#clojure – 2012-03-21

2012-03-21

00:03	amalloy	aperiodic: (comp not not x) is (comp boolean x)
00:06	aperiodic	amalloy: indeed it is. thanks for the tip.
00:26	fhd	I'm migrating an older project to Clojure 1.3 but can't find a replacement for clojure.contrib.duck-streams/to-byte-array, ideas?
00:28	jayunit100	hi ::>
00:28	jayunit100	not sure what :main does in leiningen.
00:28	wmealing	says which function is the one to start ?
00:29	wmealing	when you execute the jar ?
00:29	wmealing	(just taking a punt, from what ive seen so far)
00:29	wmealing	s/execute/run
00:29	jayunit100	oh ok
00:30	jayunit100	well... kinda
00:30	jeremyheiler	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L77
00:30	jayunit100	ahhh
00:30	jayunit100	ok
00:32	jayunit100	oh ... and another silly question.
00:33	jayunit100	how do you exit the repl to restart it ? I am starting to feel bad about overusing Ctrl-C....
00:37	_ato	nothing wrong with using Ctrl-C
00:38	amalloy	Ctrl-D, though, just like any well-behaved console app (Ctrl-Z on windows probably works)
00:44	arohner	jayunit100: you can also do (System/exit 0) if it makes you feel better. (but there's nothing wrong w/ Ctrl-c)
00:46	jayunit100	cool.
00:48	jayunit100	hmmmm okay.. heres another low hanging fruit :)
00:48	jayunit100	if I have a list... than clearly, each element is a clojure.lang.Symbol
00:48	jayunit100	(type (nth '(a v c) 0))
00:49	jayunit100	now -- can i search for a string which "looks" like one of those symbols ?
00:55	wmealing	jayunit100, you can iterate over them with a few different functions and write your own compare.. i guess
00:59	amalloy	jayunit100: your if/then strikes me as nonsensical
00:59	jayunit100	?
01:00	jayunit100	oh haha
01:00	jayunit100	yeah... my bad.
01:00	jayunit100	if I have a list '(a b c) ... than clearly, each element is a clojure.lang.Symbol
01:00	jayunit100	better @amalloy ?
01:01	amalloy	yep, sounds accurate
01:15	emezeske	Arrgg, I know the answer is "no" but can someone please un-moderate me on the clojure google group?
01:15	emezeske	I just biffed the tab and enter keys and posted half a message
01:15	emezeske	But I don't get to see it for ??? hours, so I can't post a reply that contains the rest of my message
01:18	wmealing	we've all done something equally stupid if not more so, don't be too hard on yourself.
01:19	emezeske	I'm not being hard on myself, I'm just frustrated that my message goes into a black hole for like 20+ hours now
01:19	emezeske	So I can't fix it
01:19	wmealing	ah
01:39	slyrus	is there a better svg lib then the freehep stuff these days?
01:39	slyrus	technomancy: you'll be pleased to hear that I finally got clojure-jack-in working :)
01:44	lynaghk	slyrus, if you just want to write svg itself, check out c2: http://keminglabs.com/c2/
01:45	lynaghk	(or just use hiccup directly)
01:52	slyrus	lynaghk: thanks, but I need freehep's SVGGraphics2D
02:24	sorenmacbeth	is there a way to enumerate all of the bound vars in a namespace from the repl?
02:30	emezeske	,(doc ns-publics)
02:30	clojurebot	"([ns]); Returns a map of the public intern mappings for the namespace."
02:30	emezeske	sorenmacbeth: ^ might be helpful?
02:31	aperiodic	there's also ns-aliases
02:31	aperiodic	hmm, that's not what i thought it was
02:33	aperiodic	(doc ns-maps)
02:33	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
02:33	aperiodic	,(doc ns-maps)
02:33	clojurebot	Excuse me?
02:34	hiredman_	(doc ns-map)
02:34	clojurebot	"([ns]); Returns a map of all the mappings for the namespace."
02:34	aperiodic	thanks, hiredman_
02:47	sorenmacbeth	hiredman: cheers
02:50	jtoy	hi tomoj I'm still playing around with your example, i get different results for some reason
03:11	tomoj	jtoy: are you using different data?
03:11	jtoy	tomoj: yeah
03:13	jtoy	tomoj: all my final results print out to 1, I saved the first query to file and did some counts by hand and see the correct data though, still investigating
03:16	tomoj	good luck, gotta go
03:16	jtoy	tomoj: nice, i rechecked all my data and found the error is with my data
03:16	jtoy	thanks!
04:22	muhoo	muaahahaha https://refheap.com/paste/1247
04:23	DerGuteMoritz	Raynes: thanks!
04:59	jtoy	how can I run a single command that I normally run in the repl and have it exit immediately? I just want to be able to do "time leon repl command" so i can see how long it takes to run
05:04	andrew_kndrtvch_	you can check http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/time
05:11	jtoy	andrew_kndrtvch_: thanks
05:30	jtoy	why if i run lein repl on 1 machine it downloads data to lib and loads the repl, on another machine it doesn't create a lib dir and my code doesn't run
05:31	jtoy	the code is exactly the same, both pulled from git
05:31	ejackson	usually you need to run lein deps to get the lib dir populated
05:31	ejackson	then lein run will work
05:32	raek	jtoy: maybe you have an old version on the second machine
05:32	raek	deps is performed automatically if lib is empty in more recent versions
05:32	raek	versions of lein
05:33	jtoy	i just upgraded lein on both machines
05:33	jtoy	and still don't get lib on one machine
05:33	raek	do you get an error?
05:34	jtoy	no, just return immediately
05:34	jtoy	hmm
05:34	raek	which command? "lein repl"?
05:34	jtoy	the broken machine gives me a much newer version: Leiningen 2.0.0-preview2 on Java 1.6.0_31 Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM
05:34	raek	in leiningen 2 the lib dir is not used
05:35	raek	the jars are used directly from .m2 instead
05:35	raek	but the program should behave the same
05:35	jtoy	hmm, how can i downgrade to the older one to see if that fixes it
05:36	raek	there are some breaking changes in lein 2
05:36	raek	that's why I think most people keep both versions around
05:37	jtoy	im a clojure newbie
05:40	jtoy	I'm copying my old one over, thanks
05:41	babilen	jtoy: You essentially want to follow the installation instructions on https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen not on http://leiningen.org/ -- The difference is that the former asks you to download https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/stable/bin/lein (i.e. the stable version) not https://raw.github.com/technomancy/leiningen/preview/bin/lein (i.e. the preview/development version of leiningen 2)
05:42	raek	version 2 has not officially been released yet, so it can be wise to stay with version 1 until it is released
05:42	jtoy	i had previsouly just followed the instructions on github
05:49	twem2	the github instructions pointed to the preview version as well for a bit
05:54	Raynes	raek: lein 2 is generally stable enough for use.
05:55	Raynes	People using lein 1 just means more people that are confused and more projects to move when lein 2 final is released.
05:56	Raynes	The best bet is to install them both side by side and use lein 2 whenever possible, especially for new projects.
05:56	Raynes	But anyways, I need sleep.
07:48	pandeiro	is there an analog of filter, something that takes a fn and coll and returns any items that gave nil/false?
07:52	Hali_303	hi! what is the easiest way to copy the sexp at the cursor to the clipboard in emacs?
07:53	xeqi	pandeiro: remove
07:53	Hali_303	also, is there a shortcut for auto-formating?
07:53	dan_b	i use C-M-k C-y
07:53	dan_b	cursor at beginning of sexp
07:54	dan_b	also - C-M-t (transpose sexp) is the best thing ever
07:54	jakemcc`	Hali_303: if you are using emacs-starter-kit C-c n for indenting
07:54	dan_b	once you've acquired the habit, you will curse life evey time you're using a non-sexpy language that doesn't support it
07:55	Hali_303	ok, i take that as a warning :) thanks!
07:56	pandeiro	xeqi: never woulda found it, thanks
08:03	clgv	$findfn odd? [1 2 3 4 5 6] [2 4 6]
08:03	lazybot	[clojure.core/remove]
08:03	clgv	pandeiro: ^^
08:12	pandeiro	clgv: neat trick, findfn
09:03	yoklov	anybody know what: "recur arg for primitive local: horizontal_QMARK_ is not matching primitive, had: Object, needed: boolean, compiling:" means? I can fix it by wrapping the indicated argument with (boolean), but that's hardly ideal...
09:09	nDuff	Do sorted maps allow fast random access? I'm looking for a data structure where I can quickly find the keys which sort both immediately before and immediately after a given item if there's no exact match.
09:14	yoklov	i don't really know the details of the implementation, but i'd be surprised if they favored access from any particular area over another. They are still maps after all...
09:19	yoklov	so yeah, i'd assume quick random access. iirc, what you're talking about is known as the nearest-neighbor problem, so you might want to look into that if you run into performance issues (there could be a fast algorithm that applies to what you're doing).
09:25	clgv	nDuff: Clojure's sorted-map is implemented as PersistentTreeMap
09:26	clgv	yoklov: you have a primitive binding in your loop-statement
09:27	yoklov	and that means I need to continuously cast to boolean when calling recur?
09:28	yoklov	I'm binding initially with "(= (rand-int 2) 0)", and call recur with "(= (rand-int 10) 0)". if one of those is a primitive, i would have assumed both were...
09:31	clgv	yoklov: can you ~paste the whole snippet?
09:31	clgv	~paste
09:31	clojurebot	paste is http://gist.github.com/
09:33	yoklov	its a fairly beastly function but here: https://gist.github.com/2146893
09:35	clgv	yoklov: are you using clojure 1.3?
09:35	yoklov	yup
09:37	yoklov	changed it so it should be runnable, but honestly i'm not that concerned
09:38	yoklov	its annoying because wrapping (not= …) with (boolean) is ugly but if its whats needed thats fine.
09:38	andrew_kndrtvch_	how to run lein2 on windows ? with script from github i have got this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6802923/gyazo/1332336452.png
09:40	jkkramer	yoklov: just a guess, but it might be due to = being inlined while not= is not
09:40	clgv	yoklov: ok, looking at the source of 'not= and '= - I see that '= is an inline function and hence returns a primitive boolean. 'not= is no inline and and thus can only return a boxed boolean
09:40	jkkramer	jinx
09:41	clgv	:P
09:42	yoklov	huh.
09:42	yoklov	presumably not can't either?
09:42	yoklov	hrmmmm. nope
09:43	clgv	yoklow: 'not is no inline function either
09:43	pandeiro	searching through a large collection of maps for a value - is there a better way than filter?
09:43	yoklov	oh
09:43	yoklov	fixed it
09:43	yoklov	(= 0 (rand-int 2)) is the same as (not= 0 (rand-int 2)), but isn't a primitive
09:44	yoklov	awesome, thanks
09:44	jkkramer	yoklov: see 'zero?'
09:44	yoklov	oh, right
09:45	yoklov	but then it's (not (zero?…))
09:45	clgv	hmmm, imo the doc-string should indicate :inline
09:45	jkkramer	forgoing zero? isn't a sin
09:45	yoklov	also zero? gives me the same problem as before
09:46	jkkramer	it's inlined too
09:46	yoklov	then i can't use it here
09:46	yoklov	for whatever reason
09:47	yoklov	in my defense this is a port from some oldish scheme code i wrote, where there's no 'zero?'
09:47	clgv	yoklov: (not= % 0) is equivalent to (> % 0) if you have only positive integers
09:47	yoklov	of course, but you don't think the first is slightly more readable?
09:47	yoklov	when that really is what you're checking
09:48	clgv	but '< and '> are inlined ^^
09:48	jkkramer	pandeiro: filter or for are probably what you want, but depends on the circumstance
09:48	clgv	I guess there should be ticket to point at that issue.
09:50	yoklov	hm. i can fill one out later today, i actually have to run right now
09:50	yoklov	thanks for the help!
09:51	andrew_kndrtvch_	so.. now can anybody help me ?)
09:51	andrew_kndrtvch_	how to run lein2 on windows ? with script from github i have got this https://dl.dropbox.com/u/6802923/gyazo/1332336452.png
09:55	clgv	andrew_kndrtvch_: maybe you can add the leiningen standalone jar to your classpath manually. have you checked if it was downloaded?
09:58	andrew_kndrtvch_	yes
09:58	andrew_kndrtvch_	but it doesn't really contains this class
09:58	andrew_kndrtvch_	so .. or there are some dependency exists or the script is wrong
10:01	clgv	andrew_kndrtvch_: the script seems wrong. in preview 2 of lein there is no leiningen/core.clj indeed
10:03	clgv	andrew_kndrtvch_: so this seems wrong then >> clojure.main -e "(use 'leiningen.core)(-main)"
10:04	clgv	andrew_kndrtvch_: the linux script has >> clojure.main -m leiningen.core.main
10:05	ericmoritz\0	is there a easy way to read n bytes from a bufferedreader?
10:10	raek	ericmoritz\0: use a BufferedInputStream. readers are for textual data and input streams are for binary data.
10:13	pandeiro	jkkramer: I'm cleaning up typos in collections of 5000+ maps, referencing them against another large collection, so i am iterating through the reference collection for every word to remove matches
10:46	Scorchin	Is there a curses-like library for Clojure available? E.g. to build my own REPL-like app
10:50	fdaoud	I'm starting out with ClojureScript and one thing I find very appealing is to use Clojure data structures instead of JSON to communicate data between server and client. I'm finding a ton of CLJS stuff but I can't seem to find a simple example of this.
10:50	ohpauleez	lynaghk: ping
10:50	fdaoud	the data still has to go "over the wire"..
10:50	fdaoud	and it is still ajax..
10:50	fdaoud	so I'm having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around how that would work.
10:51	ejackson	fdaoud: I give an example of this on my blog: http://boss-level.com/?p=102
10:53	ejackson	fdaoud: no, I'm lying.... it was somewhere else....
10:53	TimMc	You just print/read, right?
10:53	ejackson	sorry: http://boss-level.com/?p=119
10:54	fdaoud	ejackson: thanks, I was going to say, doesn't seem to be what I am looking for.. nice tutorial though, definitely looking at that too sometime soon
10:54	ejackson	Yeah, the second link is, I think, what you're after. Now I'll stop with the shameless self promotion.
