#clojure – 2011-12-19

2011-12-19

03:19	wei_	has anyone experienced a java.lang.OutOfMemoryError: Java heap space when trying to start a browser repl using (cljs.repl/repl (cljs.repl.browser/repl-env)) ?
03:19	wei_	also doing this through nailgun so I'm not sure if that's the issue
03:45	accel	is there a clojure library that provides a gui repl? i.e. something like "java clojure.main", but wrapped inside some gui elements
03:54	accel	Is there a standard clojure lirary for pattern matching (or the lisp match macro) ?
03:56	pyr	i think you're looking for core.match
03:57	accel	yep just found https://github.com/clojure/core.match
03:57	accel	and reading its docs
03:57	accel	examples are nice
04:08	kral	namaste
04:22	Blkt	good morning everyone
04:23	cmdrdats	good morning :)
04:32	Blkt	:D
04:33	Scriptor	morning!
05:14	accel	is there a way in the clojure repl to get documentation. i.e. i wnt to type something like "? map" in the clojure repl; and get the function arguments + short description of how each arg is used
05:14	kasper	(doc map)
05:14	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & ...]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
05:14	accel	(inc kasper)
05:15	accel	ha! map is lazy? nice
05:15	accel	oh shit; i need side effects
05:15	accel	how do I force lazy args ?
05:15	Vinzent	dorun\doall
05:15	Vinzent	or just use doseq
05:16	accel	clojure.core/dorun
05:16	accel	([coll] [n coll])
05:16	accel	why does this function have two args, i..e [coll] [n coll]
05:16	accel	rather than just [coll] ?
05:16	Vinzent	(doc dorun)
05:16	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."
05:17	accel	It is not obvious to me from the documentation what the 2nd argument does.
05:17	Vinzent	accel, I don't know, but probably it forces only first n elems of the coll
05:18	kasper	(source dorun)
05:18	kasper	accel: will give you the source
05:18	accel	holy shit
05:18	accel	mind blonw
05:18	accel	I can't even spell correctly after taht.
05:19	accel	Is there a list of cool functions in the repl I should become familiar with besides load-file, doc, and source ?
05:21	kasper	accel: dont know really
05:22	Vinzent	maybe bean can be helpful sometimes... Also, there was very handy fn in the old contrib that prints all methods and fields of the given class
05:24	accel	what is the point of the "chunk-buffer) in (source range) ?
05:28	accel	is there a way in clojure.main to kill the last command, w/o killing the repl? For example, I load up clojure.main, I type in (range) -- now, I just want to kill the last command, but not the entire repl.
05:31	Vinzent	in emacs it's C-c C-c
05:32	accel	hmm; perhaps it is time I read up on vim-gorilla
05:33	antares__	hi. I have a problem: I am trying to implement an interface and then pass Class of resulting class around to Quartz. Both proxy and reify result in exceptions that lead me to believe that Quartz cannot instantiate my class (it uses Class#newInstance). defrecord with custom methods does work (but does not let me capture context). What I may be missing?
05:33	accel	Is Quartz Objective-C or java?
05:33	antares__	Java, the scheduler library
05:45	accel	Is there any relation between IPersistentList and ISeq?
05:55	raek	antares__: iirc, proxies have one shared class per "signature" (base class and interfaces)
05:56	raek	and every call to proxy returns an instance of that class
05:56	antares__	raek: that's fine with me, I can use (class …). What about constructor visibility?
05:57	raek	I think the constructor for the proxy class is something internal to the proxy feature of java
05:57	raek	antares__: when you need a named class you generally ned to use gen-class
05:58	cemerick	Or deftype or defrecord.
05:59	raek	antares__: if your usecase is simple enough, maybe you could use cron4j. it is very easy to use from Clojure
06:00	antares__	raek: well, Quartz has everything I need and I have a library that makes it easy to use from Clojure, I just cannot figure out this last step :/
06:01	antares__	I guess I will go with defrecord for now
06:01	raek	antares__: example with cron4j: https://gist.github.com/1496650
06:02	antares__	raek: I need "execute this until date X" kind of feature which cron4j probably does not have
06:02	antares__	raek: thanks for the help either way!
06:36	accel	alright
06:36	accel	I now need to thread state through a bunch of clojure functions.
06:36	accel	What is a good example of monads inclojure?
06:38	Vinzent	accel, https://github.com/clojure/algo.monads
06:58	AWizzArd	accel: The lib “Pallet” is now also using Monads. In the code repo you can find pratical use cases: https://github.com/pallet/pallet/blob/develop/src/pallet/monad.clj
07:07	accel	Vinzent , AWizzArd : thanks
07:08	lnostdal	is "error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 0" happening for you guys? this pops up from time to time here
07:10	Vinzent	yes
07:19	lnostdal	..the restarts needed because of it really ruins any collaboration going on with other devs.. i'm not using slime from git or anything, hmm
07:27	Vinzent	for me it pops up only in a few cases, very rare
07:28	Vinzent	I do use slime from git, so maybe you should try it too
07:30	lnostdal	ok, it happens only in rare cases here too .. seemingly at random; or perhaps when my code generates "weird exceptions" -- kind of hard to tell
07:31	Vinzent	yeah, same symptoms
07:32	Vinzent	looks like such exceptions' stacktrace is nil
07:32	raek	lnostdal: what is your slime-net-coding-system set to?
07:33	raek	if you don't use clojure-jack-in, you need to set it to utf-8-unix manually
07:33	lnostdal	it is utf-8-unix, raek
07:33	raek	good.
08:30	duck1123	If I want to update my copy of the Closure Library for use with clojurescript, do I just need to replace ./closure/library in the clojurescript project, or are there other considerations I need to take into account?
08:32	duck1123	I want to make use of goog.new.Webfinger it looks like it's now part of the released library, but the goog-jar artifact and the one with clojurescript are behind
09:01	lnostdal	,(:%answer {:%answer 42})
09:01	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
09:02	lnostdal
09:02	lnostdal	hum, is combining : and % like that not valid?
09:02	lnostdal	,:%test
09:02	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Invalid token: :>
09:03	lnostdal	,:test
09:03	clojurebot	:test
09:04	duck1123	,(keyword "%answer")
09:04	clojurebot	:%answer
09:04	duck1123	although, if you can't type it out, it's a good indication that you shouldn't be using it as a keyword
09:05	lnostdal	i'm curious why though
09:05	lnostdal	it doesn't matter much of course; there are other characters i can use here
09:50	cmdrdats	O.o clojurebot evaluates clojure code in the channel?
09:50	cmdrdats	that's awesome :D
09:50	elderling	seconded.
09:51	cmdrdats	i'm guessing there's some kind of limitations though?
09:52	elderling	I think it uses clojail. Can anyone confirm?
09:55	Vinzent	as far as I know it's written by Raynes
09:57	cmdrdats	nice - that's useful to know about :)
10:00	joegallo	you're confusing clojurebot and lazybot
10:00	joegallo	i think
10:01	elderling	Agreed.
10:01	elderling	clojail is the library used by lazybot.
10:01	elderling	https://github.com/flatland/clojail
10:03	TimMc	lnostdal: Symbols and keywords have a restricted character set. Some characters will work that are not formally supported, but you shouldn't use them.
10:03	TimMc	I guess just stay away from any ASCII that isn't explicitly mentioned in http://clojure.org/reader -- I think other Unicode is fine.
10:39	fdaoud	wow, I didn't know there were these online "try<language>" for every language that wants respect :)
10:43	choffstein	Hey all. Quick question: is there a way to get leiningen to pull a dependency from a private github repo? If not, does anyone know a place that does private maven repo hosting?
10:44	dmansen	if you clone the repo and run lein install, it should get installed to your local maven repo (in ~/.m2
10:44	dmansen	and then other projects should pick it up
10:45	raek_	choffstein: you can push your private version of a library (assuming it's an open source lib) to clojars by changing the group name to org.clojars.<username>
10:45	choffstein	raek_: Okay, thanks
10:46	choffstein	Well, actually, no, that doesn't help me. It's not opensource :D
10:46	raek_	the version you push will be public, though
10:47	choffstein	Yeah. Looks like cemerick has an article about (ab)using github as a maven repo. I might try that
10:47	raek_	choffstein: if you need to collaborate with other, it's probably best to set up a private maven repo
10:47	choffstein	raek_: No need to collab -- just need somewhere that heroku can pull the deps from
10:49	raek_	hrm...
10:49	choffstein	Yeah. I'm going to try this bastardisation of github. If that doesn't work, I'll try a more robust solution
11:33	choffstein	cemerick: you around?
11:55	choffstein	anyone have any success using leiningen to deploy to a local maven repo?
11:56	licenser	choffstein: yap
11:56	licenser	did a lein install and it worked fine
11:57	choffstein	licenser: Anyway I can take a peak at the relevant config info? I'm having a devil of a time getting this to work
11:57	choffstein	sorry -- should have specified -- not just a lein install. Through lein deploy to another local maven repo
11:57	licenser	choffstein: you could but there is none, I just simply did lein install
11:58	licenser	ah play
11:58	licenser	ah okay, sorry can't help there
11:58	choffstein	no worries
12:15	choffstein	Anyone know how to get maven to work with absolute directories? I can only seem to get it to work with relative directories… e.g. "file:../my-repo vs "file:/Users/choffstein/dev/my-repo"
12:16	hiredman	you need more slashses at the start of file urls
12:16	hiredman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_URI_scheme
12:16	choffstein	idiot … idiot … idiot
12:17	choffstein	hmm. file:///Users/choffstein/dev/my-repo doesn't seem to work either
12:19	choffstein	Just kidding. User error.
12:27	krey	Hey, why is clojure struct obsolete and record the way to go?
12:27	krey	See Clojure Homepage @ StructMaps: Note: Most uses of StructMaps would now be better served by records.
12:29	krey	Tried to migrate my example application using memcached to records,... have problems with serializing/deserializing
12:29	krey	binding [print-dup true] << works to serialize the record. But it is not evaluated if I read it back from memcached
12:35	technomancy	choffstein: I have a thing
12:35	technomancy	in which you may be interested
12:35	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/s3-wagon-private
12:36	choffstein	technomancy: awesome. I'll take a look. Thanks
12:36	technomancy	lightly tested; very much interested in feedback
12:36	technomancy	it's based on an s3 deployer from spring, but theirs is hard-coded to be public
12:37	choffstein	I'll take a gander. my biggest issue is giving heroku access to the repo. init.clj doesn't float over, unfortunately.
