#clojure – 2012-03-22

2012-03-22

00:05	gfredericks	I think there's something about (def foo #'bar)?
00:10	brehaut	#' is var quote; #' is equivalent to (var bar)
00:11	brehaut	if you quote the var, you get the var itself rather than whatever it points to
00:11	brehaut	so if the var is updated (eg, by def) then anything calling through that var gets the new version
00:11	brehaut	yes
01:35	y3di	how do you go about finding a mentor?
02:14	coltnz	hi can anyone suggest the idiomatic way to prevent this:
02:14	coltnz	user[9]: (apply str/trim []) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: string$trim
02:16	ivan	coltnz: how many items can your vector have?
02:16	coltnz	well it can have 0+ and its the zero bit thats the problem
02:17	ivan	(user=> (map clojure.string/trim ["hey " " hi"])
02:17	ivan	("hey" "hi")
02:17	ivan	and really? it doesn't take more than 1 arg here
02:18	coltnz	hmm maybe i do want map
02:45	Raynes	You do.
02:56	rudyl313	is (def ^{:private true} sym "val") the only way to make the sym symbol namespace private?
05:22	muhoo	(= fun-fun-fun (reduce + [clojure incanter couchdb clutch]))
05:22	clgv	muhoo: what are you doing?
05:27	amalloy	aw, (apply + ...) is surely more appropriate here
05:27	amalloy	you're not adding pairwise, you're throwing them all into a big pot and stirring
05:28	alcy	folks, is there something like a Learn you some clojure apart from tryclojure(which was great while it lasted!)
05:29	Raynes	Damn. Now I feel bad for not writing more tutorial.
05:30	Raynes	alcy: http://java.ociweb.com/mark/clojure/article.html is a pretty nice introduction.
05:31	alcy	Raynes: yep, tryclojure site suggested that, just didnt feel as awesome as tryclojure :) will work with it anyway
05:31	Licenser	dun dun dun
05:32	Raynes	http://www.unexpected-vortices.com/clojure/brief-beginners-guide/ I think this is more recent.
05:32	Raynes	Not sure of quality though.
05:32	Raynes	alcy: I apologize. :(
05:32	Raynes	I'd write more tutorial but I'm also writing a book that will be freely available online and thus a bit more of a resource than tryclojure.
05:33	Raynes	I was hoping somebody else would come along and add some tutorial but nobody has done so.
05:33	alcy	Raynes: you wrote tryclojure ? awesome, thanks for that! good to know about the ebook, should be nice
05:33	Raynes	I did. With plenty of help, of course. :)
05:34	alcy	i have played with higher order perl some and so this looks familiar a bit, will spend some time on data structures
05:36	alcy	Raynes: anyway, thanks for the hel
05:36	alcy	lol s/hel/help
05:36	Raynes	You're welcome for both the hel and the help.
05:44	clgv	alcy: get you a book ;)
05:46	clgv	Raynes: your second link seems to be more of a bootstrap summary for clojure ;)
08:19	casperc	I am messing around a bit with records, and I am wondering - is it possible to have a private field on the record which is not initialized when creating the record but loaded later?
08:34	fliebel	casperc: Why would you want to do that?
08:35	fliebel	I suppose you could play some nasty scope tricks..
08:46	clgv	sounds too OOPy ;)
08:51	casperc	Yeah, it probably is too OOPy indeed.
09:50	solussd	so, I'm experimenting with Noir for a project that will have both an html front-end and a RESTful interface. Does anyone know how I can check the "Accept" header to see if it is, e.g., application/json, so I can determine what format to respond with?
09:51	cemerick	solussd: there are a couple of content negotiation libraries out there that work well with ring.
09:53	cemerick	solussd: Something like webmachine is the Right Way to do stuff like this though. It's not done yet, but bishop looks promising: https://github.com/tnr-global/bishop
09:53	solussd	I was looking at the noir.request/ring-request function, which I think is suppose to return the request, but I haven't been able to squeeze headers from it. :/
09:54	cemerick	If it's actually returning the ring request, it must have :headers
09:54	solussd	hmm. i'll checkout the clojure web machine port, thanks
09:55	cemerick	Accept-* headers can get gnarly though. I wouldn't really want to parse them myself.
09:56	solussd	i was hoping to build on top of noir for both the web and rest side of things and dip down into the lower levels when needed
09:56	cemerick	there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to use noir where you want.
09:57	cemerick	it's all ring handlers; from the readme of bishop, you should be able to map content types to ring handlers, including noir'rs.
09:58	solussd	k. I got some reading to do then. :D
10:11	ohpauleez	lynaghk ping, again
10:17	fishmacs	I found clojure use vector instead list in many places, is it because of JVM?
10:19	solussd	fishmacs: it looks different than a list, so it stands out against the parentheses; it's more efficient to construct new vectors from existing ones when you're not adding to the front
10:19	RickInGA	fishmacs: probably lots of reasons, for me, I like not having to quote vector…. and what solussd said :)
10:24	fishmacs	I doubt syntax convenient is not a big reason for vector, seems a "modern" choice ?
10:26	RickInGA	fishmacs: the code seems a lot easier to read when it isn't all parens
10:26	fishmacs	RickInGA: yes, it is true. but is it main reason?
10:28	stuartsierra	By convention, Clojure uses Vectors instead of Lists to distinguish "data" from "code." \|n Clojure syntax, Lists almost always mean "call a function, macro, or special form." Vectors are commonly used for things that are not directly executed, like function parameters. There are exceptions to this convention, notably in the `ns` macro.
10:29	ejackson	I figure also vectors are much like lists with the added advantage of O(1) lookup by index, rather than O(n).
10:29	fishmacs	stuartsierra, but in lisp, code is the data?
10:29	RickInGA	fishmacs: also, vector useful when you want to find things by index, and someitmes you want to add stuff at end. If you want to grow at front, use list and to hell with convention!
10:29	stuartsierra	fishmacs: Yes, but there's "data that represents code to be executed" (lists, usually) and "data that's just data" (vectors, usually).
10:30	fishmacs	ejackson: vector may waste many memory space
10:31	ejackson	i usually have more memory than time...
10:31	stuartsierra	Clojure's vectors and lists are both persistent tree-like data structures which make pretty efficient use of memory.
10:31	fishmacs	Oh, I think vectors are array-like?
10:32	stuartsierra	fishmacs: Clojure's vectors offer similar behavior to classical arrays (indexed, near-constant-time lookup) but they are actually trees.
10:35	fishmacs	thinks stuartsierra, I forgot vector is immutable
10:35	stuartsierra	yes, all Clojure's data structures are immutable and persistent
10:37	fishmacs	stuartsierra, you said both vector and list are tree-like, is clojure list the conventional FP list?
10:38	stuartsierra	fishmacs: It is not a conventional singly-linked list, if that's what you mean.
10:38	fishmacs	stuartsieera: yes,this is what I meant
10:38	stuartsierra	But Clojure also has sequences, which are an abstraction that behaves similarly to the lists in functional languages like Haskell.
10:42	_andrew_k	what about maps ?
10:42	fishmacs	is old list in functional language out of time? I had read some posts talk performanace penalty of list
10:43	patrikkarlin	depends on how you use it
10:44	ejackson	_andrew_k: maps are also perstistent, tree like structures
10:45	ejackson	in fact they are trees under the hood
10:45	ejackson	check out http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/09/08/understanding-clojures-persistenthashmap-deftwice/ and the link to Vectors
10:45	fishmacs	why clojure give up conventional list as its basic data structure?
10:46	patrikkarlin	most of my code is lists
10:46	clgv	fishmacs: immutability and structure sharing between original and "mutation"
10:47	fishmacs	clgv: I think conventional lists also provide immutability and sharing
10:48	clgv	fishmacs: a simple single linked list can't do that
10:50	fishmacs	clgv: single linked lists can share their tails
10:50	ejackson	yeah, but tries can share anything and are very fast.
10:50	clgv	fishmacs: but they could be edited as well.
10:52	djwhitt	hmm... isn't this the implementation: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/PersistentList.java
10:52	stuartsierra	I take back my earlier statement. Clojure's lists ARE singly-linked lists, with a few extra features.
10:53	djwhitt	yeah, was about to say, that looks a lot like a singly linked list to me :)
10:53	stuartsierra	djwhitt: I was thinking of vectors instead.
10:53	stuartsierra	ok, time for me to get back to work
11:02	fishmacs`	think about (vec (map + [1 2 3] [4 5 6])), I have to convert back and forth between vector and sequence, I must pay some price?
11:03	ejackson	fishmacs`: map works with seq, which is very fast to create,
11:04	ejackson	so you get a seq over [1 2 3] and [4 5 6], and then construct a vector for the results
11:04	ejackson	no more than any other immutable system
11:06	fishmacs`	ejackson: so if clojure is pure, it would select sequence as its basic data structure?
11:06	ejackson	sequence is basic abstraction
11:06	ejackson	but its not a datatype
11:07	cemerick	fishmacs`: actually needing a vector instead of a sequence is rare
11:07	fishmacs`	I mean an implement of the abstraction, just like the implement you get from [1 2 3] and [4 5 6]
11:10	fishmacs`	yeah, I'm a newbie, just a little confusing about the choice of data type. I think imperial languages's basic data types are array-like, and functional languages's are singly-linked list
11:11	TimMc	fishmacs`: Traditionally, yes. Not with Clojure.
11:12	TimMc	$google clojure vector tree 32-way
11:12	lazybot	[Understanding Clojure's PersistentVector implementation \| Higher ...] http://blog.higher-order.net/2009/02/01/understanding-clojures-persistentvector-implementation/
11:13	fishmacs`	think you guys, I need read a lot more to understand the decisions made under hood
11:15	TimMc	fishmacs`: All you really need to know here is that vectors, maps, and sets in Clojure have O(n log n) insertion time.
11:15	ejackson	where log is base 32... so FAST
11:15	TimMc	Basically linear.
11:16	clgv	TimMc: errm, n*log n? that sounds not right
11:16	fishmacs`	O(log n)
11:17	rhc	yeah n log n for a vector would be pretty bad
11:17	rhc	considering non-immutable usually has o(1)
11:17	ejackson	yeah, log_32 n.
11:17	rhc	and its supposed to be "equivalent", right?
11:18	mknoszlig	rhc: in practice, yes
11:19	fishmacs`	rhc: what supposed to be equivalent? O(1) and O(log_32 n)?
11:19	rhc	fishmacs`: right, that's my understanding
11:19	ejackson	,(/ (log 10000) (log 32))
11:19	rhc	considering log_32 2^32 is 6
11:19	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: log in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:19	rhc	means, a pretty bad case will result in 6 tree traversals
11:20	mknoszlig	rhc: in big O, 6 = 1 ;)
11:20	ejackson	,(/ (Math/log 10000) (Math/log 32))v
11:20	clojurebot	2.65754247590989
11:20	rhc	mknoszlig: well yes, once you know n
11:20	ejackson	log_32 is a strong function
11:20	rhc	in bigO O(log n) and O(log_32 n) are equivalent too
11:20	TimMc	Eep, O(log n), right.
11:20	rhc	luckily people are realizing there's more than just 1, log n, n log n, and quadratic of n
11:21	rhc	especially whne you have an awesome fast O(1) alg with a massive constant time
11:21	rhc	so its super fast for n = 2^32 and slow for n = 100
11:21	TimMc	Right, that's why we have benchmarks. :-)
11:21	rhc	and profiling :)
11:21	rhc	same thing I guess :D
11:21	mknoszlig	rhc: that's two different aspects of optimization, no?
11:21	TimMc	Nah, profiling is better.
11:22	TimMc	err
11:22	TimMc	Ignore me today, I am having trouble with words.
11:22	TimMc	What I meant was, performance tests on your real data is better than benchmarks on made-up data.
11:23	rhc	i figured as much
11:39	Bronsa	hmhm
11:39	Bronsa	I have a question.
11:39	Bronsa	suppose i define a protocol P and extend it to String from the namespace a
11:40	Bronsa	if i extend it again from a namespace b, is there anyway to refer to the implementation defined in the namespace a?
11:40	Bronsa	*any way
11:42	TimMc	You're trying to extend the same protocol to the same class twice?
11:42	Bronsa	yes
11:42	Bronsa	it's just ipotetic, not really sure if this will ever happen to be needed
11:47	TimMc	I haven't worked with protocols, but my understanding is that extending protocol P to type T is only done when you own either P or T.
11:48	TimMc	So in this case you'd do the extension in the same ns where you define the protocol and be done with it.