10:54	fdaoud	TimMc: as a hello world maybe, but eventually want to render a view from the received data
10:55	TimMc	Not sure what you're asking, then.
10:55	TimMc	How is pr-str/read-string any different architecturally from toJSON/readJSON or whatever?
10:56	sparkleshy	why is throw a special form? ...couldn't it just be implemented with a bit of java?
10:56	ejackson	TimMc: saves you writing the serialisation functions more than once
10:57	fdaoud	ejackson: thanks! that's exactly what I was looking for. s/stop shameless self promotion/please continue helpful contributions/ !
10:57	fdaoud	ejackson: trust me I googled.. just not for the right terms I guess :/
11:06	TimMc	sparkleshy: If it were a function, it would itself show up in all the stack traces.
11:07	hhutch	fdaoud: the fetch library lets you do this pretty easily
11:08	fdaoud	hhtutch: from ibdknox?
11:08	hhutch	https://github.com/ibdknox/fetch the example there are passing clojure structures not json
11:09	fdaoud	hhutch: thanks-- and btw from all my googling I found your cljs-clojure-demos, thanks for putting those up
11:09	hhutch	fdaoud: :)
11:09	hhutch	i need to finish them
11:13	fdaoud	hhutch: definitely will look at fetch, but want to learn the core first.. just like I found it better to learn ring before learning compojure before learning noir :)
11:13	Lajla	You're tearing up my heart when I'm with youuuuu
11:13	Lajla	but when we are apart I feel it tooooo
11:13	Lajla	And no matter what we do I feel the paaain
11:14	Lajla	with or without you
11:14	raek	sparkleshy: I guess you could delegate throw to a clojure function (implemented in java) or to a java method. you couldn't do that with catch, though.
11:15	raek	but why not let the compiler generate the bytecode instruction for throw instead of a call to the throw funcion/method?
11:16	Lajla	raek, my love.
11:16	Lajla	&"I worship His Shadow"
11:16	lazybot	⇒ "I worship His Shadow"
11:17	raek	but yeah, I guess you could have throw as a function and let the compiler optimize it the way it optimizes plus, minus, and friends
11:21	edw	This may seem weird, but I'm at a start-up in NYC as the product lead and I'm looking for a CTO, VP of eng., or "just" someone who's talented at stats and big data. Clojure love would be a big plus.
11:28	fdaoud	ejackson: what are pr-str and read-string?
11:28	TimMc	fdaoud: doc 'em
11:29	TimMc	edw: Cool. What industry?
11:30	ohpauleez	edw: Where in NYC are you? Tutorspree is all about the Clojure love
11:30	ohpauleez	also, the Clojure community here is pretty big
11:31	fdaoud	TimMc: yeah it wasn't working in my cljs repl
11:31	TimMc	sparkleshy: Actually, throw can't be a function, because it needs to have control over the evaluation of its body.
11:31	TimMc	fdaoud: (use 'clojure.repl)
11:31	TimMc	Are you in SLIME?
11:31	edw	Our office is in SoHo. (I live in West Village.)
11:32	edw	TimMc: Advertising, of course.
11:32	fdaoud	TimMc: no, just straight-up command line
11:32	edw	ohpauleez: Who/what is Tutorspree?
11:33	ohpauleez	We're a YC-backed startup here in NYC (our office is in tribeca). I just finished up a talk at Clojure/West on Clojure-powered startups
11:33	TimMc	fdaoud: Huh. Leiningen's repl should include that by default...
11:33	fdaoud	TimMc: no biggie. Anyway, I think I get it, but obviously you still need a string representation to go over the wire. So pr-str and read-string could be json-str and read-json and it wouldn't change much, or am I missing something?
11:34	TimMc	fdaoud: Anyway, pr is the Clojure serializer and read is the deserializer. pr-str and read-string are the string counterparts (instead of streams).
11:34	ohpauleez	edw: ^ and I'd go to the Clojure Meetups at Google. You'll get connected to a lot of people. Are you personally using Clojure now? Why have you selected Clojure to tackle your problem?
11:34	TimMc	fdaoud: Using json limits your expressiveness and may require custom (de)serialization.
11:36	fdaoud	TimMc: I see. So they are just more powerful and clojure-adapted ways to make the data go through. Once back into Clojure data format, you can use them as regular data structures in ClojureScript instead of (not as powerful) objects in JavaScript.
11:36	fdaoud	very nice.
11:37	fdaoud	TimMc: thank you for your patience, I am just trying to wrap my head around it all..
11:37	TimMc	fdaoud: More precisely, this is the native string representation of Clojure.
11:37	TimMc	&(pr-str '[1 2 (a :b #{c})])
11:37	lazybot	⇒ "[1 2 (a :b #{c})]"
11:37	edw	ohpauleez: I use Clojure for most of my problems (unless the problem needs to be solved in a web browser, in which case I'm still using JS) because I'm a Lisp guy and the JVM host gives me access to a huge ecosystem. But we're not actually using Clojure right now; we're doing development in Java, which is due to working with a consulting shop.
11:37	raek	TimMc: does it? isn't <expr> in (throw <expr>) evaluated like any other expression?
11:38	ohpauleez	edw: Also TimMc is an AWESOME consideration is he's available :)
11:38	ohpauleez	edw: Awesome!!!
11:38	TimMc	raek, sparkleshy: Augh, I was thinking try for a moment instead of throw. Never mind...
11:38	fdaoud	TimMc: I see. And you're right, lein repl works properly.
11:39	fdaoud	for some reason I thought pr-str and read-string were clojurescript, not plain clojure, thus my confusion.
11:39	ejackson	edw: if you're interested in consultants, I might be able to help you out, check your PM
11:41	edw	ejackson: Will do. (I'm IRCing through a soda straw here, dealing with my META key not working.) That said, we're looking to hire someone to be my peer; I intensely dislike contractor situations.
11:41	ejackson	no sweat, i intensely dislike employment situations :)
11:42	edw	Hey, I feel the same way about being employed anywhere but at a start-up.
11:42	edw	Otherwise, consultant city.
11:43	TimMc	My dad has been self-employed for a large portion of his life.
11:43	TimMc	Seems prety happy with that. :-)
11:44	ejackson	I've bene self employed only 18 mnths, but I'm loving it
11:44	TimMc	Does starting heirloom seed companies and selling them off count as being "in the startup business"? :-P
11:45	ejackson	most def'
11:45	TimMc	Even if it takes like a decade for each?
11:46	edw	I grew up in my parents' small business and that ruined me for working anywhre that I have to deal with people who I have to connect the dots for. That and almost twenty years of working in my own design firms, for new companies, as a consultant.
11:46	edw	TimMc: I'd like my _next_ "start-up" to be like that, more of a 37signals affair.
11:53	patrikkarlin	hej i used the new? clojure-jack-in function in clojure-mode and it connects fine and i can eval expressions but the repl dosent open. Anny one had the same problem?
11:56	TimMc	edw: Have they actually sold anything off?
11:56	raek	patrikkarlin: what do you mean by "the repl dosent open"? didn't the repl buffer pop up when you got connected? where did you eval the expressions?
11:57	patrikkarlin	from the file buffer
11:57	patrikkarlin	no it did no open
11:57	cap10morgan	morning dakrone. thanks again for the noir demo last night.
11:58	dakrone	cap10morgan: thanks for coming :)
11:59	clgv	cap10morgan, dakrone: did you talk about noir and cljs? is there any material online?
11:59	edw	TimMc: I was at Half.com from nearly day one. We sold to eBay for $350 million or so.
11:59	dakrone	clgv: noir on heroku, not much material; it was mostly a coding-example walkthrough
12:00	clgv	dakrone: ah ok.
12:00	raek	patrikkarlin: for me the buffer is called slime-repl nil. do you see any buffer like that if you press "C-x C-b"?
12:00	edw	TimMc: And I had a boutique consulting firm that I founded and sold to my partners back in late '08.
12:01	patrikkarlin	raek: no i have a slime events buffer tho and it dosent give me anny errors :(
12:01	ejackson	edw: busy man !
12:02	tmciver	patrikkarlin: do you see a swank buffer?
12:02	patrikkarlin	tmciver: yea
12:03	raek	patrikkarlin: what does the Messages buffer contain? a bunch of lines like "Loading (...)slime(...)done", "Connecting to Swank on port (...)..", "Connected. Lemonodor-fame is but a hack away! (or some other quote)"
12:04	raek	patrikkarlin: also, what clojure related stuff have you installed in emacs? just clojure-mode?
12:05	patrikkarlin	Starting swank server...
12:05	patrikkarlin	Connecting to Swank on port 63441.. [2 times]
12:05	patrikkarlin	error in process filter: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-output-buffer [2 times]
12:05	patrikkarlin	Connected. May the source be with you!
12:05	patrikkarlin	theres an error
12:05	replaca_	Q: does someone know how to do (def ^:dynamic ...) without using a reader macro?
12:05	raek	replaca_: like from a macro?
12:05	replaca_	no, I want something that will work in all versions of clojure
12:06	pandeiro	patrikkarlin: i vaguely remember that being a version issue? look in ~/.lein/plugins?
12:06	patrikkarlin	i installed clojure-mode and clojurescript mode and lein-clojure i think
12:06	patrikkarlin	lein-clojurescript-1.1.0.jar swank-clojure-1.3.2.jar
12:07	raek	(having slime installed is known to cause problems. you don't have to install it when using clojure-jack-in, since it the swank server you connect to provides a matchin version for you)
12:07	replaca_	although, I could use a macro, if I could find a way to make it work
12:07	raek	replaca_: is this for maintaining compability with Clojure 1.1 and earlier?
12:08	patrikkarlin	raek: dosent seme logical that that whuld void out a function tho??
12:08	lazybot	patrikkarlin: Uh, no. Why would you even ask?
12:08	replaca_	raek: yeah, in autodoc
12:08	raek	oh, I see
12:08	pandeiro	patrikkarlin: ls -l your .emacs.d?
12:09	raek	maybe you could consider running autodoc in the leiningen clojure instance
12:09	patrikkarlin	06 *** benares_98 JOIN
12:09	patrikkarlin	17:06 <replaca_> raek: yeah, in autodoc
12:09	patrikkarlin	> init.el package package.el places swank
12:09	raek	it will be >= 1.2
12:10	pandeiro	patrikkarlin: swank has the slime elisp files?
12:10	pandeiro	i think i had that problem when i accidentally deleted that folder or its contents
12:10	replaca_	raek: that doesn't work for documenting, e.g. clojure itself
12:11	raek	replaca_: anyway, you can construct a symbol with {:dynamic true} metadat like this: (let [sym (acquire-symbol-somehow)] (vary-meta sym assoc :dynamic true))
12:11	replaca_	raek: yeah, that's about where I'd gotten to and I think it's the right approach
12:11	replaca_	raek: thanks
12:12	patrikkarlin	it has slime files in it i asume this whas installed by the package maneger i dident install swank manualy
12:12	raek	replaca_: is the problem that the reader autodoc uses might not be able to read the source?
12:12	raek	sounds like a hard problem to solve
12:13	replaca_	raek: at the core, autodoc is usingg whatever version of clojure that is involved in that program
12:13	raek	if the syntax changes is the only problem, maybe maintaining a separate 1.1 version is simpler
12:13	replaca_	once I've dig out all the vars, protos and types, I switch back to clojure 1.3
12:13	raek	ah
12:14	replaca_	*dug
12:14	replaca_	mostly it works pretty easily, at the cost of some copy and paste pattern
12:15	raek	patrikkarlin: have you seen this? https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/92
12:15	pandeiro	patrikkarlin: weird, sorry i don't remember exactly what i had to do but you might just remove swank of .lein/plugins and .emacs.d/ and lein install swank-clojure 1.3.3
12:16	raek	from that page it looks like there was a problem in swank-clojure 1.3.2, and that 1.3.3 should work
12:16	raek	1.4.3 seems to be the latest stable version, though
12:18	raek	patrikkarlin: try removing all you installed plugins first (as pandeiro suggested, using "rm ~/.lein/plugins/*")
12:18	raek	and then "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.4.3"
12:19	raek	also check that you _don't_ have swank-clojure mentioned in your project.clj file
12:20	patrikkarlin	i got a artifact missing error is that version not on clojars?
12:22	raek	hrm, did I spell it wrong?
12:22	patrikkarlin	i dident find it on the site
12:22	patrikkarlin	using the 1.5.0-SNAPSHOt
12:23	raek	ah, it's called lein-swank now
12:24	raek	patrikkarlin: "lein plugin install lein-swank 1.4.3"
12:25	raek	(I tested that on my box too, just to be sure)
12:25	sparkleshy	is there any way to overload + without damaging performance in the normal case?
12:26	patrikkarlin	THADA
12:26	raek	:)
12:26	patrikkarlin	kisses and hugs everyone who helped :D
12:27	raek	lycka till!
12:27	replaca_	raek: so it turns out that vary-meta was the wrong tree up which to bark. By the time you have a var, it's already pulled from the meta. But (.setDynamic #'foo) seems to do the trick
12:27	replaca_	dunno if it works in 1.1 though
12:28	replaca_	but I think I was conditionalize that
12:28	replaca_	*was=>can
12:28	raek	are you generating code?
12:28	raek	or making code that should be readable in any clojure version?
12:29	raek	.setDynamic sounds like an invention of 1.3
12:30	replaca_	the latter
12:30	replaca_	I agree that it sounds like a 1.2 or 1.3 thing, but I don't know for sure
12:30	replaca_	but that's what macros are for :)
12:33	raek	replaca_: maybe you could (ab)use the eval reader macro: (def #=(vary-meta 'some-var assoc :dynamic true) 123)
12:34	raek	then you can have metadata in the code without using "^" or "#^"
12:36	eggsby	Hi guys, I have question. I was looking over the implementation of sort-by in clojure.core and I was puzzled by the line "(sort (fn [x y] (. comp (compare (keyfn x) (keyfn y)))) coll)))
12:36	eggsby	"
12:36	melipone	what's the clojure library that has the trace tools in 1.3.0?
