#clojure – 2010-10-01

2010-10-01

00:00	hiredman	I started working on getting it easier to run but, uh, haven't gotten anywhere with it
00:01	hiredman	the way I run it is from a repl (require 'hiredman.clojurebot)
00:02	amalloy	heh, i meant a sarcasm highlight; getting clojurebot running is too ambitious for me
00:02	amalloy	i just want to learn how to play with him better
00:03	amalloy	so far i've found dispatchers. i can't be that far from finding out what commands he accepts
00:04	hiredman	the commands all live inside files in src/hiredman/clojurebot/
00:04	amalloy	yeah, i'm seeing that
00:04	hiredman	~scala 1+1
00:04	amalloy	slight bug at line 269 of core.clj, btw
00:04	amalloy	clojurebot: how much do you knot?
00:04	clojurebot	I know 638 things
00:05	hiredman	oh, hah
00:05	hiredman	well
00:07	amalloy	i'm not sure i get the regex at 270 either
00:07	amalloy	(5+10)
00:08	amalloy	clojurebot: (5+10)
00:08	clojurebot	excusez-moi
00:08	amalloy	anyway, thanks. i'll clone it and look around for add-dispatch-hook
00:09	amalloy	clojurebot: (5 + 10)
00:09	clojurebot	5 (for large values of 2)
00:25	TeXnomancy	hiredman: what kind of stuff did you get working in the subclassloader?
00:26	TeXnomancy	this is what I get testing clojure-http-client: http://p.hagelb.org/subclassloader-test-http.html
00:26	TeXnomancy	probably not a great test as it involves a lot of contrib stuff I guess
00:29	hiredman	just the lein tests I guess
00:30	TeXnomancy	I added in a (.printStackTrace t) in the catch in eval-in-project and now I get java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.test
00:31	hiredman	huh
00:31	TeXnomancy	also: is there a reason you set the bootclasspath of the subclassloader to the same value as the parent?
00:31	hiredman	maybe I should go back to the drawing board
00:31	TeXnomancy	seems like that could cause issues with clojure version mismatches
00:32	hiredman	uh, are you putting clojure on the bootclasspath?
00:32	TeXnomancy	yeah, to speed JVM boot
00:32	hiredman	it's because those are the classes used to boot the jvm, so presumably they are needed
00:33	cais2002	clojurebot: lunch time now
00:33	clojurebot	what time is it?
00:33	TeXnomancy	hiredman: oh... right; that's a quirk of Apple's repackaging of the JVM
00:33	hiredman	I would think that sax parser is in a jar somewhere on the bootclasspath
00:33	cais2002	clojurebot: lunch time
00:33	clojurebot	execution timeout is 10 seconds
00:34	cais2002	clojurebot: that's too short for most human
00:34	clojurebot	Titim gan éirí ort.
00:34	TeXnomancy	hiredman: actually the sax exception was what I got with some screwing around of my own; if I reset back to what you had then I get clojure.test not found in lein's tests as well as clojure-http-client
00:35	TeXnomancy	if I drop the bootclasspath I get the sax exception in http but not in lein
00:35	TeXnomancy	probably because of contrib usage in the former
00:35	TeXnomancy	so we probably want to set the bootclasspath to everything except clojure
00:37	TeXnomancy	hmm; didn't realize the bootclasspath was so heavily populated
00:38	TeXnomancy	I don't remember quite what the quirk was with OS X's bootclasspath, but there were some issues about aqua gui stuff failing somehow related to the bootclasspath
00:38	TeXnomancy	dan might remember
00:39	TeXnomancy	hiredman: also: what's with the pr-str/read-string roundtrip?
00:40	hiredman	java.lang.IllegalAccessError: class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor9 cannot access its superclass sun.reflect.MethodAccessorImpl (lancet.clj:118)
00:40	hiredman	fun
00:40	hiredman	TeXnomancy: because inside the classloader the classes for things that are not java.* should be "different"
00:41	TeXnomancy	gotcha
00:41	hiredman	putting in a require of clojure.test got rid of the classnotfoundexception
00:43	TeXnomancy	hiredman: oh duh... the old version uses clojure.main -i @clojure/test.clj
00:43	TeXnomancy	which obviously won't work here
00:43	hiredman	ah, well
00:47	TeXnomancy	bugger; because everything's wrapped in a binding we can't rely on the special-casing of top-level do where you can require and use a var in the same form =\
00:47	TeXnomancy	weak sauce special case
00:50	scottj	If you want some code to run only when your app is first started, not whenever you reload your code (interactive dev), is there a better way than (defvar run-on-start-only (do ....)) ?
00:50	hiredman	sun. may need to be added to list of classes allowed through
00:51	TeXnomancy	progress; getting java.lang.IllegalAccessError: class sun.reflect.GeneratedMethodAccessor10 cannot access its superclass sun.reflect.MethodAccessorImpl, compiling:(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
00:51	TeXnomancy	scottj: defonce is my weapon-of-choice for that
00:51	TeXnomancy	hiredman: pushed updated classloader branch
00:52	hiredman	expected: nil actual: java.lang.LinkageError: loader constraint violation: when resolving method "clojure.core$memoize$fn__4542.<init>(Lclojure/lang/IPersistentMap;Ljava/lang/Object;Ljava/la
00:52	hiredman	ng/Object;)V" the class loader (instance of java/net/URLClassLoader) of the current class, clojure/core$memoize, and the class loader (instance of <bootloader>) for resolved clas
00:52	hiredman	whoops
00:52	hiredman	ok
00:52	hiredman	will take a look
00:52	TeXnomancy	ended up taking advantage of the do trick by taking an optional init form for eval-in-project
00:53	TeXnomancy	"the do trick" being what Laurent described in the "Evaling forms that require" thread on the mailing list
00:53	TeXnomancy	which I am tempted to call "The Steve Gilardi problem" but will not. =)
00:55	hiredman	"The Gilardi Senario"
00:58	TeXnomancy	that's actually much better
01:00	hiredman	ugh, so what I think is happen is clojure's reflector is trying to reflect on a class via java's reflection, but java's reflection knows nothing about it because it's not visible
01:00	hiredman	happening
01:00	hiredman	that may nix the whole dog and pony show
01:01	TeXnomancy	not the ponies!
01:11	TeXnomancy	maybe I should start paying attention to what people are saying about osgi
01:12	TeXnomancy	but I can't really make head or tail of anything I've read about osgi... not even sure what it is.
01:12	TeXnomancy	kinda like asdf
01:12	duncanm	hmm
01:12	duncanm	la la la
01:13	duncanm	i'm looking into the combinatorics package, but i'm looking for a way to get all 'cycles' of a sequence
01:14	duncanm	like, [0 1 2 3] could be [0 1 2 3] [1 2 3 0] [2 3 0 1] [3 0 1 2]
01:14	TeXnomancy	when I read about OSGi it's kind of like the last panel of http://achewood.com/index.php?date=08022002
01:17	TeXnomancy	duncanm: worst possible way: (set (repeatedly 1000 #(shuffle [0 1 2 3])))
01:17	TeXnomancy	thanks, I'll be here all week
01:18	amalloy	,(let [list [0 1 2 3]] (map #(take 4 %) (take 4 (iterate #(drop 1) list))))
01:18	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: sandbox$eval8345$fn
01:18	amalloy	grr
01:19	amalloy	,(let [list [0 1 2 3]] (map #(take 4 %) (take 4 (iterate #(drop 1 %) (cycle list)))))
01:19	clojurebot	((0 1 2 3) (1 2 3 0) (2 3 0 1) (3 0 1 2))
01:19	duncanm	here's a way
01:19	duncanm	(defn all-cycles [s] (for [i (count s)] (take (count s) (drop i (cycle s)))))
01:20	TeXnomancy	mine's shorter
01:20	amalloy	hah
01:20	duncanm	amalloy: mine's similar to yours, but i think it's a bit simpler?
