolen	jonasen: (add-children ast-node)
18:06	napping	how do you get wrapping arithmetic?
18:06	dnolen	napping: unchecked math ops.
18:07	napping	ah, I wasn't looking for a dynamic
18:07	daniel	i know what the result of the operation should be http://www.rivalchess.com/magic-bitboards/
18:07	daniel	(magic result)
18:07	daniel	but i dont know what the operation is
18:08	mmarczyk	yoklov: hi, thanks for catching the transient bug! fix @ CLJS-219, see also CLJS-220 for transient-based frequencies
18:09	yoklov	mmarczyk: wow, thanks for the hasty response
18:09	dnolen	ibdknox: jonasen: I like the add-children idea. People can just interact w/ data and a standard way to sync a node.
18:10	mmarczyk	:-)
18:10	napping	,(binding [unchecked-math true] (* 0x1000000000000000 0x10))
18:10	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: integer overflow>
18:11	pjstadig	,(unchecked-add Long/MAX_VALUE 1)
18:11	clojurebot	-9223372036854775808
18:11	ibdknox	dnolen: sounds much better :)
18:11	pjstadig	,(unchecked-multiply Long/MAX_VALUE Long/MAX_VALUE)
18:11	clojurebot	1
18:11	pjstadig	etc.
18:13	mebaran151	technomancy: patch made, where's the mailinglist?
18:13	technomancy	mebaran151: https://groups.google.com/group/leiningen; thanks
18:13	dnolen	ibdknox: I like it. I think keeps everyone happy.
18:15	Bronsa	napping: i think that has to do with + being inlined
18:16	dnolen	napping: it's not a dynamic var - it's a compiler flag you need to set! it.
18:16	hiredman	^- excellent modularity, fyi
18:17	daniel	can anyone see what that operation is?
18:17	napping	,(binding [unchecked-math true] (eval '(* 0x10000000 0x1000000000)))
18:17	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
18:17	napping	aww
18:17	napping	but that works
18:19	mebaran151	technomancy: posted
18:20	technomancy	mebaran151: thanks
18:21	yoklov	mmarczyk: oh, i filed that bug as CLJS-217
18:23	mmarczyk	yoklov: oh, missed that -- thanks for the heads-up -- just posted a comment w/ pointer to CLJS-219
18:23	yoklov	mmarczyk: awesome
18:23	goodieboy	weavejester: i'm attempting to use "lein ring uberwar" but my app is hanging, can you tell me what the uberwar task does and what it expects in my app?
18:23	aphyr	What's the idiomatic way to catch a checked exception in Clojure?
18:24	yoklov	gotta run for a bit
18:24	weavejester	goodieboy: It compiles the Clojure project into a war file with all dependencies included. Which version are you using?
18:24	mebaran151	aphyr: (catch ExceptionClass ex (do-stuff-with-error e)) ?
18:24	napping	isn't it try?
18:24	TimMc	aphyr: (try ...)
18:25	aphyr	Referring to http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-855
18:25	goodieboy	weavejester: 0.4.5
18:25	mebaran151	/s/e/ex
18:25	TimMc	Oh, that lossage.
18:25	aphyr	clojure.lang.Util.RuntimeException is wrapping it. :/
18:25	weavejester	goodieboy: Try using a later version 0.4.5 is pretty old.
18:25	goodieboy	weavejester: ok, what is the latest?
18:25	weavejester	goodieboy: 0.6.5 should work
18:25	aphyr	Looks like there was a patch to try which offers transparent unwrapping, but I guess that's not a part of 1.3?
18:26	dnolen	ibdknox: jonasen: I also don't see a problem with a dynamic var cljs-add-children
18:26	weavejester	goodieboy: 0.6.6 works with lein2 but has a problem with lein1
18:26	goodieboy	weavejester: ok we're using lein1
18:26	goodieboy	weavejester: ok will try now
18:27	ibdknox	dnolen: hm that would leave my issue still open, right? While having the function forces you to call it once you're handed a tree
18:28	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah I think you're right. We just want a standard a rep, and standard add-children method helper so it's not a hassle.
18:31	goodieboy	weavejester: does "lein ring uberwar" call the application :init function?
18:32	technomancy	goodieboy: any particular blockers for upgrading to lein2, or just haven't looked into it yet?
18:32	goodieboy	technomancy: actually, we just haven't looked into it yet. Does it require clojure 1.3?
18:33	technomancy	no, should be pretty seamless transition in most cases
18:33	goodieboy	technomancy: that's good to hear, maybe i'll try to do the upgrade
18:33	aphyr	Should I (catch RuntimeException, inspect the class of the cause?
18:33	technomancy	goodieboy: let me know if you run into any blockers; want to make sure it's seamless and well-documented for others
18:33	technomancy	clojurebot: lein upgrade guide?
18:34	clojurebot	Leiningen pronunciation is LINE-ing-en ['laɪnɪŋən]
18:34	goodieboy	technomancy: excellent, i will thanks
18:34	technomancy	there's an upgrade guide on the wiki, though clojurebot apparently doesn't remember
18:34	goodieboy	haha
18:35	mega_	ibdknox: any probs with this patch (its small) https://github.com/megakorre/crate/commit/b332ddf9b2123bb20bd3eeb9fbcb2f8da9649e45
18:37	ibdknox	mega_: :node should probably be :dom and that let should be a when-let now :)
18:38	weavejester	goodieboy: It will when the war is installed
18:38	goodieboy	weavejester: ok you mean in the servlet container when starting up?