12:36	eggsby	So it's sorting the result of applying the anonymous function to the collection
12:37	replaca_	raek: oh, that's an interesting idea
12:37	eggsby	But what i'm confused about is the use of the java interop "." . It uses the clojure compare on the result of applying the keyfunction to x and y
12:37	eggsby	but where does the java interop come in?
12:37	eggsby	it's saying (. compose (comparison of x and y)) right?
12:38	replaca_	I've got it working now with the .setDynamic, so I think I'll go that way (it's a yak shave anyway to get some debug printing in)
12:39	replaca_	raek: you're right, .setDynamic was a 1.3 innovation
12:39	replaca_	but I have a macro that covers that based on the clojure version
12:41	vijaykiran	eggsby:I think the comp in that line is Comparator
12:41	vijaykiran	eggsby: you are talking about this line - https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L2713 .. right ?
12:42	eggsby	yes vijaykiran
12:43	vijaykiran	eggsby: AFAIU - it is like java.util.Comparator#compare(keyfn x, keyfny)
12:43	vijaykiran	eggsby: so comp here isn't clojure.core/comp :)
12:43	eggsby	oh? how confusing!
12:43	eggsby	so it has to do with the ^notation ?
12:44	vijaykiran	eggsby: yeah .. ^blah is a "type hint"
12:44	eggsby	I'm a bit confused though because I thought the . notation you had the java method as the last parameter, in this case it is the first?
12:44	eggsby	like (. 1 toString)
12:44	eggsby	and here it is (. toString 1)
12:45	eggsby	oh, I see. comp is clojure comp and compare is java's compare?
12:45	vijaykiran	eggsby: nope, (. target member)
12:45	lucian	and the shorthand is (.method ...)
12:45	lucian	(.method target ...)
12:46	eggsby	where target is our parameter to pass to the java method as 'member'?
12:46	clgv	&(.toString 1)
12:46	lazybot	⇒ "1"
12:46	clgv	&(. 1 (toString))
12:46	lazybot	⇒ "1"
12:46	eggsby	so 'compare' in that context is java compare, right?
12:46	vijaykiran	eggsby: yeah, almost - comp is java.util.Comparator and compare is the method from java.util.comparator
12:46	eggsby	:o
12:46	eggsby	okay, so one is done by typehinting, and the other is done by the java interop function?
12:47	eggsby	comp by typehinting and compare by java interop "." ?
12:50	Zoka	Hi guys - have a look at http://noirmon.herokuapp.com/ringmon/monview.html It is a web based interface to nREPL server running within a Noir based app on Heroku. It has color syntax editor (CodeMirror), command history and persistent sessions. Comcurent web users can communicate to each other using simple built in chat.
12:50	clgv	eggsby: you can rewrite to: (sort (fn [x y] (.compare comp (keyfn x) (keyfn y))) coll)
12:50	eggsby	that makes sense clgv
12:51	eggsby	and in that context comp is typehinted as the java comp from the line [keyfn ^java.util.Comparator comp coll], correct?
12:51	eggsby	or rather 'comp as java.util.Comparator'
12:51	clgv	Zoka: where is te chat?
12:51	nDuff	Are there any suggestions re: minimally-invasive workarounds for CLJ-855 (wrapping of checked exceptions making them unhandleable without catching RuntimeException and unwrapping)?
12:53	clgv	Zoka: seems you could use a sandbox ;)
12:54	Zoka	You just type in REPL window and press 'Send'
12:54	clgv	hmm but it restarted at least ;)
12:54	patrikkarlin	do whe se each others code executions?
12:54	patrikkarlin	or only chat?
12:55	clgv	execute something^^
12:55	patrikkarlin	i se my own
12:55	clgv	I think I killed it with (System/exit -1) ;)
12:55	Zoka	No, just chat, but you ca
12:56	pandeiro	clgv: that's a feature, you can turn off the server if it's bothering you while you're chatting
12:56	patrikkarlin	:D
12:57	Zoka	It just comes back :)
12:57	clgv	Zoka: you should consider using clojail ;)
12:57	pandeiro	it uses nREPL right?
12:57	Zoka	Thi is just a demo for development tool
12:58	Zoka	So it needs to be full featured
12:58	Zoka	And Heroku apps are indistructable
12:59	clgv	if I had some time I'd see which parts of the filesystem are accessible ;)
12:59	patrikkarlin	think you can only read
12:59	patrikkarlin	on heroku ..
13:00	technomancy	patrikkarlin: that's actually only true of earlier heroku stacks
13:00	technomancy	the ruby-only ones
13:00	Zoka	Ephemeral file system - you can kill it bit it comes back
13:04	Zoka	You can write in your app current directory on Heroku, but those changes are gone on restart
13:08	pandeiro	(count (map ... coll)) should always be the same as (count coll)?
13:09	patrikkarlin	have you seen something else?
13:09	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:09	pandeiro	i am doing some processing on a fairly large collection and i can't seem to realize it afterwards, the Thread dies, then when I count the number is different
13:11	patrikkarlin	the thread where the collection whas behing "changed" died yet you have access to it?
13:12	ldh	i'm having trouble with clojure.data.json. read-json is throwing this error: IllegalArgumentException No implementation of method: :read-json-from of protocol: #'clojure.data.json/Read-JSON-From found for class: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap
13:12	patrikkarlin	or do you mean died as in it whas done not crached
13:12	ldh	code here: https://gist.github.com/2149600
13:12	technomancy	well, the semantics of what happens when a lazy seq can't be realized are kind of funny
13:12	pandeiro	well the map returns a lazy collection so i can map it fine but i can't realize it
13:12	pandeiro	technomancy: how do i know when to give up?
13:13	technomancy	I guess you could argue that count should throw an exception every time if realizing the seq can't happen
13:14	technomancy	it doesn't make sense to retry the function generating the seq, but I don't think it makes sense to return an empty seq either
13:15	technomancy	the best thing would probably be to attach the exception to the seq and re-throw it every time the seq is attempted to be realized
13:16	pandeiro	weird, when i kill the thread and count again the number is different... maybe that's a sign i just need to wait?
13:23	cemerick	Zoka: looks like you're building a bit of a fanbase with ringmon :-)
13:23	Zoka	yes
13:24	Zoka	It eouild not work without nTRPL
13:24	Zoka	I mean nREPL
13:24	cemerick	Yeah, hopefully shortly you'll be able to get rid of the hacks you needed to do in order to work around the lack of HTTP support.
13:25	Zoka	No problem, I am very happy with it as is - everything work as advertised
13:26	technomancy	right now there's no command-line client that speaks HTTP yet, is there?
13:27	cemerick	it's simple enough that any HTTP client (curl, clj-http, etc) should do just fine
13:28	cemerick	The existing nREPL client is general enough that clj-http slips right underneath.
13:28	technomancy	curl by itself isn't very repl-ish though
13:29	cemerick	oh command line client
13:29	cemerick	no
13:29	Zoka	If you want to use nREPL on heroku tthere is problem of one server socket per web app restriction, so it goed browser->ajax->ring middleware->custom trasport (in JVM) -> nREPL
13:29	cemerick	I'm going to try to get Colin to add it as a connect option to reply (and therefore lein)
13:29	technomancy	slick
13:30	cemerick	Zoka: right, the server side of the HTTP transport I'm working on is just another ring handler
13:30	technomancy	cemerick: I may be able to help with that next week if needed
13:30	Zoka	yes. it jist inject a web page and ajax uti
13:31	Zoka	s /uti/uri/
13:33	cemerick	technomancy: it's working fine already for simple interactions. I'm trying to figure out how fancy to get re: binary returns (multipart responses vs. some kind of scheme to refer to temporarily-cached auxiliary resources)
13:33	technomancy	multipart on the CLI? I would have figured that for a lost cause.
13:34	cemerick	well, reply can not opt into such things
13:35	cemerick	but simple stuff is totally doable without a GUI
13:42	tomoj	marginalia's choice of `foo` over <tt>foo</tt> makes me happy
13:56	TimMc	Markdown: It's almost a real markup language!
14:22	muhoo	what would you recommend for a simple, local-ish datastore?
14:22	muhoo	i don't need datomic, and i don't want to have to deal with sql and schemas and jdbc, this is just clojure maps
14:22	muhoo	and storing it all in a flat file kind of sucks
14:23	aperiodic	sqlite?
14:23	RickInGA	mongo?
14:24	muhoo	maybe mongo, i'll have to try it.
14:24	muhoo	i'd rather avoid sql and jdbc
14:24	RickInGA	I have only done the simplest of examples, but congomongo looks pretty easy to use
14:24	pandeiro	muhoo: couchdb is pretty easy with clutch
14:24	muhoo	ah, thanks.
14:25	technomancy	another vote for couch
14:25	muhoo	thanks, that looks like the winner!
14:25	patrikkarlin	not redis :(
14:25	technomancy	mongodb worries me
14:25	pandeiro	muhoo: check out the clojurian semantics cemerick added wait i'll find a link
14:26	muhoo	this? https://github.com/ashafa/clutch
14:26	RickInGA	technomancy: pandeiro: what is the motivation for couch over mongo? (I don't know enough to have a preference either way)
14:26	aperiodic	hmmm, repl-y doesn't work at all for me
14:26	technomancy	RickInGA: mongo's defaults are optimized for microbenchmarks over safety
14:27	technomancy	it's like mysql; it "wins" all the speed comparisons done by people who don't know any better, but as soon as you turn on all the features you need to actually make it a good database, it's no faster.
14:27	antares_	technomancy: what are you voting on?
14:27	RickInGA	technomancy: thanks, that is a pretty good answer :)
14:28	antares_	RickInGA: if you have reasons to use mongo, try https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger
14:28	technomancy	TBH mysql now has better defaults, but that's the stereotype it has from the early 200Xs
14:28	mk	what is a macro?
14:28	antares_	RickInGA: but mongodb java driver has crazy unsafe defaults (monger in part fixes that) and it is very fast only with low concurrency
14:28	muhoo	i'm not concerned with seped
14:29	muhoo	speed eithher
14:29	muhoo	i just want one step better than (spit (print-dup somestructure) "somefile.clj")
14:29	mk	that is, are there any nice articles out there explaining what a macro is, and when they should be used?
14:29	antares_	ok. Well, query and secondary indexes in mongo are nice. But I personally will try to think hard about using PG and Riak in combination for some of my next projects.
14:30	patrikkarlin	anny one here have a project using core.logic on github i can look att
14:30	cemerick	muhoo: pandeiro was looking for: https://github.com/clojure-clutch/clutch — look under "Experimental" for the Clojure-native type that makes interacting with a couch db feel like working with a map.
14:30	mk	the articles I've seen either lose me, or claim it's too difficult to explain using a simple example
14:30	muhoo	cemerick: thanks!
14:30	technomancy	mk: this one is pretty decent: http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html
14:30	pandeiro	that's the one
14:31	technomancy	muhoo: recently postgres added hstore, which gets you schemaless tables and is pretty badass
14:31	muhoo	nice
14:31	technomancy	I would be all over that except it's too new for the shared DBs on Heroku
14:31	RickInGA	interesting
14:31	antares_	mk: macros are a way for your code to extend Clojure compiler, in Clojure itself.
14:31	technomancy	but if your postgres is 9.1+ then you should definitely give it a look
14:32	RickInGA	technomancy: do you expect heroku will support that in the future?
14:34	jayunit100	hi guys
14:34	jayunit100	(:require [clojure.set :as set])
14:34	technomancy	not in the current implementation of shared DBs, but it might be possible in the future without a dedicated DB? I know apart from the fact that they understand it's something people really want
14:35	mk	I read that article before and it was very informative, but I think that when I came to the macros section it didn't all come together - I think I found it a bit brief
14:35	jayunit100	-----> java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set (NO_SOURCE_FILE:17)
14:35	jayunit100	(at the repl , i cant load a dependency that lein loads just fine in my normal clojure program).
14:36	mk	antares_: I think I get that part, but I'm not sure how it works, or what it's used for
14:36	RickInGA	technomancy: is there any extra cost to using couchdb for a small project on heroku as opposed to shared postgres (not that that would be my only factor)
14:36	technomancy	RickInGA: https://addons.heroku.com/cloudant it's free under 250MB
14:37	RickInGA	technomancy: awesome, thanks!
14:37	antares_	mk: in simplest cases, for "code generation" that you do in clojure itself. Any intermediate uses all lead to DSLs
14:37	technomancy	jayunit100: (:require [...]) only works inside ns
14:37	antares_	mk: take a look at query DSL example here: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger
14:37	jayunit100	oh...... ok
14:37	antares_	mk: it is done via macros, there is no other way to have this kind of DSL with just functions
14:38	jayunit100	so should i do (in-ns) when i fire up my repl?
14:38	cemerick	RickInGA: Cloudant is also free for some amount, heroku or not
14:38	jayunit100	or should i import set some other way ?
14:38	cemerick	meh, you'd think I was getting a cut :-P
14:38	antares_	jayunit100: (require '[clojure.set :as cs]) should work
14:38	technomancy	clojurebot: the ns macro?
14:38	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
14:38	technomancy	clojurebot: ns?
14:38	clojurebot	ns is unfortunately more complicated than it needs to be, but http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns may be helpful.
14:39	technomancy	jayunit100: ^^ highly recommended
14:39	mk	what's the distinction between intermediate and non-intermediate uses?
14:39	antares_	mk: basically, newcomers see it as a way to do "code generation at runtime"
14:39	antares_	mk: more experienced people build DSLs with it that drastically raise level of abstraction and declarativeness of your code
14:40	mk	is the code generation view something to avoid, or a needed step?
14:40	antares_	mk: so, you can build much more complex things quickier. Of course, DSL development takes effort and is not trivial either but it is a huge productivity boost in the end.
14:40	antares_	mk: I think it is a needed first step
14:41	jayunit100	some one should write a machine learning algorithm that randomly adds/removes ' and : chars from .clj files to get them working :)
14:41	antares_	mk: I would say, see monger, korma and clojure.java.jdbc for various uses of macros
14:41	muhoo	is there a way to get the lein repl to listen on a different interface? i.e. not on localhost, or on * instead of just localhost?
