#clojure – 2010-12-13

2010-12-13

00:29	ossareh	zach kills me with how good aleph is!
00:30	Lajla	Raynes, I think you should call her sexbot
00:45	ossareh	Lajla: false advertising?
00:46	Lajla	ossareh, I worship Your Shadow
00:46	ossareh	hobbies yield better results.
02:10	zmyrgel	hi, if I have (:use (foo bar)) in my file's ns macro, shouldn't I be able to refer constants defined in foo.bar?
02:10	zmyrgel	now I just get Unable to resolve symbol error
03:41	amalloy	zmyrgel: yes, you should be able to refer to def'ed variables. though (:use foo.bar) is a bit simpler if you're not doing other foo.baz imports
03:52	_na_ka_na_	,(compare '(1 2 3) '(1 2 3))
03:53	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable
03:53	_na_ka_na_	,(compare (vec '(1 2 3)) (vec '(1 2 3)))
03:53	clojurebot	0
03:53	_na_ka_na_	why can't I compare PersistentLists ^^
03:54	amalloy	_na_ka_na_: good question
03:55	amalloy	&(map (comp supers class) [() []])
03:55	sexpbot	⟹ (#{clojure.lang.Sequential clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.io.Serializable java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Counted java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.IPersistentStack clojure.lang.Obj clojure.lang.IObj java.util.Collection clojure.lang.IPersistentList java.util.Li... http://gist.github.com/738808
03:57	amalloy	_na_ka_na_: i mean, the answer is what you'd expect: () doesn't implement Comparable. but why is that? i don't know any better than you do
03:57	amalloy	&(apply compare (map seq [[1 2]
03:57	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: EOF while reading
03:57	amalloy	&(apply compare (map seq [[1 2] '(1 2)]))
03:57	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq cannot be cast to java.lang.Comparable
04:05	kryft	Oo, there's a clojure course coming up at Helsinki University.
04:06	opqdonut	yes, I'm teaching :)
04:06	Licenser	morning
04:09	kryft	opqdonut: Sattuuko se olemaan jatko-opintokelpoinen? :P
04:09	opqdonut	kryft: juttelen tänään opintoesimiehen kanssa, varmaan onnistuu
04:09	kryft	opqdonut: Also, if I want to attend the course, is it a problem that I'll be in London until the end of April?-)
04:10	opqdonut	:D I'm sure we'll figure something out
04:10	opqdonut	if you want the credit
04:11	opqdonut	the course is going to be workshop-like, students can work on their own projects or given exercises
04:11	kryft	Great.
04:11	opqdonut	that'll leave us with more time to focus on those who haven't done lisps before
04:12	opqdonut	but there'll be mini-lectures on advanced stuff like performance tuning
04:12	opqdonut	I'm hoping 1.3 will come out before the course starts... :)
04:13	kryft	I haven't done lisps before, although I do feel I've grasped the basics of the functional programming paradigm.
04:14	opqdonut	the material will be on the web
04:15	opqdonut	as I said, we'll figure something out. you can email me when the course starts or something
04:15	kryft	Great. :) When does it start?
04:16	opqdonut	well that's what I'm going to sort out today :D
04:16	opqdonut	the course will probably be during period III
04:16	opqdonut	so about 17.01.-06.03.
04:17	opqdonut	but we might do something like have teaching in pIII but let people hand in stuff during pIV too
04:17	kryft	opqdonut: Oh, and the credits would be nice because then I could study at work with a clean conscience. ;)
04:18	opqdonut	yes of course. if you participate you will get the credits. and I'm quite open to "vaihtoehtoiset suoritusmuodot"
04:20	kryft	opqdonut: I have some work-related ideas for small projects that I was planning to do anyway after reading The Joy of Clojure (eg. implementing a dimensionality reduction algorithm that I've previously written in C++).
04:20	opqdonut	with parallelism?-)
04:20	kryft	Yes. :)
04:20	opqdonut	soudns good
04:20	opqdonut	but I gtg ->
04:21	opqdonut	(you might want to join the lambda mailing list if you're into stuff like this, see http://lambda.fi)
08:33	jcromartie	oi vey, so let me tell you what's a bad idea
08:34	jcromartie	approaching data obfuscation by selecting every distinct value in each column of each table, transforming it, and updating that distinct value with the new value
08:34	jcromartie	6 hours for one column in one table
08:39	kzar	I have a ref of a vector of stuff, I want to filter the vector taking what I need and at the same time removing it from the original vector. I can't figure out how to update the vector in such a way that I get the removed values returned without duplicating the work
08:40	kzar	(So I get a vector of the stuff I've filtered for and the original vector that's referenced is updated so that only things that didn't match the filter are left.)
08:41	chouser	kzar: I think you might need loop/recur for that.
08:41	kzar	chouser: Cool OK I rekon I can figure it out in that case :D
08:42	chouser	If there's an existing HOF that'll do that, it's not coming to mind at the moment.
08:44	kzar	HOF
08:45	chouser	High Order Function
08:45	kzar	heh
08:45	chouser	oh
08:45	kzar	Lowest order joke, sorry heh
08:51	Licenser	cookies
08:52	islon	is this the right way to define a private var? (def ^{:private true} background Color/WHITE)
08:52	islon	?
08:53	stuartsierra	yes
08:53	Licenser	what is the reason for not having def-?
08:53	Licenser	I mean there is defn- too
08:54	islon	thats exactly what I was thinking
08:55	Licenser	I wondered that a time ago, then just forgot it, but now that you mention it I wonder why tzhere is no def- I am sure there is a very reasonable explenation since I doubt Rick or any other of the core defs for that matter would just forget something like that
08:55	Licenser	,,,,,, <- put them where apropriate
08:55	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: <- in this context
08:56	raek	get assoc dissoc ______
08:56	Licenser	update-in?
08:57	raek	get-in assoc-in _________ update-in
08:57	Licenser	oh cheater!
08:57	s450r1	kzar: doesn't split-with get you most of the way there?
08:57	chouser	update-in fills all three slots
08:57	Licenser	see that is why it is a good answer :P
08:57	Licenser	so I'm not even sure what the question was
08:58	kzar	s450r1: Oh yea, I'm just writing it now but I didn't think of using split-with good idea
08:58	kzar	s450r1: This is good practice for me :D
08:59	chouser	I don't think split-with returns what he wants, and runs pred twice for every input element until it returns false
08:59	fliebel	kzar: (juxt filter remove)
08:59	chouser	fliebel: I think that returns what he wants, but runs pred twice for every input element. :-)
09:00	Licenser	I think to think I found a bug ccw
09:00	fliebel	chouser: true
09:00	kzar	it's elegant though
09:00	tonyl	morning
09:00	islon	does it work? (defmacro def- [name value]
09:00	islon	`(def ^{:private true} ~name ~value))
09:04	kzar	although doing it that way with juxt makes us calculate the new value outside of updating the ref, so we can't use alter
09:04	s450r1	chouser: thanks for the correction
09:04	chouser	,(map #(map second %) ((juxt filter remove) first (for [i (range 10)] [(odd? i) i])))
09:04	clojurebot	((1 3 5 7 9) (0 2 4 6 8))
09:06	fliebel	kzar: Using alter wont work anyway, because you can't return the values you want, set, and still return values somewhere else.
09:07	fliebel	kzar: I havn;t worked with refs much, but is'nt the whole point you start a stransaction and do whatever you like inside it?
09:07	bartj	I have the following scenario:
09:07	bartj	defined a buffered writer, some print statements, defined method
09:07	chouser	,(loop [[x & xs :as c] (range 10), f [], r []] (if c (if (odd? x) (recur xs (conj f x) r) (recur xs f (conj r x))) [f r]))
09:07	clojurebot	[[1 3 5 7 9] [0 2 4 6 8]]
09:07	bartj	method has a couple of print statments but this time with out being bound to a file
09:08	bartj	but despite the call to the method being after , it gets printed first!
09:09	bartj	is there some precedence w.r.t out being given precedence over BufferedWriters ?
09:10	fliebel	bartj: have you tried (flush)?
09:10	fliebel	(wild guess)
09:12	raek	bartj: are you sure this is not caused by that you return a lazy seq out from the binding form?
09:13	raek	(binding [out ...something...] ...some-lazy-seq...) --> (binding [out ...something...] (doall ...some-lazy-seq...))
09:15	bartj	raek, I seem to return a PersistentList
09:15	fliebel	kzar: ##((juxt #(apply concat (take-nth 2 %)) #(apply concat (take-nth 2 (next %)))) (partition-by odd? [1 2 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9]))
09:15	sexpbot	⟹ [(1 3 5 5 7 9) (2 2 4 8)]
09:17	raek	laziness plus binding is often a source of problems...
09:17	kzar	fliebel: to be honest some of those ideas are going over my head
09:18	fliebel	kzar: It's pure evil. It least make the apply a reduce.
09:18	bartj	raek, lists are not lazy, no?
09:19	kzar	fliebel: heh
09:19	raek	PersistentLists (from 'list' or conjing onto () or nil), no
09:19	fliebel	kzar: look up partition-by, and you'll understand… maybe.
