#clojure – 2010-12-09

2010-12-09

00:14	auser	hola
00:19	technomancy	wow, this is kind of embarassing: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/4b9a0d4da8c36c09
00:23	technomancy	scripts are referencing all kinds of files that don't exist; they won't even launch on machines with less than 3GB of ram; they assume you've got the Mac version of yourkit installed in a specific location. eep.
00:25	technomancy	the readme has twelve lines (four relevant) about Clojure followed by tons of stuff about asm
00:25	defn	technomancy: that's why I was suggesting hamster
00:25	defn	https://github.com/harukizaemon/hamster
00:26	technomancy	oh, I see. cool
00:27	technomancy	even with that, you want alter semantics though, which I don't see cloby providing
00:27	technomancy	I guess ref-set! semantics is better than nothing
00:28	dnolen	technomancy: debatable. It's kinda slow. You're slowing down your mutable code. Might as well just live on the edge.
00:33	defn	how so? (are you slowing down your mutable code?)
00:33	defn	@dnolen
00:35	defn	technomancy: is there any reason to assume alter semantics couldn't be added?
00:37	technomancy	defn: not at all; I implemented them in clojure-gem
00:37	technomancy	it's a bitmore awkward without first-class functions, but it's easy to do
01:24	btw0	If string slicing using "subs" cannot have negative args, how can i get the specified lenth of a substring at the end of a string?
01:24	technomancy	I think I submitted a patch to make subs accept a negative argument
01:25	technomancy	hrm; maybe not. I guess I just proposed it.
01:27	btw0	cool, but is there an elegant way to achive that for now?
01:44	amalloy	&(let [s "long string"] (subs s (- (count s) 3)))
01:44	sexpbot	⟹ "ing"
01:44	amalloy	not exactly elegant, but not terrible
01:44	amalloy	btw0: ^^
01:50	btw0	thanks, i've also found "tail" in clojure.contrib.string does this too
01:52	hiredman	,(doc partition-all)
01:52	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists like partition, but may include partitions with fewer than n items at the end."
01:54	auser	has anyone here ever use RMI or some other messaging in clojure?
02:01	defn	i always forget about subs
02:02	defn	I think in general the partition fns have been the most all-around useful for me.
02:02	natto	hi, is anyone familiar with the error "error in process filter; Wrong type argument" in emacs+slime?
02:03	natto	this is mentioned in github and SO, which basically say "please use the ELPA version", which I do, and still can't resolve it
02:04	natto	i.e. where you'd expect the backtrace in emacs, the error appears and hangs
02:05	technomancy	natto: maybe you have the other version of slime still installed alongside it?
02:07	natto	i was using the boinkor.net version, but now I installed slime via ELPA, and my .emacs knows nothing of the boinkor version
02:07	natto	so there is no "slime" appearance in my .emacs
02:07	technomancy	no version from apt-get or anything either?
02:08	natto	nope, not there
02:09	technomancy	hmm; I haven't seen that. maybe M-x toggle-debug-on-error and send the stacktrace to the swank-clojure mailing list?
02:09	defn	how many people are actually doing web development with clojure?
02:10	natto	btw technomancy, I assume you're aware that when the ELPA slime prompts to install clojure, it gives an error because repo.technomancy.us isn't giving jars?
02:10	technomancy	natto: yes, swank-clojure from elpa has been deprecated for quite some time now.
02:10	defn	let me rephrase that because it's somewhat rhetorical: what is preventing more people from doing web development in clojure? where are some good places to look to in philosophy that are more in alignment with the style of language?
02:11	natto	i see...
02:12	defn	err, some good places to look where the the underpinnings of the design rely on something which resembles clojure
02:12	technomancy	natto: all you need on the elisp side is slime and slime-repl
02:12	technomancy	sounds like it's time for another blog post
02:13	natto	so the "recommended way" right now is to launch a swank server externally then do slime-connect?
02:13	natto	sorry i'm missing something
02:13	defn	technomancy: you did a lot of ruby, (maybe still do?) do you have any ideas on the whole rails story and how one can translate it without making a mess into clojure?
02:13	defn	s/into/in
02:13	sexpbot	<defn> technomancy: you did a lot of ruby, (maybe still do?) do you have any ideas on the whole rails story and how one can translate it without making a mess in clojure?
02:14	natto	and yes a blog post will be much appreciated -- there are all sorts of different guides out there, all within the last 9 months, all leading to different results
02:14	technomancy	natto: that's right, though there's a little lib called durendal that combines the two steps
02:14	technomancy	defn: I'm not sure. I haven't really done frontend web work since 06 or so.
02:15	defn	technomancy: what is your opinion on a "web development" story for clojure?
02:15	defn	Does it make sense? Is it a square peg in a round hole?
02:15	technomancy	defn: on the whole I'm really glad clojure seems to be resisting the monolithic framework approach of rails
02:15	natto	ok, well i'll be happy as long as i can just recover my old and trusty slime->clojure repl at this point (many hairs pulled out).
02:15	technomancy	even if it's more work up-front to piece things together, you end up with a much more coherent result
02:15	defn	technomancy: I agree, actually -- but there is a trade off
02:16	defn	more work up-front is sort of contrary to what seems to be so prevalent in the community: a desire for adoption
02:16	natto	ok so, there's a bucket of tricks for emacs, and the bucket of tricks includes setting up slime+clojure?
02:16	technomancy	defn: true, but it's much easier to achieve something cohesive from composable libraries than to try to go the other direction
02:17	technomancy	natto: tl;dr: lein swank in a shell, then M-x slime-connect in Emacs
02:17	technomancy	once you've got that working you can try durendal which may be a bit more convenient, but don't sweat it up front
02:18	defn	technomancy: optimized for developer happiness, and convention over configuration
02:18	defn	in the case of the former I believe we're halfway there. in the case of the latter I think we're behind the curve
02:20	natto	so i've been able to do slime-connect to a swank server (so i'm opening another process aside emacs) since i got slime. the backtrace still hangs emacs though
02:21	technomancy	natto: clojure 1.3?
02:22	natto	1.2, after discovering 1.3 doesn't work
02:22	natto	wait... no, lein swank uses 1.3 sorry.
02:22	natto	let me retry
02:22	technomancy	there are definitely unresolved issues with 1.3 =\
02:23	natto	yes i discovered there was no print-doc after much head scratching
02:24	natto	(all the blog posts about setting up that pull from rhickey's github will lead to these errors!)
02:27	natto	ok lein's swank is 1.3.0 (should be pulling from github). clojure is 1.2.0
02:27	technomancy	subs with negative offset: http://dev.clojure.org/jira/browse/CLJ-688
02:28	technomancy	natto: that's what you want; 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT of swank
02:28	technomancy	so how about calling into with a string as its first arg?
02:29	technomancy	seems like if seq of a string returns a seq of chars, you should be able to reverse that operation with into
02:31	natto	no dice.
02:31	natto	just to confirm: swank=1.3.0-SNAPSHOT, clojure-1.2.0.jar, slime, slime-repl, clojure-mode all from ELPA
02:31	natto	that's the bare setup
02:32	technomancy	what Emacs version?
02:32	natto	23.2, from PPA
02:32	natto	launch lein's swank-clojure, in emacs, slime-connect, all defaults. type a<return>, expect stack trace, get hang
02:33	natto	GNU Emacs 23.2.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.21.6) of 2010-09-01 on americium, modified by Debian
02:33	technomancy	could try emacs -Q; manually M-x eval-buffer in ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-xxxx/slime.el just to rule out the possibily of mix-up on the elisp side.
02:36	natto	so 1. i get Versions differ: ... 20100404 (swank).; continue. swank server: Error reading swank message
02:37	natto	2 is swank server error. there's no 3rd point
02:40	technomancy	sorry, not sure what's going on there =\ try the swank-clojure mailing list I guess
02:45	natto	ah. got it. it's autopair
02:45	technomancy	...?!
02:46	natto	i'm not sure why i got a hang in the last emacs -Q
02:46	technomancy	that's a serious bug if autopair affecting the connection to swank
02:47	natto	actually no i didn't. i had to load more than slime.el to get a repl
02:47	natto	this is a different error from the one i was getting when i just ran M-x slime
02:47	technomancy	time to ditch it and grab paredit
02:47	natto	but (autopair-global-mode) causes hang in repl from slime-connect
02:48	natto	autopair's for electric "'({[
02:48	natto	can't have everything :-/
02:48	natto	but, i have a stacktrace now. so happy! thanks!
02:49	natto	thanks very much
02:49	technomancy	sure. better report a bug with autopair though.
02:49	natto	ok
02:57	defn	autopair?! paredit!
02:58	natto	do you use electric quotes?
02:59	natto	i installed autopair on top of paredit for that
02:59	technomancy	that's redundant
03:00	natto	it is, but js2-mode provides its own quote matching, so autopair falls back to paredit in that mode
03:00	natto	but otherwise -- do you use something for electric quotes?
03:02	technomancy	paredit does electric quotes
03:10	natto	there are some behaviors in autopair i was more happy with. playing around it looks like paredit changes the default way you delete parens?
03:10	Derander	it seems to
03:11	defn	haml and sass have indentation rules that allow you to forego parens, why not leverage that?
03:11	natto	you can probably configure one to behave like the other, but vanilla autopair behavior is quite nice imo (aside of crashing the repl)
03:12	Derander	defn: how would you do haml w/o parens in clojure?
03:12	Derander	oh wait, what was that other html gen library?
03:13	defn	hiccup?
03:13	Derander	yeah
03:13	Derander	I think hiccup is closer to the spirit of haml than clj-haml
03:13	defn	hm, I disagree
03:13	defn	try to get your designer to use hiccup
03:13	defn	clj-haml is clojure,
03:14	defn	closer*
03:14	defn	haml is still a stretch, but at least they'll use it
03:14	Derander	I don't look at it as a "for designers" thing
03:14	Derander	I see it as a power tool for me
03:14	defn	yeah, it just seems to turn out that most of the people who do most of the templating and view-wrangling on my projects do PSDs, followed by haml
03:14	Derander	and aren't they basically the same thing except clj-haml uses calls to h= in favor of nested vectors?
03:15	defn	Derander: again, explain that to your designers
03:15	Derander	seriously, they look basically the same except one has less line noise
03:16	defn	they care more about aesthetics
03:16	defn	nature of the breed
03:17	Derander	(html [:div#header [:h1 "hello!"]]) vs (h= :html (h= :div#header (h= :span "hello!")))
03:18	Derander	we're arguing something subjective, but to me the former is nicer looking
03:18	defn	oh, there i tend to agree
03:19	defn	but what im saying is, neither is "haml"
03:19	Derander	right
03:19	defn	which is what i need
03:19	defn	s/need/want
03:19	sexpbot	<defn> which is what i want
03:19	hiredman	if you use enlive your designers can just write html and you can use css selectors to inject content
03:19	Derander	it'd be pretty simple to parse %h1 to [:h1
03:19	Derander	haml turns into nice sexps I'd imagine
03:19	defn	hiredman: that adds to the dev load, though
03:20	defn	hiredman: i mean, i've considered enlive, but i don't think i'd use it as my primary templating solution
03:20	Derander	I like a combination of haml and enlive
03:20	Derander	they each have their perks
03:20	Derander	when I work in ruby I use haml and erb depending on the situation
03:21	defn	i basically never use .erb unless it's a page full of script tags, like google analytics partials
03:21	Derander	I use erb for static content
03:21	Derander	well
03:21	Derander	text heavy content w/ lots of tags in the middle of it
03:22	Derander	"Hello we are <strong>Company name</strong> and we make <a href = "...">product</a>" reads better to me
03:22	defn	my sense is this: if we had a way to do something similar to Rails without it being Rails (very modular, not a cathedral)
03:22	defn	we'd have a better "web dev" story for clojure
03:22	Derander	right now ring is basically rack, right?
03:23	Derander	I haven't worked with ring in any real sense
03:23	defn	right
03:23	Derander	rails is basically some nice helpers on top of rack nowdays
03:23	defn	many nice helpers
03:23	defn	it's huge, but it turns out a lot of it is necessary
03:23	Derander	clojureql fills the orm gap kind of
03:23	Derander	need something for migrations
03:23	defn	lots of error wrangling, lots of model niceties
03:23	Derander	for errors
03:24	Derander	yeah
03:24	defn	yeah clojureql is close, but still cumbersome
03:24	defn	people need the same damn experience they have when they boot up a rails app
03:24	Derander	I think rails wins in terms of view helper libraries mostly
03:24	Derander	can implement the backend stuff very efficiently in clojure
03:24	bobo_	view helper libraries?
03:24	Derander	all of the fancy link routing, inflection stuff, ajax helpers
03:25	bobo_	(i dont know rails)
03:25	Derander	form helpers
03:25	bobo_	ah you mean so you can do ajax stuff without knowing javascript?
03:25	Derander	kind of
03:25	Derander	you can do it to a point
03:25	Derander	the original goal that rails had was to abstract away javascript
03:25	bobo_	predefined components, or something like that?
03:25	Derander	that went out of vogue w/ rails 3
03:26	defn	yes the routing is nice, arel is nice, generators are nice, the built-in helpers/utilities are nice, the model agnosticism is nice, the way things just map up as long as you name them correctly is nice
03:26	Derander	<% form_for @comment do \|f\| %> ... is how you start a form tag in rails for a comment object
03:26	defn	ewwww
03:26	defn	use formtastic!
