#clojure – 2011-08-08

2011-08-08

00:00	jsnikeris	amalloy: thanks for your help as usual
04:57	neotyk	Good morning everyone!
04:58	lnostdal-laptop	hello dr. nick!
05:01	ejackson	moring neotyx
05:04	neotyk	guys and galls I made some progress on clojure/clojurescript and websocket sample application, if you would like to see it: http://lab01.kungfoo.pl:8108/
05:09	ejackson	neotyk: i most certainly would... I'm currently trying to figure out how to get cljs to print a string representation of an object
05:10	ejackson	you'd thing you could just do (str [1 2 3]), but putting that through a setTextContent renders and [object Object] annoying !
05:11	neotyk	ejackson: code is not yet ready to be published, but I demo it this Wednesday, so will publish it then
05:11	ejackson	neotyk: I can't select the text box in Firefox in your app
05:11	ejackson	but can in safari
05:11	ejackson	it tells me : No WebSocket supported, get a decent browser.
05:11	ejackson	hahahaha
05:11	neotyk	ejackson: what version of ff?
05:12	neotyk	exactly
05:12	ejackson	5.0.1
05:12	ejackson	probably some security setitng
05:12	ejackson	i'm a little paranoid
05:13	neotyk	I use chrome for development and testing
05:13	neotyk	and from time to time check it on safari
05:14	neotyk	FF didn't work for me as well, but I have old version
05:14	ejackson	neotyk: is there some difference between (str [1 2 3]) and "[1 2 3]" in CS ? I can render one, but not the other :(
05:15	neotyk	one is vector other one is string
05:15	neotyk	no, actually both are strings
05:16	ejackson	indeed
05:17	neotyk	so first one is [object Object]
05:17	neotyk	right?
05:17	clojurebot	Equal Rights for Functional Objects is Baker's paper on equality and why it's impossible to define sensible equality in the presence of mutable data structures: http://home.pipeline.com/hbaker1/ObjectIdentity.html
05:17	ejackson	yeah, but why ? I'm not understanding that
05:18	ejackson	even (. [1 2 3] (toString)) becomes [object Object]
05:18	ejackson	bummer
05:18	neotyk	I guess it's js object you are getting
05:20	neotyk	what if you would do (str (vec [1 2 3]))
05:20	ejackson	let me see
05:20	ejackson	same
05:20	ejackson	how irritating !
05:22	neotyk	maybe printing is not yet ported
05:23	ejackson	hmm.....
05:24	ejackson	must be
05:25	ejackson	but the whole groovy thing is to be able to pass clojure datastructures back and forth to the server, how is this possible without the printer ?
05:25	hiredman	str has never been about round tripping datastructures
05:25	hiredman	use prn, pr, pr-str, prn-str and friends
05:26	ejackson	hiredman: aha ! thank you
05:27	neotyk	and read them with read-string
05:28	ejackson	and we have a winner
05:28	ejackson	I had the read-string down, but he pr-str was the missing piece
06:31	ordnungswidrig	does anybody know of a static blog generator in clojure, like jekyll et al?
07:21	triyo	Hi guys. Is it possible, by any general means, to :require Clojure code in the ClojureScript namespace? Say for instance, I have utility function that directly translate from Clojure to ClojureScript, really power lies in the ability to reuse that function across the application layer boundaries if thinking in an example of Front-end (browser-based) and back-end.
07:22	triyo	*really=real
07:22	triyo	Anyone any thoughts on this?
07:26	triyo	So take for instance a validate component. The `logic` part of the component would be referenced from both the fron-end and the back-end of the application, thus satisfying the DRY principal.
07:26	triyo	*validate=validation
07:37	triyo	Seems to me like :refer-macros would make this possible as ClojureScript's macros are written in Clojure
07:56	krumholt	hi, can i write a macro that evaluates to no code? i want to write a macro that depending on a condition inserts code or nothing. is that possible?
07:59	triyo	By nothing you mean nil?
08:00	triyo	an (if ..) form would give you `something` when condition is met. When condition is not met it would return nil.
08:00	opqdonut	krumholt: sure, just return nil from the macro
08:00	opqdonut	when you want no code
08:01	krumholt	thats what i do right now
08:01	triyo	,(if (=1 2) "will not evaluate")
08:01	clojurebot	#<CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: Unable to resolve symbol: =1 in this context, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_PATH:0)>
08:01	triyo	,(if (= 1 2) "will not evaluate")
08:01	clojurebot	nil
08:02	krumholt	but nil is not the same as nothing at all
08:02	triyo	what is `nothing`?
08:02	krumholt	whitespace
08:03	triyo	Then return empty string -> ""
08:03	opqdonut	:D
08:03	opqdonut	nil is very much the same as nothing as far as macros are considered
08:03	opqdonut	changing a form to nil is what (comment ...) does, for example
08:03	krumholt	im trying to make an example (+ 1 2 (maybe 3)) and i want maybe to check a condition known at compiletime and then insert 3 or nothing at all
08:04	triyo	nope
08:04	triyo	insert 0
08:04	opqdonut	oh, right
08:04	triyo	in your case for that operation type
08:04	krumholt	i could do that but that would only work for numbers
08:04	krumholt	not for text
08:04	opqdonut	you can't really do that. you need a macro that wraps around the + expression
08:04	opqdonut	and introspects it for occurrences of maybe
08:04	opqdonut	and then maybe deletes them
08:04	krumholt	opqdonut, ah nice thanks. thats actually what i want
08:05	opqdonut	krumholt: you'll might want to use clojure.walk for traversing the expression
08:06	krumholt	i'll look at that thanks again
08:06	opqdonut	btw,
08:07	opqdonut	,(+ 1 2 #_(+ 5 6))
08:07	clojurebot	3
08:07	depy	woot!
08:07	depy	,(+ 1 2)
08:07	clojurebot	3
08:07	depy	nice! :D
08:07	opqdonut	(of course that's not toggleable)
08:07	triyo	hmm what reader is that?
08:07	triyo	#_
08:07	triyo	pretty cool
08:07	opqdonut	it's been in clojure since forever
08:08	opqdonut	documented on e.g. http://clojure.org/reader
08:08	triyo	Oh sweet, like a commenting effect on pre-eval
08:08	triyo	Yup just saw the docs
08:09	depy	Why is #_ used for? I can't think of any case where to use this... :)
08:09	depy	Just curious..
08:10	triyo	When you want to exclude a form from being evaluated under certain conditions I'd say
08:10	opqdonut	commenting stuff out
08:10	opqdonut	when (comment ...) isn't applicable
08:10	opqdonut	and you don't want to munge the line structure to make ;; possible
08:11	triyo	that'd suite krumholt requirement with the maybe construct quite nicely.
08:11	triyo	in the macro def
08:11	depy	couldn't u solve this by using "if" ?
08:12	triyo	No, as it retunes nil
08:12	triyo	(+ 1 2 (maybe 6))
08:12	opqdonut	triyo: but you can't emit a #_ from a macro, since #_ is a reader feature
08:12	opqdonut	and anyway, I'm guessing krumholt wants to programmatically change whether stuff is included or not
08:13	opqdonut	of course he could just write out all the different cases in a cond, but that cond might be huge
08:13	triyo	yup, my guess too, I see what you mean
08:14	triyo	I must say though, to achieve that with a type system like that of Haskell is insanely simple without the use of macro system.
08:14	opqdonut	well, no
08:15	opqdonut	that's actually one of the things you can't do easily in a non-lisp language
08:15	opqdonut	omit parts of expressions
08:15	triyo	its not really an omission as such.
08:16	triyo	Its pure compile time polymorphism
08:16	triyo	you define what `maybe` instance for specific type means
08:16	opqdonut	for a special case like monoids (emitting a type-dependent "0") the haskell solution is quite neat
08:16	triyo	for in case if integer, it may mean zero
08:16	triyo	:)
08:16	triyo	thats what I mean,
08:17	opqdonut	well it does take some trying to get to a situation where omitting is necessary even in clojure
08:18	opqdonut	most variable-argument-length functions handle nil as absence of a parameter
08:18	triyo	yup, and that is one of the neatest things in my opinion in Clojure.
08:19	triyo	,(map #(* % 2) nil)
08:19	clojurebot	()
08:20	triyo	imagine if we had to instead write conditional nil checks on each of those calls?
