#clojure – 2011-08-09

2011-08-09

01:08	bogner	Anyone know whether http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Android+Support is up to date?
01:13	hiredman	bogner: the status of android support isn't very fast changing, so it seems likely to be up to date
01:14	bogner	hiredman: Fair enough. Is there anywhere I should go/anyone I should talk to if I'm interested in trying to help?
01:14	hiredman	mailing list I guess, dunno
01:14	bogner	Cool.
01:14	hiredman	you have a ca?
01:15	bogner	define ca
01:15	hiredman	~ca
01:15	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
01:15	hiredman	a decent first step, kind of a pain
01:15	bogner	No, haven't forayed into hacking on clojure yet.
01:16	bogner	Thanks.
01:44	amac	is there a symbol that lets anonymous fns catch variadic args?
01:45	amac	along the lines of &%
01:47	amalloy	amac: good guess
01:47	amalloy	%&
01:47	amac	err, scratch that, will just use fn instead of #(
01:47	amac	oh, really?
01:47	amac	handy
01:48	amalloy	that said, i use fn instead. i don't think i've ever actually used %&
01:49	kencausey	yeah one would think rest args are going to require a bit more than a line of code or two, unless the are simply passed onto another function as is I guess
01:50	amac	they're being dumped into a partial fn so don't really need to be named
01:51	amac	I'd rather save 5 keystrokes than have maintainable code! /s
02:22	thorwil	in dnolen's announcement, i read "mad patterns" at first 0.o
02:24	depy	what's a "mad patterns" ?
02:25	leonid	patterns that are mad
02:25	depy	O_ô
03:07	depy	Any1 has link to dnolens tweeter? Somebody said he tweeted about some interesting pattern matching?
03:07	amalloy	@swannodette
03:40	ejackson	morning good people
03:51	depy	morning
03:52	amac	4am here, why can't I sleep like normal people :(
03:52	ejackson	i think that may be locally normal
03:53	amac	true.
03:53	amac	its the others that are weird, not us.
03:53	depy	10am here... At work already.. :/
03:53	ejackson	9 here, work is at home :)
03:53	depy	lucky u :)
03:53	amac	are you in the UK by any chance?
03:54	depy	Slovenia actually
03:54	amac	ah, probably for the best -- I was wondering what the status of the riots in London were.
03:55	depy	I'm really frustrated... :/ I hate when people take some open source solution and think that they have a golden hammer that can solve everything...
03:58	ejackson	amac: yup
03:59	ejackson	but not in London, happily.
04:02	amac	sadly, reporting on european issues is spotty over here (Canada)
04:03	ejackson	its spotty here too... nobody seems to be owning up to the reason for these riots.
04:12	depy	What was the reason for these riots? O_ô
04:15	amac	someone got shot by the police, but the details on it are fuzzy
04:16	depy	I see. I'm reading about it but there nothign concrete on it ye...
04:20	ejackson	yup, if the Met has managed to kill yet another innocent dude its going to be ugly
05:04	fhd	Is anybody using a mocking framework? If so, which one?
05:04	fhd	Couldn't find much. Midje looks like a test framework + mocking framework, but I'm quite happy with clojure.test and a bit reluctant about switching.
05:07	clgv	fhd: what do you want to mock? functions only?
05:10	fhd	clgv: Mocking java objects would be cool, too
05:11	fhd	clgv: Something like Mockito for Java (mocking and stubbing etc.)
05:11	clgv	fhd: for functions have a look at this macro: https://github.com/joyofclojure/book-source/blob/e9f8e99b76e575371c1e927eb22840f258e54783/src/joy/misc.clj#L146
05:51	robonobo	hi
05:51	robonobo	is there a Right Way to add local jars to a leiningen project?
05:51	robonobo	i've copied two into libs, but lein doesn't seem to pick them up
05:52	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: I'd put them into a local repository and reference them like every other dependency
05:53	ejackson	lein deps ?
05:53	robonobo	ejackson: running lein deps removes them from the lib directory
05:53	robonobo	ordnungswidrig: isn't that a bit overkill?
05:54	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: where do the local jars come from?
05:54	ejackson	robonobo: i'm confused. List the deps in your project.clj file, and then run lein deps. It will copy them from ~/.m2/... to ./lib
05:54	ejackson	or it should :)
05:54	robonobo	ordnungswidrig: they're form the zxing library
05:55	robonobo	i downloaded them, but clojars doesn't have them
05:55	ejackson	aaah, then you need put them into your local repository
05:55	robonobo	how? do i just copy the jars into the m2 dir,
05:55	robonobo	?
05:56	ejackson	or somehow inform lein of the repo where they can be found
05:56	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: http://code.google.com/p/zxing/issues/detail?id=88
05:56	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: there is actually a maven repository having these libs.
05:56	robonobo	sweet
05:57	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/stable/doc/DEPLOY.md
05:57	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html
05:57	ordnungswidrig	robonobo: the rest is on you :-)
05:58	ejackson	the last ling is how to get the jar into your local repo, from which lein can find it
05:58	ejackson	that's what i'd do
05:59	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: I'd refer to the existing repo, because there is one :-)
05:59	ejackson	ordnungswidrig: how do you tell leiningen about remote repos other than clojars ?
05:59	clojurebot	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
05:59	ejackson	(i'm a recent refugee from maven)
06:00	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: the first link above (...DEPLOY.md) shows you
06:00	ejackson	cool, thanks.
06:01	ejackson	ha :repositories
06:08	robonobo	i got it to work with the repo you sent me, ejackson, thanks guys
06:09	ejackson	groovy
06:21	Borkdude	Guys, I just got a fresh Macbook Air and installed Aquamacs. What is the common way to get Clojure working, with Slime/Swank, etc?
06:22	tufflax	Say I have a map with lots of entries in it, and I want a map where I keep just a few of them, maybe it could look something like this: (keep-entries :a :b :c) is there a function that does something like this already?
06:23	tufflax	Borkdude though I don't use emacs myself, I guess leiningen with lein swank or whatever it's called is reasonable
06:23	Borkdude	tufflax: what do you use?
