#clojure – 2012-01-23

2012-01-23

00:06	ibdknox	Alright folks, I'm outta here
00:08	johnmn3	peace
00:28	johnmn3	randomly thought the /join #sopa. 358 people in there!
00:29	zellio	o.O
02:28	cemerick	I can't believe I hadn't noticed before now that special forms aren't hintable. :-\|
02:31	muhoo	hmm that seesaw is interesting. would be cool to have a hiccup/enlive style clojure native syntax for java gui stuff
02:58	LauJensen	if I have an fn like (defn x [] (if (= "x" (System/getProperty "user.name")) x y) will the compiler optimize that so that the if is not re-run unless the environment changes or is the user.name var polled on every call?
02:59	johnmn3	I'd guess it stays as the user that started the java process
03:04	jowag	I think it won't optimize your fn.
03:28	amalloy	LauJensen: i would be quite surprised if the compiler optimized that, but you can trivially do it yourself: (let [result (if (= "x" (System/getProperty "user.name")) x y)] (def foo (constantly result)))
03:29	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:42	AWizzArd	amalloy: though I think that Lau wants it to get evaled if the Properties change.
03:43	AWizzArd	Basically (if (and (System/propertiesUpdated) (= "x" (System/getProperty "user.name"))) …), but such a static method doesn't exist.
03:57	LauJensen	amalloy: Right - I was just curious if the compiler would work it out on its own - Would have been sweet
04:22	clj_newb	I can't find anything interesting on google for "clojure real time audio." Does Java's GC basically make this mpossible?
04:23	AWizzArd	clj_newb: did you see http://mad.emotionull.com/ or https://github.com/overtone/overtone ? They might deliver what you are looking for.
04:24	clj_newb	this is awesome
04:32	Kototama	hi, is it possible to use compojure with clojure 1.3?
04:33	Vinzent	yes
04:34	augustl	couchdb-lucene seems to include lucene itself, is that correct?
04:34	augustl	err, wrong channel
04:39	Kototama	how can I use clojure 1.3 with compojure then?
04:39	Kototama	i'm already using it but the default dependency is clojure 1.2
04:42	AWizzArd	Kototama: you could import the Compojure dependency with an exclusion on Clojure, and manually add Clojure 1.3 as a dependency.
04:43	Vinzent	it works without excluding too
04:43	AWizzArd	Kototama: For example, in one project I include the Apache XML-RPC Client as a dependency. Unfortunately it comes with JUnit, which I don't want, so I did: [org.apache.xmlrpc/xmlrpc-client "3.1.3" :exclusions [junit]]
04:49	Kototama	ok thx i'll try that
05:04	Kototama	when alternatives are written as [org.clojure/clojure "[1.2.1],[1.3.0]"], how can I specify which version from Clojure I want?
06:20	tsdh	Why is there no documentation for definterface in the Clojure API docs?
06:54	jaley	does anyone know where clojure.contrib.mock was moved to in 1.3? Can't find the info on the wiki...
07:11	AWizzArd	jaley: sorry, I don’t know that. But one association I have with “mock” is that Midje works in that style very well: https://github.com/marick/Midje
07:12	jaley	AWizzArd: ok cool. I was starting to look at Midje actually, I guess I'll carry on down that path
08:34	mr_rm	is nrepl considered to be the best way to have a remote repl connection in clojure 1.2 and 1.3?
08:35	mr_rm	that is: https://github.com/clojure/tools.nrepl
08:36	krunaldo	mr_rm: uh, normal nailgun repl or slime repl should be enough
08:36	krunaldo	mr_rm: also protecting it with a ssh/ssl/vpn/whatever tunnel is recommended
08:37	mr_rm	sorry, i should have said this is not from emacs. my IDE is eclipse ccw and i'd also like to connect from command line
08:37	mr_rm	krunaldo: but good point about the ssl tunnel - understood on that point
08:38	krunaldo	unsure how to proceed actually.
08:39	krunaldo	mr_rm: Do you need to have the repl running inside eclipse?
08:39	mr_rm	krunaldo: that is not a requirement.
08:40	mr_rm	krunaldo: basically i just want the running clojure program to listen on a port that i can connect to for a repl
08:40	krunaldo	hmm, nrepl seems to be the best one for that
08:48	kral	hi pals
08:59	compj	hi, does someone know why a aliased macro with (def ^#{:macro true) name #'other.ns/mac) produces a warning when called after it were aot compiled?
09:00	AWizzArd	compj: what is the warning?
09:00	compj	warning is: ArityException Wrong number of args (X) passed to <other.ns/mac>
09:01	compj	can be tested with the seesaw project https://github.com/daveray/seesaw/issues/73
09:04	AWizzArd	compj: they suggest to delete the compiled class files. Can you try a “lein clean” first and then retry your example?
09:05	compj	yes that is working but I'm wondering, why can't you aot compile such a (def...)?
09:05	compj	isn't the ^#{:macro true} meta data not intended for this, or is it a bug?
09:09	pandeiro	anyone use domina (clojurescript dom lib used by cljs one)? is there an easy way to iterate over a collection and output list items that I am missing?
09:16	compj	here, mnimal example of the bug (?) http://pastebin.com/n83uWJgu
09:18	AWizzArd	compj: can you try to clean and then aot the code and then try your test?
09:19	compj	the example I posted works outside a project, just put it in a empty dir, compile it and you can see the warning
09:27	kij	Hey, whats the state of the videos from Clojure/Conj11 ?
09:28	bhenry	kij: i saw them listed on confreaks.com but they are not available yet.
09:35	phil_	why doesnt this work?
09:35	phil_	(deftype Bar [a b c d e])
09:35	phil_	(def b (Bar 1 2 3 4 5))
09:35	phil_	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Expecting var, but Bar is mapped to class hs.base.view.Bar, compiling:(REPL:4)>
09:35	raek	phil_: you are missing a dot: (def b (Bar. 1 2 3 4 5))
09:36	phil_	raek: ah, did the syntax change?
09:37	raek	phil_: not since the release of 1.2, at least
09:37	kij	bhenry, Thanks.
09:37	phil_	raek: i see, then im looking at outdated examples :) thx!
09:37	raek	Bar is a jvm class, so you use the constructor interop syntax
09:51	lucian	i have a seq of maps, i'd like to split it into several seq based on one value in the map. is there hof i could use?
09:52	joegallo	group-by, probably
09:52	lucian	joegallo: that's it, thanks
09:52	joegallo	it's not lazy, though (i mean, how could it be?)
09:53	lucian	yeah
09:54	TimMc	joegallo: It could be partially lazy.
09:54	lucian	well, i guess it could be
09:54	TimMc	The first time you iterated all the way through an inner seq, the entire source seq would be realized.
09:55	joegallo	yes
09:55	joegallo	you could do that
09:55	joegallo	quite right
09:55	TimMc	Wait, the result is a map of seqs... no,
09:55	TimMc	but if it is a seq of seqs, yes.
09:55	lucian	it'd work in something like haskell for sure, i think
09:56	lucian	semantically it's not necessarily fully eager
09:59	TimMc	You could write a lazy associative data structure in Clojure. But the first 'get on it for a key that wasn't already known would also cause a full realization.
10:00	phil_	is it possible to pr-str deftypes?
10:00	phil_	in the same way that i can pr-str maps for example?
10:01	phil_	pr-str only returns the java reference, but not the contents
10:03	raek	phil_: not yet, I think
10:04	raek	something like that is in the works (at least for records)
10:04	phil_	ok, do deftypes then offer any advantages to self-made polymorphism?
10:05	phil_	i guess that returning closures for every newly created type may be inefficient :/
10:14	stuartsierra	pr-str works on defrecords in 1.3
10:15	stuartsierra	But not deftype.
10:17	phil_	there are no defrecords in cjs though, correct?
10:29	wiseen	How do I call Java method overload that takes a vararg of byte[] ?
10:29	wiseen	usually to call overload that takes vararg it's (Foo/bar (into-array type [...])
10:30	wiseen	but how do I get byte[] as type ?
10:32	AWizzArd	wiseen: the Class of it is "[B"
10:32	AWizzArd	You can type-hint such objects too: (SomeClass/method ^"[B" my-byte-array)
10:32	AWizzArd	wiseen: (class (byte-array 0))
10:33	wiseen	AWizzArd, so (into-array [B [(byte-array ...) ..])
10:33	wiseen	AWizzArd, so (into-array ^"[B" [(byte-array ...) ..])
10:33	wiseen	?
10:34	AWizzArd	byte-array takes a value-sequence.
10:34	wiseen	it takes varargs of byte-arrays not a byte-array
10:34	AWizzArd	,(doc byte-array)
10:34	clojurebot	"([size-or-seq] [size init-val-or-seq]); Creates an array of bytes"
10:34	AWizzArd	,(long-array [10 20 30])
10:34	clojurebot	#<long[] [J@134afa4>
10:34	wiseen	AWizzArd, yeah I know, but I need an array of byte-arrays
10:34	wiseen	Java function has : wrappedBuffer(byte[]... arrays)
10:35	wiseen	that's one overload
10:35	AWizzArd	Ah okay, then make-array
10:35	AWizzArd	,(make-array Byte/TYPE 10 20) ; a 10x20 array
10:35	clojurebot	#<byte[][] [[B@f6f949>
10:35	AWizzArd	,(class (make-array Byte/TYPE 10 20) ; a 10x20 array)
10:36	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:36	AWizzArd	,(class (make-array Byte/TYPE 10 20) ; a 10x20 array))
10:36	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
10:36	AWizzArd	,(class (make-array Byte/TYPE 10 20)) ; a 10x20 array
10:36	clojurebot	[[B
10:36	Kototama	isn't it more clear that a variable-like-this is global? Why did that get deprecated? It's harder to see the difference between local and global variables now
10:37	AWizzArd	wiseen: note that (make-array Byte 10 20) is the wrapper Byte[][], while (make-array Byte/TYPE 10 20) returns you a native byte[][]
10:37	AWizzArd	Kototama: I would also prefer if one could say: (def ^{:dynamic false} my-var 10)
10:37	wiseen	AWizzArd, so Byte/TYPE is a way to access value type byte
10:37	wiseen	packed
10:38	AWizzArd	Kototama: But this way it is very easy to see which are bindable (and thus “slow”) vars.
10:38	wiseen	*unpacked type
10:38	AWizzArd	wiseen: yes
10:39	TimMc	phil_: There's a multimethod you can overload for printing your type, I forget what it is.
10:40	phil_	TimMc: but no multimethods in cljsc right?
10:40	phil_	but defrecords work, just tested
10:42	pandeiro	phil_: there weren't but the branch of cljs used by clojurescript one has them
10:42	phil_	pandeiro: multimethods or defrecords?
10:42	pandeiro	multimethods
10:43	phil_	and defrecords?
10:43	pandeiro	not sure about that
10:43	phil_	they work, but the docs say they shouldnt
10:44	phil_	is the branch used in cljs one gonna be merged back into the main repo btw?
10:44	pandeiro	phil_: not sure, probably have to ask the crew
10:44	phil_	pandeiro: allright, thx!
10:57	bhenry	can someone point me to a good futures resource? or tell me how to check the status of a future without blocking by deref?
11:01	TimMc	bhenry: realized? I think
11:02	TimMc	,(realized? (future 5))
11:02	clojurebot	false
11:03	jkkramer	,(apropos "future-")
11:03	clojurebot	(future-done? future-call future-cancel future-cancelled?)
11:04	bhenry	future-done? thanks!
