#clojure – 2012-04-15

2012-04-15

00:10	jakko	anyone have any recent instructions (e.g. a blog post) for setting up emacs+slime+clojure on ubuntu 12.04?
00:10	jakko	thx
00:14	crassus	jakko: http://www.tekbot.com/clojure-simple-start.pdf
00:14	crassus	jakko: http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/
02:34	eggsby	what's the simplest way to give a function parameter a default value?
02:40	eggsby	specifically I have a function that takes [[arg OPTIONAL_ARG] some-other &args], how can I say 'if optional arg isnt provided set it at some default value' ?
02:41	eggsby	I guess by using :keys and :or ?
02:49	jakko	crassus: thank you
02:52	zii-prime	I have (in essence) (defn called-with-some-sort-of-input [name val] (eval `(def ~name ~(do-processing-on val)))); is there any clean way to avoid the eval? I'm only using it because def is (like) a macro.
02:55	michaelr525	heya
03:08	zii-prime	in short: Wrapping a macro in a function, like say (fn [& args] (eval `(def ~@args))): is there any clean way to avoid the eval?
03:49	muhoo	somewhat off-topic, but note the presence of "like" and "dislike" keys on the far right of symbolics lisp keyboards, long before mark zuckerberg was born: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Space-cadet.jpg
03:54	AimHere	The 'It wasn't me, it was that guy next to me' keys below the like and dislike keys have yet to find their implementation on the greater internet even now. Truly, the Lisp machines were ahead of their time
03:57	muhoo	i think those are the "i'm with stupid" keys
03:57	muhoo	indeed, they are coming.
04:17	laurus	Is there a network analysis library for Clojure?
04:49	espeed	How do you use defmulti to create a function that can have zero, one, or two arguments?
04:52	thorwil	espeed: you don't need defmulti for that, a normal function with several signatures/bodies will do
04:54	espeed	Normally yes, but I need to use type hinting to distinguish between a single Integer arg and a single Map arg
04:55	espeed	(I'm wrapping a Java method)
05:03	Hali_3031	hi! how to :use a protocol? I mean what's the easiest way to :use all methods of a protocol ?
05:13	raek	Hali_3031: if you have (defprotocol P (a ...) (b ...) (c ...)) in namespace foo, then you can access a, b, and c from foo like if they were defns
05:13	raek	for example, (ns bar (:use [foo :only [a b c]]))
05:29	pooya72	hello, i'm trying to compile a simply program, but I get a "NoClassDefFoundError" http://pastebin.com/5FHhRU6t
05:32	tomoj	what do you run that produces that error?
05:33	pooya72	java -cp [programname].standalone.jar "sample text"
05:35	pooya72	tomoj: java -cp [programname].standalone.jar "sample text"
05:38	tomoj	hhmm
05:39	tomoj	can you paste the exact command you ran?
05:39	tomoj	the error seems to be caused by incorrect arguments to java, but what you just wrote looks correct to me..
05:39	tomoj	oh, no
05:40	tomoj	you need `java -cp scribee-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.jar class.name.to.run "sample text"` I think
05:40	tomoj	where class.name.to.run in your example would be program.core I think
05:41	pooya72	tomoj: you da man
05:41	pooya72	it worked
05:42	pooya72	any way to do it without needing the classname at the command line?
05:42	tomoj	are you using leiningen?
05:42	pooya72	yes
05:43	pooya72	lein uberjar
05:43	tomoj	oh, then if you specify :main in your project.clj
05:43	tomoj	it will set up the uberjar main-class
05:43	tomoj	so that you can `java -jar uberjar.jar "sample text"`
05:44	pooya72	yeah, i have added that
05:44	pooya72	:main program.core
05:51	tomoj	so using -jar instead of -cp should make what you originally had work
05:52	tomoj	you should also be able to do `lein run -- "sample text"`
05:52	tomoj	even without an uberjar
05:54	pooya72	yeah I didn't know about lein run
05:54	pooya72	it works perfect with that
05:54	pooya72	with java it still needs the classname
05:55	tomoj	even when you use -jar instead of -cp?
05:56	tomoj	it should either say "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute..." or run your main class
05:57	pooya72	tomoj: no you're right, it works fine! thanks!!
05:58	tomoj	don't thank me, thank təchnomancy :)
05:58	pooya72	first command line program made http://www.memecreator.net/images/success-kid.jpg !
05:58	laurus	I am getting the error "Could not find artifact net.sf.jung:jung2:jar:2.0.1 in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)". But according to the web site, it's there. What is wrong?
06:00	raek	laurus: what did you put in the :dependencies in your project.clj file?
06:00	laurus	raek, [net.sf.jung/jung2 "2.0.1"]
06:01	tomoj	there is no jar there
06:01	tomoj	only a pom
06:01	laurus	tomoj, oh, weird. Why?
06:01	tomoj	dunno, ask jung.sf.net.. :/
06:01	laurus	Hah. OK. But how do I fix the problem in the meantime?
06:01	raek	I think it is one of those poms that contains sub-poms
06:02	raek	(I don't know the correct maven terminology)
06:02	tomoj	yeah..
06:02	tomoj	so.. does that mean you have to go find the actual jars you want and add them to deps manually?
06:02	raek	I wouldn't expect so
06:03	tomoj	I don't think lein1 can traverse pom dependencies like maven
06:03	laurus	I am on lein2.
06:03	tomoj	I don't think lein2 can either, but I don't use it and don't know :)
06:03	laurus	tomoj, it's ok. But should I just download the .jar and put it into that directory?
06:03	tomoj	well, if you can find the jars you really want in http://repo1.maven.org/maven2/net/sf/jung/
06:04	tomoj	you can just add them to :dependencies like normal
06:04	raek	laurus: I think it would be safer to put all the sub-projects in :depednencies instead
06:04	raek	downloading jars manually is rarely worth the effort
06:05	laurus	Interesting. Maybe "jung2" isn't even a real thing, it's just a name for a bunch of smaller libraries.
06:05	raek	yes, I think so
06:05	raek	look at "<modules>" here: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/inspect-pom/net/sf/jung/jung2/2.0.1/jung2-2.0.1.pom
06:06	raek	it's weird. I'm pretty sure contrib used this approach at one time.
06:07	laurus	It's funny, people complain a lot about this Maven stuff, but in some ways it seems better than the Python Package Index in that you can control all this stuff
06:07	laurus	With PyPI as I recall if you use easy_install it just installs things right into the OS, making a mess
06:07	raek	hrm, it has "profiles". maybe you need to qualify the [net.sf.jung/jung2 "2.0.1"] line with "all", "awt, or "j3s" somehow
06:08	laurus	Ah I see that part.
06:08	laurus	Well it's ok. I'll just use the partial ones for now.
06:08	laurus	I've never even used this library before so I don't know what I'm doing anyway.
06:08	laurus	:)
06:10	raek	laurus: you can also try asking here (or in #leiningen) again in a couple of hours
06:11	raek	at this time, it's usually just the europeans who are active
06:11	laurus	Ah ok. :)
06:11	laurus	That reminds me of that recent video of Larry Wall when he talks about how they even have a Perl programmer in Antarctica.
06:12	fliebel	There must be some sort of algo for generating raster/integer/step/pixel values for a line, right?
06:14	tomoj	fliebel: one is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bresenham%27s_line_algorithm
06:14	fliebel	tomoj: Thanks
06:15	fliebel	What I'm trying to do is move 2 stepper motors in a diagonal line. They take input in the form of a byte, with a bit for every motor.
06:16	fliebel	So I need to figure out a pattern that will move them the correct angle.
06:19	tomoj	is there a more abstract way to describe that?
06:21	laurus	I have the jung-api listed in dependencies for the project. I have run lein repl. How do I use that library now? (or is there somewhere that explains this in detail for newcomers?)
06:28	fliebel	tomoj: Well, I need to translate a line into a sequence of commands like 'wait', 'up', 'down'
06:33	fliebel	So of a line goes diagonal, it's just 11,11,11, but it might also need to go 11,10,11,10, or even more elaborate patterns.
06:36	tomoj	I don't see how 11,11,11 corresponds to a diagonal line. each bit is a command to a stepper motor, but what do the commands mean?
06:37	fliebel	tomoj: Make one step. there is another command to set the direction. So 0 means no step, 1 means step.
06:39	fliebel	hehe, probabilistic method: make a list of steps al steps in the x and y direction, shuffle it. :D
06:43	laurus	I am running (:import [edu.uci.ics.jung.graph SparseGraph]) but receiving ClassNotFoundException. However, the library has been properly installed through lein in Maven. What is going on?
06:46	tomoj	laurus: jar tf deps/the-jar-you-think-the-class-is-in.jar
06:46	tomoj	(\| grep SparseGraph)
06:47	tomoj	also, did you restart your jvm after installing the dep?
06:48	laurus	tomoj, what is that line of code?
06:48	laurus	And yes I restarted the JVM, thanks.
06:48	tomoj	`jar tf foo.jar` lists the contents of foo.jar
06:49	tomoj	if you do `jar tf foo.jar \| grep SparseGraph` (assuming you're not on windows), it should show you whether or not foo.jar contains a class named SparseGraph
06:49	laurus	Wait a sec. The name of the thing in Maven is different from the package.
06:50	laurus	tomoj, yes, it shows that it does contain it.
06:51	tomoj	and `lein classpath` includes the jar that contains the class?
06:51	tomoj	I can't explain that
06:52	laurus	Let me check that.
06:52	laurus	Yes, it does contain it.
06:52	laurus	I'm using inferior-lisp mode. Is that part of the problem?
06:54	tomoj	the only explanations I can think of are: you didn't restart the jvm, or the class (and package) name you are trying to import does not match the one in the jar
06:54	laurus	How do I restart the JVM from the command line?
06:54	tomoj	dunno, how did you start it?
06:54	laurus	I just ran "lein repl"
06:55	tomoj	then ctrl+c or ctrl+d should work
06:55	laurus	Right, let me try that again.
06:55	tomoj	followed by `lein repl` again, which I assume you did..
06:55	fliebel	Wow, what a clusterfuck. http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Bitmap/Bresenham's_line_algorithm#Clojure
06:56	laurus	Ah, I see the problem.
06:56	laurus	How do I make lein use a dependency for any project?
06:57	tomoj	put the dependency in that project's project.clj?
06:59	laurus	It still failed.
06:59	laurus	But I'm running "lein repl" from a directory that isn't the one for the project that includes that dependency.
06:59	laurus	Does that make a difference?
06:59	tomoj	..yes
06:59	laurus	Right, so how do I make lein load a dependency for any project?
07:00	tomoj	put the dependency in that project's project.clj
07:00	laurus	Hmm. The problem is that I don't know how to control "where" the lein command is run from.
07:00	tomoj	plugins can be installed globally
07:01	laurus	Right now it's (setq inferior-lisp-program "lein repl")))
07:01	laurus	Wait, plugin?
07:01	tomoj	why aren't you using clojure-jack-in?
07:01	Hali_3031	raek: sorry for the late answer. with regards to protocol :use-ing, importing the method names one by one is what I'd like to avoid. Is there some syntax for importing protocol P and then later referring to P's method with some syntax like P/methodname?
07:02	Hali_3031	as if P were a namespace
07:02	laurus	tomoj, I never had a problem with just using inferior-lisp mode until now
07:02	tomoj	because you never used any dependencies outside the one project that `lein repl` happens to get called in (the place you started emacs?)?
07:02	laurus	tomoj, yeah I guess that's why :)
07:03	laurus	Also, I didn't know that people had separated things from SLIME.
07:03	tomoj	do you have a function called clojure-jack-in available?
07:03	laurus	Not yet. Let me set that up now
07:04	tomoj	the readme here is the best I think https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
07:04	laurus	Yes, reading it now, thanks :)
07:05	fliebel	tomoj: This looks more like it: http://www.cb.uu.se/~cris/blog/index.php/archives/400 Although it does some implicit array magic...
07:05	laurus	Does lein2 support this?
07:08	fliebel	Clojure kept giving me syntax errors, until I realized I was in the Python shell.
07:08	tomoj	I haven't upgraded yet, but `lein2 swank` seems to work here
07:09	laurus	Thank goodness. It worked.
07:09	laurus	tomoj, thank you so much!
07:21	fliebel	hrm, why doesn't Clojure have arithmetic operations on lists? That matlab code looks soo sweet.
07:22	Iceland_jack	fliebel: what do you mean?
07:22	fliebel	Iceland_jack: http://www.cb.uu.se/~cris/blog/index.php/archives/400
07:22	fliebel	I need to do all sorts of apply/map/reduce combos.
07:23	Iceland_jack	For real...
08:17	raek	Hali_3031: no. the protocol methods are vars in their containing namespace.
08:17	raek	Hali_3031: but you can use the regular 'require' and 'use' to access them more conveniently
08:18	raek	(ns bar (:require [namespace.that.defines.the.protocol :as p])) (p/method ...)
08:18	raek	(ns bar (:use [namespace.that.defines.the.protocol :only [method]])) (method ...)
08:18	raek	(ns bar (:use [namespace.that.defines.the.protocol])) (method ...)
08:18	raek	the last one is discouraged
08:19	raek	I'd recommend going with 'require' and an :as prefix
08:23	raek	name structure is much more flat in clojure than in languages with classes
08:27	Bahman	Hi all!
08:27	Bahman	How can I call a function if I have only its fully qualified name like "someapp.somens.foo"?
08:29	raek	Bahman: if you have the name as a symbol, you can use 'resolve'
08:29	raek	&(resolve 'clojure.core/print)
08:29	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! resolve is bad!
08:30	Bahman	raek: What if its namespace is not imported/required/used?
08:30	raek	Bahman: beware of the security implications of doing this. there is a good reason that the bots don't allow it.
08:30	raek	Bahman: then you need to require it first
08:30	Bahman	raek: I understand. I have it fully under control.
