#clojure – 2011-06-27

2011-06-27

00:30	davekong	I have a function that is working fine in the REPL, but if the pcall version of it is called from a java class, it hangs after printing the result. Also, from java, whether calling the parallel version or not, it gives grossly inacurrate results, despite all of the number manipulation being done in clojure (the function is just passed arrays of strings). Any hints on how to fix these issues? Should I
00:30	davekong	paste my code?
00:34	amalloy	davekong: ##(doc shutdown-agents)
00:34	sexpbot	⟹ "([]); Initiates a shutdown of the thread pools that back the agent system. Running actions will complete, but no new actions will be accepted"
00:35	amalloy	probably why it's "hanging". no ideas about the other thing
00:43	davekong	amalloy: thanks that seems to have fixed the first issue
00:45	amalloy	don't do that unless you want to shut down the system, though
00:45	davekong	oh
00:47	davekong	well I don't want to until much later except now while I am testing
00:48	davekong	I am doing some calculations in clojure but the main program is on java
00:50	davekong	Or you just mean shut down all the agents?
00:54	davekong	seems like half the time I get a bad result and half the time it is good
00:56	davekong	and it has been regular for several runs good, bad, good, bad
01:00	symbole	Why does (defn foo [&{:keys...}] work? Isn't everything after & collected into a list, and you can't destructure a list using {:keys...}?
01:06	davekong	Would java be less safe with memory or something like that and maybe memory is getting corrupted?
03:00	amalloy	~source destructure
03:00	amalloy	symbole: it works because the above makes it work
03:00	amalloy	(i haven't looked actually, but where else can the logic be)
03:17	amalloy	for the curious, it looks like line 3434 there says, "if you destructure a seq into a map, apply hash-map on it first"
03:20	amalloy	&(let [{:keys [test]} '(:test 1)] test)
03:20	sexpbot	⟹ 1
05:48	rfgpfeiffer	clojurebot: seen drcode
05:48	clojurebot	Pardon?
05:49	rfgpfeiffer	~seen drcode
05:49	clojurebot	Excuse me?
07:32	tomoj	how does this make sense? https://gist.github.com/d24bf93fb851b9835305
07:32	tomoj	I realize it's silly to create a bunch of new Randoms
07:33	tomoj	but still, shouldn't I sometimes see more positive than negative?
07:33	tomoj	every time I look for positives I get less positives than negatives
07:33	tomoj	less positives than nonpositives I should say
07:34	tomoj	every time I look for negatives I get fewer negatives than nonnegatives
07:34	tomoj	yet every time I look for zeros I get zero...
07:37	tomoj	if I instead use just one Random, the results make sense
07:37	tomoj	hah
07:55	tomoj	(repeateadly #(.nextLong (java.util.Random.))) is a strange thing
07:56	tomoj	s/ead/ed/
07:57	raek	tomoj: I think that when a Random is instantiated the random seed is initialized with the current time
07:57	raek	tomoj: so if you instantiate a lot of them in the same millisecond/microsecond, the will give the same values
07:57	raek	*they will
07:59	tomoj	strange thing is, I can't ever see any dups
08:01	tomoj	but since the behavior depends on how you consume the seq...
08:03	raek	,(java.util.Random.)
08:03	clojurebot	#<Random java.util.Random@1746634>
08:03	tomoj	I think there's just some weird dependency where if you take longer to consume positive values, and so delay generation of Randoms a bit more for positive values than negative values, fewer positive values are produced in general
08:03	tomoj	s/in general//
08:04	raek	,(let [f #(.nextInt (java.util.Random.))] (loop [l (), n 10] (if (zero? n) l (recur (cons (f) l) (dec n)))))
08:04	clojurebot	(1135657559 -1653233976 1129285394 1624057155 -285451636 110824407 -1401623519 -906851758 1078467891 -246900125)
08:06	raek	,(map #(.nextInt %) (loop [l (), n 10] (if (zero? n) (recur (cons (java.util.Random) l) (dec n)))))
08:06	clojurebot	()
08:06	raek	,(map #(.nextInt %) (loop [l (), n 10] (if (zero? n) l (recur (cons (java.util.Random) l) (dec n)))))
08:06	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Class cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
08:06	raek	,(map #(.nextInt %) (loop [l (), n 10] (if (zero? n) l (recur (cons (java.util.Random.) l) (dec n)))))
08:06	clojurebot	(1079184460 -905735116 -412502350 -735306677 -337491639 2058739835 1328101674 1724377717 608990656 386974692)
08:07	raek	ok, I can't seem to construct a example of what I'm thinking about... :-)
08:08	rpglover64	interop question
08:10	rpglover64	I (by which I mean my friend's students) have been given a jar, with the assignment that they should write program logic conforming to the api provided by the jar in java; I'd like to try to do this in clojure.
08:10	rpglover64	suggestions on how to start?
08:18	gfrlog	rpglover64: can you be more specific? like, are you already familiar with clojure's interop features, or do you need help with those?
08:19	gfrlog	(e.g., have you already read http://clojure.org/java_interop ?)
08:20	rpglover64	no, I'm not
08:20	rpglover64	in fact, I'm not familiar with java classloaders
08:20	rpglover64	I have read that
08:21	rpglover64	and my tripup right now seems to be getting access to the java api from within clojure
08:21	gfrlog	rpglover64: do you have the jar on the classpath? have you tried importing the relevant classes?
08:22	rpglover64	ah, the answer is simple. I'm an idiot who tries importing packages as if they were classes
08:22	gfrlog	:)
08:22	rpglover64	thank you
08:23	gfrlog	np
08:52	gfrlog	I wish (for) had an implicit do :(
08:53	rpglover64	can't you write a macro for that?
08:53	rpglover64	(I know I can't, but shouldn't it not be too difficult?)
09:00	terom	gfrlog`: what do you mean? doseq has similar bindings as for
09:00	gfrlog`	terom: does it return a seq?
09:00	gfrlog`	,(doseq [x (range 5)] (inc x))
09:01	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
09:01	gfrlog`	??
09:01	gfrlog`	is it too early for writing code?
09:01	gfrlog`	my repl says it returns nil
09:01	gfrlog`	so doseq would not be a good substitute
09:01	terom	Maybe... doseq returns nil, it's for side effects.
09:02	gfrlog`	terom: right. I want to use for primarily, but adding debugging statements is a pain
09:02	gfrlog`	I cannot say (for [x (range 10)] (prn x) (inc x))
09:04	terom	Well.. you could say (do (prn x) (inc x)), but the results can be a bit suprising.
09:04	gfrlog`	terom: that's what I do. I know that for is lazy.
09:04	gfrlog`	When my lazy seq crashes in some completely other part of the code because of something in the body of the for, adding the (prn) there can usually help
09:09	rpglover64	looks like you've run into a problem common in haskell
09:31	tomoj	&(= (Long/toBinaryString -9223372036854775808) (Long/toBinaryString 27670116110564327424))
09:31	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EvalReader not allowed when read-eval is false.
09:32	tomoj	oh, unsigned..
09:32	tomoj	wait..
