#clojure – 2010-10-15

2010-10-15

00:10	hiredman	clojurebot: scala is <reply>see: http://harrah.github.com/browse/samples/compiler/scala/tools/nsc/typechecker/ConstantFolder.scala.html#65760
00:10	hiredman	ping?
00:10	clojurebot	PONG!
00:15	_rata_	how can I have multiple mutually-referencing objects in one atom?
00:29	LauJensen	Good morning all
00:36	kmc	hi LauJensen :)
00:37	notsonerdysunny	Good morning LauJensen
00:37	notsonerdysunny	does any of you have trouble with logging into clojuredocs.org?
00:38	notsonerdysunny	if I try to login with my google-openid it very often hangs.. I would be lucky if I get in..
00:41	LauJensen	Never even heard of clojuredocs until now :)
00:42	notsonerdysunny	I think it would be a nice place to contribute while we learn to use the stuff ourselves
00:42	notsonerdysunny	It has been around for a while now
00:43	notsonerdysunny	we can add the things which we try out as examples for others to see and learn
00:43	notsonerdysunny	very nice model I think
00:44	LauJensen	Just signed in without any problems
00:45	LauJensen	Interesting project
00:45	notsonerdysunny	:) thats nice ..
00:45	notsonerdysunny	but I have trouble
00:45	notsonerdysunny	did you use your google openid?
00:47	LauJensen	I dont think I got it from google, just openid.com
00:49	ohpauleez	,(isa? #{1} #{})
00:49	clojurebot	false
00:49	ohpauleez	,(isa? #{} clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet)
00:49	clojurebot	false
00:49	ohpauleez	According to the doc, this only works if they are =
00:49	notsonerdysunny	,(supers (class #{}))
00:49	clojurebot	notsonerdysunny: Gabh mo leithscéal?
00:49	notsonerdysunny	->(supers (class #{}))
00:49	sexpbot	⟹ #{clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IFn clojure.lang.Seqable java.util.Set clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Runnable clojure.lang.Counted java.lang.Object clojure.lang.IEditableCollection clojure.lang.APersistentSet clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.AFn java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.IPers... http://gist.github.com/627632
00:52	ohpauleez	So how do you see if a child is the same type/subtype?
00:52	ohpauleez	Do I just do = on type()? That seems too verbose
00:56	amalloy	morning all
01:02	LauJensen	morning amalloy
01:16	kmc	hi amalloy
01:16	ohpauleez	good morning amalloy
01:24	kmc	a friendly bunch here
01:24	kmc	more greetings than other channels :)
01:24	amalloy	i know! it's almost like i'm living the dream of my youth: have friends
01:25	kmc	haha
01:26	ubii	anyone going to clojure-conj?
01:32	amalloy	apparently it's going to be more like an identity than a conj...
01:39	ubii	just curious how many attendees they planned for
01:39	ubii	looks like they still have some tickets left
01:39	amalloy	i suspect a lot of the people who are going are in bed
01:40	amalloy	since it's late at the conj site
01:40	ubii	yep, figured
01:40	ubii	will ask again in the morning
01:44	kmc	north carolina eh
01:45	kmc	$350 eh
01:45	kmc	err $250
01:45	amalloy	kmc: you're on the east coast. you could practically walk there
01:46	kmc	Walking directions to Durham, NC: VA-49 S. 697 mi. 9 days 4 hours
01:46	amalloy	and the conj starts...in about 10 or 11 days?
01:46	hiredman	8
01:47	amalloy	kmc: better get walking
01:47	replaca	ubii: yeah. I'm going. why?
01:48	ubii	was just curious how big of a crowd they were expecting, as I am thinking of going
01:48	replaca	I think it's going to be about 200.
01:48	ubii	wow, bigger than what I thought
01:48	replaca	That should be a really nice size gorup
01:49	replaca	Lots of interaction between folks
01:49	replaca	I think it's going to be a lot of fun. (Assuming you're a geek like the rest of us ;))
01:51	ubii	20+ years in IT, guess that makes me geek enough :)
01:51	ubii	just wish that I would have found out about the conference sooner, so I could have made arrangement to go
01:52	ubii	s/arrangement/arrangements
01:53	replaca	well, we'll miss you.
01:53	replaca	I know they did everything they could think of to make sure interested floks would know about it
01:54	replaca	*folks - wow I'm tired tonight :)
01:55	ubii	well, I have have been so busy with work the last 9 months or so that I haven't been able to do much with clojure lately, hence the reason I just found out about the conference
01:56	replaca	yeah, I've hd that sort of thing happen to me as well
01:56	replaca	luckily not this time
01:57	ubii	been stuck doing mostly ruby, html, css, and javascript, when I would prefer to have been working with clojure :(
01:57	replaca	still only a few clojure jobs out there, but there are beginning to be more and more
01:58	_ato	heheh, you can do much worse than having to work in Ruby :-)
01:58	replaca	ain't that the truth
01:58	ubii	just started to force myself to spend what little extra time I have to continue to learn clojure and hopefully start using it in the work that I do
02:00	ubii	true, I could be stuck doing .Net development
02:00	ubii	or COBOL, like what my wife does :)
02:00	Crowbar7	ohh christ COBAL\
02:01	ubii	hmm, I wonder which would be more painful, visual basic or COBOL?
02:01	Scriptor	I don't think vb is that bad at all nowadays
02:01	amalloy	perl-compatible basic cobol-script
02:02	ubii	what little vb experience I have was from the pre .Net days
02:03	ubii	have had to work with C# and ASP.NET a bit and really did not like it
02:03	Crowbar7	the .net is better the nthe PHP I have to use
02:04	Crowbar7	wtf PHP calling classes starts with the same sign as a variable
02:04	Scriptor	calling classes?
02:04	Crowbar7	$class->function
02:04	Scriptor	so you mean method calls?
02:04	Crowbar7	yeah
02:04	Crowbar7	sorrt
02:04	Scriptor	or class::function()
02:04	amalloy	Crowbar7: you mean $object->function? class::function()
02:04	Crowbar7	more or less yeah
02:05	Scriptor	well, that makes sense
02:05	amalloy	yeah
02:05	Scriptor	an object is a variable, and you're calling a method on that object
02:05	amalloy	not standing up for php's $ syntax here, but it's totally consistent
02:05	Scriptor	one of the few times it is consistent, mind you
02:06	Crowbar7	what is not consistant is it's function naming scheme for core functins
02:06	Crowbar7	functions
02:06	ubii	have to say that I would take Perl over PHP
02:06	Crowbar7	^^
02:06	Scriptor	I'd definitely take Perl 6
02:06	Crowbar7	I would take JAVA even over PHP
02:07	Scriptor	eh, I think I'd prefer dynamic languages for web dev
02:07	Crowbar7	I hate it so much, but maybe working with it 80% of the time does not help.
02:07	LauJensen	Did you guys try #clojure-casual ? :)
02:07	Crowbar7	:0
02:07	Crowbar7	p
02:07	Crowbar7	:p
02:08	Crowbar7	I'm going to try writing an asterisk lib in clojure just for fun to be honest.
02:08	Crowbar7	if it actually works I might put it in clojars
02:10	ubii	LauJensen: sorry, we will stop yacking about these other inferior languages :)
02:14	ubii	I wonder if there are any plans to record the presentations and make them available online, for folks who are not able to attend the conference
02:15	LauJensen	np
02:15	amalloy	ubii: i heard someone say yes, or slides at least, but that is a non-authoritative answer
02:15	LauJensen	ubii: It has been requested by several Europeans, but I dont know if the host can make it happen yet
02:19	ubii	it would be cool, if they could, as I am not sure that I will be able to make it to the conference
02:19	Bahman	Hi all!
02:19	amalloy	hey, this is a nice feature. i can attach :arglists metadata even to vars that aren't explicitly functions
02:20	LauJensen	Bahman: Hey
02:21	Bahman	LauJensen: Hey.
02:23	ubii	hmm, the conference is an 18 hour drive from where I live and if I drive 120mph, than that is only a mere 9 hours :)
02:25	ubii	actually, I would fly, but I am sure that with it only a week away, that the flights will be pricey
02:26	amalloy	hrm. i found some of my old code which is doing (apply concat (for ...)). can anyone think of a reason not to use mapcat there?
02:33	Derander	I'm coming from ruby. I see the analogues of most of the sequence manipulation stuff I'm used to. Map, reduce, some, all good stuff. I cannot for the life of me find "each" though
02:33	replaca	ubii: you might be right, but why not check anyway. You might be surprised
02:33	Derander	How can I call a function on each element of a list?
02:34	replaca	ubii: especially if you stay over sat. night
02:34	amalloy	Derander: that's the same as map, in a functional language
02:34	ubii	replaca: not too worried about the cost of the flight, the biggest concern is the lack of available rooms at the Hilton
02:34	ubii	looks like they are completely booked on the 21st and 22nd
02:34	amalloy	ie, if the function you want to call doesn't have side effects
02:34	Derander	amalloy: even if I don't care what the return values are?
02:35	amalloy	Derander: the idiomatic way then would be doseq
02:35	replaca	ubii: yeah, probably means you'd want to look around for a cheap car, unless there's another hotel right next door
02:35	Derander	amalloy: aaahaaaaaa.
02:35	amalloy	,(doseq [x (range 3)] (print x))
02:35	clojurebot	012
02:35	replaca	I don't know the area, but you might want to check that out
02:35	Derander	amalloy: thanks, I didn't look under "force evaluation of sequence" in the clojure api
02:35	Derander	that's exactly what I want
02:36	ubii	replaca: I will look into my options in the morning
02:36	amalloy	Derander: the other possible solutions are dotimes, doall, and dorun, depending on what data structure you already have
02:36	amalloy	(anything with side effects either starts with do, or ends with !, as a general rule)
02:36	clojurebot	() invokes the form inside, but there is an implied str call. The semantics are different inside the interpolated string, necessarily so.
02:36	Derander	good to know
02:36	amalloy	clojurebot: wtf?
02:36	clojurebot	I don't understand.
02:37	Derander	I am writing a queueing doodad. It pulls a list of changed files and dispatches them to callbacks
02:37	Derander	and I was just trying to figure out a way to actually call the goddamn function
02:37	Derander	s
02:37	amalloy	hahaha
02:37	amalloy	,(doc dorun)
02:37	zkim	ola
02:37	clojurebot	"([coll] [n coll]); When lazy sequences are produced via functions that have side effects, any effects other than those needed to produce the first element in the seq do not occur until the seq is consumed. dorun can be used to force any effects. Walks through the successive nexts of the seq, does not retain the head and returns nil."
02:38	amalloy	is probably better than doseq for your case
02:39	Derander	amalloy: I have a list of files that have changed that I want to pass off to another handling function
02:39	amalloy	,(let [x (map println (range 4))] true)
02:39	clojurebot	true
02:39	LauJensen	Worth a read: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3906276/whats-the-difference-between-cake-and-leiningen#3939930
02:39	amalloy	,(let [x (map println (range 4))] (dorun x) true)
02:39	clojurebot	true
02:39	clojurebot	0 1 2 3
02:39	Derander	from my brief reading, isn't dorun more for force-generating a lazy sequence?
02:39	Derander	yeah, my list isn't lazy
02:39	amalloy	if your list isn't lazy, then what's the problem?
02:40	Derander	well, I'm not sure how to call a function on each element of a list in clojure
02:40	Derander	in ruby I'd say [1,2,3].each {\|e\| puts e}
02:40	amalloy	sure
02:40	amalloy	in clojure it would usually be map, but map is lazy
02:40	Derander	oooooooooh
02:40	amalloy	or, you could use doseq to construct the map and consume it all at once
02:41	amalloy	or, use map to make it, and dorun to force it
02:41	Derander	okay. I was missing that part
02:41	Derander	in ruby I'd only use map if I wanted to transmute a seq
02:41	LauJensen	amalloy: doseq to construct the map ?
02:41	amalloy	LauJensen: to uh...construct the seq
02:42	amalloy	oh
02:42	LauJensen	with doseq which is intended for side effects?
02:43	amalloy	,(doseq [x (range 4)] (print x))
02:43	amalloy	,(dorun (map print (range 4)))
02:43	clojurebot	0123
02:43	clojurebot	0123
02:43	amalloy	are the two things i'm suggesting
02:43	Derander	all is well now
02:43	amalloy	yeah, but now LauJensen is telling me i'm wrong
02:43	Derander	superfically doseq does what I want it to without any extra code
02:44	amalloy	yeah, i think doseq is a drop-in replacement for each
02:44	LauJensen	amalloy: Im just saying, doseq is for side-effects, so if you actually want to generate a return, use 'for'. Otherwise you're back in imperative land
02:44	LauJensen	its the word 'generate' that doesnt fit
02:44	LauJensen	,(doseq [x (range 5)] x)
02:44	amalloy	LauJensen: which is why i said generate and consume
02:44	clojurebot	nil
02:44	LauJensen	,(for [x (range 5)] x)
02:44	clojurebot	(0 1 2 3 4)
02:44	kmc	you could use dorun with map, right?
02:44	LauJensen	kmc: sure
02:44	amalloy	kmc: yeah, i suggested that
02:44	kmc	,(dorun (map print [1 2 3]))
02:45	Derander	(doseq [file (filter #(>= 0 (.compareTo last-check (Date. (last-modified %)))) (list-desktop-files))] (process file)) is the code that I'm running
02:45	clojurebot	123
02:45	kmc	ah, i missed it
02:45	LauJensen	amalloy: nothing is generated, its a naive loop
02:45	kmc	,(defn mapM_ [f & xs] (doseq (apply map f xs))) ;)
02:45	clojurebot	DENIED
02:45	amalloy	,(doc pos?) ; Derander might want this instead of >= 0
02:45	clojurebot	"([x]); Returns true if num is greater than zero, else false"
02:46	Derander	amalloy: unless the doc lies, that doesn't include zero
02:46	Derander	yeah, I need it
02:46	amalloy	oh right
02:46	Derander	it'd be a sweet replacement otherwise
02:47	Derander	sweeet. now all I have to do is write my callbacks
02:48	amalloy	LauJensen: how is that semantically different from a lazy seq, which never realizes more than one element at a time?
02:48	amalloy	Derander: the plumbing is done, now all i have to do is build a house?
02:49	Derander	exactly
02:49	Derander	the fun part
02:49	amalloy	true that
02:49	Derander	first clojure project: engage
02:51	amalloy	Derander: hosting it on github?
02:51	Derander	if I ever finish anything
02:51	Derander	right now it's all over 10 lines of code
02:51	Derander	all of
02:52	amalloy	heh, i shared a repo that was only 8 lines the other day
02:52	Derander	:P
02:53	amalloy	i like to get version control as soon as there's a single line, because i tend to mess stuff up and then forget how to fix it
02:53	LauJensen	amalloy: How is what different?
02:53	Chousuke	you should at least make a local git repo :P
02:53	amalloy	LauJensen: a simple loop/recur
02:53	Chousuke	it's easy to push to github later
02:54	LauJensen	amalloy: loop/recur vs doseq are similar in that you can have local changes, ie side-effects. Its not what I would call idiomatic to functional programming however (though can still be pure)
02:55	amalloy	LauJensen: oh for sure, avoid them if at all possible
02:56	LauJensen	amalloy: Yea, and rarely is it not possible. Most loop/recur cans be replaced by reduce, unless you need short-circuiting of some kind. doseq shouldnt be used for any kind of generation, only side-effects
02:56	Derander	okay, I'm sorry
02:57	amalloy	haha
02:57	Derander	if I have a list of conditions that I want to check against, how should I iterate through them idiomatically?
02:57	Derander	(filter #(and (not (= ".DS_Store" %)) (not (= ".localized" %))) (seq files))) is the current line
02:57	Derander	gargh. it's so mind bending
02:57	LauJensen	looks good
02:57	amalloy	do you want the first true one, or all of them or what?
02:58	Derander	I want it to do that, but I want to have a lot more files that I'm blacklisting
02:58	Derander	basically I want to be able to pull from a list, (".DS_Store" ".localized" "screw_this_file")
02:58	Derander	can I do something like (not (in bad-word-list file))?
02:58	amalloy	,(not-any? #{'a 'q 7} [4 6 8 0])
02:58	clojurebot	true
02:58	amalloy	,(not-any? #{'a 'q 7} [4 6 'q 0])
02:58	clojurebot	false
02:58	Derander	oh.
