#clojure – 2011-07-20

2011-07-20

00:00	dnolen_	so far it seems like a pretty even split, but I agree, these points should probably be made in the tutorial.
00:01	amalloy	dnolen_: yes, i see. if the analogy to #s had been drawn, i wouldn't really object
00:03	DeusExPikachu	so is geto defined elsewhere? the naming seems generic although what it does seems specific
00:03	dnolen_	hopefully my talk on this gets accepted to the conj. Personally I found myself scratching my head reading The Reasoned Schemer, I didn't really understand until I read the implementation.
00:03	dnolen_	like rhickey's persistent data structures graphics, I'd like to make the same explaining exactly what happens in a core.logic program.
00:04	dnolen_	it's actually really freaking cool.
00:05	DeusExPikachu	dnolen_, I hope it does too, I want to see what cool things I do with it, as a side note, I understand that a significant portion of watson (IBM) was written in prolog
00:05	dnolen_	DeusExPikachu: it's not defined elsewhere, it's called geto because it's somewhat similar to get in Clojure.
00:08	DeusExPikachu	I like the use of wild cards and list destructuring to act like familiar first, rest recursion we see in functional programming
00:08	DeusExPikachu	for the definition of geto
00:09	DeusExPikachu	I wonder if that analogy should be explicit in the tutorial
00:09	dnolen_	DeusExPikachu: amalloy: technomancy: all good feedback. I'll direct ambrose to this chat.
00:12	DeusExPikachu	I think the author's description of what the function is supposed to accomplish would go a long way
00:14	DeusExPikachu	so who's going to be here 6:45 pm EST Wed?
00:15	dnolen_	DeusExPikachu: yes that's glaring omission - that geto is a relational goal for dealing with an associative data structure (vector of key/value pairs in this case)
00:15	dnolen_	DeusExPikachu: me.
00:16	brehaut	what is EST as UTC?
00:16	brehaut	-4?
00:16	scottj_	stu's "no comment" on cinc at a recent recorded talk and rhickey's questions about protocols making bootstrapping more difficult lead me to think it's cinc related
00:19	DeusExPikachu	what's cinc?
00:19	icey	DeusExPikachu: clojure in clojure
00:20	amalloy	brehaut: starts in 18 hours
00:20	brehaut	amalloy: thanks :)
00:20	amalloy	18:25 i guess
00:20	brehaut	10am new zealand time; thats achievable
00:21	DeusExPikachu	my roomate is always watching livestreams about starcraft, it will be nice for me to do it on something I enjoy for a change
00:22	DeusExPikachu	for future recommendations for streaming services, justin.tv seems to be a good host, I many livestreamers that switched for various reasons
00:24	cemerick	DeusExPikachu: where's "here"?
00:25	DeusExPikachu	cemerick, #clojure
00:34	kumarshantanu	Is this still a rumor that the talk is about CinC?
00:39	amalloy	so i discovered that reify, deftype, and the like fail silently if you specify a class twice: (reify Map (size [this] 0), Counted (count [this] 0), Map (keySet [this] nil))
00:41	amalloy	this because i was writing a macro to inject some automated implementations into your reify for you, and they collided. i ended up having to parse the reify body and unify everything for you; does anyone have an opinion about whether that would be a good behavior for reify to have by default?
00:46	technomancy	amalloy: reify wil also fail silently if you give it a fully qualified symbol as a local
00:47	amalloy	technomancy: not as a local, but as a function arg, i hope you mean? as a local would be extra-bizarre
00:47	technomancy	hm; you take local to mean let-bound only?
00:47	amalloy	technomancy: no, i don't. but local includes let-bound only
00:48	technomancy	oh, gotcha. yeah, I mean on parameter lists
00:48	amalloy	&(.count (reify clojure.lang.Counted (count [user/this] 1)))
00:48	lazybot	⇒ 1
00:49	amalloy	&(.keySet (reify java.util.Map (keySet [user/this] user/this)))
00:49	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: No such var: user/this
00:49	amalloy	technomancy: nah, my example just sucked
00:50	technomancy	aha
00:50	technomancy	http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-348
00:51	technomancy	not related except it may indicate that it's possibly intentional that reify doesn't stop you from doing stupid things I guess
00:52	amalloy	&(.size (reify Map (size [this] 0), Counted (count [this] 0), Map (keySet [this] nil)))
00:52	lazybot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: Counted in this context
00:52	amalloy	&(.size (reify java.util.Map (size [this] 0), clojure.lang.Counted (count [this] 0), java.util.Map (keySet [this] nil)))
00:52	lazybot	java.lang.AbstractMethodError: sandbox26573$eval28671$reify__28683.size()I
00:55	amalloy	technomancy: it's especially annoying, because reify does all this extra work to mess things up, then expands into a reify* that would have worked fine
00:55	amalloy	&(macroexpand '(reify java.util.Map (size [this] 0), clojure.lang.Counted (count [this] 0), java.util.Map (keySet [this] nil)))
00:55	lazybot	⇒ (reify* [clojure.lang.Counted java.util.Map] (count [this] 0) (keySet [this] nil))
01:04	technomancy	geez
01:05	amalloy	technomancy: on the plus side, this got me reading the compiler again, and i discovered that the compiler contains a reference to a very special symbol: static Symbol dummyThis = Symbol.intern(null,"dummy_this_dlskjsdfower");
01:06	amalloy	but it's only ever used in an unreachable code path: if (name != null) registerLocal((name == null) ? "dummy_this_dlskjsdfower" : name);
01:06	technomancy	man, languages without gensym crack me up
01:07	amalloy	technomancy: crypotgraphically-secure gensyms are important for code that makes it into core
01:09	technomancy	also: languages that force conditions to be boolean expressions. hilarious!
01:35	amalloy	blech. i was going to submit a simple patch that stops doing the extra parsing, but (extend) uses the same parser as reify, and it does need the extra work
01:53	amalloy	anyone know a good way to turn [:a 1, :b 2 3, :c :d 4] into {:a [1], :b [2 3], :c [], :d [4]}? that is, each keyword as a key, whose value is a seq of the numbers immediately after it?
01:54	amalloy	i wanted to do something with (partition 2 (partition-by keyword? coll)), but then a keyword with no numbers gets lumped together with the one after it
01:55	amalloy	maybe i'll farm the problem out to 4clojure; i'm sure someone will have a good answer
01:57	brehaut	amalloy: i settled on (juxt filter remove) for my not-pivot function yesterday; completely different result to what i was trying for but works fine
01:57	amalloy	ah
01:58	brehaut	i called it sieve but im not convinced its a good name
01:58	amalloy	brehaut: contrib calls it separate
01:58	brehaut	aha
01:58	amalloy	i think it's in seq-utils
01:59	brehaut	cheers
01:59	amalloy	brehaut: now come up with a name for the function i'm trying to get 4clojure to write
02:31	dbushenko	hi all!
04:02	dbushenko	lol :-) one more blub http://confluence.jetbrains.net/display/Kotlin/Welcome
05:34	vijaykiran	Hi .. I'm trying to understand ->> and -> macros. I think I understand what -> does (thanks to http://blog.fogus.me/2009/09/04/understanding-the-clojure-macro/), but seems like I don't get ->> can any one give me a simple example ..
05:34	kumarshantanu	vijaykiran: (->> [1 2 3 4 5 6] (map inc) (take 2))
05:35	kumarshantanu	,(->> [1 2 3 4 5 6] (map inc) (take 2))
05:35	clojurebot	(2 3)
05:35	kumarshantanu	->> puts the arg at the end
05:35	kumarshantanu	-> puts the arg at the first place
05:35	raek	vijaykiran: (-> x (f1 a b) (f2 c d)) is the same as (f2 (f1 x a b) c d) and (->> x (f1 a b) (f2 c d)) is the same as (f2 c d (f2 a b x))
05:43	vijaykiran	kumarshantanu, raek thanks!
08:23	khaliG	has someone here set up zeromq for clojure recently?
08:32	clgv	khaliG: you already read this blog entry? http://antoniogarrote.wordpress.com/2010/09/08/zeromq-and-clojure-a-brief-introduction/
08:34	khaliG	clgv, yes! that's the guide i've been following
08:39	khaliG	clgv, i ran into problems with building zeromq so i used the latest instead, and that worked fine. the jzmq library built and installed fine. I run into problems trying to retrieve the deps using lein though
08:40	clgv	khalig: I didnt try it - I just wanted to know what it is and the blog entry told me ;)
08:40	khaliG	clgv, fair enough :)
08:40	clgv	khalig: I just posted it since there was a chance you might have not seen it
08:54	clgv	Are incanter operations on datasets lazy?
11:17	ahriman53072	hello how i can query GAE database with SQL-like queries from my clojure-compojure program? i've found appengine-clj but it don't have suitable methods.
11:28	Scriptor	latest enlive is at 1.0.0, right?
11:56	brettk	hi
11:56	brettk	quick question
11:56	brettk	using 'assoc' to update a map
11:57	brettk	if i understand correctly, assoc returns a new copy of the map
11:58	brettk	and does not change 'in place' the data structure
11:59	brettk	is that correct?
11:59	ambrosebs	yes
11:59	mprentice	essentially yes
11:59	mprentice	technically, assoc doesn't have to make a new copy. it just can't change anything in the input map
11:59	brettk	it references the 'old' data structure where it makes sense
12:00	ambrosebs	called "structural sharing"
12:00	brettk	mprentice: ok
12:00	brettk	yep
12:00	brettk	ok... just wanted to make sure that i understood this aspect of clojure
12:01	brettk	this is also called persistent data structures, right?
12:02	mprentice	yes. also called immutable.
12:02	brettk	ok
12:02	brettk	but this immutability is all 'under the hood'
12:02	brettk	?
12:03	clgv	brettk: what do you mean by that?
12:03	brettk	if i use assoc to change a map
12:04	brettk	do i need to 'wrap this up' in some kind of dosync form
12:04	clgv	brettk: the input object is not change, see: ##(let [a {:x 1}, b (assoc a :y 10)] (println a) (println b))
12:04	lazybot	⇒ {:x 1} {:y 10, :x 1} nil
12:04	brettk	effectively, i am updating a data structure
12:05	brettk	ah... the input object is not changed
12:05	clgv	or even: ##(let [a {:x 1}, b (assoc a :x -10)] (println a) (println b))
12:05	lazybot	⇒ {:x 1} {:x -10} nil
12:05	brettk	but what the function returns is
12:05	brettk	the new data structure
12:05	clgv	yes
12:06	brettk	and that is fine?
12:06	clgv	yes pretty much in most cases
12:07	brettk	what about this whole immutability/functional 'thing' in clojure?
12:07	brettk	what if several threads are referencing the map that i have just gone and 'updated'?
12:07	Scriptor	brettk: they reference the original map
12:07	Scriptor	when you 'update' you're creating an entirely new map
12:08	Scriptor	which those other threads don't know about
12:08	Scriptor	of course, things change when you use refs
12:08	brettk	so no need to wrap this 'update' in a dosync form?
12:08	clgv	brettk: if the thread shall see the updates you need either atoms or references
12:08	brettk	or something similar?
12:08	brettk	ok
12:08	Scriptor	brettk: you're using assoc right? Yup, no need
12:08	brettk	ok
12:08	brettk	wow
12:08	clgv	changing access to references has to be wrapped within dosynv
12:09	clgv	*dosync
12:09	Scriptor	there are just a few functions that actually update in-place that need to be inside dosync
12:09	brettk	ok
12:10	brettk	wow -> clojure is pretty radical [as in 'cool']
12:11	brettk	ok... thanks guys
12:11	Scriptor	brettk: a good exercise in fully grokking functional programming is to try and reimplement some of the more basic core functions
12:12	Scriptor	like map, filter, etc...
12:12	brettk	scriptor: i will give that try
12:12	brettk	a try
12:12	bpr	brettk: try playing around with labrepl
12:12	mprentice	the first 2 chapters of structure and interpretation of computer programs is purely functional and has you implement all of those as exercises
12:13	bpr	that too, SICP is foundational knowledge
12:13	Scriptor	the writing on higher-order functions is excellent
12:14	brettk	mprentice, bpr, scriptor: ok... will do. thanks for the advice
12:21	ahriman53072	function returns some maps, how can i get one map from this list?