09:33	tomoj	,(long 27670116110564327424)
09:33	clojurebot	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
09:34	gfrlog`	tomoj: I've noticed the bots don't like reading big numbers
09:34	gfrlog`	,2823589289358923847289348923523423423
09:34	clojurebot	2823589289358923847289348923523423423
09:34	gfrlog`	okay nm I don't know what I'm talking about
09:35	gfrlog`	,(first (range 8923895829348929835982389498234923))
09:35	clojurebot	java.lang.ExceptionInInitializerError
09:44	mattmitchell	anyone know of a good validation lib? I want to do things like, make sure input is of a certain type, provide defaults, provide useful error messages etc.. This will be used in a library full of search finder functions
09:52	jcromartie	-> and update-in are just about the best things ever
09:52	jcromartie	next to Nutella
09:56	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: I know clojure provides function preconditions built in
09:56	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: but that's probably not as extensive as what you want
09:58	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: yeah I want to play with the preconditions a bit. The simpler the better for sure.
10:00	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: the defaults you could probably handle with a macro pretty simply
10:01	gfrlog`	I think clojure.core had a private method that it used for declaring constraints for inputs and reporting errors
10:01	wastrel	hi i stopped learning clojure because of busy
10:02	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: interesting, that'd be a good thing to have
10:02	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: could you show me an example of using a macro for defaults?
10:02	gfrlog`	sure, one sec
10:02	gfrlog`	the clojure.core macro is here: https://github.com/richhickey/clojure/blob/master/src/clj/clojure/core.clj#L1383
10:03	gfrlog`	I can't guarantee that one's a good idea though; some of the code in core is primitive
10:04	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: what kind of default behavior do you want? do you just want nil args to be converted to something else, or do you want the function to be able to accept any number of args?
10:06	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: well for example, if I have a param called :sort, I want to make sure it is an array, and contains valid sort fields: [:score.dec :price.asc]. If the values aren't valid, then fallback to a default like [:score.desc]. But it'd be great to throw an exception if needed too.
10:09	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: so for each arg you want to define what valid means and you want to provide an alternative for invalid inputs?
10:09	gfrlog`	or you want to throw an exception? :/
10:10	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: yes, the former. The exception stuff isn't as important, thanks :)
10:15	edw	I'm consistently getting a "No value supplied for key: <PORTNUM>" exception when using M-x clojure-jack-in. Anyone else run into this? This is new to me; I've been using jack-in for a while now.
10:16	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: try this and tell me how it breaks :) https://gist.github.com/1048931
10:17	edw	Hmm, seems related to incanter-1.2.3... Hmm.
10:19	pyr	whenever timers are brought up
10:19	pyr	concurrency issues are mentionned
10:20	raek	edw: iirc, incanter has an old version of swank-clojure as a dev-dep
10:25	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: thanks!
10:25	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: will check it now
10:25	gfrlog`	yepps
10:31	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: OK running your example I get "Can't let qualified name: user/arg-nam"
10:31	mattmitchell	sorry, that last part was "arg-name"
10:31	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: that sounds plausible. Kay I'll put it in my repl and beat out the problems :)
10:31	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: cool thanks!
10:32	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: you see what it's trying to do though right?
10:32	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: yes i think i understand the idea there and how it works. I'm not real experienced with macros though, so the quoting throws me off a bit
10:32	gfrlog`	yeah it's a bit weird
10:35	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: okay, I updated it. Seems to work now.
10:35	mattmitchell	awesome i'll check it
10:36	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: using macroexpand probably makes it more explicit what it's doing
10:36	mattmitchell	gfrlog`: good idea
10:37	gfrlog`	mattmitchell: maybe renaming it let-defaults would make more sense :/ dunno
10:37	gfrlog`	or....whatever you want
10:37	mattmitchell	ok sure yeah. i'm going to play around with this. thanks for taking the time to write this up :)
10:38	gfrlog`	no problem
10:55	mattmitchell	is there a predicate for testing if something is an array-like type?
10:56	mattmitchell	Or is it just (or (vector? x) (list? x) ?
10:57	pcavs_	mattmitchell: (seq? my-list) I believe
10:57	mattmitchell	that's what i thought too, but then:
10:57	terom	seq? returns false for vectors
10:58	mattmitchell	,(seq? [1])
10:58	clojurebot	false
10:58	mattmitchell	yeah
10:58	pcavs_	well it depends what you're testing
10:58	pcavs_	,(seq? (list 1 2 3))
10:58	clojurebot	true
10:58	pcavs_	is because it implements (head my-list) and (rest my-list)
10:58	pcavs_	,(head (list 1 2 3))
10:58	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: head in this context
10:59	pcavs_	doh
10:59	terom	first
10:59	pcavs_	w/e it's called in clojure
10:59	pcavs_	there we go
10:59	pcavs_	,(first (list 1 2 3))
10:59	clojurebot	1
10:59	pcavs_	,(rest (list 1 2 3))
10:59	clojurebot	(2 3)
10:59	pcavs_	,(type [1])
10:59	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector
11:00	mattmitchell	,(first [1])
11:00	clojurebot	1
11:00	mattmitchell	,(rest [1 2 3])
11:00	clojurebot	(2 3)
11:00	pcavs_	mattmitchell: now I'm confused myself... =\
11:01	mattmitchell	ok :). yeah I was totally expecting seq? to return true for vectors
11:01	terom	first and rest probably call seq on the vector
11:03	bsteuber	what you want is sequential?
11:03	bsteuber	,(sequential? [1 2 3])
11:03	clojurebot	true
11:04	bsteuber	,(sequential? (list 1 2 3))
11:04	clojurebot	true
11:04	bsteuber	,(sequential? {:a 4})
11:04	clojurebot	false
11:07	rfgpfeiffer	,(doc sequential?)
11:07	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements Sequential"
11:08	mattmitchell	,(sequential? "test")
11:08	clojurebot	false
11:08	mattmitchell	good
11:10	rfgpfeiffer	,(seqable? ())
11:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: seqable? in this context
11:10	raek	re. seq vs seqable, I recommend this post: http://kotka.de/blog/2011/06/On_types.html
11:10	pcavs_	raek: thanks
11:11	bsteuber	,(clojure.contrib.core/seqble? "foo")
11:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.contrib.core
11:12	raek	when the ISeq is eventually protocolized, checking for "seqable" would be more intuitive
11:12	rfgpfeiffer	is there a way to refer to array types in multimethod signatures?
11:13	raek	rfgpfeiffer: what do you mean by "multimethod signatures"? dispatch value? type hints?
11:13	bsteuber	rfgpfeiffer: clojure.lang.Sequential
11:13	rfgpfeiffer	dispatch value
11:14	rfgpfeiffer	I can write (def bytes (type (byte-array 0)))
11:14	rfgpfeiffer	and use that as a dispatch value
11:14	raek	I think the easiest way is to create an instance of an array with the correct type and then store the (class the-array) in a var
11:15	raek	I've seen this in clojure core code, I think
11:15	rfgpfeiffer	,(type (byte-array 0))
11:15	clojurebot	[B
11:16	raek	,(resolve '[B)
11:16	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
11:16	raek	,(resolve (symbol "[B"))
11:16	clojurebot	[B
11:16	raek	,(Class/forName "[B")
11:16	clojurebot	[B
11:16	raek	,(Class/forName "[Invalid")
11:16	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: [Invalid
11:17	raek	hrm, this might work too
11:17	rfgpfeiffer	,(= (Class/forName "[B") (type (byte-array 0)))
11:17	clojurebot	true
11:17	rfgpfeiffer	interesting
11:19	raek	mattmitchell: for macros, one idea is to define cases for seq? (lists), vector?, map?, set?, and everything else.
