#clojure – 2011-11-27

2011-11-27

00:08	alexbaranosky	what the heck is &form ?
00:08	alexbaranosky	:)
00:08	cgray`	in what context?
00:08	alexbaranosky	I'm not sure if its a Clojure thing or a Midje code-base thing
00:08	alexbaranosky	I see it in some code I'm reading
00:09	cgray`	is it an argument to a function?
00:09	alexbaranosky	(in Midje)
00:09	alexbaranosky	yes, as well as to a macro, and also in a backtick empalte like such : '~&form
00:10	alexbaranosky	empalte => template
00:10	alexbaranosky	ahhh is it anaphora or something/
00:11	cgray`	it's not something i've seen :)
00:11	alexbaranosky	a way to reference the form of macro that you're inside of?
00:16	cgray`	it could just be a weird name for a variable...
00:17	cgray`	i would think it would be here: http://clojure.org/reader if it was actually something
00:24	technomancy	&form and &env are implicit arguments to every macro
00:24	lazybot	java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: form in this context
00:28	amalloy	alexbaranosky: it's anaphorically added to every macro definition: (defmacro foo [x] (println &form) x) (foo (+ 1 2)) prints (foo (+ 1 2)) and expands to (+ 1 2)
00:29	amalloy	it's not mentioned in the reader because it's unrelated to the reader
00:29	alexbaranosky	technomancy, what does &env do?
00:32	alexbaranosky	amalloy, that's neat
00:32	amalloy	it's a map containing information about the lexical environment into which the macro will be expanded
00:33	amalloy	alexbaranosky: you have an example of &env in action, in utilize - the datatypes namespace checks out &env to figure out what typehint its argument has been given
00:33	alexbaranosky	amalloy, checking..........
00:33	quotemstr	Wait --- rest is being changed, and the lazy sequence model redesigned?
00:34	amalloy	quotemstr: that is very old. the change has happened
00:34	quotemstr	Oh, okay. Good.
00:41	alexbaranosky	are there any good links to read more about &env?
00:41	alexbaranosky	nevermind: http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/02/clojure-and.html
00:42	alexbaranosky	didn't think I could effectively google for things starting with &
01:31	lghtng	,&env
01:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: &env in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:31	lghtng	,google &env
01:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: google in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:31	lghtng	,g &env
01:31	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: g in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:32	lghtng	,search &env
01:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: search in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:32	lghtng	,uptime
01:32	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: uptime in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
01:32	amalloy	lghtng: if you're going to try to brute-force this, could you do it im PM?
01:32	lghtng	lol, ok
01:32	devn	heh
01:32	lghtng	sry
01:32	amalloy	$google &env
01:32	lazybot	[Jay Fields' Thoughts: Clojure: &env and &form] http://blog.jayfields.com/2011/02/clojure-and.html
01:32	devn	lghtng: np bro u r kewl
01:33	lghtng	what happened to the keywords in fsbot?
01:33	lghtng	tnx
01:33	devn	ur so welcome bro
01:34	amalloy	lghtng: you're not in #emacs, buddy. we don't have fsbot
01:35	devn	"you're not in #emacs anymore"
01:36	justicefries	the new vim chantitle
01:36	devn	justicefries: in madison?
01:36	justicefries	me?
01:36	clojurebot	slime-installer is deprecated
01:37	justicefries	like the city?
01:37	devn	justicefries: indeed
01:37	justicefries	no, I spoke there at madison ruby conf...fell in love with it, wouldn't mind going back. why?
01:37	justicefries	or living there.
01:37	devn	<-bendyworks
01:38	justicefries	oh nice.
01:38	justicefries	yeah, seems like the main place for a rubyist to work.
01:41	justicefries	I may end up moving there, we'll see. coolest place ever.
01:45	cgray`	ok, to answer my question from about 45 minutes ago, typehinting with ^"[Ljava.lang.Object;" is the way to go
01:45	amalloy	^objects
01:45	cgray`	damn
01:45	cgray`	i thought i tried that
01:46	amalloy	well, i guess it might not work anymore, but i think it's supposed to
01:46	cgray`	i might have tried ^Objects
01:46	amalloy	any you still want to know the general syntax for things that don't have a shortcut like objects
01:47	cgray`	yeah, you can get it with (type foo)...
01:47	cgray`	it sped my code up by about 100x
03:53	quotemstr	Why is /= an "invalid token"?
04:00	amalloy	quotemstr: / is the namespace separator
04:05	quotemstr	amalloy: But it's not separating anything.
04:05	amalloy	that's why it's invalid
04:06	quotemstr	Symbols _starting_ with / are unambiguous and should be treated normally.
04:06	amalloy	meh
04:06	quotemstr	( /= is what Lisp uses, so it'd be nice to be able to use the same symbol.)
04:06	amalloy	there's an exception for clojure.core//, but in general / isn't a legal part of a symbol
04:07	amalloy	using /= instead of not= just because you're used to a different lisp is kinda gross. you can't use 1+ either; just dive in and use clojure's names
04:07	amalloy	or +1 - i could never remember which order the dang things went in
04:08	quotemstr	1+.
04:08	quotemstr	+1 is an integer.
04:27	quotemstr	Is there a way of writing (new foo bar) so that bar is evaluated?
04:27	quotemstr	That is, is there a way to choose the constructor used at runtime?
04:28	nickmbailey	that is how it will work by default
04:29	amalloy	i assume quotemstr meant he wants foo evaluated
04:29	nickmbailey	(new foo (bar))?
04:29	nickmbailey	wait, foo or bar
04:30	amalloy	quotemstr: reflection. you can muddle through the javadocs to do it by hand, or let clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeConstructor do it
04:30	quotemstr	Err, yes, I meant foo.
04:30	quotemstr	Thanks.
04:32	nickmbailey	is it fairly standard to rebind in and out to new stream readers and use things like println and read-line for working with streams?
04:34	quotemstr	nickmbailey: I do it all the time in Lisp.
04:35	nickmbailey	just encountered it recently and the idea took me by surprise
04:36	quotemstr	Heck, I've seen people do that in C, with printf.
04:37	amalloy	really? surely it's easier to just use fprintf there
04:38	quotemstr	amalloy: Easier than reassigning stdout?
04:38	amalloy	yeah
04:40	quotemstr	amalloy: You might want to temporarily reassign stdout for the same reason you might want to temporarily bind out.
04:40	amalloy	i guess that's true
04:41	amalloy	the only serious C programming i ever did was on a device with no stdout, so i guess i'm out of touch there
04:48	gmaggior	Excuse me, can you tell me why (defn bbb [x y] ((get (vec x)) y)) and (bbb '(1 2 3) 1) give invalid argument exception to get?
04:49	amalloy	gmaggior: your parens are way off
04:49	amalloy	inside of bbb
04:49	gmaggior	oh
04:50	amalloy	(defn bbb [x y] (get (vec x) y)) ;; although this would be simpler: (def bbb nth)
04:51	alexbaranosky	amalloy, I should remember to use nth next time I am writing a bbb util function
04:51	alexbaranosky	it's so much more concise
04:52	gmaggior	amalloy: thank you very much amalloy. It works. Actually I'm writing a function to simulate nth instead of using it (it is a 4clojure problem)
04:53	alexbaranosky	aha! nice, do they wouldn't let you try the old (def bbb nth) trick anyway
04:53	tomoj	alexbaranosky: consider (nth (range) 3)
04:54	Raynes	(def bbc "Doctor Who")
04:54	alexbaranosky	tomoj, ?
04:55	amalloy	yeah, i guess we should have added a test to verify that your nth works for infinite sequences. too late to change now, though
05:26	quotemstr	Why is :keys necessary when an :or is present?
05:26	quotemstr	A bare :or provides all the information you need.
05:26	amalloy	they're orthogonal
05:27	quotemstr	I want to write a destructuring expression with default key values, and I don't want to repeat the key names.
05:27	amalloy	(let [{user-name :user-record-data-name :or {user-name "no user"}} the-data] (do stuff with user-name...))
05:27	quotemstr	{:keys [a b] :or [a 0 b 2]} seems silly when the :or part indicates that key parsing is desired.
05:28	amalloy	no; the keys in the or refer to your local names, which are not by any means always the same as the keys in the original map
05:28	quotemstr	Err, {a 0 b 2}.
05:29	quotemstr	Still, I want is fairly common, I imagine.
05:29	amalloy	i don't really see :or get used that often. once in a while, sure
05:30	quotemstr	Maybe that's because you have to repeat the local names.
05:30	amalloy	haha
05:32	quotemstr	Why not follow CL and allow :keys [(key default-form)...] ?
05:32	amalloy	so, write a let+ macro that finds {:keys-or {a 0 b 2}} and replaces it with {:keys [a b] :or {a 0 b 2}}
05:33	amalloy	quotemstr: or if you only use the value once, don't destructure it at all. (let [m (...)] (+ (m :a 0) (m :b 2)))
05:33	quotemstr	I'd have to provide a + version of every destructuring form.
05:51	Bahman	Hi all!
06:01	_ulises	morning folk
06:02	fbru02	hey guys !! I still have the same question that a couple days ago, before when evaluating sth with the same name it issued a warning , now it gives an IlligalStateException : x already refers to ... , is there away to enforce this evaluation?
06:04	_ulises	can one have different :pre and :post conditions for different arities of a function? or even, how do pre and post-conditions work when one defines functions like (defn foo ([] ...) ([p] ...) ...)?
06:05	_ulises	fbru02: have any code to show what you're getting?
06:05	_ulises	a simple example that is
06:06	fbru02	_ulises: no, is just more like the order i was using when developing... but let me think on how i can clarify
06:06	_ulises	fbru02: are you using slime?
06:06	fbru02	_ulises: yes
06:06	_ulises	I get that sometimes when I move things about between files and my swank server maintains state
06:07	_ulises	I tried with (ns-unmap ...) but perhaps I wasn't using it correctly
06:07	_ulises	I think you may want to experiment with that
06:07	_ulises	as in, it didn't work for me, but in theory that's what you'd want to clear a namespace
06:08	fbru02	_ulises: awesome didn't know about its existence , thanks
06:09	_ulises	no worries
06:09	_ulises	let me know if this works and how you got it to work though :)
08:53	gfredericks	_ulises: I know it's been a couple hours, but I just confirmed at the repl that you can enter separate conditions for each arity-definition.
08:53	gfredericks	Specifically I did (defn foo ([a] {:pre [(pos? a)]} (inc a)) ([a b] {:pre [(= 15 (+ a b))]} (- a b))) and it worked as you would expect
08:55	Raynes	Yeah. I imagine I'd have tried it rather than asking about it for two days with no answers. :P
08:57	gfredericks	Raynes: does clojurebot have a snarky phrase handy for that?
08:57	gfredericks	~try-it
08:57	Raynes	Don't think so.
08:57	clojurebot	I don't understand.
08:57	Raynes	clojurebot: try-it \|is\| Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:57	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
08:58	Raynes	~try-it
08:58	clojurebot	try-it is Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:58	Raynes	Well... close enough.
08:58	Raynes	clojurebot: try-it \|is\| <reply>Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:58	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
08:58	gfredericks	dang what was the syntax for that.
08:58	Raynes	~try-it
08:58	clojurebot	try-it is Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:58	gfredericks	~try-it
08:58	Raynes	Well, something like that.
08:58	clojurebot	Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:58	Raynes	There we go.
08:58	gfredericks	Raynes: it worked, he's just got both now
08:58	gfredericks	clojurebot: forget try-it
08:58	clojurebot	Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:58	gfredericks	~try-it
08:58	clojurebot	try-it is Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:59	Raynes	I concede.
08:59	gfredericks	clojurebot: forget try-it \|is\| Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:59	clojurebot	I forgot that try-it is Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:59	gfredericks	~try-it
08:59	clojurebot	Why not just try it? It's quicker that way.
08:59	gfredericks	okay I think he's better now
08:59	ejackson	i think clojurebot had too much turkey
09:00	gfredericks	~turkey
09:00	clojurebot	Excuse me?
09:12	biallym	Hey is there a way to have a function called on or around garbage collection of an object?
09:13	biallym	Like an Idisposable for C#
09:52	ambrosebs	has anyone explored adding compiler hooks to Clojurescript?
10:03	tauntaun	Glad to see that clojurebot is freely available. I'll assume that the absence of a user guide means it's trivially easy to use :-)
11:27	fliebel	Is there a 1.3 Clojure lib for dealing with complex numbers?
11:37	reiddraper	What's the rationale behind the namespace naming pattern foo.core? Is it not possible to put code in the foo namespace directly?