12:28	dnolen	ahriman53072: do you need to get a specific one?
12:28	ahriman53072	dnolen yes
12:29	dnolen	ahriman53072: you could use some
12:30	ahriman53072	dnolen ? dont understand
12:30	dnolen	,(doc some)
12:30	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns the first logical true value of (pred x) for any x in coll, else nil. One common idiom is to use a set as pred, for example this will return :fred if :fred is in the sequence, otherwise nil: (some #{:fred} coll)"
12:30	ambrosebs	come get some
12:44	cemerick	See you all in NYC later… ;-)
13:37	ieure	technomancy, Hah, is ElasticSearch working okay for you?
13:37	ieure	I went looking for a Clojure client wrapper, and your ML post was the first hit.
13:38	ieure	I see that your wrapper repo is dead.
13:45	technomancy	ieure: it's been working out pretty well. a co-worker spun off a separate wrapper lib that is probably going to be a better bet going forward: https://github.com/drewr/esperanto
13:54	cch1	(using Midje) Anybody got a good meme for testing a sequence of maps for a particular structure?
13:55	cch1	myseq => (has every? (contains {:key1 string? :key2 number?})) does NOT do it
13:59	amalloy	cch1: i never could get the hang of midje syntax
13:59	cch1	amalloy: Yeah, the checkers are powerful abstractions, but they are not consistently compasable (AFAICT).
14:00	amalloy	in "real" clojure i'd just write (every? identity (for [m maps, [key pred] {:key1 string? :key2 number?}] (pred (key m))]))
14:59	technomancy	ieure: I have been advised that esperanto may not be "ready"
14:59	technomancy	so caveat emptor
15:00	drewr	ieure: it's a good start; it's mostly served as a sandbox for debugging production issues
15:01	flazz	what is the clojure analog of zip in haskell?
15:01	amalloy	technomancy: any day now esperanto will take the world by storm. it's such a useful, unbiased, standardized language
15:01	drewr	ieure: but there's a sweet lazy index-seq that I'm using to build an automated reindexing functionality
15:01	amalloy	$heval zip [1, 2] [3 4]
15:01	lazybot	⟹ No instance for (GHC.Num.Num (t -> b)) arising from the literal `3' at <interactive>:3:12-14Possible fix: add an instance declaration for (GHC.Num.Num (t -> b))
15:01	technomancy	amalloy: it's no match for lojban!
15:01	amalloy	$heval zip [1, 2] [3, 4]
15:01	lazybot	⟹ [(1,3),(2,4)]
15:01	amalloy	&(map vector [1 2] [3 4])
15:01	lazybot	⇒ ([1 3] [2 4])
15:02	amalloy	flazz: ^
15:02	flazz	amalloy: just map? wow
15:03	amalloy	flazz: clojure's map generalizes, combining features from a number of related-but-different functions in other languages
15:03	amalloy	eg with 2+ seq args it's basically zipWith
15:04	flazz	amalloy: thanks
15:05	nathanmarz	technomancy: do you know if anyone has worked on a scala compiler plugin for leiningen?
15:06	technomancy	nathanmarz: if they have, they've been keeping quiet about it. =)
15:06	nathanmarz	those bastards
15:06	nathanmarz	how hard do you think it would be to implement something like that?
15:07	technomancy	probably not difficult
15:07	technomancy	the javac task is like 40 LOC
15:07	nathanmarz	i see
15:07	nathanmarz	i'll take a look at how that's implemented
15:07	technomancy	they ought to have an ant task you can call
15:08	technomancy	most of the code in javac is just translating project.clj into ant-land, so it depends on how much flexibility you want to expose
15:09	nathanmarz	flexibility as in the javac-options?
15:09	technomancy	right
15:09	nathanmarz	cool
15:09	technomancy	I think the javac task supports multiple source roots for some reason
15:17	arj	in how many hours will the talk by Rich start? Not too good with the time zones :)
15:18	amalloy	3.5
15:18	arj	ok, will be 1am here then
15:18	arj	it better be good then :)
15:20	Bronsa	same for me
15:20	Bronsa	i will not sleep tonight i think
15:20	arj	:)
15:21	ahriman53072	if i have sequence of maps how can i get all values from all of maps in this seq?
15:21	tbatchelli_	I believe ustream events are automatically saved for offline viewing
15:21	Bronsa	arj: you german?
15:21	scottj	in end-of-block? at http://fogus.me/fun/marginalia/#marginalia.core is there any reason to have the (when (or...) true)? isn't (or ...) always sufficient?
15:21	amalloy	&(mapcat keys [{:a 1}, {:b 2}])
15:21	lazybot	⇒ (:a :b)
15:21	amalloy	or vals, i guess
15:22	arj	Bronsa: Danish, you?
15:22	Bronsa	italian
15:22	ahriman53072	amalloy thanks.
15:23	bpr	what's the url for watching Rich's talk?
15:23	bpr	i assume there is one?
15:24	scottj	http://www.ustream.tv/channel/clojurenyc
15:24	bpr	ty
15:48	uberjar	clojure on heroku! google app engine can now go away and die.
15:53	ahriman53072	sorry again, how i can remove all keys from sequence of maps?
15:56	hv	that is not clear, could you give us an example with the expected output?
15:59	ahriman53072	imagine: [{:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}, {:a 1 :b 3 :c 7}]. Exp. output (exclude A key): [{:b 2 :c 3}, {:b 3 :c 7}].
16:00	amalloy	&(for [m [{:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}, {:a 1 :b 3 :c 7}]] (dissoc m :a))?
16:00	lazybot	⇒ ({:b 2, :c 3} {:b 3, :c 7})
16:00	ahriman53072	as always, elegant and great. thanks.
16:01	ahriman53072	i begin to love clojure.
16:38	fliebel	when is/was the clojurenyc thing?
16:39	amalloy	02:05 from now
16:39	fliebel	that's like 00:30 here... :(
16:40	chouser	fliebel: get your sleep. you can read all about it in the morning. :-)
16:40	fliebel	Yea, I guess I'll do that. No fanboy points for me today :)
16:40	amalloy	fliebel: just set up some speakers around your bed, and you'll absorb it while you sleep
16:41	fliebel	nice idea...
16:42	joly	any idea how long the talk is supposed to run?
16:47	abedra	I would imagine at least an hour and a half
17:06	fliebel	Does Alex Miller come in here? His site is blank.
17:07	amalloy	fliebel: puredanger, right? i'm sure i've seen him here once or twice, but i'd just tweet him
17:29	TimMc	yeah
17:29	TimMc	wrong window
17:30	ahriman53072	ok
17:52	chouser	less than an hour to go now
17:53	gertalot	Will he wear a turtleneck and go "one more thing..." ? ;)
17:54	brehaut	hi gertalot
17:54	gertalot	hi brehaut!
17:54	gertalot	sorry I missed you last weekend
17:54	brehaut	gertalot: likewise
17:54	hv	where can we watch the talk?
17:54	brehaut	hv http://www.ustream.tv/channel-popup/clojurenyc ?
17:55	hv	brehaut: thanks. perhaps that could be in topic ;)
17:56	ohpauleez	chouser: I set a phone alarm one hour prior
17:56	Bronsa	im fucking awake
17:59	ohpauleez	haha
18:01	aaelony	hi, I have a data structure that will contain an arbitrary number of :datamap keywords. Each :datamap will have map values with many (n~100) keywords (and values) below it. I'd like to create a set of that contains all the keywords found in all the datamaps. clojure.set/union seems like a option, but I am not sure how to create the (sub)sets that will be union-ed together. Snippet of code is here http://pastie.org/2245208 . any help appreciated..
18:03	aaelony	the part I need is the "something-that-creates-a-set-of-distinct-keys-over-all-ids"
18:06	raek	aaelony: so raw-data is a sequence of maps with the keys :id, :file and :datamap? and the value associated with :datamap is also a map? and you want to collect all keys that occurrs in those maps?
18:06	aaelony	raek: correct
18:07	raek	also, #(get-runid-data %1) is equivalent to just get-runid-data
18:07	aaelony	well, there is a vector of ids coming in, and each id produces
18:07	raek	well, first you can map :datamap over the sequence: (let [datasets (map :datamap raw-data)] ...)
18:08	aaelony	the :id :file :datamap
18:08	aaelony	yeah, my "datamap" has that
18:08	raek	then map 'keys' over those: (let [dataset-keys (->> raw-data (map :datamap) (map keys))] ...)
18:09	aaelony	interesting...
18:09	raek	then concatenate those and turn it into a set
18:09	raek	(let [dataset-keys (->> raw-data (map :datamap) (map keys) (apply concat) (set))] ...)
18:09	aaelony	once I have the sets, I guess I'll try using reduce into
18:10	raek	the apply concat step will turn ((:key1 :key2) (:key3 :key4)) into (:key1 :key2 :key3 :key4)
18:10	raek	calling set on that will remove any duplicates
18:11	raek	(set coll) is equivalent to (into #{} coll)
18:11	aaelony	yes, that's what I want. I'll give that a try. thanks!
18:11	chouser	or use mapcat instead of map, apply concat
18:11	ohpauleez	+1 mapcat
18:12	aaelony	cool... thanks guys, I'll give it a try
18:12	raek	oh, that one's better!
18:12	brehaut	or flip it round to a for
18:12	raek	(set (mapcat (comp :datamap keys) raw-data))
18:12	mudge	you guys going to watch Rich's talk tonight?
18:13	raek	I'm staying up for it
18:13	devn	I hope there's a sock hop afterwards.
18:13	devn	Or a box social.
18:14	mudge	devn: i prefer sock hop
18:15	amalloy	raek: (comp keys :datamap), right? the other way round doesn't make much sense
18:15	mudge	I wonder if irc will play a part in Rich's talk tonight, if we could ask questions or something
18:17	amalloy	mudge: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/msg/887c9af1eb373f5f claims they'll be "covering the talk" live in IRC, but it's not clear what that means
18:17	chouser	some people who are at the talk will also be here
18:17	chouser	dunno if they'll relay questions, but you can try
18:17	mudge	cool
18:17	mudge	chouser, will you be there?
18:18	mudge	at the talk
18:18	raek	maybe that means that something like "we have a question from the internet" will happen
18:18	aaelony	thanks, raek and amalloy that works well
18:18	raek	amalloy: yupp. my bad.
18:19	abedra	basically we will be around to answer any questions that come up
18:19	amalloy	abedra: question: tell us what the talk will be about
18:19	abedra	we will try to have a channel to get the questions relayed
18:19	abedra	amalloy :)
18:19	abedra	not yet
18:20	miltondsilva	hmm interesting http://disclojure.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/rh-poll1.jpg out of all the options the most voted is also the one that is arguably not new
18:21	mudge	abedra: cool,
18:22	abedra	devn off by 1 error
18:22	devn	abedra: :)
18:25	romanroe	Do you know if Rich's talk will start on time? I have to decide now if go to bed or stay up :-)
18:26	Bronsa	it was said it will be after 2.5 hours from the start of the conf
18:27	abedra	Bronsa, everything should start close to on time
18:28	Bronsa	12:30AM here
18:28	Bronsa	hope i will stay awake
18:28	ahriman53072	5:28 AM. Hope too.
18:28	romanroe	oh, I thought it starts in 15 min
18:28	mudge	should start soon
18:28	mudge	i think
18:29	abedra	yeah
18:29	abedra	i'm asking right now
18:29	abedra	looking for a positive confirmation
18:29	Bronsa	ahriman53072: did you just wake up or you still have to sleep?
18:29	abedra	i haven't heard anything otherwise though
18:29	abedra	so it should be on time
18:29	abedra	stuarthalloway, you might know
18:29	abedra	do you expect things to kick off on time?
18:30	stuarthalloway	probably start in earnest on the hour
18:30	stuarthalloway	they won't even let civilians into the building yet
18:30	brehaut	stuarthalloway: whats the local time for you?