11:20	raek	if you want to define new meaning for clojure source code data structures
11:26	sritchie	hey all -- is there some way to get metadata at read-time, for a function passed in to another function as an argument?
11:27	sritchie	(defn get-meta [x] (retrieve-meta x))
11:27	sritchie	which would just be retrieve-meta, of course
11:28	sritchie	oh, actually, better question -- can function values hold metadata?
11:28	pdk	the return values or the functions themselves
11:29	pdk	also (meta x) returns a map with the metadata of x
11:29	sritchie	the functions themselves
11:29	gfrlog`	,(vector (meta cons) (meta (var cons)))
11:29	clojurebot	[{:line 28} {:ns #<Namespace clojure.core>, :name cons, :file "clojure/core.clj", :line 22, :arglists ([x seq]), :doc "Returns a new seq where x is the first element and seq is\n the rest.", :added "1.0"}]
11:29	pdk	functions can carry metadata
11:30	sritchie	pdk: cool, that's perfect
11:30	sritchie	thanks
11:30	gfrlog`	I'm curious why one is :line 28 and the other is :line 22
11:30	gfrlog`	the function seems to be about six lines long...
11:31	rpglover64	how is proxy expected to be used (there seems to be a dearth of examples); I'm slightly confused as to what would be the equivalent of (in java) writing a class which implements an interface.
11:32	gfrlog`	rpglover64: I think you can implement java interfaces with defrecord
11:36	raek	rpglover64: a typical usage is to interface with swing, e.g. you might need to implement ActionListener
11:37	raek	http://www.dreamincode.net/code/snippet3252.htm
11:37	raek	(example by Raynes)
11:38	rpglover64	ah; illuminating
13:10	derp__	I want to try and make a simple project using lein, but I don't really know where to go after creating my main function in core.clj
13:10	derp__	would anyone recommend a small example project using lein for me to look at?
13:10	technomancy	clojurebot: google mire
13:10	clojurebot	First, out of 4660000 results is:
13:10	clojurebot	Mire \| Define Mire at Dictionary.com
13:10	clojurebot	http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/mire
13:10	technomancy	oops
13:10	technomancy	clojurebot: google mire clojure
13:10	clojurebot	First, out of 103 results is:
13:10	clojurebot	in which slime and mire and other sludges come into play - Technomancy
13:10	clojurebot	http://technomancy.us/122
13:12	technomancy	derp__: lame link, but whatever; what I meant to say is that I built mire as a sample type app
13:12	derp__	technomancy: thank you, this looks like a great place to start
13:12	wastrel	is clojurebot yours ?
13:12	wastrel	technomancy: ^^
13:13	technomancy	wastrel: I convinced hiredman to implement it.
13:14	gfrlog`	clojurebot belongs to whoever feeds him the most
13:15	wastrel	botsnack?
13:15	wastrel	!botsnack
13:15	gfrlog`	~botsnack
13:15	gfrlog`	clojurebot does not belong to me
13:15	raek	clojurebot: have some botsnack
13:15	ejackson	$botsnack
13:15	sexpbot	ejackson: Thanks! Om nom nom!!
13:15	justinlilly	,botsnack
13:15	ejackson	haha !
13:16	gfrlog`	,(prn "botsnack")
13:17	pjstadig`	~ping
13:17	manutter	clojurebot: say something foreign...
13:17	gfrlog`	this is what happens when you forget to love your bot
13:17	manutter	sigh, he died
13:18	gfrlog`	manutter: is that the one phrase that he will absolutely always respond to unless he is completely dead?
13:18	hiredman	I suspended the screen it runs it
13:19	manutter	gfrlog`: I dunno, whenever I try to have a conversation clojurebot always says somthing foreign to me
13:19	gfrlog`	oh right
13:20	derp__	I'm trying to start using slime/swank, but for some reason this tutorial isn't helping me: http://data-sorcery.org/2009/12/20/getting-started/
13:20	derp__	specifically launching "lein swank" in the mire directory isn't working, I get "That's not a task. Use "lein help" to list all tasks."
13:20	manutter	clojurebot: welcome back.
13:20	technomancy	aquamacs? =\
13:20	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
13:20	derp__	nope
13:21	derp__	emacs23 on 11.04
13:21	gfrlog`	~botsnack
13:21	clojurebot	Thanks! Can I have chocolate next time
13:21	technomancy	derp__: https://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure#readme
13:21	raek	derp__: try "lein plugin install swank-clojure 1.3.1"
13:25	derp__	okay, I tried that command and lein swank, but I got this error: https://gist.github.com/1049322
13:25	technomancy	derp__: see "known issues" in the readme
13:27	derp__	technomancy: okay, I removed the swank requirement in mire, but now I get this error
13:27	derp__	https://gist.github.com/1049325
13:27	derp__	woops
13:30	derp__	technomancy: I assume you were referring to the :dev dependencies bug, just to be clear
13:30	technomancy	right
13:31	derp__	but this new error, is that related to my own mistake or an actual bug?
13:33	technomancy	your last gist is also caused by having more than one copy of swank installed
13:35	derp__	uh, I guess I had it through elpa (totally forgot about that). when I do M-x package-list-packages, what is the command to delete/remove a highlighted package?
13:36	technomancy	not sure; rm -rf ~/.emacs.d/elpa/foo works for me
13:37	technomancy	but that problem is caused by the swank-clojure lein plugin, not the swank-clojure elisp package
13:37	derp__	that okay to do? emacs isn't going to throw a fit about a package being removed unceremoniously or whatever?
13:38	technomancy	you should definitely get rid of the swank-clojure elisp package
13:38	technomancy	it's been deprecated for over a year
13:39	technomancy	if I could delete it off elpa I would
13:52	derp__	now I am getting "symbols value as variable is void: slime-clj"
13:52	derp__	but lein swank works, so I'm halfway there
13:53	technomancy	never heard of that one before
13:56	derp__	I have clojure-mode (1.9.1), slime (20100404.1), slime-clj (0.1.6), slime-fuzzy (20100404), slime-repl (20100404) installed
13:56	technomancy	I have never heard of slime-clj before
13:57	hiredman	looks like it comes from swank-clj
13:59	hugod	slime-clj is from swank-clj
14:00	derp__	ooh, now I think I got it almost working
14:00	derp__	it says Host: 127.0.0.1
14:00	derp__	but the mode-bar thingy hasn't changed
14:01	derp__	now it just has (Lisp Interaction ElDoc Paredit AC yas Fill)
14:02	raek	derp__: note that swank-clojure and swank-clj are different projects
14:03	davekong	If I have a function that takes an argument of type {[""] <double>} what would be the type I would pass from java to call it?
14:03	hugod	I think I should rename swank-clj to something completely different…
14:03	raek	clojure-mode, slime and slime-repl are the elisp packages you would use with swank-clojure
14:04	raek	derp__: http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Getting+Started+with+Emacs
14:05	amalloy	davekong: huh? what type is that?
14:05	amalloy	a map from vector of string to double?
