#clojure – 2010-10-16

2010-10-16

00:01	dpritchett	now i need to get emacs not to barf on cygwin symlinks
00:16	mabes	does clojure already have a map-tree like function? Something that does something like this: http://gist.github.com/629404
00:33	DanielGlauser	,(reduce and (map (fn [bool] bool)) (true true true))
00:33	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Can't take value of a macro: #'clojure.core/and
00:35	mabes	,(every? true? [true true true])
00:35	clojurebot	true
00:36	DanielGlauser	,(reduce + (map (fn [n] n) [1 2 3]))
00:36	clojurebot	6
00:36	DanielGlauser	Thanks mabes, I'll try that instead
00:37	mabes	DanielGlauser: actually, that is probably not what you want..
00:37	mabes	,(true? 1)
00:37	clojurebot	false
00:37	mabes	,(true? true)
00:37	clojurebot	true
00:38	mabes	unless you are only dealing with booleans..
00:39	DanielGlauser	In this case I am so I believe the every? example will work for me
00:39	DanielGlauser	Is the issue with (reduce + ...) vs. (reduce and ...) that "and" is a macro?
00:40	mabes	DanielGlauser: correct
00:43	DanielGlauser	mabes: Great, that was easy. Plugged into a larger example and it works like a charm.
00:44	DanielGlauser	mabes: Is there an easy way to query a function to find out if it is a macro?
00:45	mabes	if you say (doc and) it will tell you it is a macro...
00:45	mabes	,(doc and)
00:45	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x & next]); Evaluates exprs one at a time, from left to right. If a form returns logical false (nil or false), and returns that value and doesn't evaluate any of the other expressions, otherwise it returns the value of the last expr. (and) returns true."
00:45	mabes	well, in the repl it will
00:46	mabes	I'm not sure if there is other wise.. it seems like it would be on the meta data of the var
00:46	mabes	sorry, I don't really know
00:46	DanielGlauser	No worries, thank for your help
00:50	maravillas_	,(:macro (meta #'and))
00:50	clojurebot	true
00:51	maravillas_	There may be a better way, though.
00:52	maravillas	oh, mabes already pointed that out :)
00:56	mabes	I guess with #'and you could pass that to reduce as well if you really wanted to
00:57	mabes	apply would make more sense though
00:57	mabes	,(apply #'and [true 1 :foo])
00:57	clojurebot	:foo
01:10	DanielGlauser	,(reduce #'and (map (fn [bool] bool)) (true true true))
01:10	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$map
01:11	DanielGlauser	Oops, missed on the parens
01:11	DanielGlauser	,(reduce #'and (map (fn [bool] bool) (true true true)))
01:11	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Boolean cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
01:12	tufflax	'(true true true)
01:13	zkim	Hey Dan, you coming to the meetup on wed?
01:14	DanielGlauser	zkim: It's good to see you here. Not likely, with a newborn I think I'd better stay closer to home.
01:15	zkim	DanielGlauser: ah yeah, priorities and all :)
01:15	DanielGlauser	tufflax: Thanks, the problem with lists... No wonder why Rich added vectors to the language
01:15	tufflax	:p
01:15	DanielGlauser	,(reduce #'and (map (fn [bool] bool) [true true true]))
01:15	clojurebot	true
01:15	DanielGlauser	there we go
01:16	DanielGlauser	zkim: This has been my first chance to sneak off and do some coding. I feel a bit guilty. :)
01:17	maravillas	,(reduce #'and (map (fn [bool] bool) [true true false]))
01:17	clojurebot	true
01:17	zkim	DanielGlauser: ah the siren's call of Clojure
01:18	DanielGlauser	zkim: Do you think anyone else will be in town to lead the meeting?
01:19	zkim	DanielGlauser: I think lee and ben are coming, I'll send you directions to post to the mailing list
01:19	G0SUB	,(reduce #(assoc %1 %2 (inc (%1 %2 0))) {} [:a :a :b :b :b :c :d :e :e])
01:19	clojurebot	{:e 2, :d 1, :c 1, :b 3, :a 2}
01:19	zkim	DanielGlauser: I've been putting it off trying to get ClojureDocs into beta before the conj
01:20	G0SUB	zkim: hey, are you the creator of ClojureDocs?
01:20	DanielGlauser	zkim: Roger that! Good luck with ClojureDocs. I'll ask Lee to lead the meeting and Ben/Tyler as backups.
01:20	zkim	G0SUB: yeah, anything I can help you with?
01:21	zkim	DanielGlauser: sounds good
01:21	G0SUB	zkim: Hi, can I PM you?
01:21	zkim	G0SUB: sure
01:22	mabes	,(frequencies [:a :a :b :b :b :c :d :e :e])
01:22	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 3, :c 1, :d 1, :e 2}
01:22	mabes	^ G0SUB fyi..
01:23	G0SUB	mabes: yes, I am aware of that. thank you. I was just trying out clojurebot :)
01:23	mabes	am I wrong in thinking that `take` could be rewritten to use for instead of lazy-seq?
01:25	mabes	nm...
01:29	DanielGlauser	Seems like we could use a cookbook for idioms and functions...
01:30	zkim	DanielGlauser: yeah that would be really nice
01:30	zkim	DanielGlauser: maybe a future clojuredocs feature
01:40	Derander	DanielGlauser: it would be really really nice
02:07	defn	wow. strange loop was awesome.
02:08	defn	brian marick's TDD talk on clojure was cool, the cascalog talk was awesome, jim duey's conduit was really cool
02:10	zkim	defn: Yeah, was following the tweets, sounded like a great conf
02:10	defn	chouser's talk was awesome as well
02:10	zkim	defn: which testing lib did marick use?
02:10	defn	he wrote his own: midje
02:10	defn	if you use emacs lisp, check it out
02:10	defn	err emacs
02:11	zkim	defn: they gonna post any slides / videos?
02:11	defn	it was a pretty inexpensive ticket zkim
02:11	defn	so they only recorded some of it
02:11	zkim	ah
02:12	defn	there's some /amazing/ stuff
02:12	defn	a panel with alex payne, joshua bloch, douglas crockford, guy steele, and im forgetting the other guy
02:12	defn	about the future of programming languages
02:12	zkim	awesome
02:13	defn	douglas crockford's talk was hillarious at times, and deadly inspiring at others
02:13	defn	the nosql panel is also i think a must watch
02:13	defn	lots of pearls of wisdom there -- i have a lot of notes i need to convert to blog posts over the coming weeks
02:13	defn	@devn if you wanna know about them
02:14	zkim	yeah i'll check that out
02:15	zkim	hah 100k LOC for the mysql query parser
02:16	tufflax	What's happening here?
02:16	tufflax	,(reduce #'and [true false])
02:16	clojurebot	true
02:18	defn	zkim: yeah pretty amazing huh
02:19	defn	zkim: they were talking about how nosql databases have like...30k LoC for the entire package
02:19	hiredman	tufflax: and is not a function
02:20	tufflax	So why does it let me use it like that?
02:20	hiredman	because you are using the var #'
02:20	hiredman	clojure is not common lisp
02:20	hiredman	,(reduce + (range 10))
02:20	clojurebot	45
02:20	hiredman	no #'
02:21	zkim	,(apply #'and [true false])
02:21	clojurebot	true
02:22	hiredman	,(macroexpand '#'and)
02:22	clojurebot	(var and)
02:22	hiredman	if you want to know what means read the docs
02:23	shachaf	Wait, Clojure is a Lisp_2?
02:23	hiredman	no
02:23	hiredman	lisp 1
02:23	shachaf	Oh.
02:23	shachaf	Ah, I didn't read up far enough.
02:24	shachaf	zkim: Is that just the query parser or the optimizer too?
02:24	zkim	you mean hiredman?
02:25	shachaf	23:14 < zkim> hah 100k LOC for the mysql query parser
02:25	zkim	ah
02:25	zkim	one sec
02:25	zkim	http://twitter.com/#!/devn/status/27459419878
02:25	zkim	looks like just the parser
02:26	zkim	crazy
02:27	tufflax	Thanks hiredman, I'm gonna have to read more about clojure. For now my question is why doesn't reduce, apply, map, etc. allow macros as their first argument?
02:27	tufflax	don't*
02:28	hiredman	tufflax: because reduce is a function
02:28	shachaf	tufflax: How would that work?
02:28	hiredman	function application happens at run time
02:28	tufflax	shachaf hehe I'm not sure...
02:28	hiredman	macro expansion happens before compile time
02:29	tufflax	Ah, yes, ok... thank you again.
03:05	Derander	if I want to build a regex dynamically, how do I do this?
03:05	Derander	,(macroexpand #"")
03:05	clojurebot	#""
03:06	Derander	I can't just do #(str "foo" var) because then it gets all functiony on me
03:07	Derander	re-pattern!
03:31	Raynes	-> (class #"")
03:31	sexpbot	⟹ java.util.regex.Pattern
03:31	Raynes	-> (re-pattern "")
03:31	sexpbot	⟹ #""
03:31	Raynes	-> (class re-pattern "")
03:31	sexpbot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: core$class
03:31	Raynes	-> (class (re-pattern ""))
03:31	sexpbot	⟹ java.util.regex.Pattern
03:32	Raynes	Derander: re-pattern
03:32	Derander	yeah, I dug it up finally :-)
03:32	Derander	thank you though
03:32	Derander	I think what I really need to be using is an html/xml parsing library, though
03:44	kmc	#"" is a reader macro for regex literals?
03:49	G0SUB	kmc: yes.
03:50	G0SUB	kmc: #"[a-zA-Z0-9]+"
06:26	fhd	Hi. What's the best way to convert a struct to a map?
07:07	raek	fhd: a struct is a map
07:08	raek	you can always assoc on other keys than the special keys
07:10	raek	but to get a map of another type (hash-map, sorted-map, struct, record), you can use into
07:11	raek	,(let [m (into {} (sorted-map :a 1, :b 2, :c 3))] [(class m) m])
07:11	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}]
07:11	raek	,(let [m (into (hash-map) (sorted-map :a 1, :b 2, :c 3))] [(class m) m])
07:11	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap {:a 1, :b 2, :c 3}]
07:12	raek	hrm, yeah. small hash-maps use the array-map implementation...
07:18	fhd	raek: I see, thanks :) I actually tried that, but there was another issue so I misinterpreted the exception :(
07:21	fhd	What's the most common name to name a Clojure port of a library x? clojure-x, clj-x, x-clojure, x-clj or make something up that starts with "clo" like clox?