02:58	Derander	gah.
02:58	Derander	sorry to waste your time
02:59	amalloy	haha no
02:59	amalloy	it's fun
02:59	LauJensen	Derander: you can put your criteria in another function (filter meets-requirements? seq)
02:59	amalloy	plz ask moarrrr
02:59	LauJensen	afk
02:59	amalloy	Derander: my not-any? is using a set #{1 5 6} as a function
02:59	Derander	amalloy: yeah
02:59	amalloy	when called as a function, sets check whether they contain the argument passed
03:00	amalloy	k
03:01	Derander	okay, trying to write my own version
03:01	amalloy	all righty. don't hesitate to ask for as much or as little advice as you want
03:02	Derander	well, I've got another question
03:02	Derander	when should I use a set vs a list?
03:02	Derander	the docs don't state the performance characteristics
03:02	Derander	lists are just linked lists, aren't they?
03:02	amalloy	lists are just linked lists, yes
03:02	Derander	are sets faster for lookup?
03:02	amalloy	sets are arrays when they're small, and trees when they're big
03:03	Derander	oooh, they're sneaky.
03:03	Derander	basically I'm wondering if I shouldn't make my list of bad files a set
03:03	Derander	because then I get the nifty syntax which you used in your example above
03:03	amalloy	you should, 100%, because of the way sets act as predicates
03:03	Derander	alright then
03:04	Derander	seems to work
03:04	Derander	sweet.
03:04	amalloy	the other thing you should consider (though not for this usage) is vectors, which are often better at being lists than lists are
03:05	Derander	I have noticed an abundance of vectors in clojure code that I read
03:05	Derander	I never use them because I'm used to elisp
03:05	amalloy	you want a summary of the difference between vecs and lists?
03:05	tobiasraeder	Morning everybody :)
03:05	Derander	amalloy: if you write it I'll read it
03:05	amalloy	heh
03:07	amalloy	lists have fast insert/delete at the front, O(n) random-access, and slow-but-not-awful insertion/deletion from the middle
03:07	Derander	okay
03:07	amalloy	vectors have fast insert/delete at the back, O(1) random access, and awful insert/delete from anywhere else
03:08	Derander	so basically linked list vs array
03:08	amalloy	not quite, because arrays don't have fast appends
03:08	Derander	oh, right.
03:08	amalloy	and clojure lists don't have fast appends, unlike linked lists
03:09	Derander	alright, thank you. that helps
03:09	amalloy	because the list is immutable, it can't just tack something onto the end of the list; it has to copy every object in the chain to give it a new next pointer
03:09	Derander	oooooooooooooh. I was wondering why.
03:09	amalloy	tricky, isn't it
03:10	Derander	I am very unused to immutable data structures
03:10	amalloy	so was i, three months ago :P
03:10	amalloy	but having vectors&lists is nice. for something that in elisp/CL you would have to build in backwards order and then reverse at the end, in clojure you can just build with a vector instead of a list
03:11	Derander	makes sense
03:11	amalloy	rich's immutable datastructures are the masterworks that make clojure possible
03:12	kmc	you can fast-append to the beginning, but not the end, of a persistent singly-linked list
03:12	kmc	i'm not sure whether Clojure's lists have this property
03:12	kmc	amalloy, indeed, i was so excited when i first heard about hash tries
03:13	amalloy	kmc: they do have this property
03:13	Derander	thank you for the information. I need to go to sleep now or I'll be worthless for programming tomorrow
03:13	kmc	has anyone here read Okasaki's book _Purely Functional Data Structures_?
03:13	Derander	Adiós
03:13	amalloy	buenas noches
03:14	amalloy	holy cow, the source for doseq is monstrous
03:15	amalloy	and for is even worse
03:26	amalloy	,(let [times (atom 0)] (dorun (pmap (memoize #(do (swap! times inc) (Thread/sleep 2000) %)) (repeat 10 1))) @times)
03:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Thread
03:27	amalloy	,(let [times (atom 0)] (dorun (pmap (memoize #(do (swap! times inc) (. java.lang.Thread sleep 2000) %)) (repeat 10 1))) @times)
03:27	clojurebot	4
03:28	amalloy	does anyone know a way to make pmap/memoize smarter? it's wasting cpu resources computing the same function four times in an attempt to memoize it
03:30	Chousuke	I suppose you could add a lock or something, so it blocks if the cache is being updated
03:30	raek	,(let [times (atom 0), f (memoize #(do (swap! times inc) (. java.lang.Thread sleep 2000) %)), _ (f 1)] (dorun (pmap f (repeat 10 1))) @times)
03:30	clojurebot	1
03:31	Chousuke	btw, (. java.lang.Thread sleep 2000) is better written as (Thread/sleep 2000)
03:31	amalloy	Chousuke: see above. i tried that but clojurebot doesn't like it
03:32	Chousuke	ah, right.
03:33	amalloy	wasn't sure whether he was annoyed by the / or the lack of java.lang so i just switched both
03:33	amalloy	,Boolean/TRUE
03:33	clojurebot	true
03:33	amalloy	,(Boolean/valueOf "true")
03:33	clojurebot	true
03:34	amalloy	man wth clojurebot? why not Thread/sleep?
03:34	Chousuke	It might just be doing some security checks.
03:34	Chousuke	and failing :p
03:34	amalloy	heh
03:34	raek	,Thread
03:34	clojurebot	#<clojurebot$eval4127$fn__4128 hiredman.clojurebot$eval4127$fn__4128@7c31af>
03:34	amalloy	,(java.lang.Thread.)
03:34	clojurebot	#<Thread Thread[Thread-1856,5,main]>
03:35	Chousuke	huh, why does Thread return a function
03:35	amalloy	,(meta (var Thread))
03:35	clojurebot	{:ns #<Namespace sandbox>, :name Thread}
03:36	Chousuke	,(Thread)
03:36	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: DENIED
03:36	amalloy	heh
03:36	Chousuke	I suppose Clojurebot is using the interpreter.
03:36	raek	-> (Thread/sleep 1000)
03:36	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
03:37	amalloy	->(. Thread sleep 1000)
03:37	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
03:38	amalloy	exciting. can we inject code to clojurebot by instantiating a Thread with some unsafe Runnable object?
03:38	raek	,(def x 5)
03:38	clojurebot	DENIED
03:39	raek	,(java.lang.Thread. (fn [] (def x 5)))
03:39	clojurebot	DENIED
03:40	raek	,(-> x def)
03:40	clojurebot	DENIED
03:41	raek	,((resolve (symbol "eval")) '(+ 1 2))
03:41	clojurebot	3
03:41	amalloy	raek: slick
03:42	amalloy	but i think it maps eval to a safer eval
03:43	raek	,((resolve (symbol "eval")) (read-string "(def x 5)"))
03:43	clojurebot	#'sandbox/x
03:43	raek	,((resolve (symbol "eval")) (read-string "(ns-unmap 'sandbox 'Thread)"))
03:43	clojurebot	nil
03:43	raek	,(Thread/sleep 1000)
03:43	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Thread
03:43	amalloy	,Thread
03:43	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: Thread in this context
03:44	amalloy	,(. Thread sleep 1000)
03:44	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: Thread in this context
03:45	raek	,((resolve (symbol "eval")) (read-string "(import 'java.lang.Thread)"))
03:45	clojurebot	java.lang.Thread
03:45	amalloy	,(proxy [java.lang.Thread] [])
03:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
03:47	amalloy	,(. java.lang.Thread sleep 100)
03:47	clojurebot	nil
03:49	amalloy	,(.join (. java.lang.Thread (currentThread)) 100)
03:49	clojurebot	nil
03:49	amalloy	,(.join (. java.lang.Thread (currentThread)) 30000)
03:49	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
03:53	amalloy	,(let [threads (make-array java.lang.Thread 20)] (. java.lang.Thread enumerate threads) (dorun (map print threads)))
03:53	clojurebot	#<Thread Thread[main,5,main]>#<Thread Thread[pool-1-thread-1,5,main]>#< Thread[Smack Packet Writer (0),5,main]>#< Thread[Smack Packet Reader (0),5,main]>#<Thread Thread[Smack Keep Alive (0),5,main]>#<Thread Thread[Smack Listener Processor (0),5,main]>#<OutputThread Thread[class org.jibble.pircbot.OutputThread-Thread,5,main]>#<Thread Thread[pool-2-thread-1,5,main]>#<Thread Thread[pool-1-thread-2,5,main]>#<TimerThread Thread
03:54	amalloy	aha. and we could call .destroy on all of those
03:57	amalloy	,(reify Runnable)
03:57	clojurebot	#<sandbox$eval11118$reify__11119 sandbox$eval11118$reify__11119@121bcf2>
04:01	amalloy	,eval
04:01	clojurebot	#<core$eval clojure.core$eval@1415815>
04:02	amalloy	,(.run (reify Runnable (run [this] (eval "(def q 1)"))))
04:02	clojurebot	DENIED
04:02	AWizzArd	http://xkcd.com/722/
04:03	amalloy	,(.start (java.lang.Thread. (reify Runnable (run [this] (eval "(def q 1)")))))
04:03	clojurebot	DENIED
04:03	amalloy	meh
04:04	yangsx	hi, in my project.clj, I specifies ':resources "data"' to include the data subdirectory into the jar file, but all the files are put directly into jar without the path, can I specify the path in the resulting jar?
04:04	amalloy	yangsx: just put them in subdirectories under data
04:05	amalloy	eg data/foo/bar/baz.jpg should be in the jar under foo/bar/baz.jpg
04:11	yangsx	amalloy: Maybe I'm doing it wrong. I read the data in a let form in code. That is, for my code it's data/foo, in the jar file it's foo. Maybe I should use a ref to read the data.
04:12	amalloy	i guess i don't understand. and sorry, gotta head out
04:18	svdberg	any users of vimclojure here?
04:19	kryft	No, but I will become one once I actually start writing clojure. :)
04:20	raek	yangsx: one way of doing it is to put the data/ dir in resources/
04:23	xkb	I'm trying to run the repl from inside vim, using the ns i'm editting
04:23	xkb	but that doesnt really work
04:23	xkb	classpath only shows clojure jars
04:23	raek	i'm not aware of any way of adding a prefix to the resulting path in thst case
05:39	tobiasraeder	is it possible to read the contents of a symbol into a vector inside a macro?
05:39	tobiasraeder	as in being able to (map #(dostuff) contents-of-the-symbol)
05:40	carkh	if i understood you question well, i'd say no
05:41	carkh	your*
05:41	carkh	do you have an example ?
05:43	tobiasraeder	yes, one second
05:43	AWizzArd	What are the "contents of a symbol"?
05:44	carkh	if your macro call looks something liek this : (my-macro some-symbol) then some-symbol is totally opaque at macroexapansion time
05:45	tobiasraeder	http://gist.github.com/627922
05:45	tobiasraeder	like that
05:45	tobiasraeder	contents of a symbol as in my case a vector that is bound to the symbol
05:45	carkh	well your macro can see the value of fields at macroexpansion time and use it
05:46	tobiasraeder	and how do i do that exactly?
05:46	carkh	just put ~fields in place of <content-of-fields>
05:47	xkb	what does ~fields do?
05:47	carkh	let me test that though =/
05:47	notsonerdysunny	is there a way to search backwards through the history from the slime repl like we would do at a readline enabled terminal using control-r
05:48	tobiasraeder	@carkh seems like thats exactly what i was looking for and just beeing blind. i'll try if i can get it to work, thank you
05:48	tobiasraeder	@notsonderdysuny no idea :/
05:49	tobiasraeder	@carkh ah dread, i forgott one thing let me change the gist quick
05:49	carkh	notsonerdysunny: try alt-p
05:49	tobiasraeder	@carkh i edited the gist if you dont mind checking it again
05:50	carkh	tobiasraeder: mhh you know i don't like that macro at all
05:51	carkh	it could be a function
05:51	carkh	i think that's not exactly what you want let me come back to you in a few
05:51	tobiasraeder	@carkh the actual case is a bit more complex and deals with alot of java interop class/interface generation
05:51	tobiasraeder	okay, thanks
06:02	carkh	tobiasraeder: how about something like this http://gist.github.com/627945
06:03	carkh	but i really don't like it
06:04	tobiasraeder	yeah that might work
06:04	carkh	does this really needs to be done at compilation time ?
06:04	tobiasraeder	ill try to rework the class-name "-fields" into a map and just store the fields their
06:05	tobiasraeder	yeah its part of some really huge java interop stuff
06:05	tobiasraeder	i gotta grab some food, thank you for the input. if you care i'll let you know what i come up with in the end
06:09	carkh	http://gist.github.com/627945
06:09	carkh	sur i'd love to
06:09	carkh	sure*
06:41	xkb	any tips to improve this code: http://github.com/svdberg/clojurelisa/blob/master/src/clojurelisa/core.clj?
06:41	xkb	I'm planning to use it in a presentation on Clojure
06:42	xkb	its a fork from a blog-post, and I'm trying to make it more idiomatic
06:44	edbond	,(doc remove)
06:44	clojurebot	"([pred coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the items in coll for which (pred item) returns false. pred must be free of side-effects."
06:44	edbond	,(doc replace)
06:44	clojurebot	"([smap coll]); Given a map of replacement pairs and a vector/collection, returns a vector/seq with any elements = a key in smap replaced with the corresponding val in smap"
06:45	edbond	xkb: why not use remove and replace ^^ in remove-item and replace-item?
06:46	xkb	good tip
06:46	xkb	thanks
06:46	xkb	hmm.. only the predicate is a bit harder
06:47	xkb	as I need the nth item in a seq
06:52	edbond	then remove-item is ok
06:55	edbond	xkb: closing brackets don't need a new line
06:57	xkb	ok removed the two or three I found :)
07:39	jjido	What is the license of clojure.jar? Can I just package it in my project along with the readme.txt?
07:40	carkh	xkb: (def gen-pixels (grab-pixels gen-image)) inside a function, that's very bad style
07:40	cemerick	jjido: Clojure uses the EPL license.
07:41	cemerick	Whether that's compatible with your project depends upon your project's license.
07:41	jjido	Eclipse, I read that. I use LGPL
07:41	carkh	xkb: same for defn inside functions
07:42	cemerick	I know the GPL and EPL don't play nice together. Not sure about LGPL.
07:47	hiredman	http://gist.github.com/628066
07:48	notsonerdysunny	what are symbol macros?
07:57	xkb	carkh: was afk for a while, and just read your remark
07:58	xkb	I thought I removed all defn within functions :?
07:58	xkb	oh within the multimethod?
07:58	carkh	yes
07:59	xkb	should I use letfn?
07:59	carkh	and there are many defs in other functions too
07:59	xkb	or just factor them out?
07:59	carkh	well that's for you to decide =P
07:59	xkb	:)
08:00	xkb	what's the tradeoff anyway, between a let and a def within a function scope?
08:00	xkb	I usually use let bindings
08:00	carkh	a def will modify the toplevel var
08:00	carkh	same for a defn
08:00	xkb	but the guy who originally wrote this uses def all the time
08:00	xkb	ah
08:00	carkh	that's like introducing global variables
08:00	xkb	so even within a function scope it introduces a top-level binding?
08:00	xkb	nasty
08:01	carkh	iirc it all started with recompiling stuff on the fly (which i dislike a lot too)
08:01	carkh	yes it does
08:01	carkh	you can use binding if you want to redef stuff with a dynamic extent
08:02	carkh	or let for lexical scope
08:02	xkb	and stuff like in source-image? the file-chooser is within the do scope
08:03	carkh	you need to use let for the fileshooser
08:04	xkb	I somehow got something in my head not to use let with doto
08:04	carkh	also that's nitpicking but ... your closing parenthesis should not be on a line by themselves
08:04	xkb	that's wrong app/. :)
08:04	xkb	carkh: hey, I like nitpicking :)
08:04	carkh	=)
08:05	carkh	i think we need to call hiredman to the rescue then !
08:47	solussd_	why isnt a record a function of its keys?
08:49	solussd_	or field names i guess
08:55	tobiasraeder	it should be
08:55	tobiasraeder	iirc it implements ilookup so that should work
08:56	tobiasraeder	,(defrecord myrecord [name])
08:56	clojurebot	DENIED
08:56	tobiasraeder	anyway if you (:name (myrecord. "testname")) it returns "testname"
08:57	tobiasraeder	or did i get wrong what you were looking for?