14:41	antares_	mk: they vary from DSLs to much simpler code generation/duplication elimination uses
14:41	technomancy	muhoo: in lein1, you can bind LEIN_REPL_HOST I think
14:42	muhoo	thanks
14:43	mk	antares_: I don't immediately follow what's going on with monger (under "powerful query dsl"), since I don't know what the alternative is or what exactly is being done (or as you say, why it can't be done in any other way)
14:43	mk	is there a clean example of when I'd need to generate code?
14:44	antares_	mk: take a look at mongodb shell or query docs, it will make it clearer
14:44	antares_	mk: you are building a query that has conditions, limit, offset and so on
14:44	mk	like, what sort of problem usually makes a lisp programmer think "I'm probably going to have to do some code gen here"?
14:44	antares_	mk: and those parts can be reused and compound
14:45	antares_	mk: when you see a lot of duplication, often structural duplication that a function won't help with
14:45	antares_	mk: or when you want to create a DSL for some particular problem. I believe last chapter in Clojure in Action explains that pretty well, with examples.
14:46	mk	what is structural duplication?
14:46	y3di	has anyone used c2?
14:47	technomancy	only the wiki
14:47	mk	I use if statements, and nested loops to iterate over 2d arrays - do those count?
14:49	antares_	mk: structured duplication is where you clearly see duplication between some piece of code but you cannot extract it using a function (or it won't make things any easier to understand).
14:49	antares_	mk: take a look at two examples here: https://gist.github.com/1a0449ded8ecded286d4
14:50	technomancy	I'd recommend learning more Clojure basics before picking up macros.
14:50	antares_	mk: this form of "first use let, then when/if on its only binding to do-something" is so common (regardless of what you do or what local name is) that clojure.core has a when-let and if-let macros
14:50	technomancy	once you've used them a bit, writing them will make a lot more sense.
14:50	technomancy	course if you're lucky, you won't need to.
14:51	RickInGA	antares_: not to nitpick, just making sure I understand in your example (do-something) actually should be (some-fn) right?
14:51	antares_	mk: this is a simple example where extracting this duplication with a function will only make things more complicated, but since your code structure is almost identical, you can make this piece more concise using a macro.
14:52	antares_	RickInGA: no
14:52	antares_	RickInGA: (some-fn) just returns a value of a
14:52	antares_	RickInGA: it can be anything
14:52	RickInGA	antares_: thanks
14:53	antares_	mk: another common example of basic macro usage is "with X" kind of macro
14:54	antares_	mk: consider a case when you want to store a value of, say, default DB connection, then change it to something, run some code and return to the original value
14:54	antares_	mk: say to use a separate DB but just once, w/o making it default
14:55	antares_	mk: with-* macros do exactly that, very concisely. Almost all clojure database and messaging clients have them in some shape or form, like here: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/blob/master/src/monger/core.clj#L88
14:56	antares_	mk: another case to consider. Imagine a code like this: (:street (:address (:profile person)))
14:56	antares_	that returns a street in person's profile address
14:56	antares_	it is a bit backwards, right?
14:56	antares_	a macro lets you make it more readable: (-> person :profile :address :street)
14:56	pandeiro	y3di: i'm starting to use it now
14:57	mk	I'm looking through the when-let example, I think I'm hung up on the fact that both let and when are themselves macros
14:57	antares_	mk: libraries like clj-time make things even more readable with it, for example (-> 2 hours ago) is probably self-explanatory to even not-so-technical people
14:57	jayunit100	hmmm this is another strange one :
14:57	jayunit100	ive removed ------ :main run.run ------- from project.clj
14:58	jayunit100	and am trying to simply launch the same project with
14:58	antares_	mk: yeah, don't focus on that part right now. Macros that use macros (deep macroexpansion) is possible and not uncommon but will only distract you
14:58	jayunit100	(user=> (use 'run.run :reload true)
14:58	jayunit100	but i get a dependency error in one of the clj files.
14:58	jayunit100	i guess lein's :main does more than just load a class
14:58	antares_	jayunit100: (use …) won't run your function
14:59	mk	technomancy: you're probably right that it'll make more sense after working with the language for a bit, but it'd be nice to have that reward now, since understanding that would probably motivate
14:59	antares_	jayunit100: yes, it compiles it and executes it
14:59	jayunit100	i dont want to run it... just load run into the class path so i can run it manually.
14:59	antares_	mk: you will come to understand all aspects and features of Clojure over time
14:59	technomancy	mk: macros are over-hyped by some
14:59	RickInGA	mk: I am in that situation to some extent, Graham tells us macros are awesome, but we have to go deep into lisp to grok them
15:00	technomancy	there are many more compelling features in Clojure that are much more practical for everyday use
15:00	RickInGA	mk: but as I have been learning Clojure, I am loving it and the way it is designed, and I don't know squat about macros
15:00	antares_	mk: don't rush or try to use features you do not fully understand. Each feature has a purpose and you will see the need for it later. When you think that something should be already available or trivial or common, ask here. Almost always there is something in clojure.core to help you or do exactly what you want.
15:01	antares_	I totally agree with technomancy. I do use macros quite a bit but I use things like protocols and higher-order functions much more.
15:01	antares_	a lot of macros make Java interop much more pleasant, like doto
15:01	antares_	but you don't have to be a macro writer to benefit from them
15:01	jayunit100	i wonder - why would ('use run.run) break in the repl even though (:main run.run) works fine?
15:02	TimMc	jayunit100: Because you're quoting the wrong thing.
15:02	technomancy	jayunit100: neither of those will work
15:02	jayunit100	i mean (use 'run.run :reload true)
15:02	antares_	jayunit100: use does soemthing very different from what you think it does
15:02	muhoo	ok, this nesting insanity is starting to look like jquery. https://refheap.com/paste/1258 i feel like i'm doing something wrong.
15:02	pandeiro	technomancy: how can i run a clj file as a script from a lein project? is it possible?
15:03	eggsby	if I have a vector of hashmaps and I want them sorted by the reverse of the first value in the hashmap, is (sort-by #(val (first %)) < coll) the idiomatic way to do that?
15:03	antares_	jayunit100: use imports (technically, refers) functions from a given namespace into the current one
15:03	antares_	jayunit100: it does not call functions
15:03	technomancy	pandeiro: lein run -m my.ns # as long as you have a -main defn
15:03	amalloy	antares_: i don't like -> for that, most of the time. a macro can make things more readable (and -> often does), but here i really prefer (get-in person [:profile :adress :street])
15:03	technomancy	not having a -main is sketchy as hell
15:04	TimMc	technomancy: FOr executable projects.
15:04	pandeiro	technomancy: and i will be able to take from stdin like that?
15:04	pandeiro	or do i need to use trampoline?
15:04	amalloy	eggsby: the "first" value of the hashmap? those aren't really ordered, unless what you're saying is you don't actually care about the order at all
15:04	mk	yeah, the reason I'm asking about macros is because of pg's lisp advocacy
15:04	antares_	amalloy: sure, it's just an example
15:04	jayunit100	oh ok. so why would the import fail ? Im in a proper lein project. and ... as mentioned, the project.clj file has a :main entry with the same class as the one which im Trying to load functions from.
15:05	antares_	mk: PG was describing a different Lisp. While Clojure is a great Lisp, it has many other nice aspects that make macros slightly less commonly used (compared to other lisps)
15:05	jayunit100	(and - when i launch the repl with the :main entry, i can run the program)
15:05	mk	the (poor) understanding of them that I have is that you can define various novel programming structures
15:05	RickInGA	mk: I am crawling my way through pg's 'On Lisp', the first few chapters are why functional programming is awesome. Translating those examples into Clojure, I have a new appreciation of how much better clojure is
15:05	jayunit100	Land of Lisp is good to
15:05	eggsby	well amolloy I have a structure like [{:a 1} {:c 3} {:d 6}] and I want to sort-by the value of the map entry. since there is only one map entry in each hashmap in the vector I need to get at it by 'first' right?
15:06	dnolen	mk: are you familiar with HTML templating?
15:06	dnolen	mk: if so, macros are like HTML templates, but for your code.
15:06	TimMc	and beyond
15:07	mk	(sorry - I'm still replying to things said a page ago)
15:07	muhoo	the important thing i learned about macros is that i don't need them :-)
15:07	mk	those comments about the other language features of clojure are reassuring
15:08	mk	higher-order functions are functions which take functions?
15:08	RickInGA	mk: take or return
15:08	antares_	mk: correct, take or return (possibly create, too)
15:10	RickInGA	mk: if you want a good overview great clojure features, this video is really good: http://vimeo.com/10896148
15:10	eggsby	will watch, ty RickInGA
15:10	mk	dnolen: that seems to be a helpful analogy
15:13	mk	I think my main issue with understanding macros is that I don't see how they do something that can't otherwise be done, but like the channel's been saying, this is probably best solved by actually working with clojure more
15:14	jonasen	dnolen: Thanks for your comment on kibit#20. I'm writing a response but it might take a while. It's difficult to talk about core.logic when I know so little about it.
15:14	Bronsa	mk: take cond
15:14	mk	RickInGA: thanks for the video
15:14	Bronsa	you couldn't implement it as a function
15:14	dnolen	jonasen: np
15:15	TimMc	mk: Macros do not make otherwise impossible things possible.
15:15	fliebel	jonasen: That's what logic programming does to your brain. You think endlessly about what to ask, rather than how to solve a problem.
15:15	pandeiro	can anyone show me a barebones example of reading from stdin?
15:15	mk	right - well, they make things easier, or clearer?
15:15	fliebel	pandeiro: (readline)
15:16	fliebel	or, (read-line) actually
15:16	TimMc	mk: Basically.
15:16	emezeske	mk: Macros are the last-resort boilerplate removal tool. Like when you have a bunch of code duplicated in two places and you just can't think of any other way to factor it out, macros might help.
15:17	jonasen	dnolen: One quick (silly) question: What's created with (defne ...)? It's not a function - is it a "relation"? Is there a anonymous version of it like "(fn ...)"?
15:17	emezeske	mk: So in that sense, yes, they can make things easier/clearer.
15:17	TimMc	mk: Sometimes they make things possible that aren't practical with regular functions.
15:18	TimMc	s/make things possible/allow you to do things/
15:18	pandeiro	ok so (read-line) doesn't work from lein...
15:18	mk	Bronsa: hmm, that's a good example. I'm imagining passing in pairs of functions or something to a cond, but that seems ugly and not right.
15:18	fliebel	jonasen: It's like (defn foo (matche ...)) me thinks
15:19	pandeiro	and trampoline sorts me out, great
15:20	dnolen	jonasen: what fliebel said. it's just sugar over tedious unifications.
15:20	jonasen	dnolen: fliebel: so it's not wrong to call it an ordinary function
15:20	dnolen	jonasen: define (matche) expands out into a conde.
15:21	dnolen	jonasen: ordinary function that contains a conde
15:21	mk	all the explanations are very helpful, thanks. I won't worry so much about macros as a major reason to use clojure
15:21	jonasen	so it must be run in the (run* ..) macro
15:22	dnolen	jonasen: yes
15:22	jonasen	dnolen: ok. Thanks.
15:25	jayunit100	sorry to bump my question but ......
15:26	jayunit100	Im in a proper lein project. and ... the project.clj file has a ((((:main run.run))) entry, and i can run it by launching a repl from the project root directory. But... If I try to (use 'run.run)
15:27	jayunit100	at the repl --- than I get a "Unable to resolve symbol: cell in this context (myfile.clj:71)" error.
15:28	patrikkarlin	core.logic question :D i have a "relation" (my-rel q) how do i easily make a list of that relation?
15:28	jayunit100	so its interesting b/c although run.run is loadable from repl ... I can't actually use the functions in run.run from the repl. maybe its a namespace issue.
15:29	dnolen	patrikkarlin: what do you mean?
15:30	patrikkarlin	say i have a number n and i whant a list of n numbers of items where they all are of my relation
15:30	patrikkarlin	might not have my termenaligy right :p
15:35	dnolen	patrikkarlin: if you query that relation you'll get back everything in it - (run [q] (rel q)), if you want n things, (run n [q] (rel q))
15:36	tmciver	jayunit100: will it run if you do 'lein run' in the project directory?
15:36	patrikkarlin	o i dont whant n things i whant q to be a list of fresh variables bound to my real
15:37	patrikkarlin	w8 for some sudocode
15:37	jayunit100	good point
15:37	jayunit100	@tmciver
15:38	patrikkarlin	(defn list-of [list n]
15:38	patrikkarlin	(== list (take n (repeat (rel <fresh-variable>)))))
15:38	yazirian	jayunit100: it sounds like you might have specified too deeply, try (use 'run) which imports the 'run' function from the 'run' module. this might be more obvious if your main module and function name aren't both the same word :)
15:38	tmciver	jayunit100: so does it? If not, it sounds like you just have a bug in your code relating to the var/local 'cell'.
15:39	jayunit100	oh ok
15:39	jayunit100	tmciver : its a bug in the code
15:39	jayunit100	very sorry to spam you guys with my own mistake
15:39	jayunit100	:(
15:40	jayunit100	what is a "module" in clojure ?
15:40	TimMc	It isn't.
15:41	yazirian	jayunit100: if you started from 'lein new myproject' then you would have had a 'src/myproject/core.clj' file created for you
15:41	yazirian	importing myproject.core, that's a module
15:41	dnolen	patrikkarlin: that's not going to work, I probably need some context to understand what you're actually trying to do.
15:43	TimMc	jayunit100, yazirian: Clojure has namespaces, not modules.
15:43	jayunit100	ok
15:43	TimMc	Perhaps it will get a module system in the future.
15:43	jayunit100	and what is a clj file ?
15:43	jayunit100	what place does that reserve in clojure code
15:44	TimMc	jayunit100: As far as you need to know at the moment, one file = one namespace. :-)
15:44	jayunit100	Like in java --- class files have a specific role - they define a static namespace, etc...