12:37	technomancy	yeah, probably want to use environment variables for that
12:39	choffstein	I think so
12:40	krey	technomancy << wow, he is really there
12:41	Vinzent	krey, what do you mean? (-> (Foo. 1 2 3) pr-str read-string class) returns user.Foo here
12:41	technomancy	choffstein: working on getting better documentation for that whole story, but making sure it's well tested is a good first step
12:42	krey	I'm using spymemcached to store my k,v pairs
12:43	krey	(item-store (binding [print-dup true] (pr-str (entity))) << it looks like this
12:43	krey	After I look to my memcached instance the value is there...
12:43	krey	But I can't read it back to a record
12:45	choffstein	I hate when something seems like it works perfectly … but somehow you don't get the results you are looking for. lein deploy keeps telling me it is running successfully, but none of the files seem to be showing up where I expect them to.
12:46	technomancy	on s3?
12:46	Vinzent	krey, is it throws exception or something? what the string looks like?
12:46	krey	I can not connect to the computer where I stored the example...
12:47	krey	it looks like the default definition starting with # class { param map }
12:47	simard	is there a function to return a sequence after skipping n elements ?
12:48	krey	When I print it to stdout, the output is escaped, ... But when I enter it without escaping to the console it gets evaluated
12:48	krey	I get it back as a string,...
12:49	Vinzent	simard, ##(drop 3 (range 5))
12:49	choffstein	technomancy: nah, locally. also, I think I am just confused about how lein deps expects to find data compared to my maven repo. I deploy to a maven repo and get files like: gears-1.0.0-20111219.172346-1.pom, then lein deps says it is trying to get gears-1.0.0.pom and fails.
12:49	Vinzent	,(drop 3 (range 5)
12:49	krey	technomancy, what is the s3 wagon?
12:49	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:49	choffstein	I can't tell if lein is just pretty-printing debug info and cutting the cruft, or if I am deploying to my maven repo wrong
12:49	simard	Vinzent: drop, thank you
12:50	krey	A place to store versions of the software in a S3 bucket?
12:50	technomancy	choffstein: the numbers after the 1.0.0 mean it's a snapshot version
12:50	mrb_bk	Design question: If I'm working on a binary data parser, and I want to store and refer to certain pairs of byte lengths and contents by name, would records be a good fit?
12:50	technomancy	it means you haven't deployed 1.0.0 but 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
12:50	choffstein	technomancy: I am trying to do a snapshot version though. My deps is 1.0.0-SNAPSHOT
12:51	mrb_bk	i.e. I want to have a [5 :magicnumber '(0 0 0 0 1)'] data structure that i can refer to by the name :magicnumber
12:51	technomancy	choffstein: you said it's trying to get gears-1.0.0.pom?
12:52	choffstein	that's because I am stupid and can't type. gears-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT.pom is what I meant.
12:52	choffstein	Which should work, right?
12:53	choffstein	Ohhh … I bet it is failing because heroku doesn't have my ssh key. doh
12:54	technomancy	choffstein: feel free to take it to /msg if you're having trouble
12:54	Vinzent	krey, well I don't know what to say without knowing exception that has been thrown
12:54	choffstein	yeah, this isn't general banter. my bad. just venting. sorry
12:55	technomancy	heh; no worries
12:55	krey	Vinzent: I'll be back here when I've access to the sourcecode
12:55	krey	No exception is beeing thrown
12:56	krey	the problem is, that the data comes back as string, and I can not find a way to make it behave like data
12:58	Vinzent	krey, ah! use read-string, as I've showed earlier
12:59	dmansen	silly question, but...how is "leiningen" pronouced?
12:59	krey	awhhhh,... damn haven't seen it cause I've excepted it to take a stream or something as argument
13:00	technomancy	dmansen: 'laɪnɪŋən
13:00	technomancy	(LINE-ing-en)
13:00	dmansen	aha! thanks
13:00	technomancy	if you've seen the movie "The Naked Jungle", they get it wrong.
13:01	technomancy	dmansen: would it be possible to just bind color-support? rather than storing it in a reference type?
13:02	Vinzent	hm, lein is also pronounced as LINE?
13:02	technomancy	or do we have threading issues?
13:02	technomancy	Vinzent: yeah
13:02	dmansen	technomancy: will the exception function always be called within the same thread?
13:02	technomancy	dmansen: I was hoping you'd know. =)
13:03	dmansen	i'm a bit fuzzy on how many / what threads are in swank
13:03	dmansen	ahaha
13:03	technomancy	I bet hugoduncan would know.
13:03	krey	What do you think about defrecord2 ?
13:04	technomancy	dmansen: I'll give it a try
13:06	dmansen	technomancy: yeah, no point in using a ref if it isn't necessary
13:08	technomancy	dmansen: yeah, looks like that happens in a different thread
13:08	technomancy	I'll switch to using an atom instead
13:10	dmansen	technomancy: ah, makes more sense. i'm still getting a handle on when to use the different concurrency types
13:10	technomancy	dmansen: well to be fair the swank codebase is a terrible place to learn that
13:10	technomancy	considering most of it was written before atoms had been implemented
13:10	dmansen	ah! i see
13:11	dmansen	i'll refresh my memory tonight from joy of clojure
13:11	technomancy	also doesn't need to be dynamic
13:17	dmansen	technomancy: this is my first open source contribution ever, haha
13:17	dmansen	probably should have gone with something less ridiculous..
13:17	technomancy	not too shabby!
13:17	dmansen	ty!
13:17	simard	I have a function that builds a tree, in which there are lazy sequences. When I eval the expression in slime, there is no problem, but when I try to walk it with some function of a Protocol I defined, it says my function cannot take a lazy sequence for input. Where should I force the evaluation of the tree so that no lazy sequences remain ?
13:18	hiredman	technomancy: is there some mechanism to load lein hooks without having to put them in project.clj?
13:18	simard	by eval with slime, I mean slime's printer forces the evaluation.
13:18	technomancy	hiredman: you could load them from ~/.lein/init.clj
13:18	technomancy	you could also set :hooks to :auto to have it search the classpath, but that's slow
13:19	technomancy	simard: (doto my-seq str) will force every level of it
13:19	hiredman	so I could plugin install the hook, and then do (require 'lein.some.hook) in init.clj?
13:19	technomancy	hiredman: precisely
13:19	technomancy	hiredman: recommended if it's a convenience-type hook
13:20	samaaron	oh yeah clojurebot - spoil the announcement before it's made...
13:23	raek_	samaaron: "it says my function cannot take a lazy sequence for input" - why?
13:23	raek_	sorry, simard
13:25	simard	raek: No implementation of method: :output of protocol: #'kiwiz.core/Library-Printer found for class: clojure.lang.LazySeq
13:25	simard	this shouldn't happen anyway.
13:25	simard	wait :)
13:26	raek	if you're extending you protocol to clojure data, you should have an implementation for ISeq
13:26	raek	ISeq includes PersistentList and LazySeq
13:26	simard	oooh wait I found why.. no I didn't mean to do that.
13:27	simard	I did a (list (map ..) (map ..)) where I meant to do (concat (map ..) (map ..))
13:29	raek	is the "defonce-ness" of defmulti actually documented anywhere?
13:38	cemerick	choffstein: hi :-)
13:38	choffstein	cemerick: Hello! I was reading your lovely blog post about setting maven up on github and had a few questions. I left them as comments to the post.
13:53	amalloy	raek: i don't think so, unless you count "you can figure it out if you happen to read the source" as documentation
13:55	amalloy	simard: (str some-lazy-seq) doesn't force any levels at all, right? sounds more like pr-str
13:56	amalloy	hm, and i meant that one to go to technomancy
13:56	simard	good for me .. :)
13:56	technomancy	amalloy: aha, you are correct
13:57	cemerick	choffstein: you trailed off without asking your first question in your comment :-)
13:57	choffstein	cemerick: no, that's just my writing style ;)
13:57	choffstein	Hold on, I'll edit
13:58	technomancy	dmansen: I wonder if clj-stacktrace could be taught new patterns to colorize
13:58	dmansen	technomancy: how do you mean? and i'm sure that's possible
13:58	technomancy	right now swank frames are colored the same as your own program's, which isn't too helpful
14:00	dmansen	clj-stacktrace.repl is explicit in the docs about how it colors things
14:00	dmansen	so i'm sure i could fix that
14:00	technomancy	just deployed the colorization stuff to clojars
14:01	raek	amalloy: IIRC, (str some-lazy-seq) actually forces the outermost seq. the default implementation of .toString uses .hashCode, which forces the seq
14:01	amalloy	hah
14:01	amalloy	&(str (range))
14:02	technomancy	dmansen: actually hang on; I have some code to allow it to pass in frames to omit that I haven't pushed yet
14:02	technomancy	we could base the new colorization rules on that
14:02	amalloy	oh, lazybot isn't here anyway. not going to learn much from him
14:02	amalloy	,(str (range))
14:02	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
14:03	dmansen	technomancy: okay. it seems super easy to add in any case
14:05	raek	anyone know where I read about the Jira workflow? I remember having seen a nice flow diagram.
14:05	raek	duh. found it under Clojure Design -> JIRA usage proposal
14:15	TimMc	amalloy: What did happen to lazybot?
14:15	TimMc	&(print "I'm back!")
14:15	lazybot	⇒ I'm back!nil
14:15	TimMc	oh good
14:16	amalloy	TimMc: i dunno. some sysadmin-related thing that we're no good at, usually. Raynes restarted him
14:17	Raynes	Sometimes bad things happen to good bots.
14:17	amalloy	Raynes: put lazybot on heroku?
14:17	Raynes	No.
14:17	technomancy	getting shuffled around all the time would give him motion sickness.
14:18	amalloy	&(shuffle (range))
14:18	lazybot	Execution Timed Out!
14:20	TimMc	It would be cute to have a system load graph as a sparkline, like $load -> ___,-'\__
14:20	technomancy	TimMc: I would totally use that
14:21	technomancy	I've got a key bound to pop up a notification bubble with the load average numbers, but something visual would be way better
14:21	TimMc	I was thinking of one for the bot.
14:22	TimMc	For my desktop I just have a graph in gnome-panel.
14:22	technomancy	why should bots have all the fun?
14:22	technomancy	TimMc: yeah, but that wastes screen space when you're not interested in it
14:23	technomancy	nicer to have it bound to a key so you just see it on demand
14:23	TimMc	A few years ago I actually discovered a worm had infected my laptop when I noticed the graph was wonky.
14:23	technomancy	would be better to have a key binding to toggle the visibility of the panel, but considering the panel is going away in gnome 3 it's not worth investing the time in implementing such a thing.
14:24	TimMc	Ugh, GNOME 3... let us speak no more of it.
14:25	jhirn	I like conky for system metrics on the desktop
14:26	jhirn	little bit of LUA ftw.
14:26	tscheibl	TimMc: what's your problem with GNOME 3 .. respectively the GNOME Shell?
14:26	TimMc	tscheibl: I bought a laptop, not an iPad.