11:05	AWizzArd	Hmm, is the difference between realized? and future-done? more of a subtle nature?
11:05	AWizzArd	It seems realized? works for more than just futures.
11:05	jkkramer	yes, it's more general. also, it's 1.3+ only
11:06	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Hi buddy, its been a while, is your DB out yet?
11:09	stuartsierra	There's also a non-blocking version of `deref` now that takes a timeout argument.
11:10	exupero	@joe http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_NFL_Championship_Game
11:10	AWizzArd	LauJensen: in use, but getting more stable.
11:10	exupero	sorry, wrong irc
11:10	LauJensen	Anything on Github or something I can try out?
11:10	AWizzArd	LauJensen: on BitBucket, but in a private repo :)
11:11	LauJensen	Oh okay - You're really drawing out the suspense on this one :)
11:11	LauJensen	In other News, ClojureQL is 1.0.3 and nearly bug free :)
11:12	AWizzArd	LauJensen: you are right, I am very slow on this. And Grats to the new version of CQL.
11:12	LauJensen	Thanks :)
11:12	AWizzArd	gtg, l8rs
11:18	langmartin	I have a namespace in program called platform.util, if I load a file that depends on it (slime + lein), I get the error that the namespace isn't found in the file.
11:19	langmartin	If I open the file and load it, the namespace can be found
11:19	langmartin	if I change the namespace to platform.toolbox, the load works as expected
11:19	langmartin	us there an issue with a namespace called "util"?
11:20	Vinzent	are you sure the file is called "platform/util.clj"? if yes, I don't know
11:20	langmartin	yes, I am sure.
11:21	sritchie	technomancy: is there a way to exclude a file from a jar, but keep it around in the uberjar?
11:35	Dotan_	hi, is there an ubuntu package for clojure for a quick start?
11:37	pjstadig	Dotan_: I think there is, but i'm not sure how recent it is
11:37	pjstadig	may be 1.2.1
11:37	Dotan_	i see, ok, i'll build locally.
11:37	Vinzent	Dotan_, anyway install leiningen first
11:38	jsabeaudry	Dotan_, Closest thing to q quickstart that I know of is certainly leiningen: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
11:38	Dotan_	oh. i suspected installing lein first might be better but dismissed that thought
11:39	jsabeaudry	Dotan_, depending on what you intend to do, tryclj.com might be even faster
11:39	Dotan_	yep thanks, i always like to fiddle locally despite of try* sites :)
11:48	Kototama	is there a release for math.combinatorics (formerly clojure.contrib.combinatorics) ?
11:51	babilen	Kototama: http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails%7Corg.clojure%7Cmath.combinatorics%7C0.0.2%7Cjar comes up
11:56	Kototama	hum okay
11:56	TimMc	Dotan_: In general, Clojure is not reliably available through package managers.
11:56	Kototama	i looked on clojars
11:56	Kototama	thanks
11:57	Dotan_	TimMc, thanks. i went the lein way, very cool.
11:58	benares_98	:TimMc why isn't clojure reliably available through package managers?
12:00	TimMc	benares_98: Lack of maintainers, first of all -- but I think there are deeper problems with that distribution model vis-à-vis Clojure.
12:00	TimMc	(and that was supposed to be an a-with-grave-accent, but my terminal is fucked)
12:01	benares_98	lol thanks for the insight
12:01	benares_98	I was just curious, someone else said not to get clojure through package managers but I didn't ask why at the time.
12:02	TimMc	The reason is the unreliability. :-)
12:03	stuartsierra	There's a mismatch between the Java distribution model (every app has its own classpath of JARs) and most OS package managers.
12:04	babilen	What would need to be done to change that? What is wrong with clojure as currently packaged? Which libraries/applications need to be packaged most urgently?
12:07	dnolen	babilen: communicate to users that they should install lein via their package manager not clojure
12:09	babilen	technomancy: ^^^ Could you push a change to leiningen's README to mention Debian/Ubuntu packages? (Arch has packages as well, but I had the impression that they mostly just rely on lein's autoinstall)
12:09	wjlroe	I seem to have a value of byte[] coming from a sql query - how can I test for that - there's not bytes? method...
12:10	babilen	dnolen: But I am serious -- I am currently working on packaging most of https://github.com/clojure/ + other highly ranked libraries (compojure, ...) and am always open for suggestions.
12:11	babilen	dnolen: My long-term plan is to have everything managed by clojure/core in Debian in the newest version + backports to stable, but this is some work and any comments from the clojure community are welcomed.
12:11	algernon	babilen: midje & marginalia would be lovely to have, too.
12:12	babilen	algernon: Yeah, those are highly ranked on whatever website was mentioned on clj-user recently that provided a ranking based on dependencies.
12:13	stuartsierra	babilen: I don't want to denigrate your efforts, but I would not expect OS packages for Clojure libraries to get much use.
12:13	babilen	algernon: It's a bit hard to choose and I guess that a lot of developers will just rely on installing libraries via leiningen anyway. My dream would be that most of what is now on "Getting Started with ..." has a corresponding package in Debian/Ubuntu.
12:14	stuartsierra	Since the "packages" are just source code, there's little benefit to having them managed by an OS-level tool.
12:14	stuartsierra	Also, Clojure is a young language and the landscape of libraries and tools is likely to change rapidly for the foreseeable futuer.
12:15	babilen	stuartsierra: Which is why for now only leiningen and clojure is packaged and I am debating with myself how to proceed. I guess that the real need for packages arise as soon as users really want to install applications written in Clojure.
12:16	algernon	babilen: nod
12:16	stuartsierra	In the unlikely event that desktop applications are written in Clojure, they would probably be distributed as monolithic JARs containing all their dependencies, as many Java applications are toay.
12:16	stuartsierra	*today
12:17	hiredman	stuartsierra: but debian's policy is to take those monolithic jars and break them up again
12:17	stuartsierra	eh, whatever
12:17	hiredman	much like I think the debian package of clojure has(or had) asm stripped out
12:18	stuartsierra	nice trick since it was namespaced under the "clojure." package
12:18	babilen	yeah, but those monolithic JARs can and shouldn't be distributed by distributions -- I am currently trying to get most of clojure/core and other things into Debian and will merely package dependencies thereafter. I think, for example, that being able to "apt-get install clooj" and similar things would ease the life for people.
12:18	stuartsierra	go for it
12:18	babilen	hiredman: It is stripped out
12:19	hiredman	eyeroll
12:19	babilen	stuartsierra: Oh, I will. I just fear that this might end up in a similar situation as the Debian/Ruby disaster (developers being discouraged to use distribution packages) and would like to avoid that.
12:19	stuartsierra	too late
12:20	babilen	stuartsierra: Why?
12:20	stuartsierra	We already tell developers to use Lein.
12:20	babilen	hiredman: Huh? asm is packaged in Debian and used by clojure -- It is just not part of the Clojure package.
12:22	hiredman	babilen: sure, but why?
12:22	babilen	hiredman: Because there is no need to have the same library 10 times on a system.
12:23	babilen	stuartsierra: Which really makes sense right now. Just like it makes sense to target quite new and unstable libraries at this point. But clojure will (hopefully) settle down a bit eventually. As I said earlier: This will really become important once users want to use user-level applications in clojure.
12:23	hiredman	babilen: sure there is, clojure uses a specific version of asm, other tools may use other versions
12:23	stuartsierra	One dream at a time. 'Later dudes.
12:24	TimMc	It hink the question at the moment is: Does distribution via uberjars lock us in later?
12:25	TimMc	And I'm not sure what the answer is.
12:25	babilen	hiredman: Those versions will have to be packaged independently in versioned packages if they are not compatible.
12:25	TimMc	babilen: Like Java?
12:25	babilen	TimMc: For example
12:26	hiredman	babilen: for what gain?
12:26	TimMc	I could see that.
12:26	hiredman	(over just taking the existing clojure jar with asm included)
12:27	TimMc	babilen: WOuld you have clojure-1.2 or clojure-1.2.1?
12:27	TimMc	Never mind, that's irrelevant.
12:27	TimMc	Clojure 1.2 breaks API, so it is clojure-1.2 v1.2 and v1.2.1
12:28	babilen	hiredman: There are a couple of reasons why it is undesirable. I guess the most important one is that it eases security support as you only need to update a single library and all applications that use that library are "patched" as well. If we would ship the same library in multiple packages all these packages would need to be updated.
12:28	TimMc	outside of that, you can handle it with OR statements.
12:29	babilen	TimMc: Right now we have clojure1.2 and clojure1.3 -- I expect a clojure1.4 to emerge after the release.
12:29	babilen	s/the/its
12:30	hiredman	babilen: but any security update is a new a version which may or may not work ith clojure, while the asm distributed with it is always going to work
12:30	babilen	If there would be a set of stable libraries for 1.3 and 1.4 that are individually maintained you could expect those to be packaged as something like libclojure1.2-foo -- But those are not versioned right now.
12:32	babilen	hiredman: In that case the dependencies have not been declared correctly -- software should clearly state that it works with specific versions. (say 1.5 - 1.6 or so) and security updates to a library shouldn't break backwards compatibility. (e.g. 1.6.1 shouldn't break applications written against 1.6)
12:33	hiredman	babilen: "shouldn't"
12:33	babilen	indeed
12:33	hiredman	babilen: they do all the time
12:34	hiredman	babilen: clojure has no "dependency" on an external package, because the "external" package is not external anymore
12:34	TimMc	hiredman: That takes away the entire point of a security update.
12:34	babilen	hiredman: Sure there are dependencies (you write those down in your project.clj (for example) all the time)
12:34	TimMc	Not that you can read this.
12:35	hiredman	babilen: the whole thing is such a knee-jerk stiff-necked forcing of an antiquated C view of the world
12:35	hiredman	babilen: clojure doesn't have any
12:36	hiredman	(actually clojure doesn't build with lein so there is no project.clj, and even if you have a fork that does build with lein, which I happen to have, it doesn't have any dependencies)
12:36	babilen	hiredman: I am referring to Clojure-the-ecosystem rather than specifically clojure itself.
12:37	hiredman	babilen: if you want apt to work with the ecosystem the best thing to do would just by to make apt front maven
12:38	hiredman	but that will not work well because apt with apt the default is an assumed single version of a package installed at one time, where as maven/the jvm just don't care
12:39	babilen	hiredman: We have things like that to ease packaging maven projects -- Please don't get me wrong here as my sole intent is to make it easier for Debian(-based) users/developers to use and enjoy Clojure. I do, however, strongly believe that a more stable development cycle + support for "old" versions will be a good thing in the long run.
12:40	hiredman	babilen: it is already very easy, you bootstrap yourself out of the apt nonsense and just use maven repos
12:42	hiredman	babilen: the ruby community is seeing issues with the apt/C style global global namespace of libraries and has started using tools which avoid that (rvm, bundler, recommending local installs instead of global, etc)
12:45	babilen	hiredman: Indeed, whereas it works pretty well for Python even though developers still use tools such as pip/virtualenv/... during their development.
13:10	phil_	what is the function to generate an object from a string? im trying (read-string (pr-str object)) but i get an "unreadable form" error message
13:11	joegallo	you might need to play some of the ear-muffed variables that affect printing of objects
13:12	phil_	like atoms?