11:52	konr	What's the right way to add a library with its current version to project.clj? Manually copying the line from clojars.org? If so, is there a way to automatize that?
11:57	clgv	konr: what do you want to automatize? resolution of the current version?
11:57	konr	clgv: yes
11:58	fishmacs`	q
11:58	clgv	konr: but often you will have to decide which version you really want to use
11:58	clgv	e.g. basic question: stable vs snapshot
11:59	clgv	konr: lein search should help you finding out what versions exist
12:04	konr	clgv: thanks!
12:08	cemerick	TimMc: You can extend P to T even if you don't own P or T. That's one of the big draws of protocols.
12:23	romanandreg	hey dnolen, where can I find the source code for PersistenVectors in cljs?
12:23	dnolen	romanandreg: https://github.com/laczoka/clojurescript/commit/a1409dfe6a1dfb4c3f35aba69bd43a0e281af5a5
12:24	romanandreg	dnolen: awesome! thanks
12:39	TimMc	cemerick: But is that wise?
12:41	cemerick	TimMc: well, if you need some type to participate in a protocol, there aren't a lot of alternatives.
12:41	cemerick	If one of the owners does introduce support later on, you can retract your extension.
12:47	technomancy	isn't that the moral equivalent of monkeypatching though?
12:48	technomancy	not that you should never do it, but that it renders protocols advantages over monkeypatching void
12:51	dnolen	technomancy: not quite. protocols mean something. If someone else extends String to ISeq, not a big deal.
12:52	technomancy	dnolen: well, monkeypatching is also not a big deal when there are no collisions.
12:53	dnolen	technomancy: not even remotely the same guarantee.
12:54	dnolen	even if several implementations replace one another, in the protocol case - who cares?
12:54	technomancy	presumably the one that loses cares?
12:54	dnolen	technomancy: why?
12:55	dnolen	if someone is side-effecting in an ISeq implementation - that's their problem.
12:55	dnolen	they have a broken implementation.
12:55	technomancy	sure, but what if the broken one wins?
12:55	dnolen	technomancy: one library you'll never use again.
12:55	technomancy	yes
12:55	technomancy	so... exactly the same as monkeypatching
12:56	dnolen	technomancy: no because in the monkeypatching case there no zone of agreement.
12:57	technomancy	it's still easy to get bitten by subtle differences
12:57	technomancy	probably not on ISeq, but as a rule
12:58	dnolen	technomancy: as a rule it should never matter. if it does you probably shouldn't be writing a protocol.
12:59	technomancy	well that won't be a problem for me then =)
13:02	wmealing_	I'm sure there is a better way to do this (functionally) can someone help me with the terms/ideas i should be learning to implement it correctly ( http://hastebin.com/qakobinudu.lisp )
13:04	lpetit	Just released Counterclockwise (An Eclipse Plugin for Clojure projects) version 0.6.0. http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/CuttingAReleaseRecipe
13:04	wmealing_	its short, its sweet, and you know it complete known as fizz buzz or something something
13:04	dnolen	lpetit: cool! is that the right url?
13:05	lpetit	crap
13:05	lpetit	Counterclockwise Release Note: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/ReleaseNotes?ts=1332435665&updated=ReleaseNotes
13:05	lpetit	dnolen: thx
13:05	devn	ugh, parsing the clojure cheatsheet is a bummer
13:05	lpetit	crap again
13:06	lpetit	What's wrong with me today :)
13:06	lpetit	http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/ReleaseNotes
13:07	dnolen	lpetit: neat that you've got the beginnings of ClojureScript support in there
13:07	lpetit	dnolen: as stated, really minimalistic, but definitely on the roadmap, right after Leiningen support
13:07	wmealing_	sweet, i shall try it.
13:09	dnolen	wmealing_: https://gist.github.com/2159796 is how I would do it.
13:12	wmealing_	looking now dnolen
13:12	wmealing_	ah
13:13	wmealing_	thanks, didnt know about else being used that way
13:18	technomancy	https://blogs.oracle.com/jrose/entry/value_types_in_the_vm <- interesting that John Rose says it's dangerous to allow identity? to be called on value objects
13:19	cemerick	lpetit: Do you know what "real" cljs support would look like?
13:19	cemerick	i.e. I wonder if, once lein tasks are available, that simply "use lein-cljsbuild" would be enough.
13:20	lpetit	cemerick: not really. The tricky part will be if one wants to use the REPL, right ?
13:20	dnolen	cemerick: I would think so, there should be support to launch ClojureScript REPLs (Rhino, Browser) as well
13:21	lpetit	what does lein-cljsbuild provide, in short?
13:22	dnolen	lpetit: tricky? since you control the environment you can just fire up a regular Clojure REPL and start the Rhino CLJS REPL
13:22	dnolen	lpetit: or start the Clojure REPL and start the browser REPL on the user defined port
13:23	cemerick	lpetit: auto-compliation of cljs files, among other things
13:23	lpetit	cemerick: this auto compilation of cljs files could be easily accomplished via a ClojureScript Eclipse Builder, right?
13:24	lpetit	cemerick: or does lein-cljsbuild embed too much goodness related to this auto compilation stuff to be ignored? (or maybe this can be extracted in a non-leiningen-based dependency?)
13:24	lpetit	cemerick: or maybe just use lein-cljsbuild :)
13:24	cemerick	lpetit: probably, but I'd think cljs is moving too fast yet to expect such a thing to keep up vs. an easily-upgradable lein plugin
13:25	lpetit	cemerick: I understand, and that's part of the idea of not having done cljs support first, and rather leiningen first
13:25	cemerick	right
13:25	lpetit	cemerick: My concern is wrt to Windows support in third-party leinigen plugins
13:26	lpetit	cemerick: whereas I know that Eclipse handles OS specifics very well
13:26	cemerick	It's a valid concern, but hardly one exclusive to eclipse.
13:26	cemerick	i.e. if cljsbuild falls down on windows, that'll get noticed pretty quickly I'd think
13:27	lpetit	cemerick: no option is discarded atm. We'll see what the state of the art is when a first round of leiningen support is done, and there's room to work on cljs support
13:28	cemerick	re: REPLs, we can quite trivially run a cljs repl, but a lot of the expectations around REPLs fall down in that scenario. i.e. no completion, no go-to-declaration, not sure what sessions look like, no potential (or use for?) rich content returns…
13:29	cemerick	it's sort of an uncanny valley situation where, it's a REPL all right, but everything is different by one or two degrees.
13:29	technomancy	no metadata ಥ_ಥ
13:29	cemerick	Right. Insofar as everything we've built for Clojure depends on a dynamic running introspectable environment…
13:30	dnolen	technomancy: cemerick: metadata is preserved. introspective facilities is an open ticket on JIRA.
13:32	cemerick	What do tools look like for Coffeescript? Is it an equivalent to cljsbuild + a console + a text editor + chrome inspector, or has anyone worked out anything more sophisticated than that?
13:33	dnolen	cemerick: CoffeeScript dev mostly like JS dev, with the added step that you start of the compiler to watch files.
13:33	lpetit	CCW Version 0.5.0 has been downloaded 7093 times, let's see whether Version 0.6.0 can do better :)
13:33	dnolen	cemerick: CLJS dev is already quite a bit more sophisticated if the tools support it - Emacs, SublimeText 2 is very good.
13:35	technomancy	dnolen: metadata on defns? or just metadata that's explicitly attached to data structures?
13:36	patrikkarlin	Oo has sublimetext 2 anny slime esk things?
13:36	dnolen	technomancy: all the usual stuff that can't exist in the evaluation environment lives in an atom - namespaces.
13:37	technomancy	cool; is that new-ish?
13:37	dnolen	technomancy: all that's required is a cljs.reflect\|introspect to call back into the complier to request information
13:37	dnolen	technomancy: no been there the whole time as far as I know.
13:38	technomancy	aha
13:38	lpetit	dnolen: there are a bunch of core functions which are not yet implemented, right, such as clojure.core/public-*, right ?
13:38	photex	so figured out that my inability to clojure-jack-in last night was that rlwrap was hitting SIGFPE when run from emacs
13:38	Zoka	lpetit: do you use latest nREPL in CCW 0.6.0?
13:39	photex	I had finally gotten around to installing it to get rid of the warning when running lein
13:39	lpetit	Zoka: this has been saved for CCW 0.7.0.
13:39	dnolen	lpetit: yes anything that requires reified vars/nses has not been implemented yet.
13:39	lpetit	Will be released as a BETA version soon, next thursday
13:39	photex	so heads up in case anybody hits the same issue
13:39	lpetit	Zoka: ^^
13:39	dnolen	patrikkarlin: not slime stuff, more like inferior lisp via SublimeREPL
13:40	Zoka	lpetit: Thanks
13:40	lpetit	dnolen: if I understand correctly, a new implementation, specific to cljs, of these functions can be written, based on the content of the atom you mentioned above?
13:40	photex	quick question for anyone who might know: clojure.java.shell <- is this the recommended way to launch and monitor long running processes?
13:41	photex	I don't see an obvious mention of streaming output back into my app
13:41	photex	should I just punt and look at native java solutions?
13:41	dnolen	lpetit: yes, we already have communication between compiler and runtime environment - we just need to extend it to support introspection.
13:42	technomancy	photex: yeah, leiningen had to reimplement clojure.java.shell since it assumes you're going to want to wait till the process exits
13:42	photex	cool, thanks technomancy
13:43	technomancy	photex: also, rlwrap should be disabled if it detects $INSIDE_EMACS
13:43	technomancy	is that not the case for you?
13:43	lpetit	dnolen: I have existing code which uses the usual suspects in clojure.core for introspection. Is the intent of the issue mentioned above to implement those same usual suspects (so that my introspection code can work the same without adapting my code)?
13:43	photex	technomancy apparently not, I just built it from source though
13:43	photex	at work I use CentOS 5.3
13:43	technomancy	photex: why from source?
13:43	photex	rlwrap
13:43	technomancy	the 1.x branch?
13:44	photex	I didn't pay attention actually
13:44	technomancy	the master branch doesn't use rlwrap
13:44	dnolen	lpetit: pretty much.
13:44	photex	I built rlwrap 0.37
13:44	dnolen	technomancy: wow, this is a cool feature of lein 2, http://sunng.info/blog/2012/03/my-favorite-feature-in-leiningen-2/ !
13:45	photex	oh, I'm using Leiningen 1.7.0
13:46	photex	whenever I run lein I get the rlwrap warning; so I installed it and didn't notice the issue right away
13:46	photex	at first I thought .emacs.d was hosed because of a power outtage
13:46	technomancy	dnolen: a transitive feature, if you will; that's all cemerick and xeqi.
13:46	technomancy	but yeah, handy to have around for sure
13:46	dnolen	technomancy: that is RAD
13:47	photex	but then I realized that the SIGFPE error was prefixed by rlwrap:
13:47	photex	so I renamed rlwrap to rlwarp.BAK in my ~/bin
13:47	photex	problem disapeared
13:47	technomancy	photex: what version of emacs? maybe checking $INSIDE_EMACS isn't reliable.
13:48	photex	I had to build Emacs from git
13:48	photex	I think it's 24.0.x
13:48	xeqi	dnolen: got to be careful with that. if you pull in two dependencies seperatly you can get some conflicts if they rely on different versions of a sub-dependency
13:48	xeqi	but it works well enough
13:48	photex	24.0.93.1
13:48	xeqi	for simple playing around with a library
13:49	cemerick	xeqi: we'll be able to warn or fail in such scenarios eventually
13:49	technomancy	photex: weird. can you open an issue on github for that?
13:49	photex	sure thing
13:49	technomancy	definitely shouldn't be a problem
13:49	cemerick	and here I considered pulling the add-classpath stuff out of pomegranate some while back :-P
13:50	dnolen	technomancy: the speed at which lein2 launches is a repl is pretty slick.
13:52	technomancy	dnolen: there was a bug fixed in 1.3 that allows us to put the whole uberjar on the bootclasspath; that's where most of the boost is coming from
13:53	ldopa	ls
13:55	ldopa	i'm surprised that doesn't happen more often to people using term-mode/rcirc
13:55	technomancy	ldopa: different color themes helps =)
13:57	cemerick	just as long as it's not a password or copy/paste snafu... ;-)
14:00	stuartsierra	Just noticed that lein 1.x highlight matches parens and lein2 doesn't. Is that a feature of rlwrap?
14:02	technomancy	stuartsierra: yeah, lein2 uses jline2, which has nearly all the features of rlwrap, but apparently not all of them
14:02	stuartsierra	ok
14:03	stuartsierra	technomancy: Minor issue. Great work all around!
