#clojure – 2011-10-30

2011-10-30

04:33	spoon16	anyone using jenkins for clojure projects?
04:33	spoon16	looking for some information on configuring a leiningen project in Jenkins
04:36	scottj	spoon16: idk but chas made a video about clojure+hudson and a blog post maybe 1.25 years ago
04:37	spoon16	I'll look for it
05:19	callen	the clojurebox site appears to be down.
05:19	callen	not sure what's going on there.
05:55	zilti	I hate having to ask again, but I'm trying to get noir up and running... Locally (using "lein ring server") everything works perfect, but as soon as I'm deploying it using "lein ring uberwar" I get this: http://lyrion.ch/beta
05:55	zilti	Using ring 1.0.0-RC1
06:09	zilti	I hate having to ask again, but I'm trying to get noir up and running... Locally (using "lein ring server") everything works perfect, but as soon as I'm deploying it using "lein ring uberwar" I get this: http://lyrion.ch/beta
06:09	callen	zilti: don't repeat yourself.
06:09	callen	zilti: it's a waste of time and pollutes the channel.
06:09	callen	zilti: everytime you repeat yourself, I drown a kitten. Capiche?
06:11	zilti	NOOO not the kitten
08:23	raek	zilti: did you get an answer to the proxy question?
08:23	zilti	raek: Yes, it's working now.
08:44	zilti	Huh why can't I recur in a (while [...] (if ?
08:46	raek	,(macroexpand-1 '(while condition body))
08:46	clojurebot	(clojure.core/loop [] (clojure.core/when condition body (recur)))
08:47	zilti	"Did you mean: loop?"
08:47	raek	zilti: what do you mean by "can't recur"?
08:48	zilti	Use recur there. But yeah, I meant loop instead of while, mistyped that stuff...
08:49	raek	zilti: you mean using recur in the body of a loop form? that should work.
08:49	zilti	Yes, it does
08:53	archaic	i have a problem where incanters matrix is not respecting repls print-length any advice on how to fix this? (slime/emacs)
10:45	gfredericks	,(+ 5 6)
10:45	clojurebot	11
10:58	zilti	Is there some sort of let that "generates" vals based on a zipmap?
11:13	gfredericks	zilti: not quite sure what you mean. Try giving some example code (with your made-up syntax) and explain what it does?
11:13	zilti	gfredericks: I mean something like (let [{a 10 b 50}] ...) which does the same as (let [a 10 b 50] ...)
11:14	gfredericks	zilti: so then you'd be able to (let [m {'x 12}] (let [m] (inc x))) => 13?
11:15	zilti	gfredericks: I meant more like (let [{m 12}] (inc m) => 13
11:16	gfredericks	zilti: what's the advantage there? isn't that the same as (let [m 12] (inc m)) but with two more characters?
11:16	zilti	gfredericks: I want to use this in a macro where I have a list of argument-names and a list of arguments
11:17	gfredericks	zilti: so you have a map and you're trying to generate a let expression for it?
11:18	gfredericks	,(let [m {'a 71 'b :foo}] `(let [~@(apply concat m)] foo bar))
11:18	clojurebot	(clojure.core/let [a 71 b :foo] sandbox/foo sandbox/bar)
11:18	gfredericks	^ any reason that wouldn't work?
11:19	zilti	Ah concat... ok
11:19	zilti	tbh I'm not yet sure what's the difference between ~ and ~@
11:19	gfredericks	~@ unpacks a sequence.
11:19	clojurebot	@ splices in a seq and foo# is a symbol, not a seq
11:20	gfredericks	`(x y ~@[:a :b :c])
11:20	gfredericks	,`(x y ~@[:a :b :c])
11:20	clojurebot	(sandbox/x sandbox/y :a :b :c)
11:20	gfredericks	vs
11:20	babilen	zilti: I found http://www.learningclojure.com/2010/09/clojure-macro-tutorial-part-i-getting.html (and subsequent parts) to be quite helpful to clarify this among other things.
11:20	zilti	I see
11:20	gfredericks	,`(x y ~[:a :b :c])
11:20	clojurebot	(sandbox/x sandbox/y [:a :b :c])
11:21	zilti	(inc gfredericks)
11:21	lazybot	⇒ 3
11:21	zilti	babilen: Thanks, I already know these links, but haven't worked them through yet
11:21	babilen	zilti: Hehe :)
11:22	zilti	It wasn't exactly clear to me what "splice" means in this context
11:22	duck1123	~@ is like the macro version of apply
11:22	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
11:22	duck1123	I wasn't talking to you clojurebot
11:22	zilti	lol
11:22	morphling	clojurebot: @
11:22	clojurebot	@ , {a b c]
11:23	gfredericks	what a weirdo
11:23	morphling	clojurebot: what is @
11:23	clojurebot	Alles klar
11:23	duck1123	if you do ~ it puts the value as is, if you do ~@ it inserts each item of the seq into the code
11:24	gfredericks	keep in mind that neither ~ nor ~@ give you any additional power in a macro -- any macro could be written without them, just more verbosely and less readably
11:25	zilti	Oh, clojurebot speaks german
11:27	zilti	I have a "(fn ['~'~@argslist] '~'~body)" now. Argslist are normal arguments in a vector (as in (def [x y z])). Could it be that this causes a "Can't use qualified name as parameter" error?
11:28	gfredericks	oh man I can't imagine that you actually have a reason to use '~'~@
11:28	gfredericks	zilti: maybe you should describe on a higher level what you're trying to do
11:28	duck1123	zilti: why are you quoting everything?
11:29	zilti	Well... emh... I don't know an alternative to it
11:29	gfredericks	zilti: what's your motivation for using macros in the first place?
11:30	zilti	gfredericks: To avoid having to repeat myself over and over in the code
11:30	llasram	So I noticed that on the alioth shootout benchmmarks, the Clojure implementation of the "n-body" bench mark is the largest of all the implementations code-wise, about 2x the size of the (average-ish) Java version
11:30	gfredericks	zilti: what sort of repetition?
11:30	llasram	I'm trying to create something which is a bit smaller, but I haven't gotten it down that much. Anyone have any ideas? https://gist.github.com/1326024
11:32	zilti	gfredericks: a nested function call with an additional arg
11:33	zilti	So I can do (do-something x) instead of (wrap (partial do-something x) y)
11:34	duck1123	most of the time, unless you have special requirements about evaluating the params, you don't need a macro
11:34	gfredericks	yeah. I'd say you probably want some kind of HOF at the most
11:35	zilti	HOF?
11:35	clojurebot	HOF is Higher-Order Function
11:35	duck1123	wanting to pass a body to be wrapped in other code, is a valid use for macros, however
11:35	gfredericks	zilti: like is the issue that you want something like partial that adds arguments to the end instead of the beginning?
11:35	cgray	would it break anything if (println foo) returned (identity foo)? because i just got bitten by that while trying to debug...
11:36	gfredericks	cgray: at this point I think that'd be a pretty major change
11:36	gfredericks	cgray: also it'd make the repl very repetitive
11:37	zilti	gfredericks: It's not about just adding that argument.