01:20	amalloy	duncanm: your way is better
01:21	amalloy	i always forget that (for) exists
01:21	TeXnomancy	you want (range s), not (count s)
01:21	duncanm	TeXnomancy: oh right
01:21	TeXnomancy	err--(range (count s))
01:22	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: for?
01:22	clojurebot	for is not a loop
01:22	amalloy	er what? i think he's assuming s is a seq
01:22	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: I thought for was underused.
01:22	clojurebot	No entiendo
01:22	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: your dumb
01:22	clojurebot	Excuse me?
01:22	amalloy	clojurebot: (5 + 8)
01:22	clojurebot	Pardon?
01:22	TeXnomancy	just kidding!
01:23	amalloy	aw man. he gave the best answer ever earlier
01:24	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: the best knock-knock joke is <reply>Oh, I know the best knock-knock joke! It goes like this... OK, you go first:
01:24	clojurebot	In Ordnung
01:38	ashleyw	Hi, can somebody help me with this please: http://pastie.org/1192755 I've tried to :exclude (spit) to no avail. What am I doing wrong?
01:40	ossareh	ashleyw: use require instead.
01:43	ashleyw	ossareh: thanks!
01:45	ossareh	:-3 )
02:01	lenw	morning all - just looking for some advice - need to persist stuff to a db and not entirely keen on doing all the low level sql - contrib sql style - is clj-record a good alternative or is there something better ?
02:04	ashleyw	Everything seems to be in order (as per the duck-streams api), but I'm getting an error on this: http://pastie.org/1192776
02:06	raek	ashleyw: for prefix lists, use parentheses
02:06	raek	you also need to use :use, if you want to use reader without namespace qualification
02:07	raek	since 1.2, much of the duck-streams features has been moved to clojure.java.io
02:07	raek	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/clojure.java.io-api.html
02:08	raek	:require only loads the lib, but do not "refer" it. (i.e. you still need to call the functions with the full namespace: clojure.contrib.duck-streams/reader)
02:10	raek	(ns server.core (:gen-class) (:use (clojure.contrib server-socket duck-streams)))
02:11	raek	also, there should be parenthesis around the use :use ... things
02:11	ashleyw	Okay, but see above to my question 30 mins ago, how do I refer to the lib without having that conflict error?
02:11	raek	you should only get a warning
02:12	raek	but the answer is: use clojure.java.io instead
02:12	raek	spit has moved into core, reader has moved into clojure.java.io
02:13	raek	but if you really want to use c.c.duck-streams, (:use (clojure.contrib server-socket [duck-streams :only [reader]])) is more ideomatic
02:14	ashleyw	or :only [reader writer]?
02:14	ashleyw	or :only (reader writer)
02:14	raek	exclude is used in the same way
02:15	raek	hrm, maybe the round parens are actually more ideomatic there
02:15	raek	both works, I think, but the latter is what clojure.org/libs uses
02:16	raek	so you should probably go for that
02:19	ashleyw	thanks, everything works now :D Also could you have a quick look at this please and tell me if I've got anything seriously wrong syntax-wise: http://pastie.org/1192791
02:20	ashleyw	(it's the first thing I've written totally on my own…)
02:36	raek	ashleyw: looks good :)
02:37	sandGorgon	ashleyw, I think apply should be changed to reduce to be more idiomatic. in this case + is a special case that can consume any number of arguments, so it doesnt matter. so (apply + (1 2 3 4 5)) is (+ 1 2 3 4 5). But if you had a function that could ONLY consume two arguments then reduce would give u the equivalent of (+(+(+ (+ 1 2)3)4)5)
02:37	raek	you might want to look at 'for' as a replacement for 'map' + anon fn
02:39	LauJensen	Good morning! :)
02:43	sandGorgon	.
02:44	lypanov	wazzzup LauJensen
02:46	ashleyw	raek + sandGorgon: thanks. Reduce definitely seems to be the better option as you said sandGorgon. :)
02:53	ashleyw	sandGorgon: so like this? http://pastie.org/1192824
02:59	LauJensen	Ah, Euler detected
02:59	LauJensen	ashleyw: That looks like proper use of reduce
03:00	LauJensen	(reduce + (filter #(or (zero? (mod % 5)) (zero? (mod % 3))) (range 10)))
03:01	LauJensen	I think something like is also worth considering, because it expresses the nature of the problem clearly, you have a list, you need a subset, then the sum
03:01	LauJensen	But its a matter of taste, both reads naturally
03:04	ashleyw	Cool. But what's happening with (mod % 5), where's it getting the % from?
03:05	LauJensen	#() takes an argument called %
03:05	LauJensen	Its just syntactic sugar
03:06	ashleyw	Ah...where can I find more info on #()?
03:06	LauJensen	#() = (fn [%] ())
03:07	ashleyw	That simple, huh, cool :)
03:19	hsaliak	hi , does anyone know if remvee's clj-android is still up to date and working? The reason I ask is that the github page still asks people to use the fork of clojure when 1.2 now works perfectly fine on eclair and froyo
03:36	AWizzArd	Moin moin
03:44	esj	allo
03:53	scottj	another month, another arch screenshot thread. included some clojure promo material in mine: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=834004#p834004
04:08	zmila	,(map #([%]) (range 3))
04:08	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (0) passed to: PersistentVector
04:09	zmila	,(map (fn [x] [x]) (range 3)
04:09	clojurebot	EOF while reading
04:09	zmila	,(map (fn [x] [x]) (range 3))
04:09	clojurebot	([0] [1] [2])
04:09	bartj	zmila, you are missing an argument
04:09	bartj	zmila, you can type faster than me :)
04:09	bartj	zmila, gah, I meant a paren
04:09	zmila	copy-pasting not typing :)
04:10	zmila	i wonder, why i can't use #([%]) in map
04:12	bartj	, (map #(conj [] %) (range 3))
04:12	clojurebot	([0] [1] [2])
04:12	scottj	bc (fn [x] [x]) != #([%]), it equals #(vector %)
04:14	AWizzArd	zmila: it gets translated from (map #([%]) (range 5)) into (map (fn [x] ([x])) (range 5))
04:14	AWizzArd	You try to call the function [%]
04:15	AWizzArd	Clojures vectors can be called, but this is a different issue, and not what you want.
04:15	AWizzArd	you want:
04:15	AWizzArd	,(map vector (range 5))
04:15	clojurebot	([0] [1] [2] [3] [4])
04:15	zmila	,(map #(vector %) (range 3))
04:15	clojurebot	([0] [1] [2])
04:16	zmila	oh, yes! even simpler ^)
04:16	AWizzArd	the #() is not needed, you can directly pass in the fn itself
04:16	zmila	i see
04:16	zmila	tĥ
04:16	zmila	thx
04:16	AWizzArd	,(map vector (range 5) [10 20 30 40])
04:16	clojurebot	([0 10] [1 20] [2 30] [3 40])
04:34	lypanov	whats the "richest" web thingy for clojure?
04:34	lypanov	i'm used to rails.
04:34	scottj	conjure
04:35	scottj	compojure/ring/moustache are more popular, but they're sinatra like
04:46	lypanov	scottj: know of anything mustache like?
04:47	lypanov	(for templating)
04:47	lypanov	ah
04:47	lypanov	ignore. enlive is better.
04:48	raek	enlive rocks.
04:48	bobo_	indeed
04:48	raek	Ring + Moustache + Enlive is my favourite combo
04:49	AWizzArd	So, you want to generate html?
