#clojure – 2012-04-01

2012-04-01

00:00	TimMc	y3di: Symbols that the compiler special-cases.
00:00	TimMc	They're built into the compiler as literals.
00:02	TimMc	y3di: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/1.3.x/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Compiler.java#L39
00:03	TimMc	Not everything that the compiler special cases is a special form; many of those are just for optimization or bootstrapping.
00:24	y3di	wait, whats the difference between binding and let?
00:32	TimMc	dynamic and lexical scope
00:32	Frozenlock	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1523240/let-vs-binding-in-clojure
00:34	Frozenlock	Is there a function to compress files?
00:40	Frozenlock	This might do : https://github.com/bonega/pacl
00:44	muhoo	ns_pablo: preroutes?
00:48	ns_pablo	muhoo: what do you mean?
00:48	muhoo	ns_pablo: http://www.webnoir.org/autodoc/1.0.0/noir.core-api.html#noir.core/pre-route
00:48	ns_pablo	afaik preroutes are used to aggregate behaviors for multiple routes, like checking for authentication
00:49	ns_pablo	how would I use preroutes in this way?
00:50	ns_pablo	I'm new with Noir, so forgive me if it's something obvious...
00:50	muhoo	i dunno, exactly, it's just a guess.
00:50	muhoo	http://www.webnoir.org/tutorials/routes
00:50	muhoo	i'm new too
00:50	muhoo	maybe you could use resp/redirect
00:51	muhoo	to redirect based on the "module" url
00:52	muhoo	like (pre-route "/foo" {} (resp/redirect "/soemwher/else")) ?
00:52	Frozenlock	I think it doesn't solve the basic issue, which if I'm right was to be able to simply specifiy a part of the url. "/test" instead of "/blog/test".
00:52	ns_pablo	well, that might work... I'll take a look at the source to see what exactly is preroute doing
00:52	ns_pablo	Frozenlock but it might be a start towards a homegrown solution
00:55	ns_pablo	what I'm really looking for is something like this http://www.padrinorb.com/guides/mounting-applications
01:04	ns_pablo	This would be actually pretty easy to accomplish with Moustache: http://pastie.org/3707127
04:10	wei_	aoeu
04:11	wei_	oops sorry
06:35	espringe	I've written a parser, which produces an in-memory sexpresion that can be eval'd or what not. But I want to transform it into a a string, that is valid clojure code. Is there a built-in function for that?
06:36	espringe	e.g. when it turns the three letter string 'dog' into the five-lettter "dog" (adds quotes)
06:39	morphling	espringe: pr
06:39	espringe	morphling: perfect, thanks
06:40	bsteuber	or pr-str
06:43	laurus	Are people still working on Incanter?
06:46	bsteuber	laurus: given https://github.com/liebke/incanter/network - yes
06:49	laurus	bsteuber, interesting, thanks for that.
08:20	jayunit100	how does clojure "know" when its reached the end of a lazy-seq ?
08:20	jayunit100	(doc lazy-seq)
08:20	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions that returns an ISeq or nil, and yields a Seqable object that will invoke the body only the first time seq is called, and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent seq calls. See also - realized?"
08:22	jayunit100	Im looking at the code for the partition function in https://github.com/richhickey/clojure-contrib/blob/master/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/string.clj..... and trying to figure out how it is that the (lazy-seq ... ) function ever returns.
08:26	gfredericks	jayunit100: without looking at it, the confusion probably comes from the fact that lazy-seq is a macro
08:26	gfredericks	macros don't follow the normal rules of evaluation
08:26	jayunit100	oh duh
08:26	jayunit100	thanks that helps okay.
08:27	jayunit100	so... lazy-seq is probably taking my function and implementing the ISeq interfaces for me.
08:28	gfredericks	whatever body you pass to lazy-seq has to return a seq
08:29	gfredericks	what lazy-seq does is prevent the body from being evaluated until necessary
08:30	gfredericks	regarding your earlier question about how clojure knows it has reached the end -- same as with a non-lazy seq. If the rest method returns nil (I believe) then that's the end
08:30	gfredericks	give or take a few details
08:30	gfredericks	the fact that it's lazy only changes when the sequence is computed, not how you interact with it
08:30	gfredericks	as a consumer of the seq
08:39	jayunit100	(macroexpand clojure.contrib.string/partition)
08:39	jayunit100	seems to return something not-useful
08:40	raek	jayunit100: macroexpand is a function so you have to give it the unevaluated code
08:40	raek	(macroexpand '(clojure.contrib.string/partition ...))
08:41	raek	,(macroexpand '(when x a b c))
08:41	clojurebot	(if x (do a b c))
08:42	jayunit100	hmmmmm
08:43	raek	also, clojure.contrib.string is outdated
08:43	raek	if possible, use clojure.string instead
08:43	jayunit100	user=> (require 'clojure.contrib.string)
08:43	jayunit100	nil
08:43	jayunit100	user=> (macroexpand '(clojure.contrib.string/partition pattern largeString))
08:43	jayunit100	(clojure.contrib.string/partition pattern largeString)
08:43	raek	are you sure partition is not just a regular function?
08:44	jayunit100	it is . but i thought macroexpand would look for macros inside of it :)
08:44	jayunit100	I guess it doesnt work that way :(
08:44	raek	the code in a function body is not inserted into the call site
08:44	jayunit100	but im surprised it didnt through an error.
08:44	jayunit100	throw i mean.
08:45	jayunit100	should macroexpand throw an error if a function is given as input
08:45	raek	macroexpand takes an arbitrary expression and expands any macros in it
08:45	raek	in you case there were none, so the input was the same as the output
08:46	raek	think of macroexpand as a pre-filtering step of the compiler
08:46	raek	jayunit100: anyway, you can copy the body of the partition source code and pass it to macroexpand
08:47	raek	,(macroexpand '(lazy-seq (when x (cons y z))))
08:47	clojurebot	(new clojure.lang.LazySeq (fn* [] (when x (cons y z))))
08:48	raek	here you see a glimpse of how lazy seqs are implemented
08:57	gfredericks	jayunit100: one thing that may not be obvious is that because macros are effective at compile-time, a macro is only concerned with the _forms_ of the code that is given to the macro
08:58	gfredericks	(defmacro is-string? [x] (if (string? x) true false))
08:58	gfredericks	(is-string? "foo") will emit true
08:58	gfredericks	(let [s "foo"] (is-string? s)) will emit false
08:59	gfredericks	so when you wrote (macroexpand '(clojure.contrib.string/partition pattern
08:59	gfredericks	largeString))
09:00	gfredericks	eh nevermind I don't have anything else to say
09:02	RickInGA	TheBusby: you around?
09:39	Lajla	&(:fart {:fart "lol"})
09:39	lazybot	⇒ "lol"
09:40	Lajla	&({:fart "lol"} :fart)
09:40	lazybot	⇒ "lol"
09:40	Lajla	&(:fart {:diarrhoea "lol"})
09:40	lazybot	⇒ nil
09:55	gtrak``	anyone ever write a physics engine? I'm getting some fun 'emergent' behavior :-), not sure where to go to learn about how to do this right: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=415OTzYEXsk
09:57	gfredericks	gtrak``: what's going on in this video?
09:58	gfredericks	in particular with the all the balls falling to one side thing
09:58	gtrak``	ah, that's from user input, applying an acceleration
09:58	AimHere	He forgot to switch the second law of thermodynamics on ;)
09:58	gfredericks	okay; that was my guess
09:58	gtrak``	the emergent parts are the collisions that should happen and don't and the funny orbiting and sticking
09:58	tmciver	gtrak``: yes, I'm curious too. It looks like the balls stick together sometimes.
09:59	tmciver	gtrak``: if you didn't intend for that behavior, it might be a bug with the collision detection.
09:59	gfredericks	maybe he programmed in gravity :)
09:59	gtrak``	van der waals forces
10:00	tmciver	gtrak``: Really? Is it supposed to be a molecular simulator?
10:00	gtrak``	j/k about that, yea, collision detection's borken, fun thing about this kind of thing is it's impossible to test :-)
10:01	gfredericks	that can't be true
10:01	gfredericks	is it deterministic?
10:01	gtrak``	well, hard to test
10:01	gfredericks	oh okay then :)
10:01	tmciver	Yes, it should be testable.
10:02	gtrak``	yea, it's all functional except for a single atom swap! on top
10:02	gfredericks	run the thing and expect that at each step the balls aren't closer than their radius
10:02	gfredericks	watch the failures come piling in
10:03	gfredericks	oh I just imagined doing it multithreaded where each ball is a ref
10:03	gtrak``	oh gosh, haha, that would be awful
10:03	gfredericks	and you have a spatial index telling you which balls are nearby that you need to coordinate with
10:03	gtrak``	but actually the drawing thread is separate, the simulation runs at 500fps
10:04	tmciver	nice
10:04	gtrak``	no optimization really, I'm impressed with the jvm
10:06	gtrak``	gfredericks, yea, the spatial index is one way to avoid checking every object against every object, right now it's n^2
10:08	y3di	ref and atoms are pretty similar
10:09	gtrak``	i imagine if you're doing all the calcs on one thread like me, an atom's much better
10:10	gfredericks	y3di: yeah using refs would allow you to do some updates in parallel
10:10	gtrak``	and there's an issue with throughput vs latency, it's always better to have predictable latency
10:11	gtrak``	in games i mean
10:12	gtrak``	i could use refs for scripted events, but not a tight simulation like this
10:12	gfredericks	I didn't mean it too seriously :)
10:12	gfredericks	although it'd be interesting to know what kind of scalability that would buy
10:13	gtrak``	hmm, i could probably pmap some things
10:13	gtrak``	if you're curious: https://github.com/gtrak/quilltest/blob/master/src/quilltest/balls.clj
10:15	y3di	how come some functions like swap! have a bang at the end?
10:15	y3di	what does the ! represent?
10:15	gtrak``	! generally means mutable i think
10:15	gfredericks	sometimes mutation, sometimes hazardness...
10:15	gfredericks	sometimes it has to do with dosync specifically I think
10:15	gfredericks	in the case of swap!
10:16	tmciver	gtrak``: how is your collision checking n^2? I wrote a very simple 2D physics engine in Java some time ago but I believe my collision checking was something approximating n factorial: check one object against all others, if it wasn't colliding with anything, remove if from the list of objects to check. Then continue with the rest of them.
10:16	tmciver	s/remove if/remove it
10:16	gfredericks	tmciver: that sounds n^2 to me
10:16	gfredericks	you're checking all pairs
10:17	tmciver	I'm terrible at this complexity stuff.
10:17	gfredericks	tmciver: it's addition vs multiplication
10:17	gtrak``	(filter (fn [[a b]] (p/colliding? (:rigid-body a) (:rigid-body b)))(for [x guys y guys [x y]))
10:17	gfredericks	tmciver: factorial is (apply * (range n)), whereas in this case it is (apply + (range n))
10:17	gfredericks	which is asymptotically equiv to n^2
10:18	gtrak``	i could fix that for to remove duplicate pairs if I keep a set
10:18	gtrak``	but it's still n^2
10:18	tmciver	gtrak``: you may be able to do better than that; aren't you chekcking objects against themselves and rechecking objects that can be known not to be colliding with anything?
10:19	gfredericks	I think that's what he means by removing duplicate pairs
10:19	gtrak``	yea, i can def do better, but like i said, it's totally fast enough right now for casual things :-), i want to make it right though
10:19	gfredericks	tmciver: if an algorithm has anything to do with factorials you don't have much hope for doing anything with more than 10 objects
10:21	tmciver	gfredericks: so the algo I described is something less than n^2. I don't know what kind of frame rate I was getting but my simulator seemed to move along with much more that 10 objects.
10:21	gtrak``	duplicate as in [:a :b] = [:b :a]
10:22	gfredericks	tmciver: less than n^2 steps in absolute terms, but in complexity terms it is still n^2
10:22	tmciver	gfredericks: makes sense.
10:22	tmciver	gtrak``: also duplicate as in checking :a against :a
10:22	gtrak``	n^2 -5 is still n^2, so is n^2 -5x
10:23	gfredericks	n^2-5n you mean? :)
10:23	gtrak``	tmciver, yea, I caught that one, just didn't paste it in
10:23	gtrak``	gfredericks, yes :-)
10:24	gfredericks	and most relevant to this case is that 0.5*n^2 is still n^2
10:34	jayunit100	what is a " body of expressions"
10:34	y3di	why would you use futures over a function that started a new java thread?
10:35	y3di	jayunit100: in context to defining macros?