07:21	fhd	Looking at clojars.org, it seems to be clojure-x
07:23	jaley	hey guys - is it possible/easy to pass a collection to a function as its argument list vector without a macro? i.e. the same effect as an unquote splice.
07:24	jaley	for context, i want to pass an argument list to shell/sh
07:25	carkh	,(apply + [1 2 3])
07:25	clojurebot	6
07:26	jaley	but won't that call + multiple times?
07:26	G0SUB	carkh: use reduce instead.
07:26	jaley	sh has side effects - it calls the command i'm passing it
07:26	carkh	nope
07:26	G0SUB	carkh: better perf.
07:26	jaley	ah ok, cool thanks
07:26	carkh	G0SUB: i was answering jaley's question
07:26	G0SUB	jaley: (reduce + [1 2 3])
07:27	carkh	reduce will call + several times
07:27	G0SUB	carkh: sure. apply it is then.
07:27	G0SUB	carkh: take a look at the definition of the + function.
07:27	jaley	G0SUB: carkh: yeah got it, thanks guys
07:27	carkh	well yeah it depends on the function you call =P
07:27	carkh	buit it's not a property of apply to do so
07:27	G0SUB	carkh: :)
07:28	G0SUB	carkh: my statements are only valid for the combined usage of apply and +.
07:28	carkh	right
07:28	carkh	but (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6) does call + several times
07:28	carkh	and there's no apply
07:28	G0SUB	carkh: precisely.
07:28	carkh	i can nitpick too !
07:29	G0SUB	carkh: you are right!
07:29	carkh	=)
08:01	raichoo	Hi, is there a good pdf on clojure you guys can recommend?
08:06	lypanov	raichoo: i love joy of clojure.
08:06	raichoo	huh?
08:06	lypanov	but not free. dunno any good free ones. plenty of presentations tho
08:07	lypanov	the first chapter of the various ebooks is usually available for free.
08:07	raichoo	ah ok. ^^. I'm actually just searching for an offline reference to peek a little into the language.
08:07	lypanov	for device good at pdfs?
08:08	lypanov	if not, i'd say just wget the site or gen the documentation yourself.
08:08	AWizzArd	raichoo: you can download the manual (html) and code for offline fun.
08:08	lypanov	clojuredocs.org is great
08:10	lypanov	anyone bored, please upvote http://clojuredocs.uservoice.com/forums/64757-general/suggestions/896859-provide-a-way-to-create-and-be-able-to-synchronis?ref=title
08:11	raichoo	Usually I don't need offline references, but my new apartment still lacks an internet connection :/
08:11	fhd	I'm still not sure what to call my Clojure mustache library: clojure-mustache, clj-mustache or clostache? What'd you suggest?
08:11	lypanov	yay!
08:11	lypanov	fhd: library-lypanov-needed
08:11	fhd	lypanov: :P
08:11	lypanov	clostache is cute
08:12	fhd	Hm, I like it too. Not sure if it sounds silly :P
08:13	lypanov	tache is british slang for mustache... so yeah.. to me sounds completely normal
08:13	fhd	Cool, then I'll take it :)
08:14	fhd	lypanov: Do you still need the lib? I'm finished with version 0.1, although it doesn't support all of mustache
08:14	fhd	lypanov: I'm ATM in the middle of extracting it from my project
08:16	raek	fhd: fyi, there is a pretty widely known Clojure web lib called "Moustache", so I would vote for the "clostache" name. also, it sounds funnier. :)
08:17	fhd	raek: Yeah that's true, the moustache lib got my hopes up that I wouldn't have to do this :)
08:17	clojurebot	libraries is http://clojure.org/libraries
08:17	lypanov	fhd: ditto :(
08:18	raek	what is mustache for, btw?
08:18	fhd	raek: It's a template language
08:18	lypanov	like enlive but super simple
08:18	fhd	http://mustache.github.org
08:19	fhd	I wanted to use the mustache.java, a Java library, but it made me sick :P
08:19	lypanov	;) its pretty neat tho
08:19	raek	neat.
08:19	lypanov	i'd love something like that but in clojure
08:20	raichoo	I just downloaded the wiki, seems like a good start to dive into the language :)
08:20	raichoo	well actually just one page.
08:21	raek	some parts of the wikibook is somewhat outdated
08:22	raek	outdated, as in "out of fassion, due to recent additions", rather than "not working"
08:23	raichoo	I just need a little bit to get a hold of the way of thinking in clojure. I'm learning way to many languages this year anyway. As long as it covers the basics I'm happy ^^
08:25	jaley	should i need to add leiningen as a dependency in my project if I want to use some functions in leiningen.compile? the guidance for making plugins says not, but the jar is definitely not on my classpath :-s
08:26	raek	hrm, ok. the wikibook seems to have been updated with links to the newer getting-started pages
08:26	raek	wow. there's really a lot of text about the basics...
08:28	raek	jaley: plugins are ran in the lein clojure instance, which already has all the lein things on the classpath
08:28	raek	to access lein code in the project clojure instance, you'd have to add a dependency
08:30	raek	I haven't tried this, but I guess you could add [leiningen "1.3.1"] as a dep
08:31	raek	jaley: and the things your code does cannot be made as a leinginen plugin?
08:31	raek	(you don't need to make a separate project for the plugin. a file in src/leiningen/my_plugin.clj is sufficient.)
08:34	jaley	raek: my code is a leiningen plug-in, and it is within an existing project
08:35	jaley	raek: but it might be useful to others... so when (if..) it works i'll break it out to a seperate project and stick it on clojars probably
08:35	raek	then you should be able to run it with "lein my-plugin"
08:36	jaley	raek: the problem isn't running it actually, it's that i want to launch a sub-process with the project classpath settings
08:36	jaley	raek: leiningen.compile has a function, eval-in-project, which looks like it might work
08:37	raek	the lein swank plugin does something like that
08:37	raek	and lein repl, of course
08:37	jaley	raek: yeah it uses eval-in-project, that was hour i found it actually :)
08:38	jaley	raek: my problem is (use leiningen.compile) fails, no such class ...__init
08:38	jaley	raek: and i'm wondering if to fix that i have to ignore the advice about not marking leiningen as a dependency
08:39	raek	jaley: (use 'leiningen.compile)
08:39	raek	oh, but you shouldn't get the "no such class ...__init" error for that...
08:39	jaley	raek: sorry, that was a typing error
08:40	jaley	raek: it actually looks like (ns leiningen.axis (:use [leiningen.classpath :only [get-classpath]]))
08:41	jaley	raek: same error as with compile, i mean
08:41	jaley	raek: pretty sure this is what happens when the jar isn't on the classpath, right?
08:42	raek	yes, that error looks like a classpath error or a spelling error
08:42	jaley	hmm ok, i'll try adding it to dev-dependencies and see what happens
08:44	raek	jaley: http://gist.github.com/629745 this works for me
08:44	raek	no extras in project.clj
08:44	raek	also, there is a compile var in clojure.core, so you might want to require it or use+rename it instead
08:45	raek	it = leinginen.compile/compile
08:45	raek	lein foo => hello
08:45	jaley	it's leiningen.compile/eval-in-project i'm after
08:46	raek	oh. right.
08:47	jaley	yeah I pasted your gist into my repl and got the same error
08:47	raek	you cannot run it from the repl
08:47	raek	it is meant to be ran from "lein ..."
08:47	raek	since leiningen and you project might run on different clojure versions
08:49	raek	sorry, maybe I misunderstood the issue. you could try adding lein as a dependency and that should probably work
08:49	AWizzArd	When I have an EPL source, then I can not use GPL libs in it, cause EPL forces me to keep derivative work under the EPL, while GPL says it must be GPL. But is the other direction possible? When I have a GPLed program, can I then include EPLed code in it, for example linking libs like Clojure?
08:49	raek	but it isn't the way you usually make a lein plugin
08:50	jaley	raek: ah right. so I can't really develop a leiningen plug-in with swank easily?
08:51	raek	AWizzArd: GPL basically says that a project is a derivative work if it includes the GPL:ed code in the program code (including, using a GPL:ed library)
08:51	raek	and derivative works has to be under GPL, or something GPL-compatible
08:52	carkh	i thinkk the other way around is ok
08:52	raek	EPL says that a program that merely uses a EPL library is not derivative work of it
08:52	AWizzArd	Yes.
08:52	AWizzArd	So, using GPL stuff in my EPL code is no option.
08:52	carkh	so you can make a gpl program using clojure
08:52	AWizzArd	This is the point, that carkh mentions.
08:53	raek	so EPL code + GPL code is not possible, because of GPL's definition of derivative work
08:53	AWizzArd	right
08:53	AWizzArd	I agree with this.
08:53	raek	if I have understood this correctly
08:53	carkh	and yes, you cannot make an EPL program using GNU readline
08:53	AWizzArd	But GPL linking in EPL sounds okay.
08:53	AWizzArd	carkh: clisp :-)
08:53	carkh	=)
08:54	raek	GPL does not treat linking and modifications as separate things
08:54	raek	but the LGPL does
08:54	AWizzArd	And what is the difference between LGPL and the OpenJDK’s GPL+Linking Excetpion?
08:55	raek	I'm not aware of the latter
08:55	AWizzArd	The OpenJDK is GPLed, but it makes a linking exception. That is, programs that you wrote using the OpenJDK can be licenced as you wish, I think.
08:56	G0SUB	AWizzArd: basically it's an exception which applies to linked .class files.
08:56	G0SUB	AWizzArd: so using external java libs is OK.
08:56	raek	that sounds very much like the goal of LGPL
08:56	G0SUB	raek: yes, but made clearer in the context of java code.
08:56	AWizzArd	Funny that software experts today also need to be specialists in law :-)
08:57	G0SUB	there are many such exceptions, font exceptions are an example.
08:57	carkh	thanks to dear gpl =/
08:57	AWizzArd	Or Open Office dictionary files, which are GPL and not distributed with OO. One manually has to download them.
08:58	AWizzArd	G0SUB: oh really, nice.
08:58	G0SUB	people fail to understand the importance of GPL... they think it's a virus.
08:59	carkh	G0SUB: so do you still support the FSF views ? (everything should be gpl)
08:59	carkh	it was important to get the open source movement started i think
08:59	AWizzArd	EPL also survives.
08:59	carkh	but gpl is so restrictive =/
08:59	AWizzArd	It does not infect other modules, but won't die.