03:26	Derander	you could drop in <% remote_form_for @comment do \|f\| %> and have it automagically be ajaxified
03:26	Derander	defn: talking vanilla rails
03:26	defn	<% semantic_remote_form_for
03:26	defn	ah, sure
03:26	Derander	and now it's form_for ... :remote => true anyways
03:26	defn	nod
03:27	bobo_	personaly you lost me at <%, i hate that. but i agree that something like it is needed for the masses
03:27	defn	bobo_: i hate it too
03:27	Derander	bobo_: rails < 2 would spam generated prototype.js stuff
03:27	bobo_	enlive changed my view of web development
03:27	Derander	bobo_: rails 3 will stick data-attributes in and give you unobtrusive js to use
03:27	defn	bobo_: that's why i use haml. the same thing looks like: = remote_form_for ...
03:27	bobo_	and i learned some jquery, and now i dont want any crappy components
03:27	Derander	bobo_: yeah, rails 3 is really nice w/ jquery now
03:28	bobo_	but i do understand that it is needed
03:28	Derander	it's officially "js framework agnostic"
03:28	Derander	not sure to what extent is true
03:28	defn	i dont get the fucking prototype.js default
03:28	defn	wtf?
03:28	Derander	it was the best thing when rails came out
03:28	defn	who uses that garbage?
03:28	defn	yes, 4 years ago
03:28	defn	jQuery has been the du jour for at least a year
03:28	Derander	rails 3 has been in dev for like two years
03:29	Derander	but yeah
03:29	Derander	there is no default anymore
03:29	Derander	you can use whatever you want
03:29	defn	nod
03:29	defn	i dont know what the answer is honestly, im just ranting
03:29	Derander	and there has been a jquery.rails drop in for a very long time
03:29	Derander	that would redefine helpers/provide js as a complete replacement for prototype
03:29	defn	im just doing a lot of work in rails lately and find the way rails behaves to be what one should expect in any other framework
03:30	Derander	usually, yeah
03:30	defn	otherwise it has more pain than it's worth
03:30	defn	shops aren't going to switch unless they have that work-alike feeling
03:31	defn	copy and paste haml templates, convert a rails app to clojure with a single command, etc.
03:31	defn	that sort of thing needs to happen for webdev adoption
03:31	Derander	not sure to what extent that is true
03:31	Derander	people switched to rails from php/asp
03:31	Derander	and that was a sea change
03:32	defn	i've worked with some prominent rails consulting firms and there is little interest in clojure
03:32	Derander	I'd like to think that ruby programmers are fairly open minded in general. you have to keep up with a lot of new libraries to be cutting edge
03:32	Derander	mm
03:32	Derander	I haven't
03:32	Derander	so I don't know
03:32	defn	when i try to explain the webdev "story", it's fragmented
03:32	defn	it doesn't make any sense
03:32	defn	too many steps. too many hurdles. too many new things to consider. too much choice.
03:32	defn	they just want a goddamn framework.
03:33	Derander	rails is getting that way too, lately, but the people who are doing it know how to navigate it
03:33	defn	ive spent the better part of two months getting "back in the saddle" on rails. i was off in another land for ~3 years
03:33	Derander	getting started now you have your choice of 3 templating languages, 4 auth solutions, 2-3 testing solutions, umpteen trillion sub-testing-libraries, 3 or 4 major orms
03:33	Derander	and that's just major components
03:33	defn	Derander: yes, but now enumerate those in clojure
03:34	Derander	if you want to do twitter, facebook, csv, xml, html parsing, etc.
03:34	Derander	hah, I have no idea
03:34	Derander	I don't know clojure libraries.
03:34	defn	/you don't know what you don't know/
03:34	defn	this is the problem.
03:35	defn	It's not that there is a lack of maturity. It's that there is a lack of presentation.
03:36	defn	Here is an example of rails-related documentation: http://mongoid.org/
03:36	Derander	right
03:36	defn	Nothing like that exists in the clojure community.
03:37	defn	So the libraries look brittle and iffy.
03:37	Derander	mongoid is a slick piece of software too
03:37	Derander	on the other hand, nothing like http://clojuredocs.org/ exists in the rails community :-)
03:37	defn	sure it does :)
03:38	Derander	http://railsapi.com/ ?
03:38	defn	it's called google, because ruby/rails was born in the heat of "blogs"
03:38	Derander	hah
03:38	defn	everyone contributed, it's just indexed elsewhere :)
03:38	Derander	developer tools for clojure are massively superior
03:38	Derander	emacs/slime is just good
03:38	Derander	but that's just lisp in general
03:39	defn	yeah there's no equivalent in ruby which sucks so bad
03:39	defn	it's just sad everytime i'm reminded of it
03:39	Derander	it feels like it should be possible to do
03:39	defn	/some/ of it is possible to do.
03:39	defn	you could build a source code traversing thing-a-mabob
03:40	defn	so in swank you so M-., maybe you add something like that to comint ruby
03:40	Derander	I think you could get pretty close w/ some mishmash of static analysis, drb and irb
03:40	defn	s/so/do
03:40	sexpbot	<defn> do in swank you do M-., maybe you add domething like that to comint ruby
03:40	defn	drb is a graveyard
03:40	defn	probably better to use something else
03:41	Derander	I don't mean drb itself
03:41	Derander	the concept
03:41	defn	ah sure
03:41	Derander	like a ruby method server
03:41	Derander	ala swank
03:41	Derander	rubymine is getting damn good at ruby code analysis
03:41	defn	everyone i work with derides rubymine
03:41	Derander	have you tried it?
03:41	defn	i own a copy, yes
03:41	Derander	mm
03:41	Derander	I couldn't use it for primary dev
03:41	defn	the refactoring tools are pretty great
03:41	Derander	right
03:41	defn	tcrayford has a wonderful refactoring project for clojure
03:42	Derander	it's getting good at understanding semantics and doing debugging and stuff
03:42	defn	i wish there was more attention paid to it
03:42	Derander	yeah, I've been meaning to install that for awhile
03:42	defn	do it. just try it out. you will feel like you're wathing magic.
03:42	defn	s/wathing/watching
03:42	sexpbot	<defn> do it. just try it out. you will feel like you're watching magic.
03:42	Derander	I am severely time limited
03:42	Derander	high school student doing college apps & working
03:42	Derander	I'm studying spanish right now on the other monitor :P
03:42	defn	don't play games with me. you're on irc.
03:43	defn	nice calculated move there
03:43	Derander	;-)
03:43	defn	quit making excuses and do it.
03:43	defn	:)
03:43	Derander	I will later
03:43	Derander	I have it on a todo list
03:43	Derander	but emacs isn't open right now
03:43	defn	https://github.com/tcrayford/clojure-refactoring
03:44	Derander	right
03:44	defn	thread-first and thread-last are great fun to play with
03:44	Derander	I wish I understood font-lock
03:44	Derander	there are a lot of things I want to do with syntax highlighting in clojure
03:44	defn	you can walk through a bunch of source you've written without paying attention to thread-first/last
03:44	Derander	that I simply can't implement
03:45	defn	and then go back and literally hit hotkeys on your forms and change them to use ->, ->>, so you can see the readability changes immediately
03:45	defn	it's great.
03:45	Derander	right
03:45	Derander	I want arguments to functions to be highlighted in their bodies
03:45	defn	i wish more language focused on "code filters"
03:45	Derander	code filters?
03:46	defn	what we're describing are "code filters". my term, not sure what the proper nomenclature is...
03:46	defn	we're not changing the overall truth of the function
03:46	Derander	oh, yes.
03:46	defn	we're just changing its structure
03:47	Derander	yes. I remember a few years ago when I was learning ruby I had an epiphany about refactoring
03:47	defn	i think it would be cool to have a photoshop Filters-size list of possible "filters" you could apply to a form.
03:47	Derander	it was a really magical moment
03:48	Derander	basically what you're talking about -- thinking about transformations as keeping the same meaning while altering the structure
03:48	Derander	I think that's why sexps are so pretty to me
03:48	Derander	it's easier to do that
03:48	defn	i cannot convince anyone to use clojure
03:48	defn	i think im a terrible salesman or something
03:49	Derander	I don't really argue for clojure, just for thinking outside the imperative/procedural/oop box
03:49	Derander	I usually do it by challenging somebody to a coding competition
03:49	defn	i object strongly to that
03:49	defn	the first part :)
03:49	defn	we /must/ argue for clojure
03:50	Derander	why?
03:50	clojurebot	http://clojure.org/rationale
03:50	defn	FP has taken a lot of ideas from OOP, but the reverse is not true
03:50	Derander	haha
03:50	Licenser	morning!
03:50	Derander	Licenser: good morning
03:50	defn	morning Licenser, long time no see
03:50	Licenser	I have chocolat!
03:50	defn	NOMNOMNOM
03:50	Licenser	defn: yap I had to manage to break my IT departments security again so I could use IRC :P
03:50	defn	ssh tunnel or even more hackish?
03:51	Derander	https://github.com/ivan4th/swank-js <-- this is glorious
03:51	defn	Derander: ive been using that for the last week now! :)
03:51	Derander	breaking through firewalls at school has been the single greatest motivation to learn about ssh
03:51	Derander	defn: another one of those things I haven't installed yet
03:51	Licenser	defn: both
03:51	Derander	I'm hung up on slime
03:51	Licenser	since SSH isn't allowed
03:51	Derander	I have slime/slime-repl from elpa
03:51	Derander	but those versions don't include slime-contrib
03:51	Derander	and I haven't managed to get a working emacs ecosystem w/ cvs slime yet
03:51	Licenser	only stupidly proxied connetion ....
03:51	Derander	I've tried three time
03:51	defn	Derander: don't use CVS slime
03:51	defn	Derander: what platform?
03:52	Derander	defn: os x
03:52	Derander	carbon emacs
03:52	Derander	Licenser: are they blocking the protocol or the port?
03:52	Licenser	aquamax ftw
03:52	defn	what OS v#?
03:52	Derander	10.6.5
03:52	defn	Derander: i compiled from source
03:52	Licenser	Derander: everything
03:52	Derander	I used to use aquamacs but I saw no benefit to continuing to do so
03:52	Derander	hah. fun
03:52	defn	im on 10.6.5
03:52	Derander	for awhile they blocked 22 at school so I ran it on 443
03:52	Derander	defn: I don't think it's an emacs problem
03:53	Derander	I think I just need to trash a significant portion of my .emacs.d and rebuild
03:53	defn	oh your config is broken?
03:53	Derander	it's working now
03:53	defn	or you cant `make`?
03:53	Licenser	Derander: yes so they are a bit more strict here so they don't let you connect to 443 either unless it goes over ther effing proxy either
03:53	Derander	if i remove elpa slime/slime-repl and insert cvs slime then I'm fucked
03:53	Derander	Licenser: yeah, they eventually did that
03:53	defn	what is all this cvs talk?
03:53	defn	this is crazy.
03:53	Derander	defn: that is what I was advised to do
03:54	defn	do /not/ use cvs. use github.
03:54	Derander	Licenser: the school runs a networking class so we argued successfully for an unfirewalled (mostly) linux box that can sh out
03:54	Derander	I bounce everything through that now
03:54	Derander	https://github.com/nablaone/slime ..?
03:54	Licenser	Derander: yea sadly our IT department are dorks
03:54	defn	that's the one
03:54	Derander	Licenser: windows guys?
03:54	defn	i use technomancy's though
03:54	Derander	defn: "imported from CVS daily"? :)
03:54	Licenser	Derander: yes
03:55	defn	Derander: there are nightly builds you know?
03:55	defn	like, DMGs
03:55	Derander	defn: of carbon emacs?
03:55	Derander	or slime?
03:55	Derander	ah, technomancy's is frozen w/ clojure compat
03:55	Licenser	sad part is that I work in a Telco Supplyer so everyone in my department has a good understanding of networking and IT, sadly we are not the IT depretment :P
03:55	Derander	it's the new version of slime from cvs that are owning me.
03:55	Derander	Licenser: of course
03:55	Derander	Licenser: the district's networking/it used to be run by this sweet old linux guru
03:56	Derander	everything open source and primarily student setup/run
03:56	Licenser	heh that is good
03:56	Derander	ran great for 14 years
03:56	Derander	he retired to teach the networking class
03:56	Derander	windows guy managed to spend $4 million in 3 years and break literally everything
03:56	Licenser	which reminds me I should call our IT department since their stupid patches won't install
03:56	Derander	active directory: broken, proxies: broken, internet outages: common, firewalls: too restrictive, email: broken
03:57	Derander	replacing all linux and mac servers w/ windows servers in a district that uses exclusively macintosh computers for the users
03:57	defn	Licenser: i suggest a 3g tether
03:57	Derander	</rant>
03:57	Licenser	defn: the reception in here is horrible
03:57	Licenser	we're like in a pharadayic cage
03:57	defn	farradayic?
03:58	defn	farraday cage?
03:58	defn	s/farraday/faraday
03:58	sexpbot	<defn> faraday cage?
03:58	Licenser	yes that stuff
03:59	defn	heh
04:01	Derander	la encuesta
04:02	defn	good night all
04:02	defn	good talking with you Derander
04:02	Derander	good night
04:02	defn	ciao Licenser
04:05	Licenser	Í haaaate windows
04:05	Derander	yes
04:05	Derander	me too
04:05	Derander	good night from me as wlel :-)
04:06	Licenser	take care Derander
04:10	fliebel	morning
04:25	defn	' as a constituent character is fun.