04:49	lypanov	raek: thats what i'm looking at also
04:49	lypanov	raek: are there any tuts on that combo?
04:51	raek	well, there's this http://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial and the ones by LauJensen on http://www.bestinclass.dk/blog.html
04:51	raek	I like Moustache because it is easy to compose routes in an hierarchial way
04:53	raek	also, http://moustache.cgrand.net/syntax.html is neat
04:54	esj	yes, its very tidy indeed.
04:54	raek	it is a library with very clear boundaries
05:02	_na_ka_na_	,(get {(long 15} :found} 15)
05:02	clojurebot	Unmatched delimiter: }
05:03	_na_ka_na_	,(get {(long 15) :found} 15)
05:03	clojurebot	nil
05:03	_na_ka_na_	guys I'm confused by the map behavior
05:03	_na_ka_na_	see
05:03	_na_ka_na_	http://gist.github.com/605953
05:04	_na_ka_na_	somewhere in my code the key is getting converted to Long
05:04	_na_ka_na_	and if I try to find it i cant
05:05	_na_ka_na_	,(get {(long 15) :found} (long 15))
05:05	clojurebot	:found
05:05	_na_ka_na_	do i need to convert everything to long ?
05:06	_na_ka_na_	,(= 15 (long 15))
05:06	clojurebot	true
05:07	_na_ka_na_	,(get {(long 15) :found} 15)
05:07	clojurebot	nil
05:07	_na_ka_na_	anyone?
05:07	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
05:07	raek	the 1.3 branch is supposed to fix this problem, but I don't know what the best way to solve it in 1.2 is...
05:07	_na_ka_na_	is it a bug?
05:08	raek	there should be discussions about this in the google group
05:08	raek	well
05:08	raek	it is an unfortunate consequence of how things work currently, if I have understood things correctly
05:09	jlr	is this on the 1.3 snapshot?
05:09	jlr	oh raek's got it
05:09	_na_ka_na_	i'm sure this will lead to a lot of subtle bugs in 1.2 :(
05:09	_na_ka_na_	i mean people who use 1.2
05:10	raek	there used to be branches called num, equal and equiv. I think I heard that they got merged into 1.3
05:10	jlr	there's a good explanation about the behaviour, looking for it
05:11	jlr	http://dev.clojure.org/display/doc/Enhanced+Primitive+Support
05:14	raek	I think the new 1.3 behaviour will be to make numbers longs by default
05:16	cais2002	hi guys, is there an existing function that does this (split-by #(= 0 (mod %1 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6]) => ((1 2 4 5) (3 6))
05:16	jlr	_na_ka_na_: specifically re: maps look down in that link under heading "Objective - normalize arithmetic semantics between boxed and primitive numbers", it says hash maps and sets now use = for keys, and right above talks about the new behaviour (including "all long-or-smaller integers are boxed as long"
05:17	clojurebot	ant clean and rebuild contrib
05:18	mrBliss	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/separate #(zero? (mod %1 3)) [1 2 3 4 5 6])
05:18	clojurebot	[(3 6) (1 2 4 5)]
05:19	mrBliss	cais2002: ^^
05:19	cais2002	mrBliss: looks good, thanks
05:42	rrc7cz	one of the things I love about strictly typed languages like Haskell and Scala is the Maybe/Option type that forces callers to deal explicitly with nonexistance as a return value. Are there any tricks to enforce a similar caller constraint in Clojure?
05:45	rrc7cz	design by contract a la post conditions helps deal with protecting against nonexistance as a return value, but it doesn't enforce anything on the caller in cases where you want to return nil. The only thing I could think of was making my own Maybe type, then adding a type hint in my fn defs. Has anyone done anything like this?
05:46	mrBliss	rrc7cz: clojure has nice support for preconditions (but you probably knew this already) http://blog.fogus.me/2009/12/21/clojures-pre-and-post/
05:48	rrc7cz	mrBliss: yeah, I actually found out about them before they were in the documentation because I posted a Stackoverflow question about design by contract in Clojure. Finding out there was native support for it was awesome
05:49	rrc7cz	mrBliss: i'm actually a huge fan (and user) of DbC in Java and Clojure, but as I mentioned, this doesn't actually enforce callers to deal with nonexistence (nils) as return values; it only restricts the domain of valid function IO
05:51	mrBliss	rrc7cz: I think enforcing callers to deal with nils is quite problematic in a dynamic language.
05:53	raek	one common way is to return nil when given nil (if that makes sense for that function)
05:53	rrc7cz	mrBliss: on the other hand, so are NPEs. I think there needs to be a balance.. I can imagine a public API layer requiring more enforcement than perhaps internals, which might get away with pre/post to spot bugs
05:54	rrc7cz	raek: but how does that enforce the caller deal with nil return values instead of blowing up with an NPE?
05:54	raek	hrm, I see your point...
05:55	raek	(also, 'fnil' is an interesting function)
05:57	rrc7cz	raek: i didn't know about fnil. You're right, it does look very interesting.. thanks for the tip
05:57	raek	but it doesn't help with enforing constraints on the caller...
05:57	raek	which, as mrBliss said, probably isn't possible in Clojure
05:58	raek	but fnil is a cool way to "patch" a function that can't handle nils
05:58	rrc7cz	raek: well, I think it's possible, just not native. By that I mean I can make my own Maybe type, then type hint the return type of my fns as Maybe
05:58	AWizzArd	Since when is Java 6 Update 22 out?
06:00	rrc7cz	but how can you type hint a return value? it's easy on parameters, but I don't see in the docs how to do this on a return value. Perhaps it would be part of 1.3's ^:static stuff?
06:01	raek	I think I recall that it hasn't been possible before
06:01	raek	there was something about putting the metadata on the param vector
06:02	rrc7cz	raek: yeah, I don't see it listed as supported. I guess in that case you guys are right: there's no way to enforce the caller to handle nils
06:02	mrBliss	type hints don't enforce anything, except when used on static functions like you mentioned. (If I remember correctly)
06:02	raek	hrm, maybe that was for #"def(type\|record)"
06:23	quizme	when i do "lein deps" ring 2.0 gets installed. to install ring 3.0, would I have to upgrade leingingen? "lein upgrade" ?
06:25	mrBliss	quizme: change the version number of ring in your dependencies (project.clj file)
06:25	quizme	ohhh
06:25	quizme	kk
06:25	quizme	thanks
06:27	quizme	that's brilliant
06:58	cemerick	Raynes: double queen rooms are sorta standard :-)
07:03	esj	cemerick: coming to the US for the first that was really unexpected.
07:03	esj	"but I only need half of half of that !"
07:03	cemerick	esj: In general, we think along the lines of "How much space is there? OK, I'll use all of it!" ;-)
07:04	_na_ka_na_	what contrib jar do i use with clojure-1.3.0-alpha1 ?
07:04	cemerick	esj: coming to the US from....?
07:04	esj	and there is so much space to go around.
07:04	esj	cemerick: in my case the UK via SA.
07:04	rrc7cz	esj: I got you beat, I'm coming all the way from Prague ;-)
07:04	esj	bah, SA via the UK
07:05	esj	rrc7cz: South Africa ?
07:05	rrc7cz	Czech Republic
07:05	rrc7cz	esj: so I don't have you beat; I thought you were coming from UK
07:05	rrc7cz	SA would be much farther to fly
07:05	esj	rrc7cz: hehe.
07:05	rrc7cz	hell of a hike :-)
07:06	esj	it would be a lot of fun though
07:07	cemerick	I'll have to add nationality to the next State of Clojure survey
07:08	cemerick	_na_ka_na_: presumably there's a clojure-contrib-1.3.0-alpha1?