08:21	triyo	where this notion fails though is on java interop though.
08:22	triyo	resulting in NPEs
08:23	triyo	wold be cool if you could say (.getFile should-be-url), where should-be-url is actuall a null pointer reference.
08:23	triyo	just first impression, I;m sure its not simple as that
08:34	leonid	nil is just an empty list
08:34	triyo	yup
08:35	triyo	lisp in general as far as I remember
08:37	triyo	I remember seeing it in the Micro-manual for LISP written by John McCarthy in 1978 in this paper -> https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B0ZnV_0C-Q7IOTRkNzVjZjMtMWE1NC00YzQ3LTgzMWEtM2UwY2I1YzdmNmM5&hl=en
08:38	triyo	The variables T and NIL are permanently assigned the values T and NIL, and NIL is the name of the null list ().
08:41	opqdonut	except in clojure () (the empty list) is not nil but the empty sequence is nil
08:47	leo2007	To use clojure well, does one have to know Java (some basics)?
08:47	triyo	,(if '() "yes, nil" "no, not nil")
08:47	clojurebot	"yes, nil"
08:48	opqdonut	i think you got those the wrong way around
08:48	triyo	oops :)
08:48	triyo	yup
08:48	leonid	,(nil? '())
08:48	clojurebot	false
08:48	leonid	,(= nil '())
08:48	clojurebot	false
08:48	triyo	that better.
08:49	triyo	so what does the def for nil look like?
08:49	leonid	,(nil? (seq []))
08:49	clojurebot	true
08:50	leonid	still confused about lists and sequences
08:51	raek	leo2007: imho, you should at least know about the way java programs are structured (packages, classes, fields, methods, nested classes, et.c.) and how you access these with the interop syntax
08:52	raek	so that you can read the javadoc for a java library and write clojure code that uses that library
08:52	leo2007	raek: thanks.
08:53	dnolen	leo2007: I barely know any of those things and I've been using Clojure for 3 years :P but then I don't rely on that kind of interop much.
08:53	raek	but you also need to know about a few java classes, mainly the I/O ones
08:53	leo2007	dnolen: good to know ;)
08:53	triyo	Additionally, you want to know how to interpret the java stack traces that clojure produces up on exceptions
08:53	leo2007	I think I'll pick up some Java.
08:54	Menthy	LauJensen: is the SQL IN operator supposed to be working in ClojureQL 1.0 ? Looking at sources I was expecting (select (table :authors) (in :name ["John" "Luke" "Mark" "Matthew" ])) to work..
08:54	dnolen	leo2007: if you intend to use Java libs a lot, yeah you gotta learn some Java. But there's a lot of interesting work to do w/o Java libs.
08:54	raek	so it can be a good idea to look around in the java.io and java.net packages
08:55	leo2007	OK. I think I will.
08:59	leo2007	raek: I'd like to get a notice when you finish.
09:09	leo2007	after running ant in clojure, I see two jars: clojure-1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar and clojure.jar
09:09	leo2007	are they the same?
09:19	Menthy	leo2007: Usually in IDE's clojure.jar is a built in clojure version used as default by the clojure plugin of your IDE. I doubt they're the same.
09:21	vinzent_	hm, can somebody explain me what's the essense of the noir? it looks like its defpage is the same as compojure's GET\POST etc macros, defpartial is hiccup's defhtml... am I missing something?
09:31	leo2007	in short, what exactly is Leiningen?
09:32	vinzent_	the build tool for clojure
09:33	Menthy	leo2007: Leiningen is a dependency management and build tool. It's used to download libraries & the libraries they depend on, and to build clojure projects (generate executable jars)
09:34	Menthy	Leiningen itself leans heavily on similar java tools called Maven (for dependencies) & ant (for building)
09:35	leo2007	Anyway, so in order to run swank-clojure, it has to be added to a project?
09:38	ejackson	anybody got a second to review a blog post on AJAX queries in Clojurescript for me ?
09:38	Menthy	leo2007: depends if you want to run it in your project, or if you want to use it in your editor/IDE to develop projects. If the latter, what is your current or intended development setup ? (OS, editor/ide) ?
09:39	leo2007	osx, emacs,
09:44	ejackson	oh well.... i hope I guessed correctly. I'm sure I'll be swiftly punished if not :)
09:44	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: i'd review it
09:45	ejackson	http://boss-level.com/?p=119
09:45	ejackson	thank you ordnungswidrig
09:46	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: after deriving functional test cases from requirements all day, I need a break to reanimate my brain
09:46	solussd	how do I turn the string "{'a' 2}" into a clojure map?
09:46	ejackson	ordnungswidrig: oh dear lord, that sounds horrific.
09:46	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: test cases for gulp manual execution
09:48	Menthy	leo2007: not much experience with emacs, I'm new to clojure coming from the Java side as opposed to lisp. Took me a fair bit to find a workable IDE/REPL without having to resort to Emacs
09:48	triyo	I have a strange behavior when including (:require-macros [myns.mymac :as mymac]) in my CLJS script. I get an error at runtime that `mymac` is undefined.
09:49	Menthy	solussd: (println (read-string "{\"a\" 2}"))
09:50	triyo	Is there something specific that one needs to do to call the macro in the referenced macro module I wish to use?
09:52	solussd	Menthy, the string is of the form "{'a' 2}" and read-string turns it into {a 2}. Is there a way to preserve the single-quoted a?
09:53	solussd	erm, or a double quoted "a"
09:53	vinzent_	solussd, replace all ' -> " in the string :)
09:53	solussd	i want strings mapped to integers
09:54	solussd	but then when I try to turn it into a map I lose the double quotes.
09:54	solussd	(using read-string)
09:54	Menthy	solussd: ,(read-string "{\"a\" 2}")
09:54	solussd	,(read-string "{\"a\" 2}")
09:54	clojurebot	{"a" 2}
09:55	solussd	my repl must not be feeling well
09:55	solussd	ah.. my bad. thanks!
09:56	Menthy	solussd: Probably pprinting the string contents only. yw
09:59	crazyFox	Menthy: so which IDE/REPL do u use now?
10:00	Menthy	crazyfox: IntelliJ Idea & LaClojure + Leiningen plugins
10:00	crazyFox	ah. never looked at that so far...
10:00	Menthy	crazyfox: There were some problems with that combination and environment variables not being put into REPL, but they've been fixed now
10:03	leo2007	Menthy: I can understand that ;)
10:03	Menthy	crazyfox: Tried Netbeans & Enclojure , Eclipse & CounterClockWise and IntelliJ IDEA (community edition) & LaClojure, and found the latest the easiest to work with when using Leiningen
10:03	triyo	I disabled my mouse and learned Emacs + slime + swank-clojure 3 years ago.
10:03	triyo	There where not any IDEs bck then
10:04	triyo	for clojure dev.
10:04	triyo	7 more years of emacs and I'll be a novice ;)
10:04	leo2007	I am already using slime. So would like to configure it to cover clojure too.
10:05	crazyFox	i am hesitant to start with emacs. it just seems soo big to me
10:05	triyo	If you dev on a Mac, there is a cheat. Run Aquamacs to easy in to Emacs
10:06	leo2007	triyo: how to start a standalone clojure swank server ?
10:06	triyo	lein swank, if you run leinigen
10:06	Menthy	Same here, just checking out clojure is pretty mindbending up till now, let alone having to use a completely new editor & hotkeys
10:07	crazyFox	triyo: i dont posess a Mac. Unfortunately shall i say?
10:08	triyo	crazyFox: yup, sorry to hear that ;)
10:08	leo2007	triyo: I have the script lein.
10:09	crazyFox	im going to try out clooj today. see how it feels...
10:09	triyo	Aquamacs runs Emacs under the hood. So you can do all you can do in Emacs with an addition to key bindings for Mac. So for instance.. cmd-key + s will save the file as expected instead of doing ctrl+x, ctrl+s to save.
10:10	triyo	leo2007: ok so in your project.clj file add -> :dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.4.0-SNAPSHOT"]]
10:10	triyo	and then from command line run `lein swank`
10:11	leo2007	I run lein and it downloaded this file leiningen-1.6.1-standalone.jar
10:11	triyo	after few second it will launch the server listening on default port 4005
10:11	triyo	did you follow the installation instruction in https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/README.md?