18:30	abedra	ah
18:30	stuarthalloway	6:30 pm
18:30	abedra	6:30 pm
18:30	stuarthalloway	we are setting up for the talk
18:30	brehaut	thanks
18:30	stuartsierra	LIVE from NEW YORK!
18:31	ohpauleez	hahah
18:31	ohpauleez	Awesome!
18:31	arj	:)
18:31	alandipert	setting up the stream
18:31	alandipert	20mb up from google hq!
18:31	abedra	stuartsierra, I believe we were promised a show before things kick off
18:31	Bronsa	cool!
18:31	abedra	2 Stuarts walk into a google...
18:32	abedra	Hey your live!
18:32	Bronsa	woo
18:32	arj	yeah!
18:32	joegallo	there's a man in computer!
18:32	Bronsa	lo
18:32	abedra	We don't notice the delay
18:32	abedra	it's smooth
18:32	ohpauleez	Rich!
18:32	brehaut	is there any way to ge a lo def stream?
18:32	romanroe	perfect quality
18:32	abedra	not that I know of
18:33	brehaut	abedra: thanks :/
18:33	Bronsa	it's perfect
18:33	ohpauleez	"That's too high-def"
18:33	ohpauleez	that line alone made this talk
18:33	miltondsilva	yeah to hi def for me :p
18:33	SergeyD	So... is this "something new" about religious sect?
18:33	brehaut	im way the hell on the other side of the world with a narrow pipe; youtube is too high def ;)
18:34	Bronsa	lol
18:34	gertalot	the stream actually looks really awesome for me, and I'm at the same other end of the world :)
18:34	alandipert	brehaut: we'll have not-too-high-def recordings for you :)
18:34	brehaut	alandipert: great, thanks :)
18:34	naeu	stream looks perfect for me too
18:34	ohpauleez	haha :)
18:34	kovasb	don't downgrade it looks awesome
18:35	alandipert	kovasb: we might be able to do both
18:35	ohpauleez	chouser: You didn't make the trip too did you?
18:36	mudge	rr
18:36	abedra	it's funny to watch the total views numbers start climbing on ustream
18:36	stuartsierra	Where are we at?
18:36	mudge	yea
18:36	abedra	121
18:36	ohpauleez	97
18:36	abedra	97 current
18:37	ohpauleez	124 total
18:37	stuartsierra	Are we live-broadcasting this in a meetup group anywhere?
18:37	mudge	this is fun already
18:37	mabes	http://www.ustream.tv/channel/clojurenyc
18:37	ohpauleez	yeah, we should do this as a community more often
18:37	mabes	thats guys for setting this up!
18:37	icey	the quality on the stream is surprisingly good
18:37	mabes	yeah
18:37	stuartsierra	We'll see how it holds up. Thank Google for awesome bandwidth.
18:37	no_mind	maybe we can use google hangout
18:37	abedra	mudge, woah, I just noticed the nick, are you _the_ mudge?
18:38	chouser	ohpauleez: oh, no.
18:38	mudge	abedra: no not that mudge, not the security guy
18:38	abedra	mudge, ah ok
18:38	mudge	abedra: i'm nick mudge
18:38	romanroe	yes, thanks for the setup and sharing!!! you make the world smaller :-)
18:38	abedra	just checking :)
18:38	devn	Haha. Poor Rich stuck in front of the camera.
18:38	DeusExPikachu	keep wheeling around
18:38	Bronsa	ahahah
18:38	mabes	lol
18:38	romanroe	can you dance?
18:38	naeu	he's live
18:38	Bronsa	woah
18:39	DeusExPikachu	hey its stu
18:39	devn	Give the people what they want!
18:39	Bronsa	this is big
18:39	naeu	hello everyone
18:39	abedra	awwwww
18:39	mudge	hey stewart
18:39	redinger	Proof that Rich and Stu are not the same person!
18:39	megakorre	shooo cure
18:39	scottj	that room is going to fit 70?
18:39	gertalot	cute :)
18:39	romanroe	people count: internet 1:0 local
18:39	naeu	perhaps people will be sitting on the desks
18:39	stuartsierra	mudge: which one?
18:39	mudge	both of ya
18:39	stuartsierra	hi
18:39	megakorre	hello :D
18:39	mudge	i wonder what the rest of the room looks like
18:40	naeu	are there hooks on the wall for people on hammocks?
18:40	stuarthalloway	please make requests for the camera...
18:40	redinger	alandipert: talk about the conj to all the early viewers
18:40	devn	Down Dipert's pants?
18:40	mudge	nice room
18:40	devn	hahaha
18:41	abedra	oooooooohhhh
18:41	naeu	i bet it's going to be super crammed in a moment
18:41	abedra	did I just log into chat roulette ?
18:41	naeu	seething masses of people..
18:41	charliekilo	all those New Yorkers look pissed of at ruckus the Carolina boys are making
18:41	mabes	up to 120 internet viewers already :)
18:41	abedra	charliekilo, that's how we roll
18:42	redinger	Cheermosas!
18:42	ohpauleez	haha
18:42	abedra	+1
18:42	ohpauleez	I'm excited to be moving back to NYC (Sept 1), and hanging out with a lot of these guys
18:42	ohpauleez	Also, bring Clojure into yet another company
18:43	ohpauleez	s/bring/bringing/
18:43	alandipert	clojure nyc is poppin'!
18:43	lnostdal-laptop	watching from Norway :)
18:43	lnostdal-laptop	cool stuff
18:43	naeu	hey Norway!
18:43	megakorre	ey sweden here :D
18:43	stuartsierra	abedra: our workshops are at Strangeloop in September, right?
18:43	naeu	England here
18:43	SergeyD	ohpauleez: yeah Clojure is great for picking up girls. We should note it somewhere
18:44	lnostdal-laptop	ey guys :]
18:44	Bronsa	Italy here
18:44	abedra	stuarthalloway, yes
18:44	raek	sweden here
18:44	ohpauleez	Awesome, I really love this. We should try to encourage this in the community more often
18:44	cemerick	Western Mass. hinterlands, represent. :-P
18:44	abedra	stuarthalloway, they're all sold out though
18:44	ohpauleez	cemerick: I expect live commentary :)
18:44	mudge	Florida here
18:45	joly_	Oklahoma :P
18:45	ohpauleez	Currently Oregon
18:45	kovasb	FiDi, SF
18:45	pmbauer	Phoenix, AZ
18:45	devn	SergeyD: I think that's under "Rationale" on clojure.org: Lisp, Chicks Dig It
18:45	romanroe	how to spot the geek in the room: check who is watching the stream on his laptop
18:45	ohpauleez	haha
18:45	scottj	romanroe: irl is too high def
18:45	naeu	my cat is watching the stream too
18:46	naeu	his eyes are half shut though :-)
18:46	naeu	but he is purring
18:46	ohpauleez	devn: There's some joke in there for sure
18:46	devn	I feel like if there's ever been an opportunity to say "People of Earth", this is it.
18:46	abedra	naeu, clojurrrrrrrrrrre
18:46	SergeyD	devn: :) nice fooling
18:46	naeu	abedra: hahahaha
18:46	mdeboard	wru pie
18:47	mdeboard	I want to watch the Fabio commercial 5 more times pls
18:47	naeu	abedra: actually he's probably a bit pissed of with Clojure given the amount of annoying noises I've made him listen too whilst hacking on Overtone
18:47	redinger	ads?
18:47	clojurebot	monads is "yea, though I should walk in the valley of imperative code, I shall fear no evil, for your monad comforts me" - seen in #haskell
18:47	naeu	s/of/off/
18:47	mdeboard	redinger: Yeah, on ustream
18:47	ohpauleez	naeu: haha
18:47	redinger	Wish I had known I could have bought advertising....
18:47	charliekilo	does that feel like the Presidential Address to the Nation to anyone else?
18:47	abedra	naeu, lol yeah, you'll have that
18:47	ohpauleez	that is a hilarious scenario to picture
18:47	mdeboard	charliekilo: Yes, if Geoffrey Rush was president, surrounded by nerds
18:47	stuartsierra	Reminder: live stream of Clojure NYC at http://www.ustream.tv/channel/clojurenyc
18:48	abedra	charliekilo, nah, the presidential address isn't this interesting
18:48	ztellman	charliekilo: who's sequestered in case of a terrorist attack?
18:48	Scriptor	so the talk discussion is gonna be here, right?
18:48	redinger	Don't worry, members of Clojure/core are distributed
18:48	abedra	Scriptor, yes
18:48	charliekilo	ztellman: knowing the Relevance guys, they are more afraid of a Zombie attack ;)
18:48	Scriptor	well, nobody better have clojure problems starting 7 :p
18:49	abedra	Clojure/core and others involved are standing by
18:49	ztellman	whoever isn't onsite is officially the secretary of agriculture for Clojure
18:49	mdeboard	everyone quiet, the're starting
18:49	antares_	how long will the talk be? It is nearly 3 a.m. here :)
18:49	naeu	charliekilo: fast or slow zombies?
18:49	naeu	;-)
18:49	semperos	heh
18:49	devn	"People of Earth..."
18:49	ohpauleez	abedra: who of your team/family is up there?
18:49	paraseba	so, now we know it wasn't a hair accident, everything is OK
18:49	`fogus	slow
18:49	lnostdal-laptop	5 more minutes; i can grab more coffee :)
18:49	naeu	can we see the room again?
18:49	technomancy	devn: Greetings, programs!
18:49	abedra	ohpauleez, stuarthalloway stuartsierra and alandipert are up there
18:49	Scriptor	antares_: an hour or so?
18:49	naeu	it would be interesting to see how packed it is now
18:49	ohpauleez	cool
18:50	antares_	Scriptor: ok, I can handle that :)
18:50	raek	technomancy: lol
18:50	Scriptor	naeu: 70 people rsvp'd I think
18:50	Scriptor	oh, there we go
18:50	devn	technomancy: ha, yes, it just seems like you'd be squandering an opportunity by not starting off with "People of Earth"
18:50	ohpauleez	thanks camera hand
18:50	romanroe	now thats what I call a remote control!
18:50	naeu	oh nice
18:50	Scriptor	man, I just had to go home this summer
18:50	ohpauleez	I also vote for People of Earth
18:50	naeu	thanks
18:51	naeu	are we all sitting comfortably?
18:51	megakorre	im laying down :D
18:51	Scriptor	hi stuart
18:51	ohpauleez	I'm in a hammock
18:51	ohpauleez	just sayin'
18:51	bmillare	awww ad... :(
18:51	ohpauleez	haha
18:52	ohpauleez	175
18:52	devn	(inc ohpauleez)
18:52	gertalot_	UGH I hate the commercial breaks at crucial moments
18:52	brehaut	commercials from the people sponsoring the bandwidth?
18:52	lnostdal-laptop	it continues at the same spot afterwards, right?
18:52	Scriptor	not sure if they're sponsoring it directly
18:52	Scriptor	but they pay for the site
18:53	daniel123	hi all. anybody have a link to the talk?
18:53	naeu	hmmm, i don't want to make my home "healthier and happier"
18:53	gertalot_	no I missed part of stuart's stuff
18:53	lnostdal-laptop	daniel123, http://www.ustream.tv/channel/clojurenyc
18:53	lnostdal-laptop	oh, the ad went away (i didn't click it)
18:53	daniel123	ty, lnostdal-laptop
18:53	devn	oh god, ads
18:53	Scriptor	gertalot_: he just said that he'll be doing a talk early august for lispnyc
18:53	devn	make the bad man stop
18:53	redinger	Woah, that Clojure/conj sounds really good
18:53	charliekilo	whos doing the training?
18:54	gertalot_	cheers
18:54	alandipert	clojure/conj, be there!
18:54	Scriptor	charliekilo: the clojure/core team
18:54	gertalot_	YAY
18:54	gertalot_	go rich
18:54	arj_	woooo
18:54	ohpauleez	yessssss
18:54	ohpauleez	this is awesome!
18:54	charliekilo	Scriptor: all of them?!?
18:54	Scriptor	drum roll
18:54	megakorre	whats clojure :O
18:54	Scriptor	charliekilo: a fair number, I think
18:54	ohpauleez	DAMN!