09:20	kzar	fliebel: heh OK, gimme a min I'm going to try my idea for solving it
09:20	fliebel	kzar: sure :)
09:22	fliebel	Will sexpbot on Twitter only respond to replies, or also to mentions?
09:23	ivey	sexpbot is on Twitter now?
09:23	ivey	Raynes: using my code, or has it changed? I haven't had time to look at it in a while
09:28	fliebel	Raynes: Seems sexpbot is down on Twitter?
09:38	kotarak	Single pass separate-by. Can this be de-uglified? http://paste.pocoo.org/show/304306
09:44	karmazilla	kotarak: what's it do?
09:49	kotarak	karmazilla: it returns [(filter pred coll) (remove pred coll)] in one pass
09:50	kotarak	karmazilla: hopefully as lazy as possible
09:51	karmazilla	kotarak: I guess somehow using reduce in there would make it less ugly
09:51	fliebel	kotarak: Did you see my 'solution'?
09:52	kotarak	fliebel: eh. No?
09:52	fliebel	karmazilla: I think so to… one min
09:52	kotarak	fliebel: you mean juxt?
09:52	fliebel	&((juxt #(reduce concat (take-nth 2 %)) #(reduce concat (take-nth 2 (next %)))) (partition-by odd? [1 2 2 3 4 5 5 7 8 9]))
09:52	sexpbot	⟹ [(1 3 5 5 7 9) (2 2 4 8)]
09:53	kotarak	fliebel: reduce smell like "non-lazy"
09:54	fliebel	kotarak: True
09:54	fliebel	But how can you make something that returns a vector lazy?
09:54	kotarak	fliebel: the requirements are: as lazy as possible, only one pass of predicate check
09:55	kotarak	fliebel: the contents are lazy
09:55	kotarak	and thread-safe of course (re requirements)
09:55	fliebel	So you're doing a lazy asynchronous recur? :)
09:56	kotarak	fliebel: well, it's synchronous: when asked for it it happens on the calling thread.
09:57	fliebel	kotarak: But you add elements to both queues as much as needed for the one that is consumed, right?
09:57	kotarak	fliebel: yes. This is obviously necessary.
09:59	fliebel	It's an interesting problem for sure :)
10:00	kotarak	fliebel: and it is kind of tricky re threads. atoms don't work, refs don't work... I think one needs a locking here.
10:01	fliebel	kotarak: I'm not sure I understand.
10:01	karmazilla	to prevent two threads from calling pred on the same element, one needs mutual exclusion
10:01	kotarak	fliebel: transactions get merged with surrounding ones, so we kind use refs, because the our changes might get replayed if the surrounding ref retries.
10:01	kzar	Can you duplicate a mutable value to somewhere immutable so you know it's safe to use later?
10:02	kotarak	fliebel: atoms don't work, because we cannot handle things in one call.
10:02	kotarak	fliebel: still some kind of sync is required. as karmazilla said: one might realise the true and the false seq in parallel.
10:03	karmazilla	the choices seem to boil down to eager, synchronized or thread-unsafe
10:03	fliebel	ouch… it's more complicated than I thought.
10:04	islon	how do i remove the reflection warning from (proxy-super paintComponent g)?
10:04	kotarak	hmmm the drawback of this solution is, that one seq can block the other if the items are ill-distributed in terms of satisfying the predicate... In particular on an infinite seq. grmpf Maybe two passes are still better?
10:05	fliebel	kotarak: simpler for sure...
10:05	kotarak	fliebel: nice golf anyway :)
10:05	fliebel	golf?
10:06	LauJensen	karmazilla: Hey - Coming this thursday for the Clojure meetup in Cph ?
10:06	kotarak	fliebel: code golf - some play to solve a fun problem
10:06	fliebel	ah
10:06	karmazilla	LauJensen: yes I am :)
10:06	LauJensen	karmazilla: Look forward to seeing you there :)
10:07	karmazilla	LauJensen: me too. I wanted to go last time, but other plans got in the way :-/
10:08	LauJensen	karmazilla: Last time we had some improv fun with Moustache and Enlive, next up is Cucumber I think
10:08	fliebel	kotarak: Must… Think… About… A… Better... Solution...
10:08	kotarak	fliebel: hehe :)
10:08	karmazilla	LauJensen: which I really look forward to. BDD is a pretty vague concept to me still
10:09	LauJensen	karmazilla: Fortunately Martin (mjul) seems to be somewhat of an authority on the issue
10:09	karmazilla	nice
10:09	kzar	(let [val (nth @some-ref 2)] ...somechanges... val) is screwing me because val changes as some-ref does, how do I get the value val in a safer way?
10:20	kzar	oh unless it's something to do with laziness
10:23	LauJensen	Has anybody made some Google Maps integration for Clojure?
10:24	fliebel	kotarak, kzar: https://gist.github.com/739089
10:26	fliebel	kotarak: Am I right that this is lazy al the way through, and only evaluates pred once?
10:26	kotarak	kotarak: I think so.
10:28	kotarak	fliebel: But the sequence must not include nils.
10:28	kotarak	fliebel: the input sequence that is
10:29	fliebel	kotarak: True. But other than that, it seems to work like a charm.
10:30	kzar	fliebel kotarak: Here's my version http://paste.lisp.org/display/117638
10:30	kzar	It's aim is a bit different from yours, it's also slightly broken the results are wrong
10:32	fliebel	$sed -kzar s/it's/its/
10:32	sexpbot	<kzar> its aim is a bit different from yours, its also slightly broken the results are wrong
10:32	fliebel	hey, I din't gave you the g option, sexpbot!
10:33	kotarak	kzar: You cannot reliably deref an agent. (you can that is, but you cannot be sure to not miss something if you do it two times)
10:33	kzar	fliebel: Thanks I struggle with grammer / spelling
10:34	gtrak	but the second it's is right
10:34	fliebel	kzar: It's not important, I was just trying to figure out sexpbot.
10:34	kzar	heh well I care, I'm working on it
10:35	fliebel	gtrak: That is why I complained, I didn't add the g option at the end. Real sed would've only replaced the first one.
10:35	gtrak	ah
10:35	kzar	kotarak: Hmm balls so maybe my idea is pretty much broken
10:36	gtrak	do you guys generally prefer clojure for utility type stuff?
10:37	fliebel	gtrak: Meh, JVM, classpath, startuptime… I prefer Python for that kind of stuff.
10:38	gtrak	yea I like python too
10:41	karmazilla	fliebel: some Either type/api could make your version support nil values, I think
10:42	fliebel	karmazilla: I think so to...
10:44	kzar	fliebel kotarak: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117638#1 this one is working pretty well but you might hate it after all the clever solutions you found heh
10:45	kotarak	kzar: split-with is cheating: it's two pass ;-P
10:46	fliebel	karmazilla: I like my solution, so I'm not going to bother making it ugly with extra conditionals and checks.
10:46	kzar	I might make a three pass version just to annoy everyone
10:49	kotarak	fliebel: fixed for nils http://paste.pocoo.org/show/304345
10:49	kotarak	fliebel: Although this really creates a lot of short-lived garbage objects... (<- premature optimiser in me...)
10:50	fliebel	kotarak: I think I prefer mine, as long as I don't need nil values :)
10:51	Raynes	fliebel: You still need to prefix with & to evaluate code on twitter.
10:52	fliebel	Raynes: Does ## work as well?
10:52	Raynes	Yes.
10:52	fliebel	And a mention rather than a reply?
10:53	Raynes	I didn't see an API function for replying.
10:53	Raynes	I'll look later.
10:53	fliebel	Raynes: No, I think it's awesome to be able to do ##(prinltn "hi") and /cc @sexpbot
10:53	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: prinltn in this context
10:55	bartj	how can I ask clojure.java.io/writer to open a file in append mode?
10:56	bartj	:append true
10:58	kzar	fliebel kotarak: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117638#2 <- my one pass seperate by
10:59	karmazilla	looks eager
11:00	bartj	are the options to clojure.java.io/writer sent as a hash-map?
11:00	kzar	karmazilla: crap I didn't think of that side of things
11:02	kotarak	kzar: Sorry, couldn't resist: made things a bit more "idiomatic" for this style of programming: http://paste.lisp.org/display/117638#3 Also: your solution gives the results in the wrong order. (because of cons to lists)
11:04	karmazilla	I think fliebels unzip-like approach is good
11:04	kzar	kotarak: Oo thanks
11:21	FireSnake	hello anyone here use appengine-magic?
11:22	FireSnake	can anyone hear me at all?
11:23	ohpauleez	FireSnake: Loud and clear, I don't use it though
11:23	FireSnake	how come I can't hear everyone else?
11:24	fliebel	FireSnake: It's just rather quite in here.
11:24	FireSnake	what do you all come here for then?
11:24	FireSnake	if not to talk?
11:24	fliebel	Hammocking :)
11:25	FireSnake	? What's hammocking?