08:30	Bahman	raek: But is it possible during runtime?
08:32	raek	if you have a fully qualified symbol in "sym", it should be as simple as (do (require (namespace sym)) ((resolve sym) ...))
08:32	raek	Bahman: certainly
08:32	Bahman	raek: Thank you very much!
08:32	_KY_	Can someone guide me to install emacs clojure mode on windows?
08:33	raek	_KY_: sure, have you followed the instructions on https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode ?
08:33	_KY_	I think I did it before... but I forgot
08:33	_KY_	I'm not even sure if I'm in clojure mode or not
08:34	raek	_KY_: the mode-line should include "Clojure" when you visit a .clj file if it is installed
08:35	_KY_	Oh yes... it has (Clojure)
08:38	raek	you can also do M-: (clojure-mode-version) <RET> to determine which version you have
08:39	raek	_KY_: another pointer: when you want to run clojure in emacs, follow the official docs for swank-clojure https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
08:42	_KY_	Not sure if I have Leiningen yet... can I install it on windows?
08:42	raek	yes
08:53	_KY_	Where is my project.clj?
08:54	Licenser	_KY_ in theory in your poject folder
08:54	_KY_	Is it emacs?
08:55	Bahman	raek: It works wonderfully! https://gist.github.com/2392610
08:56	mdeboard	_KY_: No it's just a file on your hard drive
08:57	_KY_	But where is its path?
08:58	unlink	Is there a better idiom for this? (if (some-condition) x (-> x (f) (g)))
08:59	unlink	i.e. conditionally thread x based on
08:59	raek	_KY_: even if you just want to play with the clojure repl you need to create a project
09:00	_KY_	I'm talking about this line: Aed [lein-swank "one.4.4"] to the :plugins section of either project.clj or your user profile.
09:00	raek	_KY_: the project.clj file specifies the version of clojure and libraries to use
09:00	raek	_KY_: so you need to do something like "lein new tinkering"
09:01	_KY_	I see... got it...
09:02	mdeboard	Does compiling Clojure seem like a brittle process to anyone else?
09:02	mdeboard	I have a hell of a time getting my standalone jars to run at all, and the error message is never useful
09:03	mdeboard	"Could not find the main class: datdoop.core. Program will exit."
09:03	mdeboard	Oh ok, thanks
09:03	raek	mdeboard: is this an uberjar?
09:04	raek	_KY_: you can add lein-swank both in your user profile or in the project file. it's recommended to keep it in your user settings, but I don't know where that file is on windows
09:05	_KY_	So it's lein's user profile?
09:05	raek	on unix-like OSes it is in ~/.lein/profiles.clj
09:06	raek	_KY_: yes. you want to tell leiningen that you would like to have lein-swank available in all projects you work with
09:06	_KY_	I see...
09:07	raek	so profiles.clj should contain {:user {:plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.3"]]}}
09:10	raek	_KY_: sorry, did you install the stable (1.7.1) or the preview (2.0.0) version?
09:20	_KY_	I got a "could not start swank server" error in emacs
09:22	raek	_KY_: profiles is a new fieature of lein2. if you installed the stable version you need to run `lein plugin install lein-swank 1.4.4` instead of adding it to the profiles file
09:24	raek	things are a bit messy now in the lein1 -> lein2 transition period
09:25	raek	_KY_: you could try running `lein swank` in the project directory to see what the error is
09:25	_KY_	It says unable to find lein-swank:jar:one.4.4 in repository central
09:25	raek	after it is solved, you can kill the swank server and go back to clojure-jack-in
09:26	raek	that line isn't an error. that just maven spitting out it thoughts.
09:26	raek	(leiningen searches multiple repositories)
09:26	_KY_	So it says "created lein-swank-1.4.4.jar
09:27	_KY_	But when I do "lein swank" in project dir, java throws an exception "no source file"
09:28	raek	_KY_: can you paste the stacktrace somewhere?
09:28	raek	what does the exception say?
09:28	_KY_	"Dependencies must be specified as vector:lein-swank"
09:30	raek	sounds like you wrote :plugins [lein-swank "1.4.4"] instead of :plugins [[lein-swank "1.4.4"]]
09:30	_KY_	Oh... hold on =)
09:35	_KY_	Ok it says "connection opened on 4005"
09:36	_KY_	So "lein swank" works?
09:37	_KY_	I closed that now
09:37	raek	good. yes.
09:37	raek	clojure-jack-in should work now
09:37	_KY_	It still doesn't work...
09:37	_KY_	(Error "Could not start swank server: '$SHELL' is not recognized as an internal or external command,
09:37	_KY_	Operable program or batch file.
09:40	raek	_KY_: which version of clojure-mode are you using?
09:41	_KY_	How do I find out?
09:41	raek	in emacs, do M-: (clojure-mode-version) <RET>
09:42	volton	,24
09:42	clojurebot	24
09:42	volton	Hi, why doesn't this work?
09:42	volton	,(def (symbol "fourty two") 42)
09:42	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
09:42	volton	well, you get the point ;-)
09:42	llasram	volton: What do you expect it to do?
09:42	raek	volton: because the 'def' special form does not evaluate its first argument
09:43	volton	raek: A-ha!
09:43	volton	and why is that?
09:43	raek	I don't think def is meant to be called programmatically
09:44	raek	volton: are you doing some kind of meta-programming?
09:44	_KY_	Is that M-:?
09:44	raek	yeah, alt + colon
09:45	volton	raek: No, I just wanted to try if I could bind something to fourty two
09:45	raek	heh I should have put quotes around that.. :)
09:46	volton	which would be logical in a way since fourty two is a symbol but illogical in another way since I don't know how you could evaluate that symbol
09:46	_KY_	"1.11.5"
09:46	raek	volton: yeah, clojure does not enforce symbol name rules very strictly
09:47	raek	you can do (intern ns (symbol "fourty two"))
09:47	AimHere	I think you can make your own def with (defmacro mydef [a & body] `(def ~(quote a) ~@body))
09:47	raek	but you cannot use that var in ordinary code (because of the space)
09:47	AimHere	That'll resolve the expression
09:47	raek	sorry, (intern ns (symbol "fourty two") 42)
09:48	raek	but you can still access it programmatically: (deref (resolve (symbol "fourty two")))
09:50	raek	_KY_: I think the error is in clojure-mode, since lein swank started without errors
09:50	_KY_	It says "Debugger entered--Lisp error: ...."
09:51	volton	AimHere: your code leads to 42 getting bound to the symbol a
09:52	gfredericks	AimHere: yeah I think you meant for ~a not ~(quote a)
09:52	gfredericks	though I don't think that macro buys you anything over def
09:53	volton	So I guess the thing to learn here is to always create symbos implicitly and not call (symbol)?
09:53	AimHere	Yeah, I made a mistake
09:53	Chousuke	you can use symbol but you have to be careful that the created symbols are valid
09:53	Chousuke	since there are no checks
09:54	raek	_KY_: the problem seems to come from here: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L967
09:55	volton	Chousuke: that seems illogical to me: why does symbol create invalid symbols?
09:56	raek	_KY_: is the lein.bat file on the PATH so emacs can find it?
09:56	Chousuke	volton: because it doesn't check if the input strings are valid
09:56	_KY_	Ahh... I have lein in cygwin...
09:56	_KY_	But I'm running emacs in windows
09:56	_KY_	Could that be the problem?
09:56	Chousuke	volton: basically, if you give it invalid parameters, you get invalid symbols
09:56	volton	Chousuke: well and I guess the symbol is not really invalid sine it can be used for intern just fine
09:57	Chousuke	it is invalid in that your program might stop working one day
09:57	Chousuke	it's like C's undefined behaviour
09:57	Chousuke	it executes, but the results are not guaranteed
09:58	volton	So you say that (intern)'s behaviour is not defined in this regard?
09:58	Chousuke	what does intern do? :/
09:58	raek	_KY_: I suspect so. I think all clojure-mode needs is for the lein script to be on the path
09:58	Hali_3031	raek: yes I know methods are regular functions as seen from the outside, however my problem is the following: I'd like to re-use a specific overloaded version of a protocol method. For example I'd like to call "method" that dispatches on java.lang.String WITHOUT actually having a string. i just know the class, but don't have an instance. is this possible?
09:58	volton	,(doc intern)
09:58	Chousuke	anyway, it's just symbol. you can give it strings that have invalid symbol characters in them like spaces
09:58	clojurebot	"([ns name] [ns name val]); Finds or creates a var named by the symbol name in the namespace ns (which can be a symbol or a namespace), setting its root binding to val if supplied. The namespace must exist. The var will adopt any metadata from the name symbol. Returns the var."
09:59	Chousuke	right, that can break too if you give it an invalid symbol
09:59	Chousuke	currently it works I think but it might not
09:59	Chousuke	so if you use symbol, you should take care not to create invalid symbols with it
09:59	raek	Hali_3031: I don't think so. not unless the protocol implementation is also available as a function
10:00	volton	Chousuke: okay :-)
10:00	volton	well I leaned something new today, thanks everybody!
10:01	Chousuke	I think there's an issue about making symbol validate its input
10:01	Chousuke	but no-one has got around to doing it.
10:01	Hali_3031	raek: I see, thanks. I'll look into some workaround then
10:01	volton	well, actually I think that symbol should always return a valid symbol
10:02	volton	Chousuke: Do you think I should open an issue?
10:02	Chousuke	volton: there already is one
10:02	Chousuke	volton: it just doesn't matter enough to get solved
10:03	_KY_	I started emacs in cygwin, but now clojure mode is lost
10:03	Chousuke	part of symbol's contract is that you don't call it with invalid input :p
10:03	raek	ah, different environment variables...
10:04	volton	would there be any harm in having (symbol "my pretty symbol") return my-pretty-symbol?
10:05	raek	_KY_: you could try adding (setenv "PATH" (concat (getenv "PATH") "path/here")) (setq exec-path (append exec-path '("path/here"))) you your non-cygwin emacs configuration
10:05	Chousuke	volton: yeah, that makes no sense.
10:05	Chousuke	volton: it's too magical
10:05	raek	where "path/here" is the path to the directory that contains lein.bat
10:06	Chousuke	volton: symbol should just throw an exception in a case like that
10:06	Chousuke	there are other invalid symbols too, like "..." or ",,,"
10:06	volton	Chousuke: You are probably right
10:07	raek	_KY_: I also think you can use M-x customize-variable <RET> clojure-swank-command
10:07	raek	and set the command to "C:\path\here\lein.bat jack-in %s"
10:07	volton	Chousuke: Where can I find the corresponding issue?
10:08	_KY_	The current command is:
10:08	_KY_	echo "lein jack-in %s" \| $SHELL -l
10:09	raek	yup. that won't work on windows...
10:09	_KY_	So I just replace the whole line with yours?
10:09	raek	if I understand the elisp code correctly, clojure-mode resorts to that approach if it can't find leiningen on the path
10:09	raek	yeah
10:10	_KY_	With or without quotes?
10:10	raek	without
10:10	raek	if you enter it through the customization interface
10:11	_KY_	But my lein needs cygwin to invoke
10:11	_KY_	So it's not lein.bat
10:11	raek	I see
10:11	raek	then it's probably wiser to start emacs from cygwin
10:12	raek	but with an option that tells it where to find you .emacs files
10:12	raek	did you install emacs through cygwin too?
10:13	_KY_	No emacs was installed in windows I think
10:13	groovemonkey	hi guys; having a problem with altering a ref (hashmap):
10:13	groovemonkey	clojure.core=> @test
10:13	groovemonkey	{}
10:13	groovemonkey	clojure.core=> (dosync (alter test (assoc-in @test [:new :stuff] ["in here" :now])))
10:13	raek	(man, why is always so messy to set up dev tools on windows?)
10:13	groovemonkey	nil
10:13	groovemonkey	clojure.core=> @test
10:13	groovemonkey	nil
10:13	volton	_KY_: Do you need swank? I find clojure-mode to be sufficient...
10:14	_KY_	Not sure yet...
10:14	groovemonkey	is assoc-in returning nil for some reason and that's being bound to @test?
10:15	raek	volton: how do you reload function definitions and try them after you have changed them?
10:15	raek	groovemonkey: alter does not take a new value, it takes a function from the old value to the new value
10:16	raek	(dosync (alter test assoc-in [:new :stuff] ["in here" :now]))
10:16	raek	or (dosync (alter test (fn [old] (assoc-in old [:new :stuff] ["in here" :now]))))
10:17	volton	raek: I don't. I'm a noob :-P
10:17	_KY_	Maybe I should re-install lein on windows?
10:17	groovemonkey	raek: ahhh, thanks. I tried a horrible mix of those two suggestions.
10:17	groovemonkey	namely
10:17	groovemonkey	(dosync (alter test assoc-in @test [:new :stuff] ["in here" :now]))
10:17	groovemonkey	thanks!!
10:17	raek	there is also 'ref-set' which behaves as your "alter" in the first example
10:18	raek	but using alter is more ideomatic here
10:18	groovemonkey	ah, thank you for that tip.
10:18	clojurebot	Huh?
10:22	raek	_KY_: probably a good idea. mixing stuff from cygwin-land and windows-land has mostly resulted in pain for me personally
10:27	_KY_	Now "lein swank" in windows says "this is not a task"
10:29	raek	_KY_: the location of the .lein directory is probably different
10:30	raek	_KY_: did you end up using profiles.clj or "lein plugin install ..."?
10:30	volton	,(clojure.string/split "abc" #"")
10:30	_KY_	Oh I didn't do that yet
10:31	clojurebot	["" "a" "b" "c"]
10:31	volton	why does it return the "" at the front?
10:32	raek	probably comes from java
10:32	raek	you can also do ##(seq "abc")
10:32	lazybot	⇒ (\a \b \c)
10:32	_KY_	Lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.4 right?
