#clojure – 2012-01-24

2012-01-24

01:18	phil_	is it possible to create cyclic maps in clojure? i.e. A <-> B <-> A?
01:24	G0SUB	phil_: yes. using deftype.
01:25	muhoo	watching the clojure data structures talk on blip.tv, he does (identical? "foo" "foo") and gets false
01:25	muhoo	&(identical? "foo" "foo")
01:25	lazybot	⇒ true
01:25	muhoo	!
01:25	manuel_	hi
01:25	manuel_	why does contains? return false on lists?
01:25	G0SUB	muhoo: literal strings are interned.
01:25	amalloy	~contains?
01:25	clojurebot	Excuse me?
01:25	amalloy	contains?
01:25	amalloy	damn it, who erased him?
01:25	manuel_	(contains? '(1 2 3 4) 1) => false
01:25	manuel_	~(contains? '(1 2 3 4) 1)
01:25	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
01:26	G0SUB	manuel_: contains? checks for the presence of the key. it should only be used on associative data-structures.
01:26	muhoo	G0SUB: yes, but my point is, he does something in his talk, it gets one result. i run the exact same thing in a repl, i get a different result
01:26	G0SUB	muhoo: who?
01:26	muhoo	rich hickey
01:26	manuel_	got it
01:26	G0SUB	muhoo: which talk?
01:26	manuel_	misleading name
01:27	manuel_	common-lisp style
01:27	muhoo	it's the clojure data structures intro talk
01:28	G0SUB	muhoo: hmm. something like contains? on a list will be O(n). you really need a set for this job.
01:28	muhoo	G0SUB: wrong dude
01:28	muhoo	i think manuel was asking about contains
01:29	G0SUB	muhoo: right. sorry.
01:29	G0SUB	manuel_: ^^
01:29	manuel_	so what i'm looking for would be (some #(= 1 %) '( 1 2 3 4 5))
01:29	G0SUB	manuel_: or (some #{1} '(1 2 3 4 5))
01:31	manuel_	uh how does that work?
01:32	G0SUB	manuel_: sets work as functions as well.
01:32	manuel_	ah got it
01:32	manuel_	yeah thx
01:32	manuel_	sorry i'm coming from CL (mostly) so getting a bit confused by the orthogonality
01:33	G0SUB	manuel_: true, the names & associated semantics can be confusing if you are used to CL.
01:33	muhoo	hashes are like functions too. clojure is trippy, especially coming from lisp
01:33	manuel_	but to be honest if the immutable/concurrency thing doesn't throw me off too much
01:33	G0SUB	muhoo: absolutely :-)
01:33	manuel_	i think i'm saying goodbye to CL
01:34	manuel_	i had the hashes thing down
01:34	G0SUB	manuel_: I said goodbye to CL in 2009 itself ;-)
01:34	manuel_	heh
01:34	manuel_	it's just too cumbersome when you need to do real life stuff with it
01:34	manuel_	well for me anyway
01:34	G0SUB	I love CL implementations, especially SBCL & Clozure CL. the language, not so much.
01:34	manuel_	ccl is cool yeah, thank god that one came around
01:35	manuel_	language i don't know, i'm just used to it
01:35	manuel_	not that i've been programming CL professionally a lot during for the last years
01:36	G0SUB	manuel_: honestly, I still believe that CL gives the programmer an incredible amount of power. not sure if that's a good thing though.
01:36	manuel_	computers give the programmer an incredible amount of power
01:37	kedoodek	"Unix gives you just enough rope to hang yourself"
01:37	manuel_	i'm going to the CL meetup tonight though
01:37	manuel_	hehe
01:42	muhoo	i'm ready to blow off all other languages and start using clojure for everything.
01:42	muhoo	let's see if i can find a way to make money doing that though :-)
01:42	schleyfox	muhoo: do it
01:42	manuel_	the right tool for the right job
01:43	schleyfox	I just had an analysis task I was running on some of the supporting things for my company's ruby on rails application
01:44	clj_newb	(defn pop [] ... ) <-- creates an warning; how can I turn off the warning? I have a class (ns my.stack) ... and I really want the function to be called pop, so I can use my.stack/pop my.stack/push
01:44	schleyfox	I wrote an initial version in ruby, making use of the existing internal libraries we had for it
01:44	clj_newb	(defn pop [] ... ) <-- creates an warning; how can I turn off the warning? I have a class (ns my.stack) ... and I really want the function to be called pop, so I can use my.stack/pop my.stack/push (I',m not actualy implementing a stack; but the point is the overriding clojure.pop is on purpose; I just want to turn off the warning for this particular function)
01:45	schleyfox	It took 50 minutes to run in moderately optimized ruby (though the underlying library was to blame). I rewrote it in basically the same amount of code and it now finishes in under a minute
01:45	schleyfox	*rewrote it in clojure
01:45	kedoodek	what about the libraries?
01:45	kedoodek	did you rewrite them in clojure as well?
01:45	schleyfox	I switched to lower level java ones
01:46	schleyfox	but the analysis code + the shims to treat it like I did in ruby were equivalent to the ruby analysis code alone
01:47	muhoo	nice
01:47	manuel_	is there a way to get line numbers in error messages in clojure-swank?
01:47	manuel_	in slime rather
01:48	manuel_	i always get messages like "don't know how to create iseq from symbol" but no indication as to what iseq
02:07	scottj	manuel_: C-c C-k is the best way to get line numbers in errors
02:11	muhoo	huh. lots of interesting surprises
02:11	muhoo	&(conj [ 1 2 3] 7)
02:11	lazybot	⇒ [1 2 3 7]
02:12	muhoo	(conj '(1 2 3) 7)
02:12	muhoo	&(conj '(1 2 3) 7)
02:12	lazybot	⇒ (7 1 2 3)
02:12	muhoo	!
02:13	muhoo	&(cons 7 [1 2 3])
02:13	lazybot	⇒ (7 1 2 3)
02:13	muhoo	!!
02:14	muhoo	the idea of consing someting onto the head of a vector and having it return a list is an intersting surprise
02:15	phil_	cons returns a sequence
02:16	phil_	conj is overloaded for all types
02:16	hiredman	cons is not the traditional cons
02:16	hiredman	it doesn't create pairs
02:16	hiredman	,(cons 1 2)
02:16	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Long>
02:16	hiredman	it just adds to the head of a seq
02:16	phil_	so conj on a vector appends to the end, conj on a list = cons
02:17	hiredman	nope
02:17	hiredman	cons is for seqs, not lists
02:17	hiredman	,(list? (cons 1 '()))
02:17	clojurebot	false
02:17	hiredman	,(seq? (cons 1 '()))
02:17	clojurebot	true
02:18	phil_	yea, i said so
02:19	phil_	but more specifically, conj's return value type is always that of its argument, while cons always returns a seq
02:19	phil_	correct?
02:21	amalloy	phil_: in general that's true, but it's stricter than is technically correct: conj can return whatever type it likes so long as it's an IPersistentCollection and it "makes sense"
02:23	brehaut	i kinda wish i had never taken on xml-rpc implementation as a project
02:23	phil_	amalloy: because every collection type defines its own conj, right? but is there a concrete example in the core data structures of conj returning an alternative type?
02:24	hiredman	array maps turn into hash maps if they have more than N keys
02:24	schleyfox	but that happens when they go over N=16 regardless of operation, I thought
02:24	phil_	ah good to know
02:24	amalloy	&(let [m (into {} (map vec (partition 2 (range 16))))] [(class m), (class (conj m [18 19] [20 21]))])
02:24	lazybot	⇒ [clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap]
02:25	amalloy	schleyfox: relevance?
02:26	schleyfox	I suppose none
02:26	schleyfox	just curious about any conj specific variance
02:26	amalloy	also not actually true, although it could be if anyone had bothered to implement it
02:27	amalloy	&(let [m (apply array-map (range 100))] ((juxt class count) (dissoc m 0)))
02:27	lazybot	⇒ [clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap 49]
02:28	schleyfox	curious and curiouser
02:29	amalloy	but the difference between hash and array maps is one that you may as well pretend doesn't exist, in which case there are no "interesting" examples of conj changing type of the entity
02:30	schleyfox	which is probably a good thing
02:33	muhoo	brehaut: why? is xmlrpc painful in clojure?
02:34	brehaut	muhoo: the spec is crap
02:35	brehaut	if anything clojure makes it extremely clean inspite of the problems
02:36	muhoo	i have to guess that the spec for xmlrpc has to be better than the one for json
02:36	brehaut	hells no
02:36	replaca	I used xmlrpc from clojure and it wasm't too bad
02:37	brehaut	replaca: via necessary-evil or a java lib?
02:37	replaca	the worse prob is that I was talking to bugzilla which is written in perl so if something looks like a number it makes it a number
02:37	replaca	java lib
02:37	emezeske	how could the xmlrpc spec possibly be better than the json spec? ^_^
02:38	muhoo	replaca: the apache sax?
02:38	brehaut	replaca: right. i've written a clojure / ring implementation of it
02:38	replaca	apache xmlrpc client
02:38	replaca	brehaut: to serve it?
02:39	brehaut	replaca: both
02:39	replaca	ahh, cool
02:39	brehaut	it uses clj-http for the client
02:40	brehaut	replaca: https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil
02:40	replaca	yeah, this was old code
02:40	schleyfox	brehaut: good name
02:40	replaca	and it's been woking for over a year now, so I'm sure I'll leave it alone :)
02:41	replaca	especially since we'll probably ditch bugzilla anyhow this year
02:42	brehaut	replaca: that seems to be the best idea with xmlrpc
02:44	replaca	the whole low-level part of it (that pulls bugzilla data into clojure data structures set up the way I want them) is maybe 70-100 lines
02:45	replaca	maybe 2% of the code in the program
02:47	brehaut	for comparison the entire necessary evil is 475 lines
02:48	brehaut	(client and server)
02:48	replaca	yeah, that sounds about right
02:49	replaca	a bunch of my code is weird date conversion stuff and the like
02:49	brehaut	hah yes
02:49	brehaut	clj-time made life easier
02:49	brehaut	once i worked out how to encode the craziness
02:49	unlink	What's the closest Clojure idiom for OOP? I'm looking to do something like (defn make-my-object [] (let [closed-over-field-a (ref []) other-closed-over-field (ref {})] (fn [param1 param2] method-body...)))