11:25	FireSnake	or just joking around
11:25	fliebel	FireSnake: http://blip.tv/file/4457042
11:26	FireSnake	won't load in my page
11:26	Vinzent	FireSnake, probably you should ask your question and we'll try to help you
11:27	FireSnake	I'm trying to deploy a Google App Engine app and don't know how to set the default war file
11:28	FireSnake	fliebel I can't open your link
11:29	FireSnake	on Ubuntu Firefox
11:29	FireSnake	how does everyone in here deploy their clojure web apps?
11:30	fliebel	FireSnake: Unfortunate :( You might Google it: "Hammock-driven Development" Though it's not that important.
11:35	fliebel	Does anyone have inspiring insights or code on how to find the best mach for a map like the ones coming from frequencies against a whole list of them? Ouch, I can't even explain what I mean.
11:36	edw	cascading
11:37	fliebel	edw?
11:38	lrenn	FireSnake: have you googled "clojure google app engine"? There seems to be quite a bit of info floating around.
11:39	FireSnake	lrenn yes I have and am in the middle of my tutorial but don't know how to set the default war file
11:41	lrenn	FireSnake: /join #compojure
11:42	FireSnake	ok thx
11:42	r0man	LauJensen: I have some basic google maps stuff over here: https://github.com/r0man/google-maps-clj
11:42	LauJensen	r0man: Thanks I'll take a look, but I already rolled my own
11:42	lrenn	FireSnake: sorry, didn't actually mean to send you there just yet. was trying to see how many folks were in there. They might have more experience with it than the folks here.
11:49	fliebel	Why doesn't reduce take more colls, just like map?
12:06	fliebel	Awesome, I can do language detection :)
12:09	LauJensen	fliebel: me too, Ive detected you're speaking english
12:11	fliebel	LauJensen: Hah! Wrong, it's actually Denglish. (English spoken by Dutch people, according to "I always get my sin")
12:12	fliebel	(zin ~= desire)
12:13	fliebel	LauJensen: But what I meant to say is that I managed to compare the output of (frequencies "some text") to decide which language it is.
12:14	amalloy	fliebel: the behavior of reduce working on multiple maps is not obvious. should f take N arguments, or what?
12:15	fliebel	amalloy: Yes, this is the same for map, right?
12:15	hiredman	if reduce takes multiple collections, does it an init value or not?
12:16	fliebel	hiredman: Good, point… What if…
12:17	cemerick	it's still reducing to a single value…why not?
12:17	amalloy	cemerick: because it can't figure out which args are init values
12:17	amalloy	(reduce f x y)
12:17	fliebel	cemerick: What if there isn't a init value? Would you take the first of the first, of a seq of all firsts?
12:18	amalloy	is x a coll, or an init value?
12:18	hiredman	cemerick: I'm just saying it's debatable, so by not taking multiple collections we can avoid debate
12:18	clizzin_	so i was dumb and misunderstood a serialize function that actually serialized to a clojure map instead of a string, and then wrote that map to a file, where it's represented by one map entry per line. is there a way i can read this back in and make it a clojure map again?
12:18	fliebel	amalloy: Also true....
12:19	clizzin_	the file looks something like: [:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134 :bar2 4.34934}]\n[:foo2 {:bar1 3.4562 :bar2 9.24343}]
12:20	fliebel	So the way to do this is (reduce f i (map vec col col col))
12:20	hiredman	vector
12:20	hiredman	vec doesn't do what you want
12:20	kotarak	,(read-string "[:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134 :bar2 4.34934}]\n[:foo2 {:bar1 3.4562 :bar2 9.24343}]")
12:20	clojurebot	[:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134, :bar2 4.34934}]
12:21	kotarak	clizzin_: I guess you just read the stuff back in with—eh—read.
12:22	kotarak	,(read-string (str "[" "[:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134 :bar2 4.34934}]\n[:foo2 {:bar1 3.4562 :bar2 9.24343}]" "]"))
12:22	clojurebot	[[:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134, :bar2 4.34934}] [:foo2 {:bar1 3.4562, :bar2 9.24343}]]
12:22	kotarak	,(into {} (read-string (str "[" "[:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134 :bar2 4.34934}]\n[:foo2 {:bar1 3.4562 :bar2 9.24343}]" "]")))
12:22	clojurebot	{:foo1 {:bar1 0.00134, :bar2 4.34934}, :foo2 {:bar1 3.4562, :bar2 9.24343}}
12:23	clizzin_	kotarak: thanks! was not aware of the read-string function, that looks like just what i want.
12:24	kotarak	clizzin_: you might also want to read several times from a reader incrementally using read instead of read-string. YMMV
12:24	fogus`	cemerick: Don't cha know... nothing worth talking about happens in software outside of the Bay area. Sheesh
12:25	cemerick	fogus`: Yeah, they've only got COBOL books down here at the 5 and dime.
12:26	ejackson	fogus`: and in the UK we spell it Clojoure.
12:26	fogus`	"self-righteous metropolitan exceptionalism" -- wow!
12:26	cemerick	fogus`: too harsh? :_)
12:26	cemerick	:-)
12:27	fogus`	cemerick: Well, I posted it to HN for you. :-) http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2001177
12:27	cemerick	DOOM awaits me, surely.
12:27	fogus`	cemerick: It's no more harsh than it needs to be.
12:28	technomancy	cemerick: I've got a rocket launcher if you need to borrow one.
12:28	chouser	I'm in Fort Wayne, loving my job. No argument here.
12:28	kzar	I'm an idiot wherever I go heh
12:28	cemerick	fogus`: I happened to hear a half-dozen offhand comments in that direction last week, one personally in my direction. Had to put it out there.
12:29	chouser	oh, and I've been to the bay area on business and have simply no interest at all in living there.
12:30	cemerick	chouser: in that case, you will simply never amount to anything! ;-)
12:30	cemerick	technomancy: huh, I thought you were in portland!
12:31	fogus`	I did the whole Sillicon valley interview tour a few years ago and while it was very exciting to see it for the first time, I didn't feel a connection with the area
12:31	technomancy	Portland is where I'd be if I weren't in Seattle
12:32	cemerick	Right…SEAjure. Dummy. :-(
12:32	technomancy	this is my favourite post on the bay area mindset: http://gilesbowkett.blogspot.com/2008/05/never-hate-only-ever-destroy.html
12:33	cemerick	Yeah, that's classic.
12:34	pjstadig	i think there may be some business arguments to being near VCs and corporate customers, but i'm not nearly an expert in this
12:35	pjstadig	if you're going to bootstrap and sell direct to consumers, then there's probably nearly zero reason to have to be in the Bay area
12:35	pjstadig	great technical talent lives everywhere, as we know at sonian
12:36	cemerick	Of course, the corporate customers are surely everywhere, and not just in sfbay.
12:36	pjstadig	true and there's always this thing called plane travel
12:36	ejackson	its nice to be near universities because of the interesting people that tend to be around
12:36	cemerick	And I always ignore any arguments that might include deference to VC-anything.
12:37	cemerick	s/ignore/discount
12:37	sexpbot	<cemerick> And I always discount any arguments that might include deference to VC-anything.
12:37	cemerick	Maybe much to my detriment.
12:37	chouser	oh, I'm sure I'd have a wider selection of great jobs if I were willing to move to Silicon Valley. But I have some selection of great jobs right here, and moving there would simply not be worth it.
12:37	pjstadig	yeah i agree with you, i think the argument is weak, but i think its the only argument you can make
12:37	cemerick	ejackson: That's probably a much better indicator for a good area to be in.
12:38	ohpauleez	cemerick: Awesome post man
12:39	technomancy	chouser: the thing about jobs is you only need one =)
12:40	chouser	technomancy: exactly
12:40	cky	chouser: You can move to the Triangle, where Relevance is, and work in Clojure. :-P
12:40	ohpauleez	I will say that being near universities or interesting user groups/hacker-spaces that are pushing the envelope is nice
12:40	cky	chouser: It's a lot cheaper living than Silicon Valley. :-P
12:40	ohpauleez	you can find those almost anywhere, but you almost always find them in large cities
12:41	chouser	cky: yup. Or I can live right here, which is cheaper than both, and work in Clojure. :-)
12:41	cemerick	ohpauleez: thanks :-)
12:41	cky	chouser: :-P
12:41	cky	chouser: Where is Fort Wayne, anyway?
12:42	chouser	cky: http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-8&q=fort+wayne&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Fort+Wayne,+Allen,+Indiana&gl=us&ei=DVsGTZeRHM-4ngfH-cHlDQ&oi=geocode_result&ved=0CCsQ8gEwAA&ll=40.32142,-85.561523&spn=7.637564,10.327148&t=rm&z=7
12:42	chouser	ugh. sorry, that's ugly
12:43	fogus`	cemerick: This is a nice juxtaposition to your post. http://svstartup.com/~svstartu/index.php?title=Main_Page
12:43	cky	chouser: It's okay. At least I could tell from the URL that it's in IN.
12:43	cemerick	fogus`: yeah, I saw that at the top of HN, so I figured I should go ahead and retweet the post :-)
12:46	fogus`	Living in the DC area, there is a related idea that if you're not working in Govt contracting then you're less than human.