04:27	raek	# as a reader macro character is fn.
05:32	auser	clojure noob here... having some trouble importing the clojar dependency (org.clojars.ctdean/apache-cassandra) from lein.
05:33	auser	I have "[org.clojars.ctdean/apache-cassandra "0.7.0-beta3"]" in the project.clj and (:import '(org.clojars.ctdean.thrift CassandraDaemon) in the class file, but it's failing with ClassNotFoundException
05:38	btw0_	for identation of coding style, is there a simple rule of thumb? I am a little confused of when to use 2 spaces and when to align all args to the first args
05:39	Chousuke	align args when it looks okay. :P
05:43	Chousuke	so, hm. Indent code according to the level of nesting, and align code after indenting it as needed to make it visually appealing.
05:44	raek	btw0_: 2 spaces are mostly used for special forms
05:45	Chousuke	hm?
05:45	Chousuke	2 spaces is used for all indents.
05:45	raek	hrm, that's not how clojure-mode does it...
05:46	Chousuke	When does it indent more than 2 spaces?
05:46	Chousuke	(per level, of course)
05:46	btw0_	raek: so 2 spaces for special forms and ident args to the first one for all other cases?
05:47	raek	(foo a
05:47	raek	b
05:47	raek	c)
05:47	raek	but
05:47	Chousuke	raek: that's alignment, not indentation
05:47	raek	(if pred
05:47	raek	a
05:47	raek	b
05:47	btw0_	raek: i got it, thanks
05:47	raek	I guess I wasn't aware of the difference...
05:48	Chousuke	The way I see it b and c have the same indent as foo
05:48	Chousuke	and are just aligned to a
05:48	Chousuke	while with if, a and b are their own scopes, one level deeper than if, so they need a new indent
05:50	Chousuke	it gets somewhat trickier with defn etc. that takes parameter vectors and dosctrings and whatnot before the actual code block begins
05:56	raek	one difference from other lisps I have noticed is the tendency for this:
05:56	raek	(dosync
05:56	raek	(a)
05:56	raek	(b))
05:56	raek	instead of
05:56	raek	(dosync
05:57	raek	(a)
05:57	raek	(b))
05:57	stain_	that looks totally different! :)
05:57	stain_	1-space-indent must die
06:26	Licenser	aloa
06:28	lpetit	in ccw i currently implemented the most "repeatable" (context free) indentation heuristic possible: alignement with the first previous sibling which is the first non blank thing on a line, or else 2-space indent from the parent paren form, or else 1-space indent from the parent non-paren ({, [, etc.) form (1-space or 2-space relative to the end of the form "opening", that is if the form is 2 chars wide, like in #(, it's 2 spaces from th
06:29	lpetit	There's not assumption about whether we're in a function call, a special op call, a macro call.
06:31	Licenser	lpetit: ccw's identation works good I just had one feature request: ident all or ident selection :)
06:31	Licenser	that'd be sweet
06:32	lpetit	indeed.
06:32	Licenser	I had to reindent a large file and it was hell :P doing it for each line on it's own
06:32	lpetit	Though when I work on this again (yet I'm busy with finalizing the repl ui integration), I'll first make auto-indent better, by also reindenting possibly existing following siblings and children.
06:33	lpetit	Licenser: :-(
06:33	Licenser	lpetit: not your fault, it came from moving source around and each editor having it's own thoughts about identations
06:34	Licenser	also in the repl UI I kind of miss the prompt
06:34	Licenser	it's hard to see what NS you're in
06:34	lpetit	And I'll do this "smarter auto indent" smart enough not to ruin hand-made indentation: it will just reindent the line you ask it for, observe the col change (+ 2 , -3, whatever), and replicate this change to the following lines concerning children and siblings;
06:35	lpetit	yes, the prompt issue keeps coming
06:35	Licenser	^^
06:36	lpetit	Did you do a permanent switch to the (temporary) repl ui fork ?
06:36	Licenser	other then that I find the repl management in the beta a bit more confusoing then in the stable :P
06:36	Licenser	yap
06:36	cemerick	Licenser: I'm listening :-)
06:36	lpetit	heh, there were sufficient disclaimers about the stability of this branch :-p
06:36	lpetit	look, you've awaken the wolf :)
06:37	Licenser	lpetit: yes I don't talk about crash's but about usability
06:37	Licenser	it is a nice improvment that you have a 'run as clojure' now so I kind of miss the simple 'start project REPL'
06:37	lpetit	working hard today on bringing more of paredit to it
06:37	lpetit	??
06:37	Licenser	oh yes and paredit in the repl console can be a PITA if you copy/paste half finished code :P
06:37	Licenser	starts eclipse
06:38	lpetit	when paredit is totally ported, intend it to behave as in the editor, including the 2 modes: default and strict.
06:38	lpetit	s/intend/expect/
06:38	sexpbot	<lpetit> when paredit is totally ported, expect it to behave as in the editor, including the 2 modes: default and strict.
06:40	Licenser	also the enable/disable clojure thing could indicate if itis currently active or not
06:40	Licenser	AND if you reopen the workspace the clojure menu is gone
06:40	Licenser	sorry for whining so much but I figure feedback helps :=
06:41	Licenser	the editor has paredit modE?
06:41	cemerick	It seems like the typical approach in eclipse-land is that, once a nature is added to project, it's not removable. We could match that. shrug
06:42	cemerick	Licenser: Indeed, I use it constantly.
06:42	Licenser	I only see that you can set up strict mode, is that paredit mode?
06:43	cemerick	yeah
06:43	lpetit	Licenser: strict mode is what emacs users call paredit mode, yes
06:43	Licenser	ah okay
06:43	Licenser	okay okay :)
06:43	lpetit	You can change the default mode an editor is open in, via Window > Preferences > Clojure > ...
06:43	Licenser	ctrl+alt+l seems for some reason not to work when you have no repl started
06:44	Licenser	that'd also be noice if it could start the repl if you are trying to load something into it :P
06:44	lpetit	known regression, reported by Lee, if I remember well
06:44	cemerick	Licenser: what command does that correspond to?
06:44	Licenser	ah okay :)
06:44	Licenser	cemerick: load file in REPL
06:45	lpetit	yes, the enable / disable clojure thing should be smarter. There's an issue for it.
06:45	lpetit	Concerning the clojure menu, I'm not sure I understand.
06:45	cemerick	lpetit: That's not a regression, IMO. That's a flaw in Lee's workflow. If I start popping open new REPL processes because I try to load a file without a REPL available, I'll be very irritated. :-\|
06:45	Licenser	traclked it down: if you select the project and are not in a editor the clojure menu disapears
06:46	lpetit	cemerick: That's a regression wrt how things work in 0.0.64. How things work in 0.0.64 being a good or bad thing is another topic :)
06:46	Licenser	it makes sense since currently there are only editor level commands in there but it is a bit confusing tohave it pop up and hide
06:47	cemerick	lpetit: fair enough :-)
06:47	Licenser	another question is compiling, is there something like 'compile project'?
06:47	lpetit	Licenser: well, it's dynamically visible depending on the context, indeed.
06:47	Licenser	I kind of didn't found it hat do do the horrible thing of writing a maven pom
06:47	cemerick	That's usually considered a feature :-)
06:47	lpetit	Licenser: hot topic.
06:47	Licenser	heh
06:47	Licenser	should I mention the next hot topic: dependencies :P
06:47	lpetit	Licenser: I definitely want to rework the current Clojure Builder.
06:48	cemerick	Licenser: eclipse's model is to continuously build projects
06:48	Licenser	very sweet would be lein support (in my eyes)
06:49	cemerick	A contentious issue.
06:49	lpetit	Even without talking (heh, Chas ;) ) about not hijacking the clojure application started by the user for the internal needs of ccw, the current builder does 2 things: it loads things in the application, and it does this by compiling namespaces.
06:49	Licenser	nods so in other words if I want to have things packaged I will be dependant on maven or lein right?
06:50	lpetit	I want it to be the other way around: it should only load things. AOT compilation should be only done when there's no REPL ('cause e.g. in windows the AOT compilation will fail if the class file is already loaded by the JVM)
06:50	cemerick	Licenser: the project.clj "model" is in such a state of flux, I don't think lpetit or I have any interest in spending time tracking it.
06:50	Licenser	also true
06:51	cemerick	Licenser: Eclipse has excellent ant, maven, and gradle plugins. shrug
06:51	lpetit	yep
06:51	Licenser	but maven is horrible, ant is supposed to be horribler and gradle - never tried it
06:52	Licenser	yet lein is the mostly wide spread build/dep management tool for clojure I think
06:52	cemerick	I'm sure I'll be including that topic in my next survey.
06:52	lpetit	If the world was just: "existing java ecosystem build tools (maven, gradle, ant)" versus "clojure NIH-reinvented lein build tool", and all the clojure community (or a biig part of it) was behind lein, then I'll consider supporting it now.
06:52	Licenser	hmm perhaps if there were a lein library that'd let people do things like (lein compile "my/project/dir")
06:53	lpetit	The problem, is, the NIH syndrom has led to (to my knowledge): leiningen, cake, cljr.
06:53	Licenser	what is NIH?
06:53	lpetit	Not Invented Here
06:53	Licenser	ah
06:54	Licenser	no to be frank I don't care if the build tool is writen in Visual basic, just that maven for example is horrible complex compared to a project.clj
06:54	Licenser	the pom.xml for the project I work on has like 160 lines of which I only understand half. the project.clj would have less them 10 I guess
06:55	Licenser	that is what I currently measure 'I prefare line over mvn'
06:55	Licenser	or rather the pom.xml
06:56	Licenser	don't care what works in the background if I don't have to magle with it
06:56	lpetit	Licenser: but isn't the philosophy of Clojure to not reinvent the wheel, and to provide (when possible) "lightweight" layer over existing java libs ? ;-)
06:56	Licenser	isn't lein doing exactly that? :P
06:56	lpetit	lein, cake, etc., by adding their own way of providing "plugins", by masking the use of maven plugins, do not play it well IMHO
06:56	Licenser	afiak is it using ant/mvn for the actual work just coving it
06:57	Licenser	so in the end I don't care as long as I don't have to fill out a 160 line form to download 2 dependencies and compile my project in a jar
06:57	Licenser	I have enough of that byrocracy out of the programming world :P and trust me I do I live in germany
06:57	lpetit	no, lein is reinventing existing maven plugins, and just leveraging the use of maven libs for accessing / managing maven repos.
07:00	lpetit	If I was not busy enough with ccw, I'd work to push clojure version of polyglot maven, help make clojure-maven-plugin more featureful (for example the REPL you get from clojure:repl is so 70ies ;) ), and add this clojure layer which would enable building maven plugins in clojure to be super easy.
07:01	cemerick	lpetit: did you see the project.clj-SPEC thread?
07:01	lpetit	Yes, but where is it now ?
07:01	cemerick	hasn't moved: http://groups.google.com/group/projectclj---spec/browse_frm/thread/855ce112689fb33f
07:02	cemerick	pmaven appears to be a broken premise, at least according to the two contributors to the clojure side of it.
07:02	lpetit	oh no, I hadn't seen this projectclj google group
07:03	lpetit	joining it right now
07:03	lpetit	will read it later, though, dinner time!
07:06	cemerick	It's not really a "live" group. I think that thread sorta killed it. :-(
07:07	cemerick	Licenser: FWIW, those of us that use maven don't do it because we're masochists or because we like "bureaucracy". e.g. http://cemerick.com/2010/03/25/why-using-maven-for-clojure-builds-is-a-no-brainer/
07:07	fliebel	Is there something like Pythons Mechanize for Clojure? Mechanize is one mutable object thing, and it kills me.
07:11	mfex	fliebel, perhaps https://github.com/clj-sys/clj-http
07:11	Licenser	cemerick: I'll ra that
07:12	fliebel	mfex: nah, Mechanize is specialized in scraping data and submitting forms.
07:14	cemerick	fliebel: Check out selenium -- primarily intended for automated webapp testing, but it'll do for a lot of other uses as well.
07:14	cemerick	Absurdly comprehensive functionality.
07:15	fliebel	cemerick: It's not Clojure, right? The I might just as well use Mechanize.
07:15	cemerick	Hrm, almost certainly mutable stuffs though -- it uses the actual browsers (e.g. webkit or mozilla, or whatever).
07:16	mfex	fliebel, there is also this in java: http://htmlunit.sourceforge.net/
07:16	Licenser	cemerick: my yuck with maven is that the pom's are horrible to read/write and the oficial documentation expects to to know the stuff already since they just explain things like: Filter - you can filter stuff with that, no mention of syntax or how exactly things work
07:16	cemerick	fliebel: As you like. Just because something's not written in Clojure doesn't mean it's bad. Having JVM libs at our disposal is one of our greatest strengths.
07:18	cemerick	Licenser: If it's XML you don't like, I'd agree with you; but, that's the same objection people raise about lisps and their parentheses…fundamentally a cosmetic one. FWIW: http://maven.apache.org/guides/getting-started/index.html#How_do_I_filter_resource_files
07:19	Licenser	cemerick: yes I do dislike XML but if I had to write 160 lines clojure to compile my project and pack it in a jar I'd just object that as much
07:20	Licenser	I don't even dislike XML in general, I think it is overused in some places and the pom is one of them in my eyes
07:20	fliebel	cemerick: I will have a look around. The Python thing works fine, but the browser is a mutable object, that changes as you browse, so I have to make sure to leave it as it was after every action.