02:49	replaca	and bugzilla has other problems with time
02:50	replaca	and then making sure that things that should be strings really are strings (and not numbers)
02:50	brehaut	unlink: err. the first major idiom is to stop writing OO like code
02:50	phil_	whats a shorter way for (swap! x (fn [_] y))?
02:50	replaca	that's a perl prob, though, but xmlprc lets it happen
02:50	schleyfox	unlink: the closest (in the most literal sense) would be deftype
02:50	unlink	brehaut: Fair enough, but this time I really want it.
02:51	brehaut	phil_: (swap! x (constantly y)) but its not actually shorter
02:51	phil_	brehaut: but clearer, thx
02:53	brehaut	unlink: what is it you are trying to do. we cant make any suggestions with just what youve said
02:56	unlink	brehaut: I'm building an analysis platform which hosts generic, independent analysis workers which subscribe to and process real-time data feeds. That is the abstraction I'm structuring now -- enabling those workers to run, possibly with multiple instantiations, without sharing their private state
02:57	schleyfox	unlink: looked at storm
02:57	schleyfox	?
02:59	brehaut	schleyfox: maybe jumping the gun a bit there
02:59	schleyfox	perhaps
02:59	brehaut	unlink: ok. so you dont actually want data hiding as much as polymorphism right?
03:01	unlink	brehaut: No, I want both. Clojure functions and maps with (static) vars would be great except I need to run multiple instances of the same worker at once, and their state must be independent
03:02	brehaut	unlink: independant state is different to encapsulation
03:02	brehaut	what im asking is, are you doing the closure to hide the data or just to hold a ref?
03:02	unlink	true, I suppose that clojure's modules provide good enough encapsulation.
03:03	brehaut	whatever the case, id probably unify all the refs you have into a single map in a ref or atom
03:03	brehaut	so that the data for the whole thing can be treated atomically
03:04	brehaut	you can use the *-in family of fns to manage it trivially anyway
03:04	brehaut	(update-in, get-in)
03:06	brehaut	eg, (let [a (ref {}) b (ref {})] …) becomes (let [state (ref {:a {} :b {}))] …)
03:06	unlink	right
03:06	unlink	I'm more concerned with the closure itself, though.
03:06	brehaut	well its fine
03:07	brehaut	i cant really suggest any more without knowing more about how you are structuring the rest of the program
03:08	AimHere	I see a line with lots of colons and empty curly braces and I immediately think of a fork bomb
03:35	Blkt	good day everyone
04:29	noidi	how can I println to stderr?
04:30	noidi	is there something handier than (binding [out err] (println ...))?
04:41	CmdrDats	noidi: (defmacro out-to-err [& body] `(binding [out *err] ~@body)) ?
04:42	CmdrDats	haven't tested it, just wrote from the top of my head :P but then you should be able to just (out-to-err (println …))
04:42	AWizzArd	You could also (.write ^java.io.PrintWriter err "Hallo Welt")
04:43	AWizzArd	(defn prerrntln [& args] (.write ^PrintWriter err (apply str args))) or something like that.
04:57	tsdh	AWizzArd: prerrntln, what a beautiful name. I'll call my first-born that way. ;-)
05:01	clgv	tsdh: try Atomfried for your first born ;)
05:03	tsdh	:-)
05:17	noidi	CmdrDats, AWizzArd: thanks. I only need stderr in one place so I'll just go with the binding, if there's no prerrntln (!) in clojure.core.
05:17	clojurebot	excusez-moi
05:21	AWizzArd	noidi: that is perfectly fine, it just is less efficient than calling “.write”.
06:16	Dotan_	hey guys, a long shot here - is there a guide showing "scheme to clojure" or anything close that someone familiar with scheme can use to boost up learning?
06:30	Kototama	hi, why does all my clojure files get compiled when building a WAR file with lein ring uberwar?
06:31	Kototama	it creates a class per function, isn't that expensive?
07:02	tsdh	Kototama: Why do you think so?
07:16	Arafangion	Kototama: Some languages create an object per function.
07:22	raek	Kototama: clojure will create one class per (fn ...) expresion you eval. if you ahead of time compile your code, these classes will be stored in .class files
07:23	raek	hrm, that was not totally accurate
07:25	raek	before code is executed it's always compiled to jvm byte code
07:25	raek	and each (fn ...) expression is compiled as its own class
07:26	raek	when the code is evaluated (by running the compiled code) no new classes are created
08:03	samaaron	quick java question: when code creates a new object and assigns it to a private variable in the scope of a class, but not in any methods - how does that differ from not initialising the variable, and assigning to it in a constructor?
08:04	TimMc	Kototama: You can prevent the AOT generation of classes in your uberwar, but it will just happen again at JIT compilation, on the fly.
08:06	raek	samaaron: it is the same as assigning it from the constructor.
08:06	dnolen	samaaron: well, the latter has concurrency implications
08:07	dnolen	main reason why deftype/record don't support constructors
08:07	raek	samaaron: on the bytecode level, all initializations happen in a constructor (<init>) or in the static initializer (<clinit>) for static fields
08:09	raek	I assumed you were asking about what happens when you initialize a java field outside a constructor (syntactically)
08:10	raek	class and instance fields are different from local variables on the byte code level
08:14	samaaron	raek: yes - the code i'm reading is initialising an instance field outside of a constructor
08:15	samaaron	so, you're saying that on compilation, these external initilisations are moved inside of the constructor?
08:22	Kototama	tsdh: i just though loading so many classes would not be efficient for the JVM. Maybe i'm wrong
08:24	Kototama	TimMc: how can I prevent aot when building a WAR?
08:24	tsdh	Kototama: I don't think there's much difference between loading thousands of classes with only a handful of members and loading a handful of classes with thousands of members each.
08:33	TimMc	Kototama: I wrote something to do this fo uberjars, it could be expanded or imitated: https://github.com/timmc/lein-jit
08:34	TimMc	Kototama: You can also modify your project to do this without any plugin help.
08:40	fbru02	hey guys i asked this at night, but couldn't figure it out I have sth like this : {"5" {"6" {"7" {"3" {:words {"close" 1}}}}}} I want to get to the {:words ...} hash what's the best way to do it ?
08:40	compj	get-in ?
08:41	fbru02	compj: fair enough but i don't know the sequence (i.e. 5 6 7 3)
08:45	raek	samaaron: yes
08:45	Kototama	TimMc: you mean modifying the project.clj ?
08:46	samaaron	raek: thanks. I just managed to find this post which appears to explain this stuff pretty well: http://www.artima.com/designtechniques/initializationP.html
08:47	TimMc	Kototama: Replace your core.clj with a loader.clj that calls it using clojure.main.
08:47	TimMc	Kototama: look inside src/lein-jit or whatever.
08:48	raek	Kototama: the alternatives are loading those classes from files (aot) or compiling these classes from clojure source (in memory) and then load them (non-aot)
08:48	TimMc	fbru02: You don't know the sequence statically, you mean?
08:49	raek	this non-aot mode is sometimes called "jit compilation" which is a bit confusing IMHO, since there is already jit compilation on another level on the jvm
08:49	TimMc	We should call it OTF, On-The-Fly
08:50	raek	maybe the lein-jit plugin should be called lein-dont-force-aot
08:50	TimMc	yeah
08:50	raek	or the lein jit behavior could become the default
08:51	fbru02	TimMc: yeah
08:53	TimMc	fbru02: ##(let [path ["5" "6" "7" "3"] ds {"5" {"6" {"7" {"3" {:words {"close" 1}}}}}}] (get-in ds path))
08:53	lazybot	⇒ {:words {"close" 1}}
08:53	TimMc	get-in isn't a macro, you just pass it the path
08:53	fbru02	TimMc: will try that :)
08:53	fbru02	thanks
09:15	smokecfh	i'd like to browse through source code of a big clojure project -- any recommendations for that?
09:19	joegallo	any particular kind of project or library?
09:19	joegallo	i mean, if you're familiar with http & java servlets, then maybe ring would be a good place to start for instance. but if that's greek to you, then maybe it wouldn't.
09:21	compj	an idea how I can add quaqua to a leiningen project and only add it to the jar when on a mac?
09:22	smokecfh	joegallo: anything big is fine, i'm especially interested in how well clojure scales when working in a team
09:23	joegallo	sadly, the biggest clojure project i know is closed source, but i can assure it works great on our team ;)
09:24	gtrak`	smokecfh: probably similarly to lisp, I imagine it depends on the team
09:36	kmicu	smokecfh: can you explain what do you mean by "programming language scales by team size"?
09:39	phil_	how can i insert (not replace) an element at a specific location in a vector?
09:39	phil_	conj always add to the end, assoc replaces the element at the given index
09:40	smokecfh	kmicu: in my experience (with java and common lisp mostly), the more restraining a language is, the easier it is to work in a team. i would like to see that this premise is incorrect.
09:40	phil_	adds*
09:43	dnolen	smokecfh: Clojure much more restrained then Java or Common Lisp
09:45	kmicu	smokecfh: Personally I don't see any correlation, but if you want browse some code, then 'closurescript one' source code is relatively big and has many deps.
09:45	compj	phil_: don't think there is something in the std lib, try a combination of split-at and concat
09:46	phil_	compj: really? why is that operation deemed so rare that its not even in the std lib?
09:46	dnolen	for the ClojureScripters, anything thoughts on this change? https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/compare/115-internal-set-fields
09:47	dnolen	allows set! on deftype/record fields declared ^:mutable
09:47	compj	maybe vectors aren't made for such use cases
09:48	phil_	dnolen: are you storing the mutables in the metadata?