13:13	joegallo	i'm thinking like http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/print-level
13:13	joegallo	for instance
13:13	joegallo	depending on what you're printing
13:13	phil_	yep (read-str (pr-str (atom 6))) bombs out :/
13:13	joegallo	i don't think you want to print and read atoms
13:13	joegallo	just my opinion
13:13	joegallo	you might want to print and read the value in the atom
13:14	joegallo	but not the atom itself
13:14	phil_	well i was hoping that by reading the atom a new atom will be generated with the same value
13:15	joegallo	i don't think that atoms are designed to have a readabl toString, so that doesn't work
13:15	joegallo	you could probably sneak around it if you really really want to do it that way
13:16	phil_	yea i guess, but it gets complicated... is there a reason why atoms are deemed unfit for "serialization"?
13:17	joegallo	ours not to reason why, ours not to make reply
13:18	Vinzent	phil_, there was discussion about that on the group somewhere... Why don't you save the value of your atom?
13:27	TimMc	I'm not sure what the point is of cloning transactional objects.
13:46	technomancy	has anyone had issues generating incanter charts from jdk7?
13:57	the-kenny	+1
14:12	dnolen	jkkramer: compj: the-kenny: i see no patch in jira ;)
14:13	the-kenny	hmm shouldn't be that hard. Do I still need a contributor agreement?
14:15	technomancy	amalloy_: what's the latest on the data.xml release? still blocked on maven?
14:16	dnolen	the-kenny: yep
14:16	the-kenny	dnolen: Gnah. I should finally bring myself to do that :)
14:22	compj	can someone tell whether this is a bug? see comment: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2GFGY2NW
14:23	TimMc	compj: I believe macro fns take some extra args, maybe &env and &form
14:23	Bronsa	compj: defmacro puts &env and &form as first args
14:23	hiredman	compj: it is not
14:24	Bronsa	TimMc: you were faster :)
14:24	TimMc	I'm on my work computer, which has less lag.
14:24	compj	but it works as exspected when I dont compile
14:24	jkkramer	dnolen: i'll write a patch. think i should bring it up on clojure-dev or just create a jira case?
14:24	compj	but if the module is aot compiled this warning is produced
14:25	dnolen	jkkramer: mention it in on clojure-dev just for record keeping
14:25	jkkramer	k, will do
14:25	dnolen	jkkramer: it always hard to tell how quickly people will move on such tickets since it's minor enhancement - so don't hold your breath
14:25	dnolen	jkkramer: Clojure/core only really works on CLJ on Fridays
14:26	hiredman	dnolen: really, because I am pretty sure relevence is the one with an open source friday policy, and clojure/core claims not to be relevence
14:27	dnolen	hiredman: seeing as Clojure/core is mostly relevance + rhickey, the distinction is a minor one
14:27	hiredman	well, I guess that is not true, the website says "Clojure/core is a specialized technical practice brought to you by Relevance, Inc."
14:28	hiredman	dnolen: right, I just know if you suggest they are the same on the ml you get immediately "corrected"
14:30	compj	it seems the compiler does not set the macro flag for vars defined using (def #^{:macro true})
14:31	hiredman	compj: what version of clojure are you using? #^ has been deprecated for two releases now
14:32	nrichards	Does anyone maintain a list of clojure users groups / meetups? I can't seem to find one
14:32	technomancy	nrichards: there's one on jira
14:32	compj	I just started using clojure, I''m on version 1.3.0 but learned from older tutorials
14:32	jkkramer	dnolen: yeah, i know. i figure i shouldn't complain unless i'm willing to actually write a patch, though :)
14:32	technomancy	which is not renowned for making things easy to find
14:32	nrichards	The Austin Clojure meetup is starting up, and I was hoping to get some inspiration from what other groups are doing
14:33	nrichards	jira? OK. I'll check. thanks
14:33	di-csuehs	Austin Clojure?
14:33	nrichards	yes
14:33	dnolen	nrichards: sweet! I used to live in ATX
14:33	technomancy	nrichards: sorry, confluence
14:34	nrichards	http://www.meetup.com/Austin-Clojure-Meetup/
14:34	hiredman	compj: metadata on the var is the only "macro flag" there is
14:34	hiredman	but you also need to stop using single segment namespaces
14:34	hiredman	~namespace
14:34	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:34	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
14:34	clojurebot	you cut me deep, man.
14:35	compj	the single namespace was just for the demo
14:35	hiredman	~namespaces
14:35	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
14:35	compj	so how do I add the :macro true to a var in 1.3.0?
14:36	hiredman	compj: so what makes you think the compiler is not
14:36	hiredman	compj: so what makes you think the compiler is not seeing it as a macro?
14:36	compj	see the example http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=2GFGY2NW
14:36	hiredman	I see the example, and I don't see anything there that would lead to that conclusion
14:37	compj	i expect no warning when using (mac-alias) since it is marked to be a macro
14:37	compj	and if i do (.setMacro #'var) it works
14:37	compj	so my assumptions was the compiler does somehow drop this information
14:37	compj	while it works when you don't aot compile it
14:37	Raynes	compj: Not that it matters, but refheap.com and gist.github.com (and a couple of other ones) are pastebins that have Clojure-specific highlighting. The first one is even written in Clojure by a couple of really awesome dudes. One whose name starts with an R.
14:38	Bronsa	oh, i recall there was a problem like this for ^:dynamic
14:38	compj	raynes: tanks :) I was looking for a clojure paste service but did not find one
14:38	hiredman	compj: have you looked at what setMacro does?
14:38	TimMc	Raynes: Get on that SEO!
14:39	Raynes	TimMc: Indeed.
14:41	compj	no, I did not look what setMacro does but I think it sets a var so that the 2 args passed to macro funs are handled in a way the user expects it
14:41	hiredman	compj: nope
14:41	Raynes	TimMc: Looks like "clojure pastebin" is covered in pastebin.com. and thus destroys us.
14:41	djh_	Can anyone tell me what the significance is of surrounding var declarations wtih s, e.g. database-connection*?
14:42	di-csuehs	ugh...why does it require a photo
14:42	Raynes	Those usually indicate dynamic vars that will be rebound at some point with ##(doc binding)
14:42	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([bindings & body]); binding => var-symbol init-expr Creates new bindings for the (already-existing) vars, with the supplied initial values, executes the exprs in an implicit do, then re-establishes the bindings that existed before. The new bindings are made i... https://refheap.com/paste/386
14:42	pjstadig	djh_: it generally conveys the fact that your var is meant to be bound dynamically
14:42	pjstadig	though in 1.3 you have to specifically add the dynamic metadata
14:43	Raynes	di-csuehs: Why does what require a photo? :o
14:43	compj	hiredman: but you agree the behaviour is not as expected?
14:43	djh_	pjstadig: thanks, that's all I needed to know :)
14:43	compj	since the compiled and non-compiled version differ?
14:43	hiredman	compj: I dunno, I haven't checked, and since you are new to clojure I think it is more likely you are making a mistake somewhere
14:44	di-csuehs	nrichards Austin Clojure meetup
14:44	nrichards	di-csuehs: the group? I think that's a meetup.com thing.
14:44	nrichards	I didn't setup the group - but I can ask Sam to look at the configuration. I know he wrote the signup questions
14:45	di-csuehs	I found one...glad I had my laptop handy. See you there!
14:46	compj	yes, of course I thought of this option. but I could not find any documentation for this so I think it's possible that this might be a bug
14:46	compj	the call to setMacro was just a workaround I picked from the defmacro code
14:47	nrichards	di-csuehs: awesome!
14:47	di-csuehs	assuming the kids have been good ;)
14:57	Bronsa	chops: fwiw with this patch http://sprunge.us/KZbH it works
14:58	chops	Bronsa: I think you might be confusing me with someone else
14:58	Bronsa	yeah
14:58	Bronsa	tabfail
14:58	chops	lol :)
14:58	Bronsa	*compj
15:00	compj	Bronsa: so it's a bug?
15:00	Bronsa	it's a missing feature i guess
15:00	compj	:)
15:01	Bronsa	if somebody with a CA can submit it, it'd be great
15:01	compj	+1
15:05	TimMc	Bronsa: You'd want to reformat with tabs. (yuck)
15:05	Bronsa	oh :(
15:16	TimMc	Bronsa: The clojure.core formatting guide is pretty heinous.
15:16	Bronsa	then i guess http://sprunge.us/bWcc this should be good
15:17	Raynes	TimMc: Have you actually looked at clojure.core's formatting?
15:17	Raynes	TimMc: It looks like it was edited by 20 different editors.
15:18	llasram	Raynes: How so?
15:19	TimMc	like someone unleashed a whitespace-randomizer on it, I know
15:20	Raynes	llasram: Well, Emacs indents non-defun-style things with one space if you put a newline before the first argument. `cond` is an example. Vim doesn't bother and puts two spaces. This sort of inconsistency is all over clojure.core.
15:20	Raynes	I don't actually care about 1 vs 2 spaces. It's just worth noting.
15:21	llasram	Raynes: Ah, I see. Interesting. I had not noticed that. And also thought you were talking about the clojure.lang Java code for some reason
15:21	Raynes	I wouldn't dare look at that.
15:22	llasram	I was put off by it at first, but after poking around, it's not bad. The formatting is unconventional, but largely consistent. There aren't many comments, but most of the code (other than the reader) is pretty clear
15:27	TimMc	Raynes: Ah, I was talking about the Java stuff.
15:31	dnolen	TimMc: blame it on IntelliJ
15:35	TimMc	dnolen: Why? Isn't it configurable?
15:38	Raynes	TimMc: Yes. It has settings "Ugly, Hideous, and Unreadable."
15:38	dnolen	Personally I have few problems with the Java source, weirdly formatted - yes. Unreadable hardly.
15:41	llasram	I wonder where rhickey (I assume?) got that formatting style from. It's very much like the formatting style McConnell recommends for C-ish code in /Code Complete/ (for pretty concrete reasons, although I still don't see it very often or use it myself)
15:43	jkkramer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#Whitesmiths_style
15:44	llasram	Interesting.
15:44	hiredman	I like to imagine it was just an easy style to generate from a set of cl macros
15:45	llasram	heh
15:45	hiredman	the only joking part of that sentence is "cl macros" it would of course be generated by cl functions
16:12	grim_radical	is there a way to add a docstring via "defmethod"?
16:13	grim_radical	i see how to do it for defmulti, but i'd like to add some method-specific docs
16:13	phil_	is there a way in paredit.vim to swap to expressions (or just move an expression to the right / left)?
16:13	phil_	two*
16:13	Vinzent	grim_radical, I don't think it's possible
16:14	grim_radical	Vinzent: bummer. :(
16:16	raek	grim_radical: in defmulti/defmethod there is only one var involved (and therefore only one place for the metadata to go), namely the one that is defined by defmulti
16:16	grim_radical	raek: ah, ok
16:17	TimMc	raek: Is there a way to ask a multimethod for the implementation it would use given an argument list?
16:17	brehaut	grim_radical: if you used https://gist.github.com/432752 to install the methods so you could define the functions independently so that they each have a var to hang a doc on
16:17	grim_radical	brehaut: neat! i'll definitely take a look at that
16:17	raek	TimMc: I'm not aware of any public interface for that
16:18	brehaut	grim_radical: you wont get much advantage over just using a ;; comment
16:18	grim_radical	brehaut: yeah, that's my current fallback
16:20	raek	the defmulti docs or the ns docs where the defmethod resides are alternative locations
16:21	jsabeaudry	Is there a way to comment out "the next s-exp" ?
16:21	brehaut	,#_ (prn "a") :foo
16:21	clojurebot	:foo
16:21	brehaut	jsabeaudry: ^
16:22	jsabeaudry	brehaut, Excellent! Thanks!