11:37	duck1123	cgray: it's usually easy enough to create a macro that evals, prints, and then returns the value
11:37	cgray	gfredericks: yeah, i guess it would... what i was trying to do was (->> foo (println) (bar)) and assuming that foo would get passed to bar
11:37	cgray	duck1123: ok, good plan
11:37	gfredericks	duck1123: cgray: that sounds like a function, not a macro: #(do (println %) %)
11:38	duck1123	cgray: for instance, this is the one I use https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/debug.clj#L5
11:38	duck1123	gfredericks: fair enough. In my case, I needed a macro because I needed access to the code
11:38	cgray	duck1123: cool, thanks
11:39	gfredericks	duck1123: ah ha
11:40	gfredericks	duck1123: although in the middle of -> that might be a little weird
11:40	duck1123	it shows up oddly, but it's good enough to know what I was doing
11:41	gfredericks	zilti: well I can't give a more specific example without knowing more details
11:46	zilti	I just don't understand why it gives me a "Can't use qualified name as parameter" error
11:47	duck1123	because clojure won't let you put a normal name. You need to gensym that name, or pass it in
11:47	gfredericks	,(fn [sandbox/foo] 12)
11:47	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Can't use qualified name as parameter: sandbox/foo, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
11:48	duck1123	zilti: so are you passing forms that are to be used as the body?
11:48	gfredericks	,[`(fn [foo] 12) `(fn [foo#] 12)]
11:48	clojurebot	[(clojure.core/fn [sandbox/foo] 12) (clojure.core/fn [foo__53__auto__] 12)]
11:48	gfredericks	the former breaks, the latter works
11:50	gfredericks	also there's ##`(fn [~'foo] 12)
11:50	lazybot	⇒ (clojure.core/fn [foo] 12)
11:52	gfredericks	the worst thing about macros is that people are tempted to use them
11:55	zilti	duck1123: yes
11:56	duck1123	zilti: here's a case where I used a macro to create a fn. help? https://github.com/duck1123/ciste/blob/master/src/ciste/core.clj#L28
11:57	zilti	I have them all suffixed with # that doesn't help
12:03	duck1123	zilti: if possible, could you post what you have and how you call it, and what you're looking for?
12:06	zilti	duck1123: https://gist.github.com/1326068
12:07	duck1123	zilti: a macro that creates a macro?
12:07	zilti	duck1123: Yes
12:07	gfredericks	o_o
12:08	TimMc	Now you have 3 problems.
12:08	gfredericks	lol
12:08	duck1123	and I thought I wrote crazy macros
12:09	TimMc	duck1123: Now write a macro that makes you answer a riddle before it will allow your code to compile!
12:09	duck1123	how does nesting syntax quotes work. do you have to double escape them?
12:09	TimMc	,``a
12:10	clojurebot	(quote sandbox/a)
12:10	gfredericks	macros are _usually_ not the answer, but I think it's fair to say that macros that create macros are _never_ the answer.
12:10	TimMc	,(pr-str ``a)
12:10	clojurebot	"(quote sandbox/a)"
12:10	TimMc	gr
12:10	zilti	hmm
12:10	zilti	No you don't have to double escape syntax quotes
12:11	duck1123	ok, first off. The top level of args do not need the #
12:12	zilti	I did that to ensure that they aren't the reason
12:12	gfredericks	zilti: # is only for when you introduce a new symbol inside a ` form. Usually for let bindings or function arguments. The args to the top level macro are not inside ` so don't apply
12:17	duck1123	zilti: if you take the body and wrap it in a fn, then you could call that fn inside this named part and just make it a macro that creates fns
12:18	TimMc	Hey, I just had a thought -- when people ask how to (apply) a macro, what they're actually asking for is eval!
12:19	mefesto	also i think there is an issue with the (do ~@forms) which looks like you're expecting all the results to be saved in 'records but do will only return the last value
12:20	duck1123	mefesto: that's my code... that works
12:20	mefesto	oic
12:21	duck1123	or at least it well once I fix the error I just introduced trying to get rid of naked uses
12:24	gfredericks	TimMc: okay, so let's say I want to do (apply and my-vals). You're saying what I'm trying to do is (eval (cons 'and my-vals))?
12:25	gfredericks	I think that makes sense. If you want to decide the arguments to the macro at runtime, eval would be essentially the way to do it.
12:27	zilti	Phew. So now I have a macro that yields a function which calls a function. Works now.
12:35	mefesto	zilti: did ring-1.0.0-RC1 fix that issue you were having with noir yesterday?
12:36	mefesto	i get that error anytime i enter a url to a directory of the public resources
12:36	zilti	mefesto: Yes and no... It did fix the problem I had yesterday, but now I have this: http://www.lyrion.ch/beta
12:37	mefesto	zilti: ugh, i ran into that at work on fri ... doesn't happen when you test locally?
12:38	zilti	mefesto: Works fine locally (lein ring server)
12:38	mefesto	i was using apache to reverse proxy to ring ... which gave me that error
12:38	mefesto	i tried with nginx and it worked
12:38	mefesto	maybe a default content/mime type setting in apache?
12:39	zilti	mefesto: mime type would be one thing. The other is that it's just displaying the "not found" page which shouldn't be there. Btw I can't switch the server software - It's a shared server with a private Tomcat
12:40	mefesto	zilti: for the root mapping i had to add a (defpage "/" [] (render "/home")) or something like that
12:40	mefesto	or /beta => /beta/home
12:41	zilti	render /home ?
12:41	mefesto	yeah, where /home is the welcome page
12:41	zilti	mefesto: All it is currently is the default noir example, except that I've set a defpage "/" []. It doesn't change anything if it's in beta/ or not.
12:42	zilti	See http://www.lyrion.ch same thing
12:42	zilti	Ok, off eating
12:52	zilti	back. mefesto, do you have any idea what might break the routing stuff?
13:12	mefesto	zilti: ping
13:12	zilti	am here
13:12	mefesto	i just reproduced the issue and found something for apache that fixes it
13:13	mefesto	one sec, i'll post the config
13:13	mefesto	although like you were saying about your host, you might not be able to change the apache config (htaccess sometimes lets you)
13:15	mefesto	zilti: https://gist.github.com/0efa42d54857f269ffde
13:16	mefesto	i didn't set it up as the root app but should be similar
13:16	zilti	Ok, thanks!
13:16	mefesto	zilti: http://mefesto.dyndns.org:8080/myapp
13:16	zilti	But why do you have 8080?
13:17	mefesto	zilti: by default noir (jetty) runs on port 8080
13:17	zilti	mefesto: But I replaced the default noir server call in the server.clj with the gen-handler call from noir to create handlers for ring
13:18	mefesto	zilti: replace the 8080 with whatever port your instance is running on
13:19	zilti	mefesto: I only have "(def handler (server/gen-handler {:ns 'lyrionch}))" so I guess it's 80?
13:19	mefesto	zilti: when you launch the server from the command line doesn't it print out the port number?