18:54	Scriptor	clj2js?
18:54	mudge	the browser
18:54	megakorre	event loop
18:54	SergeyD	it's widespread
18:54	daniel123	hofs
18:54	SergeyD	Javascript
18:54	jsigmon1	dynamic
18:54	frou100	reach
18:54	gertalot_	javascript?!
18:54	Scriptor	so is php :p
18:55	daniel123	frou100 got it.
18:55	redinger	charliekilo:# of instructors depends how many people sign up
18:55	lnostdal-laptop	haa, i voted javascript :)
18:55	joly_	O_o
18:55	jsigmon1	oh boy
18:55	gertalot_	no way!
18:55	daniel123	interessstiiiiinnnng
18:55	Scriptor	but...hasn't it been done?
18:55	abedra	Scriptor, not like this
18:55	cemerick	Scriptor: keep watching :-)
18:55	devn	wait for it... :)
18:55	ohpauleez	this means you can do all your HTML5 apps in Clojure
18:55	maacl	Yeah!
18:55	bmillare	i am excited
18:55	maacl	ClojureScript!
18:56	ohpauleez	and run on all portables and windows8
18:56	Scriptor	cemerick: didn't you work on this? I guess some of it was included?
18:56	ohpauleez	this is a great move
18:56	arj_	hmm
18:56	cemerick	Scriptor: No, I've sadly been too busy to be able to contribute. :-(
18:56	Scriptor	ah
18:56	abedra	Scriptor, he did work on it some though
18:56	daniel123	turn off ur phones peoples!
18:56	gertalot_	daniel123: +1
18:57	arj_	i tend to like javascript :) But this will be interesting
18:57	Scriptor	I wonder how he did the sequences, COW or tries
18:57	abedra	Scriptor, the source will be opened later
18:58	abedra	Scriptor, you will be able to check it out for yourself
18:58	bmillare	is there no JS bytecode?
18:58	daniel123	hi stu.
18:58	Scriptor	abedra: awesome
18:58	ohpauleez	But wouldn't Clojure-in-Clojure make this an easier/more complete project?
18:58	Scriptor	bmillare: nope
18:58	Scriptor	js vm's don't let you input bytecode directly
18:58	stuarthalloway	we have great bandwidth, but I keep getting booted from irc
18:58	no_mind	I am waiting for the source code of clojurescript...
18:58	mabes_	sounds like clojure may be using google's closure.. that won't be confusing at all :)
18:58	abedra	mabes_, :)
18:58	redinger	mabes_: Be thankful we didn't name it Cloture
18:59	Scriptor	mabes_: funny, because rich talked a bit about it last clojurenyc meetup
18:59	lnostdal-laptop	stuarthalloway, freenode kicks when too many connections come from the same IP
18:59	Scriptor	(talked about closure, that is)
18:59	redinger	Otherwise, we would have to write an O'reilly book with a bird on the cover
18:59	chouser	ohpauleez: perhaps, but clojure-in-clojure itself will be much carder than this
18:59	ohpauleez	true
18:59	ohpauleez	(I was a PyPy dev)
18:59	mdeboard	ohpauleez: Was?
18:59	mabes_	stuarthalloway: yeah, you can tell the freenode ops your IP and they can fix it for you
18:59	ohpauleez	mdeboard: I don't contribute code anymore
18:59	mdeboard	GOD WHAT
19:00	frou100	this is cool. I had no interest in getting good at js, maybe this will let us leapfrog the lang
19:00	mdeboard	AN AD?!?!?!?
19:00	mdeboard	What the hell
19:00	mdeboard	anyone else getting na interstitial??
19:00	Scriptor	mdeboard: gotta pay for the bandwith somehow
19:00	mdeboard	RIght but... an interstitial?
19:00	icey	mdeboard: they pop-in every so often; not sure about the frequency
19:00	daniel123	I had an awesome fabio ad.
19:00	stuartsierra	Ads come from ustream, not under our control. Sorry.
19:00	xeon123	hi all
19:00	mdeboard	stuartsierra: I know, frowning at ustream
19:00	alandipert	ad-less recording forthcoming
19:00	abedra	rich turns into fabio every now and then
19:00	bmillare	anyone watch the slides about html5 + clojure + JS + google app engine? now we can eliminate JS :)
19:00	xeon123	I'm trying to understand what's the capabilities of clojure.
19:01	Scriptor	ooh, nice work with that
19:01	xeon123	with clojure, I can debug java code?
19:01	mdeboard	xeon123: There is plenty of documentation to get you started with Clojure.
19:01	stuartsierra	Intros to Clojure available at http://clojure.org/
19:01	Scriptor	xeon123: you can load up java classes and interact with them on the repl
19:02	stuarthalloway	ClojureScript is written in Clojure -- core is amazing to read
19:02	xeon123	thanks for the help.
19:02	stuarthalloway	compared to the Java stuff
19:02	abedra	chouser, possibly change the channel topic to include a link to what's going on right now?
19:02	xeon123	I will look at the site. Bye.
19:02	daniel123	stuarthalloway, I can't wait to see it.
19:02	xeon123	\leave
19:02	ohpauleez	stuarthalloway: I imagine, that's going to be a great read
19:02	ohpauleez	YESS CinC
19:03	chouser	abedra: I'm on it!
19:03	devn	+1 on reading the source for ClojureScript -- It's really interesting.
19:03	Scriptor	hmm, I don't know much about protocols, but I'd be interested in learning how it works with js, since I thought it mostly had to do with interfaces
19:04	ohpauleez	this project is a true and clear demonstration of how powerful those features are (deftype.. etc)
19:04	devn	ohpauleez: yeah, exactly right.
19:04	frou100	yo dawg..
19:04	abedra	frou100, :)
19:04	dsop	I want to play around with it right now. I talked with a few people in implemeitng something like that, luckily rich saves me from doing that and it's obviously better than what I would came up with
19:05	abedra	dsop, you'll get to soon enough
19:06	abedra	bah, fabio is back
19:06	Scriptor	how soon, end of the talk soon? :)
19:06	stuarthalloway	Scriptor: yes
19:06	abedra	chouser, thanks!
19:06	Scriptor	man, he used the exact same slides last time, should've seen it coming
19:06	@chouser	Scriptor: :-)
19:06	stuarthalloway	if my git forking fu is up to it
19:06	ieure	Okay, cool, so, what exactly is ClojureScript?
19:07	Scriptor	ieure: a large subset clojure compiled to javascript
19:07	ieure	Other than TERRIBLY EXCITING.
19:07	Scriptor	*subset of
19:07	ohpauleez	ieure: It's Clojure on top of JS
19:07	ieure	Hm.
19:07	ieure	Source? Link?
19:07	ohpauleez	ieure: written in Clojure and ClojureScript
19:07	stuartsierra	source coming
19:07	stuartsierra	after this talk
19:07	daniel123	stuartsierra: on github?
19:07	stuartsierra	yes, sources will be on github after the talk
19:08	Scriptor	so, when you use the clojurescript compiler, you're actually running the js it's compiled to, which in turn is compiled to tjvm bytecode?
19:08	arj_	stuartsierra: and documentation I guess :)
19:08	stuartsierra	Well, we'll get there… ;)
19:08	pmbauer	Exciting, but I fear debugging Clojure-generated JS is going to be equally ... exciting?
19:08	stuarthalloway	pmbauer writes bugs, nah nah
19:08	Scriptor	pmbauer: well, considering coffeescript is already pretty successful, I don't think it'd be that big of a problem
19:09	ieure	Any mention of how agents are handled in an environment with zero parallelism?
19:09	stuarthalloway	seriously: the Google Closure stuff has some good tools, including a Firebug plugin
19:09	stuarthalloway	community effort to help leverage that welcome
19:09	pmbauer	CoffeeScript maintainers allow that is a weakness
19:09	stuartsierra	I can hear the Google Closure compiler saying in a prim voice, "That (function) was uncalled for."
19:09	brehaut	ieure: webworkers are fully parallel where available
19:09	daniel123	ieure, I think he said earlier that it was a subset.
19:09	Scriptor	can it output well-formatted code that's not run through GClosure?
19:09	stuarthalloway	Scriptor: yes
19:09	stuartsierra	You can see the JS output before it goes to GClosure.
19:09	daniel123	ieure, so, not sure what it's 'missing' yet.
19:09	abedra	grrrr, Jeep comercial makes me angry at Jeep
19:10	bmillare	so is clojure.org going to be partly written in clojurescript soon? :)
19:10	stuartsierra	probably not; it's just HTML after all.
19:10	redinger	clojure.org isn't exactly an app :)
19:10	ohpauleez	Whoa, it just set in, as HTML5 apps become the normal cross-platform app, Clojure is a first class citizen to do your implementation with no extra work
19:10	redinger	ohpauleez: you got it
19:10	abedra	ohpauleez, yep
19:10	Scriptor	oh, also, any leaks on how the reader/parser is written, what libraries are used for them?
19:10	ohpauleez	way awesome (I just finished an HTML5 game engine for work)
19:10	brehaut	enlive running on the server and browser is going to be great
19:11	stuarthalloway	source code is read by clojure's reader
19:11	stuartsierra	ClojureScript only depends on the Google Closure libraries.
19:11	bmillare	redinger: i just meant, add some cool features where the server would emit some clojurescript
19:11	stuarthalloway	data can be read by the new data reader in ClojureScript
19:11	Scriptor	ah, that'd be cool to read through
19:11	mabes_	my guess is that jquery is closure "advanced mode" safe, correct?
19:11	antares_	stuarthalloway: is it going to be pushed to github later today?
19:11	stuarthalloway	and this makes a compelling alternative to JSON
19:11	stuarthalloway	anares_ yes
19:12	lnostdal-laptop	mabes_, jquery is tiny
19:12	stuartsierra	manbes_: jQuery does not work in GClosure advanced mode out of the box, but there are attempts to fix that ongoing by others.
19:12	thickey	jquery proper isn't advanced mode compatible.
19:12	bmillare	so I guess rich has been procrastinating on writing some JS and wrote clojurescript instead? :P
19:12	stuartsierra	pretty much
19:12	mabes_	stuartsierra: cool, nice too know.
19:12	Scriptor	can't wait to see how they did interop, since js's style is completely different from java's
19:12	mabes_	s/too/to/
19:12	Guest47370	<mabes_> stuartsierra: cool, nice to know.
19:13	SergeyD	Yes, it's quite difficult to write JS in advanced mode. I had this experience with Google Closure
19:14	stuarthalloway	SergeyD: it is easy now
19:14	ohpauleez	stuarthalloway: :) I'm excited about that
19:14	ohpauleez	SergeyD: I too just went through that
19:14	mdeboard	I'm never buying a jeep
19:15	mdeboard	ever
19:15	daniel123	mdeboard lol
19:15	daniel123	yess!!!!
19:15	bmillare	so its like advanced mode JS is like the JS bytecode
19:15	lnostdal-laptop	weird, i don't see the ads
19:15	Bronsa	nor do i
19:16	alandipert	lnostdal-laptop: are you here in nyc as well?
19:16	lnostdal-laptop	nope, i'm here in norway
19:16	SergeyD	This can promote Clojure even more. Nice move!
19:16	Scriptor	bmillare: kinda...but bytecode optimization is different than node tree optimization, I think
19:16	stuartsierra	lnostdal-laptop: Hi! I was in Norway just a month or so ago.
19:16	daniel123	I'm so excited about seeing the CS compiler innards.
19:17	ohpauleez	hahaha
19:17	ohpauleez	touche Rich
19:17	lnostdal-laptop	stuarthalloway, cool, the thing in Oslo? .. i missed that
19:17	brehaut	did rich just 'oh, one more thing' ?
19:17	stuartsierra	lnostdal-laptop: yes, I talked about Clojure there.
19:17	devn	Do: Read the Closure book.
19:17	gertalot_	he hasn't said "insanely great" yet, fortunately
19:18	Scriptor	damn, arity overloading in js...
19:18	brehaut	what about 'boom' ?
19:18	ohpauleez	this is awesome
19:19	paraseba	it's all there! protocols, deftyes,macros!
