#clojure – 2011-06-28

2011-06-28

02:30	ebaxt	Hi, I'm currently working on my first real clojure project, and I find myself wanting a mocking tool. So I was wondering what you are using? I tried googling, but I can't seem to find the "Mockito of the clojure world" :)
02:32	raek	ebaxt: https://github.com/marick/Midje is built for top-down TDD
02:33	raek	haven't used Mockito, so dunno if this is what you are really looking for
02:38	ebaxt	raek: Thanks. Mockito has sort of turned into the "next generation" mocking fwk for Java (JMock being first generation), and since the adoption is huge there is little risk of it being abandoned by it's maintainers.
02:39	ebaxt	raek: Searching for a mocking tool in Clojure it looks like there is a lot of small tools being thrown together, but maybe not being used by many. But would you say Midje is a safe bet in that regard?
02:43	raek	ebaxt: I don't have much experience with the mocking tools, so I don't know...
02:43	raek	ebaxt: also consider asking this on the google group
02:44	ebaxt	raek: Sure, I'll do that as well
04:24	Cozey	is it possible to use swank-cdt to break on ring middleware ? Usually the actual function called is a closure returned by some wrap-*
05:18	bsteuber	,(:foo :bar)
05:18	clojurebot	nil
05:19	bsteuber	I expected this throws an exception
05:20	Fossi	why should it?
05:20	Fossi	clojure rarely throws exceptions
05:20	Fossi	and :foo is just an accessor
05:21	Fossi	it can't find :foo in :bar, so...
05:21	Fossi	,(:foo {})
05:21	clojurebot	nil
05:21	Fossi	same really
05:56	lnostdal-laptop	hi guys; (refer 'clojure.core :exclude '(resultset-seq)) works .. but (use 'clojure.core :exclude '(resultset-seq)) states "unsupported option :exclude"
05:56	lnostdal-laptop	though, IIUC, the docs for USE state that i can use :exclude as done for REFER
06:00	terom	(use '[clojure.core :exclude (resultset-seq)])
06:00	lnostdal-laptop	..but whyyyy? ... heh :}
06:01	terom	use behaves likes require, which takes a libspec which is a vector
06:01	terom	refer on the other hand does not
06:02	lnostdal-laptop	ok, thanks
06:02	lnostdal-laptop	:)
06:02	lnostdal-laptop	the docs should state these things btw.
06:08	terom	well, (doc require) states that, but the docs does not have very many examples
06:09	terom	this could be helpful: http://blog.8thlight.com/articles/2010/12/6/clojure-libs-and-namespaces-require-use-import-and-ns
07:59	khaliG	(foo 20 [10 20 30]) -> [10 30] .. is there such a foo?
08:01	TobiasRaeder	well
08:01	TobiasRaeder	&(remove #(= % 20) [10 20 30])
08:01	sexpbot	⟹ (10 30)
08:01	TobiasRaeder	should do the trick
08:01	TobiasRaeder	;)
08:01	TobiasRaeder	remove is pretty much a inverse filter
08:02	jcromartie	,(remove #{20} [10 20 30])
08:02	clojurebot	(10 30)
08:02	khaliG	thanks :)
08:03	TobiasRaeder	(defn remove
08:03	TobiasRaeder	"Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which
08:03	TobiasRaeder	(pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."
08:03	TobiasRaeder	{:added "1.0"
08:03	TobiasRaeder	:static true}
08:03	TobiasRaeder	[pred coll]
08:03	TobiasRaeder	(filter (complement pred) coll))
08:03	TobiasRaeder	so yeah it is exactly the same
09:04	jcromartie	I find it odd when the clojure docs say "_ must be free of side effects"
09:05	jcromartie	that's never really true
09:07	gfrlog`	jcromartie: why not?
09:07	jcromartie	,(doc filter)
09:07	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns true. pred must be free of side-effects."
09:08	jcromartie	if pred has side-effects, filter will go right along its merry way
09:08	gfrlog`	jcromartie: ooh, I thought you meant that all functions have side effects
09:08	jcromartie	,(filter print [1 2 3])
09:08	clojurebot	123
09:08	clojurebot	()
09:08	jcromartie	the world didn't end
09:08	gfrlog`	jcromartie: maybe there are edge cases where something is repeated
09:08	jcromartie	definitely
09:09	gfrlog`	jcromartie: so wouldn't that justify the clause?
09:09	jcromartie	but I just find the language "must" to imply "otherwise it won't work"
09:09	gfrlog`	yeah...I guess "should" might be clearer.
09:11	clgv	well, it's written as condition for guaranteed functionality so "must" is alright ;)
09:12	gfrlog`	it's unnecesarily restrictive
09:12	gfrlog`	it could also say that the function must return a boolean
09:13	jcromartie	I'm wondering if there's any case where a pred with side-effects would break filter
09:13	clgv	well, if you want a guarantee you must follow the rules ;)
09:13	jcromartie	yes
09:13	gfrlog`	clgv: we're saying there's not a clear relevance -- what's being guaranteed?
09:14	clgv	filter is lazy, so if the side-effect state of the predicate changes from definining the lazy filter sequence until it consumption, you might get an entirely different result
09:15	gfrlog`	clgv: side effects don't have to change the return value of the function
09:15	clgv	I think, if you are using doall on filter you can use any predicate you like - side-effect free or not
09:15	gfrlog`	and you can have a side-effect-free function that still depends on state
09:15	gfrlog`	so I think that issue is orthogonal
09:16	clgv	gfrlog`: well then it's "practical side-effect free" if the side-effects have no impact on any result of that predicate ;)
09:16	gfrlog`	on another note, looking at the source, I can't imagine pred being called twice
09:16	gfrlog`	clgv: elsewhere "side-effect-free" is a requirement because the function might be called multiple times (e.g. swap!)
09:17	clgv	gfrlog`: calling a function multiple times is only one case where side-effects can do harm
09:17	clgv	gfrlog`: calling it delayed is another
09:17	gfrlog`	it seems rather arbitrary to tack that onto the filter docs though. If it works there, I would think it could apply to any higher-order-function
09:18	jcromartie	I guess if the pred has some mutable state
09:18	gfrlog`	if you're not using pure functions, you could get unexpected results. has nothing to do with filter
09:18	jcromartie	say, if the pred uses and changes an atom or ref
09:19	gfrlog`	jcromartie: certainly, but I think that issue is orthogonal to the behavior of filter
09:19	jcromartie	I think that's probably the meaning
09:19	clgv	gfrlog`: but thats very likely the reason for the side-effect free requirement in the docs when you look at the source
09:20	gfrlog`	,(doc map)
09:20	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
09:21	gfrlog`	clgv: you would want the requirement on map as well?
09:21	DerGuteMoritz	how about dorun
09:21	clgv	gfrlog`: lol, so you want to reason with probably incomplete documentation? :P
09:22	DerGuteMoritz	oh well, not really a HOF
09:22	gfrlog`	clgv: I just think it's distracting; any clojure user should know that pure functions make things simpler
09:22	jcromartie	I think it's fine to require side-effect free functions for things like map and filter
09:22	clgv	gfrlog`: and I guess documentation in clojure is intended to be used to get the programmers started - dont confuse it with exact specification
09:22	gfrlog`	there's nothing mystical about how filter works that makes it unclear how a stateful function would behave
09:22	DerGuteMoritz	"just follow the simple rules"
09:22	jcromartie	I just think it's odd to say "must" when the language can't enforce anything
09:22	jcromartie	it's not Haskell
09:23	jcromartie	:P
09:23	gfrlog`	lol, here's a fun contrast: ##(doc swap!)
09:23	sexpbot	⟹ "([atom f] [atom f x] [atom f x y] [atom f x y & args]); Atomically swaps the value of atom to be: (apply f current-value-of-atom args). Note that f may be called multiple times, and thus should be free of side effects. Returns the value that was swapped in."
09:23	gfrlog`	in that function, where it really matters, it uses "should" :)
09:24	clgv	jcromartie: I guess you have to read "must" as dont "cry and complain if it doesnt work otherwise" ;)
09:24	sritchie	gfrlog`, what does hof stand for?
09:24	gfrlog`	sritchie: higher-order-function
09:24	sritchie	I've been seeing hof? in the cascalog code and can't figure it out
09:24	sritchie	there we go :)
09:24	sritchie	thanks
09:24	gfrlog`	np
09:24	TimMc	let's see...