18:39	weavejester	goodieboy: Right
18:39	goodieboy	weavejester: ok gotcha
18:39	daniel	can anyone see what type of operation the * is, resulting in the 'magic result'? http://www.rivalchess.com/magic-bitboards/
18:42	mega_	ibdknox, kk fixed
18:43	austinh	To answer my own question from earlier, (korma.config/set-delimiters "") solved my "Connections could not be acquired..." issue with postgresql.
18:44	clj_newb	Hi, is it possible to execute two conditions in a if ? Java: if(true) { a = 1; b = 1; } else { c = 1; }
18:45	Bronsa	,(if true (do 1 2) 3)
18:45	clojurebot	2
18:45	clj_newb	thank you!
18:46	clj_newb	,(if true (do (println "a") (println "b")) (println "c"))
18:46	clojurebot	a
18:46	clojurebot	b
18:46	clj_newb	cool
18:51	austinh	Actually, it wasn't (korma.config/set-delimiters ""), it was :delimiters "" in the defdb/postgres form.
18:53	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: content in resources-paths in the :dev profile shouldn't be included in an uberjar correct (lein 2 preview 3)?
18:54	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: there was a bug about dev profiles leaking through; check the issue tracker
18:54	technomancy	not sure if it affects the uberjar or just the pom
18:54	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: thanks
18:56	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: yep, there is one specifically about uberjar applying dev/user profiles: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/537
19:01	daniel	solved my issue with (bit-shift-right (unchecked-long (*' (bit-and rookc3ap (nth rook-occupancy-mask 21)) (nth rook-mnumbers 21))) (nth rook-mnumber-shifts 21)))
19:02	daniel	was able to autopromote to bigint and then cast back to an unchecked-long
19:02	daniel	don't know if it can be improved
19:07	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: is there a known workaround?
19:07	sorenmacbeth	(don't see one referenced in the issue)
19:07	technomancy	it may be fixed in master; I think the issue was just reopened as a reminder to do some cleanup around it
19:07	technomancy	lemme see
19:08	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: yeah, current master has some other issues surrounding pom generation and profiles, but it looks like the uberjar problem is addressed
19:09	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: ok, thanks
19:09	technomancy	(wouldn't hurt to verify manually though =)
19:13	mebaran151	daniel: if you need the performance you might consider creating an array of say two longs and handling overflow manually
19:14	mebaran151	though it might not be worth the effort
19:17	hiredman	~gogurt
19:17	clojurebot	gogurt is just yogurt
19:18	technomancy	what⁈ but it's like... mobile and stuff.
19:18	technomancy	it's nearly clomoso
19:18	mebaran151	and you don't need a spoon
19:20	aphyr	Aha, so if you add enough type hints to prevent reflection, try/catch works properly.
19:20	aphyr	Guess the reflector is what was wrapping those exceptions up.
19:20	yonkeltron	technomancy: http://www.clomoso.com/
19:20	hiredman	aphyr: it's a known issue with 1.3, fixed in 1.4
19:21	aphyr	Sweet. Not a huge issue, this is the first time I've hit it in a lot of code.
19:22	technomancy	yonkeltron: gogurt is mobile and sort of social (you can share it, I guess?) so that's like 2/3
19:22	technomancy	if we can figure out how to get gogurt in the cloud I think we could have VCs all over this
19:23	yonkeltron	technomancy: also if we find some way to incorporate big data
19:23	TimMc	aphyr: Huh. Example?
19:23	yonkeltron	technomancy: like, we can process thousands of cases of gogurt in the cloud using either AWS or dynamite and we can do it in O(n) time!
19:24	technomancy	yonkeltron: with map/reduce it should be possible
19:24	aphyr	https://gist.github.com/2563560
19:24	aphyr	^-- TimMc
19:24	yonkeltron	technomancy: yeah, we'll write our own hadoop clone in like 10 lines of roflscript
19:26	kovasb	roflscript compiles to jvm bytecode right
19:27	TimMc	aphyr: I don't see the type-hinting.
19:27	aphyr	[^RiemannClient client event]
19:28	aphyr	Needed to prevent the reflector on dispatching .send()
19:28	TimMc	Ah, got it.
19:28	TimMc	I was busy looking at the try/catch.
19:28	aphyr	I'm calling it a feature, since that code needed type hints anyway, haha.
19:28	emezeske	aphyr: Spoken like a true engineer.
19:40	dnolen	mmarczyk: ping
19:40	mmarczyk	dnolen: pong
19:41	dnolen	mmarczyk: re: conversion on N updates. It shouldn't be possible to create large ObjMap outside of using the obj-map actor explicitly.
19:41	mmarczyk	dnolen: agreed on that
19:41	dnolen	mmarczyk: so conversion on N updates could work I think.
19:41	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, except maybe through TransientObjMap -- assuming that would be its only purpose or there would be some flag to trigger that behaviour
19:42	mmarczyk	dnolen: that would basically mean conversion on initial size + N
19:42	mmarczyk	dnolen: if that works, we could just use (+ max-initial-size N)
19:42	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, actually
19:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: you want to convert faster for maps which actually are updated
19:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: makes sense, I guess
19:43	dnolen	mmarczyk: I don't think TOM should ever convert, on persistent! probably should create OM that won't convert
19:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: assuming we don't want to see (count om) > 32, I'd say 16 updates?
19:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: and have the compiler emit OMs for <= 16 entries
19:44	dnolen	mmarczyk: I think sticking w/ 32 is probably best.
19:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: 32 for which constant :-)
19:44	dnolen	< 32 compiler emits OMs
19:45	dnolen	> 32 updates -> PHM
19:45	mmarczyk	dnolen: about TOM -- that's no problem to implement, but for that sort of perf-sensitive scenarios, what's the advantage over fromObject ?
19:45	dnolen	TOM & explicit OM for special cases where people care
19:45	mmarczyk	dnolen: you're not worried about the assoc perf at sizes 32-64 ?