13:20	mefesto	zilti: or if you're on linux you can figure it out using netstat or something
13:21	mefesto	zilti: netstat -tanp \| grep java
13:21	zilti	mefesto: On the command line I use lein ring server 8080 because by default lein ring scans from 3000 upwards for a free port. I guess it's different when deployed by war
13:21	duck1123	when using a war, it's whatever the container is using. usually 8080
13:23	zilti	duck1123: I had some stuff running on that server using Scalatra, didn't need to set anything for that. Also uses jetty locally and also deployed by war.
13:25	duck1123	so these are all showing up accessible on port 80?
13:25	zilti	duck1123: Yes
13:26	duck1123	ok, and you have apache or something proxying that call right?
13:27	zilti	Well I guess so, yes. It isn't my apache.
13:27	duck1123	that's probably what's happening
13:28	mefesto	zilti: i think this is because the 404 page generated by noir isn't setting a content-type header and apache defaults to text/plain. as an alternative to the apache conf stuff you can add middleware that will add :content-type "text/html" to the response map if it's empty
13:28	zilti	I've now included mefestos gist in my htaccess. I wonder how I activate it
13:29	mefesto	zilti: ring might already have something for this so check there first
13:29	mefesto	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-core/src/ring/middleware/content_type.clj
13:29	duck1123	I had something similar happen is it asking you to download the file?
13:30	zilti	Basically "my" apache determines the content type based on file extensions
13:30	duck1123	I had an issue with netty and apache where netty would send back a not modified and apache would mess it up
13:32	zilti	Is the .htaccess used immediately? Or is it cached?
13:33	mefesto	meh that built-in ring middleware defaults to application/octet-stream
13:36	zilti	If it's not cached then I'm not allowed to do anything like that in the htaccess. I even put some random stuff in it to see if it's parsed, and nothing happened.
13:37	duck1123	you can't put location info like that in htaccess I believe
13:39	zilti	"Game Over"
13:40	mefesto	zilti: example w/out modifying apache conf: https://gist.github.com/1326168
13:41	mefesto	zilti: updated my setup and removed the DefaultType from apache
13:42	R4p70r	What is the Clojure equivalent of Haskell unzip? Which from what I understand is an f such that (f [[1 2] [3 4] [5 6]]) => [[1 3 5] [2 4 6]]
13:43	zilti	mefesto: But that doesn't solve the routing problem...
13:44	mefesto	zilti: i thought you already had the routing working from apache -> yourapp and it was just the 404 page coming back as plain text?
13:44	zilti	mefesto: No, there's only the 404 page, nothing else, no matter what route
13:44	duck1123	does noir have any way of intercepting the requests?
13:44	Raynes	duck1123: You can use pre-route
13:45	duck1123	you could probably add some middleware in there to inspect it
13:45	mefesto	https://gist.github.com/1326168
13:45	mefesto	line 10
13:45	duck1123	could it be that your requests are coming in with the context appended?
13:47	mefesto	zilti: you're running this in tomcat right?
13:47	zilti	yes, Tomcat 6
13:49	mefesto	zilti: how is apache talking to tomcat, mod_jk, proxy, other?
13:51	tufflax	R4p70r I don't think something that does that exists. But I wrote this, maybe it will help. But then you'd have to flatten first. http://pastebin.com/GSjej6hG
13:52	R4p70r	tufflax, Thanks I'll take a look
13:58	mefesto	i still get the FileNotFoundException from ring (1.0.0-RC1) when a directory is accessed
14:00	mefesto	ok n/m ... lein clean :)
14:01	zilti	Hm now I get HTTP Status 404 - Servlet lyrionch.server/handler servlet is not available
14:09	zilti	mefesto: I've added your middleware, now my server.clj looks like this: https://gist.github.com/1326198 I still have the same source-code-404-page when having the port set to 8080, and when I set it to 80 I get "HTTP Status 404 - Servlet lyrionch.server/handler servlet is not available"
14:11	mefesto	this is middleware that is setup in the main but you don't use the main ... you deploy as a war to tomcat, right?
14:11	zilti	yes
14:12	mefesto	yeah this middleware is only added if you do `lein run`
14:12	mefesto	i dunno how to do it for a war setup
14:15	zilti	mefesto: I just had to add (server/add-middleware wrap-content-type "text/html") in front of the (def handler (server/gen-handler {:ns 'lyrionch})) statement
14:15	zilti	Now I have at least a good-looking 404 page
14:16	mefesto	zilti: progress :)
14:17	zilti	mefesto: :) Well now I'll try to log the routes... What's the recommended method for logging in clojure?
14:17	Raynes	cake latest-version clojail
14:18	Raynes	Damn, wrong window.
14:18	mefesto	zilti: if it's just for temp why not just println?
14:18	mefesto	zilti: otherwise, clojure.tools.logging
14:18	Raynes	And don't ask why I don't know what the latest version of my own library is.
14:18	zilti	mefesto: Because I won't be able to see that on my server ;)
14:18	zilti	Raynes: lol
14:20	mefesto	hmm some sneaky guy tried using my server as a forward proxy :)
14:23	zilti	mefesto: Where's the current route stored?
14:24	mefesto	zilti: (:uri request)
14:28	Raynes	&(require 'clojure.string)
14:28	lazybot	⇒ nil
14:28	Raynes	&(clojure.string/join [\a \b \c])
14:28	lazybot	⇒ "abc"
14:28	Raynes	amalloy_: ^ Unbroke that for you, wherever you are. <3
14:30	zilti	mefesto: Argh... I can't get hold of the request variable anywhere outside the middleware...
14:31	mefesto	zilti: can you post your middleware?
14:31	zilti	mefesto: It's your middleware, unchanged
14:31	mefesto	the content type one?
14:32	zilti	Yes... Now I think it's best to create a second one for adding the route to the output?
14:32	mefesto	https://gist.github.com/1326237
14:32	mefesto	ring probably has stuff for this tho
14:33	zilti	log?
14:33	clojurebot	see logs
14:33	zilti	But I don't have any logging set up.
14:33	mefesto	replace that with your log function :)
14:34	zilti	Isn't there a way to add this to the ouput?
14:35	mefesto	zilti: output being the response body?
14:35	zilti	yes
14:36	mefesto	zilti: aren't you able to check the tomcat logs? if so then println should be good enough for this debugging
14:36	zilti	It's stored in there? Yes, I can access them.
14:36	mefesto	zilti: otherwise, assuming the response body is a string then the typical clojure concat stuff should do
14:37	mefesto	zilti: yeah, last i recall tomcat dumps stdout into the logs
14:37	zilti	mefesto: I don't know how to access the response body in the middleware
14:37	mefesto	zilti: (let [res (handler req)] ...)
14:38	mefesto	zilti: res is the response map ... return the modified version from that let
14:38	zilti	mefesto: Yes, but what key does the content have? :body ?
14:38	mefesto	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/SPEC
14:38	mefesto	yup :body
14:39	zilti	Oh, nice! Thanks!
14:41	zilti	(inc mefesto)
14:41	lazybot	⇒ 1
14:46	mefesto	does lazybot keep score?