12:00	fliebel	reiddraper: You can, I think the idea is that when you have a large app, it makes sense to have a core.
12:00	technomancy_	reiddraper: it's not possible in certain contexts
12:06	reiddraper	ok, it's not a restriction for me or anything, just curious. thanks
12:43	fliebel	technomancy_: re namespaces: in which cases is it not possible?
12:49	gtrak``	Raynes, so are you considering university?
12:50	Raynes	gtrak``: Not particularly. At some point, possibly.
12:50	Raynes	fliebel: I don't remember the details, but I know of some classloader bizarreness that is the result of single-segment namespaces.
12:51	Raynes	Man, why isn't the guy who did this here: https://github.com/jedahu/story
12:51	Raynes	I need to tell him how awesome he is.
12:52	fliebel	Raynes: Ok, so we should have more names like del.ico.us, because I dislike core.
12:53	Raynes	I like core. Core is cool.
12:54	mdeboard	Raynes: Great blog post
12:54	Raynes	mdeboard: Thanks. :>
12:56	TimMc	co/re.clj
12:57	gtrak``	core/.clj
13:00	Raynes	fliebel: Just start using namespaces like fliebel.moar and fliebel.coar.
13:01	fliebel	Raynes: For some reason, IRC is the only place I'm called fliebel.
13:01	Raynes	fliebel: That's because it is impossible to pronounce your name.
13:03	mdeboard	Raynes: Dude god, I thought I was doing good getting my career started. Your first job is backend dev with Clojure? I quit.
13:03	fliebel	Raynes: I suppose you can say Dijkstra's algorithm, right?
13:03	Raynes	Heh. Did you praise me for my post before you finished reading it? :p
13:03	Raynes	fliebel: I'm not entirely confident that I know how to pronounce his name either.
13:03	Raynes	I think I do though.
13:04	mdeboard	Raynes: Well since you're just a child I thought you could use some positive encouragement. Just kidding -- I read through the 2010 part then my ADHD attacked. :P
13:04	Raynes	Heh
13:07	fliebel	Raynes: Maybe I can teach you how to say my name on (next conj), I'm already devising things to talk about and ways to make money :P
13:07	Raynes	:p
13:09	fliebel	&(next ())
13:09	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:09	Raynes	&(-> () next next next next next)
13:09	lazybot	⇒ nil
13:10	fliebel	Raynes: I still can't remember rest/next ##(-> () rest rest rest rest)
13:10	lazybot	⇒ ()
13:14	alexbaranosky	Raynes, nice article.
13:15	gtrak``	i need to get off my ass and learn haskell, this is an encouragement
13:16	jamiltron	Sorry to backtrack, but what article?
13:16	gtrak``	http://blog.raynes.me/blog/2011/11/27/the-clojure-community-and-me/
13:16	mdeboard	gtrak``: Ditto. Haskell is awesome. I use it to work on stuff in my discrete math course
13:17	jamiltron	Same here. I love Haskell but feel so humbled by it I never feel like I can run with it for long enough.
13:17	gtrak``	mdeboard, yea, I need to see what all the fuss is about with types, i talked to djspiewak once about it and he convinced me it's interesting
13:18	Derander	glorious, glorious types
13:18	Raynes	alexbaranosky: Thanks. :)
13:18	mdeboard	The deeper I get into discrete math the more I understand haskell
13:18	mdeboard	And I understand essentially nothing.
13:18	alexbaranosky	Derander: timewasting, pain-in-the ass, types ;-)
13:18	gtrak``	discrete-math like fields and groups?
13:19	gtrak``	finite field?
13:19	Derander	alexbaranosky: :-P
13:19	mdeboard	I understand Haskell the way someone who once flew over a library with a book about Italian food understands the Mona Lisa.
13:20	alexbaranosky	Haskell's a lot like Clojure but with all these annoying types all over the place - and without all the delicious power that homoiconicity provides
13:20	Derander	mooonaaaaadddssss
13:20	gtrak``	i do like my power delicious
13:20	alexbaranosky	:P
13:20	Raynes	Haskell is also painfully non-dynamic. lazybot would have been so much of a bitch to write if I had done it in Haskell.
13:21	gtrak``	i'm starting up 'reasoned schemer' because of what was said about core.logic and ad-hoc typing
13:23	Derander	someone wrote a pattern matching library for clojure.. does anyone know the name?
13:23	gtrak``	core.match
13:23	Derander	gtrak``: danke :-)
13:27	gtrak``	anyone have a good guide to starting a meetup? I want a Baltimore FP meetup, it seems like there's a small group of people that would do it.
13:30	ckirkendall	gtrack: In cincy carin miers and I started up one. We spread the word through twitter and through the leaders of other meetups. Our first meeting had 30 people much of that was carin's sales job.
13:31	gtrak``	ah, ckirkendall I remember talking to you about this :-)
13:31	ckirkendall	We got a simple websites through wordpress. We created a google group.
13:31	ckirkendall	all of this was done before the first meetup
13:32	gtrak``	ckirkendall, it seems like there's some interest and programming talent around, but not much going on in the way of meetups here. We have a javascript meetup, though they meet like less than once a month
13:33	gtrak``	but i could totally run a site
13:33	gtrak``	and I could do an intro to clojure talk probably
13:35	ckirkendall	gtrak: we also made the decision to do a functional programming group and not just a clojure group.
13:36	gtrak``	yea, at this point i want to be inclusive
13:36	gtrak``	and i'm interested in FP in general
13:37	ckirkendall	We were all amazed at how many people were interested in FP
13:37	ckirkendall	I also have done presentation at other meetups pitching cincyfp
13:38	gtrak``	awesome
13:38	ckirkendall	If you have some technical friends that have a good following on twitter in balt. That was our best way to get the word out.
13:39	gtrak``	yea, i don't have enough contacts to piggyback off of stuff like that, it might take a while
13:39	gtrak``	but that's ok
13:40	mdeboard	I think I'm going to disable the 80+ minor mode for clojure
13:41	mdeboard	The highlighting drives me bananas
13:42	Raynes	http://blog.raynes.me/blog/2011/11/27/the-clojure-community-and-me/#comment-373681480
13:42	Raynes	"Continue being awesome."
13:43	ckirkendall	I didn't even know what twitter really was before meeting carin. It was here contacts that got the word out.
13:43	gtrak``	maybe she knows people in balty :-)
13:48	Saturnation	Raynes, nice post
13:49	Raynes	Saturnation: Thanks. :)
13:50	Saturnation	Brilliant talk at the Conj to, btw. :)
13:52	Raynes	Saturnation: Double thanks. :)
13:55	Saturnation	And thanks for your work on 4Clojure
13:57	Raynes	I haven't actually done a whole lot on 4Clojure.
13:58	Raynes	Definitely not enough to earn any ecreds.
14:00	Raynes	Oh shit -- I got hn'd: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3282837
14:00	tolstoy	Raynes: Yep. I'm reading your blog post right now as a result. ;)
14:05	mdeboard	Raynes: So I'm trying to get lazybot up and running, but when I run `lein uberjar` it tells me that "Release versions may not depend upon snapshots", or set an env var. Should I just set the env var and move on or ..?
14:06	Raynes	Yes.
14:06	Raynes	Or just do 'lein run'.
14:06	Raynes	That should work.
14:06	Raynes	I think.
14:06	ibdknox	it will
14:07	Raynes	I should update the docs about that.
14:07	ibdknox	we have to be careful though... at the rate we're going there will be a lazybot army
14:07	Raynes	Heh
14:07	mdeboard	Link them all together
14:07	shtutgart	hm, i'm getting "error in process filter: Wrong number of arguments: nil, 0" after sending (keys (:members (r/reflect "foo"))) to REPL. I've tried to relaunch swank, but the problem persist. (vals ...) or just (:members ...) work fine
14:07	mdeboard	I mean, lisps ARE all about AI after all right
14:07	Raynes	There was a fellow who PMed me a few days ago because he wanted to run his own instance of the bot.
14:08	shtutgart	ideas? is it a bug?
14:08	ibdknox	shtutgart: what's returned from members?
14:10	shtutgart	ibdknox: it's a set of clojure.reflect.Method
14:11	ibdknox	shtutgart: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/issues/31
14:11	shtutgart	not only Method, Field, Constructor etc
14:11	ibdknox	not sure if that's related
14:12	ibdknox	but it appears to be an issue at the swank-clojure/slime level
14:12	ibdknox	which means I'm useless
14:12	ibdknox	:)
14:13	ibdknox	Raynes: you're famous! #2 on HN
14:14	shtutgart	ibdknox: not really, other expressions like (+ "foo" "bar") and even (vals (:members (r/reflect "foo"))) work fine (I mean, throw exceptions), just this one causes the problem
14:14	Raynes	I know. I didn't even realize it was hn'd until like 10 minutes ago. Saw it was on the front page and pissed myself.
14:14	ibdknox	Raynes: so now that you're doing all this writing... when will I be getting some chapters? :p
14:15	mdeboard	Only bad part about getting frontpaged on HN is it usually draws out the worst HN commenters, at least IME
14:15	ibdknox	shtutgart: yeah, but the error itself is a swank one. Try it in lein repl and see what happens? Maybe that will give some clues
14:15	Raynes	ibdknox: Once I finish reviewing Keith's reviews and he reviews my reviews of his reviews and I review... yeah. After that, he should send the first chapter down your pipe.
14:15	shtutgart	ibdknox: yeah, already trying...
14:15	Raynes	There is only one chapter at this point that is close to ready for technical review.
14:16	ibdknox	mdeboard: it's true. There are some scary people on HN.
14:16	Raynes	Another one is currently under developmental review, and I should be submitting another chapter around the 5th.
14:16	ibdknox	Raynes: awesome :D
14:17	mdeboard	ibdknox: I wrote to Dr. Norvig to see if he would chime in on people using his "Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years" as a bludgeon to beat up on new programmers. He did so, graciously.
14:17	ibdknox	mdeboard: :D
14:20	mdeboard	Raynes: Am I missing a config step with mongo here? When I `lein run` or run the jarfile I get this error: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/513666/ I haven't touched mongo except to get its daemon running. I didn't see anything in .lazybot/config.clj about mongo config.
14:22	Raynes	mdeboard: I have no idea what that means.
14:22	Raynes	Is there a stacktrace?
14:22	mdeboard	ya
14:22	mdeboard	sec
14:23	mdeboard	http://paste.pocoo.org/show/513668/
14:23	Raynes	Huh.
14:23	Raynes	mdeboard: Maybe the port is wrong?
14:23	Raynes	What port is mongo running on?
14:24	mdeboard	27017 & 28017
14:24	Raynes	Well..
14:24	mdeboard	Is :servers-port supposed to be the mongo port?
14:25	Raynes	No.
14:25	mdeboard	Ok
14:25	mdeboard	Didn't think so, but maybe I was going crazy
14:25	Raynes	Well, one problem here is that printStackTrace isn't real.
14:25	Raynes	Let's fix that first. Give me a sec.
14:29	Raynes	mdeboard: Could you hop over to #flatland?
14:30	mdeboard	sure
14:34	sritchie	Raynes, are you around?
14:34	sritchie	quick question on lein-nenew
14:34	sritchie	s/nenew/newnew
14:34	Raynes	sritchie: I am.
14:34	Raynes	Sure. Shoot.
14:35	sritchie	how do you recommend creating a new templates? forking lein-newnew and adding them directly, or is there some way to pull a template in separately and have "lein templates" pick it up?
14:35	Raynes	Ah, that's the beauty of it! Templates need only be maven artifacts.
14:35	Raynes	Just create your template and then publish it on clojars.
14:36	Raynes	You can then 'lein plugin install' your template just like any other leiningen plugin and it'll be picked up by lein-newnew.
14:36	ibdknox	just think of all the awesome template packs
14:37	sritchie	awesome, that's great
14:38	sritchie	so for a template called "axelrod", I'd create a project with "leiningen/new/axelrod.clj" and "leiningen/new/axelrod/<templatefiles>"
14:38	Raynes	Yes.
14:38	sritchie	boom
14:38	ibdknox	sritchie: there's a template for creating templates :D
14:38	sritchie	how about a recursive template template
14:38	Raynes	sritchie: Since lein-newnew is in Leiningen now (master), the templates that currently exist are probably the only ones that'll ever be included with it.
14:38	sritchie	nice
14:38	Raynes	`lein new template mytemplate`
14:38	Raynes	:D
14:39	sritchie	I'm making a template for *-koans projects
14:39	sritchie	I pulled the macros, etc out of clojure-koans, so now anyone can make koan projects for their own libraries
14:39	Raynes	Excellent usage.
