#clojure – 2011-10-11

2011-10-11

00:00	ibdknox	it saves the day again!
00:00	amalloy	the unsung hero
00:00	scottj	I wonder if arc has ssyntax for juxt
00:20	replaca_	Q: what's the latest version of swank for clojure-jack-in?
00:20	replaca_	*swank-clojure
00:20	dnolen	not surprising that Dart output is so similar to ClojureScript's https://gist.github.com/1277224
00:22	scottj	oh I didn't realize dart was going to compile to js
00:23	amalloy	all the cool kids are doing it
00:24	replaca_	but it seems like chrome will have a native interpreter
00:24	replaca_	or something
00:24	replaca_	(maybe auto-compile on-load)
00:33	cemerick	dnolen: and just as large, too! :-P
00:33	dnolen	cemerick: pre advanced optimizations, sure
00:33	dnolen	I just ran that through advanced mode, down to 2000 lines pretty-printed
00:33	cemerick	Right, cljs is exporting stuff it doesn't necessarily need to, right?
00:34	justicefries	ugh. working htrough 4clojure.
00:34	justicefries	realizing I don't "get" clojure yet.
00:35	dnolen	https://gist.github.com/1277285
00:37	cemerick	eh, so same magnitude as hello-world in cljs
00:37	justicefries	i want my side effects and objects. ;)
00:38	dnolen	justicefries: you're in luck, you have both in Clojure.
00:39	justicefries	haha! i'll be a purist at least for a little while.
00:41	justicefries	i just hope by the end of joy of clojure I get FP.
00:41	justicefries	and practice.
00:44	symbole	justicefries: Some would say FP is a lifestyle choice, or an attitude. :-)
00:55	justicefries	I'm okay with that. :)
00:55	justicefries	I'd like to wrap my mind around it...
00:57	pdk	if you want to get fp you probably won't just by learning one functional language, learn a handful
00:57	pdk	hell toss prolog in there since it's technically still pretty functional
00:57	justicefries	i'm switching over from Smalltalk, Ruby, and Objective-C.
00:58	justicefries	about as opposite as one would like to be.
00:59	pdk	ruby should have stuff like lambdas/closures
00:59	justicefries	yup
01:19	amalloy	heh. java should too
01:23	mvid	is there a built in function that takes a number of arguments and returns the first one that isn't nil?
01:25	amalloy	&(some identity [nil nli 4 8])
01:25	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: nli in this context
01:25	amalloy	&(some identity [nil nil 4 8])
01:25	lazybot	⇒ 4
01:25	mvid	cool
01:25	mvid	thanks
01:26	justicefries	pdk: I totally get lambdas/closures in Ruby.
01:27	pdk	(doc identity)
01:27	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns its argument."
01:27	pdk	,(doc identity)
01:27	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns its argument."
01:28	justicefries	&(identity [4 8])
01:28	lazybot	⇒ [4 8]
01:32	mvid	(or nil nil 4 8)
01:32	mvid	&(or nil nil 4 8)
01:32	lazybot	⇒ 4
01:42	tarcieri	anyone attempted to apply STM to the DOM in ClojureScript?
01:42	tarcieri	like facilitating a protocol to let multiple web workers manipulate the DOM concurrently with STM semantics?
01:43	amalloy	tarcieri: seems pretty unlikely. javascript ain't got threads, right?
01:43	tarcieri	it has web workers, which unfortunately are more like IPC than threads
01:44	tarcieri	it's the Unix model, in the browser, with text as the universal interchange format
01:44	tarcieri	:(
02:03	TheMantis	hey guys, what's a good java IRC? the one here on freenode is invite only...
02:03	TheMantis	#java is invite only, that is
02:04	amalloy	##java
02:11	amalloy	tarcieri: i didn't really know about web workers. but it looks pretty trivial to turn a web worker into an agent
02:15	mrbendy	Heya everyone. I would like to take a string like "Foo Bar Baz" and make it "foo_bar_baz"
02:15	tarcieri	amalloy: yeah web workers would map to agents nicely, aside from the fact you have to round trip all state you send them through strings
02:15	mrbendy	I want to replace all non-ascii characters with _'s
02:26	tarcieri	mrbendy: (.toLowerCase str) and use a regex to replace the non-ascii characters?
02:26	mrbendy	tarcieri: that's what I'm doing
02:27	mrbendy	I'm trying to find a good way to replace non-ascii characters
02:29	dnolen	tarcieri: I don't know about the string bit moving forward, I've heard that implementation will probably leverage freeze
02:30	matt00	any good reason why clojure (str 'foo) -> "foo" whereas cljs (str 'foo) -> foo ?
02:31	dnolen	sometimes I think about how awesome ClojureScript is then I read threads like this http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3097105, JS.fail
02:34	dnolen	matt00: seems like a bug, you should file a ticket
02:40	mrbendy	dnolen: anyone in particular
02:43	devn	sigh...
02:43	devn	dnolen: the guy referencing the "stupidity" of reddit happens to have one of the dumber comments in the thread
02:44	matt00	dnolen - issue CLJS-84 filed
02:49	dnolen	matt00: fixed in HEAD
02:49	dnolen	sleep time for moi.
02:49	tomoj	http://moo4q.com/ I found the h2's here funny
02:50	tomoj	I bet I don't really understand what they're saying
02:50	tomoj	but.. "Immutable Functions #ftl / Stateful Objects #ftw"
02:56	matt00	w00t
02:56	devn	tomoj: heh
02:57	devn	tomoj: welcome to 2004
03:01	tomoj	dammit
03:01	tomoj	I knew I'd be disappointed by dart
03:01	tomoj	but I was secretly hoping..
03:32	Blkt	good morning everyone
03:42	thorwil	good morning!
04:06	Fossi	well, it's not 3 am here, so don't feel bad :>
05:30	shanmu	is clojure/data.xml ready for use - the readme says otherwise, is there anything I can do to help get it ready for use?
05:38	shanmu	\bye
05:41	eiro	(hello)
06:25	shanmu	any one have an idea reagarding the status of clojure/data.xml? Is there anyhting I can do to help it get ready for use?
06:36	clgv	shanmu: you might try to use it
06:36	clgv	I dont know it's status or why the readme discourages using it
07:16	shanmu	clgv: thanks! I have started using it - not yet run.. will keep the Channel posted
07:40	jcromartie	(= (fn [x] (+ x 1)) (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
07:40	jcromartie	I wish that were true
07:44	babilen	+1
07:44	zilti	,(identical? (fn [x] (+ x 1)) (fn [x] (+ x 1)))
07:44	clojurebot	false
07:45	zilti	meh
07:49	clgv	jcromantie: it cant since these are two distinct objects, but you can compare their type
07:49	clgv	but that works only for defns
07:50	clgv	you could as well annotate their definition in meta-data and compare thos
07:50	lucian	hmm, = should work i think
07:50	lucian	if can just compare the s-exps
07:58	zilti	,(identical? '(fn [x] (+ x 1)) '(fn [x] (+ x 1)))
07:58	clojurebot	false
08:00	jcromartie	well
08:00	jcromartie	,(= '(fn [x] (+ x 1)) '(fn [x] (+ x 1)))
08:00	clojurebot	true
08:01	jcromartie	no problem
08:01	jcromartie	but
08:01	zilti	???
08:01	lazybot	zilti: How could that be wrong?
08:01	jcromartie	,(doc identical?)
08:01	clojurebot	"([x y]); Tests if 2 arguments are the same object"
08:01	zilti	,(doc =))
08:01	clojurebot	"([x] [x y] [x y & more]); Equality. Returns true if x equals y, false if not. Same as Java x.equals(y) except it also works for nil, and compares numbers and collections in a type-independent manner. Clojure's immutable data structures define equals() (and thus =) as a value, not an identity, comparison."
08:02	zilti	I see. So identical? is even worse than =
08:02	jcromartie	"worse?"
08:02	jcromartie	no it's just specific
08:03	jcromartie	,(map #(identical? %1 %2) [[1 1] ["hi" "hi"] [:foo :foo] [{:x 1} {:x 1}] [(Object.) (Object.)]])
08:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval129$fn>
08:03	jcromartie	derp
08:03	jcromartie	,(map #(apply identical? %1 %2) [[1 1] ["hi" "hi"] [:foo :foo] [{:x 1} {:x 1}] [(Object.) (Object.)]])
08:03	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval159$fn>
08:03	jcromartie	DERP
08:03	jcromartie	,(map #(apply identical? %) [[1 1] ["hi" "hi"] [:foo :foo] [{:x 1} {:x 1}] [(Object.) (Object.)]])
08:03	clojurebot	(true true true false false)
08:46	tdrgabi1	reddit.clj?
10:27	jcromartie	what's so hard about "reporting" that it requires all of these big crazy libraries?
10:27	jcromartie	(like Crystal ReportS)
10:28	mattmitchell	anyone have experience with amazon's beanstalk and clojure ?
10:28	jcromartie	(totally off topic, sort of...)
10:32	mvdir	I am getting the following error: "Unable to resolve symbol: -?> in this context" when trying to use storm-deploy. Can someone help me understand how to debug this?
10:33	mvdir	I am in a lein repl,
10:33	jcromartie	mvdir: what's your current namespace?
10:33	mvdir	but am unsure how to import the class to attempt to debug it.
10:33	mvdir	jcromartie: I am not sure.
10:34	mvdir	I tried doing (in-ns backtype)
10:34	jcromartie	it says on the line, before =>
10:34	jcromartie	for example "user=?"
10:34	jcromartie	err "user=>"
10:34	mvdir	Ah, thanks.
10:34	jcromartie	by default
10:34	mvdir	It's one I created, woo
10:34	mvdir	I tried doing this:
10:35	mvdir	(ns woo (:import backtype.storm.security))
10:35	mvdir	But I got a classnotfoundexception.
10:36	mvdir	Like I said, I'm in the lein repl, which I thought would have all the classes automatically.
10:36	mvdir	:-/
10:36	jcromartie	hm
10:37	jcromartie	no
10:37	jcromartie	you want (:require backtype.storm.security)
10:37	mvdir	jcromartie: Sorry, total n00b here.
10:37	jcromartie	or better: (:require [... :as foo]) so you can use the shortcut foo/whatever to refer to that namespace
10:37	jcromartie	to shorten it
10:38	jcromartie	(:use some-ns) imports everything in the specified namespace
10:38	jcromartie	which might be more than you need or want
10:38	jcromartie	or there might be collisions
10:38	jcromartie	which is why you should use require instead
10:38	jcromartie	and require with :as to shorten references when necessary
10:39	jcromartie	does that make any sense at all? :)
10:39	mvdir	Definitely.
10:39	clgv	jcromartie: you can also do (:use foo :only (bar))
10:39	mvdir	I think a ns collision is the real problem I am trying to address.
10:39	jcromartie	that's true
10:40	mvdir	jcromartie: Hmmm, I am still getting no source file.
10:41	mvdir	I tried ie. (:use pallet.compute)
10:41	TimMc	clgv: "Only use :use with :only" :-)
10:41	TimMc	as they say
10:42	clgv	well sometimes thats annoying when you start implementing a new namespace ;)
10:42	TimMc	Nothing wrong with :require :as
10:47	raek	mvdir: when you are in the repl, it's probably more convenient to use the require, use and in-ns functions instead of the ns macro
10:48	raek	mvdir: for example, to load a namespace and "enter it": (require 'the-ns) (in-ns 'the-ns)
10:48	raek	or (doto 'the-ns require in-ns)
10:48	mvdir	raek: Thanks
10:48	raek	not the quote that you have to use for these functions
10:48	raek	*note
10:50	clgv	thats a good combination "note the quote" :D
10:50	raek	mvdir: this explains everything about require, use, import and ns: http://blog.8thlight.com/colin-jones/2010/12/05/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns.html
10:51	raek	heh. "note the quote"... it would be a nice name for a podcast!