10:35	jayunit100	yeah
10:36	gfredericks	y3di: futures are syntactically simpler, and take care of providing a box for the result of the computation to go in
10:36	gfredericks	they might also be thread-pooled
10:37	gfredericks	and maybe even do the binding thing
10:38	jayunit100	im wondering... what it means to take a "body of expressions" as input. Is that synonymous to taking "n expressions"
10:38	gfredericks	yeah it means multiple experssions
10:38	y3di	jayunit100: i believe so
10:38	gfredericks	the canonical example is do
10:38	y3di	gfredericks: what's thread pooling?
10:39	gfredericks	y3di: runs the futures in a thread pool instead of creating a new thread for each one indiscriminately
10:39	gfredericks	which I assume means creating a million futures is more feasible than a million threads
10:39	y3di	so that means, oh ok, so futures will essentially wait for threeads to free up
10:39	gtrak``	y3di, i think in general you should separate computations (values) from the details of their execution, future is more abstract than a thread but gets the job done
10:40	gfredericks	&(->> (for [x (range 1000000)] (future x)) (map deref) (apply +))
10:40	lazybot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! future-call is bad!
10:41	gtrak``	if you look at haskell's 'everything's lazy', that's more obvious
10:41	gtrak``	they might take it too far, though
10:42	gfredericks	oh I guess that code snippet doesn't actually illustrate anything since it's lazy
10:42	gfredericks	would have to doall before the map
10:43	jayunit100	hmmm it looks like (lazy-seq) cant have nils in the middle .... since that is the "end" of a the list.
10:44	gfredericks	jayunit100: nil values should be fine
10:44	jayunit100	then how will the lazy-seq "know" when the list is done ?
10:44	jayunit100	it would be infinitely long ?
10:44	gfredericks	it's when the entire rest of the sequence is null
10:44	gfredericks	not just one of the entries
10:45	jayunit100	oh ok. so if "rest" is null
10:45	jayunit100	where rest is a list.
10:45	gfredericks	right
10:45	gfredericks	&(count (lazy-seq (cons 1 nil)))
10:45	lazybot	⇒ 1
10:46	gfredericks	&(count (lazy-seq nil))
10:46	lazybot	⇒ 0
10:46	jayunit100	is there a way to grep the history of my repl
10:46	jayunit100	like in bash?
10:46	jayunit100	,(history)
10:46	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: history in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
10:53	jayunit100	that is, maybe someone knows where the repl stores history so i can hack it.
11:02	jayunit100	hmmm.. is there a way to reload the current lein namespace ?
11:02	jayunit100	i.e. reload the source without explicitly mentioning a file name.
11:03	mega`	youst lein not lein.core?
11:03	mega`	just*
11:03	jayunit100	you mean....
11:04	jayunit100	i ran "lein repl" from the root of a project.. and made some changes to multiple files.
11:04	mega`	i dont realy know the use case are you writing a plugin ?? why do you whant to reaload the source
11:04	jayunit100	can I reload the project in lein
11:04	jayunit100	no , much simpler than that.
11:04	llasram	jayunit100: (require 'your.namespace :reload) ?
11:04	mega`	oo the project
11:04	jayunit100	Im just editing more than one file in a clojure project
11:05	jayunit100	---- im used to clicking "clean" in eclipse. assuming there is an analog in lein ?
11:05	jayunit100	sorry about the confusion :)
11:07	jayunit100	(other than ctrl-c)
11:08	jayunit100	hmm this is interesting - looks like "time" doesnt evaluate an anonymous function that is passed in. I wonder why ?
11:09	jayunit100	,(time #(reduce + (range 1000)))
11:09	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 0.429 msecs"
11:09	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval27$ret__3993__auto____28 sandbox$eval27$ret__3993__auto____28@118b78d>
11:09	mega`	, (time (reduce + (range 10000)))
11:09	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 69.498 msecs"
11:09	clojurebot	49995000
11:09	mega`	its a macro
11:11	gtrak``	,(time (#(reduce + (range 1000)))
11:11	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:11	mega`	missing a paren
11:11	gtrak``	,(time (#(reduce + (range 1000))))
11:11	clojurebot	"Elapsed time: 1.219 msecs"
11:11	clojurebot	499500
11:11	gtrak``	jayunit100, or for more clarity
11:12	gtrak``	,#(reduce + (range 1000)))
11:12	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval139$fn__140 sandbox$eval139$fn__140@f2e01b>
11:13	mega`	, (macroexpand '(time (#(reduce + (range 1000)))))
11:13	clojurebot	(let* [start__3992__auto__ (. java.lang.System (clojure.core/nanoTime)) ret__3993__auto__ ((fn* [] (reduce + (range 1000))))] (clojure.core/prn (clojure.core/str "Elapsed time: " (clojure.core// (clojure.core/double (clojure.core/- (. java.lang.System (clojure.core/nanoTime)) start__3992__auto__)) 1000000.0) " msecs")) ret__3993__auto__)
11:14	jayunit100	okay....
11:14	mega`	clear as paj
11:15	jayunit100	Im trying to understand whats the difference when I wrap the anonymous functoin in a closure.
11:15	jayunit100	,#(reduce + [1 2])
11:15	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval193$fn__194 sandbox$eval193$fn__194@5abaee>
11:15	gtrak``	huh?
11:15	jayunit100	,(#(reduce + [1 2]))
11:15	clojurebot	3
11:15	jayunit100	ha
11:15	jayunit100	okay
11:15	jayunit100	wrapping it in clojure results in evaluation.
11:15	gtrak``	there it is, eureka!!!
11:15	jayunit100	:]
11:16	gtrak``	actually, the anonymous function is a closure, wrapping it in parens executes a function, just like anything else
11:16	gtrak``	,(1)
11:16	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
11:17	jayunit100	ok
11:24	jayunit100	(bump question about grepping through lein history).
11:32	jayunit100	i do see a .lein folder, but that seems not to have any history data in it.
11:53	yoklov	is there a better way to get the current value of 'this' in clojurescript than (js* "this")
11:54	mega`	theres a this-as macro
11:54	yoklov	is there?
11:55	yoklov	still not really what I'm looking for.
11:55	gtrak``	huh, why wouldn't that be the same thing?
11:55	yoklov	oh wait
11:55	mega`	js/this maybe works
11:56	yoklov	i misunderstood what this-as did
11:56	gtrak``	http://www.chris-granger.com/2012/02/20/overtone-and-clojurescript/
11:56	gtrak``	there's an example
11:58	mega`	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/src/clj/cljs/core.clj#L205
11:58	yoklov	yup
11:58	yoklov	i was already on that page actually haha
11:58	yoklov	looking for something like that.
11:59	gtrak``	gawd, extend-type is pretty intense
12:00	mega`	yea maybe extract some functions there
12:02	yoklov	they'd have to be in the api if you did that though, right?
12:02	yoklov	because it's a macro and you couldn't defn- them
12:02	mega`	you can call functions from macros
12:02	yoklov	not private ones though, right?
12:02	yoklov	in a separate namespace
12:03	yoklov	i actually am unsure how clojure deals with that, its an issue I always thought racket dealt with inelegantly
12:03	mega`	you can call them while generating the code
12:03	yoklov	right
12:03	mega`	you cant refere to them in the produced code but you cant do that in cljs anny way
12:04	yoklov	hm, i guess less of that is actual macro output than i thought at first glance
12:04	mega`	Oo o ok
12:04	mega`	yea its mostly code and branches
12:07	jayunit100	hungarian notation for clojure !
12:07	jayunit100	http://web.mst.edu/~cpp/common/hungarian.html
12:07	mega`	love it
12:07	mega`	start doing that
12:08	TimMc	noooo, that's Systems Hungarian
12:08	TimMc	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_notation#Systems_vs._Applications_Hungarian
12:09	jayunit100	ah good point
12:10	mega`	i had a robotics corse in scool where whe had to use a simelar notation
12:10	jayunit100	what about maps/arrays/lists
12:10	mega`	write o-* like in "object" :D
12:11	jayunit100	,(nth "ABC")
12:11	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$nth>
12:11	jayunit100	oops meant to put that in the repl
12:12	yoklov	comma included? :p
12:12	jayunit100	yup
12:12	jayunit100	dont ask
12:12	yoklov	i mean, it is whitespace :)
12:12	jayunit100	ha
12:13	jayunit100	its funny b/c no joke then i did it in the repl to w/ the comma .
12:27	jayunit100	,(seq (.toCharArray "ASDF"))
12:27	clojurebot	(\A \S \D \F)
12:27	jayunit100	this seems awefully non-elegant
12:27	mega`	Oo
12:27	mega`	, (seq "ASDF")
12:27	clojurebot	(\A \S \D \F)
12:27	mega`	pew pew
12:28	gtrak``	what else would it be?
12:28	gtrak``	maybe it just looks ugly :-)
12:28	jayunit100	well.. figured ther'd be a function for it
12:29	mega`	, (apply str (seq "ASDF"))
12:29	clojurebot	"ASDF"
12:29	jayunit100	with all this "clojurscript", "clojure in python" stuff... Im thinking it might be best to avoid java artifacts when possible
12:29	jayunit100	,(seq "ASDF")
12:29	clojurebot	(\A \S \D \F)
12:29	jayunit100	ha
12:38	mega`	reddit has a time machine now :D :D :D :D
12:56	jonasen	lynaghk`: ping
13:02	hhutch	ibdknox: are you around?
13:06	jayunit100	um need some newbie help on a find-first-repeated-character .
13:06	jayunit100	http://pastebin.com/iCTmxAX4
13:07	jayunit100	if anyone has 3 milliseconds to look. Error is : ClassCastException java.lang.Character cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn problems.core/eval816 (NO_SOURCE_FILE:196)
13:07	mk	jayunit100: you seem to be putting a character into a list and accidentally executing it
13:08	mega`	you are using underline in your names
13:08	jayunit100	no underlines ?
13:08	mega`	thats clearly the prob
13:08	mega`	ofc
13:08	jayunit100	wow
13:08	mk	jayunit100: the convention is to use - instead of _
13:09	jayunit100	(defn first-duplicate-char [str-in]
13:09	jayunit100	(loop [list-Rem (seq str-in) set-Seen (set [])]
13:09	jayunit100	(print (type list-Rem) " " list-Rem (next list-Rem) "\n")
13:09	jayunit100	(if (= 0 (count str-in))
13:09	jayunit100	nil
13:09	jayunit100	(if (some #(= (first list-Rem) %) set-Seen)
13:09	mega`	also to create a set use #{}
13:09	jayunit100	(first list-Rem)
13:09	jayunit100	(recur
13:09	jayunit100	(seq (next list-Rem))
13:09	jayunit100	(conj set-Seen (first list-Rem)))))))
13:09	dnolen	jayunit100: please don't paste in channel
13:09	jayunit100	oh god that was ugly sorry wont do it again.
13:09	mega`	, (class #{})
13:10	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
13:10	dnolen	,(let [x_cool 1] (+ 1 x_cool))
13:10	clojurebot	2
13:10	jayunit100	I think underlines are okay.
13:10	dnolen	jayunit100: they are
13:11	mk	just don't use them in your code if you want it to be easy to read
13:11	dnolen	jayunit100: as mk says, _ are not idiomatic in names
13:12	jayunit100	updated.... But still fails .... :(. Whats the best way to debug this ? http://pastebin.com/RCXHy7bb
13:12	mk	(first list_Rem) looks like it has 3 elements at a glance, while (first list-rem) has just 2
13:13	TimMc	mk: Huh, that hasn't been a problem for me.
13:13	TimMc	...but maye that's because I've been doing some Python programming
13:14	lynaghk	jonasen: pong
13:14	jonasen	lynaghk: I released 0.0.3
13:14	mk	TimMc: it's subtle. It's just a bit of extra noise that you don't need (like the capitals on Rem)
13:14	lynaghk	jonasen: yeah, I just saw that. Thanks!
13:15	jayunit100	yeah. the rem should be lower case.
13:15	lynaghk	I'll do one last run through with cljx and open source that later today
13:15	jayunit100	but of course... my concern is this weird cast thingy. it seems perfect to me. the recursion prints out the correct smaller list on every iteration.
13:16	jayunit100	update --- okay, its definetly failing when it completes. For some reason... the return value is being evaluated or something... rather than just printed out at the REPL.
13:17	lynaghk	jonasen: also, re: mailing list. I don't think it would hurt. There seem to be a lot of people watching Kibit, so it'd be interesting to see what everyone is doing with it. Github chats are skewed to people with, er, issues.