14:07	amalloy	just pass it an IPersistentMap, or a j.u.Map if your java code is lazy
14:08	davekong	amalloy: yea
14:23	mattmitchell	is it possible to do nested destructuring for function args?
14:25	raek	mattmitchell: yes
14:26	raek	each parameter can be destructured with the usual rules
14:27	raek	but the whole "paramter vector" is not a destructuring form, so you can't do something like (defn foo [a b c :as all] ...)
14:27	amalloy	&((fn [{[x] :values}] x) {:values [1 2 3 4]}) ;; mattmitchell
14:27	sexpbot	⟹ 1
14:27	fmw`	I'm trying to add a test to https://github.com/clojure/tools.logging, but it doesn't seem to be run when I execute mvm install or mvn test. I can't find where the test functions are called either. any suggestions?
14:28	mattmitchell	ok thanks. I'll play around with that for a bit
14:42	wastrel	do you use emacs GUI or cli?
14:44	sritchie	gui
14:47	amalloy	even the cli is pretty gooey
14:48	gfrlog`	:-\|
14:52	sritchie	on OS X, I like using command as the meta key
14:52	sritchie	and terminal likes escape
14:52	sritchie	(though this sounds like a fixable issue :))
14:59	hugod	fmw`: you could try mvn clojure:test if it is using the clojure-maven-plugin
15:53	rando	I'm building a project using leiningen and I'm trying to add the S3 wagon following the steps here: http://blog.anzix.net/2010/12/07/using-amazon-s3-as-a-maven-repository/ How can I add the extension to my pom.xml without lein clobbering it?
16:13	symbole	rando: You might be able to include that in your settings files.
16:14	rando	symbole: Yeah, i was trying that, but there's no place to put build/extensions in settings.xml that it won't yell at me
16:16	symbole	rando: It probably goes inside a profile.
16:17	rando	symbole: any idea where? http://maven.apache.org/ref/2.2.1/maven-settings/settings.html#class_profile
16:18	symbole	rando: http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-building-for-different-environments.html
16:18	rando	oh, look at that
16:20	rando	symbole: nope, still yells: Caused by: org.codehaus.plexus.util.xml.pull.XmlPullParserException: Unrecognised tag: 'build'
16:21	rando	thats annoying that the docs say its possible
16:21	derp__	so in emacs, what's the key combo to go to a function definition?
16:21	amalloy	M-.
16:21	amalloy	in slime, anyway
16:22	rando	symbole: yeah, that example is for the pom.xml
16:23	derp__	okay when I type M-. I get "Find tag (default server)" and I have slime/swank talking to each other I think
16:23	derp__	but I don't know where this tag file is or how to generate it
16:24	amalloy	then slime and swank aren't talking to each other
16:24	amalloy	if slime is going in the current buffer then M-. doesn't try to do tags stuff
16:26	scgilardi	for OS X, I use https://github.com/aim-stuff/cmd-key-happy as part of a setup to allow my cmd key to act as a meta key with terminal-based emacs.
16:26	derp__	okay, now it's working
16:26	derp__	so how do I do the opposite of M-. and go backwards?
16:27	scgilardi	M-, (or meta *)
16:33	derp__	when would one use defn-?
16:35	amalloy	mad cow disease. (an overstatement, but generally don't use it)
16:35	dnolen	derp__: I see it as a way to control which definitions get imported w/ use. Better I think to lift private stuff into a separate ns I think.
16:36	Somelauw	defn is private so that it won't conflict with methods of other modules and namespaces
16:36	Somelauw	and reduces complexity
16:36	symbole	rando: Maybe this will help http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-wagon-providers.html
16:37	Somelauw	I think
16:43	rando	symbole: I'll give it a shot
17:21	sjl	Ugh, this "no unsigned bytes datatype" is really annoying.
17:28	derp__	what does the # sign do?
17:28	amalloy	like a hundred things
17:28	derp__	I tried (doc #) but got a weird error from slime
17:28	derp__	well what's it called?
17:28	derp__	if I want to google it
17:29	sritchie	the dispatch macro
17:29	amalloy	derp__: it's a "reader macro": based on the next character in the file, it reads forms specially
17:29	sritchie	search for that here: http://clojure.org/readera
17:29	sritchie	http://clojure.org/reader
17:29	amalloy	eg, {a b} is a map, but #{a b} is a set
17:31	derp__	okay, thank you
17:35	Cozey	hello. what's the best way to return json under compojure?
17:36	Cozey	middleware or overriding render ?
17:36	Cozey	or .. ?
17:38	amalloy	uhhhh?
17:39	amalloy	just return a string, possibly by using a middleware that converts your map to json, and add a middleware that adds a content-type header
17:39	sjl	What's the best way to say: "split this byte into (int top-four-bits) and (int bottom-four-bits)"? I must be missing something simple...
17:41	sritchie	(juxt #(bit-and % 0x1100) #(bit-and % 0x0011) )
17:42	sritchie	sorry, missing some two ones and zeros from each
17:42	sritchie	s/some//
17:42	sexpbot	<sritchie> sorry, missing two ones and zeros from each
17:42	sjl	hmm
17:43	sritchie	don't trust that guess, actually, I think something's wrong there
17:43	amalloy	sritchie: the problem that hex isn't binary, i think :P
17:44	amalloy	&(let [b 137] (map #(bit-and b %) [0xf0 0x0f]))
17:44	sexpbot	⟹ (128 9)
17:45	sritchie	amalloy: haha, yes, there we go
17:45	sjl	sritchie: the tricky part is that (byte 137) doesn't work :\
17:45	amalloy	&((juxt quot rem) 137 0x10)
17:45	sexpbot	⟹ [8 9]
17:46	sritchie	sjl: amalloy's got you covered -- bit-masking the number will wipe out the first two and last two bits, giving you back the ints you wanted
17:46	amalloy	sritchie: only if he has an int, though - it won't work with a byte
17:47	sritchie	true. back to observation mode for me :)
17:48	sjl	Grrrr (.toString (BigInteger. (byte-array [(byte -122)])) 2) -> "-1111010"
17:48	amalloy	sjl: working with unsigned numbers in java is terrible, yes
17:48	sjl	Is there a "just show me the damn bits you're using to represent this" function somewhere?
17:49	amalloy	&(.toString (BigInteger. (byte-array [(byte 0) (byte -122)])) 2)
17:49	sexpbot	⟹ "10000110"
17:49	amalloy	sjl: not really. a number of libraries have implemented it
17:49	sjl	Hmm, ok, that's a start. Thanks
17:50	sjl	Stupid Minecraft protocol and its using nibbles for data.
17:50	amalloy	chuckle
17:50	justinlilly	wait what? They have a protocol which uses the nibbles game?
17:51	justinlilly	seems really interesting to transport information as 100x100 grids of a nibbles game in progress :)
17:53	fmw`	hugod: Sorry, got interrupted by a long skype conversation with the girlfriend. I've added a test function, but it doesn't seem to be run, however the other 21 functions are run, so the tests themselves are running fine
17:57	fmw`	hugod: but it seems the test is within a comment function, so the current tests aren't all being run either
17:57	fmw`	hugod: so sorry for bothering you ;)
18:01	hugod	fmw`: no bother :) mvn test should work too, looking at the parent pom
18:29	DerGuteMoritz	hello everyone, I am trying to install http://search.maven.org/#artifactdetails%7Cjavax.ws.rs%7Cjsr311-api%7C1.1.1%7Cjar via leiningen like this: lein install javax.ws.rs/jsr311-api 1.1.1
18:29	DerGuteMoritz	however, I get this error: Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NullPointerException (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
18:29	DerGuteMoritz	am I doing something wrong?