06:23	tufflax	vim
06:23	tufflax	but emacs is more popular
06:24	ordnungswidrig	tufflax: ,(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:b :c])
06:24	clgv	tufflax: select-keys solves your problem
06:24	ordnungswidrig	,(select-keys {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3} [:b :c])
06:24	clojurebot	{:c 3, :b 2}
06:24	tufflax	ok thanks guys
06:25	tufflax	oh, i forgot the map in my imagined keep-entries :p
07:59	thorwil	i still wonder if it would be a good idea to handle articles and comments as a single entity in my blog
08:00	thorwil	so the journal view (list of articles) could also render an article-with-comments view, perhaps
08:02	thorwil	the relation between article and 1st level comments would be the same as between nth and (inc nth) level comments
08:17	robonobo	hi
08:18	robonobo	i don't think i fully understand how lazy-seq works when reading from disk
08:18	robonobo	i have this https://gist.github.com/1133895 code
08:19	robonobo	that takes a list of java.util.File-objects and that should lazily make them in to bufferedimages using imageio
08:19	robonobo	but even if i go (first (imgs-from-files ...)), when the filelist is long, it throws an OutOfMemoryException
08:20	robonobo	shouldn't it be reading and converting the first file only?
08:32	clgv	robonobo: depends on how exactly you use it
08:32	robonobo	clgv: what do you mean?
08:32	clgv	robonobo: if you hold on to the head of the lazy sequence all its elements will be kept in memory
08:33	opqdonut	well he's not hanging on to it
08:33	robonobo	and if i just do (first (lazy-sequence ..))
08:33	robonobo	?
08:33	opqdonut	hmm, that is weird
08:34	clgv	opqdonut: where do you want to see that? there is no call to that function in the snippet.
08:34	opqdonut	I mean, if he's calling (first (imgs-from-files ...))
08:34	robonobo	hmm, i seem to have it working now
08:34	depy	what was wrong?
08:34	clgv	robonobo: if you do (first (imgs-from-files ...)) you are only evaluating the first entry
08:34	robonobo	the problem might have been that i didn't reload (stupid)
08:34	clgv	so that one might consume too much memory.
08:35	depy	lol, :D
08:35	robonobo	that always gets me
08:35	raek	robonobo: I don't see any problem with the definition of imgs-from-file, but you can also write it as (defn imgs-from-files [files] (map load-image files))
08:36	robonobo	raek: ha, yes, ofcourse
08:36	raek	but the lazy iteration looks like what you would get if you expanded the map call
09:31	mdrogalis	Is there a function in Clojure similiar to Python's zip? Takes two sequences and returns them in pairs. Example: [1 2 3] [4 5 6] => [(1 4) (2 5) (3 6)]
09:32	chouser	mdrogalis: (map vector v1 v2)
09:35	mdrogalis	Ah, nice. Thanks chouser!
09:36	chouser	np
09:39	solussd	is there an easy way to remove all symbols in my current namespace brought in with 'use' ?
09:39	solussd	like (unuse 'some.namespace)
09:40	chouser	huh, interesting. That's a very reasonable request that I'd never considered.
09:41	depy	why is that usefull?
09:42	solussd	I'm working in a repl and i've moved some stuff around in my namespaces and completely removed one namespace and would like to avoid having to restart my repl to remove the referred symbols from my now nonexistent namespace
09:42	chouser	for when you accidentally type a naked 'use' when you meant "use only ..."
09:42	chouser	solussd: I don't think it can be done perfectly because use'ing can overwrite an existing refer in a way that can't be restored.
09:43	solussd	I figured a naked 'use' is acceptable when experimenting / building libraries
09:43	chouser	This is, a perfect "undo" isn't currently possible, I think.
09:43	chouser	but remove-all-vars-used-from-foo should be
09:46	solussd	I guess I can (ns-unmap 'user 'sym) for each one for now
09:46	chouser	solussd: yep. Gimme a sec.
09:46	solussd	:)
09:51	hugod	solussd: you could also use remove-ns on the namespace and reload it
09:52	solussd	hugod: the polluted namespace is user
09:52	solussd	just poling around on the repl
09:52	solussd	*poking
09:52	chouser	(defn un-use [ns-sym] (doseq [[k v] (.getMappings ns) :when (and (var? v) (= ns-sym (.name (.ns v))))] (ns-unmap ns k)))
09:53	chouser	should use ns-map instead of .getMappings
09:56	solussd	nice
09:56	solussd	thanks chouser!
10:02	wastrel	Good morning.
10:07	manutter	Hmm, this is interesting: http://goo.gl/yHWie
10:08	manutter	Title is "Google Closure: How NOT to write JavaScript"
10:09	manutter	Couple years old though, hopefully Google has shored up the weak spots since then.
10:13	chouser	This is better, no undocumented object interop: (defn un-use [ns-sym] (doseq [[k v] (ns-map ns) :when (and (var? v) (= (str ns-sym) (str (:ns (meta v)))))] (ns-unmap ns k)))
10:14	Scriptor	manutter: that piece got ripped apart a bit :) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=937175
10:15	manutter	Scriptor: well, he is kind of asking for it :)
10:51	manutter	Is cemerick around? I have another Spring Security question.
10:52	manutter	Or anybody else would be welcome to answer too: does Spring Security presume that you are running in Tomcat or some similar container
10:52	cemerick	No.
10:53	cemerick	Hrm. Well…
10:53	manutter	I'm thinking if I convert my app to Spring Security and then want to deploy on, say, heroku...
10:53	cemerick	spring doesn't assume that — spring-security, yes, it does. At least, it's typical deployment is via a servlet filter, which assumes a servlet container.
10:54	manutter	but even just jetty has me wondering, because I don't know if jetty reads web.xml to get the filtering
10:54	manutter	ok, that's what I was thinking
10:54	cemerick	If your deployment environment uses/respects the web.xml, then spring-security will work.
10:55	manutter	Ok, that's what I thought, thanks for the confirmation
10:55	cemerick	If it doesn't (i.e. you're deploying using embedded jetty and wiring things up programmatically without any reference to a web.xml that includes the spring-security filter), then you're going to have a hard time.