07:21	Licenser	cemerick: I think I read that already, but I still failed to do what I wanted and had to redo my application structure since I failed to work out maven's copy stuff dependencies
07:22	Licenser	hack I am still not rid of the useless folders in the target directory
07:22	cemerick	fliebel: I wouldn't expect anyone to be crazy enough to reimplement a browser client framework in a persistent fashion. shrug
07:23	Licenser	things like maven-archiver
07:24	fliebel	cemerick: I don't see why a browser needs to be so stateful on a sateless protocol like HTTP.
07:24	Licenser	or classes - for some reason
07:25	Licenser	[
07:26	cemerick	Licenser: there's no doubt that maven is not the simplest tool. Of course, if it were, I wouldn't be using it.
07:26	Licenser	don't you like simple tools?
07:28	cemerick	fliebel: A stateless protocol says nothing about the architecture of the client that implements it.
07:29	cemerick	Licenser: Yes, but I need capable tools as well. A simple build tool that can't do what I need it to do isn't very helpful to me.
07:29	Licenser	I personally think that simplicity is a very important feature
07:29	Licenser	cemerick: I think that's wrong
07:29	Licenser	things don't have to be complicated to be capable
07:30	fliebel	cemerick: True, I can see how this could be implemented in a persistent manner though.
07:30	Licenser	I belive that simple things should be simple
07:30	cemerick	fliebel: I'm certain it could; the question is, who wants to take that particular implementation and maintenance burden? ;-)
07:31	cemerick	Licenser: "build", broadly writ, is not a simple concept.
07:31	Licenser	I mean I dear to say that many pom files are more complex and hard to write then the code they compile - especially in clojure land
07:32	Licenser	cemerick: it has simple basics
07:39	cemerick	Licenser: We'll have to agree to disagree. I've exceeded my quota of beating the dead build horse for the day. FWIW, my bottom line re: maven v. lein/cake is here: http://groups.google.com/group/projectclj---spec/msg/ff9439428484059b
07:45	bozhidar	hi, guys
07:45	bozhidar	anyone here running stock SLIME + clojure?
07:46	bozhidar	recently I've been hacking some Common Lisp and I had to go back to the stock SLIME instead of the clojure compatible in ELPA
07:46	bozhidar	so I was wondering what are my options now
07:47	bozhidar	I tried connecting to a swank-clojure server started from lein
07:47	bozhidar	the repl opened
07:47	bozhidar	but nothing would be evaluated in it
07:47	bozhidar	there was nothing significant in the inferior lisp buffer as well
07:59	mrBliss	bozhidar: I've experienced the same. I'm using slime-20100404.1 from technomancy's elpa repo. I pulled in the rest of slime of the same CVS revision (the same day at least), hoping it wouldn't break. I didn't touch the original files from technomancy. Clojure works perfectly and CLISP as well. The only problem I've noticed: closing CLISP sldb buffers produces an error, but you can just ignore it and press enter again.
08:00	bozhidar	mrBliss: I dream of upstream Clojure support in SLIME someday...
08:00	mrBliss	bozhidar: me too :-)
08:01	mrBliss	bozhidar: or a non-stripped down version of SLIME in technomancy's elpa repo.
08:01	bozhidar	well, he mentions in the docs
08:01	bozhidar	that his slime should work with Common Lisp
08:02	bozhidar	but it doesn't(at least for me) and that's what's causing my grief
08:02	bozhidar	but you're right, a fully fledged SLIME would be a welcome resolution to the problem
08:03	bozhidar	what environment are you using cemerick?
08:03	mrBliss	The thing I hate about SLIME is the font on the homepage (Curse you Comic Sans MS!) ;-)
08:04	cemerick	bozhidar: I use Eclipse and ccw, but I wouldn't bother trying to convert emacs users; my point is, a purpose-build emacs environment for Clojure would seem to be an obvious step, yet no one's taken it.
08:06	cemerick	SLIME (AFAIK) is weighed down by a ton of stuff that's legacy to CL, knows nothing about the JVM, and apparently breaks on HEAD regularly vs. swank-clojure. Seems less than ideal. shrug
08:06	bozhidar	cemerick: you're absolutely correct. As far as I know the problem is that the implementation of such supports require vast knowledge of both SLIME & Common Lisp
08:06	cemerick	But then, I'm the last person that should be advising emacs users on what they should do. ;-)
08:07	bozhidar	cemerick: I'm a progressive Emacs user and I understand and accept its problems
08:07	jweiss	if i just want to create a class with some methods (and I won't be creating any instances from clojure, just creating the class to be consumed by a java tool), can i use reify? i don't have any interfaces to implement
08:09	cemerick	jweiss: reify generates an instance of an anonymous class.
08:09	cemerick	Your use case would require gen-class.
08:09	bozhidar	cemerick: Emacs is less than ideal for many tasks, but I think that Lisp coding is not one of them. If the situation around slime doesn't get resolved however I might move my Clojure coding next to my Java coding - in IntelliJ IDEA
08:10	jweiss	cemerick: ok that's how i'm doing it now. i thought i might be able to use defrecord or reify, but i don't think it quite fits
08:10	cemerick	bozhidar: how is La Clojure doing these days, anyway? It was in rough shape last I looked.
08:10	cemerick	jweiss: You could use definterface and defrecord together…
08:10	bozhidar	cemerick: there is a new release of the plugin for the upcoming IDEA X
08:11	bozhidar	I haven't had the time to play with it yet, but I heard some nice comments about it
08:11	cemerick	I heard it's not functionally different though…just made IDEA X compatible?
08:11	jweiss	cemerick: yeah, i may try that just because gen-class is awkward. i don't even need the interface but it may be less awkward :)
08:11	bozhidar	cemerick: the old version didn't even work so I'd call this is a welcome improvement :-)
08:12	cemerick	ha.
08:12	cemerick	yikes :-)
08:12	bozhidar	cemerick: it seems that JetBrains are investing heavily in Groovy & Scala - the support from them rivals the Java support
08:12	cemerick	Groovy makes sense. Scala seems like a bad bet.
08:13	cemerick	bozhidar: you should give ccw a shot, if you can bear the pain of eclipse ;-) The latest RC is very good, and lpetit is busy making it better even now.
08:13	bozhidar	cemerick: what makes you think that? most people seem to prefer scala - better performance, FP
08:14	lpetit	a grave for groovy
08:14	bozhidar	cemerick: I might check it out. I used to use Eclipse a lot before I found IntelliJ and don't have anything against in particular(except for the terrible plugin updates)
08:14	cemerick	bozhidar: Groovy has a huge community, far larger than either scala or Clojure. And, assuming Oracle doesn't drop the ball on Java 7 and 8, I don't think scala will see much "mainstream" adoption. shrug
08:15	lpetit	cemerick: java has a huge community :p
08:16	cemerick	lpetit: point taken, I was speaking in relative terms. Groovy has a decent sized community. Better? ;-)
08:16	cemerick	'course, we'd then have to characterize the Scala and Clojure communities as diminutive, which is rhetorically unfortunate.
08:17	lpetit	yes, to me groovy filled a hole. And now "it's there". But really I don't like groovy. Even groovy's creator said he would not have written groovy if scala had been 4 years older.
08:17	bozhidar	cemerick: sadly, in my country(Bulgaria), none of those languages has any community
08:17	bozhidar	I judge about something'
08:18	bozhidar	s popularity by google trends, stackoverflow questions and the amount of books being published
08:18	cemerick	lpetit: I saw that, and I don't understand it at all -- groovy as the dynamic counterpart to Java isn't replaced in any way by scala.
08:19	bozhidar	scala feels like a dynamic language although it's not
08:19	fogus`	cemerick: It depends on the original motivation for creating Groovy.
08:20	bozhidar	and it has nice support for parallel programs, which Groovy lacks
08:20	lpetit	cemerick: to be really honest, programs which start with weak static typing compilation checks do this half by religion, half by ease of implementation !
08:21	cemerick	fogus`: yeah, perhaps he had a particular use case that is now better served by scala. On spec though, the languages couldn't be less alike.
08:21	lpetit	fogus: indeed, thus my point on not doing compile time type check and saying it's a feature where it's a resource dedication choice
08:22	lpetit	s/where/when/
08:22	sexpbot	<lpetit> fogus: indeed, thus my point on not doing compile time type check and saying it's a feature when it's a resource dedication choice
08:22	fogus`	If I hadn't discovered Clojure the world would have had to content with yet another poorly implemented Scheme. :p
08:22	fogus`	s/content/contend/
08:22	sexpbot	<fogus> If I hadn't discovered Clojure the world would have had to contend with yet another poorly implemented Scheme. :p
08:23	bozhidar	haha, good one fogus` :-)
08:23	dnolen	lpetit: it's not just a resource dedication choice. Static typing guarantees are still so weak. You build a complex system that can catch only a small portion of programmer error.
08:24	cemerick	fogus`: no need to stop now; it's not like yet another poorly implemented scheme will hurt anything. ;-)
08:24	lpetit	dnolen: I'd call that "throwing the baby with the bath water" :)
08:24	fogus`	cemerick: ;-)
08:24	dnolen	lpetit: no, it's like ubiquitous laziness, it's a great idea generator. but it's a also a big pain in the butt.
08:24	lpetit	At least the Qi language has proven that this could be done.
08:26	dnolen	lpetit: yes Qi's approach is great. But with Qi III just around the corner, that's 10 years of work. resource dedication has to be considered in that time frame.
08:26	lpetit	dnolen: I would really see nothing wrong with an optional type check system "a la Qi" on clojure. And Rich seems to agree with this.
08:27	lpetit	dnolen: Exactly. It's more resource dedication than anything else. It's too easy to claim it's a feature not to have it.
08:28	dnolen	lpetit: totally. but it's not a feature worth having if not done right.
08:28	dnolen	I find Odersky's complaints on how Scala's popularity basically froze the language telling in that regard.
08:29	dnolen	s/complaints/comments
08:29	sexpbot	<dnolen> I find Odersky's comments on how Scala's popularity basically froze the language telling in that regard.
08:29	cemerick	lpetit: does he really agree? I thought his last comment was in the neighborhood of "if someone wants to implement it and use it, they're free to do so"…
08:29	fogus`	cemerick: That was my "reading" as well
08:29	lpetit	dnolen: granted. And I really appreciate Rich having the intelligence to say that, cause then clojure is not slowed down by a poor implementation.
08:31	dnolen	Alan Kay's points about "style" vs. "accretion" languages is also appropriate. Lisp usually gives you an escape hatch and and more opportunities to change your mind.
08:31	cemerick	dnolen: well, Scala needed some freezing. fogus`'s tweets notwithstanding, I struggle to truly understand scala code, even if I can bang it out mostly blindly.
08:31	cemerick	That needed a ;-)
08:32	lpetit	cemerick: I remember him telling that he would find it interesting to do something like in Qi. But there are a lot of pre-requisite work, which have not been done yet. He (wisely) wanted to be able to build this on top of a more general rule inference system.
08:32	cemerick	I must not have been around for that.
08:33	kotarak	I recently listened to two introductory talks to Scala. And I was quite disappointed of what kind of hoops you have to hop through. And how the underlying warts and bolts shine through... :/
08:33	fogus`	lpetit: ... with Datalog at its base
08:33	cemerick	fogus`: I was going to say, a decent unification library would make a lot of sense…
08:33	lpetit	fogus: yes, it's "Datalog" I couldn't make out of my fingers.
08:35	esj	yes please ;)
08:35	lpetit	cemerick: there http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/6f8bf865f4afbb6f/5d8366b79d80edc0?lnk=gst&q=datalog+static+typing#5d8366b79d80edc0
08:36	lpetit	fogus: I'm really a noob wrt these inference engines. For example (without tongue in a cheeke pliz ;) ), are clojure.unify and mini-kanren and alike (logos it is ?) competitors ?
08:37	cemerick	ah, I do seem to remember that…from before I gave up on reading the clojure ML
08:38	dnolen	lpetit: Logos is me mostly me studying Prolog and Prolog literature in Clojure, w/ an interest in seeing how well a Clojure Prolog engine could perform.
08:39	dnolen	miniKanren is basically a purely functional take on Warren's Abstract Machine, a good thing to try with Clojure.
08:39	fogus`	lpetit: The core.unify lib only solves a very narrow problem that is orthogonal to inference.
08:40	dnolen	I think a sufficiently performant Datalog in Clojure will need to use ROBDDs. Lots 'o work.
08:41	lpetit	ROBDDs being ... ?
08:41	dnolen	Reduced Ordered Binary Decision Lists
08:41	lpetit	ok, it's definitely not my field of expertise :-p
08:41	fogus`	lpetit: David has taken a slightly different route to unification than me, but I don't see it as competition. Hopefully there will be cross-pollination
08:41	dnolen	http://bddbddb.sourceforge.net/
08:41	lpetit	thanks for the info!
08:42	lpetit	must leave, cu
08:42	esj	bddbddb !