09:24	TimMc	hof?
09:24	gfrlog`	hand-over.
09:24	TimMc	clojurebot: hof?
09:24	clojurebot	Huh?
09:24	gfrlog`	foot?
09:25	jcromartie	(defn hof? "Returns true if x is David Hasselhoff" [x] ...)
09:25	TimMc	Someone inform the bot.
09:25	clgv	clojurebot: HOF is Higher-Order Function
09:25	clojurebot	c'est bon!
09:25	clgv	HOF?
09:25	clojurebot	HOF is Higher-Order Function
09:25	sritchie	Hippies on Funyuns
09:25	clgv	:)
09:25	TimMc	yay
09:25	gfrlog`	~hof
09:25	clojurebot	HOF is Higher-Order Function
09:25	sritchie	nice, clojurebot
09:26	clgv	he is quite a learner ;)
09:26	gfrlog`	~botsnack
09:26	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
09:26	TimMc	sometimes a little too much of one
09:26	gfrlog`	~botsnack chocolate
09:26	clojurebot	Cool story bro.
09:26	sritchie	haha
09:26	sritchie	~42
09:26	clojurebot	I don't understand.
09:26	gfrlog`	clojurebot: #42
09:26	clojurebot	42. You can measure a programmer's perspective by noting his attitude on the continuing vitality of FORTRAN.
09:26	clgv	clojurebot: #1
09:26	clojurebot	1. One man's constant is another man's variable.
09:27	clgv	lol
09:27	TimMc	Where's the list?
09:27	TimMc	Are these Perlisisms?
09:27	gfrlog`	$google "attitude on the continuing vitality of FORTRAN"
09:27	sexpbot	First out of 41 results is: Vitality Quotes Page 2 - BrainyQuote
09:27	sexpbot	http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/keywords/vitality_2.html
09:27	gfrlog`	hmm
09:28	gfrlog`	I'm going to guess it googled w/o quotes
09:28	TimMc	Looks like Alan Perlis, yeah.
09:28	clgv	seems to be brainyquote statements
09:28	gfrlog`	man googling with quotes isn't much better
09:28	TimMc	http://www.cs.yale.edu/quotes.html
09:29	gfrlog`	if you add clojurebot to the query it just returns IRC logs
09:30	gfrlog`	clojurebot: #41
09:30	clojurebot	41. Some programming languages manage to absorb change, but withstand progress.
09:30	clgv	clojurebot: #128
09:30	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
09:31	gfrlog`	they're all turing-complete, what's the difference
09:33	DerGuteMoritz	why does a Ring request split the URI into its components and associate the path component with the :uri key?
09:33	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: you mean splitting the path from the host and port?
09:34	DerGuteMoritz	gfrlog`: and the query-string, yes
09:34	DerGuteMoritz	I would expect the path to end up under :path
09:34	DerGuteMoritz	but its under :uri
09:34	DerGuteMoritz	hysterical raisins?
09:34	gfrlog`	well the host and port part I would say is because they're not ever together in HTTP I don't think
09:34	gfrlog`	as to why it splits the query string...I dunno, but it doesn't seem all that weighty either way :)
09:35	DerGuteMoritz	yeah sure, and :scheme is also not in there explicitly
09:35	DerGuteMoritz	oh well
09:35	DerGuteMoritz	now I know it anyway
09:58	khaliG	is there a but-nth?
09:59	gfrlog`	$findfn [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] 3 [1 2 3 4]
09:59	sexpbot	[]
09:59	gfrlog`	$findfn 2 [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] [1 2 3 4 5]
09:59	sexpbot	[clojure.core/drop-last]
09:59	gfrlog`	khaliG: that looks like it?
10:01	khaliG	mm not quite!
10:01	raek	,(loop [v [1 2 3 4 5 6 7], n 3] (if (zero? n) v (recur (pop v) (dec n))))
10:01	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
10:01	khaliG	$findfn [1 2 3 4 5] 2 [1 2 4 5]
10:01	sexpbot	[]
10:02	raek	khaliG: or did you want to remove a certain element?
10:02	khaliG	raek, yes
10:02	khaliG	i have a list of row data and wish to remove a given row item (indexing the list by row)
10:02	raek	khaliG: well, there's remove
10:03	raek	if the row has place structure (i.e. there are a fixed number of element and each mean something special) one way is to use destructuring and then build a new one
10:04	wastrel	i went to that 99 lisp questions site but what's a "box"
10:04	raek	wastrel: cons cell
10:05	raek	,(let [row [123 "abc" 456], [x y z] row] [x z])
10:05	clojurebot	[123 456]
10:05	wastrel	thx
10:05	raek	khaliG: do you use the row as a collection with varying number of elements or as a tuple with fixed number of elements
10:06	raek	(vectors no dot have an efficient way of removing elements from the middle)
10:06	khaliG	raek, my collection is made up of rows - and i wish to remove one, sorry i wasn't very clear before!
10:07	terom	would something like this be inefficient?: (defn but-nth [coll n] (concat (take (dec n) coll) (drop n coll)))
10:07	raek	khaliG: do you want to remove rows based on a certain rule or by index?
10:07	khaliG	raek, by index
10:07	raek	where do you get the index from?
10:07	DerGuteMoritz	terom: you could use split-with to avoid traversing the list twice
10:08	khaliG	raek, from a user click on a JTable
10:08	raek	ah, Java stuff...
10:08	khaliG	yep!
10:09	raek	you can do it like this: (defn remove-from-vector [v i] (into (subvec v 0 i) (subvec v (inc i))))
10:10	raek	which is basically like terom's solution but with vectors
10:10	raek	it's probably best to keep the data in vectors since the Java stuff wants to access the data by index
10:11	khaliG	sure, thank you
10:13	raek	I've seen code where people do tons of operations with indices that would simply have been much cleaner with functions like remove and filer...
10:13	khaliG	raek, okay. well, i could look for the row and then remove the result?
10:13	raek	so that's why I'm a bit reluctant to "accept" a solution that uses indices exstesively
10:13	khaliG	ah, understood
10:14	raek	in this case, the design decision was not yours... :)
10:14	khaliG	:)
10:16	terom	DerGuteMoritz: how to write the predicate for that? I assume the predicate fn gets the value from coll, but now it should filter by index. (Ok, probably could iterate the coll with some index...)
10:17	clgv	&(println (System/currentTimeMillis), (System/nanoTime))
10:17	sexpbot	⟹ 1309270635780 4587247584252735 nil
10:17	DerGuteMoritz	terom: true, that's a bit tricky
10:18	clgv	hmm nanoTime seems to be something different than I thought
10:18	clgv	Is it related to a timer that was zero when the hosting system booted?
10:20	gfrlog`	you could see if that's plausible by converting it to seconds
10:20	gfrlog`	in this case it's 1mo22days
10:21	gfrlog`	I guess by "seconds" I meant "normal time"
10:21	clgv	hmm I had a look at the javadoc: it is a timer of the hosting system
10:21	gfrlog`	the milliseconds is ~41 years as you'd expect
10:22	clgv	so I'll use currentTimeMillis since I need a timestamp
10:22	gfrlog`	nanos I guess would be gooder for execution time and such
10:23	clgv	yep. that's where I found it in my code base ;)
10:23	gfrlog`	&(System/femtoTime)
10:23	sexpbot	java.lang.NoSuchFieldException: femtoTime
10:24	clgv	lol. even nanoTime has no guaranteed accuracy of nano seconds ;)
10:25	gfrlog`	I don't think a Long is big enough to measure time in planck units :/
10:26	Fossi	it would just wrap pretty often
10:26	gfrlog`	:)
10:27	clgv	hmm if I have a function there is no possibility to get back a symbol of it's var, right?
10:27	gfrlog`	functions don't have vars
10:27	clgv	all my defns have :P
10:27	gfrlog`	it might have some info in the metadata some of the time though
10:27	gfrlog`	,(meta remove)
10:27	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name remove, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 2145, :arglists ([pred coll]), :added "1.0", :doc "Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which\n (pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."}
10:28	gfrlog`	looks like you could get the var from :ns and :name there
10:28	gfrlog`	,(meta #(% %))
10:28	clojurebot	nil
10:28	gfrlog`	the point being don't assume an arbitrary function has such a thing
10:29	gfrlog`	,(let [m (meta remove)] (class ((:ns m) (:name))))
10:29	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.Namespace cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
10:30	clgv	I have defns so it should work with meta
10:30	DerGuteMoritz	,(:name (meta remove))
10:30	clojurebot	remove
10:30	DerGuteMoritz	no?