08:59	G0SUB	carkh: they have a strict stance because they have to.
08:59	carkh	and finally profiting mainly to big corporations
09:00	G0SUB	why on earth did Linux (the kernel) succeed when it was far inferior to *BSD back in the day?
09:00	G0SUB	why does Linux (the kernel) have so many awesome drivers?
09:00	carkh	why ?
09:00	lypanov	pragmatism
09:01	fhd	lypanov: I second that :)
09:01	carkh	wasn't it because it was selected as a base to the GNU ?
09:01	G0SUB	carkh: because many big corps (who otherwise would have leeched off linux) were forced to contribute their fixes back to linux.
09:01	raek	G0SUB: so, what holds about GPL + EPL? is it always impossible?
09:01	lypanov	it was just hard work on the part of the linux devels. nothing else.
09:01	G0SUB	carkh: not at all. there was no such official decision.
09:01	fhd	Pragmatism is pretty much the reason why Linux succeeded and Hurd is being rewritten again right now
09:02	G0SUB	fhd: it's linux vs freebsd not hurd
09:02	fhd	G0SUB: Yeah, but I had to mention Hurd today :)
09:02	G0SUB	fhd: heh.
09:02	lypanov	fhd: the hurd guys don't have time to code, they have to prune their beards.
09:02	fhd	G0SUB: Nah, I actually saw it as Linux VS GNU while idling
09:02	tensorpudding	FreeBSD and NetBSD had to be practically rewritten at the same time that Linux was getting popular
09:02	carkh	as a programmer (small freelance) i can't see how i would survive in a fully GPL world
09:03	G0SUB	fhd: rms has given up on hurd now and I agree with the decision.
09:03	G0SUB	carkh: you don't have to. just thank $deity that GPL is an option.
09:03	AWizzArd	G0SUB: so, what if I have a GPL program and want to use clojure.jar in it? Is this allowed?
09:03	G0SUB	carkh: don't use GPL if you don't like it, just don't spread the FUD.
09:04	fhd	Funny that you guys are discussing this right now, I was just wondering which license would be most appropriate for a Clojure lib. I usually go with LGPL
09:04	carkh	well i do thank deity that GPL exists, as i said it was instrumental
09:04	lypanov	fhd: net bsd every time.
09:04	lypanov	new* sorry
09:04	lypanov	(or better dual it)
09:05	carkh	i think rhickey made a very good decision going with EPL
09:05	lpetit	fhd: clojure's world is EPL's world :)
09:05	lypanov	thank $deity for clang and the death of gcc
09:05	G0SUB	AWizzArd: EPL would allow that.
09:05	fhd	carkh: http://github.com/clojure/clojure says its ASM
09:06	AWizzArd	Yes. The EPL seems to have no problems in being linked into a GPL projekt. So, from that perspective it sounds as if I may write GPLed clojure programs.
09:06	lypanov	fhd: it uses ASM
09:06	G0SUB	lypanov: I wouldn't say that. clang is owned by AAPL.
09:06	lypanov	oh get lost
09:06	AWizzArd	But I am not sure if there is something in the GPL that stops me from using clojure.jar and thus stop me from doing GPL clojure software.
09:07	G0SUB	lypanov: feel free...
09:07	lypanov	freaking bearded idiots.
09:07	G0SUB	lypanov: I just have a moustache.
09:08	G0SUB	when rms wrote about the Java Trap a few years back, people laughed at him. today all Java programmers are crapping their pants.
09:08	carkh	hum no
09:08	G0SUB	AWizzArd: please email licensing@fsf.org with your query. the fsf will answer.
09:08	lypanov	AWizzArd: i'd limit to apps if you use gpl.
09:08	fhd	lypanov: Beards are pretty essential actually http://bit.ly/3NwOp
09:09	G0SUB	fhd: in that case, rhickey needs to grow one (granted that he has some nice hairstyle)
09:09	lypanov	fhd: love this one.
09:09	AWizzArd	G0SUB: okay
09:09	lypanov	fhd: especially matz who grew a beard at one point :D
09:10	AWizzArd	lypanov: what do you mean by that?
09:11	lypanov	AWizzArd: unless there is a good reason i'd go with something more bsd like for libraries in general
09:11	fhd	G0SUB: The beard of the inventor of Lisp was so vast that Clojure probably inherited lots of positive energy http://bit.ly/9tL2B6
09:11	G0SUB	fhd: +1
09:11	lypanov	plenty of companies obviously can't touch gpl'ed code
09:11	AWizzArd	lypanov: I will EPL my Clojure libs. But I would like to know if it was possible in principle.
09:11	G0SUB	AWizzArd: see, it all depends on your lib.
09:12	AWizzArd	IF someone asks me about a GPL licence of my lib, I might do this.
09:12	lypanov	nothing wrong with dual licensing epl and gpl afaiu
09:12	G0SUB	AWizzArd: if you want widespread adoption and don't want to benefit directly from the code (but mostly from services, fame, etc.) use a very permissive license.
09:12	lypanov	(i'm very pro that)
09:12	G0SUB	AWizzArd: on the other hand, if you are creating something big and you want outside cooperation, use GPL.
09:13	AWizzArd	Yes.
09:13	carkh	well clojure has plenty cooperation with epl
09:13	carkh	eclipse does too =)
09:13	AWizzArd	Git and Mercurial are GPL. Seems okay. Though it is not clear to me how there can be a java implementation of Git not being gpl.
09:13	G0SUB	carkh: cooperation from companies?
09:13	AWizzArd	But most programming language implementations are not GPL.
09:13	carkh	well eclipse does yes
09:14	G0SUB	carkh: who would otherwise, steal, modify and ship?
09:14	G0SUB	AWizzArd: languages, standards, need not be gpl. simple BSD works too.
09:14	carkh	you can't steal modify ship epl
09:14	AWizzArd	Yeah, though most have something different than bsd.
09:18	raek	AWizzArd: I remember that I have seen rhickey talking about Clojure and GPL in the Clojure logs (http://clojure-log.n01se.net/)
09:18	G0SUB	carkh: does EPL mention anything about derivative works? (I can't remember)
09:18	AWizzArd	derivative works need to be EPLed
09:18	AWizzArd	The definition of what is “derivative” is different though.
09:18	AWizzArd	Linking/Using EPLed libs is not derivative.
09:19	G0SUB	AWizzArd: that's a form of ``weak copyleft''.
09:19	AWizzArd	Yes.
09:19	G0SUB	AWizzArd: which is OK for Clojure.
09:19	raek	G0SUB: the EPL does. it excplicitly says that it doesn't consider mere linking with code as derivative work
09:19	raek	looks for link
09:20	AWizzArd	Btw, does "linking" also include: creating an Überjar?
09:20	raek	http://www.eclipse.org/legal/eplfaq.php#DERIV
09:20	raek	"Some open source software communities specify what they mean by a "derivative work". Does the Eclipse Foundation have a position on this?"
09:20	AWizzArd	For example, may I include clojure.jar in my commercialXYZ.jar?
09:20	AWizzArd	Or is that not linking and thus forces me to EPL my code?
09:20	G0SUB	AWizzArd: as long as you tell people how to get the source of clojure.jar
09:21	carkh	AWizzArd: well that's the kind of linking that doesn't infect your code
09:21	raek	from the EPL itself: "Contributions do not include additions to the Program which: (i) are separate modules of software distributed in conjunction with the Program under their own license agreement, and (ii) are not derivative works of the Program."
09:21	AWizzArd	One other option would be to not include clojure.jar in my source code and have it in the CP at my customer’s site.
09:21	carkh	AWizzArd: you don't need to do that
09:21	AWizzArd	ok
09:23	G0SUB	bottom-line, EPL for Clojure the language is OK. If you are building FOSS apps using Clojure, choose the license that suites you. EPL doesn't restrict you as long as you are not modifying clojure itself.
09:23	AWizzArd	Right.
09:23	AWizzArd	Even if I would modify clojure itself, I would only have to EPL those concrete changes.
09:24	G0SUB	AWizzArd: yes.
09:24	AWizzArd	The rest of my code can still be under licence XYZ.
09:24	raek	enough about licenses for me. time to write some code! :-)
09:24	fhd	So a Clojure lib under LGPL is fine?
09:24	fhd	raek: Sorry :P
09:24	G0SUB	fhd: I guess so.
09:25	fhd	k. It's pretty permissive, but IANAL
09:25	G0SUB	fhd: to be 100% sure, email licensing@fsf.org
09:25	jaley	fhd: dude i work for an open source foundation - we're told including LGPL code with our otherwise EPL codebase is fine by our legal team. maybe that helps you? :p
09:25	G0SUB	jaley: +1
09:25	fhd	jaley: Does :)
09:26	fhd	I just don't want people having to consult a lawyer if they want to use my code
09:26	G0SUB	fhd: don't worry too much. most of it is FUD anyway.
09:27	jaley	fhd: people with enough money to do that will do so anyway for fear of losing it :)
09:52	jaley	when i run a java process from clojure.java.shell/sh there's a huuuuge delay in waiting for the process to terminate for some reason
10:01	carkh	jaley: maybe you have soem agetn still running ?
10:01	carkh	or a daemon thread ?
10:10	fhd	Do you guys know Polyglot Maven btw? I can't wait for it :) http://polyglot.sonatype.org/clojure.html
10:11	jaley	carkh: well, i'm just calling the function, but maybe there is somewhere
10:22	Bahman	Hi all!
10:51	lypanov	fhd: ah, neat.
10:51	lypanov	fhd: (polyglot maven)
10:54	cemerick	fhd: yup, it's been percolating for a year or so.
11:14	KLKLL	I have a question
11:15	KLKLL	if I do something like
11:15	KLKLL	(defn somefn [xlist] (fn [t] (nth xlist t)))
11:16	KLKLL	does the list I supply as a parameter get inserted into the returned function as an actual data structure?
11:16	cemerick	yup
11:16	KLKLL	so if I have a list 1 million elements long
11:16	KLKLL	I get a really longass fn
11:17	cemerick	a reference to the list is retained...it's not literally inserted
11:17	cemerick	might as well just do (partial nth xlist) though
11:17	KLKLL	,(doc partial)
11:17	clojurebot	"([f arg1] [f arg1 arg2] [f arg1 arg2 arg3] [f arg1 arg2 arg3 & more]); Takes a function f and fewer than the normal arguments to f, and returns a fn that takes a variable number of additional args. When called, the returned function calls f with args + additional args."