12:46	fogus`	In my experience anyway... maybe pjstadig has different experiences
12:47	amalloy	chouser: /msg sexpbot bitly <URL>
12:50	amalloy	he also supports isgd, and (i think) tinyurl
12:50	zemariamm	hello everyone
12:50	ohpauleez	hi zemariamm
12:51	zemariamm	back to clojureland after some time away :)
12:51	zemariamm	I just started using leiningen
12:51	zemariamm	however I'm having a problem which I believe is pretty common
12:51	zemariamm	(since I found a bunch of posts about it on the clojure group :) )
12:52	zemariamm	here's the deal, I need to use some external jar on my app, this works fine during development
12:52	zemariamm	I just place them under my lib/ dir
12:52	zemariamm	and no problem
12:53	zemariamm	however I need to build a standalone jar
12:53	zemariamm	so lein uberjar
12:53	zemariamm	however
12:53	zemariamm	that command will first call "lein clean"
12:53	zemariamm	and delete my external jar and the compilation fails
12:53	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: you may find this thread useful -- http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen/browse_thread/thread/88a4052507197cbb
12:53	zemariamm	how do you guys solve this ?
12:55	zemariamm	kumarshantanU: thanks I'll have a look
12:58	amalloy	zemariamm: istr the easiest way is to install the jar to your local repo and then depend on it
12:58	zemariamm	so
12:59	zemariamm	I can put it under ~/repository/
12:59	zemariamm	and add this :repositories { "localShared" "file://~/m2"} to my project.clj , right ?
12:59	zemariamm	I meant ~/m2/repository
12:59	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: yes, but you should put the files under ~/m2 then
13:00	kumarshantanu	yes, right
13:00	zemariamm	awesome, going to try it :)
13:00	amalloy	zemariamm: ~/.m2 is already on your repo path, i think
13:00	kumarshantanu	amalloy: what is istr? any URL?
13:00	amalloy	$google istr
13:00	sexpbot	First out of 58400 results is: International Society for Third Sector Research(ISTR)
13:00	sexpbot	http://www.istr.org/
13:00	amalloy	damn
13:00	amalloy	i seem to recall
13:00	amalloy	kumarshantanu: ^^
13:02	gtrak	$lein repl
13:02	zemariamm	humm
13:02	zemariamm	still doesn't find it
13:02	zemariamm	so , I added :repositories { "localShared" "file://~/.m2"}
13:02	zemariamm	to my project.clj
13:02	zemariamm	and added the external jars under ~/.m2/repository
13:03	amalloy	zemariamm: i'm afraid my maven know-how begins and ends with "cake/lein use it; ~/.m2 is important somehow"
13:03	zemariamm	lool
13:03	zemariamm	yet my maven knowledge is about zero
13:03	zemariamm	:)
13:04	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: you may need to follow this http://maven.apache.org/guides/mini/guide-3rd-party-jars-local.html to install the JAR in the repo
13:04	zemariamm	ah thanks, I'll have a look
13:04	kumarshantanu	because it needs a pom.xml file too, which is generated when you do a "mvn install"
13:04	zemariamm	I see
13:05	kumarshantanu	Maven is insane, you see ;-)
13:06	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: forgot to mention, you wil need to install Maven2 if you want to run "mvn install"
13:06	zemariamm	got it
13:06	zemariamm	this seems to help too: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/3a20228de255afa9
13:08	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: what's interesting is -- if you run "mvn install" for the local JAR then you don't need that ["localShared" "~/m2/"] thing
13:09	zemariamm	humm
13:09	kumarshantanu	because the local JAR is already part of the local maven2 repo
13:09	zemariamm	I'm still trying to hack something out , a simple shortcut :)
13:10	amalloy	zemariamm: mvn install is a shorter cut :P
13:10	Licenser	aloa
13:11	zemariamm	hehehe
13:11	zemariamm	ok, I'm sold, going to try maven :)
13:11	Licenser	you can also run lein install I think
13:11	Licenser	then everything works splendid without the other stuff
13:12	kumarshantanu	Licenser: you can? I thought "lein install" works for a project.clj only
13:13	Licenser	yes but when he wants to add stuff for the project.clj he seems to have one
13:13	Licenser	mvn instal only works on pom.xml as well right?
13:14	kumarshantanu	"lein install" degenerates into (1) generate POM (2) mvn package and (3) mvn install
13:14	Licenser	it still works :P also it shields you from writing 200+ lines XML files for maven
13:14	kumarshantanu	or the equivalent
13:15	gtrak	more like copy-pasting 200+ lines :-)
13:15	Licenser	still 200+ lines
13:15	gtrak	maven's not THAT bad
13:15	Licenser	I have to use it on winows so yes it is :P
13:15	Licenser	at least for me
13:15	ohpauleez	he's a witch, kick him out of the channel :)
13:15	gtrak	heh me too
13:16	Licenser	what I'd wish was if there was a way to write a project.clj then 1:1 translate it to the corresponding pom.xml
13:16	ohpauleez	Everytime I have to start using maven on a project, a childhood memory dies, and somewhere, a kitten dies
13:17	Licenser	what is childhood?
13:17	kumarshantanu	as the folklore goes: once there was a bright programmer who went to work for a Java enterprise; he reported mentally unstable the next day...it was later heard he was actually asked to debug the build process involving 4096 lines of pom.xml ;-)
13:17	gtrak	jesus
13:18	gtrak	why such a round number?
13:18	Licenser	I don't belive a word
13:18	Licenser	it surely were more then 4k lines :P
13:18	ohpauleez	haha
13:18	cemerick	gtrak: take heart, those of us in #clojure that use maven simply ignore the hyperbole. You're far from alone. :-)
13:18	zemariamm	nice, maven installed
13:19	gtrak	haha, well, it's waht I'm used to with java, but i agree maven has a lot of ceremony you're forced to go through
13:19	zemariamm	I see a groupId, artifactId version and packaging, where can I learn about this ? Since I can't omit it (it will give me an error back)
13:19	cemerick	gtrak: it's the ceremony/capability ratio that you want to worry about :-)
13:19	gtrak	pretty arbitrary zemariamm
13:19	Licenser	I don't mind maven I mind the pom.xml and the sometimes horrible documentation and overcomplexity
13:20	zemariamm	gtrak: awesome, that's the answer I was looking for :)
13:20	gtrak	just make sure they line up
13:20	Licenser	zemariamm: to learn maven you are required to know maven!
13:20	zemariamm	Licenser: LOOOOOL
13:20	zemariamm	:)
13:20	gtrak	also, you might want to make sure there isn't already an existing pom, but I guess you know that?
13:20	ejackson	ACK - I'm going to cook supper.
13:21	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: lein [org.apache/foo "1.1.0"] -- translates to groupId=org.apache artifactId=foo version=1.1.0
13:21	gtrak	if it's in a repo online, it'll be cleaner
13:21	zemariamm	ahh, awesome
13:30	LauJensen	kumarshantanu: same for cake
13:30	zemariamm	fellas, I think it worked!
13:31	kumarshantanu	LauJensen: Yes project.clj is the same for lein and cake now I think
13:31	LauJensen	kumarshantanu: not quite, but we're working on the unification
13:32	kumarshantanu	LauJensen: oh okay
13:33	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: cool
13:33	zemariamm	:D
13:33	zemariamm	guys thanks so much for the help
13:33	zemariamm	i owe you a couple of beers
13:34	zemariamm	I'll post every step on a blog post or something like that, it's kind of useful :)
13:34	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: +1
13:38	Licenser	out of curiosity what are the advantages/disadvantages of cake and lein
13:38	Licenser	save for one being tastier from the name
13:39	kumarshantanu	lein can fight the ants, and cake attracts them ;-)
13:39	zemariamm	humm
13:40	zemariamm	guys, related question
13:40	zemariamm	I've my main function defined as expected
13:40	zemariamm	and I have no problem
13:40	Licenser	but I can eat cake and I can't eat lein, well I think I could but it would be illegal
13:40	zemariamm	running "lein run"
13:40	zemariamm	(I specify :main in the project.clj file)
13:40	zemariamm	however I cant run a standalone jar
13:41	zemariamm	i get back a Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError
13:42	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: does "lein uberjar" followed by "java -jar uberjar-name.jar" work?
13:42	zemariamm	nope, I get back a Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: qrdecoder/core
13:42	zemariamm	qrdecoder/core has my main function
13:43	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: did you declare :gen-class in the ns of the file containing -main ?
13:43	zemariamm	yep
13:43	zemariamm	(it works with "lein run")
13:45	Licenser	hmmm hmmm
13:46	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: did you specify the main name in project.clj?
13:46	zemariamm	yep: " :main qrdecoder.core"
13:46	zemariamm	if I didnt specify it, lein run would break I think
13:47	amalloy	zemariamm: one thing i like about cake is the persistent jvm. i think lein is adding that feature soonish, or maybe already has
13:47	zemariamm	amalloy: what's cake ?
13:47	technomancy	amalloy: it has interactive mode that keeps JVMs resident, yes
13:48	amalloy	oh, Licenser was the one who asked that questions, not you zemariamm. sorry about that
13:48	zemariamm	amalloy: np
13:48	kzar	Am I right in guesing "B cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn" means I'm trying to call a byte as if it where a function?