14:26	TimMc	It feels like I'm using a toy.
14:26	tscheibl	I appreciate the much cleaner UI
14:27	tscheibl	it took me a few hours to get used to it
14:27	tscheibl	.. and it definetely improved my workflow
14:27	technomancy	it looks nice, but they just stripped out everything I actually use in the panel
14:27	jhirn	yes, and the new panel is early beta at best.
14:27	tscheibl	..especially with a multimonitor setup
14:27	technomancy	it's a huge pain to get the system monitor plugged back in, you can't make it vertical, and you can't autohide it.
14:28	jhirn	but conky is so much better than system monitor.
14:28	technomancy	jhirn: isn't conky designed to run as a desktop background?
14:29	jhirn	yeah. I just switch to a seperate desktop if somethign is covering it.
14:29	technomancy	hm. I wouldn't want something that required a context switch like that.
14:29	jhirn	works for me since i don't use more than one
14:29	technomancy	the libnotify bubbles are perfect for that, but they're limited to text
14:29	technomancy	well, text plus a static icon anyway
14:29	jhirn	Most of the times I don't maximize my runnign apps. 1920 res
14:29	jhirn	so I can deal with 200px chopped off.
14:30	jhirn	especially if I want to know current drain of battery in mW.
14:32	tscheibl	I converted to running everything maximized now... thanks to the dynamic workspaces
14:33	tscheibl	Windows are bad anyway
14:33	jhirn	Emacs is the only thing that gets full screen, but that's transparent so conky shines though =)
14:33	tscheibl	..at least floating and overlapping ones
14:33	weavejester	technomancy: Do you know yet how lein 2.0 is going to handle project-specific plugins?
14:33	technomancy	tscheibl: did they ever add the ability to jump straight to workspace N, or is it still O(N) to get to a workspace?
14:34	tscheibl	you can add a plugin
14:34	technomancy	jhirn: doesn't that wreck the readability?
14:34	tscheibl	that gives you a selector in the upper panel
14:34	technomancy	tscheibl: with the mouse? =(
14:34	jhirn	technomancy: readability of emacs or what's underneath?
14:34	technomancy	jhirn: was thinking the former, but I guess it would mess up both.
14:34	jhirn	I use just a shade of transparency.
14:34	tscheibl	I believe there are shortcuts.. I will find out...
14:35	jhirn	I think I use 89/80 for active/inactive
14:37	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: fyi, latest swank-clojure 1.3.4-SNAPSHOT errors out on ansi-color-apply not being defined. If I do an M-x ansi-color-for-comint-mode-on, then I get very pretty colored stacktraces
14:37	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: ah, so something needs to be required first on the Emacs side?
14:37	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: yeah
14:38	technomancy	sorenmacbeth: hadn't occurred to me that there could be an emacs instance without ansi-color.el loaded. thanks for the heads-up.
14:38	tscheibl	technomancy: you can add that keyboard shortcuts in system-settings->keyboard->shortcuts->navigation
14:39	tscheibl	I've put them to alt-ctrl-1 2 3 4 ...
14:39	tscheibl	set them
14:39	technomancy	tscheibl: good to know. hopefully by the time gnome2 goes away entirely all these panel fixes that are currently manual will have been mainlined.
14:40	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: np. I added this to my init.el for now: (add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook 'ansi-color-for-comint-mode-on)
14:40	technomancy	weavejester: we have some plans. no concrete impl yet.
14:40	weavejester	technomancy: Ah, okay :)
14:41	technomancy	weavejester: the idea is to fold dev-deps into just another profile that's applied by default, but that means the deps will all be commingled, so lein can't look in a specific place for plugins
14:41	technomancy	so plugins will have to be in a separate list in project.clj
14:41	weavejester	technomancy: I think I might suggest to Mark that they use "lein deps" rather than "lein deps :no-dev" in Heroku for the time being.
14:41	tscheibl	technomancy: you can use these plugins http://intgat.tigress.co.uk/rmy/extensions/index.html to get almost the same look&feel as in gnome2
14:41	technomancy	weavejester: which is better anyway, since the current dev-deps complects stuff that runs in leiningen and stuff that runs in the project process.
14:41	weavejester	technomancy: I thought it might be something like that.
14:43	technomancy	weavejester: the majority of lein plugins are intended for development-time only; and some of them could even be considered harmful in production.
14:43	weavejester	technomancy: Hm, true...
14:43	technomancy	so it's unlikely to ever be the default on lein1, but it should be opt-in
14:43	weavejester	technomancy: I guess opting in on Heroku is just "heroku lein deps"
14:44	weavejester	technomancy: I guess I'll have to wait until lein 2.0 for it to be the default.
14:45	technomancy	yeah, this is exactly the kind of problem that comes from mixing dev-deps and plugins
14:45	technomancy	I'm surprised it didn't cause problems eariler
14:46	weavejester	Has any work been done on a Cake-style persistent JVM for Lein?
14:47	technomancy	been delegating that to jark
14:47	technomancy	they've started on it; I don't know if it's working yet.
14:47	technomancy	last I checked over the summer I couldn't get it to build.
14:47	weavejester	Does Jark support loading new deps?
14:48	cemerick	weavejester: new jars, yes, not deps yet
14:49	weavejester	cemerick: Ah, thanks
14:52	sorenmacbeth	technomancy: forgot to mention I am on emacs 24, so ansi-color.el isn't loaded by default there. also using starter-kit and the eshell, bindings, and lisp packages (thanks!)
14:52	technomancy	cool =)
14:54	weavejester	Time to see if these new ATI drivers will let me run Gnome 3... or screw up my computer :)
14:59	brehaut	weavejester: popular opinion suggests that running gnome 3 is screwing up your computer
15:00	Raynes	brehaut: Popular opinion suggests that Vim is tainting your mind.
15:00	francium	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32/compare.php?lang=clojure
15:00	brehaut	Raynes: as long as it also includes emacs in that category, its right ;)
15:00	francium	^seems like you write the same amount of java code as clojure code?
15:00	brehaut	francium: the shootout isnt a very good measure of anything except for shootout code
15:00	technomancy	francium: alioth benchmarks are nearly worthless
15:01	Raynes	francium: I imagine that that is on purpose. To get Java-like speed you tend to want to write Java-like code.
15:01	Raynes	technomancy: Do you actually use slamhound for anything?
15:02	francium	why are the benchmarks worthless?
15:02	francium	i'm just trying to get a rough idea of what would be a good lang to use for a new project
15:02	brehaut	is that a rhetorical question?
15:02	francium	no
15:03	technomancy	Raynes: I'm still kinda blocked on two things: pretty-printing the ns form, and supporting non-obvious :require :as alias names
15:03	francium	i'm just trying to get a rough idea of code written /speed
15:03	amalloy	francium: because everyone uses the same C libs, and because who really cares about performance on benchmarks like these when you spend most of your time thinking?
15:03	Somelauw	,(get '(()) 0)
15:03	clojurebot	nil
15:03	Somelauw	Shouldn't that be ()?
15:03	amalloy	no
15:03	amalloy	lists are not random-access
15:04	ibdknox	(get ['()] 0)
15:04	ibdknox	,(get ['()] 0)
15:04	clojurebot	()
15:04	technomancy	Raynes: someone mentioned taking a shot at fixing the ns pretty-printer yesterday, but I forget their nick
15:04	Raynes	ibdknox: YOU!
15:04	Somelauw	Oh, get doesn't work at all on sequences.
15:05	Somelauw	Then why not make it throw an error or something?
15:06	ibdknox	,(doc get)
15:06	clojurebot	"([map key] [map key not-found]); Returns the value mapped to key, not-found or nil if key not present."
15:08	TimMc	&(indexed? (range))
15:08	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: indexed? in this context
15:08	hiredman	technomancy: that would be neat, I've been fiddling a little bit with rewriting ns forms to conform to "sonian style" (alphabetizing, etc)
15:08	TimMc	Hmm, what am I looking for?
15:08	hiredman	and pretty printing the form is the hardest bit
15:09	TimMc	&(associative? (range))
15:09	lazybot	⇒ false
15:09	hiredman	steve wants a tool to refactor :use :only to :require :as
15:09	TimMc	Somelauw: get only works on associative data structures. I guess it really should throw there.
15:10	TimMc	,(println "hiredman: Is alphabetizing imports done to make merges easier?")
15:10	clojurebot	hiredman: Is alphabetizing imports done to make merges easier?
15:11	Somelauw	Thanks, I get that it works on at least Map and Vector.
15:11	TimMc	Somelauw: You'll want nth on seqs, I think.
15:12	Somelauw	TimMc: Yes, that is right.
16:06	weavejester	I've discovered that proprietary ATI drivers for Linux still suck.
16:08	cemerick	video cards have drivers? ;-)
16:10	raek	this is a very compelling reason to get a Mac...
16:12	Scriptor	macs have video cards? :p
16:13	Raynes	No. They ship the macs with an employee manually lighting pixels behind the screen.
16:13	cemerick	I dunno, there's some stuff in there that makes these glass panels light up.
16:14	cemerick	There was some hair on my keyboard this morning; I'm not sure if it was from my cat, or the squirrels in the computer pumping signals out the monitor cable.
16:14	Raynes	cemerick: I read that as "There was some noir on my keyboard this morning;"
16:15	tscheibl	and some korma...
16:15	cemerick	ibdknox needs to stay away from my keyboard from now on.
16:16	tscheibl	does anyone have any insight on what's going on with clojureql? the clojureql.org website went down yesterday I believe
16:17	cemerick	hrm, that's no good.
16:17	Raynes	afaik, it is still being worked on.
16:17	cemerick	domain expired on 12/14!
16:18	ibdknox	cemerick: I was just installing some software on there ...
16:18	tscheibl	I'm using it quite heavily at the moment... with my own extensions which I will eventually push to a new fork...
16:18	mcrittenden	absolute clojure newbie here, wondering how I can create a list from within a doseq call, so each time, a new item is added to the list. do I use (conj list-name item)?
16:19	tscheibl	mcrittenden: use reduce
16:19	TimMc	or map
16:19	ibdknox	mcrittenden: or take a look at for, the result of each iteration of the list will go into a seq
16:19	TimMc	mcrittenden: Are you just trying to produce a new list based on some existing list?
16:19	ibdknox	lol
16:19	mcrittenden	awesome, thanks all
16:20	TimMc	mcrittenden: conj returns the new collection, it doesn't alter an existing one.
16:20	mcrittenden	TimMc: yes, I'm creating a list of directories within a specific directory, so this is what I have so far https://gist.github.com/1498926
16:20	mcrittenden	ah
16:20	mcrittenden	I'll take a look at reduce vs. map vs. for
16:21	Raynes	Yeah, that's definitely an imperative solution you're going for there. You don't do that in Clojure.