18:31	dnolen	sjl: https://gist.github.com/1050007
18:31	DerGuteMoritz	hm putting it into a project.clj and running lein deps works though
18:32	dnolen	sjl: not sure if you need something perf conscious, but if all you want to do is introspect this should be fine.
18:32	sjl	dnolen: Ohh, nice. But is that extremely slow compared to magical bit shifting?
18:32	dnolen	sjl: if you want something fast you need to bit-and then shift.
18:33	dnolen	(bit-and n 0xf0) and (bit-and n 0x0f)
18:34	dnolen	I'm sure there are faster ways, I'm not a bit-twiddling expert
18:35	sjl	hmm, (defn top [b] (bit-shift-right (bit-and b 0xf0) 4))
18:38	dnolen	sjl: yeah that's about 2 orders of magnitude faster.
18:40	sjl	yeah, that's much more workable
18:41	Raynes	DerGuteMoritz: lein and cake's install features are meant to install a jar created from a Clojure project's project.clj file.
18:41	sjl	thanks!
18:41	dnolen	sjl: np
18:43	DerGuteMoritz	Raynes: I see - that's a little odd as at least on my installation the maven.org repository is included by default and it does indeed work through lein deps. cljr install javax.ws.rs/jsr311-api 1.1.1 also works though.
18:44	Raynes	DerGuteMoritz: I was wrong anyway. The lein install task works a little differently than the cake one now.
18:44	Raynes	So, you have reason to complain, methinks. :p
18:45	seancorfield	anyone using clojure.contrib.sql with SQL server or PostgreSQL?
18:45	DerGuteMoritz	Raynes: I was just surprised by that, not really complaining :-)
18:45	seancorfield	i just pushed a fix for clojure.java.jdbc for generated keys which needs testing against those DBs... 0.0.3-SNAPSHOT
18:45	DerGuteMoritz	the reason why I wanted that package in the first place is more complaint-worthy
18:47	dnolen	sjl: yeah the issue is that a bit-shift-right on a negative number fills w/ 1
18:47	sjl	yep
18:47	technomancy	DerGuteMoritz: thanks for the bug report; just fixed it
18:47	technomancy	I don't think anyone's ever tried to use that task on a non-clojure project
18:47	DerGuteMoritz	technomancy: oh, it was an actual bug? you're welcome then! :-)
18:48	DerGuteMoritz	ok looks like I am way off common territory here so I might as well ask for advice, maybe I am doing something wrong
18:48	Raynes	technomancy: Man, you should really let me know when you add functionality like that so that I can do the same for cake. Stop being competitive! <3
18:48	DerGuteMoritz	I'd like to construct an URI (well, URL to be more precise) from a given one
18:49	DerGuteMoritz	turns out that java.net.URI and URL are not quite up to that
18:49	technomancy	Raynes: changelog's that way =)
18:49	Raynes	I'm allergic to changelogs.
18:49	DerGuteMoritz	so I found out about javax.ws.rs.core.UriBuilder
18:50	DerGuteMoritz	which, judging from the API, looks quite promising
18:50	DerGuteMoritz	first question!
18:51	DerGuteMoritz	how do I know from that reference page (which looks kind of official to me) that it is indeed not part of the standard Java distribution? http://download.oracle.com/javaee/6/api/javax/ws/rs/core/package-tree.html
18:51	DerGuteMoritz	or is my JDK version too old or something?
18:51	technomancy	DerGuteMoritz: IIUC "javax" means "not part of the JDK"
18:51	technomancy	kind of like clojure.contrib
18:51	DerGuteMoritz	a-ha!
18:51	seancorfield	btw, if anyone does want to test that, they'd need to pull from sonatype snapshots :)
18:52	DerGuteMoritz	thanks technomancy
18:52	DerGuteMoritz	so has anyone ever used UriBuilder?
18:53	carllerche	technomancy: Any idea how I might be able to have lein deploy use an s3 wagon? It seems that it requires setting build extensions in the pom file
18:54	carllerche	or is that something that would require writing a plugin for?
18:54	DerGuteMoritz	I am new to Clojure but the reference page has this example at the beginning: UriBuilder.fromPath("{arg1}").build("foo#bar"), which I converted into this hopefully idiomatic Clojure call: (. (UriBuilder/fromPath "{arg1}") build "foo#bar")
18:54	technomancy	carllerche: hmm... it could probably go in a plugin and/or future lein version
18:54	DerGuteMoritz	this results in this interesting exception: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.sun.ws.rs.ext.RuntimeDelegateImpl
18:55	technomancy	carllerche: pom entries usually correspond to pretty straightforward calls on the Model object, so often it's easy to translate to the Java API
18:55	rando	technomancy, carllerche: specifically, the pom entry in step 1 of this: http://blog.anzix.net/2010/12/07/using-amazon-s3-as-a-maven-repository/
18:56	DerGuteMoritz	does that mean that the jsr311-api jar is missing a dependency perhaps?
18:57	amalloy	technomancy: that's not accurate. javax.swing.*, for example, is part of the jdk
18:57	DerGuteMoritz	; just in case
18:57	DerGuteMoritz	hehe
18:57	DerGuteMoritz	!
18:57	technomancy	amalloy: huh; didn't know that.
18:57	DerGuteMoritz	then what is javax? hm
18:57	DerGuteMoritz	Java + Chemical X
18:57	Raynes	It means the developers got sick of typing 'java' and wanted to spice things up a bit.
18:58	amalloy	i think it's like..."stuff that not every deployment platform is required to have"? or "less stable"? i dunno
18:58	DerGuteMoritz	searching the tubes for com.sun.ws.rs.ext.RuntimeDelegateImpl yields all kinds of results referencing something named "Jersey"
18:59	Bronsa	http://mindprod.com/jgloss/javax.html
18:59	carllerche	technomancy: Alright, I will take a stab at writing a plugi
19:00	technomancy	carllerche: start a mailing list thread if you get stuck
19:00	carllerche	cool, will do, thanks
19:00	technomancy	will probably have 1.6 released in a few days, otherwise I'd consider putting it in leiningen itself
19:00	DerGuteMoritz	Bronsa: thanks! why does that page contain a link to file:///J:/mindprod/jgloss/javax.html?
19:00	Bronsa	DerGuteMoritz: i have no idea.
19:00	Bronsa	just found it on google
19:01	DerGuteMoritz	oh it seems to be some kind of offline cache
19:01	carllerche	ha, well, i'll see if i can get it done tonight :P I have yet to dig into maven though... so we'll see
19:01	technomancy	if you want to do it in a fork of lein rather than a plugin that could work too; less messing with hooks that way
19:02	technomancy	because that really should be built-in
19:02	technomancy	but then it won't work with older versions.
19:07	DerGuteMoritz	ok, apparently I need an implementation of JAX-RS
19:07	DerGuteMoritz	any recommondations?