10:53	mvdir	Does -?> mean anything in clojure?
10:53	clgv	mvdir: yes
10:54	jcromartie	mvdir: it's not part of the standard included functions though
10:54	clgv	it's from clojure.contrib.core and escapes the series of function calls if a nil is encountered
10:54	mvdir	jcromartie: I am getting "Unable to resolve symbol: -?> in this context"
10:54	mvdir	How do I include it?
10:55	clgv	(:use clojure.contrib.core :only (-?>))
10:55	raek	mvdir: do you want to use it in your own namespace, or are you trying to run someone else's code?
10:55	mvdir	raek someone else's code.
10:55	mvdir	Specifically the jclouds 1.2.0-SNAPSHOT
10:55	mvdir	For storm-deploy
10:55	mvdir	https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm-deploy
10:56	raek	ok, and you just want to call a function in someone else's namespace?
10:56	duck1123	-?> is in core.incubator as well, I believe
10:56	mvdir	raek: Yes, I would like to fix the issue, if possible.
10:57	raek	I'm confused about how you are trying to run it
10:57	raek	(and I'm not familiar with that specific library)
10:58	mvdir	raek: sorry,
10:58	mvdir	I am trying to run some command line utilities.
10:58	mvdir	Which automatically create ec2 stuff.
10:59	raek	all the error tells me is that you are trying to evaluate something at the repl that should be evaluated inside some file (e.g. copy-paste the contents of a file out of context)
10:59	mvdir	jclouds is a library which automates some of the ec2 rest calls.
10:59	mvdir	When I try to run it, I get this stack trace.
10:59	raek	ok, so it generates the code which conatains the -?> usage?
10:59	mvdir	raek
11:00	raek	mvdir: ah, so you didn't put the -?> there?
11:00	mvdir	I think that code is just in a jar I am trying to use.
11:00	mvdir	No
11:00	mvdir	,
11:00	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
11:00	mvdir	Let me see if I can get a link.
11:00	mvdir	Whoops.
11:01	raek	"Unable to resolve symbol" means that someone (perhaps not you in this case) tries to use a var that hasn't been used or required in the curent namespace
11:02	mvdir	raek: Looks like it was this commit:
11:02	mvdir	https://github.com/jclouds/jclouds/commit/9d30fde37511b0b7dad39378e93da1a88ad253fa#apis/ec2/src/main/clojure/org/jclouds/ec2/ebs.clj
11:03	raek	that would explain it
11:03	mvdir	raek: Excellent, thanks.
11:03	mvdir	I will see if they can fix it in their channel.
11:04	mvdir	Whoof, this yak is particularly hairy when it requires you to learn a whole new lang.
11:04	raek	strange that they didn't test this
11:04	raek	simply loading the namespace would have signalled an error...
11:04	mvdir	I dunno, where I work we mostly deploy hadoop/cassandra.
11:05	mvdir	Which is all << 1.0
11:05	mvdir	So I guess I'm used to broken $#!7.
11:06	TimMc	mvdir: What has led to this yak-shaving?
11:07	mvdir	TimMc: trying to deploy storm (https://github.com/nathanmarz/storm-deploy)
11:09	mvdir	I guess my ec2 is behaving differently from what they have at twitter.
11:11	raek	mvdir: a simple fix is to add (:use [clojure.core.incubator :only [-?>]]) to that file (they already have the incubator lib as a dependency)
11:12	mvdir	raek, thanks very much.
11:12	mvdir	If I were in front of my github account, I would upstream this...
11:12	mvdir	:-/
11:14	raek	if one of their devs simply requires every namespace they have, it will be clear for them what to do (this should be a really simple bug for them to analyze and fix)
11:15	mvdir	raek: I agree, sloppy,
11:16	mvdir	but it is a development snapshot.
11:19	xiaolongxia	mvdir: are you still having problems?
11:20	xiaolongxia	if so, why don't you come into #pallet since it seems like you are having problems more specific to pallet
11:26	ljos	Hi - I'm having some classpath issues. I have a previous java project that I would like to continue on in Clojure. The project has two source folders one for each side of the project. I add both of the source paths in :java-source-path, but when I try to compile the clojure program I get package not found from only one of the source folders. Any ideas? I might not have made myself very clear...
11:28	ljos	I created a new clojure project in the same folder as the source folders for the java project.
11:28	clgv	ljos: how does the part of the project.clj with the :java-source-path exctly look like?
11:30	ljos	clgv :java-source-path [["source1"] ["source2"]]
11:31	ljos	The source folders are inside the same folder as the project.clj
11:32	dnolen	hmm, the fact that keywords and symbols are actually represented as JS Strings makes it tricky to make (str ...) work on them ...
11:33	clgv	ljo: I dont thing the inner array brackets are needed
11:33	clgv	*think
11:33	dnolen	cemerick: I'm rooting for the no ClojureScript releases. Download a dated jar or work against HEAD.
11:33	ljos	It's written that way in the tutorial for lein.
11:34	mvdir	raek: clgv: jcromartie: Thanks for all your help!
11:34	cemerick	dnolen: Stone ages. Apply that to every project in central or clojars, and see what happens. :-(
11:34	ljos	But maybe not needed, they don't do anything though as it still finds source1
11:34	clgv	ljos: from a logic point of view I dont know what those additional vectors are needed for. so try removing those brackets
11:34	cemerick	Or, just apply it to Clojure itself, and see what happens.
11:36	dnolen	cemerick: I do not think the world we live in today is appreciably better than pre 1.2.0, many people tracked HEAD then.
11:36	ljos	clgv: then I get an illegalArgumentException.
11:36	cemerick	dnolen: tracked HEAD via snapshot artifacts obtained via maven repositories
11:37	ljos	clgv, I think they are there so you can set flags if you need to.
11:37	clgv	ljos: ok. hmm maybe they are for additional options
11:37	dnolen	cemerick: and?
11:38	ejackson	fear... and suffering :)
11:38	cemerick	dnolen: snapshots at least take care of distribution.
11:38	cemerick	IMO, releases and reasonable use of repositories have to be the null hypothesis in discussions like these.
11:39	dnolen	cemerick: I'm just trying to figure what has actually improved? seems like most Clojure library version fragmentation and feet dragging. If you can call those improvements.
11:40	cemerick	dnolen: Improved since, what, 1.2 was released?
11:40	ljos	clgv: it seems like lein only looks in the same source folder for the packages as the class it is compiling comes from. Could this be correct?
11:41	ljos	clgv: The class that is being compiled references a class in the other source folder. This is where it fails and cannot find the package.
11:41	cemerick	Clojure is in no way a role model for how to manage releases and distribution, IMO. Lots of gnarly history and hard battles have preceded where things stand today.
11:41	clgv	ljos: oh. no idea. maybe you should file a ticket for that
11:42	ljos	clgv: ok. I am not sure if it is a bug. I might just be doing something wrong :P
11:42	clgv	ljos: then you could also write to the mailing list
11:56	dnolen_	cemerick: good chance a principled argument will be needed ;) Google Closure Compiler tools themselves don't do releases, are widely used, and the complaints don't seem more or less pronounced.
12:00	cemerick	oy
12:00	cemerick	dnolen_: just as a thought experiment, what if clojars, maven central, and apt didn't exist? #rhetorical
12:01	cemerick	Google is widely mocked for not doing proper releases of all sorts of libraries, FWIW.
12:02	dnolen_	cemerick: and Maven is mocked in general.
12:02	cemerick	w.r.t. dependency management, it's the worst…except for all the other options.
12:03	dnolen_	cemerick: I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here ;) Clojars, Maven + Lein makes life much easier in the short term - but perhaps harder in the long term as we've seen.
12:04	cemerick	In that case, I'll save my ammunition for larger bosses. ;-)
12:04	cemerick	dnolen_: what hardships though?
12:04	KirinDave	dnolen_: Could be worse
12:04	KirinDave	dnolen_: Could be SBT.
12:04	dnolen_	cemerick: dead libraries, people resolving 1.3.0 changes now.
12:04	dnolen_	KirinDave: heh
12:05	arohner	dnolen_: IMO, 1.3 issues are due to AOT compilation, not maven/clojars/lein
12:05	cemerick	dnolen_: compared to tarballs and tracking HEAD? Easy choice, IMO.
12:05	dnolen_	arohner: binary compat for AOT was non-goal as far as Iknew.
12:05	dnolen_	I never heard anything mentioned about binary compat moving forward.
12:05	arohner	dnolen_: sure, but whether it was chosen as a goal doesn't change whether it's a problem :-)
12:05	dnolen_	switching to ASM 4.0 will probably break it again.
12:06	arohner	only shipping source would also work
12:06	dnolen_	arohner: I'd consider it a non problem. See JavaScript, only shipping source.
12:06	cemerick	It's been mostly proven that source compat is not sufficient. Whether we can do anything about it is another story.
12:07	arohner	cemerick: why is source compat not sufficient? seems to me source-only would be just fine. It's the shipping non-compat binary that's a problem
12:07	cemerick	Shipping source only works if you can pay the costs of loading it at runtime, and if the code doesn't actually hold much value.
12:07	arohner	what do you mean "hold value"? everything downloading off public maven is OSS
12:08	cemerick	arohner: source doesn't work for e.g. android, and everything lots of people get paid for never touches a public maven repo :-)
12:08	dnolen_	cemerick: what costs? How long does it take load 60K of production Clojure? I can't imagine it being any amount of time worth caring about. certainly nothing to care about given Java/C/C++ compile times.
12:08	dnolen_	cemerick: Clojure doesn't work that well on Android in it's current form, right?
12:09	cemerick	right, because of the runtime code-gen and GC overhead
12:09	cemerick	thus, AOT is a must to cure at least half
12:09	arohner	cemerick: I'm not saying abandon compilation. I'm saying do AOT "privately".
12:09	cemerick	right
12:10	cemerick	Which is what I do, exclusively.
12:10	cemerick	But that doesn't mean that its problems go away — they just get seen by fewer eyes.
12:10	arohner	right
12:11	cemerick	Just ask me sometime about the instance where a customer tried to upgrade one library of mine, but not the other. :-)
12:12	cemerick	Puts a real dent in that "hey, Clojure is just another .jar file" deployment/reach story.
12:43	technomancy	lots of the problems with AOT do go away if it's solely done at the endpoints
12:43	technomancy	(once you have nailed down which clojure version is going to be used)
12:44	technomancy	another 45% goes away when #322 is fixed
12:45	hugod	cemerick: fwiw, I have a pom that jars clojurescript, and another for the closure library, and have artifacts for them on clojars
12:47	hugod	had to do that to get the zi-cljs maven plugin working
12:51	cgray	hi, is there a function that takes multiple seqs and alternates between them? (f '(1 2 3) '(4 5 6)) => (1 4 2 5 3 6)
12:51	arohner	,(flatten (map vec (range 0 3) (range 4 6))
12:52	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: EOF while reading>
12:52	arohner	,(flatten (map vec (range 0 3) (range 4 6)))
12:52	clojurebot	#<ArityException clojure.lang.ArityException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$vec>
12:52	cgray	i see what you're going for, thanks
12:52	arohner	,(flatten (map vector (range 0 4) (range 4 7)))
12:52	clojurebot	(0 4 1 5 2 ...)