16:21	TimMc	mcrittenden: You can write that with a filter and a map.
16:21	mcrittenden	awesome. yeah this is my first experience w/ FP, just started an hour ago :D
16:21	mcrittenden	thanks guys
16:21	TimMc	(map #(.getName %) (filter #(.isDirectory %) (.listFiles d)))
16:21	Raynes	mcrittenden: It's totally cool. We're here to help.
16:22	TimMc	mcrittenden: ^
16:22	ibdknox	I'm here to complain, actually. :D
16:22	raek	mcrittenden: this is another solution: (for [f (.listFiles d), :when (.isDirectory f)] f)
16:22	mcrittenden	any info on what the # and % do there, TimMc?
16:23	ibdknox	(inc raek)
16:23	lazybot	⇒ 13
16:23	mcrittenden	ah nice raek
16:23	TimMc	mcrittenden: Sure. #(...) is reader syntax for an anonymous inline function.
16:23	Raynes	#(foo) = (fn [] (foo)), #(foo % %2) = (fn [x y] (foo x y))
16:23	TimMc	raek: oooh, I like that
16:23	Raynes	It's a shortcut for anonymous functions.
16:23	raek	mcrittenden: ah, you're the guy whose question I just answered on stackoverflow... :-)
16:23	tscheibl	ibdknox: you killed clojureql... ;)
16:23	brehaut	,'#(inc %)
16:23	mcrittenden	yup raek, that's me :)
16:23	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__27#] (inc p1__27#))
16:23	ibdknox	tscheibl: whoops
16:24	mcrittenden	small (clojure) world I guess
16:24	ibdknox	knocked it clean off the internet :p
16:24	krey	Hey ;) read-string worked
16:24	Raynes	It tends to do that.
16:25	krey	It works now. I'm really happy with clojure
16:26	raek	mcrittenden: also, think of 'def' as way to define global constants. you should not normally alter the value of a var (what def creates) at runtime
16:26	brehaut	krey: do you know about read-evai ?
16:26	krey	Does anyone know how to get the value off clj-time (now) formatted ? It tells me that it can not be casted to a string if I try to. Maybe (now) is the wrong thing
16:26	TimMc	&(:a (read-string (pr-str {:a [3 4 'b]})))
16:26	lazybot	⇒ [3 4 b]
16:26	krey	no brehaut , never heard about it
16:27	brehaut	(doc read-eval)
16:27	clojurebot	"; When set to logical false, the EvalReader (#=(...)) is disabled in the read/load in the thread-local binding. Example: (binding [read-eval false] (read-string \"#=(eval (def x 3))\")) Defaults to true"
16:27	tscheibl	I was about learning a new programming language each year.. last year it was scala... now it's clojure... but I don't want to move away from clojure any more...
16:27	TimMc	,(read-string "#=(+ 1 2)")
16:27	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.>
16:27	dmansen	tscheibl: i used to like scala, until i moved to clojure and noticed it has all the goodness of scala at a tiny fraction of the size...
16:27	TimMc	tscheibl: Is the full year up?
16:27	tscheibl	..yep... scala was too much syntax
16:28	brehaut	krey: from memory you want unparse
16:28	krey	too much syntax ack
16:28	dmansen	tscheibl: i tried many times to write scala code. but every time i just got hung up on the tooling
16:28	tscheibl	TimMc: yeah on 31. of Dec ;)
16:28	dmansen	i could never get anything done
16:28	devinus_	technomancy: have you had a chance to see https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/88 ?
16:29	tscheibl	dmansen: I even did spring-osgi with scala on spring dm-server...
16:29	dmansen	damn
16:29	krey	yes brehaut , is there a way to work without the binding instruction when serializing records? >> (binding [print-dup true] (prn-str data))
16:29	tscheibl	.. but got bitten by a nasty annotation bug when using enums
16:30	raek	mcrittenden: https://gist.github.com/1498952
16:30	tscheibl	.. which they still havent't fixed
16:30	mcrittenden	raek awesome! i was almost there
16:30	brehaut	krey: are you still talking about clj-time data?
16:30	mcrittenden	thanks a ton
16:31	krey	brehaut: I want to get a timestamp of the current time to assign it in my record
16:31	krey	I save the record to memcached, the field is called "created"
16:31	brehaut	krey: because clj-time doesnt use records. It is built on JodaTime. you want to use clj-time.format/unparse if you want it as a string
16:32	brehaut	krey: see also https://github.com/seancorfield/clj-time/blob/master/src/clj_time/format.clj#L143-147
16:33	brehaut	krey: calling clj-time.format/show-formatters in your repl will list all the available built in formats. if none match what you want, then you can define your own too
16:33	krey	okay... can you suggest one?
16:33	mcrittenden	raek what's up with that :when? I would have never discovered that, with the colon, and can't find docs on it
16:33	raek	mcrittenden: another beginner advice: try to write your functions so that they only return whatever they compute and so that they don't do any side-effects (setting variables, etc)
16:33	brehaut	krey: no because that depends on your needs
16:33	krey	;)
16:34	ibdknox	amalloy: jfw = juxt for the win.
16:34	ibdknox	use it wisely.
16:34	amalloy	ibdknox: C-f juxt - no results?
16:35	raek	mcrittenden: 'for' is a relatively complex macro, but it allows you to write very succint code. when you are learning the language maybe it's better to stick with the underlying 'map' and 'filter' functions
16:35	mcrittenden	raek I know :whatever is a keyword, but I thought that was mostly for use in map keys
16:35	ibdknox	amalloy: twas a side conversation, thought you might enjoy the use of this acronym
16:35	mcrittenden	raek ok, thanks
16:36	raek	mcrittenden: yes, that is the most common usage. you can also use it for keyword arguments to functions (or macros)
16:36	mcrittenden	gotcha
16:36	mcrittenden	interesting stuff
16:36	krey	clojurestack.core=> clj-time.format/show-formatters #<format$show_formatters clj_time.format$show_formatters@19c7c21> mhhh
16:37	tscheibl	mcrittenden: I'm doing clojure for about a year now and have never needed 'for'
16:37	ibdknox	tscheibl: for is fantastic
16:37	dmansen	tscheibl: i used for the other day for a process that generated a large tree of results that needed to be collected
16:37	ibdknox	in several cases for leads to much more readable code than (map ...) would
16:38	dmansen	otherwise, i normally would just use map / filter
16:38	tscheibl	that's what I do... and a good deal of reduce
16:39	kotarak	ibdknox: Hi. Does korma have to depend on log4j and ship with a log4j confirugation?
16:39	technomancy	hiredman: slamhound already does a lot of that ns stuff
16:39	technomancy	the hard part is figuring out where the line breaks go
16:39	amalloy	for is just so much more concise for manymany kinds of sequence transformation
16:40	amalloy	i'm actually in the middle of my very first time using the :while clause in for. exciting times
16:40	hiredman	technomancy: right, that's where I stopped to think about it, and haven't continued
16:40	dmansen	for is just the list monad, yes?
16:40	ibdknox	kotarak: does it have to, no
16:40	technomancy	an automated tool to go from :use :only to :require :as would be slick.
16:40	brehaut	dmansen: yes
16:40	ibdknox	kotarak: I was just trying to get rid of the incredibly annoying c3p0 messages that shouldn't be there for people who are just starting
16:40	raek	mcrittenden: more variations using simpler building blocks: https://gist.github.com/1498952
16:40	brehaut	dmansen: minus the generality of a monadic definition
16:41	technomancy	might need a lossless reader for that though =)
16:41	dmansen	brehaut: right, i was really happy when i found that construct
16:41	dmansen	very helpful
16:41	hiredman	orly
16:41	hiredman	man, where could we get one...
16:41	mcrittenden	raek wow, very helpful, thanks a lot
16:41	kotarak	ibdknox: Ah. Ok. Logging seems to be an annoying part of the Java world.
16:41	brehaut	technomancy: i have one of those. but its in javascript
16:41	ibdknox	kotarak: yeah :( I mean it's really, really bad with c3p0
16:42	ibdknox	I spent a couple hours trying to find another way to fix it
16:42	hiredman	(oh, right, I started one of those and never finished it)
16:42	ibdknox	kotarak: is it causing you problems? I recently made the properties file less stupid
16:42	tscheibl	ibdknox: have you had a look at BoneCP?
16:43	brehaut	dmansen: (do-monad seq-m …) in algo.monads is for implemented monadically
16:43	ibdknox	tscheibl: no sir, what's that?
16:43	kotarak	ibdknox: In theory, it sounds easy: use slf4j and leave the rest to the end application. It doesn't cause problems, I hope. At least I seem to managed to exclude log4j. But I haven't done much work, yet.
16:43	tscheibl	ibdknox: a connection pool that claims to be the fastest
16:43	krey	,(clj-time.format/unparse (formatters :basic-date-time) now)
16:43	raek	mcrittenden: also, the function should probably named "list-directories", since it filters away all files from the seq. :-)
16:43	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clj-time.format>
16:43	tscheibl	ibdknox: I've been using it for quite a while now
16:44	dmansen	brehaut: i took a look at that package but haven't played with it yet
16:44	mcrittenden	raek I actually changed the .isDirectory to .isFile, that's what I actually needed. I had it backwards
16:44	krey	clj_time.core$now cannot be cast to org.joda.time.ReadableInstant clj-time.format/unparse (format.clj:147) <<< ???
16:44	lazybot	krey: How could that be wrong?
16:44	kotarak	ibdknox: I remember someone having conflicts with the configuration due to the one shipped with korma complaining on the clojure google group.
16:44	devinus_	,(.start (new Thread))
16:44	clojurebot	nil
16:44	technomancy	devinus_: I'll do an issue round-up sometime this week; going to make a release of 1.3.4 soon
16:44	technomancy	(for swank)
16:45	krey	don't know much about jodatime
16:45	devinus_	technomancy: nice! thanks, i just thought i'd point it out. it's weird tho (regarding that issue) Clojure Box on widows seems to work just fine with the default hook
16:45	devinus_	technomancy: not sure what's so special about emacs 24 on ubuntu -.-
16:46	kotarak	krey: clj_time.core$now is a clojure function.
16:46	devinus_	but i'm just glad to know it wasn't just my problem
16:46	kotarak	krey: use something like (now) instead of just now.
16:46	krey	ahhhh
16:46	brehaut	krey: now is a function, not a value
16:46	TimMc	brehaut: sniped again!
16:47	kotarak	krey: for obvious reasons. ;)
16:47	krey	thought it was part of jodatime
16:47	brehaut	TimMc: of course :P
16:47	kotarak	krey: Joda has good documentation.
16:47	devinus_	technomancy: also, slightly off topic, but why does the version of slime used by swank so old (2010)?