19:46	dnolen	explicit OM & TOM use probably means updates are rare.
19:46	dnolen	explicit OM & TOM is about access heavy applications.
19:46	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, so TOM is basically for people who would call fromObject now, but more convenient since we're doing the keys bookkeeping and taking care of the unmodifiable flagging of the OM?
19:49	mmarczyk	dnolen: so, I'd go with a convertible? flag on the OM -- there's one access per assoc at most (that's once we get to the conversion threshold), which should be no problem at all for the maps which will convert and also no problem for the maps which are hardly ever updated
19:50	dnolen	yes
19:50	mmarczyk	dnolen: should unmodifiable OMs perhaps throw on assoc of complex key?
19:50	mmarczyk	dnolen: "pour me into a hash map first, buster" or sth
19:52	mmarczyk	dnolen: also, TransientObjMap no longer strikes me as the perfect name w/ this sort of impl :-(
19:52	mmarczyk	dnolen: TransientCOWObjMap? dunno :-/
19:53	mmarczyk	I'm not altogether certain the pure-lookup-perf-sensitive folks shouldn't just use js-obj, though.
19:55	mmarczyk	going back and forth on this. but mostly I'm bothered by those lookup perf test results -- I must be missing something really big here, but I just can't see what's different now to how things were with the first lookup test :-(
19:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah, we need to look into that.
19:56	kovasb	is this ObjMap thing similar to record, but optimizing for speed rather than memory?
19:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: good point about complex key assoc ...
19:56	dnolen	mmarczyk: we should think about it some more ...
19:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, some extra hammock time is needed on this
19:58	johnfn	how can i tell if a given value v is a function?
19:59	sattvik	johnfn: fn?
19:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: perhaps we should just pick a threshold and mark it as experimental, then revisit with some real-world data? with OMs + HMs only everybody's getting uniformly poor assoc perf and I wonder how common pure simple key maps are at huge sizes...
19:59	S11001001	johnfn: depending on your strength desire, fn? or ifn?
19:59	dnolen	mmarczyk: TOM is really a separate ticket, as is unconvertible OM
19:59	S11001001	johnfn: try both on different values (collections et al) and see what you mean
19:59	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, ok
19:59	johnfn	brilliant, thanks!
20:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: in that case, I'll tidy up the TOM code and post it on a new ticket
20:00	dnolen	mmarczyk: yes, lets make 32 the experimental threshold and re-precate OM, everything is we'll ponder further.
20:00	dnolen	everything else
20:00	mmarczyk	dnolen: cool
20:01	mmarczyk	dnolen: thanks for thinking about this this thoroughly, btw
20:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: so, I'll be posting that new OM-reprecating patch soonish, threshold of 32
20:02	dnolen	mmarczyk: excellent.
20:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: incidentally, I've got some work done on a port of the new reduce goodies -- couldn't help myself
20:03	mmarczyk	kovasb: ObjMap is a copy-on-write map type backed by a JS object (+ an array holding the keys)
20:04	mmarczyk	kovasb: superb lookup performance since it's basically an object lookup; assoc performance is not great at all though, as one would expect
20:05	mmarczyk	kovasb: so there's a bit of a balancing act in trying to pick which map type to use when... see CLJS-190
20:05	kovasb	mmarczyk: sounds useful. just wondering how it relates to the existing datastructure set
20:05	dnolen	kovasb: it's very JS specific.
20:05	mmarczyk	kovasb: it's one of the original cljs map types, the other being HashMap
20:06	kovasb	is it different from backing it with a java hash map?
20:06	kovasb	(instead of a js object)
20:06	mmarczyk	kovasb: Clojure isn't using maps backed with Java hash maps
20:07	kovasb	for the purposes of the objmap, js maps and java hash maps are equivalent? or am i missing something
20:08	mmarczyk	kovasb: on the JVM, there's just PersistentArrayMap (linear scan lookups for very small maps) and PersistentHashMap; but in CLJS we'd be missing out on the JS VMs' object lookup optimizations without a map type wrapping an object for the string-keys-only case
20:09	kovasb	mmarczyk: so you think there would be nothing to be gained to have a similar construct in jvm clojure?
20:10	kovasb	the basis of my analogy is, record also imply a definite, regular structure on the keys
20:11	kovasb	so that is not a new constraint in the space of clojure design
20:11	mmarczyk	kovasb: records are updateable in a persistent manner though
20:11	mmarczyk	kovasb: which Java maps are not
20:12	S11001001	kovasb: moreover, java hashmaps do not exploit that structure either (though the enummaps do)
20:12	mmarczyk	kovasb: I've actually written a library to wrap the immutable Guava collections for use with Clojure's collection library -- but the wrappers won't help you with updates, you'd have to unwrap, make your own copy + modifications, wrap again
20:13	mmarczyk	kovasb: no problem for the particular use case this was meant to support, but probably no good to have this sort of thing in core
20:14	mmarczyk	kovasb: and if you just want to use Java maps in Clojure through interop -- that's already a reasonably pleasant experience -- more so than using JS objects in CLJS, since JS objects are insane (hasOwnProperty :-P)
20:15	kovasb	mmarczyk: yeah, i see your point
20:21	yonkeltron	why have vectors?
20:22	gfredericks	in clojure? at all?
20:22	yonkeltron	in clojure
20:22	yonkeltron	i actually have an appreciation for vectors
20:22	gfredericks	they do 3 things as I see it
20:23	gfredericks	1) increase code readability by giving an alternate form to use
20:23	gfredericks	2) allow consise data literals, especially when you want the contents evaluated
20:23	gfredericks	3) as data structures, allow random access/update, in contrast to lists
20:24	yonkeltron	3 makes the most sense
20:24	gfredericks	I think 3) is used the least though
20:24	yonkeltron	see my earlier appreciation for vectors
20:24	yonkeltron	really?