10:55	cemerick	Such arrangements bother me though, insofar as I don't want to waste programming cycles on such guff.
10:56	cemerick	Does heroku not just pick up a war file and run with it?
10:56	manutter	No, you basically push it a git repo
10:56	chouser	heroku uses source-deployment
10:57	manutter	Or I should say, I'm a heroku noob too, so I don't know what it would do if you offered it a web.xml file
10:57	cemerick	and there's a file somewhere that specifies what var holds your top-level ring handler or something?
10:57	manutter	Yeah, there's a procfile that calls lein run
10:57	chouser	there is a class of problems for which heroku is beautiful
10:57	cemerick	certainly
10:58	manutter	Yeah, it's a nice hammer, I'm just looking for the right nail ;)
10:58	cemerick	or, I can imagine so :-)
10:58	chouser	manutter: you may be able to deploy tomcat to heroku ... somehow... :-/
10:58	cemerick	Right, so heroku is Ring-only then.
10:58	manutter	Could be, but I'm thinking that heroku might not be your first choice if your product is a WAR file.
10:59	manutter	chouser: ^
10:59	chouser	manutter: that's probably true. Have you looked at CloudBees?
10:59	manutter	Oo, a new name, googling now....
10:59	lnostdal	hi, anyone noticing quite severe memory leaks using emacs-snapshot? ( http://emacs.naquadah.org/ .. i'm using the one from the ubuntu natty repo)
11:00	cemerick	If deployment options are being tossed out, see Elastic Beanstalk
11:00	cemerick	manutter: ^^
11:01	manutter	cemerick: yeah, I've looked at the AWS stuff, it's attractive too
11:01	manutter	also checking out rackspace options
11:01	chouser	cemerick: heroku is a layer of service on top of AWS
11:02	cemerick	chouser: Yeah, I knew that. ;-)
11:02	chouser	oh, ok.
11:03	chouser	Dunno if CloudBees uses AWS or not.
11:03	cemerick	I'm mostly suspicious of pure PaaS options.
11:03	chouser	but they've got eleven "Elite Developers" on their team, so that's something.
11:03	ejackson	yeah even matlab has got the AWS thing working nicely now. Virtually transparant for embarrasingly parallel problems.
11:04	cemerick	I have a draft post flaming Rackspace. Not sure if I should bother publishing it though. Scary stuff.
11:04	ejackson	oooh, elite developers.
11:04	ejackson	must be black belt
11:04	cemerick	4th degree, even :-P
11:04	chouser	actually, they're all elite developers and architects.
11:05	chouser	I wonder who builds the thing if the entire technical staff is architects.
11:05	ejackson	no way ! where did they find these ninja dragon lords ?
11:05	manutter	flaming rackspace? (pretty vivid mental image, btw) What's the issue or issues?
11:07	ejackson	manutter: a flaming elastic beanstalk is also amusing....
11:07	manutter	lol
11:07	cemerick	Just a smattering of security-related WTFs. It was enough to keep me from bothering with them after an hour or so.
11:08	manutter	cemerick: hmm, that'd be an interesting post to read
11:09	cemerick	I'd want to have someone else that isn't an idiot w.r.t. security proof it before I started yelling Fire!
11:13	TimMc	cemerick: Have you tried sending your concerns to them?
11:16	TimMc	Not that it will necessarily do any good, but there might be one or two items that they can address to your satisfaction or confirm their ignorance on. :-)
11:16	cemerick	TimMc: Beyond a WTF-flavored tweet, no. It's obvious stuff, fundamental to how their cloud servers handle root passwords, API keys, etc. It's a widely-used service, and apparently acceptable enough that there hasn't been a post about it AFAIK already.
11:17	danlarkin	it's always polite to go behind the scenes first
11:17	cemerick	Anyway, it creeped me out enough that I killed the node I started and walked away. AWS spoiled me, I guess.
11:17	danlarkin	I know if I were on the RS security team I'd appreciate it
11:18	danlarkin	AND it can save you public embarrassment if you're wrong :)
11:18	cemerick	danlarkin: True, noted. Exactly why I didn't bother publishing so far.
11:18	cemerick	Clearly, it's not a problem for a lot of other people, presumably more security-conscious than I. So, perhaps I am just flat-wrong. :-)
11:21	cemerick	ejackson: I need it! Turns out my headphones sometimes pick up CB traffic (faintly!) from the nearby highway when I'm in the right room. I thought I was going nuts for a few nights.
11:21	ejackson	lmao !
11:21	pdk	i had that a few times like 10 years ago
11:22	pdk	i recall my old tiny speakers picking up a barber shop quartet on the radio
11:39	wastrel	~/win 7
11:39	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
11:40	chouser	The clojure ggroup had double the number of messages in Jul as Jun, the most messages since March 2009
11:46	dnolen	chouser: I noticed that the other day. Though some really contentious threads contributed to that as well :)
11:48	chouser	yeah. I thought perhaps clojurescript, but that wasn't announced until lat in the month, right?
11:51	wastrel	what's clojurescript?
11:52	cemerick	wastrel's afternoon just got nuked ;-)
11:52	cemerick	clojurescript?
11:52	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
11:52	cemerick	oy
11:52	cemerick	clojurescript?
11:52	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
11:52	cemerick	clojurebot: ClojureScript is https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
11:52	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
11:52	cemerick	wastrel: ^^
11:53	wastrel	oh that is super cute
11:53	cemerick	does clojurebot have `X is not Y` support?
11:53	pjstadig	clojurebot: forget clojurescript is Chouser's baby
11:53	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
11:54	pjstadig	~clojurescript
11:54	clojurebot	clojurescript is Chouser's baby
11:54	pjstadig	usually works
11:54	pjstadig	clojurebot: forget clojurescript \|is\| Chouser's baby
11:54	clojurebot	I forgot that clojurescript is Chouser's baby
11:54	pjstadig	~clojurescript
11:54	clojurebot	ClojureScript is https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
11:54	pjstadig	thar
11:56	cemerick	nice
12:11	clgv	When using delay & force is the delayed computation only calculated ones when multiple threads force it at the same time?