10:30	gfrlog`	,(let [m (meta remove)] (class ((ns-map (:ns m)) (:name))))
10:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args passed to keyword: :name
10:30	gfrlog`	,(let [m (meta remove)] (class ((ns-map (:ns m)) (:name m))))
10:30	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Var
10:30	gfrlog`	ah hah there it is
10:31	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: ##(-> remove meta :name class)
10:31	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.lang.Symbol
10:31	clgv	well the symbol with name and namespace is enough
10:31	DerGuteMoritz	oh I thought he just wanted the name
10:31	gfrlog`	clgv: I'm not sure if you can get the name from a var...hmm
10:31	clgv	it's both in meta
10:32	gfrlog`	,(meta (var remove))
10:32	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name remove, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 2145, :arglists ([pred coll]), :added "1.0", :doc "Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which\n (pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."}
10:32	gfrlog`	nope there it is
10:33	gfrlog`	,(= (meta remove) (meta (var remove)))
10:33	clojurebot	true
10:33	clgv	I just need a full qualified symbol to be able to load that function again later if I need to.
10:34	gfrlog`	clgv: I'm curious what you're doing and what "load" means
10:34	clgv	:ns and :name will do
10:35	clgv	I am storing an execution configuration for later analysis. I might not have to load it later on but I must be able to identify which one was used
10:36	clgv	but with enough metadata (e.g. :doc) attached it would be easier to display what the function is supposed to do
10:37	gfrlog`	cool
10:38	clgv	yeah the execution framework with its configuration dsl turned out pretty cool :)
10:38	DerGuteMoritz	what is an execution framework?
10:39	DerGuteMoritz	a shell?
10:39	solussd_	it's a java threading framework
10:40	DerGuteMoritz	I see
10:40	clgv	nope in my case it's a framework that takes a dsl that specifies functions and parameters that shall be used and executes a given function for all possible combinations of those "values"
10:41	DerGuteMoritz	is there an auto runner for clojure.test?
10:45	jcromartie	clgv: what is that used for?
10:46	clgv	straight forward: running experiments with certain ranges and different strategies to see which one works best or what influences which parameter has.
10:47	clgv	s/ranges/ranges for parameters/
10:47	sexpbot	<clgv> straight forward: running experiments with certain ranges for parameters and different strategies to see which one works best or what influences which parameter has.
11:15	halfprogrammer	,(list? '(0 1 2 3))
11:15	clojurebot	true
11:15	halfprogrammer	,(list? (range 4))
11:15	clojurebot	false
11:16	halfprogrammer	why do we have this behavior?
11:16	jcromartie	,(type '())
11:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
11:16	jcromartie	,(type (range 4))
11:16	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
11:17	halfprogrammer	jcromartie: hmmm. just the printed representation of (range x y) looks like a list...
11:17	jcromartie	yes
11:17	jcromartie	there are more general predicates
11:17	halfprogrammer	coll? etc..?
11:17	raek	halfprogrammer: a seq and a persistent list is not the same thing, but all lists are seqs
11:17	raek	,(seq? '(0 1 2 3))
11:17	clojurebot	true
11:18	raek	,(seq? (range 4))
11:18	clojurebot	true
11:18	jcromartie	,(map (juxt seq? coll? vector? list?) '(() [] (range 10)))
11:18	clojurebot	([true true false true] [false true true false] [true true false true])
11:18	raek	a list keeps track of the length
11:18	halfprogrammer	what is the difference between seq? and sequential?
11:18	raek	halfprogrammer: vectors and sorted sets are sequential, but not seqs
11:18	jcromartie	,(map (juxt seq? coll? vector? list? sequential? assocaitive?) '(() [] (range 10) {} #{}))
11:18	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: assocaitive? in this context
11:18	halfprogrammer	raek: oh.. I dint know that
11:18	jcromartie	pp[s
11:18	jcromartie	,(map (juxt seq? coll? vector? list? sequential? associative?) '(() [] (range 10) {} #{}))
11:18	clojurebot	([true true false true true false] [false true true false true true] [true true false true true false] [false true false false false true] [false true false false false false])
11:19	jcromartie	this could go on :)
11:19	gfrlog`	jcromartie: then there's seqable as well
11:19	halfprogrammer	jcromartie: that's a nice table you have generated :)
11:19	jcromartie	,(sequential? (sorted-set))
11:19	clojurebot	false
11:20	jcromartie	wasn't sure about that one...
11:20	raek	I think that is a bug...
11:20	gfrlog`	here's an error that could be reported better: ##{:a}
11:20	raek	I recall hearing about it before
11:20	gfrlog`	&{:a}
11:20	sexpbot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 1
11:20	jcromartie	gfrlog`: what's the problem?
11:21	gfrlog`	jcromartie: it just took me a dang while to figure out what was going on :)
11:21	raek	gfrlog`: iirc, they made that throw a better message in 1.3
11:21	jcromartie	ah o
11:21	manutter	&{:a 1 :b}
11:21	sexpbot	java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 3
11:21	gfrlog`	I had (fn [{:keys method path-pattern}] on one line
11:21	manutter	interesting
11:21	gfrlog`	raek: that is good news
11:23	halfprogrammer	guys, what's the coolest clojure code you've seen?
11:24	halfprogrammer	i was looking into the destructuring code a couple of days back. It was nice
11:24	gfrlog`	halfprogrammer: I never admit that anybody else's code is cool, so my answer is http://twitter.com/#!/gfrlog/status/38726503944552448
11:25	manutter	I saw a blog post where somebody used closures to manipulate a red-black tree in a loop/recur
11:26	halfprogrammer	gfrlog`: short & sweet
11:26	gfrlog`	halfprogrammer: yeah I was surprised
11:27	manutter	http://goo.gl/XlYHR
11:30	halfprogrammer	manutter: looks scary when people go out of the way to write a (awesome) tail recursive algorithm
11:31	jcromartie	gfrlog`: that's cool
11:31	manutter	halfprogrammer: I was certainly impressed
11:33	halfprogrammer	any word on cemerick's clojure survey?
11:34	cemerick	halfprogrammer: the squirrels are working on the results post right now
11:34	cemerick	honestly, I'm swamped with the book at the moment, which has put a pinch on my blogging deadlines
11:35	cemerick	The results post will go out either later today or Thursday
11:36	halfprogrammer	cemerick: excited both abt the book & the survey results :)
11:37	cemerick	:-)
11:39	jcromartie	ed
11:39	halfprogrammer	gfrlog`: so, how's ur experience with emacs been?
11:40	gfrlog`	halfprogrammer: I've totally resisted doing anything besides clunking around ERC
11:40	gfrlog`	my flashiest skill is that I can pull up previous statements using Alt+p
11:41	halfprogrammer	is lisp development with vim good?
11:41	gfrlog`	it might be halfway good, but I'm not even good at it :) I just use it as a text editor and if it colors things then I'm happy
11:42	gfrlog`	everything else for me is just tmux and lein
11:42	TimMc	halfprogrammer: No, iti s chartreuse.
11:42	TimMc	Stupid ergonomic keyboard.
11:43	halfprogrammer	:P
11:43	TimMc	typonomic
11:45	halfprogrammer	clojure vs scala war has started in my office (ThoughtWorks)
11:46	halfprogrammer	some clojure fanboy (I think) wrote an internal mail with "is scala dead?" as the subject
11:46	sritchie	hey all, is anyone here using marginalia 1.6?
11:46	sritchie	0.6.0, rather
11:46	gfrlog`	have a competition to see who can write parsers for their respective languages the fastest
11:46	halfprogrammer	whole discussion was both heated & informative
11:50	Cozey	does leiningen plugin has some kind of an init function?
11:50	Cozey	i'd like to create a plugin which creates hooks for other plugins
11:52	solussd	scala seems 'over-engineered' to me. It's a continuation of the layering of features on top of fortran and C-like languages to modernize them rather than the more natural approach to new features available to lisp/lisp-like languages. Didn't Backus warn us about scala 35 years ago? :D
11:53	halfprogrammer	solussd: :D
11:54	jcromartie	gfrlog`: spend some time with paredit-mode
11:54	jcromartie	it's really really really great
11:55	jcromartie	halfprogrammer: how big is ThoughtWorks, BTW? I got the impression that it was small
11:56	halfprogrammer	approx 1600 people I guess
11:56	halfprogrammer	including ppl other than engineers
11:58	jcromartie	oh wow, huh
11:58	jcromartie	is Clojure really in use there?