14:40	ibdknox	sritchie: I still need to look into that cljs-watch change you made :)
14:40	ibdknox	sritchie: I think though, that it won't work without changes to the CLJS compiler :(
14:40	sritchie	yeah, I realized after I sent it in that it'll only work for local files
14:40	sritchie	files in your project
14:40	sritchie	it's a very anti-social pull request
14:40	ibdknox	haha
14:41	devn	what are people's feelings about including swank-clojure as a dev-dependency?
14:41	ibdknox	don't do it
14:41	devn	I often find it annoying that I need to add it to the project.clj for every project I pull down
14:41	ibdknox	user level plugins ftw
14:41	Raynes	devn: You totally don't.
14:41	ibdknox	lein plugin install swank-clojure some-version
14:41	sritchie	devn: you can install it locally
14:41	Raynes	devn: lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.3
14:42	devn	lol, when did I miss this memo
14:42	sritchie	I just figured this out too
14:42	ibdknox	totally 6 months behind :p
14:42	ibdknox	a while back during the 1.3.0 transition I sent out a post telling everyone to remove it
14:42	ibdknox	lol
14:43	ibdknox	with some other general clean up things
14:43	Raynes	marginalia has a lein-vimclojure plugin in the dev deps.
14:43	Raynes	Makes me want to kill myself.
14:43	ibdknox	now now. Vim is a special case :D
14:43	ibdknox	we have to wave our flag proudly
14:43	ibdknox	as we are the few here
14:44	Raynes	Heh.
14:44	Raynes	You should be the transitioning.
14:44	ibdknox	sritchie: you were building something with Noir, right? How did that go?
14:45	ibdknox	Raynes: pfft, where's the fun in that? Then I'd have to actually help with swank issues and such... for now I can just claim ignorance.
14:45	sritchie	ibdknox: it's going really well -- I've had to let it sit for a bit while I rework this elephantdb project
14:45	gfredericks	$inc ibdknox
14:45	lazybot	⇒ 5
14:45	Raynes	There isn't any helping to be done.
14:45	Raynes	M-x clojure-jack-in and stfu.
14:45	ibdknox	lol
14:46	gfredericks	every other question in #clojure has something to do with skank-swim-mode or whatever
14:46	ibdknox	lol
14:46	Raynes	I bet ejackson thinks that was directed at him now.
14:46	ibdknox	sritchie: haha
14:46	ibdknox	sritchie: there's always something :)
14:46	sritchie	ibdknox: I'm starting to play with clojurescript, though
14:46	technomancy	gfredericks: and they're all answered by the documentation!
14:46	Raynes	He's probably sitting there muttering "what did I do" in his little English accent.
14:46	sritchie	ibdknox: I set up a little google maps demo with noir: https://github.com/sritchie/contour
14:47	ejackson	Raynes: I'm struggling with the XML aspersions, to take any more on board
14:47	Raynes	technomancy: You should really get some t-shirts made of the docs.
14:47	devn	ibdknox: did you see some of the conversation that happened around how noir puts the V and C in the same file?
14:47	gfredericks	technomancy: I know, I just get bitter that my editor isn't all tricked out so I have to find something to complain about
14:47	ibdknox	devn: you should read my epic response :)
14:47	devn	ibdknox: is it on the issue that was submitted?
14:47	ibdknox	sritchie: oh awesome
14:47	sritchie	along with my clojurescript "getting started" tips, as if there aren't enough floating around
14:47	ibdknox	devn: http://groups.google.com/group/clj-noir/browse_thread/thread/1718a9b1312156d3
14:48	devn	be back in 7 hours after I finish reading this
14:48	ibdknox	sritchie: that's really cool :)
14:49	ibdknox	sritchie: how was working with CLJS?
14:49	devn	have you guys seen trail?
14:50	devn	https://github.com/bobby/trail
14:50	ibdknox	yeah
14:51	ibdknox	I was going to sit down and start figuring that stuff out for pinot soon. I actually don't think the classic approach is necessarily the best one in this case
14:51	ibdknox	but I haven't really gone into it yet, so I could be totally wrong :D
14:52	gfredericks	ibdknox: I am glad you wrote this.
14:53	ibdknox	gfredericks: why's that?
14:53	sritchie	ibdknox: I found that the browser repl helped a lot; it was a bit difficult to figure out how to examine javascript objects, etc, but that's more my problem
14:53	gfredericks	ibdknox: because I like the ideas and I hadn't thought of it that way before.
14:54	sritchie	I'm heading to pinot next
14:54	ibdknox	gfredericks: yeah, I mean the main thing they wanted to accomplish with MVC was separation of business and presentation
14:55	ibdknox	gfredericks: controllers seems a bit of an after thought, but were important in contexts where any number of actions might cause changes (e.g. in a standard client interface)
14:55	ibdknox	sritchie: let me know how that goes. I think most of what you need is there, but I won't claim it's "good" yet :) The hiccup over dom objects is really fun though
14:56	ibdknox	lots of cool things you can do with that
14:56	Raynes	sritchie: Let me know when your template is out.
14:57	Raynes	ibdknox: Also. Trynoir. Do it.
14:57	ibdknox	I know
14:57	ibdknox	ugh, just have too much going on :(
14:57	Raynes	You just think you do.
14:57	ibdknox	haha
14:58	mdeboard	ibdknox: Don't get yourself burnt out
14:58	sritchie	ibdknox: this maps project is going to evolve into the front end for a clojure-based deforestation-monitoring system I've been working on
14:58	Raynes	If he gets burnt out he'll just make me maintain his stuff until he is okay.
14:59	Raynes	"Hi, I'm Anthony Grimger here to talk about Noir and Korma."
14:59	ibdknox	sritchie: interesting. Where are you going to get the data?
14:59	cgag	Did you make noir? I'm just getting into clojure and was thinking of trying it. I was going to ask what the current options were as far as web dev with clojure.
14:59	Dyscrete	Raynes, your blog post on HN sent me here :D
14:59	Raynes	Dyscrete: Hi! :)
14:59	ibdknox	cgag: yep, I wrote it :) It'll be by far the easiest starting point if you're new
14:59	Raynes	cgag: ibdknox wrote noir.
14:59	sritchie	ibdknox: I've got a hadoop workflow that processes NASA's MODIS dataset back to 2000; the bulk of the work is generating timeseries, extracting some trends and running a classification algorithm over all of the pixels
15:00	ckirkendall	Raynes: I second that.
15:00	mdeboard	Dyscrete: Welcome
15:00	cgag	If yours was the post about the clojure community that's what sent me here as well :)
15:00	Dyscrete	thanks all
15:00	sritchie	so the final dataset is, for every pixel, a percent chance of deforestation in the next time period
15:00	Raynes	cgag: It was.
15:00	sritchie	Raynes: you KNOW it
15:00	sritchie	almost done here, just need to test this thing out
15:01	ibdknox	sritchie: that's cool stuff, are you going to open source it? I'd love to see what that ends up looking like
15:01	sritchie	ibdknox: yup, hopefully in the next month or two
15:02	ibdknox	sritchie: cool. You're not in the bay area are you?
15:02	sritchie	yeah, actually, I'm at twitter
15:02	ibdknox	hah
15:02	sritchie	I need throw an interface between my thrift schema and the hadoop logic, and then it should be good to go
15:02	ibdknox	sritchie: we should get together sometime
15:02	sritchie	sounds good, man
15:03	sritchie	I'm back in town tomorrow, I'll send you a note
15:03	ibdknox	awesome.
15:03	ibdknox	There are a lot of us around here, it's funny that none of us seem to find eachother though
15:04	ibdknox	you guys don't come to the user group :p
15:04	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: ping
15:04	devn	get thee to a user group!
15:04	sritchie	haha, I busted in late at the last one
15:04	sritchie	rudely interrupting your pinot demonstration
15:04	ibdknox	haha
15:04	pmooser	ok I am going to go read this article
15:05	pmooser	and maybe I'll be so impressed that I'll join IRC a second time
15:05	ibdknox	devn: did you read that response?
15:05	sritchie	but it's a fair point, I'll add myself to the meetup
15:05	ibdknox	:)
15:05	ibdknox	Now I need to convince mark to go
15:06	ibdknox	and other heroku people
15:06	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: pong?
15:06	devn	ibdknox: I did. I liked it. :)
15:07	zmanji	Is there a document that enumerates the difference between Clojure and Scheme/Racket? I have used Scheme before and I am interested in learning and using Clojure
15:07	devn	zmanji: yes, as a matter of fact there is :)
15:07	dnolen	zmanji: too many to list :)
15:07	ibdknox	my deep dark secret: Noir is the 4th web framework I've built
15:07	devn	zmanji: http://hyperpolyglot.org/lisp
15:07	zmanji	thanks devn
15:07	devn	np
15:07	mdeboard	ibdknox: When you say web framework, what do you mean, specifically? Just a collection of abstractions for common HTTP-handling tasks?
15:08	devn	dnolen: someone did the work :)
15:08	ibdknox	mdeboard: depends, is that what you would label rails?
15:08	dnolen	devn: well that's a detail oriented list, but it doesn't list the bigger philosophical differences
15:09	mdeboard	ibdknox: I've never used rails, but I'd describe a subset of Django's codebase that way
15:09	devn	dnolen: it
15:09	devn	dnolen: it's a very, very long list. They get into some of that later on in the document.
15:09	ibdknox	mdeboard: I've always struggled with the difference between "library" and "framework", the distinction I ultimately settled on was that a framework is something you write code in while a library is something you write code around
15:09	pmooser	Nice article, Raynes.
15:09	Raynes	<3
15:10	ibdknox	mdeboard: I wrote two at the level of django
15:10	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: say, since you appear to be involved in both the Python andClojure communities, would you have a couple Clojure-for-the-Python-programmer tutorials to recommend? I've gone through Mark Volmann's, which is good but apparently written for an older version of Clojure
15:10	dnolen	devn: for "define class" it says use Java :P
15:10	ibdknox	mdeboard: one more like noir
15:10	pmooser	I was at the conj this year and your talk was cool and entertaining, and it didn't seem like you were nervous at all ;)
15:10	dnolen	for the Clojure table entry
15:10	devn	dnolen: haha, no one said it was perfect! :)
15:10	jgrimes	I came here because of that article Raynes, it was quite good
15:10	Raynes	Happy you enjoyed it. :)
15:10	devn	dnolen: I was using it to translate what I've learned about Clojure back to scheme
15:11	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: Unfortunately not, I basically just learn by doing/tinkering :-\ I think a "CLojure for Python programmers" tutorial would do a grave injustice to Clojure. "Python for Clojure programmers" would be more appropriate, but I've not seen that either.
15:11	Wild_Cat	(more specifically, the actors and destructuring parts were out of date, and I/O was mostly glossed over)
15:12	ibdknox	mdeboard: the first one I wrote was a PHP MVC framework, well before django ever existed :)
15:12	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: I always recommend picking up either Joy of Clojure or Practical Clojure
15:12	devn	the new pragprog clojure book is quite good
15:12	pmooser	The updated edition of the old one ?
15:12	devn	nod
15:12	ibdknox	mdeboard: the one after that was a crazy declarative metaprogramming thing that let you write out your site in xml. It was very cool, but meh.
15:12	ibdknox	mdeboard: the last was called trigger, it was a very lightweight event-based framework for building sites
15:13	devn	ibdknox: bad memories! shows you a cross
15:13	mdeboard	"xml... very cool..." aka "a face only a mother could love"
15:13	ibdknox	lol
15:13	devn	hey, don't beat up on XML
15:13	ibdknox	it was all we had!
15:13	devn	when we ran out of zeros, we just used 1s
15:13	mdeboard	I have a new appreciation for XML after taking that Stanford online DB class
15:14	devn	and then we had to walk 4 miles up hill both ways to get more zeros.
15:14	devn	and we liked it.
15:14	ibdknox	exactly
15:14	Raynes	jgrimes: Hey. I just realized you and I have the same last name.
15:14	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: Joy of Clojure? Nice. I'll take a look at it, probably once I've completed my move and can justify buying books :p
15:14	jgrimes	Raynes: oh, nice :)
15:14	Raynes	It took me way too long to notice that.
15:14	jgrimes	haha
15:15	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: If you have a Kindle it's one of hte few tech books I think reads quite well in ebook format
15:16	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: well, since I'm planning to buy a Kindle shortly before the aforementioned move, I'll add that one to my initial buy-list
15:16	Bahman	Is there any easy way to copy a byte array into another one?
15:18	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: does it include a guide to the Clojure ecosystem too (Leiningen, Clojars, useful libs, etc.?)