14:04	technomancy	thanks
14:04	technomancy	the repl stuff was all Raynes and trptcolin though
14:04	dnolen	pure awesomeness is what that is.
14:04	technomancy	and also some scala guys making jline2 actually a respectable rlwrap replacement
14:05	stuartsierra	We've been making a lot of use of custom tasks and `lein run -m` for bigger projects. It makes a nice way to portably invoke some Clojure code.
14:05	technomancy	for a while we were using a scala-specific fork of jline even
14:05	technomancy	stuartsierra: cool. are you aware of the trampoline higher-order task?
14:06	technomancy	saves memory in that kind of scenario
14:06	stuartsierra	aware it exists, but haven't explored it
14:06	cemerick	almost no one uses it
14:06	cemerick	viz. the survey
14:07	stuartsierra	So it still launches 2 JVMs, but only leaves one running instead of two?
14:07	technomancy	stuartsierra: yeah, it's like clojure.core/trampoline, but for JVMs instead of functions
14:08	stuartsierra	cool
14:10	cemerick	I've been using :eval-in :classloader for one project to optimize the startup time
14:11	technomancy	cemerick: there have been concerns that the classloader stuff conflicts with the bootclasspath; have you found that to be the case?
14:11	technomancy	I guess it would only manifest if you needed a different version of Clojure from Leiningen itself
14:11	cemerick	I haven't hit a problem.
14:12	cemerick	Although yes, it could easily be a problem if your project shares a dep with one of Lein's.
14:12	stuartsierra	I don't think we'll ever be able to have two different versions of Clojure in the same ClassLoader.
14:12	stuartsierra	Hierarchical ClassLoaders suck.
14:12	technomancy	cemerick: I wonder if lein could be smart enough to switch that on if it can determine it's safe
14:12	cemerick	well, :eval-in :classloader uses a different classloader.
14:12	pandeiro	has anyone done a wrapper for geotools?
14:13	stuartsierra	cemerick: oh, so it doesn't inherit anything from Lein's classloader?
14:14	cemerick	stuartsierra: no, it does, but that's not trying to have different revs of Clojure in the same classloader.
14:14	cemerick	Hrm, actually, that might not be right.
14:14	cemerick	Classlojure could be (or get to be) crafty enough to ignore the bootclassloader too.
14:15	technomancy	cemerick: I definitely need to do some science on that before the final 2.0.0
14:15	stuartsierra	To paraphrase Sartre, Hell is other people's ClassLoaders.
14:16	cemerick	right, so it doesn't; just gloms onto the ext classloader at the moment.
14:17	cemerick	stuartsierra: nice
14:18	cemerick	technomancy: this is a broader problem that can't be solved statically; remember my ranting about the dynamic changes that lein.repl does
14:19	technomancy	if you would refresh my memory?
14:19	cemerick	I'll bet that's just the tip of the iceberg.
14:19	cemerick	lein.repl adds nrepl vXXX (and others) to the project classpath, which might already contain vYYY.
14:19	technomancy	oh, sure
14:20	technomancy	but isn't that addressed by task-specific profiles that defer upon conflict?
14:20	technomancy	profile merge logic already handles conflicting deps
14:20	cemerick	Not given multiple classloaders, or middleware magic.
14:20	cemerick	Or, I wouldn't think so.
14:21	technomancy	I think middlewares that touch :dependencies will only be safe if they use merge-profiles
14:21	technomancy	and perhaps we can only use an in-process classloader if we detect that there are no conflicts between the project and Leiningen itself
14:22	cemerick	You could always shade everything in leiningen's uberjar!
14:23	technomancy	ಠ_ಠ
14:23	cemerick	did you get a new emote minor mode or something? :-)
14:25	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.emacs.d/phil/cosmetics.el#L38
14:26	joegallo	omg. slow clap.
14:26	fliebel	Clojure does class loading and code generation at runtime, right?
14:28	arohner	clojurebot: inc technomancy
14:28	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:28	arohner	who does that?
14:28	scriptor	(inc technomancy)
14:28	lazybot	⇒ 22
14:28	stuartsierra	fliebel: yes
14:28	arohner	ah, of course
14:29	fliebel	stuartsierra: Ok. To bad... I'd like to run Clojure on the LEGO NXT, but it does some statick linking to save space.
14:29	stuartsierra	fliebel: if you AOT-compile everything then you don't need any run-time classloading.
14:30	stuartsierra	But the JARs are still bloated with run-time metadata.
14:30	stuartsierra	That's why Clojure on Android still doesn't work too well.
14:31	fliebel	stuartsierra: Right... I wonder what JVM language other than Java could run on the NXT.
14:31	technomancy	fliebel: mirah is nice for a "it doesn't hurt as much as java" without bringing along runtime baggage
14:32	technomancy	but it doesn't have a repl. =(
14:32	fliebel	technomancy: That's one of the pages I have open in my browser at the moment
14:32	technomancy	fliebel: for me personally, it's hard to have fun in a language that doesn't have a repl.
14:32	fliebel	technomancy: Yea, I miss the repl on NXT. pbLua is the only one that has it, as far as I know.
14:33	fliebel	pbLua has other shortcomings though.
14:33	technomancy	I think Mirah is valuable for targeting Android because currently the other existing options are awful, but I have a hard time recommending it recreationally until it gets a repl.
14:35	fliebel	technomancy: How would you do a repl, without runtime deps?
14:35	technomancy	fliebel: clojurescript manages it somehow. =)
14:36	stuartsierra	The ClojureScript REPL is brittle and hackish compared to the Clojure REPL.
14:36	stuartsierra	For now.
14:36	fliebel	technomancy: But JS has a repl of itself, and ClojureScript has quite some runtime deps right?
14:36	technomancy	yeah, that may not be a good example since JS has eval
14:38	technomancy	fliebel: the repl wouldn't be an integral part of the language; repl-enabled mirah would boot much more slowly than raw mirah
14:38	fliebel	technomancy: I guess nailgun is interesting... I don;t quite remember what it is though.
14:38	technomancy	but for development you wouldn't care
14:38	fliebel	technomancy: It can generate java source, so maybe beanshell is an option?
14:39	technomancy	maybe. I haven't looked into it
14:39	sandover	dnolen: you tweeted the other day that sublime text is not a bad clojure dev environment. tweet more on this? I've been frustrated by lack of indent support, funny key cmds (ctl-p ctl-n), hanging repls, etc.
14:40	emezeske	fliebel: I think nrepl/jark supercede nailgun
14:55	pcavs	Is it possible to use a macro to do something like (defmacro my-macro [obj foo] (.myMethodCalled~foo obj)) such that (my-macro obj "Bar") ==> (.myMethodCalledBar obj) ? Messing around it seems not, so I was wondering if there is a way to do this?
14:56	patrikkarlin	use the syntax (. obj myMethodCalledBar)
14:56	patrikkarlin	pcavs
14:56	emezeske	,(symbol (str ".myMethodCalled" "Bar"))
14:56	clojurebot	.myMethodCalledBar
14:56	pcavs	awesome, many thanks.
14:57	pcavs	haha, we'll find out
14:58	emezeske	,`(~(symbol (str ".len" "gth")) "hello")
14:58	clojurebot	(.length "hello")
14:58	emezeske	,(eval `(~(symbol (str ".len" "gth")) "hello"))
14:58	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
14:58	pcavs	no eval I think in the jailhouse
14:58	emezeske	Ah, yeah
14:59	pcavs	trapped like rats!
14:59	ClusterCat	Hi, as an emacs beginner, how do I get the output (like a failure stacktrace) in emacs when using C-c C-k?
15:01	slyrus	technomancy: any idea which version of slime I should be using with swank-clojure 1.5.0?
15:02	patrikkarlin	clusterCat: u can use C-c C-l instead it showes a stacktrace
15:02	patrikkarlin	i had newer used C-c C-k before :S
15:03	arohner	anyone have a good workflow for reviewing ~100 commits in GitHub?
15:04	photex	masters of lein: I'd like to access a namespace in my project from control.clj but the classpath doesn't seem to get setup correctly
15:04	photex	is this a project.clj issue, or the plugin not being setup to handle this?
15:04	amalloy	arohner: just get a rubber stamp like http://www.webdesign-guru.co.uk/icon/wp-content/uploads/ok.gif
15:05	photex	more specifically, I'd like to just access libs I depend on in project.clj
15:05	photex	but I'm getting stacktraces out the wazoo
15:05	ClusterCat	patrikkarlin, not for me. In fact no buffer shows any output. It is an clojure/seesaw programm. When running via 'lein run -m foo.core' it throws an exception which I don't see in emacs.
15:06	amalloy	seriously though, aside from using the compare/diff view to get all the commits in one place, i don't have any great ideas like a way to mark commits as good
15:06	arohner	my main issue is just viewing them in something that has a good workflow for reading, like google reader
15:07	photex	before I file an issue with the plugin project I'd like to make sure it's not an issue with my project setup
15:07	arohner	but if I add a github RSS feed, I only get ~30 commits, I can't scroll back in time
15:07	amalloy	arohner: https://github.com/4clojure/4clojure/compare/e5e4c920...8f7e5aa2 ?
15:07	arohner	yeah, I find that really annoying. Reaching for the mouse, waiting for page refreshes, etc
15:08	arohner	no hotkeys to visit next commit
15:08	amalloy	open them all in tabs, C-w to close tabs you're done with
15:08	arohner	and that munges commits together, rather than reading one at a time
15:09	amalloy	or do it from git instead of github - git log --patch-with-stat a...b
15:09	arohner	yeah, I'm playing with magit's log viewer now
15:09	patrikkarlin	ClusterCat: what happends if you import the ns from the slime repl and run?
15:09	emezeske	amalloy: Thank you for bringing --patch-with-stat to my attention. Awesomeness.
15:09	mk	arohner: what are the problems with how you expect to do it? just the delay between reviews?
15:10	arohner	mk: my ideal would be something like google reader. hotkeys to move between commits, and marking read vs. unread
15:10	arohner	mk: I'd use google reader if I could get it to display more than 30 commits when adding a new feed
15:11	slyrus	or, put another away, how do I keep my clojure process from dying soon after accepting my first C-c C-k?
15:11	mk	perhaps you could mess with the feed you give to the reader
15:11	mk	yahoo pipes lets you alter the feed in various ways, maybe you could cut off the most recent N, and do it in 4 batches, or something
15:13	ClusterCat	patrikkarlin, it throws a class not found o.O
15:14	patrikkarlin	clusterCat: witch is not the exeption you get by running it?
15:16	ClusterCat	patrikkarlin, no, when I run the program via lein, I get an AWT-whatever-exception, a seesaw related error. I think I'll try to set up a debugging buffer if I find out how :-D
15:19	patrikkarlin	clusterCat: have you changed you deps sins you started the slime session?
15:21	ClusterCat	patrikkarlin, nope. Maybe I am using something wrong? I start emacs foo.clj, M-x clojure-jack-in, then C-c C-k. If everthing is correct a swing frame is displayed. If there is an error, I see absolutely nothing.
15:22	dnolen	sandover: https://github.com/swannodette/cljs-demo
15:23	patrikkarlin	theres a slime events buffewr
15:23	patrikkarlin	buffer*
15:25	tacoman	everyone in the Haskell community (or at least on Reddit) seems to think monads are the best thing to ever happen to FP, whereas I've found a few tutorials on them from Clojurians, but they seem to be mostly ignored. is there any real point to them in a Clojure program/are they worth learning about, practically?
15:26	emezeske	tacoman: There was a nice talk at Clojure/West about using the state and maybe monads for implementing DSLs
15:26	scriptor	tacoman: if you read the reddict comments from those who know their stuff, monads are by far not the most important things on FP
15:26	patrikkarlin	the core.logic libary sems to be monadic
15:26	amalloy	tacoman: they're neat and something clojure people wish they understood better. but they're less useful/easy/necessary than they are in haskell, so we mostly wind up not getting them
15:28	dnolen	tacoman: Haskell absolutely needs them. They aren't the best anything. They are a thing.
15:30	sandover	monads are a solution to the problem of how to tractably do operations that have side effects in a purely functional language. Clojure isn't purely functional.
15:30	sandover	tractable isn't quite the right word
15:30	amalloy	sandover: that's overly specific. monads do lots of things that aren't related to state at all
15:31	sandover	maybe, but what they do that's actually _important_ is save haskell's pure functional bacon! ;)
15:42	llasram	Eh. The sequence and maybe monads are pretty important too
15:43	amalloy	right. i kinda assume sandover has never written any haskell (not that i've written much)
15:46	sandover	i've written some haskell, though not for production. i enjoy & respect the cult of monads, though I think it's beneficial not to take it too seriously.