11:59	halfprogrammer	I find a lot of guys using it for their personal projects and stuff.
11:59	halfprogrammer	No client projects in Clojure yet
11:59	fliebel	where?
11:59	clojurebot	where is log
11:59	halfprogrammer	ThoughtWorks
12:07	bpr	does anyone know why https://github.com/briprowe/timer-oddity would hang the clojure compiler?
12:07	bpr	i type "lein jar" and it hangs
12:08	TimMc	clojurebot: forget where is log
12:08	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
12:08	bpr	oddly if i remove ":main timer-oddity.core" from the project.clj file it compiles fine
12:09	hiredman	bpr: making a jar is not compiling
12:09	bpr	ok
12:09	bpr	but, i still need to compile the thing
12:10	halfprogrammer	clojurebot: you're awesome
12:10	clojurebot	Pardon?
12:11	bpr	hiredman: lein compile hangs as well (also, only when i declare a "main")
12:13	jcromartie	bpr: I cannot accept the Eclipse Public License to troubleshoot this
12:13	jcromartie	:P kidding of course
12:13	bpr	haha
12:14	bpr	yeah that's leinengen boilerplate
12:15	cemerick	bpr: my guess is that the Timer you're creating isn't using a daemon thread, and so will prevent the JVM from exiting
12:15	cemerick	use (Timer. true)
12:16	bpr	cemerick: that's most likely it... /facepalm
12:17	bpr	ty
12:17	cemerick	:-)
12:17	jcromartie	RTFMFTW
12:19	semperos	I've asked a similar q recently, but wanted to get more details
12:19	semperos	I'd like to use Clojure datastructures for defining configuration files in my app
12:19	semperos	these files should not be kept under version control
12:20	semperos	does it make sense just to use a regular namespaced Clojure file with vars for hodling config values, and just provide a "blank" file for the user to fill in and possibly rename (to be able to pass around a consistent .gitignore)
12:23	jcromartie	look at how project.clj works in Leiningen
12:23	jcromartie	I think that's a decent model
12:24	jcromartie	the idea is to just read the file (as in the "read" functions) and use that result
12:24	jcromartie	you can control the loading of the file that way, and what is executed and what is not
12:24	technomancy	leiningen's model is a little different as it involves the defproject macro
12:24	technomancy	but you can just use load-file on a file that contains an arbitrary data structure
12:25	gfrlog`	technomancy: read would be safer than load-file, right?
12:25	jcromartie	load-file looks good
12:25	technomancy	gfrlog`: only if you disable eval-at-read
12:26	gfrlog`	ah hah
12:26	technomancy	even then, if someone's compromised your config files, it's probably a lost cause
12:26	gfrlog`	which only concerns #=(), right?
12:26	technomancy	aye
12:27	semperos	yeah, for config files, dealing with "malicious" code not as big a deal
12:27	technomancy	we have some code in our config files that allows things like queue names to be uniquified during concurrent test runs but uses canonical names in production.
12:27	technomancy	which you can't do with read
12:27	semperos	hmm
12:27	semperos	thanks for the feedback, everyone, I'll play around with it
12:33	halfprogrammer	I am having to write stupid code like (is (= true (falsey? (before lst 2 1)))) etc
12:34	halfprogrammer	because (false? nil) is false
12:34	hiredman	clojure.test's (is ) treats nil the same as false
12:34	halfprogrammer	is there any proper way to write these things?
12:35	bendlas	,(nil? nil)
12:35	clojurebot	true
12:35	bendlas	,(nil? false)
12:35	clojurebot	false
12:35	halfprogrammer	,(false? nil)
12:35	clojurebot	false
12:35	halfprogrammer	this is the problem for me
12:36	dakrone	why do you need to use 'false?' ?
12:36	cemerick	,(doc false?)
12:36	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if x is the value false, false otherwise."
12:36	halfprogrammer	hiredman: you mean (is (not before lst 2 1)))
12:36	cemerick	,(if nil 5 6)
12:36	clojurebot	6
12:36	halfprogrammer	something like ^ this would work?
12:36	raek	(is (not (before lst 2 1)))
12:36	hiredman	halfprogrammer: what do you mean?
12:37	halfprogrammer	raek: sorry, i left out a pair of ()
12:37	hiredman	have you just tried it?
12:37	halfprogrammer	hiredman: am about to try it...give me 1 sec
12:38	raek	halfprogrammer: if you have something that is truthy or falsey, just use it in the (is ...) form directly.
12:38	raek	you can use the 'boolean' function in cases where you really need it to be either true of false (e.g. calling a java method that takes a boolean)
12:39	halfprogrammer	raek: hiredman: that works. I don't know why I dint try it :D
13:08	derp__	dang it, yesterday I had "lein swank" working fine, and today when I try it I get this: https://gist.github.com/1051619
13:09	derp__	man I have bad luck with computers
13:09	technomancy	derp__: you have multiple versions of swank again
13:11	derp__	technomancy: again, you were right :P
13:14	derp__	should I include swank as a :dev requirement for my projects? I mean if that conflicts with lein, what's the point?
13:14	technomancy	better to keep it as a user-level plugin
13:15	technomancy	theoretically non-emacs-users could work on your project; why make them pull in a dep they won't use
13:15	derp__	okay, well thank you for that explanation technomancy
13:18	technomancy	sure
13:22	gfrlog`	somebody creating a clojure library for dating?
13:22	cemerick	Hot Clojure singles are waiting for you!
13:23	gfrlog`	:)
13:24	cemerick	Most apps I've written don't need much more than milliseconds since the epoch + ISO date strings.
13:24	cemerick	For anything beyond that, I presume simply using jodatime is recommended.
13:25	gfrlog`	leap-seconds might get removed from UTC
13:26	cemerick	This is all I've ever needed, but again, I'm a simpleton in this area: https://github.com/cemerick/utc-dates
13:26	technomancy	that's it; I'm switching to Stardates
13:27	gfrlog`	one simplifying technique I use is to never make software that will be used by people in different time zones
13:28	cemerick	things get a whole lot simpler if you just assume everyone is in London.
13:28	gfrlog`	because they are, aren't they?
13:28	technomancy	and if they aren't, they wish they were
13:28	gfrlog`	we're just helping them fantasize
13:29	jcromartie	gfrlog`: that's a great idea
13:29	jcromartie	we just added a "country" dropdown which includes Canada, but we still only list US states
13:29	hiredman	cemerick: OH'ed
13:31	gfrlog`	jcromartie: it's easy enough to imagine that Canada is a US State, so that makes sense to me
13:31	hiredman	imagine?
13:32	gfrlog`	hiredman: rather than two US states of Canada and Quebec?
13:32	jcromartie	gfrlog`: agreed
13:33	hiredman	:/
13:50	cemerick	It looks like lein-ring is not yet 1.3-friendly?
13:51	cemerick	or, it depends upon hiccup apparently, which isn't? (e.g. Can't dynamically bind non-dynamic var: hiccup.core/html-mode)
13:52	technomancy	wait, lein-ring depends on hiccup? =(
13:52	amalloy	cemerick: i'm a leetle surprised lein-ring has anything to do with hiccup
13:52	amalloy	more likely, it seems to me, your app is trying to bind hiccup, and lein is just obediently starting your server
13:52	cemerick	Not sure what to say; I've never used it before, but `lein deps`; `lein ring server` dumps on me.
13:53	cemerick	amalloy: this is a hello world app — no hiccup anywhere in my code
13:53	davekong	Is sort guarenteed to be a stable sort?
13:53	amalloy	well, gross
13:53	amalloy	&(doc sort)
13:53	sexpbot	⟹ "([coll] [comp coll]); Returns a sorted sequence of the items in coll. If no comparator is supplied, uses compare. comparator must implement java.util.Comparator."
13:54	davekong	That does not say
13:54	amalloy	davekong: looks like it's not guaranteed, but i wouldn't really mind relying on it myself
13:54	cemerick	Is there any dependency graph visualization in lein?
13:55	technomancy	hiredman: you had something like that, didn't you?