11:17	KLKLL	is partial any different to what I am doing
11:17	Raynes	-> ((partial + 3) 4)
11:17	sexpbot	⟹ 7
11:18	cemerick	no, but it's more general and simpler than having your dedicated somefn function
11:18	KLKLL	right...ok so a reference is passed in?
11:18	Raynes	Unless you're using somefn in several places, anyway.
11:19	cemerick	KLKLL: Yes.
11:19	KLKLL	I'm asking like if I am using partial with a really long list to create new fns am I burning memory like nuts with it?
11:19	cemerick	if the list is already allocated, no
11:20	KLKLL	cool
11:20	cemerick	,((partial nth (range Integer/MAX_VALUE)) 5000)
11:20	clojurebot	5000
11:20	KLKLL	I thought clojure actually copied the list into the returned fn as a data structure so I was worried :)
11:21	cemerick	That would require a macro
11:24	KLKLL	I'm trying to make a repeat function but one that takes multiple arguments :)
11:25	tomoj	what does it do, cycle through infinitely?
11:25	KLKLL	yep
11:25	tomoj	don't want to spoil your fun
11:26	tomoj	,(take 10 (cycle [1 2 3]))
11:26	clojurebot	(1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1)
11:26	KLKLL	ok :)
11:26	KLKLL	well I'm learning clojure :)
11:26	tomoj	even if that does what you want, still probably good to try to rewrite it yourself
11:26	KLKLL	so I have to do these little things
11:27	KLKLL	so basically I have to use a vector to prevent having terrible performance on nth
11:27	cemerick	lists are very rarely used
11:27	cemerick	and nth is unnecessary with vectors
11:27	KLKLL	really?
11:28	KLKLL	what do you use with vectors
11:28	cemerick	,([1 2 3] 1)
11:28	clojurebot	2
11:28	KLKLL	ok
11:28	KLKLL	thx
11:28	cemerick	Vectors are fns of their indexes.
11:28	KLKLL	forgot about that
11:28	cemerick	Just like maps are fns of their keys
11:28	KLKLL	but what do I do if I have this param list
11:28	KLKLL	[x & others]
11:29	KLKLL	others is a sequence I think
11:29	cemerick	`others` is a seq, yes
11:29	KLKLL	which probably have terrible performance on nth
11:29	KLKLL	so I have to convert it to vector I guess
11:29	cemerick	if what you want from it is in a fixed position, just destructure it
11:29	cemerick	[x & [a b c & rest]]
11:30	KLKLL	isn't descturcturing slow too?
11:30	cemerick	nah
11:30	KLKLL	btw it's funny how java varargs are packed into a fast structure like an array
11:30	lpetit	did the policy of the n01se.net clojure logs change recently ?
11:30	lpetit	I cannot get access to past days logs anymore ...
11:30	cemerick	There are very limited circumstances where destructuring is the bottleneck. It's not worth worrying about.
11:31	cemerick	lpetit: ping chouser, I'm sure it's a bug
11:32	lpetit	cemerick: ok. Is yesterday's chat concerning defdynamic summarizable in one or two sentences ?
11:35	KLKLL	,(vec (seq '(1 2 3)))
11:35	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
11:35	KLKLL	ok that works
11:35	cemerick	lpetit: def becomes static by default, dynamic rebinding only provided by defdynamic vars, scoped var root substitution available and complete redefinition still available.
11:35	cemerick	,(vec '(1 2 3))
11:35	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
11:35	KLKLL	I was trying to see if it works with sequences
11:35	cemerick	ah
11:35	KLKLL	not just lists
11:36	KLKLL	this clojure cheat sheet has it wrong then
11:36	G0SUB	is there any decent explanation of Pods somewhere in the tubes?
11:36	cemerick	link?
11:36	clojurebot	your link is dead
11:36	KLKLL	vec [coll] Creates new vector from another collection.
11:36	lpetit	"scoped var root substitution available" : this part I missed. Don't totally understand what it is.
11:36	KLKLL	clrearly it works with seq too
11:36	lpetit	is it for defdynamic only ?
11:37	KLKLL	http://faustus.webatu.com/clj-quick-ref.html#vector
11:37	cemerick	KLKLL: "collection" and "seq" are often interchangeable terms.
11:37	cemerick	At least in common parlance.
11:38	Raynes	And a list actually is a sequence.
11:38	lpetit	Does this change mean that trying to do "AOP-like" stuff (e.g. dynamically enhancing some vars for timing stats & al will become harder ?)
11:38	KLKLL	I know list is a sequence
11:38	cemerick	lpetit: AFAICT, think of it as alter-var-root that is reverted outside of a delimited scope. with-open-esque
11:38	KLKLL	but sequence does not implement all functionality of a collection
11:39	KLKLL	hence my assumption that is function works with collections that it doesn't work with sequences
11:39	cemerick	KLKLL: seqs are collections
11:39	KLKLL	really?
11:39	lpetit	cemerick: hmm, okay ... will need to read that confluence page again ... thanks!
11:40	cemerick	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection (seq [1 2 3]))
11:40	clojurebot	true
11:40	KLKLL	ok got that wrong then
11:40	KLKLL	thanks for clearing that up for me
11:41	cemerick	lpetit: timing stats and such should be done with the JVM profiler, not through providing advice.
11:41	lpetit	cemerick: heh, was just a quick example out of my head
11:41	cemerick	I know :-)
11:42	cemerick	I actually don't think dynamically-bound vars have very many good use cases.
11:42	technomancy	seems like with-var-root covers most of the extensibility jobs that binding has handled so far.
11:42	lpetit	but I can see plenty of reasons why doing AOP-like stuff by rebinding vars can lead to problems in big projects, though
11:42	aav	lpetit
11:43	lpetit	aav: aav
11:43	lpetit	:)
11:43	cemerick	I suspect the first utility to come around will be a fn that will redef all static vars as dynamic ones.
11:43	technomancy	for the record, everyone going to conj should install http://github.com/toolmantim/bananajour in case the network gets choppy.
11:43	lpetit	bananajour ?
11:43	technomancy	cemerick: heh; well if it's anything like static fns that will also necessitate a recompile of all code that uses the var, so I don't think it'd be that simple. =\
11:44	technomancy	lpetit: for publishing and broadcasting your local git repos over bonjour/zeroconf
11:44	technomancy	so you don't have to rely on an external network
11:44	cemerick	technomancy: source metadata! :-P
11:44	KLKLL	what's the difference between dynamic and static bound vars?
11:44	KLKLL	btw finished my function :P
11:44	technomancy	cemerick: you mean like serializable-fn?
11:45	cemerick	KLKLL: that's crazy bleeding-edge dev -- don't worry about it yet :-)
11:45	technomancy	I would love to see that in Clojure itself as an optional feature
11:46	technomancy	http://github.com/Seajure/serializable-fn
11:46	lpetit	cemerick, technomancy: maybe not source metadata on fns, but at least on vars (at least)
11:46	cemerick	technomancy: nah, just reloading defs as necessary from source as necessary via :file and :line metadata.
11:46	cemerick	way too much work, and it probably wouldn't pan out anyway
11:46	lpetit	:)
11:46	technomancy	slime already has a "who-calls" function, but it's naieve
11:47	technomancy	*swank
11:47	dentrado	Hello. If I have multiple threads that should write messages to the same output streams (that are values in a map), what's the best way to make shure that their output won't be mixed. Could I commute the writes if the map is in a ref? or can I do something equivalent to javas synchronized block?
11:47	technomancy	dentrado: you can serialize writes through an agent
11:48	cemerick	dentrado: `locking` will do you nicely
11:48	technomancy	(let [a (agent (writer "/tmp/foo"))] (future (send a #(do (.write % "blah blah blah") %))))
11:48	cemerick	I dislike lifting IO into agents. The error handling isn't fun.
11:49	technomancy	true
11:49	KLKLL	,(defn repeat2 [& coll] ((fn rep2 [n vect] (lazy-seq (cons (vect n) (if (= (inc n) (count vect)) (rep2 0 vect) (rep2 (inc n) vect))))) 0 (vec coll)))
11:49	clojurebot	DENIED
11:49	KLKLL	oh lol can't do that :P
11:49	technomancy	I haven't looked into the improved error queues in 1.2 though
11:49	lpetit	technomancy: noob question ('cause I'm not so much used to attend confs) = where/when would the feature of sharing a local git repo be interesting ? I need to understand the "use cases" (sorry ;) )
11:49	cemerick	hrm, same here
11:49	cemerick	Regardless, if you want to serialize access to something like a stream, locking is hard to beat.
11:49	technomancy	lpetit: at bigger confs the wifi is often pretty unusable due to saturation
11:50	technomancy	so if you want to share without being able to push/pull from github for conference hackfests this is quite handy.
11:50	KLKLL	doesn't let me showcase my beautiful new repeat function :( :D
11:50	technomancy	maybe it won't be an issue at the conj; it's pretty small.
11:50	cemerick	If we can get people to shut off their phone wifi, I think we'll be OK.
11:50	lpetit	technomancy: ok, but I don't see why I would miss wifi, or how a github repo in an adhoc wifi of one of my mate will make me suffer less to not have wifi :)
11:50	dentrado	Ok so locking is like synchronized?
11:51	cemerick	dentrado: exactly the same thing
11:51	technomancy	lpetit: err--I should say it's not the wifi that's saturated but rather the upstream Internet connection.
11:51	lpetit	mm, it's probably the notion of "hackfest" that I don't get yet :)
11:51	KLKLL	synchronized ties a lock to an object
11:51	KLKLL	a monitor basically
11:52	cemerick	dentrado: to be used with judicious caution. Serializing access to streams is the only reliable use case I have for it.
11:52	technomancy	lpetit: I'm going to have a bonjour git URL in my slides so people can try the stuff I'm demoing on their own machine and see how it's implemented.
11:52	KLKLL	I did a paper on STM for my bachelor's degree
11:52	technomancy	lpetit: but yeah, half the fun of a conference like this is getting together and banging out some code.
11:52	KLKLL	also covered problems with locks :P
11:52	cemerick	KLKLL: you're in the right place, then :-)
11:53	KLKLL	:D
11:53	KLKLL	there's a bunch of otehr STMs too :D
11:53	technomancy	cemerick: are there any tools to serve maven repos over bonjour?
11:53	cemerick	Man, I've never once written a single line of code at a conf.