09:48	phil_	compj: :/ the whole point of a vector is fast access to indexed elements imo
09:49	phil_	but ok ill think of something
09:49	dnolen	phil_: there is no reified metadata in CLJS, this is just at the level of the compiler
09:49	dnolen	phil_: set! actually always let's you set fields, but this seems kind of nice both as documentation and a bit of sugar
09:50	clgv	phil_: but inserting in a persistent vector implies concatenation of two vectors which is currently not possible with sharing structure of both vectors in clojure
09:50	compj	phil_: yes, access to a indexed element, but that has nothing to do with inserting an element I think
09:51	clgv	phil_: concatenation with the current vector implementation need O(n) with n being the element count of the second vector
09:51	joegallo	my impression is that if you want to do something that's not very efficient, then clojure doesn't go out of its way to make that easy
09:52	joegallo	but that's just an idle thought
09:52	phil_	clgv: ah i see
09:52	dnolen	joegallo: phil_: phil bagwell presented a data strucuture at the Clojure/conj that can work with persistent vectors that allows efficient insertion, but no ones taken up the enhancement
09:53	phil_	clgv: will have to look again at the low level implementation to see exactly why but ill take your word for it :) well then this explains things
09:53	joegallo	dnolen: yes, good point
09:54	phil_	dnolen: what does set! translate into on the js side? just a regular "a.x = y;"?
09:54	dnolen	phil_: yes
09:54	dnolen	phil_: the compiler does some enforcement tho, not allowed to set locals
09:55	phil_	can you tell me where exactly in the code this translation takes place? i was looking at the cljs compiler recently in order to understand how assoc works on defrecords and was able to only imply what is happening by looking at the generated js code
09:56	dnolen	phil_: compiler doesn't do anything for assoc, that's all in CLJS
10:00	phil_	dnolen: well this happens in emit-defrecord in clj/cljs/core.clj, isnt that part of the compiler?
10:03	dnolen	phil_: yes defrecord spits out default implementations for a variety of protocols
10:05	phil_	dnolen: and what you did with set! works on all types?
10:05	dnolen	phil_: any deftype and defrecord yes
10:07	phil_	so you modified the compiler to support (or allow set!) but defrecord/type are just macros on the cljs side that expand and use the underlying mechanisms provided by the compiler?
10:07	phil_	(sorry for the dumb questions)
10:09	dnolen	phil_: yes. set! is allowed in Clojure if you declare mutable fields. This doesn't currently work in CLJS and this brings things more in line.
10:11	phil_	dnolen: cool, when is this going into master?
10:13	dnolen	phil_: just making sure no one is totally offended by it, probably later today.
10:15	phil_	dnolen: this is perfect, was contemplating on dropping to js for some heavy object manipulation, this will hopefully allow me to stay fully in cljs
10:16	dnolen	phil_: note that you can always (set! (.-property foo) ...), it's just unidiomatic.
10:18	phil_	dnolen: ok, will have to dive into things a bit more
10:20	dnolen	phil_: I've been thinking about the heavy object manipulation problem in CLJS as well. I want to experiment with the notion of transients in CLJS.
10:22	phil_	dnolen: yes, this would certainly simplify things... right now, if you want to do animations with timers or something it wont be very fast (judging by the generated js code), especially on mobile devices
10:22	phil_	i made a simple assoc test in a 3-way three of height 5-6 and it took almost 2secs for 1000 asoocs
10:23	phil_	(well, assoc-ins)
10:23	dnolen	phil_: true tho animations in JS is quickly becoming an anti-pattern especially on mobile devices that support CSS Transitions
10:23	phil_	(with simple compilation)
10:24	phil_	dnolen: yep, css3 is the way to go but if you want older browser support then you have to drop to timers
10:25	phil_	and unfortunately right now ie8 user base is big enough :/
10:25	lynaghk	dnolen, speaking of animation do you have any idea why doseq is so slow in cljs?
10:25	dnolen	lynaghk: allocation overhead
10:25	lynaghk	I remember chris granger throwing together a gist with some examples. I've found that it's something like 200 times slower than JS
10:26	dnolen	lynaghk: seqs just don't rock nearly as hard in JS as they do on the JVM
10:26	lynaghk	Do you have any nice tricks to get around that?
10:26	dnolen	lynaghk: for high perf JS code I think you'll want to write the critical bits with loop recur, dotimes, and mutable arrays/objects
10:26	dnolen	same as Clojure really.
10:27	lynaghk	okay, I'll look into that
10:27	lynaghk	I was under the impression that doseq is just some sugar on something like loop recur
10:27	lynaghk	though that's just because I daydream a lot.
10:27	vimja	I'm trying to use a defrecord in another namespace; I've use'd the relevant namespace (test.my-record) and imported the class (test.my-record.Foo) but I can't figure out how to access the record. Any suggestions?
10:28	dnolen	lynaghk: I'm porting the Processing flocking animation from Clojure to CLJS, a benchmark for this stuff.
10:28	dnolen	a good benchmark I mean
10:29	phil_	dnolen: is the code public? would like to take a look at high perf cljs code
10:29	dnolen	phil_: it will be, got some work to do yet.
10:29	phil_	thx
10:30	lynaghk	dnolen: yeah, that sounds great. I'd love to take a look at that to optimize my cljs visualization library
10:30	phil_	lynaghk: is your code public? :)
10:31	lynaghk	dnolen: also, if you want to use Cassowary there is a chromium guy who is also doing a JavaScript port focused on speed
10:31	lynaghk	dnolen: https://github.com/slightlyoff/cassowary-js-refactor
10:31	dnolen	cool!
10:32	lynaghk	yeah, apparently at the same time as I released mine. December was the dig-out-old-simplex-solvers month
10:32	lynaghk	phil_: it's not yet, but it will be released by March (in time for my Clojure/West talk)
10:33	phil_	lynaghk: allright, thx
10:33	lynaghk	phil_: it's basically a rewrite of D3 in ClojureScript that is more declarative and takes advantage of Clojure's semantics to do neat things. For instance, if you pass it data inside of an atom, it will update the DOM whenever the atom changes.
10:33	dnolen	lynaghk: slick!
10:34	lynaghk	Also, not tied to the DOM, so you can run it on the server. Or teh iPadz.
10:34	phil_	lynaghk: sounds cool, would love to take a look when its public
10:35	lynaghk	yeah, speaking of it I should probably get to work. Clients need their charts & graphs = )
10:36	phil_	haha, dito :D
10:37	pandeiro	lynaghk: that is very cool re: using atom watchers to update DOM... one of Clojure's very webapp-friendly features IMO
10:39	lynaghk	pandeiro: yeah, it's one of those things that's, "oh, I could've made this in JS with an object with getters & setters and callbacks" but you just never got around to it
10:39	lynaghk	A lot of ClojureScript kind of feels like that, and it really adds up to a nicer experience.
10:39	lynaghk	That there are all these neat things laying around for you to use already
10:40	phil_	is there a more idiomatic way of doing this: https://gist.github.com/1670753 i.e. a zipper changing global state whenever it is updated
10:41	phil_	like using core.zip or something
10:45	phil_	im basically trying to have an immutable global tree with the addition that every node can update its children (and thus the global tree) without having to know where exactly it is located in the tree
11:25	blcooley	Is anyone successfully using SLIME apropos with clojure-jack-in?
11:25	jebberjeb	#away
11:25	jebberjeb	uh, sorry
11:26	blcooley	I can use the other SLIME documentation commands (C-c C-d d) but apropos gives me an assert error on descriptor
11:34	compj	blcooley: apropos works here
11:35	blcooley	compj:ok, thanks. probably just something in my setup I guess.
11:35	compj	do you have clojure swank 1.4.0 snapshot?
11:36	compj	i think there were some commits recently
11:37	compj	here this might be the difference https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/commit/8637ccfec5fbfb85bf418f9be54465edb86699e5
11:38	blcooley	compj: aha, that's probably it. Thank you very much. Updating now.
11:38	compj	no problem :)
11:45	blcooley	compj: That did the trick. Thanks again.
11:46	compj	let's thank tavisrudd for the fix
11:46	blcooley	Indeed!
11:51	tavis	blcooley: it was just fixed yesterday
11:51	compj	has anyone else the buffer name slime-repl nil instead of slime-repl clojure in emacs?
11:51	stuartsierra	compj: yes
11:52	tavis	yep, also just fixed yesterday: https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/pull/62
11:52	tavis	the fix is in there waiting to be pulled
11:52	stuartsierra	cool, thanks tavis
11:53	compj	I dived into the slime-repl nil problem for a while and I think I have a solution
11:53	tavis	another bug fix introduced it so hopefully I haven't reintroduced it
11:53	jonasen	Anyone been able to use goog.dom.query with ClojureScript? It's included in the closure zip file that the bootstrap script downloads.. But I don't know how to require it
11:53	blcooley	tavis: Thanks! Really helpful!
11:53	tavis	it's jack-in calling (slime-output-buffer) before the connection is open
11:54	jonasen	It's in the third_party folder
11:54	compj	https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/blob/master/src/swank/payload/slime.el#L2058
11:54	phil	jonasen: look at the samples, i thinnk they use that
11:54	compj	I changed this handle to be synchron and it worked
11:55	compj	although the comment says you shouldn't
11:56	jonasen	phil: I've only seen goog.dom used in the samples and not goog.dom.query. I'll have to take another look
11:57	tavis	compj: btw, were you having the nil issue prior to last summer? If so, it's not caused by what I thought.
11:57	compj	mh can't say, using it since september
11:59	tavis	well, fingers crossed. Good to know there's another way around it if my fix doesn't solve it for everyone.
11:59	compj	the implementation name seems to be set too late. the buffer gets created before the result from the connection-info request are there
11:59	tavis	exactly
11:59	tavis	clojure-jack-in was doing something too early
12:48	tavis	does clojure.contrib.profile have a new 1.3 home?
13:00	phil	are there any vids available from the last clojure/conj?
13:05	TimMc	tavis: Is it not listed on the contrib migration page?
13:06	TimMc	~clojure.contrib
13:06	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:06	TimMc	clojurebot: Where did contrib go?
13:06	clojurebot	well... it's a long story: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
13:07	TimMc	tavis: Oh, looks like it's listed, but has no home in 1.3.
13:09	tavis	do you know of any good simple alternatives that would work well from a repl?
13:10	tavis	aside from `time`
13:30	jsabeaudry	Is there a way to have some kind of redirect in a clojure web application that will be transparent to the client?
13:32	jsabeaudry	Let me take a step back
13:34	jsabeaudry	I am hosting a web application on limited hardware. One of my http handlers is returning a binary stream but clojure is too slow to do the work. What I thought is that I could run a C server that does the work and my clojure webapp would just be a kind of proxy for that particular handler
13:34	jsabeaudry	Am I dreaming or is that feasible?