13:17	mega`	jayunit100: http://pastebin.com/3P9Qd8P7
13:17	mega`	jayunit100: just to show you some stuff
13:17	dnolen	jonasen: lynaghk: I know I've said this before, but kibit is awesome!
13:18	jayunit100	mega thanks
13:18	jonasen	dnolen: thanks!
13:18	jayunit100	mega`: thanks i mean. :-]
13:18	dnolen	jonasen: lynaghk: I gave kibit 0.2 a run on Clojure itself and it ran suprisingly quickly.
13:18	lynaghk	dnolen: yes, it is crazy awesome!
13:18	mk	what does non-repetitive mean?
13:19	mk	which problem is this from?
13:19	dnolen	so kibit can easily handle 14000 lines of Clojure which is going to bigger than most Clojure / ClojureScript projects
13:19	mega`	jayunit100: the ` is dear to me
13:19	lynaghk	dnolen: your speed test might make this a moot point, but will the fork/join stuff work automagically once it's merged into core.logic?
13:20	jayunit100	ha
13:20	jonasen	dnolen: I've done some optimizations on a private branch so I know how to make it run quicker if necessary :)
13:20	dnolen	lynaghk: probably, but I haven't looked into it quickly.
13:20	dnolen	jonasen: yeah as the rules get larger you probably want to do some indexing.
13:20	dnolen	I mean I haven't look into it deeply.
13:21	dnolen	jonasen: is it pretty easy to add your own rules right now?
13:21	jonasen	dnolen: no. This release is mostly for Kevin ;) More to come!
13:22	dnolen	jonasen: yeah I imagine different shops would want to add rules for work practices.
13:22	lynaghk	dnolen: later today I'll be releasing a kibit-based lein plugin for rewriting sources. There is an option for custom rules in that
13:22	lynaghk	dnolen: depending on what you want to do with your custom rules.
13:23	dnolen	jonasen: one thing to think about is very complex rules really are possible - did the file ever get closed kind of thing. non thread safe Java types etc. You could probably even detect race conditions in ClojureScript.
13:24	dnolen	lynaghk: very cool!
13:27	jayunit100	ok migrated to stack overflow : I think the issue is that the return val is being evaluated. not sure why though. probably a good lesson in here, somewhere. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9966483/clojure-return-value-being-evaluated ..
13:34	TimMc	jayunit100: (set []) is #{}, (seq (next ...)) is (next ...), #'some on a set should really be #'contains
13:34	jayunit100	TimMc ?
13:35	TimMc	&(contains? (set "hello") \o)
13:35	lazybot	⇒ true
13:35	jayunit100	oh i see, again not idiomatic.
13:35	TimMc	And I think you want rest, not next.
13:35	jayunit100	yeah, I was doing that just to validate the types and make them super explicit.
13:35	jayunit100	why rest not next?
13:36	jayunit100	,(= (rest [1 2]) (next [1 2]))
13:36	clojurebot	true
13:36	xeqi	,(= (rest []) (next []))
13:36	clojurebot	false
13:36	jayunit100	touche.
13:37	hhutch	dnolen: have you used ibdknox's monet?
13:38	dnolen	hhutch: i have not
13:38	jayunit100	TimMc: same problem still exists, even after changing to "rest" .
13:38	mfex	jayunit100, the exceptions are probably thrown by functions using first-duplicate-char, rather than in the function itself
13:39	hhutch	dnolen: you've done a bit of canvas+clojurescript though, right?
13:39	dnolen	hhutch: actually not much
13:39	dnolen	hhutch: do you have a general question?
13:39	hhutch	dnolen: ok. i'm just concerned about the cpu usage
13:40	dnolen	hhutch: I would just program canvas directly w/ CLJS
13:41	dnolen	hhutch: monet I think monet may lean on some of the higher level CLJS features which is not so good of your doing lots of custom drawing and perf really matters.
13:41	dnolen	hhutch: ibdknox would know better than I tho I haven't looked at monet closely.
13:41	hhutch	dnolen: well, the issue with monet that i can see, which is just using canvas directly, is that it has a draw-loop which is redrawing the canvas constantly
13:41	jayunit100	mfex hmm. im calling it from the repl.
13:42	jayunit100	mfex:
13:42	jayunit100	OMG THANK YOU
13:42	hhutch	i have a cellular automata that is eating up 100% cpu when run in chrome
13:42	jayunit100	my problem was that I was wrapping the call in another closure somewhere.
13:42	dnolen	hhutch: just write your own thing :)
13:43	hhutch	dnolen: yeah i'm going to, i just wanted to see if anybody else had looked at the issue
13:43	mfex	jayunit100, the function can still use some work tho :)
13:43	jayunit100	Man.. It would be cool if clojure could embed some kind of safeguards for this. I always run into this problem.
13:43	jayunit100	Yeah, I was trying to hack it together as fast as possible without using the cheatsheet
13:43	hhutch	dnolen: thanks
13:43	dnolen	hhutch: fwiw, even pure JS I tend to avoid libraries for custom canvas drawing.
13:44	jayunit100	Im finding that i generally spend to much time w/ lein and docs when im learning new clojure stuff.. rather than focuing on writing stateless/dynamic lisp. the latter i think is more important as a first step .
13:44	Frozenlock	Is there a way to send a file to a Noir server by simply double clicking on an hyperlink shortcut? I want the user to be able to go the website and at the same time send pre-made data (small file). I'm thinking of using B64 encoded file in the url, but it feels like an ugly hack.
13:45	TimMc	jayunit100: I did a full answer on stackoverflow
13:46	jayunit100	Cool thanks. Im cleaning it up now.
13:49	weavejester	Has anyone ran into problems with lein2 and trampoline?
13:49	dnolen	weavejester: yep
13:49	dnolen	weavejester: well I should qualify that - lein2 and lein-cljsbuild w/ trampoline doesn't seem to work.
13:49	weavejester	dnolen: Are you getting an "Unreadable form" error?
13:50	dnolen	weavejester: hmm, no I wasn't getting a specific error - just wasn't working.
13:50	weavejester	Hm… I don't see any issues open like this. I guess I'll report it.
13:51	TimMc	jayunit100: Made some more edits. I think I'm done.
13:56	TimMc	jayunit100: Your problem was that (= 0 (count str-in)) never changes, so you eventually try to call first on nil.
13:56	TimMc	Don't know if you saw that -- I edited it in just now.
13:57	AimHere	Idiomatically, isn't (= 0 (count str-in)) better written as (zero? (count str-in)) or even better (empty? str-in) ?
13:57	jayunit100	TimMc: actually that wasnt causing the bug. it was the way i called it at the repl
13:58	TimMc	&(first nil) ; oh, you might be right...
13:58	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:58	jayunit100	AimHere: yeah. much more idiomatic to do it that way.
13:58	andyfingerhut	Would a github-related question be out of line here, if it is for a Clojure project on github?
13:58	jayunit100	TimMc: I suggest edit your answer to clarify that the function, inspite of its ugliness, works as is.
13:59	jayunit100	andyfingerhut: i think its okay to ask slightly off topic questions sparingly.
13:59	TimMc	Ah, it does!
13:59	dnolen	andyfingerhut: all Clojure related things allowed ;)
13:59	jayunit100	TimMc: what does & do ?
14:00	AimHere	Tells the bot to evaluate it
14:00	AimHere	If you want a second opinion, use a comma instead
14:00	AimHere	,(first nil)
14:00	andyfingerhut	I forked someone else's project, committed some changes, made a pull request, they pulled them in, but they also had their own changes that aren't in my version. If I want to get up to the latest, should I delete my fork and create a new one based on their latest version, or is there a different way?
14:00	clojurebot	nil
14:00	jayunit100	sorry guys btw ....... im a hadoop developer so i never get to do any clojure and im constantly reusing variables and state... so i have a hard time getting back into clojureland.
14:02	TimMc	andyfingerhut: If you pull from upstream (their repo) into yours, you can get the changes.
14:02	mega`	andyfingerhut: your pull only needs to contain the changes you made.... are they in collition with there changes
14:02	mega`	?
14:03	andyfingerhut	TimMc: You mean in my local repo on my laptop, I do a "git pull" with some kind of additional args to indicate the pull should come from their github repo instead of my github repo?
14:04	TimMc	yep, don't remember the incantation off the top of my head
14:04	andyfingerhut	TimMc: Thanks, I'll look at some docs focused in that area. Probably need to figure out the correct remote branch name.
14:04	TimMc	git remote add upstream git://... ; git fetch upstream ; git merge upstream/master
14:05	mega`	http://gitref.org/remotes/
14:05	TimMc	those last two can probably be combined into git pull upstream master
14:05	andyfingerhut	Thanks. Those are definitely going in my own personal git cheatsheet for future reference, since I won't be doing it very often.
14:06	TimMc	I had to go into my `history` list to find that.
14:07	mega`	no github related april fools?? seen
14:08	TimMc	There's this, whatever it is: http://cloud.github.com/
14:09	mega`	pritty :P
14:10	jayunit100	how come the REPL can't evaluate a destructured list
14:10	TimMc	...but I don't know how old it is.
14:10	jayunit100	,[[head & tail] [1 2 3 4]]
14:10	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: head in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:11	mega`	jayunit100: needs to be a let statment
14:11	TimMc	jayunit100: 1) Destructuring is a thing certain macros do, such as let
14:11	TimMc	2) evaluation is done on code, not data
14:12	jayunit100	i guess 1) explains why this fails :
14:12	jayunit100	,([[head & tail] [1 2 3 4]])
14:12	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: head in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
14:12	Bronsa	.(let [[head & tail] [1 2 3 4]] [head tail])
14:12	mega`	, (let [[h & t] (range 1 5)] (inc h))
14:12	clojurebot	2
14:13	xeqi	,((fn [h & t] [h t]) [1 2 3 4])
14:13	clojurebot	[[1 2 3 4] nil]
14:13	xeqi	heh
14:13	taapa	How does one decide on Hiccup or Enlive for web app? Each has its pros & cons.
14:13	andyfingerhut	Yep, other macros are loop for doseq defn fn defmacro if-let when-let. There might be others, but those are most common places I've seen destructuring used.
14:14	mega`	https://www.google.com/intl/en/chrome/multitask.html
14:24	TimMc	taapa: Hiccup doesn't html-encode strings by default, which is kind of terrible.
14:24	TimMc	taapa: On the other hand, enlive is tricky to learn.
14:26	taapa	TimMc: thanks these are new to me. I like Enlive way of separating concern, cleaner. But just to know why people prefer Hiccup such as being the default in Noir.
14:26	gfredericks	TimMc: would there be an easy way to change hiccup so that it did?
14:26	gfredericks	I guess you could box up strings that you wanted kept raw
14:27	yoklov	taapa: personal preference matters too.
14:28	yoklov	ah, nm didn't see your 2nd message
14:28	xeqi	taapa: I think the desire to be simple wins there
14:28	xeqi	so that it is faster to get going
14:31	hhutch	taapa: personally, I think enlive vs hiccup breaks down this way...
14:31	taapa	My guess is Hiccup is an DSL, thus appealing if you want Clojure to be domain language of all your problems. But I wonder how do you code in Hiccup if you have a web designer that is not progammer.
14:31	hhutch	dev teams that consist entirely of clojure devs, or clojure devs are entirely responsible for the HTML markup, want to use hiccup
14:32	hhutch	if you are working with web designers who can produce html/css though, enlive is a dream
14:32	taapa	hhutch: thanks
14:33	hhutch	taapa: also enfocus now exists (the clojurescript version of enlive) ... which changes the landscape as well
14:33	hhutch	from what i've seen though, most ppl that use enlive also use hiccup
14:34	taapa	enfaces? will take a look.
14:34	taapa	enfocus I mean
14:34	taapa	not a bad idea to combine both I guess
14:35	hhutch	http://ckirkendall.github.com/enfocus-site/
14:35	gf3	ibdknox: yt?
14:36	taapa	hhutch: thanks for the link.
14:36	hhutch	sure
14:40	yoklov	there's also crate which is clojurescript hiccup :p
14:41	taapa	hiccup vs enlive => enfocus vs crate :(
14:42	hhutch	taapa: do you know jquery ?
14:42	taapa	hhutch: no, mainly back end
14:43	hhutch	or, are you familiar with manipulating dom elements with css selectors?
14:44	hhutch	that's all that enlive is. Also, if you ever have a need to do things like scrape html documents, enlive is very useful
14:46	taapa	hhutch: guess i have to play with them a bit first. thanks for advice.
15:21	kjellski	Why is clooj showing only my input as output?
15:24	Frozenlo`	Is there a way to create a temporary file? One that is never written to disk?