08:57	AWizzArd	He wanted ((HisRecord. "x") :name)
08:57	solussd_	i'm looking for ((myrecord. "testname") :name)
08:58	solussd_	e.g. maps are functions of their keys
08:58	solussd_	,({:name "Joe"} :name)
08:58	clojurebot	"Joe"
08:58	tobiasraeder	yeah, got that wrong i guess
08:58	solussd_	so, while that works fine with a struct created w/ defstruct, it's a no-go w/ a record. :/
08:59	solussd_	*defined w/ defstruct
09:01	solussd_	guess I'm just wondering why
09:02	G0SUB	solussd_: because it doesn't make any semantic sense
09:02	G0SUB	solussd_: records are not functions of their keys. they are just a bunch of fields.
09:03	G0SUB	solussd_: if you need IFn like behavior, go ahead and implement that protocol for your custom type.
09:05	AWizzArd	solussd_: also records don't eval to themselves
09:05	AWizzArd	When you eval a record, for example in a macro, it becomes a map.
09:05	solussd_	ok
09:06	dnolen	solussd_: maybe it's just me but the lack of IFn seems to me like an oversite
09:06	dnolen	solussd_: http://gist.github.com/628148
09:06	solussd_	dnolen: that's what it feels like to me. Doesn't feel very idiomatic- feels more 'java-interopish'
09:06	stuartsierra	It is deliberate, but debatable.
09:10	_fogus_	You can say that again.
09:29	fhd	Hi. Can I somehow create anonymous types with instance variables?
09:29	stuartsierra	fhd: yes, with reify
09:29	fhd	I can create top level types with deftype, but I'd rather have them anonymous. proxy doesn't seem to support that
09:29	fhd	stuartsierra: Okay, I'll take a look!
09:30	stuartsierra	reify doesn't have instance variables per se, but it creates closures over locals
09:30	AWizzArd	And proxy not?
09:30	stuartsierra	I forget
09:30	AWizzArd	k
09:30	fhd	stuartsierra: I do explicitly need instance variables, sadly. An API requires that.
09:31	stuartsierra	oh then you need deftype
09:31	stuartsierra	but it can't extend concrete classes
09:31	fhd	stuartsierra: Yeah, and it works. But the types aren't anonymous, this bothers me a bit.
09:31	stuartsierra	you could gensym the names :)
09:31	AWizzArd	Interesting it would be if I want to make a deftype for a new stream. As java.io.OutputStream is not an Interface I can't inherit from it in a deftype.
09:33	fhd	So anonymous classes with instance variables are not possible in Clojure?
09:33	jave	hello
09:33	stuartsierra	an anonymous class really just has a generated name, even in Java source
09:34	fhd	stuartsierra: Yeah, but I can create as many as I want at runtime, because it appends a number.
09:34	fhd	stuartsierra: Um, not at runtime I guess...
09:34	stuartsierra	exactly
09:34	stuartsierra	Java doesn't create classes at runtime
09:35	fhd	stuartsierra: Then I should find a way to work around this. Thanks :) Such a weird API, I'll rewrite that in Clojure one day :)
09:35	stuartsierra	yeah, sounds weird. who uses public instance variables anyway?
09:36	fhd	stuartsierra: This project: http://github.com/spullara/mustache.java
09:36	stuartsierra	I think that's been ported to Clojure already
09:37	fhd	stuartsierra: You think? That would really make my day
09:37	fhd	It's so weird, I'm really one step from rewriting it myself...
09:37	fhd	Plus it's not on Maven Central...
09:38	stuartsierra	http://github.com/cgrand/moustache
09:38	jave	I'm doing some xml stuff with enlive but its a little bit awkward
09:38	fhd	stuartsierra: Isn't that something completely different? I stumbled across that too, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Mustache template language.
09:38	jave	I have to do some workaroudns like adding xml headers and namespaces, is there some existing xml frontend to enlive?
09:38	stuartsierra	dunno, never used any facial hair libraries
09:38	fhd	stuartsierra: :)
09:39	stuartsierra	I like my frameworks clean-shaven.
09:39	fhd	stuartsierra: I haven't shaved in days, and I partly blame this library :)
09:39	stuartsierra	Maybe you're a budding Longbeard.
09:40	fhd	stuartsierra: Not yet :)
09:40	cemerick	stuartsierra: hah! :-D (re: clean-shaven)
09:40	cemerick	Does anyone know of a free geocoding web service that doesn't have TOS restrictions like Google's?
09:41	jave	openstreetmap?
09:43	fhd	By the way, is unit testing common in Clojure? I know there are quite strong opinions on TDD, so I'm wondering.
09:43	cemerick	jave: it's certainly a map, but I dont' see an API?
09:43	jave	oh it has apis
09:43	cemerick	(not= unit-testing TDD)
09:44	stuartsierra	TDD isn't necessary in Clojure because Clojure code always works. :)
09:44	fhd	cemerick: Hence my question
09:44	fhd	stuartsierra: How about unit testing then? :)
09:45	jave	cemerick: I havent actualy coded anything m yself, but maybe you can have a look at the java client, its open source
09:45	cemerick	fhd: clojure.test is all about unit tests.
09:45	fhd	cemerick: Yup. And because clojure.test is pretty good, I thought unit testing might be real popular
09:45	stuartsierra	You can do TDD in Clojure with clojure.test or Lazytest or ClojureCheck or ...
09:45	cemerick	jave: its API seems to be defined by the HTML export from the map. Ick.
09:46	jave	well there are all sorts of apis to the data
09:46	cemerick	I'd like to match the awesomeness of e.g. (-> "http://maps.googleapis.com/maps/api/geocode/json?address=Holyoke,%20MA&sensor=false" slurp clojure.contrib.json/read-json)
09:46	jave	maybe have a look at the josm client
09:47	jave	well, I dont think openstreetmap is so much about api awesomeness. its about making user contributed maps
09:47	jave	and thats how I use it
09:48	cemerick	OK. I was looking for a geocoding API. Anyway, thanks.
09:48	cemerick	fhd: I use clojure.test extensively in every one of my projects, and it seems to be very widely used in general.
09:49	fhd	cemerick: Hm, I see. Do you use it test-first or test-later style?
09:49	cemerick	I probably tend towards a 20/80 mix, respectively.
09:50	cemerick	fhd: tangential Q: do you have much of a ruby background?
09:51	fhd	cemerick: I found that the REPL fulfils most of my TDD needs, so I didn't miss it so far
09:51	fhd	cemerick: No, I'm mostly Java/C++
09:52	cemerick	bummer; there goes my TDD stereotype ;-)
09:53	fhd	cemerick: Sorry :) I'm not a TDD expert though, just discovered it a while ago
09:53	fhd	cemerick: I've done a bit of Emacs Lisp before, and I couldn't imagine doing TDD with it at all, so I didn't really try it with Clojure
09:54	cemerick	Never got into it myself. Seems to me that testing simple stuff should be...simpler than TDD. And testing complicated stuff often ends up being...more complicated than TDD can support.
09:55	stuartsierra	That's what I'm trying to fix with Lazytest, don't think I've succeeded yet
09:55	_fogus_	I have a nice little segment in my talk about TDD :-)
09:55	fhd	cemerick: TDD is really nice for static languages, where you can't quickly test a function. Also leads to real nice object oriented design IMO
09:56	fhd	cemerick: But in Clojure, there's the REPL, so it's super easy to test specific functions. And it's functional, so creating object-oriented design is a bit weird
09:56	cemerick	_fogus_: looking forward to it
09:56	fhd	cemerick: I did get interested and ask some questions regarding how I could do specific things, and it seems to work technically. But I don't find it very nice
09:57	cemerick	stuartsierra: I'm afraid I've not looked at lazytest one bit. :-(
09:57	_fogus_	REPLs do not help much with regressions
09:57	stuartsierra	cemerick: no worries
09:57	stuartsierra	It's still evolving somewhat
09:57	fhd	_fogus_: That's true, the confidence from TDD is definately mising
09:57	cemerick	I'm a little behind on the cutting-edge clojure hackery from the past few months.
09:57	fhd	_fogus_: Then again, I haven't refactored my Clojure code much, so I don't really care
09:58	_fogus_	fhd: I'm confused. :-(
09:58	fhd	_fogus_: About what? :)
09:59	_fogus_	fhd: TDD, unit testing, refactoring... I'm not sure what we're talking about anymore. :(
10:00	stuartsierra	_fogus_: buzzword compliance
10:00	fhd	_fogus_: Well, TDD is basically unit testing + refactoring IMO
10:00	fhd	_fogus_: Kent Beck says, in a nutshell, that it helps create good designs because it encourages refactoring by providing confidence through loads of test cases
10:01	_fogus_	fhd: Oh I see. I doo TDD, but without the Ds
10:02	fhd	_fogus_: :)
10:02	cemerick	"Good design" does not come from a random walk through test failure.
10:03	fhd	cemerick: Well, the nice thing about TDD is that you use test cases to write "how" you want to use an API, and then you start writing the API.
10:03	fhd	cemerick: The weird thing about TDD is that you basically start writing crap, hard coding everything, only slowly moving towards an actual solution
10:03	fhd	cemerick: And then refactoring the hell out of that until you like it.
10:03	cemerick	Yeah, I understand the idea, and I've done that to some extent, but that's not helping with design, it's simply codifying it ahead of its implementation.
10:04	fhd	cemerick: True. I actually do that most of the time, TDD or not.
10:04	_fogus_	I like to write apps with the API that I am going to design.
10:05	lpetit	It has almost seemed to me (after having done that myself too, not denying my past errances :-) ), that doing TDD is easier when you already know the "field", the application domain of your problem.
10:05	fhd	All in all, I'm not really convinced by TDD. It does have some good points, and the designs created by it are often actually quite nice. But I don't think it works well in all languages, as Beck claims
10:05	lpetit	And hard to do in unknown fields/territories.
10:05	fhd	lpetit: Definitely.
10:06	lpetit	With clojure, once you know your "field/domain" well, you have the tools to go very high in abstractions, removing all the bits of code redudancy you find. Including your test suite.
10:07	lpetit	And once you know your application domain well, it makes less sense to "rewrite in TDD style" from scratch a new application.
10:07	fhd	lpetit: Yeah, I read somebody making this point: In functional programming, you write "what" you want, not "how" that should be achieved. Such code doesn't require tests.
10:08	stuartsierra	Great, so I've been wasting my time on test frameworks when I could have been writing real code.
10:08	fhd	Although confusing at first, I found it pretty nice that I don't have to bother with object-oriented design in Clojure. Makes things so much easier
10:08	lpetit	no, you will need tests. REPLs "on the fly" tests are volatile
10:09	lpetit	stuarsierra: of course you're just kidding, but I didn't see this smiley of you saying so at the end of your sentence ;-)
10:10	stuartsierra	:)
10:10	_fogus_	stuartsierra's world is crashing down around him
10:10	stuartsierra	typical
10:10	fhd	Sorry for starting this :)
10:10	fhd	I'm still trying to make my mind up on these issues, being pretty new to FP.
10:11	fhd	I've never done testing _without_ TDD, actually, so I wouldn't really know how to approach that :)
10:11	lpetit	fhd: it's the nice effect of using a language with less accidental complexity. But when you will be facing problems with more essential complexity, the need for designing things will come, again (but then, you'll add software complexity as you add problem domain essential complexity, and that's a big win)
10:11	jave	arent macro arguments supposed to not be evaluated?
10:11	stuartsierra	jave: not in the macro itself
10:12	stuartsierra	they usually get evaluated eventually
10:12	fhd	lpetit: Well, I find Clojure design _much_ _much_ easier than OO design for the simple problems I'm tackling.
10:12	lpetit	jave: you can see macros as functions "eating" source code
10:13	jave	its odd, because I'm using some macros from Enlive. but I need to clone and modify one of the macros
10:13	lpetit	jave: ... digesting source code, and returning source code :-)
10:13	jave	and it doesnt behave the same way
10:13	fhd	lpetit: Object responsibilities, tell-don't-ask, design patterns... that's really a load of accidental complexity :)
10:13	lpetit	fhd: normal, functions are simpler building blocks than classes.
10:13	AWizzArd	Does gen-class support mutable fields as deftype does?
10:14	lpetit	fhd: tell don't ask is interesting, but probably for true asynchronous message-passing systems, a la Erlang.
10:14	_fogus_	Erlang is the only OO language!
10:14	lpetit	AWizzArd: you can specify a "state", and generally you'll place a ref or an atom there
10:14	fhd	OMG
10:14	jave	oh noes, language wars...
10:15	_fogus_	:p
10:15	fhd	jave: Should be quick. This is the clojure channel :)
10:15	jave	:)
10:16	AWizzArd	lpetit: So gen-class won't have an as efficient field access as deftypes.
10:16	jave	I'm happy so long as I dont have to code in a language thats physically harmfull
10:16	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
10:16	AWizzArd	But deftypes can't inherit from other classes.
10:16	fhd	But I'm really impressed by Clojure so far. I just wanted to do a few quick experiments, but I ended up using it for a larger project.
10:16	fhd	Plus I'm giving a talk about it next week :P
10:16	AWizzArd	fhd: in Köln?
10:16	lpetit	AWizzArd: indeed
10:17	fhd	AWizzArd: Ja, aber in meiner Firma
10:17	AWizzArd	k
10:18	stuartsierra	By the way, anybody noticed that swank-clojure doesn't display errors in Clojure 1.3 ?
10:18	lpetit	fhd: interestingly enough, the set of reasons I came to clojure isn't equal to the set of reasons I'm staying with clojure. I discovered a lot beyond what attracted me first.
10:18	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: right
10:18	jave	clojure repl errors sometimes arent very helpful
10:18	AWizzArd	I end up typing *e all the time :)
10:18	lpetit	stuarsierra: no
10:24	edbond	does structs deprecated in 1.2 ?
10:24	xkb	Another question regarding my code at http://github.com/svdberg/clojurelisa/blob/master/src/clojurelisa/core.clj
10:24	xkb	I think the use of the multimethod mutate is not very benificial here..
10:24	xkb	do you agree?
10:30	@rhickey	bindings now get automatically conveyed to future calls and agent sends
10:30	@rhickey	http://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/b1bed1b1c936855801e6d6dd40e649fddb6c039d
10:30	stuartsierra	holy cow!
10:32	AWizzArd	Hmm, I am trying to grasp what this means.
10:32	stuartsierra	I don't know if I like that or not. I was getting used to saying "don't use binding"
10:33	stuartsierra	Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed.
10:34	stuartsierra	But how far down the chain does it go?
10:34	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: what does this update do with bindings under the hood?
10:34	jjido	is there a limit to the level of continuations in a CPS program? I am at hundreds and only getting started...
10:34	stuartsierra	If I do (binding [...] (send ... A)) and the action A sends another action, does it inherit the same bindings as A?
10:34	@rhickey	some notes here: http://dev.clojure.org/display/design/Improve+Binding
10:35	AWizzArd	Oho, looks like the Confluence Wiki :)
10:35	@rhickey	stuartsierra: all sends inherit the bindings at the point of send
10:35	stuartsierra	ok
10:36	AWizzArd	Oh very interesting indeed.
10:41	stuartsierra	Is this leading us down the road of first-class environments?
10:41	@rhickey	no
10:41	stuartsierra	ok
10:42	stuartsierra	good
10:42	@rhickey	e.g., no locals in this environment
10:42	stuartsierra	ah, yes
10:44	stuartsierra	Why do you always change the language while I'm trying to write a presentation? :)
10:44	@rhickey	these benefits convey to pmap, which uses future calls
10:46	@rhickey	AWizzArd: userland use of bindings should be unaffected by this, but this is much more efficient than manual rebinding a la bound-fn
10:47	AWizzArd	Sounds good, I will download that version tonight.
10:48	@rhickey	stuartsierra: I'll go back to sitting on my hands :)
10:48	stuartsierra	heh
10:48	lpetit	rhickey: good news !
10:48	stuartsierra	Just restrain yourself from making any earth-shattering changes for the next week, if you can, ...
10:48	lpetit	erm, not you sitting on your hands, of course :-)
10:49	xkb	stuartsierra: are you working on a presenation for clojure-conf? ;)
10:49	stuartsierra	you betcha
10:49	xkb	nice :)
10:50	edbond	http://faustus.webatu.com/clj-quick-ref.html#struct says structs deprecated in 1.2. Is this correct?