19:10	DerGuteMoritz	ok, Jersey it is
19:56	XPherior	Can anyone point me to a good place to learn lambdas? I couldn't find anything good on Google. Maybe I'm just blind.
19:56	amalloy	XPherior: new to functional programming? what other languages are you used to?
19:57	XPherior	I've been trying out Lisp for a few weeks. I sort of understand functional programming. Used to Ruby, Python, Java, C#
19:57	XPherior	For the record, Clojure is the coolest thing I've seen in a while. It just gives me shivers looking at how idiomatic it can be.
19:58	amalloy	XPherior: don't python and ruby have lambdas? are you just looking for clojure's syntax?
19:59	XPherior	Er, yeah. Looking for how it's done in Clojure.
19:59	XPherior	Sorry for not being clear.
19:59	amalloy	,((fn [x y z] (+ x (* y z))) 1 2 3)
19:59	clojurebot	7
19:59	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: it's called `fn' in Clojure
20:00	XPherior	Woah, evaluator bot. Cool.
20:00	XPherior	Why's a function definition called defn and a lambda fn, then?
20:00	gfrlog`	,(let [f (fn [x y] (- x y))] (+ (f 12 15) 9))
20:00	clojurebot	6
20:00	XPherior	Ha! That's brilliant.
20:00	gfrlog`	XPherior: "defn" sorta means "def fn"
20:01	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: (defn foo ...) is short for (def foo (fn ...))
20:01	XPherior	Does that imply that all functions return functions?
20:01	DerGuteMoritz	Clojure is a weird mix of Common Lisp and Scheme in that regard
20:01	gfrlog`	XPherior: no
20:02	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: depends on what you mean by that :-=
20:02	DerGuteMoritz	:-)
20:02	XPherior	DerGuteMoritz: Do all functions return a (fn ...) ?
20:02	gfrlog`	XPherior: do you understand the expression (def foo "bar")?
20:02	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: no, `fn' constitutes a function, (fn ...) is a function
20:02	XPherior	I think. It's a function named foo that's given a string "bar" parameter?
20:03	DerGuteMoritz	note the difference between def and defn!
20:03	XPherior	Mind boggling!
20:03	XPherior	I don't think I quite got it.
20:03	gfrlog`	XPherior: no; it's a lot closer to setting a variable to a value like foo = "bar"
20:03	amalloy	DerGuteMoritz: i don't think your distinction between "constitutes" and "is" makes any sense
20:03	XPherior	Oh! Right. foo would be like a global, correct?
20:03	amalloy	right
20:03	gfrlog`	XPherior: sort of -- it's still qualified by whatever namespace you're in
20:03	DerGuteMoritz	amalloy: that's possible, I made that up :-)
20:04	gfrlog`	so not like a $global in ruby
20:04	XPherior	Okay, wait. So if fn is lamba, what's the hash do?
20:04	gfrlog`	XPherior: syntactic sugar
20:04	gfrlog`	#(+ % 6) <=> (fn [%] (+ % 6))
20:04	amalloy	,'#(inc %)
20:04	clojurebot	(fn* [p1__72#] (inc p1__72#))
20:04	XPherior	,(reduce (fn + %1 %2) (range 100))
20:04	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Symbol
20:04	XPherior	Ah D:
20:05	XPherior	Hm.. That's interesting
20:05	amalloy	demonstrations in #clojure: if you can still read it, there isn't enough punctuation
20:05	DerGuteMoritz	amalloy: wait, it makes a little sense. "constitutes" emphasizes the function of fn while "is" emphasizes the result of the expression, or something like that!
20:05	XPherior	Haha
20:06	gfrlog`	,(#(% %) #(% %))
20:06	clojurebot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
20:06	amalloy	DerGuteMoritz: whatever helps you sleep at night. if you said "constructs" instead of "constitutes" i might buy it
20:06	XPherior	Is it correct to say the body of defn is always a fn, and the fn's result is returned?
20:06	DerGuteMoritz	("function of" not to be taken literally there)
20:07	DerGuteMoritz	amalloy: ok, let's say that instead!
20:07	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: defn doesn't return anything, it binds a function to a name
20:07	gfrlog`	XPherior: (defn foo [x] (bar x)) <==> (def foo (fn [x] (bar x))) <~~> foo = lambda{\|x\|bar(x)}
20:07	DerGuteMoritz	hm wait, I haven't actually verified that
20:07	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: I think it returns the var
20:08	DerGuteMoritz	I see
20:08	DerGuteMoritz	well, but that's secondary anyway
20:10	XPherior	Okay. So what's with all the wacky %s?
20:10	amalloy	XPherior: gfrlog` is just being a smart-ass
20:10	XPherior	Ah
20:10	amalloy	but when you use the #(...) syntax for a lambda, the paramters are implicitly named %1, %2, %3...
20:10	amalloy	and % is short for %1
20:10	XPherior	But even (fn [%] (+ % 6) uses it
20:10	XPherior	Ahh, cool
20:10	XPherior	So I can still do (fn[name age] (...)) if I wanted?
20:10	amalloy	right
20:10	XPherior	That's nice that I can still name arguments in anonymous function
20:10	XPherior	Functions* Keeps the code more understandable sometimes
20:10	amalloy	XPherior: in that context, % is just a symbol like any other. you could replace % with a, or with lkdfahfakf, or with -!$+
20:10	XPherior	That makes sense.
20:10	amalloy	only in #(..) does it have special meaning
20:10	XPherior	Ironically, I really didn't want any documentation of lambas in Clojure.
20:10	amalloy	haha
20:11	XPherior	Hmm
20:11	XPherior	What's the purpose of the body being a fn?
20:11	XPherior	I mean, why would we want that?
20:11	amalloy	XPherior: "the body being a fn" is something you keep saying that i don't understand
20:11	XPherior	(def foo (fn [x] (bar x)) ... (fn [x] (bar x)) <- I'm calling that the body
20:12	XPherior	What would one call that?
20:12	amalloy	don't. call it the value
20:12	amalloy	because def just assigns a value to a var
20:12	DerGuteMoritz	XPherior: in your example, (bar x) would be the body of the function actually
20:13	amalloy	defn does the work of turning the body into a function and then calling def
20:13	XPherior	Okay. So def assigns a variable, fn is a lambda, and defn assigns a fn to a def'ed var?
20:13	amalloy	full marks
20:13	hiredman	except for the use of the word variable
20:14	XPherior	What do Clojure people call it?
20:14	amalloy	we call it "oh god, please no, never let anything vary"
20:14	DerGuteMoritz	heh
20:14	XPherior	Hahaha
20:14	gfrlog`	unless you call def again
20:14	hiredman	XPherior: def creates a var
20:14	technomancy	varies-but-not-at-runtime-able
20:14	DerGuteMoritz	and var is not short for variable?
20:14	hiredman	no
20:15	DerGuteMoritz	aha!
20:15	XPherior	I really like this language. I hope I go far with it.
20:15	hiredman	a var is a specific thing with precises semantics, a variable is not
20:15	amalloy	presumably var was short for variable when it was named, but they are now two distinct concepts
20:16	DerGuteMoritz	as opposed to atoms and refs and whatnot?