15:18	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: No not at all. Definitely use irc for that
15:18	raek	Bahman: http://docs.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/util/Arrays.html#copyOf(T[], int)
15:19	ibdknox	supposedly the 2nd edition of Programming Clojure has Noir in it
15:19	mdeboard	ibdknox: nice
15:19	Wild_Cat	mdeboard: ah, bit of a shame, that.
15:19	mdeboard	I do like Noir a lot
15:19	Raynes	My book will have whole chapters on Leiningen and Noir.
15:19	Wild_Cat	what's Noir?
15:19	ibdknox	meh, it's ok ;)
15:19	mdeboard	I'm kind of burnt out on hand-wavey we frameworks
15:19	Bahman	Thanks raek!
15:19	devn	I will love noir when I can get haml templates :X
15:19	mdeboard	s/we/web
15:19	ibdknox	there's not a java haml implementation?
15:20	ibdknox	devn: https://github.com/mmikulicic/haml-macro
15:20	devn	ibdknox: yes, it needs some work though
15:20	ibdknox	Wild_Cat: it's a web framework I wrote: www.webnoir.org
15:21	devn	I'm not so hot with parsers, so that's been a bit of a stumbling block for me with haml-macro
15:21	ibdknox	devn: I'd just find a java lib, wrap it real quick, and be done
15:21	Wild_Cat	ibdknox: hmm. A web framework for the JVM that doesn't suck harder than a black hole? That could be nifty.
15:22	ibdknox	Wild_Cat: 100% less suck ;)
15:22	Wild_Cat	what, you mean it blows? :p
15:22	mdeboard	lol
15:22	ibdknox	damn
15:22	ibdknox	beat at my own game
15:22	gfredericks	I'm writing some clojure code to use from java/jruby, and am curious how poor everyone thinks this idea is: a macro called at the end of a file that creates a class with a static method for every public function in the namespace.
15:22	Wild_Cat	:D
15:22	ibdknox	devn: this one seems active: https://github.com/raymyers/JHaml
15:22	ericmoritz\0	100% less suck means it neither sucks nor blows
15:23	ibdknox	true.
15:23	ibdknox	it's neutral
15:23	Wild_Cat	ibdknox: looks cool. No boilerplate. I like that.
15:23	devn	ibdknox: it seems to be missing quite a bit
15:24	devn	no interpolation is a bummer
15:24	ibdknox	devn: I didn't look much into it :)
15:24	ibdknox	never really wanted haml myself
15:24	Wild_Cat	while we're on the topic of noob stuff, is there a good lib, preferably in the stdlib, that I could use to scrape HTML?
15:25	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: Get used to most things not being in the std lib
15:25	Wild_Cat	ack :(
15:25	devn	this isn't common lisp! :)
15:25	ibdknox	there appears to be a scala haml impl
15:25	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: https://github.com/heyZeus/clj-web-crawler
15:25	devn	ibdknox: yeah, i'll have to do some more digging.
15:25	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: I was looking at that last night for similar reasons
15:25	Wild_Cat	devn: well, I'm a Python guy, really. That's where I got the "hey, it's in the stdlib"-itis from ;)
15:27	mdeboard	Wild_Cat: Ya ditto on that
15:28	devn	heh, I've been a Ruby guy, so "The standard library is a ghetto!" has always made me a little bit iffy about locking into stdlib
15:28	Wild_Cat	to be fair, the Python stdlib includes a lot of really dodgy stuff, and no HTML scraping lib.
15:29	devn	Wild_Cat: same with Ruby. so much of it has been abandoned or was written to work with pre-1.0 ruby
15:29	Wild_Cat	(if I'd had a dollar for every time someone came to #python trying to parse HTML with regxes...)
15:29	devn	it's a lot of garbage and a couple of useful bits
15:31	devn	Wild_Cat: there are a bunch of options for HTML parsing. I know of html-parse which uses tagsoup, there's also a lib called apricot-soup, and a couple hundred more written in Java I'm sure that you could use from clojure
15:31	devn	I'm sure I'm leaving dozens of options out
15:32	Wild_Cat	yeah, figures. I was mostly looking for the standard clojuric way of doing that ;)
15:33	Wild_Cat	(i.e. the local equivalent to "use lxml or BeautifulSoup"
15:33	Wild_Cat	)
15:35	devn	Wild_Cat: well, you already seem to be matching your parens. seems like you're well on your way to mastery. :)
15:35	Wild_Cat	haha
15:37	Wild_Cat	I gotta say, I still find all those parens somewhat ugly. In fact, Clojure scored tons of points in my book by using vectors for function signatures and by including set/dict/vector literals. Suddenly the code looks tons more readable.
15:39	devn	yeah, even without syntax highlighting I have very little trouble parsing clojure code due to binding forms being delimited by []s
15:39	devn	parens in lisp and scheme are overloaded. they mean everything.
15:41	Wild_Cat	yeah, that's how I felt.
15:42	Wild_Cat	besides, I consider the dict/map an important enough data structure that it deserves syntax-level support in any language.
15:43	cgag	i feel like i've read people actually complaining about the fact that it's not all parens, which I don't get at all. The literal syntaxes are excellent imo.
15:43	Wild_Cat	practicality beats purity ;)
15:44	samaaron	are there any linux-based clojurians willing to test out the new Overtone asset manager in here?
15:50	Saturnation	asset manager?
15:50	samaaron	Saturnation: yup
15:51	samaaron	Saturnation: do you rock the linux?
15:51	mdeboard	lol
15:51	mdeboard	brogrammers
15:51	samaaron	mdeboard: brogramming motherfucker!
15:52	Saturnation	I use the linux :)
15:52	Saturnation	it doesn't rock when I use it, fairly stable :)
15:52	pmooser	Hey Sam, what was the name of that input device you were using during your talk at the conj ?
15:52	samaaron	Saturnation: nice - and have you ever installed Overtone?
15:52	Saturnation	yes, but was painful :(
15:52	samaaron	pmooser: It's called a monome: http://monome.org
15:52	Wild_Cat	oh, is there a video of the Overtone conj vid? I heard it was awesome?
15:53	pmooser	Thank you
15:53	Wild_Cat	s/vid/talk/ >.<
15:53	samaaron	Saturnation: painful? How? And why didn't you share your pain on the mailing list?
15:53	Saturnation	Wild_Cat, not yet and it was :)
15:53	Wild_Cat	ffffffuuuuuuuuuu--
15:54	sritchie	Raynes: all done! I've got to wait for abedra and trptcolin to make me a few github projects, then I'll announce it and ping you
15:54	Saturnation	the one thing is that it doesn't seem to start the super collider server when running local or whatever it is...
15:54	sritchie	love the plugin :)
15:54	Raynes	:D
15:54	sritchie	Raynes: pardon me for asking before checking the lein-newnew source myself, BUT is it possible to keep file permissions on template copying?
15:54	Nick_1	1
15:54	Saturnation	samaaron, for reference, I was the guy at the Overtone unconj with the computer...
15:55	Saturnation	s/with/without
15:55	samaaron	Saturnation: oh cool - hello :-)
15:55	Saturnation	hello :)
15:55	Raynes	sritchie: Nope. Not at the moment.
15:55	sritchie	no worries, thanks again
15:55	samaaron	Saturnation: did you ever get the internal server working? (use 'overtone.live)
15:56	Saturnation	I did
15:56	samaaron	perfect
15:56	Raynes	sritchie: I would accept a patch for that though. And migrate it to Leiningen.
15:56	Saturnation	is it meant to be using super collider internally?
15:56	sritchie	I'll see if I can take a peek in the next few days
15:57	samaaron	Saturnation: yep, if (use 'overtone.live) works for you, then it will have booted an internal server
15:57	samaaron	Saturnation: could you do a fresh pull of the master branch on http://github.com/overtone/overtone
15:57	Saturnation	echo wasn't working when I tried some of the examples with internal server (didn't try them with the external server...)
15:57	samaaron	Saturnation: did you manage to make any kind of sound with the internal server?
15:58	Saturnation	OK, give a sec, was just firing up a clojar version
15:58	Saturnation	lots of good noises :)
15:58	Saturnation	loved the examples
15:58	devn	wub wub wub
15:58	Saturnation	keen to give the jazz chords a go as well
15:58	samaaron	Saturnation: ok, so it'll be a bug in the examples, not a problem with the internal server
15:58	Saturnation	cool
15:58	samaaron	Saturnation: if you come across any such bugs, please either file an issue or fire off a message to the mailing lists
15:59	Saturnation	'k
15:59	devn	samaaron: how cool is this random jazz scales thread? Apparently the key is to just incredibly open ended questions about an interesting topic.
15:59	devn	just post*
15:59	samaaron	devn: it's crazy cool
15:59	samaaron	devn: I'm just suffering from a severe loss in the family, so i haven't been able to devote too much brain time to it yet
15:59	devn	samaaron: speaking of overtone, I still need to write up those remote server notes
16:00	devn	samaaron: sorry to hear that. :\
16:00	samaaron	devn: that would be cool
16:00	samaaron	devn: me too - particularly as we don't know if it's suicide or murder
16:00	devn	samaaron: i don't even know how to properly respond to that. that's terrible.
16:01	samaaron	and both options are too hideous to contemplate
16:01	Saturnation	I can just lein swank from overtone, yes?
16:01	samaaron	devn: i don't think there is a proper response - that's why i'm still pretty numb
16:01	samaaron	so i'm spending time with the family and hacking on stuff i can wrap my brains around, which currently is the asset manager stuff
16:02	samaaron	Saturnation: you should just need to `lein deps` and then `lein swank` from within the freshly pulled overtone dir
16:02	Saturnation	"Warning - old config directory detected. Moved to ~/.overtone-old and replaced with new, empty config."
16:02	samaaron	Saturnation: that's a good sign :)
16:02	Saturnation	lein swank appears to have done a lein deps
16:03	Bahman	Is it possible to return a string from -main to the invoking program?
16:03	Saturnation	swank seems to have died :(
16:03	Wild_Cat	Bahman: write it to stdout
16:03	samaaron	Saturnation: oh. How?
16:03	Bahman	Wild_Cat: Is it considered "return"ing?
16:03	Saturnation	JVM segfault
16:04	samaaron	Saturnation: but you got the internal server working before?
16:04	Saturnation	:(
16:04	Saturnation	yes
16:04	Saturnation	I can act insane and try again? :)
16:04	samaaron	hmm, that's odd - i haven't touched the server code
16:04	samaaron	sure, do a `lein deps` for sanity purposes
16:04	Wild_Cat	Bahman: well, the thing is, a program's return code is always an integer. For any kind of more complicated communication between processes (any processes) you'll have to use something beefier than a simple return statement in your main.
16:05	Bahman	Saturnation: If you're on Windoze, restart the computer several times to solve the problem :-P
16:05	Wild_Cat	Bahman: those ways include stdin/stdout (the parent process can read from the child's stdout and write to its stdin), files, UNIX pipes, general-purpose IPC libs like DBus...
16:05	samaaron	Bahman: I believe he's on Linux - but if there are any windows users, i'd love them to lend a hand testign out the latest overtone
16:05	Bahman	Wild_Cat: You're right. Now I recall that from C times.
16:05	Wild_Cat	yeah, it's a language-independent problem ;)
16:05	Saturnation	OK, doing lein deps
16:06	Saturnation	for what its worth "JackServer::Open() failed with -1"
16:06	Wild_Cat	Bahman: if you can get away with simple stdout reading, do it. ;)
16:06	samaaron	Saturnation: damned jack
16:06	Saturnation	Um, when I got it working, wasn't with github, but lein and clojars dependencies
16:07	daniel___	can anyone explain this error? https://gist.github.com/1398139
16:07	samaaron	Saturnation: sure, but I don't remember changing any jack-related code since 0.5.0
16:07	Bahman	Wild_Cat: That's a good suggestion. I just worry that if there are runtime exceptions the caller may get garbage instead of a useful result :-)
16:07	daniel___	im using openjdk6
16:07	Bahman	Or exceptions are written to stderr?
16:07	Wild_Cat	Bahman: that's where the return code comes in handy.
16:07	Saturnation	(require 'overtone.live) sufficient/correct way to do this?
16:07	samaaron	Saturnation: do you have SuperCollider installed?
16:08	Saturnation	Pretty sure I do, what's the command line for it?
16:08	samaaron	scsynth
16:08	devn	samaaron: i have noticed that a lot of the examples are out of date or are missing some info. for instance, there is composed_dubstep, but overtone.sc.machinery.defcgen seems to have moved
16:08	Wild_Cat	Bahman: if the subprocess returns 0, it means it executed correctly. Otherwise, it means an error of some sort occurred, in which case you shouldn't bother with whatever data it produced
16:08	samaaron	devn: that issue is fixed in 0.6-dev
16:08	Bahman	Wild_Cat: Thank you. That gave me an idea.