15:44	jayunit100	ok
15:44	antares_	jayunit100: namespaces are very similar to Java packages
15:45	patrikkarlin	dnolen: so im trying to write a sudoko solver and i have a rel that is the number #{ 1 .. 9 } so my next step whuld be to make a row of items whit that rel and apply the != betwen them and by that have a valid row rel
15:45	jayunit100	but i think, with namespaces, they can be physically spread apart, unlike packages.
15:45	antares_	and most apps follow Java-like convention of "one namespaces per file"
15:45	antares_	jayunit100: correct
15:55	sjl	So I made the mistake of running leiningen without an internet connection, and now it's blacklisted Central and Clojars. How do I tell it that that's probably not a good idea?
15:55	mk	amusing. That should be a bug report.
16:01	TimMc	sjl: Poke around in .lein I guess.
16:02	sjl	TimMc: yeah, I don't see anything in there that looks like a blacklist
16:02	jayunit100	wow
16:03	mk	my .lein is empty
16:04	arohner	sjl: I don't that has any permanent side effects. It just means maven won't check that repo for the rest of the run
16:06	rudyl313	how can I download a specific version of lein?
16:06	sjl	arohner: hmm, maybe, but lein plugin install is definitely failing when trying to install cljs-template, and not checking clojars
16:07	sjl	wait a second
16:07	sjl	ugh, it says "unable to find resource" but I think it actually succeeded
16:19	TimMc	yep
16:19	TimMc	Fails on one repo, succeeds later on another.
16:19	patrikkarlin	logic people is conde the best way to make multiple gools in a function or is there a simpler macro?
16:24	muhoo	or multiple gaols
16:24	dnolen_	patrikkarlin: if by multiple goals you mean disjunction - yes.
16:24	patrikkarlin	and that macro is ?
16:24	dnolen_	patrikkarlin: I mean yes, if you want disjunction you need conde.
16:25	patrikkarlin	i dont need branshing
16:25	patrikkarlin	(defn dist [i [h & t]]
16:25	patrikkarlin	(conde
16:25	patrikkarlin	((!= i h)
16:25	patrikkarlin	(if (nil? t)
16:25	patrikkarlin	succeed
16:25	patrikkarlin	(dist i t)))))
16:25	dnolen_	patrikkarlin: please use gist, lisppaste, refheap, etc.
16:25	patrikkarlin	i only have on branch but it has multiple goals
16:25	patrikkarlin	kk
16:26	dnolen_	patrikkarlin: you can put multiple goals in fresh: (fresh [] g1 g2 g2)
16:26	patrikkarlin	o so i dont need to make new variables
16:27	dnolen_	patrikkarlin: no, you can also use all: (all g1 g2 g3 ...) which just sugar for (fresh [] ...)
16:27	technomancy	sjl: yeah, repo blacklisting is just for a single run
16:27	patrikkarlin	nice
16:27	technomancy	i think in lein2 we'll have more control over output like that; a lot of the messages maven emits in lein1 are garbage
16:29	hugod	dnolen_: in core.match should ([& _] :seq) match a seq with arbitrary elements, or is there some other way to do that?
16:30	dnolen_	hugod: that should probably work, still mulling over seq / vector matching. but I need like a whole free week to sort it out.
16:31	hugod	dnolen_: it gives "No method in multimethod 'to-source' for dispatch value: class clojure.core.match.RestPattern" at the moment
16:32	hugod	I guess I'll try and find a work-around
16:32	dnolen_	hugod: feel free to open a ticket, that's probably an easy one.
16:32	hugod	ok, will do
16:34	dnolen_	hugod: if it's easy I'll go ahead and fix that and cut a release.
16:35	hugod	dnolen_: thanks :)
16:36	dnolen_	hugod: note there will be a breaking change in the release, in prep for predicate dispatch. there are now predicates and guards.
16:36	dnolen_	code that uses :when will need to declare their predicates with defpred before using them.
16:37	mk	I just watched halloway's http://vimeo.com/10896148 - where can I find the second part presentation where he talks about state?
16:37	hugod	oo, I'll need to do some checking then
16:37	dnolen_	you can optionally switch :when to :guard to get the old behavior
16:37	hugod	ok
16:38	kalle__	hey, I want to use rabbitmq from clojure. is there a suitable lib for that? clojure-rabbitmq hasn't had any commits in about two years as far as i can tell...
16:39	mk	found it: http://vimeo.com/8672404
16:39	dnolen_	I'm realizing predicates will could be really. I think they can support arbitrary combinations of :and, :or, and :not
16:39	antares_	kalle__: github.com/michaelklishin/langohr is well maintained
16:39	dnolen_	really cool I mean.
16:39	melipone	I have a lein question. Is there a way to rename a project? Should I just change the name of the directories?
16:39	kalle__	antares_: i'll take a look. thanks mate
16:40	TimMc	melipone: That's what I do. :-/
16:40	hugod	dnolen_: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/MATCH-55
16:40	antares_	kalle__: I am the maintainer in case you have questions. Sorry about the lack of docs but the README explains how Langohr learns from other clients and embraces AMQP model.
16:40	hugod	dnolen_: predicates sound interesting :)
16:41	arohner	melipone: just rename the directories and change the name at the top of the defproject
16:41	antares_	kalle__: tests should work reasonably well as examples
16:41	dnolen_	hugod: yes, you could put a :not, and we can rewrite the following logical expression.
16:41	arohner	melipone: and at the top of each ns
16:41	melipone	arohner: okay, thanks. Just checking if there was a better way.
16:41	dnolen_	hugod: thx
16:42	kalle__	antares_: great, thanks. I'm still learning clojure so I'm sure i'll get stuck on something. learning is half the fun... tests is usually where i look first anyway so i'll start there now as well.
16:46	patrikkarlin	dnolen_: https://gist.github.com/2152689 there is a bether way to do this one right?
16:47	melipone	I didn't get an answer for my (easy) question earlier. Which library has the trace tools now for clojure 1.3.0?
16:48	fliebel	melipone: "the trace tools"?
16:49	melipone	fliebel: those that were in clojure.contrib.trace I guess
16:49	melipone	fliebel: deftrace
16:49	fliebel	melipone: there is a wiki page with the new names.
16:50	melipone	fliebel: url please?
16:50	hugod	dnolen_: is defpred the best name for something that doesn't declare a top level var?
16:50	fliebel	$google clojure new contrib
16:50	lazybot	[Clojure Contrib - Clojure Documentation - Clojure Development] http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Clojure+Contrib
16:51	melipone	fliebel: okay, thx.
16:52	dnolen_	hugod: well at the moment it is a global lookup - kinda like default hierarchies for multimethods
16:53	antares_	melipone: https://github.com/clojure/tools.trace
16:53	dnolen_	hugod: do you have a better name in mind?
16:54	dnolen_	hugod: whatever we come up w/ should probably at least consider the possibility of multiple hierarchies.
16:54	hugod	dnolen_: not really, maybe just predicate
16:54	hugod	I am likely to want to use them in a non-global context
16:55	dnolen_	hugod: predicate is kind of a lot to type :) I'm imagining that core.match will ship with a large number of obvious predicates and derivations, also that you can load entire Java hierarchies.
16:55	hugod	I can easily live with defpred
16:56	dnolen_	hugod: I'll ruminate on it, I'll less concerned w/ changing the name later, we're still alpha and that's just a search & replace.
16:56	hugod	sure
17:02	edw`	Has anyone made any progress on an Emacs-in-Clojure? The time is ripe.
17:03	technomancy	edw`: waiting for the concurrency branch to get merged into emacs trunk
17:04	edw	technomancy: Are you joking? I asked the question partially in jest.
17:04	dnolen_	huh, sounds like Source Mapping in Chrome is 6 only weeks out, good news for CLJS
17:04	technomancy	edw: I haven't decided yet
17:05	technomancy	I don't have to decide whether I'm joking until the branch is actually merged.
17:06	edw	Looking at emacswiki.org. Contains e-mail excerpts from 1994...
17:07	edw	Is Emacs-in-Scheme going anywhere? technomancy, you thinking of writing an elisp interpreter/compiler in Clojure?
17:08	edw	(I like the sly lazy evaluation semi-joke, btw.)
17:08	technomancy	edw: I can't imagine it would be that difficult to adapt Nathan Sorensen's clojurescript for to elisp
17:08	technomancy	except for mutable strings; I have no idea what to do about those =\
17:08	technomancy	but at least it has integers! so it's a wash I guess.
17:09	cemerick	are there any cases where (not= (aget js-obj "foo") (.-foo js-obj))? (assuming "-foo" is a valid symbol, no spaces, etc)
17:09	edw	What got me thinking about this is that I have half of a browser Clojure data structure editor written, and I was going to support Emacs (and paredit) key bindings for it.
17:10	edw	But it's in JS...
17:11	technomancy	well if you beat me to it, I won't be disappointed
17:12	edw	I think an Emacs-in-the-browser-in-CLJS would be pretty easy, for a generous definition of easy.
17:13	technomancy	oh, never mind
17:13	technomancy	you're talking about going the other way
17:13	edw	And when I say "Emacs" I mean _an_ Emacs, something that acts like Emacs.
17:13	technomancy	yeah, I'm talking about elisp as a compilation target
17:14	mk	do you mean an editor that is hooked up to clojure?
17:15	mk	(as html is to javascript)
17:15	Raynes	In technomancy fantasy you'd be able to hack Emacs with Clojure.
17:15	sjl	Anyone know of any still-maintained clojure templating libraries I've missed here? https://gist.github.com/2022375
17:15	edw	mk: I mean an editor written in Clojure (or CLJS) that is to its core a structural editor. I've been thinking about this since I saw the video of the "Principle-based Development" talk.
17:16	fliebel	technomancy: It seems only "cosmetic changes" are required to hack cljs to compile to scheme, since elisp is also lisp, you're only a few more "cosmetic changes" away.
17:16	technomancy	fliebel: except for mutable strings
17:16	TimMc	edw: Someone had better get a surface-syntax reader going.
17:16	technomancy	that's a disaster that's just not going away =(
17:16	amalloy	sjl: (fn [s] (str "<html><body>" s "</body></html>")) is a feature-rich one i just invented
17:16	mk	edw: link to talk?
17:16	eggsby	edw: great talk
17:17	TimMc	amalloy: Needs moar doctype.
17:17	eggsby	mk: vimeo.com/36579366
17:17	edw	eggsby: Thanks. Beat me.
17:17	edw	TimMc: surface-syntax?
17:17	jimduey	We need a structural editor with Vim key bindings written in Clojure. :)
17:17	technomancy	elisp strings are so crazy
17:18	technomancy	they're fixed-length, but you can still aset on them =(
17:18	TimMc	&(pr-str (read-string "#()")) ; edw: This does not preserve surface syntax.
17:18	lazybot	⇒ "(fn* [] ())"
17:19	edw	Ah. Yes, I was planning on supporting that.
17:20	TimMc	A reader that can preserve comments, whitespace, and reader macros would be useful in many projects.
17:20	pandeiro	is there a clever way to know the index with doseq?
17:20	edw	TimMc: But that's where I was going to lean on the browser: encoding the surface syntax in a DOM.
17:21	TimMc	I think there's a mismatch between those, nesting or not.
17:22	edw	Hmm?
17:22	TimMc	That is, I think the data models have a false similarity.
17:23	TimMc	I'm not prepared to defend that assertion, though.
17:25	edw	TimMc: I'm not thinking of a one-for-one mapping. For example, my toy version uses a pair DOM element inside of map elements to hold a key and a value element because I've noticed that odd numbers of elements inside a map are a problem I create. Similarly, I have a string element that holds strings; I don't depend on a bare text node.
17:29	mk	why is it worth pursuing such an editor in clojure, given that there are many other available editors?
17:29	edw	mk: There is one decent editor for Clojure.
17:29	mk	is it the repl?
17:29	edw	No, it is Emacs.
17:30	mk	right :)
17:30	mk	what's the problem with emacs?
17:30	rhc	edw: with respect to editing clojure, how is it better than vim?
17:30	Raynes	I'm fine with Vim.
17:31	edw	I love BBEdit--I'm even in the credits page--but it's just not up to structural editing.
17:31	edw	rhc: Paredit.
17:31	rhc	i was talking here yesterday about learning emacs
17:31	aperiodic	paredit.vim
17:31	Raynes	edw: Vim has paredit.
17:31	edw	Ah. OK. In that case...
17:31	rhc	keeps track of your parens or what?
17:31	lypanov	ah maybe i need to try that was missing it.
17:31	Raynes	edw: If you want to argue Emacs vs Vim, complain about VimL.
17:32	edw	But Riasstradh would be the first to admit, paredit is ghetto.
17:32	Raynes	Compared to elisp it is pretty atrocious.
17:32	Raynes	Well, compared to anything really.
17:32	edw	I'm not a vi hater; I didn't realize "you" had paredit on vi.
17:32	lypanov	Raynes: i'd like to port vim to in browser clojurescript just as i once did for ruby
17:32	TimMc	lypanov: paredit will blow your mind
17:33	amalloy	lypanov: paredit does better than that
17:33	lypanov	(though for ruby i did that with curses not in browser)
17:33	amalloy	it takes some getting used to, though. as soon as you type (, the matching ) appears
17:33	lypanov	neat. thats what i need.
17:33	edw	Once you have a sorta-structural editor, you want a real one.
17:34	lypanov	i'd actually like to "invent" a visual form of clojure so that ()s just disappear. but for the moment i'll just stick to paredit.vim
17:34	muhoo	wow, couchdb is fantastic. thanks.
17:34	edw	I still manage to fuck up my buffers occasionally through improper killing and/or yanking.
17:35	TimMc	undo undo undo
17:35	mk	visual representations of languages are interesting, but I've never seen it done well
17:37	edw	mk: The value of structural editing isn't that it's visual (ignoring for a moment the inherent visual nature of text...) but that it enforces syntax at all times.
17:37	edw	Or if not syntax, at least form.
17:37	edw	"Syntax...that'll take a while."
17:39	mk	edw: why is that important?
17:39	lypanov	mk: aye thats why i haven't bothered yet. i haven't even finished joy of clojure yet so i have no right making a visual rep of it :)
17:40	rhc	lypanov: how do you like "joy of clojure"?
