#clojure – 2011-11-28

2011-11-28

00:20	biallym	Hey is there a way to have a function called on or around garbage collection of an object?
00:20	biallym	Like an idisposable?
00:23	biallym	Since java doesn't support it I will take that as a no >.>
00:27	mdeboard	Clojure does a lot of things java doesn't support
00:33	biallym	I know that, but clojure still uses java's gc as far as I know
00:34	biallym	It may have been more appropriate to say the JVM doesn't support it
01:18	quotemstr	Is there a function that always returns false?
01:20	quotemstr	Or, rather, a built-in function of one argument that is always false --- for the default value of a predicate.
01:25	hiredman	,((constantly false) 1)
01:25	clojurebot	false
01:31	amalloy	biallym: if your program depends on such a thing for its correctness, then your program is not correct, so there's not much point having it. see http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2010/08/09/10047586.aspx for a slightly more detailed assessment
01:36	amalloy	(written for the clr but applies equally well to the jvm)
01:48	isak_	is there a way to repeat a symbol a number of times? i want to write a function that does a cartesian product on the alphabet as many times as i say. e.g., if I plugged in 3, it would do (cartesian-product letters letters letters ...
01:50	hiredman	the cartesian bit you'll need to do yourself, but repeating can be done with repeat
01:50	hiredman	possibly it could be done with iterate
01:51	isak_	oh awesome
01:51	isak_	i got the other part figured out, thanks
01:51	amalloy	one of the contrib libraries has cartesian-product already though, if you'd rather use that
01:51	isak_	yeah, thats the one i'm using
01:52	isak_	the clojure version is much shorter than the ruby version i made earlier then: https://gist.github.com/1399260
01:54	amalloy	right, presumably it's just (apply product (repeat n letters))
01:56	ambrosebs	proposal for a pluggable clojure compiler, comments welcome: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Exposing+the+Compiler%27s+Analysis+Phase
02:04	hiredman	ambrosebs: using binding to effect compilation of forms within the binding depends on the way the binding macro expands, it will stop working if for whatever reason the form binding expands into was wrapped in a try
02:05	hiredman	well, it depends on the way binding expands and the way the compiler handles do
02:05	hiredman	(at least for the clojure compiler, I will admit to not being terribly familiar with the clojurescript compiler)
02:05	ambrosebs	hiredman: interesting, I really don't know the compilation phase that well so I'm just sticking it out there
02:06	hiredman	I'd suggest some kind of addition to the ns form
02:06	hiredman	instead of defing this thing
02:06	hiredman	er
02:06	ambrosebs	ah I see
02:06	ambrosebs	that makes a lot of sense
02:06	hiredman	well, instead of binding things, that does mean ns level granularity
02:07	ambrosebs	well that was what I intended originally
02:07	ambrosebs	(ns level)
02:07	ambrosebs	it makes sense to have a single "language" in a file
02:07	ambrosebs	since you are changing the language by modifying the compiler
02:07	ambrosebs	like Racket
02:15	ambrosebs	hiredman: do you happen to know where "ns" is defined in clojure?
02:15	hiredman	core.clj
02:17	ambrosebs	hiredman: cheers. How does core.clj itself have a 'ns' declaration?
02:17	hiredman	magic in RT.java
02:19	hiredman	there is a minimal version of the ns form written to clojure.core/ns by clojure.lang.RT until it is overwritten by the macro in clojure.core
02:19	hiredman	(I hadn't realized clojure.core had switched from in-ns
03:32	biallym	Is it possible to have a namespace that "forwards" another namespace?
03:32	biallym	(Or multiple such namespaces >.>)
03:35	biallym	I'll take that as another no
03:36	jacortinas	I've seen a lot of different tutorials for setting up vimclojure and nailgun, but I can't get it completely working no matter what I do
03:36	amalloy	biallym: seriously, have you used IRC before? five minutes is a ludicrously short time to wait before assuming nobody wants to help, especially if it's after midnight in the US
03:37	amalloy	it's possible to create namespaces that you might describe as forwarding, but it's not really a good idea
03:37	jacortinas	I keep receiving an error that says this, no matter what I do. "java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'vimclojure.nails/NamespaceOfFile"
03:38	jacortinas	I've been attempting to use the lein-nailgun library, does anyone else have experience with this?
03:38	biallym	amalloy: Sorry but the last 5 questions I have asked today haven't been answeared
03:38	amalloy	that's patently untrue. maybe you think that's the case because you only watch for five minutes
03:39	amalloy	but i answered your gc/finalizer question myself, and mdeboard hazarded a guess as well
03:39	biallym	I check the log >.>
03:39	amalloy	those are the only two questions i've seen from you in the past 9 hours, which is as long as my log goes right now
03:42	biallym	As to your gc/finalizer question answear... that doesn't help much when I am trying to wrap a stateful library like opengl, with incurring massive performence losses
03:42	biallym	without*
03:42	biallym	so I was correct in my answear of no... and just saying my program isn't corrent is not much of a way of saying that it can't be done
03:43	notostraca	biallym, writing heavily stateful code might be a better use for Java than Clojure
03:43	amalloy	"the answers i got were not what i hoped to hear" is pretty different from "none of my questions have been answered"
03:43	Bahman	Hi all!
03:44	notostraca	Hello Bahman, do you have a question?
03:44	Bahman	Hi notostraca. No. Why?
03:44	notostraca	oh heh
03:45	notostraca	Usually when someone joins in and immediately starts typing, they have a question they are hoping to get help on. Not this time!
03:45	amalloy	he likes to say hello when he /joins. it's a mystery
03:45	notostraca	Myself, I am beating my head against the wall trying to get JNA to work with SDL
03:46	Bahman	notostraca: Thanks for the attention. But it's more like amalloy puts it :-)
03:46	biallym	notosraca: Thats why I am wrapping it, either way the answear would be relevent to either language...
03:46	biallym	and I missed a t >.>
03:46	notostraca	wait a minute, how did i miss this
03:47	notostraca	you are wrapping OpenGL for use on the JVM?
03:47	biallym	No I am wrapping jogl for use in clojure
03:47	notostraca	I am wrapping SDL for use on the JVM
03:47	notostraca	ah
03:47	biallym	jogl peeps already did the hardstuff for me :p
03:47	notostraca	biallym, yeah JNI is not something I want to struggle through right now
03:48	notostraca	I am hoping JNA will be better
03:48	amalloy	jna does look pretty sweet
03:48	amalloy	are you using chouser's jna wrapper?
03:49	notostraca	amalloy, yeah but I have no idea how to use JNA yet
03:49	biallym	amalloy: The reason I ignored your answear is because you are basically telling me if there was ever a time I would want to use a finalizer than I am programming wrong is a bit... not nice... to put it nicely. However I apologize for being so impatient
03:49	notostraca	chouser has a JNA wrapper?
03:50	amalloy	biallym: there's a reason finalizers are deprecated and heavily frowned upon. you're welcome to use them, but you should expect headaches down the road
03:51	amalloy	$google chouser clojure jna github
03:51	lazybot	[Chouser/clojure-jna - GitHub] https://github.com/Chouser/clojure-jna
03:52	notostraca	amalloy, thanks
03:52	biallym	amalloy: well thanks for finding the answear of telling me to google for finalizers >.>
03:52	notostraca	I don't understand JNA at all. how does this resolve dependencies of native libraries?
03:53	notostraca	do I have to run JNAerator or something on the native headers before I can use them in Clojure?
03:53	amalloy	notostraca: it doesn't, as i understand it. it just calls out to your OS saying "plz load library with name xyz"
03:54	biallym	And If I didn't have the finalizer the memory leak would be a lot more horrendus
03:54	jacortinas	don't want to be annoying, but anyone here with a working vimclojure nailgun setup on OS X?
03:54	biallym	notostraca: I don't have to mess with JNI because of the way jogl is setup
03:55	notostraca	biallym, yeah I figured JOGL would have solved that
03:55	notostraca	I have no idea if there is a JNA for SDL, though I know there is a JNI one
03:55	notostraca	Slick IIRC
03:56	biallym	thank you amalloy, I shouldn't need to justify why I need some feature, telling me I am doing it wrong is a horrible way of helpoing someone find an answear. If you had just said google finalizer I would have found it.
03:58	amalloy	did you read the article i linked to? it mentioned the word "finalizer" about a hundred times
03:58	notostraca	chouser, Chousuke: if you are available, I would really appreciate some advice on where to start with JNA
03:58	biallym	yea but it just told me that I should never use them and never mentioned them in reference to java
03:59	notostraca	(I am asuming the chous* nicks are the same person)
03:59	amalloy	notostraca: no
03:59	notostraca	oh, coincidental?
04:00	biallym	I barely know anything about java, or the fact I have to oreride the finbalize method, anyways thanks
04:06	notostraca	hmm
04:06	notostraca	Then I have to start Clojure with a parameter to tell Java where to find the
04:06	notostraca	JNA native libs, the JNA .jar, and of course Clojure and this lib.
04:06	notostraca	Then I have to start Clojure with a parameter to tell Java where to find the
04:06	notostraca	JNA native libs, the JNA .jar, and of course Clojure and this lib.
04:06	notostraca	oh sorry
04:07	notostraca	I think the clojure JNA thing needs JNA to have been run on the native libs before it can use them
04:07	notostraca	or not run, generated for
04:08	amalloy	there's no JNA thing you have to run on native libs. JNA is a java binding for the FFI library, and it already has (say) C bindings, so it calls out to the C library you need to use
04:09	amalloy	notostraca: i assume you've read the jna wikipedia page? it explains pretty simply what you have to do to use jna from java
04:09	notostraca	amalloy, thanks for the tip
05:15	AWizzArd\|work	Do I need Marginalia as (dev-) dependency when I already put lein-marginalia ( https://github.com/fogus/lein-marginalia ) as dev-dependency?
05:16	AWizzArd\|work	As I currently understand it, it is enough to have lein-marginalia as dev-dependency, cause that already has Marginalia as dep.
05:16	Raynes	No.
05:16	Raynes	You don't even need that.
05:17	Raynes	lein plugin install lein-marginalia 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT
05:18	Blkt	good morning everyone
05:26	AWizzArd\|work	Raynes: Both should work yes? Installing lein-marginalia as plugin, or have it as a dev-dependency?
05:26	Raynes	Yes.
05:26	AWizzArd\|work	The thing is: in a company environment multiple devs are working on that project.
05:27	AWizzArd\|work	They should all be in sync about the exact version of lein-marginalia and Marginalia. So that's why I need to put it as a dev-dep.
06:01	biallym	Soooo amalloy_ you were probably right >.> java.lang.Object probably will cause trouble
06:01	biallym	with the finalize call
06:01	biallym	since apparently reify creates multiple copies of the object
06:10	biallym	,(do (let [foo (reify java.lang.Object (finalize [this] (println "Finalizing 1 " this)))] foo) (System/gc))
06:10	clojurebot	nil
06:10	biallym	Oh thats right >.<
06:54	Saturnation	damn you samaaron! I did what you said and almost had too much fun with overtone last night. Hard to go to sleep and woke up thinking about it. :)
07:02	samaaron	Saturnation: ha, that's great news :-)
07:03	samaaron	Saturnation: what did you get up to?