15:47	sandover	it's an amazing hammer that is still looking for the right nails.
15:49	emezeske	The maybe monad definitely seems like the right nail
15:49	sandover	beyond pure functional languages, do you think?
15:49	sandover	in them, for sure.
15:50	emezeske	Yeah, I definitely think
15:50	_andrew_k_	we can use monads not only in pure functional languages
15:50	_andrew_k_	we use list and set monads in almost every language
15:51	emezeske	Whenever you are transforming some value with a bunch of operations, any of which might return "no value", the maybe monad is great
15:51	_andrew_k_	exception is a kind of monad, too
15:52	_andrew_k_	monads is more about how we process the data
15:52	sandover	are there any monads in clojure core libraries?
15:52	_andrew_k_	yep
15:52	sandover	(not implied ones, formally defined ones)
15:52	dakrone	sandover: https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads is used in a few
15:52	sandover	monad-as-design pattern doesn't count
15:53	dnolen_	sandover: not that I'm aware of.
15:55	_andrew_k_	in 1.2 there was clojure.contrib.monads
15:58	llasram	https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads is a 1.3 official contrib library
15:58	sandover	understood; that's the hammer.
15:59	llasram	Oh, sorry
15:59	llasram	Hah!
15:59	sandover	:)
15:59	llasram	I only saw _andrew_k_'s comment 1.2
16:04	_andrew_k_	i played with it last time in 1.2, and didn't know what it's now .. )
16:10	mk	what's the difference between a symbol and a var?
16:10	dnolen_	mk: a symbol just another kind of Lisp value.
16:10	brehaut	a var is a reference type, a symbol is just an identifier
16:10	patrikkarlin	symbol is a data type a var is a reference
16:11	amalloy	in brief: a symbol is a name, a var is a name and a container
16:11	Raynes	And amalloy is a genius.
16:11	Raynes	Bow to him.
16:12	mk	so x is a symbol. It's like "x", or 99, or whatever, but it's a value that tends to be used by the "language" itself more than anything
16:13	mk	javascript blurs this, for example, by having maps everywhere: .foo is actually "foo", but lisp distinguishes between strings and symbols - right?
16:13	mk	and keywords are just like symbols...
16:13	aperiodic	keywords and symbols have completely different evaluation symantics
16:14	mk	but they are both just values, and values of different types, right?
16:14	dnolen_	mk: many values self-evaluate at the REPL, an unquoted symbol at the REPL will be resolved - the var will be found and the value it contains returned.
16:14	dnolen_	,'first
16:14	dnolen_	vs.
16:14	clojurebot	first
16:14	dnolen_	,first
16:14	clojurebot	#<core$first clojure.core$first@5396e1>
16:14	pandeiro	is there a way to make clojure-jack-in recognize the repl namespace in :repl-init and start there?
16:15	amalloy	mk: yes, they are. dnolen's point is about what happens when you attempt to evaluate one (eg by typing it in at the repl or as source code)
16:15	technomancy	pandeiro: not currently
16:15	mk	I'm reading an intro article that says def returns a var - I think this is confusing, because why not just bind to a symbol and return the symbol?
16:16	dnolen_	mk: symbols are not containers, their just regular Lisp values like I said above.
16:17	mk	right, but nothing is really a container, not even a list (it's just a value with relations to other values)
16:17	dnolen_	mk: vars are containers
16:17	_andrew_k_	symbols are the values themselves, var it's a label of container
16:17	dnolen_	,#'first
16:17	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/first
16:17	dnolen_	,(type #'first)
16:17	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
16:17	mk	if I evaluate a symbol, don't I get the bound value?
16:17	_andrew_k_	you get the symbols itself
16:17	dnolen_	mk: symbols don't self-evaluate at the REPL.
16:18	mk	I'm not sure I follow. If I type x, it evaluates to 5 because I did (def x 5) earlier
16:19	mk	so where does the var come in?
16:19	TimMc	mk: That's because it is compiled.
16:20	dnolen_	mk: symbol -> var -> var's value
16:20	dnolen_	mk: quoted symbol -> symbol
16:20	Bronsa	it's not completly true that symbol -> var, isnt it?
16:21	mk	oh. Why not symbol -> bound value?
16:21	TimMc	Bronsa: That's the resolve step
16:21	Bronsa	it's more like the evaluator when encounter a symbol, resolves to a var
16:21	dnolen_	mk: because it's useful to manipulate symbols by themselves and not their values.
16:22	mk	dnolen_: what do you mean? Presumably I'd still be able to quote the symbol to just get the symbol
16:23	dnolen_	mk: macros, Clojure itself is defined in terms of being able to manipulate data structures and values - including symbols.
16:23	mk	ok, I follow so far
16:24	Chousuke	mk: in clojure, symbols are just names for things. vars are the actual containers of values
16:24	mk	why have symbol -> var -> value, instead of symbol -> value?
16:25	mk	Chousuke: but how does one know which var corresponds to which symbol?
16:25	ldopa	mk: both concepts exist in other languages, but are usually implicit
16:25	_andrew_k_	var is reference, symbol is name of var
16:25	dnolen_	mk: some symbols may represent things which are not top level - think about locals
16:25	Chousuke	mk: the var has a name.
16:25	_andrew_k_	when you use a var - clojure looks up the var in namespace by symbol
16:25	dnolen_	mk: symbols may even get reused
16:25	mk	why not look up the value in the namespace by symbol?
16:26	dnolen_	mk: locals
16:26	Chousuke	mk: in namespace foo, bar and foo/bar resolve to the same var, but are not the same symbol
16:26	mk	dnolen_: not familiar - I'm somewhat new to the language
16:26	Chousuke	mk: if symbols held values, you'd get into trouble
16:27	dnolen_	mk: local bindings
16:27	_andrew_k_	,(def x 5)
16:27	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
16:28	Chousuke	mk: it has the added benefit of making symbols immutable which helps when processing them
16:28	Chousuke	vars are the mutable things and they have mutation semantics like other ref types
16:28	_andrew_k_	,filter
16:28	clojurebot	#<core$filter clojure.core$filter@c9c89f>
16:28	_andrew_k_	,'filter
16:28	clojurebot	filter
16:28	_andrew_k_	,#'filter
16:28	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/filter
16:28	_andrew_k_	the first is value - function
16:29	_andrew_k_	the second is symbol
16:29	_andrew_k_	and the third is var
16:29	mk	symbols would still be immutable, though namespaces would be mutable. If I def, do both x and namespace/x get bound to the new var?
16:29	Chousuke	mk: no, symbols don't get bound to anything
16:29	Chousuke	mk: but a var named namespace/x will get created
16:30	aperiodic	mk: i think the reason is that it if you went from symbol->value, then in order to implement local bindings, declaring a local binding would have to mutate the value of the symbol in whatever you're using to lookup symbol values, at whichi point the thing isn't really a local binding at all
16:30	Chousuke	and within that namespace, and any namespace that imports the x, the symbol x will resolve to that var
16:30	Chousuke	in another namespace, the symbol x might resolve to a different var
16:33	mk	what is a local binding?
16:33	Bronsa	let
16:33	mk	what does it do?
16:34	Bronsa	,(let [x 1] x)
16:34	clojurebot	1
16:34	aperiodic	mk: in (let [x 42] x), x is a local binding which has the value of 42 only in the body of the let
16:34	Chousuke	in that case, the symbol x is still only a name for the local value
16:34	Bronsa	it binds the symbol `x` to the value 1 in the lexical scope inside the let
16:34	Chousuke	its storage is a detail of the compiler implementation
16:35	Chousuke	in common lisp values actually do get stored in symbols, ie. they are pointers. but in clojure they're just names.
16:36	aperiodic	mk: if you haven't already, I'd highly recommend reading clojure.org's page on evaluation (http://clojure.org/evaluation)
16:37	mk	I'm somewhat familiar with how javascript does this, so maybe I'm thinking about it in the wrong way - in javascript, there is a chain of maps. Failure to resolve a symbol (in js, a string) in the first map means that the parent map will be checked, and so on
16:37	pandeiro	iwillig: do you use geoscript with clojure 1.3? i can't get geoscript.geometry to evaluate without error, gonna investigate when i have time tonight
16:37	Bronsa	,(let [x 1] (let [x 2] x))
16:37	mk	if I have clojure right, a namespace maps symbols to ...vars (I thought values)
16:38	clojurebot	2
16:38	Chousuke	mk: yeah
16:38	dnolen_	mk: in JS symbols are not user manipulatable values, nor are the containers for defined things reified in the language
16:38	Chousuke	mk: values are immutable, but bindings can change, so vars are needed
16:38	Chousuke	vars are not immutable
16:39	iwillig	hi pandeiro, you know i have not looked at geoscript for a long time
16:39	mk	dnolen_: they are. When you type x = 1 on the outermost scope, this remaps x. You can also push objects (maps) onto the chain using: with (foo)
16:39	iwillig	pandeiro, can you past me your error ?
16:39	Chousuke	symbols could have var-style semantics for mutation but then you'd have the problem I mentioned earlier. if symbol foo/x holds a value, then should x hold the same value, or something else?
16:40	mk	are namespaces immutable?
16:40	Chousuke	nah, you add bindings to a namespace.
16:40	Chousuke	with def and require etc.
16:40	dnolen_	mk: they are not reified in JS you cannot manipulate them and there is no interface to them. scope chain and vars are not the same thing.
16:41	mk	but is a namespace essentially a map?
16:41	Chousuke	dnolen_: well can't you add keys to some global object to create a binding in javascript?
16:41	Chousuke	mk: yeah
16:41	Chousuke	mk: with symbols instead of strings as keys
16:42	Chousuke	javascript in essence has strings instead of symbols for names, and then pretends that variables are something special :P
16:42	mk	dnolen_: in js, symbols are strings, and all objects are maps. object.prop is the same as object["prop"]
16:43	Chousuke	object aren't quite maps IIRC. there's some gotcha but I can't recall it :/
16:43	Chousuke	objects*
16:43	mk	Chousuke: var foo = 5 does precisely that. It adds the key "foo" (a string) with value 5 to the global scope object
16:44	Chousuke	mk: in clojure (def foo 5) would add an entry with the symbol foo as key pointing to a var named foo that holds the value, instead
16:44	Chousuke	well, var named namespace/foo actually
16:45	mk	Chousuke: the gotcha might have something to do with the possibility of native objects (which can do arbitrary things according to spec), but conceptually they are definitely maps and can be treated as such
16:45	Chousuke	then whenever foo is referred, that var is dug up. and when its value is needed, deref is called on the var to get the current bound value
16:46	Chousuke	the deref is implicit in most code but sometimes you need to use vars directly
16:46	Chousuke	if you eg, want to be able to dynamically rebind a function that you pass as a parameter to something
16:46	Chousuke	you pass the var instead and it works.
16:47	terom	mk: I think "var foo = 5" adds key to local scope instead of global scope, but foo = 5 (without declaring it as a var) adds to global scope. But I might recall this incorrectly...
16:47	Chousuke	scope is weird in javascript anyway
16:47	Chousuke	dynamically scoped this is the weirdest thing ever
16:48	mk	terom: foo = 5 will look up the value "foo" along the scope chain. If found, it will bind it at that level.
16:48	Chousuke	I try to not think of it as "this" in the first place, just some context object that holds whatever context we are running in.
16:48	dnolen_	mk: it's still not quite the same as vars in Clojure, you can't get the container in JS. there's also the problem that many things that are normal symbols in Clojure are special in JS - operators.
16:48	Chousuke	it makes more sense to me that way
16:50	amalloy	i never really thought about the fact that this is dynamically scoped. i don't really do enough js to care, but hopefully that insight will help me understand it next time
16:50	_andrew_k_	i think it's bad idea - trying to understand clojure in terms of js )(
16:51	technomancy	amalloy: hopefully there won't be a next time
16:52	Chousuke	there are worse options than JS :P
16:52	terom	_andrew_k_: could be, or maybe if there would be a good comparision available, it would be helpful :)
16:53	Chousuke	if you're used to prototypal OO in JS working with plain data structures in clojure should feel quite natural
16:54	mk	_andrew_k_: yeah, definitely. I feel like an idiot for bringing it up, but it's how I understand scope, and is probably the reason I'm not following the quadruple namespace+symbol+var+value resolution system
16:55	Chousuke	mk: you should think of them as separate things, not something complicated
16:55	_andrew_k_	mk: ask what the difference between let and binding and you get real brain storm )
16:55	Chousuke	namespaces hold bindings. symbols name things. vars hold values. values are values :P
16:56	_andrew_k_	values are bytes
16:56	_andrew_k_	bytes are bits
16:56	scgilardi	no turtles?