11:53	lpetit	technomancy: interesting. So if my english is too slooow, people can always play with my repo while I'm searching the words for my next sentence :-D
11:53	cemerick	technomancy: I have no idea.
11:53	KLKLL	every major player's research team has one
11:53	lpetit	technomancy: half the fun of this conference (for me) will be to survive to it :)
11:53	KLKLL	intel, microsoft, sun have their own STms
11:54	technomancy	actually... I looked into it, and there's not really a good zeroconf implementation on the JVM =\
11:54	cemerick	KLKLL: sure, but I don't care about other impls that much ;-)
11:54	KLKLL	:D
11:54	technomancy	last I checked anyway. shame since it'd be very useful on dalvik.
11:54	lpetit	and try not to sleep during my own talk, since my body will tell me "hey, it's past midnight, you should be sleeping" :)
11:55	technomancy	though activeMQ claims to be able to use it.
11:55	cemerick	"dalvik is not Java" :-P
11:55	dentrado	Ok, thanks alot for the quick help, I will try with locking then.
11:56	KLKLL	(main problem with locking is that it doesn't compose
11:56	_ulises	afternoon all
11:56	KLKLL	so you can't build a nice airtight system from bottom up
11:57	technomancy	hm; this looks new: http://jmdns.sourceforge.net/
11:58	technomancy	weeee; SVN!
11:58	Raynes	Could be worse. Could be CVS.
11:59	technomancy	Raynes: actually... it's the best of both worlds!
11:59	technomancy	SVN with a CVSROOT directory checked in
11:59	jaley	my axis plugin for lein totally works! i've stuck it on github, so if anyone needs soap in a clojure project soon, it might save a bit of time :p
11:59	Raynes	Oh boy.
11:59	Raynes	jaley: Awesome! Now port it to cake. :>
12:00	jaley	Raynes: meh. later :p
12:02	KLKLL	strings behave like which coll?
12:03	Raynes	Strings are Java strings.
12:03	Raynes	-> (class "")
12:03	sexpbot	⟹ java.lang.String
12:03	Kruppe	Can anyone help me understand why this doesn't work: http://paste.lisp.org/+2H77
12:03	KLKLL	,(count "fafaf")
12:03	clojurebot	5
12:03	technomancy	KLKLL: seq on a string is just a bunch of characters
12:05	KLKLL	somehow I think that functions like count use a lot of reflection
12:06	KLKLL	(.length() "ff")
12:06	KLKLL	,(.length() "ff")
12:06	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No matching method found: length for class clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
12:06	Raynes	,(.length "ff")
12:06	clojurebot	2
12:06	KLKLL	yeah
12:06	KLKLL	fricking typo
12:07	KLKLL	I work with java :(
12:07	KLKLL	mind-numbing let me tell you
12:10	KLKLL	well I have to go... kids, don't get a job programming java, if you have any sort of talent it will drive you insane
12:11	jaley	is ["clojars" "http://clojars.org/repo"] one of the default repos in leiningen? no need to add it?
12:13	technomancy	jaley: no need
12:14	jaley	technomancy: ok thanks. seems version 0.6 of lein-clojars is not where the documentation claims, in that case
12:15	technomancy	jaley: that plugin is deprecated since there's no comprehensive SCP support for the JVM
12:15	technomancy	in particular it doesn't work with DSA keys; IME it's less failure-prone just to perform the scp manually.
12:15	jaley	technomancy: oh. what's the alternative? the "long way"?
12:15	technomancy	lein pom && lein jar && scp pom.xml *jar clojars@clojars.org: # still a one-liner, kinda
12:16	cemerick	rhickey: am I right in thinking that Util.ret1 exist to allow one to release references to heads of lazy seqs?
12:16	technomancy	I haven't tried it in nearly a year, maybe it's better now.
12:16	Raynes	technomancy: Cake has a release task built in. Not sure how it's accomplished though.
12:16	technomancy	Raynes: it probably doesn't work with DSA keys
12:16	Raynes	technomancy: ninjudd uses a DSA key.
12:17	jaley	technomancy: it's a 1 liner in a 3 lined kind of sense :) thanks for the help, i'll do that instead
12:17	technomancy	I guess it just shells out then
12:17	cemerick	technomancy: jsch is very comprehensive
12:17	cemerick	The API is horrible, but it gets the job done.
12:17	Raynes	technomancy: I don't think it does.
12:18	technomancy	cemerick: this is just heresay, but that's what the author of the plugin told me when I reported it to him.
12:18	ninjudd	yeah, i use JSch. there is no documentation so it was a pain to figure it out
12:18	ninjudd	but it works with DSA keys
12:18	technomancy	ok, I've been misinformed
12:19	cemerick	technomancy: hugod wrote clj-ssh, which wraps it
12:19	technomancy	and is probably better-documented; nice.
12:19	ninjudd	technomancy: i wouldn't be opposed to factoring the ssh code out into a clj-ssh library if you want to use it
12:19	ninjudd	oh
12:19	ninjudd	hehe
12:20	technomancy	ninjudd: appreciate the thought. =)
12:20	ninjudd	using that would have saved me some time ;)
12:21	shanmu	Hi, is there a library/contrib to generate xml in clojure
12:21	shanmu	somewhat like prxml but generating into a string instead
12:21	cemerick	All the code you've ever needed has already been written; it's just a matter of finding it. :-)
12:21	shanmu	or into the xml/parse tree structure
12:21	Raynes	-> (doc with-out-str)
12:21	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([& body]); Evaluates exprs in a context in which out is bound to a fresh StringWriter. Returns the string created by any nested printing calls."
12:22	shanmu	Raynes: thanks!
12:22	Raynes	-> (with-out-str (println "blah"))
12:22	sexpbot	⟹ "blah\n"
12:23	shanmu	cemerick: I was considering using a version of prxml in which print is redfined to put into a global string
12:23	shanmu	but it seemed a bad idea
12:23	ninjudd	cemerick: i thought i had found it by using JSch!
12:23	cemerick	shanmu: yeah, raynes is spot on with with-out-str
12:25	shanmu	cemerick: yes, thats the beauty of the community - I still a clojure n00b that I have not yet dipped into macros at all and not yet learned to navigate the clojuredocs completely
12:27	ninjudd	looks like clj-ssh doesn't have scp1 support, which is necessary for clojars. maybe i'll talk to hugod about grabbing that code from cake and i'll switch to clj-ssh
12:28	technomancy	jaley: looks like a typo in the lein-clojars plugin readme; the version is actually 0.6.0 instead of 0.6
12:28	cemerick	ninjudd: scp1? Is that scp over ssh v1?
12:29	ninjudd	no, it is scp by running the scp command over the ssh tunnel
12:29	jaley	technomancy: ah right, thanks.
12:30	ninjudd	as opposed to using sftp
12:30	ninjudd	i believe it can happen over ssh v1 or v2
12:31	ninjudd	clojars doesn't support sftp. i think because that would give you access to other people's files
12:31	ninjudd	cemerick: http://blogs.sun.com/janp/entry/how_the_scp_protocol_works
12:32	ninjudd	Compared to the earlier http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_copy protocol, which allows only file transfers, the SFTP protocol allows for a range of operations on remote files – it is more like a remote http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_system protocol. An SFTP http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_(computing)'s extra capabilities compared to an SCP client include resuming interrupted transfers, directory listings, and remote fil
12:32	ninjudd	removal.
12:32	cemerick	I'm blissfully ignorant.
12:43	hugod	ninjudd: I can trivially add an scp command to clj-ssh, in fact it is already written
12:43	ninjudd	hugod: you mean without using sftp?
12:43	hugod	I always thought scp was implemented on top of sftp though
12:43	ninjudd	there are two different protocols
12:44	hugod	I'll have to check if jsch supports it then
12:44	ninjudd	hugod: it doesn't
12:44	ninjudd	hugod: see the upload function here http://github.com/ninjudd/cake/blob/master/src/cake/tasks/release.clj
12:45	ninjudd	hugod: unfortunately, i duplicated a lot of your clj-ssh work because i didn't know about it
12:46	hugod	I've been meaning to do a few things with clj-ssh, mainly improving the handling of input and output streams
12:48	ninjudd	hugod: yeah, i also have code in there to print the remote output on getExtInputStream, which is what clojars uses to print status information
12:51	hugod	ninjudd: what is that scp command? I don't see -d -t in the man page
12:52	ninjudd	hugod: -t and -d are hidden options for sink mode and directory respectively
12:52	ninjudd	http://blogs.sun.com/janp/entry/how_the_scp_protocol_works
12:57	hugod	ninjudd: thanks, looks straightforward enough
13:07	ninjudd	hugod: no problem. i'll switch cake to use clj-ssh once i get some extra time
13:08	shanmu	hi, I have a question related to clj-http
13:08	shanmu	how to pass a input=value in the body of a post request?
13:15	tomoj	I just switched from clj-http to clojure-http-client
13:16	tomoj	because, I think, I needed to do x-www-form-urlencoded post bodies
13:16	tomoj	maybe clj-http can do it and my switch to clojure-http-client wasn't necessary...
13:38	chouser_	cascalog!
13:38	chouser_	:-)
13:44	fliebel	,(seq? [1 2 3])
13:44	clojurebot	false
13:44	fliebel	:(
13:52	fliebel	What is the correct way to determine if something can be treated as a list in a multimethod?
13:53	mrBliss	,(every? sequential? [[] '() {} #{}])
13:53	clojurebot	false
13:53	mrBliss	,(map sequential? [[] '() {} #{}])
13:53	clojurebot	(true true false false)
13:54	fliebel	mrBliss: Sets have no order
13:54	mrBliss	(include maps and sets for demonstration purposes)
13:54	mrBliss	s/include/included
13:55	fliebel	right, but… I'll think about it. I have a couple of more things to choose from. I'm currently just using class.
13:56	fliebel	I tried clojure.lang.ISeq for class, but I'll have to come up with something else.
14:02	TakeV	If I'm using Lein's REPL to test out my project, is there a way to reload the REPL when I change a file, instead of just restarting it?
14:03	nlogax	TakeV: there is.. but i forgot :s. something like (use foo :reload)
14:04	TakeV	Foo being the namespace I'm in?
14:07	Kruppe	Is there any reason why the last two versions in http://paste.lisp.org/+2H77 would hang? I have to be missing something. Im using clojure version 1.2.0
14:12	tomoj	can we combine async io for lots of parallel connections to many different clients with hadoop/cascalog?