16:08	Saturnation	that's the front end, isn't it?
16:09	samaaron	Saturnation: well, it's a separate program entirely
16:09	samaaron	but if scsynth is in your PATH then you're probably good
16:09	Saturnation	I'm good
16:09	Saturnation	from that point of view
16:09	samaaron	ok, so just stick with lein repl for the time being
16:09	Saturnation	did that, still died :(
16:10	samaaron	it dies when you do `lein repl`?
16:10	Saturnation	for sanity, going to do this from my lein project...
16:10	samaaron	Saturnation: wait a moment
16:10	devn	samaaron: should I be using the localhost server or the internal server as my default for local dev?>
16:11	samaaron	Saturnation: just for the record, you just need to type `lein repl` and the JVM crashes?
16:11	Saturnation	no
16:11	samaaron	Saturnation: well, you're rushing ahead of yourself then ;-)
16:11	Saturnation	user => (require 'overtone.live) and JVM crashes
16:11	samaaron	Saturnation: I just mentioned `lein repl` nothing else...
16:12	quotemstr	#clojure, we need to talk about keyword arguments. I'm trying to get CL-equivalent semantics. Is there a concise way to provide a list of keys, a list of default values for each key, and means to signal an error if keys not on the list are supplied?
16:12	Saturnation	OK, reset, what would you like me to test?
16:12	samaaron	devn: this page might help https://github.com/overtone/overtone/wiki/Connecting-scsynth
16:12	samaaron	Saturnation: right now, I just want to see if you can make a sound with the master branch
16:12	daniel___	can anyone explain this error? https://gist.github.com/1398139
16:12	daniel___	im using openjdk6
16:13	samaaron	it seems that your jack<->overtone setup is broken
16:13	Saturnation	OK, what's the best way to make a sound?
16:13	Saturnation	agreed
16:13	samaaron	so i think we're best going with an external server
16:13	samaaron	so for that, you don't (use 'overtone.live)
16:13	samaaron	instead you (use 'overtone.core)
16:13	samaaron	and then (boot-external-server)
16:14	Saturnation	don't think I ever got (boot-external-server) to work ever
16:15	Saturnation	but was able to start the super collider server then connect to it fully the tutorials
16:15	Saturnation	spoke too soon maybe :)
16:15	devn	samaaron: curiously enough I'm blowing up now on overtone.live
16:16	samaaron	devn: which os?
16:16	devn	OSX, 10.7.2, I'm using a Presonus Firestudio
16:16	samaaron	devn: I have no idea what a "Presonus Firestudio" is. Which version of Overtone?
16:16	devn	0.5.0
16:17	samaaron	Saturnation: did booting the external server blow up?
16:17	Saturnation	nope, looked like it connected
16:17	Saturnation	but I accidentally killed the repl and can't get it to reconnect :(
16:17	devn	In SC: Number of Devices: 6, 0: ..., 2: ..., etc. followed by
16:17	samaaron	devn: is that a non-apple machine?
16:18	devn	input and output sample rates do not match. 44100 != 48000, could not initialize audio
16:18	samaaron	Saturnation: sounds like you're having fun!
16:18	Wild_Cat	Could Overtone be used as a VST-type audio source in a DAW?
16:18	Saturnation	:P
16:18	devn	I then start a swank server, and connect to the swank server
16:18	mdeboard	this kills the swank server
16:18	samaaron	devn: ah, that's an annoying problem - i'm not sure how to automatically fix it. The solution is to go open up Audio MIDI Setup and set the rate of built-in output to 44100Hz
16:19	devn	samaaron: will that cause overtone to crash?
16:19	samaaron	devn: yep, it causes SC to freak out, which causes Overtone to crash if you're trying to boot an internal server (internal server crashes kill the JVM process)
16:19	devn	samaaron: that fixed it. thanks.
16:20	samaaron	devn: great - i should really document that fix - unless someone knows some magic AppleSCript vodoo
16:20	samaaron	Saturnation: so do you have a repl fired up yet?
16:22	Saturnation	yep, but not connected to the server... Getting a message to stop the application using hw:0, but NOOO idea what applicaiton that is :(
16:23	samaaron	Saturnation: I'm not sure what that means...
16:23	Saturnation	it means I needed to kill my browser :)
16:23	Saturnation	OK, I'm there and started :)
16:24	samaaron	Saturnation: great
16:24	samaaron	Saturnation: so (demo (sin-osc)) works?
16:24	Saturnation	Houston, we have a beep! :)
16:24	Saturnation	yes it does
16:24	samaaron	Saturnation: hell yeah
16:24	samaaron	ok, now for the real test...
16:24	Saturnation	Oh :)
16:24	quotemstr	Why does Clojure use vector syntax for lambda lists again?
16:24	samaaron	do a (use 'overtone.inst.sampled-piano)
16:25	Saturnation	Failed to create temporary directory after 10000 attempts.
16:25	samaaron	Saturnation: oh crap
16:25	Saturnation	:(
16:25	samaaron	i wonder why that failed
16:26	Saturnation	I have no idea, but that won't stop me from having a look...
16:26	samaaron	Saturnation: are you still keen to help out?
16:26	Saturnation	as much as I'm able to
16:27	samaaron	go into the overtone.helpers.file ns
16:27	Saturnation	use use?
16:27	Saturnation	OK?
16:28	samaaron	(in-ns 'overtone.helpers.file)
16:28	Saturnation	eek
16:28	samaaron	Saturnation: still with it?
16:28	devn	samaaron: where do I get mdapiano?
16:29	Saturnation	yep, but some errors or warnings
16:29	Saturnation	Exception Error in checker for ugen binary-op-u-gen. Error: after initialisation, not all inputs to this ugen were numbers or other ugens (inputs which are explicitly allowed to be other data types (i.e strings) will have been converted to numbers at this point): [#<sc-ugen: binary-op-u-gen:ir [2]> overtone.helpers.file] overtone.sc.machinery.ugen.specs/with-ugen-checker-fn (specs.clj:133)
16:29	Saturnation	sorry
16:30	samaaron	devn: mdapiano sucks - you want to use the new sampled piano in 0.6-dev
16:30	samaaron	devn: but if you do want it, you need to use an external server with the bonus ugens installed
16:30	samaaron	Saturnation: what did you do?
16:31	Saturnation	typed the wrong thing, sorry :/
16:31	Saturnation	OK, in overtone.helper.file
16:31	samaaron	devn: it would be cool to see if you can get the sampled-piano working too - just do a fresh pull of overtone in a new dir, lein deps, lein repl, (use 'overtone.live), (use 'overtone.inst.sampled-piano)
16:32	samaaron	Saturnation: it should be overtone.helpers.file
16:32	Saturnation	yes, I typed badly :)
16:32	Saturnation	but I am there
16:32	samaaron	try (mk-tmp-dir!)
16:32	samaaron	same error?
16:33	Saturnation	yep, that failed
16:33	devn	samaaron: It's downloading it now
16:33	Saturnation	Exception Failed to create temporary directory after 10000 attempts. overtone.helpers.file/mk-tmp-dir! (file.clj:339)
16:33	samaaron	devn: awesome!!
16:33	devn	samaaron: I'll say. This is crazy.
16:33	samaaron	devn: :-) It's great when things work
16:33	devn	I did not expect that at all. I assumed I'd need to go all over creation moving things into the proper directories, installing stuff, etc.
16:34	samaaron	devn: haha - Overtone is the magic source
16:34	samaaron	well, only on OS X at the moment it seems...
16:34	devn	samaaron: since I'm using sampled-piano, do I just replace calls to piano with sampled-piano?
16:34	samaaron	devn: yup
16:35	samaaron	devn: and once you've downloaded it, it's cached in your ~/.overtone dir
16:35	samaaron	Saturnation: try (System/getProperty "java.io.tmpdir")
16:35	devn	samaaron: I'm trying to run the example Jeff Rose posted
16:35	Saturnation	it's /tmp
16:35	Saturnation	just looking at the code now
16:36	samaaron	devn: did it download already?
16:36	devn	He built a player fn that took piano as its second arg
16:36	devn	ah, wrong number of args
16:36	samaaron	devn: does (sampled-piano 60) work?
16:37	devn	samaaron: no unfortunately
16:37	samaaron	Saturnation: could you try evaluating (System/getProperty "java.io.tmpdir")
16:37	Saturnation	I did, it's tmp
16:37	samaaron	devn: oh - did it download successfully?
16:38	devn	samaaron: "Download successful", yes
16:38	Saturnation	just walking through the code at the repl now
16:38	samaaron	Saturnation: the output is "tmp"?
16:38	samaaron	Saturnation: not "/tmp"
16:38	samaaron	devn: could you take a look inside ~/.overtone/assets
16:39	devn	samaaron: I think it is actually playing, but it's not being routed to the right outputs
16:39	Saturnation	it is the tmp directory "/tmp"
16:39	samaaron	Saturnation: ok, great
16:39	Saturnation	samaaron, give a few minutes, I'll chase this one down...
16:39	devn	(sampled-piano 60) => 28, (sampled-piano 60) => 29, etc.
16:39	devn	so it looks like it's working, but the output is wrong
16:40	samaaron	devn: the 28 and 29 are the synth ids
16:40	samaaron	devn: does (demo (sin-osc)) work?
16:40	devn	samaaron: nod, my firestudio uses output 3/4 instead of 1/2 for the headphones
16:40	devn	so that's where the issue is I think
16:40	Saturnation	I think the issue may be that it's /tmp and not /tmp/?
16:41	samaaron	devn: weird that the sin-osc plays though
16:41	Saturnation	nope, not right...
16:41	devn	samaaron: it doesn't
16:41	devn	samaaron: do you know how to set the outputs explicitly to be 3/4 instead of 1/2?
16:41	samaaron	devn: ah, so you can't get any sound?
16:41	devn	samaaron: correct
16:41	samaaron	devn: where i come from nod means yes ;-)
16:42	devn	samaaron: ah, well it does "work", but I just don't hear it
16:42	devn	:)
16:42	samaaron	devn: also 0 is typically left and 1 is right
16:42	samaaron	so you might be on 2/3
16:42	Saturnation	I was right
16:43	samaaron	devn: but i have no quick solution for routing output to 2/3
16:43	Saturnation	samaaron, the file to string doesn't print the trailing / on directories it would appear
16:43	samaaron	Saturnation: cool - swap str with mk-path in the second line of the let clause after base-name
16:44	samaaron	Saturnation: we need to deal with windows which uses \
16:45	quotemstr	sigh Also, is anyone working on fixing contrib.error-kit to work with 1.3?
16:45	Saturnation	it's downloading now :)
16:45	quotemstr	contrib.error-kit is relying on the implicit dynamicness of variables.
16:45	samaaron	please try mk-dir - so i know i have a fix
16:45	devn	samaaron: regardless, how would one go about changing the outputs for a selected output device. I have 6 outputs and I just need to change which ones it is using
16:45	Saturnation	OK
16:45	samaaron	devn: i honestly don't know
16:46	samaaron	devn: i'll have to think about it
16:47	Saturnation	nope, didn't like mk-path :(
16:47	samaaron	devn: we've ever considered 2 channels - 0 and 1
16:47	samaaron	Saturnation: ah, my bad - that wouldn't work
16:48	Saturnation	it looks correct when printed out...
16:49	samaaron	Saturnation: could you try this: https://gist.github.com/1398198
16:50	samaaron	devn: so would would a solution look like for you?
16:50	devn	samaaron: i switched the cable and sure enough it is sending to 1/2 instead of 3/4
16:51	samaaron	devn: so you have sound now?
16:51	devn	well, sort of
16:51	samaaron	only the right channel works?
16:51	devn	my external device has a number of inputs and outputs
16:51	Saturnation	yay! :)
16:51	Saturnation	downloading now
16:52	samaaron	Saturnation: nice
16:52	devn	the default outputs are split left and right, but I use the output for headphones which is 3/4
16:52	samaaron	devn: if you unplug the external device, can you make a sound?
16:52	Saturnation	you did the hard bits
16:52	Saturnation	3% complete, this may take some time
16:52	samaaron	Saturnation: :-)
16:52	devn	samaaron: i know for a fact i can make sound, im just trying to figure out how to tell supercollider to use different default outputs
16:52	Saturnation	brb
16:53	devn	it has 6 outputs to choose from, it chooses the first two it sees. I want to tell it to use different ones
16:53	samaaron	devn: ok
16:53	samaaron	devn: the mailing list might be the best place for this
16:54	samaaron	devn: so with your external device, you have 0 and 1 on speakers and 2 and 3 on headphones?