10:32	raek	lein-swank, I think
10:32	raek	depending on which version you use
10:33	volton	raek: that is a lot better, thanks
10:33	raek	this has also changed recently :-)
10:33	raek	or ##(map str "abc") ; if you want the letters as strings
10:33	lazybot	⇒ ("a" "b" "c")
10:35	_KY_	Oh I did swank-clojure 1.4.2
10:35	_KY_	And now emacs clojure-jack-in works
10:36	_KY_	Should I re-do lein plugin install lein-swank 1.4.4?
10:36	_KY_	Or just leave it at that?
10:36	raek	you could probably just leave it like that
10:37	raek	if you decide to upgrade, remember to remove the older version
10:37	_KY_	Ok looks good now... =)
10:37	raek	_KY_: happy hacking!
10:37	_KY_	So it lets me evaluate clojure expressions from the buffer?
10:38	raek	yes
10:38	raek	a lot of useful commands are listed in the swank-clojure docs
10:38	_KY_	Ok=)
10:39	raek	if you did "lein new tinkering", a good place to start playing around is the src/tinkering/core.clj file
10:40	raek	if you have it open, press C-c C-k to load the contents of it
10:40	_KY_	I'm already writing my project now... =)
10:40	raek	and then C-c M-p to cause the repl to be in the tinkering.core namespace
10:41	raek	when you change a def, just press C-M-x while having the point in it to reevaluate it
10:41	volton	raek: you are right, clojure.string/split behaves identical to Java :-/
10:58	_KY_	I can't compile file in emacs swank... any idea?
10:58	_KY_	"Compilation failed - no warnings"
10:59	solussd	ibdknox: any chance of light table becoming a kickstarter project? I know several people in the clojure community would be more than willing to donate to compensate you for your time (and I personally tihnk that that is important). The kickback would be an open source implementation. I don't know if I can program another day in a world without something like light table being my IDE. :D
11:02	zamaterian	solussd, ibdknox wrote earlier that he has submitted a kickstart project
11:02	solussd	zamaterian: ha. I must have missed that!
11:10	mdeboard	Any cascalog users here?
11:14	raek	_KY_: are there any messages in the SLIME Compilation buffer?
11:14	_KY_	Compile-load file works
11:15	_KY_	But "compile file" fails... guess it doesn't matter
11:44	autodidakto	once I add a plugin to lein2's profiles.clj, what command do I run to install (missing) plugins?
11:49	krsanky	ive been doing the 4clojure questions, its cool seeing how other people answer the same problems
11:49	mdeboard	ya
11:50	krsanky	my 1st ones were super complicated, and id see others with like 2 word answers
11:51	krsanky	(fn enth [s n] (loop [cnt n sq s] (if (zero? cnt) (first sq) (recur (dec cnt) (rest sq)))))
11:51	krsanky	thats 21 (rewrite nth without nth)
11:54	ddlp	dear #clojure ... i'm looking at compiler plugins (gcc, ghc, scala) and wondering if is there any plan or work for a clojure compiler plugin API?
12:03	autodidakto	technomancy: Once I add a plugin to profiles.clj, how do I tell lein2 "ok, download it"
12:05	mfex	autodidakto, often with lein2 the old explicit "lein deps" step happens whenever it is required. Does the plugin not just work already?
12:06	autodidakto	it's lein-newnew + a template I'm trying to use
12:07	autodidakto	So, it, like, goes, without checking... the "new" commands doesn't download lein newnew, and it takes my template name to mean project/src/template-name
12:10	mfex	I haven't used newnew myself, but "lein2 new your-template-name project-name" fails?
12:10	autodidakto	mfex: for example, with lein1 -> lein plugin install lein-newnew 0.2.6 will download the jar and over-ride lein new right away, but with lein2, adding lein-newnew to profiles doesnt
12:11	xeqi	autodidakto: does `lein deps` get it?
12:11	xeqi	*download
12:11	mdeboard	ddlp: What sort of things would you like plugins for?
12:12	autodidakto	it does fail, but it lein new is still expecting "Expected ([project-name] [project-name project-dir])"
12:12	autodidakto	xeqi: "Couldn't find project.clj, which is needed for deps"
12:12	mdeboard	ddlp: I think (completley ignorant of the topic so this is a guess) if you use leiningen to build your projects, leiningen supports plugins... presumably plugins to effect compile-time behavior
12:13	autodidakto	I'll nuke lein1/2 and reinstall to make sure I dont have some weird conflict...
12:22	krsanky	/statusbar window add usercount
12:22	krsanky	woops
12:22	krsanky	<-- irc noob
12:24	autodidakto	krsanky: it happens to the best of us
12:25	autodidakto	/msg Obama I'm tellin you bro, fo' mo' years. It's in the bag
12:26	krsanky	i pasted my nick password in yesterday :)
12:27	yoklov	i'm always worried i'll do /join #someotherchannel
12:27	yoklov	with a space before it
12:29	yoklov	hrm, I feel like clojurescript should have some sort of way of making async a bit less awkward.
12:29	yoklov	callbacks feel un-idiomatic, but the browser demands it.
12:30	ddlp	mdeboard: to add or modify new features to the compiler without having to modify the compiler itself
12:32	yoklov	hm maybe i should use ibdknox's state machine library
12:37	ddlp	mdeboard: i don't know if lein modifies the compiler itself.
12:38	ddlp	mdeboard: but, for example, ibdknox mentions using "a modified version of the Clojure compiler" for Light Table.
12:38	mdeboard	ddlp: Ah I see, yeah I don't know. I'm sure he would have an answer for you.
12:39	yoklov	the clojurescript compiler's weird to include though. definitely not as seamless integration as, clojure, for example
12:40	yoklov	plugins to extend compile behavior would be interesting.
12:50	ddlp	yoklov: yes, a unified api to extend/modify compiler behavior when needed
12:50	yoklov	eh
12:51	yoklov	actually
12:51	yoklov	you know
12:51	yoklov	that sounds like it would be un-namespaceable
12:51	yoklov	and it would make code incompatible with other code
12:52	yoklov	you can probably do a large portion of that already with macros too.
12:53	yoklov	i know in racket, some macros end up being basically compiler extensions/directives, and i don't see why the same thing couldn't be true of clojure, unless you _really_ wanted to change things
12:57	autodidakto	Ok, so where does lein2 save the plugins to?
13:00	raek	autodidakto: everything is kept in the .m2 directory
13:00	autodidakto	raek: ahh ok, so no more plugins/ directory with lein2?
13:00	raek	yeah
13:00	raek	at least this is the case for :dependencies and lib/
13:01	autodidakto	and :plugins in .lein/profiles.clj ?
13:02	raek	it didn't add any plugins there for me
13:02	autodidakto	same here. Ok, that helps, thanks
13:02	raek	lein-swank worked (from :plugins) with an empty .lein/plugins
13:04	autodidakto	yeah same here. Making the transition to lein2, and it was really confusing me...
13:07	ibdknox	ddlp: I modified and rebuilt the compiler
13:07	ibdknox	to preserve some metadata
13:08	ibdknox	so instead of using clojure 1.3.0 I'm using ibdknox/clojure
13:23	autodidakto	xeqi, mfex: I think my hangup was not understanding the lein2 installs to .m2, and I already had the plugins inside .m2 because of installing them previously with lein1
13:24	autodidakto	"i hear idbknox is going to implement REAL reader macros"
13:24	ddlp	heh
13:25	gfredericks	what is unreal about clojure's reader macros?
13:26	autodidakto	their nonexistance
13:26	autodidakto	1.4 will have an alternative
13:26	gfredericks	so what is #() and #' and etc?
13:26	autodidakto	but 1.4 CLOJURE-TO-THE-KNOX, will have REAL reader macros!
13:26	autodidakto	you can't make your own
13:27	gfredericks	so clojure has reader macros but because it's not extensible we say that clojure does not have reader macros?
13:27	autodidakto	or maybe "their existance" is unreal... tricksy...
13:27	gfredericks	I'm just trying to figure out terminology
13:27	autodidakto	gfredericks: correct
13:27	autodidakto	Rich hickey does, we don't... clojure do.does..nt... yeah I think we say "it doesn't"
13:28	autodidakto	at least, people will say "CL has reader macros, but clojure doesn't"
13:28	autodidakto	$seen rhickey
13:28	lazybot	rhickey was last seen joining on clojure 6 days and 5 hours ago.
13:29	autodidakto	I'm gunning for you, rhickey!
13:30	_KY_	I'm using enclojure and got "Error occurred during initialization of VM" not enough heap space
13:31	ddlp	ibdknox: yes. a compiler plugin api would be useful only for features that are not suitable for inclusion in the main compiler.
13:31	ddlp	bbl
13:35	TimMc	gfredericks: People talk about #-stuff being reader macros, but it's really just part of the parser.
13:36	gfredericks	TimMc: I definitely don't know the diff between "reader" and "parser"
13:36	gfredericks	unless the reader eats strings and the parser eats tokens
13:36	TimMc	eh
13:37	TimMc	The "reader" is an API-level construct.
13:37	TimMc	lexers and parsers are implementation-level
13:38	Chousuke	the reader is what takes a string and gives you a data structure
13:38	Chousuke	it's usually implemented with a parser :P
13:38	Chousuke	well, string or input stream
13:38	gfredericks	TimMc: I still don't understand your earlier statement then
13:38	gfredericks	of course something at the API level is "really" just part of a lower level
13:40	TimMc	Hmm. I guess I kind of object to the term "reader macro" in general.
13:40	TimMc	They should really be called parser plugins, or lexer plugins.
13:41	gfredericks	well. okay.
13:44	gfredericks	so what does 1.4 have in this area then?
13:44	TimMc	gfredericks: I actually don't know much about how Clojure's reader works.
13:46	autodidakto	gfredericks: extensible reader -> http://www.infoq.com/interviews/hickey-clojure-reader
13:46	hsteak	hello
13:46	autodidakto	hsteak: yo
13:51	gfredericks	so is #=() still around?
13:51	dnolen	bbloom: hey I applied your patch to master but there's a small issue that didn't crop up from just running the tests.
13:53	ibdknox	dnolen: are there any thoughts on having compiler modes? E.g. can there be a flag that adds position information on all forms? not just lists.
13:54	ibdknox	dnolen: I understand the size issue, so it probably shouldn't be on normally, but for tools..
13:55	dnolen	ibdknox: something like that sounds reasonble to me - still need to happen in the CLJ reader first.
13:56	ibdknox	yeah, I'm more interested in the reader anyways
13:57	ibdknox	if the analyzer was just better about keeping meta, that would be all that needed to happen
13:57	dnolen	ibdknox: I'm not convinced there's a size issue - we work on code one top level form at a time.
13:58	ibdknox	dnolen: having all those meta entries has to take up space at runtime though, right?
13:59	dnolen	ibdknox: those meta entries don't exist at runtime.
13:59	ibdknox	oh?
13:59	ibdknox	oh right
13:59	ibdknox	duh
13:59	ibdknox	dnolen: I retract my size statement then
13:59	ibdknox	dnolen: can we just have position information on all forms? :D
14:00	ibdknox	haha
14:00	dnolen	ibdknox: yes, want.
14:00	ibdknox	dnolen: I started messing around with esprima, their parse trees are so much more complicated ;)
14:00	ibdknox	code rewriting is going to be interesting
14:01	dnolen	ibdknox: heh yeah JS ain't simple.
14:02	ibdknox	seems doable, just definitely not a 6 day prototype lol
14:02	_KY_	Im using Enclojure and maven cannot start the JVM due to insufficient heap space... what should I do?
14:05	yoklov	#"regex" still doesn't work in cljs, right?
14:06	dnolen	bbloom: basically the REPL is broken at the moment.
14:06	rodnaph	anyone got tips for dealing with cljs compile error? there is literally no useful info, and reverting everything I can remember doing in the last few minutes hasn't helped... HELP! :)
14:07	dnolen	rodnaph: what's the error?
14:07	ibdknox	rodnaph: a compile error or a runtime error?
14:07	rodnaph	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Symbol
14:08	rodnaph	i'm using lein cljsbuild and getting that during compile (along with a stacktrace from clojure.* and cljs.*
14:08	ibdknox	rodnaph: you probably have an incorrect number of args in a defn
14:08	yoklov	check your function arguments to make sure they're a vector, also try the (:use [foo :only [bar baz]]) forms to make sure [bar baz] is a vector
14:09	yoklov	usually the later one complains about a seq
14:09	rodnaph	ok thanks yoklov i'll check that!
14:10	rodnaph	is there any way of getting some more useful info from the compiler though? (file/line/etc...) if not maybe a page of common problems would be helpful, i'll start putting one together
14:10	yoklov	i don't know of any :/
14:12	yoklov	trying stuff out in a repl first helps catch errors
14:12	rodnaph	GAH! ok i had (:use jayq.core :only [$])
14:12	rodnaph	thanks yoklov
14:13	yoklov	np, you get somewhat used to the errors it throws at you, though better messages would be amazing
14:13	yoklov	the weirdest thing is the google closure compiler running out of memory all the time.
14:14	ibdknox	I've never had that happen
14:14	yoklov	no?
14:14	clojurebot	no is tufflax: there was a question somewhere in there, the answer
14:14	yoklov	hrm.
14:14	rodnaph	yah defo - the eternal problem of someone not passing up the message, always bugs me. "unknown error" - SOMEONE BLOODY KNOWS!! hehe
14:14	yoklov	after usng lein cljsbuild auto for a while, i'll eventually get "java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space" followed by a stack trace deep in the closure compiler
14:15	yoklov	"TokenStream.java:1256 com.google.javascript.jscomp.mozilla.rhino.TokenStream.getStringFromBuffer" or stuff like that. not the same place always either.