14:47	mefesto	(dec mefesto)
14:47	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
14:47	mefesto	hah nice
14:48	zilti	ARGH How long can it take to restart a Tomcat!
14:49	zilti	Oh no... I accidentally queued 3 stops and 3 starts...
14:50	mefesto	zilti: yea i think im done using tomcat/jboss these days
14:50	zilti	Using jetty instead?
14:50	mefesto	zilti: i'm new to noir but so far it's got everything i need
14:51	mefesto	zilti: i'm thinking just using lein run is good enough
14:51	mefesto	zilti: ex. lein run prod
14:52	mefesto	zilti: i have a few (simple) apps to be made at work and i'm going to try this out for them
14:52	zilti	mefesto: The only problem with Tomcat I have is that when deploying using war files you can't deploy to the root context
14:53	mefesto	zilti: you should be able to
14:53	zilti	mefesto: It seems to only be possible by manually copying the contents of the war into the root context
14:53	mefesto	http://benhutchison.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/how-to-configure-tomcat-root-context/
14:54	mefesto	so something like `lein uberwar ROOT.war` ?
14:54	gfredericks	cp my.war tomcat/webapps/ROOT.war
14:58	zilti	Hm right now it doesn't println to the log file
14:58	mefesto	zilti: is there a catalina.out file?
14:59	zilti	mefesto: It doesn't println to the log file? Which folder is that cataline.out file supposed to be?
14:59	mefesto	http://tomcat.apache.org/tomcat-6.0-doc/logging.html
15:00	mefesto	zilti: not sure. i thought it was the tomcat root dir
15:01	mefesto	The "Console" section says that System.err/out go to that file
15:04	mefesto	zilti: find it?
15:04	zilti	mefesto: Unfortunately: no
15:05	mefesto	zilti: on linux?
15:06	mefesto	zilti: if so try `find /dir/to/tomcat -name catalina.out`
15:07	zilti	mefesto: Yes, on linux. But I'll first try (java/util/logging/Logger/global/info
15:08	Raynes	This is why I don't do web development.
15:08	mefesto	zilti: clojure.tools.logging should work for you then. i believe it'll use whatever underlying logging framework is available at runtime (commons logging, java.util.logging, log4j, etc)
15:08	Raynes	Or, why I'm happy that I don't have to do much web development.
15:08	mefesto	This is why i can't stand java web containers
15:08	daaku	i'm trying my hand at some complex clojure (for me) and java (which i don't really know) by writing a gen-class that extends java.util.logging.Handler and i'm getting a "No matching ctor found for class" error that i can't seem to figure out and would love some help with: https://gist.github.com/bab3a0a8160f9abb1714
15:10	daaku	i tried to decompile the generated class, and oddly i do see a constructor with the signature i'm using (what the rest of the code was doing is beyond me)
15:11	gfredericks	daaku: what're you doing when you get the error?
15:11	daaku	gfredericks: trying to instantiate my handler class: (ring-loggly.core.handler. "foo" 200)
15:11	daaku	gfredericks: this happens at (compile 'my.ns) btw
15:12	gfredericks	hm
15:13	daaku	lol, i'm not there yet. i figured if i can get this to work, i'll know more about java interop as well as clojure concurrency
15:14	zilti	Ok bye for today. Progess: I'm getting an exception now...
15:14	gfredericks	daaku: if it were me, I would try things like putting the reference to the class after the gen-class, or in another namespace so you can properly import it. But really I don't know what's going on.
15:15	daaku	gfredericks: seems unlikely it's an order thing since it does seem to find the class, just not the constructor (at one point the class wasn't being found either)
15:16	gfredericks	daaku: agreed. That's why I gave up before mentioning it.
15:28	simard	is there a lib for git/clojure interop ?
15:29	maio	what's wrong with (iterate repeat :foo) ?
15:32	TimMc	maio: What are you trying to accomplish?
15:33	maio	(= (repeat 100 :foo) (take 100 (iterate ___ :foo))))
15:33	maio	what would you put instead of ___?
15:33	TimMc	,(doc iterate)
15:34	clojurebot	"([f x]); Returns a lazy sequence of x, (f x), (f (f x)) etc. f must be free of side-effects"
15:34	TimMc	maio: identity would work, but just use the (repeat) function.
15:37	maio	ok thanks. I'm doing clojure koans btw - https://github.com/functional-koans/clojure-koans/blob/master/src/koans/lazy_sequences.clj#L24
15:38	TimMc	maio: Oh, in that case I shouldn't have told you the answer.
15:38	TimMc	Do you understand why it works?
15:40	maio	well I understand one that is few lines above (= __ (take 20 (iterate inc 0)))
15:40	maio	that would call inc 0, than inc of that inc before and so on
15:41	maio	but I'm not sure I get that example I needed help with
15:42	maio	I would just put (repeat :foo) there
15:43	Raynes	&(take 5 (iterate identity :foo))
15:43	lazybot	⇒ (:foo :foo :foo :foo :foo)
15:44	maio	&(take 5 (repeat :foo))
15:44	lazybot	⇒ (:foo :foo :foo :foo :foo)
15:44	maio	&(repeat 5 :foo)
15:44	lazybot	⇒ (:foo :foo :foo :foo :foo)
15:44	Raynes	Yes, that'd make more sense. But I don't think koans are meant to make sense. ;)
15:45	brehaut	if a lazy seq falls in the forest, is it fully realized?
15:45	Raynes	brehaut: Depends -- does it land on a gopher?
15:45	brehaut	Raynes: nobody uses gopher these days, so i think we can assume no
16:04	maio	,(doc complement)
16:04	clojurebot	"([f]); Takes a fn f and returns a fn that takes the same arguments as f, has the same effects, if any, and returns the opposite truth value."
16:16	TimMc	,(take 5 (iterate complement :hi))
16:16	clojurebot	(:hi #<core$complement$fn__3653 clojure.core$complement$fn__3653@5b0f2e> #<core$complement$fn__3653 clojure.core$complement$fn__3653@419d65> #<core$complement$fn__3653 clojure.core$complement$fn__3653@1c477f9> #<core$complement$fn__3653 clojure.core$complement$fn__3653@1a089a6>)
16:17	gfredericks	what a fantastic collection of functions!
16:17	TimMc	oof
16:17	TimMc	,(take 5 (iterate not :hi))
16:17	clojurebot	(:hi false true false true)
16:17	TimMc	I always do that.
17:03	daaku	i've successfully written some code that pipes java logging to loggly.com in a single background thread that batches them in a number of async http requests. it's using gen-class and atoms, and is pretty small (45 lines) and would love some feedback if anyone's got some time: https://github.com/nshah/ring-loggly.clj/blob/master/src/ring_loggly/core.clj (the ring middleware aspect is still wip)
17:05	daaku	one thing i discovered is that i might be able to use proxy instead of gen-class, but haven't figured it out yet
17:08	zakwilson	I know there have been a bunch of different things written to allow Clojure to connect to IRC and do various things. I want to join a channel and receive all the channel's messages, triggering a callback when a message is received. Which is likely to be the simplest to work with?
17:18	Raynes	zakwilson: I maintain an IRC library.