07:05	samaaron	lypanov: i'm not using yet, although i know people that are
07:09	biallym	Is there a specific meaning to clojures * syntax other than being a partial implemented version (like in common lisp)
07:10	biallym	(like let* vs let)
07:10	biallym	just asking for idiomatic reasons
07:26	Raynes	biallym: Nope. It is just a convention that usually means "x* is similar to x but isn't actually x and does something slightly different"
07:26	Raynes	For example, ##(list 1 2 [1 2 3]) vs ##(list* 1 2 [1 2 3])
07:26	lazybot	(list 1 2 [1 2 3]) ⇒ (1 2 [1 2 3])
07:27	lazybot	(list* 1 2 [1 2 3]) ⇒ (1 2 1 2 3)
08:00	biallym	Raynes: So it is like common lisp :p
08:37	biallym_	,(. java.lang.reflect.Modifier isPrivate 1)
08:37	clojurebot	false
08:37	biallym_	,(. (identity java.lang.reflect.Modifier) isPrivate 1)
08:37	clojurebot	#<IllegalArgumentException java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: isPrivate for class java.lang.Class>
08:37	biallym_	sooo... identity isn't really an identity function >.>
08:38	Saturnation	,(class (identity java.lang.reflect.Modifier))
08:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
08:39	Saturnation	,(class java.lang.reflect.Modifier)
08:39	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
08:39	Saturnation	weird
08:40	biallym_	it's because the . macro cheats >.<
08:40	biallym_	And I'm trying to get it uncheated
08:41	biallym_	which may involve splicing in the symbol >.>
08:43	biallym_	it mainly has to do with the static part of the class
08:45	biallym_	so the mess fix is ,(eval `(. ~symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1))
08:45	biallym_	,(eval `(. ~symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1))
08:45	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
08:46	biallym_	except not >.>
08:46	samaaron	DENIED!
08:46	Saturnation	so identity isn't broken, the . macro is?
08:46	biallym_	yes, well, sort of
08:46	biallym_	the behavior of the . macro is misleading
08:46	Saturnation	that makes more sense to me
08:46	biallym_	because it does special processing based on the symbol it gives you
08:47	biallym_	symbol you give it*
08:47	biallym_	,(clojure.contrib.macro-utils/macrolet [testing [] `(. ~symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1)] testing)
08:48	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
08:49	biallym_	,(clojure.contrib.macro-utils/macrolet [testing [] `(. ~symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1)] testing)
08:49	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
08:49	biallym_	Argghh darn you emacs yanking >.<
08:50	biallym_	,(clojure.contrib.macro-utils/macrolet [(testing [] `(. ~(symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1))] (testing))
08:50	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.macro-utils>
08:50	biallym_	whats the other bot?
08:50	biallym_	&(println "test")
08:50	lazybot	⇒ test nil
08:50	biallym_	&(clojure.contrib.macro-utils/macrolet [(testing [] `(. ~(symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1))] (testing))
08:50	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.macro-utils
08:50	biallym_	ok so both bots suck
08:51	biallym_	&(require clojure.contrib.macro-utils)
08:51	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.macro-utils
08:51	tomoj	,clojure-version ;; ##clojure-version
08:51	clojurebot	{:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
08:52	biallym_	anyways the solution is `(. ~(symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1)
08:52	tomoj	&clojure-version
08:52	lazybot	⇒ {:major 1, :minor 3, :incremental 0, :qualifier nil}
08:52	biallym_	wich is very stupid >.<
09:07	Raynes	biallym_: Both bots are up to date, you mean.
09:10	biallym_	Yea yea >.> I'm just a 1.2 holdout because nothing works for 1.3 yet (autodoc being one of the most annoying ones, but there are other things that have subtle compatibility problems)
09:15	biallym_	&(clojure.tools.macro/macrolet [(testing [] `(. ~(symbol (.getName java.lang.reflect.Modifier)) isPrivate 1))] (testing))
09:15	lazybot	⇒ false
09:17	Raynes	biallym_: You should check our Marginalia. Once you go marg you never go back.
09:18	biallym_	Well that doesn't fix my 1.2 problem :p
09:18	Raynes	It fixes your problem with compatibility with documentation tools, in any case.
09:19	Raynes	Doesn't fix the rest of them, sadly. :p
09:19	gtrak`	biallym_, what do you need to work on 1.3?
09:21	biallym_	gtrak` give me a moment and I'll find out what is breaking and why
09:37	biallym_	Ok... how do you use the new clojure contrib
09:39	biallym_	like in lein for the dependincies >.>
09:43	biallym_	OK thats freaking rediculous
09:44	biallym_	you should really make it clear what the latest versions are >.<
09:47	biallym_	Ok yea clojure contrib still not working >.>n
09:49	nachtalp	biallym_: have you had a look at this page? http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
09:49	biallym_	Yes and it's pretty much useless
09:50	biallym_	Yes it tells me where each contrib thing went and how to convert it
09:50	biallym_	it was very useful for that
09:50	ckirkendall`	biallym_: ??? it has the latest release on maven and the versions.
09:50	biallym_	but for actually using contrib it was useless
09:50	biallym_	I am not a java person... what is maven and how to find the version information... completely non-obvious
09:51	biallym_	how do i*
09:52	biallym_	Ahh I see now, but how do I get the entire contrib like before?
09:52	ckirkendall`	biallym_: I can help with that. lein can pull dependecies from maven and from clojars so you just put the versions for each item you need in your dependecies with the artfact and group ids.
09:52	biallym_	Thats a really annoying way of adding a new library >.>
09:53	biallym_	or sub library, when I just want to develop with all of contrib
09:53	biallym_	the solution I used was [org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-alpha4"]
09:54	biallym_	which, by the way, is completely wrong all over the place where people were using standalone instead of complete
09:54	biallym_	but whatever it works
09:55	biallym_	except it doesn't does it >.<
09:55	biallym_	sigh I'll use this version each individual library thing >.>
09:55	biallym_	just seems excessive >.<
09:56	ckirkendall`	biallym_: I think that is what the direction is so that individual contribs could have different release cycles.
09:57	biallym_	sigh whatever, you should make it clearer how to find that information for the less java knowlegeable
10:00	biallym_	You know what, it annoyed me so much I'll go write a blog post about it >.>
10:00	ambrosebs	,(symbol ":")
10:00	clojurebot	:
10:01	Saturnation	wasn't contrib just a bit bucket of lots of things in different states of repair?
10:01	Saturnation	s/bit/big
10:02	Saturnation	I hear your pain biallym_, but I think you might be missing the rationale behind the move?
10:02	biallym_	Nah I get the rationale
10:02	Raynes	biallym_: It isn't like the whole contrib move has been silent.
10:02	biallym_	it's just not explaine dhow to move >.>
10:02	Saturnation	and hasn't some of contrib been sucked into core?
10:03	Raynes	Each contrib library is an individual maven artifact now.
10:03	Saturnation	the good bits that is
10:03	biallym_	Find me a reasonable search that finds a good page describing how to move from 1.2.x to 1.3
10:04	biallym_	because I couldn't find it
10:05	gtrak	biallym_, yea, that's kind of a sore point right now, but in like a year people will stop freaking out about it :-)
10:05	biallym_	Haha good point
10:06	biallym_	well I moved over it was fine and i am happy
10:06	gtrak	ah, wonderful
10:06	gtrak	so you're 1.3 now?
10:06	duck1123	The issue with upgrading to 1.3 is you have both the 1.3 changes and the contrib changes to contend with
10:06	biallym_	and I will write a blog post in my formal automata class about how to move for the people who arn't java geniuses because we learn nothing else there >.>
10:07	gtrak	you're using clojure for class?
10:07	biallym_	Literally the teacher doesn't understand what she is teaching and it pisses me off
10:07	biallym_	no
10:07	biallym_	I can just bring laptops
10:07	biallym_	and I would probably be better off practicing writing than paying attention
10:09	biallym_	just as an example day 2: what's the regular expressions which parses the string with an equal number of a's and b's
10:09	gtrak	i always have to relearn regexes anyway
10:09	gtrak	i use them like once a year
10:09	biallym_	hint it takes a grammar
10:09	biallym_	not a regular expression
10:09	biallym_	and when we point that out to her
10:10	gtrak	well, i thought you could have a stateful lexer
10:10	gtrak	that's kind of like a weak grammar theoretically
10:10	biallym_	it's a much lower level class than that
10:10	biallym_	regular epression in the theoretical sense
10:10	Wild_Cat	OR, you could do it the Enterprise way, with a regex that goes (ab)\|(aabb)\|(aaabbb) ..., up to a compile-time defined constant :p
10:11	biallym_	but what about baab?
10:11	gtrak	you can generate the regexes with a rules engine :-)
10:11	Wild_Cat	generate more patterns with an Enterprise Rules Engine! :p
10:11	gtrak	up to the size of the string
10:11	biallym_	she was very insistent you could use a regular expression, I am very insistent she doesn't have an actual ph,d
10:11	Wild_Cat	...and figure out at which size your regex lib dies a horrible death :D
10:19	biallym_	hey this marg thing is pretty nice
10:20	ckirkendall`	biallym_: was she implying you could do it with one regular expression or a series of regular expressions and some code?
10:20	biallym_	a single theoretical regular expression
10:20	biallym_	i.e only operators are
10:21	biallym_	concatenation kleen-star and or
10:21	biallym_	. * +
10:21	biallym_	basically
10:23	biallym_	s/or/alteration
10:23	biallym_	n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression#Formal_language_theory
10:23	biallym_	en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regular_expression#Formal_language_theory
10:23	biallym_	that one ^
10:24	biallym_	thats just day 2
10:24	biallym_	every day she makes clunders which undercut her understanding of the material even more
10:24	biallym_	blunders*
10:24	biallym_	every day I just want the class to end
10:26	gtrak	biallym_, it's just a piece of paper at the end :-), I have 2, they're sitting in a closet
10:28	biallym_	yea but at the same time I could spend my time on much more productive things. I came here to learn, not zone out as the teacher tries to figure out what she is teachning.
10:28	gtrak	college is a reputation transfer engine, imo
10:29	djKianoosh	you get out of it what you put into it, imo
10:29	gtrak	if you can get reputation another way, the only other thing that it's good for is meeting people and giving you a broad base of things you might not otherwise have learned
10:30	Raynes	biallym_: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
10:31	gtrak	consequently, i know a lot of stuff i'll never use, but it's there :-). programming was what I did when I procrastinated
10:32	biallym_	Raynes: I've seen that already >.> And I've already stated my opinions on how it wasn't useful... I thought you were here for that ?
10:32	Saturnation	he was, but probably needs more sleep? :)
10:33	gtrak	maybe it needs to mention leiningen?
10:33	gtrak	i guess clojure the lang is not in bed with leiningen
10:34	Raynes	biallym_: Why isn't it useful? What more do you need?
10:34	Raynes	Because it doesn't list up-to-date versions? I remember some whining about that.
10:34	biallym_	I don't know anything about how a java project works and hence have no clue that maven holds the information for leiningen
10:35	Raynes	For any new clojure contrib library, you can search for it here: http://search.maven.org/
10:35	biallym_	I honestly look at the page and go great, I can change my code, but how do I actually get the right library
10:35	Raynes	You'll be able to find the current version like that.
10:35	Raynes	Or 'lein help search' is also useful.
10:35	gtrak	it makes an assumption that someone who's messed with clojure knows how to find dependencies
10:35	biallym_	I use clojars >.>
10:36	biallym_	and haven't yet run into using maven
10:36	Raynes	You use clojars and maven central.
10:36	Raynes	Leiningen uses both of those by default.
10:36	Raynes	They're both just maven repositories.
10:36	biallym_	yes but that doesn't mean I know how to navigate their system
10:36	gtrak	you can 'use' them without knowing you're using them, that's the problem
10:36	Raynes	I just told you how.
10:36	biallym_	gtrak has the problem
10:37	biallym_	yes you did and the first result I got was org.clojure clojure-contrib 1.2.0
10:37	Raynes	What are you searching for?
10:37	gtrak	so you get into a situation where you cared about the build system enough to get something working, then something changed and you don't know how to fix it since you don't know the first principles
10:37	biallym_	clojure-contrib, but I know the answear is something like clojure.tools.macro
10:37	biallym_	I have it working now
10:38	biallym_	my complaint is that it's not obvious
10:38	biallym_	gtrak: to put it nicely, sure, on the other hand I wanted to touch as little of a build system as I could
10:38	gtrak	right, sometimes you just want to worry about how to get stuff done :-)
10:39	biallym_	Which is probably why I am having troubl packing this library I am workin gon
10:39	gtrak	my border of interest right now is git and hg internals magic
10:39	biallym_	but I'll worry about that later
10:39	biallym_	because It's due wednesday and I don't care about getting off of my own repos just yet
10:40	biallym_	(I am using clojure for an independent study project though :P)
10:41	biallym_	So I may be missing something about marg but only the ns docstring seems to get parsed and stripped from the source code is that on purpose?