08:42	esj	its like caadddr :)
08:44	fogus`	lpetit: take care
08:45	esj	thing they could have thrown some "p"s in there to give the dyslexics more to cheer about
08:46	dnolen	fogus`: totally, I added my unifier to see what it would take to add one that worked like yours.
08:55	bozhidar	cemerick: IDEA's La Clojure doesn't look that good even now - starting a new REPL generates a NPE :-)
08:55	cemerick	yikes!
08:55	cemerick	bozhidar: that's even worse than before IIRC
08:56	bozhidar	it's still RC so they fix something before the final release but I seriously doubt it
08:56	bozhidar	La Clojure doesn't support Clojure 1.2.0 as well
08:56	bozhidar	only 1.0 and 1.1
08:56	cemerick	Might be time to stick a fork in that one. :-(
08:56	bozhidar	it seems that trying ccw might be a good idea :-)
08:57	cemerick	bozhidar: Definitely go for the RC. It has much-improved REPL support.
08:57	cemerick	I think we'll probably do one or two more RC's before putting out an 0.2.0 release.
08:58	bozhidar	ok, I'll certainly try the RC
09:01	bozhidar	btw as we spoke JetBrains officially unveiled IntelliJ X :-)
09:07	cemerick	bozhidar: whoa, they list Clojure as a "supported language". That's some unfortunate marketing B.S.
09:09	bartj	&(clojure.set #{2} '(2 3))
09:09	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.set
09:10	bozhidar	cemerick: the small community is the greatest IntelliJ weakness. There is almost nothing developed outside of JetBrains and the end result is to be expected...I think the same 5 or so guys develop the plugins for most of the lesser known langs and I really doubt that they are experts in all of them
09:10	bartj	the above expression does not warn saying (2 3) is not a set
09:10	bartj	and it returns a #{}
09:11	cemerick	bozhidar: The published screenshots show them browsing around enclojure's codebase, too. That's just bad form. :-(
09:11	cemerick	e.g. http://plugins.intellij.net/preview/popup/?sid=2625&pid=4050
09:13	bozhidar	cemerick: this is disturbing indeed, I haven't noticed it before
09:13	chouser	weird
09:22	bartj	chouser, were you replying to my question/comment above?
09:24	chouser	bartj: no, that's just undefined behavior when you give a funtion undocumented input. :-)
09:24	chouser	"weird" was for a product screenshot to include code from a competing product
09:25	chouser	oh no, I created another race condition. Grrr
09:25	bartj	chouser, would that be classified as a bug?
09:27	chouser	bartj: probably not. well, maybe a bug in the code that's calling a clojure.set function with a non-set argument
09:34	bartj	chouser, ok, thanks
09:53	jcromartie	what's up with clj-stacktrace? the example in the readme doesn't print a stacktrace http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace
09:56	jcromartie	never mind, I'm way out of date
09:58	jcromartie	was using 0.1.0
09:58	jcromartie	never mind, 0.2.0 doesn't do anything either
09:59	dnolen	jcromartie: are you using Clojure 1.2.0? IMO, Clojure 1.3.0 stacktraces outdo clj-stacktrace.
10:00	jcromartie	I'm using the released Clojure 1.2
10:00	jcromartie	1.2.0
10:01	dnolen	jcromartie: hmm, I never had any issues w/ clj-stacktrace and 1.2.0, but I mostly used it in the context of Ring.
10:02	jcromartie	It just doesn't seem to do anything on exceptions in the repl
10:07	jcromartie	should I be using clj-stacktrace 0.1.0 or 0.2.0?
10:08	fogus`	,``````````x
10:08	clojurebot	#<ExecutionException java.util.concurrent.ExecutionException: java.lang.StackOverflowError>
10:08	jcromartie	is there perhaps some extra step I'm missing, or maybe it doesn't work with lein repl?
10:09	cemerick	kotarak: FYI: https://groups.google.com/group/clojure-clutch?hl=en
10:09	kotarak	cemerick: thanks :) Clojure and Couch feel like a good team. :)
10:09	cemerick	Indeed they are. :-)
10:10	jcromartie	compare https://gist.github.com/734802 to https://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace/blob/master/README.md
10:11	jcromartie	wow ok
10:11	jcromartie	you know what's COMPLETELY missing from the clj-stacktrace readme?
10:11	jcromartie	that you have to use (pst) to print stack traces
10:12	tonyl	jcromartie: it seems like clj-stacktrace is not being loaded in the class path
10:12	tonyl	wait, scratch that
10:12	tonyl	then use would've send an error
10:13	jcromartie	readme says "For example, to print a nice stack trace in a REPL:" but is missing a rather important bit (the part with what you have to do to actually print the stack trace)
10:14	tonyl	I would contact the author about it.
10:22	fliebel	kotarak: I missed the conversation about Couch. What are you doing?
10:22	kotarak	fliebel: there was not really a discussion about couch. I use it to back me homepage rewrite.
10:23	jcromartie	I've thought about using couch
10:23	fliebel	kotarak: Are you using Clutch or Clojure-CouchDB? (And what is the homepage?)
10:23	jcromartie	being able to just stick Clojure hash-maps in a document store seems too good to be true though
10:24	jcromartie	I wonder how it would scale for a business app
10:25	fliebel	I wonder how those CouchDB libs deal with failed updates.
10:25	kotarak	fliebel: clutch. http://kotka.de/blog. The blog is done by blosxom (an ancient perl script). The static part is terribly out-of-date, because I broke my mason scripts (also perl). I'm about a re-design with a new build system in the background using clojure and couch.
10:26	kotarak	fliebel: they will probably tell you?
10:26	fliebel	For example, I get 2 copies of the same document, update them, and insert the updates one after another. After the first update, the _rev is changed, and the second update will fail.
10:27	fliebel	So unless there is magic in there, it looks painful in a real app where Couch gets hammered a bit.
10:29	kotarak	fliebel: this is what clutch tells you: #<CompilerException java.io.IOException: CouchDB Response Error: 409 Conflict (REPL:4)>
10:30	fliebel	kotarak: I thought it would be nice to implement the atom interface on top of Couch, but I can't, because there isn't one.
10:31	kotarak	fliebel: I know. And even if it were there, I'm not sure it would be a good idea. However I showed how you do it locally for your projects (or anyone who wants to use the modified API).
10:31	kotarak	fliebel: I would be highly suspicious of any automatic merging going on there....
10:32	fliebel	kotarak: No merging! Just getting the new version and applying the fn until it works. Just like the regular Atom spin loop.
10:33	kotarak	fliebel: yeah exactly. The merging. Someone changes a key :a to value :b and another one to :c. The :c guy is faster (and more correct because :b is already out-of-date). Now the :b guy retries and overwrites with a wrong value. No. I don't like that.
10:33	kotarak	At least not for the systems I work with.
10:34	kotarak	If everything is purely based on computations, then the situation might be different.
10:34	fliebel	kotarak: So how would you handle the issue if Couch told you the update failed?
10:35	kzar`	I'm just reading about multimethods, haven't tried them yet but they look cool. One thing I wasn't sure about, when you use stuff like (derive doesn't that change some global variable somewhere? Does it end up working OK?
10:35	kotarak	fliebel: the :b guy (which is a guy in front of computer) would go "huh?", read ":c", understand what happened (or get that understanding from a colleague) and skip his try to write :b somewhere
10:36	kotarak	kzar`: it does end up OK, because you have to use ::qualified-keywords.
10:37	kzar`	kotarak: How come using qualified keywords makes it OK? (Sorry I'm probably being dumb here)
10:37	kotarak	kzar`: because your derivations don't interfer with others. But you can just as well use a custom hierarchy with defmulti.
10:37	fliebel	kotarak: But you're assuming you just change the value regardless of that's in it, in which case you'd use reset! If you do (swap! doc inc) You'll want to have both executed, regardless of the order.
10:38	kotarak	fliebel: I don't need that up to now. But maybe my systems are just weird.
10:39	kotarak	and the user base small...
10:39	kotarak	and the data volume miniscule....
10:39	kotarak	etc.
10:39	fliebel	kotarak: But your case would still work as expected with reset!, right?
10:39	kzar`	kotarak: OK thanks I think I getya
10:40	kotarak	fliebel: no. Because afterwards there is a :b, where there should be a :c. The point is, that the computer cannot decide about :b or :c. You need human intervention. (In my case. Incrementing a counter is something different)
10:42	jweiss	& (#({:k :v}))
10:42	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentArrayMap
10:42	jweiss	i'm a little baffled by the syntax here, how come it doesn't just return the map
10:43	kzar`	jweiss: I think you're trying to call the map as a function but with no arguments
10:43	kzar`	,{:a 1 :b 2}
10:43	clojurebot	{:a 1, :b 2}
10:43	jweiss	kzar`: i thought i was creating a fucntion that returns a map, and calling the function.
10:43	kotarak	jweiss: #(foo) is (fn [] (foo))
10:44	tonyl	((fn [] {:k :v}))
10:44	tonyl	&((fn [] {:k :v}))
10:44	sexpbot	⟹ {:k :v}
10:44	kotarak	,(#(hash-map :k :v))
10:44	clojurebot	{:k :v}
10:44	jweiss	ah so i can't use the literal
10:44	jweiss	ok thanks
10:44	fliebel	kotarak: So you define the 'correct' order by the order people get the value, rather than by the order in which they update it?
10:45	kzar`	jweiss: Could you do it like this ,(#(map [:k :v])) ?
10:45	kzar`	,(#(map [:k :v]))
10:45	kzar`	,(#(hash-map [:k :v]))
10:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map
10:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: [:k :v]
10:46	kzar`	,(#(hash-map :k :v))
10:46	clojurebot	{:k :v}
10:46	tonyl	&(#(apply hash-map [:k :v]))
10:46	sexpbot	⟹ {:k :v}
10:46	kotarak	fliebel: No. I define "correct" by the content. If two people edit the same entry at the same time, those two people have to figure out, whether everything is ok on conflict. Not the machine.
10:48	kotarak	fliebel: Because the machine can't know whether really 500 or 700 units are blocked in production somewhere at the other end of the world.
10:48	kotarak	fliebel: But the people working with the data know it.
10:51	fliebel	kotarak: … Okay, I'll give the issue some more thought.
10:57	fliebel	kotarak: I think in your case you could still use compare-and-set! to resolve the conflict case yourself.
11:15	Islon	does anyone knows how to add a maven repository to cake?
11:19	Raynes	In your project.clj: :repositories [["nameofrepo" "linktorepo"]]
11:19	Raynes	Should do the trick.
11:23	Islon	thanks Raynes =)
11:55	fliebel	kotarak: I'm trying the protocol thing now, but it doesn't work: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No single method: swap_BANG_ of interface: iatom.IAtom found for function: swap! of protocol: IAtom
11:56	fliebel	Okay, I'm messing up arguments...
12:03	Islon	how do I take elements from a seq 2 by 2?
12:03	tonyl	try partition
12:04	tonyl	partition-all too
12:04	Islon	exactly what I want!
12:04	Islon	i always forgot function names ><
12:05	tonyl	me too, there are a lot of function names
12:06	Islon	i know what the function does but not the name
12:09	tonyl	&(count (remove fn? (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
12:09	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: You tripped the alarm! ns-publics is bad!
12:09	tonyl	,(count (remove fn? (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
12:09	clojurebot	546
12:09	Islon	i should use more clojuredocs too
12:10	tonyl	that is not counting macros
12:10	tonyl	yeah that helps me
12:10	tonyl	,(count (remove #(:macro (meta (var %1))) (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
12:10	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: p1__571# in this context
12:11	tonyl	I am getting this error
12:11	tonyl	i don't know why
12:12	tonyl	,(count (filter #(:macro (meta %1)) (vals (ns-publics 'clojure.core))))
12:12	clojurebot	71
12:12	tonyl	weird
12:17	amalloy	tonyl: %1 can be shortened to %, and #(:macro (meta %)) can be written as (comp macro meta)
12:17	amalloy	er, :macro
12:17	tonyl	that is true, I need to use comp more, god knows my code needs it in some parts
12:18	tonyl	but i thought meta needed a var
12:18	tonyl	not a symbol
12:18	tonyl	oh wait ns-publics vals are vars
12:18	tonyl	:P
12:18	amalloy	right you are
12:26	fliebel	Okay, I'm still messed up with the methods of my protocol. :(
12:27	fliebel	This is what I have: https://gist.github.com/735020
12:28	fliebel	works: (swap! (atom 1) + 1) fails: (swap! (atom 1) inc)
12:29	amalloy	fliebel: "fails" is not very specific
12:29	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
12:29	Chousuke	fliebel: protocol fns don't support varargs
12:29	amalloy	lol. good work clojurebot
12:29	fliebel	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No single method: swap_BANG_ of interface: iatom.IAtom found for function: swap! of protocol: IAtom
12:30	Chousuke	fliebel: so you're in fact binding three parameters, f, & and args
12:30	fliebel	Chousuke: That doesn't make sense, I think… The one without varargs is the one that fails, right?
12:32	fliebel	And what about reset! and compare-and-set! they don't use varargs either, but they don't work as well.
12:32	Chousuke	hm wait
12:33	Chousuke	don't you need to add "this" to the protocol declarations too?
12:33	fliebel	I don't know… Might try...
12:33	Chousuke	would explain why (swap a + 1) works since it takes three args. (that get bound to f & args)
12:34	fliebel	Now everything I do gives me the error.