12:52	arohner	there
12:53	arohner	I always get vec and vector confused
12:53	Chousuke	(doc interleave)
12:53	clojurebot	"([c1 c2] [c1 c2 & colls]); Returns a lazy seq of the first item in each coll, then the second etc."
12:54	cemerick	hugod: Sure. I think my bottom line in that department is, one should keep shit from running downhill to your users.
12:55	cemerick	Even if someone provided cljs as a dependency, there'd be many of them, and many people having to track changes and make calls from an outside perspective w.r.t. version numbers, etc.
12:57	technomancy	dnolen_: out of curiosity, do you check clojurescript jars into git?
12:57	technomancy	(just trying to determine what the alternative is)
12:57	hugod	cemerick: I agree
12:58	cemerick	hugod: at least we have our coping strategy planned out!
12:58	cemerick	a pom, a whiteboard, github, and a bottle of tequila.
12:58	cemerick	:-P
12:59	technomancy	I'm for it! http://m.assetbar.com/achewood/uuavvRhdS
12:59	hugod	nah, a nice single malt here please
13:00	cemerick	technomancy: thanks for that :-)
13:01	cemerick	technomancy: BTW, do you always have a buffer full of links to useful comics and memegenerator sites? ;-)
13:02	dnolen_	technomancy: I do not. it's not clear to me what the best way is to package CLJS files. I think there will be many cases where CLJ doesn't need to be involved at all.
13:02	technomancy	cemerick: I do have some help: https://github.com/technomancy/dotfiles/blob/master/.conkerorrc#L47
13:03	pjstadig	technomancy: the truth finally comes out
13:04	technomancy	pjstadig: well that doesn't cover penny arcade, xkcd, or smbc
13:12	ibdknox	dnolen_: does that preclude just using jars?
13:13	dnolen_	ibdknox: not that I see no. Just haven't gotten that far as there are few libraries beyond things like Pinot that I would even want to include in a CLJS project.
13:14	dnolen_	shipping w/ Google Closure also means there's a lot of useful functionality you don't need to go hunting for in an external lib.
13:14	ibdknox	technomancy: dnolen_: mkay, so far having pinot up on Clojars has worked out well
13:14	ibdknox	dnolen_: true, but using those APIs directly is gross
13:16	technomancy	the whole "force a stable release on a project that doesn't want to do it for themselves" has worked out surprisingly well for slime; the only time it's an issue is when people want to use other things that depend upon CVS trunk, which seems very unlikely for gclosure.
13:17	technomancy	I guess it also depends on what gclosure's policy on backwards compatibility is. if it's like slime (everyone should use trunk always and forever) then bringing stability upon it becomes more important; if they are really good about maintaining backwards compatibility always, then it's not going to hurt so bad not having releases
13:19	cemerick	I don't think anyone's said anything about 'stable'.
13:20	srid	does anyone else have problems with aleph.http suppressing stacktraces?
13:21	technomancy	cemerick: stability of clojurescript and stability of gclosure are different questions though.
13:22	cemerick	Certainly, but I don't think it's even up for discussion at this point.
13:23	cemerick	gclosure will be shipped in tarballs until the end of time; I take that as a given.
13:23	cemerick	tarballs, with the potential for huge upheavals at any time, I should say
13:23	duck1123	srid: That happened to me too
13:24	cemerick	And ClojureScript is too young and is bleeding too profusely to think it's time to lock it up.
13:24	ibdknox	cemerick: I hope it doesn't bleed to death :p
13:24	cemerick	But distribution and repeatability are paramount.
13:25	arkh	fleetdb id question: is there a better way to find the next available id for a given collection than by hand? e.g. checked-write w/ (client ["select" "asdf" {"order" ["id" "desc"], "limit" 1}])
13:25	dnolen_	cemerick: a lot of rhetoric not many facts ;)
13:25	duck1123	srid: I was using the ssl patch and it was failing on me because the site I was hitting's cert was being rejected, so it was just returning nil
13:26	technomancy	are people able to hobble along with submodules? that at least locks you to a specific sha.
13:26	cemerick	dnolen_: sounds like classic irc! :-D
13:26	ibdknox	technomancy: gclosure is svn
13:26	cemerick	technomancy: git submodules are sooo sad.
13:26	ibdknox	and I agree with cemerick
13:26	technomancy	cemerick: I know =(
13:27	technomancy	I have been able to avoid them for 4 years, but that has come to an end this week.
13:27	cemerick	ouch
13:27	technomancy	they're enough to make a man gaze fondly at hg
13:27	cemerick	hrm, not sure about that…
13:27	technomancy	apparently hg can have subrepos in a _foreign_ vcs
13:28	cemerick	the last time I tried to do a checkout in an hg repo, it took _an hour_
13:28	TimMc	Sounds not unreasonable for a fairly large repo.
13:28	technomancy	you sure it wasn't bzr?
13:28	cemerick	nope, never used bzr
13:29	TimMc	(a fairly large svn repo, specifically)
13:29	cemerick	~140MB working directory, one hour
13:29	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
13:29	technomancy	on the emacs-devel mailing list there's a thread every month or so going "I tried to check out Emacs and it's taken 3 hours so far and isn't done yet; what did I do wrong?" / "nothing, that's how it's supposed to work." / "..."
13:32	mtm	arkh: not that I'm aware of; seems like I nice feature to have for fleetdb, basically some meta-data on the collection
13:39	arkh	mtm: there's a meme there somewhere - 'scumbag fleetdb: requires unique id's per collection, doesn't provide them'
13:39	srid	duck1123: for me, no stacktraces were being printed in the console. the browser returns some ERR_NOT_FOUND or something.
13:39	srid	no matter what the error is
13:52	licenser	Has anyone managed to put static files in ring/compojure jar?
13:55	amalloy	arohner, cgray: augh do not use flatten for that. of course interleave is best, but if you were reinventing it flatten would be wrong. you want ##(mapcat list [1 2 3] [4 5 6])
13:55	lazybot	⇒ (1 4 2 5 3 6)
13:56	amalloy	specifically because things like ##(flatten (map list '[[a b] [c d]] [1 2])) break
13:56	lazybot	⇒ (a b 1 c d 2)
13:58	jcrossley3	technomancy: dude, the built-in swank clojure jack in stuff is very sweet, thanks for that!
13:58	justicefries	anybody using clojure in large production environments?
13:58	justicefries	on a daily basis?
13:58	technomancy	jcrossley3: great! I'm pretty happy with the way byte-compiling works now.
13:58	pjstadig	several
14:00	justicefries	nice.
14:08	pdlogan	the clojurescript bootstrap pulls down clojure 1.3-beta3 --- an harm changing that to the 1.3 release?
14:08	pdlogan	^y
14:13	cemerick	licenser: I just put them into the .war file where they should be, and let the app server serve up the static resources on its own.
14:14	licenser	cemerick: hmmm thanks :) I tried that but I failed so far - but if that should work I will retry it
14:15	cemerick	licenser: I've personally never used ring to serve static assets.
14:16	devn	licenser: for some reason I remember needing to serve static assets with moustache
14:16	licenser	I see, I just slapped together a compojure/ring thing and I kind keep failing ^^
14:19	licenser	this ain't easy ^^
14:20	gtrak	pdlogan, why's it matter?
14:21	pdlogan	gtrak - not much that I know of.
14:31	devn	licenser: I might have my code around, let me look for you
14:31	devn	licenser: it will be old, but it might be what you need
14:31	licenser	that'd be great :)
14:32	devn	licenser: ring.util.response
14:32	devn	you need (file-response)
14:32	devn	licenser: I also have a call to (wrap-file)
14:32	devn	you may need that as well
14:33	licenser	wrap-file is kind of icky because it checks for the existence of the file beforehand
14:33	ghiu	hi, how can i call a function whose name i have in a string? is eval the only way?
14:34	amalloy	ghiu: did you ask a question about this recently on SO? if not, you should look because someone else did
14:34	licenser	ghiu: I know that isn't the answer, why?
14:34	devn	licenser: https://gist.github.com/1278941
14:34	devn	licenser: you could write your own wrap-file i suppose
14:34	amalloy	licenser: shouldn't compojure.route/resources Just Work?
14:34	ibdknox	amalloy, yes
14:35	ibdknox	or just use Noir and the whole point is moot
14:35	ibdknox	:)
14:35	amalloy	shakes fist damn you, noir...
14:35	amalloy	ghiu: for reference, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7715800/clojure-determine-if-a-function-exists
14:35	ibdknox	bwahahaha
14:36	ghiu	yes, i'm reading
14:36	licenser	amalloy: I try that thanks and devn thanks too :) I will dig around that all
14:36	ghiu	but this seems about checking for existence, not actually calling it
14:36	amalloy	so what. same task
14:36	ghiu	(eval (symbol s))
14:37	devn	amalloy: this? https://github.com/weavejester/compojure/blob/master/src/compojure/route.clj#L23
14:37	devn	licenser: ^^
14:37	TimMc	ghiu: Read the first answer.
14:38	ibdknox	,((resolve (symbol "inc")) 1)
14:38	clojurebot	2
14:38	devn	ibdknox: noir is nice, but it could use more docs ;)
14:38	ibdknox	devn, what?
14:38	ibdknox	devn, Noir is probably one of the best documented Clojure libs out there...
14:38	ghiu	oh, right. thank you
14:38	ibdknox	devn, http://webnoir.org/
14:38	amalloy	maybe the docs are too...dark to read? help me out here, i need more puns
14:39	ibdknox	lolol
14:39	ordnungswidrig	hi all
14:39	ibdknox	amalloy, I'm not sure if I should inc or dec you for that...
14:39	devn	ibdknox: i was kidding buddy, your docs are good
14:39	TimMc	needs more cowbell
14:39	devn	ibdknox: that's usually the first thing i say to anyone in the clojure community
14:39	devn	"i like your project. write more docs"
14:39	ibdknox	hshs :)
14:39	ibdknox	fail
14:39	ibdknox	haha*
14:40	amalloy	,(doseq [x '[inc dec]] (println (list x 'amalloy)))
14:40	clojurebot	(inc amalloy)
14:40	lazybot	⟹ 17
14:40	clojurebot	(dec amalloy)
14:40	lazybot	⟹ 16
14:40	ibdknox	lol
14:40	TimMc	cute
14:40	cemerick	devn: evil :-)
14:41	TimMc	,(println '(inc clojurebot))
14:41	clojurebot	(inc clojurebot)
14:41	lazybot	You can't adjust your own karma.
14:41	TimMc	:-)
14:41	ibdknox	lol
14:41	ibdknox	(inc clojurebot)
14:41	lazybot	⟹ 4
14:43	devn	haha
14:44	Raynes	That arrow is almost long enough to be obnoxious in this font.
14:44	Raynes	No wonder people complained about it.
14:44	devn	what arrow?
14:44	ibdknox	it is kind of ugly
14:44	Raynes	The unicode arrow that lazybot prints when you inc or dec karma.
14:44	Raynes	amalloy: New arrow, plz.