16:56	Chousuke	that goes below the abstraction that clojure provides :P
16:56	_andrew_k_	bits are electorns in transistors
16:56	mk	well, I'd hesitate to call js oo. The whole language is really just a bunch of maps, as well as prototype-style inheritance, and scope. You can encapsulate with closures and so on, but you don't have to
16:57	mk	ok, so symbols are values, namespaces are maps, vars are pointers (and values are values ;)
16:57	Chousuke	symbols are not values, symbols are names :P
16:58	aperiodic	symbols are values that are often used as names
16:58	Chousuke	well, a symbol is a value too, just like everything else, but yeah.
16:58	aperiodic	at macro-expand time, symbols are just values
16:58	mk	(namespaces map symbols to all sorts of value types; keys to map-values)
16:59	dnolen_	mk: JS is definitely OO, with a sensible does of FP.
16:59	dnolen_	dose
17:00	Chousuke	mk: understanding why you need var containers for values is probably easier if you consider threading. a simple pointer can't provide any sort of sane semantics in a multithreaded environment
17:00	Chousuke	vars provide the ability to thread-locally dynamically rebind their value
17:00	mk	I suspect that there's a very good reason why there's an extra pointer in there, because the map itself could have just pointed to the value. If you're using scope chains anyway, then let should just add to the chain. Smart people had the option of doing it that way, but didn't, so I wonder why
17:01	dnolen_	mk: injecting objects into scope chains is dog slow - thus it's removal in "strict mode"
17:02	mk	can I access the namespace object in clojure?
17:02	Chousuke	yes
17:02	dnolen_	mk: yes
17:03	Bronsa	,(the-ns 'clojure.core)
17:03	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
17:03	pandeiro	iwillig: yeah it's this: http://sprunge.us/fbUY ... i think it's just a matter of updating the dependencies
17:03	aperiodic	,(apropos 'ns)
17:03	clojurebot	(ns-aliases booleans the-ns instance? gensym ...)
17:03	Chousuke	namespaces are named by symbols too :P
17:03	Chousuke	and now that I think of it, java methods, classes, etc. are named by symbols too
17:04	mk	so I can map the symbols "ns/x" and "x" in both the global and current namespaces to 4 different vars, or the same single var?
17:04	pandeiro	iwillig: i am working with shapefiles for the first time and i was happy to find geoscript and your clojure implementation... i will see if i can fix it tonight, and if so send you a pull request
17:05	Chousuke	mk: if you're in namespace ns, ns/x should always refer to the var #'ns/x in that namespace. but x could refer to #another.ns/x
17:05	iwillig	thanks pandeiro... however i to apologize because geoscript is unfinished and looks to be broken. never got a chance to fix it
17:05	Chousuke	mk: if, for example, you somehow unmap the original mapping of x
17:06	pandeiro	iwillig: even if it only digests shapefiles, can simplify and output to geojson, and vice versa, that would be really useful
17:07	Chousuke	most often it's the other way around though. you might eg. want to remove the default mapping of = (which refers to clojure.core/=) and replace it with your own def of = in your namespace
17:07	pandeiro	the reading and converting part works, the simplifying doesn't b/c of geoscript.geometry
17:07	mk	do vars contain/point to their original symbol as well as the value, then?
17:07	Chousuke	mk: no, they just have a symbol object that represents their name
17:07	Chousuke	mk: it might be the same symbol object, or it might not be
17:08	Chousuke	there is nothing that prevents you from having a dozen different objects that are the same symbol as far as clojure is concerned
17:08	Chousuke	,(identical? 'foo (symbol "foo"))
17:08	clojurebot	false
17:08	Chousuke	,(= 'foo (symbol "foo"))
17:08	clojurebot	true
17:08	_andrew_k_	Chousuke: symbol x always point to the current namespace - it's short form of ns/x (when you are in namespace ns)
17:09	Chousuke	_andrew_k_: but it can point to a var in another namespace
17:09	Chousuke	,ns
17:09	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
17:09	Chousuke	,#'=
17:09	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/=
17:09	mk	_andrew_k_: but the namespace is a map. You can presumably map the symbol x to be anything you want, even not ns/x
17:09	Chousuke	,(ns-mappings ns)
17:09	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: ns-mappings in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:10	Chousuke	hm, what was the function :P
17:10	aperiodic	,(ns-map ns)
17:10	clojurebot	{sorted-map #'clojure.core/sorted-map, read-line #'clojure.core/read-line, re-pattern #'clojure.core/re-pattern, keyword? #'clojure.core/keyword?, unchecked-inc-int #'clojure.core/unchecked-inc-int, ...}
17:10	Chousuke	right. so it quite literally is a map :P
17:11	mk	is there something like a proper spec for clojure?
17:11	Chousuke	nah
17:11	Chousuke	it's implementation-defined
17:11	Chousuke	by several different implentations
17:11	_andrew_k_	when you change var of symbol x - ns/x changes too
17:11	_andrew_k_	it's the same
17:11	mk	you mean clj and cljs?
17:11	Chousuke	(ie. clojure implementations for different hosts do differ, intentionally)
17:12	aperiodic	mk: have you read through all the side links on clojure.org? they're fairly comprehensive (for the JVM implementation) though they are a bit academic in tone
17:13	mk	_andrew_k_: did you try adding one symbol or the other to the map directly? If it's a normal map, it shouldn't update both in the way you describe
17:13	Chousuke	mk: The way I see it, Clojure has some big ideas at the core and symbiosis with the host is one of them
17:13	Chousuke	so you can't really create a portable spec of clojure that you could implement on several hosts
17:14	Chousuke	because that would conflict with the philosophy of embracing the host.
17:14	mk	aperiodic: I should probably have a look at that - thanks
17:14	technomancy	Chousuke: well, there could; it just wouldn't be practical for building applications
17:14	dnolen_	mk: cljs is actually a pretty interesting case study in in some of the design decisions in Clojure around symbols, var, namespaces
17:14	dnolen_	mk: in CLJS namespaces are indeed just objects, and definitions are just properties on those objects.
17:15	_andrew_k_	https://gist.github.com/2164617
17:15	Chousuke	I guess you don't need vars in cljs
17:15	Chousuke	since it's single-threaded
17:15	dnolen_	mk: all the symbol manipulation and resolution happens in the compiler.
17:16	dnolen_	Chousuke: and JS makes redefinition simple unlike the JVM
17:16	mk	ok wait, are vars just a way to synchronize on key-value pairs without locking the entire namespace map?
17:16	Chousuke	_andrew_k_: I think you misunderstood what I meant
17:16	Chousuke	_andrew_k_: you're not changing the mapping of x in user there, you're redefining the var's value
17:17	Chousuke	_andrew_k_: but you COULD map x to point to the var in user2
17:17	Chousuke	by using eg, use
17:17	dnolen_	mk: vars are also Clojure's mechanism for supporting redefinition on a host designed for a much less dynamic language - Java.
17:19	mk	so they're not so much a theoretical thing, like the way that lists are evaluated, but a component that helps deal with the host?
17:21	Chousuke	I suppose
17:21	Chousuke	though bear in mind that vars are not the only reference type clojure has
17:21	Chousuke	there are refs, agents and atoms as well
17:21	Chousuke	vars are just the default used for globals
17:21	mk	right :)
17:21	technomancy	it's worth noting that vars are the only one for which idiomatic usage does not involve deref
17:22	dnolen_	mk: not completely - they serve a few purposes - dynamically bound thread locals. They also store metadata so useful for introspection
17:22	technomancy	mk: there was a talk on this at clojure/west
17:22	technomancy	until the videos are up you might find the slides helpful? https://github.com/strangeloop/clojurewest2012-slides/blob/master/Andera-Namespaces-Symbols-Vars.zip
17:23	mk	awesome - thanks. Yeah, I've been looking forward to the videos
17:23	dnolen_	mk: that said, they are puzzling - it took me a long time to understand them - but not understanding them doesn't really impair everyday Clojure programming.
17:24	technomancy	yeah, just dive in; you'll figure it out by osmosis eventually
17:24	Bronsa	lol
17:24	patrikkarlin	like in final fantasy :P
17:24	patrikkarlin	only place i heard that word
17:25	Chousuke	:P
17:25	technomancy	yeah, just be sure to use lightning vars against water-based problems and you'll be fine.
17:26	Chousuke	I was ahead of my peers in English classes because I played Final Fantasy games and learned lots of new words from them.
17:29	mk	using a language I don't understand feels like a bit of a grind. But that's probably the only way to do it at the very start
17:30	dnolen_	mk: learning ain't easy
17:30	dnolen_	my initial reaction to JS was close to WTF. I like it alright now.
17:31	bsteuber	in lein2, where do I put dev-dependencies that I want to reuse in every project?
17:31	brehaut_	any language that doesnt feel like a grind at the start probably isnt worth learning either
17:32	BostX	hi all.
17:32	technomancy	bsteuber: that'd be the :user profile
17:32	bsteuber	I tried :profiles {:dev {:dependencies [[...]]}} under :user
17:32	BostX	guys do you know what should I use instead of global-singleton from former clojure.contrib.singleton ??
17:32	lazybot	BostX: What are you, crazy? Of course not!
17:33	mk	the initial curve tends to put me off, but I like the payoff. I spent days with the ecma262-3rd spec, it was great - js is actually a rather elegant language
17:33	technomancy	bsteuber: you don't want :dev there; bring it up a level
17:33	technomancy	:dev is for project.clj files
17:33	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/wiki/Upgrading
17:34	mk	but there's no way I would have read that ugly thing unless I was somewhat into js already
17:36	dnolen_	mk: JS has too many dark corners to call it elegant - but it was influenced by good languages.
17:37	dnolen_	mk: and the combining of OO & FP principles was forward-looking
17:37	amalloy	wow, global-singleton looks like a terrible idea to begin with. you could easily replicate its functionality in a threadsafe way with ##(doc delay) and ##(doc force)
17:37	lazybot	(doc delay) ⇒ "Macro ([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"
17:37	lazybot	(doc force) ⇒ "([x]); If x is a Delay, returns the (possibly cached) value of its expression, else returns x"
17:37	clojurebot	"([x]); If x is a Delay, returns the (possibly cached) value of its expression, else returns x"
17:37	clojurebot	"([& body]); Takes a body of expressions and yields a Delay object that will invoke the body only the first time it is forced (with force or deref/@), and will cache the result and return it on all subsequent force calls. See also - realized?"
17:38	lancepantz	dnolen_: mk: i've been doing some js myself recently, overall i've enjoyed it
17:38	lancepantz	the api is a bit lacking
17:38	lancepantz	but jquery makes up for it, although it does end up looking strange
17:38	bsteuber	technomancy: is there something wrong with https://gist.github.com/2164741 ?
17:39	mk	dnolen_: it has a core that's rather nice, but a lot of bad things happened to it, probably because of how standardization went
17:39	bsteuber	technomancy: it seems midje doesn't find its way into my classpath
17:39	mk	dnolen_: which languages was it influenced by, which were good?
17:40	Bronsa	scheme i guess?
17:40	dnolen_	mk: Scheme & Self
17:41	brehaut_	and java in the wrong ways
17:41	dnolen_	mk: also I'm sure Brendan must have know something about the various 80s OO Schemes
17:42	mk	brehaut_: that turned out for the best, I think - the familiar syntax etc. brought people into a functional language
17:42	bsteuber	technomancy: nevermind, I'm a bit tired :)
17:42	mk	I didn't know that it was influenced by either of those
17:42	bsteuber	technomancy: works now, thank you
17:45	brehaut_	mk, the classical OO notation bolted onto a prototypal OO system has done lasting damage to JS
17:46	technomancy	bsteuber: cool
17:46	mk	the elegant thing about js (I think) is its map chaining, which is used both for prototypes and for scope. The core of the language can be inefficiently implemented in not that many lines of code.
17:47	mk	brehaut_: do you mean the dot notation? obj.foo and obj["foo"] ?