16:22	brehaut	jsabeaudry: use it carefully. its a great way to cause you pain ;)
16:23	brehaut	jsabeaudry: not all syntax highlighters highlight it and the form thats removed as a comment
16:23	jsabeaudry	brehaut, Oh ya, clojure-mode doesn't color it :(
16:23	brehaut	indeed
16:24	brehaut	im pretty sure the JS SyntaxHighlighter brush does
16:26	brehaut	(not that that is useful when writing code)
16:32	jondot	hey guys, i've got a couple of questions while evaluating clojure
16:32	brehaut	jondot: just ask them
16:32	brehaut	~anyone
16:32	clojurebot	Just a heads up, you're more likely to get some help if you ask the question you really want the answer to, instead of "does anyone ..."
16:32	jondot	first, is clj good for handling low level binary structure? something like erlangs pattern matching
16:33	jondot	sorry my g/f interupted
16:34	hiredman	match (the pattern matching library) has some facilities for matching binary data, but I don't know how widespread that is in practice (I haven't used them)
16:34	brehaut	jondot: clj inherited some pain from jvm: theres no unsigned primative types which can make unpacking some stuff difficult. but beyond that binary data is fine
16:35	compj	TimMc: something happenend to the :macro pathc?
16:35	compj
16:35	compj	*patch
16:35	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/core.match
16:36	jondot	i see. well i planned my first project (just to get a feel for the language) to be an implementation of this, for ring: https://github.com/jondot/rack-ping
16:36	brehaut	hiredman: dnolan was suggesting yesterday that people probably shouldnt build ontop of match till it gets to beta because of some gnarly issues still being resolved
16:36	jondot	i'm wondering, if that is a good fit for a first project - it would mostly be HTTP pipework, regex and imperative style workflow
16:37	tmciver	jondot: not sure about pattern matching but gloss is supposed to be a good binary data lib: https://github.com/ztellman/gloss
16:37	hiredman	brehaut: I see
16:38	TimMc	compj: Is it deleted? Bronsa created a new one. http://sprunge.us/bWcc
16:39	compj	I mean will it be added
16:39	jondot	tmciver: thanks, that looks interesting
16:40	TimMc	compj: Oh, no idea. I'm not on the Clojure/core team (though I do have a CA), I'm not invested in the issue, and it has an easy workaround (I think).
16:40	brehaut	jondot: what does rack_ping do that needs binary eating?
16:41	jondot	brehaut: sorry, i was afraid someone would make the connection. it is unrelated, just me asking question #2.
16:41	brehaut	oh right.
16:41	brehaut	in that case, yeah ring level stuff is a fine place to get started in clojure
16:42	brehaut	jondot: i dont know rack well enough to be able to make sense of the rack ping code though
16:43	jondot	well i've also implemented the same code in javascript (node) and c# (.net) any of that make sense to you?
16:43	brehaut	i understand all the langs, but not the libraries ;)
16:44	jondot	ah! well, my question i guess is along the lines of - there is a bit of grunt work there, like opening a HTTP pipe, regex'ing the content, and 3-4 decision points.
16:44	brehaut	jondot: is it just setting up a url that will attempt to test a variety of http resources?
16:44	jondot	yes.
16:44	brehaut	jondot: thats all trivial!
16:44	brehaut	clj-http takes care of making http connections easily
16:45	brehaut	think of it as the dual of ring github.com/dakrone/clj-http/
16:45	jondot	yes, it is very trivial, but my closest background to lisp is scheme (i've never even opened a socket in scheme) :)
16:46	brehaut	ive never opened a socket in clojure ;) not directly but ive written some xmlrpc crap which is similar to what you are doing
16:46	brehaut	just with more mess
16:46	jondot	well, great then, i'll give it a try for fun.
16:46	brehaut	jondot: https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil/blob/master/src/necessary_evil/core.clj
16:47	Raynes	I've opened a socket.
16:47	Raynes	I didn't like what was inside.
16:47	jondot	hehe
16:47	Raynes	https://github.com/Raynes/irclj has some socket stuff, I think.
16:47	compj	CA is quite a barrier if you just want to make a small contribution
16:48	Raynes	I agree, but it has been discussed until the end of time and they aren't going to change it.
16:48	compj	very sad but they surely have their reasons
16:48	brehaut	jondot: i dont claim that that lib is good code, but its doing the mechanical stuff you want
16:49	jondot	good, i think both of those project make a great reading for newcomers (or at least myself)
16:49	compj	isn't there a simple way to just open a ticket or point to an issue/patch?
16:49	jondot	ah!! and the last question - clj does have tail call right? courtesy of JVM?
16:49	Raynes	They use JIRA which… Sorry, I actually have no clue what they use that abomination.
16:49	Raynes	jondot: It doesn't. But it has 'recur' which works around that.
16:50	brehaut	jondot: nope. it has loop / recur to simulate self calls in the tail position
16:50	Raynes	Well, you don't need a loop for a recur.
16:50	brehaut	of course. my bad
16:50	jondot	hmm is that JVM's fault? i remember one platform which didn't have TCO that felt very weird to me.
16:50	Raynes	https://refheap.com/paste/388
16:50	brehaut	if you want mutual recursion to be tail recursive you need a trampoline
16:51	Raynes	The JVM doesn't have anything for tail calls.
16:51	TimMc	jondot: JVM might add TCO some day, there was talk of it.
16:51	brehaut	yeah the JVM is to blame. clojure could just do its own tialcalls (like scala does) but that causes problems for interop
16:51	TimMc	Didn't make it into 7.
16:51	Raynes	jondot: See my paste above for an example of recur.
16:51	jondot	oh, well nice to know that scala does it. thanks Rayens - checking it
16:51	Raynes	jondot: You can basically just replace a tail call with recur and it magically works.
16:52	jondot	i see, well from my narrow experience, looks like good enough
16:53	jondot	thanks guys, i've learnt a lot, off to start fiddling around with ring!
16:54	technomancy	avian has TCO
16:54	Raynes	technomancy: And flu.
16:54	Raynes	~rimshot
16:54	clojurebot	Badum, tish
16:54	brehaut	avian?
16:54	technomancy	Raynes: how badly do you want it?
16:55	Raynes	That sounded dirty.
16:55	technomancy	clojurebot: avian is an alternate JVM implementation that's capable of running some subset of Clojure with TCO and continuations: http://oss.readytalk.com/avian/index.html
16:55	technomancy	it also can AOT-compile straight to machine code
16:55	technomancy	clojurebot: where did you go?
16:55	clojurebot	Pardon?
16:55	brehaut	huh thats really interesting
16:56	Raynes	Yeah, it's totally stellar, dood.
16:56	technomancy	clojurebot: avian is an alternate JVM implementation that's capable of running some subset of Clojure with TCO and continuations: http://oss.readytalk.com/avian/index.html
16:56	clojurebot	Roger.
16:56	brehaut	hows its performance compared to oracle/open jdks?
16:57	clojurebot	Alles klar
16:57	technomancy	brehaut: not very good
16:57	brehaut	i guess that shouldnt be surprising
16:57	technomancy	it's intended for embedding in larger C programs a la guile IIUC
16:58	brehaut	oh right. thats interesting in its own right
16:59	arkh	is there a why to specify classpath for clojure-jack-in ?
17:00	brehaut	arkh: err, i would guess that you do so in the project.clj for the project you are jacking in to
17:00	raek	arkh: clojure-jack-in uses whatever classpath leiningen provides it.
17:01	arkh	I'm specifically running into a problem with clojurescript one and it's dependences that aren't in ./lib
17:02	arkh	maybe I just need to look at leiningen but clojurescript one has a shell script that grabs its sundry dependencies
17:09	brehaut	holy crap. international shipping on oreilly books is prohibitively expensive 30$
17:09	kedoodek	ebooks are the future
17:09	jodaro	and the present
17:11	brehaut	no kidding
17:14	arkh	how does one add to what lein builds for a classpath?
17:15	technomancy	arkh: I think you should try the lein-cljsbuild plugin
17:15	schleyfox	hi, I'm having a bit of trouble with proxy. I'm using a lib that requires anonymous classes derived from a class, so I'm proxying it. It's two functions are the same arity and name but different types
17:16	schleyfox	I'm type hinting in my proxy, but I can't seem to get the right method called
17:16	phil_	technomancy: ive been using cljs-watch for now but this looks great
17:20	arkh	brehaut, raek, technomancy: thank you
17:24	schleyfox	so any ideas on why proxy is ignoring my type hints and proxying the wrong function?
17:24	the-kenny	phil_: cljsbuild is awesome. I used cljs-watch some weeks ago too, cljsbuild is much better :)
17:24	the-kenny	(though not perfect)
17:25	brehaut	schleyfox: you'll probably want to paste up an example somewhere (gist, refheap etc)
17:26	emezeske_	the-kenny: taking suggestions on how to make cljsbuild perfect. ^_^
17:26	the-kenny	emezeske_: haha :D
17:26	the-kenny	emezeske_: I'll have to try the newest version first, I'll come back to you :)
17:26	muhoo	didn't proxy get replaced by something else? reify maybe?
17:26	emezeske_	the-kenny: cool, thanks
17:27	technomancy	emezeske_: do you have a version that uses the canonical clojurescript artifacts yet?
17:27	brehaut	muhoo: not exactly. proxy fills a similar but different role
17:27	emezeske_	technomancy: yep, the latest version depends on them
17:27	technomancy	great
17:27	brehaut	muhoo: in particular proxy's are fully dynamic (and can be monkey patched!) and allow you to proxy to a class, where reify is only protocols and interfaces
17:27	the-kenny	emezeske_: One thing which I found slightly annoying was the copying of the .clj files to the cljs dir in order to make crossover compilation possible.
17:28	the-kenny	emezeske: Also, lein cljsbuild auto didn't watch the crossover source-files.
17:29	emezeske	the-kenny: regarding point #2, when you try the latest version, if it doesn't do that, could you open an issue? I thought that worked.
17:29	emezeske	the-kenny: regarding point #1, would you prefer they were copied elsewhere? or just used in-place?
17:30	schleyfox	brehaut: https://gist.github.com/1665869
17:30	schleyfox	muhoo: also reify works on protocols and interfaces
17:31	schleyfox	I need concrete class stuff
17:31	hiredman	schleyfox: type hints like that do nothing for proxies
17:32	hiredman	they work by name+arity
17:32	the-kenny	emezeske: In-Place. It's too easy to confuse the copy with the original .clj and make changes on the wrong file
17:32	schleyfox	hiredman: damn, any way to get that behavior?
17:32	the-kenny	emezeske: I'll open that ticket when it fails with the newest version :)
17:32	hiredman	so you'll need to check if ther argument is an instance of something else and forward via proxy-super
17:33	hiredman	(if (instance? … …) do-stuff (proxy-super thisMethod …))
17:33	schleyfox	hiredman: but from the docs: "they have no other access to protected members, nor to super, as these capabilities cannot be proxied."
17:33	hiredman	,(doc proxy-super)
17:33	clojurebot	"([meth & args]); Use to call a superclass method in the body of a proxy method. Note, expansion captures 'this"
17:34	schleyfox	yeah, I just did
17:34	kmicu	emezeske_:cljsbuild support for ":define "goog.userAgent.ASSUME_MOBILE_WEBKIT"
17:34	kmicu	" in project.clj would be great! :)
17:34	schleyfox	cool, thanks
17:34	the-kenny	emezeske: Sorry, have to go. University is so annoying :(
17:35	the-kenny	Night!
17:36	MenTaLguY	hi, so I was reading http://clojure.org/lazy, and I'm not sure I fully understand why the "step" helper function is necessary to avoid a leak
17:37	hiredman	that is old stuff
17:37	hiredman	streams are currently off the table
17:37	MenTaLguY	eh?