14:16	rodnaph	ibdknox: any idea on when we'll be able to try lighttable out? :)
14:16	ibdknox	it'll be a bit
14:16	ibdknox	writing an IDE from scratch is a lot of work
14:16	ibdknox	2000 people work on Visual Studio ;)
14:16	rodnaph	is that like when my wife says she'll clean up in a bit? or when by boss says i'll get a payrise in a bit? :D
14:17	dnolen	bbloom: no worries, I went ahead and fixed the REPL in master
14:17	rodnaph	yah i bet! well we'll be waiting.
14:17	ibdknox	rodnaph: I'm hoping for a solid beta by end of year
14:17	ibdknox	but that's me naively estimating right now
14:17	ibdknox	it could be way faster, could be a little longer
14:18	rodnaph	i understand, well good luck anyway, prototype looks fascinating.
14:18	dsantiago	ibdknox: Are you using a web view as the display component?
14:19	ibdknox	dsantiago: yep, it seems dumb to me not to at this point
14:19	ibdknox	it's also the fastest path to something decent
14:19	dsantiago	I agree.
14:19	dnolen	CLJS users - I'm thinking about pushing the static fn optimization into the :advanced opimization phase only. you can of course start up a custom REPL with the static fn optimizations on.
14:19	dnolen	opinions?
14:20	dsantiago	But I was afraid that it might not be flexible enough to enable a really advanced text editor. But I don't know about that stuff.
14:20	ibdknox	dnolen: is it slow? or is it just that it munges code too much?
14:20	yoklov	dnolen: static fn optimization?
14:20	dnolen	ibdknox: no my main concern is that it stinks for redefinition.
14:21	dnolen	yoklov: direct calling fns, and well as direct dispatching to a particular arity.
14:21	ibdknox	dsantiago: I think it'll work out, it'll take some time, but eh - that's how it goes
14:21	ibdknox	dnolen: good point. That sounds reasonable
14:22	yoklov	dnolen: right, okay. hm. yeah, sounds fairly reasonable
14:30	ibdknox	dnolen: is there some trick to getting cljs working with node? I keep getting: Cannot set property 'Unicode' of undefined
14:30	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
14:30	dnolen	k fn optimizations now only applied under advanced optimizations in CLJ master. Redef in peace.
14:31	dnolen	CLJS master I mean of course.
14:31	dnolen	ibdknox: yeah you'll see that if you use :simple or :whitespace optimizations I think.
14:32	dnolen	ibdknox: one second while I remind myself of the issue.
14:35	dnolen	ibdknox: yes I think the issue is "goog.global = this;" under Node.js
14:35	ibdknox	I see
14:35	ibdknox	so I need to use advanced then?
14:38	dnolen	ibdknox: looking seems like you should be able to set goog.global to something else.
14:57	dnolen	ibdknox: I think you just have to avoid using only :whitespace optimizations, :simple works.
14:58	dnolen	ibdknox: the issue is that goog.provide is somewhat meaningless under node
15:08	hcumberdale	Hi ;)
15:08	hcumberdale	I'm getting error messages like "Could not find artifact org.clojure:clojure:pom:1.+ in central (http://repo1.maven.org/maven2)" with lein2
15:22	bbloom	dnolen: d'oh! Sorry about that
15:24	bbloom	dnolen: thanks for fixing it. Although the presence of emit-str makes me fear that someone may use it in the compiler itself ;-) I guess we'll just need to get source maps implemented quickly, so that the position tracking logic doesn't have a chance to break :-)
15:25	bbloom	dnolen: Maybe it should throw an exception if position is not nil?
15:33	hcumberdale	I do not understand the whole (and (or thing ... https://github.com/kremers/mongodb-session/blob/master/src/hozumi/mongodb_session.clj
15:34	dnolen	bbloom: emit-str not used in the compiler itself, I think CLJS compiler hackers can figure it out.
15:34	bbloom	dnolen: fair enough :-)
15:35	hcumberdale	let [entity (and key (congo/fetch-one << ?? why "and key" what does it mean
15:36	dnolen	bbloom: and since you're here, I'm curious about your workflow as you've described on the ML.
15:36	antares_	hcumberdale: that code seems to guard against nil key values that way. It's not idiomatic Clojure if you ask me.
15:36	bbloom	yeah, let's talk about it
15:36	dnolen	bbloom: so I take it you don't watch the files and run the REPL at the same time?
15:36	bbloom	nope
15:36	antares_	hcumberdale: if key is nil, and will not evaluate subsequent values
15:36	bbloom	i like to evaluate individual forms as i work
15:37	dnolen	bbloom: hmm yeah, that's what I do to avoid the specific situation you're talking about.
15:37	bbloom	because sometimes i have various functions in half finished states
15:37	antares_	hcumberdale: looks like we need to add support for that thing to Monger, huh
15:37	dnolen	bbloom: but in general I use the REPL a lot as well.
15:37	bbloom	so in my personal cljs fork, i have dynamic Vars ;-) and those vars implement IWatchable
15:37	bbloom	so in the little project i'm working on, redefining certain vars can cause parts of the dom to automatically re-render
15:38	bbloom	but only those rendered by the redefined function!
15:38	eggsby	Hey #clojure, what sort of questions can I ask about exceptions?
15:38	bbloom	in order for that to work right, i need to know which symbols go to Var objects and which go to plain old javascript variables
15:39	antares_	hcumberdale: monger now has a clojure.core.cache implementation which is similar implementation-wise to this session store. Take a look at monger.cache, maybe code there will be easier to follow ;)
15:39	eggsby	I'm trying to make an exception logging client and it expects a json dict of 'exception_class', 'backtrace', 'message', 'environment', 'data', and 'url', how could I ask those questions about a given exception?
15:39	dnolen	bbloom: it's still not clear to me why just watching an re-analyzing the files wouldn't work for you, especially if there was defonce support.
15:40	hcumberdale	antares_, thx
15:40	antares_	hcumberdale: so support for ring session stores will be very similar to support for clojure.core.cache
15:40	hcumberdale	antares_, I try to rewrite it
15:40	bbloom	dnolen: it's got to do with the fact that i don't always recall when i last ran the build process… it may have been HOURS ago :-P so what i do, as part of the build process, is save the analysis results to the "out" directory.
15:40	antares_	hcumberdale: if you file an issue about this for Monger, I will get to it some time next week
15:41	bbloom	dnolen: so basically when the browser refreshes, i have a file which matches the state of the browser
15:41	hcumberdale	yeah, I try to port the session store so it uses monger
15:41	dnolen	bbloom: oh so you actually try to debug multiple files?
15:41	yoklov	eggsby: clojure uses its host exceptions, so on the JVM you have java exceptions and in cljs you have JS exceptions
15:41	antares_	hcumberdale: very nice. Don't worry about code quality, I will be happy to give you advice or rewrite some bits if necessary. It took us all some time to learn.
15:41	bbloom	dnolen: oh yeah, it's a various file project with various namespaces
15:42	antares_	hcumberdale: by the way, I think this can go to monger.ring.sessions
15:42	dnolen	bbloom: so how would source mapping affect that? you could easily debug multiple files even if you have a single file in reality.
15:43	hcumberdale	yeah!
15:43	bbloom	dnolen: it doesn't really matter if it's one or more files. what matters is that when the repl connects to the browser, the repl has some compiler state and the browser assumes some other compiler state
15:43	hcumberdale	I'll try me best. The code quality of the existing adapter seems not to be the golden grail
15:43	bbloom	dnolen: either i can re-analyze what i think is the right code. or i can load the exact state that was assumed by the browser
15:44	bbloom	dnolen: again, consider the debug symbols analogy in the C/C++ world.
15:44	bbloom	dnolen: I can say "ok, i'm running a release build of commit 12345… so ill git co that version and then rebuild my symbols…. then i'll attach my debugger"
15:45	bbloom	dnolen: all i'm doing is copying my symbols to the output directory and loading them on attach
15:45	bbloom	dnolen: make sense?
15:46	unlink_	When I run lein ring server, it deletes my java-source-file-compiled classes. lein ring war works.
15:46	bbloom	dnolen: so i have a :repl key in my project.clj and that repl file just has: (reset! compiler/namespaces (read-string (slurp "out/namespaces.clj")))
15:46	bbloom	dnolen: which is produced by my build code with (spit "out/namespaces.clj" (prn-str @compiler/namespaces))
15:46	bbloom	dnolen: works a treat :-)
15:48	dnolen	bbloom: yes, I got that from your ML post - that's pretty interesting. perhaps a feature request for lein-cljsbuild.
15:49	dnolen	bbloom: I take it you building a largish project in CLJS
15:49	bbloom	dolen: i'm not using cljsbuild, but only b/c i haven't even looked at it yet
15:50	dnolen	bbloom: there's lots of stuff better handled by an external tool. I suspected something like lein-cljsbuild could fill holes in what the CLJS compiler provides out of the box. And I think it's turned out to be very true.
15:50	bbloom	dnolen: and i'd like to build a largest project in cljs… but right now, i'm mostly just tinkering with it. my startup runs on ruby, coffeescript, and a hodgepodge of make/bash/sed/awk/whatever, but i'm trying to find an excuse to use some clojure :-)
15:52	bbloom	dnolen: ok, i'll study cljsbuild a bit
15:52	bbloom	dnolen: is emezeske the current maintainer?
15:52	dnolen	bbloom: yes
15:54	bbloom	dnolen: does he hang out here at all?
15:55	bbloom	dnolen: anyway, gotta run. thanks for merging my patch! cheers
15:56	dnolen	bbloom: he does! np, thx much. later.
15:58	unlink_	with `lein ring server`, I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException <my java class>
16:00	hcumberdale	What means _ here? [_ key data]
16:00	hcumberdale	(parameter list)
16:00	unlink_	hcumberdale: bind the first argument and ignore the value
16:01	Chousuke	hcumberdale: it's just an idiomatic way to indicate an unused parameter
16:01	hcumberdale	ahh thx
16:01	bpr	i'm trying to write a function that takes a function f and returns the arglists of f. My first attempt https://refheap.com/paste/2136 doesn't compile, because f isn't a var. I know this is possible, because the slime repl provides agrname hints. Does anyone have any suggestions? Maybe a pointer to the relevant sections of slime/swank?
16:02	gfredericks	bpr: the metadata for that is stored on the var, not the function
16:02	bpr	yes
16:02	gfredericks	which means if all you have is the function, you can't get much
16:02	gfredericks	so there's a couple ways to go from there depending on what you can control
16:03	bpr	how does slime do it then?
16:03	gfredericks	I assume slime obtains the var one way or another
16:03	gfredericks	if you know the qualified symbol that points to the var you can get it
16:03	gfredericks	but if you just have a function with no name or anything...
16:04	bpr	ok. I'm doing this from within a macro, so I should have the qualified symbol
16:04	gfredericks	,(resolve 'clojure.core/for)
16:04	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/for
16:05	bpr	thanks
16:05	gfredericks	well that does something
16:05	gfredericks	I'm not 100% sure that's` what you want but it might well be
16:06	bpr	https://refheap.com/paste/2136 <-- seems to be good enough for my uses
16:06	bpr	thanks, gfredericks
16:06	gfredericks	bpr: yep
16:08	mfex	bpr, this is how (doc ...) does it: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/553f4879cad019dd9dc1727165d8a41c216bd086/src/clj/clojure/repl.clj#L120
16:09	bpr	mfex: nice. thank you
16:10	gfredericks	ooh it _does_ involve resolve :)
16:10	bpr	:-)
16:13	hcumberdale	mhhh seems the old mongodb session stuff does rely on another ring version
16:14	hcumberdale	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/session/store.clj << in the tests is something like (write-session store nil {:foo "bar"})
16:15	krsanky	ibdknox still here ?
16:32	hcumberdale	antares_, what can lead to java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Keyword cannot be cast to java.lang.String ?
16:32	antares_	hcumberdale: you are passing a keyword somewhere when a string is expected
16:32	hcumberdale	the line is: (mng/insert collection-name (merge data { :_id newkey :_date (Date.) }))
16:33	antares_	possibly collection-name is a keyword
16:33	antares_	monger always uses strings
16:33	hcumberdale	ahhh, sec i'll have a look
16:33	antares_	if you get a keyword somehow, use (name kwd) to turn it into a string
16:33	antares_	not (str kwd)
16:34	hcumberdale	okay, thx antares_...!
16:38	hcumberdale	antares_ you were right!
16:39	ibdknox	krsanky: pong
16:52	hcumberdale	https://github.com/kremers/monger-session
16:52	mdeboard	Can you specify a single test to run with lein test?
16:55	hcumberdale	antares_, works with the tests defined for the old congomongo-session things
16:56	antares_	hcumberdale: woohoo! great job!
16:58	hcumberdale	I get addicted
17:00	hcumberdale	oO java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: can't serialize class clojure.lang.Keyword
17:00	hcumberdale	at org.bson.BasicBSONEncoder._putObjectField(BasicBSONEncoder.java:234) ~[mongo-java-driver-2.7.3.jar:na]
17:01	espeed	How do you use defmulti to create a function that can have zero, one, or two arguments?
17:01	espeed	(I'm wrapping a Java method)
17:02	mdeboard	espeed: This is about the only topic that I think the CLojure docs do a good job of explaining
17:02	mdeboard	espeed: http://clojure.org/multimethods
17:04	hcumberdale	antares_ I thought keywords can be serialized with monger?
17:06	antares_	hcumberdale: they can
17:06	antares_	in document values
17:06	antares_	but you cannot use them as collection names
17:06	hcumberdale	okay, I'll try to trace it down
17:12	groovemonkey	I'm having a problem where (read-line) works fine at the REPL but when I do 'lein run', the terminal doesn't seem to be registering any input (I don't see any letters as I type, and have to ctrl-c out of the process).
17:12	hcumberdale	antares_ what is going to be written:
17:12	hcumberdale	{:_flash {:login {:form [Username and password do not match!], :form-data {:roles #{:admin}}}}, :_id 6d591e4f-0967-4f30-b2c8-002a489f36e5, :_date #<Date Sun Apr 15 22:55:30 CEST 2012>, :_sandbar_session {:auth-redirect-uri /admin}}
17:12	hcumberdale	the data has to be escaped, right?