07:09	esj	cemerick: naaah - nationality is as outmoded as mutability :)
07:11	cemerick	esj: You, sir, are ahead of your time.
07:11	cemerick	And probably overly optimistic, but that's good. :-)
07:34	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: lein fails to download it
07:35	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: it fails with an exception trace
07:39	cemerick	_na_ka_na_: looks like there may not be an alpha-1 contrib: http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/contrib/complete/
07:39	cemerick	Try 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT, and see how you fare.
07:52	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: thanks for the tip, i'll try that .. I tried to build from master. . but it failed :(
07:53	_na_ka_na_	no even SNAPSHOT fails
07:54	cemerick	_na_ka_na_: can you paste your project.clj?
07:54	cemerick	along with the stack trace
07:54	_na_ka_na_	(defproject temp "" :dependencies [[org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0-alpha1"] [org.clojure/clojure-contrib "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]])
07:56	cemerick	[org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT"]
07:59	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: even that fails .. http://gist.github.com/606104
08:01	narkisr	Good morning (night etc..), is there a way to exit repl when using lein interactive?
08:01	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: I think this is working org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-alpha1"
08:01	narkisr	Iv tried C-D and C-C
08:01	narkisr	(System/exit 0) not working either
08:03	_na_ka_na_	cemerick: no, even org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-alpha1" fails
08:12	cemerick	oh, complete is a pom, not a jar
08:15	cemerick	That doesn't seem right at all.
08:18	abrenk	org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT" should work
08:19	abrenk	just browse http://build.clojure.org/snapshots/org/clojure/ and have a look what's there
08:28	abrenk	okay, the snapshot repo seems to have a defunct maven-metadata.xml
08:28	abrenk	it specifies build 42 as the most recent one but that isn't really there
08:30	abrenk	http://twitter.com/stuartsierra/status/25436736752
08:32	abrenk	specifying a classifier "bin" works
08:34	abrenk	[org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT" :classifier "bin"]
08:35	cemerick	Perhaps the notion of "complete" contrib should be dropped entirely. It's already large, and going to get larger.
08:35	AWizzArd	It would be great if the single jars could be offered in one big zip, in one folder.
08:35	AWizzArd	Currently that complete .zip includes all the jars, but in funny folders.
08:35	abrenk	should be okay if it's just a pom having dependencies on all the other, small libs
08:36	AWizzArd	I need a script to flatten that folder structure, so I can put clojure-contrib/* on my CP.
08:36	abrenk	AWizzArd: mvn dependency:copy-dependencies
08:36	AWizzArd	abrenk: what is the command for Ant? :)
08:36	AWizzArd	No Maven here.
08:37	abrenk	I feared so...
08:37	cemerick	AWizzArd: still no network either?
08:37	AWizzArd	I don't find it good to offer Contrib in a Maven-friendly .zip only. It would be helpful to have a basic version, just the plain .jar files.
08:37	abrenk	And I have to admit that to figure out how to get to the complete jar you'd have to know maven pretty good
08:37	cemerick	well, that could be made trivially simple
08:37	AWizzArd	Also Contrib should not be Ant or Ivy specific, or have a Leiningen specific format, or one for Gradle.
08:38	cemerick	I wouldn't doubt that it's complex to warn people off of wanting the full boat
08:38	cemerick	(which no one uses)
08:38	abrenk	is stuart still working to get the build right?
08:38	LauJensen	Zzzz, is the #maven? :)
08:39	abrenk	and is there like a google docs document listing all the needs and wishes?
08:39	AWizzArd	The full Contrib would be nice, as it can be CPed with a * placeholder
08:39	cemerick	He's the one who's on point last I knew, though the scope of the modularization is being explanded AFAIK.
08:39	abrenk	I understand all the complains about maven like the discussion yesterday...
08:40	abrenk	...but I think if everything would just be working fine for everyone there wouldn't be any complains
08:40	abrenk	I'd be willing to take a shot at the build process on my machine
08:40	cemerick	Things are in flux. 1.3.0 is decidedly not in a released state. Pain should be expected.
08:41	abrenk	if only to realise that indeed it's not fixable ;-)
08:42	AWizzArd	When starting my repl from an ant task it is okay to include all of Contrib in the CP, and also during compilation. Only during the jar stage I will specify exactly which jars to put into my Überjar.
08:47	abrenk	would be nice if these requirements and nice-to-have's were listed somewhere. I mean we have for osgi and nrepl etc. why not for the build-related stuff?
09:18	cemerick	the osgi notes are there because I saw a lot of people working on the problem alone
09:18	cemerick	the nrepl notes are there because that's a fundamentally political problem, not a technical one
09:19	cemerick	build processes are a tricky thing -- adding another cook to the kitchen makes things very difficult, if not impossible
09:19	cemerick	abrenk: ^^ If you'd like to help, I'd suggest offering it on the clojure-dev list, and see what SS says.
09:23	chouser	I just found myself thinking: "maybe the style of solution we've discussed for nrepl would work for build too"
09:24	cemerick	chouser: did you catch the upshot from last night's discussion?
09:24	chouser	"pom.xml is canonical, but a simplified tool could be used to build clojure and/or contrib for our needs without all the steps"
09:24	chouser	cemerick: ah, maybe not. will read.
09:24	chouser	"so if I could just understand maven well enough to see what parts could be reused, and which could be left out ..."
09:25	chouser	^^^somebody shoot me
09:25	cemerick	chouser: you're scaring the shit out of me this morning though :-)
09:25	LauJensen	chouser: who were you quoting?
09:25	chouser	LauJensen: my own crazy crazy thoughts
09:25	LauJensen	hehe
09:26	LauJensen	Had a good nights sleep? You dont quite seem yourself this morning
09:27	chouser	actually, I'm rather sick, though better than yesterday
09:27	stuartsierra	Maven is like theodicy. You try to take just a piece and eventually realize it's inescapable
09:27	cemerick	chouser: maven is definitionally modular. It doesn't know how to do a `clean` or even talk about dependencies without plugins for such things.
09:27	chouser	stuartsierra: like a prison
09:28	fogus_	more like the gulag
09:28	stuartsierra	but with more output
09:29	esj	"you can check-in any time you like, but you can NEVER build"
09:30	esj	oh dear, that was even worse that I thought :(
09:30	LauJensen	hehe, no it was funny :)
09:31	lpetit	"trying to make money with open source leads to legacy open source"
09:33	esj	lpetit: somebody tell facebook.
09:34	LauJensen	esj: face..what? ooh you mean that legacy app? :)
09:34	esj	only my granny uses THAT now
09:34	lpetit	?
09:35	lpetit	I escaped the facebook hype from the beginning. Am I a looser ?
09:35	lpetit	:)
09:35	LauJensen	lpetit: If you are, then we both are ... which is likely I guess :)
09:35	esj	lpetit: far from it.
09:40	cmiles74	I coded up a stomp parser, if anyone has a moment I'd really be thankful for any feedback on my implementation. :)
09:40	cmiles74	http://github.com/cmiles74/clj-stomp/blob/master/src/com/nervestaple/stomp/common.clj
09:42	chouser	cemerick: ok, read up on nrepl
09:42	stuartsierra	where is nrepl, by the way?
09:42	lpetit	nREPL on github
09:42	cemerick	stuartsierra: http://github.com/cemerick/nREPL, with notes linked at the bottom of the readme
09:43	stuartsierra	cool, thanks
09:43	LauJensen	cmiles74: That looks like an attempt at imperative programming in Clojure. If you ask me there are 15 excessive swap!s and some odd constructs like (if (not (and (not (and (....)))...
09:44	chouser	cemerick: do you want to allow for ides that have sent a partial expr (from the user's "repl" window) still be able to execute commands necessary for autocomplete and such?