17:37	MenTaLguY	is lazy-seq being dropped from future versions of clojure then?
17:37	hiredman	oh, sorry that is not the streams page, forget I said anything
17:37	MenTaLguY	oh
17:37	hiredman	streams are something totally different
17:38	nickmbailey	oh i saw the streams page the other day and thought it looked interesting, not happening?
17:39	broquaint	I'm wonder if I'm getting lazy when I consider a lein plugin to add deps to project.clj e.g lein add-dep noir ...
17:41	hiredman	https://gist.github.com/a1f737bfe0d70a385d4c
17:41	emezeske	kmicu: is that a cljs compiler option?
17:42	kmicu	emezeske: yes java -jar compiler.jar --help
17:42	kmicu	emezeske: more info in Google Closure Definitive Guide
17:43	emezeske	kmicu: do you know if there's anyway to pass that option via the normal 'cljsc' command?
17:43	kmicu	emezeske: i try to run ClojureScript One on Android and now I've done several tricks like that option manually :)
17:44	emezeske	kmicu: I see. Right now, I think the options that can be passed through the clojurescript compiler into the google closure compiler are kind of limited
17:45	emezeske	kmicu: if you wouldn't mind opening an issue at https://github.com/emezeske/lein-cljsbuild/issues?sort=updated&direction=desc&state=closed , I'd appreciate it
17:45	MenTaLguY	hmm
17:45	kmicu	emezeske: no problem
17:45	MenTaLguY	so is the helper function, "step", really necessary to avoid a leak in the example on clojure.org/lazy?
17:45	emezeske	kmicu: thanks.
17:45	schleyfox	hiredman: ok, so the issue now is that my proxied method only gets called from within the method that I proxy-super to, so my proxy is removed while it executes
17:45	MenTaLguY	or is that there for some other reason
17:46	schleyfox	hiredman: I assume this is now the time to break out my diddling gloves and get real close with RT and java
17:46	broquaint	Thanks, hiredman :)
17:47	broquaint	Aha, it's elisp, time to write me a keybinding.
17:50	hiredman	schleyfox: you'll need to gen-class most likely
17:51	hiredman	broquaint: I think that gist may be missing bits like the favorite-libraries and get′
17:52	hiredman	broquaint: https://gist.github.com/e6a92b792d43775ad615
17:57	schleyfox	hiredman: thanks for the tips, I think I'm just going to extend the class in java to take a provided IFn and invoke it
17:57	TimMc	MenTaLguY: It does seem kind of weird, doesn't it?
17:57	MenTaLguY	yeah, I'm actually trying the example now without the helper fn, and it seems to work fine without any extra memory usage
17:58	TimMc	MenTaLguY: Actually... how do you write it without the helper?
17:58	broquaint	Thanks again, hiredman :)
17:58	MenTaLguY	(defn myfilter [pred coll]
17:58	MenTaLguY	(lazy-seq
17:58	MenTaLguY	(if (pred (first coll))
17:58	MenTaLguY	(cons (first coll) (filter pred (rest coll)))
17:58	MenTaLguY	(filter pred (rest coll)))))
17:59	MenTaLguY	ideally you'd really want to call seq on coll and then save that in a local
17:59	TimMc	Ah, right. I've seen that style all over the place.
18:01	lpetit	MenTaLguY: when does the iteration stop in your definition ? ^^ :)
18:01	phil_	is assoc-in copy-on-write in cljs?
18:02	aclj	hi =D
18:02	phil_	lpetit: i assume (pred) returns nil when (first coll) returns nil
18:02	MenTaLguY	lpetit: oh, whoops, I forgot a (when)
18:02	MenTaLguY	yeah, but pred returning nil won't terminate iteration
18:02	dnolen	phil_: everything except cons'ing on a seq is copy-on-write
18:02	dnolen	in cljs
18:03	lpetit	MenTaLguY: a when-let will also store (first coll)
18:03	phil_	MenTaLguY: if(nil) is false i think?
18:03	aclj	anyone tried to create libs in clojure and import them in android ? how is the performance ?
18:03	phil_	dnolen: i mean "real" copy-on-write, like vectors etc, i.e. without data reuse
18:04	dnolen	phil_: maps, sets, vectors all copy-on-write
18:05	technomancy	aclj: not very good
18:05	phil_	defrecords? or are they just maps?
18:05	lpetit	phil_: yes, any data structure provided by clojure, by default (that is, unless explicitly specified otherwise in the doc)
18:06	alg	technomancy: i mean, not develop the entire app in clojure, but only a set of lib to import in the java code of the app
18:06	technomancy	alg: you can't really trim clojure code down below a certain level; it brings the whole runtime with it
18:07	phil_	lpetit: im not talking about persistence, the problem is that cljs copies the WHOLE vector / map etc whenever something changes, as opposed to the normal clojure data structures where only a small part is created from scratch and everything else is reused
18:07	lpetit	phil_: oh indeed, (blush)
18:08	phil_	:)
18:08	phil_	so im outta luck unless i patch em myself :(
18:09	TimMc	phil_: a.k.a. contribute a patch
18:09	MenTaLguY	yeah, I seem to be having a really hard time provoking the space leak that clojure.org/lazy warns about, even without using a helper fn
18:10	MenTaLguY	(myfilter #(= % 20) (map inc (range 10000000000))) has been running for a couple minutes now, and the resident size and heap size are still flatlined
18:10	phil_	TimMc: yea, im planning on doing so anyway, just not yet... i heard there is some contributor agreement or something in place?
18:10	MenTaLguY	(more or less)
18:11	alg	teachnomancy: that's a pity, thanks
18:11	technomancy	hah; teachnomancy... nice.
18:15	TimMc	technomancy: I suppose resource-constrained platforms like Android are an argument against the uberjar distribution model.
18:16	technomancy	TimMc: I dunno, Android is already absolute crap at code-sharing
18:16	TimMc	Although... maybe two Clojure apps wouldn't be able to share a Clojure instance. I don't know enough about JVMs and classloaders.
18:16	TimMc	Ah, OK.
18:16	technomancy	dead-code elimination will likely be much more beneficial
18:16	TimMc	Interesting.
18:17	klutometis	Anyone have any idea how I'd quote caret? '^ doesn't work: the reader thinks I'm talking about metadata.
18:18	Chousuke	caret? as in the character?
18:18	Chousuke	\^
18:19	klutometis	Chousuke: I'm trying to use it as a symbol, not a character.
18:19	Chousuke	you can't.
18:19	brehaut	(symbol "^")
18:19	klutometis	I guess (symbol "^") suffices, but it's ugly.
18:19	klutometis	brehaut: Thanks.
18:19	Chousuke	it's an illegal symbol though
18:19	TimMc	klutometis: Ugly things shold look ugly...
18:20	Chousuke	so you really shouldn't :P
18:20	klutometis	TimMc: Oh, Zeus; really? In Scheme, no character is ugly.
18:21	TimMc	klutometis: Shceme uses symbols differently.
18:21	Chousuke	what do you need a caret symbol for anyway?
18:21	klutometis	I'm defining a regex-like DSL, by the way, where ^ signifies ordered subsets; it's a beatiful pun, I think.
18:21	TimMc	klutometis: (^ 4 5) is gonna fail.
18:21	Chousuke	yeah, you can't use ^ for your own purposes
18:21	Chousuke	it's a reader macro
18:22	klutometis	TimMc: You're right; that sucks. Ok: maybe `!', then. Though I've got to find something else for `not'. Maybe `~'.
18:22	klutometis	Thanks.
18:22	amalloy	~ won't make you very happy either
18:22	clojurebot	Huh?
18:23	amalloy	for similar reasons
18:23	TimMc	klutometis: Use some non-ASCII. :-P
18:23	Chousuke	well, ~ is not a reader macro
18:23	Chousuke	though I'm not sure if it works outside `
18:23	Chousuke	,~
18:23	TimMc	&(let [~ 4] ~)
18:23	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
18:23	hiredman	well it is, but it isn't
18:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading character>
18:23	Chousuke	hmm, I suppose
18:23	hiredman	like '
18:24	brehaut	how about (💩 4 5)
18:24	Chousuke	so ~ is a reader macro outside syntax-quote but doesn't work :P
18:25	TimMc	&(let [~~ 4] ~~)
18:25	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )
18:25	amalloy	jeez, brehaut, you should hang out with us on the BMP. my font doesn't have a glyph for that one :P
18:25	brehaut	amalloy: BMP ?
18:25	TimMc	Oh, I thought he was suggesting question-mark.
18:25	TimMc	Basic Multilingual Plane
18:25	brehaut	nope: unicode pile of poo
18:26	brehaut	sorry
18:26	TimMc	Pick stuff from the Emoticons block: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/block/emoticons/images.htm
18:27	amalloy	i only vaguely know what the basic multilingual plane actually means, but since my client rendered that as a three-byte pile of soggy mess, i think it must be outside the two-byte BMP area
18:28	TimMc	http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm
18:28	TimMc	Haha, the spec actually says "poo".
18:28	brehaut	frighteningly on the mac its rendered with a little colored image and it has eyes
18:30	TimMc	haha
18:30	TimMc	It's from a block that is mostly (all?) from Japanese charsets
18:30	brehaut	the emoji set?
18:30	TimMc	Hmm, perhaps not...
18:31	TimMc	"U+1F46F WOMAN WITH BUNNY EARS" <-- well, maybe
18:32	brehaut	haha
18:32	TimMc	There's stuff in there like "blue heart", "green heart"... is this supposed to include color? o.O
18:34	amalloy	TimMc: you didn't know? unicode uses three bytes to encode RGB color, so the BMP is just all the different colors for "squarish blob"
18:38	TimMc	haha
19:08	solussd	long shot, but does anyone have any idea why my program would blow up when it tries to add a string containing a ≪ to a collection? It works fine in the repl but the same code blows up when executed from a jar
19:17	stevesj76	debating on the use of futures vs agents when we don't care about the return value. any advice?
19:17	stevesj76	(sending email in the background)
19:21	brehaut	futures would be my pick because its simpler
19:21	brehaut	they both use the thread pool under the hood i believe
19:21	stevesj76	does that mean that the thread pool works like send for agents?
19:22	brehaut	yeah i believe so
19:23	hiredman	no, send uses a bounded threadpool
19:23	stevesj76	more like send-off then?
19:23	hiredman	send-off and futures use a theoretically unbounded pool
19:23	stevesj76	awesome thanks
19:23	hiredman	yes, future uses the same threadpool as send-off
19:32	dgrnbrg	Are records redefinable within a repl, or are they not conducive to repl debugging?
19:32	brehaut	you can redefine them
19:35	technomancy	you can redefine them, but not retroactively IIRC
19:35	brehaut	existing instances stay with the old implementation right?
19:35	technomancy	I think so; instances of the old record definition won't pick up the changes even though they will claim to be of the same class
19:35	technomancy	or rather, they will claim to be of a class which is visually indistinguishable from the current one, but actually different
19:36	brehaut	sure. that makes sense
19:37	brehaut	thats going to result in potential funny interactions with protocols right?
19:37	dgrnbrg	brehaut, technomancy: thanks
19:37	dgrnbrg	I'm currently using protocols and records and I'm getting lots of class already defined exceptions from the repl
19:38	dgrnbrg	I just want to develop rapidly, and get away from the need to constantly restart the jvm
19:39	dgrnbrg	man, there are weird rules for what goes inside (comment) blocks
19:39	dgrnbrg	No trailing colon, no number followed by 2 asterisks
19:40	hiredman	dgrnbrg: it has to be a readable form
19:40	dgrnbrg	Are those bugs or quirks?