13:55	amalloy	since (a) j.u.Collections.sort has been stable for like a decade, and (b) clojure is likely to keep using it
13:55	cemerick	technomancy: nm, I just used Eclipse
13:55	hiredman	not really, mine was on the namespace level, not project level
13:55	hugod	lein pom; mvn dependency:tree
13:55	cemerick	The ironies are deep. ;-)
13:55	technomancy	dependency:tree is really nice.
13:55	technomancy	I still keep mvn around mostly for that.
13:56	cemerick	so, it goes: lein-ring ----> ring-devel ----> hiccup
13:56	cemerick	technomancy: I'm permanently hooked on m2eclilpse's dep hierarchy view.
13:56	cemerick	so, yeah, hiccup is required by lein-ring. Why, I can't imagine.
13:57	technomancy	I would have a hard time classifying that as anything but a bug.
13:58	cemerick	https://github.com/mmcgrana/ring/blob/master/ring-devel/project.clj
13:58	cemerick	:-(
13:58	cemerick	been like that for a while; likely not going to change quicly
13:58	cemerick	quickly*
13:59	technomancy	exclusions maybe?
14:01	technomancy	oh, it may be that it uses hiccup to generate HTML versions of stack traces? that seems not unreasonable.
14:01	cemerick	This is for the book (thus why I'm tripping around with lein-ring to begin with); if I can't get the simple stuff to be simple, then the point is lost. Hopefully a message to the list will prompt the 1.3-ification of hiccup.
14:02	technomancy	definitely
14:03	cemerick	is there not a dedicated ring ML?
14:03	hiredman	there is
14:03	hiredman	a google group
14:03	cemerick	ah, ring-clojure, thanks
14:03	hiredman	very low traffic
14:04	hiredman	I asked a question a week or two ago and have yet to get a response
14:04	cemerick	We'll see how it goes. I'd lobby for the elimination of hiccup entirely, but one step at a time. :-P
14:05	hiredman	http://groups.google.com/group/ring-clojure/browse_thread/thread/8f35a9c811a2c381
14:05	cemerick	yuck
14:07	technomancy	I wonder why the prags' ring book fell through.
14:08	jcromartie	technomancy: maybe there wasn't enough to say?
14:08	jcromartie	It's a pretty small librarry.
14:09	technomancy	jcromartie: well, I think it was targeting ring and the ring ecosystem
14:09	jcromartie	I am pretty sure that things like Ring and Rack are just chapters in books on frameworks sitting on top.
14:09	technomancy	and they were shooting for a shorter ebook
14:09	technomancy	but perhaps things were just changing too rapidly
14:09	jcromartie	oops
14:09	cemerick	It's really early for topical books like that, I'd think.
14:09	jcromartie	Command + W'ed
14:10	cemerick	I know people would appreciate a dedicated Incanter book, but again, really small market.
14:10	technomancy	probably true, though mini-ebooks have a much lower barrier
14:11	technomancy	but it would probably be a better book if it waited for the ecosystem to solidify a bit
14:11	technomancy	have a few more tools for common tasks like user handling and form construction
14:15	derp__	if I have a bunch of clojure projects folder, should I run swank in the toplevel directory containing them all, or can I only run it within project folders?
14:37	Dranik	hi all!
14:38	timvisher	hi
14:42	derp__	is there a way to run swank on multiple projects simultaneously?
14:42	derp__	or do I have to run separate versions and connect to each independently
14:43	manutter	derp__: I don't think you necessarily want to, at least in the general case
14:43	derp__	?
14:44	manutter	you should run each swank in its own project because of the classpaths
14:44	derp__	but how do you work on multiple projects simulataneously
14:44	derp__	and then connect to each separately?
14:44	manutter	that said, you may have a specific case where all your projects are using the same libs, in which case my caveat would be moot
14:45	manutter	but I'm not sure the usual tools will find the classpaths for multiple projects at once
14:47	manutter	i'm guessing you can connect to multiple swanks, but I don't know what that would cost in ram terms
14:47	derp__	um, how do I connect to different versions? I am running "lein swank 4011" and trying to connect, but I get this weird warning: "Close old connections first? (y or n)"
14:48	amalloy	i'd say, press y if and only if you want to close your old connections first :P
14:48	manutter	use different ports
14:48	derp__	yeah, I am using 4010 for the other swank server
14:48	manutter	oh wait I see what you mean
14:49	manutter	you're trying to connect to different swank servers from the same session
14:49	derp__	yep
14:49	manutter	I'd run separate emacs instances myself
14:49	derp__	really?
14:49	manutter	but that may be just because I don't know any better
14:49	technomancy	manutter: no, that's what I do
14:50	technomancy	slime is pretty crappy at handling multiple connections
14:50	manutter	I'm going to have to bail out now, later all
14:50	technomancy	derp__: you might be interested in checkout dependencies though; see lein help readme in the faq
14:52	coopernurse	general design question.. let's say you're writing an app that consumes a web service, does some transforms on the data and saves to a sql db. I assume the functional approach would be to isolate the i/o (impure) code off from the pure transform code.
14:52	coopernurse	is that the right way to think about things generally?
14:53	timvisher	coopernurse: i'd say yes
14:53	timvisher	but i'm not authoritative
14:53	timvisher	that's what i've tried to do in my apps
14:53	derp__	technomancy: so if I understand that faq right, I should do this: project-dir/checkouts/sym-link-to-other-project-dir
14:53	coopernurse	timvisher: great. are you using some mocking lib to test the functions that do i/o
14:53	derp__	and I can have multiple symlinks?
14:53	technomancy	derp__: indeed
14:53	derp__	sweet
14:53	Cozey	technomancy: hello. I've got an issue with Lancet's coerce multi function: https://github.com/technomancy/lancet/blob/master/src/lancet/core.clj#L28 in my scenario dest-cls is int, so I guess Integer/TYPE. the obj is Clojure number, so a Long. I'd like to add some coerce defmultis, but I'm not sure which ones: it would be good to cover also Short values - should we use (.intValue obj) yielding int, or should we just convert to Integer, and let
14:53	Cozey	auto-unbox it to int, if it needs?
14:54	Cozey	the problem is (cast int 123) will throw classcastexception
14:55	technomancy	Cozey: lein is on clojure 1.2, so all return values are going to have to be boxed
14:56	Cozey	mhm, so it sohuld be (Short. (.shortValue 123)) ?
14:56	technomancy	I'm not sure; I don't really know what coerce is used for
14:57	Cozey	it's used when an 'Scp' ant task wants setPort(int)
14:57	Cozey	and lancet tries to fill in the properties
14:57	Cozey	using coerce multi-fun to change clojure types to something ant task object can accept
14:58	technomancy	Integer. is probably what you want?
14:58	Cozey	under clojure 1.2, all numbers are Long or Integer ?
14:58	hiredman	you wonder why it just doesn't call it reflectively
14:59	Cozey	technomancy: yes for this case yes, but i want to commit a patch so I'd like to add Short support as well
14:59	Cozey	and Long
14:59	Cozey	but: clj 1.3 uses Long by default
14:59	Cozey	and clj 1.2 ?
15:00	Cozey	hiredman: yeah it uses some writermethod
15:00	hiredman	(clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod obj "setPort" (into-array [port-number]))
15:01	Cozey	hiredman: any better idea?
15:01	hiredman	Cozey: ^-
15:01	Cozey	O_o
15:16	michigan101	https://market.android.com/details?id=com.game.WarStrategy
15:30	tufflax	Can I use hiccup for arbitrary XML, not just HTML?
15:31	amalloy	tufflax: i think you want c.c.prxml for that. hiccup might be based on it, even
15:31	amalloy	but they take basically the same format
15:32	tufflax	ok, thanks
15:40	rindolf	Hi all.
15:40	rindolf	When trying to follow the instructions here - http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Eclipse+and+Counterclockwise - I'm getting this - http://pastie.org/2135881 . What should I do?
15:47	cemerick	rindolf: what version of Eclipse are you using?
15:49	rindolf	cemerick: eclipse-3.6.2-13.mga2.src.rpm
15:50	cemerick	Seems sane enough
15:51	cemerick	rindolf: hrm, that's a src bundle from some linux distro?
15:52	rindolf	cemerick: it's the Mageia Cauldron source rpm.