10:13	triyo	the readme has everything you need to know to install leiningen and get started
10:13	leo2007	triyo: it didn't mention the leiningen-1.6.1-standalone.jar thing
10:14	triyo	Ok maybe I'm missing a part of the dialog. Why do you need the standalone jar?
10:14	leo2007	triyo: it keeps downloading itself
10:15	triyo	So you followed the installation instructions as the per the readme?
10:15	leo2007	every time I launch `lein' it says Downloading Leiningen now...
10:16	triyo	hmm
10:16	leo2007	triyo: not much to follow, it is just a short paragraph.
10:16	triyo	So you run `lein self-install`
10:16	triyo	?
10:17	leo2007	sure.
10:17	vinzent_	maybe some problem with permissions?
10:17	Menthy	When you run "lein self-install" it downloads the jar and places it in a user dir. However, if you haven't got HTTP_PROXY and HTTPS_PROXY setup, it can't download the jar but creates an empty jar file in that directory
10:18	Menthy	(at least that happened to me on Windows)
10:18	triyo	There should be a .m2/ dir in your home dir
10:18	leo2007	why do I need to set up proxy?
10:18	leo2007	there is .m2
10:18	triyo	with the downloaded files in relevant sub dirs
10:18	Menthy	If you're behind a proxy, that is.
10:19	leo2007	getting this error: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/10717
10:20	triyo	Hmm can't find the clojure.jar on classpath I'd guess based on the msg
10:22	leo2007	triyo: so the installation is too brief for someone who doesn't know java.
10:23	triyo	leo2007: well the problem here is that this is not suppose to happen.
10:23	leo2007	I have clojure/ and swank-clojure/ in the same directory
10:23	leo2007	both are git repos cloned from github
10:23	triyo	Leiningen doesn't need clojure in place when installing itself. It probably downloads clojure first and then bootstrap it, but for some reason fails to locate it on classpath
10:25	triyo	I'm no leiningen expert thought. Man to chat to is technomancy
10:25	triyo	He is usually on this list
10:25	triyo	`chat`
10:26	triyo	*though
10:30	leo2007	triyo: thanks though. I guess I'll have to wait for technomancy to show up.
10:32	triyo	sorry I couldn't help any further.
10:55	raek	leo2007: which lein version are you using? stable or snapshot?
10:56	leo2007	raek: how to check if it is stable or devel?
10:56	raek	leo2007: what was the URL of the script that you downloaded?
10:57	leo2007	LEIN_VERSION="1.6.1"
10:58	raek	i.e. did you download https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/raw/stable/bin/lein or https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/bin/lein ?
11:00	raek	leo2007: does your internet connection have a "captive portal" or something else that might intercept HTTP requests?
11:01	leo2007	raek: possible I am in China where many sites are blocked by the government.
11:01	raek	you could try removing everything in .m2 and run "lein self-install" again
11:01	leo2007	raek: it is the stable version.
11:01	raek	ok, good.
11:02	leo2007	I am trying that.
11:02	raek	btw, you don't need to clone any git repos unless you are making changes in code
11:03	leo2007	rake: I run lien self-install and it finishes.
11:03	leo2007	I can find a file leiningen-1.6.1-standalone.jar in the dir the script is invoked.
11:04	leo2007	nothing in .lein or .m2
11:04	raek	weird
11:04	leo2007	it is
11:04	leo2007	I use rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.3.50.1 (Mac OS X 10.6.8)
11:04	raek	maybe you have an old version of wget installed
11:04	leo2007	no
11:04	raek	leo2007: which OS are you using?
11:04	leo2007	I have no wget just curl from osx
11:05	leo2007	osx
11:05	gtrak`	hmm, I'm trying to log something to the swank repl (using c.c.logging) during C-c C-, testing, but nothing shows up on the repl except the stacktrace from the test. What could I be missing?
11:05	raek	leo2007: I've heard that some version of curl on OS X causes problems
11:06	leo2007	that is weird indeed.
11:06	leo2007	raek: is it possible to start swank without lein?
11:07	leo2007	I am happy to leave lein for later time.
11:07	raek	leo2007: see this thread: http://www.mail-archive.com/clojure@googlegroups.com/msg38722.html
11:08	leo2007	a blocked url here.
11:08	vinzent_	leo2007, maybe you'll be kucky with cake? it's a leiningen analogue
11:09	raek	leo2007: I would suggest fixing curl instead of skipping lein, since the latter will make lots of clojure development stuff uneccesarily complicated
11:09	leo2007	raek: but the curl in OSX works just fine for many other things in the past few years.
11:10	raek	leo2007: what about this one: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/8884666f2913f725/534799708df0e8dc?lnk=gst#534799708df0e8dc
11:11	raek	but maybe this is an unrelated problem
11:11	leo2007	raek: leiningen is successfully downloaded: -rw-r--r-- 1 leo staff 8.9M 8 Aug 23:04 leiningen-1.6.1-standalone.jar
11:11	raek	leo2007: so you don't get any .m2 directory in your home directory?
11:12	leo2007	raek: not from lein, I got one from running mvn
11:12	leo2007	.m2 is about 27M here
11:13	raek	leo2007: oh, sorry. the file should be installed in .lein/self-installs/
11:13	gtrak`	ah, nevermind, I found a way by throwing an exception with the string I need to see
11:13	raek	does it exist there?
11:14	leo2007	there is that dir but it is empty.
11:15	raek	leo2007: could you try to move the .jar-file there?
11:15	leo2007	done
11:16	raek	leo2007: the file should be downloaded to that place. can you open a leiningen issue for this? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues/new
11:16	leo2007	raek: seems to be running now.
11:17	raek	just write that the leiningen jar file gets downloaded to the current directory rather than .lein/self-installs/ and what OS and version of curl you use
11:17	raek	this is obviously a bug, and it would be great if it was reported so that it's not forgotten
11:18	leo2007	raek: done.
11:18	PPPaul	hello
11:19	PPPaul	i have a list of keywords and i want to use them as arguments to defstruct. suggestions?
11:19	leo2007	raek: thanks very much. Now I am connecting to swank.
11:19	PPPaul	should i use apply-macro?
11:19	raek	PPPaul: you have to write a macro that expands to the defstruct call you want
11:19	PPPaul	i am
11:20	PPPaul	my macro is getting confusing
11:20	raek	apply-macro should never be used, really
11:20	PPPaul	(defmacro def-csv-importer2 [table-name]
11:20	PPPaul	`(do
11:20	PPPaul	(defstruct ~(symbol (str table-name "-struct")) ~(symbol (str table-name "-fields" )))))
11:21	PPPaul	the 'table-names-field' is a list
11:21	leo2007	not quite, it connects to my Common Lisp.
11:21	raek	leo2007: how do you connect from emacs? M-x slime-connect?
11:21	PPPaul	apply is the function that i want, but maybe there is a better way to do it with macros
11:21	leo2007	raek: yeah,
11:22	raek	if you start a swank server on port 4005, and then conenct to that port with slime-connect, then you should not get Common Lisp
11:23	dnolen	PPPaul: you do know that defstruct is deprecated right?
11:23	PPPaul	oh
11:23	PPPaul	suggestions then? should i use a record?
11:23	leo2007	raek: this time, it connects to the right one.
11:23	dnolen	PPPaul: why do you want to use defstruct?
11:23	raek	PPPaul: the list of fields must be available at macro expansion time
11:23	PPPaul	cus i used it before for something similar
11:24	dnolen	PPPaul: it's recommended to use plain maps unless you see some specific advantage.
11:24	PPPaul	the list is made by the macro, or by anther macro... it's available
11:26	PPPaul	i'm using a struct because my data is well defined
11:26	raek	PPPaul: the macro must access that list and generate a defstruct form with the elements as arguments
11:26	PPPaul	i know that, i just don't know how to do that
11:26	PPPaul	i tried ~@(symbol... and got an error
11:27	vinzent_	dnolen, is it deprecated, really? it'd be nice to use it when you need just a map, but have to create similar maps in some places
11:27	PPPaul	which is why i thought i should use apply-macro
11:27	PPPaul	maybe i should look up record
11:27	dnolen	PPPaul: even if your data is well defined, you can probably still use a map.
11:27	vinzent_	(so you dont have to write {} and keys every time)
11:27	PPPaul	defstruct is a map
11:27	dnolen	PPPaul: just trying to sort what you think is the advantage in terms of functionality.