12:11	hiredman	yes
12:12	clgv	so the first calling thread to delay calculates the result and the others wait for it?
12:12	hiredman	yes
12:13	hiredman	https://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Delay.java#L30
12:13	clgv	ah ok
12:33	dnolen	hey match on HN front page.
12:34	joegallo	who do i talk to about getting a jira account? i have a confluence account, but no jira account, or so it seems :/
12:35	Menthy	Does anyone know if ClojureQL supports functions like max(field) or lower(field), or what the general expression is to create such function ?
12:36	joegallo	ah, found it on my own
12:39	ambrosebs	dnolen: +1ed :)
12:46	crazyFox	When i do (unchecked-remainder a b) at the REPL, i get an exception: CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: unchecked-remainder in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:14). Im using clojure-1.3.0-beta1. Any thoughts what the reason is?
12:47	arohner	ibdknox: I have an idea for noir: optionally naming pages.
12:47	hiredman	crazyFox: there is no function called unchecked-remainder
12:47	arohner	ibdknox: I'd like to do something like (defpage [foo :get "/"] {id :id}), so that somewhere else, I can do (link-to (url-for foo) "a link")
12:48	crazyFox	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.core/unchecked-remainder what about this one? is it only 1.2.0?
12:49	hiredman	crazyFox: open up core.clj and look
12:49	dnolen	crazyFox: some of the math stuff changed in 1.3.0.
12:50	dnolen	crazyFox: you have unchecked-remainder-int now.
12:51	dnolen	crazyFox: also (set! unchecked-math true) followed by (rem ...) will probably do what you want.
12:51	crazyFox	thats a nice pointer. it works. thank you!
12:52	crazyFox	dnolen: so, are all math ops after (set! unchecked-macht true) unchecked, until i set it to false again?
12:53	crazyFox	*math
12:53	raek	crazyFox: I think it is a compiler flag, like warn-on-reflection, that is read when the defns are compiled
12:54	dnolen	crazyFox: yes
13:02	clgv	I have several instance files that are loaded into my programm and then an algorithm is repeatedly executed on those instances. when the execution is sequential in one thread it lasts about 14secs when I use 4 parallel threads I get the results of all 4 of them after around 37secs. what might I do wrong?
13:03	clgv	currently I load the files via a memoized like approach with delay & force so that only one thread has to access the filesystem
13:06	clgv	ah the machine the program is running on has 12 physical cores
13:15	clgv	any idea?
13:27	manutter	And NetBeans 7 once again decides to fall over and die because I allowed it to upgrade itself. Sigh.
13:27	manutter	Yet another reason why I love working in PHP at my day job.
13:28	clgv	try eclipse ;)
13:28	cemerick	manutter: what does "die" mean, specifically?
13:29	manutter	cemerick: It tells me that it could not install a module (lucene something) and that therefore 61 other modules must be disabled, including all my PHP functionality
13:29	cemerick	ah
13:29	manutter	plus arbitrarily deleting some of my preferences and saved settings.
13:30	cemerick	NetBeans was segfaulting for me and others circa 6.8. I'd +1 the eclipse suggestion.
13:31	manutter	Well, I've got a couple reasons why that's an appealing alternative now
13:31	manutter	The other reason is I'm running the Zend server, and have a licensed copy of Zend Studio
13:32	manutter	but it's a hog (on my machine at least)
13:32	cemerick	I just finished eliminating the last vestige of PHP in my control. </relief>
13:33	manutter	o rub it in :P
13:33	cemerick	Just empathizing ;-)
13:33	TimMc	cemerick: Did you do it by replacing the PHP or ceding ownership? :-P
13:33	cemerick	replacing/eliminating
13:34	TimMc	bless you, then
13:34	cemerick	That also means I have no more apache or lighttpd instances under my control, which is nice
13:34	manutter	heh, maybe I can just look forward to that some day
13:34	manutter	no apache? you're all tomcat now or something?
13:34	cemerick	Yup
13:35	cemerick	I get bashed for that here and there, but I've never quite understood why. Tomcat has always workedforme.
13:35	Hodapp	I am using Tomcat here. It's been working quite well.
13:35	manutter	Any limitations on it in a production environment?
13:36	clgv	ok a different question: how to implement a producer consumer scenario in clojure?
13:36	manutter	I mean, I'm sure it must have some limitations, everything does
13:36	manutter	but anything in particular that bothers you?
13:36	clgv	I have k producers and 1 consumer
13:37	manutter	clgv: I thought I recently saw some discussion about that, and IIRC someone recommended using plain old Java queues or something
13:38	clgv	manutter: I tired to do it like that as well, but somehow on a 12 core machine 10 threads spent most of the time in monitors...
13:39	cemerick	manutter: It was somewhat late to the party with the servlet 3 support (async requests) and such, I think. Maybe that's behind the griping.
13:41	manutter	cemerick: could be
13:41	manutter	clgv: I'm out of my depth at this point :/
13:42	manutter	oh gawd, I fired up Eclipse/ZendStudio since NB is hosed, and it's saying, "Upgrade available!"
13:42	manutter	Gaaaahh!
13:42	amalloy	clgv: one consumer? sounds like an agent
13:43	clgv	amalloy: could be an agent. but how to manage the k producers?
13:43	amalloy	shrug depends on your application
13:43	amalloy	simplest off-the-cuff answer is "start up a future for each of them"
13:44	clgv	ok. or pmap then I guess
13:44	amalloy	pmap doesn't sound like a good plan to me
13:45	clgv	why?
13:45	clojurebot	why not?
13:45	clgv	clojurebot: kick
13:45	clojurebot	No entiendo
13:45	technomancy	clojurebot: how?
13:45	clojurebot	with style and grace
13:46	amalloy	i mean, how would you use it? pmap never has more than N active threads at a time (for some N)
13:46	amalloy	if your producers block, or need to run indefinitely, then you can't run them all at once with pmap
13:46	clgv	ok.
14:28	crazyFox	what are these random answers of clojurebot sometimesß
14:28	crazyFox	?
14:30	manutter	clojurebot is monitoring the clojars.org site for new uploads, and reporting them.