15:52	rindolf	cemerick: it ends up as eclipse-jdt-3.6.2-13.mga2
15:52	cemerick	rindolf: my first suggestion would be to go get a suitable binary from eclipse.org
15:52	rindolf	cemerick: why?
15:52	rindolf	cemerick: it is a binary.
15:53	cemerick	I mean an officially-packaged binary.
15:53	cemerick	Who knows what got left on the repository packager's cutting room floor.
15:54	cemerick	That error indicates that eclipse is looking for a package (some OSGI dependency?, presumably a fairly sane thing to do), but the set of configured repositories you have doesn't include the one it needs.
15:55	cemerick	rindolf: You could pass that paste to the people in #eclipse, and they might have a better clue.
15:55	rindolf	cemerick: OK.
15:56	cemerick	rindolf: let me know how it pans out either way
15:57	rindolf	cemerick: OK.
16:07	pcavs_	,(seq? [1 2 3])
16:07	clojurebot	false
16:07	pcavs_	,(doc seq)
16:07	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns a seq on the collection. If the collection is empty, returns nil. (seq nil) returns nil. seq also works on Strings, native Java arrays (of reference types) and any objects that implement Iterable."
16:08	amalloy	&(map (juxt seq seq? sequential?) ['(1) [1] []])
16:08	sexpbot	⟹ ([(1) true true] [(1) false true] [nil false true])
16:09	amalloy	huh, i didn't realize ##(seq? '(1)) returned a non-boolean
16:09	sexpbot	⟹ true
16:09	amalloy	maybe i just can't read
16:11	jcromartie	,(seq? (seq []))
16:11	clojurebot	false
16:11	jcromartie	:)
16:12	cemerick	It seems that lein-ring requires a :target-dir key in project.clj — but I don't see any documentation of this anywhere. Am I missing something obvious?
16:13	cemerick	(e.g. perhaps :target-dir should be getting set to a default — "target" or ".", perhaps — but isn't for some reason in my environment?)
16:13	derp__	why is it that lein converts projects with dashes into underscores?
16:13	technomancy	cemerick: it's set by default since lein 1.5
16:13	derp__	my-project becomes my_project
16:13	hiredman	cemerick: didn't require it for me
16:14	technomancy	or rather, it defaults to the project root
16:14	hiredman	ah
16:14	hiredman	well, there you go
16:14	cemerick	technomancy: Bah! I just did a clean self-install and I see I have 1.2.0! :-(
16:14	devn	cemerick: private msg
16:14	devn	(when you have a moment)
16:15	cemerick	Bugger; an old `lein` bootstrap on my PATH.
16:15	cemerick	technomancy, hiredman: thanks
16:17	technomancy	I hope to have .debs at some point to make that one less thing to worry about
16:17	technomancy	though if you're on os x it's already in brew
16:18	cemerick	technomancy: no worries, my bad. I chafe at any repo manager in OS X anyways.
16:18	technomancy	agreed
16:18	technomancy	though I chafe more at not having a package manager at all. but there's an easy solution to that.
16:20	cemerick	Lots of easy solutions, actually.
16:20	wastrel	hi
16:20	wastrel	my friend has a farm
16:21	cemerick	We should chuck all these newfangled computer things until they actually work properly.
16:21	wastrel	they rent their fields out to their neighbors, they don't farm on them actually
16:21	ibdknox	lol
16:21	ibdknox	that's awesome
16:21	ibdknox	tenant farmers
16:30	rpglover64	I come seeking enlightenment, after not finding it in the vast open web.
16:31	rpglover64	I'm using deftype to implement an interface
16:32	rpglover64	the problem is that it also needs to have a nullary constructor
16:33	rpglover64	how could I add one to it?
16:33	hiredman	which deftype has if you don't specify fields
16:33	rpglover64	but it needs to store data somehow
16:34	rpglover64	and the nullary constructor would have to do initialization
16:36	rpglover64	I guess i could ask, how could I have things that behave like private data fields without specifying them to deftype
16:37	rindolf	cemerick: it works fine with the Eclipse build from http://www.eclipse.org/ .
16:37	cemerick	rindolf: Excellent, good to know :-)
16:38	cemerick	rindolf: tell your distro's package manager to stop messing with things ;-)
16:38	cemerick	s/manager/maintainer
16:38	sexpbot	<cemerick> rindolf: tell your distro's package maintainer to stop messing with things ;-)
16:40	dnolen	rpglover64: not possible really.
16:40	rpglover64	That's what I thought
16:41	rpglover64	which is why I asked "how do I add a nullary constructor to a deftype'd class"
16:41	dnolen	rpglover64: deftype is hosty, but is opinionated enough that you can really think of it as interop.
16:42	dnolen	s/can/can't
16:42	sexpbot	<dnolen> rpglover64: deftype is hosty, but is opinionated enough that you can't really think of it as interop.
16:42	dnolen	rpglover64: perhaps proxy is better suited for this task.
16:42	rpglover64	cool!
16:42	rpglover64	it actually needs to be a class :(
16:43	rpglover64	off to gen-class land? :(
16:43	dnolen	rpglover64: what interface are you implementing?
16:44	rpglover64	it's part of an intro to programming in java final assignment
16:45	rindolf	cemerick: OK, I'm following this - http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Eclipse+and+Counterclockwise and it says: «Run it: Select the firstClojureProject>src>helloworld.clj file, then menu Run > Run as > Clojure REPL.» but I cannot find it anywhere under src/ in the project view.
16:45	rpglover64	so I'm using it to learn clojure
16:45	derp__	I'm trying to write documentation, when a word is in brackets it's assumed to be a dir, a la [dir], right?
16:46	derp__	or is that a fictitious standard I just muddled up
16:46	cemerick	rindolf: you created the helloworld.clj file, right?
16:46	rindolf	cemerick: yes, I did.
16:46	cemerick	rindolf: and you can't find that file in the project view?
16:46	rindolf	cemerick: yes, exactly.
16:47	cemerick	so you created the file somewhere other than `src`, I presume.
16:48	rindolf	cemerick: I did not.
16:48	rpglover64	dnolen: the problem is that to make the pretty graphical part of the assignment (that the instructor wrote) use the student's implementation of the logic, the object that would start the game expects to be passed in a class implementing the interface, and will proceed to use it for all its logic needs.
16:49	rindolf	cemerick: and I cannot find it anywhere else.
16:50	cemerick	rindolf: OK; right-click the src dir, and choose New > File; name it helloworld.clj, and go from there.
16:50	rindolf	cemerick: it says the file already exists.
16:50	cemerick	rindolf: did you create the file outside of eclipse (e.g. in a terminal?)
16:51	rindolf	cemerick: no, I did not.
16:52	rpglover64	can a proxy be passed to a java method that expects a class (no, right?)
16:52	cemerick	rindolf: select the top-level project node, and hit F5 (refresh); does the file appear where you think it should be?
16:52	dnolen	rpglover64: interface dictating ctors seems weird, but perhaps normal in the Java world?
16:52	rpglover64	interface doesn't have constructors
16:52	rpglover64	java forbids it syntactically
16:53	rindolf	cemerick: no, it does not.
16:53	rpglover64	but in this case, it's like an obj-c informal protocol
16:53	rpglover64	the object receiving the class expects it to have a nullary constructor
16:53	rindolf	cemerick: nothing happens upon refresh.
17:01	coopernurse	I'm reading this page: http://freegeek.in/blog/2011/06/10-clojure-one-liners/
17:02	coopernurse	and when I try out #7 - (clojure.xml/parse "http://search.twitter.com/search.atom?&q=clojure")
17:02	coopernurse	in emacs/slime I get a huge backtrace / debug buffer
17:02	coopernurse	that I'm not sure how to make sense of.. Is there anything obviously wrong with that #7 example? If I paste it into a browser I get XML back from twitter
17:02	rpglover64	,(clojure.xml/parse "http://search.twitter.com/search.atom?&q=clojure")
17:03	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.net.SocketPermission search.twitter.com:80 connect,resolve)
17:03	rpglover64	makes sense
17:03	dnolen_	rpglover64: so the assignment requires you to create those ctors - in Clojure it's idiomatic to provide them as fns.
17:03	rpglover64	yes
17:04	hiredman	coopernurse: read the doc string for parse
17:05	rpglover64	dnolen_: do I pretty much need gen-class to do that?