14:45	amalloy	Raynes: you're the one who told me you had it totally handled when you changed the arrow in clojure-mde
14:45	devn	I thought I was in a unicode terminal
14:45	amalloy	man. the clojure plugin. not clojure-mode
14:45	devn	apparently not
14:48	licenser	hussa :D
14:48	licenser	devn amalloy! :) you are my heros!
14:48	ibdknox	licenser, you should check out Noir. http://webnoir.org/ ;)
14:50	Raynes	ibdknox: Donate time and make try-clojure run on Noir.
14:50	licenser	ibdknox: I don't have much of actual web serving to do just a few js files and a few json files :) but I will look at it
14:52	ibdknox	wow it is a lot simpler than I expected :)
14:53	ibdknox	Raynes, I'll do that this weekend, maybe before if I magically find some time
14:53	Raynes	Cool. Note that I didn't actually expect you to be willing.
14:54	amalloy	yeah, seriously. ibdknox, how do you feel about updating 4clojure to use 1.3 too?
14:54	ibdknox	It'll be an interesting exercise, I haven't used mustache
14:54	ibdknox	amalloy, hah mustache -> noir = easy.... 1.2 -> 1.3 = unknown :p
14:54	Raynes	Do lazybot and related projects while you're at it.
14:55	Raynes	I'm using moustache? I could have swore I rewrote that code to use compojure at some point.
14:55	ibdknox	Raynes, we should just teach lazybot how to do it and then have him run over github when he's not busy doing important IRC things
14:55	Raynes	Maybe I'm a stoner and just haven't noticed.
14:55	Raynes	That'd never work. The bot is lazy.
14:56	ibdknox	cattle prod?
14:56	Raynes	We can give it ago.
14:56	Raynes	a go*
14:57	ibdknox	Raynes, yeah it uses Moustache
14:57	ibdknox	oh
14:57	ibdknox	there's a compojure branch
14:57	ibdknox	even easier then :p
15:00	Raynes	ibdknox: Yeah, the compojure branch appears to be more up-to-date and is likely the branch the actual site is running off of.
15:01	ibdknox	ibdknox, given the site fits in a single file and doesn't look ridiculous, there's probably no real benefit to moving it to Noir, except for being part of the club of course.
15:01	ibdknox	damnit
15:01	ibdknox	I do that a lot
15:01	ibdknox	Raynes: ^
15:01	Raynes	Club membership is enough of a benefit.
15:01	ibdknox	amalloy is not a part of the club, so you know it has to be good ;)
15:02	amalloy	ibdknox: your docs should include a screencast: filmed noir
15:03	ibdknox	hahaha
15:04	ibdknox	amalloy, I think I would have a hard time taking it seriously
15:04	ibdknox	because that would clearly be serious business
15:04	Raynes	Or, srs bsns.
15:04	ibdknox	indeed.
15:04	justicefries	wait, templating in noir is done with a series of macros?
15:05	ibdknox	justicefries, templating is done however you want it to be done. By default my examples use hiccup
15:05	justicefries	aah.
15:05	justicefries	i like it.
15:05	ibdknox	justicefries, it has the lowest cognitive load
15:05	ibdknox	enlive is scary at first
15:09	jcromartie	are there any caveats to really really really big data structures?
15:09	ibdknox	blanket statement: yes
15:09	jcromartie	for example: are there any limitations to the number of values in a hash-map
15:09	justicefries	yeah, this is pretty cool.
15:10	justicefries	it's like sinatra. :D
15:10	amalloy	jcromartie: try not to have more map keys than there are electrons in the universe
15:10	amalloy	i don't think clojure supports this usage
15:10	jcromartie	amalloy: good tip
15:11	jcromartie	I'm designing an architecture where clients (organizations) are segregated into their own refs
15:11	jcromartie	and the ref holds a map
15:11	jcromartie	the map will need to hold potentially up to 2M invoices
15:11	jcromartie	invoices being fairly small bits of data
15:12	jcromartie	obviously I need to be sure to set print-length on my REPL :P
15:12	jcromartie	I wish there was a good measure of object size in Clojure...
15:13	ibdknox	jcromartie, you need to hold 2M items per client... in memory?
15:13	jcromartie	well that is a future "worst case"
15:13	amalloy	jcromartie: no such thing exists in a garbage-collected language. profilers, at least, can show you shallow-size and retained-size, which are fairly close
15:14	amalloy	but you need to work with the internal implementation of the heap to be able to get numbers like that - you couldn't do it in a running process
15:14	ibdknox	I'm not sure why you'd ever need to use that much data all at once
15:15	ibdknox	it'd be a lot easier to chunk it and work on the chunks, retrieving when necessary
15:15	jcromartie	ibdknox: potentially
15:15	jcromartie	(chunk it)
15:15	jcromartie	well
15:16	jcromartie	the system that this is replacing has served about 900K invoices over 12 years for our largest client
15:16	Raynes	This is why I never visit #clojure while sick. All the talk about chunks makes me nauseous.
15:16	jcromartie	so that 2M might be an exaggeration
15:16	ibdknox	lol
15:16	ibdknox	#clojure, not for the weak of stomach
15:17	ibdknox	jcromartie, even if it's exaggerated by an order of magnitude, I have a feeling you'd actually be better off splitting it up and storing intermediate results if you need to aggregate them back together
15:17	justicefries	i realize the more and more I play with Clojure the more and more I don't "get it" when I think I do.
15:18	ibdknox	jcromartie, to be fair, I know nothing of your problem, so grain of salt and all that :)
15:18	zerokarmaleft	jcromartie: cgrand just posted about comparing megarefs to something more granular that might apply to your situation
15:18	jcromartie	yes :)
15:19	jcromartie	well these aren't quite megarefs
15:21	ibdknox	justicefries, like what?
15:23	mattmitchell	I need to store clojure data structures and read them back later. Using eval is super slow. Is there another way?
15:23	jcromartie	the system that this is replacing goes back a long way though
15:23	ibdknox	,(doc read-string)
15:23	zerokarmaleft	jcromartie: why not offload to a database so you're not having to deal with keeping 2M items in memory?
15:23	clojurebot	"([s]); Reads one object from the string s"
15:23	ibdknox	mattmitchell, ^
15:24	mattmitchell	awesome thanks!
15:24	jcromartie	zerokarmaleft: well like I said 2M is probably a big exaggeration
15:24	jcromartie	we're not building this system for the biggest client
15:24	jcromartie	we're building it for the other 500
15:24	brehaut	(doc read-eval)
15:24	clojurebot	"; When set to logical false, the EvalReader (#=(...)) is disabled in the read/load in the thread-local binding. Example: (binding [read-eval false] (read-string \"#=(eval (def x 3))\")) Defaults to true"
15:24	justicefries	ibdknox: all the joys of functional, side effect free programming that isn't necessarily a feature in ruby. ;)
15:25	amalloy	ponder ibdknox, mattmitchell - aren't eval and read-string orthogonal? if he was using eval, he must have already had something parsed by the reader
15:25	ibdknox	amalloy, hah
15:25	ibdknox	amalloy, yes
15:26	jcromartie	zerokarmaleft: but interestingly, the design is quite friendly to migrating to a database later
15:26	jcromartie	zerokarmaleft: since I'm journaling changes, it could be adapted to write into a DB
15:27	mattmitchell	amalloy: i'm attempting to store simple data structures using the str function. Then bring them back to life using eval. Eval feels slow, I guess I'm trying to avoid using something like json.
15:27	jcromartie	anyway it's an experiment in prevalent system design
15:27	amalloy	mattmitchell: do you have it actually working? because i don't think your description makes sense, in the sense that it shouldn't work
15:28	brehaut	mattmitchell: eval invokes a compiler on an sexp (not text), read-string (and the other reader functions) are very similar to a json reader
15:29	mattmitchell	amalloy: it does seem to be working
15:30	mattmitchell	brehaut: so eval would definitely have more overhead and probably not even work for what I'm trying to do?
15:30	brehaut	mattmitchell: correct
15:30	mattmitchell	i see
15:31	brehaut	,((just read-string eval) "(+ 1 2)")
15:31	clojurebot	#<Exception java.lang.Exception: SANBOX DENIED>
15:31	brehaut	hah of course
15:31	brehaut	try that in your own repl
15:31	mattmitchell	ok :)
15:31	amalloy	brehaut: he should also change just to juxt :P
15:31	brehaut	goddamn autocorrect
15:31	amalloy	hah. mac user?
15:31	brehaut	yeah
15:32	brehaut	autocorrect has double the number of typos i make
15:32	mattmitchell	ahh that helps a lot... to illustrate what's happening. thanks.
15:32	brehaut	mattmitchell: you should make sure you understand what is happening with read-eval too if you plan to employ the reader yourself
15:33	mattmitchell	brehaut: well, i basically want to store simple data structures (no function calls), and de-serialize them as fast as possible. So not sure if what I'm doing is the right approach or not?
15:34	brehaut	mattmitchell: text formats are typically not the fastest possible, but getting faster is going to crystalize data concerns much earlier than is ideal
15:36	brehaut	mattmitchell: do you have the rest of this program written already?
15:43	duck1123	What library should I be using if I need to do things like list, move, delete files? c.j.io seems limited. Should I just use File? lancet?
15:45	mattmitchell	brehaut: sorry had to step away... not entirely. Currently the data is stored as json in a search engine but the de-serialization from json is slow. So looking for alternatives.
15:46	mattmitchell	i should mention... the data stored does not need to be readable, it's only stored for retrieval
15:46	cgray	is there any way to get the locals in the slime debugger?
15:46	brehaut	mattmitchell: which json library are you using?
15:47	mattmitchell	brehaut: it was clj-json, now we're trying out cheshire
15:49	TimMc	duck1123: Yeah, "move" seems to be missing.
15:49	daniel___	hi all, another evening of trying to get a repl in vim for me
15:49	Bronsa	duck1123: try fs
15:49	TimMc	(from c.j.io)
15:50	mattmitchell	brehaut: actually, eval of clojure data is looking pretty good, compared to the json de-serialization
15:52	jcromartie	I'm playing with searching 50K records in a hash-map right now
15:53	jcromartie	that covers 99.6% of our clients after 12 years of business
15:53	ordnungswidrig	search among 50k or for 50k hits
15:53	ipostelnik	searching over 50K shouldn't be a big deal
15:54	ipostelnik	i've used a hierarchical map that had 350K leaf-level maps as a poor-mans DB
15:54	jcromartie	:P
15:54	jcromartie	mean # of bills: 3400
15:54	jcromartie	media: 1097
15:54	jcromartie	median*
15:54	ordnungswidrig	ipostelnik: I use this with event sourcing and it works great
15:55	jcromartie	anyway, the aversion to a DB at this point is part curiosity (asking "do we need it?") and part practicality: getting a prototype up and running as fast as possible
15:55	ordnungswidrig	jcromartie: so it's ,(* 50 3400) orders in total?
15:56	jcromartie	ordnungswidrig: 429 organizations, 3400 invoices (mean)
15:56	jcromartie	but they will be segregated
15:56	ordnungswidrig	jcromartie: what's you memory footprint?
15:56	jcromartie	each organization in its own collection
15:56	jcromartie	ordnungswidrig: server is effectively unlimite
15:57	jcromartie	64-bit machines, we can spare any amount of RAM
15:57	jcromartie	and the design is highly shard-able
15:57	jcromartie	so the refs can actually be distributed easily
15:58	jcromartie	the API can transparently map requests
15:58	ordnungswidrig	nice. what is the scope of a ref in your case?