20:16	amalloy	DerGuteMoritz: those aren't variables either
20:16	DerGuteMoritz	yeah
20:16	gfrlog`	well how do I get my hands on a damn variable then??
20:16	DerGuteMoritz	I mean err
20:16	amalloy	clojure doesn't have variables in the classic sense; just locals, which don't vary
20:17	amalloy	and reference types
20:17	DerGuteMoritz	you have things like vars, bindings, refs and atoms which are lumped together as "variables" in most other languages
20:17	XPherior	So it's like Haskell in its emphasis on immutability?
20:17	gfrlog`	guess it's time to "lein new variables-clj"
20:17	amalloy	XPherior: a little less so
20:17	amalloy	but a lot more than scala, say
20:17	DerGuteMoritz	gfrlog`: I hear there are transients which are mutable
20:17	amalloy	or, god forbid, ruby
20:17	XPherior	Think reading Programming Clojure is the quickest way to really learn the details of the language?
20:18	technomancy	gfrlog`: there's with-local-vars, but you didn't hear that from me
20:18	amalloy	Joy of Clojure
20:18	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: ah yes. So my library will just figure out how to make transients less restrictive
20:18	XPherior	I kind of want to make an IRC bot in Clojure. Seems like an alright first project.
20:18	amalloy	XPherior: fork sexpbot or clojurebot
20:18	technomancy	gfrlog`: whimper
20:18	amalloy	$whatis source
20:18	sexpbot	source is http://github.com/cognitivedissonance/sexpbot
20:18	gfrlog`	:)
20:18	amalloy	clojurebot: source?
20:18	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
20:18	XPherior	Thanks!
20:18	DerGuteMoritz	gfrlog`: why not use Scheme then ;-)
20:18	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: clojure is the hipster language right now
20:19	XPherior	I notice Clojure's author didn't write any books on it. Wonder why
20:19	DerGuteMoritz	gfrlog`: ah okay, I didn't know that was a requirement
20:19	gfrlog`	XPherior: he didn't have to?
20:19	XPherior	It's just kind of common, I guess.
20:19	amalloy	busy writing it, i imagine
20:19	DerGuteMoritz	by the way, on the clojars site there are no links to the project sites or upstream repositories, or am I mistaken?
20:19	amalloy	he's done several good lectures, which are online
20:20	gfrlog`	"The Richness of Clojure"
20:20	technomancy	DerGuteMoritz: clojars needs help
20:20	XPherior	I'll check those out.
20:20	technomancy	there's a list of "somebody needs to implement this please" features
20:20	XPherior	Are there any good IDES for Windows other than Enclojure?
20:20	technomancy	nobody's bothered yet
20:20	gfrlog`	VirtualBox?
20:20	halfprogrammer	But he has released a bunch of wonderful videos :-)
20:20	DerGuteMoritz	technomancy: cool, where is that list kept?
20:21	halfprogrammer	I mean Rich ^
20:21	technomancy	DerGuteMoritz: http://groups.google.com/group/clojars-maintainers/browse_thread/thread/d4149ec96316d5b1
20:21	XPherior	Does Rich ever come in here?
20:21	gfrlog`	yes
20:22	gfrlog`	it makes all but the most confident of us shut up for 30 minutes
20:22	XPherior	Hahah
20:22	XPherior	I think Clojure is going to take my skills to the next level.
20:22	technomancy	if anyone is interested in hacking clojars, I've got an automated VM setup for hacking clojars that I'm working on
20:22	technomancy	will publish it soon
20:23	technomancy	it's a bit of a bear to config by hand
20:23	gfrlog`	clojars isn't a 30-line compojure app?
20:24	cemerick	XPherior: check out Counterclockwise for eclipse
20:24	technomancy	gfrlog`: there's a bunch of scp-handing stuff necessary to handle deploys
20:24	technomancy	gfrlog`: ~900 LOC
20:24	gfrlog`	technomancy: in clojure?
20:24	technomancy	aye
20:25	gfrlog`	that's respectable
20:25	gfrlog`	c.c.shell-out ftw
20:25	technomancy	gfrlog`: no, scp server handling
20:26	technomancy	can't shell out for that
20:26	gfrlog`	it'd be fun to have a repl plugin where any command that throws an exception gets retried as a shell command
20:26	gfrlog`	s/command/expression
20:26	gfrlog`	sexpbot: botsmack
20:26	gfrlog`	worthless
20:27	gfrlog`	technomancy: I see.
20:27	amalloy	gfrlog`: i remember someone trying to do that as a macro
20:28	amalloy	basically impossible for about ten reasons
20:28	gfrlog`	haha
20:28	gfrlog`	wait really?
20:28	gfrlog`	it sounds too easy
20:28	technomancy	gfrlog`: eshell accepts shell commands and lisp in the same prompt
20:28	DerGuteMoritz	does anyone know of a maven repository that has Jersey 1.8?
20:28	technomancy	it's awesome
20:28	gfrlog`	technomancy: I bet
20:28	technomancy	apart from the lack of lexical scope, I mean. =(
20:29	gfrlog`	I once tried to write a macro that would allow any [sub-]expression to be in reverse order; THAT was impossible
20:29	DerGuteMoritz	lexical-let ftw :-)
20:29	DerGuteMoritz	gfrlog`: you mean a reverse polish notation macro?
20:29	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: (defmacro with-dyslexia ...)
20:30	scgilardi	technomancy: any way to compare the awesomeness of eshell with, say, the awesomeness of the piranhamoose?
20:30	DerGuteMoritz	hm
20:30	technomancy	scgilardi: that's hard! the piranhamoose is _pure_ awesome, whereas eshell is extremely awesome but not 100%.
20:31	XPherior	cemerick: I'll check it out now.
20:31	scgilardi	got it, thanks.
20:31	amalloy	gfrlog`: interesting. i would have guessed the "optional reversing" would be totally viable. what problems did you have?
20:31	amalloy	i mean, aside from compile times in the 2^n range
20:31	gfrlog`	amalloy: well the strategy would be to wrap every [sub-]expression in a try-catch, where the catch tries in reverse
20:31	DerGuteMoritz	that's what I expected
20:32	technomancy	clojurebot: piranhamoose is unadulterated awesome: http://blog.howfastareyou.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/piranhamoose.jpg
20:32	clojurebot	Ok.