15:25	kjellski	nvm… crashed after first start… now it works as expected...
15:25	mega`	Frozenlo: you on a unix system?
15:26	Frozenlo`	No..
15:26	mk	Frozenlo`: you can write to a bytebuffer of some sort
15:27	mega`	Frozenlo: so windows?
15:27	Frozenlock	Yes, win7
15:27	mk	Frozenlock: otherwise, java allows you to create a temporary file in the system's default temp path (but this writes to disk)
15:28	Frozenlock	mk: bytebuffer seems good, assuming I can apply the same functions as for ordinary files.
15:28	mega`	Frozenlock: why a file are you going to pass it to some other program?
15:28	mega`	Frozenlock: nm
15:28	Frozenlock	I want to use https://github.com/bonega/pacl to zip some data, but it requires a file as input
15:29	mk	Frozenlock: you won't be able to treat it as a file, but you can use bufferedoutputstream etc. on it
15:30	mk	Frozenlock: "Just extracts all files from something that can be coerced into an inputstream"
15:31	mk	Frozenlock: you might want to check if the output does something similar
15:31	Frozenlock	I'll read about streams, brb :)
15:33	mk	Frozenlock: they wrap each other
15:45	Frozenlock	Ok I'm lost. How does one send data to a stream?
15:45	mk	Frozenlock: what kind of data?
15:45	Frozenlock	A map in this case
15:46	mk	Frozenlock: depends. A stream is a stream - it's linear. How are you going to stuff a map into a stream?
15:46	Frozenlock	Or rather ultimately a string (once in a file)
15:46	mk	Frozenlock: any preference? if not, what are you plotting to do?
15:46	Frozenlock	Well like I said I want to zip it.
15:47	rlb	Frozenlock: if you just mean write it so you can read it back later, you can use (binding [out stream] (prn foo)).
15:47	mk	ok, so you have some arbitrary string, and you want to turn it into an "inputstream" that the library you linked to can read
15:47	Frozenlock	Exactly.
15:48	Frozenlock	Unless of course I'm doing extra steps for nothing and there's an easier way to achieve this goal...
15:48	mk	Frozenlock: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/782178/how-do-i-convert-a-string-to-an-inputstream-in-java#782183
15:50	pedroteixeira	hello folks! in clojurescript, any tips when getting "namespace already declared"?
15:51	mk	pedroteixeira: I know nothing of this, but perhaps try to change your namespace declarations to new ones
15:51	pedroteixeira	mk: ok, thanks
15:52	mk	pedroteixeira: there are a few different functions which might do something to the namespace, so check if you're defining it with one, and then with another
15:52	rlb	Frozenlock: with-in-str?
15:53	rlb	,(doc with-in-str)
15:53	clojurebot	"([s & body]); Evaluates body in a context in which in is bound to a fresh StringReader initialized with the string s."
15:53	mk	pedroteixeira: I'm not sure how cljs implements namespaces, but another issue might be that your namespace conflicts with something js already uses, like document.Math
15:53	rlb	,(with-in-str "drinkme" (read-line))
15:53	clojurebot	"drinkme"
15:54	eiro	hello
15:54	mk	eiro: hey, welcome
15:54	eiro	thanks
15:54	rlb	or
15:54	rlb	,(with-in-str "{:a 5}" (read))
15:55	clojurebot	{:a 5}
15:55	Frozenlock	mk: Unable to resolve classname: ByteArrayInputStream :(
15:55	mk	Frozenlock: it's in the package java.io - import the package, or qualify the name :)
15:57	rlb	Frozenlock: if you're just trying to write the map, then is prn not good enough?
15:57	Frozenlock	Oh yes, it worked. Now the moment of truth ^^
15:57	Frozenlock	rlb: I really don't know... I will check what it does
15:57	mk	rlb: it needs to become an inputstream so that it can be passed to a library
15:58	rlb	mk: to a zip library?
15:58	Frozenlock	rlb: yes
15:58	mk	rlb: yep - I think it was linked above
15:59	Frozenlock	https://github.com/bonega/pacl
16:00	rlb	mk: right, I just misunderstood.
16:01	Frozenlock	Grrr... No method in multimethod 'compress' for dispatch value: class java.io.ByteArrayInputStream
16:01	mk	I think it might be possible to bind "string" to in and then pass in into the library?
16:01	Frozenlock	From the source: defmethod compress clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
16:02	mk	Frozenlock: weird. Pass ["this is a dumb way to do it"] to the function
16:03	Frozenlock	That's for me or the library? :p
16:03	mega	is it ON?
16:03	mk	Frozenlock: for the library, and because we don't know how to use the library yet :)
16:03	rlb	if you don't mind everything being in RAM, you can prn to a string, then create a reader (in) from the string via with-in-str, but I don't know if that creates a reader that the zip lib will accept.
16:03	mk	in the end that might be a bad idea but it's worth testing
16:04	mk	I guess it's trying to serialize a collection?
16:04	rlb	Of course if you want to stream to the zlib lib, that'll take a bit more work.
16:05	Frozenlock	-> [Thrown class java.lang.NullPointerException]
16:06	Frozenlock	Meh, I might be better off trying to find something else to compress. Surely I'm not the first wanting to compress data?
16:06	mk	Frozenlock: hmm. Maybe there's a better way - do you just want to zip a string into a file? Do you need to get it out later?
16:07	pedroteixeira	mk: just to let others know, upgrading to clojurescript tag r1006 fixed it
16:07	Frozenlock	Yes, but on another machine- so for now I really just need to compress it and dump it somewhere.
16:08	mk	pedroteixeira: thanks - glad you solved it
16:09	mk	will it be easier to leave it uncompressed than it will be to solve the compression issue?
16:11	Frozenlock	Sure, it would be easier.. but I don't want "easier", I want "fully working" :p
16:11	Frozenlock	And as a last resort I can print to file and then compress. However I don't like the idea of this extra file on the disk.
16:12	mk	Frozenlock: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/zip/ZipOutputStream.html
16:13	mk	Frozenlock: you could also search for 'using zipoutputstream' or somesuch
16:18	Frozenlock	http://tripoverit.blogspot.ca/2008/04/java-create-zip-file-in-memory.html This looks promising
16:19	Frozenlock	And this too :D http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2011-05-23.html
16:19	Frozenlock	Thank god for IRC logs.
16:21	rlb	Frozenlock: something like this:
16:21	rlb	?
16:21	rlb	(with-file [zip (java.util.zip.ZipOutputStream.
16:21	rlb	(clojure.java.io/output-stream "foo.zip"))]
16:21	rlb	(binding [out zip]
16:21	rlb	(prn some-map)))
16:21	rlb	s/with-file/with-open/
16:21	mk	maybe some day someone searching will see the links you posted now. zip zipping compressing how to compress file string
16:23	Frozenlock	rlb: trying now!
16:24	rlb	Oh, and I didn't test that at all (obviously) -- I just guessed...
16:25	Frozenlock	=> ZIP file must have at least one entry. The solution is near :)
16:25	Frozenlock	Give me some time, I want to try to figure this one out.
16:28	rlb	Frozenlock: certainly
16:34	autodidakto	Anyone have any thoughts about the Expectations unit testing framework? (http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/11/clojure-expectations-introduction.html)
16:39	Frozenlock	(with-open [zip (java.util.zip.ZipOutputStream.
16:39	Frozenlock	(clojure.java.io/output-stream "foo.zip"))]
16:39	Frozenlock	(-> zip (.putNextEntry (java.util.zip.ZipEntry. "foo.txt")))
16:39	Frozenlock	(binding [out zip]
16:39	Frozenlock	(prn tt)))
16:39	Frozenlock	=> java.util.zip.ZipOutputStream cannot be cast to java.io.Writer
16:39	Frozenlock	What did I miss?
16:40	rlb	Frozenlock: oh, wait -- this is a zipfile class (i.e. zip/unzip) -- I was thinking about gzip...
16:40	rlb	?
16:40	rlb	s/this is/is this/
16:40	mk	Frozenlock: you have to construct a Writer, with zipoutputstream as a parameter
16:40	rlb	i.e. zip is file based, gzip is stream based.
16:40	mk	Frozenlock: PrintWriter, for example
16:41	rlb	Oh, that -- right -- will (writer ...) handle it?
16:41	rlb	i.e. (java.io/writer (...))
16:41	Frozenlock	rlb: yes, it's a zip, not a gzip compression
16:41	rlb	as a wrapper
16:42	rlb	But that will only work if the zipoutputstream is actually a normal output stream -- and I don't actaully know that (haven't looked).
16:42	mk	rlb: what do you mean by normal?
16:43	rlb	mk: just meant something that clojure.java.io/writer can handle.
16:43	rlb	,(doc clojure.java.io/writer)
16:43	clojurebot	"([x & opts]); Attempts to coerce its argument into an open java.io.Writer. Default implementations always return a java.io.BufferedWriter. Default implementations are provided for Writer, BufferedWriter, OutputStream, File, URI, URL, Socket, and String. If the argument is a String, it tries to resolve it first as a URI, then as a local file name. URIs with a 'file' protocol are converted to local...
16:44	mk	Frozenlock: create a PrintWriter(zipstream), and use its .append() or print or println methods to write your string
16:45	rlb	Frozenlock: do you really need a zip file (as opposed to a gzip file)?
16:45	rlb	If not: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/util/zip/GZIPOutputStream.html
16:46	rlb	Which I would assume behaves more like a normal stream.
16:46	Frozenlock	rlb: yes. However I will keep this for future references, thanks ^^
16:46	mk	rlb: writer might work, since it seems to wrap outputstreams
16:46	Raynes	Frozenlock: https://github.com/Raynes/fs/blob/master/src/fs/compression.clj#L10
16:46	mk	rlb: streams are just sequences of bytes (or characters, etc)
16:48	rlb	mk: I know -- I just meant that I hadn't checked to see if zipoutputstream was a normal stream (i.e. was actually subclassed from outputstream). It is.
16:48	mk	rlb: they can be fed into the disk, or into the network, or into a byte array. From that perspective, gzip and zip are identical
16:49	rlb	And the reason I had started to wonder was because zip is an archive format, rather than just a compresion format.
16:49	mk	rlb: it's usually very safe to assume that it is - I've never seen a class ending in OutputStream that didn't extend/implement the right things
16:49	rlb	But they've obviously implemented the class as a normal outputstream.
16:49	rlb	mk: right, but since I wasn't sure, I wondered.
16:50	mk	rlb: sure, but you can implement outputstreams for archives that aren't compressed - streams are very flexible :)
16:50	mk	for example, you can create various CryptoOutputStreams with parameters, and they'll encrypt according to your public key or what have you
16:51	rlb	I know -- I just wasn't certain about that class until I actually looked at that particular class's docs.
16:51	mk	you can also attach HashOutputStreams (or Input) and feed data through them, and they'll tell you the MD5 or SHA1 of the bytes
16:52	mk	rlb: yep :) don't mind me, I'm just being overinformative
16:52	Frozenlock	Raynes: thanks, but I want to zip on-the-fly, without a prior file on the disk.
16:52	Raynes	Frozenlock: Oh, I thought you wanted to extract a zip file.
16:53	Raynes	Frozenlock: If you write something for that, please contribute it to fs.
16:53	rlb	mk: didn't know about the hash*streams.
16:53	mk	Raynes: String -> new zip file on disk
16:54	Frozenlock	Raynes: it's more like mk and rlb are writting it and I watch helplessly :P
17:00	Frozenlock	Almost! The zip-file is there, an the foo.txt inside it. However the .txt is empty
17:00	Frozenlock	(with-open [zip (java.util.zip.ZipOutputStream.
17:00	Frozenlock	(clojure.java.io/output-stream "foo.zip"))]
17:00	Frozenlock	(-> zip (.putNextEntry (java.util.zip.ZipEntry. "foo.txt")))
17:00	Frozenlock	(.append (java.io.PrintWriter. zip true) "This is a string"))
17:00	Frozenlock	...
17:00	Frozenlock	I'll find a paste site
17:03	Frozenlock	https://gist.github.com/2278682
17:10	mk	Frozenlock: hmm, try using println instead of .append?
17:11	rads	has anyone tried using node.js with the latest version of lein-cljsbuid?
17:11	Frozenlock	I tried .write, .append, .print...
17:12	Frozenlock	Of course... it works with println!
17:12	rads	I'm getting an error with clojurescript r1006 with any node.js compilation I try
17:12	Frozenlock	:D
17:12	Frozenlock	But why?
17:13	mk	Frozenlock: I don't actually know, unfortunately - random guess
17:13	mega`	rads: compiler error?