19:19	devn	:)
19:19	Scriptor	pfft, cross-language macros...
19:20	ohpauleez	that was a great design choice
19:20	ohpauleez	so sound
19:21	icey	does google's closure lib use typed arrays for perf? it would be interesting if clojurescript allowed type hinting to improve performance
19:21	paraseba	just unbelievable...
19:21	stuartsierra	JS doesn't have typed arrays yet.
19:21	Scriptor	icey: gclosure has a full type system, but it's built on top of js so I don't think it really helps performance
19:21	devn	icey: closure needs annotations for advanced mode compilation, but no, no typed arrays.
19:22	ohpauleez	OH MY HEAD!!! This means we can use Clojure Client-Server for data formats
19:22	ohpauleez	YES
19:22	lnostdal-laptop	hmmmm, this is very nice
19:22	ohpauleez	that's going to be HUGE
19:22	darevay	atoms, refs, and agents?
19:22	devn	darevay: there's been some talk about using gclosure's web workers
19:22	stuarthalloway	not to that point of the talk yet, but ...
19:22	kovasb	wow
19:22	stuarthalloway	atoms yes
19:22	stuarthalloway	agents probably
19:22	joly_	wow
19:23	stuarthalloway	refs would need a use case
19:23	stuartsierra	first 'boom'
19:23	darevay	yep. seems reasonable.
19:23	gertalot_	:)
19:23	icey	damn, that's awesome
19:23	bmillare	is the . syntax the same?
19:23	stuarthalloway	bmillare: except where JavaScript has more capability than Java
19:23	stuarthalloway	the corner case being (. x foo)
19:24	stuarthalloway	where (in JavaScript) that could mean give me the function foo, or call the function foo
19:24	stuarthalloway	this ambiguity is not possible in Java
19:24	`fogus	Scriptor: GClosure's types are mainly for correctness checks
19:24	abedra	Jeep, you're pissing me off man
19:24	Scriptor	`fogus: right, which is why they won't really help performance
19:24	ohpauleez	abedra: Don't leave focus on your browser, that's been working for me
19:25	abedra	ohpauleez, i've got that + irc + other channels open right now :)
19:25	ohpauleez	I just realized this "fixes" Clojure as a script language. Node + ClojureScript
19:26	ohpauleez	awesome
19:26	stuartsierra	ohpauleez: you're catching on quick :)
19:26	@chouser	ohpauleez: keep watching!
19:26	ohpauleez	:)
19:26	devn	ohpauleez: yeah, chouser did some work on node :)
19:26	redinger	It gets better :)
19:26	abedra	ohpauleez, yep, what chouser said
19:26	ohpauleez	I can't wait to contribute to this
19:26	mabes_	dunno why you would want to use node or any JS VM on the server side though.. the JVM is pretty good ;)
19:26	Scriptor	mabes_: so is v8 :)
19:27	daniel123	stuartsierra is there a todo list in the repo?
19:27	abedra	daniel123, yes
19:27	stuartsierra	But with node, you can write command-line apps that start up faster than the JVM.
19:27	daniel123	schweet.
19:27	mabes_	yeah, startup time is huge
19:27	lnostdal-laptop	V8 is single core; you want multi-core/thread on a server with many people on it .. the client only has 1 user tho
19:27	devn	there's also a lot of design discussion in the repo
19:27	devn	worth reading if you decide to contribute
19:27	gertalot_	stuartsierra: that might be quite cool for pallet and stevedore
19:28	ohpauleez	devn: Thanks for that hint
19:28	ahriman53072	there is a problem
19:28	mdeboard	What is meant by in-browser eval?
19:28	mdeboard	Can someone give me example?
19:28	SergeyD	I think Flash runtime would be very easy after JS is done
19:28	stuartsierra	we're not doing a REPL in the browser.
19:28	gertalot_	great stuff everyone, thanks!
19:29	daniel123	yess!!!
19:29	daniel123	lol
19:29	devn	but...someone else could do a REPL in the browser...if they wanted to... :)
19:29	ahriman53072	http://paste.org.ru/?a5p5u9 my code. every attempt to invoke /post with needed args leads to adding record with all values as NIL. Why?
19:29	thickey	forking hardcore indeed
19:29	scottj	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
19:29	ahriman53072	where are there NILs from?
19:29	icey	I put it on HN here: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
19:29	ahriman53072	*these
19:29	icey	derp
19:29	Scriptor	by the way, how is integration with lein?
19:29	daniel123	thanks scottj
19:29	icey	http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2787851
19:30	ohpauleez	Scriptor: Good question +1
19:30	devn	Scriptor: it's not there yet. or at least, I didn't make an attempt to use lein while hacking on clojurescript. There is some decent tooling in place to get you up and running though.
19:30	redinger	Durham!
19:30	jdwbell	will Conj be streamed? hint, hint, nudge, nudge....
19:31	bmillare	is this clojurescript or something else? http://nicknick851120.blogspot.com/?zx=4bc09ef6a1863f28
19:31	Scriptor	devn: cool, is it still possible to use swank with it?
19:31	pbuckley	jdwbell - it would be a miracle if the conj had a working network connection
19:31	ohpauleez	Just a quick related announcement, I just moved into the CTO position for Tutorspree and we'll be doing clojure work and I'll be contributing on my Friday's work
19:31	redinger	jdwbell: Not streamed, but we're working out the recording details
19:31	stuartsierra	bmillare's link is spam
19:31	devn	Scriptor: I've been using inferior-lisp while working on it.
19:31	stuarthalloway	redinger is your point of contact for joining us on Fridays...
19:31	ztellman	I missed a bit of the talk, was there any discussion of how to specify a javascript version of some java built-in (i.e. execute this callback in n milliseconds)
19:31	bmillare	crap
19:31	bmillare	sorry
19:32	scgilardi	https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript
19:32	bmillare	that is not what I wanted
19:32	stuartsierra	no worries
19:32	bmillare	http://clojurescript.n01se.net/repl/
19:32	abedra	alandipert, do you have a body dragging from that camera?
19:32	ohpauleez	inching forward inch-by-inch is too funny
19:32	alandipert	people of the internet: text legible?
19:32	abedra	no
19:32	stuartsierra	bmillare: no, that is an older attempt at the same project by Chris Houser.
19:32	ohpauleez	can we zoom it in?
19:32	Danny_Collins	can't read it at all
19:32	daniel123	blurry
19:32	ohpauleez	NO
19:32	bmillare	ok
19:32	devn	bmillare: that's chouser's clojurescript
19:32	redinger	ohpauleez: You need some Clojure consulting with that new gig? :)
19:32	abedra	alan it's not all that bad
19:32	maacl	blurry and very small
19:32	Bronsa	maximize the video
19:32	Bronsa	it will be clear
19:33	ohpauleez	Thanks Bronsa
19:33	no_mind	cant makeout anything of demo on the stream
19:33	ieure	Haha
19:33	Scriptor	no_mind: it's a little better if you full-screen it
19:34	redinger	no_mind: pop out the video and you can enlarge it
19:34	scottj	does it work fine with slime?
19:34	freakwit	go back
19:34	mabes_	it looks like he is using emacs... doesn't that mean he is using slime?
19:34	abedra	scottj, yes, almost all of us work in that environment
19:34	Scriptor	mabes_: it's inferior-lisp apparently
19:34	raek	no, he's using inferior-lisp
19:34	devn	mabes_: he's using inferior-lisp
19:34	freakwit	(sorry, didn't mean to type that)
19:34	mabes_	ah
19:34	ohpauleez	hahaha
19:35	raek	see http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
19:35	abedra	yes, but it has worked fine in slime for me
19:35	devn	M-x cd PATH_TO_CLOJURESCRIPT_REPO, M-x set-variable inferior-lisp-program "script/repljs"
19:35	Scriptor	abedra: how do you start up swank?
19:35	devn	M-x inferior-lisp
19:35	maacl	the repl works on my machine :-)
19:35	abedra	Scriptor instructions will show up as well
19:35	Scriptor	sweet
19:35	mdeboard	Anyone getting a repl working on Ubuntu (with openJDK)
19:36	no_mind	Will you guys accept questions from IRC ?
19:36	gertalot_	repljs is melting my poor old macbook
19:36	abedra	mdeboard, I use ubuntu explicitly
19:36	stuartsierra	no_mind: maybe at the end
19:36	daniel123	awesome.
19:36	mdeboard	abedra: I mean the cljs repl
19:36	abedra	mdeboard, yes, I used Ubuntu the whole time I was working on cljs
19:37	devn	bmillare: the http://clojurescript.n01se.net/repl/ link you posted earlier now points in the right direction
19:37	mdeboard	abedra: Ah, ok. Getting an unexpected error. Are you using openjdk or sun
19:37	bmillare	devn: thanks
19:37	abedra	mdeboard, sun
19:37	abedra	mdeboard, I don't use the openjdk
19:38	mdeboard	I see
19:38	dsop	mdeboard: what error do you get?
19:38	mdeboard	dsop: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: sun.org.mozilla.javascript.internal.Context, compiling:(cljs/compiler.clj:919)
19:38	kwbeam	openjdk has issues with this:
19:38	kwbeam	yep, you beat me to it
19:38	dsop	same here
19:38	abedra	mdeboard, it must be missing the proper rhino bits
19:38	`fogus	ClojureScript brought to you by Old Spice
19:39	no_mind	Cant access clojurescript wiki at https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki . Is it up ?
19:39	stuartsierra	wiki coming soon
19:39	Scriptor	the repl relies on rhino, right? Does anything else?
19:39	frou100	I'm on my 3rd condom ad
19:39	mdeboard	abedra: Got it, thanks
19:39	scottj	no ads broguht to you by adblock
19:39	abedra	Programmers, look at your cljs, now at js, now back to cljs... Sadly, your js is not cljs but IT COULD BE!
19:39	devn	how apropos frou100
19:39	`fogus	(inc abedra)
19:39	devn	abedra: haha!
19:39	Guest47370	⟹ 1
19:40	ohpauleez	frou100: and now you know about SAFE JS and SAFE Sex
19:40	dsantiago	How is debugging in a browser going to work here?
19:40	dsop	mdeboard: does it work?
19:40	darevay	works for me ... and since it's on Rhino, it preserves the beloved Java stack traces! ;)
19:40	Scriptor	dsantiago: I guess you'd have to tell it to not minify/optimize the code and find the js error, then trace that back to the clj code
19:40	brehaut	dsantiago: closure apparently has a firebug pluggin, and chrome webkit recently landed a patch to allow compilers to add debugging hooks
19:41	@chouser	Scriptor: no, just the repl
19:41	no_mind	If I am working on a clojure web based project. WIll it make sense to use Google closure, keeping migration to clojurescript migration in future ?
19:41	alandipert	dsantiago: http://code.google.com/closure/compiler/docs/inspector.html maybe
19:41	mdeboard	dsop: Dunno, I'm trying to install sun-java6-jdk
19:41	devn	dsop: brehaut: It's not there yet, but it's definitely possible. It's absent at the moment.
19:41	@chouser	ISeq is a protocol
19:41	abedra	mdeboard, just add the partner ppa
19:41	ohpauleez	that is GORGEOUS code
19:42	dsop	hmpfl
19:42	bmillare	is clojurescript written in clojurescript + clojure or just clojurescript?
19:42	ohpauleez	so subtle, simple, and powerful
19:42	mdeboard	abedra: ya
19:42	dsop	i don't want to install sun-sdk for that
19:42	`fogus	no_mind: You are not required to use GClosure for js interop nor migration.
19:42	ohpauleez	bmillare: Clojure and ClojureScript
19:42	Scriptor	obligatory nyc sirens
19:42	ohpauleez	the core is all ClojureScript
19:42	abedra	ahhhh we know it is NYC
19:42	daniel123	Is he just sitting out front honking his horn?
19:43	lnostdal-laptop	lol
19:43	bmillare	ohpauleez: how is it written in clojure if there's no jvm?
19:43	devn	they're coming to steal our new secret weapon
19:43	redinger	It's just like pairing with stuartsierra.
19:43	devn	haha redinger
19:43	rimmjob_	how good with javascript should i be before using this stuff?