17:12	antares_	hcumberdale: from what I see in this example, no
17:13	groovemonkey	is stdin mapped differently in a REPL session than when I run from lein?
17:13	antares_	as long as it is useful as is
17:13	ibdknox	groovemonkey: lein trampoline run
17:13	ibdknox	groovemonkey: you need lein's JVM to get out of the way
17:13	dabd	I'm trying to create a standalone jar. My -main function has [& args] signature and I want to pass 3 args: one string, one sequence of strings and another string. How can I pass the seq from the linux shell? java -jar myjar "str1" ["a" "b"] "str2" does not work
17:13	groovemonkey	d'oh, thanks!
17:14	hcumberdale	antares_ here the complete stacktrace: https://refheap.com/paste/2139
17:16	hcumberdale	antares_ and here the file. Error occurs on line 24 https://github.com/kremers/monger-session/blob/master/src/kremers/monger_session.clj
17:18	antares_	hcumberdale: hm…
17:18	antares_	hcumberdale: can you add a test for monger that stores a similar map and reproduces the issue?
17:18	antares_	hcumberdale: actually, I'll do it
17:19	antares_	hcumberdale: keep in mind that once we store a keyword, it will really be stored as a string
17:20	antares_	hcumberdale: so when loaded back, it will be a string. I think for all intents and purposes, that's fine
17:21	antares_	hcumberdale: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/commit/5c62e47de77717cf22ad1beca8ebe81e13734428
17:21	antares_	hcumberdale: I pushed a new snapshot, maybe this is something the most recent beta does not support, I don't really remember
17:22	espeed	mdeboard: thanks. maybe I'm overlooking something, but I don't see anything about defmulti or defmethod taking a variable number of arguments
17:24	mdeboard	well, that's what they're for. You define one method per signature, iirc anyway. I've never used them seriously. I'm sure someone else has some better info for you than me
17:31	hcumberdale	antares_, okay I'll write a test for you
17:32	antares_	hcumberdale: I already pushed one :)
17:40	hcumberdale	huh antares_ can't find it. Or do you mean the new snapshot?
17:40	antares_	hcumberdale: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/commit/5c62e47de77717cf22ad1beca8ebe81e13734428
17:46	hcumberdale	antares_ and it works against the test?
17:46	antares_	hcumberdale: it does
17:46	hcumberdale	antares_: see https://github.com/kremers/monger-session/blob/master/test/kremers/test_mongodb_session.clj
17:47	hcumberdale	(deftest mongoserializablekeywords
17:47	hcumberdale	this is exactly what is generated by sandbar
17:47	hcumberdale	I serialized it using (str (binding [print-dup true] (prn-str data)))
17:48	antares_	hcumberdale: that's what I am saying, try with SNAPSHOT
17:48	antares_	maybe it is something specific to master
17:48	antares_	I am not sure
17:48	hcumberdale	okay, I'll try
17:49	hcumberdale	ERROR in (mongoserializablekeywords) (BasicBSONEncoder.java:234)
17:49	hcumberdale	Uncaught exception, not in assertion.
17:50	hcumberdale	My test is still failing, also with the most up to date snapshot
18:01	Xorlev	clj-zoo-service-tracker -- interesting...
18:08	pastime	Any positive experience with incanter (Excel lib) http://clojars.org/incanter/incanter-excel
18:10	zenom	Anyone familiar with leiningen? I am trying to do lein uberjar and when I run the jar with java -jar <filename> I get NoClassDefFoundError
18:13	gfredericks	zenom: does your class appear in `jar tf <filename>`?
18:13	zenom	checking
18:14	zenom	https://gist.github.com/2395056
18:15	zenom	its smuggler/core.clj
18:15	zenom	plus after that is a bunch of more clojure stuff and clojure-contrib
18:15	gfredericks	zenom: did you set up (:gen-class) for your main ns?
18:15	zenom	https://github.com/zenom/clojure-knapsack
18:16	zenom	there is the project right there
18:16	zenom	I have (ns smuggler.core) in src/smuggler/core.clj
18:16	gfredericks	that is handy
18:16	gfredericks	change to (ns smuggler.core (:gen-class))
18:17	gfredericks	that tells the compiler to generate the class for which your -main function will be the main method
18:17	zenom	ah ok, let me do a clean and re-uberjar :)
18:17	S11001001	and for a smaller jar, add :clean-non-project-classes true to the project.clj
18:18	zenom	S11001001: will do
18:18	zenom	gfredericks: thanks that worked :)
18:18	gfredericks	zenom: happy smuggling
18:18	zenom	hehe
18:18	zenom	its an interesting challenege
18:18	zenom	never used clojure before this weekend
18:19	zenom	would love to figure out how to streamline some of the code as well
18:19	zenom	if you have hints :)
18:19	S11001001	com.keminglabs/c2 sounds like a client for the PPR
18:19	S11001001	zenom: get-random-number is a slow rand-int
18:19	zenom	So once I have the standalone jar I can just send that off to someone right? they don't nee anything else?
18:19	S11001001	zenom: don't put trailing ) on their own line, ever
18:19	zenom	S11001001: i just didn't want a 0 possible
18:20	S11001001	zenom: then add 1
18:20	hcumberdale	antares_ have you seen my test case?
18:20	gfredericks	zenom: yes the uberjar is self-contained
18:20	zenom	gfredericks: thanks
18:20	antares_	hcumberdale: no
18:20	zenom	S11001001: ok , will change up the get-random-number and such
18:20	gfredericks	zenom: avoid def-ing inside a function; you should be able to replace those with let
18:20	S11001001	sorry, this is going to be style-wise
18:21	S11001001	never use _ for your names, always use -
18:21	zenom	yeah i thought I changed all those, I guess not
18:21	zenom	even for vars?
18:21	zenom	or just methods?
18:21	zenom	(let [{doll_weight or (let [{doll-weight ?
18:21	gfredericks	clojure prefers - for everything, unless you have something externally you're coordinating with
18:21	zenom	gotcha
18:22	gfredericks	they're prettier :)
18:22	zenom	I am a ruby/python guy mostly
18:22	zenom	so used to _ :)
18:22	zenom	but will change those
18:22	gfredericks	yeah
18:22	gfredericks	my snooty opinion is that - is better and would be used in other languages except those languages have an incompatible syntax
18:23	gfredericks	e.g. in ruby foo-bar is equivalent to foo - bar which obviously means something different
18:23	zenom	right
18:23	S11001001	truth
18:24	zenom	(+ (rand-int maxsize) 1))
18:24	antares_	hcumberdale: just paste me a value
18:24	zenom	is that bettre than what I had?
18:24	gfredericks	zenom: you could use inc instead of +1, but otherwise yeah
18:25	S11001001	(dec maxsize) too
18:25	zenom	ok
18:25	gfredericks	S11001001: really?
18:25	zenom	is inc faster / better than + ?
18:25	S11001001	,(vec (take 20 (repeatedly #(inc (rand-int 10)))))
18:25	gfredericks	eh, just idiomatic I think
18:25	clojurebot	[7 10 6 2 2 ...]
18:25	S11001001	ugh
18:25	clojurebot	I don't understand.
18:25	S11001001	so there's a 10 in there
18:26	gfredericks	S11001001: I assumed maxsize was inclusive
18:26	gfredericks	so
18:26	gfredericks	I guess we both know what we're talking about then
18:26	S11001001	not in original get-random-number
18:26	S11001001	though I suppose it's up to zenom whether it's meant to be inclusive or exclusive, really
18:26	hcumberdale	antares_ see : https://github.com/kremers/monger-session/blob/master/test/kremers/test_mongodb_session.clj
18:26	zenom	basically when i pass 10, I want 1-10 (inclusive)
18:26	S11001001	then don't dec
18:27	S11001001	but also know your original func was inclusive-exclusive :)
18:27	dnolen	zenom: inc + will be much the same perf wise.
18:27	antares_	hcumberdale: it may be :roles #{:admin}. I am not sure why you needed to use Java methods to build maps, though
18:28	antares_	hcumberdale: I will take a look tomorrow
18:28	hcumberdale	antares_ it is what sandbar creates
18:30	S11001001	zenom: you are from ruby, you're familiar with collect, select, and such?
18:31	zenom	S11001001: collect yes
18:31	zenom	never messed with select so much
18:31	S11001001	these are strongly preferred in clojure
18:31	S11001001	generate-shipment is (vec (map #(hash-map :name (str "doll-" %) ...) (range 1 (inc total-dolls))))
18:32	antares_	hcumberdale: I can reproduce it, it is an issue with sets of keywords. I'd recommend that you convert them to strings anyway
18:32	zenom	will check that out in a min; trying to clean up my _'s :)
18:32	antares_	hcumberdale: although I will try to find a solution
18:35	hcumberdale	antares_ with (binding [print-dup true] (prn-str .. ? or what is the best way to do this?
18:36	antares_	hcumberdale: I have a fix
18:36	antares_	hcumberdale: (map str set-of-keywords)
18:36	antares_	sorry
18:36	antares_	map by clojure.core/name
18:37	hcumberdale	(map name set-of-keywords) ?
18:37	S11001001	,(name 42)
18:37	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Named>
18:37	S11001001	,(name "42")
18:37	clojurebot	"42"
18:38	S11001001	following Brucio's REEPL method of understanding lisp, name is clearly a function that checks whether its arg is a string, returning it if so, throwing an exception otherwise
18:40	antares_	hcumberdale: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/commit/6a2698dce2684355fbc2c43b7e580a99c0d2033d
18:40	antares_	hcumberdale: yes. But I've pushed a new snapshot that should resolve your issue anyway. Good catch.
18:42	hcumberdale	okay, pushed new snapshot?
18:43	Lajla	hcumberdale, you taste like poo.
18:43	Lajla	Boy, you must get that a lot.
18:46	hcumberdale	Lajla?
18:47	dnolen	hcumberdale: Lajla is a troll, just ignore him.
18:48	hcumberdale	ahhhh
18:49	laurus	Why can't I use the doc function in the clojure-jack-in repl?
18:50	gfredericks	laurus: (use 'clojure.repl)
18:51	laurus	gfredericks, thanks. So I have to run that every time?
18:51	autodidakto	gfredericks: lein-swank doesn't automatically require it? isn't there a line you can add somewhere to make it do that?
18:51	autodidakto	I coulda sworn there was...
18:51	gfredericks	laurus: I think there's a way that autodidakto is alluding to, but I don't know the details
18:51	gfredericks	well more than alluding
18:52	gfredericks	he is explicitly talking about it
18:52	autodidakto	Turn on the technomany signal! And go through the docs just in cas!
18:52	laurus	Well this will do for now, thanks! Is there anything else I should include?
18:52	laurus	clojure.somethingelse I mean
18:52	gfredericks	technomancy: would probably just say to use the emaxy-swank-whatsit functions instead
18:52	gfredericks	C-x C-d M-x M-u C-d or something
18:52	autodidakto	laurus: for doc, no
18:52	laurus	autodidakto, I mean, for other useful things.
18:53	autodidakto	gfredericks: lol, i think in this case it goes in your init.clj/project.clj or something
18:53	laurus	autodidakto, l
18:53	autodidakto	laurus: you'll find them in time. pprint is common
18:53	laurus	clojure.pprint?
18:53	autodidakto	think so
18:53	gfredericks	yeah
18:53	laurus	Thanks.
18:54	antares_	hcumberdale: does the most recent snapshot work for you?
18:55	autodidakto	The technomancy bat signal -> triggering all his keywords at once -> "technomany, emacs, vim, heroku, xmonads, leingingen, debian" ... hmm what else?
18:55	ibdknox	to answer some of the questions on Light Table: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/15/light-tables-numbers/
18:55	autodidakto	bah, misspelled his name anyways
18:55	autodidakto	leiningingiengienge
18:55	gfredericks	"technomany" is his plural name
18:55	autodidakto	Must be slavic
18:56	autodidakto	Or his undead computer army
18:56	zenom	Ok, any ideas how to clean up the fill-handbag? :)
18:56	zenom	https://github.com/zenom/clojure-knapsack/blob/master/src/smuggler/core.clj
18:56	zenom	i cleaned up the rest, and greatly appreciate your help guys
18:57	gfredericks	(= 0) is (zero?)
18:58	zenom	ok let me look that up, im assuming thats just a helper for = 0
18:58	zenom	but increases readability
18:58	gfredericks	yeah that's all
18:59	gfredericks	there's a lot of stuff like that when learning clojure
18:59	gfredericks	not too important I guess
19:03	gfredericks	zenom: it's much better than I'd expect for someone starting out
19:03	Lajla	hcumberdale, it's not from salad fingers?
19:03	Lajla	THe cartoon?
19:03	Lajla	There's a chatracter called humbert cumberdale in iot
19:03	zenom	cool, still want to figure out how to clean up fill-handbag, so going to try and look around more
19:03	zenom	seems bulky to me. like it needs a refactor hehe
19:04	hcumberdale	Lajla, cartoon spoon
19:05	hcumberdale	yes
19:05	hcumberdale	It is from salad fingers
19:07	Lajla	hcumberdale, ah yes
19:08	Lajla	Well, Salad Finger says in it 'Ohhh, Huber Cumberdale, you taste like poo' when he tastes him
19:08	Lajla	which, dnolen is by the way why the word 'troll' is completely overrated and nowadays just sprayed around by every person who doesn't understand what some-one means.
19:11	hcumberdale	he really said this?
19:12	Lajla	Yes
19:12	Lajla	in the episode cumberdale was introduced in
19:13	Lajla	hcumberdale, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuCw5k-Lph0&feature=fvsr seconmd episode apparently
19:17	emacs_newb	so I recently tried using slime + clojure
19:17	emacs_newb	mind = blown
19:18	emacs_newb	it's amazing; I can't believe I haven't used this for the past 10 years
19:18	hcumberdale	yeah!