12:37	amalloy	fliebel: that's progress! (probably)
12:38	fliebel	one moment...
12:42	fliebel	Right, now that I have everyting sorted out, it comes down to the vararg problem.
12:43	fliebel	But java.lang.Atom must also take varargs in some way, right?
12:43	amalloy	fliebel: clojure.lang.Atom
12:43	fliebel	right...
12:44	hiredman	you can trivially turn a vararg into a fixed arg
12:45	fliebel	swap(IFn f, Object x, Object y, ISeq args)
12:45	hiredman	protocols are best as implementation contracts, not usage
12:46	hiredman	so you have a lower bound of what is needed, which is described by a protocol, with a library of functions built on top of it
12:46	fliebel	sorry, diner is ready.
12:56	Licenser	aloa
12:57	amalloy	hiredman: ah, i see what you mean. so his Atom protocol only needs (atomic-swap f args), and then he builds a library on top of that to supply swap!, reset!, etc, for everything that extends the Atom protocol?
13:02	hiredman	really it only needs to take a function since you can pass it something like #(apply f % args)
13:03	amalloy	better still
13:04	amalloy	i'm starting to feel like i might understand how protocols are different from interfaces now
13:18	fliebel	I hope this makes somewhat sense? I works at least… https://gist.github.com/735020
13:21	amalloy	fliebel: did you read what hiredman and i discussed while you were at dinner?
13:23	amalloy	that is, IAtom would be best written as a protocol with just one function, named something like atomic-swap or swap*, and then you build up a library of functions that use that to implement varargs, reset!, etc, on top of that function
13:24	fliebel	amalloy: So I would just be doing ava.util.concurrent.atomic.AtomicReference
13:27	amalloy	no, you'd be defining an interface/protocol for things that are like AtomicReferences
13:27	fliebel	But it does make sense...
13:27	amalloy	then you build a library that deals with such things, and extend your protocol to AtomicReference, c.l.Atom...
13:28	fliebel	right, makes sense.
13:29	fliebel	But then I do have to implement Atom I think...
13:30	amalloy	um, what?
13:31	fliebel	If I have compare-and-set! defined in the interface, I can't simply map swap! to clojure.core.swap!
13:34	amalloy	(defn aref-swap! [ar f & args] (compare-and-set! ar #(apply f % args)))
13:34	amalloy	is not a complicated implementation
13:36	fliebel	amalloy: But that is not a proper swap!, swap! loops until compare-and-set! succeeds. But anyway, I need to implement a abstract swap! and reset! and do the interface for compare-and-set!
13:38	fliebel	And there is still validate and notifyWatches to consider. Both are in ARef, which I don't fancy implementing.
13:39	amalloy	so make swap! your primitive, if you prefer. is there a reason you need access to compare-and-set?
13:39	fliebel	Yea, because it's part of what Atom does, and part of what I want. As kotarak outlined, swap! is not the solution to everything.
13:47	fliebel	amalloy: Any idea how to best get hold of the methods in ARef?
13:49	amalloy	fraid not. i don't think i understand the question, but that's all right cause i can't think of a meaning for the question where i'd know the answer :)
13:50	fliebel	amalloy: I think I'll have to implement IRef and do it myself. Atom extends ARef, which contains methods to implement watcher and validator functions.
14:10	amalloy	fogus`: did you see what he did yesterday to poor tree-seq? i'm thinking chaotic good
14:11	technomancy	I'm just gonna leave this here: http://www.piratejesus.com/nerdcore/005.html
14:12	Raynes	technomancy: I'm just going to pick it up and walk off with it.
14:15	fliebel	Is there a reason why swap calls validate and notifyWatches as well? Because it calls compareAndSet which does both already.
14:34	brehaut	has anyone got a good intro/best practise for the clojure.test stuff?
14:34	auser	yes, i would like that too
14:34	brehaut	im currently fumbling round in the dark writing the worst tests in the world
14:42	KirinDave	Hum
14:42	KirinDave	I have a var containing a reference to a class.
14:42	KirinDave	How do I construct a new instance of the class referred to in that var?
14:43	KirinDave	Is it just reflection stuff?
14:43	hiredman	yes
14:44	Chousuke	an actual var object or just a global def?
14:44	amalloy	,(.newInstance java.util.Date)
14:44	clojurebot	#<Date Thu Dec 09 11:44:52 PST 2010>
14:44	KirinDave	Shucks, was hoping there was a clojurism.
14:44	hiredman	amalloy: not all classes support that
14:44	KirinDave	Chousuke: Actual var.
14:44	Chousuke	then you need to deref the var first I guess
14:44	cemerick	KirinDave: check out clojure.lang.Reflector for handy utility methods.
14:44	amalloy	hiredman: well, depends what you mean. they all support newInstance, but they don't all have a no-arg ctor
14:45	hiredman	which is what I mean
14:45	KirinDave	It'd be an error if they didn't have a no-arg ctor.
15:04	fliebel	How do I run java with the cake cp?
15:07	jjido	Can someone help me with TWAIN-SANE? I installed all the packages, I have the preferences pane but no SANE button in Image Capture
15:08	stuartsierra	jjido: I think you've got the wrong channel.
15:08	Raynes	I think you've got the wrong universe.
15:08	jjido	stuartsierra: well observed.
15:09	jjido	Raynes: what is yours?
15:12	ninjudd	fliebel: what do you mean by that?
15:18	fliebel	ninjudd: I need to do something like java -jar -cp some:jars:in:my:project some.class, but doing so manually is painful and unsafe, because I use some snapshots in deps.
15:18	ninjudd	fliebel: just build an uberjar
15:18	ninjudd	or you can use 'cake bin' to create a standalone executable
15:19	fliebel	Fair point… So I just do java -jar my-project.jar some.class
15:20	ninjudd	fliebel: if you want to use -jar, you need a main class
15:20	ninjudd	just add ':main namespace' to your project.clj
15:20	ninjudd	and add a -main function to that namespace
15:20	fliebel	ninjudd: some.class needs it right? Not my core ns.
15:21	ninjudd	your main function can be in any namespace you want, but you can only have one per project
15:21	bytecolor	import choco.Choco; => (ns choco-tut (:import (choco Choco))) ; is this a correct translation from Java to clojure?
15:22	chouser	so, what's the state of the art for maven/lazy-test integration?
15:22	tonyl	bytecolor: it looks like a good import to me
15:22	chouser	stuartsierra: oh, hi
15:23	technomancy	bytecolor: should be choco.bo; kupo!
15:23	technomancy	(not really)
15:23	dmart__	chocobo.. wasn't that a bird in some video game?
15:24	tonyl	sounds like an incantation lol
15:24	stuartsierra	chouser: hi.
15:25	stuartsierra	Lazytest has a Maven plugin of its own now.
15:25	chouser	ah, I see it.
15:25	bytecolor	I'm trying to access a method of Choco: (.makeIntVar Choco "foo" 0 3) ; IllegalArgumentException No matching method found: makeIntVar for class java.lang.Class clojure.lang.Reflector.invokeMatchingMethod (Reflector.java:50)
15:25	chouser	1.0.1-SNAPSHOT
15:25	stuartsierra	yse
15:25	stuartsierra	yes
15:25	stuartsierra	1.0.0 release will also work
15:26	stuartsierra	There's no direct dependency between the plugin and the library version.
15:27	nickik	stuartsierra, could you tell what the stat on the clojure conj videos is?
15:27	chouser	stuartsierra: should I mention the test goal in the plugin config?
15:27	tonyl	bytecolor: have you try separating the ns and import statement?
15:27	stuartsierra	chouser: test is a phase, not a goal, and yes
15:28	bytecolor	tonyl: hrm, no
15:28	tonyl	like (ns choco-tut) (import '(choco Choco)) (.makeIntVar Choco "foo" 0 3)
15:29	stuartsierra	chouser: the sample-maven-project module shows you how to set it up.
15:29	tonyl	if makeIntVar is static you can use (Choco/makeIntVar "foo" 0 3) to
15:29	chouser	stuartsierra: ah, thanks.
15:29	mduerksen	i'm just wondering: does anyone use a infix macro? i built mine because some math forms are really more readable, but interestingly i don't use a often as i thought i would at the beginning. i'm quite new to lisp, is it the case that after some time, one can read prefix-math just as well?
15:30	stuartsierra	chouser: So are you actually using lazytest?
15:30	chouser	stuartsierra: about to
15:30	stuartsierra	cool
15:30	chouser	stuartsierra: should I not?
15:30	tonyl	bytecolor: if not, it seems like a reflection problem
15:30	bytecolor	I don't know if it's static or not, there is not instance of Choco. I'm using my C++ understanding of 'static' here. I'm Java stupid.
15:30	stuartsierra	chouser: no, just curious, haven't heard from many people
15:30	chouser	we've got new code, and need unit tests. I'd hate to use clojure.test since it's creator has abandoned it. :-)
15:31	chouser	hm, we're not on clojure 1.3 yet. might be a problem.
15:31	bytecolor	tonyl: same error if I separate the two
15:31	raek	mduerksen: incanter (a statistics lib) provides an infix macro, as people seems to prefer the usual notation for mathematic expressions
15:31	chouser	mainly ring's fault.
15:32	tonyl	bytecolor: it seems like a reflection problem, based on that error
15:32	tonyl	from the arguments that makeIntVar needs
15:32	chouser	mduerksen: that experience is common, I believe. by the time one knows lisp well enough to write an infix macro, one has already begun to find it less attractive.
15:32	bytecolor	tonyl: is that something I can work around?
15:32	tonyl	sure
15:32	tonyl	what is the signature of that makeIntVar method?
15:32	chouser	mduerksen: http://www.fogus.me/fun/unfix/
15:32	clojurebot	#<RuntimeException java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.Exception: 503>
15:32	bytecolor	tonyl: you mean the way in which the args are overloaded?
15:33	tonyl	yeah
15:33	bytecolor	ah
15:33	bytecolor	tonyl: three overloaded methods, second var differs, int, List<Integer>, int[]
15:34	bytecolor	second argument, that is
15:34	tonyl	so the second argumend can accept int or a list of ints or an array
15:35	bytecolor	yes
15:35	tonyl	the thing is that clojure's ints are javas Integers
15:35	tonyl	or in ver 1.3 would be Longs
15:36	bytecolor	I'm using 1.3
15:36	tonyl	ok so they are Longs I believe
15:36	mduerksen	raek, chouser: thank you. i think i will use infix occasionally, when it comes to bigger and more nested math.
15:36	tonyl	you need to convert them to primative int
15:37	bytecolor	ah, with a simple cast?
15:37	tonyl	or typehint them
15:38	tonyl	like ^int val, ^int val2
15:38	bytecolor	and yes, I'm clojure stupid as well ;) But I will learn clojure!
15:38	bytecolor	ok
15:38	tonyl	It gets interesting when you are mingling with the host too
15:40	bytecolor	hrm, the call is (.makeIntVar Choco (str "cell" j) 1 (* n n)), so the last two forms would need to be cast to int
15:41	bytecolor	^int val, is that the same as adding meta data?
15:41	bytecolor	or just looks the same
15:41	amalloy	bytecolor: it is the same
15:41	tonyl	you add the meta data
15:41	amalloy	&(meta ^String [])
15:41	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:42	amalloy	&(let [^String x []] (meta x))
15:42	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:42	amalloy	hm
15:42	raek	&(meta ' ^String [])
15:42	sexpbot	⟹ nil
15:42	amalloy	well, it's there somewhere :P
15:42	tonyl	&(let [x ^String []] (meta #'x))
15:42	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve var: x in this context
15:43	raek	aren't you adding metadata to the code literal rather than the value?
15:43	tonyl	yeah, but helps with reflection
15:43	raek	&(meta (with-meta [] {:tag String}))
15:43	sexpbot	⟹ {:tag java.lang.String}
15:50	bytecolor	hrm so I'd have to do: ^int (* 1)
15:51	bytecolor	meeting time. I'll get back to this in a bit. Thanks for the suggestions.
15:52	arohner	has anyone used jclouds blobstore successfully?
15:55	hugod	arohner: I have, and know of several others
15:56	arohner	hugod: it used to work for me, running an older beta (3? 4?), now beta 6 through 8 are blowing up for me, just doing 'hello world' on s3
15:56	arohner	"Caused by: java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: com.google.common.base.Joiner.on(C)Lcom/google/common/base/Joiner;"
15:58	amalloy	arohner: that's java's linkage error: some class was built against a different jar version than it's being run against
15:59	arohner	ok. What can I do about it?
16:01	amalloy	usually i curl up into a ball and cry
16:02	amalloy	i don't know anything about your app, but you could look and see what jars on your build path and class path have com.google.common packages in them, and see if there are differences
16:03	hugod	I would agree, sounds like some sort of dependency issue - you might run mvn dependency:tree and see what is using the google libs
16:05	arohner	amalloy, hugod: thanks. That fixed it
16:05	arohner	turns out, infer pulls in some google collections
16:08	bytecolor	(with-meta 1 {:tag int}) => ClassCastException, can't cast Long to IObj. Why is it an IObj and not clojure.lang.Integer?