10:50	lpetit	rhickey: still didn't write a macro to automate the unrolling of first args ;-)
10:52	@rhickey	lpetit: they all end up being slightly different - I haven't spent the time to see what really could be generalized
10:53	lpetit	rhickey: oh
10:53	lpetit	ok
10:53	stuartsierra	edbond: structs are replaced by deftype / defrecord
10:54	@rhickey	lpetit: we're still in the process of getting it all configured, confluence jira etc
10:55	lpetit	rhickey: ok. but let apart the configuraiton, the titles of the other wiki pages seem interesting (though I will not have time to dig into them right now)
10:57	lpetit	stuartsierra: page on Modularity could be updated for ccw : it's now using the clojure.osgi project, and doesn't use the "eclipse buddies" mechanism anymore (but note that currently, clojure.osgi is still dependent on some Equinox aspect, though it's an implementation detail that could be gotten rid of when I or aav has the time to work on it)
10:57	lpetit	clojure.osgi v1.2.10 to be precise. (1.2 means "compatibility with clojure 1.2", 10 is just a classical version counter)
10:57	fhd	Gotta go, bye
11:05	stuartsierra	lpetit: thanks, updated
11:06	lpetit	stuartsierra: that was quick !
11:06	stuartsierra	anything to avoid writing this presentation :)
11:14	lpetit	stuartsierra: modularity page again. What does it mean to "work fine in Glassfish" ? In which scenario ? One clojure jar per webapp's WEB-INF/lib/ I guess ? Maybe being more explicit on this could help ...
11:18	lpetit	even git-revert is simpler than reverting with svn !
11:21	tobiasraeder	is there a way to put quotes into doc strings?
11:22	wooby	tobiasraeder: you can escape them like \"
11:23	tobiasraeder	ah okay, i guess emacs just screwed me over then :D
11:25	lpetit	tibiasraeder: install paredit.el, and you'll just be able to type " again inside a literal string to automatically get the \ for free (though not at the end of the string => then you'll have to escape paredit and type \ manually)
11:25	lpetit	Is it me that just gave an advice for emacs ? Wow, must be sick .. :-)
11:27	lpetit	Nooo, that's just a false sign of peace before the conj .... Embrace and Extend, gnarl gnarl gnarl ... :-E
11:29	dpritchett	I'm messing around in vimclojure and I notice that Meikel has bound <C-Up> to "UpHistory" but not <C-K>
11:29	dpritchett	any reason I shouldn't rebind C-K as well? I try not to use the arrow keys
11:32	tobiasraeder	@lpetit thanks a ton, using paredit but wasnt aware of that
11:57	ohpauleez	Does anyone know if there are videos of StrangeLoop?
11:59	defn	ohpauleez: they are filming a lot of it
11:59	defn	but not /all/ of it -- which talk were you hoping to see?
12:00	ohpauleez	ah awesome, thanks defn. No one in particular, just wanted to thumb through them and watch the ones that seem interesting
12:00	lypanov	anyone know how to get vimclojure to print out output from commands executed on the cmdline on the go rather than buffering it all?
12:00	defn	yeah fortunately/unfortunately they cost of the ticket didn't permit a lot of the perks some confs have
12:00	ohpauleez	I skipped StrangeLoop for conj, and had to cancel the conj trip because of work
12:00	defn	oh no!
12:00	defn	i met chouser yesterday which was cool
12:01	ohpauleez	Awesome!
12:01	cemerick	rhickey: that's a helluva change!
12:01	defn	i drove to strangeloop so i could handle the cost of flying down to conj
12:01	cemerick	Get them all out of the way now, plz. ;-) (sorry, chouser, _fogus_ )
12:02	ohpauleez	cemerick: Don't be sorry, they get a free second edition now :)
12:02	ohpauleez	lypanov: You want to pipe the output to another shell/console?
12:02	@rhickey	cemerick: well, it's been a known wart for a while, must be removed to make way for easier parallelism
12:02	ohpauleez	instead of the designated buffer?
12:02	lypanov	ohpauleez: just into the buffer at the time its happening rather than queuing it up.
12:03	lypanov	ohpauleez: (when using "send top level")
12:03	cemerick	rhickey: for sure, it's a welcome change. I can't think of any immediate downsides -- do you know of any?
12:03	_fogus_	cemerick: I don't follow
12:03	ohpauleez	Ahh, Yeah, I don't know how to do that. I think it's based on the semantics (Looks for the exit code of the process)
12:03	@rhickey	so, who's ready for a bifurcation of vars into dynamically rebindable and not?
12:04	jjido	does Clojure have a function to compare two Comparables? < does not work
12:04	lpetit	rhickey: would affect REPL user xperience ?
12:04	@rhickey	cemerick: no downsides, as the perf is nearly ideal, one thread local reference, no copies, no cost dependent on number of vars
12:05	ohpauleez	_fogus_: He wants all the changes out of the way for writing the book.
12:05	@rhickey	lpetit: in what way?
12:05	lpetit	rhickey: you tell me :-)
12:05	lpetit	rhickey: redefinition, I mean
12:05	jjido	rhickey: sounds interesting
12:05	cemerick	rhickey: perhaps a bifurcation would mean that this non-dynamically-rebindable thing won't be called a var...?
12:05	notsonerdysunny	->(when-first [[x y z] [1 2 3 4 5]] (+ x y z))
12:05	sexpbot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
12:05	lpetit	rhickey: and potentially need for reevaluation of all dependent code ?
12:05	notsonerdysunny	,(when-first [[x y z] [1 2 3 4 5]] (+ x y z))
12:05	clojurebot	notsonerdysunny: Pardon?
12:06	notsonerdysunny	->(when-first [[x y z] [1 2 3 4 5]] (+ x y z))
12:06	sexpbot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
12:06	cemerick	_fogus_: just (foolishly) joshing the other authors :-P
12:06	notsonerdysunny	the above expression is return nil on my computer
12:06	notsonerdysunny	I was expecting it to return 6
12:06	_fogus_	cemerick: Thankfully, we can still squeeze in edits. ;-)
12:06	@rhickey	I have new ideas about how to make the non-dynamically rebindable vars still 'update-able', for the only viable usage - redefinition of fixed/enhanced functions
12:06	notsonerdysunny	can somebody clarify what is happening here..
12:06	lpetit	rhickey: maybe I should have first aksed: I don't see the use cases
12:06	@rhickey	so no re-eval required
12:07	lpetit	ok
12:07	@rhickey	but the perf benefits of direct/static binding
12:07	lpetit	seems like everybody is working hard not to produce conf slides ... :)-
12:08	@rhickey	cemerick: naming-wise, I'm thinking var and dynamic-var
12:08	@rhickey	cemerick: dynamic being something you ask for explicitly
12:08	lpetit	"consts" could be misleading ?
12:08	@rhickey	defdynamic
12:09	arkh	how do I import multiple classes from the same packege in a ns declaration? (e.g. something like this (ns my-namespace :import [java.util Date Timer])
12:09	_fogus_	lpetit: Done mine. :-)
12:09	cemerick	holy breakage, batman :-P
12:09	@rhickey	lpetit: const might be something else altogether
12:09	replaca	lpetit: I'm writing mine! But I'm way behind my ambitions as well :)
12:09	@rhickey	cemerick: no breakage except for dynamic rebinding of fns
12:09	cemerick	rhickey: right
12:09	cemerick	Not that I'm arguing against the breakage.
12:09	@rhickey	so, I'm here to listen to the moaning around that loss
12:10	ohpauleez	arkh: (:import (java.util Date Timer)) should work
12:10	@rhickey	arguably, mocking frameworks should be doing root rebinding
12:10	lpetit	_fogus_, replaca: good for you :-)
12:11	ohpauleez	(ns my-ns (:import (java.util Date Timer))) (arkh)
12:11	@rhickey	dynamic fns used for e.g. error handling could still be created, explicitly
12:11	@rhickey	dynamic binding for monkey-patching will die a deserved death
12:11	arkh	ohpauleez: I receive the following with that: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
12:12	lpetit	rhickey: and clojure.osgi which currently dynamically rebinds clojure.core/load ... :-
12:12	cemerick	,(binding [+ -] (+ 10 10)) ; But this is fun! :-P
12:12	clojurebot	20
12:12	lpetit	:-/
12:12	cemerick	oh, right, core is static these days
12:12	hiredman	dynamic binding is also used a lot for stubbing out functions for testing
12:12	@rhickey	lpetit: that's monkey patching IMO
12:12	hiredman	+ is inlined
12:13	lpetit	rhickey: for sure :-)
12:13	@rhickey	hiredman: see above, root rebinding more suitable, no?
12:13	cemerick	,(binding [+ -] (apply + [10 10]))
12:13	clojurebot	0
12:13	cemerick	true enough
12:13	ohpauleez	arkh: take a look at: http://gist.github.com/628461
12:14	ohpauleez	Is your :import in a s-expr?
12:14	hiredman	rhickey: yes, well, our tests have started moving down the road of using this with-var-root macro that alter-var-roots and then restores
12:14	arkh	ohpauleez: no - that was the problem, then : ( - Thank you
12:14	ohpauleez	arkh: happy to help
12:14	@rhickey	hiredman: exactly
12:15	hiredman	I am not sure which I dislike more, alter-var-root or binding
12:15	lpetit	rhickey: I see root-rebinding as even more "monkey patching" than "call-stack bound rebinding", non ?
12:15	lpetit	s/non/no/
12:15	sexpbot	<lpetit> rhickey: I see root-rebinding as even more "monkey patching" than "call-stack bound rebinding", no ?
12:15	@rhickey	lpetit: root rebinding is not something you would leave in place, just for testing
12:19	@rhickey	root rebinding will be possible, but it will be expensive as it will force all var caches to reload on next use
12:19	@rhickey	so, doing that on code reloads/evals is fine, doing that in tight loop is not
12:19	replaca	alter-var-root is great for setting up the program environment (processing command line args, reading param files and setting global parameters, etc.)
12:20	replaca	Purism is situational :)
12:21	@rhickey	I'm trying to find the middle ground between bind-once of ML and the high-cost of anything could change at any time, the latter being not very functional
12:21	@rhickey	in this model non-dynamic vars would be presumed constant throughout a fn body
12:21	_fogus_	rhickey: I needed it to simulate record invariants. No tight loops involved
12:22	hiredman	huh
12:22	@rhickey	this facilitates caching var contents
12:22	@rhickey	thread binding is reserved for explicit dynamic vars
12:22	lpetit	indeed, when anything can be rebound, it's hard to agree with blog posts which say that clojure-only functions only rely on the input arguments !
12:22	hiredman	the binding propagation will make my scope implementation that uses binding work across threads
12:22	@rhickey	on fn entry, a guard is tested that checks for _any_ var root alteration, reloads cache if needed
12:23	@rhickey	this way, you can reload without re-evaluating downstream consumers
12:23	ohpauleez	this change sounds pretty god to me
12:23	ohpauleez	good
12:23	@rhickey	but most of the overhead of dynamism is removed
12:23	ohpauleez	I appreciated the walkthrough rhickey
12:24	@rhickey	hiredman: supporting resource scopes was one of the goals for the thread binding improvements
12:25	@rhickey	but right now we all pay a high price for ever-possible dynamism
12:25	jjido	rhickey: is "at function entry" the right place?
12:25	@rhickey	I'm quite stoked, as this new model will avoid much of the brittleness of direct linking and static
12:26	@rhickey	jjido: where else?
12:27	@rhickey	jjido: there is talk of providing access to safepoints for alternative langs, might be a few releases of JDK away...
12:27	jjido	rhickey: it could be user-specified
12:27	lpetit	sounds reasonable. and the semantics make sense, don't they ? (def not-rebindable) (defdynamic rebindable) . Now really no more arguing on adding or not CL-like ++ earmuffs around not-rebindable ...
12:27	@rhickey	jjido: what would the choices be?
12:28	jjido	rhickey: nondynamic function, dynamic
12:28	cemerick	lpetit: I think I may be one of just a handful that ever used ++ anyway.
12:28	lpetit	heh
12:28	@rhickey	+ick+
12:29	@rhickey	jjido: to what purpose?
12:29	jjido	not sure ;)
12:29	lpetit	will read the rest on the logs, must drive home. cu buddies
12:29	@rhickey	jjido: non-dynamic == can't call fixed functions
12:30	jjido	rhickey: I didn't understand that
12:30	hiredman	done? for promises as has been a sore point
12:30	@rhickey	jjido: if you don't really have a use case, nevermind
12:31	hiredman	or actually await-for for promises
12:31	@rhickey	hiredman: ?
12:31	jjido	rhickey: ok.
12:32	hiredman	rhickey: a way in core to await on the delivery of a promise with a timeout would be nice
12:32	@rhickey	hiredman: yes, it's on the agenda awaiting a good design
12:33	hiredman	right, I am running through the new (to me) wiki
12:33	@rhickey	ah
12:33	hiredman	lots of excellent stuff
12:33	hiredman	(as per the usual)
12:34	hiredman	a compiler that explicitly passes state, sounds like a job for clojure.contrib.monads
12:34	@rhickey	hiredman: that blocking calls page is not ok by me yet
12:35	hiredman	ah
12:35	fliebel	Any Overtone hackers in here?
12:38	@rhickey	hiredman: the idea has support, that design, not
12:38	carkh	Lazy seqs + bindings : would it be possible to somehow attach bindings to closures ?
12:38	carkh	or would that make these lexical instead
12:39	@rhickey	carkh: you could, but the cost of establishing per seq step might be too high
12:39	carkh	attaching at closure instanciation time (tho i don't know know what's under the hood)
12:40	carkh	right
12:40	@rhickey	so, I'm still thinking about that but have delivered the first half (thread pool support)
12:41	carkh	to me the lazy seqs part is most important, but i can live with it as it is right now
12:41	kumarshantanu	hi, is there any clojure.contrib for dealing with conversion of keyword to/from camelCase strings?
12:41	kumarshantanu	or any project for that matter
12:41	carkh	kumarshantanu: i'd love to see that, and also for SQL type naming
12:43	@rhickey	so, no strong objections to defns becoming not-dynamically (thread-locally) rebindable?
12:43	kumarshantanu	carkh: SQL type naming as in database-agnostic types? :string {:limit 30} --> VARCHAR(30)
12:44	carkh	rhickey: to me rebinding these is bad style anyways
12:44	fliebel	rhickey: I missed most of this, but just defns, or any def?
12:44	cemerick	rhickey: a msg to clojure-dev pointing at the transcript might flush out a principled objection shrug
12:44	@rhickey	any def, there will be a defdynamic
12:44	fliebel	sounds good to me :)
12:45	carkh	kumarshantanu: nope just :hello-world becoming "hello_world" it's all easy, but it would be nice to have this kind of convertions all in the same place
12:45	carkh	rhickey: but you mean not even with the binding macro ?
12:46	@rhickey	carkh: the binding macro would only work with defdynamic vars
12:46	carkh	wew that's pretty destructive for old code
12:48	@rhickey	carkh: really?
12:48	@rhickey	presume we can easily make defs of foo dynamic
12:48	hiredman	well, using foo and binding all over the place is pretty horrible, so destroying it is good
12:48	carkh	hiredman: it is, but sometimes that's the best tool
12:49	technomancy	that is going to hurt testability badly. right now one of the things that makes clojure code easy to unit test is that you can rebind some of the functions it relies on.
12:49	kumarshantanu	carkh: I am writing some code and need camelCase to/from keyword conversions -- might as well write something and factor it out
12:49	hiredman	carkh: rarely
12:49	@rhickey	dynamic is only being removed as the default, not as an option
12:49	technomancy	if you have to indicate what can be rebound, you will start to need things like dependency injection
12:49	kumarshantanu	rhickey: technomancy: that's spot-on -- mocking dependencies is the biggest use case
12:49	@rhickey	technomancy: how so?
12:49	hiredman	technomancy: well there will be root rebinding apparently
12:49	hiredman	e.g. with-var-root or something
12:50	technomancy	ok, maybe I don't have enough context; I should wait till I hear more.
12:50	@rhickey	truly mocking/stubbing/injecting something requires more power than binding anyway, as that only affects one branch
12:51	@rhickey	everyone needs to be clear we are only talking about rebinding, not redefing
12:53	@rhickey	an aPI option is to trigger dynamics from the earmuffs (def dynamic-foo) == dynamic
12:53	carkh	hiredman: i have this now becoming rather large web application, i use binding at the top of the url matching tree as soon as i know the customer in order to "binding" the currency he uses, i can't imagine passing such a value trough all function calls without passing a state mage-object which in the end is not any better than rebinding vars
12:53	AWizzArd	So, in principle this only shadows older bindings, and releases them when the body closes.