19:43	redinger	sirens in the background
19:43	ohpauleez	bmillare: Clojure does the compilation piece
19:43	bmillare	ok, got it
19:43	ahriman53072	÷å ðàçãóí
19:44	abedra	redinger, yeah, I haven't paired with stuartsierra in a bit, so I forgot about that
19:44	mabes_	300k -> 40k (6k with compression)!
19:44	mabes_	thats pretty sweet
19:44	ohpauleez	wow, 40Kb with compression over the wire for webapps will be awesome
19:44	devn	Yeah, it's really nice.
19:45	ohpauleez	wow
19:45	ohpauleez	I still can't get over the reader being on the client side
19:45	mabes_	I didn't realize how powerful closure was
19:45	ohpauleez	mabes_: You really have to use Closure Lib and follow some guidelines to get that power
19:45	ohpauleez	and it's a little painful
19:45	dsop	hmpfl
19:45	ahriman53072	!!!
19:45	gertalot	goodness. my laptop didn't like the 550mb java process that repljs started
19:46	`fogus	ohpauleez: Yeah, that's pretty cool huh? :-)
19:46	mabes_	ohpauleez: but I guess a big selling point of ClojureScript that only it's compiler needs to know those rules, right?
19:46	daniel123	stuartsierra, the compiled javascript gets deployed?
19:46	SergeyD	mabes_: right
19:46	mdeboard	Ok so uninstalling openjdk and replacing with sun jdk = win
19:46	redinger	Because one build tool is never enough for us
19:46	ohpauleez	`fogus: for sure!
19:46	abedra	mdeboard, you don't have to uninstall open
19:46	abedra	update-java-alternatives
19:46	jdwbell	but an advantage of something like a large 'static' library, something like JQuery on Google's CDN, is the caching.
19:46	hv	mdeboard: :( I don't want to do that
19:47	ohpauleez	mabes_: most definitely
19:47	Scriptor	gah, have to head out, but this has been really good, can't wait to play with it
19:47	mdeboard	abedra: Well, I don't do anything with openjdk in any way, Clj is literally the only reason I even know it exists
19:47	dsantiago	Will it be possible to write .cljs files and include those as parts of clojure programs to share code?
19:47	abedra	mdeboard, you can switch on command
19:47	ohpauleez	Scriptor: later
19:47	stuartsierra	jdwbell: you can still use cached copies of things like jQuery
19:47	SergeyD	jdwbell: yes, that is why Google Closure and now ClojureScript is more advatageous for big apps
19:47	daniel123	schweeet!
19:48	ahriman53072	åáò
19:48	SergeyD	jdwbell: I mean your own custom large codebase
19:48	dsop	hm okay looks like i have to wait for a openjdk compatible version
19:48	devn	ahriman53072: Rich is showing off the demo app.
19:49	ahriman53072	devn where
19:50	rimmjob_	what was google using this for?
19:50	devn	ahriman53072: http://www.ustream.tv/channel-popup/clojurenyc
19:50	gertalot	what are the memory requirements for a clojurescript repl? I can't have -Xmx2G, that explodes my laptop.
19:50	mdeboard	wow
19:50	mdeboard	yeah
19:50	devn	rimmjob_: their production apps.
19:50	mdeboard	the repl just vomited everywhere
19:50	ssideris	so clojurescript is the "something new" that Rich was going to talk about (sorry, just started watching the stream)
19:50	mdeboard	WHY ISN'T THIS ALPHA RELEASE RUNNING FLAWLESSLY ON MY MACHINE?!?!?!
19:50	gertalot	haha
19:51	devn	ssideris: that's correct.
19:51	mdeboard	Someone please show Mr. Hickey what a buffer is :(
19:51	ssideris	devn: thanks
19:51	ahriman53072	omg
19:51	mdeboard	in emacs
19:51	kovasb	this is so awesome
19:52	stuartsierra	Wiki is public: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/wiki
19:52	scottj	(add-hook 'clojure-mode-hook 'toggle-truncate-line)
19:52	no_mind	Where can I access the demo application code ?
19:52	stuartsierra	Demo code is in the samples/ dir of the ClojureScript Git repo.
19:52	`fogus	LOL. Rich doing a code review
19:53	redinger	I still remember writing code thinking "Oh wait, Rich is going to see this..."
19:53	ohpauleez	yes! I see lazy-seq
19:53	stuartsierra	redinger: try hacking the implementation of ClojureScript `fn`
19:54	devn	stuarthalloway: haha
19:54	redinger	We'll work on that routine for Clojure/conj
19:54	ohpauleez	chouser: Ok, I'm getting ready now! :)
19:54	brehaut	`fogus: the link you just tweeted is broken
19:54	daniel123	haha
19:54	abedra	go figure, stuarthalloway is now the center of the universe
19:54	abedra	:)
19:54	bmillare	lol
19:54	ohpauleez	abedra: haha
19:55	stuartsierra	abedra: "Like pouring gasoline on a flame."
19:55	ahriman53072	uhuhuh
19:55	abedra	I DON'T WANT CHICKENS, I WANT CLOJURESCRIPT
19:55	devn	bahaha
19:55	pmbauer	Is there a test suite someplace to verify clojure (JVM) and ClojureScript fidelity where it makes sense? (see cut-n-pasted parts)
19:55	stuartsierra	There are some tests, yes.
19:55	bmillare	woot startup time
19:56	stuartsierra	Not aiming for full Clojure compatibility yet.
19:56	hv	I fixed that on unix!
19:56	ahriman53072	is it possible to do something like (map #(str "\|\|" %1 "\|\|" %2)(mapcat vals [{:b 1},{:b2 2}]))) ??
19:56	no_mind	can I use closure templates in clojurescript or is it yet to be ported ?
19:56	devn	pmbauer: You'll find a lot of simple tests of all the important bits at the bottom of core.cljs
19:56	hv	(startup time, similar to nailgun yet better)
19:56	daniel123	fast.
19:56	devn	no_mind: I smell an opportunity. ;)
19:56	pmbauer	stuartsierra: Thanks ... use case would be sharing, say, validation code browser/server side.
19:56	raek	clapclapclap
19:56	ohpauleez	YES!
19:56	ohpauleez	Amazing work team
19:57	no_mind	devn: I wont mind working on porting closure temlates. If no one else is working on it
19:57	technomancy	scottj: uh oh; that doesn't sound good =\
19:57	daniel123	abedra are you using this in your new book?
19:57	devn	no_mind: I worked on it with Luke Vanderhart awhile back, but we went at it from the Java side. I'd be interested in contributing on that, though, as I'm guessing Luke V. would as well.
19:57	abedra	daniel123, it may make an appearance :)
19:58	ohpauleez	I'm already emailing O'Reilly for "ClojureScript: Client-side Clojure"
19:58	ohpauleez	haha
19:58	redinger	stuarthalloway already tweeted it would show up abedra
19:58	maacl	Has anyone tried the hello demo? Isn't it suppose to pop an alert box?
19:58	pmbauer	devn: thanks...couldn't find the test suite
19:58	abedra	redinger, ok well there you go :)
19:58	devn	(test-stuff) is the ticket :)
19:58	redinger	Whether you like it or not :)
19:58	stuarthalloway	abedra: I am willing to do the work if necessary :-)
19:58	daniel123	abedra, do you recommend any other literature in the meantime? I have Stu's book, fogus & chouser's, Amit's book...
19:59	no_mind	devn: sure. Where do I start from ?
19:59	mdeboard	I bought Practical Clojure yesterday when it was $10
19:59	stuartsierra	I think the "hello" demo is missing some loads from its HTML.
19:59	mdeboard	It killed my dog :-\
19:59	ahriman53072	sorry
19:59	ahriman53072	is it possible to do something like (map #(str "\|\|" %1 "\|\|" %2)(mapcat vals [{:b 1},{:b2 2}]))) ??
19:59	devn	hahaha, this explanation will be fun
19:59	stuartsierra	The "hello" demo should work if you recompile it with cljsc.
19:59	pmbauer	devn: re:test-stuff ... yea, surprised tests ended up all in one function ...
19:59	ohpauleez	haha
19:59	Bronsa	ahahah
19:59	devn	where's my klingon destroyer UTF-8 char?
19:59	abedra	daniel123, don't forget practical clojure
19:59	daniel123	k
20:00	stuartsierra	pmbauer: that's temporary
20:00	stuartsierra	Thanks, abedra. :)
20:00	pmbauer	stu: ah
20:00	ohpauleez	Does anyone see this as a huge statement that this talk JUST happened to be when Java Language Summit is going on :)
20:00	abedra	stuarthalloway, i wouldn't mind if you did it, there's still a bunch left to tackle
20:00	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
20:00	maacl	stuarthalloway: I just recompiled it and no alert box
20:01	stuartsierra	I meant in advanced mode.
20:01	devn	ohpauleez: it's conference season, I wouldn't read too much into it. :)
20:01	stuarthalloway	we should split the simple/advanced hello into separate html target fiels
20:01	ohpauleez	devn: true true
20:01	technomancy	ohpauleez: yeah, the absence from the JVMLS seemed pretty surprising
20:01	hv	ahriman53072: as you may have felt, there is an important show going on somewhere, and most people here are watching it.
20:01	daniel123	Can you repeat the questions?
20:01	no_mind	Someone post clojure script in slashdot
20:01	alandipert	question was TCO
20:01	devn	thanks alandipert
20:01	brehaut	ahriman53072: how about you ask what you want to solve, rather than providing a nonsense solution?
20:02	mabes_	what is js/node's equivalent of maven? i.e. how do you declare and pull in your deps?
20:02	devn	mabes_: npm?
20:02	Scorchin	mabes_: npm
20:02	ohpauleez	npm
20:02	mabes_	:) thanks
20:02	stuartsierra	Google Closure has a dependency mechanism, though it does not handle downloading external dependencies.
20:02	maacl	stuartsierra: I just recompiled it and no alert box
20:02	abedra	ok IRC folks, get your questions ready
20:03	stuartsierra	maacl: sorry, I think the HTML file is missing some pieces.
20:03	stuartsierra	The "Hello" demo got dropped while everyone was working on Twitterbuzz.
20:03	licoresse	this is awesome!!!
20:03	alandipert	slides will be available
20:03	david`	I guess there's no Java interop in Clojurescript?
20:03	maacl	stuartsierra: check
20:03	mdeboard	god these NYC guys are time-hogs :(
20:03	stuartsierra	david`: no :)
20:03	Scorchin	QUESTIONS FROM THE INTERNET!!!
20:03	@chouser	david`: no, but there's javascript interop
20:03	david`	very nice
20:04	naeu	which refs are supported?
20:04	stuartsierra	only Atom so far.
20:04	stuartsierra	Maybe Agents later.
20:04	mjg123	chouser: it's for any js or do you have to wrap?
20:04	stuartsierra	Any JS!
20:04	hv	question: can (when) cljs be able to be embedded inside a clojure web app?
20:04	devn	If anyone here is interested in what you can do with google's closure libraries, you can look in clojurescript/closure/library/closure/goog/demos, and open index.html
20:04	l0st3d	do we still get agents?
20:04	no_mind	Is there a TODO list for clojurescript ?
20:04	stuarthalloway	maacl: did you open hello-dev.html?
20:04	Scorchin	Questoin from the Internet: What's the interop with things like jQuery, YUI and underscore.js?
20:04	stuartsierra	hv: You can't run the ClojureScript in the browser.
20:04	stuarthalloway	Just tried it here and it works
20:04	mdeboard	description files
20:05	bmillare	what parts of clojure language won't work well even in the future in clojure script?
20:05	maacl	stuartsierra: nope - silly me :-)
20:05	gfodor	question from the interwebs: how feasible to hoist the compiler into the browser? will it be possible to easily write and compile clojure code from within a browser-based editor?
20:05	dsantiago	Question: Is any of this work useful for putting back into Clojure as part of CinC?
20:05	devn	no_mind: yes, devnotes/todo.org
20:05	ohpauleez	This sounds like a "tooling" and "ecosystem" problem (technomancy :) )
20:05	hv	stuarthalloway: well, is it like cljs -> google closure -> js -> web app -> client ?