16:47	ibdknox	tscheibl: can you log an issue against korma to tell me to go check it out? lol
16:47	mcrittenden	oh ibdknox just realized you're the noir guy. I've been following that project for months and it's part of what prompted me to start looking at clojure today. thanks
16:48	ibdknox	mcrittenden: you are quite welcome :)
16:48	technomancy	devinus_: because it works, and upgrading it to a newer version would be a lot of work for very little benefit.
16:48	ibdknox	kotarak: I think the new properties file should fix that
16:48	brehaut	TimMc: im partly and idiot, and partly suffer from NZ internet latency
16:48	devinus_	technomancy: ah ok, jw
16:48	tscheibl	ibdknox: sure ;)
16:48	TimMc	brehaut: I was wondering how much latency contributed.
16:48	technomancy	devinus_: I could rant if you want more details
16:48	TimMc	I don't know much about the IRC topology, either.
16:49	amalloy	TimMc: re latency: brehaut just had this great idea: maybe we could write a compiler that converts clojure to javascript
16:49	devinus_	technomancy: if you don't mind, i'd love to hear it :)
16:49	TimMc	amalloy: hehe
16:49	dmansen	technomancy: i am curious too
16:49	TimMc	There's a way to send an IRC ping, yeah?
16:50	technomancy	devinus_: basically the slime developers want everyone to run from CVS, and they are not interested in making stable releases
16:50	brehaut	amalloy: ive heard of this javascript. its that thing from sun that runs applets right?
16:50	amalloy	TimMc: /ping
16:50	TimMc	OK, gonna try that.
16:50	devinus_	technomancy: i got that feeling too when i was working with quicklisp
16:50	TimMc	brehaut: Did that notify you? I seem to recall that pings generate a notification.
16:51	brehaut	TimMc: err. not that ive seen?
16:51	TimMc	OK, cool.
16:51	brehaut	could just be slow though :P
16:52	TimMc	Ah, it depends on your client. I get notified when I ping myself -- and it takes 3.43 seconds to ping myself?!
16:54	technomancy	that's not going to work for people with production code, but nobody uses CL in their day jobs, so presumably they don't care much about that. but anyway, for swank-clojure I just picked a revision that was stable and packaged that, but the slime devs have introduced incompatibilities in CVS so you can't use the newest slime with the stable swank.
16:54	technomancy	anyway, it causes problems when people want to use Clojure and CL from the same Emacs instance, but most people doing Clojure lose interest in CL, so it hasn't proven to be terrible in practice.
16:54	technomancy	it's too bad that rant is too long for a single clojurebot factoid since I could save a lot of time with that
16:55	amalloy	technomancy: gist.github.com
16:55	TimMc	Not a bad idea.
16:55	devinus_	technomancy: i'm sure you've had to reiterate it a few times :P
16:56	devinus_	technomancy: i'm one of the unfortunately that would like to get CL and Clojure working from the same emacs instance at some point
16:56	devinus_	for now i'm fine (just working with Clojure)
16:59	dmansen	technomancy: do you have any idea how much has changed since you last updated slime? i'd be willing to take a look
16:59	technomancy	dmansen: scottj would know
17:00	dmansen	i'll probably try it out tonight...i've just been having so much fun i can't stop :)
17:01	devinus_	technomancy: do you work at heroku?
17:01	technomancy	devinus_: yeah
17:01	devinus_	technomancy: i've gotta say, deploying my clj app to heroku with lein… that was the most pleasant experience of my life
17:01	technomancy	devinus_: awesome =)
17:11	kotarak	Ah! Korma is case-sensitive! How do I get rid of this in SQL?
17:11	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:12	ibdknox	kotarak: you have two options, you can either tell it not to use quoted identifiers, or change the naming functions
17:13	fridim_	devinus, do you use a Clj framework ?
17:13	kotarak	ibdknox: If I have just simple :keyword -> table/column translations. Is it then save to turn of these quoted identifiers?
17:13	kotarak	s/of/off
17:14	ibdknox	kotarak: quoted identifiers are only there to save you from name collisions within sql itself, like "user" which is reserved in postgres
17:14	ibdknox	so yes, it's safe :)
17:14	kotarak	Ah. Ok. Then how do I do it?
17:15	ibdknox	(defdb prod (postgres {:delimiters "" ...}))
17:15	ibdknox	or whatever DB you're using, just provide the :delimiters key
17:15	ibdknox	kotarak: that only works in 0.3.0-alpha5+ (it's at alpha8 now)
17:16	kotarak	And does this also mean that response maps from eg. a select us lowercase keywords?
17:16	kotarak	ibdknox: using alpha8 with h2 at the moment.
17:16	ibdknox	depends on the db manufacturer
17:16	ibdknox	kotarak: if you want you can force everything to be lowercased by setting the :naming key
17:17	ibdknox	:naming {:fields string/lower-case :keys string/lower-case}
17:17	ibdknox	:keys sets the keywords you get back in maps
17:18	ibdknox	:fields modifies what goes into the db (many db's, for example, uppercase all identifiers
17:19	kotarak	ibdknox: Ok. Thanks. (I just don't want to SHOUT everywhere IN my CODE.) I find lowercase easier to read. H2 at least copes with lower-case input.
17:19	ibdknox	kotarak: definitely, it's annoying :)
17:20	krey	clojurestack.core=> (str (binding [print-dup true] (clj-time.format/unparse (formatters :date-hour-minute-second) (now)))) "2011-12-19T22:18:58"
17:21	krey	But the result saved in memcached is like: #=(clojurestack.memcache$gen_timestamp. )
17:22	hiredman	krey: looks like a bad print dup method is defined for whatever type that is
17:22	krey	okay, forgot () again. mhhh
17:22	krey	Can I get rid of all taht print-dup stuff?
17:23	kotarak	ibdknox: I can't redef an existing defdb?
17:23	brehaut	krey: yes i think so; unparse generates a string anyway
17:24	ibdknox	kotarak: I made them defonce's because terrible things happened if you constantly recreated those connections (you would kill your db)
17:25	amalloy	so if i have a string like "foo/bar/baz", anyone have a clever way to get out the stuff after the last /? i could do a regex, or a .lastIndexOf or something, but neither of those seem very nice
17:25	krey	yes, works
17:26	kotarak	ibdknox: I see. Maybe a shutdown command or something like that should be available? One does this in development only, anyway, I would suspect.
17:26	kotarak	ibdknox: One ns-unmap later everything works perfectly, btw. :)
17:26	krey	Is there a nice way to print records to stdout ? like they appear in the repl ?
17:26	brehaut	,(last (.split "foo/bar/baz" "/")) ;; amalloy ?
17:26	clojurebot	"baz"
17:27	kotarak	,(subs "foo/bar/baz" (.lastIndexOf "foo/bar/baz" "/"))
17:27	clojurebot	"/baz"
17:27	ibdknox	kotarak: yeah, should be a dev only issue. There might be something better for that though, I'll see if I can come up with something :)
17:27	kotarak	plus an inc...
17:27	ibdknox	brehaut's is probably the shortest
17:28	brehaut	ibdknox: and slowest ;)
17:28	ibdknox	yes :p
17:28	amalloy	brehaut: nahhhh, re-seq would be slower
17:28	brehaut	ah good point
17:28	krey	makes it sense to encapsulate the binding [print-dup true] ? maybe into "escape [exp]"
17:29	ibdknox	I assume lastIndexOf would be the fastest
17:29	kotarak	ibdknox: Maybe just a warning or so. I was simply surprised that it ignored my setting. After manually defing to nil, it wouldn't switch to the given definition, Then it rang a bell. :)
17:29	amalloy	yeah, i was going to do lastIndexOf/subString but hoped someone knew of a prettier built-in
17:32	kotarak	ibdknox: one more question: How do defdb things relate to java.jdbc's with-connection? Can I use them there also? (I suspect, no)
17:33	ibdknox	kotarak: if you call korma.db/get-connection, you sure can :)
17:34	kotarak	ibdknox: Ok. Thanks. :) (Nice support. :D)
17:37	krey	What is happening to defstruct / structs ? Are they removed when records are the way to go? Or do they stay for any reason?
17:39	technomancy	krey: they may be removed at the next backwards-compatibility-break, but that is very far off in the future.
17:39	technomancy	people are still licking their wounds from the last one.
17:40	kenth	Hi, does anyone own the Joy of Clojure book? I have trouble understanding a piece of code on page 85
17:41	technomancy	clojurebot: slime cvs rant is http://p.hagelb.org/slime-cvs-rant.txt.html
17:41	krey	Ahhh thx technomancy ...
17:41	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:41	brehaut	kencausey2: listing 5.1 ?
17:41	brehaut	sorry, kenth: listing 5.1 ?
17:41	krey	What has been excluded in the last release? Is there a list of items?
17:41	kenth	Yep, on the last line (map #(map + yx %) deltas)
17:42	kenth	I have never seen anonymous functions used that way
17:42	brehaut	kenth: its reader shorthand
17:42	brehaut	,'#(map + yx %)
17:42	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__27#] (map + yx p1__27#))
17:43	brehaut	kenth: see page 28, 2.3.4 In-place functions with #()
17:43	raek	there: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-900
17:44	TimMc	&`#(map + yx %)
17:44	lazybot	⇒ (fn* [p1__9130__9131__auto__] (clojure.core/map clojure.core/+ clojure.core/yx p1__9130__9131__auto__))
17:44	TimMc	brehaut: There are two levels of gensym there!
17:44	brehaut	TimMc: lol true
17:45	brehaut	kenth: is the anon function syntax that only thing you are having trouble with in that piece of code
17:46	kenth	I was trying to understand why + and yx are not in brackets, I'm looking at page 28 now..
17:48	kenth	two functions map, and + followed by 2 arguments yx and %, is that part of infix notation?
17:48	kenth	prefix I mean
17:49	Chousuke	the + is an argument to map
17:49	brehaut	and map over two lists is like zip in some functions
17:49	brehaut	s/functions/languages/
17:49	brehaut	s/lists/seqs/
17:50	Chousuke	kenth: in this case, #(map + yx %) expands to a function of one argument (the %) that maps + over yx and the argument
17:50	TimMc	&(map + [1 2 3] [300 200 100]) ; kenth
17:50	lazybot	⇒ (301 202 103)
17:50	kenth	Ok I see, is yx a vector?
17:50	Chousuke	yx can be any seqable thing
17:50	kenth	Ok got it, thanks
18:24	sjl	Anyone know what this exception is trying to say? Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.RT.keyword(Ljava/lang/String;Ljava/lang/String;)Lclojure/lang/Keyword;
18:30	seancorfield	sounds like you've called keyword with two arguments?
18:31	akhudek	any clojureql experts around? I'm having trouble figuring out if what I'm trying to do is possible.