10:41	Wild_Cat	biallym_: out of curiosity, what drove you to Clojure if you have no Java experience?
10:41	biallym_	because it has concurrency and it's a lisp
10:41	biallym_	it's also more modern than common-lisp
10:42	biallym_	I also have a decent amount of .net experience to get over a lot of the managed/heavy OO/ humps
10:43	Raynes	That isn't right. lein-marginalia had a bug that caused stuff like that before, but 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT should fix it.
10:43	Raynes	But no, it certainly doesn't do it on purpose. :P
10:44	biallym_	I am also sleep deprived.. just tried to use [lein-marginalia "0.y.1-7SHOT"]
10:44	gtrak	that's brilliant
10:45	Raynes	o.o
10:45	biallym_	yea lein didn;t like that
10:45	Raynes	You can also just do 'lein plugin install lein-marginalia 0.7.0-SNAPSHOT'
10:45	Raynes	That would install it at the user-level so you always have it available for all of your projects.
10:47	biallym_	hmm that didn't fix it, i'll try the user level install instead
10:48	biallym_	nope still didn't fix it
10:48	biallym_	(defn canvas [& {:keys [capabilities]}] "Constructs an AWT canvas." (if capabilities (new GLCanvas capabilities) (new GLCanvas)))
10:48	biallym_	is what I am doing
10:48	biallym_	is that wrong?
10:48	cemerick	Raynes: Thanks for the mention in your post, BTW. That's one scary headshot, though. :-)
10:48	nachtalp	biallym_: docstring should be the 2nd arg i believe
10:48	gtrak	is there some kind of error?
10:49	Raynes	cemerick: Only one I've got. :p
10:49	cemerick	I mean, it's big.
10:49	Raynes	biallym_: Right, the docstring comes before the argument list.
10:49	Raynes	cemerick: Not sure how to control size in octopress. :P
10:49	gtrak	cemerick, I agree it was imposing
10:49	biallym_	Hmm well then >.>
10:49	cemerick	gtrak: much like myself :-P
10:49	gtrak	indeed
10:49	Raynes	I thought I'd just leave it there, since everybody likes that big ol' bug.
10:49	Raynes	mug, even
10:50	biallym_	Ohhh your that Raynes
10:50	Raynes	I think I might be.
10:50	biallym_	with the blog post on hacker news :p
10:50	Raynes	:P
10:50	gtrak	i think the best glamour shot I've seen is this one, though https://thestrangeloop.com/sessions/have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too-meta-programming-java
10:51	gtrak	i find it frightening
10:56	Raynes	cemerick: Look at this way: you've had your face all over Hacker News.
10:59	cemerick	Raynes: does that go both ways? "Ew, I've got hacker news all over me."
10:59	Raynes	Heh
11:00	TimMc	Yeah, better wash with soap.
11:00	TimMc	(but not SOAP)
11:10	duck1123	After using SOAP, I feel dirty
11:10	ckirkendall`	duck1123: that is the kind of SOAP that burns
11:11	TimMc	More importantly, it would react explosively with any HN residues.
11:20	duck1123	So does anyone know what I should do if my project isn't using my log4j.properties? It was working before, but now it wants to use commons-logging and it's logging the debug level.
11:21	duck1123	excluding commons-logging doesn't seem to work
11:27	djKianoosh	duck1123: that might be happening if somehow there's another log4j.properties in your classpath, maybe packaged in another jar file
11:27	joegallo	are you using slf4j as a bridge to log4j? if so, then you need the log4j implementation of slf4j (and you probably also want the jcl over slf4j jar, too)
11:28	duck1123	joegallo: I was using slf4j, but I tried removing it as well.
11:28	duck1123	shouldn't the file in my resources/ dir take precedence?
11:33	duck1123	This project has reached the point where a clean compile is deserving of a good sword fight
11:40	antares_	technomancy_: hey, do you mind a leiningen question here?
11:44	TimMc	antares_: Just go ahead and ask your question; if someone can help they will answer.
11:45	antares_	we recently upgraded from leiningen 1.6.1.1 to 1.6.2 on travis-ci.org
11:45	antares_	and now projects that passed previously fail with slightly obscure issues like http://travis-ci.org/#!/michaelklishin/monger/builds/350740
11:46	antares_	the same setup works for me locally, I am not sure where to start investigating (other than leiningen source)
11:47	duck1123	glad to know it wasn't my project bombing out on travis
11:47	duck1123	just my project
11:49	cemerick	antares_: presumably not all clojure projects are failing, only some?
11:49	antares_	cemerick: exactly
11:50	cemerick	antares_: That error indicates that some dependencies are being used in a Clojure 1.3 project that were AOT-compiled under Clojure 1.2.
11:50	cemerick	IIRC, anyway
11:51	antares_	cemerick: hm, this may be the case. We use standalone leiningen.
11:51	antares_	and it is AOT compiled for 1.2, I am guessing
11:52	cemerick	lein itself uses Clojure 1.2 throughout — but that doesn't prevent it from being used with projects that themselves depend upon 1.3
11:53	antares_	yeah, my 2nd guess is that org.clojure/data.json may be the issue
11:53	antares_	both of my projects that fail depend on it
11:53	antares_	cemerick: if I only really care about 1.3 for my libraries, what would you suggest?
11:53	duck1123	antares_: here's another one if it helps http://travis-ci.org/#!/duck1123/clj-factory/builds/345706
11:53	antares_	trying to make everything pass on 1.2 may take some effort
11:54	Raynes	Well, the point here is that Leiningen shouldn't be causing the problems to begin with.
11:54	Raynes	Might have to wait for technomancy_ to hop in.
11:55	cemerick	That the stack trace ends with something related to native paths makes my spidey sense tingle a bit.
11:56	hiredman	cemerick: nah, that is lein figuring out what arch you are running on
11:56	hiredman	not native code
11:57	cemerick	hiredman: in that case, perhaps this has nothing to do with 1.2/1.3 at all?
11:57	hiredman	I imagine it does
11:57	cemerick	clj-factory's only dependency is midje 1.3-alpha5, which explicitly indicates 1.2.0 and 1.3.0 compatibility…
11:58	duck1123	I think it's 1.3 in the dev dependencies slot, but that doesn't fail for me locally anymore
11:59	tomoj	if the problem were with some dep, why would it work outside of travis-ci?
11:59	antares_	Raynes: right, I figured it but I am not sure what I should do if I don't want/cannot quickly add 1.2 support everywhere
11:59	tomoj	something bad stuck in the local maven repo there?
12:00	antares_	tomoj: that is impossible
12:00	antares_	tomoj: VMs are snapshotted and rolled back after each build
12:00	antares_	0 shared state
12:00	antares_	duck1123: I will let you know when we figure it out :)
12:00	hiredman	the constructor for keyword callsites changed 2010-06-10
12:01	tomoj	antares_: ..and there's nothing in the local maven repo in the snapshot? wonder what could be different..
12:01	hiredman	so it looks like the clojure version there is pre 2010-06-10 (whatever that is)
12:02	hiredman	post 2010-06-10 it takes a single keyword argument, pre it takes a keyword and a number
12:02	antares_	hiredman: there is no clojure at all, we are using standalone lein
12:02	antares_	hiredman: unless ubuntu 11.04 now comes with presintalled clojure, of course
12:02	antares_	10.04 did not
12:03	hiredman	lein is of course written in clojure
12:03	antares_	tomoj: we will find it out, fortunately, I have access to the infrastructure & cookbooks ;)
12:03	hiredman	so it comes with clojure
12:03	antares_	hiredman: which may suggest that lein standalone comes with a pretty dated clojure version?
12:04	hiredman	sure, it is supposed to
12:04	Raynes	The version of Clojure that Leiningen uses is irrelevant.
12:04	hiredman	the project should be running in its own version of clojure
12:04	antares_	hiredman: that project's project.clj depends on clojure 1.3.0
12:04	antares_	hiredman: here's our leiningen cookbook: https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-cookbooks/blob/master/vagrant_base/leiningen/recipes/default.rb
12:05	antares_	hiredman: and we use default node attributes: https://github.com/travis-ci/travis-cookbooks/blob/master/vagrant_base/leiningen/attributes/default.rb
12:06	duck1123	ok, interesting. I'm now getting that same error again for clj-factory locally after I blew away my .m2
12:07	tomoj	oh, the other way around? :)
12:07	antares_	tomoj: no, I think he has failures in both environments now
12:08	duck1123	yes, still investigating
12:08	antares_	duck1123: yup, I see it now, too
12:08	antares_	rm -rf ~/.m2 helped
12:08	tomoj	so any clojure-virgin box will get this error trying to do that?
12:08	antares_	tomoj: correct
12:08	antares_	any box w/o existing maven repo :/
12:09	hiredman	sounds like someone did something naughty like changing a published artifact
12:09	duck1123	ok, I had to exclude org.clojure/clojure from my midje dependency
12:09	duck1123	pushing a new version
12:09	cemerick	hiredman: nah, that never happens :-P
12:09	antares_	duck1123: oh
12:09	antares_	duck1123: good idea
12:10	duck1123	passed
12:10	cemerick	duck1123: instead of adding excludes everywhere, you can just declare your project's dependency on clojure to be e.g. "[1.3.0]"
12:11	duck1123	cemerick: the issue was I had 1.3 in both lib and lib/dev which means that lein is running with 1.3
12:12	tomoj	why does having some dep already in .m2 make that not a problem?
12:12	cemerick	Hrm, maybe leiningen should include [org.clojure/clojure "[1.2.0]"] in the dev-dependencies resolution.
12:13	cemerick	tomoj: hiredman is likely right: someone republished a release version
12:13	cemerick	Maven won't re-download a release artifact.
12:14	cemerick	In an ideal world, repositories should prevent the re-deployment of release artifacts.
12:14	cemerick	s/shoud/would
12:14	jacortinas	Is anyone here using vimclojure?
12:15	jacortinas	vimclojure and nailgun**
12:15	antares_	duck1123: thanks so much! I excluded clojure dependency for clojure.data.json and it passes now: http://travis-ci.org/#!/michaelklishin/monger/builds/350863
12:15	lucian	i've found Emacs+Evil+clojure-mode to be easier to set up :)
12:16	jacortinas	lucian: I have had nothing but an awesome experience with vimclojure, without nailgun. Now that I am trying to set up nailgun and the interactive feature though, it's giving me issues.
12:16	lucian	i just gave up
12:16	jacortinas	been running into this -> java.lang.IllegalStateException: Attempting to call unbound fn: #'vimclojure.nails/NamespaceOfFile
12:16	lucian	(i have other reasons to like Emacs+Evil)
12:16	jacortinas	yeah of course
12:17	lucian	(Evil is a really good vim mode, in case you didn't know)
12:28	devn	technomancy_: I think it's kind of a bummer that emacs-starter-kit is now all hidden away in marmalade. It's less accessible. Also, what gives with it being a starter-kit and turning off the menubar? It's nice to be able to pull down a menu and peek at a keybinding here and there.
12:28	devn	grumble grumble
12:28	Raynes	devn: Please don't. :p
12:29	devn	Raynes: why not?
12:29	Raynes	Because that blog post will be outdated at some point and will add to the list of confusing unofficial outdated documentation on the internet. Why not just contribute to official docs?
12:29	duck1123	devn: blog posts get outdated quickly
12:30	Raynes	Just edit the page on dev.clojure.org or contribute to clojure-mode's README or something.
12:30	devn	Raynes: that's what I was planning on.