17:40	edw	Because doing it manually is a huge PITA. And it allows what people who write in Blub call "refactoring" to be done very efficiently.
17:40	mk	I'm thinking of changing code from one arrangement to another - in between the two, it doesn't seem important that the code is coherent
17:40	lypanov	mk: i previously wanted it so that i could make an touch / iPad based ui for editing source but realized its a stupid idea eventually as no touch ui could ever allow quick data entry for known tokens, only exploration.
17:41	lypanov	rhc: loving it.
17:41	lypanov	rhc: but actual coding is getting in the way alas ;)
17:41	mk	edw: but refactoring can be done as long as there is a point in time when the syntax is fine - it doesn't have to always be enforced - or so it seems to me
17:42	mk	lypanov: do you have any examples of what sort of visual exploration you're thinking of?
17:42	lypanov	for lisp, why not enforce. nothing lost. semantically it can be incorrect but loss of syntax is silly with such minimal syntax.
17:43	lypanov	for e.g. ruby yes, i agree.
17:43	ivan___	lypanov: i got the original ipad, which I used a lot as I just left my laptop at work, but then I changed jobs, and laptop is at home, and ipad sits there doing nothing... i will never git another tablet in the foresable future
17:43	edw	I can "write" a novel by clicking on pixels to spell out word with the pencil tool in MacPaint...or I can use a word processor.
17:43	ivan___	get*
17:43	lypanov	ivan___: i have and hate my original laptop because the browser is just slow enough to make the device basically unusable. i've since bought a kindle and loooooove it.
17:44	lypanov	i'll buy an iPad 7 or whatever when they have e-ink. until then i don't want headaches anyway so won't touch one.
17:44	lypanov	um, original ipad*
17:44	ivan___	lazybot: well, i have a quad core i7 in my laptop, its faster than my equally expensive desktop heh
17:44	ivan___	or
17:44	ivan___	lol
17:44	ivan___	oh*
17:44	mk	I'm thinking of cases where you break syntax while moving between two valid versions of code. Imagine pasting one half of a snippet in, and then the other half
17:45	ivan___	lypanov: all this stuff about tablets replacing tv's, utter bs
17:45	patrikkarlin	i dont have a tv ;P
17:45	edw	mk: I'm simply arguing that the tools we're using are deeply retarded.
17:45	ivan___	until they come up with a method to input via thinking in a fast and efficent way, tablets, wearable computers etc are all going to be limited in use
17:45	lypanov	edw: agreed.
17:46	mk	edw: I'm with you there, and I agree with your point about structure-awareness helping with that
17:47	sjl	So of all the many "Clojure version of Parsec" projects out there, are there any that are actively maintained?
17:47	dnolen	cemerick: you have to be careful with aget vs. property access, google advanced compilation will rename "static" properties making aget not work as expected.
17:47	eggsby	mr losh
17:47	eggsby	parsotron or w/e, right?
17:47	eggsby	nate youngs project
17:47	sjl	Parsatron is the one that looks like it has some recent activity a few months ago...
17:47	sjl	eggsby: yeah
17:48	eggsby	I would say that is your best bet
17:48	cemerick	dnolen: that makes things more interesting; I have an (aget obj "foo") that always works, and a (.-foo obj) that always returns nil.
17:48	mk	as for visual editors, yes, text is visual, but sometimes it just doesn't compare with a picture of some sort
17:48	sjl	eggsby: ok, cool, that's what I guessed. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing one
17:50	TimMc	edw: Structure-awareness gives you basic syntactic correctness, yes -- but much more importantly it allows you to think in structures, not strings.
17:50	sjl	eggsby: wasn't there a talk about it somewhere online, or am I thinking of something else?
17:50	eggsby	sjl: ya nate young gave a talk on it at strangeloop iirc
17:50	eggsby	sjl: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Parser-Combinators
17:50	sjl	aha, found it http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Parser-Combinators
17:51	eggsby	:)
17:51	sjl	ha
17:51	mk	TimMc: how does one think in strings?
17:51	TimMc	When editing JS, etc.
17:52	mk	like, passing to an eval?
17:52	eggsby	structure seems more like the OO approach, doesn't it? Where engineering is likened to architecture, how would you visualize lisp?
17:52	mk	eggsby: a tree
17:52	eggsby	How would you visualize verbs
17:52	eggsby	mk: that would be really cool, ya
17:53	eggsby	If you could see the tree visualized real time
17:53	mk	eggsby: well, as far as the code goes, you somewhat do (you have the source)
17:54	eggsby	ya the code structure does mirror the tree structure, but I just mean visually the way we are used to seeing trees
17:54	mk	but there are all sorts of interesting things missing - the data, various thread interactions, performance metrics
17:55	eggsby	http://joelneely.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/foldtreeplain.jpg?w=312&h=271
17:55	eggsby	like if I could visually see something like this rendered alongside my editor
17:55	mk	eggsby: or if it was your editor
17:56	edw`	Right, that's where I was going. I want to be able to e.g. select a chunk of code and extract it into a named function.
17:57	lypanov	eggsby: while i like this for a repl. i don't think anything that departs from the presentation you edit in makes sense.
17:57	mk	lypanov: make it the presentation you edit in
17:58	mk	edw`: you're thinking via mouse drag and drop?
17:58	lypanov	mk: i was more thinking nested rectangles with function name in the corner
17:59	lypanov	imo layout of the params can provide a sufficient differentiation that most code could be layer out
17:59	lypanov	actual layout is a bitch yes. heuristic hell. but still i believe its good enough.
17:59	mk	lypanov: well, outlining functions in a way that you can pick out the 'visual space' the function takes up is a good thing
18:00	mk	this is what paren coloring does, but you have to scan around for the other paren yourself. With a box around the whole thing it's much easier
18:00	lypanov	nod
18:01	lypanov	though you don't actually need outer level boxes, they can be collapsed.
18:01	edw`	mk: I'm thinking of an Emacs-like approach (M-x extract-expr-as-func) for now; I don't really care about crap like DnD.
18:01	lypanov	only structurally separating boxes need to actually be rendered. most can be delineated by color.
18:01	lypanov	(fill color i mean)
18:02	mk	it can be cursor sensitive. The point is that you lose something when you take a few milliseconds to scan for the other paren
18:02	lypanov	or when you screw up the parens ( as i'm doing frequently ) because indent isn't enforced.
18:03	lypanov	does paredit.vim enforce indent?
18:03	mk	edw`: gotcha
18:04	aperiodic	lypanov: VimClojure has good indenting rules for clojure
18:05	lypanov	aperiodic: i use vimclojure but it doesn't really seem to enforce them.
18:05	lypanov	i think i'd like completely auto-indent/style
18:06	mk	something that's definitely missing is a mapping between what a programmer sees on the screen, and what's actually running
18:06	aperiodic	lypanov: mine auto-indents, but i can modify the indentation if i choose. not sure if that's what you want or not.
18:07	lypanov	aperiodic: yeah i mean after a ) having the entire block autoindent.
18:07	TimMc	Have y'all seen the code overview pane in Dr Racket?
18:08	mk	at this point, you start blurring the line between interface design and coding - if what you see is some sort of advanced repl, then what you do when you code is you design a programmer's interface to the process
18:08	Raynes	lypanov: =ab
18:08	TimMc	http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_gJUvnpacURg/SI-cUBJB31I/AAAAAAAAADw/k434suYJVQI/s320/Picture%2B5.png
18:09	TimMc	Not the best pic of it, but good enough.
18:09	lypanov	Raynes: thank you.
18:10	lypanov	Raynes: for debugging wtf i did wrong that'll save me an insane amount of time. double thank you.
18:10	mk	yeah, that's in that... black-themed editor that occasionally pops up on hn. Seems like you'd no longer need the scroll bars
18:11	TimMc	OK, better version: http://plt-scheme.org/screenshots/drscheme-env.jpg
18:11	mk	furthermore, why show all the code, anyway? Just show a heatmap of where you've been looking, and typing.
18:11	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
18:11	lypanov	mk: sublime text.
18:11	mk	lypanov: yep, that's the one
18:12	lypanov	my favorite editor, though not for a language i care for, is the code bubbles ui.
18:12	jaen	This one java ide experiment?
18:12	lypanov	imo that sort of interaction, plus some touch ui is the "future".
18:12	lypanov	jaen: nod
18:13	mk	the problem with the outlines is they tell you nothing about what the code is doing. You can't look at part of that code and say "that's probably something that messes with the data here"
18:13	jaen	It looked pretty cool in vids, haven't tried that though; in fact I thought there was no publicly available version
18:16	lypanov	jaen: they went vs-y http://blogs.msdn.com/b/camerons/archive/2012/01/31/debugger-canvas-1-1-released.aspx
18:16	sritchie	cemerick: figured it OUT
18:16	lypanov	(makes sense tbh given the reach)
18:16	sritchie	it's a really odd bug
18:18	jaen	Huh, vs-y? Are those the same guys?
18:19	jaen	I had an impression code bubbles was for java. Did they switch the sides or I just had wrong impression?
18:19	photex	holy crap… power went out at work… workstation is back up, but now clojure-jack-in fails with SIGFPE :(
18:19	sritchie	ibdknox: you offered critical help here, asynchronously
18:19	photex	lein repl works
18:19	sritchie	ibdknox: with a little comment down here: https://github.com/ibdknox/live-cljs
18:19	photex	something in .emacs.d perhaps?
18:19	photex	lein swank works
18:19	photex	arrrrrrrrg
18:20	mk	lypanov: I saw that a while ago, and it was interesting, but I think a lot of it was just rearranging various components of e.g. eclipse
18:20	photex	stupid southern california brown outs
18:20	sritchie	cemerick: it looks like the Clojurescript compiler gets AOT compiled under some conditions w/ Leiningen 1.7.0
18:20	sritchie	not sure sure how
18:20	sritchie	but when it happens, the first time you try to save a view you get "assertion failed: can't recur here"
18:20	sritchie	and from then on the cljs compiler produces malformed cljs
18:20	sritchie	s/cljs/javascript
18:20	lypanov	sritchie: possibly unrelated but noir-cljs disables aot
18:21	emezeske	sritchie: The clojurescript compiler will not work when AOT-ed
18:21	lypanov	ah sorry now i see your ibdknox commentns
18:21	photex	error is raised in clojure-mode.el
18:21	sritchie	emezeske: I needed to AOT compile my main method,
18:21	photex	from clojure-jack-in-sentinel
18:21	emezeske	sritchie: There's a bug where some metadata is not saved in the AOT files that the compiler needs to work correctly
18:21	emezeske	sritchie: A clojure bug that is
18:21	sritchie	which is transitively aot compiling the cljs compiler after a couple of hops
18:22	lypanov	jaen: they worked with m$ research on it. yes it was previously eclipse
18:22	emezeske	sritchie: Yeah, that is the exact thing that prompted me to write lein-cljsbuild
18:22	lypanov	jaen: m$ are doing f'n crazy crap lately.
18:22	sritchie	emezeske: the issue here is the cemerick is using the compiler to generate views for CouchDB
18:22	sritchie	and that happens in-project
18:22	lypanov	(visual studio 11 beta has things like "inspect element" like hover over in web apps -> shows view code)
18:22	jaen	Well, I prefer C# over Java language-wise and quite the contrary VM and ecosystem wise.
18:23	jaen	Yeah, the web stuff in new VS is crazy ; d
18:23	sritchie	emezeske: lein-cljsbuild is great, I use it for my cljs
18:23	emezeske	sritchie: Ah, well then you're in a bind :/
18:23	sritchie	emezeske:
18:23	sritchie	yup
18:23	sritchie	luckily views only have to be created once....
18:23	sritchie	so I can just rm -rf classes/cljs
18:23	sritchie	emezeske: good to know, though, now I know what's up
18:24	emezeske	sritchie: I'm trying to track down the bug that breaks everything
18:24	sritchie	emezeske: it's a combo of that bug you described and clojure AOT compiling deps
18:25	emezeske	sritchie: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-130 is related I think
18:26	emezeske	sritchie: Yeah, exactly
18:27	lypanov	jaen: im(ns)ho m$ is getting a lot right lately.
18:28	lypanov	jaen: i was pushing for more of a binding style approach for apps when i found knockout which led to finding the major m$ push for functional reactive
18:28	lypanov	i'd really like to an idiomatic knockout port for clojurescript
18:28	bsteuber	they better start doing something right :)
18:29	jaen	m$ is pushing for FRP? Now, that I didn't expect.
18:29	lypanov	jaen: majorly.
18:29	lypanov	massive push for async lately.
18:30	lypanov	bsteuber: they are. IE10. WP7. W8. etc. no clue what changed. but somehow...
18:30	jaen	Though they do have their ocaml knockoff
18:30	lypanov	f# 3.0 is adding some really sweet stuff.
18:30	jaen	So maybe they do feel some functional vibe
18:30	bsteuber	to be fair, .net already moves into a good direction for quite a while
18:30	lypanov	c# is getting more and more functional.
18:30	jaen	Any lsit of the sweet stuff?
18:31	bsteuber	f# is pretty neatr, too
18:31	bsteuber	oh you already said that ^^
18:31	lypanov	jaen: i started watching http://channel9.msdn.com/, that has most of it
18:32	jaen	Uh, videocasts : D I'm always looking for "transcript" buttons on such pages : D
18:32	lypanov	still i wouldn't want it on my server platform. just think they have good ideas wrt languages and application building.
18:32	lypanov	jaen: i use mplayer at 1.7x while i tidy.
18:33	bsteuber	lypanov: Windows Phone is good now? hard to imagine..
18:33	lypanov	bsteuber: just bought a nokia lumia and really loving it. everything that iPhone sucks for lacking that android couldn't make usable.
18:33	jaen	As for knockout.js - it seems like a really nice thing to me from cursory glances I had at it
18:33	bsteuber	I'm not sure whether I should be sad or confused M$ now makes more money from android than their own OS
18:33	jaen	And yes, it would be a nice thing to have a similar framework in idiomatic cljs
18:34	lypanov	jaen: using it in production and it led to 2x js code decrease.