17:13	rlb	Frozenlock: you're probably not closing the stream -- i.e. println has a newline which is forcing the flush.
17:13	rads	mega`: yeah. I think it might have been fixed here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/commit/7472ab9013ad5d2b3468daabe20ba3479546f287
17:14	rads	the error I'm getting comes from dependency-order-visit
17:14	rlb	Frozenlock: you could probably also just flush the stream manually, but closing everything properly should handle it.
17:14	mk	with-open doesn't auto-close?
17:14	rads	java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Associative
17:14	mk	closing a stream will flush it, and close (and flush) any sub-streams
17:15	rads	mega`: it happens even with a blank file with just an (ns) declaration
17:18	mega`	rads: 1.2.3?
17:18	mega`	rads: 0.1.5 ?
17:18	rads	yeah
17:18	rads	node.js compilation breaks from 0.1.2 on
17:19	rads	there was another clojurescript error in the version before r1006 too
17:20	rads	so I've been using 0.1.1 for now
17:20	rads	when I use that version my code compiles and runs just fine
17:21	mega`	rads: ill test it out brb
17:25	rads	just in case this didn't send since I got disconnected: mega`: awesome! thanks. I would test it out with r1006 myself, but I don't know much about adding my own development versions of dependencies with leiningen
17:25	yoklov	anyone want to checkout a neat clojurescript page i made? http://thomcc.github.com/hex/
17:26	mk	yoklov: pretty
17:27	yoklov	haha, thanks
17:27	dnolen	yoklov: nice!
17:28	dnolen	yoklov: so you've done a CLJ and a CLJS app now :)
17:28	yoklov	haha, yup
17:28	yoklov	i've done other clj stuff but nothing that interesting (and even more stuff that never got completed)
17:29	dnolen	yoklov: well I liked dunjeon!
17:29	yoklov	dnolen: dunjeon was a lot of fun to make
17:29	mk	it runs somewhat slowly if you do randomize
17:29	yoklov	yeah
17:29	yoklov	mk: the more cells on the board, the slower it runs :/
17:30	yoklov	i use `frequencies` and sets, which… take their toll.
17:31	mk	do you precompute the next round? because if you do a timeout, and then compute, perhaps you should compute, and then timeout
17:31	yoklov	the upshot of the way i do it now is it would be trivial to change to support an infinite grid if there were a faster hashmap implementation
17:31	yoklov	hm, i hadn't thought of reordering that
17:31	dnolen	yoklov: it's nice and I imagine it will only get faster w/ time.
17:32	mk	yoklov: what do the alive and dead mean?
17:33	yoklov	mk: they're the rules, if a cell has one of the yellow numbers in `alive` neighbors and is active, it will be alive in the next round, if it has one of the numbers in `dead` and is dead, it will come to life the next round
17:33	yoklov	if that makes any sense
17:34	yoklov	dnolen: yup, that was my thinking too;
17:35	alexbaranosky	when does Clojure wrap thrown exceptions in Runtime exceptions?
17:37	yoklov	mk: no dice, still crawls after doing randomize if i reorder those
17:37	mk	so alive applies to alive cells, and is a sort of "must be these to keep alive", and dead applies to dead, and means "this many to come alive"
17:37	yoklov	yup.
17:37	yoklov	actually i think it's faster in general if i do reorder them.
17:37	mk	yoklov: you shorten the timeout based on how long the computation took, yeah?
17:38	yoklov	no. i just do a timeout every 200ms
17:38	mk	yoklov: gotcha - initially I thought that alive meant what it took to come alive, and dead meant what it took to kill ;)
17:39	yoklov	yeah, i couldn't really think of any way to describe that in only a couple words
17:39	mk	yoklov: check system time before and after the calculation. So, start timer, display, calculate next round, stop timer, subtract now from start, subtract that from 200, timeout
17:39	yoklov	right no i'm familiar
17:40	yoklov	you think it's really worth it though? it will still chug when it gets to the point that a computation takes more than 200ms
17:41	mk	yoklov: sure, why not? how long do the rounds take?
17:42	yoklov	after random? i just timed one which took nearly a second :/
17:42	amalloy	alexbaranosky: only on 1.3 - that change is reverted in 1.4
17:43	yoklov	(according to chrome dev console timelines)
17:43	mk	this hex pattern is rather pretty, and all of the combinations of alive/dead seem to produce very nice results - I'm trying nil/dead:1 now, and just starting with a dot
17:44	alexbaranosky	amalloy, thanks
17:45	yoklov	mk: that one looks very cool.
17:47	yoklov	mk: the way i do it now hteres no chance of it skipping frames, if i did it the other way i think it would skip frames but keep a more consistent tick rate
17:47	mk	yoklov: you could also pretend that each cell is 3 units... and then have 8 states in each cell to check (or each cell 7, with 2^7 states)
17:48	yoklov	well
17:48	yoklov	the way i could get the biggest benefit is by just using a 2d array for the cells
17:48	mk	...that might actually be easier than it seems, since perhaps clojure could just calculate all those state values for you
17:49	mk	yoklov: nah, I think you're right to avoid the 2d array, they're boring :)
17:49	yoklov	they are
17:50	yoklov	but if i do it your way each cell would have 3 atoms in it?
17:50	yoklov	or hm
17:56	mk	do we have the ability to stuff clojurescript into a <script> tag, and have it run?
18:02	gfredericks	mk: how would that work? send the cljs up to a compiler-service after it gets loaded in the browser?
18:03	yoklov	mk: no, the clojurescript compiler is written in clojure, and not clojurescript
18:04	mk	but... clojurescript is clojure...
18:04	gfredericks	people should stop saying that
18:04	mk	so the compiler is written in clojurescript?
18:04	yoklov	no, it's written in clojure.
18:04	yoklov	if it were in clojurescript it could bootstrap itself.
18:04	yoklov	and you could use clojurescript in a script tag.
18:05	gtrak``	mk, you can't have macros without eval, clojurescript doesn't have either
18:05	mk	yoklov: yes, exactly - like with coffeescript :)
18:05	mk	how much work would need to be done for a js compiler?
18:09	yoklov	writing it in cljs is not really a goal for performance reasons (you'd need eval, i think, which can't happen if you do closure compiling)
18:10	yoklov	and writing in js? meh. no clue, sounds _extremely_ hard
18:11	gfredericks	it can't be impossible to do it in cljs
18:11	gfredericks	compiling is just a function and cljs is turing complete...am I missing something?
18:11	gfredericks	is it just much messier?
18:12	yoklov	well, just because something is turing complete doesn't mean it can do that.
18:12	yoklov	htere are plenty of undecidable problems
18:12	yoklov	but
18:12	gtrak``	it's not impossible? clojurescript was meant to be a step forward for clojure-in-clojure, you'd need a full clojure-in-clojure to do it
18:13	yoklov	i have no idea. i think the issue is that it would suck more to do.
18:13	mk	yoklov: the set of undecidable problems for any two given turing complete things are identical
18:13	mk	yes, it would suck more
18:13	yoklov	also it would require rewriting the compiler into cljs
18:13	mk	is the compiler written in java?
18:14	yoklov	clojure!
18:14	yoklov	jvm clojure
18:14	mk	oh, well then that should convert right over to cljs...
18:15	Frozenlock	mk: I'm trying to put what I've learn earlier into a function taking optional argument (many files to zip), but I think I might have messed up with the recur. Would you mind to take a quick look? https://gist.github.com/2279100
18:15	Frozenlock	The function works if I remove the (when.... (drop 2 remain)) part and use it for a single file to zip.
18:16	amalloy	i think you want [name cont remain], not [name cont & remain]
18:17	yoklov	mk: the languages aren't the same :/. they're very close, but certainly not identical. Also, if the cljs compiler were written in cljs, compilation would be slower than it already is
18:18	Frozenlock	Wouldn't it be nil either way? (If I don't give other filename that is..)
18:19	mk	yoklov: yeah, I don't know too much about cljs. Compilation of a few lines shouldn't be too bad though
18:20	yoklov	well you'd lose macros, is a proble
18:20	Frozenlock	amalloy: you were right... thanks :)
18:21	mk	yoklov: that might be alright, as a start
18:21	yoklov	eh, i'd rather have macros than cljs-in-cljs
18:22	yoklov	though maybe you could work around that, idk.
18:22	yoklov	really i'd rather the compiler worked faster. even in its current state it's frustruating.
18:22	Frozenlock	Now I just need to find how to do the inverse... unzip on-the-fly without a file on disk.
18:22	mk	Frozenlock: I'd guess zipinputstream
18:23	Frozenlock	Indeed
18:26	rads	mega`: I tested my code with clojurescript r1006, and it seems to compile fine, so there must be something with lein-cljsbuild that breaks node.js compilation
18:30	mega`	rads: what did your test include?
18:39	muhoo	i'm complietely baffled by this ppassage in hex: https://refheap.com/paste/1634
18:39	Zoka	cemerick: CCW [0.7.0] beta looks great, no more printlns for me :)
18:39	cemerick	Zoka: :-)
18:40	cemerick	Is that what you're planning on using from here on out?
18:40	muhoo	it seems like it's calling a vector with something as an arg
18:41	muhoo	ah, vectors ara callbale, got it. nm
18:41	muhoo	callable even
18:41	Zoka	cemerick: Yes, I could not use it before due to the nREPL conflict between ringMon and CCW
18:42	cemerick	ah, right
18:42	cemerick	that shouldn't change much at all from here on out
18:43	cemerick	the easy stacking of HTTP on top has made me far more comfortable with the architecture, etc.
18:43	yoklov	muhoo: yeah
18:43	cemerick	0.2.0 is still beta, so there's lots of little details to nail down, but it seems quite solid
18:43	yoklov	that code… its a little bit hacky at poitns
18:44	Zoka	I did not have any problems so far
18:44	yoklov	(i'm happy people are looking at it though :)
18:45	Zoka	I am really glad that CCW is in good shape since Emacs is not my cup of tea :)
18:45	muhoo	it's very cool. and it's only like 150 lines of cljs loks like
18:45	cemerick	Insofar as everyone using lein2 is using nREPL, it's gotten quite a beating from a testing perspective.
18:47	Zoka	Meanwhile, they should try lein2 webrepl, that works fine. :)
18:48	muhoo	webrepl? isnt' that himera?
18:48	Zoka	No, Himera is for ClojureScript
18:49	Zoka	This is similar, but for Clojure proper
18:49	mk	in ccw, I had trouble with it not using 1.3, and I didn't like that it opened a new repl view each time, rather than having one view with numerous repls hooked into debug and console...
18:50	yoklov	muhoo: haha, yup, I usually try to be concise in my code.
18:50	yoklov	emacs 4 life!
18:51	Zoka	mk: Now lets you use whatever is in your project.clj, but you have to do m2e import of pom.xml generated by 'lein pom'
18:51	Zoka	mk: lein2 native support is comming shortly
18:52	cemerick	mk: numerous REPLs in one view? Is there another tool that works like that?
18:52	mk	Zoka: sounds excellent
18:52	mk	cemerick: the console and debug views do this (not sure about other tools...)
18:53	cemerick	oh, in Eclipse you mean
18:53	Zoka	cemirck: one man's feature is another man's bug
18:53	cemerick	Yeah, I quite dislike how the Console view in Eclipse works.
18:54	mk	cemerick: yes. It would mean that I always had to move the view to the right place whenever a new one started
18:54	muhoo	yoklov: it's very cool. though i had to do stuff like this in order to attempt to get my feeble brain around it: https://refheap.com/paste/1635
18:54	mk	cemerick: what's the problem with it? that you can't pull them apart?
18:54	cemerick	mk: they always start in the same region as where you put the last one
18:55	cemerick	I've always found the sub-view design very confusing
18:55	mk	cemerick: when I closed mine, it seemed to pick an arbitrary new position, perhaps beside console
18:55	Zoka	cemerick: you can open more than one REPL tab in CCW to the same process?
18:55	mk	cemerick: why is that?
18:56	cemerick	Zoka: sure, just connect to the same port
18:56	cemerick	I suppose a button in the REPLView to do that would be good
18:58	Zoka	cemerick: that is feature I like, since you can run some slow thing in one tab, while dion normal stuff in another.
18:58	Zoka	s /dion/doing/
18:59	Zoka	cemerick: do you remember how to switch editor in structural mode in CCW?
19:00	mk	are haskell typeclasses essentially clojure protocols?
19:03	yoklov	haskells typeclasses can also dispatch on returntype
19:03	mk	yoklov: dispatch? returntype?