12:53	carkh	mage->mega
12:53	@rhickey	that will minimize breakage for anyone using the convention
12:54	cemerick	please no sniffing of var names to hint semantics
12:54	@rhickey	let's not argue about dynamic vars, they have obvious utility and are used by Clojure itself, and are not going away under this proposal
12:55	@rhickey	cemerick: significantly reduces the breakage, and ensures the naming convention
12:55	jkkramer	could a warning be issued?
12:55	carkh	rhickey: huh the earmuff thing seems a bit too magical
12:57	@rhickey	(defdynamic no-earmuffs) will be considered bad karma though
12:57	defn	11:55 < jkkramer> could a warning be issued?
12:57	carkh	wouldn't it make sense to take the reverse option of going defstatic or def for dynamic as it is now ?
12:57	@rhickey	watning about what?
12:57	@rhickey	warning
12:57	cemerick	rhickey: Granted, but it's still bad. Not as bad as the -void-methodName black magic, but still bad.
12:58	@rhickey	cemerick: alternatives for breakage reduction welcome
12:58	jkkramer	"i'm making your-def dynamic but you should really use defdynamic"
12:59	danlarkin	my vote is against the name of a var influencing its behavior
12:59	carkh	and give us an error when trying to binding a static var
12:59	@rhickey	jkkramer: yes, more likely if we intend to deprecate the earmuffs==dynamic as a transition feature only
12:59	jkkramer	right
12:59	@rhickey	carkh: tat is certain
12:59	@rhickey	that
13:00	carkh	so why not defstatic+def instead of defdynamic+def ?
13:00	hiredman	def would not be the same as static
13:00	carkh	just like you need to specify that function is static and get dynamic by default
13:00	hiredman	in the case of defdynamic+def
13:01	@rhickey	carkh: because it's not static, there is a lot of code that presumes namespaces contain vars, dynamic vars will be Vars by inheritance if not by mode
13:01	jjido	Could we define an auto-dynamic variable pattern?
13:01	hiredman	it would just not be bindable, which is not the same thing
13:01	cemerick	rhickey: I don't have any alternative breakage mitigation suggestions at the moment. Adding and then taking away magical var names seems even worse than adding them at all, though.
13:01	jjido	using a regex
13:01	@rhickey	cemerick: even if it never makes a release?
13:02	jjido	That way you can use the earmuffs, dyn-something or whatever pattern you like
13:02	cemerick	rhickey: that changes the calculus significantly
13:04	amalloy	i don't understand the objection to carkh's proposal. leave def the way it is, and introduce a defstatic; that gives you access to the new language "feature", while not breaking old code that assumes it can rebind something
13:05	cemerick	amalloy: people wanting speed is more common then people wanting dynamic rebinding
13:06	ohpauleez	cemerick: I totally agree, but I kind of like the suggestion myself
13:07	ohpauleez	as far as migration is concerned. That said I really only use dynamic binding in the cases already mentioned and am fine working around them
13:09	hiredman	amalloy: that proposal rests on a faulty understanding of the choices and tradeoffs involved
13:09	cemerick	The same dynamic applied to the prim stuff: people care way more about perf in common cases than the generality of arbitrary precision.
13:09	carkh	tss ok static might not be the best word
13:09	carkh	but you get the idea
13:10	ohpauleez	cemerick: I actually thought of that as the counter example. People don't care about auto-promotion most of them time (in fact, I'm sure they rarely expect it), but when they want it, it's there
13:11	cemerick	ohpauleez: the same applies here -- rebinding is rarely used, but defdynamic is there when you need it
13:11	jjido	I like that Clojure can calculate factorial of 10000.
13:12	ohpauleez	I completely agree. I only use rebinding in the situations listed already, and I'm fine being explicit about them
13:12	ohpauleez	I retracted my statement from before
13:13	carkh	you might not have a big code base to take into account maybe .. cries
13:13	ohpauleez	You can't please everyone :)
13:13	jjido	carkh: but you can use refactoring tools on your code can't you?
13:13	carkh	what tools ?
13:14	ohpauleez	or a macro!
13:14	carkh	all i have is good old emacs
13:14	ohpauleez	I thought emacs had everything?
13:14	ohpauleez	:)
13:14	jjido	ohpauleez: exactly!
13:15	ohpauleez	carkh: sed will fix it for you
13:16	ohpauleez	all of this aside, do we really need the special binding-name-that-is-now-dynamic trick?
13:16	ohpauleez	I understand this change will break some projects, but those projects depend on an earlier version on clojure
13:17	_fogus_	This appears to break only one example in JoC, so I say it's a win. :-)
13:17	ohpauleez	Awesome!
13:21	amalloy	i agree it seems wrong to treat vars specially, but as indicated above i don't really understand the issues, so feel free apply a grain of salt
13:29	fhd	Hi. I'm about to do some string conversion in Clojure. I'd usually just read the string line by line and then add the modified lines to a StringBuilder.
13:29	fhd	However, that's quite imperative. Any hints on how to do this more elegantly in Clojure?
13:30	fhd	Specifically, I'm parsing a file and replacing some magics in it by the respective entries in a map.
13:32	kumarshantanu	fhd: Google's Guava is a nice library -- but it's Java
13:32	rlb	may need more details, i.e. can the pattern you're looking for span lines? Are you dealing with a lot of data overall? per-doc?, etc.
13:33	fhd	rlb: I'm not really worried about efficiency ATM. It's rather small files, a few hundred bytes.
13:33	fhd	rlb: The patterns cannot span lines.
13:33	rlb	fhd: slurp, replace the pattern, then dump?
13:33	fhd	rlb: Well, it's several patterns. There are tags in the file, like '{{SOMETHING}}'
13:34	rlb	fhd: or if you don't want to hold the whole doc in memory, use a line-seq, etc.
13:34	fhd	Then I want to replace each of these with the map value for the key :SOMETHING
13:34	fhd	rlb: I thought about just doing a few replaces, but that would be ~10 string replacements on each complete file. Don't find that too elegant.
13:35	rlb	how many items in the SOMETHING domain?
13:35	rlb	(max)
13:35	fhd	kumarshantanu: Does Guava have functionality for that? I'm actually trying to do it as Clojure-style as possible, but if there's something I can reuse...
13:35	fhd	rlb: Hm, I'd guess each item will usually pop up once or twice. And there should be up to 10 different items
13:36	kumarshantanu	fhd: Guava lets you read from a file line by line -- nice API
13:36	rlb	you could use a map (or doseq if you only want one line in memory at a time), and a function that just replaces all the patterns in that line before passing it on (via return or write)
13:36	@rhickey	_fogus_: what breaks in JoC?
13:36	fhd	rlb: Yeah, that's pretty much how I'd do it in Java. But I thought this was kinda weird in Clojure
13:37	rlb	(doseq [line (line-seq file)] (write-line ...))
13:37	kumarshantanu	fhd: see this example -- http://www.copperykeenclaws.com/googles-guava-java-the-easy-parts/ (Files.readLines...)
13:37	amalloy	fhd: i'm in favor of rlb's proposal. just define a write-line function that does the necessary replacements
13:38	fhd	amalloy: Hm, OK I guess.
13:38	fhd	I somehow thought there was some funky function for this in Clojure :)
13:38	amalloy	write-line can use reduce on a list of replacements to avoid writing .replace more than once
13:38	fhd	I'll just use StringBuilder then
13:39	fhd	amalloy: Hm, I'll look at that
13:40	nishant	Can I do a require :as from the REPL?
13:41	fhd	rlb: Why would I use doseq here? Isn't map fine too?
13:42	rlb	fhd: map should be fine as long as you don't hold on to the head of the result
13:42	amalloy	,(let [replacements [["a" "A"] ["b" "B"]]] (reduce (fn [str [from to]] (.replaceAll str from to)) "at bat"))
13:42	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Character
13:42	rlb	(or as long as you don't care if each doc's completely in RAM at some point)
13:43	rlb	and it's more flexible if you ever need that
13:43	fhd	rlb: I didn't really understand any of that, but I guess I'll just use doseq :)
13:43	amalloy	,(let [replacements [["a" "A"] ["b" "B"]]] (reduce (fn [str [from to]] (.replaceAll str from to)) "at bat" replacements))
13:43	clojurebot	"At BAt"
13:43	rlb	fhd: map returns a sequence containing the result
13:43	rlb	i.e. (line-1 line-2 line-3)
13:43	fhd	rlb: Ah, I see
13:44	amalloy	fhd: see above for a reduce/replace recipe
13:44	fhd	rlb: And doseq returns nothing and just does stuff?
13:44	rlb	doseq doesn't -- it's not a functional op
13:44	rlb	it's just for side-effects
13:44	fhd	amalloy: Thanks, pretty nice
13:45	rlb	fhd: but since map is lazy, and line-seq is lazy, then map won't keep everything in ram either, as long as no one holds on to the head of the result.
13:46	fhd	rlb: I don't really get the "holding onto the head" thing
13:46	rlb	i.e. (doseq [line (map ...)] (print line))
13:46	amalloy	,(nth (range) 100000000)
13:47	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:47	amalloy	,(let [x (range)] (nth x 100000000))
13:47	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
13:47	amalloy	fhd: the first of those examples will work, eventually, in a real repl
13:47	rlb	fhd: with a lazy seqence, the items of the sequence aren't computed until they're needed, so you can traverse an infinite list in finite memory as long as you don't hold on to the head of the list.
13:47	amalloy	because as soon as it's done with an element it can be GCed
13:48	fhd	rlb: So by holding onto, you mean keeping a reference to the element?
13:48	amalloy	the second one won't, because x is still referring indirectly to every element in range
13:48	rlb	fhd, right
13:48	rlb	i.e. (def ints (all-integers)) is bad, even if all-integers is lazy
13:48	fhd	rlb: Ah, I see. If I would hold references, all memory would eventually be consumed.
13:48	rlb	but (doseq [i (all-integers)] (prn i)) is fine
13:49	rlb	well, for some definition of "fine"
13:49	_fogus_	rhickey: rebinding an exception handler defn (and example in the final chapter)
13:49	rlb	it won't run out of ram at least
13:49	amalloy	rlb: well, fine except you're printing an infinite sequence :)
13:49	_fogus_	s/and/an
13:49	stuartsierra	eventually you'll run out of paper
13:49	rlb	nah, just electrons
13:50	@rhickey	_fogus_: so, exception handlers are still valid uses of dynamic fn vars (and the original motivation for allowing dynamic fns), but will have to be explicit about the dynamism
13:51	_fogus_	rhickey: It's the only use case that we mention. :-)
13:51	@rhickey	I'm considering retaining support for the :dynamic true metadata for this purpose, as a second set of dynamic def variants seems like a waste
13:52	@rhickey	_fogus_: you can slap :dynamic true on that now (harmlessly) and it might still work
13:52	rlb	fhd: easy way to play around with infinite lists in clojure is via cycle, repeat, or repeatedly.
13:52	_fogus_	rhickey: A footnote might be in order... we do not have enough of those.
13:53	_fogus_	;-)
13:53	_fogus_	!!! http://twitter.com/amitrathore/status/27464468779
13:54	@rhickey	nice!
13:55	kryft	Told where?
13:55	rlb	fhd: another thing to keep in mind is that if you're not used to laziness, execution may not happen when you expect it to. i.e. it happens when each element of the list is consumed. If the list is never consumed; no execution...
13:55	amalloy	kryft: at strangeloop
13:56	fhd	rlb: I guess I'll take the chance :)
14:03	_fogus_	Hmmm, just realized that the wording in the Var section might need to be adjusted also.
14:06	fhd	Are private functions in Clojure mostly a way to make people coming from Java happy or is their use encouraged?
14:07	rlb	fhd: it's not a problem, just the way laziness works, but I imagine it can be surprising
14:07	amalloy	fhd: i think they're encouraged. don't clutter namespaces with functions nobody will want
14:08	amalloy	if someone (use)s your library, they don't want tab-completion for your process-portion-of-file function
14:08	fhd	amalloy: Probably. I was mostly wondering because I don't think there's such a mechanism in other Lisps, so I thought it might not be Lisp-y
14:09	carkh	it is also encouraged to only use the symbols you need
14:09	rbanffy	Hi folks. Total newbie installed Clojure from ELPA. I would like to use 1.2 instead of 1.1. What can I do?
14:09	carkh	(:use [mynamespace :only [frobnicate])
14:10	technomancy	rbanffy: try the swank-clojure readme; sounds like you found some out-of-date docs
14:11	rbanffy	technomancy: Where can a total newbie find it?
14:12	fhd	carkh: Hm, I always use evertything.
14:13	amalloy	fhd: i do too, but it's a filthy habit, just like it is in java
14:13	amalloy	i just can never remember the syntax for using selectively
14:13	qed	I thought proxy was deprecated for some reason.
14:14	qed	Guy Steele just said to learn clojure.
14:15	amalloy	qed: your thunder has been stolen already
14:15	fhd	amalloy: Well, I kind of like .* in Java :P Hardly ever had any problems with that, and it's IMO worth removing ~100 files from each file.
14:16	qed	amalloy: I think that was me actually.
14:16	qed	I'm defn.
14:16	amalloy	qed: are you fogus too? :P
14:16	qed	Haha. :F
14:16	amalloy	fhd: .* is convenient if you're not using a decent IDE, but it means (for example) if you see a strange class like MagicDoStuff in the code, you don't know what package it's from
14:17	amalloy	but eg Eclipse will manage all the imports for you so that anyone readong your code knows exactly what classes come from where
14:18	fhd	amalloy: Yeah, but I'm usually on Emacs. Someone using Eclipse can actually see where the file is from by holding the cursor over it :) Well it's probably a matter of taste in the end.
14:21	amalloy	fhd: search google for "java style guide import .*", the first N hits say DONT DO IT
14:23	jjido	amalloy: because of name clashes?
14:24	rbanffy	technomancy: I see slime-lisp-options points to 1.1 Is there an easy way to change that?
14:24	amalloy	jjido: meh. that's only really a problem for java.util.Date :P. it just makes the code harder to read if you're seeing it for the first time
14:26	amalloy	i mean yes, it's obviously a style issue since the compiler doesn't care, but so are newlines
14:26	fhd	amalloy: There's reasons for both approaches, that's why I called it a matter of taste. The topic is quite controversial on the web apparently.
14:27	technomancy	rbanffy: yeah, you don't need swank-clojure.el, just clojure-mode and slime-repl
14:28	rbanffy	technomancy: That's confusing. All I wanted was to make M-x slime give me 1.2...
14:31	fhd	Hm, but there's one problem. When I make functions private, I cannot call them from the REPL for testing purposes anymore.
14:31	opqdonut	fhd: you can say (in-ns 'foo)
14:31	opqdonut	then they should be visible
14:31	fhd	opqdonut: Great, thanks
14:32	amalloy	or just (ns foo), which expands to the same thing
14:32	opqdonut	mmm yeah
14:32	fhd	amalloy: Isn't (ns) already included in (use)?
14:32	amalloy	fhd: no. use is a combined require/refer
14:33	opqdonut	yep
14:33	opqdonut	use imports the given ns into the current ns
14:33	opqdonut	ns or in-ns changes which ns you are in
14:33	fhd	opqdonut: Ah, okay
14:33	opqdonut	this affects the visibility of private stuff and also where defs go
14:43	duncanm	if i have a map {:a 1 :b 2} and i just want to keep the same map but increment all the vals by one, how should i write that?
14:43	fhd	Can I turn a keyword into a string?
14:44	fhd	e.g. :name -> "name"
14:44	duncanm	,(str :foo)
14:44	clojurebot	":foo"
14:44	fhd	wow
14:44	jkkramer	,(name :foo)
14:44	clojurebot	"foo"
14:44	duncanm	even nicer
14:44	fhd	Thanks :)
14:45	mrBliss	,(into {} (for [[k v] {:a 1, :b 2}] [k (inc v)]))
14:45	clojurebot	{:a 2, :b 3}
14:45	duncanm	mrBliss: that's kinda messy...