19:18	hcumberdale	it works now
19:19	emacs_newb	life without slime :: life with clojure = using a keyboard :: having computer read my mind
19:19	emacs_newb	s/clojure/slime
19:19	emacs_newb	there's something about having a live repl that just increases flow / focus
19:21	hcumberdale	Lajla, super awesome
19:24	hcumberdale	Is there a tool to get rid of all things I do not use from my .jar files?
19:25	hcumberdale	slamhound is nice for imports but it does not work in my project
19:28	S11001001	hcumberdale: no; clojure tree-shaking is a reduction of the halting problem
19:28	hcumberdale	antares_ it's working!
19:28	hcumberdale	I pushed the latest version to github and clojars
19:28	antares_	hcumberdale: cool. We will release next beta soon.
19:31	hcumberdale	I also changed it to work with strings ,... ;)
19:31	hcumberdale	super-super-awesome
19:31	hcumberdale	now it's time to go to bed
19:31	hcumberdale	01:26 ...
19:35	_KY_	Is 2Gb memory too small for Enclojure to compile projects?
19:48	zenom	does clojure 1.3 have a min java version or anything?
19:53	septomin_	ibdknox: looking forward to seeing the reward tiers
19:53	ibdknox	here's the preview: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/306316578/698018053?token=27376c21
19:54	ibdknox	if there are suggestions for the rewards, I'd be interested in hearing them :)
19:59	septomin_	hmm, maybe some kind of fancy printed manual
19:59	aperiodic	stickers!
19:59	aperiodic	everybody loves stickers
20:00	brehaut	ibdknox: have raynes and amalloy complained about the color scheme yet?
20:01	ibdknox	lol
20:01	brehaut	:)
20:01	ibdknox	people and their damn colors :p
20:01	ibdknox	aperiodic: oo, I did forget stickers...
20:03	ibdknox	septomin_: that's an interesting idea too
20:04	ibdknox	we used to give out shortcut cards for VS
20:17	ibdknox	rofl
20:17	ibdknox	I just got this email: https://refheap.com/paste/2140
20:21	_KY_	How can I change directory in the REPL?
20:22	brehaut	ibdknox: thats… wow
20:22	gfredericks	_KY_: jvm doesn't let you change working directory
20:22	gfredericks	$google github raynes fs
20:22	lazybot	[Raynes/fs · GitHub] https://github.com/Raynes/fs
20:23	Licenser	ibdknox seriousely?
20:23	gfredericks	but that ^ might interest you
20:23	Licenser	I mean the people thing .NET is a language o.O
20:23	Licenser	*think
20:23	brehaut	i presume he wants support for .NET IL
20:23	devn	200k?
20:24	ibdknox	brehaut: that still doesn't really make sense
20:24	ibdknox	lol
20:24	ibdknox	CLR IL would, I guess
20:25	ibdknox	though you couldn't do anything meaningful with just that
20:25	ibdknox	in any case I loved the "clojure is outdated"
20:25	brehaut	especially compared to python
20:26	ibdknox	half a decade = time to deprecate ;)
20:26	brehaut	in favour of a decade and a half old language
20:27	septomin_	ibdknox: maybe tutorial videos?
20:27	ibdknox	I thought of doing some totally different things
20:27	septomin_	or an in-person thing, you're in SF right?
20:27	ibdknox	yeah I was thinking of something like that
20:27	_KY_	How do I display the classpath in REPL?
20:27	ibdknox	one of the company ones would be have me come in and speak
20:28	ibdknox	or more startupy one, use me for a day to solve a problem
20:28	ibdknox	not sure if those are interesting though
20:29	TimMc	&(find {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} :b)
20:29	lazybot	⇒ [:b 2]
20:29	TimMc	Huh.
20:29	ibdknox	devn: were you questioning the 200k goal?
20:29	ibdknox	,(doc find)
20:29	clojurebot	"([map key]); Returns the map entry for key, or nil if key not present."
20:30	ibdknox	TimMc: ?
20:30	TimMc	Oh, it's just new to me, that's all.
20:30	gfredericks	,(-> {:a 1} (find :a) type)
20:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.MapEntry
20:30	ibdknox	I knew it existed, but have never cared to use it
20:30	ibdknox	lol
20:31	gfredericks	I can't imagine it has any high-level use
20:31	gfredericks	well _maaaay_be
20:31	TimMc	I discovered it when a defn collided with it.
20:31	ibdknox	me too
20:31	ibdknox	lol
20:31	TimMc	like an uncharted shoal
20:32	bpr	haha
20:32	gfredericks	I guess it might be the easiest way to filter a map by a set of keys?
20:32	gfredericks	as in (into {} (map #(find m %) my-keys))
20:33	ibdknox	gfredericks: select-keys
20:33	ibdknox	,(doc select-keys)
20:33	clojurebot	"([map keyseq]); Returns a map containing only those entries in map whose key is in keys"
20:33	gfredericks	crap and I even know all about select keys
20:33	gfredericks	find has foiled me again
20:33	ibdknox	lol
20:34	ibdknox	,(source select-keys)
20:34	clojurebot	Source not found
20:34	ibdknox	&(source select-keys)
20:34	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
20:34	ibdknox	aw
20:34	gfredericks	you bots are worthless
20:34	ibdknox	I was wondering if maybe it used find under the covers
20:34	gfredericks	$source select-keys
20:34	lazybot	select-keys is http://is.gd/SzyhyJ
20:34	gfredericks	I bet the link goes to the wrong line
20:35	ibdknox	yeah not even close
20:35	gfredericks	ibdknox: it does!
20:35	gfredericks	I mean it does use find
20:35	ibdknox	well there you go
20:35	gfredericks	but that contradicts my "high-level" qualification
20:35	gfredericks	so maybe we're back to it's worthless
20:36	gfredericks	well it does keep TimMc from using nice simple function names
20:37	ibdknox	so that's a win really :p
20:40	_KY_	Can someone tell me how to run a simple clj file? just using the REPL or java -cp ?
20:40	gfredericks	load-file from the repl should work
20:41	_KY_	Thanks...
21:00	Licenser	if I've a syntax error in a cljs project can I find out where the problem is?
21:03	TimMc	_KY_: There's also a one-off plugin for leiningen
21:04	krsanky	ibdknox: nice email u must have fans :P
21:04	_KY_	I'm trying to use enclojure... but the JVM won't start because of low memory... I have 2GB RAM, dunno why
21:05	yoklov	Licenser: not really
21:05	Licenser	:(
21:06	septomin_	is there a shortcut for (partial keep identity)?
21:06	yoklov	what's the problem?
21:06	krsanky	sry ibdnox im just reading your posts because im all up in noir
21:07	ibdknox	krsanky: lol, I get some weird emails sometimes ;)
21:07	yoklov	Licenser, i've found that running the repl helps a lot, as does compiling frequently. you also get good at telling what the errors mean
21:07	krsanky	that means your doing something right !
21:07	ibdknox	haha
21:07	ibdknox	does anyone know if python devs still outnumber ruby ones?
21:07	Licenser	yoklov yea I have a bad {} in there somewhere
21:07	krsanky	i LOVE python
21:08	ibdknox	krsanky: what's your favorite python dev tool?
21:08	krsanky	?
21:08	septomin_	that's probably going to depend a lot on how you define "python dev"
21:08	krsanky	i learned python just for django way back
21:09	ibdknox	krsanky: what editor/IDE did you or do you use for it, is what I was asking :)
21:09	krsanky	but ii use vim or emacs
21:09	ibdknox	septomin_: I know for the longest time academia pushed it well above ruby
21:09	Licenser	is there a way to run a remote reply on a node.js deployment?
21:10	septomin_	ibdknox: well, that and a lot of scripting
21:10	ibdknox	also true
21:10	septomin_	not many people consider themselves bash devs
21:10	krsanky	i do!
21:10	ibdknox	lol
21:10	krsanky	im a sysadmin 1st
21:10	ibdknox	I'm just thinking around what the next language might be
21:10	krsanky	clojure duh !
21:11	septomin_	the python IDEs were all quite bad the last i looked
21:11	ibdknox	krsanky: clojure + JS are first ;)
21:11	krsanky	python is just easier and doesnt have the startup time problem
21:11	yoklov	Licenser: hm, no clue, maybe someone else knows. There also might be something in the https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild docs.
21:11	krsanky	clojure makes me smile when i do get it
21:12	Licenser	yoklov thanks :) sadly not using lein
21:12	septomin_	i think the main reason is that it's very hard to do static type analysis well in python
21:13	krsanky	dont lisp people shun IDEs ?
21:13	ibdknox	lisp has had quite a few interesting dev envs over the years
21:14	krsanky	yeah i spoke fast i saw an old vid with steele and some others steele liked the IDEs
21:14	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
21:15	krsanky	ive only liked using the MS one way back
21:15	krsanky	eclipse kinda is not fun
21:15	yoklov	i really like that you can view changes in your code live in eclipse.
21:15	yoklov	live == when you save
21:15	krsanky	is that the counterclockwise one ?
21:15	ibdknox	yoklov: hm?
21:15	septomin_	ibdknox: so generally I think something like lighttable is most interesting where people are mainly using text editors
21:16	ivan	ibdknox: why would you want to suffer the pain of Python?
21:16	ivan	(and IntelliJ/PyCharm is nice)
21:16	ibdknox	septomin_: I believe that's mostly true
21:17	ibdknox	ivan: python's a decent enough language :) I was mostly thinking in terms of expanding reach
21:17	ibdknox	no one collects good stats on the number of devs for things it seems
21:17	yoklov	ibdknox: if you are running in debug mode, you can edit some method in a class, save the file, and then next time that method gets called, the change occurs. i've found it quite useful for UI/game development
21:17	septomin_	i'm also kind of skeptical of performance on something like a large C++ project
21:17	ivan	I have used Python for large applications and you run into pretty much all of the problems that Clojure has solved
21:17	ibdknox	I know there are around 6 million .NET folks out there
21:17	krsanky	ibdnox: i dont envy you trying to make a paradigm shifting editor/env
21:17	ivan	plus it is slow
21:18	ivan	and does not really compile to JS
21:18	ibdknox	yoklov: ah, that
21:18	krsanky	id for sure try it
21:18	ibdknox	krsanky: I have at least some idea of the mess I've gotten myself into ;)
21:19	krsanky	ibdknox: you can do it!
21:19	krsanky	:)
21:19	septomin_	why do you think it is that the state of the art is so bad, anyway
21:20	yoklov	ibdknox: yeah, it's quite limited but still more powerful than a lot of other ways of doing gui development… tragically. (hopefully you'll change that though :)
21:21	ibdknox	septomin_: are you asking me?
21:22	ivan	ibdknox: if you get into Python, #twisted is where the cool people hang out. #python is agony.
21:22	ibdknox	I wrote a fair amount of stuff in python a couple years ago
21:22	septomin_	i just mean in general
21:22	kovasb	for clojure the state of the art is emacs, which is showing its age..
21:23	kovasb	not great for webdev or graphics
21:23	septomin_	why we still have largely the same compilation model as in the 70s
21:23	ivan	Sublime Text has brought some really cool editor innovations that no one is copying
21:23	yoklov	kovas: why do you say its bad for graphics?
21:23	ivan	multiple cursors/selections, especially
21:23	ivan	Emacs can't even keep the cursor outside of the viewport
21:23	ibdknox	ivan: we had that in VS :)
21:23	ivan	ibdknox: really? did it ship?
21:23	ibdknox	septomin_: a number of reasons
21:23	ibdknox	yeah
21:24	ivan	whoa. how come it's not on reddit and stuff?
21:24	ibdknox	nobody likes VS :p
21:24	ibdknox	well correction, the people on HN and Reddit don't like VS
21:24	yoklov	kovasb: (whoops, had spelt your name wrong)why do you say emacs is bad for graphics
21:24	kovasb	yoklov: if you are calling outside packages to render your graphics, that is suboptimal in many ways
21:24	ivan	ibdknox: I see "multiple line". does it handle multiple cursors in the same line?
21:25	ibdknox	that might have ended up as an extension, but it definitely exists
21:25	ivan	okay
21:25	ibdknox	I think it was called multi-stream selection or something
21:25	kovasb	yoklov: the consequence is that the graphics is no longer integrated into the working environment, its in an outside box somewhere
21:25	yoklov	kovasb: hm, not quite sure what you mean, outside packages as in… not rendering in an emacs buffer
21:25	ibdknox	septomin_: I think one of the main reasons our tools are the way they are is because only devs care about them and in my experience design and dev are a very rare combination of skill sets
21:26	kovasb	yoklov: yes, the choice is either to use emacs directly for graphics (which no one does for clojure), or use a JVM-based graphics lib
21:26	yoklov	kovasb: ah, okay, i agree that that sucks, however i don't know how much better newer tools are for that. (aside from full-blown IDEs)
21:27	kovasb	yoklov: I used / worked for Mathematica for many years, its light years better
21:27	ibdknox	wooooow
21:27	ibdknox	what a troll
21:27	kovasb	yoklov: but there are other beefs with emacs besides that. Its just showing its age in many ways
21:28	gfredericks	I used bananas for eating for many years; they're light years better
21:28	kovasb	lol
21:29	ibdknox	http://groups.google.com/group/light-table/browse_thread/thread/f3109d5fdfea5f90
21:29	ibdknox	it is way too early for that shit
21:29	ibdknox	lol
21:29	kovasb	loool
21:30	kovasb	looks like the honeymoon is over :)
21:30	ibdknox	haha
21:30	yoklov	kovasb: i'll agree web development can be a bit awkward, especially if you don't have control over the file (e.g. someone used a <style> or <script> tag, as MuMaMo et al. are awkward)
21:31	kovasb	yoklov: yeah. I mean I like emacs. But its a problem when you can't natively/easily represent the stuff you are trying to create
21:31	gfredericks	I like "Chris himself"
21:32	kovasb	I mean, he has a point about size of market
21:32	kovasb	but funny
21:32	kovasb	how big is the lua market anyway??