13:48	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: I have seen this NoClassDefFoundError couple of times myself, but can't remember what solved it -- there is a checklist for getting standalone JARs to run
13:48	amalloy	kzar: ##((byte 1))
13:48	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Byte cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:49	kzar	amalloy: Oh, then what does it mean by B?
13:49	zemariamm	kumarshantanu: you mean, building the standalone jar without uberjar ?
13:50	amalloy	kzar: not sure. maybe you actually have a class named B somewhere? i think (IFn)(byte 1) in java would be a compile error, not a run-time error, but i could be wrong
13:50	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: no "lein uberjar" followed by running the standalone JAR
13:50	gtrak	first arg in a list is evaluated as a function unless you quote
13:50	amalloy	&(^"B" (byte 1))
13:50	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Byte cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:50	gtrak	&'(byte 1)
13:50	sexpbot	⟹ (byte 1)
13:51	amalloy	gtrak: we know
13:51	gtrak	so what's (byte 1) mean otherwise?
13:51	kumarshantanu	&(^"[B" (byte 1))
13:51	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Byte cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:51	gtrak	confused
13:51	amalloy	&(byte 1)
13:51	sexpbot	⟹ 1
13:51	gtrak	hmm
13:51	zemariamm	kumarshantanu: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3677372/lein-jar-and-lein-uberjar-not-setting-the-main-class-properly
13:52	kzar	byte turns a number into a byte, useful sometimes when you need a byte for java interop
13:52	gtrak	ah, so having double parenthesis evaluates it again
13:52	kzar	gtrak: I need to turn my seq of numbers into a byte array so I have to apply byte and then call byte-array
13:52	kumarshantanu	gtrak: what are you trying to do?
13:52	amalloy	gtrak: not "evaluates it again"
13:52	amalloy	"after evaluating it, calls it as a function"
13:52	gtrak	evaluates it
13:53	gtrak	&(1)
13:53	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:54	amalloy	kzar: ##(into-array (map byte [1 2 3]))
13:54	sexpbot	⟹ #<Byte[] [Ljava.lang.Byte;@be9943>
13:54	clizzin_	if i want to apply a function to all the values in a map, is (zipmap (keys m) (fn (vals m)) the most idomatic/efficient way to go about doing this?
13:54	clizzin_	that's what i've been doing for a while, but it just occurred to me that perhaps there's a better way -- having to get the keys out seems kind of unnecessary.
13:54	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.contrib.generic.functors)
13:54	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/generic/functors__init.class or clojure/contrib/generic/functors.clj on classpath:
13:55	kzar	((byte-array (apply byte (range 100))))
13:55	kzar	,((byte-array (apply byte (range 100))))
13:55	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (21) passed to: core$byte
13:55	kzar	,((byte-array (map byte (range 100))))
13:55	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: [B cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
13:55	amalloy	&(use 'clojure.contrib.generic.functor)
13:55	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/generic/functor__init.class or clojure/contrib/generic/functor.clj on classpath:
13:55	kzar	there we go, B means Bytearray
13:55	amalloy	whatever. clizzin_, clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap does what you want
13:55	kzar	amalloy: Cool thanks, I'll do it like that
13:56	amalloy	kzar: [B means byte[]
13:56	zemariamm	kumarshantanu: I opened teh jar, I do have qrdecoder/core$_main.class
13:56	amalloy	i could tell you that if you hadn't said it was B
13:56	zemariamm	it should be it right ?
13:56	clizzin_	amalloy: thanks
13:56	Surgo	silly newbie macro question...I'm attempting to set a var of a name given as the macro parameters (at compile time), and later access it...but it seems when I run (def) in a macro, it doesn't make the var accessible non-locally (or at least when I try to resolve it it's not there).
13:57	amalloy	Surgo: it should work. make a paste?
13:57	Surgo	code example: http://pastebin.com/eCBHqv31 . Run with abcd, then I try resolving abcd after the macro runs...and nothing.
13:57	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: I think you should rather have core.class because it's supposed to be gen-class'ed (but not sure at the moment)
13:57	Surgo	(well, there is something, "Unable to resolve symbol" :P)
13:58	amalloy	Surgo: you want this var accessible at compile-time, or at runtime?
13:58	Surgo	compile-time
13:58	Surgo	it'll actually be gone by the time run-time comes around
14:00	zemariamm	kumarshantanu: by reading the docs I think you are absolutely right
14:00	amalloy	Surgo: it's somewhat tricky, because def is a special form that needs its argument as a literal
14:01	amalloy	(def fname) defines a var called fname, not one whose name is the contents of fname
14:01	zemariamm	kumarshantanu:oh shit, I had gen-class instead of :gen-class in my ns definition
14:01	Surgo	amalloy: yeah, that's what I want (the var being called fname)
14:01	amalloy	oh. really?
14:01	Surgo	its contents should just be (list)
14:01	amalloy	okay
14:01	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: the funny part about the ns macro is - if you mis-spell something in this macro it may not throw any error and still ignore it
14:02	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: so watch out for that too
14:02	zemariamm	:D
14:02	amalloy	but...your code doesn't look that way. why are you taking fname as a parameter
14:02	zemariamm	rebuilding :)
14:02	amalloy	if you want the name to always be the literal symbol/string "fname"
14:02	Surgo	oh, I see the confusion
14:03	Surgo	I want the name to be different, depending on what "fname" is -- it should just be called fname. Maybe this communication would be easier if I tried to state what I was trying to do :-P
14:03	amalloy	Surgo: i can see what you're trying to do, you just keep claiming you're trying to do something else :)
14:03	Surgo	I think that might have something to do with how little I know what I'm talking about
14:03	zemariamm	kumarshantanu: thanks so much, it finally rans, with another error, but a different one :)
14:04	zemariamm	runs*
14:04	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: \m/
14:04	Surgo	what I want...the var to be named based on the parameter given (fname), but whose contents is just (list). Am I still misunderstanding?
14:04	zemariamm	the error I get back is exactly this one: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4354293/jar-produced-with-lein-uberjar-fails-on-noclassdeffounderror , researchign it
14:04	amalloy	no, you've now stated what you meant all along
14:04	amalloy	hurrah!
14:05	Surgo	thank you
14:05	amalloy	so the way to do that is `(def ~fname (list))
14:05	Surgo	hopefully as I become less of a newbie to all of this I will become better at communicating
14:05	zemariamm	leinigen 1.4.0 bug ?
14:06	kumarshantanu	zemariamm: (1) lein clean (2) rm -rf lib (3) lein ubderjar
14:06	amalloy	but that is a little tricky, because it expands into code that defs, rather than doing the def itself; the def won't happen unless (mactest foo) is in code that is doing something at compile time already
14:06	Surgo	hmm...wouldn't that cause the code to be run at run-time?
14:06	kumarshantanu	s/ubderjar/uberjar/
14:06	sexpbot	<kumarshantanu> zemariamm: (1) lein clean (2) rm -rf lib (3) lein uberjar
14:06	zemariamm	going to try it
14:07	zemariamm	it works!!!!
14:07	zemariamm	I ended up adding :keep-non-project-classes true
14:07	amalloy	Surgo: you can't really do it otherwise, because at the time that mactest is itself compiled (not the call to mactest), it doesn't have the name of the var to def, and it needs a compile-time literal
14:07	zemariamm	to my project.clj
14:07	Surgo	it's not really clear to me what a (do `(def ~fname (list)) (do-other-stuff)) would do, actually
14:08	Surgo	amalloy: hrm, maybe there's another way to get to the same effect without needing a persistent var
14:08	amalloy	you might be able to do it by creating another macro that builds mactest-like macros that know what to def at compile-time, but that is getting pretty intricate
14:09	Surgo	what I'm trying to do is simply allow piecewise function composition using pattern matching (like ML), so what I figured was I'd define a macro that just stuffed all the piecewise definitions in a list named the same as the function (to guarantee uniqueness), then have a final macro that composed them into an actual (defn)
14:09	Surgo	no real reason to do this, just trying to learn clojure :)
14:10	amalloy	Surgo: (eval `(def ~fname (list))) would work for sure, if you ever get desperate enough to use eval
14:12	Surgo	brilliant! though if I could bother you to help me understand how that's different than a plain (def fname (list))?
14:13	Surgo	I mean, seems to me at first to just be the evaluation of fname
14:13	amalloy	Surgo: yep
14:13	amalloy	that is the only difference
14:13	Surgo	ah
14:14	amalloy	and because def doesn't evaluate its first argument, it is a necessary difference
14:14	Surgo	and def, being a special form, barfs at (dev (eval fname) (list))
14:14	Surgo	(just tried it)
14:14	chouser	Pop quiz!
14:14	Surgo	thank you very much, this has been quite informative and helpful
14:14	amalloy	(eval fname) probably wouldn't work anyway
14:14	amalloy	or i guess it would, i dunno
14:15	chouser	hm, wait a sec.
14:15	Surgo	now let's see if I can finish that macro array
14:15	amalloy	chouser: now that we've had time to prepare, is it still a pop quiz?
14:15	chouser	yes it is
14:15	chouser	the question is:
14:16	chouser	what clojure.core function or macro whose name starts with "with-" has nothing to do with dynamic scope?