16:55	devn	samaaron: in OSX they get referred to in the audio midi setup as: Master, 1: DAW 1, 2: DAW 2...6: DAW 6
16:55	devn	1 is Left, 2 is Right, 3 and 4 map to the headphone output
16:55	samaaron	devn: annoyingly supercollider is zero-indexed
16:56	samaaron	so (demo (sin-osc)) comes through the speakers, but not the headphones?
16:57	devn	samaaron: i moved the cable I had going from my headphone out to my speakers, and changed it to be the first output on the device (which is Left) going to the speakers
16:57	Saturnation	my new tag line may have to be "I'm Sam Aaron's code monkey..." :)
16:57	devn	I can get sound this way, but it is on one channel
16:57	samaaron	Saturnation: code monkey boy, code!
16:57	samaaron	devn: the demo will be one channel only
16:57	Saturnation	30%
16:58	samaaron	devn: can you hear the sampled-piano?
16:58	samaaron	even only on one channel?
16:58	devn	samaaron: yes, out of one channel, because i have two outputs, one of them is left, the other is right. do you see what I mean?
16:58	samaaron	YEY!
16:58	samaaron	so the asset manager thingy is working
16:58	devn	It is using the first outputs it finds. I want to say: no. start here instead.
16:59	devn	or no, use these specific outputs
16:59	samaaron	devn: that's not built in yet
16:59	duck1123	I just set up Overtone and played through the samples on the wiki. Pretty neat
16:59	samaaron	duck1123: brilliant
16:59	devn	samaaron: it seems like it must be. People have to have needed this in supercollider before.
16:59	samaaron	devn: oh, outputting to specific channels is
17:00	devn	yes, how do I do that?
17:00	samaaron	you'd have to write your own synths
17:00	devn	wha? this seems crazy. I'll figure it out
17:00	samaaron	devn: it's only crazy because you're the first to try to get Overtone working with a crazy powerful external device
17:01	samaaron	Overtone tries to make things easy for people
17:01	devn	samaaron: I think we are misunderstanding eachother.
17:01	samaaron	and so far everyone has just got stereo systems
17:01	samaaron	but if you stick to the primitives, you should be fine :-)
17:01	devn	This is not a problem with overtone. it is a supercollider setting or a hardware setting. I'm trying to determine how to get supercollider to change it's default outputs, not overtone.
17:01	samaaron	try: (demo (out 3 (sin-osc)))
17:01	devn	overtone should just send where supercollider knows to send to
17:02	samaaron	devn: I don't think you can get supercollider to change its default outputs
17:02	samaaron	devn: it's crazy low-level like that - we probably need to build those smarts into overtone itself
17:02	samaaron	devn: just like the noise limiting system i built
17:02	devn	samaaron: zero indexing indeed!
17:02	samaaron	devn: which you would expect sueprcollider to have
17:03	devn	(demo (out 2 (sin-osc))) and (demo (out 3 (sin-osc))) are where I want to send
17:03	samaaron	perfect
17:03	samaaron	ok, we need to think of a nice solution for overtone to handle this case
17:04	samaaron	so you essentially want to offset all output by n channels?
17:04	devn	yeah, basically
17:04	samaaron	so you'd lose access to 0 and 1
17:04	samaaron	but that would be ok?
17:05	devn	samaaron: yeah, that'd be fine -- i think the ideal solution would be something like:
17:05	devn	(defchannel speakers [0 1])
17:05	devn	or something like that, so you could define channel output groups to send to
17:06	samaaron	devn: yeah, maybe - ideas like that will need a lot of fleshing out
17:06	samaaron	we could definitely do with this kind of abstraction though
17:07	samaaron	we want to move away from supercollider's super low-level attitude to everything
17:07	Saturnation	83%
17:08	devn	samaaron: yeah, i don't mean to be a pain, honestly this could be fixed by just getting a couple of cables out of a box, but based on my experience with other applications like logic pro, etc. you can just say: "for this track, send output to 3/4"
17:08	devn	I figured the same would be true for supercollider
17:09	samaaron	devn: we have to start somewhere :-)
17:10	samaaron	Saturnation: be pleased you're getting % updates - I worked on that today :-)
17:10	Saturnation	something to do while we wait :)
17:10	samaaron	:-)
17:11	samaaron	devn: btw, if i'm coming across less friendly than usual - my apologies, but my mind isn't where it normally is
17:11	devn	samaaron: nono, not at all, i'm struggling to explain my setup and there were some small hurdles with 0 indexed outputs and so on
17:11	devn	samaaron: thanks for your help
17:11	Saturnation	Houston, we have sampled-piano!
17:11	samaaron	Saturnation: very cool
17:11	samaaron	so linux is in the house
17:11	Saturnation	anything else?
17:12	samaaron	Saturnation: yes - you now need to have fun with it! :-)
17:12	samaaron	Saturnation: devn: thanks so much for your help
17:12	Saturnation	thank you for all the work you've put into it
17:12	Saturnation	I'll do my best to play later
17:12	devn	samaaron: annnddd I fixed it.
17:12	samaaron	Saturnation: youan thank me by having fun with it
17:13	samaaron	s/youan/you can/
17:13	samaaron	devn: what did you do?
17:13	devn	samaaron: I opened up the configuration utility that came with the device that up until now seemed useless
17:13	devn	and I switched outputs 3-4 to be mixer instead of 1-2
17:14	samaaron	devn: ah, so you found a device-oriented fix?
17:15	devn	samaaron: nod
17:15	samaaron	devn: cool
17:15	devn	<-fool
17:15	samaaron	devn: although i still think you raise some important points
17:15	samaaron	devn: overtone should also be able to handle this sort of thing
17:16	devn	now to figure out how to get this to play with sampled-piano instead of piano
17:16	devn	piano sure took a lot of args
17:18	devn	samaaron: will there be additional params added to sampled-piano to set the length?
17:19	samaaron	devn: perhaps - it's just a pre-recorded sample being played back
17:19	samaaron	devn: we could run an envelope over it
17:20	samaaron	devn: but it does sound much better than the synth piano
17:21	samaaron	devn: happy to accept sample-piano improvement patches. I've not put any time into it - I just got it working. My efforts have been put into the asset manager stuff
17:22	samaaron	Overtone can now reference arbitrary wav files on thh web and cache them locally
17:22	samaaron	I feel like it's a huge step forward
17:28	kylert	\exit
17:28	lnostdal	does clojure hava a "common" (parent) data type that covers all integer types?
17:30	devn	samaaron: muahaha, sorry, got totally distracted with playing generated jazz progressions
17:31	Raynes	lnostdal: Number, I'd think.
17:31	lnostdal	but that covers non-integer types too, Raynes
17:32	Raynes	Oh, Integer types.
17:32	Raynes	Sorry, I've been awake for too long.
17:32	lnostdal	:)
17:32	samaaron	devn: that's ok, i got distracted by the cat wanting some fuss
17:32	samaaron	now it's time for bed
17:32	samaaron	devn: it's super cool that you're having fun with the jazz progressions :-)
17:32	devn	samaaron: thanks for the help. feel better.
17:32	Raynes	http://raynes.me/hfiles/mraow.mov
17:33	samaaron	devn: i'll try - but i'm sure it'll take quite some time
17:33	Raynes	<3 cats.
17:35	gfredericks	Raynes: they're fluffy.
17:35	Raynes	gfredericks and cute. :>
17:36	gfredericks	Raynes: that'd be an interesting slogan for me
17:36	Raynes	Yeah, linkinus decided to not put a semicolon there.
17:36	gfredericks	now I'm imagining it as the subtitle of a movie
17:42	technomancy	Raynes: seeing the backscroll about permissions, you can't actually read or set octal permissions until JDK 7
17:42	technomancy	you can just set the executable bit
17:43	Raynes	technomancy: Ah. Makes sense. /cc sritchie
17:43	technomancy	well... I would posit that it does not make sense.
17:43	technomancy	but that's how it is
17:48	danlarkin	because permissions aren't a feature of all the platforms to which java has been ported
17:48	danlarkin	therefore it cannot be supported
17:48	danlarkin	it's genius!
18:02	zakwilson	I had no idea Raynes was a teenager. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog.
18:05	Raynes	zakwilson: Indeed.
18:06	zakwilson	Well, good work. I know I'm using a library or two you've written somewhere, and that's more than I've contributed to any open source community as far as I'm aware.
18:06	Raynes	Heh, thanks.
18:18	alexbaranosky	hey guys, is cake still going to exist after the merger with Leiningen?
18:19	Raynes	alexbaranosky: It isn't going to be taken down and eliminated from the internet, one file system at a time if that's what you mean.
18:19	Raynes	It'll only be actively developed as long as we still need it for our projects at Geni.
18:19	Raynes	Which realistically means a couple of months, probably.
18:21	alexbaranosky	Raynes, I tried to download it via the script I found on the site, but the url wasn't found
18:21	alexbaranosky	Raynes, I'm wondering if I should be keeping the cake-midje plugin up to date with the lein one
18:21	Raynes	Don't bother.
18:22	Raynes	As for the URL problem, no clue. It's been down for a while and I'm unclear about whether or not it is intentionally not being brought back up.
18:24	alexbaranosky	Raynes, thanks for the info, I now know I can leave cake's Midje plugin to rot :)
18:25	Raynes	Feels good, doesn't it? Being able to only maintain one thing.
18:25	alexbaranosky	yes, especially since I don't even have cake setup on my machine -- I couldn't even get past that one initial stage =D
18:31	zakwilson	What's this? Lein/cake merger?
18:32	ibdknox	and the people rejoice :)
18:32	zakwilson	Yes, probably a good thing.
18:33	ibdknox	definitely a good thing!
18:33	zakwilson	Hey, wait. You're the korma guy, aren't you?
18:33	ibdknox	maybe
18:33	ibdknox	:)
18:33	zakwilson	Yes if I have a compliment, no if I have a complaint?
18:33	ibdknox	basically.
18:33	ibdknox	haha
18:33	ibdknox	What's up?
18:34	zakwilson	I haven't used it yet. I did poke around the site and source though. What does it do with dates?
18:34	ibdknox	JDBC turns them into java.sql.TimeStamps
18:34	alexbaranosky	zakwilson, if you're looking for help with your love life, korma's not that kind of thing
18:35	ibdknox	everyone loves indian food!
18:35	ibdknox	:p
18:35	zakwilson	alexbaranosky: I disagree. My girlfriend loves it when I make curry.
18:35	ibdknox	mine does too :D
18:35	zakwilson	Are java.sql.TimeStamps those horrible things based on java.util.Date?
18:36	ibdknox	I believe so
18:36	ibdknox	I just convert them into millis
18:36	ibdknox	that isn't specific to Korma though
18:36	ibdknox	all java.jdbc will do that
18:36	ibdknox	I believe
18:37	zakwilson	Right, I had that impression. I wonder how hard it would be to make it use clj-time.
18:37	zakwilson	And what were the people who wrote the Java data libraries smoking?
18:37	ibdknox	lol
18:37	ibdknox	well the trivial solution is to just convert them
18:38	ibdknox	fixing the use of java.sql.timestamp would likely mean changing the sql drivers
18:38	ibdknox	which isn't worth the effort
18:39	zakwilson	http://pastebin.com/CUyv7rSA <-- is this reasonable, or is there a better way?
18:41	ibdknox	not sure, like I said, I always just convert to millis :)
18:43	zakwilson	Fair enough. Thanks for trying to make the nasty little problems a little nicer. SQL has the most horrid syntax....
18:44	ibdknox	haha you're telling me, ugh
18:44	ibdknox	people keep telling me about quirks between them
19:02	zakwilson	Yeah, that's potentially nasty too. I think it actually might be better if databases all had different query languages and abstraction was done at the library level.
19:11	gfredericks	zakwilson: we could call it JDBC
19:12	ibdknox	lol
19:16	zakwilson	JDBC, as I understand it doesn't abstract away any of the differences in SQL.
19:16	gfredericks	oh. then that would be a bad name for it.
19:17	gfredericks	maybe korma?
19:17	amalloy	yes it does
19:18	amalloy	eg getting table metadata takes different describe commands in postgres vs mysql,. but i'm fairly sure it's the same in jdbc
19:18	zakwilson	Of course, I haven't used JDBC directly and don't know what the hell I'm talking about.