14:30	manutter	or else he's just bored
14:30	crazyFox	random. who programmed this thing?
14:31	manutter	hmm, I think clojurebot is hiredman's?
14:31	manutter	Not sure.
14:31	chouser	yes
14:32	crazyFox	clojurebot: who is your author?
14:32	clojurebot	author is hiredman
14:32	crazyFox	:)
14:32	Scriptor	hehehe
14:32	manutter	clojurebot scares me sometimes
14:33	amalloy	~guards
14:33	clojurebot	SEIZE HIM!
14:33	crazyFox	manutter: right on to that
14:33	manutter	clojurebot: what is skynet?
14:33	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
14:35	manutter	~botsnack
14:35	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
14:35	amalloy	i forget who taught him that one. his built-in botsnack response is more entertaining
14:36	amalloy	clojurebot: forget botsnack is \|reply\| Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
14:36	clojurebot	I forgot that botsnack is reply Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
14:36	manutter	~chocolate
14:36	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
14:36	amalloy	~botsnack
14:36	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
14:36	amalloy	sigh
14:39	solussd	~botsnack
14:39	clojurebot	Thanks, but I prefer chocolate
14:39	solussd	~chocolate
14:39	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:39	solussd	~don't get fat
14:39	clojurebot	Pardon?
14:41	solussd	~(reduce + '(12 3 5 1))
14:41	clojurebot	,(let [testar (fn [x y] (cond (= (reduce + (filter odd? (range 0 x))) y) (str y " is an square perfect")), :else("nao eh") )] (testar 10 25))
14:42	manutter	what the heck?
14:43	solussd	,(let [testar (fn [x y] (cond (= (reduce + (filter odd? (range 0 x))) y) (str y " is an square perfect")), :else("nao eh") )] (testar 10 25))
14:43	clojurebot	#<ClassCastException java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn>
14:51	hugod	dnolen: congrats on match - looking very useful
14:51	hugod	do you have plans on pushing a jar for it?
15:06	arohner	ibdknox: I made a longer post to the clj-noir group about url-for
15:08	ibdknox	arohner: yeah, that's not an uncommon request
15:08	ibdknox	arohner: I'm not opposed to being able to name a page
15:08	arohner	ibdknox: do you have opinions on syntax?
15:09	ibdknox	arohner: I think I like this one the best: (defpage foo [:get "/foo/:id] {id :id}
15:09	arohner	k
15:10	ibdknox	arohner: or the same (depage foo "/foo/:id" {id :id} ...)
15:10	Vinzent	btw, jaco already has named routes
15:10	Vinzent	https://github.com/dnaumov/jaco
15:11	ibdknox	arohner: I think it should be optional though
15:12	arohner	ibdknox: sure.
15:27	ibdknox	arohner: did you want to take a stab at a patch? I'm happy to do it later.
15:27	arohner	ibdknox: yeah, I want to work on it, this is sort of blocking me. I should have something in a few hours
15:28	ibdknox	kidoke
15:28	ibdknox	if you just want to be unblocked
15:28	ibdknox	you can call a route via (render)
15:28	ibdknox	though it's not as pretty as what you've laid out there
15:35	dnolen	hugod: thx
15:35	dnolen	Would like to get a couple more things in there first before pushing a jar.
15:45	hiredman	we'll have to see if technomancy can get rid of my 'match' on clojars
16:10	technomancy	hiredman: Do you really want to remove the "match" group and jar? [y/N]
16:10	hiredman	Yeah
16:11	technomancy	done
16:12	hiredman	dun dun dun
16:40	arohner	ibdknox: how do you run the tests?
16:42	ibdknox	arohner: lein test
16:46	ibdknox	arohner: make sure you do it against the vnext branch
16:46	mattmitchell	is there a built in function that will tell me if a list of numbers is either all in descending or ascending order?
16:46	technomancy	mattmitchell: < and >
16:46	arohner	,(< 1 7 10)
16:46	clojurebot	true
16:46	mattmitchell	technomancy: awesome! thanks
16:46	arohner	,(< 3 1 2)
16:46	clojurebot	false
16:46	mattmitchell	arohner: exactly what i was looking for, thank you
16:47	technomancy	they should really be thought of as increasing? and decreasing? rather than greater-than? and less-than?
16:53	joegallo	that's a nice way of thinking about it, technomancy
16:53	scottj	+1
17:15	amalloy	technomancy: going to rename <= non-decreasing too?
17:16	manutter	Does Eclipse play nicely with leiningen? I just installed Eclipse/CCW at home for the first time
17:16	manutter	and I've exhausted the "Getting Started" page at dev.clojure.org
17:17	amalloy	manutter: shouldn't you be reading help documents for ccw rather than whatever's at clojure.org?
17:17	manutter	That's where I started, but it led me on a chain of links to the page at dev.clojure.org
17:18	amalloy	ken wesson would love to hear that you're having trouble finding help with ccw, i'm sure :P
17:18	manutter	lol
17:18	amalloy	manutter: really though i've no idea. maybe cemerick can help
17:18	manutter	eh, I should probably ask earlier in the day, the main CCW guys are in France, aren't they?
17:19	amalloy	manutter: lpetit is, but i know cemerick does some work on it and is an advocate
17:19	manutter	yeah, it's partly cemerick's urging that got me here
17:20	manutter	Dunno what's wrong with my setup at work--I started Eclipse, and in 1 hr and 15 minutes I (a) opened a php file and (b) tried to run it in Debug mode
17:21	manutter	Finally I left to come home, and Eclipse was still cranking away at "Building workspace (75%)"
17:21	technomancy	manutter: worst case scenario is you do "lein pom" and treat it like a maven project
17:21	manutter	Sounds promising
17:21	cemerick	manutter: There is no Leiningen plugin for Eclipse. Use `lein pom` to produce a pom.xml you can use as a basis for a maven project in eclipse.
17:21	cemerick	Feh. :-)
17:21	manutter	Eclipse Indigo at home is pretty cool, I'll be playing with it some more
17:22	manutter	Is there a shell script plugin? That'd meet most of my needs
17:23	manutter	(where "my needs" == "too lazy to switch windows")
17:23	cemerick	"shell script plugin"?