19:03	amalloy	mk: "use implementation X if the caller expects an Integer, and implementation Y if they expect a String"
19:04	yoklov	err, so they're polymorphic on the function's returntype, whereas protocols are only polymorphic on the function itself
19:04	mk	ah, I see. Yes, that's right - thanks
19:05	amalloy	$heval read "5" :: Int
19:05	lazybot	⇒ 5
19:05	yoklov	so you can use `read` where something expects an integer, and it's the same as Integer/parseInt
19:05	yoklov	yeah.
19:05	yoklov	had no clue lazybot was that talented.
19:06	amalloy	there's another haskell bot in here somewhere
19:06	amalloy	> 5
19:06	amalloy	except i can't remember how to trigger him
19:06	gfredericks	amalloy: have you tried a monad?
19:07	amalloy	maybe
19:08	gfredericks	~rimshot
19:08	clojurebot	Badum, tish
19:09	mk	I decided to learn about monads a couple of days ago, and ended up having to learn a bunch of haskell...
19:10	mk	I think I'm at the point where I'm close to understanding what a monad is
19:11	yoklov	it's been a while since i did anything with them, so i might be defining this too narrowly, but iirc its just a type which helps you thread a value through some computation
19:13	mk	yoklov: that's part of it, I think, but there's also the IO part, and other things
19:13	yoklov	IO is still computation.
19:13	yoklov	though you could be right i don't recall. I remember reading about the list monad in haskell was what made them click for me.
19:13	mk	yoklov: what value do you thread through it?
19:14	yoklov	oh
19:14	yoklov	the value representing the state of the world
19:14	yoklov	brb
19:14	mk	yoklov: I've had several things click, but I don't think I get monads yet
19:16	mk	ah, right. Yeah, and haskell is affecting or acting on the state. I've read a post that was suggesting that this was the wrong way to think of it, that IO basically left a bunch of unfinished computations that were waiting for main (or something like that)
19:26	yoklov	maybe, but thats might be just because haskell has laziness to worry about
19:27	yoklov	in terms of thinking of monads in general i don't think that's a bad way to think about the specific case of IO
19:27	yoklov	i could be wrong though.
19:28	mk	the world-state idea is still a bit confusing for me, since IO gains type String, for example
19:30	yoklov	yeah, you're probably better off asking #haskell.
19:30	yoklov	err, not with a period.
19:31	jimduey_	If you're interested in monads in clojure, may I humbly suggest http://clojure.net.
19:31	yoklov	or maybe someone else here can help
19:32	gfredericks	jimduey_: that's quite a domain name there
19:32	jimduey_	Yeah, I picked it up in the very early days of Clojure.
19:34	mk	yoklov: I tend to ask there when I get stuck. I did the whole "hey guys, what's a monad" thing a couple days ago, and it went from "it's just an interface" and "when you figure out what they are, you'll think 'is that all??' " to "you need to either learn haskell, or category theory in order to understand monads" over the course of a number of minutes
19:35	jimduey_	That middle comment could very well be from me. :)
19:36	brehaut	IMO the best way to learn what a monad is is to spend time reading the code, performing reductions by hand, and writing implementations of your own
19:36	mk	jimduey_: thanks for the link - I'll read through the monads-in-clojure page
19:37	jimduey_	mk: feel free to shoot me any questions you might have.
19:37	mk	brehaut: yeah, but that's also the slowest way, and requires you to be proficient in a monady language haskell
19:37	brehaut	mk: it does not
19:38	brehaut	i learn monads by writing implementations in javascript and python
19:38	brehaut	s/learn/learnt/
19:38	mk	jimduey_: thanks
19:39	mk	brehaut: any examples that were particularly enlightening? (I know js but not python)
19:39	brehaut	mk: id start of trying to write an identity monad, and then a maybe
19:40	mk	brehaut: I think I've done both, though I'm unsure if they meet the various criteria and functions associated with monads
19:44	yoklov	mk: if they say you need to understand cat. theory or haskell they're wrong
19:46	brehaut	mk https://refheap.com/paste/1640
19:46	brehaut	rough around the edges, but IdentityM and MaybeM in JS
19:46	mk	yoklov: I figured, but I don't know if the thing that will make people grok monads exists
19:47	brehaut	the thing to make you grok monads is to put in the work to grok monads
19:48	mk	brehaut: definitely - but definitions of "work" vary, from "learn haskell or category theory" to "just think of it as an interface in java"
19:49	brehaut	learning category theory is about as far away from learning monads for function programming as you can get :P
19:50	brehaut	and re haskell: any language with closures is a suitable enviroment for learning about monadic constructions
19:50	brehaut	haskells syntax just happens to make it much less painful to write large pieces of monadic code
19:52	mk	brehaut: introduce corresponds to "return", I take it
19:52	brehaut	yes
19:52	mk	I'm still hazy on the equivalence of bind with fmap and join
19:53	brehaut	for two reasons: a) return is a reserved word b) i think introduce is slightly clearer name for it when you are learning: it introduces a value into the monadic context
19:53	justin1	what's the easiest way to sort a map a custom order of its keys? ie I have a map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} and I want to get a sorted map ordered {:b :c :a}?
19:53	brehaut	(ie, theres less semantic overloading with what most programmers think return does)
19:55	jimduey_	justin1: Depends on what you want. If you want a sequence of the key value pairs from a map once, use a variant of 'sort'.
19:55	jimduey_	If you want an actual map that will always return the values in a sorted order, use a sorted map.
19:55	jimduey_	You can specify the comparator to sort with in both instances.
19:56	mk	justin1: what jimduey_ said, and have a look at sorted-map-by. You might also find http://clojure.org/cheatsheet useful
19:56	jimduey_	brehaut: Nothing turns the light on for monads like actually working with them at the REPL.
19:56	brehaut	jimduey_: absolutely
19:57	justin1	thanks guys, I'm just wondering if there's a quick way to build make a comparator to return a specific, arbitrary order based on the keys
19:57	mk	jimduey_: "A monadic function is a function that accepts a value and returns a monadic value" - can the value be itself a monadic value, and does a monadic function count as a monadic value?
19:57	brehaut	jimduey_: although for state-m i found a simple example and then did all the reductions by hand on paper
19:57	jimduey_	And implementing a couple is a great exercise if you have the patience.
19:58	mk	jimduey_: by the value, I mean the value that is accepted
19:59	jimduey_	mk: The value passed in can be any value, even a monadic value. But in that case, it's treated like any other value. Nothing special happens just because it's a monadic value.
19:59	jimduey_	And a monadic function does not count as a monadic value.
20:00	jimduey_	Though in some monads, monadic values are functions. They are different than monadic functions in those monads. Which is where some of the confusion comes in.
20:00	jimduey_	I try to untangle that in some later posts.
20:00	mk	jimduey_: I take it that this is because it is unwrapped before being given to the Monad-wrapped function (my thoughts are burrito-explanation flavoured here)
20:02	jimduey_	If I get your question correctly, the answer is no. Any value passed to a monadic function is just used as is, there is no unwrapping. But the function returns a monadic value.
20:05	mk	supposing that 1,[1] -> [2] (this is just addition within a monad), what sort of function will allow [1][1]->[2]?
20:05	brehaut	well bind only takes a unary function, so you need to partial your addition
20:05	brehaut	and then wrap it up in a return
20:06	brehaut	so that it returns a monadic value
20:06	jimduey_	Yeah, a monadic function by definition only accepts a single parameter.
20:06	brehaut	that operation of taking a non monadic function and making it return a monadic value is called lifting
20:09	brehaut	mk, i mucked up my bind definitions above
20:09	mk	how far above?
20:10	brehaut	mk in the refheap paste
20:10	brehaut	mk, bind: function (f) { return (this.v !== null) ? f(this.v) : new MaybeM(null); }
20:11	brehaut	mk: and usage would be new MaybeM(1).bind(function (v) { return new MaybeM(v + 1); }).v
20:11	mk	you removed the monad wrapper around the returned value?
20:11	brehaut	thats correct
20:11	mk	are you sure that's right?
20:12	brehaut	yes
20:12	mk	but then bind doesn't return a monadic value
20:12	brehaut	exactly
20:12	brehaut	well
20:12	brehaut	sort of
20:12	brehaut	it does because the function passed to it does
20:14	mk	yes I see
20:14	brehaut	the type of the function bind takes is a -> m a
20:16	mk	one of the confusing things about monads is how bind can be seen either as taking a monadic value and a monadic function, returning a monadic value; or as taking a monadic value, and returning a function with a closure that takes functions and spits out the prior-mentioned result value
20:17	jimduey_	yeah, I can see how that's confusing when you first see monads. I typically only focus on the 1st perspective.
20:24	gfredericks	,(prn (keyword "foo (System/exit)"))
20:24	clojurebot	:foo (System/exit)
21:00	Frozenlock	Is there a way to put a default file name in (choose-file) in the seesaw library?
21:08	jasox	Need help people, can not configure slime to work with emacs24. Please can someone tell me what is easiest way to configure slime with emacs. If someone have links for useful dot files. ANYTHON !! Thanks
21:09	bpr	does ring.middleware.wrap-file follow symlinks?
21:09	mega`	jasox: w8 for link
21:10	Raynes	w8? wait?
21:10	mega`	Raynes: yea dont play games much? :D
21:10	Raynes	Please don't do that unless you're typing on a keyboard in klingon and you don't know how to spell 'wait' on it.
21:11	mega`	jasox: http://marmalade-repo.org/packages/starter-kit
21:11	autodidakto	Raynes: omglol
21:11	Raynes	rofl
21:11	autodidakto	Raynes: you're complaing about w8? srsly?
21:11	Raynes	yarly
21:11	weavejester	bpr: The easiest way is to check it out, I think. It should do… because it just uses the normal Java I/O libraries.
21:11	mega`	Raynes: where in a chat this is absolutly the playes for w8, brb, etc ....
21:12	jasox	Yeah I instelled it. But can not configure it. What should I add in .emacs
21:12	jasox	Official tutorial is not working for me :/
21:12	Raynes	Yikes.
21:12	weavejester	mega`: I'm trying to decide if you're doing an april-fools :)
21:12	Raynes	Yeah, I'm thinking he is. At least, I'll sleep better tonight if I think that.
21:13	mega`	jasox: create a .emacs.d directory
21:13	mega`	jasox: and make init.el file
21:13	mega`	jasox: o w8 i think 24 alreddy has package.el
21:13	bpr	weavejester: It looks like it doesn't.
21:13	jasox	and ?
21:14	autodidakto	weavejester, Raynes: stop being a h8ter
21:14	Raynes	kk
21:14	autodidakto	as mega said, he's absolutely the playa
21:14	jasox	mega`, it has
21:14	mega`	jasox: so M-x and package-list-packages
21:15	mega`	jasox: and C-s to search for clojure-mode
21:15	mega`	jasox: press x to select the package for instalation
21:15	jasox	k
21:15	mega`	jasox: i mean i to select it and x to install
21:16	mega`	jasox: get the test mode and clojurescript while your att it
21:16	jasox	"get the test mode and clojurescript while your att it" - don't get it
21:17	mega`	jasox: u can select multiple packages for install
21:17	jasox	k
21:20	mega`	jasox: when your done whit that you need to get the swank-clojure plugin for leiningen
21:28	jasox	mega`, ok what should I do then.
21:29	mega`	jasox: you have lein installed?
21:29	jasox	yes
21:29	mega`	jasox: and swank-clojure?
21:30	yoklov	how can i get a more, uh, useful string version (or print one out) of a structure in cljs? right now the best i've got in most cases is [object Object]
21:30	jasox	mega`, yes
21:30	mega`	jasox: then navigate to your project
21:30	mega`	jasox: and use M-x clojure-jack-in
21:31	jasox	WOW, finally. Thank you mega`
21:32	timvisher	hey kids
21:32	timvisher	can anyone point me to the rationale behind clojure's lack of support for currying?
21:32	amalloy	timvisher: varargs
21:32	mega`	timvisher: there the partial function
21:33	timvisher	mega`: completely aware of that. That's not really currying in the Haskell sense.
21:33	timvisher	amalloy: that's the rationale? as in JVM varargs?
21:34	amalloy	no, as in clojure varargs
21:34	amalloy	how do you curry the + function? it takes any number of args
21:34	timvisher	gotcha
21:34	yoklov	timvisher: think about things like zipWith3 in haskell.
21:34	yoklov	you don't need ugliness like that in clojure.