20:24	yonkeltron	i understand but dislike 1
20:24	gfredericks	at least in my experience
20:25	emezeske	4) make things a tiny bit easier for newcomers, as they don't have to understand quoting on their first day
20:25	yonkeltron	emezeske: new comers to lisp, you mean
20:25	yonkeltron	?
20:25	emezeske	Yes
20:25	gfredericks	emezeske: 2.1? :)
20:25	emezeske	gfredericks: Heh, yeah, 2.1. :)
20:26	gfredericks	emezeske: I've used clojure for years but it was only like 2 weeks ago that I conciously realized that '((+ 1 2)) != [(+ 1 2)]
20:26	technomancy	yonkeltron: 1) is weird for a few days, but most of the objections to vectors-as-bindings are basically a re-hash of the same "whoa; parens are weird" objections the algol-family-fans raise to any lisp
20:26	gfredericks	i.e., conciously realized that that was a difference between quoted lists and vectors
20:26	emezeske	gfredericks: I hear that.
20:27	gfredericks	emezeske: I would've known the difference if you'd shown them to me of course
20:27	yonkeltron	technomancy: fair i suppose. that actually didn't freak me out too much
20:27	yonkeltron	especially not with maps!
20:27	gfredericks	but not if you'd asked "What are the differences between vectors and quoted lists?"
20:27	yonkeltron	i loved seeing map literals
20:28	technomancy	yonkeltron: the advantage of using vectors for binding in source is that it means nearly any time you see "(foo ...)" it means "call foo"
20:28	technomancy	there are very few exceptions
20:28	yonkeltron	interesting
20:28	gfredericks	technomancy: that is a good point
20:28	yonkeltron	i guess i should make a habit, then
20:28	yonkeltron	i have an inbuilt desire to pass around '(...)
20:29	gfredericks	yonkeltron: all those single-quotes! lisp is so weird!
20:30	yonkeltron	gfredericks: says the clojure fan...
20:30	kovasb	yonkeltron: unless you were born with it, it should be possible to unlearn :)
20:30	yonkeltron	kovasb: what if...um...what if you were born with it?
20:30	yonkeltron	i mean what if it was mabelline, also?
20:30	yonkeltron	but let's begin with born with it
20:30	kovasb	yonkeltron: then i would subject myself to a genetic study :)
20:31	gfredericks	perhaps his mother ate a lot of quoted lists
20:31	yonkeltron	kovasb: got it, i'll walk next door to the uni and ask if they'd like me
20:31	kovasb	yonkeltron: relationship between evolution and syntax hunger
20:31	yonkeltron	gfredericks: don't talk about my mom that way!!!!
20:31	kovasb	lol
20:31	gfredericks	"Did you just call my mother a function?"
20:31	yonkeltron	kovasb: computational biology, or, as i like to call it, a shortcut to publication for bullshit papers
20:31	mmarczyk	dnolen: first cut at IKVReduce -- http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-221
20:31	yonkeltron	gfredericks: yeah dude, and i let her map me off last night, etc. etc.
20:31	kovasb	hehe
20:32	yonkeltron	ok but vectors.
20:32	kovasb	"but he said he was side-effect free, so its ok"
20:32	yonkeltron	i got tested, i swear
20:32	yonkeltron	i can prove it
20:32	yonkeltron	i suppose an implied-global proof in the case of the terminology of prove
20:33	mmarczyk	(reduce-kv (fn [i k v] (if (> i 1000) (reduced i) (+ i k v))) 0 (apply hash-map (range 100))) now evaluates to 1011 in CLJS :-)
20:33	dnolen	mmarczyk: oooh nice :)
20:33	nDuff	whew
20:33	gfredericks	why does clojurescript not like my ns form?
20:34	gfredericks	(ns foo.bar (:require [baz.bang :as booze]))?
20:34	mmarczyk	dnolen: more complete port of the reduce lib forthcoming :-)
20:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: btw, do you know off the top of your head if (extend-type default IKVReduce ...slow implementation assuming coll is IMap...) is the correct way to implement a slow path default?
20:37	mmarczyk	gfredericks: really? could you paste the error message?
20:38	gfredericks	mmarczyk: oh it went away when I removed the docstring; guess cljs doesn't have ns docstrings?
20:38	mmarczyk	gfredericks: ah, I believe not
20:38	gfredericks	oh well
20:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: we should avoid extend-type default, I'm trying to get rid of that from CLJS
20:39	mmarczyk	gfredericks: introspection support for CLJS is something I'm planning to work on, so please bug me about this from time to time :-)
20:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: well here I guess it's actually not a big deal, since we control all associative types
20:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: coming to think about it.
20:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: except possibly Object, which needs its own impl anyway
20:40	yonkeltron	so i guess you don't even need clos or cousins in clojure
20:42	yonkeltron	not that you'd need it anyway if you didn't want it
20:44	gfredericks	okay so I have a crossover where I'm hoping to use shuffle, which apparently isn't present in cljs; what's the best way to supply it? If I (defn shuffle ...), wouldn't that make problems on the clojure side?
20:51	gfredericks	and what are the haps with dom libs for cljs?
20:51	gfredericks	I'm just doing something non-trivial with cljs for the first time
20:51	gfredericks	s/just//
20:54	mmarczyk	gfredericks: domina & enfocus ?