14:15	mattmitchell	could someone recommend a mongo library? i'm trying to use congomongo but no luck, i just get a not found exception, even though "lein deps" pulls it in
14:19	tomoj	mattmitchell: maybe better to just solve that?
14:19	tomoj	what does the not found exception complain about
14:19	mattmitchell	tomoj: yeah you're probably right!
14:19	tomoj	I don't know anything about the mongo libraries, but I've heard about congomongo a lot
14:19	mattmitchell	tomoj: well this is the error I get: clojure.lang.Compiler$CompilerException: java.io.FileNotFoundException: Could not locate somnium/congomongo__init.class or somnium/congomongo.clj on classpath: (indexer.clj:1)
14:20	tomoj	`jar tf` the congo jar in deps/
14:20	mattmitchell	tomoj: i'm using cake, and want to integrate congo mongo into a task
14:20	tomoj	oh, cake, hrmm
14:20	mattmitchell	tomoj: ok i'll try that
14:20	tomoj	why'd you run `lein deps`?
14:21	mattmitchell	tomoj: should i have done something else?
14:21	tomoj	I don't know cake, so I'm not sure
14:21	tomoj	but I thought cake was a replacement for lein?
14:21	MayDaniel_	`cake deps`
14:21	_ulises	I am very confused about what symbols really are. Is it fair to say that the act as "labels" to vars? AFAIK the name of the symbol is used to look up a var of the same name and then the var is resolved
14:21	_ulises	but that suggests that if a different look up mechanism was involved, one could have symbol foo which would eval to var bar
14:21	_ulises	no?
14:22	mattmitchell	tomoj: when i run "jar tf" on the congomongo jar file, i get http://gist.github.com/630116
14:22	mattmitchell	MayDaniel: so i should use cake deps instead of lein when using cake?
14:22	tomoj	mattmitchell: so that jar is not on your classpath
14:22	MayDaniel_	Yes.
14:22	tomoj	cake or lein, pick one
14:23	tomoj	does cake put deps in a different place?
14:23	mattmitchell	tomoj: oh i thought cake worked with lein, making it easier to create tasks etc..
14:23	mattmitchell	my deps with lein go into lib
14:23	tomoj	cake is pseudo-compatible with lein's project.clj
14:23	tomoj	ah, right, dunno why I said "deps/"...
14:24	mattmitchell	tomoj: no problem. what does "jar tf" do?
14:24	tomoj	the 't' says "list the contents of the archive"
14:24	tomoj	the 'f' says "I'm about to tell you which archive I mean"
14:24	tomoj	see `man jar`
14:24	mattmitchell	tomoj: cool ok.
14:26	dm3	is there an idiom to turn nil into an empty sequence?
14:27	mattmitchell	ok so i removed my "lib" dir and used cake deps instead of lein. it pull everything in fine, but if i try to "use" congomongo in one of my namespaces i get that error
14:27	mattmitchell	so i thought cake/lein would automatically put things in the class path?
14:28	tomoj	mattmitchell: have you restarted your jvm?
14:28	mattmitchell	tomoj: no
14:28	tomoj	with lein, you need to
14:28	tomoj	since it's not working, apparently so with cake
14:28	tomoj	you shouldn't have to restart the persistent cake jvm
14:28	tomoj	but just the project jvm
14:29	mattmitchell	tomoj: interesting ok, let me try that.
14:29	tomoj	java doesn't like the classpath changing
14:30	mattmitchell	tomoj: i ran "cake restart" and still getting that error, hmm.
14:31	tomoj	check (System/getProperty "java.class.path") for the congo jar
14:31	mattmitchell	tomoj: ugh, sorry. how do i do that?
14:31	mattmitchell	oh duh, repl :)
14:31	MayDaniel_	mattmitchell: How are you running your code?
14:32	mattmitchell	MayDaniel_: well i've been firing up "cake repl" and playing with it like that
14:33	mattmitchell	tomoj: ok i do see congo mongo in the class path
14:33	tomoj	then you should be good
14:33	tomoj	hmm
14:34	tomoj	check that the path in the notfoundexception matches the file in `jar tf` for the congo jar you see on the classpath
14:34	tomoj	if so, something is crazy
14:35	mattmitchell	tomoj: ok will try that...
14:37	mattmitchell	tomoj: yeah the same path is in listed in "jar tf"
14:38	tomoj	what is this "indexer.clj"?
14:38	Derander	do I need to restart my swank server after I load in some new deps with lein?
14:38	tomoj	Derander: yeah
14:38	Derander	that is sad :-(
14:38	tomoj	if you're working on two projects back and forth you can use checkout deps
14:39	tomoj	but for adding new deps, no help
14:40	Derander	thanks for the info
14:41	mattmitchell	tomoj: oh this is a file that has a namespace of "apij.indexer" it's my own file for creating tasks
14:43	tomoj	how are you loading the file?
14:44	mattmitchell	tomoj: I have this in my indexer.clj file: (ns apij.indexer
14:44	mattmitchell	(:use somnium.congomongo))
14:44	mattmitchell	tomoj: and right when i run "cake help" i get the error
14:44	mattmitchell	tomoj: indexer.clj is in src/apij/indexer.clj
14:44	tomoj	that's odd
14:45	mattmitchell	tomoj: yeah i thought this would just work. but i'm new to clojure so i wasn't sure
14:46	tomoj	ninjudd: ^
14:48	AWizzArd	rhickey: I wanted to ask you about gvec.clj. Why are IVecImpl and the ArrayManager definterfaces and not defprotocols?
14:49	ninjudd	mattmitchell: did you gist the error?
14:50	ninjudd	mattmitchell: oh, i found it
14:50	ninjudd	mattmitchell: if you want to access your project classpath in a task, you have to wrap it in the bake macro
14:51	mattmitchell	ninjudd: oh ok here is the whole error: http://gist.github.com/630151
14:51	mattmitchell	ninjudd: oh really!?
14:51	tomoj	oh, I see, it was a task
14:51	ninjudd	mattmitchell: here's an example: http://github.com/ninjudd/cake/blob/master/src/cake/tasks/test.clj
14:52	mattmitchell	ninjudd: awesome i'll have a look
14:52	mattmitchell	tomoj: sorry for not mentioning that
14:52	ninjudd	btw, i'm seriously considering getting rid of the separate cake and project jvm. but i want to get more input on the possible ramifications before i do
14:53	tomoj	mattmitchell: I wouldn't have understood the implications anyway, that's why I pinged ninjudd :)
14:53	mattmitchell	tomoj: cool ok :)
14:53	tomoj	ninjudd: I was wondering whether the separate classloader idea could cause weird behavior
14:54	ninjudd	a separate classloader is the other option. two JVMs is not the long term plan
14:54	tomoj	oh, and another option is to just put cake stuff right in the project jvm?
14:54	ninjudd	but i'm considering just sharing a classloader and making cake itself be self-contained within the cake.* ns
14:55	tomoj	I see
14:55	ninjudd	it would mean cake has to run on all versions of clojure it supports
14:55	tomoj	ah
14:55	ninjudd	if we switch from maven to ivy, the number of jar deps for cake itself drops from 27 to 7
14:55	tomoj	so if you start playing with edge clojure, and edge clojure breaks cake, you're hosed
14:56	ninjudd	though there could still be version conflicts with those 7
14:56	mattmitchell	ok here is my indexer.clj file, still getting that error though: http://gist.github.com/630154
14:56	mattmitchell	i also listed apij.indexer in my project's "tasks" setting
14:56	ninjudd	tomoj: that is the downside. if edge clojure introduces breaking changes, i will have to write compatibility code in cake
14:56	tomoj	you need to bake congo in, not just use it like normal
14:57	fhd	Is there a way to test private methods with clojure.test?
14:57	fhd	(Although I'm still not sure if that'd be a good idea, it would make stuff simpler)
14:57	mattmitchell	tomoj: omg, i didn't get an error when running "cake help" :)
14:58	ninjudd	mattmitchell: http://gist.github.com/630157
14:58	ninjudd	tomoj: i do like the "bake in" lingo. that's a reason to keep them separate ;)
14:59	mattmitchell	ninjudd: awesome! it worked!
14:59	ninjudd	but the number of people who get hung up on this when writing tasks is considerable. for lein too with eval-in-project, i'm sure
14:59	mattmitchell	thanks to both of you for taking the time to help me, much appreciated.
14:59	ninjudd	mattmitchell: great!
15:00	mattmitchell	ninjudd: so why does that work and the way i had it before doesn't?
15:00	ninjudd	mattmitchell: if you have more questions and i'm not around, you can try asking in #cake.clj
15:01	mattmitchell	ninjudd: excellent, i'll go there next time
15:01	ninjudd	mattmitchell: bake takes ns forms to load in your project, then a set of bindings to pass over the socket to the project jvm
15:04	tomoj	ninjudd: :)
15:05	mattmitchell	ninjudd: i'll have to think on that one :)
15:14	@rhickey	so, locally I have a working version of Clojure that requires explicit (def ^:dynamic x) metadata in order to support rebinding, and denies it otherwise
15:14	@rhickey	this on the path to some perf enhancements, but also opens the door to another enhancement - transactional loading of code
15:14	@rhickey	any interest in that?
15:14	AWizzArd	totally
15:15	AWizzArd	This is important for hot updates of course.
15:15	AWizzArd	I am very interested in this.
15:15	AWizzArd	In fact, I am working on something similar, and this sounds really good.
15:15	AWizzArd	about the perf enhancements: would they target non-dynamic vars or the dynamic ones?
15:16	@rhickey	non dynamic
15:16	AWizzArd	good
15:16	@rhickey	the whole point is that dynamic entails cost
15:16	AWizzArd	So, in principle this means: I will compile my code and get errors for each binding. To fix those I tag the concrete vars with ^:dynamic. Is that correct?
15:16	@rhickey	the transactional loading can't be made perfect, ad that would require code run in transactions
15:17	AWizzArd	sure, but this can come in very handy anyway
15:17	AWizzArd	even small improvements help to get correct programs
15:17	@rhickey	AWizzArd: currently it will automatically make dynamic any earmuff-var, with a warning, just as a bridge
15:17	@rhickey	all rebinding attempts to non-dynamics will throw
15:18	AWizzArd	sounds fair
15:18	AWizzArd	Easy patching.