09:44	stuartsierra	cemerick: It's a plain java.net.ServerSocket?
09:44	cemerick	stuartsierra: as of now, yes
09:44	stuartsierra	ok
09:45	cmiles74	LauJensen: This is the first parser I've codd in Clojure. I don't want to use regular expressions bumt still need to build up the frame components...
09:45	lpetit	cmiles74, LauJensen: there certainly is a smell , just by counting the nbr of ! / lines of code
09:45	cemerick	chouser: a tool that provides for autocomplete would presumably have code that searches available vars and matches against a partial string -- not simply sending partial expressions....?
09:46	cmiles74	The other thing I tried was emitting a sequence of characters and a symbol to denote what part of the frame it bleonged to, then assembling those. But in that case I loose the lazy rendering of the body.
09:46	LauJensen	cmiles74: You're using atoms to build lists, which is something we always try to do functionally, like (reduce conj '() [1 2 3]), where instead you do (reduce #(swap! some-global %) [] .....)
09:46	chouser	cemerick: yeah, I was afraid my description was too weak. ok, more words...
09:47	cemerick	chouser, stuartsierra: I'm currently working on a final decision re: stomp. I'm leaning towards pushing on that for now, at least until a clojure stomp client and broker are available in a quasi-stable state.
09:47	Raynes	Functions should never get that long.
09:47	Raynes	Ever.
09:47	chouser	would an IDE that supports autocomplete perhaps have some code on the server side (or perhaps send such code as needed) to look up available namespaces, vars, class methods, etc.?
09:48	LauJensen	Raynes: well, sometimes they should
09:48	chouser	sending something like (autocomple-options-for "split-")
09:48	Raynes	LauJensen: When?
09:48	chouser	and expecting a nice readable vector of strings in return
09:48	LauJensen	~source for
09:48	lpetit	LauJensen: hmmm, good idea for a heuristic for a warning in ccw : ratio of ! at the end of symbols per lines of code, and if threshold reach => publicity for conjlabs if user located in europe. Are you with me ? :)
09:48	cmiles74	Does anyone know of a recursive descent parser coded in Clojure that takes a different tactic?
09:48	LauJensen	~source doseq
09:48	LauJensen	Raynes: Just to mentioned a few examples coded by Rich himself
09:49	cemerick	chouser: yes; the thought is that there will be (a) some standard tooling helpers that would be available for all in a separate project, and (b) in general, tools will check for/load in whatever code they need for their functionality as soon as they connect to a new repl.
09:49	lpetit	chouse:r definitely
09:49	lpetit	chouser: ^^
09:49	LauJensen	lpetit: Thats a sweet idea - Could you do a little popup with a link to conj-labs.eu if you detect a code smell? :D
09:49	Raynes	The Clojure coding standards on the assembla wiki explicitly mention that you shouldn't write functions as long as doseq.
09:49	LauJensen	Raynes: Do you think Rich is ignorant of the standards?
09:49	chouser	cemerick, lpetit: ok, good.
09:49	chouser	so, then...
09:49	lpetit	LauJensen: yeah. Now let's talk financers :)
09:50	LauJensen	lpetit: cemerick will pay you once you get to the US, now implement!
09:50	cemerick	heh
09:50	Raynes	I'm sure he had a part in writing them. I don't remember there ever being a message sent out that doseq is a canonical example of a well-written macro that would be nice to see.
09:50	lpetit	ahah
09:50	stuartsierra	cmiles74: The JSON parser in contrib is an example of a recursive-descent parser in Clojure
09:50	chouser	is it likely such an IDE might also have a repl pane where user's input is sent line-at-a-time such that it can support interactive behavior like (println :got (read-line))
09:51	lpetit	but definitely, this could be seen as a feature. User assistance
09:51	LauJensen	Raynes: "Never" means "Not ever". Here's a case where Rich broke your rule, ie your rule is both broken and crushed.
09:51	Raynes	It isn't my rule, and that macro was written long before those standards were ever thought of.
09:51	LauJensen	Raynes: Just give it up, Rich has code-killed your argument
09:51	Raynes	I imagine that clojure.core is a little different.
09:51	cemerick	chouser: I'm also pondering my in/out approach. It's a tricky little bastard.
09:51	chouser	you can blame doseq on me. I something like doubled its size.
09:52	Raynes	You're a bad troll. :\
09:52	cemerick	I firmly believe (read) is a red herring.
09:52	LauJensen	cemerick: Whats a red herring?
09:52	chouser	hm
09:52	cemerick	If you're using nrepl, then you're using a tool.
09:52	cemerick	Thus, it can either check for a complete expression before sending, or require ctrl-enter or whatever to force a send.
09:53	cemerick	Either way, I feel like that's a UI issue.
09:53	chouser	cemerick: you think interactive use of in doesn't need to be supported
09:53	chouser	?
09:53	cemerick	I wouldn't go that far.
09:53	chouser	oh
09:53	cemerick	I think it's a 1% case that will end up complicating my implementation significantly.
09:53	cemerick	0.0001%, perhaps.
09:54	cemerick	I've yet to see any real code that (read)s from stdin that isn't a repl itself.
09:55	lpetit	cemerick: probably everybody which writes unix admin tools in java and likes to go for coffee everytime he launches one
09:55	lpetit	s/romm/room
09:55	chouser	LauJensen: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=wikipedia+red+herring
09:56	LauJensen	chouser: I've already googled it, but thanks for being a wannabe
09:56	lpetit	We french guys currently and definitely seem to have a problem with romm(s) (ahah)
09:56	lpetit	sorry
09:56	chouser	cemerick: (read) is one thing, (read-line) is something else.
09:56	cemerick	really?
09:56	LauJensen	chouser: and (read-lines) is something else entirely again
09:57	cemerick	(read-line) pulling from stdin screams "command line tool" to me, which is a non sequitur w.r.t. nREPL, no?
09:57	chouser	well, isn't that exactly the kind of thing cake is up to
09:58	chouser	[disclaimer: I have yet to use any of the tools nrepl is meant to replace.]
09:58	cemerick	Yeah -- which ninjudd and I have butted heads over already.
09:59	cemerick	This is all sorta moot, insofar as I'll (very, very reluctantly) support in anyway
09:59	stuartsierra	What would stdin mean in a remote context anyway?
10:00	chouser	in on the remote server would be connected to something like in on the client? why not?
10:00	cemerick	stuartsierra: binding in to a PipedReader that had content shoved into it from follow-on messages coming from the connected client.
10:00	chouser	what he said
10:00	stuartsierra	hm, ok
10:00	cemerick	Just the thought of it just screams "WRONG" to me, but…
10:01	Raynes	I'm so happy I never decided to write anything like that.
10:01	stuartsierra	Anybody had this problem with Ring: ...
10:02	stuartsierra	A handler throws an exception...
10:02	stuartsierra	Which gets caught by wrap-stacktrace...
10:02	stuartsierra	Which throws a NullPointerException...
10:02	stuartsierra	Which hides the original exception?
10:02	Raynes	I think I have.
10:02	stuartsierra	I'm trying to make a test case but failing so far.
10:02	Raynes	I don't remember how.
10:03	stuartsierra	One problem I know is that wrap-stacktrace only catches java.lang.Exception, not java.lang.Throwable
10:04	stuartsierra	But I think the NullPointerException is actually in clojure.stacktrace, and therefore my fault.
10:06	stuartsierra	clojure.stacktrace/print-trace-element applies a regex to the class name in a StackTraceElement
10:06	stuartsierra	Which will throw NullPointerException if the class name is null...
10:06	stuartsierra	Which is theoretically impossible, but I swear I've seen it happen.