15:58	jcromartie	the current state of an organization's data
15:59	ordnungswidrig	Ah, I thought of clojure refs
15:59	jcromartie	hm?
15:59	jcromartie	what do you mean
15:59	jcromartie	by "ref" I mean a clojure ref
16:00	ordnungswidrig	ok, so a ref contains an orgainsation and everything it points to?
16:00	jcromartie	yes
16:00	duck1123	TimMc: commons.io's FileUtils seems to have everything I need
16:00	jcromartie	one organization <--> one ref
16:00	ordnungswidrig	I see. Do you use event sourcing or something like that?
16:00	jcromartie	that's the idea
16:01	jcromartie	journaled events for each organization
16:01	ordnungswidrig	So an organization is an aggregate root in DDD speach?
16:01	jcromartie	yes
16:01	daniel___	I'm getting this error after pressing \sr to start my repl:
16:01	daniel___	Error detected while processing BufWinEnter Auto commands for "*":
16:01	daniel___	E32: No file name
16:02	jcromartie	the only things outside of organizations are logins and some internal reporting stats
16:03	ordnungswidrig	I'm building a similar system at the moment. Do you use a message bus? I don't care about sharding and distributing at the moment but I like to plan ahead.
16:03	arohner	does lein have a flag that tells maven to "go check all snapshots, even if you already checked today"?
16:03	duck1123	lein pom; mvn dependency:tree -U
16:04	jcromartie	ordnungswidrig: there's nothing actually running distributed right now :)
16:04	amalloy	lein -D fffffuuuuuuuu_maven
16:05	jcromartie	it's very early
16:05	ordnungswidrig	jcromartie: hehe. I thought mirroring the events on multiple hosts, sharded by aggregate root / log. This would give me redundancy on storage and scale on read.
16:05	jcromartie	it would
16:06	jcromartie	you just have to make sure they end up in sync
16:06	jcromartie	but I think maybe we're both getting excited and putting the cart before the horse :P
16:06	jcromartie	1. make it work; 2. make it right; 2. make it fast
16:06	jcromartie	oops
16:06	jcromartie	let's try step 2 now
16:06	jcromartie	1. make it work; 2. make it right; 3. make it fast
16:07	ordnungswidrig	yes, it'd be easier to use cassandra or like that for event storeade.
16:07	ordnungswidrig	storage...
16:07	ordnungswidrig	or whatever you're needs regarding CAP are.
16:07	ordnungswidrig	s/you're/your/ (damn, it's late)
16:10	gtrak	why does this happen?
16:10	gtrak	,1 2 3
16:10	clojurebot	1
16:10	ordnungswidrig	gtrak: nice, in my repl 1 2 3 give me 3
16:11	gtrak	in mine it gave 1\n2\n3\n
16:11	gtrak	in tryclojure, it gives 1
16:12	ordnungswidrig	slime repl in my case
16:12	gtrak	lein repl from windows in mine
16:12	daniel___	I'm getting this error after pressing \sr to start my repl:
16:12	daniel___	Error detected while processing BufWinEnter Auto commands for "*":
16:12	daniel___	E32: No file name
16:12	Raynes	gtrak: tryclojure evaluates the first form it sees.
16:12	daniel___	anyone ever had this?
16:12	Raynes	I think.
16:13	gtrak	Raynes, I'm gusesing lazybot/clojurebot does too?
16:13	Raynes	&1 2 3
16:13	lazybot	⇒ 1
16:13	Raynes	Apparently.
16:15	gtrak	,()()() I was trying this one <--
16:15	clojurebot	()
16:20	daniel___	wow, i fixed my problem
16:20	daniel___	au BufWinEnter . silent loadview
16:20	daniel___	. instead of *
16:20	daniel___	in case anyone comes across it again ^^
16:21	daniel___	can i now select code and run it in the repl, or do i need to write it out again?
16:26	technomancy	arohner: the maven API has a flag which claims to do that.
16:26	technomancy	unfortunately it doesn't.
16:26	arohner	technomancy: really? I thought I just got it to work
16:26	arohner	mvn dependency:resolve -U
16:27	technomancy	arohner: I mean the maven-ant-tasks API that leiningen uses
16:27	arohner	ah. ok
16:27	technomancy	it will probably be fixed in 2.0 with Æther
16:30	cemerick	I should have called pomegranate "f'n aether".
16:31	cemerick	Stupidw
16:31	cemerick	StupidWagonProviderAdapter
16:31	cemerick	that is
16:32	ordnungswidrig	technomancy: as long a you can use them as filenames?!
16:34	chouser	cemerick: yes!
16:35	chouser	compiler error if ambiguous. perfect.
16:35	cemerick	chouser: I wonder if I could reflect my way into modifying the reader so it works without a macro context… :-P
16:36	chouser	heh
16:36	chouser	you know me too well
16:37	amalloy	cemerick: c'mon, just wrap your whole codebase in (with-awesome-hacks ...)
16:38	cemerick	chouser: s'ok, you'll be back at it. The idea will crawl its way up your medulla when you least expect it.
16:38	cemerick	;-)
16:38	chouser	amalloy: I tinkering with a 4clojure problem submission. Because that's more important than finishing data.xml
16:38	ibdknox	lol
16:40	chouser	we really don't have drop-nth?
16:40	devn	,(doc drop-nth)
16:41	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
16:41	devn	chouser: apparently not!
16:42	chouser	(defn drop-nth [i coll] (keep-indexed #(when (not= % i) %2) coll))
16:51	MrMc	How do I read a file line by line I have seen examples with line-seq and what about specifying a format like utf-8
16:55	daniel___	whats the most elegant way of squareing a number?
16:56	daniel___	without writing (* x x)
16:56	daniel___	x in my case is a long statement
16:56	amalloy	um, put it in a let statement? or write a square function, which is effectively the same thing?
16:56	amalloy	ugh, i just said "statement". someone kill me
16:57	amalloy	anyway, of course you can do it with none of these approaches, by manhandling built-in functions until they do what you want, but that's really just a lame way of reinventing a let
16:57	daniel___	hmm (let [x (my 'statement')] (* x x)) ?
16:58	amalloy	right
16:58	daniel___	ok, just checking...there might have been a really clever way
16:58	amalloy	(->> (+ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) (repeat 2) (apply *))
16:58	amalloy	&(->> (+ 1 1 1 1 1 1 1) (repeat 2) (apply *))
16:58	lazybot	⇒ 49
16:58	ibdknox	lol
16:58	amalloy	there are lots of clever ways. they are mostly not good ways
16:59	ibdknox	,(Math/pow (+ 3 3) 2)
16:59	clojurebot	36.0
16:59	brehaut	gentlemen, start your peano numbers
17:00	daniel___	ah, i could use Math/pow, that's shorter/easier than let
17:00	amalloy	hope you don't mind floating-point numbers
17:01	ibdknox	daniel___, ^
17:01	daniel___	well i stick an int in front if need be
17:01	daniel___	i already have a Math/sqrt in there
17:01	brehaut	woo precision
17:02	daniel___	dont need precision
17:02	brehaut	daniel___: in that case, try (def square identity)
17:03	brehaut	it'll be close enough
17:03	brehaut	;)
17:03	amalloy	hah
17:03	amalloy	(def square (constantly 0))
17:03	ibdknox	lol
17:04	amalloy	daniel___: you're aware that int always rounds down, right? "sticking an int in front" doesn't cause actual useful rounding
17:04	ibdknox	all of those physics problems in school would've been so much easier in a world without precision.
17:04	ibdknox	I mean we already didn't have friction
17:04	daniel___	amalloy: thats fine
17:05	daniel___	i think i'm gunna have to scrap this anyway, can't work out a decent way of modifying a string by one character and making sure it's a real character....getting errors when the unicode codepoint reaches -1
17:06	amalloy	have you tried hiredman's suggestion of only working with characters at the beginning/end, and working with a vector of numbers in between? it would make several steps of your algorithm a hundred times easier
17:07	daniel___	amalloy: how would that help if the vector of numbers don't translate to characters
17:07	daniel___	thats the problem im having
17:08	ibdknox	anything that has an invalid char in it dies immediately
17:11	amalloy	daniel___: you also wouldn't have this problem if you stopped trying to get an algorithm you know to be bad to "work" before you "add complexity" by using a decent algorithm. you couldn't get characters so far away from your initial input if you threw away mutations that go in the wrong direction
17:11	daniel___	https://gist.github.com/1279450 - eventually i pass an int to char that it doesn't like (-1 for instance)
17:11	daniel___	amalloy: maybe i need to study my fitness algorithm some more, because i dont understand why it is deviating so much tbh
17:12	amalloy	i told you this weekend, it's because your evolve function allows mutations in the wrong direction to propagate
17:12	amalloy	where's your git repo again?
17:13	daniel___	i don't understand why...im filtering for (<= fitness child parent), a lower fitness being better
17:14	daniel___	https://github.com/danielstockton/evolve/blob/master/src/evolve/core.clj
17:14	daniel___	if i try it in the repl: ((fitness-fn "bob") "bob") = 0 and ((fitness-fn "bob") "jim") = 221
17:15	daniel___	and so on in between...so it appears to work correctly
17:20	amalloy	your fitness function is fine
17:28	jcromartie	lol http://colinm.org/language_checklist.html
17:29	daniel___	does iterate keep pluggin the return value back in each iteration? is that the problem
17:29	ibdknox	hahaha "You have reinvented Brainfuck but non-ironically"
17:30	daniel___	i thought iterate ran the same function over and over
17:30	daniel___	but it uses the return value as the new argument each time?
17:30	amalloy	&(take 10 (iterate inc 1))
17:30	lazybot	⇒ (1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10)
17:31	daniel___	i see
17:31	daniel___	that is the problem then, in this case i dont want iterate
17:32	daniel___	i know amalloy. does repeatedly only work for numbers? evolve.core$mutate cannot be cast to java.lang.Number
17:33	amalloy	its signature is different from iterate
17:33	ordnungswidrig	daniel___: (take-while odd? (repeatedly #(rand-int 10)))
17:33	ibdknox	,(doc repeatedly)
17:33	clojurebot	"([f] [n f]); Takes a function of no args, presumably with side effects, and returns an infinite (or length n if supplied) lazy sequence of calls to it"
17:34	daniel___	hmm i'm passing a function with args
17:35	ordnungswidrig	daniel___: you can either use partial (repeatedly (partial rand-int 10)) or an anonymous function #(rand-int 10) like above
17:36	dafra	in clojurescript, how to read a property of a dom node (textContent, style, etc.) ?
17:38	ibdknox	dafra, you'll need to read up on the google closure library
17:38	ibdknox	dafra, pinot had most of that though
17:38	dafra	ibdknox: i already use it in javascript
17:38	ibdknox	has*
17:38	ibdknox	https://github.com/ibdknox/pinot/blob/master/src/pinot/dom.cljs
17:39	daniel___	danke schoen ordnungswidrig
17:41	daniel___	jetzt funktioniert es wie ich wollte
17:42	daniel___	can i use an 'or' in my filter function? i need it to stop repeating if (= 0 (fitness %))
17:42	ibdknox	lol sind Sie Deutsch?