20:05	mdeboard	Question: What is the rationale of excluding (in-browser) eval?
20:05	raek	dsantiago++
20:05	hv	oops!
20:05	mdeboard	(inc dsantiago(
20:05	lnostdal-laptop	Question: Does this mean ClojureInClojure is next? ...or at least closer, perhaps based on the experience implementing this?
20:05	stuarthalloway	devn: those dev notes may not be up to date -- ask first if something doesn't make sense
20:05	mdeboard	(inc dsantiago)
20:05	Guest47370	⟹ 1
20:06	hv	stuartsierra: well, is it like cljs -> google closure -> js -> web app -> client ?
20:06	amalloy	mdeboard: you couldn't use the whole-program optimizations with eval, i think
20:06	daniel123	<dsantiago> Question: Is any of this work useful for putting back into Clojure as part of CinC?
20:06	`fogus	mdeboard; Good question. Hopefully stuarthalloway picks it. :-)
20:06	ahriman53072	^(
20:06	frou100	QUESTION: Has there been any anecdotal performance testing on iPhone/Android?
20:06	stuartsierra	not yet
20:06	Raynes	Question: How long has this been being done on the down low? I've seen very few awesome secrets like this kept well.
20:06	stuarthalloway	Raynes: as long as it takes to build something in a powerful language. Check the git history
20:06	mdeboard	crystal meth for javascript
20:06	Raynes	Especially given the number of people.
20:06	licoresse	:-)
20:07	daniel123	lol
20:07	devn	crystal math, cooking up a batch of derivatives and inverse functions to get your fix
20:07	ohpauleez	Please take frou100's question
20:07	redinger	Raynes: All the contributors were threatened with death if they leaked info
20:07	abedra	what about the bacon of javascript
20:07	Raynes	redinger: I bet. ;)
20:07	mjg123	frou100++
20:07	daniel123	core.logic
20:07	daniel123	?
20:07	david`	can I come to relevance on Friday and try to add clojurescript support to rails 3.1?
20:07	stuarthalloway	daniel123: I like your question
20:07	thickey	is enlive ported yet?
20:07	mabes_	so for clarification... if you don't want to go through the work of making a JS lib closure compliant (e.g. a JS graphing lib) can you still use and forgo the benefits?
20:07	redinger	I think it was in dev for 6 weeks, right?
20:07	stuartsierra	frou100: We haven't tested on mobile platforms yet, but it's all just JS, so whatever works there.
20:07	`fogus	daniel123: I see no reason why core.logic will not work
20:08	ohpauleez	thanks david!
20:08	frou100	alright - thanks
20:08	devn	there's a lot of optimization in core.logic
20:08	redinger	Atlas?
20:08	daniel123	Thanks stuarthalloway.
20:08	redinger	cemerick: :)
20:09	no_mind	devn: cant figure out the url for devnotes/todo.org
20:09	kriyative	@stuarthalloway How long has ClojureScript been in development?
20:09	devn	no_mind: it's in the clojurescript repo
20:09	redinger	no_mind: https://github.com/clojure/clojurescript/blob/master/devnotes/todo.org
20:09	gfodor	sorry to repost in case my q was missed :)
20:09	gfodor	question from the interwebs: how feasible to hoist the compiler into the browser? will it be possible to easily write and compile clojure code from within a browser-based editor
20:09	devn	redinger: thanks :)
20:09	gfodor	(sorry if i missed this jumped into the talk late)
20:09	stuarthalloway	kriyative: hammock time or coding time?
20:09	kriyative	@stuarthalloway yes.
20:09	kriyative	@stuarthalloway I mean, both.
20:10	cemerick	redinger: :-) I leaned pretty heavily on lots of libs. We'll see what a cljs impl of the atlas frontend would look like soon, hopefully.
20:10	ahriman53072	^(
20:10	bmillare	holy crap thats fast 3months
20:10	kriyative	@stuarthalloway very cool, thanks.
20:11	gfodor	i'm on it! :)
20:11	ohpauleez	haha
20:11	hv	stuarthalloway: I want to invoke (embed) cljs in the clj, not put the cljs compiler in the browser.
20:12	daniel123	"do you get your knowledge from your hair? if so, please slow down because we do not all have nice hair."
20:12	ohpauleez	I'm curious about moving forward, what kind of unified ecosystem are we shooting for
20:12	kovasb	question: whats the debugging story?
20:12	ohpauleez	as a community
20:12	no_mind	ah! I was looking for devnotes in jira
20:12	ohpauleez	ie: unify on node? unify with current tools (lein?)
20:12	devn	no_mind: no worries.
20:12	hv	like (to-html [:html [:head [:script (cljs (def a 10)]]] [:body ...]])
20:12	licoresse	kovasb; +++
20:12	pmbauer	Will design docs for ClojureScript (going forward) live in Jira?
20:13	pmbauer	(discussions, etc)
20:13	stuarthalloway	pmbauer: in all probability
20:13	stuarthalloway	we have been very busy and that decision was not on the path for delivering tonight
20:13	stuarthalloway	anybody running the twitterbuzz thing on your own?
20:13	l0st3d	is there an agents implementation that uses timeouts in the browser?
20:13	ohpauleez	haha
20:14	ohpauleez	yes
20:14	ohpauleez	exactly
20:14	ohpauleez	and tools for both places
20:14	bmillare	what clojure language features won't ever be in clojurescript?
20:14	stuartsierra	bmillare: Java interop. ;)
20:14	bmillare	besides javainterop :)
20:14	brehaut	bmillare: that implies you expect javascript etc to not change
20:14	ohpauleez	haha
20:14	ohpauleez	touche
20:14	pmbauer	Zing!
20:15	ohpauleez	ok
20:15	ohpauleez	I'm satisfied with that
20:15	daniel123	Repeat the q, please.
20:15	devn	^^
20:15	alandipert	question was about unifying clojure/clojurescript core
20:15	hv	merge clojure.core with clojure.org
20:15	hv	?
20:16	hv	sorry, I thought that was the question
20:16	naeu	will we therefore see more utility fns where we might typically have been encouraged to use direct java methods - i.e. (.endsWith "foo" "o")
20:16	alandipert	hv: the 'core' library in both languages is similar but not identical
20:16	kephale	W.R.T unifying clojure/clojurescript, is it plausible to have shared memory between a server app in clojure and a client in clojurescript?
20:16	daniel123	lol
20:16	Raynes	They should have cut his hair out of the stream. I haven't heard a word he said, given my focus has been entirely on his beautiful hair.
20:16	stuartsierra	kephale: umm, no.
20:16	Scorchin	Raynes: :D
20:17	stuarthalloway	kephale: you have to be kidding
20:17	ohpauleez	haha
20:17	frou100	naeu: good question
20:17	daniel123	I know Raynes. I think it's where he gets his knowledge.
20:17	cemerick	Raynes: Wow.
20:17	cemerick	:-D
20:17	devn	hahaha
20:17	Scorchin	hahaha
20:17	abedra	how probable ?
20:17	maacl	that's just sick
20:18	david`	since clojurescript has js interop, does the clojurescript coe over in place?
20:18	hv	maybe he wants easily shared state?
20:18	lnostdal-laptop	Question: Might already have been mentioned this, but does stuff like add-watch etc. work?
20:18	rimmjob_	19:09 <gfodor> question from the interwebs: how feasible to hoist the compiler into the browser? will it be possible to easily write and compile clojure code from within a browser-based editor
20:18	rimmjob_	oops
20:18	ohpauleez	Thank you so much Rich, and the whole team that worked on this
20:18	ohpauleez	amazing stuff
20:18	daniel123	thanks everybody!!! stuarthalloway, ustream worked out great.
20:18	mjg123	indeed - thanks all
20:18	stuartsierra	Thanks everyone for listening.
20:18	maacl	hickey for president
20:18	david`	that was great
20:18	gfodor	yes this awesome! thanks so much
20:18	alandipert	thanks everybody. and for sticking with us through the condom ads
20:18	jdwbell	awesome! thanks for streaming this!
20:18	devn	rimmjob_: I gotta say man, your nick, so hard to tell if you're a troll...
20:18	mudge	thank you
20:18	devn	alandipert: Oh, I was sticking through it alright.
20:18	stuarthalloway	heading to the bar ...
20:18	bmillare	great job to all who worked on the project
20:18	alandipert	devn: bazinga
20:19	stuarthalloway	bye y'all
20:19	pbuckley	What? They're going out for dinner and drinks?!? And we're not going to be treated to another hour of beautiful streaming shots of hair?
20:19	bmillare	stuarthalloway: have a good time
20:19	lnostdal-laptop	cool stuff, good night .. have fun at the pub .. heh :)
20:19	devn	you new york kids have fun.
20:19	Scorchin	nice job guys!
20:19	ohpauleez	see ya guys
20:19	naeu	right, bedtime for me - enjoy the bar everyone
20:19	devn	ciao
20:19	scottj	for calling a javascript method in clojurescript do you use .foo?
20:19	alandipert	time to drink enough to forget javascript's bad parts
20:19	pmbauer	Big congrats to clojure/core
20:19	ahriman53072	say please how can i iterate through sequence of maps.
20:19	amalloy	thanks for the broadcast guys, it was very nice
20:19	devn	alandipert: impossible.
20:19	stuartsierra	Thank you all for listening!
20:19	`fogus	Awesome that the video was crystal clear.
20:19	stuartsierra	Check out the GitHub repo, and continue the discussions on the Clojure mailing list.
20:20	hv	I missed the beginning. does ustream store it?
20:20	frou100	cheers stuartsierra
20:20	pbuckley	hv I don't think so, I think it was live only
20:20	Raynes	hv: A video is planned to be made available later.
20:20	neotyk	Kudos to clojure/core and big thanks for streaming it
20:20	abedra	hv it was recorded
20:20	hv	thanks
20:21	abedra	hv, it will be available later
20:22	tbatchelli	great job putting this online guys!
20:23	stuartsierra	thanks!
20:23	stuartsierra	Good night all!
20:28	maacl	I get ReferenceError: goog is not defined when trying to run the node examples
20:30	the-kenny	Clojurescript fits perfectly into my current hobby project :) Thanks for this great work!
20:31	devn	the-kenny: link me?
20:32	the-kenny	devn: I call it netwars, it's on my github account (https://github.com/the-kenny/netwars-clj). It's a clone of a turn-based strategy game for the Gameboy Advance / Nintendo DS (Advance Wars)
20:33	the-kenny	devn: Sorry, I have to sleep now. It's 2:30AM here :/ Good night!
20:33	Bronsa	yeah me too
20:34	Bronsa	good night everybody
20:34	devn	the-kenny: night!
20:34	maacl	Can anyone compile the node samples?
20:40	maacl	Anyone?
20:40	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
20:42	kriyative	xk
20:56	@chouser	maacl: is it not working for you?
20:56	maacl	chouser: got the hellonode working - but nodels compiles but does nothing
20:57	chouser	maacl: are you running it as shown in the quickstart wiki?
20:59	maacl	nope - was just trying same approach as for hellonode - will try the wiki way now
21:00	chouser	well, if it compiled, you may only need to add a directory to the command-line args
21:01	maacl	ls
21:02	brehaut	maacl: Clojurescript.iml devnotes readme.txt src bin epl-v10.html samples closure lib script
21:03	Scriptor	will clojurescript and clojure continue to share the same irc channel, or will there be a split sometime soon?
21:04	redinger	Scriptor: Current plan is to continue using Clojure channel
21:07	maacl	chouser: yeah - if I add the main src dir it works
21:07	chouser	cool!
21:08	maacl	chouser: why does't what it need end up in the out dir?
21:08	dsop	hmm getting it work with openjdk doesn't seem to be a 2min fix
21:13	mattmitchell	could someone recommend how i could recursively modify key values in a map?
21:13	chouser	dsop: the compiler or the repl?
21:14	Raynes	technomancy: Ping.
21:14	amalloy	mattmitchell: uhhmmmm, sounds like reduce or iterate but you haven't been very specific
21:14	dsop	chouser: the repl at the moment
21:14	dsop	chouser: and the compiler. at least require cljs.compiler fails
21:15	gfodor	so clojurescript doesn't support runtime compilation, but does it support runtime macro expansion?