10:09	cemerick	chouser: was it you that was talking with Rich about the difficulties of separating expressions-requiring-discrete-responses from random content on in?
10:10	chouser	cemerick: possibly, yeah.
10:10	LauJensen	stuartsierra: shouldnt that be a pre-condition of print-trace-element then, that the class is non null ?
10:11	chouser	I believe I was raising concerns and he was asserting it was possible.
10:11	stuartsierra	LauJensen: StackTraceElement claims the "class" field can never be null.
10:12	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Even still?
10:12	chouser	I wonder if anyone's done research on topic classification of english text with IRC-post-sized pieces.
10:12	stuartsierra	LauJensen: what do you mean?
10:12	chouser	I'd love to have auto-threading or topic grouping of IRC logs
10:12	cemerick	chouser: that sounds absolutely delicious
10:12	chouser	but intermingled conversations, non-sequitors, etc. strike me as overwhelmingly difficult to deal with.
10:13	stuartsierra	chouser: Yeah, what does "lol" refer to? :)
10:13	esj	chouser: ouch ! dejumbling the multiple concurrent conversations active at one time would be a nightmare !
10:13	LauJensen	stuartsierra: In practical terms it is already a pre-condition, just one you dont think will happen. If you add it as an explicit :pre condition, you'll have lost nothing but gained certainty next time (if) it breaks
10:13	stuartsierra	I think that will have to wait for strong A.I.
10:13	chouser	then again I wouldn't have guessed unsupervised part-of-speech tagging was possible at all, let alone in 300 line of Clojure.
10:13	cemerick	given timestamps and handle references, I'll bet a little bayesian training would go a long way
10:14	LauJensen	chouser: I know of one such system, but Im afraid its proprietary
10:14	chouser	stuartsierra: exactly. though, in that particular case it may not matter much.
10:14	stuartsierra	LauJensen: I can avoid the error just by calling `str`, but I'm trying to find a case where that field can be null as an example.
10:14	cemerick	LauJensen: Dude: http://aria42.com/blog/?p=48
10:15	cemerick	I get the sense that Aria's a beast -- and he's coming to UMass next year. :-)
10:15	esj	impressed: Gibbs samplers et al.
10:16	chouser	cemerick: so I guess if every message from the client has a unique id, the repl server can tag each return-value response with the input-message-id that triggered the eval
10:16	LauJensen	cemerick: wow, that'll take a while to consume
10:17	chouser	cemerick: that could be many-to-many if the client were undisciplined
10:21	LauJensen	Are the 1.3 snapshot artifacts ready to go with static functions?
10:24	stuartsierra	LauJensen: as far as I know, yes
10:24	LauJensen	kthx
10:26	cemerick	stuartsierra: You asked about serversocket earlier -- feel free to toss any protocol/transport comments over the wall.
10:27	stuartsierra	none yet
10:27	stuartsierra	I want to explore Netty and/or other NIO frameworks
10:27	stuartsierra	although you could probably drive the whole thing over a message queue library
10:28	cemerick	Yeah, that's been in the hopper :-)
10:29	cemerick	I need to wait on that front until there's a e.g. clojure stomp client and broker ready to use.
10:29	cemerick	That's one yak too far for me right now.
10:30	cemerick	When they appear (in a CA-suitable way), I'll move.
10:30	stuartsierra	Why STOMP in particular?
10:30	esj	cemerick: I've been playing today with Jim Duey's conduit.rabbitmq and its super easy.
10:30	cemerick	stuartsierra: AFAICT, it's the most widely-supported, in terms of clients.
10:30	LauJensen	esj: cemerick doesn't buy into 'easy', he wants 'big' and 'enterprise'
10:30	stuartsierra	ah
10:31	esj	you two boys !
10:31	cemerick	also simple enough to have a pure clojure impl
10:31	chouser	actually, the opposite in this case.
10:31	cemerick	LauJensen: bollocks
10:31	LauJensen	cemerick: sorry :\|
10:31	cemerick	esj: I need to keep the dependencies down in this context.
10:31	chouser	though rhickey didn't like my analogy
10:31	esj	cemerick: no worries, just thought it mention its awesomeness.
10:32	cemerick	Thanks for the tip; I'm thankfully not touching any MQs anymore these days aside from my abuse of couchdb. :-)
10:34	LauJensen	which contrib artifact goes with org.clojure/clojure "1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT" ?
10:36	LauJensen	oh... no single contrib artifact anymore
10:36	cemerick	chouser: where can I find this ansi terminal wonkery you have for coloring stuff?
10:37	stuartsierra	LauJensen: there's a "complete" jar but it doesn't work as a dependency yet
10:37	LauJensen	stuartsierra: any timeframe for when that will be up ?
10:38	stuartsierra	as soon as somebody figures out how to make it work ;)
10:38	cemerick	stuartsierra: Oh?
10:38	stuartsierra	cemerick: In the modularized contrib build, there's a "complete
10:38	stuartsierra	"complete" module that depends on every other module.
10:39	cemerick	right, but that's a pom
10:39	stuartsierra	But it doesn't work as a Maven/Leiningen dependency. Can't figure out why.
10:39	LauJensen	stuartsierra: I thought you were the go to guy ?
10:39	stuartsierra	LauJensen; I was and I failed utterly.
10:39	LauJensen	stuartsierra: ah ok. How about we restart and try accomplishing it with Cake instead?
10:39	stuartsierra	what's Cake?
10:40	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Its a new build system, a little similar to lein on the outside, but has a different task system and its now based on Ivy instead of Maven (almost)
10:40	LauJensen	Also supports a persistent JVM and its totally cross platform
10:40	stuartsierra	Hm. I'm suspicious of anything that deviates from the Maven model.
10:41	stuartsierra	But anyone is welcome to give it a shot.
10:41	stuartsierra	We might end up splitting contrib into separate repositories anyway.
10:41	LauJensen	hehe
10:42	AWizzArd	Ah, hi stuartsierra. I did not follow the discussion, but earlier today I mentioned that it would be great if there were a .zip of Contrib, that just contains all .jar files, in a flat folder.
10:43	AWizzArd	That would make it more friendly for other systems than Maven.
10:43	stuartsierra	yeah, that's doable in the current Maven setup, just needs implementing
10:43	AWizzArd	Currently when I download the .zip I need to run through a script that copies/moves out the jars into a folder that I can CP with the * placeholder.
10:44	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: when you say that Contrib might be split into separate repos, do you then mean "real repos" or just branches of the current one?
10:44	stuartsierra	real repos
10:44	hugod	It would also be nice to have a source jar for clojure, so slime could jump to java source from stack traces
10:45	stuartsierra	Just an idea; no planning yet.
10:45	LauJensen	You're suspecious of anything that deviates from the Maven model which has failed you so horribly?
10:45	stuartsierra	Yes. :)
10:45	stuartsierra	I love my abuser.
10:45	LauJensen	stuartsierra: Are you cemericks cousin or something? :)
10:45	stuartsierra	No, we're just both cantankerous north-east elitists. :)
10:46	LauJensen	hehe
10:46	AWizzArd	Btw, I noticed that most jars contain plain .clj files. I have no problem with that, I just wondered why it is not AOTed .class files.
10:46	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: binary-compatibility
10:46	cemerick	stuartsierra: I'd say we're pragmatists, but OK.
10:46	stuartsierra	heh
10:47	stuartsierra	AWizzArt; AOT-compiling means the JARs only work on the version of Clojure they wre compiled with.
10:48	stuartsierra	But seriously, Maven made the modularized contrib build possible. I wouldn't have attempted it with anything else.
10:48	stuartsierra	But it's still too big and unweildy, so I want to split it up further.