17:42	daniel___	nein aber ich spreche gerne Deutsch
17:43	dafra	ibdknox: looks like (. node property) works fine
17:43	amalloy	as would (.property node)
17:43	daniel___	I am from Burkina Faso
17:43	ibdknox	dafra, yep, the only problem is crossbrowser differences
17:43	ibdknox	I see
17:43	dafra	ibdknox: just like you showed me (.body js/document) yestaerday
17:44	ibdknox	Ich hab's bei der Uni studiert
17:44	dafra	ibdknox: some properties are best accessed throuh goog.dom, for sure
17:44	daniel___	Ich auch
17:46	etosch	has anyone noticed an issue with lein run binding standard error to standard out?
17:47	technomancy	etosch: which version?
17:47	daniel___	(filter (or #(< % 5) #(= % 8)) (iterate int 1))
17:47	etosch	1.6.1.1
17:47	daniel___	,(filter (or #(< % 5) #(= % 8)) (iterate int 1))
17:48	clojurebot	(1 1 1 1 1 ...)
17:48	daniel___	oops
17:48	daniel___	,(filter (or #(< % 5) #(= % 8)) (iterate inc 1))
17:48	technomancy	etosch: that may be outside lein's control due to the JVM's crappy unix support. you could try "lein trampoline run [...]"
17:48	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:48	daniel___	erm?
17:48	ibdknox	,(take 10 (filter (or #(< % 5) #(= % 8)) (iterate inc 1)))
17:48	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:49	ibdknox	oh wow
17:49	ibdknox	I should've read the code
17:49	etosch	technomancy: ick. It's still binding out to err
17:49	ibdknox	lol
17:49	ordnungswidrig	,(take 10 (filter #(or irc://chat.eu.freenode.net:6667/#(%3C % 5) irc://chat.eu.freenode.net:6667/#(= % 8)) (iterate inc 1)))
17:49	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.NumberFormatException: Invalid number: 3C >
17:49	ibdknox	,(take 10 (filter #(or (< % 5) (= % 8)) (iterate inc 1)))
17:49	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:51	etosch	technomancy: rather, it's still doing something I don't expect; I'll have to do a few more tests first
17:51	ordnungswidrig	&(take 10 (filter irc://chat.eu.freenode.net:6667/#(or (< % 5) (= % 8)) (iterate inc 1)))
17:51	lazybot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: irc://chat.eu.freenode.net:6667
17:51	ordnungswidrig	???
17:51	lazybot	ordnungswidrig: How could that be wrong?
17:51	ibdknox	,lol
17:51	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: lol in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
17:51	daniel___	,(filter #(or (< % 5) (= % 8)) (iterate inc 1))
17:51	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:52	daniel___	now i see why you're adding take 10
17:52	dafra	in cljs, how to require objects (not modules) like goog.debug.Logger ? to call getLogger*
17:52	ibdknox	hah
17:52	daniel___	,(take 10 (filter #(or (< % 5) (= % 8)) (iterate inc 1)))
17:52	ibdknox	it goes forever
17:52	daniel___	yeah :/
17:52	ibdknox	because there aren't 10 values that fit that
17:52	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
17:52	ibdknox	so it continues looking
17:52	ordnungswidrig	ibdknox: bingo
17:52	ibdknox	daniel___, what is it you actually want to do?
17:53	daniel___	well there should be only 5 values that fit that...but i imagine it keeps looking anyway just in case? :/
17:53	daniel___	a filter with an or
17:53	ibdknox	no
17:53	ibdknox	that's a solution, not a problem :)
17:53	daniel___	https://github.com/danielstockton/evolve/blob/master/src/evolve/core.clj line 21/22
17:53	ibdknox	a filter with an or will work over a finite set
17:54	daniel___	once fitness reaches 0 the iterate (actually, its now repeatedly) runs forever
17:54	ibdknox	so you want an and
17:54	daniel___	ok, (and (blah) (!= % 0))
17:54	ibdknox	you want all values where the fitness is <= and > 0
17:55	daniel___	no, i want to include = 0
17:55	daniel___	wait
17:55	ibdknox	but you want to stop once it reaches there?
17:55	daniel___	what do i want? lol
17:56	daniel___	yeah, stop once it reaches 0
17:56	ibdknox	,(doc take-while)
17:56	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of successive items from coll while (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
17:59	daniel___	this is what i thought i wanted https://github.com/danielstockton/evolve/blob/master/src/evolve/core.clj
17:59	daniel___	anyway, its been a relatively production evening, now 1am
17:59	daniel___	gotta get some sleep
18:00	daniel___	,(println "night world")
18:00	clojurebot	night world
18:01	ordnungswidrig	good night
18:08	dafra	how to require an object like goog.debug.Logger ?
18:10	etosch	so what is the best way of capturing standard error to redirect into a file?
18:10	etosch	i can use java calls and make normal java errors redirect properly
18:10	etosch	but when I rebind out to err locally, I lose information
18:11	cgray	I'm having trouble upgrading my slime setup. I installed clojure-mode and have been trying to use clojure-jack-in, but I get "error in process filter: Symbol's value as variable is void: Warning:"
18:11	etosch	for example, I have some test code (binding [err out] (print 'test') (/ 9 0))
18:11	etosch	and I run it using the direct java call
18:11	etosch	where I redirect stdout to filename out and stderr to filename err
18:12	etosch	but out has 'test in it and the java error is lost
18:13	etosch	If I run the script without the binding call, 'test gets printed to out and the divide by zero error gets printed to err
18:13	etosch	so what is the proper way of locally binding data from standard out to standard error
18:14	ordnungswidrig	If it's java code that uses stdout, then you'll need to use System.setStdOut / System.setStdErr
18:18	etosch	it's clojure code, but I'm running it with the java call, rather than the lein call
18:18	ordnungswidrig	hmm, then (binding [err out] …) should be ok
18:19	ordnungswidrig	but if you mean the exception, this is printed by a java handler I think.
18:20	etosch	that's still printing to stdout
18:20	ordnungswidrig	in any case it's caught outside you (binding …) form, and I think Exception.printStackTrace() will be called — which Java and does not know of out and err
18:21	ordnungswidrig	I'd suggest catching the Exceptions inside the binding and the stacktrace from clojure.
18:21	etosch	I want to bind some data to err and then in my shell script redirect
18:21	etosch	I don't care so much about the proper errors; I just threw one in there to see if I couldn't figure out what's happening to it
18:22	ordnungswidrig	so try if (binding … (.write err "goes to err")) works.
18:25	ordnungswidrig	good night, everyone.
18:26	etosch	got it
18:30	ghiu	l
18:31	ghiu	i know that it's behind the dynamic nature of clojure, but is there a way to accept only a specific type as a function parameter?
18:32	cgray	when i do a C-x C-e on a form with a swank server started by "lein swank", the swank server crashes with "exception in read loop". does anyone know of a workaround for that?
18:32	aaelony	select-keys grabs the keys/vals I want but doesn't preserve the order in which I asked for them. I checked the source and tweaked it to do this, but is there a ready made function that already does this?
18:33	ibdknox	aaelony, the order?
18:33	aaelony	yes, for example: (select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:b :c])
18:33	aaelony	I wanted to see :b then :c
18:34	aaelony	instead of {:c 3, :b 2}
18:34	ibdknox	maps don't guarantee order
18:34	aaelony	exactly
18:34	aaelony	I cahnged it to a vector
18:34	aaelony	but wondered if there is already a function out there
18:34	ibdknox	ah
18:35	brehaut	what about using a sorted map?
18:35	aaelony	is there a select-keys that returns a sorted map?
18:35	brehaut	,(select-keys (sorted-map :a 1 :b 2 :c 3) [:b :c])
18:35	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2}
18:35	brehaut	hmm
18:36	aaelony	that wouldn't preserve the order
18:36	ibdknox	lol
18:36	ibdknox	you shouldn't be using a map if the order matters was my main point
18:36	ibdknox	buuut
18:36	brehaut	im a little surprised; i would have thought it would maintain the map type
18:36	aaelony	I'm not using the map, it is select-keys that returns it
18:37	ibdknox	so you just want values?
18:37	aaelony	that would work too
18:37	brehaut	ibdknox: sorted and ordered maps are useful in rare situations
18:37	ibdknox	brehaut, I agree, but not in this one :)
18:38	aaelony	basically, I want to ask for specific keys from a map and I am looking for the output to be the way I asked for it to be.
18:38	ibdknox	,(map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:b :c] )
18:38	clojurebot	(2 3)
18:38	aaelony	I tweaked the select-keys function, but thought there might exist something that does this too
18:38	ibdknox	aaelony, ^
18:39	aaelony	ibdknox: that would work too
18:39	aaelony	but wasn't what I was asking... :)
18:40	amalloy	it's really the only solution that's correct, though
18:40	amalloy	if you want something that has ordering, then you don't want a map
18:40	ibdknox	:)
18:40	amalloy	ibdknox's solution gives you exactly what you wanted: a sequence in the order you asked for
18:41	aaelony	right, I want a select-keys function that returns the order of the keys a request
18:41	aaelony	its easy to write, I just thought I'd ask
18:41	amalloy	aaelony: what do you find unsatisfying about the solution using map?
18:42	ibdknox	you have the keys
18:42	aaelony	I need the output in exactly the order I ask for...
18:42	amalloy	it is!
18:42	ibdknox	lol
18:42	aaelony	:)
18:42	ibdknox	it's in the exact order
18:42	aaelony	I am not arguing
18:42	brehaut	it even works if the keys have no sensible ordering
18:42	srid	best way to create an one-off function that returns a hash-map? (to be used in (map ..) )
18:42	srid	( #(assoc {} :key "val") )
18:42	srid	?
18:43	ibdknox	,(let [my-order [:b :c] (map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} my-order))
18:43	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.RuntimeException: Unmatched delimiter: )>
18:43	ibdknox	,(let [my-order [:b :c]] (map {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} my-order))
18:43	clojurebot	(2 3)
18:43	bsteuber	srid: (constantly {:key val})
18:43	srid	I mean, create a map
18:43	ibdknox	,(doc hash-map)
18:43	clojurebot	"([] [& keyvals]); keyval => key val Returns a new hash map with supplied mappings."
18:43	srid	val will differ based on what is passed to the function
18:43	ibdknox	,(hash-map)
18:43	clojurebot	{}
18:43	brehaut	srid: (partial hash-map key)
18:43	srid	more like: ( #(assoc {} :key %) )
18:44	brehaut	err (partial hash-map :key)
18:44	amalloy	or (fn [v] {:key v})
18:44	amalloy	which seems simplest to me
18:44	srid	ok, hash-map is good enough.
18:44	ibdknox	or #(hash-map :key %)
18:44	ibdknox	or
18:44	ibdknox	lol
18:44	srid	,(map #(hash-map :key %) (range 5))
18:44	clojurebot	({:key 0} {:key 1} {:key 2} {:key 3} {:key 4})
18:44	brehaut	or #(-> {:key %})
18:44	ibdknox	sounds like a (for) waiting to happen
18:45	amalloy	haha (dec brehaut) that's horrible
18:45	ibdknox	amalloy, I figured you'd be all over that :p
18:45	brehaut	amalloy: thats from the joy of clojure, so blame fogus and chouser :P
18:45	ibdknox	srid: consider using for, it's probably cleaner
18:45	ibdknox	(for [x (range 5)] {:key x})
18:45	srid	ibdknox: yup
18:50	srid	https://gist.github.com/1279714 <- is there a better way to write the (loop ... (recur ...)) pattern in this code?