18:31	akhudek	basically a conj! where one of the values is an aggregate result of a select
18:31	akhudek	in a single transaction
18:31	seancorfield	sjl: &(doc keyword)
18:31	seancorfield	darn, where's the bot?
18:31	seancorfield	,(doc keyword)
18:31	clojurebot	"([name] [ns name]); Returns a Keyword with the given namespace and name. Do not use : in the keyword strings, it will be added automatically."
18:31	sjl	seancorfield: hmm, I ran lein clean and lein deps again and now it doesn't happen, so it must be something in a lib I'm using...
18:32	seancorfield	oh ok...
18:32	accel	is using Dynamic Vars (binding) an acceptable way to simulate the State Monad in clojure?
18:33	sjl	weird that lein deps alone didn't fix it
18:33	raek	sjl: could be due to old .class files from a compilation to a different clojure version
18:33	sjl	raek: ah, that must be it. I tried 1.3 but something in the libs I'm using didn't like it, so I switched back to 1.2.1 and got that
18:34	seancorfield	did the signature of keyword change between 1.2 and 1.3?
18:35	seancorfield	i find it a bit confusing that ns in some docstrings means a namespace object and in others means a namespace name (a string)
18:43	akhudek	I'm guessing this is not possible, looking through the source.
18:48	akhudek	I find I'm often fighting clojureql due to it's lack of transactions that combine selects and inserts. :/
18:49	pandeiro	anyone know what happened to https://github.com/bobby/trail ? ClojureScript MVC-like thing?
18:51	accel	does load-file not automatically reload all?
18:51	accel	i'm getting weird problems of running old code
18:51	technomancy	certain forms cannot be reloaded at runtime
18:51	accel	are defmulti one of them?
18:51	accel	is multimethods one of them?
18:52	technomancy	you can do it, but it takes a little trick
18:52	technomancy	basically (def x nil) (defmulti x [...])
18:52	accel	URL? I'm clearly not doing such trick
18:52	accel	hmm
18:52	accel	that's it?
18:52	technomancy	"it's a feature"
18:52	technomancy	yeah
18:52	technomancy	you just have to redef it to nil before loading the defmulti
18:53	accel	since you understand this and I do not; what is the intended benefit of this feature?
18:53	technomancy	if you have defmethods in a separate file from the defmulti, it's easy to reload the defmulti and lose all your methods without this behaviour.
18:54	technomancy	(not defending it; I think it's bad design, but that's the logic behind it.)
18:55	accel	it kind of makes sense; part of the coolness of multimethods is that they can be defined over different files
18:56	technomancy	yeah, but you can get into crazy circularity issues if you split up a defmulti and its methods
18:56	accel	I'll jot down your nick and bother you when I get into those. :-)
18:57	pandeiro	why is it that 'doc' isnt available when i clojure-jack-in to a lein project from emacs? is that normal?
18:57	technomancy	pandeiro: try C-c C-c C-d instead
18:57	brehaut	pandeiro: clojure has multiple entry points (for lack of a better term), and only the repl one includes the repl tools by default
18:57	technomancy	doc was moved out of the clojure.core namespace
18:58	pandeiro	i see, C-c C-c C-d, cool
19:01	accel	can I attach member methods to defstruct, defrecord, or deftype?
19:11	aaelony	I'm wrapping my head around the examples here (http://clojure.org/concurrent_programming) and hungry for more clojure examples of java.util.concurrent. Any good links are most welcome...
19:24	accel	how do I create something mutable taht I can call set! on?
19:25	hiredman	why?
19:25	clojurebot	hiredman: because you can't handle the truth!
19:25	hiredman	clojurebot: it's true
19:25	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
19:25	lancepantz_	hehe
19:25	accel	does let create thread local vars?
19:25	accel	(thread local vars is what I wnat)
19:25	hiredman	accel: why?
19:25	accel	i'm keeping track of a cursor
19:26	accel	I understand clojure is all abou being functional
19:26	accel	for this particular case, I have to maintain state
19:26	accel	else I have to use amonad
19:26	hiredman	what kind of cursor?
19:26	amalloy	pandeiro, technomancy: C-c C-d C-d, right? not C-c C-c C-d
19:26	accel	x + y location no the screen
19:27	technomancy	amalloy: oh right
19:27	accel	on
19:27	technomancy	well, that or C-c C-d d
19:27	hiredman	accel: can you not just ask the cursor where it is?
19:28	hiredman	if you are doing gui stuff in java, you are dealing with multiple threads, so threadlocals are kind of "meh"
19:29	accel	Note - you cannot assign to function params or local bindings. Only Java fields, Vars, Refs and Agents are mutable in Clojure. Hmm
19:29	hiredman	if you don't have a cursor object you can just ask "where are you?" then most likely you are getting cursor information as a serias of events
19:29	hiredman	what you'll want to do is give that series of events a single identity via a reference type
19:30	hiredman	most likely a ref or an atom
19:31	hiredman	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Are-We-There-Yet-Rich-Hickey
19:33	accel	I reallyw ant vars.
19:33	accel	Question: is there a way to create vars besides (def x ... )?
19:33	hiredman	why?
19:33	clojurebot	hiredman: because you can't handle the truth!
19:33	lancepantz_	lol
19:33	hiredman	clojurebot: knock it off
19:33	clojurebot	I don't understand.
19:34	accel	ah; with-local-vars
19:35	accel	that is what I want
19:35	technomancy	clojurebot: with-local-vars
19:35	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
19:35	hiredman	accel: no it isn't
19:35	technomancy	clojurebot: with-local-vars is not what you want.
19:35	clojurebot	c'est bon!
19:35	technomancy	(for all values of you ≠ rhickey)
19:36	hiredman	accel: why do you think you want a var?
19:36	hiredman	for all values of you where you can't answer the question "why do you want a var?"
19:37	accel	because I know for certain that these set of variables are only being modified in this one thread
19:37	hiredman	so?
19:37	accel	So why can't I use local vars?
19:37	accel	What do ou have against vars?
19:37	accel	Did you buy stocks of atoms/refs/agents ?
19:38	brehaut	vars are more about language plumbing than mutation (at least for non-experts)
19:38	accel	I don't understand what you mean by "language plumbing." Can you explain?
19:39	technomancy	accel: the only reason vars are mutable is to allow you to modify your program at runtime.
19:39	hiredman	if you can say just say (MouseInfo/getPointerInfo) and get the info when you need it, why are you mutating anything?
19:39	technomancy	otherwise you'd get into situations like ml where redefinitions only affect functions defined after them.
19:39	accel	hiredman: the cursor is NOT managed by java; it's a virtual curosr I am amnaging in clojure
19:40	hiredman	accel: ok, so you have a pair that represents an x and y?
19:40	accel	hiredman: yes
19:40	accel	hiredman: and this is also a very very short lived cursor
19:40	accel	hiredman: it's basically a virtual cursor that helps me keep track of where to draw text
19:40	brehaut	accel: 'plumbing' as in the stuff under the surface that does important stuff that you dont need to understand just to use the sink
19:41	accel	i.e. y = tracks # of new lines; x = tracks number of "indents"
19:41	accel	brehaut: so basically, vars were never meant for mortals to use?
19:42	brehaut	mortals is too strong
19:42	brehaut	they have a specific purpose that is not blanket 'state'
19:42	hiredman	accel: no vars are very useful, and you should know what they do, and what you can do with them, but you should also know that if you managing mutation you should use a ref or an atom
19:42	brehaut	well. purposes
19:42	akhudek	oh nice, I think transactions are working in clojureql 1.0.3
19:42	cemerick	accel: Clojure has a number of reference types; vars are just one of them.
19:42	akhudek	jdbc transactions that is
19:43	hiredman	accel: if your cursor is lexically scoped, then you can just recur around it
19:43	accel	alright you guys win. I will read page 172- of the clojure book; then decide if I want to use vars.
19:44	dnolen	accel: if you need to maintain some state why don't atoms work?
19:44	cemerick	Yes, we won! :-D
19:44	pandeiro	dnolen: do you know anything about https://github.com/bobby/trail (clojurescript mvc) ie where it went?
19:44	accel	http://paste.lisp.org/display/126589 <-- what my code currently looks like; I need to provide functions (nl, sr, sl, drawstring) that other functions can call
19:44	hiredman	accel: I dunno if any clojure book as a decent treatment of vars
19:45	brehaut	wow. defstruct
19:45	brehaut	and an underscore
19:45	hiredman	actually I just rewatched rhickey's talk on clojure and concurrency and he said something like "I could talk for 2 hours about vars"
19:45	hiredman	"well, why don't you?"
19:46	accel	brehaut: I'm pretty sure I have more than 1 underscore, I think I have 4.
19:46	brehaut	accel: make_Cursor should probably be make-cursor, and just stick with a map for the cursor for now; defstructs are deprecated (?)
19:46	dnolen	defstruct is deprecated in favor of defrecord
19:46	brehaut	dnolen: but not annotated as such in the code i think
19:47	hiredman	accel: you should just have an atom you call 'cursor' and (defn nl [cusor] ...)
19:47	brehaut	http://clojure.org/data_structures#Data%20Structures-StructMaps says 'most uses of StructMaps would now be better served by records'
19:48	brehaut	infact in this case, i think a protocol and reify looks like a better candidate ?
19:48	brehaut	(over an atom)
19:49	hiredman	brehaut: why?
19:49	brehaut	hiredman: rather than a map of functions?
19:49	hiredman	oh, sure, no I thought you meant over just an atom
19:50	brehaut	oh right sorry. i meant _closed over_ an atom
19:50	brehaut	but i am a muppet. sorry
19:50	hiredman	(defn make-cursor [x y] {:x x :y y})
19:51	accel	defrecord expects me to provide typing
19:51	accel	how do I provide the types of functions?
19:51	hiredman	(defn draw-cursor [g s {:keys [x y]}] (.drawString g s x y))
19:51	hiredman	hmmm
19:51	accel	I have a field; its records stores functions. What is the type of a function?
19:52	brehaut	defrecord doesnt require types
19:52	hiredman	oh, make-cursor should wrap the map in an atom, so the destructuring won't work
19:52	brehaut	accel: your code has a very OO factoring. its pretty weird looking clojure code
19:52	hiredman	but anyway, no need for with-local-vars, no need for passing around a map of functions, no need for reify
19:53	dnolen	hiredman: I'm not sure if make-cursor should do the atom wrapping.
19:53	accel	oay; it soudns like I'm doing sommething reallyr eallyw rong
19:53	accel	so let me repharse my question:
19:53	accel	I want to render sexps in a java graphics environment
19:53	accel	I want each () to be on a new line, and to be indenented appropriately
19:53	accel	how should I solve this problem?