10:49	chouser	cemerick: http://gist.github.com/606301
10:50	AWizzArd	Is it that it depends on the version of Clojure, or is it even the concrete clojure.jar that makes the contrib jars incompatible when AOTed?
10:50	cemerick	yikes
10:50	LauJensen	AWizzArd: the concrete jar
10:51	AWizzArd	LauJensen: mama mia, that is indeed problematic then.
10:51	chouser	cemerick: too much \033 for you? :-)
10:51	AWizzArd	LauJensen: Do you know why that is so?
10:51	cemerick	chouser: INSANITY
10:51	stuartsierra	Not necessarily the concrete JAR, but anytime the Clojure compiler changes, it breaks AOT-compiled classes
10:51	chouser	cemerick: try it though -- it's pretty
10:51	LauJensen	Ah, Clojure is catching up: http://www.google.com/trends?q=python%2C+clojure&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
10:51	AWizzArd	ok
10:51	LauJensen	AWizzArd: No
10:51	stuartsierra	This was a big problem going from 1.0 to 1.1, but may still be a problem with newer releases.
10:52	chouser	LauJensen: "Python eats Australian family dog" "23-foot python found basking in sun" "Monty Python Reunion! Monty Python Reunion! Monty Python Reunion!"
10:52	stuartsierra	Uncompiled Clojure source code is more resilient to changes in the compiler.
10:52	LauJensen	chouser: I think you meant that for twitter :)
10:52	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: yes, that I understand
10:52	cemerick	chouser: I'm sure it is. I just prefer (.setStyleRange some-text-area-widget style-obj-to-make-text-red)
10:53	fogus_	http://www.google.com/trends?q=python+programming,+clojure&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0
10:53	AWizzArd	I just thought that even if just one tiny bit changed in the clojure.jar that AOTed contrib is incompatible then.
10:53	chouser	cemerick: heh, ok.
10:53	stuartsierra	AWizzArd: I don't think it's quite that bad.
10:53	AWizzArd	good :)
10:53	chouser	I have a version with prettier source code -- sets some constants so I can do like #(println RED % NORMAL)
10:54	cemerick	chouser: Are there many like you? (i.e. people that use cmd line repls semi-exclusively)
10:54	AWizzArd	stuartsierra: btw, do you know a bit about Clojures DynamicClassLoader?
10:54	stuartsierra	a very little bit
10:54	chouser	...but it's part of a larger thing for work, so shouldn't share
10:54	AWizzArd	ok
10:55	cemerick	ahem http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=scala%2Cclojure%2Cpython&l=
10:55	AWizzArd	Because there is potentially an implication for using Clojure to program Applets or Web Start Apps when Contrib contains .clj files.
10:55	cemerick	buzz is a leading indicator, but nothing real on its own
10:55	chouser	cemerick: beats me. I wonder if it would work with emacs inferior mode or whatever that's called.
10:56	LauJensen	Which lein-swank artifact goes with clojure-1.3 ?
10:57	chouser	cemerick: if there are others like me, they probably keep quiet to avoid ridicule.
10:57	cemerick	chouser: Would it make sense for me to make nrepl's main emit such codes on any unix?
10:57	cemerick	screw it, fly that flag
10:58	chouser	cemerick: most commands that can generate ansi color codes only do so optionally, so that would probably be best.
10:58	AWizzArd	~max people
10:58	clojurebot	max people is 313
10:58	chouser	does anyone know how many people have registered for clojure-conj so far?
10:59	cemerick	chouser: lots
10:59	chouser	stuartsierra: you're our mole in corporate HQ, right? Heard anything?
10:59	chouser	cemerick: excellent. :-)
11:00	stuarthalloway	155
11:00	stuartsierra	And I'm not physically in corporate HQ most of the time, so I don't have the latest gossip.
11:00	stuarthalloway	stuartsierra: it's on the f**ing radiator :-)
11:00	cemerick	oh, and I thought the number was hush-hush for some reason
11:00	stuartsierra	stuarthalloway: whatever ... ;)
11:00	stuartsierra	so did I
11:00	cemerick	Now I have one less reason to bug stuartsierra :-P
11:01	stuarthalloway	I just asked big boss Alan if it was a secret and he said no
11:01	cemerick	stuartsierra: are you still in NYC?
11:01	stuartsierra	yes
11:01	chouser	gonna be fun
11:01	cemerick	I had no idea -- thought you had moved.
11:01	cemerick	stuartsierra: I would have rung you up two weeks ago had I known.
11:02	cemerick	chouser: you'll make it for more than one day? ;-)
11:02	chouser	already been there once in a dream, but there were only about a dozen people. rhickey gave me stern advice, peering over spectacles.
11:02	cemerick	and here I had wagered 265
11:02	cemerick	This is why I don't bet on games or horses.
11:03	LauJensen	chouser: "peering over spectacles" ?
11:03	chouser	cemerick: oh yeah, I'm all over this one.
11:03	cemerick	Excellent.
11:03	cemerick	(said in proper Burnsian affect)
11:03	cemerick	with*
11:04	cemerick	LauJensen: it's his default position: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/2613013337_ecc41f4123_o.jpg
11:04	cemerick	:-D
11:04	chouser	heh, yeah, something like that.
11:06	stuartsierra	stuarthalloway: Just added a bug on clojure-dev
11:07	abrenk	stuartsierra: doesn't [org.clojure.contrib/complete "1.3.0-SNAPSHOT" :classifier "bin"] work as a lein dependency for the "complete" artifact
11:07	stuartsierra	not correctly
11:07	stuartsierra	It downloads all the individual module JARs and the "complete" uberjar.
11:07	abrenk	stuartsierra: as I said earlier: I'd be willing to give it a try to fix the maven build
11:08	stuartsierra	go for it
11:08	abrenk	is there a list of requirements?
11:08	stuartsierra	make it work :)
11:08	stuartsierra	well, ok...
11:08	LauJensen	cemerick: ah, thanks for clearing that up :)
11:08	stuartsierra	- must be able to build/deploy all modules with 1 command
11:09	abrenk	okay, I'll just have a go at it and flex my maven muscles and maybe write some stuff down while at it
11:09	stuartsierra	- must be able to depend on a single module to get all of contrib
11:09	stuartsierra	- should build a complete uberjar for non-maven-aware environments
11:09	stuartsierra	point 2 is currently the problem
11:10	abrenk	Thanks. I'll take a look at it.
11:11	cemerick	stuartsierra: did you try shade?
11:11	stuartsierra	cemerick: no, not yet
11:11	cemerick	that's what will get you point 2 cleanly
11:12	cemerick	i.e. without carrying along the submodule dependencies themselves for downstream projects
11:13	stuartsierra	hm.
11:13	abrenk	stuartsierra: at the moment a classifier=bin dependency only pulls down the single "complete" jar
11:14	stuartsierra	What I hoped was that depending on a module with <packaging>pom</packaging> would get you all of its transitive deps without trying to download its jar.
11:14	cemerick	nope
11:14	cemerick	pom artifacts can only ever be parents
11:14	stuartsierra	oh. Wish I'd known that.
11:14	cemerick	or, they can be dependencies, but that's a no-op
11:14	cemerick	(effectively)
11:14	abrenk	but looking at the snapshot repo it seems wrong that build 41 is just a pom and build 42 is just a jar.
11:18	stuartsierra	abrenk: I made a lot of mistakes, flailing aroudn trying to get 1.3.0-alpha1 out the door.
11:19	slyrus_	fogus_: the lisp interpreter aside, the html layout on lithp is brilliant
11:20	fogus_	slyrus_: It's not mine. It's generated by a tool named Pycco
11:20	slyrus_	ah, ok. still, it makes me want that for all of my code.