20:54	mmarczyk	gfredericks: https://github.com/levand/domina I think
20:54	mmarczyk	gfredericks: and it links to enfocus in the readme
20:54	gfredericks	mmarczyk: cool, thx
20:54	mmarczyk	gfredericks: oh, and of course ibdknox has jayq, which wraps jQuery
20:54	gfredericks	I remember those from the clj-west talk
20:55	pandeiro	gfredericks: crate as well for templating
20:56	yonkeltron	does clojurescript have any frameworks on top of it for things like MVC in the browser, etc.?
20:56	kovasb	yonkeltron: not yet, but i suspect there will be in the next month or so :)
20:57	pandeiro	clojurescript one implements a sort of MVC
20:58	kovasb	there are some partial solutions out there
20:58	kovasb	but they all have pretty big holes
20:59	pandeiro	nothing 'framework' yet yeah
20:59	yonkeltron	kovasb: details exist?
20:59	pandeiro	but already the essential libs are there imho
20:59	kovasb	yeah lemme find my rant to the mailing list :)
20:59	mmarczyk	kovasb: next month? :-)
20:59	mmarczyk	whew, done with the reprecating ObjMap patch -- at least for now
21:01	kovasb	yeah the problem with clojurescript one is that you can't have multiple copies of the same widget
21:01	kovasb	without manually engineering it for each situation like that
21:01	pandeiro	kovasb: what widget do you mean?
21:02	kovasb	pandeiro: anything for which a view is defined
21:02	mmarczyk	kovasb: which mailing list? the main ggroup? I'd like to read your rant :-)
21:02	kovasb	http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/0291471d79972c58
21:03	mmarczyk	thx!
21:03	kovasb	anyway, I have an alternate design I've been working on in conjunction with a larger-scale cljs app
21:03	kovasb	i suspect a few other people have their own solutions brewing
21:04	mmarczyk	ah yes, I've read that
21:05	gfredericks	are there any plans to enhance cljsbuild crossovers with that cljx project?
21:07	emezeske	gfredericks: Is there any reason cljx can't be used in cooperation with lein-cljsbuild?
21:07	emezeske	gfredericks: I might do some tighter integration at some point, but I think they can play well now (just turn off crossovers)
21:07	mmarczyk	kovasb: looking forward to seeing your solution
21:08	gfredericks	emezeske: I must not be familiar enough with either project. I'll look closer :)
21:08	gfredericks	emezeske: any tips on my crossover issue? (defining shuffle)
21:08	kovasb	mmarczyk: yeah, i look forward to help optimizing it:)
21:09	mmarczyk	kovasb: sounds great :-)
21:09	emezeske	gfredericks: sorry, crossover issue? do I need to scroll up?
21:09	gfredericks	emezeske: just not sure how to define shuffle for cljs only
21:10	emezeske	gfredericks: Oh, I see, uh, I am not sure I know how best to deal with that
21:12	gfredericks	it really doesn't come up that often?
21:24	gfredericks	hmm. lots of warnings of usage of undeclared vars within domina. is that expected?
21:26	dnolen	gfredericks: domina wasn't particular about declaration order, luke knows now
21:29	gfredericks	dnolen: okay, so it should work anyhow?
21:30	dnolen	gfredericks: domina works fine far as I know, JS doesn't care about declaration order.
21:32	gfredericks	right right. cool. thanks.
21:34	mmarczyk	dnolen: new patch ready @ CLJS-190
21:35	dnolen	mmarczyk: I tried applying that on master, doesn't work.
21:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: oh so I need to apply 213 first?
21:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: well yeah, and CLJS-218 & 220 too :-P
21:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: BUT, 218 is a bug fix
21:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: and 220 is, I think, a good feature & copy-and-paste from Clojure
21:36	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah I applied those.
21:37	mmarczyk	dnolen: great
21:37	dnolen	mmarczyk: doesn't Clojure have a TransientArrayMap?
21:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: sorry first time looking at 213
21:38	davertron	anyone here familiar with quil? I'm trying to figure out where my data directory is supposed to be because create-font seems to do nothing
21:38	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, and that's ported too
21:38	mmarczyk	dnolen: in CLJS-213
21:39	dnolen	mmarczyk: why no array-map fn?
21:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, ObjMap turns to PHM on (transient ...)
21:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, oversight
21:40	mmarczyk	dnolen: good catch, will fix in a sec
21:40	dnolen	mmarczyk: please update devnotes/corelib.org too.
21:40	ibdknox	and it hits 75% :)
21:41	dnolen	ibdknox: woot!
21:41	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, I have the vaguest of recollections of what that file is about -- will look into it
21:41	dnolen	mmarczyk: just a .org of what's been implemented.
21:41	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, do you mind if it's a separate patch on the 190 ticket then?
21:42	dnolen	mmarczyk: not at all, and you might as well mark the transient, persistent!, assoc!, conj! etc as being done as well.
21:42	dnolen	mmarczyk: actually don't worry about it.
21:43	dnolen	mmarczyk: just add array-map, I'll update corelib.org
21:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: cool
21:47	mmarczyk	dnolen: just noticed cljs.core/hash-map is not using transients -> http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-222
21:48	gfredericks	oh man I just put something in the dom with clojurescript
21:49	gfredericks	I am unstoppable.
21:49	emezeske	gfredericks: booyakasha!
21:49	kovasb	boomshakalaka
21:50	gfredericks	broom
21:50	kovasb	whoop there it is
21:50	dnolen	haha
21:54	mmarczyk	:-D
21:54	kovasb	its awesome that so many people are hacking on cljs
21:55	kovasb	though it will be funny if a year from now #clojure will be all cljs-lua
21:55	kovasb	people trying to get their iOS apps to work
21:55	gfredericks	oh man this is so beautiful I might cry
21:56	dnolen	gfredericks: I take it that it's the first time you've done much w/ CLJS?