17:23	manutter	eh, something that would let me run commandline commands or scripts from within eclipse
17:24	manutter	of course, that would end up being me calling "lein foo" from within eclipse, since lein is a script
17:24	manutter	it's no biggie of course, I just have to pop open a terminal window
17:25	manutter	I'm just kicking the tires and stuff, haven't played with eclipse in years and don't remember what all it does.
17:26	cemerick	manutter: That's built-in. Menus: Run > External Tools > External Tools Config. Create a new "program" config. Specify your path to lein, and I think there's a property you can use to dynamically choose your working directly based on "current project". Command line args of "pom".
17:26	cemerick	Bind that to a keystroke, and you've got `lein pom`.
17:26	manutter	cool, that's the ticket :)
17:27	manutter	thanks guys, I'm off to play some more then
17:28	cemerick	manutter: The above is untested, BTW ;-) …but should work
17:28	manutter	I'll test it then :)
17:31	cemerick	Huh, nifty. ${container_loc} as working directory works nicely :-)
17:31	cemerick	manutter: ^^
17:32	manutter	awesome, thanks
17:32	cemerick	That's probably going to key off of the active (or most-recently-active) editor to determine "active project".
17:39	manutter	Cool, lein pom works
17:39	manutter	lein deps is going to have issues because the lein directory structure is different from eclipse's
17:39	amalloy	manutter: both of those are trivially configurable
17:40	manutter	aha thanks
17:40	cemerick	manutter: eclipse doesn't have a particular directory structure…
17:40	manutter	I sould be able to track that down then
17:40	manutter	s/sould/should/
17:40	lazybot	<manutter> I should be able to track that down then
17:52	manutter	so before I chase this too far, what's the usual eclipse way to add, say, compojure to a clojure project? I suspect it's not lein deps...?
17:53	Scriptor	manutter: yep, nothing to do with eclipse
17:54	Scriptor	just add the latest compojure to project.clj and do lein deps
17:54	manutter	ok, that's good news for plugin related stuff too (lein noir new foo)
17:55	manutter	and I just have to add lib/*.jar to the classpath
17:55	manutter	after lein deps
17:56	manutter	So far I've got two clojures tho: lib/clojure-1.2.1.jar and Eclipse's native clojure.jar at the root level
17:56	Scriptor	wait, why do you need to add them to the classpath?
17:56	Scriptor	lein handles most classpath stuff
17:56	Scriptor	well, not sure how it integrates with eclipse, I guess
17:57	manutter	That's what I'm wondering abou
17:57	manutter	*about
17:57	manutter	I'm cool with emacs and cli lein, just not sure how to achieve the same results in eclipse
17:58	manutter	I suppose I could use lein deps and lein swank, and just use Eclipse's "connect to external REPL" command
18:02	ibdknox	manutter,
18:02	ibdknox	someone had a noir "template" for eclipse
18:02	ibdknox	https://github.com/yogthos/Noir-Eclipse-Template-Project
18:03	ibdknox	you could use that as a rough guide on setting up the classpath/project file for eclipse correctly
18:03	ibdknox	disclaimer I haven't tried it
18:13	technomancy	manutter: use lein repl instead of swank; it starts a socket repl
18:27	ibdknox	arohner: I left a couple comments. The patch looks good, just don't want a contrib dependecy
18:27	arohner	ibdknox: ok
18:27	arohner	I'll have those fixed tomorrow
18:27	ibdknox	awesome, good work sir!
18:32	manutter	ibdknox, technomancy: thanks!
18:33	ibdknox	manutter: anytime
18:47	justicefries	what are the good/recommended clojure books?
18:47	Raynes	All of them.
18:48	justicefries	fair enough. ;)
18:51	Raynes	justicefries: Programming Clojure is horribly out of date at this point, though I hear they're currently writing the second edition.
18:51	justicefries	ah ha.
18:51	Raynes	Beyond that, you should be fine.
18:51	justicefries	I'm going through the Clojure reference now, was looking at Joy of Clojure as well
18:51	Raynes	Practical Clojure + The Joy of Clojure tends to be a popular combo.
18:51	justicefries	ah
18:51	justicefries	perfect
18:52	Raynes	When my book comes out it'll (obviously) take over the world.
18:52	Raynes	But until then, you people just have to deal.
18:52	justicefries	ha! What's the book?
18:52	Raynes	meetclj.raynes.me
18:52	justicefries	nice. I'm straying away from Ruby-land.
18:52	Raynes	Not cool enough to have its own domain name.
18:52	justicefries	into clojure.
18:53	gfrlog	clojure has totally ruined ruby for me
18:53	justicefries	yup.
18:53	justicefries	been doing obj-C and clojure.
18:53	Raynes	cemerick: Damn you all to hell.
18:54	technomancy	programming clojure isn't that out of date
18:54	amalloy	Raynes: just hack his website
18:54	Raynes	technomancy: It's pretty well out of date.
18:54	cemerick	Raynes: Surely the right domain will get you #2 in google results? ;-)
18:54	technomancy	the only thing that's confusing is that it talks about structs
18:54	gfrlog	Raynes: what is chapter 7 about?
18:54	technomancy	the lack of protocols/records shouldn't be an issue for an introductory book
18:54	Raynes	gfrlog: Lisp. It's the macro chapter and such/
18:54	Raynes	technomancy: Doesn't it make use of contrib libraries that don't even exist anymore?
18:54	gfrlog	Raynes: and how do you pronounce the chapter name?
18:55	Raynes	gfrlog: You don't.
18:55	Raynes	And those chapter names are tentative and likely to change as I think of cleverer names.
18:55	gfrlog	oh now I have to just to be contrary
18:55	Raynes	You can pronounce it "chapter 7"
18:55	technomancy	hm... I guess there's a fair amount of contrib stuff there
18:55	amalloy	gfrlog: i think it sounds like a raspberry
18:55	gfrlog	I think my first instinct is to pronounce it as if it were a long string of 'f's
18:56	ibdknox	technomancy: I had a friend go through it recently, and there was a fair amount I had to help with
18:56	Raynes	The order of the chapters is probably not final either.