13:34	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: what's the source of the stream?
13:35	Twey	jsabeaudry: Is this binary stream static?
13:35	jsabeaudry	gtrak``, A FPGA but some processing is required on the stream
13:35	gtrak``	if it's a file, you can mmap it
13:35	gtrak``	fun
13:36	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: so, how do you get the data for the stream?
13:36	TimMc	jsabeaudry: Your web server itself can run a reverse proxy that delegates as necessary.
13:36	muhoo	depends on how the device driver is implemented, i suppose
13:37	jsabeaudry	gtrak``, Most probably a non-seekable character device
13:38	jsabeaudry	TimMc, What would be a good lib for reverse proxying in clojure?
13:38	gtrak``	ah, so if you can't mmap, you'll have to buffer, but I guess you already know that? is that avoidable in C?
13:39	muhoo	there's a java trick to turn a char device into a filestream
13:39	muhoo	probably would work in clojure too
13:39	gtrak``	if it works in java, it works in clojure
13:40	jsabeaudry	muhoo, Yes but I also need to do some processing on it
13:40	gtrak``	what kind of processing?
13:40	muhoo	i did this recently in java
13:40	jsabeaudry	muhoo, That is what causes the problem, because clojure/jvm is too slow
13:40	muhoo	i used a FileInputStream
13:40	muhoo	read from that, then sent it out a FileOutputStream
13:40	jsabeaudry	gtrak``, signal processing,
13:41	gtrak``	right, i figured as much
13:41	srid	non-clojure question, but I figured people here may have some idea: is redis appropriate for storing a stream of real-time events (eg: from log files on many servers; think heroku pulse)? or is there something else that is more appropriate?
13:41	muhoo	i had to write a jni ttyserial.c to do it
13:41	muhoo	(this was on android platform)
13:41	muhoo	it was a PITA
13:42	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: well, if you're doing some algorithmic stuff, sounds like you'll want to optimize for your processor, you could also look into JNI or JNA for a C to java bridge
13:42	muhoo	+1 jni
13:42	muhoo	ah
13:42	clojurebot	Huh?
13:43	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: there are ways to share data to C without copying
13:43	tavis	jsabeaudry: are you doing any post processing on the clojure side?
13:43	jsabeaudry	tavis, I don't plan too
13:43	gtrak``	without knowing much about your design, imo, I'd keep everything I can in java, like web stuff
13:43	gtrak``	by java I mean clojure
13:44	tavis	do you have another webserver sitting in front of your jvm?
13:44	jsabeaudry	I guess I'll go with TimMc's suggesting of running a reverse proxy on the server
13:44	muhoo	easier
13:45	jsabeaudry	tavis, No
13:46	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: interesting to me b/c in a past life I studied DSP/compArch :-)
13:46	muhoo	so, "slow" in the sense of latency?
13:47	muhoo	in that case, http redirect, let the browser talk directly to the stream, less stuff in the way.
13:47	jsabeaudry	muhoo, No, too slow in terms of CPU usage
13:49	gtrak``	jsabeaudry: in general, unless you're writing vector code with custom simd stuff, java can be faster
13:50	jsabeaudry	gtrak``, Basically we are doing an instrument, the UI is web-based, runs on an arm7a platform the size of a credit card, some of the DSP is done on an FPGA and some on the arm. Lot's of fun stuff if you ask me.
13:50	gtrak``	or trying to take advantage of mem alignment, cache stuff, etc..
13:50	gtrak``	ah, arm
13:50	gtrak``	yea, I think on arm java the tradeoffs are different
13:51	gtrak``	actually never looked into it deeply, what about the jazelle stuff?
13:52	jsabeaudry	gtrak``, I checked quickly but it seems the architecture we are running on is not supporting it
13:53	jsabeaudry	In all cases, it's not a big deal to have some stuff running in C
13:53	jsabeaudry	All the drivers are written in C anyways
13:53	gtrak``	yea, so you want avoid writing web code in C
13:53	jsabeaudry	Exactly
13:54	jsabeaudry	Just that one handler will be in C and its just an application/octet-stream so no web stuff really
13:54	TimMc	So you just need to proxy data from C out across a binary HTTP response?
13:55	gtrak``	you have choices, if JNI works, use that, or you can use some kind of IPC, pipes, streams, sockets, etc... not sure how hard http would be in C
13:55	jsabeaudry	TimMc, Yes pretty much
13:56	TimMc	then it's probably easier to proxy from Clojure than accept a web request from C
13:56	muhoo	net socket is probably a LOT easier than jni
13:57	gtrak``	proxying a http request sounds wasteful to me, sockets would be trimmer
13:57	muhoo	if the c thing speaks tcp, probably easier to shovel bytes to cloujre via a net socket, then from clojure out to the browser, than to go dicking around with jni and opening char devices
13:59	emezeske	Is it possible to access unix domain sockets from Java? Those are always nice for efficient local proxies (and very simple from C).
13:59	muhoo	ah
13:59	muhoo	http://nakkaya.com/2010/06/15/clojure-io-cookbook/
13:59	tavis	do you have access to unix domain sockets? If so you could do the initial request handling on the clj side and then sendmsg to pass the client socket off to c
13:59	muhoo	so, there's the socket way, and the file way, both in clojure :-)
14:00	gtrak``	awesome that you get to write clojure code on an arm, btw :-)
14:01	gtrak``	there's this: http://code.google.com/p/junixsocket/
14:02	gtrak``	apparently to use unix sockets you need native code
14:02	gtrak``	tcp sockets I guess you don't
14:02	muhoo	gtrak``: jsabeaudry: http://nakkaya.com/2010/06/15/clojure-io-cookbook/
14:03	gtrak``	muhoo: yea, I saw that, unix sockets are different
14:07	muhoo	ooh neat, there's some clojure sugar around the ugly java file io http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html
14:07	lazybot	Nooooo, that's so out of date! Please see instead http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html and try to stop linking to rich's repo.
14:07	gtrak``	$botsnack
14:07	lazybot	gtrak``: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
14:09	muhoo	hm, google disagrees with the bot
14:11	TimMc	Google can suck my keyboard.
14:11	TimMc	I'm so done with them. </rant>
14:12	TimMc	muhoo: What really needs to happen is that site should be replaced by redirects. I think replaca is the one who can do that.
14:14	gtrak``	it's been talked about a lot
14:14	gtrak``	every page that someone can link to needs to be replaced by a redirect?
14:15	TimMc	right
14:15	TimMc	It can be done with a META refresh or maybe some JS.
14:20	raek	refresh and js solutions do not preserve the "referer" header
14:20	raek	in case you want that data in google analytics, for example
14:22	TimMc	Well, you could still get origin information off the original repo.
14:23	TimMc	I'm not sure I can bring myself to care about "page stickiness ranked by origin" or other such abominations of analytics.
14:25	amalloy	jsabeaudry: is there a reason you can't just use nginx or some similar webserver to bypass the clojure app entirely in cases where you'd have it proxy to C?
14:27	Raynes	TimMc: I found that putting nude images of amalloy up on refheap took traffic away from the main content, thus not helping the cause at all.
14:27	TimMc	Raynes: I thought that was an iguana. :-P
14:28	amalloy	hahaha
14:28	TimMc	amalloy: That would require responding to HTTP in C.
14:30	jsabeaudry	amalloy, probably not, it is one of the possibility but I wonder if that might have some impact with regards to authentification
14:31	muhoo	is this thing linux on this arm?
14:31	muhoo	just run lighthttpd or any of the many arm/busybox http daemons, i.e. for openwrt
14:32	muhoo	iirc there is even an httpserver applet built into busybox
14:34	bhenry	&(doc if-let)
14:34	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
14:39	jsabeaudry	muhoo, And run clojure as fastcgi?
14:41	tavis	jsabeaudry: the fd descriptor passing over AF_UNIX sockets approach I mentioned won't work in java: http://lifecs.likai.org/2010/05/passing-file-descriptor-over-unix.html
14:45	replaca	TimMc: so it turns out that github pages (which is what we use for the docs) doesn't support redirects
14:45	brehaut	replaca: you could use an html meta equiv
14:45	brehaut	(not ideal though)
14:45	replaca	brehaut: I looked at that a while back and decided it would be better to just edit that pages
14:46	replaca	haven't gotten to it yet though :(
14:46	brehaut	replaca: i'd probably do both :(
14:46	replaca	yeah, I might
14:46	brehaut	search engines at least will respect the header
14:46	replaca	that would be a bonus
14:48	replaca	what I've really been waiting for is for github to support redirects, but I need to bother them more and maybe buy them some beer :)
15:02	the-kenny	What's the best way to stay updated on ClojureScript-Development? Like breaking changes etc.
15:03	stuartsierra	clojure-dev
15:03	TimMc	^ the mailing list
15:04	the-kenny	Hm, okay
15:04	the-kenny	Thanks :)
15:05	stuartsierra	also just watch Git and read the commits
15:07	Raynes	$ git log
15:15	amalloy	Raynes: i think your shell is in another buffer
15:15	TimMc	Sorry, Mario.
15:16	Raynes	amalloy: I was responding to the-kenny, but yes, it is definitely elsewhere.
15:16	the-kenny	:D
15:45	sritchie	do you guys know how to add other repositories to leiningen's list when searching for plugins?
15:45	sritchie	technomancy: this might be for you
15:46	Raynes	sritchie: Edit your hosts file. ;P
15:46	joegallo	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj#L106
15:46	joegallo	i think
15:46	sritchie	joegallo: this is for plugins, so it works outside of projects
15:47	sritchie	Raynes: is that in ~/.m2?
15:47	joegallo	oh, my bad
15:47	joegallo	probably some magic init.clj then, but i dunno
15:47	sritchie	Raynes: I don't know where to look for the file that sets up central and clojars
15:47	Raynes	sritchie: It was a bad joke. I was talking about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hosts_(file)
15:48	sritchie	nice, I'll just redirect clojars over and call it a day
15:48	Raynes	Heh
15:48	Raynes	But that is a good question.
15:49	Raynes	The plugin system is just a bizarre way to avoid a global project, it seems.
15:49	Raynes	But what do I know?
15:52	technomancy	sritchie: that's something we'll have a better answer for in lein2
15:52	sritchie	this is for an internal twitter lein plugin
15:52	sritchie	so for now i should just have people install it manually?