19:40	hiredman	(comment ...) is a just a macro
19:40	hiredman	so the body has to pass through the reader
19:40	dgrnbrg	Is there a way I can make it shut up?
19:40	hiredman	use ; or #_
19:40	dgrnbrg	just totally disable reader input
19:40	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:40	dgrnbrg	; would be as effective at that?
19:41	dgrnbrg	awesome, I can prefix (comment...) lines with ; that have special characters
19:41	brehaut	dgrnbrg: comment is not magic: its roughly just (defmacro comment [& body] nil)
19:42	brehaut	; is just like a line terminating comment in any other language
19:42	dgrnbrg	so ; is handled by the reader, while (comment) isn't?
19:42	dgrnbrg	comment being a macro
19:43	brehaut	correct
19:43	brehaut	#_ is also handled by the reader, but it behaves different (its still form oriented)
19:43	dgrnbrg	brehaut, when do I want #_ vs. ;?
19:44	brehaut	where comment results in a nil, #_ skips the form entirely
19:44	dgrnbrg	ah, i see
19:44	brehaut	,(if #_true false :a :b)
19:44	dgrnbrg	so comment is an argument to a function potentially?
19:44	clojurebot	:b
19:44	brehaut	,(if true false :a :b)
19:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Too many arguments to if, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:44	brehaut	,(if (comment true) false :a :b)
19:44	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Too many arguments to if, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
19:44	brehaut	exactly
19:44	dgrnbrg	ahah
19:45	dgrnbrg	very interesting
19:45	dgrnbrg	I really like clojure
19:45	dgrnbrg	I'm using it to write an fpga programming language
19:51	brehaut	dgrnbrg: clojure is a likable language ;)
19:53	TimMc	solussd: Can you give me a minimal testcase with the string?
19:58	TimMc	I'd like to compare simple version numbers (3, 1.2.0, etc.) -- anyone have a thought on that?
20:00	brehaut	,(compare [3] [1 2 0])
20:00	clojurebot	-1
20:00	TimMc	ooh
20:00	brehaut	:)
20:00	TimMc	brehaut: How do I drop trailing zeroes?
20:01	TimMc	I want 1.2 == 1.2.0
20:01	TimMc	I guess I could preprocess with a regex. -.-
20:01	brehaut	,(take-while (complement zero?) [1 2 0])
20:01	clojurebot	(1 2)
20:01	technomancy	TimMc: there's a simplistic implementation in leiningen.core.main/version-satisfies?
20:01	TimMc	,(take-while (complement zero?) [0 0 3 0 1 2 0])
20:01	clojurebot	()
20:01	brehaut	rats
20:01	TimMc	It can't be done in the standard way.
20:02	TimMc	I mean, in a take/drop way
20:02	TimMc	With two reverses it becomes simple.
20:02	brehaut	ah yes.
20:02	brehaut	theres a name for that sort of operation
20:02	brehaut	but i cant remember it
20:03	TimMc	drop-last is close...
20:04	TimMc	technomancy: Oh, is that on master?
20:04	brehaut	TimMc: i'd just do the reverse trice
20:05	technomancy	TimMc: aye, in the leiningen-core directory
20:05	TimMc	brehaut: 3 times seems a bit excessive, no? :-P
20:05	brehaut	TimMc: conjugate is the name of that op
20:06	solussd	TimMc: I've figured out that calling out to libc/stat with a file-path that contains non-ascii characters doesn't work. Unrelated to clojure in every way. thanks though. :)
20:07	TimMc	solussd: Heh, OK.
20:10	technomancy	so... should throwing an exception be treated as a side-effect (something you should do before your return value in a when) or placed inside an if next to the return value?
20:10	technomancy	I've always done the former but haven't thought about it much
20:11	TimMc	"when" screams "side-effect". It also simplifies the visual flow of control.
20:12	brehaut	,((fn [a b] (let [s->v (fn [vs] (vec (reverse (drop-while zero? (reverse (map #(Integer. %) (.split vs "[.]")))))))] (compare (s->v a) (s->v b))) "0.1.3.0" "0.1.3")
20:12	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
20:13	brehaut	,((fn [a b] (let [s->v (fn [vs] (vec (reverse (drop-while zero? (reverse (map #(Integer. %) (.split vs "[.]")))))))] (compare (s->v a) (s->v b)))) "0.1.3" "0.1.3.0")
20:13	clojurebot	0
20:14	brehaut	technomancy: i'd treat it as a side effect i think?
20:15	TimMc	technomancy: version-satisfies? uses #"\d" instead of #"\d+" -- probably a bug.
20:15	technomancy	TimMc: oy; yes
20:15	technomancy	brehaut: yeah, I'm starting to think the only people who'd consider the alternative reasonable would be folks who have been damaged by a runtime that doesn't support exceptions. =)
20:15	brehaut	technomancy: lol :)
20:16	brehaut	is there a runtime that doesnt support exceptions?
20:16	TimMc	brehaut: Ah, I like [.] instead of \\.
20:16	brehaut	the robot eye operator
20:16	technomancy	brehaut: I mean returning integer error codes
20:16	technomancy	C
20:16	brehaut	technomancy: aha right
20:17	TimMc	brehaut: I'll end up using \d+ after seeing technomancy's impl.
20:17	brehaut	technomancy: some haskell programmers would suggest that exceptions form an implicit sum type and that you can use monads to control the flow without having to do a violent stack unwind
20:17	technomancy	I believe them; you can do anything with monads apparently.
20:17	brehaut	(eg using an Either type)
20:18	hiredman	except the stack unwind is faster
20:18	hiredman	(on the jvm)
20:18	brehaut	hiredman: sshh!
20:18	schleyfox	that just sounds painful and academic
20:18	technomancy	didn't realize they could be used to curb violence though
20:18	hiredman	technomancy: in the same way any weapon can be used to curb violence
20:18	brehaut	technomancy: only on the stack
20:18	tavis	brehaut: something's not Right
20:18	dgrnbrg	How do I set the hierarchy that a multimethod uses? I tried writing (defmulti docstring dispatch-fn :hierarchy myhier) but it failed with PersistantArrayMap cannot be cast to IRef
20:19	dgrnbrg	but if I remove ":hierarchy myhier" it works
20:19	brehaut	tavis: wait. i thought right was the error path
20:19	tavis	depends, are you left handed?
20:20	technomancy	TimMc: well here's your chance for a sticker
20:20	tavis	Left is usually the error
20:20	brehaut	tavis: so it is; apparently ive just always visuallized the type backwards in my head :P
20:21	TimMc	technomancy: I think I already qualify.
20:21	technomancy	oh, nice
20:22	tavis	brehaut: well, things are upside down in your part of the world ;)
20:22	brehaut	thats true enough
20:22	tavis	I lived in Dunedin for 5 years, btw
20:22	brehaut	oh right
20:22	tavis	was in Hamilton last year
20:22	brehaut	university?
20:22	tavis	yep
20:22	brehaut	huh
20:22	brehaut	im in hamilton this year
20:23	tavis	figured
20:23	technomancy	wow, NZ is really milking this LOTR thing for all it's worth; naming a city after the Dunedain.
20:23	brehaut	lol
20:23	amalloy	technomancy: fwiw, i prefer (... (if (broken?) (throw...) (work))) to (... (when (broken?) (throw...)) (work))
20:23	technomancy	amalloy: exprain?
20:25	amalloy	it feels to me like two directions the computation could go: throw an exception, or work. the when-variant reads more like: "i'm going to do work, but first i may need to do this other thing as a side effect to make it work"
20:25	technomancy	you mean like ... pre-conditions? =)
20:26	technomancy	actually I should just use real preconditions for this
20:26	technomancy	derp
20:26	solussd	hmm. shouldn't I be able to create a NativeString like this: (com.sun.jna.NativeString. "myString" true), I get an exception: [Thrown class java.lang.IllegalAccessError] any ideas?
20:26	TimMc	technomancy: I'll send a pull request, mostly because I need the practice.
20:27	hiredman	solussd: my guess is nativestring's constructor is private
20:27	solussd	hiredman: hmm. docs say public: http://jna.java.net/javadoc/com/sun/jna/NativeString.html
20:28	hiredman	what does the rest of the stacktrace say?
20:29	TimMc	technomancy: Umm... should I be able to run lein 2 using lein 1.6.2?
20:29	technomancy	TimMc: you should be able to operate on leiningen-core using lein1
20:29	technomancy	for the top-level project use the bin/lein script
20:29	TimMc	got it, thanks
20:31	TimMc	technomancy: Do you prefer people create feature branches, or just work on the target branch?
20:31	solussd	hiredman: ah ha! com.sun.jna.Native/toCharArray is what I needed. some reason, despite the docs, NativeString is not public
20:32	technomancy	TimMc: depends on the work. your regex tweak can go on master. =)
20:33	TimMc	Conditional on complexity, got it.
20:38	dgrnbrg	Can anyone show me code that uses defmulti with the :hierarchy optional argument?
20:38	dgrnbrg	I tried (defmulti name #(stuff %) :hierarchy my-hierarchy) but it doesn't compile
20:40	amalloy	you need to give it a ref of a hierarchy, so that it can be modified when you (derive) something
20:41	amalloy	&@#'clojure.core/global-hierarchy
20:41	lazybot	⇒ {:parents {}, :descendants {}, :ancestors {}}
20:41	dgrnbrg	amalloy, could I do #'my-hierarchy if I def my hierarchy as a global var?
20:42	technomancy	amalloy: language!
20:42	amalloy	probably. i dunno, try it
20:42	dgrnbrg	so that's not a standard pattern?
20:42	dgrnbrg	I tried it, it works
20:43	amalloy	setting up hierarchies for multimethods is not very common
20:43	TimMc	It's not deprecated, though.
20:44	dgrnbrg	ok, i see
20:44	dgrnbrg	what's the function like use for namespaces that are already loaded?
20:45	TimMc	dgrnbrg: refer
20:45	dgrnbrg	thanks
20:45	technomancy	you can just keep doing use though
20:46	dgrnbrg	Is a hierarchy mutable or immutable?
20:46	dgrnbrg	Oh, I see
20:46	dgrnbrg	I'm supposed to def an atom for the hierarchy
20:46	dgrnbrg	maybe?
20:46	dgrnbrg	does derive have side effects?
20:47	dgrnbrg	derive doesn't have side effects
20:47	dgrnbrg	it seems like that should be documented
20:53	TimMc	dgrnbrg: Of course it does, it changes the hierarchy!
20:54	tavis	amalloy: I think lazybot just insulted your parents, your ancestors and descendants as a retort to &@#'
20:59	TimMc	Interesting design decision there.
20:59	TimMc	They could have written it so that you had to swap! and explicitly refer to a hierarchy.
21:00	TimMc	I suppose derive and underive are safely repeatable, though.
21:25	TheBusby	Q: Anyone have any experience effeciently serializing seq's of Clojure data structures?
21:26	brehaut	yes someone is bound to
21:26	TheBusby	currently using a combination of pr-str and java.util.zip , but having issues with custom dictionaries for dealing with longs seq's of maps
21:26	brehaut	why?