11:27	PPPaul	i don't think there is any
11:27	raek	PPPaul: (defmacro def-csv-importer2 [table-name] (let [args (deref (resolve (symbol (str table-name "-fields" ))))] (list* `defstruct (symbol (str table-name "-struct")) args)))
11:28	PPPaul	cept having less code
11:28	PPPaul	thanks
11:28	PPPaul	oooooh
11:28	PPPaul	i see
11:28	raek	but I don't know if I would recommend this approach...
11:28	PPPaul	i haven't used (list*.... before
11:28	raek	it feels very hackish
11:28	PPPaul	hmmm
11:29	raek	perhaps this would be cleaner if the macro could call the function that generates the field names instead of accesing a specially named var
11:29	PPPaul	i'm going to look up a different approach, since defstruct is deprecated
11:29	dnolen	vinzent_: it is deprecated. You can use defrecord now, but defrecord is more tedious to work with than just plain maps. Which is good. It encourages using defrecord only when you really need it.
11:30	PPPaul	i guess i want my macro to do too much
11:30	raek	plain maps are fine most of the time
11:30	PPPaul	i'm doing this as a way to learn macros
11:30	PPPaul	oh
11:30	PPPaul	what about deftype?
11:31	raek	it defines a new type, but it doesn't work as a map like a record does
11:31	PPPaul	ok
11:31	vinzent_	dnolen, yes, that's why I thought I can use defstruct for such purpose
11:31	raek	defrecord for new language features, defrecord for data
11:31	vinzent_	raek, yeah, it's just helps sometime to type less :)
11:31	PPPaul	so defrecord is a big difference from defstruct?
11:32	raek	yes, it participates in the whoe protocols thing
11:32	dnolen	vinzent_: PPPaul: if you're going to use defrecord as defstruct was intended, it's good for that.
11:32	dnolen	it only gets annoying when you start extending to protocols and interfaces.
11:33	raek	and each record field is a jvm class field, so the data is represented fairly compact
11:34	leo2007	raek: this elisp error seems slime upstream has changed something that causes this error: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/10721
11:34	leo2007	I am running slime 2011-07-03
11:36	raek	leo2007: from Known Issues of the Leiningen readme: "Also the official CVS version of SLIME is not supported; it often breaks compatibility with Clojure."
11:37	leo2007	raek: i see.
11:37	raek	slime does not have stabe releases, only snapshots
11:37	raek	iirc
11:38	raek	leo2007: but swank-clojure ships with a "matching" version of slime. this is the version that is used if you use the "clojure-jack-in" approach
11:39	raek	dunno if there is a convenient way of keeping your CL setup while using slime with clojure
11:40	raek	when you run M-x clojure-jack-in it evals the bundled slime.el file. maybe that will override your CL slime for that emacs session so that it works for clojure.
11:41	ordnungswidrig	It there something like drop-until?
11:41	leo2007	raek: yeah, it would a headache for common lisp.
11:42	leo2007	raek: it wonder why is that difficult to keep in sync with slime CVS, the protocol hasn't changed much.
11:42	ordnungswidrig	such that (drop-until #(> % 25) [10 20 30]) gives [20 30]
11:42	raek	could be worth a try to leave your CL slime setup as it is and use the clojure-jack-in approach to see if that works
11:43	ejackson	ordnungswidrig: a perverted drop-while ?
11:43	ordnungswidrig	ejackson: I need the item before the first item that drop-while would give me
11:43	ejackson	aaah
11:48	ordnungswidrig	,(let [[a b] (split-with #(>= 50 %) [10 20 30 35 40 50 60])] (concat [(last a)] b) )
11:48	clojurebot	(50 60)
11:48	ordnungswidrig	a little pervert but does the job
11:49	leo2007	raek: thanks.
11:49	raek	leo2007: did it work?
11:51	leo2007	raek: no but I can fix it later.
11:53	edw	Is there some established way to "symbolify" a map's (string) keys, or should I write up something de novo?
11:53	leo2007	most of my slime setup for other languages is gone.
11:53	leo2007	after swank-clojure loading its own slime.el
11:54	edw	Er, actually I'm interesting in keywordifying keys, not symbolifying them...
11:54	ejackson	ordnungswidrig: :)
11:58	raek	edw: http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_core/clojure.walk/keywordize-keys
11:59	edw	Thanks!
12:22	PPPaul	i'm trying to create records using lists from a file. i try this but it doesn't work (i've tried some variations too) (apply store-rec. [nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil])
12:23	hiredman	sotre-rec. is not a fn
12:23	PPPaul	i figured
12:24	PPPaul	what should i use instead?
12:24	PPPaul	ns.store-rec?
12:24	PPPaul	actually, i tried that and it didn't work
12:24	vinzent_	PPPaul, you can't, it's a special form
12:25	hiredman	vinzent_: no it isn't
12:25	PPPaul	so, how do i programmatically create records?
12:26	PPPaul	do i need to make a macro for doing that?
12:26	vinzent_	hiredman, then, mm... reader macros? Foo. -> (new Foo)? or what?
12:27	hiredman	vinzent_: only for (store-rec. ...) (... store-rec. ...) is nothing
12:27	PPPaul	so (new store-rec [nil nil....])?
12:27	vinzent_	ah, that's what i meant
12:28	PPPaul	i get a ctor error
12:29	PPPaul	(new store-rec [nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil nil]) -> No matching ctor found for class
12:29	vinzent_	PPPaul, i think you have to write wrapper function (in 1.2), (apply (fn [arg1 arg2] (Rec. arg1 arg2)) [...])
12:29	PPPaul	lol
12:30	PPPaul	that seems like a huge pain
12:30	PPPaul	is that fixed in 1.3?
12:31	PPPaul	cus if it is i'll use that instead
12:31	coopernurse	hi folks. can anyone suggest a sql db migration library? ideally one I can invoke from lein. I tried drift but got some puzzling ClassNotFound errors running the lein create-migration task. lobos looks good, but doesn't seem to be runnable from lein.
12:32	vinzent_	I've heard there is map->Foo and ->Foo fns in 1.3
12:32	vinzent_	PPPaul, also maybe there is something in java reflection api that'll help you
12:32	PPPaul	reflection api.... gah
12:32	dnolen	PPPaul: writing a wrapper function takes almost no code, you often want to have default fields, easier to just define your own ctor fn.
12:32	PPPaul	i don't want to touch java or interop right now
12:33	PPPaul	i am doing something super simple, i would rather it be pure clojure
12:33	PPPaul	this seems like basic functionality
12:34	vinzent_	coopernurse, you can write a lein task yourself, it shouldn't be too difficult
12:35	coopernurse	vinzent_: ok, I'll google that. I assume I can just write a .clj file in my project and somehow tell lein about it?
12:35	coopernurse	found it in the faq. "You can also include one-off tasks in your src/leiningen/ directory if they're not worth spinning off;" I will try that
12:36	triyo	It seems that only way to require a Clojure code in from the ClojureScript namespace is via :require-macros. Anyone know if this is true and if so, why macros and not standard functions too?
12:37	vinzent_	coopernurse, btw, if you'll write general-purpose lein task for lobos, i'd love to use it :)
12:37	coopernurse	vinzent_: heh, ok. looks like lobos doesn't have any notion of state -- so one would have to write something that stores which migrations have been applied. or am I missing something?
12:38	coopernurse	drift seems to be closer to what I'm after
12:38	PPPaul	has anyone here used records in clojure 1.3?
12:38	coopernurse	so it may be faster for me to try to troubleshoot the ClassNotFoundExceptions I'm getting
12:40	hiredman	PPPaul: look, you want to do something like (Foo. bar baz) where bar and baz are names the binding of which are delayed till runtime
12:40	hiredman	how do you do that?
12:40	vinzent_	coopernurse, it seems that currently lobos has only utilities to operate on tables - and that's all. let me google drift, haven't seem it...
12:40	coopernurse	vinzent_: https://github.com/macourtney/drift
12:41	vinzent_	thanks
12:41	PPPaul	yeah, how do i do that?
12:41	PPPaul	even the Foo. is created at runtime from a file def
12:41	PPPaul	that part is done via macros
12:42	vinzent_	PPPaul, macros are all about compile time
12:42	hiredman	in fact dnolen told you how to do it
12:42	PPPaul	i'm trying to get a function to read in a map and create a list of records from it
12:42	hiredman	(fn [bar baz] (Foo. bar baz))
12:42	PPPaul	the wrapper function seems really weird
12:43	hiredman	well, you want a fn right?