14:16	amalloy	with-command-line-args?
14:16	amalloy	or whatever it's called
14:17	chouser	that is, it doesn't refer to binding or try/catch in its docstring or source
14:17	chouser	amalloy: I think that's in contrib somewhere
14:17	amalloy	oh, so it is
14:17	hiredman	the local vars thing?
14:17	chouser	that's dynamic scope
14:17	technomancy	with-meta
14:17	hiredman	maybe with-open, I always forget if that uses binding or let, must be let
14:17	hiredman	chouser: is it?
14:17	danlarkin	with-open uses try/finally
14:18	chouser	and uses try/finally to pop thread bindings
14:18	zemariamm	guys I'm out, thanks so much for the help :D
14:18	hiredman	chouser: are you sure?
14:19	hiredman	ah, I guess it does
14:19	hiredman	let+binding
14:20	amalloy	anyway, technomancy surely wins the prize for with-meta
14:21	hiredman	chouser: so why does having try/catch disqualify from "nothing to do with dynamic scope"
14:21	chouser	try/catch is dynamic scope
14:21	amalloy	hiredman: try/catch is how clojure gets dynamic scope, isn't it?
14:21	chouser	oh, missed it.
14:21	chouser	technomancy: right, with-meta
14:22	hiredman	amalloy: no
14:22	chouser	(defn foo [] (throw x)) (try (foo) (catch ...))
14:22	hiredman	chouser: ok, but try/finally?
14:22	chouser	throw x happens in the dynamic scope defined by try/catch
14:22	chouser	same thing with try/finally
14:23	amalloy	i think hiredman's point is the finally has no access to whatever was thrown
14:23	chouser	ah, interesting point.
14:23	hiredman	it also get's executed regardless of something being thrown
14:24	chouser	& (remove #(re-find #"binding\|try" (clojure.repl/source-fn %)) (filter #(re-find #"^with-" (str %)) (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
14:24	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl
14:24	chouser	aw
14:24	chouser	, (remove #(re-find #"binding\|try" (clojure.repl/source-fn %)) (filter #(re-find #"^with-" (str %)) (keys (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
14:24	clojurebot	java.lang.NullPointerException
14:24	chouser	:-P
14:24	hiredman	really, my point is, I should get points for with-open
14:24	chouser	heh
14:24	chouser	(inc technomancy)
14:24	Tordmor	Let's say I have a quoted form in a var like (def f '(+ 3 4)) how would I turn this into a function?
14:24	hiredman	the binding it creates are all lexical
14:25	sexpbot	⟹ 2
14:25	chouser	(inc hiredman)
14:25	sexpbot	⟹ 1
14:25	technomancy	I used tab-completion on slime; I don't know if that's cheating.
14:27	amalloy	(inc slime)
14:27	sexpbot	⟹ 1
14:27	Surgo	the clojure docs say you can't change the root binding of a var with set!; so, how would you change it? (it's kind of silly but it'd be nice if that was the next sentence in the docs)
14:27	amalloy	Surgo: ##(doc alter-var-root!)
14:27	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: alter-var-root! in this context
14:27	amalloy	Surgo: ##(doc alter-var-root)
14:27	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! alter-var-root is bad!
14:27	chouser	Surgo: you're generally not meant to
14:28	amalloy	sexpbot: stuff it
14:28	Tordmor	How would I build a clojure function at runtime?
14:29	Surgo	Tordmor: you can just (eval f), given your above example
14:30	amalloy	Tordmor: (fn [x] (eval `(let [~'x ~x] ~@myfn-code))), if you want to pass it x as an argument
14:30	gtrak	&(find-doc "alter-var-root")
14:30	sexpbot	⟹ ------------------------- clojure.core/alter-var-root ([v f & args]) Atomically alters the root binding of var v by applying f to its current value plus any args ------------------------- clojail.core/sandbox ([tester & {:keys [timeout namespace context jvm?], :o... http://gist.github.com/739467
14:33	gtrak	&(eval (list inc 1))
14:33	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! eval is bad!
14:33	gtrak	&(list inc 1)
14:33	sexpbot	⟹ (#<core$inc clojure.core$inc@16968c4> 1)
14:34	gtrak	does that work?
14:34	amalloy	gtrak: yes
14:34	gtrak	ok cool :-)
14:34	amalloy	but you have to be careful if you want a function that isn't in clojure.core like inc is
14:34	gtrak	how so?
14:34	amalloy	(eval `(inc 1)) is a fair bit safer
14:35	gtrak	b/c it figures out namespaces for you?
14:35	amalloy	gtrak: if you return (myfoo 10) and the caller hasn't :use'd myns, then myfoo will be an error when they run it
14:35	gtrak	&`inc
14:35	sexpbot	⟹ clojure.core/inc
14:35	gtrak	got it
14:36	amalloy	` resolves the namespaces in the context of building the list rather than executing it, as you have demonstrated
14:37	cky	Maybe it's just a personal style thing, but when there are no unquotes, I vastly prefer to use quote, not quasiquote.
14:37	cky	That way, when I read the code, I know that nothing in there is going to get evaluated.
14:37	cky	&'(inc 1)
14:37	cky	&`(inc 1)
14:37	sexpbot	⟹ (inc 1)
14:37	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/inc 1)
14:38	cky	amalloy: That makes more sense.
14:38	gtrak	cky: not sure I get what you mean
14:38	Surgo	This is strange...when I set up the var in the macro, using alter-var-root, to cons another list on, it gets altered appropriately within the macro, but when I resolve the var outside of the macro, it doesn't change. When I try accessing it in another macro, it is changed. Is there some scoping information I'm missing here?
14:39	cky	gtrak: amalloy has just explained why '(foo bar) is not the same as `(foo bar) in Clojure.
14:39	cky	gtrak: My background is in Scheme, where the two are no different at all.
14:40	Surgo	or...hmm. could it be that the binding is different because this is a 'pure' functional thing, and it still thinks that me in the REPL is using the old binding so it hasn't gotten rid of it yet
14:40	cky	&'(non-existent 1)
14:40	sexpbot	⟹ (non-existent 1)
14:41	cky	&`(non-existent 1)
14:41	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/non-existent 1)
14:41	cky	O_o
14:41	gtrak	so, it's late symbol resolution vs early?
14:41	gtrak	what's the issue?
14:41	amalloy	resolution at macro time, yes
14:41	fogus`	&'(clojure.core/non-existent 1)
14:41	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/non-existent 1)
14:42	gtrak	&'(random-symbol 1)
14:42	sexpbot	⟹ (random-symbol 1)
14:42	gtrak	&`(random-symbol 1)
14:42	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/random-symbol 1)
14:42	gtrak	huh?
14:43	gtrak	oh weird
14:43	gtrak	`(asdflasdf)
14:43	gtrak	&`(asdflasdf)
14:43	sexpbot	⟹ (clojure.core/asdflasdf)
14:43	gtrak	that's a little weird
14:46	fogus`	gtrak: What do you suspect would happen if you ran: (eval `(non-existent 1))?
14:46	chouser	gtrak: sexpbot must be evaluating our expressions in the clojure.core namespace
14:46	chouser	& ns
14:46	sexpbot	⟹ #<Namespace sandbox6362>
14:46	chouser	hm
14:47	gtrak	i would think it would just ignore it
14:47	fogus`	gtrak: wrong person. :-( sorry.
14:47	chouser	sexpbot must be reading our expressions in the clojure.core namespace
14:50	alpheus	Can anyone direct me to an example of destructuring with :strs?
14:51	chouser	& (let [x {"one" 1, "two" 2, "three" 3}, {:strs [one two three]} x] ['counting one two three])
14:51	sexpbot	⟹ [counting 1 2 3]
14:53	chouser	alpheus: ^^^
14:54	alpheus	oh, you don't quote the strings
15:02	alpheus	How would I represent a key that is a string containing a space?
15:05	Tordmor	alpheus: As a string?
15:08	ohpauleez	alpheus: You could string replace each space with an underscore, and keyword that string
15:08	ohpauleez	but it won't be reversible
15:08	alpheus	Yes, I'm trying to destructure a map having some keys that are strings with spaces.
15:08	ohpauleez	example "here is a_string" => :here_is_a_string => "here is a string"
15:09	ohpauleez	if you only need the first two, just do a string replace
15:09	alpheus	The map is externally defined, since it comes from a csv file that I'm loading.
15:10	ohpauleez	well, trim the string, then replace all spaces with underscores, then call keyword on it
15:11	alpheus	I can think of various ways to solve the problem, but I can't find a definition of what destructuring with :strs is actually supposed to do. The example that chouser gave above is the only example I've seen so far.
15:12	alpheus	I'm sure I've just missed it, not saying that the docs are deficient or something.
15:19	amalloy	alpheus: it's supposed to do exactly what chouser's example does...(ie, like :keys but with "foo" instead of :foo)
15:35	fogus`	:strs comes in handy when dealing with maps built from a JSON source
15:54	jweiss_	Can I extend a protocol to another protocol?
15:55	jweiss_	eg, if i have a protcol Raisable that has a interface with "raise", and i want to extend it to my protocol "Condition" so that every concrete condition can be "raised"?