21:26	clojurebot	Why is the ram gone is <reply>I blame UTF-16. http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/but-why-is-the-ram-gone
21:27	brehaut	~botsnack
21:27	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
21:27	TheBusby	working with rather large amounts of data, like 100M records like {:name "bob" :age 44}
21:27	brehaut	TheBusby: building strings rather than using a string builder (or printing to out) is inefficient
21:27	TheBusby	it all gets converted to byte[] in the end
21:28	brehaut	TheBusby: what do you mean by " issues with custom dictionaries"
21:29	TheBusby	java.util.zip uses huffman encoding to reduce the space needed for common symbols
21:30	TheBusby	if I compress all 100M records at once, everything works fine
21:30	TheBusby	but if I want to compress a record at a time, you need to provide a "dictionary" (java API term)
21:30	TheBusby	so the compression routine knows what is common and what isn't
21:31	TheBusby	same even if ":name" only appears once in each string, the fact that it appears in 100M strings means it's a good candidate for reduction
21:31	brehaut	TheBusby: what is the exact class you are using?
21:31	TheBusby	anyways, this was just the road I was currently going down. Curious if anyone else had encountered similar issues and had other solutions
21:31	TheBusby	brehaut: class I'm using for compression? java.util.zip.deflate
21:32	TheBusby	brehaut: should I be looking at a different compression library?
21:32	brehaut	TheBusby: if you use an output stream i think you will have more luck
21:33	TheBusby	brehaut: that would be compressing all of the records at once though wouldn't it?
21:33	brehaut	TheBusby: i havent done any file IO in a while, but i recall that output streams can be stacked. out is an OutputStreamWriter of some description
21:33	brehaut	TheBusby: pass
21:33	TheBusby	brehaut: unfortunately I need 100M independent compressed byte[] :(
21:34	brehaut	does it have to be defalte ?
21:35	TheBusby	brehaut: no another library would work, but I need fast random access of the 100M records/elements
21:35	brehaut	TheBusby: right. zip will let you have random access (each map becomes a file)
21:36	brehaut	TheBusby: and gzip uses adaptive compression so it doesnt need to know the entire contents at once
21:36	TheBusby	brehaut: Just FYI, each map becomes a byte[], which is stored in RAM
21:37	TheBusby	isn't gzip ~= java.util.zip.Deflator?
21:37	brehaut	hmm. it might be?
21:38	brehaut	im out of my depth sorry
21:39	TheBusby	brehaut: any other ideas of how to store a large number of maps in RAM?
21:39	brehaut	TheBusby: i'd store them in a DB of some kind, perhaps with a cache in front of it
21:40	brehaut	from the sales pitch, redis sounds like it might be a good choice
21:40	TheBusby	most DB's have a significant overheard for each record
21:40	brehaut	they do
21:41	TheBusby	I looked a redis for something else a year or two back and it had an overhead of 10-20B per record
21:41	TheBusby	thank you for the advice though, I'll double check to see if they've improved things! ;)
21:41	schleyfox	TheBusby: to be fair, so do most languages
21:42	brehaut	TheBusby: the reason i would use a DB is that they have already put the hard work into managing memory and caching etc
21:42	TheBusby	if you store the whole data set in memory though, typical (non-CPU) caching isn't effective
21:43	brehaut	if you have to store the whole dataset in memory and are concerned about cpu though, compressing each record is going to eat a lot of CPU too though
21:43	brehaut	also, if its 100MB and i knew it wasnt going to grow fast, i'd just put the whole lot into a map
21:43	brehaut	map of maps that is
21:43	TheBusby	decompression is fairly fast though
21:43	brehaut	and eat the ram
21:43	clojurebot	No entiendo
21:44	TheBusby	faster than RAM access in some cases
21:44	brehaut	TheBusby: my preference is always for a simple solution first though
21:45	TheBusby	brehaut: I'm a firm believer in KISS as well. Unfortunately that isn't really suitable here. KISS in my case would probably be a Hadoop cluster... :(
21:45	brehaut	TheBusby: out of curiosity, what are you trying to solve?
21:47	TheBusby	brehaut: Building graphs to describe entities and then match them together from multiple data sets
21:47	brehaut	TheBusby: do the entities have consistent keys and change infrequently?
21:48	TheBusby	brehaut: no fairly static
21:48	brehaut	TheBusby: this is hypothetical, but you might find that records use less ram than maps
21:48	TheBusby	brehaut: an example would be taking data sets about people and matching them together (not what I'm actually doing)
21:49	TheBusby	brehaut: records or structs would be great, but unfortunately this is fairly schema-less :(
21:49	brehaut	oh :(
21:49	TheBusby	brehaut: using the people example, everyone has a name but not everyone has a dog
21:57	TheBusby	brehaut: thanks for the input, I'll see if I can put up a gist or a brief blog when I get something going. ;)
21:57	brehaut	TheBusby: id be interested to see that
21:59	schleyfox	TheBusby: I know nathanmarz is writing a book basically just about that
22:00	TheBusby	schleyfox: I hope to catch him on IRC or at the Conj then. ;)
22:01	TheBusby	appropriate link to book: http://www.manning.com/marz/
22:01	schleyfox	I believe that's the one
22:02	TheBusby	schleyfox: thank you for pointing me to that. I may have to get the MEAP
22:03	schleyfox	it's still pretty early stage, but the second chapter does layout a graph type structure that may be along the lines of what you're thinking
22:03	TheBusby	at the moment though, I'll see if I can put together a little library for compressing a large seq
22:03	schleyfox	very hadoop/storm oriented though
22:03	schleyfox	nice
22:04	TheBusby	schleyfox: if my data set was 10x larger I'd be doing that, since I can fit everything into RAM though (< 100GB) I've found it's faster to keep everything on one box since in many cases the data sets are have links to each other everywhere
22:04	schleyfox	yeah, that makes sense
22:05	TheBusby	clojure's sequence library makes so many operations so convenient. I'd love to stick a compression/serialization library in the middle somewhere just to save on memory usage
22:06	TimMc	Man, is there any reason why ###{1 1 1} should throw?
22:06	schleyfox	that would be awesome
22:06	TimMc	&#{1 1 1}
22:06	lazybot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 1
22:06	dgrnbrg	TheBusby, fyi, you can add keys to records that you didn't initially declare on them and they'll go into an augmentation map thingy
22:07	dgrnbrg	TheBusby, so if you have some common data, they can sit in records, but you can use it just like a map otherwise
22:07	TheBusby	Ooooh that sounds very valuable!
22:07	phil_	TimMc: a hash set with duplicate keys doesnt make sense :/ or am i misunderstanding something?
22:08	TheBusby	dgrnbrg: Wouldn't I still need to serialize and compress though if I have many strings?
22:08	dgrnbrg	Yes, but for RAM utilization, you wouldn't need MapEntries for the common data
22:08	dgrnbrg	it depends on whether each record has 4 fixed keys and 100 variable keys
22:08	brehaut	TheBusby: is it possible to have keywords instead of strings? keywords are already interned for you so much lower ram usage
22:09	dgrnbrg	or 4 fixed keys and a handful of non-fixed
22:09	TheBusby	sorry, I meant strings as values not keys
22:09	dgrnbrg	strings are also interned, often
22:10	dgrnbrg	you can call String.intern() to get the interned version for certain
22:10	TimMc	phil_: Sets don't have instance count semantics, so it shouldn't matter if you specify something twice.
22:10	tmciver	,(set [1 1 1])
22:10	TheBusby	going off to read about String.intern() be back in a bit. Thanks all!
22:10	TimMc	(element count, whatever -- I'm making up a phrase)
22:10	clojurebot	#{1}
22:10	apwalk	,(into #{} [1 1])
22:10	clojurebot	#{1}
22:11	TimMc	,(hash-set 1 1)
22:11	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 1>
22:11	phil_	,(into #{1} [1])
22:11	clojurebot	#{1}
22:11	TimMc	(let [x ___] #{1 2 5 x 9}) ; might fail, who knows?
22:12	jeremyheiler	TimMc: looks like insertion is different that instantiation.
22:12	phil_	TimMc: yea, but (int #{} [1 2 5 x 9]) won't
22:12	phil_	into*
22:13	TimMc	Right, there are easy workarounds, but it shouldn't even be a thing you have to think of.
22:13	phil_	but it shouldnt bomb out when making a new instance
22:13	phil_	its unexpected
22:13	phil_	yea
22:13	jeremyheiler	it's interesting
22:14	apwalk	is the expected way to handle it, to wrap it in a try?
22:14	TimMc	,(import clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet)
22:14	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet
22:14	TimMc	apwalk: Nah, just create it a different way.
22:14	phil_	apwalk: that would be insane (if it was expected)
22:14	TimMc	,(PersistentHashSet/create 1 1)
22:14	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method: create, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:15	TimMc	ah, that's a varargs...
22:15	TimMc	,(PersistentHashSet/create (to-array [1 1]))
22:15	clojurebot	#{1}
22:16	TimMc	,(PersistentHashSet/createWithCheck (to-array [1 1]))
22:16	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 1>
22:16	phil_	the reader bombs out, not the class itself
22:16	phil_	(i think)
22:16	phil_	ah
22:16	TimMc	Nah, the reader is calling createWithCheck
22:16	phil_	ok :D
22:16	TimMc	but why?
22:17	phil_	maybe "fail fast" philosophy?
22:18	TimMc	But it's a set!
22:19	phil_	yea, somebody thought adding the same thing twice to a set might be an indication of a bug
22:19	phil_	i guess
22:19	brehaut	certainly for literals
22:20	brehaut	although more so for maps than sets
22:20	dnolen	,{1 2 1 2}
22:20	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: 1>
22:20	TimMc	The semantics of (apply hash-set [x y z]) should be precisely identical to (into (hash-set) [x y z]).
22:20	jeremyheiler	phil_: the exception only goes off if the element failed to be added
22:20	brehaut	dnolen: i think (1 2, 1 3) is a better example
22:21	phil_	are defrecords hashmaps?
22:21	TimMc	My first thought was, "Oh, someone is trying to be clever and use the provided collection directly, and is checking it first to make sure it is safe." But that's not true, it's all conses under the surface.
22:22	dnolen	phil_: not quite, you have optimized access of declared keys, an internal extension map for those that aren't
22:23	brehaut	phil_: map? says yes
22:23	brehaut	well, it says they are maps, but not necessarily hash maps
22:23	tmciver	,#{[1 2] (1 2)}
22:23	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Duplicate key: (1 2)>
22:24	tmciver	Hmm, page 94 of JoC shows that to work.
22:24	phil_	any cljs specific differences?
22:24	brehaut	tmciver: that are in the same equality partition, so it shouldnt
22:25	brehaut	tmciver: but you are right that it does show that
22:25	tmciver	"Given two elements evaluating as equal, a set will contain only one, independent of concrete types."
22:25	tmciver	brehaut: it shouldn't what, fail?
22:25	brehaut	tmciver: joy of clojure is wrong
22:26	tmciver	But it's right here in black and white!
22:26	brehaut	it probably slipped through from an older clojure where the reader didnt check keys
22:26	TimMc	~guards
22:26	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
22:26	TimMc	argh, bad timing
22:26	brehaut	1.1 i believe
22:26	tmciver	slow connection? ;)
22:27	tmciver	I agree with TimMc, it seems like it shouldn't throw.
22:27	tmciver	(to me)
22:27	brehaut	sets at runtime shouldnt, but set literals, the ones that are baked into your source should IMO
22:27	brehaut	imagine you have
22:28	brehaut	#{1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 … 1}
22:28	brehaut	later you realise you shouldnt have 1
22:28	brehaut	so you remove it from the end of the set
22:28	brehaut	not realising its there at that start too
22:28	brehaut	thats just become an annoying bug that could have been avoided
22:29	dnolen	phil_: not beyond the slower performance of extending with non-specified keys
22:30	dgrnbrg	Where can I find a tutorial explaining how to use tests with leiningen? I seem to be doing things wrong in a very basic way.