19:54	cemerick	accel: do you have a text component, e.g. JTextArea, or are you drawing via Graphics2D?
19:54	hiredman	you are in for a world of pain
19:55	hiredman	(if not already apparent)
19:56	brehaut	hiredman: is that for the indenting or the java2d? or both?
19:56	hiredman	the easiest thing would be to use clojure.ppint to print it, and write it to a jta, but the formatting isn't the best
19:56	dnolen	accel: I have no comment on how you should do that, but I would write you paste like this, https://gist.github.com/1499686
19:56	accel	cemerick: Graphics2D
19:56	hiredman	brehaut: the first, but the second wouldn't surprise me
19:56	hiredman	so the third would not either
19:57	brehaut	:)
19:57	accel	I have to roll the printing routines myself; I'm actually printing stuff more complicated than just sexps
19:57	accel	it's like sexps + graphics
19:57	cemerick	accel: I'd do what hiredman said, and then rasterize the JTextArea to an image you draw to the graphics context.
19:57	accel	but it's approximately the same problem
19:58	brehaut	i have bad memories of font metric stuff in java 2d back in the 1.4 days
19:58	brehaut	(quite possible i was just a muppet though)
19:59	accel	screw it; enough prermture planning
19:59	cemerick	No, text rasterization is not an easy thing.
19:59	accel	let's see where this breaks :-)
20:00	hiredman	you can mix graphics and text without having draw everything yourself
20:00	hiredman	depending on how much mixing you are doing
20:01	cemerick	has anyone worked with canvas much after using Java2D extensively? How scared/enthusiastic should I be about the former in comparison?
20:02	brehaut	ive dabbled with both. canvas compares nicely for the basics
20:03	cemerick	and beyond the basics? That's where all the trouble usually happens :-)
20:03	brehaut	canvas doesnt have many more complex operations out of the box
20:03	cemerick	I've found 1.6 Graphics2D to be remarkably satisfying.
20:03	brehaut	i think java2d is better for stuff with masking, image composition etc
20:03	cemerick	ah
20:04	brehaut	and things like complex curves
20:04	cemerick	probably no quads and such
20:04	brehaut	quads = quadratic beziers?
20:05	brehaut	if so, then no
20:05	cgray	midje question: I have a function (foo) that returns a set of vecs like #{["bar" "baz"] ["fred" "ethel"]} ... how do I check for the first vec in the set using midje? (foo) => (contains ["bar" "baz"]) doesn't seem to be working
20:06	sritchie	contains?
20:06	sritchie	with a ?
20:06	clojurebot	contains? is for checking whether a collection has a value for a given key. If you want to find out whether a value exists in a Collection (in linear time!), use clojure.core/some or the java method .contains
20:06	brehaut	cemerick: last time i tried to use j2d, i couldnt find a push/pop state/matrix operation. does one exist?
20:06	brehaut	or just the set itself
20:06	cgray	sritchie: contains? is the normal clojure function right
20:07	brehaut	,(#{["bar" "baz"] ["fred" "ethel"]} ["bar" "baz"])
20:07	clojurebot	["bar" "baz"]
20:07	cgray	brehaut: thanks, that works
20:07	cemerick	brehaut: sure, Graphics.create(), been there forever :-)
20:07	brehaut	cemerick: aha :)
20:08	cemerick	There's no push/pop, you just get another context, so you can work in multiple levels of the "stack" at the same time.
20:08	brehaut	sure, that makes a bunch of sense
20:08	brehaut	oh, the other gotcha with canvas is that if you are doing pixel work, then you have to watch out for fun with Number sometimes being an int and sometimes being a float
20:09	brehaut	(also, whoa that stuff gets slow fast)
20:10	cemerick	yeah, that's my biggest concern
20:10	cemerick	aside from the whole programming-in-the-browser thing :-P
20:10	brehaut	lol :)
20:11	cemerick	Maybe I'll just do the tiling thing and keep my sanity.
20:11	dnolen	cemerick: are you going to be doing a lot of pixel level manipulation tho? I've found that even that can surprisingly fast in Chrome and Safari.
20:13	cemerick	dnolen: Not clear yet, but I suspect I'll have at least one layer doing detail work, even if the body of things are going to be tiled in.
20:14	brehaut	cemerick: i found that safari and chrome can do a simple 3x3 convolution of a ~1400x1000 within acceptable time
20:14	brehaut	(it gets a little sluggish to do on resize, but its not unexceptable for other operations)
20:14	cemerick	But FF and IE 9 dog it I take it?
20:15	dnolen	cemerick: FF and IE 9 both have good canvas engines, Opera too.
20:15	brehaut	IE9 didnt exist when i was trying this stuff
20:15	dnolen	cemerick: but if your operations are compute intensive, Chrome & Safari have the edge.
20:15	brehaut	its the javascript engine that is the real bottleneck for imagedata processing though
20:16	brehaut	dnolen: FF has picked up its game. i think it might have an edge over Saf at the moment
20:16	brehaut	see also http://arewefastyet.com/
20:16	brehaut	cemerick: however, you've got no hope of it working acceptably on an iphone or ipad
20:16	brehaut	(and a lot of android phones dont even have canvas :S)
20:18	cemerick	oh well
20:18	dnolen	you can definitely do very complex graphics quickly in canvas. Our cartographers at Times are doing neat stuff with complex maps that used to be done in Flash.
20:19	cemerick	That's promising then.
20:19	dnolen	works great on iOS even though you have to render at double resolution on the newer devices.
20:19	technomancy	I wonder how many professional cartographers there are in the world.
20:19	brehaut	i would guess that there are a lot more than their used to be
20:20	brehaut	dnolen: are they drawing vector stuff on the iOS or doing pixel manipulation?
20:20	dnolen	brehaut: mostly vector stuff, some pixel stuff I think for hit detection, it's all very custom for performance reasons.
20:21	sritchie	do you guys have any advice for how to think about designing a throttling download manager in clojure?
20:21	sritchie	this is my first real dive into the concurrency primitives
20:22	brehaut	dnolen: interesting. i found i couldnt get a full screen image have 1 multiply pass on the iPad.
20:22	brehaut	certainly the vector stuff is much more attainable
20:23	brehaut	cemerick: if you are just _drawing_ images to the canvas its obvious very fast btw, its just per px twiddling with JS that can get slow
20:23	dnolen	brehaut: so far we've seen that JS performance is an order of magnitude slower on iOS. which is not a big deal for many things, certainly for graphics tho.
20:24	brehaut	dnolen: did you see a noticable bump when the JIT was enabled in safari?
20:24	brehaut	(in iOS 4.2 or 5 i think?)
20:24	dnolen	brehaut: I think it was like 25X slower before, now 10X slower.
20:24	brehaut	right
20:24	brehaut	thanks
20:25	cemerick	brehaut: I presume it'd be faster to just put the tiles into a background element and draw detail on an otherwise-transparent canvas on top…
20:25	brehaut	cemerick: yeah probably
20:25	brehaut	you dont have to manage the redraw for one thing
20:25	cemerick	right
20:25	cemerick	More I can do via DOM/svg, the happier I get. ;-)
20:25	brehaut	cemerick: i think you can probably just set the background css property on the canvas element too ;)
20:26	brehaut	:)
20:26	brehaut	back in a bit
20:26	dnolen	cemerick: you can also use a canvas for background images.
20:26	cemerick	sure
20:26	dnolen	cemerick: this is interesting since then you can draw to one surface and this is efficiently replicated.
20:26	cemerick	I'd hope I don't have to get that fancy.
20:27	cemerick	replicated?
20:27	dnolen	cemerick: it's a shared buffer
20:27	dnolen	for those elements using that canvas as a background.
20:27	cemerick	oh, I see
20:48	brehaut	cemerick: if you do plan on canvas stuff running on iOS devices, you also have to be careful of memory constraints; the browser only allows you a very small portion of the available system memory to be present in memory at once and all your JS objects (including any images) have to be within that allowance
20:51	cgray	is set/select faster than filter on sets?
20:51	hiredman	,(require 'clojure.set)
20:52	clojurebot	nil
20:52	hiredman	~source clojure.set/select
20:53	gfredericks	that may be the first time I've seen the same object used for the last two args of reduce
20:54	brehaut	gfredericks: same. clever trick though eh
20:54	gfredericks	indeed. took a bit to make sense of it.
20:54	gfredericks	cgray: it's probably at least faster than using filter and putting it back into a set
20:55	cgray	gfredericks: true, but I could just use the output of filter as is
20:55	cgray	I suppose it probably depends how many things are returned eh?
20:56	gfredericks	my naive hunch is that for outputting a seq filter would be better
20:56	gfredericks	maybe not noticeably
20:56	gfredericks	I say that because set/select has to muck with the structure of a hash-set
20:56	brehaut	huh. a quick and dirty time dotimes suggest that select is a few orders of magnitude slower
20:56	gfredericks	whereas filter is just iterating
20:56	gfredericks	which select has to do anyhow
20:57	brehaut	and by a few i mean 3
20:57	cgray	orders of magnitude = powers of ten?
20:57	hiredman	brehaut: will a doall around filter?
20:57	brehaut	hiredman: aha good catch
20:57	brehaut	0 orders of magnitude different
20:58	TimMc	haha, I always forget doall
20:58	cgray	ok, i'll just use filter then, because that way i don't have to require clojure.set
20:58	TimMc	or dorun, really
20:58	brehaut	filters still a bit faster but not by much
20:58	brehaut	cgray: use the one that has the semantics you want
20:59	brehaut	ie if you want a seq use filter
20:59	cgray	it doesn't really matter in this application... either works
20:59	brehaut	cgray: sounds like it wants a seq then? you are passing it to a seq consuming function?
21:02	cgray	brehaut: no, i'm going to choose one of the returned things at random
21:02	brehaut	cgray: using rand-nth ?
21:02	cgray	yeah i guess, so probably it wants to be a seq then
21:07	accel	slightly OT question: should pizza delivery be 10% or 20% tip?
21:07	gfredericks	that's ironic because rand-nth could probably be faster on a set theoretically...
21:08	brehaut	gfredericks: now i need to go look at the imp of nth
21:08	cgray	gfredericks: if only it worked... :P
21:08	brehaut	~source nth
21:08	cgray	the nth of a set doesn't make much semantic sense
21:09	gfredericks	cgray: no, but I think rand-nth as a direct impl (not using nth) could be faster
21:09	gfredericks	at least if it could reach into the set's impl as well
21:09	gfredericks	I'm not suggesting this should exist
21:09	brehaut	gfredericks: oh right. yes sure
21:11	gfredericks	though now that I think about it, I think for a hash-set there's maybe not a fast way to do it with an even distribution... :/
21:12	cgray	gfredericks: maybe it would be better called clojure.set/rand-element or something
21:12	gfredericks	certainly
22:14	devn	best parser combinator library for clojure?