19:19	ibdknox	JDBC does do some unification
19:19	ibdknox	though it doesn't unify SQL differences itself
19:19	ibdknox	things like "AS" for example
19:20	ibdknox	basically it's a mess :)
19:21	zakwilson	I bet half the nosql movement wouldn't exist if relational databases came with a nice query language.
19:21	ibdknox	hm, how would you do it better?
19:22	Raynes	He wouldn't do it at all and would instead opt to write things his application needs to store down on paper and place them in file cabinents.
19:22	ibdknox	woah
19:22	ibdknox	that's awesome, isn't storage space pretty limited though?
19:22	zakwilson	It has already been done better, I suspect. QUEL looks like a nicer language than SQL.
19:23	ibdknox	how's lookup time?
19:23	gfredericks	ibdknox: I think your wrist would be the bottleneck before the cabinet size would be
19:23	ibdknox	lol
19:23	ibdknox	true
19:23	zakwilson	To generalize, I'd give it a more regular syntax and try to make it easy for the query language to be a compiler target.
19:23	gfredericks	hence cabinet size is effectively infinite, and we all need to switch to cabinet-persistence
19:24	ibdknox	zakwilson: my sql compiler is < 500 lines
19:24	zakwilson	I'd probably just make it based on data structure literals. I suspect it would look lispy.
19:25	ibdknox	SQL would be fine if everyone adhered cleanly to the specs
19:26	ibdknox	and for the most part they do
19:26	ibdknox	otherwise korma wouldn't work at all
19:26	ibdknox	lol
19:26	zakwilson	As a compiler target, sure. As a language for using directly... it's pretty bad.
19:27	tolstoy	The guys I knew who worked a lot with it would always "tune" queries to appeal to the underlying engine. And re-arrange tables to work at "scale". The promise of SQL sort of disappears after a while.
19:27	ibdknox	that's true
19:28	zakwilson	The relational model is actually pretty nice for most apps, but real databases feel like they're from the stone age.
19:28	gfredericks	funny when the stone age things are the ones with all the features
19:28	tolstoy	Yeah, I like SQL if I get to use it without thinking about "performance" and so on. Nice and declarative.
19:29	gfredericks	and the new things are the simple ones
19:29	amalloy	seancorfield: is your clj-time repo the official one?
19:29	Raynes	It is.
19:29	ibdknox	what happened to the other one?
19:30	ibdknox	huh
19:30	ibdknox	I missed this... when did getwoven disappear?
19:30	ibdknox	and why?
19:32	zakwilson	SQL is declarative, but it isn't very nice. Mixed prefix, infix and postfix, prepositions that don't actually do anything, but have to be there, different syntax for closely related operations (I'm thinking of create/alter and insert/update)
19:33	zakwilson	If I tried to push a programming language with nice semantics (say... those of Clojure) and a syntax like that, somebody would probably force me to have a psych evaluation.
19:33	ibdknox	:D
19:33	zakwilson	JS has some warts, but it's no SQL.
19:33	gfredericks	o_O
19:33	ibdknox	...
19:34	gfredericks	I think in terms of obvious ways it could have been better....
19:34	tolstoy	zakwilson: I guess so. But when faced with an SQL string vs Hypernate (or some such scheme)….
19:34	zakwilson	PHP is bad too, but everyone here probably knows that already.
19:34	tolstoy	Hibernate? Something like that.
19:34	ibdknox	PHP is bad for very different reasons than JS
19:34	zakwilson	I've never used Hibernate. The only ORMs I've used a clsql and activerecord.
19:34	ibdknox	and very different reasons the SQL
19:35	gfredericks	I can't imagine anyone choosing to use JavaScript if it hadn't been defaulted on them
19:35	zakwilson	Are you aware of node.js? It's the latest trendy thing. Everybody's doing it.
19:35	gfredericks	yes I am.
19:35	ibdknox	because they started with JS
19:35	zakwilson	(except me - I'm with you on that - don't see the point)
19:36	tolstoy	My boss LOVES node.js. I keep getting hints. Like "Threaded app servers are a legacy architecture."
19:36	ibdknox	haha
19:36	ibdknox	I've tried building something large and performant in node
19:36	ibdknox	It was painful
19:36	ibdknox	and not performant :)
19:37	zakwilson	Using events by default seems backwards. Most things you'd want to do probably shouldn't be event-based. Futures are nice.
19:37	tolstoy	Seems like it might be okay for a simple, single-purpose API, but I end up writing apps which have (say) and MQ broker sending stuff out, or what have you, and I don't see how node handles that.
19:37	tolstoy	Erlang, on the other hand....
19:37	ibdknox	zakwilson: are you zak on HN?
19:38	tolstoy	zakwilson: I've been trying to find research about events vs threads, and I can't make much sense of it. events for mostly do-nothing, long-running connections, threads for quick request/response. shrug
19:38	zakwilson	ibdknox: yes
19:39	zakwilson	tolstoy: thread pools managed by your runtime for all of it.
19:39	tolstoy	zakwilson: By "much sense" I mean most of it seem alike advocacy.
19:39	ibdknox	zakwilson: did my response on the reasoning behind Korma answer your question?
19:39	zakwilson	tolstoy: oh, of course it is.
19:40	zakwilson	ibdknox: yes. I'm convinced enough to give it a try on the project I should work on later tonight after I get the project I've been procrastinating on done.
19:40	ibdknox	haha
19:40	ibdknox	use 0.3.0-alpha5
19:41	Raynes	ibdknox: We require new noir version with new lein-noir version using my fork.
19:41	zakwilson	Why?
19:41	clojurebot	why not?
19:41	ibdknox	Raynes: haha we require it, huh?
19:41	alexbaranosky	~shrimp
19:41	clojurebot	shrimp are small
19:42	Raynes	ibdknox: I REQUIRE IT.
19:42	Raynes	(require new.lein.noir.version)
19:43	ibdknox	well
19:43	ibdknox	I think 1.2.2 will be coming out next weekend probably
19:43	ibdknox	I need to do a docs pass
19:44	Raynes	Acceptable.
19:44	Raynes	ibdknox: Have you considered marginalia? As in, would you accept a patch to add marg docs?
19:44	zakwilson	Why do I want to use the alpha? Will it differ greatly from the docs?
19:44	ibdknox	zakwilson: bug fixes, and a better syntax for with
19:45	ibdknox	Raynes: marg couldn't run over the project last time I tried
19:45	Raynes	ibdknox: Bullshit.
19:45	Raynes	Give me 20 seconds.
19:45	ibdknox	Raynes: hah
19:45	Raynes	I'm the bloody king of marginalia.
19:45	gfredericks	one of those bots needs a stopwatch
19:45	ibdknox	Raynes: there was some issue with having hiccup in it
19:51	ambrosebs	who's got a Confluence admin account? My account needs editing privs (ambrosebs)
19:51	ambrosebs	please
19:56	devn	ambrosebs: any rush? i think i saw you posted to the ML about this, yeah?
19:56	ambrosebs	:) just excited about creating a page for compiler hooks
19:57	ambrosebs	I can wait
19:57	ibdknox	compiler hooks?
19:58	ambrosebs	currently there is no entry point for customizing the compiler
19:58	devn	ambrosebs: I don't have admin. Sorry man.
19:58	ambrosebs	for example, I want to perform some type checking when every top level form is evaled
19:58	ambrosebs	or "analyse"d
19:59	ibdknox	I see
19:59	ambrosebs	much easier to target Clourescript atm
20:00	ibdknox	yeah, there was talk of this at the Conj
20:00	ibdknox	about exposing analysis
20:00	ibdknox	it would be very useful for tools :)
20:01	devn	ibdknox: you need some noir and pinot logos
20:02	ibdknox	as I am a mediocre visual designer, I always do text logos :)
20:02	ibdknox	Pinot needs to have a real release too
20:02	devn	ibdknox: if i came up with a couple for you to peek at maybe?
20:03	ibdknox	sure!
20:09	devn	I'm not so great at it myself, but I've been trying to learn. I have an eye but I don't know a lot of the tools well enough to make what I want.
20:10	ibdknox	devn: yeah, I'm the same. Worked with some world class designers, so I know good graphic design, I just haven't worked enough at it to get above "meh"
20:13	devn	your colors are really nice
20:22	brehaut	ibdknox: it makes a huge difference having worked with good designers though
20:23	ibdknox	brehaut: yes it does
20:23	brehaut	you do internalize a lot of the smaller details
20:25	devn	ibdknox: https://skitch.com/thinkslate/gma6i/noir
20:25	devn	ibdknox: ;)
20:32	devn	ibdknox: that is of course, a picture of dick tracy
20:33	alexbaranosky	devn, ibdknox: Dick Tracey is of course, the shit
20:34	devn	hah
20:34	alexbaranosky	devn: did I see you had an autotest project on github?
20:35	alexbaranosky	or lazytest - something near to that
20:38	devn	alexbaranosky: I'm cleaning up my github, that's Stuart Sierra's
20:40	alexbaranosky	Are there any Boston-area Clojure jobs with opening these days? I'd love to be going to work tomorrow to do Clojure instead of Java/Scala... I know there's Sonian, but not sure if they're hiring.
20:55	devn	alexbaranosky: careful, this channel is logged publicly
20:55	devn	:)
20:55	alexbaranosky	ha
20:59	tolstoy	I have to admit, being able to use a Mac and work in a fun language (Clojure, Erlang, even Scala) would be a plus for me, but what I'd REALLY like is a shop with clear business goals. Even if they last one month at a time.
21:01	devn	tolstoy: what if they last for more than a month but they aren't your own?
21:01	devn	i don't know that i value consistency over evolvability
21:02	tolstoy	devn: I value clarity, more and more.
21:02	devn	but maybe that is a false dichotomy
21:02	tolstoy	Yeah.
21:02	devn	a thing can be consistent in its evolvability, or evolvably consistent
21:03	tolstoy	A lot of times we argue for this or that architecture, this or that technology choice. The sad thing is, just about anything can work. But clear business goals help focus the decisions.
21:03	devn	tolstoy: to what end?
21:04	tolstoy	To the end of achieving the goals.
21:04	devn	goals are too specific IMO. "intentions" are more important.
21:05	devn	they're more malleable.
21:05	tolstoy	Well, hm.
21:06	tolstoy	Maybe we mean the same thing with goals/intentions.
21:06	devn	maybe. but goals are often hard-coded. "this is the concrete goal"
21:06	alexbaranosky	tolstoy, you're just saying you want to work somewhere with direction?
21:06	tolstoy	I don't mean, "A web form with three fields," as a goal, for instance. But it would be nice to know if keeping petabytes of data for 10 years is a goal.
21:07	tolstoy	alexbaranosky: Yeah. Well, I mean, over time, I find myself less concerned with my tools, and more interested in having clarity on the problem I need to solve.
21:07	devn	concreteness in the face of uncertainty seems foolish, which is why i prefer to think of intentions instead. if our intention is to get a lot of users, that is different from a goal of getting a lot of users. one of them is a finish line, the other is a sequence of possible finish lines
21:08	tolstoy	Or maybe more accurately, why these problems and not others need to be solved, or the context in which the problems are even meaningful beyond just your boss telling you to do it.
21:08	devn	heh, well, that is one for the ages.
21:08	alexbaranosky	tolstoy: I agree, to an extent, but certain tools are better fits for certain jobs, and certain tools are just better all around - just mho
21:09	tolstoy	alexbaranosky: Yep. I agree wholeheartedly.
21:09	mdeboard	Noir's philosophy in 38 seconds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USlnfTGlhXc
21:10	devn	mdeboard: hahahahaha
21:10	tolstoy	Heh. That's what I tell all my slaves.
21:11	mdeboard	devn: ibdknox's post on the listserv reminded me
21:11	devn	mdeboard: we should put stuart halloway's face over bruce lee's
21:14	alexbaranosky	Would anyone local to the Boston are be interested in getting together for Clojure hacking sessions?
21:15	alexbaranosky	actually that might be a good question for the mailing list
21:15	tmciver	alexbaranosky: absolutely!
21:15	devn	alexbaranosky: start a meetup
21:15	alexbaranosky	dev: do you have your graphic design software out to get to work on that?
21:16	alexbaranosky	tmciver: are you around beantown? I'm in E. Boston
21:16	tmciver	There is a Boston Clojure meetup already and they're due for another one soon.
21:16	tolstoy	mdeboard: That post is great.
21:16	tmciver	alexbaranosky: yeah, north of Boston
21:16	mdeboard	tolstoy: It is indeed
21:16	mdeboard	I don't compare just anyone to Bruce lee
21:17	alexbaranosky	tmciver, yeah, but they're so infrequent, and also, I think it'd be cool to focus on contributing to open source
21:17	alexbaranosky	tmciver: I didn't meet you at the Conj did I ?