15:52	rlb	technomancy: btw, happy to see you're working on lein for debian.
15:53	technomancy	rlb: that's mostly bablien
15:53	sritchie	technomancy: I'll have folks git clone and lein install
15:53	technomancy	sritchie: user-level repositories are basically build-poison in most cases
15:53	rlb	technomancy: ok, still happy ;>
15:53	technomancy	#1 cause of works-on-my-machine
15:54	sritchie	I agree
15:54	sritchie	what do you think I should do here?
15:54	technomancy	but this is a special case
15:54	sritchie	for distributing a private plugin
15:54	sritchie	y
15:54	sritchie	eah
15:54	technomancy	I need to head off; can you start a mailing list thread?
15:54	samaaron	what's the simplest approach to compiling a nested set of dirs with .java files in?
15:54	TimMc	javac
15:55	samaaron	TimMc: can i just pass a root dir to javac?
15:55	TimMc	* poker face*
15:55	Raynes	TimMc: You can use Leiningen.
15:55	Raynes	But you're not samaaron.
15:55	Raynes	And I need to get more sleep.
15:55	samaaron	Raynes: i moved from javac to lein
15:55	samaaron	but lein javac just created me an empty classes dir
15:56	Raynes	samaaron: Could you tell me about your project setup?
15:56	samaaron	my problem is that i don't know what's going on under the hood here
15:56	Raynes	I probably do. So start talking.
15:56	samaaron	Raynes: well, i have a dir with other dirs in
15:56	samaaron	and in some of the other dirs are java files
15:56	Raynes	src/
15:56	Raynes	?
15:56	samaaron	yup
15:56	samaaron	i'm assuming it's standard java layout
15:56	samaaron	with a dir per package
15:57	Raynes	So, there is no Clojure stuff at all?
15:57	samaaron	not yet ;-)
15:57	Raynes	In your project.clj, set :java-source-path to "src"
15:57	samaaron	ah, i'd set :java-source to "src"
15:57	Raynes	If you end up mixing clj files and Java files in the same source path, you'll need to use the latest 1.x branch of Leiningen because I fixed some issues with that there.
15:58	samaaron	Raynes: ah cool, thanks for the heads up
15:59	samaaron	is there a simple way of adding an extra lib dir with jar deps?
16:00	samaaron	not all the deps to this project are in maven...
16:07	jeremyheiler	samaaron: could you install the jars into a local maven repo? or do you simply want them distributed with the project?
16:08	samaaron	jeremyheiler: eventually they'll go in a local maven repo - but just to bootstrap things it might be easier to bundle the jars with the src
16:08	technomancy	samaaron: if it's not in a repository it's not a real dependency
16:08	samaaron	technomancy: i don't quite understand the sentiment of that statemnt
16:09	samaaron	how can you have a non-real dependency?
16:09	technomancy	that would be a "works by accident" situation, I guess
16:09	samaaron	currently the jars are stored in the project's repo
16:09	samaaron	which isn't ideal
16:10	samaaron	but not all of those jars are available in maven - I assume they're bespoke libs
16:11	samaaron	so i thought it a good start to separate the maven libs from the bespoke libs until we get a local maven repo set up
16:11	technomancy	samaaron: have you tried the private-s3-wagon?
16:11	samaaron	technomancy: no - i haven't heard of it
16:11	technomancy	it's pretty easy to set up a private repo now: https://github.com/technomancy/s3-wagon-private
16:11	Raynes	technomancy -- makin' hard stuff easy and easy stuff avoidable.
16:12	technomancy	(the plugin-ness of it will be more streamlined in 1.7.0)
16:12	samaaron	sure, but this isn't a personal project
16:12	technomancy	samaaron: meaning you currently don't have a corporate aws account?
16:13	samaaron	meaning i'm sure i'm not allowed to stick these jars on non-uni servers
16:13	samaaron	and i also know that they're working on deploying a local maven repo
16:13	samaaron	so i was just thinking of something that works for now
16:14	samaaron	i.e. have a non-maven-lib with non maven jars
16:14	samaaron	which would also be in the classpath
16:14	technomancy	it can be done, but it's strongly discouraged
16:14	samaaron	until those libs are available in a local maven repo
16:14	technomancy	you can specify file:// URLs in :repositories
16:14	technomancy	as a temporary measure
16:15	samaaron	technomancy: what's the motivation for strongly discouraging the practice?
16:15	technomancy	samaaron: git is absolutely wretched at storing binary files
16:15	samaaron	yeah, that's very true
16:15	technomancy	it's just the wrong place for artifacts
16:15	weavejester	technomancy: Is the lein-survey yours?
16:15	technomancy	but if you're working around bureaucratic policies then I have some sympathy =)
16:15	technomancy	weavejester: aye; hope to have the results summarized within a week
16:16	samaaron	technomancy: well, it's only a short-term solution - I'll be rebuilding it all in Clojure anyway
16:16	technomancy	samaaron: just be aware you may want to rewrite that stuff out of your history down the line if you continue to use that same git repo
16:16	weavejester	technomancy: Your shell command for finding most-used subcommands has a bug
16:16	weavejester	technomancy: It strips out commands in the 100s and 10s
16:17	technomancy	samaaron: I saw a project using jars-in-git that had just switched to git 3 months ago and had already bloated the repo size up to 300MB
16:17	samaaron	technomancy: understood
16:17	technomancy	weavejester: yeah, it's fairly flawed. if you have multiple shells open you can't really trust your history.
16:17	technomancy	weavejester: plus it doesn't work with zsh
16:17	technomancy	taking it with a huge grain of salt
16:17	weavejester	technomancy: It worked okay with my zsh
16:18	weavejester	technomancy: Well, except for removing the first 4 lines, but that was egrep
16:18	technomancy	heh
16:20	TimMc	I still don't understand how history interacts with multiple shells.
16:20	samaaron	is there a difference between Sun JDK and Open JDK libs? javac is crying about not being able to find javax.servlet.http.HttpServletRequest
16:20	TimMc	I think sometimes they get reused, too...
16:21	jeremyheiler	samaaron: HttpServlerRequest is in java ee
16:21	amalloy	TimMc: it's just a total mess. i don't trust it at all
16:21	jeremyheiler	so, not part of the std dist
16:21	Somelauw	Why even have the difference between sun and open jdk? It's just confusing anyway.
16:21	samaaron	jeremyheiler: I thought ee was just some marketing hype
16:21	geoffeg_c	amolly: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8992997/initializing-elements-of-a-map-conditionally-in-clojure you put the let around the defn? does that make the fn scoped inside the let? :)
16:21	samaaron	is it an extension to the JDK libs?
16:21	TimMc	Somelauw: Sun (well, Oracle) is being a bastard about licensing right now. I'm glad to have the OpenJDK.
16:21	jeremyheiler	samaaron: it's a separate lib, yes.
16:22	TimMc	Also, I think at v1.7, OpenJDK is the reference impl
16:22	jeremyheiler	well, it's mutltipe separate libs...
16:22	samaaron	jeremyheiler: separate lib as in apt-get java-ee or a maven dep?
16:22	jeremyheiler	samaaron: you want servlet-api.jar
16:22	jeremyheiler	maven dep
16:22	samaaron	nice
16:22	amalloy	i don't think i understand either the question there, geoffeg_c
16:22	TimMc	geoffeg_c: No, it just means the defn seems some locals no one else does.
16:22	TimMc	*sees
16:23	samaaron	technomancy: thank you so much for lein search :-)
16:23	technomancy	samaaron: yeah once I wrote that I wondered why I had taken so long =)
16:23	geoffeg_c	hmm, nice.. i guess :)
16:24	samaaron	hmm, so the question now is which version of the servlet-api to go for...
16:24	jeremyheiler	what servlet container are you deploying to?
16:24	samaaron	jeremyheiler: is tomcat a servlet container?
16:25	TimMc	geoffeg_c: Do you need to know users' gender? At least allow an :unspecified.
16:25	jeremyheiler	usually you mark "servlet-api" as a compile time dep, and thenuse the servlet-api.jar bundled with tomcat (in your case) be used at runtime.
16:26	samaaron	jeremyheiler: sounds swanky, but i'm not sure what you mean by marking as a compile time dep
16:26	cemerick	jeremyheiler: you mean "provided"
16:26	jeremyheiler	cemerick: yes, my bad
16:26	samaaron	perhaps i'm doing totally the wrong thing, but i'm currently attempting to compile my java code so tomcat can run it
16:26	samaaron	but i'm really shooting in the pitch black darkness with all this
16:27	jeremyheiler	samaaron: you're on the right track. The problem is that you need servlet-api.jar to compile, but your servlet container (this case tomcat) provides one for you, so you don't need to distrubute your war with the servlet-api.
16:27	cemerick	samaaron: If you're using ring, you don't need to worry about it; it already depends on servlet-api transitively.
16:27	samaaron	cemerick: i will be using ring in the rewrite
16:27	samaaron	but right now i just need to get this old java fecker working and fix some bugs
16:28	samaaron	jeremyheiler: so do i need to compile with the same servlet-api that ships with tomcat?
16:29	mattmitchell	what's the best way to turn a collection into a hash-map, where the key is the index of the item in the collection?
16:29	jeremyheiler	samaaron: the same version, es.
16:29	jeremyheiler	yes*
16:29	samaaron	also, i see no evidence of war on the server
16:29	samaaron	it just seems that the compiled libs are put in a tomcat-friendly dir structure where tomcat knows where to look
16:30	the-kenny	mattmitchell: (into {} (map-indexed identity seq)) or something like that
16:30	amalloy	mattmitchell: map-indexed vector?
16:30	samaaron	WAR.. HUH! What is it good for?
16:30	jeremyheiler	if you put a war file into the "webapps" directory, then tomcat will auto deploy it aka, unpackage it.
16:30	amalloy	&(into {} (map-indexed vector '[a b c d e]))
16:30	lazybot	⇒ {0 a, 1 b, 2 c, 3 d, 4 e}
16:30	the-kenny	&(into {} (map-indexed identity '[a b c d e]))
16:30	lazybot	clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$identity
16:30	mattmitchell	ahh map-indexed! thanks
16:30	samaaron	jeremyheiler: sounds a bit pointless - unless i want to email the whole thing or somethign
16:30	the-kenny	Gnah :/
16:30	technomancy	samaaron: the only thing harder than resisting making jokes about .war files is resisting making jokes about .ear files.