17:18	Raynes	zakwilson: https://github.com/Raynes/irclj
17:19	Raynes	I use this library in lazybot. It hasn't had much attention by me lately, and I plan to rewrite parts of it in the future, but in the meantime it works pretty well and is dead simple.
17:19	Raynes	The example bot should be helpful.
17:20	zakwilson	Raynes: looks like exactly what I need. Thanks.
17:21	Raynes	https://github.com/raek/lcug-examples/tree/master/bot is another example bot.
17:26	terom	Raynes: the link on irclj page (http://www.github.com/Raynes/sexpbot) gives 404
17:27	Raynes	terom: Yeah, it's http://github.com/flatland/lazybot
17:27	Raynes	I'll update that shortly.
17:28	jodaro	irclj: i see what you did there
17:28	Raynes	jodaro: Indeed.
17:28	Raynes	jodaro: See why you should stop using crappy names?
17:30	jodaro	totally
17:30	jodaro	i'm missing an important part of the creative process
17:32	Raynes	Just ask me and I'll give you golden names.
17:33	Raynes	jodaro: For example, clj-wordnik = wordnak, clj-klout = repute.
17:34	zakwilson	I just found that the google search 'where did contrib go' gives the right answer.
17:41	Raynes	technomancy_: Yeah, I don't understand people who name things clj-*
17:41	Raynes	Use your mind, friends. There are all sorts of lovely names you can squat.
17:41	llasram	CL people who are used to projects named cl-* ?
17:41	Raynes	That's the whole problem with CL. Crappy names.
17:42	llasram	nice
17:42	Raynes	Even the name of the language -- Common Lisp. I mean, 'common' is in the name!
17:42	llasram	You could even extend that to a statement about namespaces...
17:42	Raynes	What if Clojure was called Typical JVM Lisp.
17:42	technomancy_	I've said it before, Common Lisp function names are optimized for Wheel of Fortune.
17:43	technomancy_	how else do you explain rplacd?
17:43	llasram	lol, I was just trying to make sure I was going to spell "rplaca" right
17:44	llasram	Although I've been reading /Let over Lambda/, and even Hoyte admits it's probably one of the worst-named functions ever
17:45	technomancy_	calling filter "remove-if-not" has got to be on that list though
17:45	technomancy_	dont-keep-unless-predicate-isnt-false
17:47	llasram	Eh. I'm not going to defend CL (never really used it), but any langage of any age will have a few naming warts. I mean, Clojure is all of what, 3 years old? And find vs get, for just one example
17:50	technomancy_	yeah, or some or contains
17:50	technomancy_	though the former is really CL's fault too
17:51	llasram	There is only possible solution: go back in time, and replace CL with Scheme when no-one is looking
17:53	manutter	woot, just got my blog added to Planet Clojure
17:54	manutter	I haven't been Clojure blogging much, anyone got any good tips, syntax colorizers for Clojure, etc?
17:54	manutter	I'm also trying to branch out into screencasts too
17:55	scottj	manutter: have you seen http://youtube.com/emailataskcom screencasts?
17:55	manutter	no, but I will, thanks :)
17:56	Raynes	manutter: What blogging engine do you use?
17:56	manutter	blogger right now
17:56	Raynes	Yikes.
17:56	Raynes	No clue in that case.
17:56	manutter	I do some other blogs on WordPress
17:57	Raynes	I'm into octopress.
17:57	manutter	wow, haven't heard of that one
17:57	Raynes	Wordpress's SyntaxHighlighter plugin can highlight Clojure.
17:57	scottj	http://jaderholm.com/blog/blog/2011/09/26/blogging-with-org-mode-and-octopress/
17:57	Raynes	Octopress is a developer-oriented blogging engine.
17:58	scottj	with org+octo you can get the exact same clojure highlighting (and any other language) as you get in eamcs
17:58	manutter	awesome, that's exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to find.
17:58	Raynes	I do note taking and… everything else in Springpad.
17:59	jcromartie	does anybody know how to use clj-http with cookies?
17:59	jcromartie	wrap-cookies in particular
18:00	jcromartie	I'm reading the source in the mean time https://github.com/dakrone/clj-http/blob/master/src/clj_http/cookies.clj
18:00	Bronsa	http://kimochi.ath.cx/up/9e0a18c69940ae9e20a84cc7846c961b.avi
18:01	jcromartie	Bronsa: what's that?
18:02	Bronsa	some paredit-like thing i'm working on
18:02	jcromartie	oh cool
18:02	jcromartie	:) paredit is the way to go
18:02	technomancy_	M-x htmlize-buffer is great for blogging
18:03	llasram	Oh man, htmlize-buffer is totally my blog's syntax-highlighting engine
18:03	manutter	Oo, that sounds like a good one too, thanks.
18:03	jcromartie	I feel like paredit is much closer to "modifying the code" than simple text editing, which is more like "modifying the text that makes up the code"
18:04	technomancy_	llasram: supposedly htmlfontify replaces it in 23 or 24, but it still has a couple bugs with giving the default face a different style.
18:05	Raynes	technomancy_: I was using that for my talk, but then I realized I could gist my code and then copy it over to keynote and maintain highlighting. Github's highlighting is easier to see in my talk, since I use solarized dark in Emacs which is pretty low-contrast.
18:05	technomancy_	there's a github theme for Emacs =)
18:05	technomancy_	but yeah, I basically only use htmlize with the stock theme
18:05	Raynes	Besides, I'm of the opinion that gist solves all problems.
18:06	llasram	technomancy_: Hmm. Thanks for the heads-up. Works fine in 23, but something to check when I make the switch to 24
18:06	scottj	you can have different themes per frame
18:06	Raynes	I know, but htmlize gives me an extra step of having to open the html in my browser to copy it over. With gist, I just gist the code. Not that there is a huge difference.
18:07	technomancy_	yeah, if you're using a non-textual format for your slides... but then you have the proverbial two problems.
18:08	llasram	Raynes: Or you can do what I did. I wrote my own blog engine, and the only way to post to it is from code written in emacs-lisp, which uses htmlize-buffer to syntax-highlight code examples before posting. Totally a sane solution
18:08	Raynes	Yeah, man.
18:08	technomancy_	llasram: 93-line rakefile, man. can't go wrong.
18:09	scottj	(defun raynes () (interactive) (htmlize-buffer) (browse-url-of-buffer) (run-shell-command "conkeror -e 'cmd_selectAll(); cmd_copy();"))
18:10	technomancy_	scottj: nice; didn't know about browse-url-of-buffer
18:10	llasram	technomancy_: Nice. Yeah, I need to switch to something else. Either something super-simple like that, or something off-the-shelf. I haven't touched my current blog code in years, and wouldn't know where to start even e.g. brushing up my stylesheets w/o spelunking
18:10	Raynes	Keynote is pretty nice. I needed nice and simple button buttons to press. It's my first ever talk. I'm scared of everything.
18:10	Raynes	Minus the extra 'buttons' there.
18:10	technomancy_	Raynes: all the more reason to use version control
18:11	rafl	is there a standard or community standard for writing clojure documentation?