17:47	bsteuber	technomancy: another thing I'm wondering about.. when I switch profiles, I'll have to manually clean stuff that has to be compiled differently, like cljsbuild advanced vs simple
17:47	bsteuber	but of course it's a hard problem, unless you want to clean all the time
17:47	brehaut_	mk, no i mean needing a new keyword, not supporting prototypal operations (till recently or via crockfords functions)
17:48	brehaut_	the inclusion of privileged constructors is a bit horrible in general actually
17:48	bsteuber	it would be great though if leiningen could somehow discover which parts have to be cleaned with the new profile
17:50	technomancy	bsteuber: hm; yeah. maybe some kind of mechanism plugins could use to specify staleness
17:51	technomancy	a staleness predicate that could write checksums of relevant project map entries to disk
17:52	bsteuber	technomancy: sounds cool - but I guess there are more important things on your lein2 list ^^
17:53	technomancy	bsteuber: well, that's something that sounds like it would require some solid design since it could affect a number of 3rd-party plugins
17:53	bsteuber	indeed
17:54	technomancy	bsteuber: feel like starting a github issue or mailing list thread on which to brainstorm?
17:54	bsteuber	technomancy: sure, I'll open one :)
17:55	mk	brehaut_: yeah, all of that wasn't done very well. It seems to be getting patched up now, though.
17:55	bsteuber	technomancy: one more thing - is there a simple way to find out from my (non-plugin) code in which profile I am?
17:55	technomancy	bsteuber: no, I don't see that as a good idea.
17:56	technomancy	bsteuber: consider parallels between user-agent sniffing and checking for specific features.
17:57	bsteuber	technomancy: the problem I'm trying to solve is having a single view deal with both advanced and simple cljs compilation depending on the profile
17:57	bsteuber	my current way is adding a different implementation of the same tiny namespace to the classpath in both profiles
17:57	technomancy	bsteuber: you'd want to check for a specific value within the profile rather than the name of the profile
17:58	dnolen_	mk: it's going to be a while before we see the benefits. Clojure already covers pretty much all the interesting JS.next territory under discussion and way, way more.
17:58	bsteuber	technomancy: and how could that be made available to normal code?
17:58	technomancy	bsteuber: you could have the profile put something in :injections if you must
17:59	technomancy	that should be a seq of forms that get inserted into every eval-in-project call
17:59	technomancy	but there's probably a better way to do this; maybe emezeske understands the problem better than I
18:00	bsteuber	technomancy: possibly I am doing something fundamentally wrong here
18:00	bsteuber	maybe I'll open another discussion in a cljsbuild issue :)
18:01	bsteuber	technomancy: so injections will be evaluated even in compiled code?
18:01	bsteuber	aot, I mean
18:01	technomancy	they will be evaluated while performing AOT, but they don't happen inside the call to clojure.core/compile
18:02	dnolen_	bsteuber: I was actually surprised by the fact that cljsbuild takes a vector instead of a named map of builds.
18:02	dnolen_	emezeske: ^
18:03	emezeske	dnolen_: Yeah, I guess that would make sense, so you could build specific ones by name?
18:04	dnolen_	emezeske: yeah - "lein cljsbuild once :adv"
18:04	technomancy	also probably "lein cljsbuild" should do something useful
18:05	emezeske	dnolen_: I like it... feel free to open a case ^_^
18:05	emezeske	technomancy: That should print out a help message, does it not?
18:06	bsteuber	emezeske: I guess your default solution to multiple views for adv vs nil is not using nil as optimization level?
18:06	bsteuber	the problem is, without the out/ folder being used, the chrome js debugger is way less useful
18:06	technomancy	emezeske: I'd recommend having it do the most commonly-used subtask
18:07	emezeske	technomancy: Hmm, I might have to figure out what that is :). Probably 'cljsbuild once' if I had to guess. But I should measure...
18:07	emezeske	bsteuber: I don't know if I understand the problem fully
18:07	technomancy	once is probably more commonly-invoked just because by nature it needs to be run more often than auto =)
18:08	dnolen_	emezeske: done.
18:08	emezeske	dnolen_: thanks!
18:09	dnolen_	bsteuber: hopefully all of this will be resolved when we start producing source maps
18:09	emezeske	sweet, sweet delicious source maps
18:09	bsteuber	emezeske: I use :optimizations nil and :output-dir together so the js doesn't get compiled in just one file for better debugging
18:10	bsteuber	but that means, I'll have to change the view again for loading goog.base and so on
18:11	emezeske	bsteuber: Ah, I see. I do something similar, but I compile in debug and prod at the same time, and just switch which I include in the views
18:11	emezeske	bsteuber: But either way you do have to change the way the javascript is included
18:12	bsteuber	and that's what I am trying to get rid of
18:12	bsteuber	well, actually I did, but it's really ugly :)
18:13	emezeske	I haven't thought much about how to avoid that, really
18:13	bsteuber	maybe I'm just too lazy :)
18:18	bsteuber	dnolen_: what are source maps?
18:18	dnolen_	bsteuber: everything you ever wanted http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/developertools/sourcemaps/
18:18	dnolen_	bsteuber: you could just always develop in advanced mode. and you'd get sexpr level stepping during debugging.
18:19	emezeske	Source maps fix 99% of my complaints about clojurescript
18:19	bsteuber	cooooool
18:21	bsteuber	will it also help finding out which file is breaking advanced compilation? :)
18:23	bsteuber	dnolen_: by the way, how's your research on predicate dispatch going?
18:24	bsteuber	recently, I've used some sort of poor man's dispatch several times
18:24	dnolen_	bsteuber: moving slowly , though some new steps will land in the next core.match alpha.
18:25	bsteuber	cool, I'll check it out then
18:26	bsteuber	with a problem this hard, slow progress is already awesome..
18:27	dnolen_	emezeske: bsteuber: the main challenge is that I think we'll need to analyze the Closure advanced sourcemap and use that to map to generated JS and then back to ClojureScript
18:27	dnolen_	and use that info to produce our own sourcemap.
18:29	emezeske	Yeah, that is definitely the tricky bit
18:29	emezeske	Two levels of indirection need to be melded into one
18:30	emezeske	Seems like a general purpose sourcemap merging utility could be of use. I wonder if such a tool would be applicable to other languages?
18:31	dnolen_	emezeske: hmmm ... that's not a bad idea, and yes I think it would be applicable - coffeescript will probably need the same thing.
18:32	ibdknox	I looked at it a bit and that was my assessment as well - reconciling the two steps will be the hard part
18:33	emezeske	Bwuaha, if we write the sourcemap merge in clojure, we can sneak clojure into all the other languages' build processes
18:33	dnolen_	ibdknox: I don't think so hard actually, just work.
18:34	ibdknox	dnolen_: yeah, I guess that's a better qualification. None of it looked particularly hard, just time consuming
18:34	emezeske	Seems like we'd want a basic sourcemap library for clojure, then the CLJS compiler could use that, and the merger tool could use it as well
18:34	dnolen_	ibdknox: for example we don't need mappings for intermediate things really - we produce a lot of generated symbols which are irrelevant for debugging.
18:35	ibdknox	also true
18:35	dnolen_	emezeske: yes exactly
18:35	dnolen_	anyways exciting times!
18:35	ibdknox	I was wondering how many problems macro expansion would cause
18:36	emezeske	ibdknox: Ooh, interesting
18:36	ibdknox	haha
18:41	eggsby	if I have a vector of ~things~, and I want to iterate over those ~things~ until some condition is met, and then change that ~thing~ and return the new set, what would be the easiest way?
18:42	eggsby	so like say is5 if the number is 5 turn it into 20 instead where [1 2 3 4 5 6] will return [1 2 3 4 20 6]
18:42	arohner	eggsby: for a vector (or map), you can use update-in
18:42	bsteuber	,(map #(if (= 5 %) 20 %) (range 1 6))
18:43	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 20)
18:43	arohner	(update-in [1 2 3 4 5 6] [5] + 15)
18:43	patrikkarlin	you only whant to change one of the items?
18:43	arohner	,(update-in [1 2 3 4 5 6] [5] + 15)
18:43	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4 5 ...]
18:43	eggsby	ya basically I have 'buckets' and if something can fit in the bucket I want to shove it in there and recur on the rest of the things i'm testing
18:43	mk	,(map #(if (= 5 %) 20 %) (1 2 3 4 5 5 6))
18:43	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
18:44	mk	,(map #(if (= 5 %) 20 %) (list 1 2 3 4 5 5 6))
18:44	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4 20 ...)
18:44	eggsby	thanks that works mk
18:44	mk	it wasn't mine, I was just testing
18:44	mk	I think it fails because it updates all fives, not just the first one it sees
18:44	eggsby	ya
18:45	eggsby	hm
18:45	eggsby	right so map won't work...
18:45	eggsby	time to read documentation for update-tin
18:45	eggsby	er, -t
18:45	mk	arohner's is better, but it updates the rightmost 5
18:46	arohner	,(update-in [1 2 3 4 5 6] [3] + 15)
18:46	clojurebot	[1 2 3 19 5 ...]
18:46	arohner	stupid off-by-one. Actually, mine updates the index of the vector. I didn't read the original problem carefully enough
18:47	eggsby	the index hmm
18:47	eggsby	ya, hm
18:47	eggsby	I wrote some stupid nasty long piece of code full of conds and I don't like it :(
18:47	arohner	(map #(if ...)) sounds like a better fit for 'fix items matching this condition'
18:48	arohner	eggsby: update-in requires vectors or maps (not seqs or lists)
18:49	eggsby	ya, map would work if I could figure out how to say 'only meet this condition once'
18:49	bsteuber	,(split-with #(not= 5 %) [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 5])
18:49	clojurebot	[(1 2 3 4) (5 6 7 8 5)]
18:49	bsteuber	maybe work from here
18:50	mk	eggsby: what you need is to say "the leftmost one that meets this condition". A parallel scan, for example, might meet the condition in the middle of [5 5 5 5 5 5].
18:53	arohner	you could use reduce to match once, but that feels a little more cumbersome than necessary
18:54	arohner	actually, map will do that
18:54	emezeske	eggsby: have you looked at map-indexed?
18:54	eggsby	nope, I'm new to clojure in general. I wrote some 100 line function to do this but its terrible
18:54	eggsby	I feel like I should be able to do it more elegantly
18:54	arohner	(let [found? (atom false)] (map #(if (and (not @found?) ....) (do (do-stuff) (swap! found? (constantly true))
18:55	alexbaranosky	arohner, seems yucky to use an atom for that though, no?
18:55	emezeske	yeah, don't use an atom
18:55	arohner	alexbaranosky: yeah
18:56	alexbaranosky	(update-in [1 2 3 4 5] [(idx-of-first-match [1 2 3 4 5])] + 15)
18:56	bsteuber	eggsby: https://gist.github.com/2165263
18:57	bsteuber	this is what I would write
18:57	alexbaranosky	then just write idx-of-first-match
18:57	mk	the clojure core docs suck. Why isn't there a categorized listing? Like functions that apply to lists, etc.
18:58	alexbaranosky	bsteuber, pretty nice
18:58	alexbaranosky	mk you haven't written it :)
18:58	alexbaranosky	Actually I think there are some cheatsheet style webpages out there
18:59	aperiodic	mk: you mean like http://clojure.org/cheatsheet?
18:59	eggsby	https://refheap.com/paste/1307 is what I've got so far after scrapping my old monster implementation
18:59	eggsby	i'll look at update-in alexbaranosky
19:00	mk	aperiodic: maybe :) I'm looking at http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html though, which is the first result, and it ain't pretty
19:00	eggsby	err, wrapping my head around that bsteuber
19:00	eggsby	thanks you guys
19:01	mk	what's wrong with using alexbaranosky's updatein + indexof?
19:01	technomancy	mk: yeah, that's generated from the docstrings, which are reference material, not introductory
19:01	alexbaranosky	mk you have to write the index of function, though :)
19:01	eggsby	oh mk these are all just new functions to me I have to learn to use them first mk :)
19:01	mk	technomancy: yeah, but that's where I end up when I search
19:01	eggsby	oops, didn't mean to doubleping
19:02	technomancy	mk: yes, google is not kind to the aspiring Clojure learner
19:03	bsteuber	some day we will have something like hoogle using core.logic :)
19:03	technomancy	there's always findfn
19:04	mk	technomancy: that can't be an excuse when we have control over the page it points to
19:04	technomancy	huh?
19:05	technomancy	I don't think restructuring a web site based on referer logs and guesses is a good idea
19:07	mk	just make the "core-api"... friendlier, without making it any less an api.
19:07	aperiodic	a link to the cheat sheet somehere on the core-api page wouldn't be a bad idea
19:08	emezeske	have you guys seen this super-epic cheatsheet? http://homepage.mac.com/jafingerhut/files/cheatsheet-clj-1.3.0-v1.0/cheatsheet-clojuredocs.html
19:08	technomancy	more links to the material people are likely to find helpful is a lot more productive
19:08	mk	or even a notice that says "this page is a mirror of doc, and won't help you find the function you're looking for - hit back and try again" :P
19:08	technomancy	unfortunately no one in here has permission to edit that page
19:09	mk	perhaps someone could send an email
19:10	aperiodic	oh awesome, cheat sheet on steroids
19:10	aperiodic	thanks, emezeske!