18:56	amalloy	technomancy: when Raynes said "all of them", i reminded him of all the poor souls who ask how to use duck-streams with clojure-1.0.0-SNAPSHOT or some equally absurd version
18:56	ibdknox	lol
18:57	justicefries	i have beginningclojure.com :)
18:57	technomancy	people pick on programming clojure because it doesn't cover records, but I don't think that's a fault. if you've only got 200 pages, it's perfectly reasonable
18:57	amalloy	technomancy: totally agree there. who cares
18:58	amalloy	the fewer new users who hear about records, the happier #clojure will be
18:58	ibdknox	haha
18:58	Raynes	My book will probably cover twice as much as Programming Clojure in the same number of pages. Whether that's a good thing or not remains to be seen.
18:58	gfrlog	what's the concisest/cleverest way to reverse an interleave operation?
18:58	amalloy	gfrlog: that's a question on 4clojure. best answer has been tweeted
18:59	gfrlog	amalloy: okay I'll go browse
18:59	amalloy	&(->> [[1 2 3 4] [:a :b :c :d]] (apply interleave) (partition 2) (apply map list))
18:59	lazybot	⇒ ((1 2 3 4) (:a :b :c :d))
19:00	amalloy	gfrlog: (for your convenience)
19:00	gfrlog	amalloy: thanks. That is exactly as clever as I was hoping it would be.
19:02	justicefries	Raynes: when'll the book be finished?
19:02	justicefries	(hurry up.)
19:02	Raynes	justicefries: Sometime in the next 10 years or so, I imagine.
19:04	Raynes	My deadline with my publisher is November unless they extend it. I kind of skipped the last 4 months with very little work on the book. If by some miracle I manage to finish it by November and/or my publisher doesn't drop me like a brick for being slow, sometime early next year would be my best guess.
19:07	Raynes	And to anybody thinking me lazy, just you try to keep yourself motivated to write a book when you have to spend half of your day fighting with OpenOffice to do it. Just... you... try...
19:07	amalloy	take a detour to write a program that converts markdown into their crazy openoffice format
19:07	amalloy	how long can that take...
19:07	Raynes	Man, the stuff that OpenOffice generates...
19:07	ibdknox	LaTeX
19:08	ibdknox	:p
19:08	Raynes	It isn't even natural. It isn't human.
19:08	Raynes	It's like a Dalek core dump.
19:10	justicefries	OO is nasty. Do it in Byword
19:10	justicefries	.
19:11	Raynes	justicefries: They have this insane OpenOffice template that I have to use. Picture this: 3 different styles applies to three different portions of a single code block and every single code block.
19:11	justicefries	what? that sounds wild.
19:11	Raynes	CodeA for the first line, CodeB for the middle lines, CodeC for the final lines.
19:12	Raynes	cemerick: You don't know how good you have it, man.
19:12	cemerick	Raynes: I'm _very_ aware of my markup nirvana. :-)
19:13	justicefries	that sounds pretty ugly.
19:13	cemerick	Raynes: If I were you, I wouldn't bother with their templates or openoffice at all until you're 98% done. At that point, pick through as you need to match what's required.
19:14	Raynes	cemerick: I think it's likely more tolerable to apply the styles as I go, because there are a lot of them. A l-o-t of them.
19:14	amalloy	i imagine cemerick is right
19:15	amalloy	because then you can edit stuff
19:15	Raynes	Well, I can edit stuff anyways.
19:15	cemerick	constantly going type-3-words, mouse around, type-6-words, mouse around would drive me batty.
19:16	Raynes	It's pretty bad. I should have self published.
19:16	carlo_au	Raynes: why not LaTeX?
19:16	Raynes	carlo_au: Because my publisher doesn't like it.
19:16	Raynes	And I don't really like it either.
19:17	Raynes	Don't really want to learn a new language to write a book.
19:17	Raynes	If they just had an asciidoc or docbook workflow like every other decent publisher, things would be easy.
19:17	cemerick	I thought conversion to emacs required a tour of duty in the LaTeX mission?
19:18	carlo_au	Raynes: there's not that much to LaTeX
19:19	carlo_au	the horrible details are best left to a publisher
19:19	cemerick	Raynes: Right, see, you should just march in there and set them straight. ;-)
19:20	Raynes	I've complained so hard.
19:20	Raynes	I know, but I seriously have.
19:20	Raynes	I seem to recall saying something like "Please, oh please, come up with some sort of markup workflow. If not for me, for future writers."
19:20	cemerick	Things like this are fundamentally not worth fighting for.
19:21	Raynes	Why not?
19:22	cemerick	Because you have no stake in the inner bowels of a publisher you have no stake in, and even if you were to convince them to change things, that change would surely not go into effect in time for you to take advantage.
19:23	cemerick	It's like me walking into a department store and trying to get them to change their POS system.
19:24	Raynes	My editor said that he had been working on getting some sort of asciidoc or markdown workflow going, but hadn't been successful yet. I mostly encouraged him. I didn't really elevate my position.
19:25	cemerick	Sure. I've seen people invest a lot of resources into pitched battles like this. I guess it was a generalized comment.
19:26	technomancy	manning used to require _word_ files, so... it could be worse
19:30	amalloy	technomancy: i have this bizarre mental image of sending them a book comprised of a zillion single-word files and waiting for them to stitch it all back together
19:31	technomancy	amalloy: sounds about right; isn't that how Office works behind the scenes?
19:31	amalloy	it would explain the size of the .doc files
19:32	cemerick	gfrlog: non-technical people in general aren't so picky and irritable as we are.
19:32	Raynes	cemerick: Paragraph styles are easy for the most part. The template automatically uses the right paragraph styles and switches them when they need to be switched. The only time I have to set a paragraph style manually is when I'm pasting a block of code or doing something equally... different.
19:32	Raynes	Character styles are a problem.
19:32	amalloy	gfrlog: "Isn't it great that you can send Word files? Last time I published you had to supply your own ink and typewriter"
19:32	Raynes	There are a lot of 'literal' words (names of functions and such) in my book so I have to set literal, write the word, set default, continue.