16:31	jeremyheiler	samaaron: it makes remote deployment easier.
16:32	m0smith	hi all
16:32	mfex	&(zipmap (range) [:a :b :c :d]) mattmitchell
16:32	lazybot	⇒ {3 :d, 2 :c, 1 :b, 0 :a}
16:32	m0smith	has anyone done any work in using Clojure within a JSP? maybe a taglib?
16:32	the-kenny	Ah, that's nice too
16:32	mattmitchell	mfex oh that's nice!
16:33	TimMc	m0smith: I was trying that out at work, but Enlive has terrible documentation.
16:33	Somelauw	,(into {} (keep-indexed vector [:a :b :c :d])) ; Wait that is actually longer
16:33	clojurebot	{0 :a, 1 :b, 2 :c, 3 :d}
16:34	TimMc	I'll probably give it another shot in a month or so.
16:35	Raynes	I've tried to read Enlive docs/tutorials, but I mostly just get a headache and forget about it.
16:35	Somelauw	and has already been poste
16:35	Raynes	Not sure how I feel about a templating tool where it is appropriate to spend half a tutorial talking about scraping a website with it.
16:36	m0smith	Thanks TimMC
16:37	m0smith	I am really more interested in having HTML with tags. or clojure scriptlets or some such
16:37	m0smith	Not too interested in re-inventing that wheel
16:37	brehaut	Raynes: its definately worth pushing through the headache
16:37	Raynes	brehaut: Well, I expect someone will write something about it that isn't insane at some point. I'll definitely start paying attention then.
16:38	brehaut	Raynes: noted
16:38	technomancy	brehaut: yes, but that forces everyone else who might help in the future to go through the same headache =)
16:39	brehaut	technomancy: sadly true
16:39	technomancy	every time I start a new project I intend to try enlive, spend a few minutes looking at docs, and go back to hiccup.
16:39	brehaut	fwiw cemerick et al's book has a brief but clear introduction to enlive
16:39	technomancy	I'm strongly biased towards self-evident code.
16:39	cemerick	I've never quite understood the grumbling about enlive. If you know CSS…
16:40	cemerick	brehaut: much expanded, actually.
16:40	brehaut	cemerick: oh, fantastic!
16:40	cemerick	The whole rough cuts thing never worked out so well. What's up there is probably 6 months old.
16:40	Raynes	My book will have a much better cover than his.
16:40	Raynes	Which makes it a better book by far.
16:40	technomancy	cemerick: it's not the selectors; it's the transformation macros
16:40	cemerick	…and less than half the content.
16:40	brehaut	cemerick: how much XSLT had you done before enlive?
16:41	brehaut	cemerick: oh wow, that is very stale
16:41	cemerick	technomancy: it's (nearly) all function-based at this point.
16:41	cemerick	brehaut: too, too much
16:41	brehaut	oh yeah, it used to be heavily macro voodoo right?
16:42	cemerick	Yeah
16:42	technomancy	cemerick: in that case it's the out-of-date examples and docs I guess
16:42	brehaut	cemerick: i think of enlive as xslt done right rather than php done better
16:42	cemerick	it was the migration from that to where it is today that prompted cgrand's macro talk at the first conj
16:43	brehaut	technomancy: i think the biggest impedance to getting the hang of enlive at the moment is starting off with deftemplate
16:44	cemerick	brehaut: what, as in, where to put the template files?
16:44	brehaut	cemerick: partly, but also that its structured doc -> seq of strings
16:44	brehaut	rather than structured -> structred
16:44	brehaut	sorry about the typos
16:45	cemerick	well, that's the last step, not the first
16:45	brehaut	right, but if you go in thinking 'i want to template some stuff' its easy to get off on the wrong foot with it and make your life much harder than it needs to be
16:46	TimMc	cemerick: There's still a carpload (not correcting that typo) of macros, and no docs on them indicating how they should be used.
16:46	TimMc	It's all macro-source-reading.
16:48	brehaut	theres only 14 macros?
16:48	brehaut	to several hundred functions
16:49	brehaut	13 if you dont count sniptest
16:49	cemerick	TimMc: I don't think that's true on either count.
16:49	TimMc	cemerick: It was several months ago, last time I tried it.
16:50	TimMc	"does foo" is not sufficient doc -- "takes a fn and produces a transformer which does foo" is much better
16:50	brehaut	TimMc: have you seen brian maricks tutorial in the wiki?
16:51	brehaut	https://github.com/cgrand/enlive/wiki/Table-and-Layout-Tutorial%2C-Part-1%3A-The-Goal
16:51	TimMc	Yeah, I couldn't get through it.
16:53	brehaut	i presume that goes doubly for dnolans tutorial then?
16:53	brehaut	s/ans/ens/
16:53	pandeiro	i found dnolen's easier to 'get into'... but then i didn't use enlive on anything afterwards and have forgotten everything already
16:54	TimMc	Which is that?
16:54	brehaut	https://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/
16:56	TimMc	That was better, once I skipped past the scraping.
17:05	ordnungswidrig	is there a way to know if read encountered an eof in the middle of a form?
17:06	ordnungswidrig	I mean "[1 2 3]" vs. "[1 2"
17:06	brehaut	,(read-string "(inc 1")
17:06	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:06	Somelauw	That is a very generic error to catch
17:07	brehaut	has a fairly boring consistent string though
17:07	Raynes	You can catch it and check the message.
17:07	Raynes	If the message isn't right, rethrow.
17:07	Somelauw	,(read-string "1/0")
17:07	pjstadig	or just don't catch it and see what magic happens
17:07	clojurebot	#<ArithmeticException java.lang.ArithmeticException: Divide by zero>
17:07	hiredman	if you get the cause it's a lispreaderexception
17:07	Raynes	There ya go.
17:08	Somelauw	&(instanceMember (ArithmeticException. "") RuntimeException)
17:08	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: instanceMember in this context
17:08	ordnungswidrig	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a 1"))] (read r) (read r))
17:08	clojurebot	1
17:09	ordnungswidrig	(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a ["))] (read r) (read r))
17:09	TimMc	ordnungswidrig: You might check to see how the REPL handles this.
17:09	Somelauw	&(instance? (ArithmeticException. "") RuntimeException)
17:09	lazybot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.ArithmeticException cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
17:09	TimMc	since it knows when a form is complete.
17:09	ordnungswidrig	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a ["))] (read r) (read r))
17:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:09	ordnungswidrig	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a"))] (read r) (read r))
17:09	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:09	Somelauw	&(instance? RuntimeException (ArithmeticException. "")) ; Sorry, I am not that good at writing working code
17:09	lazybot	⇒ true
17:10	m0smith	,( + 2 3 4)
17:10	clojurebot	9
17:10	Somelauw	But I made my point
17:10	m0smith	&(+ 1 2 3)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ 6
17:10	Licenser	ordnungswidrig use the reader eof parameter
17:10	Licenser	&(doc read)
17:10	lazybot	⇒ "([] [stream] [stream eof-error? eof-value] [stream eof-error? eof-value recursive?]); Reads the next object from stream, which must be an instance of java.io.PushbackReader or some derivee. stream defaults to the current value of in ."
17:10	TimMc	m0smith: You can /msg lazybot for that too,
17:11	Licenser	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a"))] (read r false :eof))
17:11	clojurebot	:a
17:11	Licenser	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a ["))] (read r false :eof))
17:11	clojurebot	:a
17:11	Licenser	,(let [r (new java.io.PushbackReader (new java.io.StringReader ":a ["))] (read r false :eof) (read r false :eof) )
17:11	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
17:11	Licenser	hrm
17:11	amalloy	Licenser: that's for "no forms left", not "incomplete form"
17:11	Licenser	I think the pushback reader was allowing unfinished forms, hence the pushback part
17:12	amalloy	no way
17:12	amalloy	the pushbackreader is just so it can parse, for example, "abc(1)" - it can't know the symbol is done until it hits (, but it has to put the ( back in the stream
17:13	Licenser	hrm
17:14	ordnungswidrig	i think i will to have to add some meta information to my files like a checksum or "number of expected forms"
17:15	ordnungswidrig	or I can peek using the pushbackreader if more is to come
17:16	TimMc	Trying to figure it out from here: https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/1.3.x/src/clj/clojure/main.clj
17:19	TimMc	OK, I think the secret is that the REPL just calls read, and since there is no EOF on stdin, it just blocks until a full form comes in.
17:19	TimMc	If you give it a file or string reader, it knows right away once it reaches the end of the input.
17:19	clj_newb	Is there a better way to concatenate two strings than #(apply str (concat %1 %2)) ?
17:20	cemerick	(str a b)
17:20	clj_newb	,(str "thanks," " " "cemerick"))
17:20	clojurebot	"thanks, cemerick"
17:20	TimMc	&(.concat "abc" "def") ;-)
17:20	lazybot	⇒ "abcdef"
17:21	clj_newb	this is embrassing; I even had the function in my example
17:21	Raynes	That's satanic.
17:21	clj_newb	why is using the .concat part of Java.String wrong?
17:22	clj_newb	while we're taling abot strings; is there a better way to take the first 10000 chars of a string rather than (apply str (take 10000 ...)) ?
17:22	TimMc	&(let [ss ["abc" "def"]] (String/format (apply str (repeat (count ss) "%s")) (to-array ss)))
17:22	lazybot	⇒ "abcdef"
17:23	cemerick	clj_newb: you'd need to hint the call properly to avoid reflection; it can't be used with a HOF; it can only be used to concat two strings
17:23	TimMc	clj_newb: .substring, although it won't allow GC of the rest of the string while you hold it.
17:23	brehaut	,(subs 10 "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv")
17:23	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Long cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
17:23	brehaut	,(subs "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv" 10)
17:23	clojurebot	"klmnopqrstuv"
17:23	TimMc	(or is that split?)
17:23	brehaut	,(subs "abcdefghijklmnopqrstuv" 0 10)
17:23	clojurebot	"abcdefghij"
17:23	clj_newb	TimMc: that could be a problem; I am trimming a log this way
17:23	clj_newb	i.e. only keeping the most recent 10000 chars of it
17:24	clj_newb	if it doesn't allow the GCing of the rest of the string, I will be one unhappy clojure programmer
17:24	brehaut	TimMc: substring does the thing you mean
17:24	clj_newb	doe substring create a new string?