21:56	kovasb	lol
21:56	mmarczyk	dnolen: posted new patches on 213 & 190
21:56	gfredericks	dnolen: anything I really care about, yeah
21:57	mmarczyk	gfredericks: that's exactly how I felt when Rich made the CLJS announcement
21:57	gfredericks	dnolen: I've done a surprising amount with CLJS considering I haven't done anything with CLJS
21:57	mmarczyk	"WJW... I too will now be able to hack on the DOM"
21:57	mmarczyk	well, maybe that's different
21:57	mmarczyk	but possibly same kind of feeling :-P
21:58	gfredericks	I too want to slow-jam the dom.
22:02	dnolen	mmarczyk: applied to master
22:02	mmarczyk	dnolen: great! thx
22:08	mmarczyk	ok, need to take my mind off of this for a couple of hours, then I'll do the TransientObjMap thing
22:08	gfredericks	read-string is not defined?
22:08	mmarczyk	turning to reduce lib for now
22:08	gfredericks	oh sep ns for reader
22:08	gfredericks	I remember
22:08	dnolen	mmarczyk: hmm I wonder about using dynamic binding for mutable locals for kvreduce.
22:08	mmarczyk	dnolen: to be honest -- me too
22:09	alex_baranosky	what is a good IRC client that I can tell to open the same bunch of IRC channels everytime I turn it on?
22:10	emezeske	alex_baranosky: I use irssi for that.
22:10	mmarczyk	dnolen: the problem is that the inner loop needs to return a couple of things to the outer loop
22:10	emezeske	alex_baranosky: It's not for the faint of heart though :)
22:10	amalloy	alex_baranosky: if you have an always-on computer somewhere (eg a vpn), you can run znc on that
22:10	mmarczyk	dnolen: could use an array for that of course
22:11	mmarczyk	dnolen: but that's a bunch of extra allocations :-/
22:11	amalloy	my znc server is always connected to freenode, and when i turn on my irc client i connect to znc instead of to freenode, and it "forces" my (dumb) irc client to join channels on startup
22:12	alex_baranosky	amalloy, cool idea
22:13	dnolen	mmarczyk: mmarczyk well just one allocation right? on entering kvreduce.
22:13	amalloy	this gets you other nice things like logging the irc traffic even when you don't have an IRC client turned on
22:13	mmarczyk	dnolen: one for each run of the inner loop
22:14	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh, I mean in the PersistentVector impl
22:14	dnolen	mmarczyk: yeah that's what I'm looking at.
22:14	mmarczyk	dnolen: incidentally, that impl is broken right now -- I've got a fix for one part of the problem here, working on the second part
22:15	alex_baranosky	did anyone see Rich Hickey's commit to Clojure today ? https://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/4a22e3a44df48ea0d37dd034bc3f6cb3092117a9
22:15	dnolen	alex_baranosky: yep
22:16	dnolen	mmarczyk: why do you need allocation inner loop? seems like you just something settable for step and init
22:16	alex_baranosky	what is the idea behind it?
22:16	dnolen	allocation in the inner loop
22:16	mmarczyk	dnolen: ohhh. gotcha.
22:16	mmarczyk	dnolen: fixing this with your approach now
22:17	mmarczyk	dnolen: I'm slightly worried about boxing
22:18	dnolen	mmarczyk: boxing of what?
22:19	mmarczyk	dnolen: boxing as in placing values in an array rather than their own variables
22:20	mmarczyk	dnolen: but actually I'm sure I don't have a particularly clear picture of the implications of that, so nvm
22:20	muhoo	ibdknox: i just sent someone to you who, from his description of the prototype he wants, needs your cljs skillz
22:20	dnolen	mmarczyk: maybe worth making a benchmark - though I'd be suprised if it made a big difference.
22:21	dnolen	alex_baranosky: rhickey said allocation free pipelines
22:21	dnolen	alex_baranosky: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/#17:02
22:21	muhoo	ibdknox: feel free to pm me if you want to discuss
22:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, I'll get it working with an array first
22:22	mmarczyk	dnolen: then maybe benchmark the binding approach too.
22:22	alex_baranosky	dnolen, I see now, I was looking at his second commit, the first one makes it clear that he's re-implementing reduce ... faster
22:24	gfredericks	what do I need to set to prn to the console?
22:24	gfredericks	(i.e., chrome console)
22:25	dnolen	gfredericks: just call (.log js/console (str ...))
22:26	gfredericks	oh, I inferred from the error message that prn gives that I could hook it into the cljs print functions
22:27	jroes	anyone on osx know how to get the little incoming connections box that instantaneously pops up to stop happening?
22:27	jroes	usually pops up when clojure tries to listen on a port
22:27	jroes	or something clojure-related
22:28	mmarczyk	dnolen: ok, posted new patch with a working impl of -kv-reduce for PV
22:28	mmarczyk	dnolen: array based
22:28	alex_baranosky	dnolen, thanks for the link, reading through it now
22:30	dnolen	mmarczyk: excellent.
22:30	dnolen	mmarczyk: so for reduce combinators I imagine you'll make a seperate file?
22:32	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah, that would be most convenient, though then it should probably be clearly documented that the Reduced thing is WIP
22:32	mmarczyk	dnolen: since it doesn't work with the regular reduce yet
22:32	mmarczyk	dnolen: or I could work on this ticket a bit more to make it work with reduce and then port the combinators namespace in a separate ticket
22:34	dnolen	mmarczyk: but that's true for Clojure at the moment too right?
22:35	dnolen	mmarczyk: oh, actually, no that's not true.
22:36	mmarczyk	dnolen: yeah
22:37	mmarczyk	dnolen: so, not sure whether it's same ticket or separate -- also, no preference here, it doesn't affect my workflow much :-)
22:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: lets make them separate, if only for documentation reasons.