19:11	emezeske	^_^
19:11	amalloy	eggsby: 100 lines!? that is way too many lines for any function; i wrote a 50-line function once and it's very embarrassing. if you had a clear description of what you're trying to accomplish (i can't make heads or tails of the comment in your paste) it's probably possible in at most ten lines
19:11	TimMc	technomancy: Not true.
19:11	technomancy	TimMc: ah, would love to be wrong on that one =)
19:11	TimMc	technomancy: Well, replaca has access, maybe not permission. :-P
19:12	technomancy	clojurebot: epigram 71
19:12	clojurebot	No entiendo
19:12	technomancy	clojurebot: 71
19:12	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:12	eggsby	I know amalloy :(
19:12	TimMc	~71
19:12	clojurebot	Excuse me?
19:12	technomancy	dang it clojurebot
19:12	technomancy	"Documentation is like term insurance: It satisfies because almost no one who subscribes to it depends on its benefits." - Perlis
19:12	amalloy	~#71
19:12	clojurebot	71. Documentation is like term insurance: It satisfies because almost no one who subscribes to it depends on its benefits. -- Alan J. Perlis
19:12	technomancy	ah; there we go; thanks amalloy
19:13	mk	clojurebot needs a "did you mean" in place of its gibberish talk
19:14	amalloy	but how else would you learn to say "i don't understand" in welsh?
19:15	technomancy	mk: he does have some kind of fuzzy matching based on edit distance
19:15	mk	maybe we could set it up to say such things on a random timer
19:15	aperiodic	that's what that is
19:17	TimMc	mk: Or better, if the channel has been quiet for an hour?
19:17	mk	much better :)
19:18	mk	as if he'd been thinking about it for a while
19:18	slyrus	yay. after a many month hiatus, clojure/emacs/slime/swank-clojure are all playing nicely (roughly speaking anyway) with CDK and it's 2-d molecule rendering routines.
19:26	bsteuber	technomancy: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/468
19:26	bsteuber	will be interesting to see where this leads
19:28	technomancy	yeah, definitely
19:31	sandover	technomancy: thanks for the tip on lein search --update
19:31	technomancy	sandover: sure; no problem
19:31	technomancy	it sure would be nice if you could update the maven central search indices incrementally rather than blowing them away
19:55	Jetien	Hi! I'd like to (require) a clojure lib that doesn't live in a file but a buffer. Is that - or anything equivalent - possible somehow? do i need to write a class loader for that?
19:58	Zoka	Tehnomancy: Do you have an idea how solve this little annoyance? http://groups.google.com/group/heroku/browse_thread/thread/2c7ed99b65531a75#
19:59	technomancy	Zoka: no, unfortunately it's pretty common to do stuff like echo "\n" >> project.clj && git commit --amend -a && git push --force
19:59	technomancy	once a slug is built it's immutable
20:00	Zoka	Thanks
20:00	technomancy	if you load pomegranate you could do it via ringmon though =)
20:00	technomancy	noir
20:00	technomancy	sorry
20:00	technomancy	http://sunng.info/blog/2012/03/my-favorite-feature-in-leiningen-2/
20:01	Zoka	I will have a look thanks
20:21	Frozenlock	Ok, I know you guys must take it for granted by now, but I think the fact that -keys are funtions of a map- is incredible.
20:21	Frozenlock	And so Oh convenient!
20:22	mk	Frozenlock: and vice-versa, of course
20:23	Frozenlock	Of course :P
20:23	Frozenlock	Equally amazing.
20:23	mk	Frozenlock: I forgot the talk, but there was a sorting example
20:25	erlang2clojure	hello, java/clojure newbie here. Need help getting cascalog to work (within clojure)
20:25	mk	usually, that part in java is something like ... well, you define an anonymous comparator, and it takes about 7 lines of mess. In clojure, the equivalent part of the code is like... :lastname
20:26	erlang2clojure	On ubuntu, created ~/cascalog directory then lein2 repl
20:26	erlang2clojure	ould not locate cascalog/playground__init
20:27	Frozenlock	mk: coming from emacs and CL, I'm baffled by how much java is verbose. I'm happy to see Clojure didn't inherit this characteristic.
20:27	mk	erlang2clojure: try ctrl-f in http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2011-11-05.html
20:29	mk	Frozenlock: it's an adopted child. It inherits the platform without inheriting various language features
20:30	qbg	Though Java does occasionally rear its head
20:31	bsteuber	Frozenlock: but I believe you'll feel about CL in a similar way after using clojure for a while
20:31	bsteuber	of course it's not verbose
20:31	bsteuber	but overly complex
20:32	technomancy	clojurebot: equal rights for functional objects?
20:32	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://home.pipeline.com/hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:32	bsteuber	and somehow not fitting this time
20:32	qbg	bsteuber: More like old
20:32	bsteuber	^^
20:32	mk	looks like a dead link
20:33	technomancy	what!? nooooo
20:33	aperiodic	archive.org?
20:33	technomancy	http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:33	bsteuber	but not just that, I mean, a language which is born out of a commitee merging 5 ancestor languages being pushed by different parties - that has to become messy
20:33	technomancy	anyway, that paper convinced me that CL's notion of equality is broken beyond repair
20:34	erlang2clojure	@mk -- thanks. reading. I had done git clone cascalog to get the cascalog in, then lein deps brought in deps, but lein compile failed. So I figured if I do lein repl within cascalog directory it will just create all that's necessary automagically
20:34	technomancy	clojurebot: forget Equal Rights for Functional Objects \|is\| Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://home.pipeline.com/hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:34	clojurebot	I forgot that Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://home.pipeline.com/hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:34	technomancy	clojurebot: Equal Rights for Functional Objects \|is\| Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://www.pipeline.com/~hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
20:34	clojurebot	Alles klar
20:36	mk	what's the summary of that paper?
20:37	technomancy	defining meaningful equality semantics between mutable objects is impossible
20:37	mk	why?
20:37	clojurebot	mk: because you can't handle the truth!
20:38	qbg	Mutable objects change
20:38	qbg	I love that Clojure has egal
20:38	qbg	Life is so much better than it was in CL...
20:38	mk	sure, but presumably you can define equivalence between what we always refer to as identity
20:38	bsteuber	"two changing things are only equal if they will be equal all the time"
20:39	technomancy	mk: sure; should have said "meaningful equality semantics between different mutable objects"
20:40	technomancy	the paper actually does argue that "identical?" is the only meaningful equality for mutable objects
20:41	mk	so comparing the values of two unequal identities at a point in time is useless?
20:41	technomancy	well... not if they're truly values
20:41	technomancy	because values are immutable by definition
20:42	amalloy	mk: you asked for a summary of the paper, and now it seems like you're quizzing technomancy on all the details. why not just read it?
20:42	technomancy	it's pretty accessible
20:43	mk	amalloy: baker might have a knockdown point that's easy to mention, but which he omits in the abstract because he doesn't want to ruin the fun
20:44	muhoo	how would i start a clojure process as a daemon from lein, with a repl port i can connect to, but no stdin/stdout (no repl on controlling terminal?)
20:44	mk	I get that the paper's saying "you can't have equality", I'm wondering why. I'll skim the paper, though :)
20:44	muhoo	i have :repl-port set in the project.clj
20:46	muhoo	circular... source code?
20:46	qbg	In CL you can read circular structures
20:47	qbg	#1=(1 . #1#) if I remember the syntax
20:47	mk	cyclical?
20:47	qbg	Any graph really
20:47	muhoo	ah, i see, lein run will do it.
20:48	qbg	Quines become too easy
20:50	TimMc	In JS too.
20:50	TimMc	Well, depends on the impl. I think Mozilla's JS does that.
20:52	muhoo	no, that's a fal
20:52	muhoo	fail
20:53	muhoo	lein trampoline run does NOT start up the repl listener, even if :repl-port is set in project.clj
20:53	muhoo	lein trampoline repl DOES start up the socket listener, but only if it has a controlling terminal :-(
20:54	rhc	hmm, is there a good way to get a monotonically increasing timer in clojure?
20:55	rhc	or should i just use java.util.Date
20:55	technomancy	(System/currentTimeMillis) is what you want
20:56	rhc	ah, thank you technomancy
20:56	muhoo	technomancy: any thoughts on how to get a repl on a socket from lein, starting lein without a controlling terminal?
20:57	technomancy	you can just eval-in-project the repl-form stuff from the repl task
20:57	technomancy	with your own task
20:58	muhoo	ah, ok, thanks.
21:03	TimMc	rhc: There is also a nanos timer that guarantees better precision but no accuracy
21:04	rhc	TimMc: i saw that, i also laughed at the caveat
21:04	rhc	Differences in successive calls that span greater than approximately 292 years (263 nanoseconds) will not accurately compute elapsed time due to numerical overflow.
21:04	TimMc	2^63
21:04	rhc	i like to think my programs will be around for awhile... but i'm also realistic :)
21:04	TimMc	clipboard format conversion fail :-)
21:05	rhc	ah, yeah, on the site the 63 is shifted vertically :)
21:05	rhc	superscripted
21:08	muhoo	hmm, not quite
21:08	muhoo	if i start clojure.main/repl from inside the project, the socket doesn't start
21:09	muhoo	ok, eval-in-project. gonna have to dive deep, looks like.
21:11	mstump	given an uberjar I created via lein how can I invoke some class? the machine doesn't have lein installed, if it did I could just use that.
21:13	muhoo	mstump: i think the classes show up if you unzip the jar and loook at it
21:13	muhoo	like lancet$untar__405.class , those ugly names, you can call from java i bet
21:14	mstump	will that avoid "Failed to load Main-Class manifest attribute from"
21:22	mephist0	hi there: i thought (reduce + 1 {:a 1, :b 2}) should return 4 but it says "clojure.lang.MapEntry cannot be cast to java.lang.Number". Is there a function capable for this? Thanx
21:23	ibdknox	,(reduce + 1 (vals {:a 1 :b 2}))
21:23	clojurebot	4
21:25	mephist0	<ibdknox>: thank you very much.
21:39	mephist0	,(if true "yes im a bot")
21:39	clojurebot	"yes im a bot"
21:41	brehaut_	,"values are expression too"
21:41	clojurebot	"values are expression too"
21:42	cjfrisz	,"Functions are values."
21:42	clojurebot	"Functions are values."
21:44	ibdknox	,:scooby-doo?
21:44	clojurebot	:scooby-doo?
21:45	scriptor	,(if ((fn [] true)) "clojurebot does functions!" "No it doesn't :()
21:45	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading string>
21:45	scriptor	,(if ((fn [] true)) "clojurebot does functions!" "No it doesn't :(")
21:45	clojurebot	"clojurebot does functions!"
21:45	scriptor	whee
21:48	cafesofie	,(list (take 48 (cycle (str (Math/sqrt -2)))) "Batman!")
21:48	clojurebot	((\N \a \N \N \a ...) "Batman!")
21:48	cafesofie	aww, truncated :(
21:49	aperiodic	,(list (take 16 (cycle [(str (Math/sqrt -2))])) "Batman!")
21:49	clojurebot	(("NaN" "NaN" "NaN" "NaN" "NaN" ...) "Batman!")
21:50	cafesofie	the original haskell was better, but after a brief attempt i couldn't translate it
21:50	cafesofie	((++" Batman!") . take 48 . cycle . show) (0/0)
21:51	ivan	failed port, you're supposed to get 17 NaNs ;)
21:51	aperiodic	cafesofie: the character literals were because you're passing the string itself to cycle, so it's being treated as a list
21:52	cafesofie	aperiodic: yeah once i hit the absence of 'show' i just gave up on translating it :)
22:00	scriptor	hmm, almost there...
22:00	aperiodic	,(apply str (concat ((comp (partial take 17) repeat) (Math/sqrt -1)) [" Batman"]))
22:00	clojurebot	"NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN Batman"
22:01	aperiodic	unfortunately the succinctness of Haskell's point-free syntax is hard to beat
22:01	aperiodic	though i remember amalloy showing me a clojure DSL that came close
22:03	arohner	does paredit break for anyone else, when there is a paren in a comment? i.e. ;; (
22:04	scriptor	,(->> [(Math/sqrt -2)] cycle (take 16) (reduce str) (#(str %1 " Batman!")))
22:04	clojurebot	"NaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaNNaN Batman!"