14:45	mrBliss	duncanm: indeed
14:46	duncanm	mrBliss: in my mind, what i want to do is to 'map' over the vals of a map and get back a map (and not a list of vals)
14:47	mrBliss	duncanm: unfortunately, that's not how seqs work :-( I've needed this too
14:48	amalloy	,(let [m {:a 1 :b 2}] (zipmap (keys m) (map inc (vals m))))
14:48	clojurebot	{:b 3, :a 2}
14:50	mrBliss	amalloy's version is faster on my machine
14:50	amalloy	really? i wonder why
14:51	amalloy	anyway you could easily write a generic map-over-vals function and then use that all over
14:51	mrBliss	zipmap is loop and recur and for is a bit messier. Also I create a new vector for every element in the map
14:54	hiredman	,(doc fmap)
14:54	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.generic.functor/fmap;[[f s]]; Applies function f to each item in the data structure s and returns a structure of the same kind."
14:56	amalloy	aha, nice
14:59	fhd	amalloy: Remember your replaceAll code from earlier? It works fine, but I don't really understand it. What does (fn [str [from to]] do?
15:00	fhd	amalloy: I presume it are the two values passed in from resume, but I don't really know that syntax
15:02	amalloy	fhd: do you understand destructuring yet?
15:03	fhd	amalloy: Haven't heard it in the context of Clojure yet, so I guess no
15:03	amalloy	k
15:03	amalloy	in binding forms like let and fn args, instead of just plain variable names you can give sequences
15:03	amalloy	that says "the thing that you will bind to this is a sequence; break it down and assign its elements to the variables i name"
15:04	fhd	amalloy: Ah, so the second argument is a vector?
15:04	amalloy	,(let [[a b c] (range)] b)
15:04	clojurebot	1
15:04	fhd	I see, cool.
15:05	amalloy	since reduce is iterating over a seq of [from to] vectors, and tracking a single string as the result, the signature of the reduction function is [str [from to]]
15:05	fhd	Because reduce always passes two strings in, I see
15:05	fhd	Pretty clever
15:05	amalloy	indeed, destructuring is amazing
15:06	fhd	But most of the time I look at Clojure code, I feel like it's far too clever for me
15:06	fhd	And when I happen to write clever stuff myself, I feel like an evil genious. Well, at least evil.
15:06	fhd	Does that change with time? :)
15:06	amalloy	haha not yet
15:07	amalloy	check out http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Fibonacci_sequence#Clojure for the thing that most recently made my jaw drop (i wrote the description at the bottom to help me understand it)
15:09	fhd	OMG
15:09	fhd	I wonder if I'd be better at understanding this stuff if I had studied maths instead of CS :)
15:10	amalloy	probably not. you just have to get used to functional programming
15:11	fhd	amalloy: I really like it so far, but I realised just recently that functional programming wasn't OOP with closures :P
15:11	Adamant	amalloy: laziness is awesome, huh? :)
15:11	amalloy	heh
15:11	amalloy	Adamant: it's not the laziness so much as the clever way of maintaining metadata that you throw away before giving out the result
15:12	Adamant	not holding onto the head and intermediate results? yeah
15:12	amalloy	i feel like i've fully grokked it now that i've written some code that comverts to/from base N that uses the same idiom
15:13	rlb	fhd: destructuring can also be useful when defining multiple function bodies, i.e. (defn foo ([x] x) ([x [y z]] (+x y z)))
15:13	fhd	rlb: Basically overloading, huh?
15:13	rlb	it allows more sophisticated argument matching
15:13	fhd	rlb: Yeah, I imagine it can make for real beautiful signatures
15:14	amalloy	fhd: depends on your notion of beauty. if you nest too deeply it starts to become unreadable
15:15	amalloy	and there are more advanced features for destructuring. for example:
15:15	amalloy	,(let [f (fn [{a :name, b :age}] ) (str a b))] (f {:age 9}))
15:15	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: )
15:16	fhd	amalloy: True. But I find it more explicit than passing an array or a collection that contains two elements
15:16	amalloy	,(let [f (fn [{a :name, b :age}] (str a b))] (f {:age 9}))
15:16	clojurebot	"9"
15:16	fhd	I need Clojure highlighting for irssi
15:17	fhd	Hm, that's essentially named parameters
15:18	amalloy	fhd: well, named parameters are a special case of map destructuring
15:18	mrBliss	fhd: Emacs comes with ERC
15:18	fhd	mrBliss: Haha :) Although an Emacs user, I was never a big fan of using it as an OS :P
15:19	amalloy	you can do map destructuring in more complicated ways, for example pull apart a map that's inside a vector
15:19	fhd	amalloy: Is that whole destructuring thing Clojure-only or general Lisp? I never did advanced stuff in Emacs Lisp, so I wouldn't know
15:20	amalloy	i believe CL has it but it's way less pretty/convenient
15:20	mrBliss	,(let [{:keys [a b c]} {:a 1 :b 2 :c 3}] [a b c])
15:20	clojurebot	[1 2 3]
15:20	fhd	I believe the variable parameter lists in Emacs use something similar
15:20	amalloy	lisp has &rest and &keys
15:21	fhd	Yeah, that's it. Then it's not destructuring
15:21	amalloy	and i think a destructuring-bind function that does stuff like clojure, but it's just harder to get at (like most lisp things)
15:21	Adamant	CL, please
15:21	amalloy	argh, i said CL last time
15:21	Adamant	I don't like the conflation of 'Lisp' with CL
15:22	amalloy	Adamant: it's a pretty...Common...mistake :)
15:22	Adamant	not that I don't like CL, but unless they plan to create another standard, formal or informal, it's a dead language
15:22	ohpauleez	amalloy: haha that was a good one
15:22	Adamant	oh yeah
15:22	Adamant	so good it's good while still being bad :P
15:22	Adamant	also, you must now put on the sunglasses while background music plays "YEeeoowww!!!!!"
15:23	amalloy	i prefer the drum sting while the audience groans
15:23	Adamant	hey, that works :P
15:24	fhd	When using line-seq, can I somehow preserve (to re-add) the EOL characters?
15:25	mrBliss	,(interleave [1 2 3] (repeat "\n"))
15:25	clojurebot	(1 "\n" 2 "\n" 3 "\n")
15:25	mrBliss	replace [1 2 3] with your (line-seq ..)
15:26	fhd	mrBliss: Well, I would like to preserve the EOL chars exactly as they appear, if possible
15:26	fhd	mrBliss: i.e. whatever stile the file uses, plus add one to the end or not
15:26	mrBliss	yeah I just saw it too
15:26	fhd	s/stile/style/
15:26	sexpbot	<fhd> mrBliss: i.e. whatever style the file uses, plus add one to the end or not
15:26	fhd	now that's neat
15:27	mrBliss	do you mean keeping \r\n or \n?
15:27	fhd	mrBliss: Yeah. If they're mixed, I'd like to keep them mixed. Don't want to play cop here.
15:31	technomancy	rbanffy: if you're still around, the short version is that it's very awkward to launch clojure processes from elisp because of the fact that the classpath must be known up front. so it's best to launch it with lein/cljr/etc and connect from Emacs
15:35	hsuh	why (= 1M 1.0M) is false?
15:36	amalloy	,(map class [1M 1.0M])
15:36	clojurebot	(java.math.BigDecimal java.math.BigDecimal)
15:36	amalloy	hm. dunno hsuh
15:36	ohpauleez	yeah, that's what I thought too
15:37	amalloy	it may be that bigdecimal keeps track of how much precision it's recording
15:37	amalloy	eg, for scientists 1 != 1.00
15:38	amalloy	,(map #(.precision %) [1M 1.0M])
15:38	clojurebot	(1 2)
15:39	amalloy	hsuh, ohpauleez: ^^
15:39	ohpauleez	ahh, for sure
15:40	hsuh	ok, but there should be some way of testing something like this without knowing the precision,no? (ok i see that zero? works for 0.00000M but anyway...)
15:40	_rata_	hi
15:42	raek	if you convert them to the same type, you can always compare them
15:43	hsuh	,(= (bigdec 300M) (bigdec 300.000M))
15:43	clojurebot	false
15:43	lrenn	,(= 0 (.compareTo 1M 1.0M))
15:43	clojurebot	true
15:45	hsuh	,(zero? (- 1.0M 1.000M))
15:45	clojurebot	true
15:46	raek	I'm not sure, but maybe java's requirements on .equals has something to do with this
15:46	hsuh	ok
15:46	raek	this was changed pretty recently too
15:48	_schulte_	so acording to http://clojure.org/lazy filter is not fully lazy, is that still the case?
15:48	amalloy	_schulte_: that proposal is very old
15:49	_rata_	how can I have multiple mutually-referencing objects in one atom?
15:49	fhd	Is there anything similar to "instanceof" in Clojure?
15:50	amalloy	,(instance? 1 Integer)
15:50	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
15:50	_rata_	fhd, instance?
15:50	_schulte_	amalloy: but is filter still non-lazy? I have some out-of-memory errors that would indicate that something in the take/filter/map/pmap/filter/repeatedly stack is not lazy
15:50	amalloy	,(instance? Integer 1)
15:50	clojurebot	true
15:50	amalloy	no, filter is lazy
15:50	fhd	Ah, great
15:50	amalloy	,(supers (class {})) ; also sorta useful maybe
15:50	clojurebot	#{java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Seqable java.lang.Runnable java.io.Serializable clojure.lang.APersistentMap clojure.lang.ILookup java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Associative clojure.lang.IEditableCollection clojure.lang.IPersistentMap clojure.lang.IObj java.util.Map clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.IFn}
15:51	_schulte_	amalloy: ok, thanks, on a related question then, do you know of a way to explicitly free an object, currently the GC is throwing out-of-memory errors because it's working too hard
15:51	amalloy	_schulte_: the GC will free things that aren't referenced anymore. can you post a gist or something so we can see what the problem is?
15:52	hsuh	,(or (> 1M 1.0M) (< 1M 1.0M) (= 1M 1.0M))
15:52	clojurebot	false
15:52	raek	http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Enhanced_Primitive_Support <-- mentions something about equality for number types
15:53	hsuh	tks
15:53	_schulte_	amalloy: sure, see http://gist.github.com/628831, something in this loop is running out of memory, the idea behind the code is to cycle through thousands of objects, dumping them to STDOUT and quitting after `out-num' successfull ones have been found
15:53	_schulte_	any ideas/feedback are much appreciated
15:54	plathrop	Do people tend to deploy their Clojure apps with some way to connect and get a repl inside the application?
15:54	plathrop	So you can do live changes?
15:55	hsuh	raek: tl;dr: is not a simple problem :)
15:55	raek	for development, I always run a swank server in the clojure instance
15:57	raek	for the projects that I have running but not currently developing, I keep a repl in a screen, just in case
15:58	hsuh	raek: but do you change stuff or its more for peeking around?
15:59	aavram	Hello, I'm having an issue getting the links to work in labrepl somewhat like as described here : http://github.com/relevance/labrepl/issues/issue/13 . I have tried removing the lib directory and ~/.m2/repository/ but still can't get the links to work. Any suggestions?
15:59	amalloy	_schulte_: how long does evaluate-asm take to run? it looks like you may be spawning zillons of threads at once before any of them complete
15:59	raek	in my IRC bot, I change stuff all the time
15:59	_schulte_	amalloy: <=8 seconds
15:59	hsuh	raek: i dont know if that is considered production :)
15:59	_schulte_	amalloy: ok, thanks, I'll try removing the pmap
16:00	plathrop	raek: I do the same in development and was thinking it would be cool when you actually deploy the app to have the ability to connect to arepl.
16:00	raek	well, I wouldn't consider that project production either
16:00	_schulte_	it'd be nice to be able to specify a threadpool size for pmap...
16:00	amalloy	your code mostly looks like it's fully lazy, so pmap is the only culprit that comes to mind
16:01	raek	a web app I made is running in the background, but I rarely touch that
16:01	_schulte_	great thanks, I was confident in the lazyness until I saw the clojure.org/lazy page which implies that the clojure core isn't quite lazy
16:01	hsuh	plathrop: that sounds like fun, being able to fix things on the fly and impress people... but on think it would be very popular IRL
16:01	raek	but it is neat to be able to inspect variables when it's running, if I need to
16:02	plathrop	It was a useful trick when I was using list.
16:02	plathrop	lisp even
16:02	plathrop	Common lisp even :-P
16:03	hsuh	plathrop: that habit can be transferred to clojure, no prob i guess
16:03	fhd	In the body of a (for, I can add elements like this [:hello :world]. Can I also add two blocks of elements?
16:04	hsuh	slime repl lets me connect to a running swank, change namespace, redefine functions, its neat...
16:04	fhd	I tried [:hello :world][:foo :bar], but it just ignores one entry
16:05	_rata_	fhd, what do you want to do?
16:05	_rata_	do you want to return the four values from (for ...)?
16:06	_rata_	then [[:hello :world] [:foo :bar]] would do it
16:06	fhd	I have a list of replacements that looks like this [["hello" "world"]["foo" "bar"]] etc.
16:06	fhd	I only added one replacement on each execution of (for, so this worked. But now I want to add two entries
16:07	fhd	_rata_: That would create a new vector, like this: [[["hello" "world"]["foo" "bar"]]["normal" "replacement"]]
16:07	fhd	It's the code amalloy\|afk gave me earlier
16:07	rlb	fhd: not sure you can easily preserve the ends as-is. You could either just pull in the whole doc and filter it via slurp and multiple string/replaces, or write your own lazy seq that keeps the endings. See (source line-seq). Of course the slurp approach will be more expensive.
16:08	raek	fhd: if I understood the problem correctly, you need to return a collection of things, and apply concat to the seq you get from for
16:08	fhd	rlb: I guess I'll leave it like this for now. Did some ugly (if (= line (last lines)) "\n") for now
16:09	raek	,(apply concat (for [x (range 5)] (if (even? x) [x x] [x])))
16:09	clojurebot	(0 0 1 2 2 3 4 4)
16:09	fhd	raek: I don't think that's it
16:09	raek	the problem being "replacing certain elements with one elements and other with two"
16:09	fhd	Simply put, I want to return _two_ values from (for
16:10	raek	fhd: then you simply have to pair them together in some sort of collection
16:10	raek	or do two separate fors
16:11	nishant	,(doc concat)
16:11	clojurebot	"([] [x] [x y] [x y & zs]); Returns a lazy seq representing the concatenation of the elements in the supplied colls."
16:12	raek	,(map (juxt inc dec) (range 10))
16:12	clojurebot	([1 -1] [2 0] [3 1] [4 2] [5 3] [6 4] [7 5] [8 6] [9 7] [10 8])
16:13	raek	fhd: what is your desired input and output? can you provide an example?
16:14	fhd_	Hm. So that means I'll have to add my elements wrapped in another vector, than somehow flatten the whole thing and make pairs out of every two elements?
16:16	dpritchett	argh
16:16	dpritchett	i took a few months off from clojure and now i can't think functionally anymore
16:17	dpritchett	given a list of lists how do i return the list with the largest second element? ((1 1) (2 10) (3 4)) should return (2 10)
16:18	dpritchett	i'll bet i could do it with reduce
16:18	mrBliss	,(apply (partial max-key second) '((1 1) (2 10) (3 4)))
16:18	clojurebot	(2 10)
16:19	fhd	Is it possible to somehow "flatten" a vector, i.e. turn [[[1 2]][3 4]] into [1 2 3 4]?
16:19	mrBliss	(doc flatten)
16:19	clojurebot	"([x]); Takes any nested combination of sequential things (lists, vectors, etc.) and returns their contents as a single, flat sequence. (flatten nil) returns nil."
16:19	fhd	oh
16:19	dpritchett	thanks
16:19	seancorfield	,(flatten [[[1 2]][3 4]])
16:19	clojurebot	(1 2 3 4)
16:19	seancorfield	note that it returns a seq, not a vector
16:20	ohpauleez	protocol experts, can someone inform me why I'm seeing a NullPointer when eval'ing this file http://github.com/ohpauleez/net-ns/blob/master/src/net_ns/server/atom_mapper.clj
16:20	seancorfield	,(apply vec (flatten [[[1 2 ]][3 4]]))
16:20	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (4) passed to: core$vec
16:20	seancorfield	hmm, i can never remember how to call vec :)
16:21	seancorfield	,(vec (flatten [[[1 2]][3 4]]))
16:21	clojurebot	[1 2 3 4]
16:21	LaPingvino	vec works on seqs
16:21	LaPingvino	more or less like str
16:21	fhd	I just realized that it's far more elegant if I use a regex instead of two patterns
16:22	seancorfield	,(str "Takes " "any" " number of" " strings")
16:22	fhd	Phew, I really didn't want to use the flatten solution :)
16:22	clojurebot	"Takes any number of strings"
16:25	raek	fhd: if you only want to flatten one level, you can use apply concat
16:28	fhd	raek: But is that really the best solution for adding two or more elements to a list using for? By adding a vector with two elements and then flatten the whole thing later?