18:11	Raynes	I do use version control, though it doesn't do much good with binary files. ;)
18:11	Raynes	rafl: Marginalia is a good option.
18:11	Raynes	Autodoc is another.
18:12	Raynes	But there aren't really any 'standards'.
18:13	scottj	;; is a pretty good standard
18:13	Raynes	scottj: o/
18:13	rafl	as in, even attempting to come up with a way to "give me the docs for $function" is basically futile?
18:14	llasram	docstrings?
18:15	rafl	that seems kinda useless if people tend to use other tools for providing their docs anyway, which is the impression Marginalia gave me
18:15	rafl	unless of course i didn't actually get what it does.
18:16	scottj	I think marginalia is for above and beyond docstrings
18:16	scottj	or a pretty way to display docstrings and more
18:16	rafl	so, if someone were to use marginalia for his docs, would that mean he normally wouldn't even bother to provide docstrings?
18:17	scottj	you'd still provide docstrings
18:17	scottj	you know about repl ways to read docstrings right?
18:18	wtetzner	if you're using slime, you can use M-. to jump to a function definition, which lets you easily see the docstring
18:18	llasram	Er, or C-c C-d C-d to just show the docstring for it
18:18	rafl	stepping back a bit - one of the annoyances i'm having is it being too hard and distracting to go to the docs for a given function or a synopsis of a full module or whatever. they all tend to be in very different places
18:19	rafl	and not necessarily for modules i have already installed, but for ones i'm trying to figure out whether or not to use them
18:20	rafl	it just seems slightly odd to have to go to different web pages all the time or having to figure out where the source lives for every one of them
18:20	rafl	i figured that, if there was some similarity in how all the modules would provide their docs, it'd be easy enough for me to write something that'd just give me docs for a module on clojars, given its name
18:21	rafl	but that doesn't seem very practical, apparently
18:21	scottj	llasram: same thing in tooltip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dio__Qylp-s#t=1m11s
18:22	llasram	scottj: Yah, I got ac-slime working just a few weekends ago. Thanks for the tip, though :-)
18:22	llasram	Any golfers in the house? I mentioned earlier, but I'm trying to make the Clojure solution for this alioth benchmark not the longest (code-wise) for any language http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/performance.php?test=nbody&sort=gz
18:23	llasram	Here's what I have so far: https://gist.github.com/1326024
18:23	llasram	Which is now slightly shorter than the Haskell version, but longer than the Java version (by their metric)
18:23	scottj	rafl: have you looked at autodoc? maybe you could run that on the various projects.
18:24	Raynes	ibdknox: HAI
18:24	scottj	rafl: also if you're using emacs/vim you can use tag files to navigate to the symbol's source w/o having it running in your system
18:24	ibdknox	Raynes: OMG
18:24	ibdknox	Raynes: HAI
18:25	rafl	scottj: i will in a minute. right now i'm being distracted by the shiny that is ac-slime :)
18:25	Raynes	ibdknox: I require a new version of noir without cssgen's contrib dependency. No, I demand it.
18:25	ibdknox	I think that's fair
18:25	ibdknox	I'm annoyed with cssgen anyways
18:26	ibdknox	Raynes: give me a minute
18:26	Raynes	It's just, it puts contrib on tryclojure's classpath, yet tryclojure runs 1.3.
18:26	scottj	have you used gaka?
18:26	Raynes	It's all very confusing and scary.
18:26	Raynes	ibdknox: Also, I got tryclojure running on heroku last night. :>
18:26	ibdknox	wow
18:27	ibdknox	Raynes: I'm impressed. I never looked at clojail that in depth but I would've thought it required some stuff that wouldn't work on heroku
18:27	Raynes	ibdknox: Took me like 10 minutes.
18:27	Raynes	Yeah, me too!
18:27	ibdknox	that's... awesome
18:27	Raynes	All I had to do was specify the policy file on the command-line.
18:27	ibdknox	very cool
18:27	Raynes	Heroku apparently doesn't care, since it isn't like unsandboxed code can damage anything anyways.
18:28	llasram	I haven't used Heroku (yet), but I saw one of their guys' talks at Strange Loop. AFAI could tell from what he said, you basically just get a chroot in an EC2 box to do whatever you want it?
18:30	ibdknox	eh
18:30	ibdknox	you have no local storage
18:31	ibdknox	basically you can't interact with the filesystem last I knew
18:31	ibdknox	maybe that changed recently though
18:31	technomancy_	ibdknox: well... that was on the old stack
18:31	technomancy_	back when it was all-ruby
18:32	ibdknox	technomancy_: huh.. I tried a while back and had bad things happen when I tried to read a file
18:32	ibdknox	technomancy_: and that was with Clojure
18:32	technomancy_	hmm... definitely let me know if you run into that again
18:32	technomancy_	you can write to the filesystem, but you should only use it as a scratch-pad rather than for permanent storage.
18:32	ibdknox	right
18:32	technomancy_	(which is actually true of everything on EC2, not just heroku)
18:32	ibdknox	yep
18:33	ibdknox	technomancy_: you saw that Raynes got try-clojure onto heroku in 10 minutes, yeah?
18:33	ibdknox	(inc technomancy)
18:33	lazybot	⇒ 17
18:33	technomancy_	yeah, that's sweet
18:40	algal	speaking of clojure in the cloud, is there anything standard / good / obvious for persisting clojure data structures to the Google App Engine datastore?
18:41	daaku	is there a null-safe built in macro?
18:42	ibdknox	daaku: huh?
18:42	ibdknox	algal: just pr-str them?
18:43	daaku	ibdknox: something to deal with calling a java method on the result of null value from another java method where object or null is returned
18:44	algal	ibdknox: yeah, read/print serialisation to a string seems like the drop dead simplest way. Was wondering if there's anything non-obvious I should know about. New to clojure.
18:46	ibdknox	algal: I mean you could try to do something clever, splicing maps out into columns and such, but it's probably not worth it, unless you're doing crazy indexing
18:46	ibdknox	algal: it's hard to tell without knowing your use case though.
18:46	ibdknox	daaku: ##(doc if-let) is the only thing I can think of
18:46	lazybot	⇒ "Macro ([bindings then] [bindings then else & oldform]); bindings => binding-form test If test is true, evaluates then with binding-form bound to the value of test, if not, yields else"
18:47	technomancy_	daaku: there's -?> in clojure.core.incubator I think
18:47	daaku	-?> looks like it
18:47	daaku	thanks technomancy_
18:47	scottj	there's .?. also
18:48	daaku	i just came up with a crappy one: (defmacro null-safe [default & body] `(try (do ~@body) (catch java.lang.NullPointerException e# ~default)))
18:48	ibdknox	I should look at the incubator stuff aparently :)
18:48	ibdknox	Raynes: 1.2.1-SNAPSHOT no longer has cssgen
18:49	Raynes	o/
18:49	daaku	man there's a lot of cool stuff available
18:52	algal	A newb question -- I notice add-classpath is deprecated. Is there some new function that replaces it? Without it, it seems like my REPL is crippled to whatever the class path was when I started it. Or am I missing something?