15:55	nickik	not possible.
15:55	brehaut	jweiss_: i dont think you can [citation needed]
15:56	jweiss_	ok then can two protocols share the same fn?
15:56	jweiss_	i'm guessing now
15:56	jweiss_	not
15:56	brehaut	jweiss_: if namespaced yes
15:57	brehaut	foo/my-proto-fn and bar/my-proto-fn are different funs
15:57	brehaut	but otherwise no
15:57	jweiss_	no, what i've got here is that all Conditions are Raisable, but not all Raisables are Conditions.
15:58	jweiss_	so how do i specify the "raise" fn for all Conditions?
15:58	jweiss_	just have to have all their concrete types implement it i guess
16:21	amalloy	jweiss_: i don't think you want two protocols here, really, do you? protocols don't really have a hierarchy
16:22	amalloy	you want a raise protocol, and two interfaces Raisable and Condition:Raisable; then you can extend the raise protocol to the Raisable interface
16:30	clizzin_	what's a typical use case for constantly? it seems like a weird function to have...
16:30	dnolen_	,(interleave [1 2 3 4] (constantly 'foo))
16:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$constantly$fn__3551
16:31	pjstadig	when you think you want to do something like #(foo) you want constantly instead
16:31	hiredman	dnolen_: you are thinking of repeatedly
16:31	dnolen_	,(interleave [1 2 3 4] (constantly (fn [] 'foo)))
16:31	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$constantly$fn__3551
16:31	dnolen_	hiredman: yeah
16:31	dnolen_	(doc constantly)
16:31	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns a function that takes any number of arguments and returns x."
16:31	ohpauleez	when you want to use constant, but off of a function value
16:32	hiredman	constantly is useful for representing constants when you are dealing with higher order functions
16:32	ohpauleez	that's also a good way to phrase it
16:32	hiredman	update-in, swap!, send-off, send, etc
16:34	kzar	booya my step sequencer no longer crashes Java
16:34	duncanm	in slime/swank, isn't there a way to get the last result from the REPL?
16:34	duncanm	something like $1, or #1 ?
16:34	duncanm	%1 maybe?
16:35	ohpauleez	*1
16:35	ohpauleez	you can get the last three
16:35	duncanm	ohpauleez: yes!
16:35	ohpauleez	1 2 *3
16:35	duncanm	ohpauleez: it was you who told me about this last time ;-)
16:35	ohpauleez	:)
16:35	ohpauleez	duncanm: I'm glad I can help
16:35	ohpauleez	super useful
16:36	duncanm	ohpauleez: indeed
17:08	clizzin	ohpauleez, hiredman: re constantly, i get the general idea of wanting to save the output of a higher-order function, but why not just bind that in a var? the code i'm looking at takes a seq or vector foo and binds foo-fn to (constantly foo). i feel like there's a performance improvement here but am not sure why/how.
17:09	amalloy	clizzin: you don't get the idea; you're upside-down
17:10	amalloy	say you want to call a library function asks you to pass it a function; it's going to call that function ten times with different arguments to decide how to populate a list it gives you
17:11	amalloy	but your program is really simple and you want the list to just be full of zeros. so you call (libfn (constantly 0))
17:12	amalloy	making more sense now?
17:12	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
17:16	clizzin	amalloy: i see. okay, i get both that case and the case in the code i'm reading now. awesome. thanks!
17:18	ohpauleez	clizzin: Also, think about a framework, that needs to always start with a default reply
17:19	ohpauleez	it's easy to make that a function call, and then redefine that function call in other namespaces or what-have you
17:19	ohpauleez	making stubbing easier, while keeping the calling and composition of functions of the framework intact
17:23	Nikelandjelo	Which variant is correct (defn tst [^long x] ... ) or (defn tst [^:long x] ...) ?
17:24	amalloy	Nikelandjelo: the first
17:24	amalloy	(or maybe neither? i don't think clojure functions can accept primitive args before 1.3)
17:26	ohpauleez	amalloy Nikelandjelo: right, before 1.3, you could only cast in a let and use the primitive there
17:26	ohpauleez	otherwise, you could only type hint (objects) for java purposes
17:27	Nikelandjelo	Thanks. I still use 1.2 I should switch to 1.3 :)
17:27	Nikelandjelo	I read, 1.3 version is slower than 1.2 Is it still actual?
17:28	ohpauleez	Nikelandjelo: There were some speed regressions for certain tasks in 1.3. When those get discovered, they get fixed rather quickly
17:28	ohpauleez	I have never personally hit any of them, and in fact have been able to write pretty fast 1.3 stuff
17:40	edw	`choose': is this a standard clojure procedure?
17:41	amalloy	edw: i choose things all the time. what do you want "choose" to do?
17:41	edw	I'm looking at some sample code, and choose is undefined.
17:41	amalloy	&(doc choose)
17:41	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: choose in this context
17:41	jcromartie	critique please! (inspired by Compojure's route/clout mechanism) https://gist.github.com/c9522a2f56722f2a0d8e
17:42	ohpauleez	it's in contrib
17:42	ohpauleez	and in incanter
17:42	amalloy	edw: link it? it's probably in their use/require
17:42	ohpauleez	http://clojuredocs.org/clojure_contrib/clojure.contrib.probabilities.finite-distributions/choose
17:43	edw	Ah. Thanks. I searched through core but not contrib: finding the contrib doc page is sometimes surprisingly difficult.
17:43	jcromartie	all the "normalize" is a little clunky
17:43	jcromartie	I could clean that up
17:43	amalloy	edw: yes, google helpfully provides old-old links to wrong places. you could try clojuredocs.org, which is usually pretty good
17:43	ohpauleez	yes, I have just defaulted to ClojureDocs, and if I refuse to use a browser, I usually just hit the API with python
17:50	jcromartie	what is the leiningen project/script/ directory for?
17:50	ohpauleez	I use it for one off scripts I need. Like my repl-init script
17:51	ohpauleez	or provisioning scripts, for example
17:51	jcromartie	provisioning?
17:51	ohpauleez	like for kicking off builds or pushing something to a staging server
17:52	ohpauleez	I'm sure I abuse it, but that's what I put in there
17:54	jcromartie	heh, I don't think there's a defined use
17:54	jcromartie	seems handy though
17:54	jcromartie	like for usage examples, perhaps
18:03	clizzin	jesus, quora is devastatingly slow
18:05	amalloy	am i guaranteed that (= (byte 1) 1), or may that stop being true, eg as part of the auto-promotion changes in 1.3?
18:06	clizzin	^ whoops, wrong room =(
18:08	ohpauleez	amalloy: I think you'll be ok
18:09	ohpauleez	do not quote me on that, I haven't seen the latest work that has gone into that
18:24	dnolen_	amalloy: you will need to use == in 1.3.0 to avoid things like (= 1M 1) ; false, and (= 1.0 1) ; false
18:27	amalloy	dnolen_: thanks
18:33	joegallo	finished up 102, will merge into qa tomorrow, heading out.
18:33	joegallo	wrong channel, I'm a moron.
19:36	amalloy	can someone look at http://is.gd/iHwv0 in paredit for me? mine refuses to delete anything in the last defn because of unbalanced " characters, but (a) they're balanced, and (b) it thought they were balanced enough to enter paredit mode
19:51	devinus	just curious, but why can't clojure do TCO the way scala does it?
19:57	chouser	devinus: it could, but 'recur' is nicely explict -- if you think you have written something tail-recursive when you haven't, 'recur' will give you an error
19:57	amalloy	devinus: my quick search indicates that how scala does it is "barely"
19:57	amalloy	though personally i like chouser's reason
19:57	devinus	chouser: oh nice
19:58	chouser	if you think you've written something tail-recursive with a plain function call, but you haven't, you won't know until you blow the stack at runtime
19:58	amalloy	chouser: or you ask chouser about it :)
19:58	chouser	as far as I know, Scala only does automatic tail recursion optimisation in cases where 'recur' would work in clojure
19:59	gtrak	yea... if you're coming from static languages it feels worth it to know what's going to happen, i think people from scheme think it's less elegant
20:00	gtrak	at least that's how I think of it
20:00	gtrak	no reason to have any doubt whether it'll tail-recur or not, the compiler will tell you
20:00	gtrak	it's not like you don't have to think about it when you're writing scheme
20:01	chouser	right
20:02	chouser	and Clojure can't give full TCO (in mutual recursion cases etc.) while keeping Java calling conventions, so you'd have to know that caveat too.
20:02	gtrak	hmm, how do you do that anyway?
20:02	brehaut	gtrak: scheme does have a difference in that everything is rewritten to continuations though right?
20:02	gtrak	actually I don't know
20:03	gtrak	I took a course on it a long time ago, and now I'm learning clojure :-)
20:03	hiredman	brehaut: doesnn't have to be, that is just a technique for implementing scheme
20:03	brehaut	gtrak: it was definately the case with steele's original scheme. i dont know if it still holds
20:04	brehaut	hiredman: cheers
20:13	Adamant	brehaut: only if CPS is used
20:14	brehaut	Adamant: can you clarify for me; do you mean for the scheme implementation or the scheme users program?