21:15	mattmitchell	amalloy: ok something like: {:address {:line-1 "xxx" :city-name "xxx"}} becomes {:address {:line_1 "xxx" :city_name "xxx}}
21:15	Scriptor	gfodor: seems so
21:15	technomancy	Raynes: about to head out, but shoot
21:15	gfodor	neat
21:15	chouser	dsop: openjdk doesn't include rhino, does it? That'll be a showstopper for the repl.
21:15	mattmitchell	amalloy: just changing hyphens to underscores
21:16	chouser	gfodor: even clojure doesn't support runtime macro expansion
21:16	Raynes	technomancy: Does leiningen do anything if a dependency is listed without a version: :dependencies [[foo]]
21:16	dsop	chouser: well you can install it, but it's a different namesapce then
21:16	chouser	gfodor: so no, clojurescript doesn't support that
21:16	Raynes	Cake defaults to whatever is latest, and I'm trying to reconcile marginalia's output.
21:16	mattmitchell	amalloy: but there are many maps, all with varying depths/keys
21:16	chouser	dsop: ah
21:16	gfodor	thx chouser
21:17	technomancy	Raynes: no, leiningen doesn't encourage "just give me whatever" versions
21:17	dsop	chouser: sun.org.mozilla.. is gone obviously in that case, so I try to move it to org.mozilla, but at the moment I get stuck as (:global repl-env) implements a ExternalScriptable from the sun namespace and I have to fix that
21:17	dsop	to use the mozilla rhino namespace
21:17	dsop	instead of the sun one
21:17	Raynes	technomancy: Thanks.
21:17	technomancy	I mean, you can specify ranges if that's what you want, but it has to be explicit
21:17	amalloy	mattmitchell: sounds like a job for clojure.walk, i guess
21:17	Raynes	technomancy: Well, I certainly wasn't implying that it was a good idea. ;)
21:17	mattmitchell	amalloy: ok thanks
21:17	amalloy	you could implement it by hand without too much work, i think
21:18	technomancy	Raynes: I blame the rubyists
21:18	Raynes	I blame television.
21:18	technomancy	they are still discovering the perils of open-ended version ranges
21:19	chouser	dsop: the compiler will be easier to fix, and probably necessary anyway for the repl
21:20	dsop	chouser: I don't think it's taht easy. it's the interaction between javax.script.ScriptEngineManager and the mozilla rhino stuff
21:20	dsop	but I have to dig deeper into the javadocs before I can say what exactly causes it.
21:21	amalloy	&((fn dash-keys [m] (if-not (map? m) m, (into {} (for [[k v] m] {(keyword (clojure.string/replace (name k) #"-" "_")) (dash-keys v)})))) {:test-me {:data {:val-here 1}}}) ;; mattmitchell
21:21	lazybot	⇒ {:test_me {:data {:val_here 1}}}
21:21	Scriptor	gfodor: would you like to do that PHP...in lisp?
21:21	amalloy	haha Scriptor, way to jump on that opportunity
21:21	gfodor	I wish i could
21:22	gfodor	are you the guy who wrote that php lisp thing?
21:22	Scriptor	yep
21:22	gfodor	nice :) that looked awesome
21:22	mattmitchell	amalloy: wow awesome! i'll check it out :)
21:22	gfodor	sadly, I'd have a hard time getting the powers that be to agree to it
21:22	gfodor	i couldn't even get clojure allowed in our JVM environment
21:23	Scriptor	amalloy: must convert moar
21:23	dsop	Scriptor: which one?
21:24	Scriptor	gfodor: yea, I know what you mean. Everybody on the project would still have to learn Pharen, though you could try the tactic that's suggested with Clojure of starting by using it for testing firs
21:24	Scriptor	dsop: it's not really clojure, but kinda close, http://scriptor.github.com/pharen/
21:25	Scriptor	I've taken a lot of ideas from clojure though, so a lot of looking at its source :)
21:25	gfodor	yeah, not gonna happen. we have a culture of basically PHP or die
21:25	gfodor	which is fine for certain things but not others
21:25	Raynes	gfodor: Mutiny. Take over the company. Conquer!
21:25	gfodor	helps spread code around, but if you want to do something hard, good luck!
21:25	Scriptor	I'll help :p
21:26	dsop	Scriptor: ah quite nice, but probably not very suitable in bigger environments with other devs working in non-lisp mode on the php sources
21:27	Scriptor	exactly, but then again when it comes to cross-language work coffeescript has done nicely
21:27	Scriptor	and now there's cljs!
21:27	dsop	if i would just get it to work :)
21:27	gfodor	yes, I am overcome with guilt thinking I might have to break up with coffeescript
21:28	Scriptor	hmm, very different coding styles, js was partially meant to be somewhat functional anyway
21:28	Scriptor	so going all the way would be nice
21:29	gfodor	you can't beat client/server parity
21:29	gfodor	coffee you get node of course but having the jvm is the elephant in the room
21:29	amalloy	the jvm is in fact an actual elephant
21:29	gfodor	yup
21:29	pmbauer	It doesn't look like any of the clojure/core devs have tried ClojureScript on windows
21:29	Scriptor	elephants have a high top speed, so that's an accurate analogy
21:30	pmbauer	getting a Pattern error when executing (re-pattern java.io.File/separator) on win
21:30	pmbauer	separator = "\\" on windows ... not a valid regex
21:31	pmbauer	cljs/compiler.clj:1096
21:31	amalloy	pmbauer: (re-pattern (java.util.regex.Pattern/quote (java.io.File/separator))) would work
21:32	amalloy	&(re-pattern (java.util.regex.Pattern/quote (java.io.File/separator))) would work
21:32	lazybot	⇒ #"\Q/\E"
21:32	pmbauer	amalloy: indeed ... fixed
21:32	Scriptor	trying to run the bootstrap script on windows under mingw32, it says it can't find clojure/compiler/compiler.jar
21:32	pmbauer	...and thanks
21:32	Scriptor	oh, nvm
21:33	Scriptor	unzip command not found -.-
21:37	pmbauer	Hm ... running into more path issues with the generated .js
21:38	pmbauer	...will have to try again when I get back to my linux box
21:38	pmbauer	...definitely not portable yet
21:48	pmbauer	Does anyone know how to file bug reports/patches for ClojureScript?
21:51	redinger	pmbauer: For now, please post the bug report to the Clojure mailing list. Our reporting system will be in place soon.
21:51	pmbauer	Okay
21:52	pmbauer	Should I post patches there as well?
21:52	pmbauer	(signed CA)
21:54	seancorfield_	will there be a clojurescript mailing list? or do you expect both implementations to be served by one list?
21:55	redinger	pmbauer: I don't have a good answer yet, unfortunately.
21:56	redinger	seancorfield_: Currently we're planning on a single mailing list
21:57	redinger	pmbauer: I don't see us taking patches prior to Friday.
21:57	redinger	Hopefully Friday we'll have something setup for that
21:57	seancorfield_	cool, thanx redinger!!
22:03	ahriman53072	i have seq of maps with counters like {:googleCount 10 :dz 20} and so on. I need to form HTML page with table with this data like: <tr><td style="...style1...">:googleCount</td><td style="...style2,..">:dz</td></tr>. How can i make this?
22:09	buddywilliams	good evening
22:09	buddywilliams	I am wondering how you eval a form that's quoted?
22:10	buddywilliams	let me pull together a quick example
22:10	buddywilliams	(apply func (first lst))
22:11	buddywilliams	gets me a java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Ifn
22:11	buddywilliams	exception
22:11	buddywilliams	I would like something like (quote (first lst))
22:13	buddywilliams	maybe everyone is sleeping at this hour?
22:18	kephale	,(apply (fn [x] x) (first (list 1 2)))
22:18	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
22:18	kephale	,((fn [x] x) (first (list 1 2)))
22:18	clojurebot	1
22:49	amalloy	hmmm, having trouble with bootstrapping. (require 'cljs.compiler) fails with CompilerException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: sun.org.mozilla.javascript.internal.Context, compiling:(cljs/compiler.clj:919). i'll look into it shortly, but has anyone else had this problem?
23:12	technomancy	I wonder if the moratorium on single-segment namespaces will be carried over into clojurescript out of habit.
23:13	chouser	amalloy: are you sure you're using sun jvm not openjdk or something else?
23:14	amalloy	chouser: not at all. i'm certain i'm using openjdk
23:15	amalloy	i don't see anywhere in the wiki that it says i need sun; i'm happy to take your word for it but it seems like it should be documented
23:15	chouser	amalloy: ah, yeah, that won't work. yet, anyway.
23:17	amalloy	technomancy: habit? it's critical for those folks who want to write their app once and run it on clr/jvm/js!
23:18	technomancy	amalloy: write once, run anywhere except openjdk?
23:19	dsantiago	Seems we're a long way from that being possible for non-trivial programs.
23:19	technomancy	dsantiago: I think amalloy is joking
23:19	amalloy	i assume a C backend is just days away
23:19	technomancy	dsantiago: rich has explicitly stated that's a non-goal.
23:19	dsantiago	technomancy: I know, but I did not pick up a malloy's sarcasm.
23:20	technomancy	he's certainly a sly one
23:22	dsantiago	It wouldn't be unreasonable to hope for that in Clojure one day, given how far other languages have gone on that path either.
23:22	technomancy	that sounds like a stretch. JS doesn't even have integers.
23:22	chouser	amalloy: updated the quickstart wiki, thanks.
23:23	dsantiago	Well, I'm still not used to JS being part of this world.
23:23	technomancy	I've toyed with the idea of an elisp port
23:23	dsantiago	JVM/CLR is not so crazy.
23:23	chouser	technomancy: easier now that before!
23:24	technomancy	chouser: yeah, I've been putting it off because I didn't want to be the first one
23:24	amalloy	on a crazy scale from 1 to 5, i give jvm/clr a 3
23:26	hv	how should I turn munged names like class_QMARK_ back to class? ?
23:27	technomancy	ok, brainstorming time, if you don't mind. notable lowly minions from fiction. go.
23:27	technomancy	all i've got so far is oompa lompas and the peons from Warcraft.
23:28	technomancy	maybe drinnols, but that's a stretch.
23:28	dsantiago	ewoks
23:29	technomancy	ewoks don't really serve an overlord; I'm not sure they'd count as minions as they're self-ruled.
23:29	Penten	goblins in lots of fantasy settings
23:29	technomancy	except for that part with C3PO
23:29	dsantiago	They don't until people land and tell them to build traps and stuff.
23:30	technomancy	also, lucasfilm is trigger-happy with the trademark C&Ds; see droid.
23:31	hv	what are you naming?
23:31	technomancy	hv: http://p.hagelb.org/minions.clj.html
23:31	technomancy	work queueing in under 100 loc
23:32	technomancy	it'll probably grow to 150 once I add timeouts and pooling though.
23:33	dsantiago	borg?
23:36	technomancy	https://github.com/orionz/minion <= already a very similar ruby lib
23:38	hv	it is more like a wisp than a peon
23:39	thorstadt_	golem?
23:40	stuarthalloway	Evening all...
23:42	Scriptor	evening stuarthalloway
23:50	technomancy	golem's not bad
23:51	hugod	oliver twist
23:52	technomancy	but "die roboter" would allow me to quote German in the readme: http://www.vinylsearcher.com/largeImages/894072.jpg
23:54	amalloy	technomancy: nanites aren't exactly minions, but...
23:54	dsantiago	But, libraries with first and last names is a trend you've started.
23:54	technomancy	dsantiago: well, due to the single-segment namespace moratorium.
23:55	technomancy	amalloy: too good to remain unclaimed, unfortunately: http://www.rubyinside.com/nanite-self-assembling-cluster-of-ruby-daemons-1245.html
23:56	amalloy	technomancy: i have good news: ruby code is namespaced differently than clojure code
23:56	technomancy	amalloy: heh; true. but from a fictional angle it's a stretch.
23:56	amalloy	yes
23:58	amalloy	technomancy: honeybees, except you want something with a proper name