12:30	devn	It's going to be its own article though. You can go as far as you want with it, but a full setup is more than a little time consuming.
12:31	Raynes	Oh. I thought when you said 'article' you were implying a blog post.
12:32	devn	nod no worries
12:33	devn	I'm really excited that clooj looks like it might try and implement the DrRacket/DrScheme feature that draws arrows for you to show you where things come from
12:37	devn	like this: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/scope2.png <-the result of hovering over f
12:39	duck1123	it's just finding other instances of the var name, right?
12:39	devn	yeah, scoped search highlight
12:40	devn	it's still really cool, and awfully handy for teaching
12:40	duck1123	oh wait, part of my confusion comes from my inability to read scheme
12:41	duck1123	I was reading f in the second one as an argument, then couldn't figure out what it was called
12:41	technomancy_	devn: menu bars don't scale
12:42	technomancy_	the choice of what commands are in the menu bar is always arbitrary since it's such a small subset of the total commands, so using the menu bar will mean you miss out on lots of other functionality. better to just learn how describe-mode and apropos work
12:42	devn	technomancy_: no disagreement, just sharing what my experience was when I first picked up emacs. The menu bar helped me get to the places I wanted to go. I needed it less and less, but even today I sometimes like to peek at the org-mode menubar here and there.
12:43	devn	I agree it is not a long-term solution, but for a starter kit it doesn't seem like a terrible thing to keep around. That real estate is going to be taken up regardless of whether it's turned on or not.
12:43	technomancy_	what do you mean?
12:43	devn	(on OSX anyway)
12:43	technomancy_	oh, well that's a separate problem
12:43	devn	the menubar is going to be a big white block, or it could contain things related to emacs. perhaps it should stay on in OSX as a default? It doesn't seem like there's any harm in it.
12:44	technomancy	I actually had no idea turning off the menu bar even had any affect on mackosecks
12:45	technomancy	how does it interact with fullscreen?
12:48	duck1123	it's a shame the menubar doesn't work with unity yet
12:49	jacortinas	So no one using vim/vimclojure/nailgun to do their coding? I'm seeing a lot of comments that are basically "Use Emacs".
12:49	TimMc	It is traditional...
12:49	TimMc	There are definitely vim users though.
12:49	technomancy	antares_: any progress? I can take a look
12:49	jacortinas	I don't think it's healthy for the community to basically not even try to support other editors
12:49	antares_	technomancy: we resolved it, thank you
12:50	jacortinas	being so exclusionary turns people off the language.
12:50	TimMc	jacortinas: Well, it's a good thing we don't do that!
12:50	jacortinas	:)
12:50	technomancy	antares_: anything I should be aware of?
12:50	antares_	technomancy: clojure.data.json dragged in clojure 1.2.0 in my case, excluding it helped. It was a real issue I did not notice because my ~/.m2 had all kinds of old junk in it.
12:51	technomancy	antares_: so it wasn't specific to the CI runs then? you were able to repro locally?
12:51	antares_	technomancy: after I removed ~/.m2, yes, I reproduced it locally easily
12:52	technomancy	oh, so there was a screwup with a republished artifact, yuck.
12:52	antares_	technomancy: https://github.com/michaelklishin/monger/commit/c8fe274329d47c1181da1d1a1e3dfe665143cc3e (for the record)
12:52	TimMc	jacortinas: However, I do think it is reasonable to discourage the use of editors that cannot be made s-expression-aware. Emacs, vim, and Eclipse can all at least be made to highlight matching parens.
12:54	jacortinas	TimMc: I agree with that, all of those editors also run reasonably well on Windows. I'm just trying to get some help setting up vim and nailgun, and I'm realizing there are not many good resources.
12:54	jacortinas	I've been using vimclojure and a terminal happily, until I saw this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObR3qi4Guys
12:55	TimMc	It's true, there is much better support for Emacs.
13:24	Saturnation	I hate my job, it keeps me from playing with Overtone...
13:33	duck1123	There needs to be an Overtone/Nagios plugin so that the auto-generated music becomes more and more intense as services start failing and databases catch fire
13:36	ckirkendall`	duck1123: I know that was a joke but I would love something like that.
13:39	jacortinas	you could do something really simple like using ping times as multipliers for randomness or something
13:39	jacortinas	the more time it takes to get a response to more chaotic the music could become
13:39	duck1123	is there a good way to get load averages in clojure?
13:40	duck1123	I was looking, but put that one on the back-burner
13:42	jacortinas	anyone in here have experience getting vim, vimclojure and nailgun working?
13:43	nickmbailey	duck1123: you mean cpu load? you can get it over jmx: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/management/OperatingSystemMXBean.html#getSystemLoadAverage()
13:47	nickmbailey	duck1123: also see the jmx contrib library for fairly easy jmx interaction: https://github.com/clojure/java.jmx
13:47	duck1123	nickmbailey: awesome, I'll check that out
14:04	jacortinas	one last time, anyone using vimclojure and nailgun successfully?
14:05	duck1123	wish I could help you, man
14:05	jodaro	jacortinas: sorry, no experience there, either
14:05	ckirkendall`	ckirkendall`: I use vimclojure but have not tried nailgun sorry
14:05	ckirkendall`	lol I even talk to myself in IRC.
14:05	jacortinas	lol
14:06	jacortinas	thank you guys anyway :)
14:41	technomancy	has anyone done a comparison between drift and lobos?
14:42	technomancy	as a rule I'm a bit wary of libraries that just do a literal port of functionality from (say) rails, but I don't have any specific gripes with rails migrations.
14:43	technomancy	lobos has marginalia docs; nice
14:47	technomancy	heh; the first hit for "clojure lobos vs drift": http://thelastcitadel.com:3000/?page=0&q=(((channel%3Aclojure)+AND+looks)+AND+drift)+AND+lobos
14:48	pjstadig	we've started using drift at work
14:49	pjstadig	i'm not keen on just porting stuff either, but there's also something to be said for lessons learned
14:49	pjstadig	drift is actually i bit more general than just database migrations, which is nice
14:50	technomancy	oh, cool. have you used it for multiple migrations yet?
14:50	pjstadig	we have used it for zero migrations so far
14:50	pjstadig	just getting started with it
14:51	technomancy	did you pick it over lobos specifically because it's not tied to sql?
15:02	technomancy	http://python3wos.appspot.com/ <= how long till we need one of these for Clojure 1.3? =)
15:07	apgwoz	hello
15:08	apgwoz	is there a way to get ring-jetty-adapter to spit out a stack trace instead of just automatically throwing a 500?
15:11	gtrak	there's probably a middleware for that
15:12	gtrak	possibly ring.middleware.stacktrace
15:12	apgwoz	gtrak: i was just about to check in the middleware, which is the only place i hadn't looked
15:12	gtrak	everything in ring is middleware though :-)
15:12	apgwoz	i thought there might be a :debug flag or something for run-server
15:13	gtrak	that would smell of convention over configuration
15:13	apgwoz	sure.
15:13	apgwoz	i don't work with ring often enough
15:14	apgwoz	also, not seeing one, but looking closer
15:14	apgwoz	ah, yes. in ring-devel here we go
15:14	apgwoz	cool
15:15	gtrak	convention over configuration is like... 'we're willing to take the complexity hit to optimizefor 80% of our use-cases"
15:15	apgwoz	i know what convention over configuration is.
15:15	apgwoz	:)
15:15	technomancy	apgwoz: noir does that fwiw
15:15	gtrak	'now go learn our assumptions if you want to get anything done' :-)
15:16	apgwoz	technomancy: the :debug flag?
15:16	amalloy	technomancy: hah that is an excellent page
15:16	technomancy	apgwoz: "dev" mode that does clj-stacktrace-powered 500s
15:16	apgwoz	technomancy: ah, ok. cool
15:17	cemerick	That's a pretty damning illustration of the state of things in Python-land.
15:18	gtrak	yea, I totally shut down when I tried to learn django
15:18	gtrak	but that was before I hit java EE and spring even
15:19	technomancy	ruby equivalent: http://isitruby19.com/
15:19	gtrak	spring security is the worst i've seen for it yet, if you want to do anything clever, you have to ditch the namespace config or learn the whole api at once
15:20	djh__	has anyone had any experience of using clj-redis?
15:21	cemerick	gtrak: what do you use instead for e.g. openid and oauth?
15:21	gtrak	well, we use spring security :-), not for the clojure yet though
15:22	apgwoz	the state of python 3.0 for many people is "don't care, I'm fine with 2.5, 2.6, or 2.7"
15:22	gtrak	actually right now we're just letting apache handle the security for the clojure apps, I was considering an integration with spring sec or shiro if required
15:23	gtrak	security is just hateful though :-), not a fan
15:24	cemerick	gtrak: thanks, hadn't seen shiro before
15:24	gtrak	yea, it looks like its got less baggage
15:24	cemerick	Can't say its API looks any less complicated than spring-security tho
15:26	cemerick	Looks like it's focussed mainly on intranet security — ldap, activedirectory, etc — but no oauth?
15:26	gtrak	looks like it's not there yet
15:27	gtrak	spring sec has oauth
15:27	cemerick	yeah, that's what I use now
15:28	gtrak	are you using the DI along with it?
15:29	cemerick	Yeah. Leaves a bad taste, but it's better than mucking with the API, as you pointed out. :-)
15:30	cemerick	I've never had to stop using the namespace config for anything. (I try to avoid cleverness w.r.t. security stuff. ;-)
15:30	gtrak	yea, I had to implement a redirect on invalid authentication, and associate a user to smartcard cert in a spring mvc app, it was god-awful :-)
15:31	gtrak	the solution involved an AOP-injected state bean to tell something further down the line to redirect on failure
15:32	gtrak	like a really complicated way to approximate a closure
15:36	gtrak	i think the ring approach is much nicer than the dispatcher-servlet
15:36	gtrak	or interceptors or whatever crap spring has :-)
15:37	gtrak	passing around mutable servlet objects is what made it hard
15:40	duck1123	Is OAuth difficult to do in Clojure? I've been planning to do that for my site for a while
15:40	duck1123	I had OpenID working for one of the previous sites I did, but it's so old I doubt I'll be able to salvage much
15:40	gtrak	there's this: https://github.com/mattrepl/clj-oauth
15:41	amalloy	duck1123: oauth and openid are pretty different
15:42	duck1123	amalloy: I know
16:05	mdeboard	So, I'm spitting an HTT request payload to a .txt file, then trying to read it via (read-string (slurp "file.txt")) but am getting an "Unreadable form" error. Is there something I'm missing? the HTTP request is in the form of a clojure map. Is it just that i Need to spit it to "file.clj" instead?
16:08	amalloy	you're printing something that's not readable, like an HTTPConnection or whatever
16:09	amalloy	if you look at the file yourself it should be pretty clear what's illegible; it probably starts with #< (but no guarantees)
16:11	patrkris_	can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong here: http://pastebin.com/eukBQ22J
16:13	gfredericks	patrkris_: well I think that particular error is your import syntax
16:14	patrkris_	I should use ['s instead?
16:14	gfredericks	if you want to import foo.bar.Baz you can (:import foo.bar.Baz) or (:import (foo.bar Baz))
16:14	patrkris_	ah, i have an unnecessary level of parentheses
16:14	gfredericks	no, [] vs () is not significant
16:14	patrkris_	thanks :)
16:15	gfredericks	patrkris_: right, the parens as you have them are usef for importing multiple classes in the same package, which you do correctly in the first import
16:15	gfredericks	though in that case it's still only one class so you're not gaining much
16:15	mdeboard	amalloy_: Negative, at least not visibly. ls
16:15	mdeboard	oop
16:15	patrkris_	yes, thanks again :)
16:15	mdeboard	amalloy_: Starts with {:request ...
16:17	gfredericks	I have a library which requires a config file that I don't want distributed with `lein deploy`, but I do want to be able to `lein run` while developing. Is there any place I can put the config file where `lein run` sees it but I don't have to worry about it slipping into the jar? Am I doing something wrong altogether?