15:19	AWizzArd	Nice to see that you constantly come up with more and more catchy ideas
15:19	@rhickey	the semantics would be - a fn sees a fixed consistent set of fn vars throughout its duration. A subsequent call will get fresh values if available. The perf tradeoff is that a nested call might see newr values than the call that contains it (if they were updated during the call)
15:20	cemerick	rhickey: I've been hoping for transactional loading of namespaces for some time now; all namespaces going into a ref or something?
15:21	tomoj	so as long as updated functions have the same semantics, there will be no problem, right?
15:21	cemerick	or, I should say, each ns going into a ref
15:21	@rhickey	cemerick: no, vars having refs inside. Makingthe load transactional a matter of putting it (or a set of loads) in a transaction, if not, the granularity is per def
15:23	cemerick	rhickey: I guess that falls just shy of making use transactional?
15:23	tomoj	hmm, maybe "semantics" isn't the right word.. if they had the exact same semantics, would they really have been updated?
15:24	@rhickey	cemerick: you can't do that generally, as files can have side effects. I think this will be a consumer-selected thing
15:24	cemerick	damn top-levels
15:24	@rhickey	tomoj: same semantics and return types should always be fine, yes
15:25	@rhickey	cemerick: also, you want ad hoc footprint, especially for hot patches - 2 fns from this ns and 3 from that
15:25	AWizzArd	cemerick: this will be possible with my DB. Soon.
15:26	cemerick	rhickey: does anyone track patches to that level of granularity?
15:26	@rhickey	cemerick: most people don't have this kind of ability
15:27	cemerick	That's what I figured.
15:27	@rhickey	there are many other reasons not to turn a ns into a monolith
15:28	AWizzArd	rhickey: will you upload your code soon (including ^:dynamic)?
15:28	@rhickey	AWizzArd: I could, right now it only provides pain and no benefits, other than clearer intent IMO
15:29	@rhickey	but maybe people should get started on being explicit
15:29	@rhickey	I haven't had enough feedback on the other pain points for people, e.g. mockers
15:30	cemerick	rhickey: I guess I'm not clear about why putting the refs at the ns level restricts one's level of load granularity (preventing "ad hoc footprint", as you put it). If you only load a single def within a transaction, you've just defined your footprint, no?
15:30	cemerick	lol @ "mockers"
15:31	@rhickey	cemerick: by an effect to the entire ns
15:32	@rhickey	cemerick: the biggest effect of which would be to turn var deref into lookup, something CLojure has avoided thus far
15:33	AWizzArd	If the new version does not offer the perf enhancements but already spits out warnings it is worth it.
15:33	@rhickey	maybe that will matter less with caching, but that is unclear and a big risk
15:34	cemerick	OK; I was thinking that static-by-default would imply that the lookup is at compile time only.
15:34	@rhickey	cemerick: how could it be?
15:35	cemerick	eh, crap, nevermind
15:35	AWizzArd	rhickey: btw, just a fast question about gvec.clj: why are IVecImpl and the ArrayManager definterfaces and not defprotocols?
15:36	@rhickey	it should matter not at all if the vars are individual refs, the semantics of the patch transaction are the same
15:36	@rhickey	AWizzArd: because they are not abstractions, just using interfaces for primitives, since pre-primitive support in fns
15:37	AWizzArd	ok
15:39	amalloy	,(try (vals [1 2]) (catch Exception _ 1))
15:39	clojurebot	amalloy: Huh?
15:40	amalloy	hrm. in my repl, that throws an exception. and in clojurebot it doesn't do anything at all. why is that?
15:40	LauJensen	rhickey: So in your local version, a simple (defn tst [x] x) cannot be rebound dynamically without adding the ^:dynamic meta ?
15:41	@rhickey	LauJensen: right
15:42	LauJensen	rhickey: Im thinking typically during a day of development, I rebind things constantly, but once I go into production, I do so very rarely. Couldn't this be declared in the ns or something similar? (ns testing (:development true))
15:42	@rhickey	LauJensen: really, rebind? not redef?
15:42	LauJensen	oh right, redef
15:42	@rhickey	redef is fine
15:42	LauJensen	ah ok
15:43	@rhickey	this is a new model that allows redef (without recompile of downstream callers, unlike old direct linking and static linking)
15:45	AWizzArd	Has "static linking" anything to do with the ^:static hint?
15:46	mattmitchell	i'm using cake and trying to run my own task. the task runs fine the first time, then i get basically this error: mongo_to_solr already refers to: #'apij.indexer/mongo_to_solr
15:46	LauJensen	AWizzArd: AFAIK its called static because its compiled to a static function
15:47	@rhickey	AWizzArd: same thing
15:47	AWizzArd	good
15:48	ninjudd	mattmitchell: hmm.. sounds like the :use in bake shouldn't complain if the symbol is already bound. you can change it to a require for now to fix it
15:49	mattmitchell	ninjudd: bingo! thanks again.
15:58	amalloy	ninjudd: but with just require, will it work the first time he does it?
16:03	ninjudd	amalloy: yeah http://gist.github.com/630157
16:05	amalloy	ninjudd: sure, he just has to make sure to use congo/mongo! instead of plain mongo. i was pointing out that just changing to :require will work until he restarts his jvm, and then stop working
16:06	amalloy	mattmitchell: ^^
16:06	ninjudd	amalloy: i see. except it should break right away because changing the task should trigger a restart
16:07	amalloy	ah. well, shows what i know about cake
16:07	ninjudd	it's strange though because i use bake with use all the time and haven't seen a problem. could be a reload problem
16:10	amalloy	apologies if this goes against etiquette or something, but i'm gonna repeat my previous question since nobody seems to have noticed it:
16:10	amalloy	,(try (vals [1 2]) (catch Exception _ 1)) ; shouldn't this return 1?
16:10	clojurebot	amalloy: Excuse me?
16:13	LauJensen	amalloy: What a weird example
16:14	amalloy	LauJensen: well, i had an expr that would return either a map (whose keys were uninteresting) or a vector, and i wanted to get either the values or the vector
16:14	amalloy	the right solution (aside from fixing the first expr) was to use map? or similar, but i tried this first and can't see why it doesn't work
16:14	LauJensen	-> (supers java.lang.ClassCastException)
16:14	sexpbot	⟹ #{java.lang.RuntimeException java.lang.Exception java.lang.Throwable java.lang.Object java.io.Serializable}
16:15	LauJensen	amalloy: In either case, you'd be better of doing (if (map? x) (vals x) ..
16:15	amalloy	yeah, as i said above i changed to that
16:16	LauJensen	rhickey: Any idea why the above exception isn't caught ?
16:16	LauJensen	-> (try (vals [1 2]) (catch Exception _ 1))
16:16	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
16:16	amalloy	,(try 1/0 (catch Exception _ 0)) ; breaks in the reader, so i understand why this isn't caught
16:16	clojurebot	amalloy: No entiendo
16:23	dpritchett	does anyone know how i can figure out which elisp function is being invoked when i use a command i.e. C-c M-p? swank-clojure and vimpulse both use it for different things and I need to learn how to rebind one or the other.
16:24	LauJensen	C-h k C-c M-p
16:25	dpritchett	remind me to speak kindly of bestinclass if anyone ever asks :)
16:25	hiredman	M-x describe-key
16:26	dpritchett	excellent
16:27	LauJensen	dpritchett: Sure, I'll remind you once in a while :)
16:37	@rhickey	,(class (vals [1 2]))
16:37	clojurebot	clojure.lang.APersistentMap$ValSeq
16:37	@rhickey	,(first (vals [1 2]))
16:37	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.util.Map$Entry
16:38	@rhickey	amalloy: ^^
16:38	amalloy	i see. the exception isn't thrown when i call vals, it's thrown when the repl tries to display it?
16:39	@rhickey	basically, (vals [1 2]) returns a seq that blows up when used, not when created
16:39	@rhickey	amalloy: right
16:39	amalloy	makes sense
16:39	amalloy	(for a given value of "sense")
16:39	@rhickey	vals could do more checking, ticket and patch welcome
16:39	amalloy	rhickey: one of these days i'll get around to filling out a CA
16:41	@rhickey	amalloy: you can file a report without a CA by using the support tab in Assembla
16:42	technomancy	rhickey: for the record if with-var-roots goes into core that addresses my concerns well.
16:42	AWizzArd	rhickey: is it also possible to be able to write comments? I wanted to comment a ticket, but didn't find a way to post something.
16:42	technomancy	(my concerns I raised earlier about testability)
16:42	technomancy	should know better than to butt into the middle of a conversation like that
16:45	@rhickey	technomancy: well, putting it in core will have to follow some thought about it, but it proves the point, that is preferable to binding for, e.g. mocking and testing
16:46	technomancy	sure; even with binding you still need with-var-roots for integration testing.
17:26	amalloy	is there a convenient function that will add an object to a set, unless the object is nil?
17:56	amalloy	,((juxt filter remove) #{1 3 4} (range 5)) ; how cool is this?
17:56	clojurebot	[(1 3 4) (0 2)]
17:57	raek	juxt should have its own fanclub.
17:58	technomancy	http://p.hagelb.org/juxt.html
17:58	technomancy	(I didn't actually use the juxt version, but I like it for its own reasons)
17:59	amalloy	wow technomancy that saves so much typing and thinking :)
18:00	raek	hagelborg... sounds Swedish :)
18:00	amalloy	anyway i spent like ten minutes trying to find a function like partition but that would split a seq into [matches not-matches], before finally realizing it's just (juxt filter remove)
18:01	technomancy	amalloy: c.c.seq/separate
18:01	technomancy	but juxt is cooler
18:02	technomancy	implemented as: [(filter f s) (filter (complement f) s)]
18:02	technomancy	you should submit a patch replacing the implementation with juxt =)
18:03	amalloy	man, i never remember to look in c.contrib
18:03	technomancy	if you had you may never have developed an appreciation for juxt.
18:05	amalloy	technomancy: fantastically unlikely
18:07	amalloy	incidentally, i found what seems like an oddity in emacs's lisp indentation style:
18:07	amalloy	(filter x <newline> y) ; y lines up with x
18:07	amalloy	((juxt filter remove) x <newline> y) ;y lines up with (
18:08	amalloy	is that because emacs doesn't like lisp-1's?
18:10	technomancy	there are lots of edge-cases that aren't well-handled like that
18:10	technomancy	but if you came up with a list of functions that always return functions I suppose it could be done.
18:10	amalloy	technomancy: why would that matter? if it's surrounded by () and not quoted, it must be a function
18:11	amalloy	that is, if it's the first element of ()
18:11	technomancy	amalloy: oh, duh. yeah.