21:34	timvisher	yoklov: i actually have no experience with Haskell ;)
21:34	yoklov	(as a result, you hava ugliness in partial application)
21:34	yoklov	ah
21:34	timvisher	but I'll take your word for it
21:34	amalloy	yoklov: it's an ugliness tradeoff, yeah
21:34	autodidakto	Clojure vs Haskell, as well as currying, also comes out in difference over pattern matching
21:35	timvisher	it's quite obvious once you state it that way
21:35	amalloy	autodidakto: well, that's a feature that can be added on top of what clojure already has
21:36	xeqi	autodidakto: core.match is pretty good
21:36	mk	clojure functions that take varargs can be thought of as taking lists, instead
21:37	yoklov	mk: doesn't solve the problem though, because during partial application they aren't taking a list
21:37	autodidakto	xeqi: ah yes. I've been meaning to check that you
21:37	autodidakto	amalloy: how would you go about it?
21:38	amalloy	i'd probably just ask dnolen to do it
21:38	amalloy	and then he'd be like "oh, i already did, mate, it's in core.match"
21:38	amalloy	assuming that for april fools he fakes an australian accent
21:38	mk	yoklov: the cases of partial application on vararg fns that I can think of involve the non-vararg parts (as if you're initializing the function) - is partial application of varargs common?
21:39	yoklov	,(map (partial + 5) [1 2 3])
21:39	autodidakto	amalloy: kangaroo.match maybe, hehe heh
21:39	clojurebot	(6 7 8)
21:39	autodidakto	,(+ 5 [1 2 3])
21:39	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.lang.Number>
21:40	autodidakto	oh duh, map
21:40	yoklov	thats usually when i use partial application
21:41	autodidakto	yoklov: as a short/simple-function-like-shortcut?
21:41	yoklov	yeah
21:41	autodidakto	,(map #(+ %) [1 2 3])
21:41	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
21:41	autodidakto	deer
21:41	yoklov	or if i want to express somethign iin a snooty way
21:41	autodidakto	,(map #(+ 5 %) [1 2 3])
21:41	clojurebot	(6 7 8)
21:41	yoklov	,(map (partial map +) [[1 2] [3 4]] [[5 6] [7 8]])
21:41	clojurebot	((6 8) (10 12))
21:42	autodidakto	head explodes
21:42	mk	yoklov: yeah somewhat, though you might as well think of add as (+ a b list-goes-here)
21:42	yoklov	lol, think of (partial map +) as `point-add`
21:42	autodidakto	that's snooty. did you type that with your pinky fingers in the air?
21:42	yoklov	yeah.
21:43	yoklov	,(map (partial + 1 2 3) [4 5])
21:43	clojurebot	(10 11)
21:44	yoklov	mk: varargs and currying just don't mix well
21:44	mk	,(map (partial + 6) [4 5])
21:44	clojurebot	(10 11)
21:44	mk	I agree, but I'm not sure I'm a fan of either
21:44	yoklov	right, but you can only do that because you know that (+ a b c … rst) is the same as (+ (+ a b c) … rst)
21:45	yoklov	thats certainly not true in every case.
21:46	mk	+ is a pretty good case for varargs, but it's really just (sum [1 2 3...])
21:46	mega`	&(doc sum) ; dont think whe have sum
21:46	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: sum in this context
21:47	mega`	mk: so yea + is the sum
21:47	brehaut	sum is (apply + …)
21:47	yoklov	it's just apply +
21:47	Raynes	Or (reduce +)
21:47	yoklov	(partial apply +) :p
21:47	yoklov	(or reduce)
21:47	Raynes	#(apply + %)
21:47	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
21:47	mk	the reason I don't like varargs is that they are placed in arbitrary places in some of our functions (like in the middle), and some functions take lists when they may as well take varargs
21:48	autodidakto	,((partial apply +) '(1 2 3))
21:48	clojurebot	6
21:48	mega`	mk: in the midle?? what
21:48	Raynes	In the middle of a gunfight.
21:48	mk	mega`: yeah, let me find it...
21:49	autodidakto	Raynes: Never bring a vararg knife to the middle of a curry gunfight
21:49	autodidakto	at least that's my understanding
21:49	amalloy	btw, since we're discussing apply vs reduce, my favorite explanatory tool is ##((juxt apply reduce) (partial list '+) (range 5))
21:49	lazybot	⇒ [(+ 0 1 2 3 4) (+ (+ (+ (+ 0 1) 2) 3) 4)]
21:50	yoklov	mk: i really wouldn't want to part with vararg map.
21:50	autodidakto	,(doc juxt)
21:50	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
21:50	amalloy	yeah, god help us if we had zipWith5 in the language. blech
21:51	mk	the best way to explain apply on its own, I think, is as injecting the given function into the front of the given list. It's an injector.
21:51	brehaut	amalloy: (partial list '+) (range 5) is cute, but why not just (list* '+ (range 5)) ?
21:51	amalloy	uhhh
21:51	amalloy	because that doesn't illustrate the point?
21:51	yoklov	mk: well but then it gets hairy, because some languages (ruby, for one) call reduce inject :p
21:51	yoklov	smalltalk too i think.
21:52	amalloy	the point is that reduce and apply do different things; i'm not just calling ((partial list '+) (range 5))
21:52	Raynes	That's because it was named by a Japanese guy.
21:52	mega`	yoklov: .net cals it Aggregate
21:52	yoklov	right but he said it was injecting… yeah nevermind
21:52	brehaut	oh right
21:52	autodidakto	yoklov: inject is the more common synonym, but i like reduce is an alias to the method
21:52	autodidakto	*but i think reduce is
21:52	Raynes	That's because .NET was created by suits with no human bodies inside.
21:52	mk	yoklov: map throws the varargs as params, so initially that looked fine - but then - have you used map to map into vararg functions? because that sounds interesting
21:52	autodidakto	Raynes: Report to HR, immediately
21:53	yoklov	mk, you mean like my example above?
21:53	yoklov	,(map (partial map +) [[1 2] [3 4]] [[5 6] [7 8]])
21:53	clojurebot	((6 8) (10 12))
21:53	amalloy	&(apply map vector [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
21:53	lazybot	⇒ ([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
21:53	yoklov	oh thats neat.
21:53	amalloy	~zip
21:53	clojurebot	zip is not necessary in clojure, because map can walk over multiple sequences, acting as a zipWith. For example, (map list '(1 2 3) '(a b c)) yields ((1 a) (2 b) (3 c))
21:54	autodidakto	head explodes
21:55	autodidakto	oh right right, when given multiple lists/vectors/maps.. map takes one from each at a time..
21:55	mk	right, yeah - those are in fact interesting
21:56	mega`	, (map + (range 0 4) (range 0 8))
21:56	clojurebot	(0 2 4 6)
21:57	autodidakto	and stops when the shortest list ends...
21:57	mk	autodidakto: it takes all of the first elements in all of the given collections, and then shoves them into the given function as params (and then the second elements, then third...)
21:57	mk	,(apply map vector [1 2] {:a 8 :b 9})
21:57	clojurebot	([1 :a :b] [2 8 9])
21:57	autodidakto	mk: I see. thanks
21:58	autodidakto	but what's that apply do?
21:58	autodidakto	,(map vector [1 2] {:a 8 :b 9})
21:58	clojurebot	([1 [:a 8]] [2 [:b 9]])
21:58	autodidakto	hmm
21:58	xeqi	,((partial map vector [1 2]) {:a 8 :b 9})
21:58	clojurebot	([1 [:a 8]] [2 [:b 9]])
21:58	mega`	&(doc apply)
21:58	lazybot	⇒ "([f args] [f x args] [f x y args] [f x y z args] [f a b c d & args]); Applies fn f to the argument list formed by prepending intervening arguments to args."
21:59	mk	I like to imagine them as.. dropping down, so [1 2 3 4] becomes vertical, and them map runs the function down this vertical strip. When given varargs, they all just roll down vertically
22:00	autodidakto	,(map str [1a 2a 3a] [1b 2b 3b])
22:00	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 1a>
22:01	mk	oh, apply is the one that takes varargs in the middle
22:01	autodidakto	,(map str ["1a" "2a" "3a"] ["1b" "2b" "3b"])
22:01	clojurebot	("1a1b" "2a2b" "3a3b")
22:01	amalloy	no it doesn't
22:01	mega`	mk: only the last one has varargs
22:01	mk	could be wrong, I'll check
22:02	autodidakto	scroll up to the last lazybot
22:03	mk	it lies
22:03	mk	,(apply vector 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 9 '(99 999))
22:03	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
22:03	amalloy	okay...
22:04	mk	you can put an arbitrary number of arguments into the middle, and they are all injected into "args"
22:04	amalloy	i mean, i guess i see what you mean by varargs in the middle, there
22:05	mk	what's described as "args" can actually only be one argument. If you try to apply into an apply, you'll end up applying... I'm going to cut that sentence off there
22:06	mega`	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L596
22:07	mk	apply is what you pull out when you want to use a list as varargs
22:07	mega`	&(doc spread)
22:07	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve var: spread in this context
22:07	TimMc	mega`: That's private, I think.
22:07	mega`	yea
22:08	TimMc	&(meta #'clojure.core/spread)
22:08	lazybot	⇒ {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name spread, :arglists ([arglist]), :private true, :static true, :line 574, :file "clojure/core.clj"}
22:08	TimMc	...and doesn't have :doc anyhow.
22:09	mk	it's two functions up in that link above
22:09	amalloy	spread is just list*, iirc
22:09	amalloy	except that it's a primitive used to define functions like apply and list*
22:09	amalloy	&(#'clojure.core/spread 1 2 [3 4])
22:09	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (3) passed to: core$spread
22:10	mega`	takes a seq directly
22:10	amalloy	right, it's (partial apply list*)
22:10	amalloy	&(#'clojure.core/spread [1 2 [3 4]])
22:10	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
22:10	amalloy	&((partial apply list*) [1 2 [3 4]])
22:10	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4)
22:13	autodidakto	amalloy: can you give me another clue to understanding apply?
22:13	mk	apply is kinda like a cons that gets evaluated
22:13	scriptor	autodidakto: what other languages do you know?
22:14	mk	,(cons '+ '(1 2 3))
22:14	clojurebot	(+ 1 2 3)
22:14	autodidakto	scriptor: ruby
22:14	mega`	, (eval (cons '+ '(1 2 3)))
22:14	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
22:14	scriptor	hmm, not sure about the equivalent of apply in ruby
22:14	mk	(eval (cons '+ '(1 2 3)))
22:14	mega`	:(
22:15	mk	hmm
22:15	mk	> 6
22:15	scriptor	autodidakto: in a sense, apply is like ruby's send, except that it works on functions, not methods
22:15	mega`	:D
22:15	amalloy	scriptor: it's like ruby's splat operator
22:15	mk	(apply + '(1 2 3))
22:16	amalloy	(apply f a b c) => f(a, b, *c)
22:16	scriptor	yes, that too
22:16	autodidakto	hmm
22:17	scriptor	splat + higher order func
22:17	mk	autodidakto: at first think of apply as taking two arguments - a function, and a list
22:18	mk	it puts the function at the front of the list, and then runs away (the new list is evaluated, as a list usually would be)
22:19	mk	alternatively, if you have a function and it's missing a bunch of arguments, apply removes the brackets from that list, and puts them at the end of the function
22:20	mk	apply fun '( 1 2 3) -> eval'd(fun 1 2 3)
22:20	autodidakto	,(str '(1 2 3))
22:20	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
22:20	autodidakto	,(apply str '(1 2 3))
22:20	clojurebot	"123"
22:20	mk	,(str 1 2 3)
22:20	clojurebot	"123"
22:21	mk	in your first expression, you gave a list to str, but it expects varargs
22:22	mk	apply is for turning any function that takes varargs into the same function, but taking a list
22:23	autodidakto	using the individual items of the list as it's arguments?
22:23	autodidakto	*its
22:23	mk	yep
22:24	mk	varargs can be thought of as being a list anyway
22:24	autodidakto	"alternatively, if you have a function and it's missing a bunch of arguments, apply removes the brackets from that list, " is this what amalloy was talking about with the splat operator?
22:25	scriptor	autodidakto: more or less
22:25	amalloy	i don't want to be held responsible for any description of apply that makes it sound like it's manipulating source forms like brackets
22:26	mk	right - keep in mind that's not what it actually does. But when you're looking at something like...
22:26	scriptor	yes, don't really think about it in terms of shuffling parentheses around, it takes the function f and uses the elements of the list as its arguments
22:27	mk	,(str '(1 2 3))
22:27	clojurebot	"(1 2 3)"
22:28	scriptor	autodidakto: what don't you still get?