22:38	mmarczyk	dnolen: sure
22:38	dnolen	mmarczyk: well that and I can apply kvreduce patch now.
22:39	mmarczyk	dnolen: oh great :-D
22:43	mmarczyk	dnolen: hm, apparently I missed PAM, though I could swear I had an impl earlier
22:44	mmarczyk	dnolen: will post an updated patch in a moment
22:48	mmarczyk	dnolen: done
22:48	mmarczyk	gfredericks: cool :-)
22:48	mmarczyk	gfredericks: would you consider posting it somewhere? :-)
22:49	gfredericks	oh I guess so
22:50	gfredericks	mmarczyk: https://refheap.com/paste/2482
22:50	gfredericks	I don't know that that exact version works in clj, given the (def shuffle ...)
22:52	mmarczyk	gfredericks: I love you shuffle impl :-D
22:52	gfredericks	mmarczyk: thanks :)
22:53	amalloy	&(sort-by rand '(a b c d))?
22:53	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
22:53	gfredericks	amalloy hates my shuffle impl
22:53	amalloy	even if the input is all numbers it's a terrible sort algorithm
22:54	amalloy	sorry bro
22:54	amalloy	er, terrible shuffle
22:54	gfredericks	I'm confused as to why it worked then
22:54	gfredericks	because I wasn't sorting numbers
22:55	gfredericks	where is cljs-bot when you need him?
22:55	mmarczyk	:-)
22:55	amalloy	gfredericks: i have a lazy-shuffle implementation if you want it
22:55	amalloy	in useful.seq, i think
22:55	gfredericks	amalloy: will it work in cljs?
22:55	amalloy	it should
22:56	amalloy	i mean, you'll have to copy the code, since it's not in any cljs jars
22:56	gfredericks	of course
22:56	amalloy	https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L143
22:56	gfredericks	thx
22:58	gfredericks	amalloy: in any case I think it's a little extreme to call O(n log n) "terrible"
22:58	gfredericks	I prefer "mildly slow"
22:58	amalloy	gfredericks: no, i mean it does a terrible job of shuffling - the result is not very random
22:59	gfredericks	wth
22:59	gfredericks	why not?
22:59	amalloy	consider ##(sort-by rand [0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1])
22:59	lazybot	⇒ (0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1)
22:59	amalloy	the 0 will always come first, because (rand 0) is always less than (rand 1)
22:59	gfredericks	oh rand is not doing what I wanted it to
23:00	amalloy	even if you were tossing a coin at every comparison, which i assume is what you meant
23:00	gfredericks	(partial sort-by #(rand)) is apparently what I meant
23:00	amalloy	then i'm told it's still pretty bad, because sort algorithms have different goals from shuffle algorithms
23:00	gfredericks	bad in its ordering or performance?
23:01	mmarczyk	well it probably produces a non-uniform shuffle
23:01	amalloy	you wind up with stuff like "the first item in the input list is very likely to be either the first or last item in the output list"
23:01	amalloy	right
23:01	amalloy	(though the particular error case there, i just made up - i doubt it's that simple)
23:01	gfredericks	I can't see why anything like that would happen
23:01	gfredericks	we're assuming each item is associated with a random element of [0,1)?
23:02	gfredericks	&(rand)
23:02	lazybot	⇒ 0.3245122350535715
23:02	tmciver	What about just using ##(doc shuffle)
23:02	lazybot	⇒ "([coll]); Return a random permutation of coll"
23:02	gfredericks	tmciver: cljs
23:02	clojurebot	Huh?
23:02	amalloy	gfredericks: but you're not associating each item with a random number once
23:03	tmciver	Ah, can't do it, I guess. I know nothing of cljs.
23:03	mmarczyk	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-223
23:03	amalloy	you're changing, at random, the number it's associated with every time you compare it to something
23:03	gfredericks	amalloy: oh I thought caching the value was part of the contract
23:03	amalloy	no
23:03	mmarczyk	gfredericks: ^ support for ns docstrings -- or rather for discarding of docstrings
23:03	gfredericks	well poo poo
23:03	amalloy	mmarczyk: is there some reason he can't just write (ns ^{:doc "..."} my.ns ...)?
23:03	gfredericks	why shouldn't it cache? the fn might be expensive, and what is there to lose from it?
23:04	amalloy	shrug perhaps the function is cheap to compute, but expensive to store
23:04	mmarczyk	amalloy: oh sure, but (1) it's ugly, (2) it's doesn't actually work in Clojure
23:05	amalloy	if you want it cached, (map first (sort-by second (map (juxt identity sort-fn) coll))), right?
23:05	gfredericks	okay this starbucks is closing so I have to go
23:05	amalloy	aw, sad-face re (2) there
23:05	mmarczyk	(let [tag (memoize (fn [_] (rand)))] (sort-by tag ...))
23:06	gfredericks	thanks for the enlightening discussion :)
23:06	mmarczyk	see you :-)
23:09	amalloy	mmarczyk: cute. still has problems if the list elements aren't unique, though
23:09	mmarczyk	amalloy: take-shuffled is very pretty
23:09	amalloy	i'm glad you like it!
23:10	mmarczyk	amalloy: I think I'll have an enjoyable session of reading through useful very soon :-)
23:10	amalloy	yeah, i had a lot of fun translating fisher-yates into a functional context
23:11	mmarczyk	amalloy: a, good catch
23:11	amalloy	somewhere fliebel has a blog post comparing performance of a bunch of different shuffle implementations, including mine. there are tradeoffs, of course
23:11	mmarczyk	amalloy: I'm pretty sure I've got a straightforward fisher-yates impl lying around somewhere, but can't find it
23:12	mmarczyk	amalloy: but the take-shuffled idea is nice apart from the algo
23:12	amalloy	how so? just the idea of a lazy shuffle, or...?