12:43	hiredman	apply takes a fn
12:43	PPPaul	i'm not giving 'Foo.' in my function
12:43	PPPaul	i'm given 'Foo'
12:44	dnolen	PPPaul: all these shenanigans could be avoid if you just used plain maps and fns ;)
12:44	hiredman	so you will need the macro that generates Foo to generate a make-foo fn and use that
12:44	PPPaul	(defn csv-file-to-record [csv-file record]
12:44	PPPaul	(->> (parse-csv-file csv-file)
12:44	PPPaul	(map #(apply (record)%),,,)))
12:44	hiredman	no
12:45	coopernurse	vinzent_: I'd be curious if you get the same error I did when trying drift out of the box
12:45	PPPaul	i think i'm not going to use records if i have to jump through hoops to do something simple like creating a new one without knowing it's name
12:46	coopernurse	I opened a github ticket with what I'm seeing.. pretty basic
12:47	vinzent_	coopernurse, ok, let me try that...
12:47	coopernurse	vinzent_: cool, thanks
12:47	PPPaul	i'm wondering that if i use clojure 1.3 i don't have to do all this BS with records (as in they are more complete)?
12:48	technomancy	why not stick with maps?
12:48	PPPaul	i was using maps
12:48	PPPaul	then someone told me defstruct was deprecated
12:48	PPPaul	so i switched
12:48	PPPaul	now i'm fucked
12:48	PPPaul	lol
12:49	PPPaul	why would records even exist if they don't work in such a common use-case?
12:49	technomancy	maps aren't defstructs
12:49	PPPaul	well
12:49	technomancy	maps are way simple
12:49	PPPaul	i thought that they were
12:49	PPPaul	structs are maps, no?
12:49	technomancy	meh
12:50	PPPaul	i just want my code to be simple and tiny
12:50	PPPaul	so, does anyone have experience using records in 1.3? are they better?
12:51	vinzent_	PPPaul, just use maps then!
12:51	lnostdal	maps are not defstruct
12:51	PPPaul	hmmm
12:52	PPPaul	ok
12:52	PPPaul	but from what i've seen defstruct was made to make certain things involving maps easier.... no?
12:52	dnolen	PPPaul: simple and tiny means using the highest level constructs - maps and functions. defrecord is lower-level and host-y.
12:52	dnolen	PPPaul: no, defstruct was about performance.
12:52	PPPaul	defstruct code looks pretty, though
12:53	PPPaul	defstruct work well for reading in a csv file
12:54	PPPaul	at least in terms of code simplicity
12:54	PPPaul	can i get the same code simplicity with maps?
12:54	vinzent_	coopernurse, it works here. the same project.clj, config with in-memory versions from the readme, lein create-migration foo throws no exceptions
12:54	coopernurse	vinzent_: interesting. what version of lein?
12:54	technomancy	PPPaul: it will be much simpler with maps
12:54	vinzent_	1.5.2
12:55	coopernurse	vinzent_: I'm on 1.6.1 - wonder if that matters
12:55	coopernurse	I'm reading the source to leiningen/create_migration.clj
12:55	PPPaul	ok, if i can't get my code working in an hour or so i'll do everything with maps. but i think it'll be more confusing cus i wont see my keys or values in the code
12:55	coopernurse	quite short, but a little over my head..
12:56	vinzent_	coopernurse, may bel the only way to know is to test it :) although I don't know how to setup properly different versions of leiningen...
12:57	lnostdal	the key-names will be the "function names", PPPaul .. if needed (if things become nested perhaps) you can just pass the maps around to functions which will deal with them "for you"
12:57	coopernurse	vinzent_: yes, I'm not sure either.
12:57	coopernurse	source file is here: https://github.com/macourtney/drift/blob/master/src/leiningen/create_migration.clj
12:58	coopernurse	I'm not sure what the `(do ... ) block means. not familiar with the backtick operator yet
12:58	PPPaul	yeah, i was just hoping that all of this junk related to making structs or records was done for me (in terms of programmable constructors) i had success with defstructs in the past, though
13:01	vinzent_	coopernurse, i think it's just evals the code in the context of the project. ` is allows kind of templating (unqoting some exprs). so it fails on requiring file... btw, it's no clear why not just write (require 'drift.generator)
13:01	coopernurse	vinzent_: figured out how to do multiple lein versions (quite easy) - copy the lein bash script to a new name and change the LEIN_VERSION at the top
13:01	coopernurse	vinzent_: sadly I'm still getting the same error with 1.5.2
13:02	coopernurse	vinzent_: not sure what's different about my environment.. I'll try his sample from the readme
13:02	coopernurse	maybe I'm fat fingering the deps or something
13:02	vinzent_	ok...
13:03	technomancy	coopernurse: that's not really a good way to switch lein versions
13:03	technomancy	better to grab bin/lein from a tag on github
13:03	coopernurse	technomancy: ok, thanks
13:03	coopernurse	just doing this for a quick test
13:06	coopernurse	vinzent_: success! I was invoking the 1.6.1 lein on my last command
13:06	coopernurse	so it appears the problem is lein 1.6.x compatibility
13:06	coopernurse	I'll update my github ticket, but this is a fine workaround for now
13:09	vinzent_	coopernurse, glad to hear :) btw, from the eval-in-project doc: "... If the form depends on any requires, put them in the init arg"
13:09	coopernurse	vinzent_: that's from the lein docs?
13:10	vinzent_	https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/compile.clj#L134
13:11	coopernurse	vinzent_: ah, very good.
13:14	vinzent_	so that was the "Gilardi Scenario" :)
13:18	coopernurse	vinzent_: heh, yes, it appears so now that I read Phil's article about it
14:00	coopernurse	lein new foo creates: src/foo/core.clj -- is there any difference/advantage to this vs creating src/foo.clj? is core.clj special in any way? (similar to __init__.py in python)?
14:00	Vinzent	it's just a convention
14:01	coopernurse	thanks
14:01	amalloy	Vinzent, coopernurse: that's not really true
14:02	Vinzent	why?
14:02	amalloy	core is not special in any way, but because we live in java it's not a good idea to have single-segment namespaces. you want at least one directory (and usually one is plenty) under src/ before you start adding source files
14:02	amalloy	java doesn't like the default pakcage, which is where stuff in src/foo.clj would end up
14:05	ibdknox	amalloy: I didn't know data.xml had something in it that would homogenize a bunch of vectors for me
14:06	amalloy	ibdknox: i added it a few weeks ago
14:06	Vinzent	ah, true - I just meant "core" isn't special
14:06	ibdknox	amalloy: sweet
14:06	ibdknox	amalloy: do you happen to have a version of data.xml that works in ClojureScript? :D
14:06	amalloy	hah, good point
14:06	ibdknox	hehe
14:07	ibdknox	what function does the homogenizing?
14:07	amalloy	the AsElements protocol, and sexps-as-fragment helper
14:08	amalloy	it's all defined in pure clojure with protocols, so you probably could just copy all the code before attribute/emit, which are the only ones dealing with java types
14:08	ibdknox	yeah, it looks like it
14:09	ibdknox	maybe we should just add a clojure.xml (maybe some other name) to cljs
14:09	amalloy	and hopefully those Element records would be more convenient for the client to use than generated DOM? of course they'll want DOM eventually, but a converter is easy
14:09	ibdknox	yeah
14:09	ibdknox	I agree
14:09	amalloy	lovely
14:09	ibdknox	I sent off my CA last week
14:10	ibdknox	hopefully I can contribute to ClojureScript soon
14:10	ibdknox	we should just drop something like this in there, because this would be useful in a ton of contexts
14:17	amalloy	ibdknox: i'm not really involved in cljs, but since i wrote it i could commit it to cljs for you if you can get anyone to agree on it
14:21	ibdknox	amalloy: they didn't approve me for Clojure-Dev, I assume because my CA hadn't arrived yet. So once I can actually get on there, I'll see what people have to say about it.
14:24	amalloy	~ca
14:24	amalloy	$whatis ca
14:24	lazybot	ca does not exist in my database.