18:58	technomancy_	algal: most people just restart
18:58	technomancy_	you can try https://github.com/cemerick/pomegranate though
18:59	algal	technomancy_: ok, thanks.
18:59	algal	technomancy_: and thanks also for leiningen. It's a great help -- been away from Java so long, maven etc.. is a mystery to me. nice to find something sane to get started with.
19:00	technomancy_	great! =)
19:00	algal	I even liked the short story too, so it's a double win. :)
19:17	algal	speaking of leiningen, is ~/.lein/bin/swank-clojure a sensible place to put customisations if my "default" (i.e., non-project) REPL's classpath? (e.g., if I wanted contribs to be available so I could get to trace )
19:19	technomancy	that's one way to do it. I just generate a new scratch project
19:22	algal	technomancy: okay, cool. I like to have a REPL just a command away in emacs, so I'm trying to just find the defaults..
19:23	Raynes	Bleh. Scratch projects are for wimps who don't believe in The Global Project, technomancy.
19:24	Raynes	Wimp.
19:24	algal	The Global Project is life itself, eh?
19:24	Raynes	algal: It was a vague reference to a non-argument we had about cake's global project concept a while back.
19:25	algal	Raynes: ah.
19:25	Raynes	He gave me a line that I've had a lot of fun with since then: "Must be solving problems I don't have."
19:25	algal	Raynes: That is a good one! Reminds of an old Quaker saying, which I quite like. "It does not speak to my condition."
19:26	Raynes	technomancy is the Shakespeare of programming.
19:26	algal	i can believe it
19:26	ibdknox	this was him: http://shakespearelang.sourceforge.net/report/shakespeare/
19:27	algal	yeah, saw that on HN recently
19:28	algal	Contribs is pretty stable stuff, I'm guessing? (again, newb question….)
19:28	ibdknox	noooooo
19:28	ibdknox	~contrib
19:28	clojurebot	latest contrib is 947
19:28	ibdknox	..
19:28	ibdknox	algal: don't use contrib
19:29	ibdknox	~where did contrib
19:29	clojurebot	contribute is http://clojure.org/contributing
19:29	ibdknox	ok
19:29	algal	ibdknox: oh really… ?
19:29	ibdknox	the bot is pissing me off lol
19:29	Raynes	$google where did contrib go
19:29	lazybot	[Where Did Clojure.Contrib Go - Clojure Design - Clojure Development] http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Where+Did+Clojure.Contrib+Go
19:29	Raynes	ibdknox: lrn2bo
19:29	Raynes	t
19:29	ibdknox	algal: yeah, the old monolithic contrib is phased out
19:30	ibdknox	Raynes: one of these days I will understand clojurebot and his mysterious ways.
19:30	ibdknox	that day is not today.
19:30	algal	ah.
19:30	Raynes	Meh, just understand lazybot. I'll help.
19:32	ibdknox	lazybot: is clojurebot annoying???
19:32	lazybot	ibdknox: How could that be wrong?
19:32	ibdknox	srsly.
19:33	algal	ibdknox: So, monolithic phase-out means just rejiggering of the namespace, but it's still just one jar? and half the stuff hasn't been officially upgraded and renamespaced for clojure 1.3? Am I getting it?
19:33	ibdknox	algal: not one jar
19:33	algal	ibdknox: (I mean, understanding it.)
19:33	ibdknox	algal: they're all different projects now
19:33	algal	mamma mia.
19:33	ibdknox	algal: the idea being that you shouldn't be bringing down some epic jar when you just want one function
19:34	ibdknox	algal: also, the projects move at very different speeds
19:35	algal	okay, so if it's being broken into loads of smaller jars, then that makes distribution more complicated. Is that solved by them all living in an official repo that people access via maven / leiningen / etc. ?
19:35	simard	does anyone know of a clojure library for accessing git ? I'm having a hard time finding that on google, as every lib these days is hosted on github
19:35	algal	(Sometimes tough to back out this big picture stuff just by googling reading etc.. fast moving plat and all that.)
19:35	ibdknox	algal: if it's an official contrib library it's in maven central
19:36	algal	ibdknox: ok. And some of the parts of the "old 1.2" contrib have been officially upgraded and others are waiting for maintainer input and others have been orphaned…. ?
19:36	ibdknox	simard: https://github.com/TobiasRaeder/clj-git
19:36	ibdknox	simard: also, there's jgit
19:37	ibdknox	algal: correct
19:37	algal	ibdknox: Great. Thanks.
19:37	Raynes	simard: Also, if you need to work with the Github API, check out https://github.com/Raynes/clj-github
19:38	ibdknox	Raynes: oo, didn't know about that
19:38	Raynes	jodaro: And before you call me out on having a clj-* library, it's only because I haven't come up with an interesting name yet. ;)
19:39	simard	ibdknox: Raynes: thank you both
19:39	ibdknox	Raynes: what do you use the github api for?
19:40	Raynes	I believe I wrote it because I was working on a cake plugin for working with Github.
19:40	Raynes	But other people use it now, so I still maintain it.
19:40	ibdknox	mm
19:40	Raynes	I also thought I'd want to use it in lazybot for commit reporting in channels, but I ended up using using a post-receive hook + web server.
19:41	ibdknox	yeah, I've always ended up using hooks
19:41	Raynes	P.S.: If you had an IRC channel for noir, I could get lazybot to report commits in there with compare links and everything.
19:42	ibdknox	oo
19:42	ibdknox	no one has requested a Noir channel yet
19:42	ibdknox	that's the only reason I haven't done it
19:42	ibdknox	wow
19:42	ibdknox	#noir is actually empty
19:42	Raynes	Might become necessary at some point. Noir is obviously going to be the most popular web framework.
19:43	ibdknox	obviously.
19:43	ibdknox	I'll have achieved victory once we bully amalloy_ into using it... :D
19:43	Raynes	When I get some time, I'll do the work required for 4clojure to use it.
19:44	algal	thanks for the tips, chaps.
19:44	Raynes	4Clojure's routing and stuff is relatively simple. I did some refactoring of it a while back, so it shouldn't be troublesome.
19:46	ibdknox	:)
19:46	ibdknox	ok
19:46	ibdknox	I registered noir
19:46	ibdknox	lol
19:47	Raynes	o/
19:48	simard	Raynes: do you have an example of using your lib ?
19:48	Raynes	simard: clj-github?
19:48	simard	yes
19:48	Raynes	What do you want to do?
19:48	simard	short answer: I don't know
19:48	ibdknox	lol
19:48	Raynes	Well, there is a brief example under 'Usage' in the README.
19:48	ibdknox	you just know you want to do something with github?
19:49	simard	I'd like to.. retrieve a file from a repo on github
19:49	simard	modify it, and commit it bacj
19:49	Raynes	Oh. Yeah, this wont help you with that.
19:49	simard	you mean the lib, or your readme ?
19:49	ibdknox	simard: you need jgit for that
19:49	simard	ok
19:49	Raynes	You need jgit for that.
19:49	Raynes	ibdknox: Damn you.