17:24	clj_newb	does it keep a refernece to the old string?
17:26	haderach	so I just tried installing emacs clojure-mode, but M-X slime connects me to sbcl. How do I point it at the right Lisp?.3
17:26	Somelauw	I solved it by downloading clojure-jack-in, but there might be other ways.
17:27	technomancy	haderach: either M-x clojure-jack-in or M-x slime-connect; the swank-clojure readme has a pretty good (I like to think at least) overview
17:28	brehaut	clj_newb: the docs for substring dont actually mention it. its probably an implementation detail, though i do remember readingthat sun/oracle java does just return a new string with a pointer to the same chunk of memory
17:29	technomancy	it doesn't create a new string; subs and subvec are both potential memory leaks if you don't keep that in mind
17:30	TimMc	I used a WeakReference to check; whatever I'm using for .substring allows GC.
17:30	TimMc	(let [s (apply str (range 10000))] (def w (WeakReference. s)) (def ss (.substring s 10 20)))
17:31	TimMc	Then I ran (count (take 1e6 (range))) and checked (class (.get w)), it had become nil.
17:31	TimMc	And that's (import 'java.lang.ref.WeakReference) for those following along at home.
17:37	TimMc	...and split, also.
17:37	pyr	swank-clojure is still the way to go with emacs, right ?
17:37	the-kenny	pyr: yup.
17:38	gf3	awkward
17:39	Somelauw	why did they all go?
17:39	TimMc	OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM 1.6.0_20
17:39	hiredman	there goes the irccloud
17:39	TimMc	Netsplit?
17:39	gf3	TimMc: nah, IRCCloud just sucks, they go down often
17:40	TimMc	OK. I have joins/nicks/parts/quits turned off, so I didn't see what happened.
17:40	the-kenny	Yup, I like the idea, but there's too much downtime.
17:40	amalloy	TimMc: that surprises me - it's fairly clear from the source (of openjdk6, anyway) that substring shares the char[]
17:40	the-kenny	And the site gets awfully sluggish after some hours
17:40	trgv	hi :)
17:40	TimMc	amalloy: Weird.
17:40	amalloy	oh, i see. you were checking that the String is no longer referred to, and it isn't
17:41	amalloy	but the larger char[] it contained is still referred to
17:41	TimMc	Ah!
17:41	TimMc	Sneaky.
17:41	TimMc	Welp, there goes that method.
17:41	TimMc	amalloy: And split has the same problem? (While you're in there.)
17:42	trgv	i'm trying to code this algorithm http://weblog.jamisbuck.org/2010/12/29/maze-generation-eller-s-algorithm with no luck, someone could give a hint please ? =D
17:42	amalloy	TimMc: it looks that way
17:43	amalloy	String.split delegates to Pattern.split, which calls String.subSequence, which seems to do the same sharing as substring
17:44	TimMc	All this structure sharing on splitting would be nicer if the GC could be told what portions of an array were still in use.
17:44	TimMc	Like, "give me a subarray and feel free to trim the rest as necessary".
17:53	mr_rm	i've built a maven uberjar with all my dependencies, including clojure and some <code>.clj files (not compiled). does anyone know the way to call a function inside one of my clj files?
17:54	mr_rm	i tried: java -cp uber.jar clojure.main -i /my/file.clj -e "(func)"
17:55	technomancy	mr_rm: you can try clojure.main -m my.ns
17:55	technomancy	but it'll only work on the -main function
17:56	mr_rm	technomancy: ok, i'll put the entry point in "(defn -main []...)" and see what happens :) thanks
17:56	technomancy	also, -m requires clojure 1.3
17:56	mr_rm	technomancy: oh... bummer. this is 1.2.1
17:57	di-csuehs	what does a graph look like in clojure? What do you pass as 'g' to the clojure-contrib.graph funcitons?
17:57	technomancy	well I did submit the patch before 1.2 was released. =\
17:58	mr_rm	technomancy: my jar is self-executable with a java main() wrapper right now but i was just wondering if i could call individual functions from the command line
17:58	technomancy	mr_rm: you can always use ns-resolve on the args you get.
18:00	mr_rm	technomancy: right but i'm not intending the wrapper to be a general caller. i want to distribute it always calling the main entry point. i was just wondering if there is some syntax for clojure.main that would let me call any arbitrary function inside an uncompiled clj file inside the jar
18:00	technomancy	yeah, it's a shame that didn't make it into 1.2 =\
18:01	mr_rm	technomancy: ok. i appreciate your response
18:03	technomancy	no problem
18:04	mabes	what is the correct way of using lein-multi? I'm seeing various ways: https://github.com/technomancy/doric/blob/5d996a777535f060581b350b710971187b108800/project.clj https://github.com/danlarkin/clojure-json/blob/6d7f28e58a2cd81a0e26a6c966d75b6310b638ad/project.clj
18:06	clj_newb	you know what else is fricking awesome? I can have keywords not only of the form :foo but alfo of the form :foo-bar .... it's just so nice
18:06	clj_newb	[end rant]
18:06	clj_newb	sometimes I use clojure; and I just don't understand why other langauges have all these weird limiitations
18:07	technomancy	mabes: they're both correct; what do you mean?
18:08	mabes	technomancy: I guess I'm unclear what the best practice is.. from your project above it seems that you are listing 1.3 as a dep.. so if a 1.2 person includes it they will have to exclude that dep.. where as with the json example no dependency is listed but both are tested..
18:09	technomancy	oh, sure. I'd say it's best to list your minimum required clojure version as a :dependency and list newer ones under :multi-deps
18:10	technomancy	or start using lein2 where that functionality is built-in with profiles!
18:10	mabes	oh really... that sounds nice..
18:10	technomancy	it's still a bit early
18:10	mabes	I'm just patching clj-time so I probably won't do that in this case but for my own projects I can start trying it out
18:10	technomancy	but if you're feeling adventurous...
18:11	technomancy	really really early, I guess I would say.
18:11	mabes	heh
18:11	technomancy	more like if you've got some time and you don't mind helping out or aborting your effort. =)
18:13	mabes	i.e. you like shaving yaks ;)
18:13	amalloy	technomancy: perhaps your "preferred" clojure version as the actual dep, rather than minimum
18:14	technomancy	amalloy: you mean if you like having newer features available for convenience during dev time?
18:14	technomancy	dunno; seems like it would be too easy to commit code that uses them by accident
18:15	amalloy	no, just like as a description of intent: "clojail was written for 1.3, but as you can see from lein-multi it also supports 1.2.1"
18:16	amalloy	which is very different, in terms of how confidently users will use a given version, from the converse
18:16	technomancy	I'm still reeling from the betrayal of maven version ranges; haven't settled on The Right Thing yet.
18:17	Raynes	clojail actually didn't work for pre 1.3 until Alan bitched me into making it 1.2 compatible.
18:17	Raynes	:p
18:17	technomancy	seems like using the lowest by default keeps you honest
18:19	amalloy	i don't buy that at all: there are breaking changes in each direction. if you have 1.2 as your "canonical" version you can accidentally check in something that depends on dynamic vars, for example
18:20	technomancy	yeah, but 1.3 is supposedly an exception to the rule
18:20	technomancy	in theory all consecutive 1.x releases will be additive
18:21	technomancy	I guess it makes sense if your two versions are 1.2 and 1.3 though
19:04	semperos	way to see documentation for functions at cljs repl?
19:11	Raynes	What is 'clojure.repl/doc', Alex.
19:12	amalloy	does cljs have docstrings? i thought it didn't even have vars
19:14	dnolen	amalloy: the data is there, somebody just needs to make it work
19:14	clj_newb	I need help on the right term to search for. I'm on OSX. I'm creating a GUI in Clojure via Awt/Swing (it's a JFrame). I want the Frame to "jump to the front of the screen", i.e. be on top of all other windows. What is ther right term I'm loking for? (focus is not it)
19:16	Raynes	Oh, cljs.
19:16	Raynes	clj and cljs are too similar.
19:23	sandbox`	hello. I'm trying to test a record that implements a protocol, and i would like to stub out one of the protocol's functions. is there a way to do this? does this make any sense?
19:26	sandbox`	i've tried with-redefs but it doesn't seem to be doing anything in this context
19:44	benares_98	what's the simplest way to install clojure on mac osx?
19:45	technomancy	clojurebot: how do I install clojure?
19:45	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
19:45	technomancy	>=\
19:46	technomancy	benares_98: clojure isn't an application that you interact with as an end user; it's just a library that you include with the software you write.
19:46	amalloy	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5983427/how-to-install-clojure-on-ubuntu-10-04-from-github-repo-with-no-clojure-jar is about ubuntu but just as relevant on macos
19:47	technomancy	you mean macosecks?
19:47	amalloy	i like to leave you an opening to say that; you do so enjoy it
19:47	technomancy	I should let you know that it's appreciated.
19:49	benares_98	thanks, I'm looking to install several packages for my wife so she can join me for an clojure/overtone meetup tomorrow.
20:22	adam_	is anyone here programming clojure with monads?
20:22	brehaut	adam_: yes
20:23	brehaut	~anyone
20:23	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
20:23	tavis	adam_: google for Konrad Hinsen or Roman Gonzalez for a start
20:23	brehaut	also Jim Duey
20:25	tavis	yeah, Jim wrote an awesome tutorial series
20:26	brehaut	adam_: alternatively, just ask your question
20:26	tavis	note the contrib module Jim talks about has been replaced by clojure/algo.monads
20:39	brehaut	technomancy: theres another one?
20:39	brehaut	(tutorial that is)
20:39	technomancy	I think it was Konrad's
20:39	brehaut	ah right
20:40	brehaut	didnt think we needed any more
20:41	technomancy	if there's one thing I learned from Haskell users it's that there's always room for one more blog post about monads.
20:41	brehaut	lol
20:42	tavis	not just them: http://www.meetup.com/vancouver-scala/events/41968702/ tomorrow night
20:42	tavis	er, Thurs
20:42	brehaut	tomrrow night isnt thursday?