14:24	amalloy	i hate you both
14:24	ibdknox	lol
14:25	hiredman	huh, I what clojurebot's problem is
14:26	amalloy	,1
14:26	amalloy	poor guy
14:27	ibdknox	lol, that was more than 24 hours ago
14:27	amalloy	ibdknox: he's been repeating that set for a while
14:28	hiredman	~ca
14:28	clojurebot	CA is Contributor Agreement: http://clojure.org/contributing
14:28	amalloy	we also got a nice "(notice) null"
14:28	ibdknox	haha
14:28	ibdknox	he's sick :(
14:28	hiredman	if you'll notice between those notices the bot was restarted
14:28	amalloy	hiredman: really? i saw those twice last night, and once just now
14:29	hiredman	right
14:29	amalloy	okay
14:29	hiredman	(how do people irc with join/parts turned off?)
14:29	amalloy	i only have so much vertical space :P
14:29	hiredman	the bot just keeps the set of stuff scraped from the clojars website in memory
14:30	amalloy	right, i understand
14:30	hiredman	the null thing was a bug exposed once the bug that stopped the clojars notices from being sent was fixed
14:31	technomancy	hiredman: tab completion replaces part messages
14:32	technomancy	it'd be semi-nice I guess if you could just hide them by default instead of having them not written to the buffer at all, but meh
15:02	vertegal	/leave
15:11	gtrak``	It's not a big deal at all to me, but just curious, why does the clojure compiler seem so slow? I wonder if it's just so much more dense than java and it has to figure out all the dynamic stuff
15:14	amalloy	i wonder what tests you've done to make you think that the clojure compiler is slower than javac
15:15	gtrak``	just subjective ones, not trying to incite anything, I really like clojure :-)
15:18	gtrak``	I guess I could profile it, but maybe you know off the top of your head what dominates the time?
15:19	amalloy	i don't think it does, though. i mean, compiling a single java file might be faster than compiling core.clj
15:20	amalloy	at any rate the main bottleneck is (i think) that core.clj bootstraps the whole language out of compiler primitives every time you start it up
15:20	gtrak``	does it have to do that more than once during an AOT phase in lein?
15:22	gtrak``	it might just be stuff around it more than the compiler itself, compiling one file with C-c C-k is instant
15:24	crazyFox	,(for [y (range 3) x (range y)] [y x])
15:24	clojurebot	([1 0] [2 0] [2 1])
15:24	crazyFox	is this a bug in for?
15:24	hiredman	no
15:25	crazyFox	why dosnt y start at 0?
15:25	hiredman	,(range 0)
15:25	clojurebot	()
15:25	MasseR	crazyFox: Ending is exclusive
15:25	MasseR	Start is inclusive
15:25	MasseR	,(range 0 2)
15:25	clojurebot	(0 1)
15:26	MasseR	No 2
15:26	crazyFox	i know. that not my point.
15:26	crazyFox	(range 3)
15:26	crazyFox	,(range 3)
15:26	clojurebot	(0 1 2)
15:26	crazyFox	it starts with 0
15:26	crazyFox	but my y up there starts with 1 instead of 0
15:27	MasseR	Oh, sorry I read you wrong
15:27	amalloy	crazyFox: because when y is 0, x == (range y) == ()
15:27	amalloy	so no iterations happen
15:27	crazyFox	ah!
15:27	crazyFox	thank you for pointing that out
15:28	gtrak``	,(for [y (range 0 3) x (range 0 y)] [y x])
15:28	clojurebot	([1 0] [2 0] [2 1])
15:28	technomancy	clojurebot: lua called, it wants its crazy one-indexed functions back
15:28	clojurebot	functions are maps
15:29	amalloy	technomancy: imo java.util.Date is enough index-confusion for a whole language
15:30	gtrak``	,(for [y (range 0 3) x (range 0 (inc y))] [y x])
15:30	clojurebot	([0 0] [1 0] [1 1] [2 0] [2 1] ...)
15:30	technomancy	oh man don't get me started
15:31	technomancy	the Clojure compiler should ideally issue warnings for every instance of java.util.Date that it sees.
15:31	technomancy	actually, javac should too
15:31	amalloy	haha
15:31	crazyFox	gtrak'': its ok. i figured it out by now :D
15:31	gtrak``	just trying for myself
15:31	crazyFox	oh sure
15:33	amalloy	technomancy: so we should use TimeUUID instead?
15:33	technomancy	definitely
15:35	mjg123	Good evening
15:36	mjg123	I would like to split my clojurescript app up, it's too big for one file
15:36	mjg123	so I create core.cljs and ui.cljs
15:36	mjg123	and in core, I (:require ui :as ui), but it won't compile
15:36	mjg123	is there a working demo somewhere?
15:37	mjg123	I can see the twitterbuzz source, and I seem to have the same setup. But I don't know what command is used to build then.
15:37	amalloy	mjg123: your require syntax is wrong
15:38	amalloy	doublecheck against twitterbuzz (or any clojure program)
15:38	mjg123	yes - sorry - I typed it into irc wrong. I have the same code as twitterbuzz
15:40	mjg123	it looks like this: https://gist.github.com/1132536
15:43	mjg123	I added a description of what I'm doing to build and what the error is to https://gist.github.com/1132536
15:47	mjg123	is there a need for the namespace structure (game.ui) to match the directory structure (game/ui) ?
15:48	Chousuke	mjg123: yes
15:49	Chousuke	foo.bar corresponds to foo/bar.clj
15:49	mjg123	Chousuke: then that is the problem :)
15:49	mjg123	Ahhhh
15:49	mjg123	Yes, thansk
16:14	malkomalko	is there anyway to force clojure to not give me back a large float in exponential form?
16:17	hiredman	malkomalko: what do you mean?
16:17	malkomalko	999222333111.23 => 9.9922233311123E11
16:17	malkomalko	I'd like 999222333111.23
16:18	hiredman	so you'd like to change the format of how it is printed out?
16:18	hiredman	the format is what you are looking to change?
16:18	malkomalko	yes
16:19	hiredman	well, perhaps the `format` function?
16:28	amalloy	,(format "%.15f" 999222333111.23)
16:28	clojurebot	"999222333111.230000000000000"
16:28	amalloy	malkomalko: fiddle with it, but something like that
16:29	malkomalko	right, but that'd give us a string, and you can't add strings.. if we parse that again, I think we'd end up where we started no?
16:29	hiredman	9.9922233311123E11 is a string
16:29	amalloy	what. this question makes no sense re the last question
16:29	hiredman	numbers have no format
16:30	malkomalko	that number is in a map that is being used to generate a json string
16:31	malkomalko	the json-string library is outputting in exponential
16:31	hiredman	that is a bug in that library
16:31	malkomalko	just wanted to know if there was a way to tell it to print without it, is all
16:32	hiredman	json encoding has nothing to do with clojure's printing
16:32	st3fan	,(* 2 21)
16:32	clojurebot	42
16:32	st3fan	heh awesome
16:32	hiredman	and fyi, that number may be too large to represent as a javascript number (so encoding it as json may not be a good idea)
16:32	amalloy	hiredman: how is that a bug? doesn't json use/support the same exponential format?
16:33	hiredman	amalloy: no idea, there are a lot of json readers out there
16:43	lobotomy	stupid question time: what's the best way of using a library such as math.combinatorics? just pull it from git and copy to wherever?
16:46	dnolen	lobotomy: if it's deployed to maven central it's easy but I don't think math.combinatorics is yet.
16:52	lobotomy	so just pull from git then?
16:53	dnolen	lobotomy: you could use the version from 1.2.0 contrib.
16:54	dnolen	lobotomy: are you not using lein/cake?
16:54	lobotomy	hmm, i'm using leiningen yes
16:54	dnolen	[org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.2.0"] I would think then.
16:55	Somelauw	Are there any plans to convert clojure to c or native code or is that considered a bad idea?
16:56	amalloy	Somelauw: never
16:56	Raynes	No known plans. Not to say it's completely off the table forever and evers. Sometime in the next 300 years or so, I'm sure someone will try.
16:56	Somelauw	Why never?
16:57	technomancy	you need a runtime
16:57	Somelauw	What do you need a runtime for?
16:57	dnolen	Somelauw: Clojure's design assumes high performance GC.
16:58	Somelauw	You can use c libraries right?
16:59	dnolen	Somelauw: hmm ... though ClojureScript does greatly relax what is expected from the host.