18:11	technomancy	I dunno. I just inherited this code. =)
18:12	amalloy	technomancy: where's the code i would have to change to make it work?
18:13	technomancy	amalloy: http://github.com/technomancy/clojure-mode/blob/master/clojure-mode.el#L550
18:13	technomancy	would be much obliged to see improvement there
18:13	technomancy	fraid I can't give you much advice about it though
18:14	amalloy	no worries, i'll have a look
18:49	lpetit	Is "motivation" (the word) idiomatic english ?
18:53	mabes	lpetit: it is a commonly used word, yes...
18:53	lpetit	mabes: ok, so it doesn't feel "foreign" if one of my conj slides is called "motivations" ?
18:54	mabes	lpetit: no, not at all
18:54	lpetit	kewl, thx
18:54	mabes	lpetit: Looking forward to it ;)
18:54	lpetit	(gulp)
18:54	mabes	heh, don't sweat it
18:55	lpetit	:)
19:00	lpetit	help: for each "kind of feature" (for example "Editor"), I want to split more detailed features into 3 sets : "usable features" (fully functional, no arguing), "existing features" (they're there, but they really need some more work to pretend being viewed as "usable"), "missing features"
19:01	lpetit	What would better english terms than [ "usable", "existing", "missing" ] ?
19:01	carkh	i'm looking into upgrading a project to 1.2, but i can't find clojure.stacktrace
19:02	carkh	does anybody know where i can find print-stack-trace in 1.2 ?
19:03	amalloy	lpetit: [stable, unstable, unimplemented]?
19:03	raek	ah, the doc page is broken again
19:03	raek	carkh: clojuredocs.org
19:03	amalloy	or incomplete instead of unimplemented maybe; i'm not sure what you mean by missing
19:03	raek	it seems like that the docs on clojure.github.com/clojure keeps getting reverted to 1.1 every now and then the last month
19:04	lpetit	amalloy: mm, you help me think more abotu what I want to convey. e.g. I don't want to list all possible unimplemented features. I want to try an honest attempt at pointing one or two "crying" missing features.
19:04	amalloy	lpetit: future work?
19:05	carkh	raek: ah it needs to be "required" now
19:05	carkh	same place as before =P
19:05	lpetit	amalloy: yes, future work is good at summarizing it
19:05	lpetit	so [stable, incomplete, future work] ?
19:05	amalloy	sounds good to me
19:05	lpetit	thx
19:06	amalloy	hooray! i may not be going to conj, but now i know at least four of the words that will be used :)
19:06	amalloy	technomancy: blech, i give up. CL is hard enough without having to know all the ins and outs of EL
19:06	lpetit	changed my mind: [stable, incomplete, around the corner] :)
19:20	amalloy	technomancy: hm, wait a minute. i found a way to make it indent every function the same wrong way; i can probably invert some logic somewhere to include fewer items instead of more in that case :P
19:24	amalloy	,(apply assoc {} (mapcat (juxt identity inc) (range 3)))
19:24	clojurebot	{2 3, 1 2, 0 1}
19:24	amalloy	,(into {} (mapcat (juxt identity inc) (range 3)))
19:24	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
19:31	amalloy	hiredman: ping?
21:14	wakeupsticky	hi all
21:14	wakeupsticky	i'm on ubuntu. Where can I get an example clojure application with a gui? Ideas?
21:15	dharma	what kind of application are you looking for?
21:18	wakeupsticky	i don't really care. i just want to see something with a decent gui written in clojure that works. preferably open source but it doesn't need to be.
21:18	amalloy	wakeupsticky: http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/ants.clj is a classic example, if by gui you mean "draws stuff in a window". if you want something that gets user input, it's not such a great choice
21:19	wakeupsticky	and how do i go from source code to app with that?
21:19	amalloy	do you have clojure installed/running?
21:20	wakeupsticky	just a sec, i'm getting it :)
21:20	amalloy	you should be able to just copy/paste that into a repl
21:21	dharma	since you said your are in ubuntu, you could sudo apt-get install clojure
21:22	wakeupsticky	part of what i'm looking for is proof that it's fairly straightforward to deliver an application. So while I can copy/paste the source into a repl that's not what i was looking for.
21:22	amalloy	wakeupsticky: http://mikera.net/ironclad/
21:23	amalloy	i've only glanced at it myself, but couple months ago someone posted this (his project) to the google group
21:23	wakeupsticky	amalloy, that's exactly what i was looking for
21:24	amalloy	there you go, then. i don't know how hard it was for him to put together, but it looks like there's a mailing group or something, so you could ask there
21:24	wakeupsticky	just that i'm thinking of switching from haskell to clojure primarily because i suspect deploying a gui-app would be easier in clojure
21:25	amalloy	wakeupsticky: i suspect that's true; do you have java experience?
21:25	wakeupsticky	no :\
21:25	wakeupsticky	supposedly it's not necessary but i don't know about reality :P
21:25	bhenry	wakeupsticky i'm doing webapps with clojure and i never knew java beforehand.
21:26	wakeupsticky	cool, what sort of webapps? linky?
21:26	bhenry	intranet apps sorry.
21:26	amalloy	wakeupsticky: it's not necessary, esp for webapps, but knowing your way around the java gui frameworks is a big help - you have to call out to them eventually, and not everything has a clojure wrapper yet
21:26	wakeupsticky	oh np
21:27	wakeupsticky	hmmm, that app you linked to worked but
21:27	wakeupsticky	on java -jar clojure.jar i get the error
21:28	wakeupsticky	Unable to access jarfile clojure.jar
21:28	amalloy	http://stuartsierra.com/2010/01/02/first-steps-with-clojure-swing is series of articles by a well-known clojurian about getting started with gui in clojure
21:28	amalloy	again, i haven't read them
21:29	amalloy	wakeupsticky: the java stuff underlying clojure honestly makes it a real pain to use "raw" with java-jar. check out leiningen for a tool that will manage all that stuff for you
21:29	amalloy	clojurebot: lein?
21:29	clojurebot	the leiningen screencast is on full disclojure: http://vimeo.com/8934942
21:29	amalloy	grr
21:29	amalloy	clojurebot: lein is http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
21:29	clojurebot	You don't have to tell me twice.
21:33	wakeupsticky	i'm too much of a linux noob to understand the installation instructions for leiningen
21:33	amalloy	heh. you download the lein file, and then run lein self-install
21:33	amalloy	it does the rest
21:34	wakeupsticky	i don't need to add it to my path and make it executable?
21:34	amalloy	oh. well yes, i suppose you do
21:35	amalloy	sheepish
21:35	wakeupsticky	that's what i don't know how to do on linux
22:08	dbleyl	anyone familiar with generating local variable tables in their byte code with :gen-class?
22:09	amalloy	dbleyl: as in debug symbols?
22:09	dbleyl	yeah.
22:15	amalloy	dbleyl: it looks like http://sr3d.github.com/GithubFinder/?utm_source=bml&user_id=ninjudd&repo=cake# contains some logic about whether or not to include debug info
22:15	dbleyl	using a jar that's picky about byte code, using something like asm to instrument the gen'd classes.
22:20	amalloy	dbleyl: actually it looks like the compile-java task in there always passes lines,source
22:21	amalloy	if you modify your local cake installation to pass "source,lines,vars", it should work when you run cake compile
22:24	dbleyl	amalloy: thanks - I'm checking out defn compile-clojure, and it looks like at the end of the day, it calls (compile lib)
22:24	amalloy	yeah, i just noticed that too
22:27	amalloy	dbleyl: try javap -l on the generated .class files
22:27	amalloy	mine have local variables
22:27	amalloy	eg javap -l myproj.core\$myfunc
22:29	amalloy	i generated them with a generic call of (compile 'myproj.core), and my project doesn't even have a gen-class
22:29	dbleyl	I was getting some in an earlier version, but not anymore.
22:30	amalloy	earlier version of what?
22:31	dbleyl	of my class.
22:32	amalloy	curious. have you tried calling (compile) yourself?
22:35	dbleyl	yeah, I call it from my clj file.
22:37	steven_t	hey guys
22:37	amalloy	allo
22:37	steven_t	it seems clojure has the same problem c has in terms of needing to name local vars idx instead of index because the latter is a function
22:37	amalloy	steven_t: not at all. you can shadow functions
22:38	steven_t	chapter 1 of Programming Clojure says its bad practice to shadow though
22:38	steven_t	just like you can in c, but its bad practice to
22:38	amalloy	,(do (print index) (let [index 1] (print index)))
22:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: index in this context
22:39	amalloy	,(do (print cons) (let [cons 1] (print cons)))
22:39	clojurebot	#<core$cons clojure.core$cons@4eb98c>1
22:39	amalloy	anyway, yes, you should avoid it for functions you might plan to use in the forseeable future
22:40	steven_t	grr
22:40	steven_t	ruby doesnt have that problem :/
22:40	amalloy	that said, it's pretty rare to have a problem. and in a functional language you rarely want index
22:40	amalloy	steven_t: how does ruby solve it?
22:43	amalloy	(what i mean by the latter is, if you're looping over something using an index, you're usually writing java/ruby in clojure, instead of writing clojure)
22:43	dbleyl	amalloy thanks for your help.
22:43	amalloy	dbleyl: you're welcome to what little of it there is
22:57	steven_t	amalloy: im talking about the shadowing issue
22:57	amalloy	yes, and i was asking how ruby solves the shadowing issue
22:58	steven_t	i guess technically ruby has the same issue.. you cant name a variable puts without forcing later calls to puts in that method to be written as Kernel::puts
22:58	amalloy	likewise clojure.core/cons
22:58	steven_t	right
22:58	steven_t	so i guess its not a real issue. not like in C at least
22:58	amalloy	it's not really one in c either, in my experience
22:59	steven_t	okay well im on page 18.. ill be back when im not so inexperienced with cloj :)
22:59	amalloy	you should avoid globals, and if you're shadowing something from your own function inside a more deeply-nested block in the same function, your code has other problems
22:59	amalloy	enjoy it!
23:04	pdk	keeping variables within the narrowest scope appropriate for them is good practice in any language
23:04	pdk	save for those that don't really have a concept of scope like old versions of basic, there you're forced to make it all global
23:35	amalloy	ninjudd: how do i set vm args for my cake tasks?
23:43	Raynes	There is a section of the README on setting JVM options, if that's what you mean: http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
23:44	amalloy	thanks Raynes. yes, i want to adjust the stack/heap sizes