16:09	tonyl	the arguments are flipped
16:10	tonyl	but a sole 1 can't be cast
16:10	tonyl	i mean type hinted like that
16:11	amalloy	&(supers IObj)
16:11	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: IObj in this context
16:11	amalloy	&(supers clojure.lang.IObj)
16:11	sexpbot	⟹ #{clojure.lang.IMeta}
16:11	amalloy	&(supers Integer)
16:11	sexpbot	⟹ #{java.lang.Number java.io.Serializable java.lang.Object java.lang.Comparable}
16:11	amalloy	bytecolor: ints can't hold metadata
16:11	chouser	stuartsierra: lazytest:watch is awefully slick
16:11	bytecolor	ah
16:12	stuartsierra	chouser: thanks!
16:14	tonyl	bytecolor you could use (int 1)
16:14	arohner	bytecolor: when type hinting numbers, the hint goes on the symbol, rather than the object
16:15	tonyl	scratch my last advice, that won't help reflection on that overloaded method
16:15	tonyl	you are better of saving the value and type hinted it
16:15	bytecolor	tonyl: that's what I'm about to try
16:17	fliebel	Yay, that was easy(er than I expected): atom-style couch updates: https://github.com/pepijndevos/couch-atom
16:21	amalloy	fliebel: neat. you might want to tone down the warning about regular atoms: they'll only suffer in performance if the caller uses couch-atom.iatom/swap! instead of clojure.core/swap!
16:21	arohner	grr, now blobstore is claiming that my data already in S3 fails the naming conventions
16:22	fliebel	amalloy: True...
16:28	hiredman	arohner: s3 zones are apparently fragmented about allowed names
16:29	arohner	hiredman: yes, but jclouds is failing when I call (containers) on data that's already in S3
16:29	arohner	I call (containers), and then jclouds throws an exception and tells me my input data is invalid
16:30	hiredman	ah, well, thats jclouds for you
16:30	arohner	hiredman: yeah. Just one of those days where everything's broken
16:32	bytecolor	can't type hint a local
16:32	amalloy	arohner: good news! if ##(+ 2 2) is 4, then at least arithmetic isn't broken...waits for sexpbot's result
16:32	sexpbot	⟹ 4
16:32	tonyl	bytecolor: what do you mean a local?
16:33	hiredman	we've stopped using jclouds for storage and ended up writing our own api which ended up looking sort of like https://github.com/hiredman/cellar (surprise surprise)
16:33	amalloy	&(let [^String x 10] (.length x))
16:33	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.String
16:33	amalloy	&(let [x 10] (.length x))
16:33	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching field found: length for class java.lang.Integer
16:34	bytecolor	tonyl: well I was trying to store the literal 1: (let [x 1] ...) then type hint the x in the expression
16:34	amalloy	bytecolor: i just type-hinted the local 10, and you can tell it works because i get different exceptions. what do you think you should be able to do that isn't working
16:34	hiredman	and I consequently haven't done any further work on cellar
16:34	bytecolor	(let [x 1] ^int x) or (let [x 1] (with-meta x {:tag Integer}))
16:35	arohner	hiredman: does it work?
16:35	amalloy	bytecolor: but neither of those should work
16:35	arohner	hiredman: or, how crazy do I have to be to use it? :-)
16:35	amalloy	with-meta is trying to tag the value 1, not the variable x
16:36	amalloy	^int x inside the let body is...probably trying to do: ((int)new Integer(1))
16:37	hiredman	arohner: cellar? uh, pretty crazy, I think you should at least be using jets3t, I think the s3 support in cellar is just using the s3 http api
16:37	hiredman	and be sure to handle cases where talking to s3 fails (happens more often then you'd think, even from ec2)
16:38	bytecolor	bbl
16:39	hugod	hiredman: I am sure adrian would like to hear your issues with jclouds in #jclouds
16:42	hiredman	hugod: we don't have any issues anymore
16:42	hugod	hiredman: :) I understood that
17:04	ihodes	ure
17:04	ihodes	woops
17:06	ihodes	is anyone familiar with getting slime (specifically, slime-repl) working with swank-clojure without using ELPA?
17:08	rata_	ihodes: you can use lein swank
17:09	ihodes	rata_: i do use lein swank, the issue is getting my slime-repl connected to my running swank server. slime itself is connected, but i don't know how to access the slime-repl
17:10	raek	hrm. when using ELPA, I think that can happen if you install slime but not slime-repl
17:10	rata_	that's right... do you have slime-repl installed?
17:11	raek	the repl is supposed to turn up in slime-repl-clojure
17:11	ihodes	i do have it installed, and i have it (require 'slime-repl) in an init file
17:11	ihodes	but when i start slime (connect it to swank with slime-connect in emacs) the repl doesn't start
17:12	raek	one thing you could try is to install an older version of slime
17:12	ihodes	and if i start the repl on its own, i get a weird prompt
17:12	ihodes	i'm using Phil's modified version of slime and slime-repl
17:12	rata_	ihodes: try with (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) in your emacs init file
17:13	ihodes	oh sweet, that appeared to work! thanks. let's see if the rest does now :)
17:17	ihodes	rata_: excellent! thanks so much. i just don't like relying on huge software i don't quite understand more than i need to…e.g. ELPA.
17:17	rata_	=)
17:18	ihodes	rata_: one final question, if you will: i get this error when i do "slime-connect": Versions differ: nil (slime) vs. 20100404 (swank). Continue? (y or n)
17:20	amalloy	add to .emacs: (setq slime-protocol-version 'ignore)
17:21	rata_	mmm.. I didn't know that one :)
17:22	amalloy	curiously it works on my home machine but not my work machine; i imagine it's an ordering problem - need it before or after something in my .emacs. i don't care enough to track it down, though, so no advice from me on that score
17:23	technomancy	package.el is part of Emacs now... so you pretty much have to bite the bullet and get comfy relying on huge software you don't understand.
17:23	technomancy	nobody understands all of Emacs
17:23	ihodes	technomancy: is it? part of 24?
17:24	technomancy	ya
17:24	ihodes	amalloy: thanks!
17:24	technomancy	http://bit.ly/pkg-el
17:24	brehaut	technomancy: is that the elpa stuff?
17:25	ihodes	technomancy: in that case, i'll wait until 24 is out to learn to love the bomb ;)
17:25	ihodes	unless it's out!?
17:26	ihodes	cemerick: such an emacs-hater :P which IDE are you using?
17:26	chouser	org.apache.maven.plugin.MojoExecutionException: Clojure failed.
17:26	chouser	at com.theoryinpractise.clojure.AbstractClojureCompilerMojo.callClojureWith(AbstractClojureCompilerMojo.java:429)
17:26	cemerick	ihodes: shockingly, eclipse + ccw
17:26	rata_	technomancy: do you know a possible reason why "lein compile" doesn't compile my deps into classes/ ? (but it does in the other computers I'm using)
17:26	cemerick	chouser: surely there's a final cause floating around
17:27	Raynes	chouser: You didn't add enough Mojo to your Mojo, dawg.
17:27	chouser	cemerick: that was the root cause. final exception: org.apache.maven.lifecycle.LifecycleExecutionException: Clojure failed.
17:27	rata_	*using it
17:27	chouser	at org.apache.maven.lifecycle.DefaultLifecycleExecutor.executeGoals(DefaultLifecycleExecutor.java:583)
17:28	cemerick	chouser: rerun with -X
17:28	technomancy	rata_: probably lein issue #141; working around a bug in clojure.
17:30	chouser	cemerick: what do you want from that?
17:30	chouser	presumably it's from this clause: if (status != 0) { throw new MojoExecutionException("Clojure failed."); }
17:30	cemerick	chouser: you should see a more useful root cause in there
17:30	cemerick	oh, bugger
17:31	cemerick	chouser: Assuming that's from c-m-p source, your next step is to throttle talios next time you see him ;-)
17:31	cemerick	chouser: if you like, go ahead and gist the whole mess of garbage you just got dumped with
17:31	rata_	technomancy: thanks! =) :keep-non-project-classes true solved the problem
17:32	chouser	cemerick: let me double-check my plugin version number. 1.3.6 ?
17:33	cemerick	chouser: 1.3.7 is current
17:33	technomancy	rata_: in general shipping the .class files of your dependencies is not a good idea though. (modulo the protocol thing =\)
17:33	cemerick	though I don't expect that you'll see any difference with it vs. 1.3.6
17:40	chouser	cemerick: meh. Not sure I'm allowed to paste this.
17:41	chouser	shoot. well, I've got to run now anyway.
17:41	cemerick	chouser: launch codes and everything, huh? How about just the part after where it starts the clojure:foo stuff.
17:43	chouser	hm, found the java command line it's apparently trying to run
17:43	chouser	that runs fine, exit status 0
17:44	chouser	ok, that's all the time I have. thanks for offering to help
17:44	arkh_	anybody know of anything that can receive/send with linux netfilter NFQUEUE from java (clojure)?
17:44	arkh_	goog gave no joy on that search
17:56	rata_	technomancy: I'm not shipping them, I just want them in the classes dir because so it's easier to set the classpath when calling my AOT-compiled files
17:57	rata_	*running
18:20	joshua__	Hi again. I'm using enlive for scraping right now and I found that I was using (first (:content (first [selector-goes-here]))) so frequently that I made a function fcontentf. Thing is it feels like grabbing the content and the like might be the sort of thing that is built into the library. My question: Is there a way to grab the content of the first selection easily (or any helper functions you think I should know about)?
18:23	amalloy	joshua__: i know nothing about enlive, but if you actually wrote the function out as a defn, let me suggest something like (def fcontentf (comp first :content first vector))
18:24	amalloy	or something like that
18:24	joshua__	`(doc comp)
18:24	amalloy	(since i'm not sure what [selector-goes-here] means - is the [] a vector?
18:24	amalloy	&(doc comp)
18:24	sexpbot	⟹ "([f] [f g] [f g h] [f1 f2 f3 & fs]); Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the composition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, applies the rightmost of fns to the args, the next fn (right-to-left) to the result, etc."
18:25	joshua__	Oh, that is nice.
18:25	joshua__	yes
18:25	joshua__	[] is the vector.
18:25	amalloy	&((comp inc inc inc inc) 1)
18:25	sexpbot	⟹ 5
18:25	joshua__	That is a cool function.
18:25	joshua__	It reminds me a lot of ->.
18:26	raek	joshua__: this is what I often end up with: https://gist.github.com/645239
18:26	amalloy	joshua__: functional programming is full of em!
18:26	amalloy	-> is very nice too, but as a macro you can't use it in the same places
18:26	raek	(all-text (first (html/select node [:p])))
18:26	joshua__	raek: that looks like where I'm headed too atm.
18:26	joshua__	ty for the suggestion.
18:26	amalloy	&(#(-> % inc inc inc) 1) :P
18:26	sexpbot	⟹ 4
18:27	cky	$source comp
18:27	sexpbot	comp is http://is.gd/isOeP
18:28	amalloy	you can implement comp using just reduce, which is a fun exercise
18:28	cky	amalloy: You mean like http://refactormycode.com/codes/836? ;-)
18:29	cky	amalloy: (Disclosure: I wrote that code.)
18:31	cky	The interestingness with Scheme is that you can return multiple values, so, a true composition operator would have to handle that case, and call the next function in the chain with the right number of arguments.
18:31	cky	i.e., if you do (compose f g), and g returns 3 values, then it should call f with 3 arguments.
18:42	gfrlog	lein repl doesn't work -- is this because everybody uses emacs and so I'm the only one who would notice?
18:43	amalloy	gfrlog: lein repl requires a project, last i checked. are you inside a lein project when you run this?
18:43	jcromartie	I use lein repl
18:43	jcromartie	constantly
18:44	technomancy	gfrlog: there were issues with earlier releases, but I'm not aware of anything outstanding in 1.4
18:44	jcromartie	lein repl should work without a project.clj
18:44	technomancy	that said, I don't know anyone personally who uses it, so there is an element of what you're suggesting. =)
18:44	gfrlog	amalloy: I am inside a project, and it's ironic you say that because I often run it outside a project
18:45	gfrlog	technomancy: I had 1.3 and things were fine (but old), and I tried downloading 1.4, which is when I started having trouble. It says it can't connect
18:45	amalloy	see my careful disclaimer: "last i checked" :P
18:45	gfrlog	it is a very good disclaimer
18:45	scottj	anyone have fast test running happening on save with lein?
18:46	technomancy	gfrlog: interesting; guess we need an issue for that. haven't heard of that problem before
18:46	gfrlog	technomancy: this is what I'm getting http://codepad.org/l3L4NVhe
18:46	gfrlog	where do issues go?
18:47	technomancy	scottj: with clojure-test-mode C-c C-, saves, so you basically have it there with swank
18:48	technomancy	gfrlog: github tracker
18:54	gfrlog	technomancy: so "lein repl" works fine outside the project. Were there any breaking changes to project.clj or anything else?
18:57	technomancy	gfrlog: I don't know what's in your project.clj
18:58	gfrlog	I'll keep poking at it and file the issue if I can't figure it out
19:00	technomancy	it could be that the repl server is just taking too long to start and needs its timeout lengthened
19:01	technomancy	the repl task launches a socket server; so as a workaround you could telnet to it in another window
19:01	scottj	technomancy: nice, I guess I'm ok with going to the test buffer to run them. Have you hooked up difftest or anything to get better error messages in C-c ' or in repl?
19:02	technomancy	scottj: yeah, difftest works great.