16:30	raek	fhd: so you have a sequence of things, you produce a part of a sequence from each element and want those sequence to be made into one big sequence?
16:31	fhd	raek: Well, I'm producing a totally different sequence from another one. The sequence I produce has several entries per value of the original sequence.
16:31	plathrop	Is clojure.contrib.mock the best mock library out there? Trying to add unit tests to code that calls out to Java objects, and I don't want to create real Java objects.
16:32	rbanffy	technomancy: Thanks. I know it seems to be a bit awkward, but, since swank can do it by itself, there must be some way to teach it to use a different set of .jars
16:33	raek	fhd: then I would recommend (mapcat f coll), which is the same as (apply concat (map f coll)), or using (apply concat (for ...))
16:33	ubii	does anyone know, if the Clojure-conf presentations will be recorded and made available online?
16:33	fhd	raek: i.e. removing exactly one "layer"? I'll do that then
16:33	raek	fhd: but to answer your question, yes. I would add them to a vector and use concat
16:34	raek	also, concat is lazy
16:34	bmh	Any recommendations for a computational geometry lib? Java or Clojure
16:34	raek	as is for and map
16:35	fhd	raek: Wow, it works. Magical.
16:35	_rata_	how can I have multiple mutually-referencing objects in one atom?
16:36	ohpauleez	bmh: I would go with Clojure and call Java as needed
16:37	ohpauleez	bmh: What specifically are you doing?
16:37	ohpauleez	ohh, you're looking for a lib, my b
16:37	bmh	ohpauleez: That's the plan. 3d convex hull / delaunay triangulation on a sphere
16:38	ohpauleez	both those algos aren't bad to implement, but I'm digging around some code to see if I've used a library ever
16:40	ohpauleez	bmh: Typically in the past I've just called out to Mathematica and matlab as needed
16:40	bmh	ohpauleez: oh geez! Ouch
16:41	ohpauleez	yeah, I'm not coming up with much
16:41	ohpauleez	sorry bmh
16:41	bmh	I guess I can implement qhull
16:42	ohpauleez	yeah, it's pretty straight forward
16:42	bmh	even in 3d?
16:42	ohpauleez	if my memory serves me correctly
16:43	ohpauleez	My old lab just did it on the JVM and published, "On the use of Computational Geometry to Detect Software Faults at Runtime"
16:44	fhd	Wow, accomplished quite a lot today, thanks to you guys! Cya.
16:45	bhenry	what would a ring handler look like if i want a link to make the browser ask the user to download a *.xls
16:47	amalloy	bhenry: the header for that is Content-Disposition=attachment, as i recall. google that and you'll probly find the right answer
16:47	bhenry	yeah i just dead. do i just give my handler a :headers key?
16:47	bhenry	i just did*
16:48	amalloy	bhenry: probably. i don't actually use ring
16:48	raek	bhenry: include a {"Content-Disposition" "attachment; filename=foo.bar"} header
16:48	bhenry	raek: thanks.
16:49	bhenry	when i first started using ring i made a template that takes a context map, and i forgot that i already have a headers key in there.
16:50	raek	bhenry: also remember to set the Content-Type to the correct MIME type
16:51	bmh	ohpauleez: found one: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~lloyd/java/quickhull3d.html
16:52	ohpauleez	awesome!
16:53	raek	ohpauleez: I looked at your atom-mapper code, but I could find in the clojure docs that extend-type takes doc strings
16:55	ohpauleez	ahh, I didn't even think of that. Thanks raek . Let me try that out
16:56	mattrepl	is there a simple way to get the source path for where a namespace is defined on the class path?
16:58	ohpauleez	raek: That was it
17:01	raek	defprotocol takes docstrings though... (and is where (doc someprotocol-method) takes the docs from)
17:02	ohpauleez	I see that now, thanks!
17:03	raek	np :)
17:17	vIkSiT	wow, this place has grown in a month :)
17:26	bhenry	okay so query params come in as either a string or a vector. how can i idiomatically make a one item vector of the string when there is only one? i.e. (something string-or-vec) returns vector of string(s)
17:26	bhenry	do i have to do a conditional to check if it's a vector or string and act accordingly?
17:27	gfrlog	,(vector? [123])
17:27	clojurebot	true
17:27	gfrlog	,(string? "haha)
17:27	clojurebot	EOF while reading string
17:28	raek	are you talking about ring? in that case, when do you get query params as a vector?
17:28	gfrlog	,(string? "haha")
17:28	clojurebot	true
17:29	bhenry	if the same param is used twice like opt=1&opt=2
17:29	bhenry	opt comes in as ["1" "2"]
17:29	amalloy	,(let [x "x"] (or (vector? x) [x]))
17:29	clojurebot	["x"]
17:29	amalloy	oh that won't work :P
17:30	raek	ah, didn't know that ring.middleware.params/wrap-params could do that...
17:30	bhenry	raek i was surprised too, but i want to use it to my advantage
17:31	raek	,(letfn [(vectorize [x] (if (vector? x) x [x]))] [(vectorize 1) (vectorize [1 2])])
17:31	clojurebot	[[1] [1 2]]
17:31	gfrlog	,(doc letfn)
17:31	clojurebot	"([fnspecs & body]); Takes a vector of function specs and a body, and generates a set of bindings of functions to their names. All of the names are available in all of the definitions of the functions, as well as the body. fnspec ==> (fname [params] exprs) or (fname ([params] exprs)+)"
17:32	gfrlog	clojure documentation does _not_ talk down to you
17:32	raek	yes, it feels a bit odd that r.m.p/assoc-param need to check whether the param is a vector in order to add more elements, and that the user then needs to check whether it is a vector again in order to use it...
17:32	raek	:/
17:34	raek	maybe this would have been better if it was split into two different wrap-params middlewares
17:36	raek	to have an as simple as possible "data contract" (what the stuff that goes in and out of functions looks like), is essential in Clojure, IMHO
17:40	ohpauleez	~seen stuartsierra
17:40	clojurebot	stuartsierra was last seen parting #clojure, 212 minutes ago
17:46	gfrlog	,(format "%d hours, %d minutes" (quot 212 60) (rem 212 60))
17:46	clojurebot	"3 hours, 32 minutes"
18:06	ohpauleez	_fogus_: ping
18:07	raek	When speaking only in tautologies, you have to state facts, but also don't, or don't.
18:13	amalloy	,((juxt quot rem) 212 60) ; <== gfrlog
18:13	clojurebot	[3 32]
18:13	gfrlog	,(doc juxt)
18:13	clojurebot	"([f] [f g] [f g h] [f g h & fs]); Alpha - name subject to change. Takes a set of functions and returns a fn that is the juxtaposition of those fns. The returned fn takes a variable number of args, and returns a vector containing the result of applying each fn to the args (left-to-right). ((juxt a b c) x) => [(a x) (b x) (c x)]"
18:14	gfrlog	amalloy: awesome
18:14	gfrlog	there's no excuse for repetition
18:14	amalloy	juxt is a great trick. ever since i saw raek use it for the first time, i try to find juxt in every problem i solve :P
18:15	gfrlog	hmmmm
18:15	gfrlog	,((juxt juxt juxt) juxt juxt)
18:15	clojurebot	[#<core$juxt$fn__3657 clojure.core$juxt$fn__3657@d1ea84> #<core$juxt$fn__3657 clojure.core$juxt$fn__3657@17baeb1>]
18:15	amalloy	lol
18:15	gfrlog	solved that problem
18:15	amalloy	,((comp (juxt juxt juxt) juxt) juxt juxt)
18:16	clojurebot	[#<core$juxt$fn__3655 clojure.core$juxt$fn__3655@b56813> #<core$juxt$fn__3655 clojure.core$juxt$fn__3655@1c3c0fd>]
18:16	gfrlog	so much abstraction the poor JVM is going through and all we get are some hex codes
18:16	amalloy	a good lesson: everything is bits, eventually
18:16	raek	amalloy: :)
18:17	gfrlog	it'd be fun to have a program that takes a java object and creates a graph of the nested objects all the way down to primitives
18:17	gfrlog	I guess that's not necessarily acyclic though :(
18:17	raek	amalloy: (btw, what did I use juxt for that time?)
18:19	amalloy	raek: awww, i just looked at my logs and it was actually jkkramer; you told him how beautiful it was
18:19	amalloy	,(map (juxt first count) (partition-by identity [:a :a :a :b :b :c :d :d]))
18:19	clojurebot	([:a 3] [:b 2] [:c 1] [:d 2])
18:20	raek	ah, yes... that one is really neat
18:20	gfrlog	,(partition-by identity [:a :a :b :b :c :d :d])
18:20	clojurebot	((:a :a) (:b :b) (:c) (:d :d))
18:20	Derander	,(partition-by identity [:a :a :a :b :b :c :d :d])
18:20	clojurebot	((:a :a :a) (:b :b) (:c) (:d :d))
18:20	Derander	lol.
18:20	Derander	,(count (partition-by identity [:a :a :a :b :b :c :d :d]))
18:20	clojurebot	4
18:21	gfrlog	,(+ 4 12)
18:21	clojurebot	16
18:21	Derander	,(pow 4 12)
18:21	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: pow in this context
18:21	gfrlog	computers know the darndest things
18:21	gfrlog	,(#(% %) #(% %))
18:21	clojurebot	java.lang.StackOverflowError
18:22	Derander	okay, so guids collide sometimes. Why can't one prefix a guid with the originating computer's name to avoid collisions?
18:22	gfrlog	some uuid schemes use that
18:22	Derander	is there a downside?
18:22	gfrlog	security I think
18:22	gfrlog	at least for a general implementation
18:22	Derander	because someone knows where something comes from?
18:22	gfrlog	yeah
18:22	Derander	oh, I don't give a rats ass about that
18:23	gfrlog	then you're probably fine
18:23	Derander	just writing a sync engine between my desktop & laptop. okay.
18:23	Derander	thanks. I was wondering if I'd gone insane and was missing something
18:23	gfrlog	I doubt you have to worry about collisions though
18:23	Derander	gfrlog: "In the OSF-specified algorithm for generating new (V1) GUIDs, the user's network card MAC address is used as a base for the last group of GUID digits, which means, for example, that a document can be tracked back to the computer that created it. This privacy hole was used when locating the creator of the Melissa worm[2]. Most of the other digits are based on the time while generating the GUID."
18:24	Derander	sorry for wall of text, but apparently that is basically what is done already
18:24	gfrlog	that's on wiki? that's where I read it
18:24	Derander	mmhm
18:24	gfrlog	I thought it said there were newer versions though
18:24	amalloy	Derander: yes, but there are a lot of other GUID/UUID types than v1. as it happens v1 is back in vogue now that cassandra uses them, but for quite a while they were out of fashion
18:25	Derander	yeah, I've never read anything but hate about guids in general
18:25	amalloy	v3 and v5 especially, for some reason
18:25	Derander	when they seem like a decent solution to a common problem
18:25	gfrlog	we should namespace guids
18:26	amalloy	,(in-ns guids) ; this is gonna fail :(
18:26	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: guids in this context
18:26	amalloy	,(ns guids) ; this is gonna fail :(
18:26	clojurebot	nil
18:26	amalloy	really?
18:26	gfrlog	what's the guids ns?
18:27	amalloy	,(do (ns guids) ns)
18:27	clojurebot	#<Namespace guids>
18:27	amalloy	gfrlog: i dunno
18:27	amalloy	just made it up
18:27	amalloy	,(do (ns guiasfdsds) ns)
18:27	clojurebot	#<Namespace guiasfdsds>
18:27	gfrlog	that's the easiest way to write code ever
18:28	arrummzen	How do I test for inequality in clojure?
18:28	amalloy	,(not= 1 4)
18:28	clojurebot	true
18:28	arrummzen	=)
18:29	gfrlog	,(if (zero? (- 1 4)) true false)
18:29	clojurebot	false
18:29	gfrlog	whoops backwards
18:29	gfrlog	that one always trips me up
18:29	amalloy	,(not (zero? (- 1 4)))
18:29	clojurebot	true
18:30	amalloy	gfrlog: (if a true false) is a sin
18:30	gfrlog	lol
18:30	amalloy	,(boolean 'a)
18:30	clojurebot	true
18:30	gfrlog	I was about to ask if that exists
18:30	gfrlog	in other languages you can use !!
18:30	amalloy	<== always one step ahead
18:30	gfrlog	which is fun
18:31	amalloy	try it in java :P
18:32	gfrlog	oh gross
18:32	gfrlog	but here goes
18:32	amalloy	,(nth (iterate not 'a) 3)
18:32	clojurebot	false
18:32	gfrlog	!(ob==null \|\| ob == false)
18:32	amalloy	,(tale 5 (iterate not 'a))
18:32	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: tale in this context
18:32	amalloy	,(take 5 (iterate not 'a))
18:32	gfrlog	that probably wouldn't compile
18:32	clojurebot	(a false true false true)
18:33	gfrlog	lol
18:33	gfrlog	why doesn't clojure have an eval-java function?
18:33	amalloy	gfrlog: it would compile if obj were a Boolean, i think
18:34	gfrlog	yeah
18:34	amalloy	,(not (or (nil? Boolean/TRUE) (false? Boolean/TRUE)))
18:34	clojurebot	true
18:35	_ulises	evening folk
18:35	gfrlog	,(= Boolean/TRUE true)
18:35	clojurebot	true
18:35	amalloy	,(if (Boolean. "true") 1 2)
18:35	clojurebot	1
18:36	amalloy	,(if (Boolean. "false") 1 2)
18:36	clojurebot	1
18:37	gfrlog	(println "DENIED")
18:37	gfrlog	dang comma
18:37	Derander	,(println "DENIED")
18:37	clojurebot	DENIED
18:38	amalloy	,(or (def x 1) (println 'DENIED))
18:38	clojurebot	DENIED
18:38	gfrlog	omg did it work?
18:38	amalloy	lol no
18:38	bmh	What's the correct way to turn a primitive matrix (i.e. int[][]) into a clojure collection?
18:38	Derander	no one knows
18:38	gfrlog	:)
18:38	amalloy	,(seq (byte-array 10))
18:38	clojurebot	(0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0)
18:39	bmh	amalloy: wrong direction
18:39	bmh	oh
18:39	bmh	seq
18:39	gfrlog	,(short-array 10)
18:39	clojurebot	#<short[] [S@f51f3b>
18:39	amalloy	,(map seq (seq (make-array Integer/TYPE 3 3)))
18:39	clojurebot	((0 0 0) (0 0 0) (0 0 0))
18:39	gfrlog	primitives are fun
18:40	kmc	i asked this before, but don't recall an answer; sorry if i missed it or something
18:40	kmc	how lightweight are Clojure threads?
18:40	gfrlog	I think they are java threads
18:41	kmc	ok
18:41	kmc	how lightweight are Java threads? ;)
18:41	gfrlog	dunno :)
18:41	gfrlog	they're not erlang I don't think
18:41	amalloy	not very
18:41	kmc	ok
18:41	kmc	so i can't spawn 100,000 of them?
18:42	amalloy	bad idea; maybe possible
18:42	gfrlog	time for erlang!
18:42	kmc	or ghc haskell
18:42	kmc	new IO manager in GHC 7.0 too
18:42	amalloy	,(for [_ 10] (java.lang.Thread.))
18:42	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
18:43	amalloy	,(for [_ (range 10)] (java.lang.Thread.))
18:43	clojurebot	(#<Thread Thread[Thread-1979,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1980,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1981,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1982,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1983,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1984,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1985,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1986,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1987,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1988,5,main]>)
18:43	gfrlog	(conj todo-list "port clojure to erlang" "learn haskell")
18:43	raek	kmc: clojure uses java's executor framework for agents and futures
18:43	Derander	amalloy: is it slightly dangerous that we can spawn threads on clojurebot?