22:30	phil_	dnolen: so the extension map is a hashmap and theres some other, more optimized map for declared keys?
22:31	amalloy	"should" is a pretty strong word in this context, brehaut. i'd phrase it more like "given my cursory exploration of the topic, i'd be happier if ___". if sets behave the other way, the bugs that sneak in aren't eliminated; they're just replaced by different ones
22:31	dnolen	phil_: no map, the host type
22:32	amalloy	phil_: conceptually it's a more optimized map, yes: a java class with declared instance fields
22:32	phil_	dnolen: but there are no host types in cljs
22:33	dnolen	phil_: think a bit more about that :)
22:34	phil_	dnolen: well, everything is a hashmap in js
22:34	tmciver	brehaut: I think I agree with you. literals are called that for a reason, after all. The behavior that I was expecting is achieved with the set function.
22:34	phil_	dnolen: or do you mean the "optimized" hosttype is a js hashmap while the extension map is a cljs hashmap?
22:34	brehaut	phil_: everything is a hashmap with an associated constructor function
22:35	brehaut	phil_: if there were no types in js,then the instanceof operator would always evaluate to false
22:35	phil_	brehaut: yes, but why is the ctor optimizing access to the keys?
22:37	dnolen	phil_: if JS objects were really hashmaps, JS would still be dog slow.
22:37	phil_	i think i understand
22:38	dnolen	phil_: I think it's better to think of JS Objects like Self objects, you can create slots on the fly.
22:38	dnolen	phil_: the fact that JS Objects inherits slots from prototype makes the hashmap analogy even more weak
22:39	brehaut	phil_: if you can portion off ad hoc properties in a javascript object into their own object and leave a consistent set of properties for the main type (ie, like a record does) then you maintain the 'shape' that the runtime inferencer can see, so it doesnt need to keep generating underlying types
22:39	brehaut	(because generating new underlying types also throws guards onto slow paths and causes rejitting to occur)
22:40	phil_	so defrecord is creating a js prototype underneath?
22:40	dnolen	phil_: deftype/defrecord both create constructors functions
22:41	dnolen	phil_: when you extend a type/record to a protocol, this is done via the constructor fn's prototype property
22:41	phil_	dnolen: ok, this clarifies things
22:43	dgrnbrg	Is there a function to check if 2 seqs are equal, or do I do a map/reduce?
22:43	dnolen	dgrnbrg: just use =
22:43	dgrnbrg	that'll work for seqs
22:43	dnolen	,(= '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
22:43	dgrnbrg	?
22:43	clojurebot	true
22:43	dgrnbrg	,(= '(1 2 3) [1 2 3])
22:43	clojurebot	true
22:43	dgrnbrg	oh
22:44	adam__	has anyone seen, https://github.com/globulon/sicp-in-clojure ?
22:44	adam__	i was wondering if it maps to SICP well, or if its imcomplete
22:45	dnolen	adam__: I've said it once and I'll say it again. I love SICP. It's a terrible way to learn Clojure.
22:45	adam__	okay, I have some experience with clojure, and noticed clojure does a lot of the things that SICP teaches
22:45	adam__	like lazy sequences
22:46	adam__	thanks
22:55	JanxSpirit	hey I imagine you guys are familiar with 4clojure?
22:55	JanxSpirit	I'm doing this one: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/21#prob-title
22:56	JanxSpirit	I came up with a function that does it
22:56	JanxSpirit	but I'm just not sure what the problem wants in terms of input
22:56	JanxSpirit	it won't let me do a (defn ...)
22:57	tmciver	JanxSpirit: you can do a (fn [] ... or a #() instead.
22:57	JanxSpirit	OK - I probably need to go look this up but what's the difference fn/defn?
22:58	tmciver	defn is a macro that def's a var, which you can't do in the 4clojure solutions
22:58	tmciver	fn returns a funtion object which can be called directly.
22:59	JanxSpirit	hmm...OK - thanks!
22:59	tmciver	,(doc defn)
22:59	clojurebot	"([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + ...]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with any doc-string or attrs added to the var metadata"
22:59	tmciver	sure
23:01	brehaut	(comp first (partial apply drop) (comp reverse vector))
23:01	brehaut	worst nth ever
23:01	brehaut	(comp first (partial apply drop) rseq vector) ; slightly better
23:05	tmciver	brehaut: ha! you haven't seen my solution!
23:05	brehaut	,((comp first (partial apply drop) (juxt second first) vector) [:a :b :c :d :e] 3)
23:05	clojurebot	:d
23:05	brehaut	thats the winning solution there
23:05	brehaut	tmciver: i have not :)
23:06	tmciver	it's better that way.
23:06	brehaut	everything is better with juxt ;)
23:09	phil_	,((comp first (partial apply drop) (juxt second first) vector) [:a :b :c :P :e] 3)
23:09	clojurebot	:P
23:09	tmciver	That's a cool solition. It's taken me this long to understand it.
23:09	tmciver	s/solition/solution
23:09	brehaut	its the too much haskell coolaid solution
23:09	tmciver	ha!
23:10	brehaut	(which is to say i know enough haskell to be dangerous but not enough to be useful)
23:10	adam__	yeah, i learned enough haskell to be able to understand books on functional programming written using haskell
23:11	brehaut	that amount is worth the effort
23:11	adam__	there is a lot of great material written on FP that uses haskell from a pretty large academic community
23:12	adam__	not all of it applies though, but a lot does
23:12	phil_	yea but they lose me when they start using transformers on monad transformers :)
23:12	brehaut	haha
23:12	brehaut	monad transformers are much easier to grasp in clojure
23:12	adam__	ha, learning monads is on my news years resolution list
23:12	brehaut	less type system syntax and magic to wrap your head around
23:13	adam__	i will tackle concurrency first, then go into monads
23:14	phil_	ive looked at clojure monads only superficially, but i have a gut feeling ill have t o adjust to working with monads without explicit types
23:14	phil_	(not that ive done so much with monads)
23:14	JanxSpirit	what languages do most Clojure users come from?
23:15	adam__	wasn't there a survey going around a couple weeks ago?
23:18	dnolen	http://cemerick.com/2011/07/11/results-of-the-2011-state-of-clojure-survey/
23:18	dnolen	last survey - mostly Java / Python / Ruby
23:18	adam__	i think its a good thing that most people are coming from imperative langauges
23:19	adam__	no way clojure could bloom if it stayed in the lisp community
23:19	fbru02_	hey all ! how do i do a get-in to look for a key but i don't know the intermidiate keys to get there ?
23:19	dnolen	adam__: most people in the older lisp communities either don't care or are hostile
23:19	pdk	lisp world can only grow so much from within itself
23:20	pdk	also cl guys tend to hate clojure
23:20	JanxSpirit	really? old school Lispers don't like Clojure?
23:20	phil_	didnt think so much java programmers are so open minded tbh :)
23:20	dnolen	but cl guys tend to hate everyone even cl people
23:20	JanxSpirit	I come from Java/Scala
23:20	JanxSpirit	my first Lisp and it's very interesting - good exercise for the brain :)
23:21	adam__	yeah, it really has opened my mind to what it is I am doing when I write a program
23:21	phil_	JanxSpirit: wait till you come to haskell, THEN youll have an excercise for your brain :)
23:22	JanxSpirit	I read a chapter or so of my Haskell book, but it was pretty intimidating to jump into
23:22	adam__	in Haskell, implemeting state can be a phd level topic
23:22	JanxSpirit	got Clojure doing some things right out of the gate which has been fun
23:23	phil_	adam__: yea, you cant really do anything in haskell besides small 3 liner teasers without having understood monads at the very least
23:23	schleyfox	I did a lot of stuff in erlang, Clojure is nice because compiling and starting code using a few dependencies isn't a week long adventure during which I feel like the Swedish Alexander Graham Bell
23:23	brehaut	i disagree http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Simple_unix_tools
23:24	phil_	schleyfox: rly? i found erlang very easy to set up and jump into
23:24	schleyfox	phil_: oh it is. then try to use a couple libs outside of the standard distribution
23:24	fbru02_	related : what's the best way to walk over a hash?
23:25	jeremyheiler	fbru02_: What do you need to look at?
23:25	phil_	schleyfox: i was only using mochiweb and it wasnt such a problem to set up but cant talk about more complex project setups
23:26	schleyfox	yeah, and rebar has helped a lot
23:26	phil_	yea rebar was awesome
23:26	fbru02_	jeremyheiler: i have a deep nested hash and need to find a specific key that should be at the any of those sub-hashes of any given depth
23:26	schleyfox	but compared to leiningen or anything of that nature, it's basically the worst
23:27	metajack	erlang works the same as python and ruby. there's just a path to dependent libraries.
23:27	phil_	schleyfox: yea ive been very pleasantly surprised by clojures eco system
23:27	metajack	all rebar does it set it up in a nice default way and fetch the dependencies based on git urls
23:28	metajack	in a way, clojure seems weird to me because it deals with build artifacts as dependencies. haven't really dealt with that since i spent most of my time in C
23:29	schleyfox	metajack: yeah, I mean, it's not too bad, but it just always bites me when I try and distribute applications to servers and such
23:29	metajack	if you use releases, it's kind of like an expanded uberjar.
23:29	metajack	rebar now makes that easy, but otherwise it can be a pain, sure
23:29	metajack	even easier than java, since erlang releases include the entire runtime.
23:29	schleyfox	yeah, I mean I stopped doing much erlang about the time rebar started to actually get decent
23:30	metajack	riak is a good example of releasable erlang code. you just unzip and type riak start. no muss no fuss.
23:31	schleyfox	yeah, I agree
23:32	adam__	Erlang looks pretty interesting, but Clojure STM is alot better for me than the actor model
23:33	schleyfox	I feel like if erlang just had a bigger ecosystem, it would just be awesome
23:35	metajack	erlang could use data structure literals like clojure has :)
23:35	schleyfox	erlang could use a lot of syntactic/modernization type things that clojure has
23:37	phil_	adam__: but clojure STM aint distributed
23:38	phil_	there is a lib though
23:38	dnolen	damn I love logic programming
23:38	dnolen	https://gist.github.com/1667847
23:38	phil_	https://github.com/technomancy/die-roboter
23:38	icylisper	schleyfox: There is a nascent project on an Erlang-Clojure bridge using Chas Emerick's nREPL protocol. https://github.com/icylisper/isthmus
23:39	schleyfox	icylisper: nice
23:39	schleyfox	I think the extent of my clojure-erlang bridging though these days will be reading and writing to riak
23:40	adam__	does anyone here have experience on using clojure's concurreny along with sun grid engine ?
23:43	nighty^	pyr! ping
23:48	brehaut	re:distributed stm http://avout.io/
23:48	brehaut	adam__, phil_: ^
23:49	phil_	brehaut: this looks very interesting, bookmarking
23:49	adam__	brehaut, so this would allow me to distribute concurrent jobs across cluster nodes?
23:50	brehaut	adam__: i dont know the details sorry
23:50	adam__	thanks for showing me, i'll have to read more into it!
23:50	metajack	teh think relevance podcast has an interview with the author of avout
23:50	brehaut	avout is quite new
23:50	metajack	you might start there
23:50	brehaut	metajack: good point
23:59	jeremyheiler	fbru02_: some questions: is the key in the nested structure more than once? is the value of the key another map?