19:50	simard	so that wrapper around jgit, is it faily usable ?
19:50	simard	clj-git
19:50	ibdknox	it implements like two things
19:50	ibdknox	lol
19:50	Raynes	Looks like it. Deps are a bit out of date though.
19:51	Raynes	But in general, jgit shouldn't be hard to use. clj-git is probably like a big usage example.
19:51	ibdknox	more or less
19:51	ibdknox	there's really not much there
19:52	simard	ok, yeah I'll read to get an idea of how to use jgit
20:08	dnolen	why constraint logic programming rocks, http://dosync.posterous.com/a-taste-of-ckanren
20:09	ibdknox	For those playing the home game, #noir is now open :)
20:35	technomancy	simard: I wrote https://github.com/technomancy/quickbeam but it was more of an exercise in swarm coding than an actual useful library
20:35	technomancy	s/I wrote/I wrote with the help of the Boston Clojure Group/
20:35	technomancy	based on jgit
20:36	Raynes	technomancy: Boston Clojure Group? Don't you live in Seattle? You must get around.
20:37	technomancy	apparently they schedule their meetings around my travel itineraries
20:37	Raynes	I bet.
20:37	technomancy	or they did anyway; the first 3 always coincided with Sonian team get-togethers.
20:38	simard	technomancy: swarm coding ?
20:38	technomancy	simard: it's like pair programming but with 4+ people =)
20:39	simard	oh, you mean chaos :)
20:39	technomancy	as close to chaos as you can get and still end up with a functioning library published to github and clojars =)
20:39	simard	hehehe
20:40	jamiltron	I only code when I have a cheer squad accompanying me.
20:41	Raynes	I only code when I have The Ting Tings performing That's Not My Name at the other end of the room.
20:42	jamiltron	Nice
21:04	meta_	Why does clojure.walk and into destroy meta?
21:07	Raynes	Man, writing talks is hard. Why did I wait to the last minute to write this thing?
21:07	meta_	I mean, I know _why_ as the bugs in the clojure 1.3 code are obvious...
21:07	Raynes	redinger: I'd appreciate it if you'd go ahead and move the Conj to December. That isn't unreasonable, is it?
21:07	meta_	I just wonder if there was a reason why that I'm missing.
21:09	meta_	details: 'into uses transients but forgets about meta.
21:10	Raynes	"Stuart, the author, hates it because he says it’s too buggy and breaks on too many edge cases..."
21:10	Raynes	RE: clojure.walk
21:11	Raynes	That was '10. Not sure if anything has changed since then.
21:11	meta_	I've heard that back then, and I get it (I still like clojure.walk...)
21:11	Raynes	I do too. :>
21:11	Raynes	Guilty pleasure.
21:11	ibdknox	it's really slow
21:12	meta_	_into_ is the big bug IMHO
21:12	Raynes	We use it significantly in Clojail.
21:12	meta_	I'd like to build a case:
21:12	meta_	1. metadata has its uses
21:13	meta_	2. currently it cannot be used with clojure 1.3 because it's somewhat like stepping on a mine field wether or not it will survive after calling a clojure core fn.
21:13	meta_	is that too harsh?
21:15	meta_	It's just me posting the short unfiltered version because it's irc...
21:16	meta_	I heart Clojure.
21:38	technomancy	meta_: that's always been a big question mark with metadata usage; it's unclear which operations preserve it and which don't
21:39	meta_	I vote that Clojure (core fns) should never lose metadata.
21:39	meta_	Who's with me?
21:40	spoon16	is there a way to tell if a sequence is lazy?
21:41	technomancy	meta_: I think it should be decided on a case-by-case basis. into should probably propagate the metadata of its first arg though.
21:42	meta_	I'm actually fine with that _except_ for into and clojure.walk (I love those fns and rely on them heavily, but I'd also love to use metadata too...)
21:43	meta_	I guess I'm just arguing for those two things.
21:43	technomancy	maybe bring it up on the mailing list
21:44	meta_	That's a good idea. Would you mind doing that ? <grin>
21:45	technomancy	I don't have a very good track record for getting my fixes into clojure =\
21:45	meta_	heh heh...
21:45	meta_	ty for the comments.
21:47	technomancy	sure
21:59	gfredericks	does anybody know what maven repo I need to add to get clojure.algo.generic?
22:02	simard	to whoever recommended me "The Joy of Closure", thank you
22:03	Raynes	simard: That'd be pretty much everybody.
22:03	Raynes	Not many people don't like that book.
22:04	simard	thanks everybody
22:04	simard	:)
22:06	gfredericks	I've recommended JoC a number of times and have never looked inside it at all
22:44	Raynes	gfredericks: That's the Clojure hive mind.
22:44	Raynes	Once you've been here for a while it gets inside your head.
22:56	daaku	is there a better way to write this: (array-map :trace 0 :debug 1 :info 2 :warn 3 :error 4 :fatal 5) ? i feel i should be able to use [:trace :debug :info :warn :error :fatal] (iterate inc 0) instead, but can't seem to figure out what's the best way to write it
22:58	technomancy	,(map-indexed vec [:trace :debug :info :warn :error :fatal])
22:58	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$vec>
22:58	technomancy	,(map-indexed vector [:trace :debug :info :warn :error :fatal])
22:58	clojurebot	([0 :trace] [1 :debug] [2 :info] [3 :warn] [4 :error] ...)
22:58	daaku	sweet, even better. thanks technomancy
22:58	technomancy	I guess you still need an (into {} ) there
22:58	technomancy	if you only have 6 elements you might as well use a literal
23:00	daaku	hmm.. i get ArityException Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$vec clojure.lang.AFn.throwArity (AFn.java:437)
23:01	daaku	i'm using 1.3
23:05	daaku	oh
23:05	daaku	man, i'm an idiot
23:12	technomancy	man, what is it with people and wanting to avoid putting jars in repositories?
23:12	technomancy	ಠ_ಠ
23:13	technomancy	maybe if it were "get a subscription with $HOSTED_SERVICE" instead of "run your own archiva server" people wouldn't be so resistant to doing the right thing
23:14	technomancy	am I missing something, or does sonatype not offer nexus-as-a-service?
23:15	technomancy	seems like a real no-brainer; they're trying to sell an "enterprise nexus" instead which doesn't make any sense.
23:24	spoon16	I want to use buffer-size defined in duck-streams
23:24	spoon16	how do I do that from my own ns/.clj?
23:25	technomancy	spoon16: duck-streams?
23:25	technomancy	surely you mean clojure.java.io?
23:26	spoon16	clojure.contrib.duck-streams
23:26	spoon16	it defs buffer-size
23:26	spoon16	I just want to read that value in my own .clj
23:26	technomancy	yeah, but duck-streams is way deprecated
23:26	spoon16	oh
23:26	spoon16	I guess I wasn't paying good attention :)
23:27	spoon16	so, lets say I do mean clojure.java.io
23:27	spoon16	how do I read the var in my own function/ns?
23:27	technomancy	(:require [clojure.java.io :as io])
23:27	technomancy	then io/buffer-size
23:27	spoon16	ok