19:03	scottj	C-c ' or repl? I have difftest working on lein test
19:04	gfrlog	technomancy: I bet it's that; My code has a database connection that can't be reached locally, so that might be the root cause
19:06	technomancy	connecting to a DB at the top-level should be avoided
19:08	gfrlog	technomancy: noted; thanks for the help
19:12	scottj	technomancy: ^?
19:13	ohpauleez	Raynes: Have you considered renaming "show-issues" to "list-issues" in the github api
19:13	ohpauleez	to match the endpoint api name
19:13	Raynes	ohpauleez: A lot of those names leave a lot to be desired. I've been meaning to go through and clean up the names and make them more consistent, but I've also been meaning to drop 50 pounds and learn to fly airplanes.
19:14	ohpauleez	Raynes: I'll fork and pull request, I'm going to be dorking around with the api to make a visualize tool in the next few days
19:15	Raynes	ohpauleez: That would be great! Let me know if you run into any significant bugs. A lot of the more esoteric API calls haven't been tested.
19:15	ohpauleez	will do
19:16	jcromartie	let's say I have a defmulti in one .clj file, and I have a bunch of defmethods in other namespaces, and so the defmethod files need to require the defmulti file
19:17	jcromartie	I guess I can't include all of the defmethod files from the defmulti file?
19:24	ohpauleez	jcromartie: Is the problem that you want to have all the defmethods written on other files, but available in the file where the defmulti appears?
19:24	jcromartie	yeah
19:24	jcromartie	although it's not really necessary
19:25	ohpauleez	jcromartie: Well, if you need it, checkout: https://github.com/ztellman/potemkin
19:25	ohpauleez	it gives you a "import-fn"
19:26	ohpauleez	if you can get around not using it, it's always nice not to have an extra dependency\
19:49	jcromartie	I just don't "get" code organization in clojure
19:49	jcromartie	or, in general
19:49	gtrak	namespaces?
19:49	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
19:49	gtrak	thanks clojurebot
19:49	jcromartie	:)
19:49	gtrak	haha
19:49	jcromartie	yeah
19:49	jcromartie	I understand namespaces
19:49	jcromartie	and java packages
19:50	jcromartie	and anything else you want to call them
19:50	jcromartie	but the general principles behind building them are lost on me
19:50	jcromartie	I guess because I haven't written enough large projects, but I want to try to split things up anyway since it sounds like a good idea
19:50	jcromartie	so I just mess things up in the end
19:50	jcromartie	because it's not really driven by necessity
19:51	gtrak	how do they do it in lisp?
19:51	gtrak	i'm really new to clojure, so I can't help so much, just asking :-)
19:51	jcromartie	I dunno
19:52	jcromartie	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/73045/whats-the-best-way-to-organize-code http://www.hanselman.com/blog/HowDoYouOrganizeYourCode.aspx
19:52	jcromartie	hmm, never mind, the hanselman link is junk
19:55	jcromartie	and stack overflow
19:55	jcromartie	NOTE TO SELF: don't paste links before reading them
19:55	gtrak	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/329221/medium-size-clojure-sample-application
19:56	jcromartie	here we go http://stackoverflow.com/questions/670948/how-to-organize-packages-and-prevent-dependency-cycles
19:59	gtrak	that's not really clojure-specific tho
20:01	jcromartie	no
20:01	jcromartie	but I'm missing the more abstract concepts
20:03	jcromartie	ok, focus time
20:03	jcromartie	bye
20:03	auser	later
20:23	brehaut	Is anybody willing to critique some noob code?
20:24	gtrak	sure
20:24	gtrak	but i'm a noob too
20:24	brehaut	heh
20:24	NoobFukaire	I'm a noob as well
20:25	brehaut	https://github.com/brehaut/necessary-evil/tree/master/src/necessary_evil
20:25	brehaut	ignore core.clj
20:40	pppaul	i don't know what it is trying to do?
20:44	brehaut	pppaul: my project?
20:46	pppaul	yeah
20:46	pppaul	it's easier to ask people to review a snip of code and state an objected of what it is supposed to do
20:48	brehaut	pppaul: im fine with clj in the very small, its at a slightly larger scope that i need some help with. anyway. methodcall and methodresponse implement serialization and deserialization of xml-rpc's dodgy wire format
20:49	brehaut	pppaul: parse and unparse are the entry point functions in both methodcall.clj and methodresponse.clj
20:50	brehaut	pppaul: if you are unfamiliar with xml-rpc think of it as lame json
20:51	pppaul	love the json
20:51	pppaul	XML-RPC like SOAP?
20:51	brehaut	its a precursor to soap
20:51	brehaut	the creator of xml-rpc was an early contributer to soap
20:52	brehaut	its also about as underspecified as soap is over specified
20:54	brehaut	my apathy to the format has grown to quite strong dislike as ive worked on the project
20:56	pppaul	well
20:56	pppaul	i looked at it
20:56	pppaul	seems easy to read
20:57	brehaut	thanks for taking the effort to do that
20:57	scottj	ditto your body placement on same line as params is odd though
20:57	pppaul	personally, i think xml and code dealing with xml is not as sexy as json
20:58	pppaul	anyway, i tried doing xml stuff a little while ago, and my code was a mess compared to yours. so i'll use it as ref next time i need to work with xml
20:59	brehaut	pppaul: sweet
20:59	brehaut	scottj: you mean like [arg] (....) in defns?
21:01	scottj	brehaut: yeah don't necessarily dislike it, but it does limit indentation later
21:02	brehaut	scottj: ok. i've been a bit unsure about some of that stuff style-wise. i clearly need to go look at some more idiomatic code
21:05	scottj	there is a certain attractiveness to there being whitespace below the arglist. the only other formatting thing I saw is most clojure code doesn't have columns of left justified stuff except at the beginning of a line. I personally like the look of it but it can be hard to be consistent and most programmers probably don't know how to do it automatically in their editor
21:06	brehaut	scottj: one thing i like about the [arg] (body) thing is it makes 1 arity functions consistent with 2+ arity funs
21:06	brehaut	scottj: im not sure what you mean by the left alignment, can you give me an example?
21:08	scottj	when you put more than one space between two forms
21:08	brehaut	oh right
21:09	brehaut	im sure i read a quote about that in the Joy of Clojure actually. really wish i had my PDF on this computer
21:12	brehaut	cheers for the thoughts anyway
21:21	chouser	clojure-maven-plugin is failing, but refusing to say why
21:21	technomancy	chouser: you're making me all nostalgic!
21:22	chouser	I fetched the source to add debugging messages, but I can't build it
21:23	chouser	rather frustrating
21:24	hiredman	given that talios was in here the other night and seemed to think that ^File[] a was a type hint that a is an array of files...
21:25	chouser	the antlr maven plugin is fantastic. saved so much manual effort, once we found the latest version
22:08	auser	hola
22:08	auser	so I'm having a bunch of issues trying to get a library into my leiningin project
22:08	tonyl	hola
22:09	auser	I need some insight... I'm trying to work with Hazelcast, which is not in clojars... so I downloaded the .jar and placed it in my lib/ dir. however, when I import it in the file, I get an error message (blech)
22:09	auser	hi tonyl :)
22:10	auser	a ClassNotFoundException, of course
22:10	auser	using: (:import '(com.hazelcast.core Hazelcast Topic MessageListener)), that is
22:12	auser	I'm sure someone has had to deal with this in the past
22:13	tonyl	I don't use lein
22:13	tonyl	sorry can't be much of help
22:13	auser	hm, do you use a project.clj?
22:14	tonyl	nope
22:14	auser	do you use maven?
22:14	tonyl	never used java or lisp so I don't know java environment staff
22:14	auser	ahh
22:14	tonyl	I need to learn them though
22:14	tonyl	*stuff
22:15	tonyl	but there are a lot of capable people around here that know about this
22:15	auser	:)
22:15	auser	hope so
22:17	auser	alright, be back after I bike home
22:48	rata_	auser: ping!
22:48	auser	pong
22:48	auser	holla
22:48	rata_	hola
22:49	rata_	ok, to include a library that's not in clojars in your project file you have to do the following
22:49	auser	[oh you are a life-saver]
22:49	rata_	first, include it as a dep even if it's not in clojars and then run lein deps... it won't finish, but will say something interesting
22:50	auser	alrighty... I think I did that and got scared from the error message
22:50	rata_	for example, I have [clojure.data.finger-tree "0.0.1-SNAPSHOT"] in my project.clj, even when clojure.data.finger-tree isn't in clojars
22:50	auser	ah, okay, then I'll add that back in
22:53	auser	so then I download it and put it in the lib/ directory?
22:53	rata_	no
22:53	auser	oh, okay
22:54	rata_	btw, have you read the FAQ here? https://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
22:54	rata_	well, the error message includes a mvn invocation
22:54	rata_	that you must run to install the library in your maven local repository
22:54	auser	ah
22:55	auser	how will that work for collaboration?
22:55	rata_	you just have to replace the /path/to/file with the path to the jar file you downloaded
22:55	auser	everyone will have to run that, I suppose
22:55	technomancy	auser: hazelcast is in maven central; it doesn't need to be in clojars: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/inspect-pom/com/hazelcast/hazelcast/1.9/hazelcast-1.9.pom
22:56	auser	oh, I searched clojars.org
22:57	auser	rata_: for the future, run the maven command and install it that way, technomancy thanks for the note... have you used hazelcast?
22:57	auser	out of curiosity
22:57	cemerick	everything in maven central is always available to lein and cake builds
22:57	technomancy	auser: just trivial messing around
22:57	auser	interestin cemerick... I can add that to the repositories in the project.clj, right?
22:58	cemerick	auser: it's included implicitly
22:58	auser	interesting.
22:59	cemerick	auser, rata_: if you need to use jars that aren't in clojars or maven central, then you really should have a nexus or artifactory install for your team/organization. Barring that, you can abuse e.g. github as a maven repo. That's bad form, but will get you through if you absolutely can't be bothered with a proper repository: http://cemerick.com/2010/08/24/hosting-maven-repos-on-github/
23:00	auser	lol, alright... I appreciate the note about it, I'll read that, but you were definitely right, it's included just like that
23:03	technomancy	cemerick: have you tried using s3?
23:04	cemerick	as a mvn repo?
23:04	technomancy	right
23:04	technomancy	there's a wagon for it
23:04	cemerick	no, never thought of that
23:04	technomancy	I haven't looked into it, but apparently it's a thing
23:05	technomancy	I mean I haven't tried it for myself
23:05	cemerick	as in, useful in interesting ways, or a clever hack?
23:05	technomancy	somewhere in between, I guess. =)
23:06	cemerick	heh
23:06	technomancy	slightly less hacky than github
23:06	cemerick	I feel just a little bad about putting that github hack out there, as I've gotten a fair number of tweets from people saying they're using it.
23:07	cemerick	I suppose it's a small step up from local installs and jamming things into clojars surreptitiously, but…
23:08	cemerick	There was a fellow who was working on a hosted mvn repo service. Seems like a more and more of a good idea, as things go along.
23:10	technomancy	cloudbees hosted hudson plus hosted mvn or mvn-on-s3 would be remarkably simple for folks who need private repos.
23:10	technomancy	I guess the main disadvantage of s3 is it's harder to provide lucene indexes
23:10	cemerick	True; the trickier part is that you couldn't update it atomically.
23:11	cemerick	Not that people would generally care. :-/
23:11	technomancy	hm; right
23:11	cemerick	yeah, pair that with downstream proxying repos, and you could be in for a world of hurt, actually.
23:12	technomancy	well usually there's not much downstream of a private repo
23:12	cemerick	ah, private, no; presumably plenty of people would like to get their stuffs into a publicly-available repo, but aren't interested in central's hurdles
23:13	technomancy	isn't sonatype pretty good for that?
23:14	cemerick	It's certainly not difficult to get access to OSS' releases repo, etc.
23:14	cemerick	But that still requires signing artifacts, interacting with nexus, etc.
23:14	cemerick	Totally doable, but surely not of interest to hobbyists, solopreneurs, etc.
23:16	rsh	is there a way in clojure to accept an arbitrary java string and eval it?
23:18	rata_	cemerick: having to install clojure.data.finger-tree in my local maven repository is, I hope, just a temporal solution until finger trees go into clojure.core or clojure.contrib
23:19	cemerick	rata_: finger trees will be in central as soon as chouser gets on the stick ;-)
23:19	tonyl	rsh: clojure uses java Strings so I would guess it does
23:19	tonyl	the tricky part is to get the string
23:19	cemerick	,(-> "(+ 1 2 3)" read-string eval)
23:19	clojurebot	DENIED
23:19	cemerick	feh
23:19	cemerick	rsh: ^^
23:20	rsh	so by an arbitrary java string, i meant to say a string with arbitrary java code :)
23:20	cemerick	ah-ha
23:20	cemerick	that's trickier
23:20	cemerick	nothing Clojure-specific. There's plenty of info on the web about runtime compilation and execution of Java code.
23:21	cemerick	rsh: a random google search result http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1064259/how-can-i-compile-and-deploy-a-java-class-at-runtime shrug
23:23	rsh	yeah, most info I have found make a runtime.exec call
23:23	rsh	which doesn't seem right to me to just run a small bit of code
23:25	rata_	cemerick: btw, what's a nexus or artifactory install?
23:32	rata_	I'm going to bed... see you guys
23:32	tonyl	laters
23:59	technomancy	so... making clojure.core/into work on strings... worth doing for symmetry's sake?