16:59	dnolen	noone expects really incredible performance from JavaScript tho...
17:00	Somelauw	Is it really hard to convert clojure to c without preserving performance. I know haskell can be compiled really efficiently and haskell should benefit from good GC as well, I think.
17:02	dnolen	Somelauw: noone's saying it can't be done ... rather how much work is involved and is it worth the effort?
17:03	dnolen	ClojureScript seems adequate w/ a lot less effort.
17:04	Somelauw	I am not great at javascript, but maybe. Can clojurescript also be ran serverside?
17:05	Raynes	Yes, with nodejs.
17:05	Raynes	But ClojureScript isn't actually working with nodejs at the moment, given http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJS-43 so it might be a bit before you can try it out.
17:05	Somelauw	Okay, I will check it out.
17:48	jhickner	should this work in clojurescript? -- (js/console.log "foo")
17:48	jhickner	it looks like it compiles to this: goog.global['console']['log'].call(null, "foo")
17:49	jhickner	but I get an Illegal invocation error when running it in the browser
17:54	dnolen	jhickner: did you try (.log js/console "foo") ?
18:01	jhickner	@dnolen that works! thanks
18:13	leonid_	Rank Username Problems Solved
18:13	leonid_	75 leonid 75
18:13	leonid_	consistency
18:15	amalloy	chuckle
18:15	amalloy	leonid_: time to change your username
18:16	maacl	Shouldn't "{:x1 1}" and (pr-str {:x1 1}) be the same in ClojureScript? if I try to pass to js/encodeURIComponent I get differing results.
18:41	ibdknox	maacl: I'm pretty sure that CLJS represents keyword using a different symbol
18:41	ibdknox	it's not a colon
18:41	ibdknox	so those wouldn't be the same
18:41	ibdknox	internally that is
18:42	ibdknox	maacl: nm, I read that wrong
18:42	Raynes	ibdknox: It's killing me: what is the meaning of your IRC nickname?
18:43	ibdknox	haha
18:43	maacl	ibdknox: Ah, tricky - do you know of a cljs function that produces the expected result?
18:44	ibdknox	Raynes: it's from long ago in high school, IB = International Baccalaureate, D=dork, Knox = a name I like lol
18:44	Raynes	Interesting.
18:46	ibdknox	maacl: I misread your original statement, that should work. What are you getting instead?
18:49	ibdknox	this works at the REPL
18:49	ibdknox	(= (pr-str {:x1 1 }) "{:x1 1}")
18:49	ibdknox	oh
18:50	ibdknox	encodeURIComponent escapes the ":" character
18:50	maacl	ibdknox: "{:x1 1}" > %7B%3Ax1%201%7D whereas (pr-str {:x1 1}) gives %7B%22%5CxEF%5CxB7%5Cx90'x1%22%201%7D
18:51	maacl	ibdknox: yes, which is need if you want to pass clojure form in a query string
18:52	ibdknox	maacl: hm, that is odd. You probably do this as a post though.
18:53	ibdknox	maacl: just to make sure nothing gets lost in translation
18:54	maacl	ibdknox: but the problem arises before I submit it...
18:54	ibdknox	maacl: do you have the latest cljs?
18:54	maacl	ibdknox: I believe so
18:55	ibdknox	ClojureScript:cljs.user> (js/encodeURIComponent (pr-str "{:x1 1}")) => "%22%7b%3ax1%201%7d%22"
18:56	maacl	ibdknox: hm, very strange - I get the same at the REPL
18:56	maacl	ibdknox: must look elsewhere
19:13	sjl	Does Clojure have a way to replace a subsequence of a Vector? Something like Python's list slicing (lst[10:20] = [1,2,3]), but immutable?
19:32	arohner	technomancy: M-x slamhound has a high probability (75%+) of making Emacs completely unresponsive. Have you heard of any issues like that?
19:34	arohner	using it from the repl appears to work fine
19:34	technomancy	arohner: there are some unresolved infinite loops in the elisp, but C-g has been able to take care of everything I've run into so far
19:35	arohner	technomancy: C-g works unreliably for me. and sometimes, the ns declaration that is added after a C-g is different from what (reconstruct ...) returns
19:36	technomancy	hm; I haven't seen that.
19:36	arohner	technomancy: it appears to be differences of whitespace
19:37	technomancy	oh, sure
19:37	arohner	spaces missing, etc
19:37	technomancy	it performs some cleanups
19:37	amalloy	sjl: no. if the two slices are the same size, you can do it with multiple assocs
19:37	technomancy	I haven't been using it as much as I'd like, primarily due to the pretty-printing being crap.
19:37	arohner	technomancy: yes, but I'll see [hiccup.page-helpers:only[link-to]]
19:37	amalloy	but if the slices are different sizes, you just can't do it efficiently, so you might as well use concat on seqs raterh than messing with vectors
19:37	technomancy	arohner: hm; haven't seen that myself, but it doesn't surprise me too much
19:37	sjl	amalloy: Yeah, that's what I'm going to do I guess. I was wondering if there was something that would be faster. Seems like a lot of assocs if it's a long subsequence.
19:37	technomancy	hopefully after strange loop I'll be able to spend some time polishing the pretty-printing
19:38	ibdknox	technomancy: you presenting at strange loop?
19:38	technomancy	ibdknox: yeah, on Emacs
19:39	amalloy	sjl: vectors are optimized for use cases different from that
19:39	amalloy	c'est la vie
19:39	ibdknox	technomancy: awesome, good luck with that. :)
19:39	technomancy	thanks
19:39	sjl	amalloy: Is there another data structure better for it? I could use a map, but it seems like a waste since all the keys are just sequential integers
19:40	amalloy	i'm pretty sure finger trees can be built with fast concat and fast indexed-lookup, if you're desperate for performance on a large sequence
19:40	sjl	Hmm, I guess I'll just use the multiple assocs for now and if it turns out it's a bottleneck I'll look into changing it
19:40	sjl	Thanks
19:41	amalloy	sjl: if you don't need fast indexed lookup, concat is probably fine
19:42	amalloy	together with take, drop, and all the other lazy-seq stuff
19:43	sjl	amalloy: Indexed lookup is definitely what I need (it's an array of blocks representing Minecraft chunks, and I'll need to index into it to get values for specific blocks)
20:11	gfrlog	every time I want to push a jar to clojars I have to change the public key (since I never push from the same computer twice in a row); that's annoying in and of itself, but now even that's not working...
20:12	gfrlog	when I try to update the public key it says my username is already taken :\|
20:12	hiredman	you should use an ssh agent
20:12	gfrlog	to have the same key on all my computers?
20:13	hiredman	no
20:13	hiredman	well, maybe
20:13	amalloy	gfrlog: i have the same key on all my computers. i'm sure there's something a little insecure about it, esp as hiredman seems uneasy, but it's simple and makes sense
20:13	hiredman	shrug, I guess I don't yuse other computers except via ssh and sshagent forwards my key
20:14	gfrlog	in every other context involving keys, using multiple keys is not an issue
20:14	technomancy	clojars could definitely use some more features
20:14	hiredman	gfrlog: clojars is open source, send a pull request
20:15	gfrlog	hiredman: my primary complaint is about the key-changing bug
20:15	gfrlog	not the multiple keys feature
20:15	amalloy	conceptually, at least, you "should" have the same key. the key is supposed to identify you, not a computer
20:15	hiredman	gfrlog: sure, send a pull request to fix it
20:15	gfrlog	amalloy: don't like pseudonyms?
20:16	amalloy	gfrlog: i don't introduce myself to everyone i meet with a different name :P
20:16	gfrlog	hiredman: what? just because I didn't pay for clojars means I can't expect people to fix it for me?
20:16	hiredman	amalloy: or assuming some kind of pki, they keys you use should all be signed by your "actual" key
20:16	hiredman	gfrlog: expect all you want
20:16	gfrlog	:)
20:17	amalloy	hiredman: also reasonable, though probably too complicated for me
20:17	hiredman	I've never changed my key on clojars so it's unlikely that I will bother fixing it
20:17	amalloy	yeah, i didn't even know it was an option. why would you want to
20:17	hiredman	that I don't want to go anywhere near the web ui
20:18	gfrlog	well even if I decide I like the one-key idea, I'm stuck at the moment because I doubt I have access to the key currently registered
20:18	gfrlog	at least for the next week or so
20:19	hiredman	gfrlog: https://github.com/ato/clojars-web/issues
20:19	amalloy	"but officer, my house has lots of keys in it! if you let me into my house, i'll be happy to show you the key there to prove it's my house!"