21:32	lazybot	kovasb: Definitely not.
21:32	ibdknox	kovasb: hence JS
21:32	kovasb	yea exactly
21:33	ibdknox	lowest level of annoyance for highest return
21:33	ibdknox	support JS will be at least one if not two orders of magnitude harder than Clojure
21:34	ibdknox	in any case, the more money it raises, the more people I can hire to expand the languages out
21:34	ibdknox	that will address itself
21:34	ibdknox	especially with it being an open platform
21:34	gfredericks	ibdknox: separate kickstarter for each language :)
21:34	ibdknox	haha that would be interesting only in order to see how it played out
21:35	ibdknox	it would be a very good way to understand the market associated with each sector of the dev world
21:35	ibdknox	but I have plans for more than just the IDE portion :)
21:36	kovasb	henceforth I will refer to myself as "a member of the code writing industry"
21:36	kovasb	clearly this guy programs in java for a living
21:36	ibdknox	lol
21:36	kovasb	how many lines of code did you produce today, huh??
21:36	lazybot	kovasb: Definitely not.
21:37	gfredericks	kovasb: why do you always have to trigger lazybot's boolean replies???
21:37	lazybot	gfredericks: Oh, absolutely.
21:38	kovasb	gfredericks: i haven't read the source yet
21:38	kovasb	gfredericks: either that or it has it out for me
21:38	gfredericks	kovasb: I was facetiously complaining; just wanted to trigger it myself. it's just the repeat question makrs at the end
21:39	gfredericks	right lazybot???
21:39	lazybot	gfredericks: Yes, 100% for sure.
21:39	ivan	Are you sure it's just that??
21:39	lazybot	ivan: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
21:39	gfredericks	I miss sexpbot
21:39	yoklov	lol
21:39	yoklov	great name
21:39	kovasb	Anyway I came into the room because I have a serious question
21:40	kovasb	I'm getting the cljs "Can't recur here" error
21:40	ibdknox	you AOT'd the compiler
21:40	kovasb	its not the "delete the classes folder" solution
21:40	ibdknox	delete classes
21:40	ibdknox	hm
21:40	kovasb	I'm trying to combine several cljs projects
21:40	ibdknox	you need to add the skip-aot thing too
21:41	kovasb	ok will try that
21:41	kovasb	but that error = aot'ing the compiler?
21:42	ibdknox	usually
21:42	ibdknox	or you're actually recuring someplace you can't
21:42	ibdknox	but that's pretty hard to do
21:42	kovasb	its weird because it seems transient
21:42	ibdknox	it's likely the AOT stuff then
21:42	kovasb	I'm using noir-cljs and himera
21:42	ibdknox	if the cljs compiler gets aot'd terrible things happen
21:42	kovasb	id did some exclusions and i thought i fixed it..
21:43	kovasb	ibdknox: does noir-cljs do the same thing as the lein cljsbuild once?
21:43	ibdknox	no, it watches
21:43	kovasb	right, but once its starts to compile
21:44	kovasb	i think i have clojurescript in 3 places here
21:44	ibdknox	could be version mismatches or something then
21:44	kovasb	cljsbuild, noir-cljs, and himera
21:45	kovasb	i guess i will try excluding more libs until it works again
21:48	ibdknox	I suspect CodeMirror is about to get a shit ton better
21:48	ibdknox	lol
21:49	kovasb	that would be awesome
21:49	kovasb	what made you choose that over ace?
21:49	ibdknox	haha someone asked that on the latest HN thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3845316
21:50	ibdknox	tldr: it had better clojure support and wasn't a pain in the ass to setup
21:50	ibdknox	either I was just doing it wrong or the ACE instructions are terrible (haven't checked in a while, maybe it got better)
21:50	ibdknox	Something about the CodeMirror project just made me like it more too
21:52	kovasb	I spent an evening looking at the various options
21:52	kovasb	I like how ace highlights closing brackets
21:52	ibdknox	so does codemirror :)
21:52	ibdknox	you just have to turn it on
21:52	kovasb	ah :)
21:52	ibdknox	I'm really hoping someone writes paredit for it :)
21:53	ibdknox	shouldn't be that hard
21:53	kovasb	i was able to get it to work easily but the ace api does look a bit ughly
21:53	kovasb	i would kill for that
21:53	ibdknox	and might be a neat exercise
21:53	ibdknox	lol maybe that should be one of the filters for hiring
21:53	ibdknox	write paredit for CodeMirror
21:54	ibdknox	I'm really interested in how the balancing act between open source and business plays out here.
21:54	ivan	wishlist: variable-width fonts in CodeMirror with automatically fixed alignment
21:55	kovasb	there is always the hosting route
21:55	kovasb	people create cool shit with your tool.. want it hosted somewhere
21:55	septomin_	it might be nice to clarify what a license entails
21:56	ibdknox	septomin_: I agree
21:56	kovasb	in terms of quick wins, could get bought by heroku/salesforce
21:56	ibdknox	longer term vision is a lot bigger than a quick win, which I think I would want to stick out for
21:57	kovasb	how are all these other projects getting funded
21:57	kovasb	firebase etc
21:57	ibdknox	they're YC
21:57	kovasb	ah
21:57	ibdknox	which I may be too, we'll have to see.
21:57	ibdknox	septomin_: I think to download the actual thing (not the source) you will need a license, but ultimately I expect that will probably be a pay what you think it is worth model.
21:58	eggsby	I know the biz I work for is really interested in clj, they're pretty ~enterprisey~, then there's stuff like runa too
21:58	ibdknox	septomin_: in terms of the future I think there are plugins that would be worth a lot in specific domains
21:58	eggsby	ibdknox: just go the jetbrains route of community version and licensed
21:59	ibdknox	oh man, I completely forgot they did this
21:59	ibdknox	eggsby: good call, I should talk to those guys. I worked with them at MSFT
22:03	muhoo	ibdknox: i'd suggest, write it in cljs. do it for clojure. then hire someone to port it to js
22:03	gfredericks	licensed version supports vectors and maps
22:03	muhoo	who wants to do that? someone who actually likes js, that's who.
22:03	ivan	why would you need to port it to JS?
22:04	muhoo	well, not port it, but add the modules to make it handle editing js
22:04	ivan	ah
22:04	muhoo	but if you do all the design and productization stuff in cljs, really finish it up, not only will it go faster, and be more fun, but it'll be awesome for all of us :-)
22:05	muhoo	then, like i said, shouldn't be hard to find someone who just LOOOVES js. they seem to be everywhere. and your cljs code serves as a design document and interface document.
22:06	spoon16	Anyone know how to get clojurescript to output a comment at the top of the compiled output.js file? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10167896/building-a-user-script-for-chrome-using-clojurescript-how-can-i-get-the-userscr
22:09	echo-area	How to specify compilerarg for javac-opts in leiningen?
22:14	espeed	Anyone working with Datomic yet?
22:16	kovasb	espeed: I'm holding off until the dynamodb version is released
22:17	espeed	any idea when that will be?
22:19	kovasb	i hope in the next month or two, but who knows
22:19	kovasb	they are probably spending a lot of time on debugging and testing
22:26	y3di	granger on a roll
22:27	unlink_	I can't seem to get lein ring war working with leiningen 2. http://dpaste.com/732296/ /cc weavejester
22:28	krsanky	i am a level 23 magic user and here come the fireballs to the emacs haters
22:29	krsanky	its one thing to improve in a thing ...
22:29	krsanky	on*
22:40	zenlike	Anyone there? I need a spot of help.
22:40	zenlike	Can't figure out how to store functions sequentially...
22:40	zenlike	this works fine:
22:40	zenlike	,(list + - * /)
22:40	clojurebot	(#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@1b04ab2> #<core$_ clojure.core$_@cbee0d> #<core$_STAR_ clojure.core$_STAR_@91bc33> #<core$_SLASH_ clojure.core$_SLASH_@103cd1b>)
22:41	zenlike	but I can't figure out how to get, say, a sin function in that list
22:41	zenlike	this works:
22:41	zenlike	,(Math/sin 3.14)
22:41	clojurebot	0.0015926529164868282
22:41	kovasb	Math/sin is not a function
22:41	zenlike	but this throws an exception:
22:41	gfredericks	oh you want a java method
22:41	zenlike	it's a java method, not a clojure function?
22:42	gfredericks	what's the function that makes a function from a java method :/
22:42	gfredericks	zenlike: yeah
22:42	kovasb	try #(Math/sin %)
22:42	gfredericks	well that'll work
22:42	zenlike	,(list #(Math/sin %) + - /)
22:42	clojurebot	(#<sandbox$eval80$fn__81 sandbox$eval80$fn__81@181392b> #<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@1b04ab2> #<core$_ clojure.core$_@cbee0d> #<core$_SLASH_ clojure.core$_SLASH_@103cd1b>)
22:42	zenlike	cool, that seemed to work
22:42	zenlike	kovasb: care to elaborate a bit on that syntax?
22:42	zenlike	or point me to good references?
22:43	kovasb	yes, thats shorthand for (fn [x] (Math/sin x))
22:43	zenlike	interesting
22:43	zenlike	is there info about that in the clojure docs?
22:43	zenlike	that shorthand, i mean.
22:43	gfredericks	that's generic anonymous function syntax
22:43	gfredericks	equivalent to (fn [x] (Math/sin x))
22:44	kovasb	sort of. its under the "reader" section
22:44	zenlike	gfredericks: So the # demarcates that as a function, and the % is "anonymous args"?
22:44	zenlike	*demarcates as an anon function
22:44	devn	zenlike: % is 1 arg
22:45	zenlike	would %(+ % %) be for a two argument function?
22:45	zenlike	whoops, i meant #(+ % %)
22:45	eggsby	% is all args isn't it?
22:45	eggsby	and %1 %2 %3 for nth of the forms
22:46	devn	,(#(+ %1 %2 %3) 1 2 3)
22:46	gfredericks	%& is all
22:46	clojurebot	6
22:46	gfredericks	,(#(vector % %1 %2 %3 %&) 1 2 3)
22:46	clojurebot	[1 1 2 3 nil]
22:46	gfredericks	hrmph
22:46	devn	,(#(apply + %&) 1 2 3)
22:46	clojurebot	6
22:47	gfredericks	,(#(vector % %1 %2 %3 %&) 1 2 3 4 5 6)
22:47	clojurebot	[1 1 2 3 (4 5 6)]
22:47	kovasb	you repeated %1
22:47	kovasb	% = %1
22:47	gfredericks	I guess %& is the rest of the ones you didn't mention
22:47	gfredericks	,(#(vector %3 %&) 1 2 3 4 5 6)
22:47	clojurebot	[3 (4 5 6)]
22:47	devn	yes
22:47	devn	%& is the same as & args
22:47	gfredericks	so there isn't an all-the-args form
22:47	zenlike	interesting. thanks for the help.
22:48	zenlike	so using that / syntax, as in #(Math/sin %), that "/" indicates a method of a java module, in this case Math?
22:49	kovasb	its a static method
22:49	gfredericks	zenlike: the slash indicates a fully-qualified symbol
22:50	gfredericks	the first part can be one of several different things
22:50	kovasb	if Math was a class instance, then you would use (.sin Math x)
22:50	zenlike	so what is Math? a library?
22:50	TimMc	ibdknox: I'm getting my introduction to Noir by writing a wedding gift registry site for myself and my fiancée. :-D
22:50	gfredericks	zenlike: Math is a class
22:50	zenlike	ah, i see.
22:50	zakwilson	Noir is good stuff.
22:50	zenlike	in java you can just use methods from classes like that without having to make an instance?
22:51	zakwilson	Static methods.
22:51	gfredericks	zenlike: that's the difference between "static" and "instance" methods
22:51	ibdknox	TimMc: nice!
22:51	zenlike	i see.
22:51	TimMc	ibdknox: and Korma, and Hiccup...
22:52	TimMc	Gonna check out Lobos at some point too.
22:52	ibdknox	I love the Clojure community :)
22:52	TimMc	amen
22:52	TimMc	200 lines of code, and I almost have a gift registry
22:52	TimMc	just need to handle one more POST
22:53	kovasb	i don't understand why clojure doesn't provide a standard library for all that math stuff
22:53	ibdknox	I'd call that a win
22:53	TimMc	Adding administrative stuff would take a bunch more code, so we'll just edit the SQLite DB directly. :-P
22:53	eggsby	How do you guys write tests for the routes in noir/compojure ?
22:53	kovasb	why require people to learn about java for basic things..
22:54	zenlike	kovasb: yeah, that kind of confuses me too. do you think it's because the language is still pretty young, or because it's supposed to be set up that way?
22:54	TimMc	and calling it a night.
22:54	eggsby	kovasb: meh, it's generally useful information and helps you learn about interoperability features too
22:54	zenlike	like, if i didn't have any previous OO or java experience i'd be really lost trying to pick up clojure
22:54	gfredericks	the folk don't like wrapping things just for the sake of wrapping them
22:54	kovasb	zenlike: i think that the core clojure team just doesn't feel the pain of the newbie
22:55	ibdknox	I think people just aren't doing that much math?
22:55	ibdknox	not enough for a full-featured lib to exist
22:55	zenlike	kovasb: haha.
22:55	ibdknox	someone just needs to get fed up and write it
22:55	eggsby	Hmm, interesting point kovasb, do you think that clojure would be a suitable first language?