18:50	amalloy	srid: this looks like a reduce
18:51	srid	fyi, "running-hosts" is an agent of hash-map of hostname -> a lazy-seq that represen\ts "tail -f /some/log/file" on that host
18:51	srid	(the code has a bug in that old hosts are not removed)
18:51	srid	amalloy: interesting
18:52	srid	reduce is one of those functions I tend to avoid subconsciously
18:52	ibdknox	you shouldn't :)
18:52	amalloy	you're reducing hosts into newhosts, right?
18:52	amalloy	and sending to an agent as a side effect
18:52	srid	yes, but more like, reducing hosts and newhosts into (another state of) newhosts
18:53	amalloy	mmmmnope, not really. you're reducing hosts with an initial value of newhosts
18:54	srid	i was confused. i take "hosts" and update the agent by adding hosts that are only in 'hosts' to the agent.
18:54	srid	reduce will work, let me think
18:57	sjl	I don't suppose anyone knows a version of lein-marginalia that will parse docstrings, as well as comments inside functions?
18:57	sjl	I really want to use it, but I don't have time to dive in and fix that myself...
19:00	srid	reduce does simplify it https://gist.github.com/1279714#gistcomment-55857
19:35	jcromartie	I'm really seeing the benefits of deferring changes as late as possible
19:35	jcromartie	i.e. functional programming in the small-to-medium
19:38	jcromartie	also a cool bonus feature: I can make a "test mode" by very cheaply "pushing" the state of the system into a user's session
19:38	jcromartie	so you can use the system as if it were fully functional, but not make any permanent changes
19:51	archaic	any ideas how to (set! print-length 25) automatically when I start repl using clojure-jack-in?
20:39	todun	new to clojure. trying to get clojure up and running in terminal, does any know of a good(easy) tutorial or steps to do this? thanks.
20:39	brehaut	todun: have you got leiningen?
20:39	ibdknox	todun, https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
20:40	todun	brehaut: what's that? let me google..
20:40	brehaut	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
20:40	ibdknox	:p
20:40	todun	brehaut: ibdknox looking at it now. thanks.
20:40	brehaut	todun: see also: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started
20:42	technomancy	http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+for+Beginners might be better
20:45	todun	technomancy: looking at that now. thanks.
20:46	todun	are there any places to find a repo of clojure solutions of concurrency problems(jumping in the deep end i know)?
20:48	technomancy	nah, concurrency's easy.
20:48	technomancy	the solution to concurrency problems usually revolves around a correct understanding of state and identity: http://clojure.org/state
20:49	technomancy	there's no cookbook for "you're having this problem; here's a a problem to apply", it's more "design it right up-front and concurrency isn't very difficult"
20:49	technomancy	*pattern to apply
20:50	todun	technomancy: what else should I know? Also, where do I learn to design right by concurrency?
20:50	todun	at least clojure style?
20:51	technomancy	the state url above is the best place to start
20:52	todun	technomancy: ok. thanks.
20:54	todun	technomancy: I'm following the emacs setup here and it seems to suggest that I have to ditch my current installation of emacs if I have one(yes). Is this necessary?
20:57	technomancy	todun: not at all
20:57	technomancy	you may have trouble if it's currently configured to connect to common lisp using slime, but that's the only conflict. just install clojure-mode and swank-clojure, and do M-x clojure-jack-in
20:58	todun	technomancy: maybe I'm misunderstanding the directions there then.
20:58	technomancy	maybe the directions are wrong... let me see =)
20:58	todun	do I have to always run clojure mode with M-x?
20:59	technomancy	no, clojure-mode will activate automatically when it's installed
20:59	technomancy	M-x clojure-jack-in is to start a repl session
20:59	todun	technomancy: they're probably right
20:59	technomancy	I don't see anything in the directions that indicate needing to throw away your current setup
21:00	todun	technomancy: ok.
21:00	technomancy	unless you use aquamacs or xemacs or some other fork
21:01	todun	technomancy: just emacs that comes with terminal
21:02	brehaut	lets be honest, those apps are more like sporks than forks
21:02	technomancy	I have no idea what that means, but I like it.
21:02	brehaut	todun, thats possibly a very old version of emacs
21:02	todun	technomancy: what goodies does the emacs starter-kit give that the default osx emacs doesn't have?
21:03	todun	brehaut: do you recommend I get the emacs starter kit then?
21:03	brehaut	todun: OS X lion appears to have emacs 22.1.1 ?
21:03	brehaut	todun: emacsformacosx.com/ and the starter kit
21:03	todun	brehaut: not on lion yet, sadly.
21:03	technomancy	todun: hard to explain succinctly, I'd recommend just going with clojure-mode for now since you can waste a lot of time on your elisp without getting anywhere on clojure.
21:03	technomancy	brehaut: eep
21:04	brehaut	technomancy: really?
21:04	technomancy	that's practically antediluvian
21:04	brehaut	oh right, the emacs version
21:04	brehaut	yeah. breaks horribly with the starter kit too
21:04	technomancy	brehaut: well, assuming he's already got an emacs config
21:05	brehaut	todun: the app that you get from emacsforosx has the terminal version in Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs and if you flick it the -nw flag it runs as a terminal app. (i aliased it in my .profile)
21:06	todun	brehaut: checking it out now.
21:06	todun	technomancy: emacs config?
21:07	brehaut	todun: just a warning, i hate emacs so take everything i say with a grain of salt
21:08	technomancy	todun: I mean if you haven't used emacs before you probably want the starter kit because the defaults are terrible. if you have an existing setup then I assume you're comfortable enough with it that you should just go with what you know.
21:09	technomancy	oh, maybe I misread your original question; you're talking about the version you have installed rather than emacs config you have already set up?
21:09	todun	brehaut: ok.
21:10	todun	technomancy: I was wondering what you meant by emacs config.
21:10	todun	if you were referring to .emacs
21:11	technomancy	yeah, I just misunderstood what you were asking
21:11	todun	technomancy: np
21:12	technomancy	22 is pretty old (circa 07 maybe?); I would recommend upgrading
21:12	technomancy	the 24 pretests on http://emacsformacosx.com/builds have been very stable
21:12	todun	brehaut: so in a sense this emacsformacs is just like a text-editor but with emacs mode...
21:12	technomancy	in fact, I've been running 24 since 23 was released, and it's never crashed, while 23 has actually crashed for me a few times.
21:13	todun	brehaut: making an alias for it is what you suggest or that those commands will make the cli emacs open this emacsformacs?
21:13	brehaut	todun: re alias, correct
21:14	brehaut	todun: in every way it is a proper build of emacs, rather than a spork
21:14	todun	brehaut: ok.thanks. spokr?
21:14	todun	*spork?
21:14	brehaut	so calling it a text editor under sells it a little
21:15	brehaut	sporks are half way between a spoon and a fork
21:15	todun	technomancy: ok. I'll try that.
21:15	technomancy	24 has the package manager built-in, so there's a bit less hassle there
21:15	brehaut	aquamacs is halfway between emacs and a mac native application
21:16	todun	technomancy: gotten it. thanks. so does this already have clojure mode?
21:17	brehaut	todun: i have alias "emacs=/Applications/Emacs.app/Contents/MacOS/Emacs -nw" in my ~/.profile which means 'emacs' opens a new editor, and 'open -a emacs' opens the app version
21:17	todun	brehaut: which is better?
21:18	todun	brehaut: for you at least?
21:18	brehaut	todun: it depends
21:18	brehaut	if you use the app, you can use the mouse to flail around if you cant remember a key chord
21:18	brehaut	but everything opened with the app exists within one process; its a bit harder to hive off projects
21:19	brehaut	the app also lets you set readable fonts differently from your terminals
21:19	todun	hive?
21:20	brehaut	i cant explain it any better :/
21:20	todun	brehaut: ok. thanks for the tips all the same.
21:20	brehaut	no problem, just remember my caveat
21:20	todun	brehaut: you never mentioned why you hated it.
21:21	brehaut	i hate all text editors
21:21	brehaut	oh, terminal emacs in lion means you can take advantage of full screen terminal to get a tiling window manager for your emacs windows (and shells and repls)
21:21	todun	brehaut: I'm not sure what that means but it sounds cool.
21:23	brehaut	http://haskell.org/haskellwiki/Xmonad/Screenshots#Tiled_layouts
21:24	todun	brehaut: ok. thanks.
21:26	jcromartie	how is Java/Clojure on Lion?
21:26	brehaut	fine?
21:26	jcromartie	I assumed as much
21:26	jcromartie	but I wasn't sure if there were any weird issues
21:26	technomancy	todun: the package manager in emacs 24 lets you easily pull from marmalade, the community package repository, which has clojure-mode
21:26	brehaut	not that ive encountered
21:27	technomancy	but it's not configured as a source out of the box
21:27	todun	technomancy: after getting emacsformacs, I try M-x clojure-mode don't find it
21:27	brehaut	jcromartie: it might be more annoying for java programmers than clojure programmers; its 1.6.0 rather than 1.7
21:27	technomancy	todun: right, you can either add marmalade as a package source and install from there, or just get clojure-mode from github.
21:28	jcromartie	brehaut: I'm an OS X user and what is Java 1.7? :)
21:28	technomancy	https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/
21:28	jcromartie	:P
21:29	todun	technomancy: ok. I'll try that.
21:30	todun	technomancy: so at the repl, all I have to do is add to ~/.emacs.d/init.el ?
21:32	technomancy	clojure-mode gets you syntax highlighting, indentation, etc., and allows you to start a repl session with swank-clojure
21:32	technomancy	but that requires leiningen: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure
21:34	todun	technomancy: so leinnigen first?
21:34	technomancy	yeah, you can spend hours on the elisp rabbit trail and not really learn anything
21:35	technomancy	leiningen will get you straight to writing clojure
21:35	todun	technomancy: back to the beginning of our convo with brehaut
21:35	todun	:)
21:35	technomancy	zactly
21:36	todun	technomancy: it says download the script. it is named lein. what is it's extension?
21:40	amalloy	nil? it has no extension
21:41	amalloy	if you read the first line it probably says something like #!/bin/bash, which probably answers the question you actually meant to ask?
21:42	amalloy	jcromartie: i've heard you can run into trouble trying to run the Lion JVM in 64-bit mode
21:42	jcromartie	interesting
21:43	jcromartie	I thought Java defaulted to 64-bit, though
21:43	amalloy	clojurebot: spork is <reply> <brehaut> sporks are half way between a spoon and a forkf
21:43	clojurebot	Ik begrijp
21:43	jcromartie	what does "java -version" say?
21:43	amalloy	dang it. stupid typo
21:43	jcromartie	mine (Snow Leopard) says Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 20.1-b02-384, mixed mode)
21:55	todun	technomancy: when it says place it on your path in the leiningen install directives, doesi t mean put it in say your home dir?
21:56	todun	technomancy: if so can I change the name of the file to .lein ?
22:00	amalloy	todun: to your second question: you can do whatever you want, but you're unlikely to be happy with the results of doing that. to your first: it's common to have a directory named bin in your home, which is on your PATH
22:00	amalloy	then you can just dump lein in there, and tada
22:01	todun	amalloy: oh ok. I don't have one. is creating it ok on osx?
22:01	amalloy	sure, go for it
22:01	todun	amalloy: thanks.
22:02	amalloy	you have to actually add it to your PATH, eg by editing your ~/.profile - it doesn't just magically get there.
22:02	todun	amalloy: for ~/bin or for lein ?