18:34	lypanov	bsteuber: sad.
18:35	lypanov	jaen: i'll start on it whenever i finish JoC :)
18:35	jaen	Sounds like a good plan ; )
18:36	bsteuber	knockout really seems cool
18:36	bsteuber	but weird to use html attrs for programming, though :)
18:36	lypanov	there are several others, e.g. backbone.
18:37	lypanov	bsteuber: i want haml style clojure view syntax eg blah{html-attrs}[ko-attrs]
18:37	lypanov	will extend hiccup whenever i get irrationally bored
18:38	bsteuber	lypanov: what's wrong with hiccup?
18:38	lypanov	lack of data-bind integration. don't want to see data-bind and its extra nesting level.
18:38	bsteuber	ah ok, thought sth. else in general
18:38	lypanov	no.
18:38	bsteuber	yes that would definitely rock
18:39	lypanov	i hated e.g. haml when i first saw it but eventually realized its the only sane pragmatic path
18:39	jaen	bsteuber: weird? From what I've seen recently everyone and his dog is using data attrs in JS since Rails proclaimed it the way ; D
18:40	lypanov	jaen: not just rails. its a html5 thang.
18:40	lypanov	query was first imo.
18:40	lypanov	jquery*
18:40	bsteuber	jaen: must have missed that - but my web dev carrier is quite young..
18:40	lypanov	(though maybe someone else was before even that)
18:41	lypanov	bsteuber: in case you haven't already seen, i'd advise http://www.flapjax-lang.org/publications/
18:42	bsteuber	lypanov: thanks, I'll check it out
18:43	bsteuber	ah that's the scheme guy
18:43	bsteuber	shiriam krishnamurthi
18:44	jaen	As for haml, it's really cool if you consider the usual templating stuff
18:44	jaen	But since I've seen enlive I think it's even cooler
18:45	bsteuber	enlive always seemed too sophisticated for me
18:45	bsteuber	functions generating hiccup vecs are way simpler to use
18:46	bsteuber	well of course if you have to manipulate external html enlive is just great
18:46	bsteuber	so maybe it depends on whether or not you outsource the html to a designer
18:46	jaen	But then you loose all the potential webdesigners due to parenthesis angst ; D
18:46	bsteuber	^^
18:46	jaen	Yeah, this.
18:47	bsteuber	well in our project, we provide the html, and our designer does just css
18:47	bsteuber	works pretty well
18:48	muhoo	isn't cljs kind of the knockout/backbone thing?
18:48	lypanov	designers i know don't mind data-bind.
18:48	jaen	I find it really funny, that all the people at my university have parenthesis angst
18:48	lypanov	bsteuber: used to use pure.js
18:49	bsteuber	the funny thing is, even lispers have it
18:49	bsteuber	I found that when talking about Clojure with CL geeks
18:49	lypanov	overall i think designers dislike data-bind declarations with sane git usage less than they dislike having to add random class/id's on request
18:49	bsteuber	"uh, it has other types of parens, scary.."
18:49	jaen	I sort of have it too, I appreciate the power of LISP but still somewhat wish it to have the usual syntax ~~'
18:49	jaen	bsteuber: hahaha
18:50	bsteuber	jaen: for how long are you using lisps?
18:51	jaen	I have more of casual interest in lisp. I've read SICP but never used it for anything big.
18:51	lypanov	muhoo: cljs has very little in common with those projects. its just a different source language for generating javascript. much like coffee script for example.
18:51	bsteuber	at least for most people, it goes away after a while
18:52	lypanov	bsteuber: took around 8 months of which 5 were practical
18:52	jaen	Though I'll be using Clojure for my neural network project this semester hoping I can learn it as I go along ; )
18:53	lypanov	now clojure looks nicer to me than ruby. which since '00 has been my fave lang by far
18:53	lypanov	sorry i mean 8 months / 5 weeks
18:54	bsteuber	lypanov: I did have some fun with haskell between ruby and clj
18:54	bsteuber	before of which I did common lisp
18:55	bsteuber	but clj is my favorite language for 2 years now, that's probably a record :)
18:55	lypanov	i played with factor and applescript (of all things) in between. and a bit of scala.
18:56	muhoo	i've put in, so far, about 150 hours on clojure, and i'm finally starting to almost start thinking in it.
18:56	bsteuber	^^
18:56	lypanov	i actually had the experience of being 100% certain that scala was the Right Path.
18:56	lypanov	then trying to use it practically and giving up after 3 days.
18:57	bsteuber	I couldn't decide whether to pick scala or clojure
18:57	lypanov	played with clojure again for the hell of it and everything Just Worked
18:57	lypanov	mostly thx to lein and clojars
18:57	lypanov	clojuredocs.org/ is also absolutely wonderful
18:57	bsteuber	funny how things work out
18:58	lypanov	helps that i don't believe in docs and prefer code.
18:58	bsteuber	or IDE's ^^
18:59	bsteuber	ok without emacs I'd probably be a sclarian now oO
18:59	lypanov	i do believe in IDEs else i wouldn't discuss visual representations. :)
18:59	lypanov	i used intellij for scala.
18:59	bsteuber	but back to reactive gui programming in cljs
18:59	lypanov	but was able to stick with vim for clojure thanks to the wonderful work thats been done on the vimclojure project.
18:59	bsteuber	if I want that, which path would you recommend?
19:00	bsteuber	probably just pick one js lib for that and generate the attrs nicely?
19:00	lypanov	bsteuber: a) wait until i figure it out, b) figure it out and i'll wait and you tell me
19:00	bsteuber	harr
19:00	Raynes	Three cheers for Meikel Brandmeyer.
19:00	lypanov	atm i have jquery/raphael/closure library experience
19:00	lypanov	Raynes: +++!
19:00	lypanov	and lots of ko.js + javascript.
19:01	lypanov	but i never fitted the two together.
19:01	lypanov	thats my next step but a good 2-3 months away.
19:01	bsteuber	usually when I need something, ibdknox has it on github the next day
19:01	lypanov	:P
19:01	lypanov	noir-cljs rocks.
19:01	bsteuber	so I'll just go to bed and check back tomorrow
19:01	bsteuber	^^
19:01	bsteuber	nice
19:01	bsteuber	how do you do css gen?
19:01	bsteuber	we're still using compass
19:02	lypanov	i'm using less js
19:02	lypanov	compass drives me absolutely crazy
19:02	bsteuber	but of course I'd prefer clojureland
19:02	jaen	I like stylus quite a bit
19:02	lypanov	our app is RoR + clojurescript
19:02	lypanov	but i'm making the move to RoR + clojure + clojurescript the last 2 weeks
19:02	jaen	Sass/Scss put me off when I saw that variables don't have scopes in it ; d
19:03	lypanov	jaen: yeah thats ugly.
19:03	lypanov	i put me off when i realized that basically it simply doesn't work.
19:03	lypanov	:P
19:03	lypanov	it*
19:03	lypanov	i like lessjs. it does the job.
19:03	eggsby	less seems to have the most momentum
19:03	eggsby	but I prefer stylus as well, I use less however :p
19:03	bsteuber	never heard of it before, interesting evening for me :)
19:03	lypanov	i'm going to play with https://github.com/edgecase/dieter in the near future.
19:04	lypanov	not a fan of old sass. prefer sass so stylus also not for me.
19:04	lypanov	like just pasting.
19:05	nDuff	I'm trying to use AOT compilation to implement a plugin interface for a 3rd-party tool. When loading plugins, it creates a classloader pointing to their jar, and calls Class.forName(className, true, classloader). However, clojure.Lang.Namespace.findOrCreate fails in clojure.lang.Namespace.<init> unless the uberjar is in the system classpath (not just the local classloader). What should be done differently?
19:05	bsteuber	somehow embedding stuff like css compilation into ring middleware still seems strange to me
19:06	bsteuber	I would always prefer to have my build tool do this kind of stuff
19:06	cemerick	emezeske: won't work, as in, under no circumstances?
19:06	lypanov	:cache-mode :development ; or :production. :development disables cacheing
19:06	weavejester	bsteuber: Clojure is compiled on the fly, so why not CSS? :)
19:06	lypanov	i'm assuming this means that dieter won't do it anyway on the actual production server
19:06	lypanov	if you preload the resources
19:07	lypanov	does something like unicorn exist for clojure?
19:07	cemerick	oh, namespace metadata
19:07	bsteuber	weavejester: not the clojure I deploy on our server :P
19:07	lypanov	allowing me to bind something to a socket and kill the old after a bit?
19:07	weavejester	Dieter's a little curious though, as it's basically a Ring wrapper around its own custom middleware system.
19:08	weavejester	bsteuber: You AOT compile everything?
19:08	lypanov	i haven't any experience with it yet. it just popped up in search
19:08	emezeske	cemerick: Yeah, the clojurescript compiler inspects the :macros metadata on some Vars
19:08	lypanov	personally i use RoR assets at the moment and it precompiles all resources statically
19:08	bsteuber	weavejester: yes, but that's also because it's closed source
19:08	lypanov	(via closure compiler)
19:08	jaen	lypanov: stylus is pretty flexible about syntax - it can be anywhere between whitespace guided and css superset
19:08	emezeske	cemerick: Which apparently gets lost when AOTed
19:08	cemerick	emezeske: yup, http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-130
19:08	lypanov	jaen: ah, then i like :)
19:08	weavejester	bsteuber: Ohh
19:09	lypanov	jaen: superset is a real important feature for me
19:09	cemerick	reason #83 to avoid AOT
19:09	emezeske	cemerick: Yeah, that was my first real introduction to AOT pain
19:09	emezeske	cemerick: It would be nice if it were fixed though
19:09	bsteuber	weavejester: but I admit it might be nice not having to launch my watchers
19:09	cemerick	weavejester: thanks for taking in that pull req
19:10	lypanov	i shall kick myself to work faster on FRP now that i know there is interest
19:10	lypanov	at first it'll probably just be a lame externs file allowing knockout usage tho
19:10	cemerick	weavejester: I wonder if I can bug you enough to do an 0.6.2 release? That will make all the leiningen examples in the book compatible with 1.7 and 2.0. :-P
19:11	bsteuber	lypanov: so just using a plain js lib for this won't work?
19:11	weavejester	cemerick: I'll do it tonight.
19:11	lypanov	bsteuber: you still need an externs file for advanced closure compiler to work.
19:11	cemerick	emezeske: fixing AOT transitivity is probably an easier fix, though that's long-standing as well.
19:11	cemerick	weavejester: my hero :-)
19:11	bsteuber	lypanov: that seems acceptable
19:12	bsteuber	well depending on the file size ^^
19:12	emezeske	cemerick: Yeah, that would be good too
19:13	sandover	anyone have a handy example of using parsatron to do something real?
19:15	lypanov	bsteuber: ko is teeny.
19:16	lypanov	bsteuber: and we don't even locally have major issues with using non advanced as our base load never increases.
19:16	bsteuber	lypanov: so?
19:16	lypanov	bsteuber: (our site is a web app and not single-view driven)
19:17	lypanov	but certainly for something else e.g. a content site you'll need full advanced setup.
19:17	lypanov	wife tells me its 12:15 even tho for some reason my irc client says its 11:15 so apparently i have to go to bed.
19:18	bsteuber	lypanov: oh, also CET?
19:18	bsteuber	germany here
19:18	lypanov	bsteuber / jaen et all: enjoyable chat. thx guys. will stick something on github at some point and mention something somewhere :)
19:18	lypanov	bsteuber: .nl
19:19	bsteuber	I always wanted o drop by amsterdam clj group :)
19:19	bsteuber	maybe one day I will
19:19	bsteuber	ok, I'll go sleep as well
19:19	bsteuber	^^
19:19	bsteuber	bye everyone and thanks for the interesting links
19:23	eggsby	Grr, I'm still struggling with java interop. In what ways are (. target member) and target/member notation different?
19:24	dedeibel_	eggsby: target/member is for static variable, like (Integer/parseInt "1")
19:24	eggsby	why can I call (. Math PI) and Math/PI and have it return the same thing, while (Character/isWhitespace \space) works though ((. Character isWhitespace) \space) returns a field not found error
19:25	tmciver	eggsby: target/member is for static member access.
19:25	muhoo	any ideas why this is giving me fits? https://refheap.com/paste/1265
19:25	muhoo	it returns an seq of #<user$eval337$fn__338 user$eval337$fn__338@c67a88>
19:25	tmciver	you need (Math/PI) as PI is a static member of Math.
19:26	dedeibel_	eggsby: maybe (. can do more than / - Classes are just kind of objects too in some use cases
19:26	muhoo	what is that usr#eval337 actually?
19:26	muhoo	<user$eval337$fn__337> yadda,
19:26	amalloy	you have a sequence of ten functions
19:27	muhoo	oh, they're not getting evaled
19:27	muhoo	got it
19:27	amalloy	well, ten copies of the same function
19:27	amalloy	&(doc repeatedly) ; muhoo
19:27	lazybot	⇒ "([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"
19:27	muhoo	ok, what i'm trying to get to happen, is for that function to get executed 10 times and return a seq of those return values
19:27	Raynes	amalloy works faster when you use refheap. That should be incentive enough for people to use refheap.
19:27	muhoo	thanks!
19:28	muhoo	(not (= repeat repeatedly)), doh!
19:28	muhoo	perfect, thanks amalloy!
19:31	arohner	is there an inverse of bean?
19:37	TimMc	Someone was asking that...
19:37	TimMc	arohner: Ask gfrederi`
19:39	TimMc	arohner: https://github.com/fredericksgary/lib-2367 looks like it
19:39	arohner	TimMc: thanks, but not quite what I'm looking for
19:40	arohner	I have normal java classes that I call bean on, and I'd like to construct a new java instance from the map
19:44	TimMc	And that instance must implement certain interfaces, yes?
19:44	TimMc	Oh, you want to use the same class, got it.
19:45	TimMc	bean should be called unbean, and the inverse should be rebean
19:49	arohner	is there a non-special form for calling a java constructor?
19:52	TimMc	Making a macro?