19:33	gfrlog	amalloy: that's the kind of thing I was thinking. that maybe word files are literally the best that a publisher could possibly offer.
19:33	cemerick	Raynes: asciidoc inline styles: _foo_, `bar`, baz </rubbing-it-in> :-D
19:33	gfrlog	Raynes: you have keyboard shortcuts for all that?
19:33	kwertii	learning LaTeX was highly annoying. it has a bizarre and archaic syntax, and a million subpackages for every little thing. it was a very steep and painful learning curve. BUT now everything prints EXACTLY as I want it to.
19:33	Raynes	I have a keybinding for that though. As a matter of fact, keybindings would make nearly all of this irrelevant but OpenOffice shortcuts are completely destroyed on OS X.
19:35	Raynes	cemerick: One fantastic thing is that I get to use wingdings. Never thought I'd get to do that.
19:35	cemerick	Raynes: for what?
19:36	Raynes	Numbering lines in code so that I can address each line individually in my text.
19:36	Raynes	Stuff like that.
19:36	cemerick	Right, callouts.
19:37	cemerick	asciidoc callouts are pretty nifty http://www.methods.co.nz/asciidoc/chunked/ch17.html#CO1-3
19:38	Raynes	Man, this conversation has sucked like an hour of productivity out of my work day. You should all be ashamed.
19:38	cemerick	I do wish github had better asciidoc support. It blows markdown out of the water completely.
19:41	technomancy	markdown is totally a least-common-denominator
19:42	cemerick	Perhaps, but it's better than a lot of other options.
19:42	cemerick	I could never stand textile, for example. There's another extraordinarily verbose markup out there that is popular for reasons passing understanding, the name for which escapes me.
19:43	technomancy	mediawiki?
19:44	Raynes	Whatever pathetic markup that JIRA uses?
19:44	cemerick	heh, that's not it, but it's worse than all the others combined
19:44	amalloy	argh jira
19:44	Raynes	$kill
19:44	lazybot	KILL IT WITH FIRE!
19:56	hiredman	you can tell emacs is a serious editor because it runs as part of its own build process
21:18	leo2007	Good morning.
21:18	leo2007	When I run swank-clojure shell script, it prints back: user=> Connection opened on null port 4005
21:18	leo2007	but slime-connect fails
21:18	leo2007	Connecting to Swank on port 4005.. [2 times] open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005, :nowait, nil
21:19	leo2007	ideas?
22:06	fmw	I posted a clojurescript related post to HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/newest
22:06	fmw	not linking directly on purpose, because the HN system detects any upvotes from that as cheating ;)
22:24	amac_	I've having a few problems with namespaces: I need to intern a bunch of defs to partial fns at runtime, the first problem is that if I intern to ns it doesn't refer to the ns of the caller it's hitting some global ns (lein points to 'user, running the jar dumps in 'clojure.core(?!)), the second is that regardless of where they are interned I can't seem to call them (they don't pass the compiler check that they exist,
22:26	hiredman	ns is a compile time construct
22:26	hiredman	vars are resolved at compile time
22:26	amac_	damn.
22:27	leo2007	why the means I use to connect to internet interfere with slime connection to swank-clojure?
22:27	leo2007	on the same machine of course.
22:28	amac_	leo2007: what problem are you seeing?
22:29	leo2007	for example, when I am connecting to internet through my iphone, I am getting Connecting to Swank on port 4005.. [2 times] open-network-stream: make client process failed: connection refused, :name, SLIME Lisp, :buffer, nil, :host, 127.0.0.1, :service, 4005, :nowait, nil
22:29	amac_	hiredman: is there a proper way to define things at runtime and have them be visable?
22:29	hiredman	"don't"
22:29	amac_	hah
22:29	amalloy	amac_: good advice
22:30	amac_	leo2007: could be how your phone is routing traffic
22:30	hiredman	I mean, you can do it, but if you find yourself doing it, you should stop and do something better
22:30	leo2007	amac_: common lisp swank works just fine.
22:31	amac_	It was just meant to be some syntactic niceness in an orm I'm writing, map the crud fns to nice names that are defined outside the scope of the script
22:31	amac_	leo2007: that's odd, how are you launching swank?
22:32	leo2007	I run the swank-clojure script in .lein/bin
22:32	amac_	scratch that, use the lein plugin
22:32	leo2007	what?
22:32	clojurebot	what is bla
22:32	amac_	then just go to your project and type "lein swank"
22:33	amac_	are you familiar with lein?
22:33	leo2007	amac_: I can only tested it later since I cannot disconnect now.
22:33	leo2007	amac_: a little bit by reading lein --help
22:33	leo2007	I am comfortable with lisp and slime/swank though.
22:34	amac_	lein is a dependency/build tool, and pretty standard for most clojure projects, it also has a plugin for easily launching swank
22:35	amac_	take a look at the github page for instructions
22:36	leo2007	amac_: I need to modify swank-clojure to work with latest slime. Loading that old slime.el screw over my setups for common lisp and scheme.
22:36	leo2007	amac_: thanks for the pointer.
22:37	jweiss	this is a bizarre bug. with my project (mix clojure java) using lein's classpath, a simple test with xmlrpc client deadlocks waiting for a connection. if I remove src/ and resources/ from the classpath, it works. but leaving either one in, deadlocks.
22:37	jweiss	the test is entirely a java codepath, so the clojure source being in the classpath shouldn't matter
22:37	jweiss	and certainly not the png files in resources/
22:39	amac_	leo2007: np, ping me later if its still not working for you
22:41	leo2007	amac: thanks a lot.
23:13	gfrlog	,(println ",(println :foobar)")
23:13	clojurebot	,(println :foobar)
23:13	gfrlog	drat
23:18	amac	gfrlog: Isn't there a second bot in here still? Get them to talk to each other. :)
23:19	amalloy	jesus. do we have to do attempt-and-fail a bot-storm every week?
23:20	amac	yes.
23:21	gfrlog	amac: I thought of that one a while ago. Why it took me this long to try clojurebot on itself, I'm not sure.