16:17	gfredericks	maybe I need two sub-modules :/
16:17	mdeboard	gfredericks: lazybot uses a lazybot/.lazybot/config.clj structure
16:18	mdeboard	so lazybot/ has .lazybot/ and src/lazybot/stuff.clj
16:18	mdeboard	that .lazybot dir doesn't get sucked up into compilation
16:18	mdeboard	so maybe an example to use
16:18	gfredericks	mdeboard: does .lazybot get on the classpath automatically somehow, or do you hardcode that dir-name?
16:19	mdeboard	it gets cp'd to user.home and that is hardcoded
16:20	mdeboard	Raynes can probably better answer your specific questions
16:20	duck1123	I keep a config.clj at the root of my project and then have code that seeks that file out and loads it
16:20	duck1123	if I package up a jar, that file is not part of the jar
16:21	gfredericks	duck1123: but how would that work from a jar that another project's requiring? It just checks the classpath as well?
16:21	gfredericks	i.e., I want it to work from lein run, but if my jar is being used in some other project it should find the config file on the classpath there
16:21	tolstoy	gfredericks: I think there's a lein setting where you can put files to exclude from the jars.
16:22	duck1123	well, in my case, I require the user of my lib to create their own config file
16:22	tolstoy	gravity: jar-exclusions
16:22	gfredericks	tolstoy: checking. If that's the case I'll be moderately embarassed for not looking first.
16:22	tolstoy	gfredericks: jar-exclusions is the one.
16:22	gfredericks	tolstoy: okay. I will slowly walk away in shame now. Thank you.
16:23	tolstoy	gfredericks: I develop all kinds of techniques, then look in sample-project.clj and erase them all. ;) That or clojure.core.
16:26	amcnamara	dnolen: ambrosebs: I'd love to see how you guys would go about solving this: http://www.4clojure.com/problem/140 (minimizing boolean functions)
16:30	amcnamara	tackling it with core.logic might make for a neat blog post (the 4clj blog needs content)
16:31	dnolen	amcnamara: neat, I didn't know that 4clj had a blog
16:32	amcnamara	its suffering from neglect, I want to start making posts that are related to questions, esp ones that expand on the core and introduce people to new libs
16:33	jodaro	its funny how drastically an implementation changes from thinking about it in the shower to actually making it work in my chair
16:35	blakesmith	jodaro: I take long showers for exactly that reason. ;-)
16:40	duck1123	much better than putting your servers in the bathtub
16:41	jodaro	definitely.
16:44	lnostdal	i suppose (. some-record some-record-field) is faster than (:some-record-field some-record) ? .. this seems to be the case here
16:47	dnolen	lnostdal: well one is field access, the keyword access is optimized over doing the same thing with a plain map but you'll still see a perf hit.
16:48	lnostdal	ok, yeah
16:51	duck1123	is reflected field access still faster? Or does that even apply?
16:53	technomancy	gfredericks: actually it sounds like you want to create a dev-resources/ directory
16:54	technomancy	sorry, test-resources/
16:57	pandeiro	is it possible for lein run to time out while it's grabbing dependencies from clojars?
16:58	dnolen	duck1123: field access via reflection is dog slow.
17:12	gfredericks	technomancy: I thought of that, but assumed `lein run` didn't use test-resources -- am I mistaken?
17:13	technomancy	gfredericks: if you set LEIN_NO_DEV=y, then the test/ stuff won't be on the classpath, but otherwise you're fine
17:13	gfredericks	ah, so it _will_ use test-resources by default
17:13	gfredericks	cool, thanks
17:23	Bahman	Does anyone has any experience using Proguard to obfuscate Clojure programs?
17:23	Bahman	has = have
17:24	gtrak	Bahman, I imagine you'd have to AOT everything
17:25	gtrak	we built a little plugin to compiile all the dependencies of a clojure project, so it's possible
17:26	gtrak	Bahman, but aren't the classfiles obfuscated enough already? seems like proguard would be working at the wrong level of abstraction
17:27	arohner	I'm starting swank in my app in source, i.e. (swank.swank/start-server ..). When testing, it appears swank is keeping the jvm from exiting. Is there a clean way to mark the swank threads as daemon threads?
17:27	cemerick	gtrak: No; a motivated third party could pretty easily produce very sane Clojure source files from classfiles.
17:28	gtrak	cemerick, how would that change with proguard though? maybe if you run the whole clojure core into it as well it would get hard
17:28	cemerick	Yeah, that's the only way to do it.
17:29	gtrak	but it wouldn't know how to obfuscate strings like var names
17:29	Bahman	gtrak: I used JD (an almost simple Java decompiler) and I was able to follow the program logic through decompiled code.
17:29	Bahman	gtrak: Thanks for the hint re AOT.
17:29	gtrak	Bahman, yea, because everything would be plumbing into core functions :-)
17:29	cemerick	A source obfuscator is fairly simple and might yield the sort of results you're interested in.
17:31	duck1123	arohner: are you putting the start code at the top level, or in a -main?
17:31	Bahman	cemerick: Tried putting the whole clojure.jar into Proguard but it didn't work.
17:31	gtrak	you could totally write a source obfuscator as an extension to the clojure compiler, no?
17:31	cemerick	Bahman: What broke, specifically?
17:31	arohner_	duck1123: in an init function that is a dependency for several functional tests
17:31	Bahman	cemerick: Let me reproduce it...
17:31	arohner_	duck1123: I suppose a simple solution would be to just not start swank when testing...
17:32	arohner_	but then I need to figure whether I'm testing
17:32	jaley	is anyone using recent versions of ring and compojure successfully on google app engine or is it known to be broken?
17:33	cemerick	gtrak: A very natural extension to a whole-program optimizer / tree-shaker
17:33	duck1123	arohner: have you tried running (shutdown-agents) after the tests? I do it in reverse, swank when running, but not testing
17:33	cemerick	(all very lofty ideas with very complicated details :-P)
17:34	gtrak	cemerick, right, but the whole 'read into data structures' makes that a lot easier than it could be
17:35	Bahman	cemerick: This is the result of running the uberjar generated by Lein: http://pastebin.com/bcq98CjD
17:35	arohner	duck1123: no, but I did dump the thread list, and filtered on user threads. There are several swank related threads there
17:35	Bahman	No shrinking and optimisation in Proguard...only obfuscation.
17:38	cemerick	Bahman: either it's not finding and munging classname constants
17:39	cemerick	or it's not altering strings passed to Class/forName
17:39	Bahman	I think the latter hunch is right.
17:40	cemerick	IIRC, there's some configuration around that?
17:40	Bahman	cemerick: Checking...
17:44	pandeiro	i keep getting "Premature EOF" while trying to grab dependencies with lein... is that normal or is there probably something wrong on my end?
17:44	Raynes	Well, it obviously isn't normal.
17:46	pandeiro	Raynes: yeah i'm glad you confirmed that
17:46	duck1123	check the parens of your project.clj
17:46	pandeiro	i am trying to use noir and using its own plugin and then calling lein run
17:47	pandeiro	it is getting some deps, but taking forever, while others fail outright
17:47	pandeiro	network issue i guess? clojars.org loads fine in the browser though
17:48	duck1123	sometimes it's helpful to write out your pom file, then use maven's dependency stuff for a bit more control
17:49	duck1123	lein pom && mvn dependency:tree -U
17:50	pandeiro	duck1123: thanks i'll try that after i see if my linode box runs into the same issue
17:55	pandeiro	odd, it couldn't get anything from clojars either... but could from repo1.maven.org
18:16	leafw	can incanter plot a line with the std as a band of color around it?
18:24	duck1123	As far as the logging problem I had this morning, it was Korma that was setting everything to debug level
18:25	Raynes	ibdknox is evil.
18:25	Raynes	duck1123: Were you at the conj? I kept looking for Al Borland but never found him.
18:26	duck1123	No, I was at home hating all your guts
18:26	Raynes	Heh
18:26	gtrak	conj was so awesome :-)
18:26	Raynes	I don't think so, Tim.
18:42	gtrak	logging just sucks in general
18:42	gtrak	i like heroku's approach
18:44	duck1123	well, now I'm getting no logging at all, but it's past 6 and I've changed gears
18:45	gtrak	seems like it needs to work at a higher level
18:45	gtrak	maybe it does, but the defaults aren't suitable
19:08	alexbaranosky	does anybody but me think it would be great to have a heredoc reader macro in Clojure?
19:12	jacortinas	anyone have experience of getting the latest vimclojure working with nailgun?
19:13	alexbaranosky	not having a nice syntax for writing strings feels so 90'
19:13	alexbaranosky	s
19:14	amalloy	heredocs are "nice syntax"?
19:14	technomancy	if you use paredit it automatically escapes " inside strings
19:14	technomancy	FWIW
19:23	brehaut	simple solution; use smart quotes inside your docstrings
19:25	tmciver	smart quotes?
19:28	brehaut	“smart quotes”
19:28	technomancy	more like “smart” quotes
19:28	tmciver	looks like curved quotes that are different from the quotes used to enclose the doc string . . .
19:28	brehaut	typographically correct, annoying to type quotes
19:29	tmciver	How DO you type them?
19:29	brehaut	they are. and elipsis isnt 3 dots either ;)
19:29	tmciver	3 space-separated periods
19:29	brehaut	on a mac it's opt + [ and opt + { for doubles and opt + ] and opt + } for singles
19:29	brehaut	…
19:30	hiredman	brehaut: not on my mac
19:30	brehaut	you can also do those french quotes « » with opt + \ and opt + \|
19:30	brehaut	hiredman: rebound ?
19:30	hiredman	hmmm, not in iterm
19:31	brehaut	try in textedit?
19:31	hiredman	ah, yes, because opt is meta
19:31	brehaut	aha of course
19:31	amalloy	tmciver: easy to type. fire up ms word, type some quotes, copy-paste into emacs
19:31	brehaut	oh, and a true elipsis is opt + ; (although text substitution will also take care of it in lion)
19:32	hiredman	or if you have irssi setup to do the substitution
19:33	tmciver	amalloy: easy-peasy!
19:33	brehaut	i think the compose key in linux lets you do similar things
19:34	brehaut	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key
19:34	TimMc	I just memorize Unicode code points. -.-
19:36	leafw	is there a lazy version of reverse?
19:36	leafw	,(doc reverse)
19:36	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq of the items in coll in reverse order. Not lazy."
19:37	technomancy	leafw: how would that work?
19:37	leafw	technomancy: by asking for count - i ?
19:37	TimMc	leafw: If you have a vector, rseq is good.
19:37	TimMc	,(doc rseq)
19:37	clojurebot	"([rev]); Returns, in constant time, a seq of the items in rev (which can be a vector or sorted-map), in reverse order. If rev is empty returns nil"
19:37	technomancy	leafw: merely calling count on a lazy seq forces the entire thing
19:37	leafw	yes but if the seq is not lazy, the reverse can be lazy
19:37	TimMc	...depending on exactly what you want.
19:38	technomancy	oh, I see; yeah.
19:38	alexbaranosky	is the dev goole group the place to ask about adding a heredoc reader macro?
19:39	leafw	TimMc: rseq will do, thanks
19:55	sritchie	ambrosebs, I did some weekend work I think you might find interesting
19:55	sritchie	I pulled the macros behind clojure-koans out into its own project, so you can write koans for any clojure library: https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koan-engine
19:56	sritchie	Raynes, the template project is pretty much set, I think! https://github.com/functional-koans/koan-template
19:56	sritchie	and finally, a lein-koan plugin: https://github.com/functional-koans/lein-koan
20:01	hiredman	so, what is the recommended way to print objects that preserves metadata and does not overly specify types?
20:02	amalloy	hiredman: bind print-meta to true?
20:03	hiredman	and there is no pr* variant for it?
20:03	amalloy	we have too many pr* variants already imo
20:03	hiredman	I suppose that'll do
20:03	hiredman	oh really?