19:53	technomancy	it'd be kinda cool if you could use into for that
19:55	aperiodic	i remember someone providing an example of calling a constructor via the reflector
19:55	arohner	TimMc: yes, I'm writing unbean/rebean
19:56	aperiodic	as an alternative to (eval `(ctor. ~@ctor-args))
19:56	dnolen	huh, core.logic is nifty if you want to build wacky DSLs
19:56	arohner	aperiodic: I don't know the class name at compile time
19:56	dnolen	like a macro that takes english and generates Clojure code
19:56	aperiodic	arohner: ah, no dice, then
19:56	TimMc	arohner: "new"
19:57	TimMc	but again, only helpful if you're writing a macro
19:58	TimMc	oh hey
19:58	TimMc	&(.newInstance String)
19:58	lazybot	⇒ ""
19:58	TimMc	arohner: ^
19:59	arohner	TimMc: aha, thanks
20:00	arohner	looks like java.lang.reflect.Constructor.newInstance() is also possible, if arguments to the constructor are necessary
20:00	technomancy	any aleph pros know if aleph uses netty for framing?
20:00	amalloy	clojure.lang.Reflector has helper methods for that kind of thing
20:02	TimMc	$inc amalloy
20:02	lazybot	⇒ 21
20:02	TimMc	haha, Util.sneakyThrow
20:08	TimMc	&(.getMethod String "contains" (into-array Class [String]))
20:08	lazybot	java.lang.NoSuchMethodException: java.lang.String.contains(java.lang.String)
20:08	TimMc	&(.getMethod String "contains" (into-array Class [CharSequence]))
20:08	lazybot	⇒ #<Method public boolean java.lang.String.contains(java.lang.CharSequence)>
20:09	TimMc	I see, I thought Class.getMethod did reflective matching for you. Now I see why c.l.Reflector exists.
20:19	RickInGA	style question, I am writing a game similar to tic-tac-toe. I am representing game state in an atom called board. Many of my functions have to read the state of the board. Is it most appropriate to pass board, @board or not pass either, read it from global state?
20:20	dnolen	wacky DSL parsing with core.logic, https://github.com/jonase/kibit/pull/20
20:20	amalloy	RickInGA: have you considered writing it with no state at all? for a game as simple as tic tac toe that's not hard, and might be instructive
20:21	technomancy	well
20:21	technomancy	keeping state on the stack, no atom at all
20:22	amalloy	well, "stack". i'd mostly keep it in lazy sequences
20:22	amalloy	(drop-while not-done? (iterate next-turn the-board))
20:22	RickInGA	amalloy: never considered that. I am trying to envision it....
20:23	RickInGA	amalloy that will be a very interesting project.
20:24	RickInGA	technomancy: thanks for answer, going to stick with passing board for now.
20:25	technomancy	the other option is to (reduce next-move initial-board move-seq)
20:26	RickInGA	that is such a cool idea I am going to have to do it. Good learning experience
20:27	technomancy	spoiler alert: assoc-in is your friend for dealing with vector-of-vector boards
20:28	RickInGA	its been a long time since I have written something that I knew I would look back on in horror 6 months from now, but you have to start somewhere
20:28	technomancy	if you're lucky, it's a project you can throw away
20:29	technomancy	some people end up haunted by it for years
20:29	RickInGA	good point…
20:32	muhoo	so when i connect to a repl using tcp, is that a separate thread of execution from the other repl in the shell?
20:45	ataggart	Has anyone actively used Avout? I've been working with it today, and my app will (randomly?) lock up after a number of swap!! calls.
21:06	Zoka	For those of you have not seen it yesterday here it is again with bit more backgtound info:
21:06	Zoka	http://noirmon.herokuapp.com/ringmon/monview.html
21:06	Zoka	A web based interface to Cemerick's nREPL server incorporated within a typical Clojure web based application
21:06	Zoka	(in this case a Noir Blog sample app by ibdknox). Since Heroku, allows only
21:06	Zoka	one server TCP port per web app, this port (80) has to be shared between
21:07	Zoka	regular app traffic and nREPL server. The REPL interface at the browser is similar to CCW Eclipse Clojure plugin,
21:07	Zoka	it has 2 windows, one for submitting the Clojure forms and other (read only one) for nREPL responses.
21:07	Zoka	There is also a simple chat facility between active sessions.
21:07	Zoka	The REPL sessions are persistent, so if user goes offline, all his chat messages and accumulated
21:07	Zoka	Clojure script output belonging to his sesion will be delivered on next visit. Script execution in most of the cases can be
21:07	Zoka	stopped by 'Interrupt' button. There also tree alike monitoring data display for assorted JMX values, CPU load, and
21:07	Zoka	REPL sessions info.
21:07	Zoka	Note: this is not restricted environment like a Clojail - it is meant to be development tool and has
21:07	Zoka	a facility to hook in authentication function to control access in real-life usage. This is just a demo for
21:07	Zoka	https://github.com/zoka/ringMon/ which is in fact just a Ring middleware.
21:07	Zoka	You can kill it with one line of code, as somebody did yesterday :),
21:07	Zoka	but it will come back again in less than a minute. You can use a script to erase writeable files in app curent directory,
21:07	Zoka	but it will still come back again since Heroku uses ephemeral file system. Heroku apps are indistructable :)
21:07	Zoka	Sorry for the long ramble.
21:07	emezeske	Zoka: I think you meant to put that in a blog post :)
21:08	Zoka	I will taje it from logs:)
21:08	Zoka	s /taje/take/
21:08	lstoll	Zoka: that's awesome.
21:09	technomancy	Zoka: definitely looking forward to trying that out soon
21:09	Zoka	Thanks
21:09	technomancy	also, your nick reminds me of http://zokacoffee.com, which is delicious
21:10	Zoka	No relation
21:10	technomancy	too bad, but I won't hold it against you =)
21:11	RickInGA	technomancy I told my gf about you bringing press and thermometer to session. she was really impressed with the thermometer
21:11	brehaut	i find it really weird that press coffee is so popular in america
21:12	brehaut	and that filter is run of the mill; over here its the other way round
21:14	tmciver	brehaut: where's 'over here'? England?
21:14	brehaut	New Zealand
21:15	tmciver	it's gotta be late for you. What time is it?
21:15	brehaut	2:13PM
21:15	lstoll	middle of the day
21:15	brehaut	living in the future
21:15	lstoll	Living in the future is awesome
21:16	tmciver	you guys are so lucky. I can't wait till 2:13 tomorrow!
21:19	wmealing	lstoll, au ?
21:19	lstoll	wmealing: yeah, melbourne.
21:21	Frozenlock	Is there a way in seesaw/flow-panel to make a newline? I have multiple input boxes and they all are on the same line, which is really ugly.
21:22	Frozenlock	I would like a new line between each item : (flow-panel :items [ item-1 item-2 item3..]
21:23	RickInGA	Frozenlock: I don't know your answer, but I do know that if you can't get an answer here, you can post to the seesaw google group. Dave Ray, keeps close tabs on that
21:24	bytechunky	Does the upcoming book "Clojure Programming" from Chas Emerick et al cover Clojure 1.3.0?
21:25	Frozenlock	RickInGA: Thanks!
21:26	RickInGA	bytechunky: yes, the book "expects 1.3.0 or higher"
21:28	bytechunky	RickInGA: that's excellent!
21:29	RickInGA	bytechunky I have only looked at parts of it, but what I have read has been very helpful and very clear
21:30	RickInGA	I didn't understand the namespace macro until I read the explanation there
21:31	bytechunky	RickInGA: i read the first chapters of Joy of Clojure which i found pretty awesome. But i wd like to read up on some of the new stuff like deftype, defrecord, futures, promises
21:41	TakeV	Is there a way to turn symbols into strings?
21:42	apwalk	name
21:42	RickInGA	I have a function with a let in it. If I write (let (fn1 … ) (for ….) (fn2…) fn1 and fn2 get called.
21:42	RickInGA	If I write (let (fn1 …) (for …) fn1 and teh for loop get called
21:42	TakeV	apwalk: Thank you.
21:43	RickInGA	but I can't seem to get fn1, for and fn2 to all get called
21:46	tmciver	RickInGA: I don't follow. Perhaps you can refheap some sample code.
21:48	sjl	Anyone know why this wouldn't work? https://refheap.com/paste/1269
21:48	sjl	Is this `thrown?` thing in a Clojure test magical and unable to be used in a macro or something?
21:50	amalloy	RickInGA: laziness
21:50	tmciver	sjl: I'm not very good with macros but have you tried macroexpand-1 on a call to the macro?
21:50	amalloy	sjl: yes
21:51	RickInGA	tmciver: it is verbose… but here it is: https://refheap.com/paste/1270
21:51	sjl	amalloy: hmm, is there any way I can do what I'm trying to do here (make a shortcut for ensuring that an exception is thrown) or am I out of luck?
21:51	RickInGA	amalloy: adding another function call after the 'for' causes the for to not be evaluated?
21:51	amalloy	not exactly
21:52	amalloy	you're using `for` for side effects, which it is not designed for
21:52	amalloy	you should use a doseq for that
21:52	amalloy	(now don't you wish you'd taken the advice to do this with pure functions)
21:52	RickInGA	amalloy: thanks, I will try that
21:52	RickInGA	amalloy: hehe, do you think tic-tac-toe has an "explode" function?
21:53	amalloy	sjl: include the (is) in your macro
21:53	sjl	amalloy: I tried that -- same error (no such var: .../thrown?)
21:54	amalloy	oh
21:54	amalloy	~'thrown?
21:54	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:54	technomancy	brehaut: I actually like the (hand-poured) filter better, it just doesn't travel as well
21:54	RickInGA	technomancy: kemex filter?
21:55	technomancy	RickInGA: yeah
21:55	technomancy	also, aeropress is a lot nicer than french press IMO
21:55	RickInGA	technomancy: too funny, when I told gf the story, she said "I am surprised he doesn't use kemex"
21:56	technomancy	heh
21:56	technomancy	as long as you get the temp right aeropress is basically impossible to screw up; pour overs are a lot more temperamental.
21:56	RickInGA	damn, now I want coffee, and its like 10pm :(
21:57	pandeiro	is aeropress the italian style one that percolates up?
21:57	technomancy	pandeiro: no, that's siphon
21:58	brehaut	technomancy: yeah, hand poured filter is my preference too (ive got a small chemex)
21:59	brehaut	and preferably with single origin beans
22:00	technomancy	that's the way to go
22:00	brehaut	definately
22:01	RickInGA	I hope next year Clojurewest is in Seattle so I can find out what technomancy's favorite coffee is!
22:01	brehaut	my local roaster gets 'cup of excellence' beans for particular farms
22:01	brehaut	s/for/from/
22:02	technomancy	I had a travel grinder for this trip, so that was nice
22:02	pandeiro	here in brazil the siphon is popular, i had a french press back in the states, but for me nothing beats instant
22:02	technomancy	heh
22:02	brehaut	~guards
22:02	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:03	RickInGA	should be able to pass a parameter
22:03	RickInGA	~guards pandeiro
22:03	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
22:03	pandeiro	the guards all drink instant, too RickInGA it's no use
22:04	xeqi	sjl: that doesn't work because (is ..) has a special case when the first item in the list is 'thrown
22:04	technomancy	must be tough being an IRC guard
22:04	xeqi	and it does it as part of is's macroexpansion
22:04	technomancy	single-ply toilet paper, instant coffee... at least you get a fast network connection
22:04	xeqi	before parse-error would expand
22:04	technomancy	xeqi: that drives me nuts
22:04	sjl	xeqi: ahh
22:05	technomancy	thrown needs to be its own defmacro; it's stupid to special-case it
22:05	sjl	xeqi: is there any way around that?
22:06	brehaut	technomancy: what is siphon coffee like?
22:06	xeqi	looking/thinking
22:07	technomancy	brehaut: it's basically like a science experiment: https://twitter.com/#!/technomancy/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Fyfrog.com%2Fo0s1ngj
22:07	technomancy	bunsen burner and all
22:08	brehaut	technomancy: amazing
22:08	brehaut	how does it taste?
22:08	pandeiro	wait how's it different from a kettle? it's just a kettle with a coffee filter in it
22:08	pandeiro	brehaut: sedimenty \thats a word
22:09	brehaut	it looks kinda like a stove top espresso but more complicated?
22:10	pandeiro	cleaning it is the only complicated part
22:10	technomancy	it tastes like SCIENCE
22:10	brehaut	bahaha
22:10	pandeiro	instant?
22:10	pandeiro	instant is science
22:11	brehaut	enough of this instant trollery
22:13	RickInGA	oh? is instant karma going to get him?
22:13	pandeiro	i actually drank the stuff for about 2 months straight when i started drinking coffee again... it was a gateway drug ... after i'd been off the stuff for a couple years
22:14	pandeiro	i think the reason paper is best is the smell, at least with the italian one it doesnt fill the kitchen the same way
22:18	RickInGA	amalloy: thanks, doseq worked!
22:19	Frozenlock	If I want to manipulate my local IP address (say to get a broadcast address), what would be the best way? (.getHostAddress (java.net.InetAddress/getLocalHost)) + some regexp replacement, or is there a more elegant way?
22:33	xeqi	sjl: you could do something like https://refheap.com/paste/1271
22:34	xeqi	where you special case parse-error the same way as thrown
22:34	xeqi	but thats all I can think of
22:34	sjl	xeqi: ah... seems a bit ugly, but it works...
23:14	technomancy	Zoka: lein pom && mvn dependency:tree should help you track down the hiccup dep
23:24	xeqi	technomancy: pomegranate can figure out a dependency tree; know anyone working on a plugin for lein 2?
23:25	xeqi	might need to add that to my task list
23:28	technomancy	xeqi: cemerick has a gist, it's just not hooked up yet
23:28	technomancy	I'd like to add it to the deps task; maybe "lein deps :tree"
23:51	rhc	question about developing in the repl, if i have some long running thread and i want to update some event handler in the thread, should i just use a clojure ref while i'm doing development and update the ref in the repl with (require .. :reload) (dosync (ref-set ..)), or is there a better way so i dont have to add this wrapper only for repl dev?