17:05	coopernurse	hiredman: ok
17:05	hiredman	actually, I take that back, read the stacktrace instead
17:06	coopernurse	it hoses my swank process.. so I'm restarting it
17:06	coopernurse	hiredman: you're getting the same error I assume?
17:06	dnolen_	rpglover64: well I mean were you planning on writting it Clojure and converting it back to Java? :)
17:06	rpglover64	no, i'm not in the class
17:06	hiredman	coopernurse: no, I'm not
17:07	rpglover64	i'm just using the the final project to learn clojure interop
17:07	coopernurse	hiredman: ah. ok.. let me verify my clojure version real quick
17:07	rpglover64	and clojure in general
17:07	hiredman	coopernurse: I am not running the code at all
17:07	dnolen_	rpglover64: but why limit yourself to the arbitrary constraint?
17:08	rpglover64	dnolen_: i'm not sure i understand how it's an arbitrary constraint
17:09	rpglover64	i'm looking at it from the perspective of "I have some java code I need to interop with"
17:09	rpglover64	and to interop, I need to have the constructor
17:10	dnolen_	rpglover64: sorry, I forgot it's the Java code that will call your ctor.
17:11	dnolen_	rpglover64: and you said the Java code will call your initializer ?
17:12	rpglover64	initializer?
17:12	dnolen_	rpglover64: you said something about initialization.
17:13	rpglover64	the java code will call a nullary constructor, which is expected to do the initialization
17:15	dnolen_	rpglover64: what about a interop deftype which just calls the actual ctor fn?
17:17	coopernurse	I think perhaps the URL is getting mangled
17:17	coopernurse	going to try another URL.
17:19	rpglover64	dnolen_: that either doesn't implement the interface or needs to have something like a field that isn't a field (afa deftype is concerned)
17:20	dnolen_	rpglover64: because the Java side isn't functional, it's going to side effect the result of the ctor call?
17:21	rpglover64	dnolen_: it's going to construct the object and then start using it... i'm not sure what you mean by side effect in this case
17:23	dnolen_	rpglover64: in Clojure you construct instances, but using it means producing new instances.
17:24	dnolen_	not always of course, but a considerable amount of the time.
17:24	rpglover64	dnolen_: but isn't that the primary effect, not a side-effect?
17:26	DerGuteMoritz	is there a function like Scheme's string-prefix? in clojure.core or .contrib?
17:26	DerGuteMoritz	i.e. a function that checks whether one string is a prefix of the other
17:27	dnolen_	rpglover64: part of the problem is ctors in Java are notorious for state/concurrency bugs, since a nullary ctor means you have this gap between object instantiation and initialization. deftype avoids that, but it means it's hard to make it work for your use case.
17:27	amalloy	$google java lang string startsWith
17:27	sexpbot	First out of 23700 results is: String (Java Platform SE 6)
17:27	sexpbot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/6/docs/api/java/lang/String.html
17:27	technomancy	,(.startsWith "stella" "ste")
17:28	clojurebot	true
17:28	amalloy	technomancy: ninja'd?
17:28	amalloy	kinda not sure. yours might be more practical
17:28	technomancy	we'll call it a draw
17:28	DerGuteMoritz	ah, keep forgetting to check the Java APIs
17:28	DerGuteMoritz	thanks!
17:28	rpglover64	dnolen_: well, in this case, I expect the constructor to return an initialized object
17:29	bhenry	is there a way to walk through a collection and have a counter given to me for each run?
17:29	amalloy	&(doc map-indexed)
17:29	sexpbot	⟹ "([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to 0 and the first item of coll, followed by applying f to 1 and the second item in coll, etc, until coll is exhausted. Thus function f should accept 2 arguments, index and item."
17:29	amalloy	or, ##(map vector (range) [:a :b :c])
17:29	sexpbot	⟹ ([0 :a] [1 :b] [2 :c])
17:30	derp__	I can't figure out how to call a function from another file
17:30	amalloy	technomancy: 50% seems like it might be low
17:30	derp__	https://gist.github.com/1052284
17:30	derp__	I ran lein uberjar and run the standalone, and then I get this error: https://gist.github.com/1052292
17:31	derp__	here's the original with syntax highlighting: https://gist.github.com/1052284
17:34	bhenry	amalloy: thanks
17:38	derp__	I must be screwing up something obvious, but it's not apparent to me
17:51	bpr	where does contrib.repl-utils live now that the contrib library has been broken up?
17:54	brehaut	bpr: not all the old contrib libs have been moved to new contrib yet (in fact, very few have)
17:55	brehaut	bpr: looking at http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Contrib+Projects it appears to be one of the libs not migrated yet
18:01	bpr	sweet, didn't know about that url. thanks, brehaut
18:11	rpglover64	brehaut: I was told that I should ask you about coming to clojure from a haskell background
18:12	brehaut	rpglover64: really? curious
18:12	brehaut	rpglover64: how much haskell do you know?
18:13	amalloy	brehaut: surely i wasn't wrong to recommend you
18:13	brehaut	amalloy: if im one of the more experienced haskellers here, im surprised
18:14	amalloy	you're the loudest, as far as i've noticed
18:14	brehaut	fair enough
18:14	rpglover64	brehaut: enough that I think about whether to use the Applicative interface to Parsec instead of the Monadic one
18:14	brehaut	rpglover64: do you use Category with it?
18:14	brehaut	(it being applicative)
18:15	rpglover64	brehaut: I haven't jumped into regularly using Category or Arrow yet
18:15	rpglover64	so no
18:16	brehaut	rpglover64: i think with category and applicative you can avoid most uses for arrow
18:16	brehaut	clojurebot: arrows
18:16	clojurebot	arrows is http://ro-che.info/ccc/12.html
18:16	brehaut	gold
18:16	rpglover64	Aren't Arrows isomorphic to Applicative Categories?
18:16	brehaut	indeed
18:16	rpglover64	I remember reading something about that and not understanding it
18:17	brehaut	anyways, what do you want to know about clj from hs?
18:18	rpglover64	nothing in particular, unless there's a nice tutorial or introduction to it aimed at haskellers
18:18	rpglover64	it's just that your name was mentioned, and I saw it in scrollback and happend to be around
18:19	brehaut	i doubt it; clojure is largely straight forward. fnparse is approximately equivalent to parsec (although the combinators are different) you dont need monads for most things (for and doseq are list comprehensions) -?> and -?>> provide a good chunk of what you might use maybe for
18:20	brehaut	and point free is uncommon (because it gets lumpy fast)
18:20	rpglover64	gathered as much
18:21	rpglover64	although the -> and ->> macros are nice sometimes
18:21	brehaut	definately, but they arent point free
18:22	rpglover64	they're kinda similar
18:22	brehaut	yeah they perform similar purposes
18:22	brehaut	but its form rewriting rather than first class functions
18:23	rpglover64	right
18:23	rpglover64	but if I don't have a nice type system, I don't _want_ to be passing around and composing lots of first class functions
18:24	brehaut	news to me ;)
18:24	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:24	AWizzArd	rpglover64: like the guys in Haskell I guess
18:25	rpglover64	also, I've realized that the weirdest thing for me to get used to is the lack of currying
18:26	brehaut	you do still have partial and the #(…) reader macro available;
18:27	brehaut	its maybe not as elegant as currying, but it does the job well enough, and #() is particularly useful because it allows you to work with methods as well as functions
18:29	amalloy	brehaut: poor memfn. everyone uses #(...) isntead
18:38	amalloy	&(map (memfn length) ["test" "some strings"])
18:38	sexpbot	⟹ (4 12)
18:39	gfrlog`	#(.length %) is shorter
18:39	gfrlog`	and has three more punctuation marks
18:40	amalloy	sure, i usually use # too. but for one thing you can nest memfn inside of #() forms
18:40	brehaut	gfrlog`: potentially for a method with a really long signature memfn might become clearer because you name the arguments
18:40	tomoj	annotations in my deftype don't work when I use a macro to create it: https://gist.github.com/1052434 ideas?
18:41	tomoj	must be dropping the metadata somewhere somehow
18:42	amalloy	tomoj: fwiw, that comment form doesn't "work":
18:42	amalloy	&(comment works:)
18:42	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Invalid token: works:
18:43	gfrlog`	there's one thing that a with-dyslexia macro can't help you with
18:43	tomoj	also unreadable forms
18:43	tomoj	had them ;;'d out but wanted syntax highlighting
18:45	tomoj	(defmacro deffoo [name] `(deftype ~(with-meta name {Foo true}) []))
18:45	tomoj	shouldn't (deffoo Bar) define a Bar class with the Foo annotation?