20:04	hiredman	how many are there?
20:04	amalloy	i'm mostly thinking of pr, pr-str, prn, prn-str, print, print-str, println, println-str
20:05	hiredman	ah, yes, the -strs
20:05	amalloy	apparently there are also print-simple, print-ctor, printf, print-dup
20:06	amalloy	anyway, we have three main "options" for printing, and 2^3 print functions. this is why i argue strongly against people who beg for def-
20:06	hiredman	print-simple and print-ctor are part of the implemention of print-method or print-dup
20:07	amalloy	i knew that about print-ctor, didn't know about print-simple. but they're publicly exposed in clojure.core
20:14	gfredericks	I just learned me some new print functions.
20:14	gfredericks	I don't know that I have much use for them though
20:18	accel	is there a way to use somethign like nailgun and keep a constantly running clojure server that I just "telnet" to whenever I need to execute a piece of code?
20:19	accel	I don't want to reload the jvm on every execution of Hello World
20:19	cemerick	It seems like all the -strs should have been dropped once with-out-str came along.
20:20	mdeboard	accel: with emacs there is for sure, I guess there might be one for vim
20:20	technomancy	accel: jark is designed with that use case
20:23	accel	technomancy: jark is exactly waht I wanted; thans!
20:23	accel	k
20:23	accel	(some letters defy space time boudns)
20:23	hiredman	cemerick: well, pr-str is great for logging, if the thing you log might be a lazy seq
20:23	hiredman	,(str (range 10))
20:23	clojurebot	"clojure.lang.LazySeq@9ebadac6"
20:23	hiredman	,(pr-str (range 10))
20:23	clojurebot	"(0 1 2 3 4 ...)"
20:23	accel	so I've read http://clojure.org/getting_started ... but how do I actually install clojure and get clj?
20:24	brehaut	,(apropos #"-str$")
20:24	clojurebot	(with-in-str with-out-str print-str prn-str pr-str ...)
20:24	cemerick	hiredman: If logging means printing to out I guess?
20:24	hiredman	cemerick: no, no
20:24	hiredman	(log/info (range 10))
20:25	hiredman	vs (log/info (pr-str (range 10)))
20:25	cemerick	oh, misread your msg
20:26	hiredman	actually I use pr-str like that by reflex and have been for some time, possibly tools.logging does a better job logging lazy seqs these days
20:27	accel	hmm, basically, I need leiningen?
20:28	hiredman	accel: no, download the clojure jar, type java -jar clojure.jar
20:28	Raynes	sritchie: Hah. A young jedi. I haven't even seen starwars.
20:28	hiredman	now you have a repl, go to town
20:28	accel	that gets me a repl
20:29	accel	how do I get clj
20:29	accel	and compiling stuff?
20:29	hiredman	what do you want to do?
20:29	Raynes	Just get leiningen.
20:29	accel	i want to write programs in clojure
20:29	accel	not just use the repl
20:29	hiredman	all you need is the repl
20:29	hiredman	what programs?
20:29	accel	actually; i have a bunch of haskell code I want to convert over to clojure
20:29	accel	I want to be able to develop in vim; use makefiles, etc ...
20:29	accel	the repl is nice, but I need more
20:30	hiredman	really, none of that requires a repl, all you need is a nice editor
20:30	hiredman	do you have dependencies to manage?
20:31	brehaut	is there a better way of taking a symbol without a namespace and creating a new symbol with the same name but a different namespace than (symbol "ns" (name old-sym)) ?
20:31	hiredman	not that I am aware of
20:32	brehaut	thanks
20:32	weavejester	Leiningen isn't necessary, but is recommended. It's useful for managing Clojure projects and dependencies.
20:32	hiredman	,(symbol 'foo) ;; works
20:32	clojurebot	foo
20:32	accel	I have no dependencies to manage
20:32	hiredman	,(symbol 'foo 'foo)
20:32	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
20:32	hiredman	,(symbol "foo" 'foo)
20:32	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to java.lang.String>
20:32	technomancy	weavejester: how are you finding lobos?
20:32	weavejester	Using the Clojure jar on its own, you can either run a repl, or run a script.
20:32	hiredman	accel: then you just need an editor
20:32	accel	how do I run a script? actually, where is the documentation for this?
20:33	hiredman	java -jar clojure.jar --help
20:33	accel	readme.txt only says To run: java -cp clojure-${VERSION}.jar clojure.main
20:33	accel	hmmm
20:33	hiredman	sure
20:33	weavejester	technomancy: The DSL I like, the migrations not so much, but I'm thinking that migrations should be an independent library.
20:33	technomancy	clojure really has had no effort put into its out-of-the-box experience
20:34	hiredman	that is equivalent to what I have been saying
20:34	Raynes	Leiningen is the answer to life, the universe, everything.
20:34	technomancy	weavejester: do you see it as being complementary to korma?
20:34	accel	technomancy: I think it's a feature; to weed out the weak
20:34	hiredman	accel: sure
20:34	accel	technomancy: they should make the installation process require writing macros
20:35	weavejester	technomancy: As far as I can see, Korma only handles queries and inserts, not schema design, whilst Lobos is all about creating tables etc.
20:35	technomancy	weavejester: right, seems like there's not much overlap
20:35	hiredman	it's really not hard at all, I don't understand why everyone wrings their hands and wails about "the noobs"
20:35	weavejester	technomancy: Migrations I think are something separate again; in theory there's nothing tying migrations to SQL.
20:35	technomancy	I was asking ibdknox if he had plans to add schema manipulation to korma, but it looks like lobos has it pretty well covered
20:36	hiredman	'java -jar clojure.jar' and you have a repl, being a programmer you already have an editor, so now you have a repl and an editor, and you are set
20:37	Raynes	Until you have dependencies and an actual project.
20:37	Raynes	Then you have to understand and manage the classpath.
20:37	technomancy	hiredman: really though, we aren't savages. line history is a requirement.
20:37	brehaut	Raynes: acres of bash script
20:37	accel	Raynes: you've convinced me I need lein
20:37	Raynes	Which is generally impossible without maven if you plan to distribute code.
20:37	tensorpudding	you still haven't covered how you'd make your clojure project into a .jar
20:37	weavejester	technomancy: Yeah. I think I'm going to be using Lobos to write the SQL part of my migrations.
20:37	hiredman	technomancy: how so?
20:37	hiredman	technomancy: requirement to do what?
20:37	technomancy	hiredman: I mean you need to at least mention rlwrap
20:37	technomancy	a requirement to be taken seriously
20:38	hiredman	by who?
20:38	technomancy	programmers?
20:38	Raynes	Creating jar files, executable jar files, war files, complicated build processes, etc.
20:38	brehaut	also, does anyone else every want an apropos that includes the namespace the symbol is found in ?
20:38	Raynes	clojure.jar is not going to be sufficient for much of anything, realistically.
20:38	duck1123	if all you have is a clojure repl and notepad, rlwrap is vital
20:38	tensorpudding	java sure is cute like that
20:38	Raynes	Unless, of course, all you want is a REPL with nothing but Clojure on the classpath.
20:38	hiredman	duck1123: not true
20:38	hiredman	at all
20:38	weavejester	It's harder to setup Clojure with the jar than Lein, IMO.
20:39	Raynes	It really isn't just Java. Every language has some kind of dependency system.
20:39	hiredman	weavejester: no way
20:39	Raynes	They hve to.
20:39	Raynes	have*
20:39	hiredman	lein brings in all these maven concepts
20:39	hiredman	which are very useful, and you will want
20:39	hiredman	but not required by any means
20:40	technomancy	weavejester: I wonder if drift and lobos could also be seen as complementary
20:40	hiredman	it is very doable to write useful clojure code (code that delivers features) without any of that
20:41	weavejester	hiredman: Lein's pretty easy to setup. You just download and run a script, IIRC. Running the Clojure jar is pretty much the same thing.
20:41	technomancy	except with the clojure jar you will probably end up downloading the clojure.zip file, which has a readme that contains instructions that don't work.
20:42	hiredman	technomancy: really?
20:42	technomancy	hiredman: for true. =(
20:42	weavejester	technomancy: Drift seems to attempt to do migrations and schema design, and Lobos does too. They're more competing, I think.
20:42	technomancy	at least, that's what someone reported on the mailing list
20:42	hiredman	technomancy: works for me
20:42	technomancy	weavejester: I didn't see any schema design in drift when I was looking at it this morning
20:42	weavejester	technomancy: Really? Oh, no, you're right, sorry.
20:43	weavejester	technomancy: I was thinking of something else.
20:43	hiredman	the readme.txt has instructions for buidling with ant and with maven, both work for me
20:43	accel	Raynes: is there a way to use Lein with jark?
20:43	technomancy	accel: the lein integration in jark is still being developed
20:43	weavejester	technomancy: I like Drift's separation, but I don't like using multiple files for migrations.
20:44	technomancy	accel: last I checked (~3 months ago) it wasn't working for running leiningen tasks
20:44	technomancy	it might work for simpler things though
20:44	accel	so basically, lein is equiv to cabal ?
20:44	technomancy	weavejester: I spent a while trying to get drift working using raw c.j.jdbc, but without lobos it was just too annoying
20:45	hiredman	sort of
20:45	hiredman	it is kind of a shim on top of maven's dependency stuff
20:45	technomancy	total chicken/egg problem since you have to have a table in which to store your schema version number, but you can't use drift to create that table yet.
20:45	technomancy	looks like they fixed the Clojure readme; that's good.
20:46	accel	btw; where the fuck did ein install everythin?
20:46	weavejester	technomancy: I've been working on a migration library called Ragtime that'll rely on Lobos for any schema building. It takes a different approach to Drift.
20:46	technomancy	that was my first patch submitted to Clojure ~3 years ago; fixing busted readme insntructions
20:46	technomancy	weavejester: how so?
20:46	alexbaranosky	~/.m2 folder
20:46	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:46	alexbaranosky	accel: ~/.m2 folder
20:47	hiredman	accel: see, you could have the jar file and a repl running and be rolling along writing code right now
20:47	technomancy	apparently the scala guys have a fork of jline that is actually pretty good
20:48	hiredman	doesn't jruby have one too?
20:48	technomancy	I think jruby has real readline
20:48	accel	hiredman: lol
20:48	tensorpudding	lein can build, lein can fetch deps, lein can run a swank server for you
20:48	weavejester	technomancy: Migrations in Ragtime are loaded from a namespace, rather than from a directory of files.
20:48	accel	alexbaranosky: ~/.m2 is empty
20:48	accel	where did lein put clojure though?
20:48	hiredman	technomancy: nah, they use jline
20:48	accel	ie. "lein repl" <-- how the fuck does lein find clojure?
20:48	hiredman	accel: tone down the language a little
20:48	technomancy	hiredman: oh, huh. scala's has programmable completion
20:48	Raynes	It comes with Clojure.
20:49	technomancy	accel: why do you care?
20:49	accel	technomancy: I care how it's setup
20:49	weavejester	technomancy: They're also first class objects, which... I don't think they are in Drift?
20:49	accel	just curious
20:49	Raynes	Or, Clojure comes with it.
20:49	accel	hiredman: noted
20:49	accel	Clojure comes with lein?
20:49	accel	i'm confused
20:49	amalloy	lein bundles a clojure version
20:49	Raynes	Because it is... written in it.
20:49	technomancy	weavejester: I think in drift they're defined as just an up and down defn inside a given namespace
20:49	Raynes	Which means it kind of sorta needs it.
20:49	tensorpudding	lein is a standalone jar
20:49	jacortinas	Could someone point me to a good example of a compojure web application? Something a little more complex would be awesome.
20:50	technomancy	weavejester: what are migrations made of in ragtime?
20:50	accel	okay, so I have ~/local/bin/lein ... where is the lein.jar file and lein's versino of clojure stored?
20:50	amalloy	jacortinas: www.4clojure.com www.github.com/4clojure/4clojure perhaps?