20:43	brehaut	you sir are living in the past
20:43	tavis	damn true
20:44	tavis	I once flew home from NZ on xmas just after dinner and arrived home for second xmas dinner a day later
20:44	brehaut	excellent
20:44	tavis	but second had lots of snow
20:47	brehaut	is that a good thing?
20:47	phil_	is there a way to make the compiler print a warning whenever a defrecord doesnt implement all of its protocol functions?
20:48	tavis	brehaut: not when your car is buried at the airport - it was
20:49	brehaut	tavis: oh
20:49	dnolen	phil_: nope
20:49	mattmitchell	could someone explain the reason why one of these macros works and the other doesn't? https://gist.github.com/1674116
20:49	dnolen	phil_: seems like something handy for the analyzer to do though
20:50	mattmitchell	I'm confused as to why the & arg works, but I can't pass a list in for the same result?
20:50	hiredman	mattmitchell: it's not the same
20:50	hiredman	you have a quoted list and some symbols
20:50	phil_	dnolen: is that generally regarded as useless or is it just not high on the priority list?
20:50	hiredman	(a quoted list of symbols)
20:51	mattmitchell	hiredman: i feel like i've been down this road before, please continue :)
20:51	hiredman	mattmitchell: (x (one two)) will fail in the exact same way
20:51	phil_	dnolen: because i think that a "record is abstract" or w/e warning would eliminate a lot of bugs
20:51	hiredman	mattmitchell: well go write a lisp interpreter with quoting and macros so you know what you're doing next time
20:52	mattmitchell	hiredman: that's a great idea
20:52	hiredman	have fun
20:52	amalloy	wait what, why wouldn't (x (one two)) work in the second case?
20:52	amalloy	it should expand to (let [one 1, two 2] (str one two)), which looks valid to me
20:53	hiredman	amalloy: but look at the call to str
20:53	hiredman	actually, that might fail very oddly
20:53	hiredman	(but it will)
20:53	hiredman	(str quote (one two))
20:53	hiredman	,quote
20:53	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: quote in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
20:53	amalloy	hiredman: i took out the quote
20:54	amalloy	as did you, i think. (x (one two)) works fine with second definition
20:54	amalloy	agreed (x '(one two)) is rubbish, but nobody seems to be arguing about that
20:54	hiredman	oh, right the let
20:54	mattmitchell	ahh ok
20:55	dnolen	phil_: I don't think it's a large source of bugs. But no it doesn't look like it's a high priority. Yet another gap that the community can easily fill.
20:56	hiredman	phil_: if your protocol is large enough to forget functions then maybe your protocol needs to be broken up
20:57	phil_	hiredman: i agree, but still, are there many use cases where it is desirable to have a half-baked defrecords lying around?
20:57	phil_	defrecord*
22:04	thelittlelisper	So what is the most interesting Clojure project you've seen lately and why?
22:04	brehaut	that is such a broad question
22:06	brehaut	avout, core.logic, counter clockwise?
22:06	brehaut	clojurescript?
22:06	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Cons cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentStack>
22:07	thelittlelisper	Cool - why are they interesting?
22:07	brehaut	you have google. the relevant sites are self explainatory
22:08	brehaut	and will do a better job explaining than i will
22:09	thelittlelisper	:) I've seen them - I can see they're new and fresh - I was asking for personal preferences and associated reasoning
22:09	thelittlelisper	Why do you find them interesting?
22:09	brehaut	because they are doing cool stuff
22:20	skelternet	is anyone here familiar with the clojure-contrib.graph package?
22:33	jkkramer	skelternet: somewhat, got a specific question?
22:34	skelternet	I've been googling for usage and trying to understand what form the graphs should be in. I'm looking at the graph.clj source now.
22:35	skelternet	so, the best specific question I have at the moment is, "What is a g(raph) in clojure?"
22:38	jkkramer	skelternet: in general, they could be represented in many ways — a collection of edges, a map of nodes to a set of neighbor nodes, etc. c.c.graph uses a struct of :nodes and :neighbors. see https://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/master/modules/graph/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/graph.clj
22:39	jkkramer	skelternet: you should be aware that use of clojure.contrib is discouraged. unfortunately, there's no go-to replacement for clojure.contrib.graph as far as I'm aware
22:39	jkkramer	skelternet: you could check out https://github.com/jkk/loom but I haven't upgraded it to 1.3 yet. maybe I should do that…
22:41	skelternet	Thank you! I feel less disoriented. I saw the calls to (:neighbors in (get-neighbors but I didn't see anything describing what it was expecting.
22:41	skelternet	I've run across mention of loom.
22:41	jkkramer	yeah, seems to be only documented in code comments
22:42	skelternet	Ha! was that tongue-in-cheek?
22:42	skelternet	if so, sorry I missed the comments
22:43	jkkramer	not intentionally :) they're easy to miss
22:43	skelternet	found directed-graph in a defstruct
22:44	skelternet	yes. I'm still adjusting to the language. subtle in some ways since it eschews the ceremony.
22:45	skelternet	I'll take a closer look at loom
22:45	skelternet	this is all recon. I'm not sure the science project will gain any traction or sponsorship in the day job.
22:48	skelternet	whoa…:neighbors is not a necessarily a collection…it's a function that takes a node
22:53	jkkramer	clojure is cool like that. collections and functions are often interchangeable. collections can implement the function interface
22:55	skelternet	Thank you for loom.
22:55	skelternet	Are you looking at Neo4j or the other graph db's in your other work?
22:56	jkkramer	loom was kind of an excuse for me to play with protocols & records, and get familiar with writing functional algorithms. it's relatively untested in real-world code
22:57	Raynes	There is a graph DB written in Clojure: https://github.com/flatland/jiraph
22:58	jkkramer	written by some upstanding gentlemen
22:59	skelternet	it is a wonderful age to be a software geek. sobs of joy
22:59	skelternet	Tokyo Cabinet, eh.
23:01	jkkramer	loom is upgraded to 1.3 now, FWIW
23:01	Raynes	skelternet: tokyo cabinet is just one layer -- there can be others.
23:02	skelternet	Thanks! Now I feel a little pressure to actually use it. :) I have to ask….what did you have to change?
23:02	Raynes	Jiraph is currently going under a semi-rewrite and amalloy is writing an in-memory STM layer.
23:02	Raynes	undergoing*
23:02	Raynes	Wow, sentences are hard.
23:02	amalloy	nah, the STM layer was done ages ago
23:03	Raynes	It hasn't been that long since STM commits were rolling in.
23:03	Raynes	skelternet: Not sure I understand the question.
23:04	skelternet	I'll look at it on git… the upgrade to clojure 1.3 seemed really quick so I'm wondering if it was so resilient and beautiful code it just worked.
23:04	jkkramer	oh, that was for me
23:05	jkkramer	I just had to change the dependency to 1.3, and then make add a :dynamic metadata thing to a var
23:05	jkkramer	s/make//
23:05	Raynes	Oh.
23:06	Raynes	skelternet: When you're responding to a specific person, it is helpful to prefix your message with that person's nickname. Usually this is no trouble because IRC clients can typically tab-complete IRC nicks.
23:06	Raynes	Like I just did there.
23:07	jkkramer	making code 1.3 compat isn't very hard if you're not using clojure-contrib
23:07	skelternet	all: I know that. I apologize. I was sloppy. Please accept my apologies.
23:07	muhoo	,(quote foo)
23:07	clojurebot	foo
23:08	Raynes	skelternet: It's fine. I just got a little confused. :)
23:09	skelternet	sorry Raynes. I forget you can't see what direction I'm typing in. ;)
23:10	skelternet	I'm still reading about jiraph
23:51	muhoo	what's the & operator do, as in [loc f & args] ?
23:51	skelternet	vargs?
23:51	skelternet	it's the rest of the args
23:51	muhoo	skelternet: thanks
23:51	skelternet	optional, if I recall
23:51	jayunit100	why is it that the 2nd expression in doseq is NOT prefixed with a # ?
23:51	jayunit100	(doseq [[index word] (map vector
23:51	jayunit100	(iterate inc 0)
23:51	jayunit100	["one" "two" "three"])
23:52	jayunit100	i would think that the expression part would be an anonymous function.
23:53	jayunit100	(doseq [i [1 2 3 4]] (print i))
23:53	skelternet	is doseq a special form or a macro?
23:53	jayunit100	(doseq [i [1 2 3 4]] #(print i)) ;;<--- this does not run properly.... because of the #.
23:53	jayunit100	doseq is a macro
23:54	jayunit100	I guess im confused what the purpose of declaring an anoynmous function is ?
23:54	jayunit100	if we can just express the same thing in a Closure.
23:55	amalloy	those words generally mean the same thing, so you'll have to clarify
23:55	jayunit100	well... in clojure - i would think that
23:55	jayunit100	(doseq [i [1 2 3 4]] (print i))
23:55	dnolen	skelternet: a macro
23:55	jayunit100	should have the same result as
23:55	jayunit100	(doseq [i [1 2 3 4]] #(print i))
23:55	jayunit100	but it doesnt
23:56	amalloy	jayunit100: that would be true if (print i) were the same as #(print i), but obviously they're not
23:56	jayunit100	yes - one is a closure, the latter is an anoynmous function
23:56	amalloy	no
23:56	jayunit100	Ahh duh .
23:57	amalloy	the former is an expression causing something to be printed; the latter is an expression which evaluates to a function (closure, if you prefer)
23:57	jayunit100	no they are not because closures are blocks that only exist in scope of the code in which they occur.
23:58	jayunit100	yes @amalloy thats a good explanation
23:59	skelternet	How can I use macroexpand to show what doseq is doing?
23:59	dnolen	,(macroexpand '(doseq [_ 10]))
23:59	clojurebot	(loop* [seq_33 (clojure.core/seq 10) chunk_34 nil count_35 ...] (if (clojure.core/< i_36 count_35) (clojure.core/let [_ (.nth chunk_34 i_36)] (do) (recur seq_33 chunk_34 count_35 (clojure.core/unchecked-inc i_36))) (clojure.core/when-let [seq_33 (clojure.core/seq seq_33)] (if (clojure.core/chunked-seq? seq_33) (clojure.core/let [c__3921__auto__ (clojure.core/chunk-first seq_33)] (recur (clojure.co...