22:05	scriptor	somewhat close to the haskell implementation, to make it cleaner you'd use join from clojure.string and some existing function to flip arguments instead of that ugly anonymous function at the end
22:05	aperiodic	of course, the threading macro!
22:05	scriptor	:)
22:19	cgag	i'm messing around with clojurescript, using noir/crate/jay, when I try to create some html using crate/html, then append it to a div, it only shows up if it's a single tag
22:19	TimMc	arohner: It can happen, yeah.
22:19	cgag	for example appending (crate/html [:p "hello"]) works, while (crate/html [:p "hello"] [:p "goodbye]), does not
22:20	lancepantz	cgag: you are missing a '"'
22:20	cgag	anyone have any experience with those libs? also if i should be in a clojurescript chanel let me know
22:20	lancepantz	if you had a compiler error, that's why
22:20	cgag	that was just a typo, i have it in my code
22:20	lancepantz	ah, k :)
22:21	lancepantz	but yeah, not familiar with them
22:25	m0smith	I have a noir/ring/jetty question
22:25	m0smith	hi all
22:31	m0smith	hello?
22:31	clojurebot	BUENOS DING DONG DIDDLY DIOS, fRaUline m0smith
22:32	cgag	hi
22:33	m0smith	I have a question about using JNDI with noir/ring/jetty. Where or where would I find some pointers?
22:33	unlink	What is the conventional way to scope the lifetime of a resource in Clojure? In my case, I am okay with lexically scoping my resource management, but I would prefer not to bake a new macro for each kind of resource I am closing.
22:34	ibdknox	cgag: you'd need to create them separately or wrap them in a container of some kind
22:38	weavejester	m0smith: Isn't JNDI orthagonal to Ring?
22:39	m0smith	weavejester: how so?
22:40	weavejester	m0smith: Well, JNDI is just a directory service, right? It could be accessed from a GUI, a CLI, or from a web app without the back end changing.
22:40	weavejester	m0smith: Why would you need anything special for Ring/Noir?
22:40	cgag	ah ok, doing something like [:div [:p "hello"] [:p "goodbye"]] worked
22:41	m0smith	Just wondering how to enable it in the underlying jetty
22:41	m0smith	Since Jetty is embedded I am having a hard time finding how to get it to work
22:41	weavejester	m0smith: Jetty is a web server. How would JNDI be enabled?
22:42	weavejester	m0smith: Do you mean using JNDI for basic auth or something like that?
22:42	m0smith	weavejester: no, for database connections
22:43	weavejester	m0smith: But the web server has nothing to do with database connections
22:43	weavejester	m0smith: Usually anyway
22:43	weavejester	m0smith: There might be some weirdness in the Java web stack I'm unaware of.
22:43	ibdknox	why aren't you using JDBC anyways?
22:43	m0smith	weavejester: I want my app to be able to rely on the container, be it Jetty, Tomcat, or Glassfish to use JNDI to retrieve the data source
22:44	m0smith	Iibdknox: I am using JDBC (hibernate actually)
22:44	m0smith	ibdknox: By moving the data base connection info into JNDI, I can deploy my app on several different servers
22:45	weavejester	m0smith: Are you interfacing with a legacy Java app, then?
22:45	cemerick	m0smith: JNDI isn't in-scope for ring. You should just use the usual routes for configuring it (i.e. InitialContext, etc). You're going to need to use .war deployment and each container's specific configuration bits though.
22:46	cemerick	JNDI is crazy-overkill for nearly everything IMO, but to each his own.
22:46	m0smith	It is a new Noir based app
22:46	m0smith	In my case it works out nice to be able to separate the database configuration from the app
22:46	weavejester	If it's completely new, you should probably stay weeeeeell away from JNDI.
22:46	cemerick	In that case, just use env vars or system properties for your JDBC props.
22:47	weavejester	I prefer env vars myself. :)
22:47	m0smith	I am not sure if I can do that on jelastic
22:47	cemerick	I quite dislike env vars, but, yeah, sure. :-)
22:47	weavejester	JNDI is very much a Java thing, and not very "Clojurey"
22:47	ibdknox	env var for mode + config maps = win ;)
22:47	cemerick	It's not even a Java thing, really. It's easy to avoid it, regardless of the language you're using.
22:47	m0smith	It is, but it is also well supported on all the platforms
22:48	ibdknox	m0smith: what exactly does it provide you
22:48	ibdknox	I can definitely deploy to all the things you mentioned without jndi
22:48	cemerick	weavejester: I wonder if I can reopen the notion of optionally getting e.g. :servlet-request into request maps in the jetty adapter with you?
22:49	m0smith	ibdknox: I would like to know if oyu will share. My goal is to not have to change the WAR file regardless of where it is deployed
22:49	cemerick	I see it's come up before on the list. I ended up using hooke to get it into my request maps, so I could use a library that required an HttpServletRequest as a method parameter. :-(
22:49	weavejester	Hmm...
22:49	ibdknox	m0smith: connecting to the DB has nothing to do with the war file?
22:49	cemerick	m0smith: system properties FTW :-)
22:50	weavejester	Maybe if it was an option… by default turned off...
22:50	cemerick	yeah
22:51	cemerick	I didn't mind using a hook, but it'd get a lot messier if I happened to need the response (!).
22:51	m0smith	ibdknox: The code needs to be able to find the database connection, even if it is at a different URL
22:51	weavejester	I don't want to encourage HttpServletRequest use, but sometimes when all your fellow libraries are doing it, you need to give into peer pressure.
22:51	cemerick	The odd thing to me is that it's the default in defservice, but totally absent in the jetty adapter.
22:51	ibdknox	m0smith: so just have a couple of different config objects and read an env var to determine which to use
22:51	ibdknox	m0smith: the only thing you fundamentally need to know is "what mode am I in?"
22:52	ibdknox	everything after that can be handled by the app
22:52	weavejester	cemerick: Well, defservice means you're interfacing with some legacy Java servlet container
22:53	weavejester	cemerick: Whilst an adapter is supposed to be free of that, or at least pretend its not there.
22:53	weavejester	cemerick: As you can't rely on an adapter being built on top of a servlet container like Jetty
22:53	weavejester	cemerick: And you should be able to switch adapters without changing your code.
22:54	cemerick	OK, I can see that. I had always thought of the defservice/adapter distinction as one of container vs. containerless deployment.
22:54	m0smith	ibdknox: I am not sure how I feel about that .... Basically recreating the functionality that JNDI provides
22:55	ibdknox	lol
22:55	cemerick	FWIW, here's the janky API that requires the actual servlet req: https://code.google.com/p/jopenid/source/browse/trunk/src/main/java/org/expressme/openid/OpenIdManager.java#86
22:55	cemerick	bleh :-\|
22:55	ibdknox	m0smith: okidoke, good luck with JNDI - I literally know nothing about it :(
22:56	cemerick	weavejester: anyway, just a data point. The workaround isn't tough, of course.
22:56	ibdknox	fwiw, the funtionality we're talking about here is like 2 calls?
22:56	ibdknox	so I'm not sure I understand the reservation, but to each his own :)
22:56	weavejester	It looks like jelastic is very "old-school Java"
22:57	weavejester	No 12-factor apps there
22:57	cemerick	m0smith: JNDI is basically a glorified key/value map. Not a lot special going on.
22:57	m0smith	weavejester: It is. I am creating a noir webapp and deploying to glassfish
22:57	weavejester	It doesn't appear as if you can set environment variables in jelastic
22:57	weavejester	Which is a little crazy.
22:58	m0smith	weavejester: exactlym hence the JNDI configuration
22:58	weavejester	m0smith: Yeah, I can see why you're doing it now
22:58	weavejester	m0smith: It looks like it's the way jelastic encourages
22:59	m0smith	weavejester: and to be honest, I have been writing Java webapps for a long time and it just makes sense to me
22:59	weavejester	m0smith: But hang on, there's a Java example on how to use it.
22:59	m0smith	weavejester: use what?
22:59	weavejester	m0smith: http://jelastic.com/docs/connection-to-db-via-jndi
23:00	m0smith	weavejester: Yes, my question is how to enable JNDI in jetty under ring. I know how to do it in a standalone jetty
23:00	weavejester	(-> (InitialContext.) (.lookup "java:comp/env/jdbc/jelasticDb") (.getConnection))
23:01	weavejester	That apparent gets you your database connection
23:01	weavejester	And that should be it.
23:02	weavejester	As cemerick said, it's just a key-value lookup.
23:02	m0smith	it is. Unfortuntely it is not unabled in jetty by default and the lookup throws an exception
23:02	lancepantz	whoa whoa whoa, wtf is this http://www.techworld.com.au/article/419328/clojure_inventor_hickey_now_aims_android/?fp=16&fpid=1
23:02	m0smith	enabled I mean
23:03	lancepantz	did i miss something?
23:03	cemerick	lancepantz: ?
23:03	cemerick	m0smith: so deploy a war into jelastic and you have standalone jetty/tomcat/whatever?
23:04	cemerick	Dunno, a host that requires JNDI for simple stuff is a host that I'd avoid. shrug
23:04	lancepantz	cemerick: rich is targeting android?
23:04	m0smith	cemerik: exactly, but I like to do my inital testing using "lein run" which starts up in jetty
23:04	weavejester	m0smith: Oh, the configuration comes from web.xml...
23:04	cemerick	lancepantz: There's various tweaks that have been on the table for a while for android. I have no idea how that tangent in the interview ended up being the headline.
23:05	m0smith	weavejester: exactly
23:05	weavejester	m0smith: Hm. You might be on your own here. I need to get to sleep :)
23:05	cemerick	Probably the one that could get the most juice for the piece, I guess.
23:05	lancepantz	cemerick: yeah, i just noticed that too as i actually read it, all he says is "people are working on it"
23:05	m0smith	weavejester: thanks, just hoping someone know
23:05	m0smith	how to configure jetty
23:05	lancepantz	just a sensationlized headline
23:05	weavejester	I'm inclined to agree with cemerick, though.
23:05	cemerick	yeah
23:05	cemerick	and a roughly-edited interview to boot
23:06	weavejester	I'd avoid jelastic until it supports a third way aside from hard coding the database or using JNDI
23:06	cemerick	I've deployed to a lot of hosts, but never heard of one that required JNDI. That's nuts, even for a Java app.
23:07	m0smith	ok, thanks for the advice
23:07	cemerick	All FWIW, of course. :-)
23:07	cemerick	and worth every penny! :-D
23:10	m0smith	lol
23:42	cemerick	emezeske: that's rough (re: your ML post, which ironically arrived after 24 hours) :-(
23:42	muhoo	heh, running a network connected repl from lein trampoline repl via a systemd startup service, it looks like this in ps: https://refheap.com/paste/1313
23:44	muhoo	my guess is that's the whole repl as source code
23:49	emezeske	cemerick: Heh, thanks :)
23:49	lancepantz	yes
23:50	emezeske	cemerick: Oh well, I'm not moderated in here (yet) !
23:50	cemerick	There is an "always allow" option in the moderation panel…
23:50	cemerick	emezeske: you'll always be welcome here :-)
23:51	cemerick	(there's no op for the channel anyway)
23:51	emezeske	Hah
23:52	cemerick	well, there is one, but shrug
23:55	cemerick	nah, he's with the Allies :-P
23:55	cemerick	emezeske: did you enjoy the conf?
23:56	emezeske	cemerick: Most definitely! It was very cool to see the people behind the IRC handles :)
23:56	emezeske	Excellent talks, all around
23:56	lynaghk	Too many cabbies demanding cash, I heard...
23:56	emezeske	Including a certain talk about what sucks about clojure ^_^
23:56	cemerick	heh
23:56	emezeske	lynaghk: Seriously! Jerks!
23:57	cemerick	lynaghk: what happened?
23:57	cemerick	emezeske: I was honestly happy that I got out of the room without being barraged. :-)
23:57	lynaghk	cemerick: emezeske and I shared a cab, and the guy just wanted cash. emezeske was unnecessarily upset about it, I thought = P
23:58	emezeske	cemerick: Nah, it was one of those "we need to talk" kind of things, where you know it must be said
23:58	cemerick	our cabbie had a square, so that worked well.
23:58	lynaghk	cemerick: I'm not so excited about that kind of future after the hotel lobby iPad refused to let me sign out
23:58	cemerick	Yeah, I hope nothing presented was super-controversial.
23:58	cemerick	Debatable maybe, but…
23:59	cemerick	So that's what those things were for. I always check the in-room TV, and then talk to the desk otherwise.
23:59	lynaghk	oh, no
23:59	lynaghk	I mean sign out of gmail
23:59	lynaghk	the damn machine had an alert from my calendar on it the next day