20:19	gfrlog	hiredman: thanks, I was wondering where the repo was
20:24	bortreb	I remember an excellent video posted to the mailing list some time ago about "solving the expression problem with clojure" does anyone know where that video is?
20:40	kencausey	bortreb: are you sure it was a video? http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-clojure-protocols/
20:41	bortreb	it was in fact a video. I love the paper but I wish I could find the video :(
20:41	bortreb	maybe he took it down after publishing the paper?
20:41	kencausey	this was linked at the bottom: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Expression-Problem
20:41	dnolen	hmmm … pattern matching on primitive arrays could fun ...
20:42	dnolen	s/fun/be fun
20:42	lazybot	<dnolen> hmmm … pattern matching on primitive arrays could be fun ...
20:42	hiredman	on ByteBuffers
20:42	dnolen	hiredman: I'm assuming there are methods to pull them apart? (never used 'em)
20:43	bortreb	thanks kencausey -- that's a great video, but the one I'm looking for is by Stuart Sierra, the same one who wrote the paper.
20:43	hiredman	dnole: yes
20:44	hiredman	getInt, getFloat, getChar, etc
20:44	dnolen	hiredman: what about sub ByteBuffers ?
20:44	hiredman	sub bytebuffer?
20:44	dnolen	like subvec say
20:45	hiredman	ah, you can slice them
20:45	dnolen	very interesting ...
20:45	dnolen	hiredman: I'm thinking about reserving vector notation for anything that supports random access + subvec/slicing.
20:45	hiredman	the api is very mutable
20:45	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
20:45	hiredman	~botsnack
20:45	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
20:47	kencausey	bortreb: Well, he doesn't mention it on his site while he does mention the developerworks article, so it seems unlikely.
20:47	dnolen	hiredman: it's interesting to me to be able to support rest notation w/o discarding the type.
20:48	hiredman	ah, yes
20:48	raek	bortreb: there are some videos here: http://alexott.net/en/clojure/video.html
20:48	hiredman	http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Clojure-Expression-Problem
20:48	raek	but the only one I found was the one by Chris Houser that kencausey and hiredman linked
20:49	dnolen	hiredman: so if you bring the type into the protocol, you can blast through data structure w/ pattern matching.
20:51	bortreb	I guess he either took it down for some reason or my memory is faulty. thanks anyway!
20:55	gfrlog	it is difficult to debug clojars without access to the database :/
20:55	hiredman	you can get a dump of the db
20:56	gfrlog	I guess it wouldn't have anything sensitive
20:56	hiredman	it is sanitized
20:57	gfrlog	hiredman: where would I get such a thing?
20:57	hiredman	the readme
20:57	gfrlog	thx
20:58	gfrlog	hiredman: oh that's a static snapshot?
20:58	gfrlog	I'm not sure that would help me debug my username which used to work but now doesn't
20:58	gfrlog	particularly I'm wondering if my username is also a group name
21:00	sjl	Ugh, I think I'm going to have to use a byte-array instead of a Vector of Integer objects for memory.
21:01	hiredman	have you see primitive vectors?
21:01	sjl	hiredman: No… those sound promising.
21:01	hiredman	(require 'clojure.gvec)
21:01	hiredman	,(require 'clojure.gvec)
21:01	clojurebot	nil
21:02	hiredman	,(doc clojure.gvec/vector-of)
21:02	clojurebot	Huh?
21:02	hiredman	jerk
21:02	sjl	,(doc vector-of)
21:02	clojurebot	"([t] [t & elements]); Creates a new vector of a single primitive type t, where t is one of :int :long :float :double :byte :short :char or :boolean. The resulting vector complies with the interface of vectors in general, but stores the values unboxed internally. Optionally takes one or more elements to populate the vector."
21:03	hiredman	oh, I see, gvec is in clojure.core, but a seperate file
21:03	sjl	So is the overhead on (vector-of :byte) o(1) or o(length of vector)?
21:04	hiredman	no
21:04	sjl	(I'm storing vectors of ~32,000 items each)
21:04	hiredman	it is not an array (not just a blob of memory)
21:04	hiredman	it is still a persistent tree structure
21:05	sjl	Ah, hmm, I wonder if it would be worth it then.
21:06	gfrlog	when I create a new clojars account, changing the key works fine.
21:06	hiredman	shrug
21:06	gfrlog	ah ha -- I see my username listed as one of the groups that I'm in
21:06	gfrlog	so that IS the issue
21:07	gfrlog	now I don't know if that's an illegal state or not. I'm sure it's my fault somehow
21:07	hiredman	is that the issue?
21:08	gfrlog	hiredman: by looking at the code, I concluded that was one of three equally unlikely-seeming explanations
21:08	gfrlog	I had no reason to think any of them were possible
21:08	gfrlog	the code basically says "if your username is a group you cannot update your profile"
21:09	gfrlog	I don't know if it's intentional or not
21:09	gfrlog	nor do I know yet if I can fix it by just deleting the jar that caused it
21:10	gfrlog	(presumably the original intention of the code is to prevent _creating_ accounts that are the same as group names)
21:14	gfrlog	I think I know an acceptable fix. will code and request pull.
21:26	gfrlog	pull request sent
21:26	gfrlog	hiredman: thanks for the help
21:43	bortreb	is there a way to give a custom .toString for an object created via reify?
21:44	hiredman	,(.toString (reify Object (toString [_] "foo")))
21:44	clojurebot	"foo"
21:47	bortreb	right -- I forgot the [_] part. thanks!
21:56	amalloy	i've seen a video on the expression problem too. bortreb wasn't imagining it
21:58	kencausey	amalloy: You mean other than Chris Houser's Strangle Loop presentation?
21:58	gfrlog	I saw a halloway video where he talked about it a bit, but I doubt that's what anybody's thinking of
21:58	amalloy	kencausey: yes, it was one of the stuarts
21:59	kencausey	http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-gloverpodcast/#halloway
21:59	kencausey	that podcast? again that was linked at the bottom of the Mr. Sierra's article
22:00	kencausey	or perhaps http://vimeo.com/11236603 ?
22:02	amalloy	kencausey: maybe i'm wrong, and it was chouser after all
23:12	icey	I'm doing a tour of the Clojure web stack, and getting to the "(not quite) real time" app phase of things. What is the commonly used stack for comet / server push apps? I think it's Compojure / Ring + Aleph.. Anyone using ClojureScript on the client-side yet, or is it all hand-rolled js?
23:17	dnolen	icey: seems like quite a few folks using ClojureScript now. Aleph for coment / server push seems common.
23:19	icey	dnolen: do you know if many people are using aleph.websockets, or mostly streaming http? (not a ton of docs out there on it, so i'm just trying to get a feel of a common use case)
23:20	dnolen	icey: it's been a while since I used aleph, but using aleph for websockets was pretty straightforwards. agree on the docs situation - the aleph ML helpful I think.
23:21	icey	dnolen: awesome, thanks.
23:21	icey	dnolen: also - the pattern matching stuff you tweeted about earlier today looks awesome
23:21	dnolen	icey: thanks. it's a start. lotso stuff todo.
23:25	zmaril	If I wanted to learn how to think in lisp, what would be a good resource to read/use? Joy of Clojure and Programming Clojure are good introductions but they aren't quite doing it for me.
23:25	Scriptor	zmaril: reading the source for various functions helps
23:25	Scriptor	personally...I learned bits of haskell :p
23:26	icey	zmaril: it's not Clojure, but I enjoyed Practical Common Lisp
23:26	zmaril	Scriptor: I took a look at a The Haskell School of Expression and it looked like pure math by the end.
23:27	Scriptor	zmaril: eh, learn you a haskell was what I use
23:27	Scriptor	*used
23:27	zmaril	And that helps to understand functional programming then?
23:27	zmaril	icey: Thank you! This looks neat.
23:27	Scriptor	definitely, it devotes a good bit of text on how to think in a functional way
23:28	Scriptor	whenever it introduced a new function I'd try to implement it myself without looking at the answer and see how it compared
23:30	zmaril	Scriptor: Haskell it is then. Thank you!
23:31	Scriptor	no prob!