21:18	tmciver	alexbaranosky: I'm not sure :\
21:18	alexbaranosky	tmciver: me neither hehe
21:19	tmciver	alexbaranosky: are you a member of the Boston meetup group?
21:19	alexbaranosky	tmciver: I am - I was at the last one with the angry Racket programmer
21:19	tolstoy	mdeboard: I get the idea that ibdknox has begun to think of web development as a fine art. I like it.
21:20	tmciver	Oh yeah, we did meet! :)
21:21	alexbaranosky	tmciver: is your name Tim? I think Rob and I might have talked to you about our BAZNEX group??
21:21	lazybot	alexbaranosky: Definitely not.
21:21	tmciver	Yes, I was just trying to remember that name.
21:22	alexbaranosky	well, we were sortof thinking that something like that, but only for Clojure programmers might be interesting, because we could send out messages to the different lips/clojure groups locally and get more people to hack with
21:23	alexbaranosky	tmciver: http://groups.google.com/group/baznex
21:23	tmciver	alexbaranosky: Yeah, I was just checking it out. Did you guys ever meet at Sprout?
21:24	alexbaranosky	probably this wweek, the day before thanksgiving was a dumb idea
21:24	mdeboard	tolstoy: He's been doing it a long time, he probably doesn't even see the numbers anymore; all he sees now is blonde, brunette, redhead.
21:26	tmciver	alexbaranosky: I'll definitely be at the next meeting if I can make it.
21:27	alexbaranosky	tmciver: how much time in advance is it best for you to know, for scheduling? We've been being very impromptu about it, but that should really change - we should make the schedule firmer for people like you who have to travel into Boston a little
21:29	tmciver	alexbaranosky: it's no problem. I work in Cambridge and have been going into town from work occasionally lately. I'm flexible.
21:30	tmciver	alexbaranosky: in fact, I'll sign up for the google group now.
21:30	alexbaranosky	tmciver: great, we always talk on the google group about upcoming gatherings
21:31	alexbaranosky	I've hit a bit of a wall in adding method stubbing/mocking to Midje
21:31	mdeboard	Indianapolis y u no have clojure meetups
21:31	tmciver	alexbaranosky: Done. So is there a meetup planned for Wednesday?
21:31	alexbaranosky	mdeboard, why u no started one?
21:32	mdeboard	alexbaranosky: I don't have the time or I would have already
21:32	alexbaranosky	let me post about it. I think yes is the answer
21:32	alexbaranosky	time is an underrepresented form of wealth
21:33	mdeboard	alexbaranosky: Indeed. Single parenthood + an hour-long commute every day = huge time drain
21:33	gfredericks	make the kid do the commute instead: both problems solved.
21:35	alexbaranosky	hey tmciver: just add yourself to the thread I started saying you're interested :)
21:38	tmciver	alexbaranosky: Done.
21:41	alexbaranosky	tmciver: great. !
21:41	alexbaranosky	it's always good to bring your laptop, since we pair a lot on stuff, more laptops is best
21:45	tmciver	alexbaranosky: Yup, I was going to anyway.
21:50	tmciver	alexbaranosky: Wednesday is the 30th . . .
21:50	tmciver	alexbaranosky: did you mean this Wednesday?
21:50	alexbaranosky	crap
21:50	alexbaranosky	hehe
21:51	alexbaranosky	let me fix post again. I'll add your interest to my post, so you don't have to post again
21:51	tmciver	cool
21:51	alexbaranosky	I looked at the calendar for November... durrr
21:51	tmciver	and you call yourself a geek . . .
21:51	alexbaranosky	I'm a dumb geek though
21:52	tmciver	It's OK, me too.
22:02	quotemstr	What's wrong with (use 'clojure.string '(split)) ?
22:04	tmciver	quotemstr: are you referring to the warnings from name conflicts?
22:04	trptcolin	,(use '[clojure.string :only [split]])
22:04	clojurebot	nil
22:04	quotemstr	trptcolin: The documentation says "list", so I thought round brackets.
22:04	trptcolin	that'll work too
22:04	quotemstr	tmciver: I'm trying to work around those warnings.
22:04	trptcolin	,(use '[clojure.string :only (split)])
22:04	clojurebot	nil
22:04	quotemstr	user=> (refer 'clojure.string :only '(split))
22:04	quotemstr	Exception No namespace: clojure.string clojure.core/refer (core.clj:3761)
22:05	quotemstr	use gives the same error.
22:05	trptcolin	you need the whole thing wrapped in a vector like mine
22:06	quotemstr	Ah!
22:07	trptcolin	it would be nice to have an examples in the use docstring, but until then: http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
22:08	trptcolin	err, pretend i know about grammar and that i said "an example"
22:08	quotemstr	Okay, (use '[clojure.string :only (split)]) works but (use '(clojure.string :only (split))) doesn't.
22:09	quotemstr	Aren't both just seqs?
22:09	quotemstr	Is there a way to just refer to string.split directly?
22:10	trptcolin	libspecs have to be vectors
22:10	trptcolin	or symbols
22:10	quotemstr	Actually, that reminds me: if I'm storing pairs of things, should I use a two-element vector, a two-element list, or something else?
22:11	amalloy	two-element vectors are most common
22:11	quotemstr	Aha!
22:11	quotemstr	Thanks for the blog post.
22:12	quotemstr	And while we're on namespaces: I want to load-file, but in the context of a particular namespace (or a particular lexical environment, more generally). Is there a high-level way to do that?
22:12	quotemstr	And in the repl, once I (ns foo), doc no longer works. Where does it come from?
22:12	amalloy	you can't really eval code in a non-null lexical environment
22:12	quotemstr	Ah, repl.
22:13	quotemstr	amalloy: Well, I want to load a configuration file, and I want to define some primitives for the configuration file to use.
22:13	amalloy	(eval `(let [...] ~(read the file)))
22:14	amalloy	is the only way i can think to do it
22:20	quotemstr	Or just have the configuration file begin with a namespace directive. I'll just do that.
22:20	quotemstr	Thanks.
22:21	quotemstr	Actually, one more thing: using immutable locals is _very_ inconvenient in some cases. One example is doing some complex text layout where multiple sets of coordinates need to be maintained and updated.
22:21	quotemstr	How bad is it to use vars even when there's no thread-dependent state?
22:22	amalloy	vars are usually the wrong tool. a ref or atom makes more sense, if you can't restructure it to be immutable (which is always possible, of course, but might not be most convenient, as you say)
22:23	quotemstr	Using a ref for something only modified by one thread feels wrong somehow.
22:23	amalloy	not as wrong as a var for something that isn't top-level
22:24	quotemstr	Hrm, okay.
22:24	quotemstr	Why is #' a reader macro? Is (var foo) all that common?
22:24	amalloy	plus they're move convenient anyway, with alter/swap! functions instead of var-set/var-get
22:25	amalloy	huh, good question. it does seem like an odd choice, just to save three or four characters
22:28	amalloy	perhaps it's a remnant from a time when vars were more-special in some way, and (var foo) didn't exist
22:28	amalloy	but that's just a crazy guess. who can know why rich added #'
22:30	quotemstr	Well, it does conveniently stomp on a common CLism. :-)
22:30	amalloy	i don't get "stomp on" in this context. i mean, i know what #' does in CL, but...?
22:31	quotemstr	It conflicts, that's all.
22:31	quotemstr	It's still habit to write #'function.
22:32	amalloy	quotemstr: well, that still works
22:32	amalloy	&(map #'inc [1 2 3 4])
22:32	lazybot	⇒ (2 3 4 5)
22:32	quotemstr	Oh, right.
22:32	quotemstr	Because functions are vars.
22:32	amalloy	it's a bad habit, but not an actual problem
22:32	amalloy	because vars are functions
22:32	amalloy	or i guess you could think of it that way
22:32	quotemstr	amalloy: The other way around, yes?
22:33	amalloy	&(ifn? #'inc)
22:33	lazybot	⇒ true
22:33	amalloy	vars are functions which, when called, delegate to their current value'
22:33	amalloy	whereas not every function is a var
22:34	quotemstr	Ah.
22:34	quotemstr	So that's why all defs are highlighted in font-lock-function-name-face.
22:38	amalloy	i doubt if that's related. it's not like the parser knows "clojure thinks this is a function"; whoever wrote the syntax highlighter just figured things you def at the top level should stand out and might as well be highlighted as functions
22:39	trptcolin	before i post this to the dev list, anybody see anything silly i'm missing with this clojure.java.io issue? https://gist.github.com/1398972
22:40	trptcolin	i have a patch ready for it, just would love another set of eyes - getting shot down over IRC doesn't hurt as bad
22:42	amalloy	trptcolin: doesn't really seem like an issue related to java.io, does it?
22:43	trptcolin	i feel like the Coercions protocol should handle the encoding/decoding
22:43	trptcolin	as-file / as-url
22:43	ambrosebs	gtrak: you might be interested in following this project https://github.com/frenchy64/typed-clojure
22:43	amalloy	jio/resource is just delegating to .getResource on the classloader
22:43	trptcolin	yeah jio/resource is cool
22:44	trptcolin	but when readers & writers get constructed, that's the problem
22:44	amalloy	maybe you could clarify what change you plan to make?
22:45	trptcolin	yep, that'll help :)
22:45	trptcolin	https://gist.github.com/1398988
22:49	trptcolin	.toURL is what's currently used on the File (as-url ...) coercion, and that's deprecated in java 1.6; but my real issue is with slurping resource URLs, and i'm feeling decent about the change
22:50	trptcolin	but usually when i feel this confident about a problem in clojure i'm wrong :)
22:52	trptcolin	i guess normally resources are in jarfiles, so things like spaces would be much rarer...
22:54	technomancy	trptcolin: hey... someone suggested that your ns blog post would make a good replacement for http://clojure.org/libs
22:56	jodaro	hrm
22:56	trptcolin	that came up on the mailing list awhile back (I think on Alex's initial clojure.org push), didn't seem to get much clojure/core traction
22:56	jodaro	lein daemon should fork and return me to the shell, no?
22:57	technomancy	trptcolin: if you know the thread I can pipe up in favour
22:57	trptcolin	not sure if it just fell through the cracks or if there was actual opposition. i can understand wanting clojure.org to be docstring-y
22:57	trptcolin	lemme take a look
22:57	technomancy	Rich actually said during dinner at the conj that he always has to look up examples to remember how ns works, so ... I think that's a pretty good argument for needing better docs =)
22:58	technomancy	trptcolin: did you see http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-879 ?
22:58	trptcolin	yeah, i like it
22:59	trptcolin	i also kind of like the idea that came up on the list (maybe hiredman?) about using symbols instead of keywords in the ns macro
22:59	trptcolin	especially since it already works, as someone (amalloy?) pointed out
23:00	trptcolin	so (ns foo (require bar))
23:00	technomancy	I think the point of keywords is that it looks more declarative, which I can buy
23:00	technomancy	to switch to symbols you would have to rewrite require-the-function to make it work exactly like the require clause of ns
23:00	technomancy	otherwise you're just asking for confusion
23:01	trptcolin	require-the-function?
23:01	trptcolin	oh, nm
23:01	trptcolin	gotcha
23:02	technomancy	discussing breaking changes right after 1.3 has landed definitely falls into the category of long-term dreaming =)
23:03	trptcolin	:)
23:07	trptcolin	here's that thread: https://groups.google.com/d/topic/clojure-dev/JluIepQCGbI/discussion - looks like Andy, Alex, & I had a brief offline chat about it, but didn't land anywhere
23:07	technomancy	thanks
23:17	ckirkendall	does anyone no a good way in clojure script to check for the type NodeList
23:17	ckirkendall	*know
23:17	dnolen	did you try (instance? js/NodeList x)
23:19	ckirkendall	dnolen: crap I forgot the "js" thx!
23:20	quotemstr	Why isn't every deref in a transaction an ensure?
23:21	hiredman	quotemstr: deref derefs many things besides refs
23:23	quotemstr	Okay, so why isn't every deref or a ref an ensure?
23:23	hiredman	deref on a ref?
23:24	hiredman	because then there would be no way to get the value of a ref without ensuring it
23:24	quotemstr	Why would you want to do that?
23:25	hiredman	because you may have a most unrelated ref you just want to grab whatever value from
23:25	hiredman	mostly
23:30	amalloy	eg maybe you want to log a message like "about N% done" - doesn't have to be super-accurate, but you'd like to deref the %-done ref
23:31	mdeboard	alexbaranosky: nice :P http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3283713