20:50	technomancy	I kinda like the "give me a namespace that has $X and $Y defined" model in general.
20:50	weavejester	technomancy: In Ragtime they're types implementing a Migration protocol.
20:50	technomancy	it works really well for lein tasks
20:50	jacortinas	amalloy: awesome thanks :)
20:50	accel	~/.lein
20:50	accel	I am now happy
20:50	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
20:50	Raynes	Though 4Clojure will be using noir as soon as I get a chance to make it so.
20:50	amalloy	over my dead body, man
20:51	jacortinas	Raynes: Why the switch?
20:51	jacortinas	lol
20:51	jacortinas	so noir just uses compojure correct?
20:51	Raynes	Because Noir is awesome and Chris Granger is my friend.
20:51	jacortinas	just adds some conventions
20:51	technomancy	weavejester: hmm... I don't see what protocols bring to the table here
20:51	technomancy	there's no fancy dispatch going on; just two operations
20:51	tensorpudding	when you build deps for a project it copies the correct version of clojure.jar into the classpath
20:51	Raynes	noir is a higher-level and more put together framework on top of compojure.
20:51	amalloy	noir is better than what we're doing now, i'm fairly sure. but i'm not excited to rewrite everything to use noir instead
20:51	sunng	jacortinas: clojuresphere could be a good demo https://github.com/jkk/clojuresphere
20:52	jacortinas	sunng: thank you
20:52	jacortinas	:)
20:52	Raynes	amalloy: I think you'll be happy with how simplified things will be.
20:52	jacortinas	Raynes: I felt like the example noir blog was kind of mixing concerns
20:52	weavejester	technomancy: Well, you can create a function that returns a migration, for instance.
20:52	seancorfield	i wonder what 4clojure would look like in FW/1? :)
20:53	technomancy	weavejester: seems like that introduces a discoverability problem too though
20:53	jacortinas	Raynes: maybe it's my OO rails background, but I hated seeing form validation stuff in the namespace that is pretty much reserved for db interactions
20:53	sunng	noir to compojure is something like django to bottle if you are familiar with python web frameworks
20:53	weavejester	technomancy: So you could have a `create-table` function or macro that would return a migration that would create the table when (up migration) is executed, and drop the table when (down migration) is executed.
20:54	weavejester	technomancy: By having migrations as first-class objects, you can build abstractions around them. Also you can bundle them in a jar.
20:54	technomancy	you can already put namespaces in a jar though
20:54	technomancy	defn is the best abstraction in all of Clojure =)
20:54	hiredman	you can also pass namespaces around
20:54	hiredman	,ns
20:54	clojurebot	#<Namespace sandbox>
20:55	weavejester	technomancy: But you can't search a directory for resources, right?
20:55	hiredman	,(find-ns 'clojure.core)
20:55	clojurebot	#<Namespace clojure.core>
20:55	technomancy	weavejester: sure; that's how "lein help" works
20:55	accel	how do I install vimclojure?
20:55	accel	do I place it in ~/.vim and unzip?
20:55	jacortinas	accel: for the non-interactive stuff yeah
20:56	jacortinas	it's that simple
20:56	weavejester	technomancy: How does that work? I didn't think it was possible to iterate through resources on a classpath?
20:56	hiredman	"very slowly"
20:56	weavejester	technomancy: Other than explicitly checking to see if its a jar or dir and then iterating through them.
20:57	technomancy	weavejester: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/util/ns.clj
20:57	headius	technomancy, hiredman: we still use jline 1.0ish
20:57	technomancy	it's really slow if you don't require everything to be grouped under a prefix, if you do it's not so bad
20:57	technomancy	headius: have you looked at scala's?
20:57	weavejester	technomancy: Oh, I think tools.namespace does something similar to that, right?
20:57	hiredman	:(
20:58	headius	technomancy: not really...there's an FFI-based wrapper around actual readline I've considered
20:58	technomancy	weavejester: tools.namespace does, but without allowing a prefix. see the comment at the top of the file
20:58	amalloy	weavejester: he has a comment in there explaining why tools.namespace is no good
20:58	weavejester	technomancy: Ahh
20:58	hiredman	this classpath walking stuff is icky, because really who cares about classpaths? the real way things are loaded is via classloaders
20:58	headius	if scala's doesn't require scala, it could be an option
20:58	hiredman	and classloaders don't give you a good way to iterate
20:58	accel	so I'm following https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/doc/TUTORIAL.md : after I have written code in core.clj ... how do I run it?
20:59	weavejester	technomancy: Still... if a migration is a namespace, that doesn't seem as composable as a namespace as a type.
20:59	technomancy	headius: I don't think it does; someone's integrating it to Clojure here: https://github.com/trptcolin/reply
20:59	technomancy	weavejester: a namespace is just a fancy map of symbols to values
20:59	seancorfield	accel: if you have a -main function you can do lein run -m projname.core
21:00	weavejester	technomancy: Sure, but they don't seem to be very suited to being created on the fly.
21:00	headius	there's also a jline2 in github.com/jline
21:00	hiredman	a namespace is a compilation environment
21:00	headius	I have no idea what all is different/improved
21:00	hiredman	weavejester: very doable though
21:00	technomancy	I do on-the-fly creation of namespaces in slamhound; it's not bad at all
21:01	technomancy	plus you can recompile at will without having to think about bizarre equality issues that come from recompiling a deftype and wondering about whether the old one has been GC'd yet
21:01	accel	seancorfield: I don't have a main function
21:01	weavejester	You'd still have the problem of discovery though. Doesn't Drift assume one file per migration?
21:01	accel	seancorfield: I just wrote in clojure.clj: (println "hello world")
21:01	accel	seancorfield: it seems like there's somethinr trivial I'm missing
21:01	accel	where am I screwing up?
21:01	hiredman	accel: see, you could have avoided all this, and just be running a nice simple repl
21:01	accel	someone please point out my idiocy
21:01	accel	hiredman: lol
21:01	sunng	accel: add a -main function of use lein-exec plugin
21:02	seancorfield	accel: this is why most folks start with the repl :)
21:02	technomancy	weavejester: leiningen.util.ns/namespaces-matching basically gets you that
21:02	accel	i actually like lein
21:02	hiredman	seancorfield: they don't though
21:02	accel	even before it works
21:02	technomancy	weavejester: drift's does assume they're on the filesystem, which I think is bad
21:02	sunng	accel: sorry, or use lein-exec plugin
21:02	seancorfield	lein repl; (use 'projname.core)
21:02	seancorfield	:)
21:02	technomancy	but it's not a flaw of the migrations-as-a-namespace model, just of drift's implementation
21:02	hiredman	seancorfield: someone goes "oh, you need lein" then someone elses says "oh you need X" and someone else says "oh you need to do W and Z with namespaces" etc etc
21:03	hiredman	all of which is not required at all
21:03	seancorfield	hiredman: how about "this is why most folks are told to start with the repl :)" ? :)
21:03	technomancy	headius: it sounds like the main improvements are around flexibility with completion
21:03	weavejester	technomancy: Agreed. But you'd still use a namespace to group together a common set of functions, rather than a protocol?
21:03	technomancy	weavejester: yeah, definitely
21:03	headius	technomancy: well we certainly could use an updated
21:03	weavejester	I mean, a protocol like:
21:03	hiredman	java -jar clojure.jar some-file-full-of-clojure-forms.clj
21:03	headius	there's just a half-dozen forks so it's hard to know which to use
21:03	weavejester	(defprotocol Migration (up [m]) (down [m]))
21:03	seancorfield	hiredman: well, it doesn't help that clojure.org/getting_started has instructions that don't actually work now...
21:03	seancorfield	clojure.jar is the wrong filename
21:04	weavejester	That's surely what protocols were made for?
21:04	weavejester	Doing something like:
21:04	hiredman	seancorfield: whatever
21:04	weavejester	(in-ns 'blah) (defn up ...) (defn down ...)
21:04	accel	$ cat core.clj
21:04	accel	(println "Hello World")
21:04	accel	do I need more in my core.clj file?
21:04	accel	I have a ":main manip.core" in my project.clj file already
21:04	weavejester	And then searching the namespace for up and down functions seems kinda the wrong tool for the job.
21:05	hiredman	accel: if you are using lein you must have deleted the namespace declaration
21:05	hiredman	put it back
21:05	seancorfield	only today / yesterday someone tried to follow the getting started instructions and it didn't work - we shouldn't then be surprised when folks ask basic questions (when java -jar clojure.jar ... is not the correct answer :) )
21:05	technomancy	weavejester: protocols are more about defining an open extension point with fast dispatch IMO
21:05	accel	??? lein never created a core.clj file for me
21:05	accel	I created it by hand
21:05	seancorfield	accel: are you using leiningen?
21:05	weavejester	technomancy: Why doesn't that apply to migrations?
21:06	hiredman	accel: did you run 'lein new'?
21:06	technomancy	weavejester: because you're not going to extend that protocol to another type
21:06	hiredman	seancorfield: he is, against my advice, but following the advice of others who are no longer paying attention
21:06	technomancy	there's no data to go with it
21:06	weavejester	technomancy: Hum...
21:07	weavejester	technomancy: But how would you implement an anonymous migration? Or don't you think there's a need?
21:08	seancorfield	lein new someproj; cd someproj; edit src/someproj/core.clj; add (println "Hello World!"); lein repl; (use 'someproj.core) -- that should load the file and print Hello World! yes?
21:08	technomancy	weavejester: you could just call future in your up defn
21:08	hiredman	technomancy: anonymous, not async
21:08	technomancy	oh, gotcha
21:08	accel	I did the following: (1) lein new manip (2) cd manip (3) edit core.clj // (ns manip.core) (println "hello world") (4) edit project.clj // :main mainp.core (5) lein run (6) get error about main class not found.
21:09	weavejester	technomancy: I mean... there's a lot of repetition in migrations. For instance, if your "up" function creates an index, your "down" function is going to remove it.
21:09	hiredman	accel: src/manip/core.clj
21:09	seancorfield	lein run expects a -main function in the specified namespace: (defn -main [] (println "Hello World!"))
21:09	weavejester	technomancy: So you need some way of writing a function that will generate a migration for you.
21:09	technomancy	if you need to create a migration at runtime, I suspect create-ns would have you covered, but I haven't thought it all the way through
21:10	technomancy	weavejester: seems like ring-style middleware could have you covered there
21:10	weavejester	technomancy: With protocols, you can just reify
21:10	hiredman	technomancy: you could just extend weavejester's protocol to namespaces
21:10	amalloy	haha excellent
21:11	accel	hiredman: $ cat core.clj
21:11	accel	(ns manip.core)
21:11	accel	(defn -main [& args] (println "Hello World"))
21:11	technomancy	hiredman: ahh... clever
21:12	accel	http://hpaste.org/54629 <-- my errors
21:12	seancorfield	accel: src/manip/core.clj or src/core.clj ?
21:12	accel	manip = directory lein created
21:12	weavejester	hiredman: That's an interesting idea :) - I'm not sure what it would accomplish though.
21:12	accel	the file is in manip/core.clj
21:12	technomancy	weavejester: it depends on the reasons you want anonymous migrations in the first place I guess. Haven't thought it through myself, I just have a strong preference for using defn for everything if at all possible.
21:12	seancorfield	accel: manip/src/manip/core.clj yes?
21:12	accel	ARGH
21:12	technomancy	everyone understands defn and namespaces; it doesn't bring any new types to the table.
21:12	accel	I'm an idiot
21:12	accel	it worked now
21:13	seancorfield	yay!
21:13	accel	seancorfield , hiredman : I was editing manip/core.clj instead of manip/src/manip/core.clj -- thanks for your patience + help
21:13	accel	I'm going to go kick something ahrd with my shin now
21:13	seancorfield	np, the project structure isn't obvious unless you've had experience with that sort of structure...