22:55	kovasb	eggsby: yes, every language has its warts
22:55	zenlike	TimMc: So are you going to write ClojureMyAdmin? :)))
22:55	eggsby	ibdknox: ~clojure in clojure~
22:56	kovasb	eggsby: clojure makes up for it with simplicity where it counts
22:56	ibdknox	not it
22:56	ibdknox	lol
22:56	ibdknox	eggsby: absolutely
22:56	ibdknox	I think I can teach people to code much faster in Clojure than most other languages
22:56	ibdknox	assuming no prior knowledge
22:56	gfredericks	let's write an "unhosted-clojure"
22:57	ibdknox	lol
22:57	zakwilson	You can avoid the underlying platform leaking through a lot more now than when I started using Clojure.
22:57	septomin_	do you think their head will explode with the first error message?
22:57	gfredericks	terrible performance, but ideal everything
22:57	zenlike	zakwilson: how so?
22:57	eggsby	that recent interview with rhickey on infoq, he had some words about clojure in clojure and the work cljs was doing
22:57	ibdknox	septomin_: your first error messages suck no matter what language you're using
22:57	zakwilson	zenlike: you don't have to know Java to read a file, for example.
22:57	septomin_	sure, but some suck more than others
22:58	zakwilson	slurp wasn't always in core.
22:58	ibdknox	you haven't yet learned how to understand failure in this case
22:58	septomin_	i just have flashbacks of trying to use STL as a 16 year old
22:58	zenlike	zakwilson: I have been trying to figure out how to use slurp.
22:58	ibdknox	programming is unique in that regard, I think
22:58	zenlike	septomin_: HAHA! I am familiar with that
22:58	gfredericks	zakwilson: if slurp were a core java method they probably might not have bothered
22:58	eggsby	heh, I couldn't get slurp to work how I wanted without declaring a java io resource :)
22:58	zakwilson	zenlike: slurp takes a path and returns a string of its contents. What's to figure out?
22:59	gfredericks	,(slurp "/etc/passwd")
22:59	zenlike	when I try to (slurp "core.clj") i get an exception that says... (hang on please)
22:59	zakwilson	gfredericks: quite possibly.
22:59	clojurebot	#<AccessControlException java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission /etc/passwd read)>
22:59	zenlike	Unable to resolve slurp, no such file or directory
23:00	zenlike	I'm pretty sure I'm in the right directory. What am I missing here?
23:00	zakwilson	zenlike: pastebin the whole stacktrace
23:00	yoklov	my hunch would be that you're not in the right directory
23:01	zenlike	What's that code for the stack trace again? (.exception e) or something... sorry, I'm blanking
23:02	zakwilson	How are you running Clojure?
23:02	zenlike	In the leiningen REPL.
23:03	zakwilson	I'd expect it to just print the stacktrace when you attempt to run code that throws an exception.
23:04	zenlike	I don't get the whole stacktrace, just one line.
23:05	zakwilson	I'm not sure about your specific situation, but try giving it a full absolute path to a file you're sure exists.
23:06	espeed	I'm new to Clojure and am working on getting Clojure 1.3, Datomic, and Leinigen 2.0 to play nicely together, but I'm getting a java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.Util.equiv(CC)Z error when running lein test.
23:08	espeed	I put the code in a Datomic Skeleton project on GitHub (https://github.com/espeed/dskel) -- would someone take a look at it and let me know what I'm missing?
23:09	zenlike	zakwilson: absolute paths did it.
23:10	zenlike	thanks for the help.
23:11	cmajor7	how much category theoretical elements are used in clojure? (e.g. applicative functors, monads, semigroups, etc..)
23:11	kovasb	cmajor7: very few if any
23:12	zakwilson	zenlike: You're probably confused as to your current working directory. Try (get (System/getenv) "PWD")
23:12	kovasb	cmajor: though there are people doing stuff with monads etc
23:12	ibdknox	jimduey is preaching the monad gospel, so there's a little
23:12	ibdknox	but not much
23:12	ibdknox	there are other mechanisms that make them less important, I think
23:12	ibdknox	but you should talk to brehaut or someone who knows more than I do on the subject :)
23:12	zakwilson	I've found Clojure to be fairly low-theory high-getting-stuff-done.
23:13	xeqi	espeed: that datomic requires 1.4.0-beta3
23:13	cmajor7	right, I saw some clojure takes on monad, but it did not really look very monadic.. would that be because of the dynamic dispatch?
23:13	cmajor7	e.g. no need for higher kinds, etc..
23:13	zenlike	zakwilson: Yeah, PWD is how I got the absolute path to work, I think it'd just that relative paths don't work at all? or at least don't seem to on my system.
23:13	xeqi	I've seen that error when I did a 1.4 aot and tried to run it on 1.3
23:13	zakwilson	zenlike: relative paths should work.
23:14	espeed	xeqi: ahh...ok
23:14	xeqi	with another project
23:14	brehaut	cmajor7: theres a functors somewhere as well as monads, but most of the categorical classes are absent (or implicit)
23:14	zakwilson	I have production code using slurp and relying on relative paths.
23:15	cmajor7	brehaut, I see.. what would be a reason for the absence (dynamic typing)?
23:15	zenlike	zakwilson: but not in the REPL, I think is what my problem might be? probably will work with code in core.clj but not in the REPL.
23:15	brehaut	cmajor7: theres nothing unmonadic about the clojure monad library though, its a bit more unweildy than haskells (because it has to use dynamic binding and explicit monad declarations rather than return type based polymorphism) but the operations you perform are exactly the same
23:15	zenlike	because my lein is actually is /usr/bin i think
23:15	brehaut	cmajor7: the biggest rason for the absence is that a lot of the uses of monads in particular are needed in clojure because the problems are solved in other ways
23:16	zenlike	so maybe paths used in the REPL need to be relative to usr/bin?
23:16	zakwilson	zenlike: it should be relative to your current working directory.
23:16	cmajor7	brehaut: you mean "are _not_ needed"?
23:16	brehaut	cmajor7: there are still times when something like the state or maybe monad is useful and those of us who know about them do reach for them
23:16	cmajor7	brehaut: would IO monad be one of such cases?
23:16	brehaut	yeah
23:16	brehaut	and yes re:IO
23:17	brehaut	that also goes for STM and ST
23:17	cmajor7	right.. STM is a natural monad..
23:17	cmajor7	interesting
23:17	brehaut	a lot of operations are implictly nil aware so maybe-m isnt as useful
23:17	brehaut	(and fnil covers a lot of the remaining cases)
23:17	brehaut	finally we have for which is list comprehensions / monad anyway
23:18	cmajor7	right..
23:18	brehaut	the biggest disadvantage is that when you dont use the monadic interface you dont get some of the generality that monads provide
23:18	brehaut	on the other hand, its less unweildy
23:18	brehaut	which is great if you dont need that generality
23:18	emacs_newb	is there any project to implement an editor, say emacs, in clojure?
23:18	cmajor7	so it seems in clojure, a monad is just something implicit and "not to worry about"
23:18	emacs_newb	it would be great to have an entire clojure based IDE
23:19	cmajor7	brehaut: can you give an example (a link is cool), on how an IO monad used on clojure?
23:19	brehaut	cmajor7: there is no IO monad in clojure
23:19	emacs_newb	you don't need monads in clojure
23:19	kovasb	emacs_newb: http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/04/12/light-table---a-new-ide-concept/
23:19	emacs_newb	you can do IO without the IO monad
23:19	brehaut	cmajor7: its implicit in the strict evaluation with side effects model
23:20	emacs_newb	kovasb: I'm throwing my credit card at my monitor, but nothing is happening
23:21	cmajor7	I see.. "with side effects" => that means it actually does not wrap into an "abstract IO type".. is there any case you would not want that.. I am thinking "something within a transaction" (but not STM, e.g. Transactional Monad)
23:21	brehaut	cmajor7: in clojure you might us a monad when you want an alternative reasoning strategy: eg a backtracking parser (state-t maybe-m) or a logic engine (core.logic has monadic underpinnings, although its not iimplemented in terms of algo.monads for performance reasons)
23:21	kovasb	emacs_newb: throw it at ibdknox
23:22	brehaut	cmajor7: the io! macro allows you to wrap up side effecting code to cause an error when its used in a transaction
23:22	kovasb	emacs_newb: there should be a kickstarter announcement imminently
23:22	ibdknox	I have no idea how long they take to review them, hopefully it'll be up tomorrow?
23:24	brehaut	cmajor7: have you looked at the tutorials on clojure.net ?
23:25	cmajor7	brehaut: niice.. (to io! macro and http://www.clojure.net/2012/02/02/Monads-in-Clojure/) reading… but in general, when you say "problems are solved in other ways", would you say these "ways" are more side effect approving/tolerant?
23:26	brehaut	well the side effecting stuff yes
23:26	brehaut	in particular atoms, agents and stm refs
23:26	brehaut	for stuff that you would use IO,ST and STM monads for in haskell
23:27	cmajor7	where I am coming from is "are these other ways" lose the way to be as composable as e.g. with a category pitch languages?
23:28	brehaut	i dont see your argument
23:28	brehaut	if you need monadic composition
23:28	brehaut	use a monad
23:28	brehaut	and clojures stm without a monad is composable anyway
23:29	emacs_newb	without intending to start a flamewar -- did smalltalk really have all these features?
23:29	emacs_newb	if so, what caused it to fail, the child-like UI?
23:29	emacs_newb	(in reference to HN comments on "everything in light table = already existed in smalltalk")
23:29	kovasb	emacs_newb: there was an extinction event around 1990
23:29	kovasb	smalltalk, lisp
23:30	emacs_newb	kovasb: are you referring to symbolics?
23:30	kovasb	much broader than just that
23:30	pipeline	emacs_newb: bad vendor support, ai winter, lousy performance
23:30	kovasb	"ai winter"
23:30	kovasb	other platforms took off
23:30	pipeline	emacs_newb: let us not forget: much of lisp's early success in the 80s was based in custom hardware
23:31	pipeline	kovasb: what platforms took off in the 80s besides as/400
23:31	emacs_newb	so basically, if the symbolics or smalltalks guys
23:31	emacs_newb	thought to port their work to java vm
23:31	emacs_newb	the world could be a very different place
23:31	pipeline	symbolics actually survived the ai winter
23:31	pipeline	they were killed off by idiot real estate deals
23:31	pipeline	and they had a working VM predating the jvm
23:31	pipeline	aka opengenera
23:31	kovasb	possibly, though it took a long time for the JVM to become awesome
23:32	cmajor7	brehaut: no argument. all questions. the biggest pitch for haskell / scalaz / etc.. is composability => use higher kinds (via e.g. type constructors) / wrap everything into another "pure" type and "fmap" (e.g. tranform) everything to return a wrapped world.. which allows for most if not everything to be referentially transparent. clojure is a lot simpler and cleaner (in my opinion), but what I'd like to understand is "which "other ways" is
23:32	pipeline	i'm not even kidding here, and a little bit of google can confirm it for you
23:32	kovasb	also, programming languages research abandoned that tradition as well
23:32	pipeline	symbolics bit it in large part becouse of a bad office real estate deal
23:32	kovasb	getting more into type theory, monad stuff :)
23:32	pipeline	at the time that they bit it, they were selling two of their most compelling products: opengenera, lisp targeting a VM, and embedded ivory processors for network switching
23:34	kovasb	pipeline: if they were doing well, that wouldn't have killed them tho
23:35	kovasb	cmajor: clojure is the most composable language i've seen
23:35	kovasb	cmajor: there is a lot more to it besides nice mathematical properties
23:36	kovasb	cmajor: check out the "simple made easy" talk by rich hicket
23:36	kovasb	y
23:36	cmajor7	kovasb: I'd like to agree with you, just wanted some comparative feedback
23:36	kovasb	cmajor: yeah, totally
23:36	kovasb	cmajor: rich does talk about certain things that are easier in haskell
23:37	kovasb	i believe its brought up in the talk, but i don't remember for sure
23:38	kovasb	the closest thing to a composability "silver bullet" is immutability
23:38	kovasb	and functions
23:39	cmajor7	right, but there are also side effects..
23:39	kovasb	but beyond that its all about designing a multitude of things right
23:40	kovasb	side effects can potentially be broken down into classes of problems
23:40	espeed	xeqi: thanks, it works now.
23:41	kovasb	trying to cram the whole space of them into a single solution might not be ideal
23:41	kovasb	but I'm just one guy talking
23:41	kovasb	if your side effect is "change this value in memory" then the stm is a potential solution for that class
23:42	kovasb	other kinds of side effects might have different solution
23:42	kovasb	like resource management
23:43	kovasb	maybe monads are the best thing for io, but its a problem that does not come up that often for me personally
23:43	eggsby	it's a subset of problems, when you need them you need them
23:44	eggsby	the guys who work almost exclusively w/ derivatives/trading seem to love them tho
23:47	kovasb	interesting. i did not know that
23:47	kovasb	i thought they generally code in languages that don't support them
23:47	kovasb	the guys i know use java, python
23:55	cmajor7	kovasb: makes sense, thanks for thoughts..
23:55	kovasb	cmajor7: sure!
23:56	yoklov	ibdknox: is it normal for waltz to say "WARNING: Use of undeclared Var waltz.state/get-in-sm at line 30" the first time it gets compiled?
23:56	yoklov	weirdly it only complains the first time, and it always works
23:56	ibdknox	never seen that
23:57	ibdknox	but I think I have those off
23:57	ibdknox	or rather, they weren't on by default
23:57	ibdknox	JS doesn't have the same limitations as Clojure does
23:57	ibdknox	so I probably did something stupid clojure-wise
23:57	ibdknox	that works fine in javascript :)
23:57	kovasb	i think that is a new warning
23:57	ibdknox	likely just need to reorder the var
23:57	kovasb	i just started seeing it today
23:57	yoklov	they catch bugs where i mispell names, i don't think that i have it turned on...
23:58	yoklov	i'm using cljs master though
23:58	yoklov	i really like waltz though.
23:59	ibdknox	I need to add the deterministic mode
23:59	ibdknox	so much to do :)
23:59	yoklov	yeah, i'm using it as a deterministic fsa