20:14	Adamant	implementation
20:14	Adamant	at the user level, everything is not continuations
20:14	brehaut	yes thats what i thought
20:14	Adamant	although you can use CPS at user level if you want
20:15	Adamant	having explict recur is definitely ugly for people used to Scheme, like me
20:16	Adamant	sadly adding TCO to the JVM is not a current priority
20:16	Adamant	they're busy with the dynamic support it seems
20:17	brehaut	real? i thought they were busy painting the bike shed
20:18	Adamant	brehaut: I was whining on here about that and got asked to put my money where my mouth was by Rich
20:18	brehaut	fair nuff :)
20:18	Adamant	I tried, but the JVM folks aren't interested at the current juncture
20:18	Adamant	they are interested though
20:18	gtrak	apparently the apple jvm had TCO
20:19	gtrak	but now it's hosed?
20:19	Adamant	yeah, Apple now hates Java
20:19	Adamant	of course Apples hates everything not Apple
20:19	gtrak	still, their TCO must not be platform specific, right?
20:20	Adamant	gtrak: no idea, and the basic thing is the guys working on extended the JVM don't want the trouble right now
20:20	Adamant	they're loaded to the gills with dynamic support
20:20	gtrak	ah
20:20	Adamant	TCO is one other thing to add they don't have time for, even if other people do most of the coding
20:23	Adamant	it will definitely have an effect on stack walking stuff, which for one thing lots of the security mechanisms do
20:28	tomoj	I haven't found myself missing TCO
20:34	brehaut	tomoj: its incredibly rare that i even have to bust out a recur
20:36	joshua__	(:require ((net.cgrand.enlive-html :as html)
20:36	joshua__	(compojure.route :as route))))
20:36	joshua__	whats wrong with that?
20:37	brehaut	joshua__: you arent quoting your symbols?
20:37	brehaut	hmm no
20:38	joshua__	will give more info in a second..
20:39	tomoj	you don't need to quote there
20:39	joshua__	I'm trying to do something like: http://pastebin.com/SrwSpSyx with only one :require
20:39	brehaut	joshua__: try (:require [net.cgrand.enlive-html :as html] [compojure.route :as route])
20:39	brehaut	(asuming this is in a ns form)
20:43	gertalot	hey everyone! I'm trying to figure out a way to do something similar to prewalk-replace or postwalk-replace, that only changes at most a single element (not every element like these functions)
20:43	gertalot	and I'm stuck (or I wouldn't bother you) :)
20:44	gertalot	or a clojure.core/replace that only replaces the first occurrence of something that's replaceable
20:45	clizzin	how can i pass a static java function as an argument to map? i just tried (map java.lang.Math/log foo), but it looks like clojure tries to look for a static field instead of a method. any way to do this without just using an anonymous function?
20:46	notsonerdysunny	Hello everybody I required clojure.contrib.generic.math-operations as gm and now I want to bind the default / with gm// but it is telling me that the gm// is not a correct token .. so how can I / with gm// ?
20:47	scgilardi	clizzin: afaik there isn't. using an anonymous function is a good choice.
20:47	clizzin	thanks scgilardi
20:54	scgilardi	notsonerdysunny: I haven't done what you're trying to do, but does the qsym macro (http://richhickey.github.com/clojure-contrib/generic.arithmetic-api.html) help?
20:55	joshua__	brehaut: thanks that worked (would have told you sooner but I had to close the webserver, using compojure without gae this time and not sure how to do interactive development just yet)
20:55	brehaut	joshua__: no problem
20:58	notsonerdysunny	thanks scgilardi
20:58	notsonerdysunny	that worked
20:58	scgilardi	cool
21:00	brehaut	joshua__: i use moustache for my routing and for everything other than redefining routes holding the repl open and using (use :reload my-ns.foo) is sufficient to do interactive development
21:00	brehaut	joshua__ ive got something messed up though which means if i change my routes i have to quit the repl because it breaks something on the jetty server and ive been too lazy to fix it
21:02	brehaut	joshua__: the other thing to consider is looking at lazytest ( https://github.com/stuartsierra/lazytest ) im pretty sure it does a simple watch on your clj files and reloads them when they change and reruns any appropriate tests
21:12	joshua__	brehaut: I found a simple way to do it, though I don't like it as it always throws an exception. I can wrap my handler in a (var hanlder) when passing it to jetty. Hopefully I'll find a way that doesn't cause an exception when you compile, despite working. Reading: http://groups.google.com/group/compojure/browse_thread/thread/5606760b86cfd49c
21:15	joshua__	I think I've got a solution to the exception thrown despite it working.. how do I catch exceptions in clojure?
21:26	brehaut	joshua__: you might be surprised to discover that you use try catch http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special%20Forms--(try%20expr%20catch-clause%20finally-clause?)
21:28	joshua__	brehaut: Just got it working not ten seconds ago. You can see my solution here: http://pastebin.com/Bv0Y2DVF
21:29	joshua__	brehaut: better doc of how to use the try catch is what slowed me down the most, but this helped: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Clojure_Programming/Concepts when I searched it for examples of try
21:30	notsonerdysunny	~(clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic/* (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 10 20)
21:30	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
21:30	notsonerdysunny	(struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 2 1))
21:31	notsonerdysunny	~(clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic/* (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 10 20) (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 2 1))
21:31	clojurebot	compiling clojure is rarely necessary to do yourself.
21:31	notsonerdysunny	~(clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic/* (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 10 20) (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 2 1))
21:31	clojurebot	pcl → clojure is http://blog.thinkrelevance.com/2008/09/16/pcl-clojure
21:32	notsonerdysunny	the s-expression (clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic/* (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 10 20) (struct clojure.contrib.complex-numbers/complex-struct 2 1)) gives me the exception
21:33	notsonerdysunny	No method in multimethod '*' for dispatch value: [clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap clojure.lang.PersistentStructMap]
21:33	notsonerdysunny	[Thrown class java.lang.IllegalArgumentException]
21:33	notsonerdysunny	can anybody help me understand what is happening here?
21:51	amalloy	notsonerdysunny: c.c.g.a doesn't support the types in c.c.c-n, it just leaves space for you to add your own implementation
21:53	amalloy	&(require 'clojure.contrib.generic.arithmetic :as 'math)
21:53	sexpbot	java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate clojure/contrib/generic/arithmetic__init.class or clojure/contrib/generic/arithmetic.clj on classpath:
21:58	notsonerdysunny	thanks amalloy ..
22:17	notsonerdysunny	I am defining a protocol which defines the functions +,-,,/ .. so I am excluding those symbols when I do :refer-clojure but I would like to give an alias to say something like c+ c- c and c/ how can I do this?
22:25	amalloy	(:require clojure.core :as c) should do it
22:28	amalloy	okay, i was close. this works: (ns foo (:require [clojure.core :as c]))
22:31	defn	yeah i always forget when to wrap in []
22:32	amalloy	notsonerdysunny: ^^
22:34	tomoj	notsonerdysunny: use :rename instead of :exclude?
23:03	notsonerdysunny	thanks tomoj ..
23:03	notsonerdysunny	that did the trick
23:05	amalloy	&(let [[a & [b & c]] [1 2 3 4]] [a b c])
23:05	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 (3 4)]
23:15	Guest28208	do you ever really need to call "apply"?
23:15	amalloy	Guest28208: yes
23:15	Guest28208	like when?
23:16	cky	Guest28208: When you need to take the arguments from a list.
23:16	amalloy	in general: when you get a list from some outside source that had no choice but to give you a list, and need to treat them as separate arguments to a function
23:17	Guest28208	ok. makes sense
23:17	Guest28208	thx amalloyand cky
23:17	amalloy	eg, (concat [1 2] [3 4]) should clearly return [1 2 3 4], but what if someone passes you the vector [[1 2] [3 4]]
23:17	joshua__	Do you still serve files in compojure with serve-file?
23:18	joshua__	nervermind
23:20	auser	how do you go over a string, character by character?
23:21	amalloy	auser: strings are seqs of chars, so map et all work
23:21	auser	ah, cool
23:21	auser	thx
23:21	amalloy	you probably have to call (seq) on it first
23:21	hippiehunter	does anyone else ever have any trouble with slime after disconnecting/reconnecting swank? Ive reconnected but it just keeps saying "connection closed" whenever i try to do anything slime related
23:28	amalloy	i can never quite remember how to use :or map destructuring
23:29	amalloy	anyone have a pointer for me?
23:30	Raynes	&(let [{:keys [x y] :or {y 2}} {:x 3}] (+ x y))
23:30	sexpbot	⟹ 5
23:30	amalloy	thanks. i usually try :or {:y 2}
23:30	amalloy	so far it hasn't worked, but i'm still hoping
23:32	tomoj	&(let [{:keys [x y] :as opts :or {x 1}} {:y 2}] [x y opts]) ; seem funny?
23:32	sexpbot	⟹ [1 2 {:y 2}]
23:33	tomoj	guess not
23:33	hippiehunter	raynes: do you have that response bound to a key? I think thats the single most frequent question ive seen in here, and you answer it everytime.