18:44	raek	kmc: which means that all actions sent to agents with 'send' is handler by a fixed-size thread pool
18:44	amalloy	yes; it's a possible security hole we found last night
18:44	Derander	fuuuuuuun
18:44	amalloy	,(for [_ (range 10)] (Thread.))
18:44	clojurebot	(#<Thread Thread[Thread-1990,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1991,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1992,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1993,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1994,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1995,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1996,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1997,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1998,5,main]> #<Thread Thread[Thread-1999,5,main]>)
18:44	kmc	cool raek
18:44	amalloy	oh. that didn't work before. i think raek blew up more of his security
18:45	gfrlog	,(Thread. (partial println "haha"))
18:45	clojurebot	#<Thread Thread[Thread-2001,5,main]>
18:45	kmc	when you call (Thread.) with no argument like that, what thread does it actually spawn?
18:45	_ulises	hey all, I have a bit of an odd request: I am looking for a mentor to improve my knowledge of Clojure and functional programming (amongst other things) so if anybody is interested/up to the task, please take a look at http://pastebin.com/rn4h8Tk1 and let me know your thoughts :)
18:45	Derander	(Thread.)
18:45	Derander	,(Thread.)
18:45	clojurebot	#<Thread Thread[Thread-2003,5,main]>
18:45	amalloy	threads don't do anything until you call .start
18:45	amalloy	so these threads, i think, just get GCed immediately
18:46	Derander	,(.start (Thread.))
18:46	clojurebot	nil
18:46	Derander	,(.start (Thread. (partial println "hi")))
18:46	clojurebot	nil
18:47	gfrlog	the println is apparently invisible either way
18:48	amalloy	background threads don't have access to the terminal
18:48	amalloy	iirc
18:48	raek	,(.start (Thread. (bound-fn [] (println "hi"))))
18:48	clojurebot	nil
18:48	raek	the out binding is thread-local
18:48	amalloy	,(doc bound-fn)
18:48	clojurebot	"([& fntail]); Returns a function defined by the given fntail, which will install the same bindings in effect as in the thread at the time bound-fn was called. This may be used to define a helper function which runs on a different thread, but needs the same bindings in place."
18:49	raek	that's why prints in other threads don't print in the slime repl in emacs
18:49	gfrlog	,(.start (Thread. (.println System/out "okay")))
18:49	clojurebot	nil
18:49	raek	new thread gets the root binding of out, which is System/out
18:49	gfrlog	,(.println System/out "then why don't they work?")
18:49	clojurebot	nil
18:50	amalloy	raek: but even in a repl println from a separate thread doesn't work
18:50	gfrlog	it gets blocked?
18:50	raek	,(let [out out] (.start (Thread. (binding [out out] (println "hi")))))
18:50	clojurebot	hi
18:50	amalloy	oh, nice
18:51	raek	you can also do (alter-var-root #'out (constantly out)) to set the root binding of out to the one in the current thread
18:51	gfrlog	raek: is your out special in clojurebot, or also System/out?
18:52	amalloy	,(let [out out] (.start (Thread. (binding [out out] (dotimes [n 10] (. java.lang.Thread sleep 5000) (println n))))))) ; does this timeout?
18:52	clojurebot	Execution Timed Out
18:52	raek	I don't know how clojurebot is implemented, but I believe out is bound to a fn that sends messages over IRC
18:52	raek	*bound to a writer
18:53	gfrlog	oh, I mistakenly inferred you wrote it from some previous comment I've forgotten
18:53	amalloy	raek: i don't think it can be that simple, or my println would write at least once
18:53	raek	I write bots, but not clojurebot :)
18:53	raek	clojurebot is hiredman's bot
18:54	amalloy	clojurebot: author?
18:54	clojurebot	Pardon?
18:54	amalloy	clojurebot: author is hiredman
18:54	clojurebot	Ack. Ack.
18:54	gfrlog	clojurebot: Pardon?
18:54	clojurebot	Huh?
18:54	gfrlog	clojurebot: Huh?
18:54	clojurebot	excusez-moi
18:54	rlb	Are there ways other than compile to make 1.2 startup much faster?
18:54	amalloy	clojurebot: source?
18:54	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
18:55	raek	anyway, println prints to whatever is in out. the default root binding of out is System/out wrapped in a PrintWriter.
18:55	amalloy	clojurebot: cake?
18:55	clojurebot	cheesecake is delicious.
18:55	amalloy	damn it. he won't remember when i tell him about cake
18:55	amalloy	rlb: try cake
18:57	raek	http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/blob/master/src/hiredman/sandbox.clj#L123
19:00	rlb	amalloy: thanks, I know it might also be possible to use something like nailgun, but in this case I'm interested in speeding up standalone executable time.
19:01	amalloy	rlb, you could start the jvm in -client mode, but that won't make a very big difference. java is not a fast-startup language, and clojure is another layer on top of it
19:01	gfrlog	irb starts pretty fast -- maybe implement clojure in ruby
19:06	rlb	amalloy: right, client doesn't really help. An empty java program runs in about 0.1s here, a compiled empty clojure program, about 0.9s, so about 9x slower, and pushing a notable threshold wrt command-line interactivity.
19:07	rlb	I was just trying to determine if it might be feasible to use clojure for some command-line tools that needed to be fairly fast.
19:07	gfrlog	is the Integer constructor the preferred way to convert string to int?
19:08	rlb	gfrlog: that's reasonable.
19:09	plathrop	,(contains? [:plathrop :foo :bar] :plathrop)
19:09	clojurebot	false
19:09	plathrop	What am I missing here about contains? I'd expect a true.
19:10	ohpauleez	plathrop: use some
19:10	plathrop	,(some [:plathrop :foo :bar] :plathrop)
19:10	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Keyword
19:10	ohpauleez	(some #{"a"} ["a" "b" "c"])
19:10	raek	plathrop: contains? checks for keys. in arrays, the indicies are the keys
19:10	ohpauleez	,(some #{"a"} ["a" "b" "c"])
19:10	clojurebot	"a"
19:10	ohpauleez	,(some #{"d"} ["a" "b" "c"])
19:10	clojurebot	nil
19:11	plathrop	raek: ah, thanks for the explanation
19:11	raek	plathrop: either use sets (if you check whether an element is there more that once) or 'some'
19:11	raek	,(contains? #{"a" "b" "c"} "a")
19:11	clojurebot	true
19:12	raek	sets have constant time* membership tests
19:12	plathrop	I think sets is what I want. Thanks folks!
19:13	raek	,[(#{"a" "b" "c"} "a") (#{"a" "b" "c"} "d")]
19:13	clojurebot	["a" nil]
19:13	raek	also, you can use the set as a predicate directly, unless nil can appear in the set
19:33	Derander	1.5 hours until weekend
19:33	Derander	I have never been more excited to get home and fire up emacs
19:33	amalloy	Derander: you need to get home to fire up emacs? they don't have ssh at your place of business?
19:33	Derander	oh, I'm working in emacs on a laptop
19:34	Derander	it's just that I'm not working on my own programs :-)
19:34	Derander	I'm @ work right now.
19:34	amalloy	well, just work on them secretly
19:34	Derander	there is a thought
19:34	amalloy	or while your actual work "compiles"
19:34	Derander	if only ruby compiled
19:35	amalloy	http://xkcd.com/303/
19:35	Derander	I only get to pull that excuse when I'm installing some library
19:35	Derander	that has c extensions
19:41	amalloy	Derander: you could recompile ruby. the latest version is much better
19:41	Derander	yeah, unfortunately I've already got 1.9.2 running :-(
19:53	bmh	is it possible to list two licenses in project.clj in a lein project?
19:59	maravillas	bmh: check out http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/sample.project.clj
19:59	maravillas	the comment above the :license entry says :licenses is supported
19:59	bmh	maravillas: I did see that, but it doesn't have a use case. If I specify more than one :name it will explode
20:02	amalloy	bmh: i'd guess it's like: :licenses [{:name foo} {:name bar}]
20:02	maravillas	did you try :licenses [{:name ...} {:name ...}] ?
20:02	bmh	that sounds like a reasonable thing to try
20:02	maravillas	looks like lein pom just concats :licenses, :licences, and the single :license entry
20:03	maravillas	single :license and :licence entries, that is
20:04	bmh	hooray
20:04	amalloy	maravillas: haha, so you don't need to use :licenses if you have two? you can use licenses and licences
20:04	amalloy	er. but without any Ss
20:05	maravillas	yeah, seems to be aware of both spellings :)
20:05	maravillas	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/util/maven.clj#L224
20:06	bmh	maravillas: very deferential to the Commonwealth, I suppose
20:08	technomancy	heh; nice. (that wasn't me)
20:10	maravillas	looks like michal marczyk
20:13	yayitswei	has anyone deployed a clojure webapp with nginx and can give me some pointers?
20:14	yayitswei	or if not that, a recommendation for the simplest way to deploy a web app
20:16	Raynes	yayitswei: In the simplest case, a simple proxy_pass will do the trick. I've had success with this: http://gist.github.com/629193
20:16	Raynes	I'd stick around and help more, but I've got to take off. Good luck. <3
20:16	yayitswei	thanks Raynes
20:19	jeff__	hi all. i'm looking for some advice. what would be the most idiomatic way of processing a very long list/array of numeric data returning a result. the result itself is a bunch of different calculations, some of which are scalars and others are themselves lists. what i'm doing for now is (reduce my-function initial-state) where initial-state is a map which gets new values assoc'ed in my-funtion as appropriate. is this a good way to do
20:19	jeff__	this?
20:19	clojurebot	this is not a bug
20:21	jeff__	actually, it's more like: (reduce my-function initial-state my-list-of-numeric-data)
20:40	_rata_	is there any problem to have a ref containing a vector of refs? (but the later aren't mutated)
20:45	quotemstr	Has anyone here worked with JUNG from Clojure? I want to write a program that manipulates a graph and makes a movie out of it, and Java has all the good libraries.
20:59	nollidj	at the slime repl, is there a way to break a running command and jump into a debugging mode?
21:00	nollidj	i am wishing i had something like the integration gdb has with emacs, so that i can step ahead, examine the local environment, go up and down the stack, etc, within a running program
21:01	nollidj	is there a way to get slime to do that?
21:03	bhenry	nollidj: http://hugoduncan.org/post/2010/swank_clojure_gets_a_break_with_the_local_environment.xhtml
21:04	quotemstr	Awesome!
21:04	quotemstr	#!/usr/bin/clj works as expected!
21:04	quotemstr	Is there a performance penalty for doing that?
21:05	nollidj	bhenry: thanks. it's encouraging that some work is being done, but blegh. i hope this makes it into swank-clojure
21:05	nollidj	so, is it true that atm there is no way within just emacs/slime/swank-clojure to set a breakpoint?
21:05	bhenry	it is.
21:06	bhenry	if you're using swank clojure you should be able to put (swank.core/break) somewhere in your code
21:06	nollidj	thanks for the info. i'll see what debug-repl can do
21:07	nollidj	ah, my problem is that somewhere in the program things just stall (cpu usage drops to 0%, memory allocation stops)
21:07	nollidj	ordinarily, i'd send it a signal while running it in a debugger and step it forward to see what's going on
21:07	nollidj	i will continue to sprinkle printlns or maybe some clojure.core/breaks
21:07	bhenry	oh i see. not sure how to go about that
21:07	nollidj	er, swank.core
21:07	nollidj	thanks for debug-repl, though
21:08	bhenry	the article is about how that functionality from debug-repl is now in swank-clojure
21:09	nollidj	oh, that is good
22:26	dpritchett	evening
22:27	mabes	hello
22:30	jsanda	can someone show me an example of using the map fn on a map. i'm struggling a bit with how to do this
22:32	dpritchett	C-c M-p is supposed to load the namespace under my cursor into slime, right?
22:32	mabes	,(map (fn [[k v]] [(str k) (inc v)]) {:foo 12 :bar 34})
22:32	clojurebot	([":foo" 13] [":bar" 35])
22:33	mabes	jsanda: ^ destructuring the k,v is what you need to do
22:33	jsanda	that's what i'm struggling with
22:33	jsanda	mabes: thx for the example
22:33	jsanda	that helps
22:33	mabes	and if you need it to be a map you can use into
22:33	mabes	,(into {} (map (fn [[k v]] [(str k) (inc v)]) {:foo 12 :bar 34}))
22:33	clojurebot	{":foo" 13, ":bar" 35}
22:37	Raynes	It might be cleaner to use for if you need to destructure something: (into {} (for [[k v] {:foo 12 :bar 34}] [(str k) (inc v)]))
22:38	mabes	yeah, good point
22:43	jsanda	Raynes: that does seem a bit more intuituve
22:43	jsanda	thx for both examples
23:09	cemerick	Raynes: how's life lately? :-)
23:09	Raynes	cemerick: Fantastic. The excitement continues to build.
23:10	cemerick	good, good
23:11	Raynes	Yours? :>
23:11	cemerick	Hectic. Ever so slightly unpleasant, but hopefully that's temporary.
23:29	bhenry	dpritchett: my slime repl using swank-clojure has the same highlighting as any of my clojure buffers. i didn't have to do anything special
23:29	bhenry	just used emacs starter kit and elpa
23:30	dpritchett	i dont have the starter kit
23:30	dpritchett	i guess i could nuke everything and start over
23:30	dpritchett	but i'll miss my toolbars
23:30	rdsr	,(partition 3 [1 2])
23:30	clojurebot	()
23:31	rdsr	isn't this behaviour a little wierd?
23:31	mabes	,(partition-all 3 [1 2])
23:31	clojurebot	((1 2))
23:31	rdsr	oops I'm using the wrong fn
23:31	rdsr	thnks mabes :)
23:31	mabes	rdsr: np, I knew exactly where you were going ;)
23:32	rdsr	hehe
23:32	_rata_	dpritchett, isn't it clojure-mode what you need?
23:33	dpritchett	clojure-mode doesn't work with the repl... bhenry seems to be right though
23:34	bhenry	dpritchett, there's got to be some hook out there
23:35	dpritchett	it's fine, i didnt' have much in my .emacs.d folder
23:35	dpritchett	so i'm rebuilding it
23:35	dpritchett	for the 3rd time today :)
23:35	technomancy	it's not in the starter kit
23:39	dpritchett	so technomancy do you have good highlighting in your swank repl?
23:39	technomancy	I do not
23:39	technomancy	thats' how I know it's not in the starter kit =)
23:39	dpritchett	man
23:40	bhenry	dpritchett: apparently i'm retarded. i just checked and i don't either. my bad.
23:40	technomancy	(add-hook 'slime-repl-mode-hook 'clojure-mode-font-lock-setup) ;; there's the trick
23:40	technomancy	makes the prompt non-highlighted though, which is too bad
23:40	technomancy	still nice
23:40	technomancy	I should put that in the readme
23:41	mabes	ahh, clojure-mode-font-lock-setup.. didn't think about that... I had only tried the major mode which didn't work out too well as you could imagine
23:41	dbleyl	hello
23:41	technomancy	would be more complicated if you still want to use slime with CL
23:41	dpritchett	clojure is my only slimy language at the moment
23:41	dpritchett	so i add that line to the end of init.el i guess?
23:41	technomancy	apparently there are still some greybeards who care about that; I'll let them come up with a form that works for it.
23:41	technomancy	ja
23:41	dpritchett	i just evaled it in my scratch buffer and nothing looks different
23:42	technomancy	you'd have to reconnect for it to take effect
23:43	Derander	it took me far too long to learn about c-m-x.
23:43	Derander	far too many keystrokes wasted moving to the end of the top level sexp and then c-x'ing
23:43	dbleyl	Is there any way to influence the compiled java output of :gen-class? Trying to interop with a Java lib that expects a run method to be discovered thru reflection.
23:46	bhenry	technomancy: with that line my emacs loads up fine but then when i connect to swank i get an error in process filter about the font-lock part
23:47	dpritchett	looking much better now thanks technomancy and bhenry
23:47	bhenry	okay so i guess it worked for dpritchett, so i'm wondering what i did wrong
23:48	dpritchett	well i have a fresh install of the starter kit for one :D
23:48	dpritchett	and then i added the line phil mentioned to ~/.emacs.d/init.el at the end
23:49	bhenry	i added to the end of my .emacs.d/bhenry/init.el so ...
23:49	bhenry	hmph
23:49	bhenry	i guess since my brain falsely remembered having syntax highlighting in the repl it wasn't much of an issue for me to begin with