23:13	mmarczyk	yeah, plus implementing it on top of lazy-loop
23:14	mmarczyk	just overall pretty :-)
23:14	amalloy	heh, i implement everrrrything on top of lazy-loop. i love that macro
23:14	mmarczyk	:-)
23:17	TimMc	gfredericks: (sort-by (memoize rand) ...) Done! :-P
23:17	mmarczyk	amalloy: wow, haven't looked at useful in a pretty long while and only vaguely remembered how cool it is
23:17	TimMc	Aw, someone already pulled out memoize.
23:17	amalloy	mmarczyk: say, since you're already in there and seem to be educated on this sort of thing, would you mind looking at https://github.com/flatland/useful/blob/develop/src/useful/seq.clj#L219 for me? in particular it's hard to believe that our implementation of the 3+ collection version is the fastest way to do it, but in the context of laziness it actually does seem to be
23:18	mmarczyk	amalloy: an alternative / add-on core lib, basically
23:19	mmarczyk	amalloy: looking now
23:28	muhoo	ibdknox: oops, nevermind. in 2 weeks, i predict you'll be the ceo of the newly-funded lighttable, inc. and won't be doing iwbyp's anymore.
23:29	LuminousMonkey	What with all the narkyness some people get with Light Table anyway? It's odd.
23:30	ibdknox	muhoo: haha, yeah I'm not taking any projects right now :)
23:38	mmarczyk	amalloy: no idea if it's going to be any faster, but here's what I'd do for a multiway merge: https://gist.github.com/2564705
23:39	amalloy	intersesting
23:40	mmarczyk	amalloy: although apparently it's buggy... oh bother
23:41	mmarczyk	amalloy: ah, fortunately it was my test that was buggy :-P
23:47	mmarczyk	amalloy: but coming to think about it, useful's version is lazy in the binary case, right? so it should be optimal in the >= 3 arg case
23:47	amalloy	right, that's why i think it works, it just seems surprising that it comes out so easily as a result of laziness
23:48	mmarczyk	yeah, however awesome one thinks that laziness is, it is more awesome still
23:49	wmealing	LuminousMonkey, re "narky", i think its jealousy.
23:49	muhoo	LuminousMonkey: wasn't snark, i was realizing i made an error
23:49	wmealing	LuminousMonkey, resistance to change, and a bit of friendly jabs.
23:50	LuminousMonkey	muhoo: No, sorry, I wasn't meaning you. It just reminded me of a post on the programming reddit I read this morning.
23:51	muhoo	damn, i dunno what to do then. what i'm being asked to do is above my skill level.
23:51	muhoo	i'm 3 months into clojure, haven't touched cljs, and now being asked to do something along the lines of what ibdknox has done.
23:52	muhoo	i have to turn this down.
23:52	LuminousMonkey	wmealing: Yeah, most of it sounds like sour grapes to me, sounds like ibdknox must be on the right track. :)
23:52	wmealing	i think of it this way
23:52	wmealing	even if he fails, he's going to try something that people havn't done before
23:52	wmealing	and we can learn from it
23:52	muhoo	it ain't gonna fail. no way.
23:53	wmealing	it may not be everyones "idealized" editor
23:53	wmealing	but what will be.
23:53	wmealing	nothing
23:53	wmealing	"its not emacs, its not vim uwuwuwuw"
23:53	LuminousMonkey	Well, I was thinking the same thing when I watched that presentation, I was thinking how cool it would be to write an IDE that does that. :)
23:53	wmealing	yup
23:54	LuminousMonkey	wmealing: Not sure about Vim, but I'm sure you could get something like that in Emacs, that's what I was considering.
23:54	LuminousMonkey	wmealing: But I lack talent. :)
23:54	wmealing	i'm a newbie emacser
23:54	muhoo	ask technomancy about trying to make major changes in emacs :-)
23:54	wmealing	emacsen
23:54	wmealing	i really only started using it for clojure
23:55	LuminousMonkey	muhoo: I wish I could just have a Clojure based Emacs. :)
23:55	ibdknox	I laugh everytime someone says "oh that could just be a (vim\|emacs) plugin"
23:55	wmealing	good luck with that.
23:55	wmealing	no canvas in either, from what i can see.
23:55	ibdknox	the UI layers are 20+ years old
23:56	wmealing	getting anything changed will take multiple years.
23:56	LuminousMonkey	Well, Steve Yegge was saying that browsers, etc, were catching up with Emacs, Emacs isn't innovating enough.
23:56	wmealing	see, there was moz's bespin project
23:57	wmealing	i think its called something else now... that did some kind of IDE work in the browser.
23:57	ibdknox	they went about that the wrong way
23:57	ibdknox	cloud9 ide
23:57	ibdknox	and ACE
23:57	ibdknox	is what bespin turned into
23:57	wmealing	yeah, i couldnt follow what happened there..
23:57	wmealing	it looked promising
23:57	ibdknox	the key isn't to compete with editors that already exist
23:57	ibdknox	you'll never win
23:57	wmealing	agree on that.
23:57	LuminousMonkey	http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com.au/2008/04/xemacs-is-dead-long-live-xemacs.html
23:58	ibdknox	emacs and vim have far too big of a headstart
23:58	LuminousMonkey	The "The bad news: the competition isn't the IDEs" part
23:58	ibdknox	the thing to do is to play a game that they can't play no matter how hard they try
23:58	LuminousMonkey	I think..
23:59	muhoo	that's how it has always been, indeed. skate to where the puck is going, not where it's been.