22:29	mk	and you mess around with it and you find that (str 1 2 3) works just fine... well, the diff between the two is a pair of brackets. So you use apply
22:31	autodidakto	,(map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
22:31	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
22:31	autodidakto	,(apply map vector [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
22:31	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
22:31	autodidakto	I'm trying to see how apply, like, went into the outter [vector]
22:32	mk	,(map vector [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
22:32	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
22:32	autodidakto	oh, by putting map inside it...?
22:32	mk	,(apply map vector '( [1 2 3] [4 5 6]))
22:32	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
22:32	mk	by putting both map and vector inside it
22:33	autodidakto	that would be the same as the "<mk> apply fun '( 1 2 3) -> eval'd(fun 1 2 3)" thing you said
22:33	scriptor	autodidakto: with your second expression, you're telling apply, "take the function map, and pass it 'vector' as the first argument, and [1 2 3] and [4 5 6] as the 2 and 3rd arguments"
22:34	autodidakto	scriptor: ah. that helps too
22:34	mk	the vararg thing is why I think it's easier to think of apply as shoving all the left-side arguments into the single right-side list
22:35	mk	(apply list 1 '(22) 3 '(4))
22:35	mk	,(apply list 1 '(22) 3 '(4))
22:35	clojurebot	(1 (22) 3 4)
22:36	mk	,(list 1 '(22) 3 , 4)
22:36	clojurebot	(1 (22) 3 4)
22:36	autodidakto	could you say that apply is a way to "prepare" the arguments for a given function?
22:36	yoklov	autodidakto, sort of
22:37	yoklov	so i don't know if clojure does it this way
22:37	autodidakto	though by the name "apply", i guess it would be the other way around
22:37	yoklov	however typically
22:37	yoklov	evaluators are made up of two runctions
22:37	yoklov	`eval` and `apply`
22:37	scriptor	autodidakto: there's no 'preparing' done, it's about applying a given function to a list of arguments
22:37	yoklov	apply takes a function and a list of arguments, and applies the function to the arguments
22:37	scriptor	or a vector of args
22:37	yoklov	and eval uses apply to eval everything
22:38	yoklov	so, when you type (apply foo '(bar baz)) it gets evaluated the same as (foo 'bar 'baz)
22:38	mk	autodidakto: you can think of it that way, because it's equivalent to how it's done, but not actually how it's done. Also, in (apply f :a :b '(1)), :a :b are arguments, too
22:39	yoklov	oh right, apply in clojure does that.
22:40	yoklov	right, and apply just calls .applyTo on the function
22:40	yoklov	with the args made into a list
22:41	mk	autodidakto: do you have a good handle on the two-parameter apply? where it's just a function and a list (or vector, or seq)?
22:42	autodidakto	mk: good enough I think
22:42	autodidakto	in that case i think "I have a list, but now I want to use the items in that list as my arguments"
22:43	mk	,(apply list :a :b [3 4])
22:43	clojurebot	(:a :b 3 4)
22:44	mk	,(apply (partial list :a :b) [3 4])
22:44	clojurebot	(:a :b 3 4)
22:44	mk	that's how the multi-param version of apply works (or another way to think of it)
22:45	autodidakto	in that first apply, how does it "know" to open up the vector?
22:45	autodidakto	(apply list :a :b [3 4] [5 6])
22:45	autodidakto	,(apply list :a :b [3 4] [5 6])
22:45	clojurebot	(:a :b [3 4] 5 6)
22:46	mk	autodidakto: it's the last argument
22:47	autodidakto	i see
22:47	autodidakto	,(apply (partial list :a :b) [3 4] [5 6])
22:47	clojurebot	(:a :b [3 4] 5 6)
22:47	mk	,(apply (partial (partial list :a :b) [3 4]) [5 6])
22:47	clojurebot	(:a :b [3 4] 5 6)
22:48	mk	,(apply (partial list :a :b [3 4]) [5 6])
22:48	clojurebot	(:a :b [3 4] 5 6)
22:48	mk	there's apply, then there's the stuff in the middle, and then there's the last item
22:49	mk	the stuff in the middle is the function and its first few params
22:51	autodidakto	Is there an easy way to describe the situation in which apply is needed and a simple (fn arg1 arg2) wouldn't work?
22:51	mk	you have a list, and you need to use that list inside a function that takes varargs
22:52	autodidakto	with the list as it's varargs? or all it's args?
22:52	autodidakto	*its
22:53	mk	as its varargs
22:53	mk	,(+ '(1 2 3))
22:53	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException>
22:53	mk	,(apply + '(1 2 3))
22:53	clojurebot	6
22:54	autodidakto	gotcha
22:54	mk	(obviously if you were typing this in, you would just remove the brackets in the first case, but '(1 2 3) is meant to stand in for a symbol)
22:55	autodidakto	i'll start looking around for examples of apply in use and think about what's going.
22:56	autodidakto	mk, scriptor, amalloy: thanks for the tutoring :)
22:57	mk	np. The only thing you need to know about apply is that if you have a list, and a vararg function, you can use apply
22:57	autodidakto	ah, yoklov too
22:57	mk	...apply could have been averted if none of our functions used varargs :P
22:58	yoklov	haha, no clue if i helped at all :p
22:58	yoklov	mk: you'd still need it in eval
22:58	mk	yoklov: yeah yeah :)
22:58	scriptor	no prob, eventually you'll find a place where apply will come in handy and it'll all click
22:59	autodidakto	mk: does that have something to do you with rant about varargs?
23:00	autodidakto	yoklov: I was intrigued about what you said about evaluators using eval/apply. I'm remembering the logo of the videos for the SICP book (which i havent finished cough)... the wizard with Eval/Apply in his crystal ball
23:00	yoklov	oh yeah
23:00	yoklov	exactly that.
23:00	yoklov	you should finish that. sicp is amazing :)
23:01	autodidakto	yoklov: the math-based examples make me squint at the screen
23:01	mk	autodidakto: yes. It also has to do with that part about varargs being in the middle, because that fun application of apply that you started with is... hard to start with
23:01	mk	,(apply map vector [[1 2 3] [4 5 6]])
23:01	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
23:01	yoklov	hah, the math in that book is a killer.
23:02	yoklov	regardless what i'm talking about was chapter 4
23:02	autodidakto	yoklov: cool. I'll look it up
23:02	autodidakto	mk: i see
23:03	mk	...I just realized why ,(+ 1 2) works in my repl even though it has a weird symbol at the very front
23:06	scriptor	isn't , treated the same as whitespace?
23:06	mk	yes.
23:07	autodidakto	,(doc ,str)
23:07	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & ys]); With no args, returns the empty string. With one arg x, returns x.toString(). (str nil) returns the empty string. With more than one arg, returns the concatenation of the str values of the args."
23:07	mk	"cool, my repl accepts the same special initial symbols as clojurebot - that's pretty convenient for pasting"
23:08	scriptor	autodidakto: don't need the , before str
23:08	mk	, is whitespace
23:08	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: is in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
23:09	autodidakto	right right, just confirming your point
23:10	autodidakto	yoklov: SICP is really quotable -> It is no exaggeration to regard this as the most fundamental idea in programming: The evaluator, which determines the meaning of expressions in a programming language, is just another program. To appreciate this point is to change our images of ourselves as programmers. We come to see ourselves as designers of languages, rather than only users of languages designed by others.
23:11	yoklov	haha, sicp is really amazing. chapter 4 is my favorite :)
23:11	mk	,(apply apply apply map vector [[[[1 2 3] [4 5 6]]]])
23:12	clojurebot	([1 4] [2 5] [3 6])
23:13	autodidakto	mk: ouch, thanks :)
23:15	muhoo	autodidakto: then what about people who design languages for designers of languages?
23:16	autodidakto	muhoo: they sit in the lotus position, hovering 3 feet off the floor
23:17	muhoo	or in a hammock.
23:17	autodidakto	muhoo: taking the year off
23:18	muhoo	"In a hammock, nobody knows you're not sleeping." -- Rich Hickey
23:18	autodidakto	Which really sums up clojure development.... I think
23:20	autodidakto	There needs to be a comic of him lying in a hammock, taking the year off, and braiding his hair... hmm what other memes can i shove in there...
23:26	autodida	muhoo: Is there an online collection of rhickey quotes taken wonderfully out of context?
23:30	arohner	is there an an await that works for future?
23:32	mk	autodida: you might try searching the logs at http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
23:32	amalloy	arohner: isn't that just...deref?
23:33	Raynes	Or download all of the logs from raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure and grep them.
23:33	arohner	amalloy: I was thinking await did something it didn't, which is block on all agents (i.e. without listing them)
23:33	arohner	I'm writing some tests, and I'd like the test to block until all futures are finished, but I'd like to not explicitly list them
23:35	autodida	according to clojure, rhickey hasn't been seen since 08?
23:35	Raynes	$seen rhicky
23:35	lazybot	I have never seen rhicky.
23:35	Raynes	$seen rhickey
23:35	lazybot	rhickey was last seen joining on clojure 1 week and 6 days ago.
23:35	muhoo	wow, didn't know he used to be ini this channel.
23:35	Raynes	muhoo: He used to talk on this channel a lot.
23:35	muhoo	2010, looks like
23:35	TimMc	He pops in with announcements every once in a while.
23:36	Raynes	Guys. 1 week, 6 days ago.
23:36	TimMc	Raynes: "joining"
23:36	Raynes	Yes, but he was here.
23:36	Raynes	It's fair that he doesn't join very often though. With 400+ users every day, it can get a little hairy.
23:36	slyrus	but he went out
23:37	TimMc	I remember him coming in and asking naming advice for what ended up being called "realized?"
23:37	mk	there's actually a secret channel where all the oldhats talk about things
23:37	TimMc	I can see why he doesn't show up much.
23:37	muhoo	i'm sure there is a backchannel still.
23:37	technomancy	mk: it's called irc.thinkrelevance.com
23:37	muhoo	hehehe
23:40	muhoo	well i'm sure linus doesn't hang around in #linux
23:41	muhoo	nor guido in #python, etc etc
23:41	autodidakto	linus: my sounds card breaks the drivers, what's with that?
23:43	muhoo	he was, however, active on the lkml for a long time, may still be even, i dunno.
23:44	mk	many of the channels for more popular languages are pretty much tech support. Nobody stays around for long enough for there to be a productive community
23:45	autodidakto	mk: do the tech support conversations swamp the deeper ones? or?
23:46	muhoo	i've seen people in #debian and #emacs who've been there over a decade though.
23:46	brehaut	they are all weighed down by their beards. they literally could not leave, even if they wanted to
23:47	mk	it's encouraging to see new users (especially when they're using your clojure libs), but devs start to leave if there's too much noise
23:47	muhoo	brehaut: that is awesome. thank you for that.
23:49	autodidakto	beards stuck under those old school loud, big-key keyboards
23:49	autodidakto	10 years of tech support is enough to grey a beard, though
23:51	muhoo	autodidakto: http://www.flickr.com/photos/two_pi_r/264672521/
23:52	technomancy	nobody talks about Emacs in #emacs though, so that's different
23:52	technomancy	it's mostly politics and bot abuse
23:53	autodidakto	muhoo: hehe yeah
23:53	brehaut	technomancy: emacs is now sufficiently intelligent that it can maintain political discourse and nobody notices?
23:53	brehaut	im not sure if that says more for emacs, or political debate
23:54	technomancy	brehaut: M-x no-u
23:55	brehaut	i cant tell if thats a joke i havent got, or if an emacs package i havent got
23:56	technomancy	political "debate" these days consist mostly of "no, YOU're the one who is wrong!!!oneone"
23:56	technomancy	so it's easy to automate, I guess?
23:56	brehaut	ah. lol
23:56	brehaut	heh yeah
23:56	brehaut	hidden markov model ?
23:56	brehaut	or just random
23:56	technomancy	brehaut: oh man
23:56	brehaut	its not like either party is actually listening to each other
23:56	technomancy	just ask rudybot about pretty much anything
23:56	technomancy	it's reminiscent of talk show radio
23:56	brehaut	lol
23:57	brehaut	is that a #emacs bot?
23:57	technomancy	yeah, he picks a random unlikely word from your line and searches his logs for a line that matches
23:57	technomancy	it's hilarious how often it almost makes sens
23:57	technomancy	e
23:57	brehaut	haha
23:58	autodidakto	sounds like some kind of post-apocolyptic dystopia... uncaring robots have taken over.
23:59	brehaut	id rather the uncaring robots than any american political faction
23:59	autodidakto	talk show radio -> Rush Limbot
23:59	brehaut	the robots are at least logical
23:59	muhoo	politics for me is a particularly insidious form of bikeshedding