18:46	amalloy	tomoj: i think so. emitting metadata from macros always seems to have some traps for me
18:47	tomoj	(->> '(deffoo Bar) macroexpand-1 second meta) is as expected but no annotations...
19:40	gfrlog`	if I want to thread a map through a series of reduces, I need a threading macro that makes something the second argument :(
19:44	amalloy	or a reduce that wants the initial element first
19:46	gfrlog`	I'll bet you half a pence that exactly one of the two is in amalloy-utils
19:46	amalloy	hah, no
19:46	gfrlog`	you won't bet because I'm right!
19:47	amalloy	actually i accept your bet and tell you you're wrong
19:47	gfrlog`	aw dang
19:48	gfrlog`	(defn preduce ...)
19:55	coopernurse	how can I tell what version of swank and clojure I'm running from a repl
19:55	coopernurse	after running: clojure-jack-in
19:55	coopernurse	I assume the clojure version is based on the project.clj?
19:55	hiredman	,(clojure-version)
19:55	clojurebot	"1.2.0"
19:55	coopernurse	hiredman: thank you
19:58	coopernurse	yes, there's something odd going on with the swank/slime repl
19:58	coopernurse	with this line
19:58	coopernurse	(clojure.xml/parse "http://search.twitter.com/search.atom?&q=clojure")
19:58	coopernurse	if I run: java -jar clojure.jar
19:58	coopernurse	and paste that in
19:58	coopernurse	it works fine
19:58	coopernurse	from the standard clojure REPL
19:59	coopernurse	but over swank I get dropped into a debugger
20:01	coopernurse	https://gist.github.com/1052546
20:02	coopernurse	"Unable to resolve symbol: q in this context" seems relevant
20:13	pcavs	Does anyone know (1) How Kawa Implements TCO (2) Why Clojure does something else (3) What that something else is?
20:13	technomancy	kawa is an interpreter, innit?
20:13	technomancy	or is that just sisc?
20:14	DerGuteMoritz	pcavs: Kawa only has optional TCO and it's very expensive AFAIR
20:14	pcavs	Oh, I thought Kawa was a full Scheme implementation
20:14	pcavs	DerGuteMoritz: Interesting...
20:14	DerGuteMoritz	if you enable it, yes :-)
20:14	DerGuteMoritz	technomancy: Kawa compiles to bytecode actually
20:15	DerGuteMoritz	well, it also has an interpreter of course
20:15	technomancy	ok, it just sacrifices by not compiling every function call to a method invocation
20:16	scgilardi	http://www.rhinocerus.net/forum/lang-scheme/559925-recommendations-kawa-sisc.html
20:17	DerGuteMoritz	ah, Per Bothner replies in that thread, he is the creator of Kawa
20:18	DerGuteMoritz	I have used Kawa for an Android app and have quite liked it
20:19	pcavs	Thanks DerGuteMoritz
20:19	DerGuteMoritz	you're welcome
22:03	symbole	What is the meaning of #^"[B"? Does that indicate that whatever follows is a byte array?
22:10	dnolen	,(type (byte-array []))
22:10	clojurebot	[B
22:10	dnolen	symbole: yes it's a primitive byte array type hint
22:11	dnolen	symbole: old type hint syntax tho. ^ preferred over #^ these days.
22:12	symbole	Ah, thanks.
22:14	gfrlog`	if I call (first (filter ...)) on a non-chunked seq, it shouldn't ever process more than necessary should it?
22:14	gfrlog`	like...exactly 32 more than necessary? :(
22:29	dnolen	gfrlog`: filter does the chunking.
22:30	gfrlog`	dnolen: man. that sounds like valuable information.
22:30	gfrlog`	wouldn't you want that kind of thing in the docs?
22:30	dnolen	gfrlog`: actually it's not filter so much as seq.
22:31	dnolen	,(type (seq [1]))
22:31	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
22:31	gfrlog`	oh maybe it's cause I call (chunked-seq?) without calling seq
22:31	gfrlog`	so I was wrong about it not being chunked
22:31	dnolen	,(type (seq {1 2}))
22:31	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap$Seq
22:31	gfrlog`	ah yes
22:32	gfrlog`	,(chunked-seq? (seq (shuffle (range 1000))))
22:32	clojurebot	true
22:32	gfrlog`	that threw me off because it returned false w/o (seq)
22:32	Scriptor	,(type (range 10000))
22:32	clojurebot	clojure.lang.LazySeq
22:32	dnolen	,(type (seq (range 10)))
22:32	clojurebot	clojure.lang.ChunkedCons
22:33	dnolen	gfrlog`: in anycase, if you want to prevent chunking you need to wrap the seqable thing in something which ensures one at a time, which is easy to do.
22:33	gfrlog`	I used a manual (loop)
23:13	technomancy	any DDs in the house?
23:14	amalloy	technomancy: you need a ride home?
23:14	technomancy	hehe
23:14	technomancy	Debian Developers
23:16	pcavs	technomancy: nobody's taking the bait...
23:18	technomancy	pcavs: well you never know, Debian has a reputation for moving very slowly.
23:18	technomancy	zing!~
23:31	kencausey	technomancy: What do you mean by Developer in this sense? I use Debian and develop software on the platform, I have not packaged anything for Debian though.
23:32	kencausey	s/sense/instance/
23:32	sexpbot	<kencausey> technomancy: What do you mean by Developer in this instance? I use Debian and develop software on the platform, I have not packaged anything for Debian though.
23:32	technomancy	kencausey: right... Debian Developer is a pretty specific term for people who have upload privileges
23:32	technomancy	thanks though =)
23:33	technomancy	it looks like clojure is up to date in sid, but contrib is still on 1.1.0
23:33	kencausey	yes, not me, sorry
23:35	technomancy	apparently to create a legit lein .deb I have to first package clucy, lancet, and hooke.
23:35	technomancy	...without the help of leiningen itself
23:36	technomancy	curse you, self-hosting!
23:40	technomancy	whooo-wee! apt-get install maven2 pulls in not one, not two, but _three_ languages.
23:40	amalloy	technomancy: a lein deb would be pretty great though
23:41	ibdknox	you can never have too many languages ;)
23:41	technomancy	amalloy: there will definitely be a deb. the question is whether it will be a compliant one or not.
23:41	technomancy	the uberjar-in-a-deb approach is easy peasy
23:42	technomancy	complying with every jot and tittle of the hallowed Debian Policy is daunting
23:45	technomancy	ibdknox: unless one of them is groovy
23:45	ibdknox	hahaha
23:45	ibdknox	seriously? It bring down groovy for Maven2?
23:45	technomancy	if I released a lein deb that depended on groovy I would probably die of embarrassment
23:45	ibdknox	If you weren't shot first ;)
23:46	ibdknox	lol
23:46	technomancy	it looks like there's no way around Recommend'ing gcj though =(
23:46	amalloy	!
23:46	hiredman	^- also an embarrassment
23:47	amalloy	technomancy: that sounds worse to me than groovy
23:47	technomancy	amalloy: for portability; apparently ant is too slow to be usable on non-i386 architectures using hotspot?
23:47	technomancy	and you can't have arch-specific Recommends fields
23:47	technomancy	though users can disable the auto-installation of Recommend'ed packages
23:47	amalloy	technomancy: gcj barely works at all. last i checked it didn't support all of jdk4, let alone 5 or 6
23:48	technomancy	yeah but think of the sparc users. or something.
23:51	hiredman	I think it is safe to presume that sparc users are a hardy bunch that need no hand holding
23:52	technomancy	hiredman: you should suggest this to the debian maintainers, I'm sure a lively discussion could be had.
23:52	technomancy	"lively"
23:52	hiredman	continued use of sparc seems to point to a particular streak of hard headedness
23:53	technomancy	whoa; m86k is still supported as well
23:56	cemerick	;-)
23:57	technomancy	cemerick: just looking to pick a fight =)
23:58	technomancy	"no, I will _not_ put copyright boilerplate at the top of every source file. I prefer to use that 30% of my screen space for things that are relevant, like the code."
23:58	cemerick	technomancy: if it's with the .deb folks, I'm behind you :-)
23:58	technomancy	luckily that is only strongly recommended, not required.