22:25	devn	Could someone enlighten me w/r/t (derive `Foo `Bar)
22:25	devn	Is a well-documented pattern? I personally haven't rubbed up against it until recently.
22:25	devn	Is it*
22:26	devn	In general I tend to see (derive ::foo ::bar)
22:27	brehaut	devn: isnt that so you can make heirarchies that include classes?
22:27	brehaut	although it appears that derive only cares that things are clojure.lang.Named
22:34	cemerick	brehaut: `Foo yields a namespaced symbol
22:34	cemerick	devn: decidedly not typical.
22:35	devn	cemerick: I figured as much. This comes from a library which was a direct port by a Haskell guy. namesLookLikeThis, etc.
22:35	devn	,(derive `Foo `Bar)
22:35	clojurebot	nil
22:35	devn	,(ancestors `Foo)
22:35	clojurebot	#{sandbox/Bar}
22:35	cemerick	it's not going to hurt anything, but looks damn strange.
22:36	devn	Since it is a set I suppose you could call it like a fn, though, right?
22:36	devn	,(dervice ::foo ::bar)
22:36	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: dervice in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
22:36	devn	,(derive ::foo ::bar)
22:36	clojurebot	nil
22:36	devn	,(ancestors ::foo)
22:36	clojurebot	#{:sandbox/bar}
22:36	devn	There is a subtle difference. Hm.
22:37	devn	still seems like the latter is to be preferred
22:37	brehaut	cemerick: oh of course. my bad
22:37	devn	what with hashmaps being a more regular form of clojurian currency
22:37	cemerick	what do hashmaps have to do with it?
22:38	devn	I was just noting that `Foo => #{sandbox/Bar}, and ::foo => #{:sandbox/bar}
22:38	cemerick	they're both sets
22:43	devn	cemerick: yes, but one of them lends itself more to being used as a predicate
22:43	devn	,(remove #{:foo/bar} [:foo/bar :bar/baz])
22:43	clojurebot	(:bar/baz)
22:44	cemerick	,(remove #{`bar} `[bar baz])
22:44	clojurebot	(sandbox/baz)
22:44	cemerick	:-)
22:44	devn	cemerick: yeah I knew that was coming
22:44	cemerick	I get what you mean, keywords are certainly more common in most places
22:45	devn	the backticks everywhere is weird
22:45	devn	s/is/are
22:45	cemerick	certainly doesn't help readability, and also sets off alarms because they're so rare outside of macros
22:45	devn	exactly.
22:45	devn	cemerick: going to clojure/west?
22:46	cemerick	mmm, hopefully
22:46	cemerick	need to get my proposal in sometime this week
22:46	devn	I think I'm going to try my hand at a proposal or two as well.
22:46	alexbaranosky	dev: go for it!
22:46	devn	I've been conferencing a bit too much this year to not speak at another one.
22:47	alexbaranosky	devn: what might you speak about?
22:48	devn	alexbaranosky: I don't know. I was thinking something about community maybe?
22:48	cemerick	devn: you should :-)
22:49	alexbaranosky	devn: that could be really cool depending how you spin it
22:49	devn	I think maybe I'll just get on stage and talk about all of the people who make clojure so great. I seem to constantly have about 30 tabs open with various clojure stuff in each of them.
22:50	devn	...daily...
22:50	cgray	hmm, am i doing something wrong with marginalia? i've got lein-marginalia 0.6.1 in my dev-dependencies, but when I run lein marg, the docstrings don't get taken out of the function definitions
22:50	alexbaranosky	I've thought of doing something on TDD in Clojure with Midje, but am procrastinating on a proposal
22:51	devn	i don't know how the hell I would have found half of the stuff I know about if I had been spending my time in another community
22:51	alexbaranosky	cgray, I also noticed that, and wondered what I might've been doing wrong
22:51	cgray	alexbaranosky: ok, at least i'm not crazy :)
22:51	alexbaranosky	devn: its just an awesome and smart community
22:52	alexbaranosky	cgray, it seemed to put comented code onto the left margin, but leave the doc strings in place, which seemed wrong to me
22:53	devn	alexbaranosky: we gotta be careful to keep group hugs alive, but not drown ourselves in a sea of meaningless "awesomeee!"
22:54	alexbaranosky	devn: it's an age old balance... I think
22:55	devn	balance seems to be the key word there. i like beer and cake, but it wouldn't be as tasty were it not for the pot of brussel sprouts I ate yesterday
22:55	alexbaranosky	hehe
22:56	alexbaranosky	this macroexpand-scan function I wrote seems vaguely useful: https://gist.github.com/1499725
22:58	devn	alexbaranosky: forgive me for prying in public, but i met you at the conj, and from that moment until now I've seen you in IRC offering help, etc. all the time. Where were you before?! :)
22:59	brehaut	cemerick: clutch 0.3 looks like a great change
22:59	alexbaranosky	devn: didn't use IRC..... :) I've been working on Midje in my spare time, and using the Clojure mailing list every once in a while, or tweeting about Clojure, but didn't realize how cool the party was on IRC
22:59	cemerick	brehaut: thanks, hope so :-)
23:00	brehaut	cemerick: i look forward to upgrading my site
23:00	cemerick	I really want to get a proper CouchDB type in there, and cloudant query support.
23:00	devn	alexbaranosky: yeah I saw you listed on the contibutors list. Anyway, long story short: awesome you're on IRC; I really enjoyed chatting with you at the conj.
23:00	cemerick	And if we can get a clojurescript release, I'll bring https://github.com/cemerick/clutch-clojurescript in
23:01	alexbaranosky	devn: I meant to chat more, but got swept up in the conference and before I knew it it was over
23:01	devn	cemerick: ah, the question is not if, but when
23:01	brehaut	cemerick: that would be excellent!
23:01	sirvaliance	Where does "lein search" pull its information from?
23:01	devn	sirvaliance: clojars.org
23:01	brehaut	im using plain old (crappy) JS views atm
23:01	sirvaliance	devn: Ahh, thanks ;)
23:01	devn	sirvaliance: np. :)
23:02	cemerick	sirvaliance: the maven indexes published by all the repositories you have registered in your project.
23:02	cemerick	devn: here's hoping :-)
23:03	devn	cemerick: I think tooling is really what needs to grow, but that's just a gut feeling.
23:05	cemerick	devn: you mean w.r.t. cljs?
23:06	brehaut	cemerick: its been a while since i touch my couch code, but the gist you linked in the ML post looks like the api is cleaner / consistent?
23:06	devn	cemerick: yes.
23:06	cemerick	brehaut: Yeah, it's gotten a pretty good scrubbing.
23:06	brehaut	excellent. i found the old api a bit forgetable
23:07	cemerick	It's still more verbose than I'd like, but there are a lot of operations available.
23:07	cemerick	That's why I want to tie things up with the typical clojure vocabulary.
23:07	brehaut	makes good sense
23:08	cemerick	One of the bigger changes that's more subtle is that view results are all lazy now.
23:08	brehaut	oh cool
23:09	cemerick	I used to implement that myself off to the side, so it was nice to be able to lift it up in to the lib proper.
23:10	brehaut	is there any support for serialisation time document processors (ie, to turn date / time objects into strings)?
23:16	devn	off the top of your head do you know if clojure.contrib.monads, contrib.except, and contrib.error-kit made the leap to 1.3?
23:16	brehaut	clojure.contrib.monads is clojure.algo.monads, and has a 0.1.1-SNAPSHOT release in the sonatype snapshots repo
23:17	brehaut	(off the top of my head)
23:18	cemerick	devn: except and error-kit are both dead-ends IIRC; try slingshot
23:19	brehaut	cemerick: you could make that argument about a monads lib too ;)
23:19	cemerick	brehaut: you mean have j.u.Dates round-trip through JSON automatically?
23:19	brehaut	cemerick: yeah, or jodatime objects
23:19	cemerick	crap, I don't get any monad jokes :-P
23:19	brehaut	cemerick: that was a blunt one about the utility or applicability of monads in clojure
23:20	clojurebot	clojure is a language to use if you want to up your game
23:20	cemerick	ah-ha
23:20	brehaut	(and that was a subtle monads joke)
23:20	amalloy	every time cemerick gets a Maybe MonadJoke, it's Nothing
23:20	cemerick	brehaut: register a method (or type extension) with clojure.data.json
23:20	brehaut	amalloy: lol
23:20	cemerick	amalloy: see, I got that one! :-D
23:20	brehaut	cemerick: aha fantastic :)
23:20	cemerick	brehaut: that's system-wide though, so…
23:21	brehaut	cemerick: aha
23:21	brehaut	not a problem for my app though
23:21	devn	oh man, I imagine a really terrible comedian doing monad jokes on a tuesday night open mic
23:22	brehaut	devn: im not sure the audience would have the appropriate comprehension
23:22	devn	example punchline: "I don't know, maybe I will! Thank you. Thank you. You're really too kind. So anyway, I'm writing some haskell."
23:23	devn	brehaut: that's what would make it so great and terrible at the same time. a comedian completely speaking over everyone's heads but does like a charicature of a comedian.
23:23	devn	does it like*
23:24	brehaut	all they really need is liftM audience
23:24	devn	like "just flew in from the coast and boy are my arms tired. so anyway, monads, right?"
23:24	devn	"am i right people? how crazy are monads?"
23:24	amalloy	"I came here with a [[Joke]], but accidentally ran it through the List monad, and now I can't tell one group from the other"
23:24	devn	"little monad humor for you. dont forget to tip your waitress."
23:25	devn	amalloy: haha. but now imagine a struggling comedian doing monad humor in a night club with his own laugh track on a portable stereo.
23:26	amalloy	devn: my version is more fun, sorry
23:27	devn	more like "more fn"! am i right people? little clojure humor for you.
23:27	amalloy	did you see someone had that on a shirt at the conj?
23:27	amalloy	Clojure programmers have more fn
23:27	brehaut	lol
23:28	devn	I didn't, but seancorfield and dnolen had a great idea: "Actuaries Do It With Prolog"
23:28	devn	s/With/In -- I'm forgetting which it was
23:28	seancorfield	Yeah, I worked at a firm of actuaries in England and they had a whole bunch of software written in Prolog
23:29	brehaut	http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/13227630_j2MHcg#960526161_yXhEz
23:30	devn	brehaut: haha
23:30	brehaut	imperative cat is quite excellent too
23:31	devn	expectid type: cat -> tail, infurd type: (cat, tail)
23:31	leo2007	there are about 1200 clojars.
23:32	seancorfield	i wonder how many of those are just forks of other libraries?
23:36	devn	seancorfield: there's probably a good answer if groups and extra dir structure, group, etc. is stripped from their ns's