20:32	technomancy	attaboy
20:32	gfrlog`	you could do that, but higher order functions might run in reverse-form as well
20:32	gfrlog`	maybe something about special forms as well? :/ I dunno, maybe it'd be halfway workable
20:33	DerGuteMoritz	ooh, like that, I see. that's ambiguous then
20:33	gfrlog`	I guess you could do better than try-catch some of the time by resolving the symbol and seeing what it means
20:35	gfrlog`	...if it's even a symbol
20:37	DerGuteMoritz	just make it a one character macro that reverses the current expression
20:37	gfrlog`	DerGuteMoritz: well the idea was that you could accidentally input things in reverse, so you wouldn't be indicating it explicitely
20:38	DerGuteMoritz	right but that's not possible
20:38	DerGuteMoritz	because of ambiguities
20:38	gfrlog`	so yes, redefining the goal does make it easier :)
20:39	DerGuteMoritz	or ... unintended reverse evaluation
20:39	amalloy	DerGuteMoritz: a risk you have to take when you're dyslexic. not a failing of the library
20:39	gfrlog`	(defmacro <> [& forms] (map reverse forms))
20:39	amalloy	things often work, but then sometimes for reasons you don't understand you have to manually reverse the order to make it work
20:40	amalloy	sounds like dyslexia to me
20:40	amalloy	gfrlog`: that is like 17 steps away from working
20:40	gfrlog`	((forms reverse map) [forms &] <> defmacro)
20:40	gfrlog`	maybe it'll work that way
20:41	amalloy	hah
20:41	gfrlog`	it can't be seventeen, it's more like 3
20:41	amalloy	yes, first step when defining a new macro: see if it's already included in the language
20:41	gfrlog`	I think it's two, but I said three just to be safe
20:41	amalloy	i'm choosing to count each irc message you send as a step in adjusting your thinking the right way
20:42	gfrlog`	I don't accept the rules of your game
20:42	gfrlog`	okay let's try my two fixes
20:43	gfrlog`	(defmacro <> [& forms] (list `do (map #(if (list? %) (reverse %) %) forms)))
20:43	gfrlog`	aw crap
20:43	gfrlog`	s/list/list*
20:43	gfrlog`	or s/list/cons
20:43	amalloy	s/list*/cons
20:44	gfrlog`	list* in case I decide to put anything else in there :)
20:44	amalloy	gfrlog`: you could do a good job of making it totally unreadable with postwalk-replace
20:44	gfrlog`	amalloy: but then I'd have to learn how to do that
20:45	amalloy	just wrap the top-level form with (<> ...) and then you'll have a terrible time making anything work
20:45	hiredman	,(pl (↕map (replicate 3 (↕apply vector $ (↕map range $ 10 inc · inc · inc) call · ⌽* $ 10 · call · (⌽+ -2) map)) shuffle)))
20:45	clojurebot	([80 50 100 60 10 40 70 30 20 90] [80 90 30 60 20 100 10 50 70 40] [70 50 20 100 30 90 40 80 60 10])
20:45	gfrlog`	&(pl (↕map (replicate 3 (↕apply vector $ (↕map range $ 10 inc · inc
20:45	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: pl in this context
20:46	gfrlog`	it's clojurebot voodoo
20:46	amalloy	gfrlog`: (use 'clojure.walk) (defmacro <> [& args] (postwalk-replace reverse args))
20:46	XPherior	Thanks for your wonderful help everyone! You've been excellent. I shall be back!
20:46	XPherior	Good bye.
20:46	gfrlog`	XPherior: bye
20:46	gfrlog`	amalloy: ahh -- that's different from mine too isn't it?
20:47	amalloy	quite
20:47	gfrlog`	reversing at all levels instead of top
20:47	amalloy	yeah
20:47	gfrlog`	I will submit a talk to clojure conj offering to compare and contrast the two approaches
20:48	hiredman	,(pl inc $ inc $ 1)
20:48	clojurebot	3
20:48	gfrlog`	hiredman: what's going on?
20:48	hiredman	,(macroexpand '(pl inc $ inc $ 1))
20:48	clojurebot	(do (inc (inc 1)))
20:49	hiredman	I like to trot pl when people talk about crazy macros
20:49	hiredman	pl out
20:49	gfrlog`	ah ha
20:49	amalloy	haha
20:49	gfrlog`	very good
20:49	amalloy	oh, i read that as "pl out"
20:49	amalloy	like "it's done its job and it's leaving"
20:52	gfrlog`	alright fine I'll go mudge around in hiredman's github account looking for pl
20:53	hiredman	~functional
20:54	clojurebot	I don't understand.
20:54	hiredman	~pl
20:54	clojurebot	examples is http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Examples/API_Examples
20:54	hiredman	~transform
20:54	clojurebot	transform is http://github.com/hiredman/odds-and-ends/blob/8a84e6ddbad9d71f714ba16c3e1239633228a7eb/functional.clj
20:56	gfrlog`	that kevin.clj is pretty weird
20:56	gfrlog`	maybe using emacs results in files like this...
21:03	tomoj	gfrlog`: like what?
21:03	gfrlog`	tomoj: lots of functions mixed with expressions trying them out
21:04	gfrlog`	I think emacs lets you highlight stuff and eval it, so it makes sense of that
21:04	gfrlog`	I only use stone-age tools, so I don't know what it's like to have that kind of power.
21:04	tomoj	not exactly good to stick them in toplevel
21:04	gfrlog`	tomoj: I don't think it's serious code at all
21:04	tomoj	because e.g. they might run on uberjar and stuff
21:04	tomoj	sure
21:05	tomoj	but if one expression takes a long time to run and you C-c C-k (loads the entire file)
21:05	tomoj	...
21:05	tomoj	better to stick those in (comment ) blocks
21:05	tomoj	where they still work just as well for emacs
21:05	tomoj	s/blocks/forms/
22:42	symbole	Is there a lazy http library for Clojure? I looked at clj-http, but it seems like it downloads entire files before returning.
22:51	symbole	clojure.contrib.http.agent seems to be what I want.
23:06	mrnex2010	are there functions to modify a fn, such as to add an arity overload to a fn?
23:08	mrnex2010	(im building an util to add arity overload to all the functions that use a fn that has been overloaded, all the way up to the functions that use it
23:08	mrnex2010	)
23:14	symbole	mrnex2010: I don't quite follow.
23:15	symbole	Clojure has arity overloading, which is specified during function definition.
23:21	mrnex2010	symbole: sorry for the vaguity, what i meant was a function that returns a function with another arity
23:22	mrnex2010	overload
23:23	mrnex2010	i can do it inserting it into the function as a string, but i got curious if we had higher order fns that did that kind of stuff
23:23	symbole	You can use macros to do that for you.
23:24	symbole	Make a macro that creates a function with however many params you want.
23:24	amalloy	this sounds like the sort of thing that doesn't need a macro, but it's hard to understand what the goal is. are you just reinventing partial?
23:25	amalloy	eg, maybe you could gist an example usage of your function and the desired result
23:25	mrnex2010	no, supose you have a fn with 2 params, another fn uses it, and yet another one uses the intermediate fn
23:26	mrnex2010	then you make an overload on the first
23:26	mrnex2010	but your fingers are too delicate to rewrite the other fns with overloads that reflect the overload on the first fn
23:27	amalloy	mrnex2010: you're looking for like a refactoring tool that will add a default argument?
23:27	amalloy	or pass along an argument, i guess
23:28	mrnex2010	amalloy: yes a refactoring tool but not necesarilly a default arg but the arg that is added on a fn yes to pass it along
23:28	mrnex2010	sorry for the boraty writing on the prev line lol
23:29	amalloy	i see. on the one hand, i can see why that would be convenient. on the other, if you have N functions calling each other, and a change to function f requires a change in the api to all N functions, you're probably doing something wrong
23:30	mrnex2010	yeah i can imagine that stuff
23:30	mrnex2010	i just meant it for abstractions like the ones on SICP first chaps
23:31	mrnex2010	and hacking libs
23:36	amalloy	i don't think there's any nice way to do it. you could write a macro which wraps a defn, adds an extra arg to it, and is told what function to internally pass along that function to
23:36	amalloy	but i think it will be less readable and more work
23:37	amalloy	* pass along that arg to