22:03	amalloy	for ~/bin, if i understand your question
22:08	todun	amalloy: so something like this?
22:08	todun	export BIN_HOME=~/bin
22:08	todun	export PATH=$BIN_HOME/:$PATH
22:09	amalloy	sure
22:17	todun	amalloy: by the way, what does putting it in my path do?
22:17	todun	ie. putting bin in my path.
22:18	todun	technomancy: I've done the step 1 of leiningen, for step 2 it says Place it on your path and chmod it to be executable. how so?
22:19	todun	do I chmod `/bin/lein at the repl?
22:19	todun	* chmod ~/bin/lein
22:22	amalloy	todun: chmod +x ~/bin/lein
22:23	amalloy	anyway, putting it in your path means that when you type lein (or any command) in the shell, your OS will look in ~/bin to see if a command with that name is there, and run it if so
22:28	todun	amalloy: thanks. trying that now.
22:29	todun	amalloy: by the way, is lein like sbt?
22:29	amalloy	$google sbt
22:29	lazybot	[SBT Homepage] http://www.statebankoftravancore.com/
22:29	amalloy	well, it's not like that sbt, and i don't know any others
22:30	todun	amalloy: Simple Build Tools
22:30	amalloy	shrug
22:30	todun	amalloy: ok. at the repl, I've simply typed lein
22:30	todun	amalloy: it downloaded a bunch of stuff.
22:30	amalloy	cool beans
22:31	amalloy	try lein repl
22:31	todun	amalloy: I'm not sure about lein but I was hoping to get the emacs-mode for clojure.
22:31	todun	do I now do the swank?
22:32	todun	at https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/ , it says to update package.el
22:33	todun	but then it says to ;; add to ~/.emacs.d/init.el if you aren't already using Marmalade.
22:33	amalloy	meh. talk to technomancy about that, not me. my emacs setup is old and crusty, and not really recommended
22:33	todun	amalloy: ok. thanks though.
22:33	amalloy	todun: does lein repl work?
22:34	todun	technomancy: having lein, how to I follow steps at clojure-mode to make my emacs have clojure-mode?
22:34	todun	amalloy: do you mean does typing lein in the repl do anything?
22:34	amalloy	no, typing lein repl into your shell
22:34	todun	amalloy: typing lein in the repl did soome download
22:34	todun	lein repl ?
22:35	amalloy	indeed
22:35	amalloy	lein is, in some ways, like make, or git: a main command with subcommands
22:35	todun	amalloy: I get a user=> prompt
22:35	amalloy	there you go, you're coding clojure, hooray
22:35	todun	oh
22:35	todun	so lein is the clojure erpl?
22:35	todun	*repl
22:35	amalloy	no
22:36	todun	why call it lein?
22:36	scottj	read the lein readme
22:36	amalloy	but lein[ingen] is a convenient way to manage clojure environments, including getting a repl
22:37	todun	scottj: the readme is flying over my head.
22:37	todun	amalloy: ok. does that mean that lein[...] is like an environment for development clojure?
22:37	scottj	todun: ok well it explains the name. basically lein managed dependencies for your projects and has many features including loading a repl up for a project
22:38	amalloy	i guess? maybe? it's not really very clear how to answer the question :P
22:39	seancorfield	todun: what languages have you worked with before? (sorry if you already said - i only just signed on) maybe we can figure out what lein is "like" in your experience...
22:40	todun	scottj: so this repl will treat your project as packages to its namespace?
22:40	todun	amalloy: ok. thanks all the same.
22:41	scottj	if you're inside a project when you do lein repl it will have your dependencies that are listed in project.clj on the classpath and you'll be able to reload/use them
22:41	todun	seancorfield: uhm..lets go with scala since it too is pseudo-functional. but I'm just familiar with it
22:41	scottj	if you're not in a project when you do lein repl it just gives you a clojure repl without (generally) any other libraries
22:42	scottj	todun: sbt I think is similar
22:42	seancorfield	todun: did you use a build tool with scala? maven? sbt?
22:42	todun	scottj: I suspected.
22:42	duck1123	If you use Ruby, it's like using RVM with bundler
22:43	todun	seancorfield: I used sbt. but didn't understand many things about it expect that it was used to build the project.
22:43	todun	duck1123: that's news to me. but I'll check it out. thanks.
22:44	todun	so it's a bad idea to make lein repl have an alias of clojure ?
22:44	todun	meaning, is there a clojure repl out there I can independently install?
22:44	brehaut	amalloy_: "my emacs setup is old and crusty" thats basicly the definition of emacs isnt it?
22:45	duck1123	It's usually best to always have a project, even if you have a project only for random repl use
22:45	seancorfield	todun: the clojure libraries include a bare bones REPL - see http://clojure.org/getting_started
22:45	seancorfield	lein repl wraps that and takes care of library dependencies and the java classpath
22:45	scottj	todun: about 10 minutes after you get a bare clojure repl running you're going to realize you want a feature that lein provides so just use it :)
22:45	brehaut	todun: clojure has a curiously equal relationship with the rest of the language ecosystem; its less of a thing above all others
22:48	todun	scottj: so it's just best to make my clojure alias lein repl then, it will safe a newbie like moi allot of headache...
22:48	todun	brehaut: I don't follow.
22:48	brehaut	todun: thats because i failed at english
22:48	todun	seancorfield: ok. thanks.
22:48	scottj	todun: are you talking about a shell alias clojure="lein repl"?
22:48	duck1123	todun: just learn to love lein and all the subcommands. You'll be happier
22:48	todun	duck1123: having a project?
22:49	brehaut	todun: clojure is a library not a 'full' enviroment like you might expect with other languages
22:49	brehaut	todun: lein fills the common enviromental roles
22:49	todun	brehaut: yes, I saw that in the docs.
22:49	duck1123	todun: create a project where you can set up the dependencies you want and always cd to that dir before you start a repl
22:49	seancorfield	yup, you could add clojure to a scala project just by adding the clojure.jar file to the classpath
22:49	todun	brehaut: that's why I can get clooj.jar, right?
22:49	brehaut	i have no idea what clooj is
22:50	brehaut	but i guess so
22:50	duck1123	clooj is an ide in clojure
22:50	seancorfield	and then in scala you could do new clojure.lang.RT and have access to the clojure runtime inside scala :)
22:50	duck1123	it's neat, but no emacs
22:51	todun	seancorfield: that's interesting. sounds like a though install for me though.
22:51	brehaut	todun: the thing with aliasing lein repl to clojure is that its not just clojure, its lein and it reacts differently in the presence of a project frinstance
22:51	todun	brehaut: ok. how so?
22:51	brehaut	well if you are ina project, the repl will have the dependancies and verson of clojure that the project requests
22:52	brehaut	whereas if you are out of a project its just going to have clojure and whatever lein wants it to have
22:52	duck1123	when you're in a project directory, lein repl runs with the declared version and dependencies
22:52	seancorfield	that means you can have one project that uses clojure 1.2.1 and another project that uses clojure 1.3.0 and lein automatically manages the libraries etc
22:52	brehaut	todun: clojure and clojure deps is not installed system wide, but are managed per project by lein
22:53	todun	so if I am in ~/proj1 , I will launch lein repl then test my first_app.clj there?
22:54	todun	and have all the dependencies I need.
22:54	duck1123	if you do: lein new proj1 it'll set up everything for you
22:55	todun	brb. changing internet locations...
23:04	todun	duck1123: ok I'll try that. thanks.
23:04	todun	hope I didn't miss anything.
23:04	todun	last I got was duck1123 suggestion
23:09	amalloy	todun: http://www.raynes.me/logs/irc.freenode.net/clojure/2011-10-11.txt
23:10	todun	amalloy: thanks. I didn't know that was avialbale.
23:10	todun	*available.
23:10	amalloy	there are a number of public logs of this channel; that's one
23:11	todun	amalloy: where is the list?
23:12	brehaut	huh the zsh autocomplete for lein is pretty cool
23:13	amalloy	i can't imagine why anyone would bother to publish a list of the different logs of #clojure
23:13	ibdknox	for fame, of course
23:13	clojurebot	then its perfect. but of course, there are a lot of other parts too that changes. so after I make assoc :show, is there a problem I make again (def data (assoc data :list ...)
23:14	ibdknox	very relevant clojurebot.
23:14	amalloy	clojurebot: ?
23:14	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: [Ljava.lang.Object; cannot be cast to [Ljava.lang.String;>
23:14	ibdknox	lol
23:14	amalloy	sensible
23:17	todun	trying to follow https://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/ do I put package.el in bin too?
23:17	todun	or add to ~/.emacs.d/init.el ?
23:21	brehaut	emacs packages are managed inside emacs
23:22	brehaut	M-x package-install starter-kit-lisp should get you there?
23:22	srid	that requires emacs 24 though
23:22	brehaut	ah yes it does
23:22	srid	but I agree that starter-kit is the easiest route
23:22	srid	starter-kit v2
23:28	todun	brehaut: ok will try
23:28	todun	srid: I got that by technomancy suggestion
23:28	srid	technomancy wrote starter-kit as well
23:28	todun	brehaut: srid so I should use emacs 24 or starter-kit v2?
23:29	srid	todun: yes
23:29	srid	and, not or.
23:29	brehaut	both :)
23:29	todun	srid: ok. let me look into starter-kit.
23:30	srid	starter-kit keeps ~/.emacs from getting dirty
23:30	todun	srid: actually, I downloaded stater-kit if I'm reading this right...https://github.com/technomancy/emacs-starter-kit
23:31	todun	I went to http://emacsformacosx.com/builds and got 24
23:35	todun	brehaut: trying M-x, then package-install, then starter-kit-lisp doesn't work for me.
23:35	todun	it says no matcg
23:35	todun	*match
23:35	brehaut	im not an emacs expert sorry
23:36	brehaut	i just followed the instructions o nthe starter kit page
23:36	todun	brehaut: oh ok. thanks all the same.
23:36	amalloy	probably package-refresh-packages or something
23:37	todun	amalloy: ok. let me try that.
23:38	todun	amalloy: I do M-x, package-refreshcontents is all that shows up. should I use that instead?
23:39	amalloy	see "or something". that's as promising-sounding as anything else
23:42	todun	amalloy: in emacs or in the readme for emacs-starter-kit?
23:42	amalloy	huh?
23:42	todun	amalloy: you said see "or something"
23:43	amalloy	<amalloy> probably package-refresh-packages or something
23:44	todun	amalloy: oh ok. thanks. I'm trying package-refresh-contents
23:45	todun	brehaut: what else did you do when you followed the readme for emacs-starter-kit?
23:45	brehaut	nothing
23:46	brehaut	it worked fine for me
23:46	srid	did you add the marmalade repo as per README?
23:46	brehaut	i guess so
23:46	brehaut	i just did what it said
23:47	brehaut	oh, your probably talking to todun, my bad
23:48	todun	srid: that is what was confusing
23:48	todun	srid: I assumed brehaut was indicating that step by his instructions.
23:48	srid	add init.el and restart emacs
23:48	srid	add to*
23:49	todun	srid: init.el does not exist for me in ~/.emacs.d/init.el
23:49	srid	create?
23:49	todun	do I put package.el into init.el?
23:50	srid	package.el? emacs 24 includes package.el.
23:50	srid	todun: get the 'pretest' build from http://emacsformacosx.com/builds
23:51	brehaut	todun: indeed, but you need to require it
23:51	srid	or 'nightly'