21:13	accel	yeah; I felt it was something obvious after you get it, like hjkl movement keys in vim
21:14	accel	is it just me, or does this website design: http://forge.scilab.org/index.php/p/jlatexmath/ : make it look scammy?
21:14	weavejester	technomancy: Namespaces don't seem very suitable for something generated on the fly by a function.
21:15	technomancy	weavejester: maybe. I need to think through the concrete use cases.
21:15	weavejester	technomancy: I want migrations to be composable, generated by higher-order functions, and although you can do those things with namespaces, it seems easier to do with types and protocols.
21:15	weavejester	technomancy: Let me know if you come up with anything good!
21:15	technomancy	another option is a multimethod with :up and :down methods
21:15	technomancy	but what I need right now is dinner; would be happy to continue tomorrow.
21:16	hiredman	I don't really understand the desire for either namespaces or types
21:16	technomancy	a multimethod lets you group many in a single file, so I like that a lot better.
21:16	duck1123	I'm currently goiing the multimethod route
21:16	technomancy	hiredman: ask joegallo what he did with pluggable doric formatters; I think it turned out pretty well.
21:17	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading
21:17	weavejester	technomancy: Hmm...
21:17	hiredman	sure, I was sitting next to him while he was writing it
21:17	hiredman	a migration is an action for up and an action for down
21:18	hiredman	{:up … :down …}
21:18	weavejester	hiredman: Yep. Plus an identifier.
21:18	accel	is there anythign I can do to reduce lein startup time? for example, "time lein help" returns: lein help 5.96s user 0.15s system 219% cpu 2.790 total ... which is kind of ridiculous
21:18	hiredman	{:up … :down … :id …}
21:18	weavejester	So: {:id ..., :up ..., :down ...}
21:18	weavejester	Yeah.
21:19	hiredman	accel: jvm startup time is a pain
21:19	sunng	accel: try lein interactive
21:19	weavejester	Which maybe is better than a protocol/reify
21:19	seancorfield	accel: depends on your workflow - i tend to leave a lein repl open all the time and if you're running tests etc, you can use lein interactive
21:19	weavejester	It wouldn't actually change any functions I've written if I used a hash with functions in instead.
21:20	weavejester	Hm...
21:20	accel	so I have 16GB of RAM. Is there a way to tell lein to buidl a jar of everything it needs, and shove it in RAM?
21:21	weavejester	hiredman: You might have a point with just making it a map of {:up ... :down ... :id ...}
21:22	weavejester	hiredman: It would be first-class... and more composable... more discoverable...
21:24	weavejester	I'll sleep on it, I guess :)
21:31	seancorfield	accel: as you may guess from the lack of responses, you can't really put a JAR in RAM - except thru Java's normal class loading process, of course... which I suspect doesn't help you...
21:32	seancorfield	if you want to just run clojure code without the jvm startup, you might look at the jark project which uses persistent (long-running) jvms and sends code to them to be executed...
21:32	seancorfield	accel: http://icylisper.in/jark/
22:02	rickr	Can someone explain why I'm seeing the exception below?
22:02	rickr	=>(defmacro t[m] (for [k (keys m)] k))
22:02	rickr	=>(t {:a 1 :b 2 })
22:02	rickr	=>(def c {:a 1 :b 2 })
22:02	rickr	=> (t c)
22:02	rickr	IllegalArgumentException Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol clojure.lang.RT.seqFrom (RT.java:487)
22:03	blakesmith	Anyone have a favorite cassandra client library?
22:05	moogatronic	Any Overtone hackers around tonight?
22:05	trptcolin	blakesmith: i wrote a crappy one. if i was going to do stuff w/ cassandra i'd check out https://github.com/pingles/clj-hector
22:06	trptcolin	Hector is pretty badass
22:06	trptcolin	e.g. handles failover for client connections
22:08	blakesmith	trptcolin: Cool, I gave it a whurl and ran into some issues: https://gist.github.com/1403168
22:09	blakesmith	I didn't want to bother debugging if there was something better out there. ;-)
22:13	rickr	Odd, so macro args are literally replaced then? Since changing 'm' to '(eval m)' fixes it.
22:13	tmciver	rickr: I know almost nothing about macros but I think you need to put a quote in the macro body somewhere.
22:13	trptcolin	hmm, bummer. i get sl4j warnings, nothing fatal though.
22:15	brehaut	rickr: (defmacro t[m] `(for [k# (keys ~m)] k#)) is what you want i think
22:16	brehaut	rickr: ` to syntax quote the form , ~ to unquote the argument m, k# to get a gensym to get a symbol for the scope
22:16	duck1123	Has anyone else found that the newer version of korma wants to quote it's table names with \"
22:16	rickr	tmciver: ty ..correct the quote would be needed if I didn't want to eval the result, but in my contrived example i was focusing on the arg treatment.
22:17	jcrossley3	rickr: brehaut: or just use defn in that case?
22:18	rickr	brehaut: et. al. ty
22:18	brehaut	jcrossley3: i presume that hes trying to understand macros, otherwise why even defn? keys is already a function
22:18	blakesmith	trptcolin: What version of clojure are you running?
22:19	dnolen	this is funny, http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author
22:19	brehaut	rickr: if you are reaching for eval as a beginner, chances are you are reaching for the wrong tool (same goes for macros probably, but less so)
22:19	rickr	brehaut: i see and yes, just playing around with macros trying to understand them better.
22:21	brehaut	hmm, i dont know if foo# is actually a gensym, the gensym function produces differently named symbols
22:21	trptcolin	blakesmith: looks like 1.2.1
22:23	sunng	hi, all. Which module is clojure.contrib.condition in ??
22:23	lazybot	sunng: Definitely not.
22:24	G0SUB	dnolen: wanted to discuss something related to ClojureScript with you...
22:24	dnolen	G0SUB: what's up?
22:25	G0SUB	dnolen: I have been using CLJS for a bit recently.
22:25	G0SUB	dnolen: I feel CLJS lacks a good selector engine.
22:25	G0SUB	dnolen: GClosure doesn't have one in the core. they have a "third-party" lib that's a port from Dojo.
22:25	blakesmith	trptcolin: Rookie mistake, I put hector in :dependencies instead of :dev-dependencies.
22:27	G0SUB	dnolen: I also feel that a lot of DOM classes don't implement crucial protocols. Element & NodeList comes to my mind. do you think such protocol implementations would be solicited for CLJS core?
22:28	dnolen	G0SUB: hmm, I thought that latest GClosure had something … could be wrong.
22:28	G0SUB	dnolen: the docs point to goog.dom.query which is "third-party" aka out-of-tree
22:30	dnolen	G0SUB: I'm not keen on DOM stuff in core, seems out of scope, but others might disagree. Would rather see a CLJS contrib lib for that.
22:30	G0SUB	dnolen: makes sense. a contrib should serve the purpose as well.
22:30	dnolen	G0SUB: but of course assumes there's a good lib management for CLJS which there is not.
22:31	G0SUB	dnolen: true, that's another problem.
22:31	G0SUB	dnolen: honestly, if I wish to use CLJS to build real webapps, I would need some really good DOM manipulation libs.
22:32	dnolen	G0SUB: personally, I have no problem w/ just putting things in jars and releasing them. works for gclosure
22:32	G0SUB	else, my JS guys won't buy CLJS.
22:32	G0SUB	hmm
22:32	G0SUB	dnolen: I don't know how to accomplish that with CLJS code. is that just a simple Clojure like jar that can be put in the classpath?
22:32	alexbaranosky	hey guys, what's the simplest way to build my fork of Clojure locally?
22:34	dnolen	G0SUB: yes I think so, cljs files and compiler macros, etc
22:34	G0SUB	ok
22:34	G0SUB	dnolen: right now, almost all of my CLJS code is interop, it's ugly.
22:38	trptcolin	alexbaranosky: ant jar?
22:38	alexbaranosky	trptcolin, ok - let me install ant
22:38	dnolen	G0SUB: a contrib that provides more idiomatic access to the DOM would be great, plus that would be a good testing ground for putting things in jars and using them from CLJS projects.
22:39	dnolen	G0SUB: I haven't tried that kind of thing yet so I don't have much insight at the moment.
22:39	G0SUB	dnolen: thanks. I will start a discussion on the mailing list.
22:41	devn	dnolen: do you know of any cljs code lying around that uses websockets off the top of your head?
22:41	devn	nvm: https://github.com/neotyk/ws-cljs/
22:42	dnolen	devn: also there's a halfbaked commented out version of browser repl that uses websockets
22:43	dnolen	devn: would be sweet to see that actually working, gclosure channel works everywhere but lots of latency.
22:45	devn	dnolen: :\ That's too bad
22:46	devn	dnolen: any handle on where the loose wire is? latency-wise...
22:46	dnolen	devn: polling iframes
22:46	devn	ah
22:46	brehaut	_iframes_‽
22:46	brehaut	thats mental
22:46	devn	dnolen: is that a solvable problem from cljs' perspective, or are we at gclosure's mercy?
22:46	dnolen	brehaut: except … it works everywhere.
22:47	devn	^good point
22:47	brehaut	dnolen: so do xhrs ?
22:47	dnolen	brehaut: wasn't always true, and may not even true for some strange browser clients.
22:47	brehaut	i didnt realise gclosure was old enough for that to have been a problem
22:48	dnolen	brehaut: I also think it may allow communications across different domains - haven't looked closely.
22:48	brehaut	esp given the funny clicky events that polling iframes generate in older IEs
22:48	brehaut	dnolen: ah, that would be it then
22:49	dnolen	brehaut: but even xhr had weird limitations - FF at long ago could only have 2 inflights requests, a bunch of other goofy things.
22:49	dnolen	a long time ago.
22:49	dnolen	I'm sure gclosure is a amalgamation of useful code, not all one concerted effort
22:49	brehaut	that limitaiton would have held for iframes too
22:49	dnolen	brehaut: why?
22:50	dnolen	iframes have nothing to with xhr
22:50	brehaut	because all browsers used to limit themselves to two inflight connections to any given scheme * domain * port
22:50	brehaut	nomatter the resource type
22:50	brehaut	or method of access
22:50	dnolen	brehaut: I don't recall seeing that limitation at the same time across the various browsers.
22:52	brehaut	ffx was slower in upping the limit i think was all
22:52	dnolen	brehaut: interesting. still had to live with it :)
22:52	brehaut	indeed; the normal solution was a bunch of subdomains
22:54	devn	dnolen: how slow is slow, out of curiosity?
22:54	dnolen	devn: it's noticeable, especially when you want to println back from browser-repl
22:55	dnolen	night and day from a repl connection to Node.js
22:55	devn	does it increase over time? like if you were hammering the browser with updates how would it react?
22:57	dnolen	devn: not really, it's just the polling intervals are not particularly high from what I can tell.
22:57	devn	dnolen: thanks for the info -- trying to rewrite something in clojure and would love to make it clojure and clojurescript if it makes sense
22:58	trptcolin	headius: saw your earlier questions about jline2 - this is the one i'm using (it's what scala uses): https://github.com/paulp/jline2 - mostly additive on top of the jline/jline2 project. There's some stuff that hasn't gotten upstream (I haven't asked why yet)
22:58	dnolen	devn: make a lot of sense :)
22:58	dnolen	makes
23:00	trptcolin	tried the latest changes from jline/jline2 out just now, looks like they just started back up in the last week. looks much better. one small problem, probably fixable though now that the project is active. it'd be nice to not have to have [org.scala-lang/jline "2.9.1"] in my dependency list, even with its "can't we all get along" good vibes ;)
23:33	gtrak``	does korma do file blobs? i'm thinking about making a little cms
23:41	gtrak``	maybe i'll just use wordpress
23:42	duck1123	but then you won't be able to say "I did this"
23:42	gtrak``	true :-)
23:42	gtrak``	opportunity cost
23:49	amalloy	alexbaranosky: a heredoc reader macro is pretty trivial to add, but i don't especially want one (and i doubt if /core does either)