11:22	fogus_	slyrus_: Indeed
11:23	abrenk	stuartsierra: the build is started by hudson? what's the mvn command line that is run?
11:24	stuartsierra	abrenk: mvn --fail-at-end clean install
11:24	abrenk	thanks
11:25	stuartsierra	stuarthalloway: BTW something broke clojure.contrib.jmx at Clojure commit cc8372f12074b4cccbdd9cde3cfacfae069c57d3
11:26	stuartsierra	http://build.clojure.org/job/clojure-contrib/218/org.clojure.contrib$jmx/console
11:26	AWizzArd	A nice read: http://norvig.com/lispy.html
11:33	cemerick	chouser: a decent half-feature would be for the logs to add a class attr to every <p> containing the handle's name, with a filter input field fixed at the bottom of the page.
11:33	chouser	cemerick: so as to see posts only from one user?
11:33	cemerick	~3 lines of jquery, sorta-kinda threading
11:33	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
11:34	cemerick	or many, e.g. "cemerick,chouser,rhickey,ninjudd" in my case right now
11:34	chouser	oh, I see. hmm.
11:34	cemerick	filter + reset buttons. It'd be shiny
11:35	cemerick	Extra credit for finding the closest matching msg on-screen at the time of the filter, and scrolling to that line after hiding the non-matching msgs.
11:36	chouser	I'm planning on getting rid of the up/down arrows. I think that's a failed featuer.
11:36	chouser	featuer.
11:36	chouser	feature
11:37	cemerick	They seem to do random things :-)
11:37	chouser	:-P yeah
11:37	cemerick	chouser: It'd be great if spaces in msgs were turned into nbsp's as well.
11:37	chouser	nooo
11:37	cemerick	heh
11:37	cemerick	already down that path?
11:38	chouser	you want each post to be just one line?
11:38	cemerick	chouser: OK, what I mean is, any space in a block of more than one space replaced with nbsp
11:39	cemerick	e.g. this was an outline: http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2010-09-30.html#19:45e
11:39	chouser	oh, to maintain multi-space spacing. yeah, I should try to do that.
11:40	cemerick	I simply don't see how in and commands can be delineated from a single stream.
11:41	abrenk	technomancy: is it possible to specify a dependency of <type>pom</type> (in pom.xml) in project.clj?
11:42	lpetit	cemerick: right. Or would have to find a special char eg in the unicode charset, etc., but that's horrible
11:43	cemerick	lpetit: Rich was saying it's possible yesterday, but I don't see it.
11:43	lpetit	cemerick: Rich is like Socrates ...
11:44	cemerick	a tool committed to being synchronous could just start sending on in after each send of code
11:44	cemerick	But I think he was implying something more transparent than that.
11:45	lpetit	why were you placing this on the table again, btw ?
11:45	cemerick	I'd like to support it as long as it doesn't impinge upon any of the other priorities.
11:46	cemerick	I think cake could do exactly what I just mentioned
11:46	cemerick	ninjudd: ping?
11:49	lpetit	ok
11:49	Bahman	Hi all!
11:49	lpetit	wasn't it one of, hum hum, earlier suggestions ? ;-)
11:50	cemerick	lpetit: it, what?
11:50	lpetit	nevermind
11:51	lpetit	aborted auto-satisfaction tentative
11:53	abrenk	stuartsierra: how/when's the assembly plugin called?
11:53	stuartsierra	abrenk: I think I deleted that; it's in older commits in the "complete" pom
11:53	abrenk	stuartsierra: ah, okay
12:02	ninjudd	cemerick: yo
12:02	lpetit	ninjudd: hello!
12:03	ninjudd	cemerick: what's up? (reading the logs now)
12:03	ninjudd	lpetit: hi
12:03	lpetit	ninjudd: I hadn't understood you're the one behind cake. Great work !
12:03	ninjudd	lpetit: oh. well thanks
12:03	ninjudd	hehe. hum hum is right
12:03	lpetit	ninjudd: when do you drop the ruby dependency ? :)
12:04	ninjudd	cemerick: i mentioned that exact idea to rich, but he didn't seem to much like it
12:05	ninjudd	lpetit: well, i need some fast client script. it's either ruby or perl, and my ruby is much less rusty
12:05	cemerick	ninjudd: If I'm thinking of the same exchange, you were talking about timing though, right?
12:06	chouser	ninjudd: someday we'll get you some fast-startup clojure runtime, ok? You can port the client to that then.
12:06	cemerick	the clojure->scheme->C idea came up a few night ago again
12:06	chouser	cemerick: yes
12:07	chouser	oh, I misread. "good"
12:07	lpetit	ninjudd: once you have a running background jvm, couldn't the cake binary just be a lightweight wrapper in shell(unix)/bat(windows) to talk to the background jvm ? (maybe I'm saying nonsense)
12:07	ninjudd	cemerick: only in the context of solving the multi form paste problem. the main debate was about whether to have separate command and in streams
12:07	cemerick	ninjudd: and your position is?
12:08	cemerick	(waaaay too many logs to scan over here)
12:08	ninjudd	that you need separate streams and that it is possible
12:08	LauJensen	ninjudd: lpetit: No whining about the Ruby code, it works wonders
12:09	lpetit	LauJensen: well, harder to leverage from third party tool such as ccw, he ?
12:09	cemerick	ninjudd: to pair send code requests with corresponding segments of in?
12:09	ninjudd	lpetit: it could, but i'd prefer to write it once in ruby than twice in bash and bat. ruby is more platform independent than either of those, obviously
12:09	LauJensen	lpetit: use Emacs
12:09	lpetit	violons ...
12:09	cemerick	LauJensen: sorta like asking RMS to use Eclipse, no?
12:09	lpetit	LauJensen: no thanks, I'm not stuck in the 20ies :-p
12:10	LauJensen	cemerick: sorta, but that way around it would be silly, no ? :)
12:10	ninjudd	cemerick: i was thinking that they don't need to be paired, but they could by clearing in after every command i suppose
12:10	ninjudd	cemerick, chouser: did you see that i added stream support to clj-stomp?
12:10	cemerick	yes
12:11	chouser	ninjudd: hm, I didn't.
12:11	lpetit	ninjudd: Oh you too have written a stomp port !
12:11	cemerick	ninjudd: you need to fix your (.read in buf 0 len) call -- you won't always fill that buffer in one call
12:12	ninjudd	cemerick: what a nightmare it was to get buffering correct. took my a few hours to figure out that the default implementation of read(buf,offset,len) in InputStream reads everything until EOF
12:12	TeXnomancy	abrenk: I think :type "pom" in the dependency vector does it
12:13	ninjudd	cemerick: you aren't supposed to fill the entire buffer if the data isn't available yet
12:13	abrenk	TeXnomancy: thanks, I'll try that.
12:13	TeXnomancy	may be new in 1.4.0-snpashot
12:13	abrenk	it's at least not in sample.project.clj
12:14	LauJensen	Enjoy the weekend everybody
12:14	TeXnomancy	abrenk: right, because it hasn't been released yet
12:14	lpetit	LauJensen: you too, bye
12:14	ninjudd	cemerick: the only case i can think of where that is correct is non-interactive input (i.e. files)
12:14	cemerick	ninjudd: I'm confused: you need to fill that buffer in read-body, no?
12:15	ninjudd	cemerick: no
12:15	cemerick	all right nm
12:15	cemerick	at least right now
12:15	duncanm	la la la
12:15	lpetit	starsky & hutch ?
12:15	ninjudd	cemerick: http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/io/BufferedInputStream.html#read(byte[],%20int,%20int)
12:16	ninjudd	cemerick: Buffered input stream returns less than the requested number of bytes if the underlying stream does not have them available, but it always returns at least 1 byte and no more than len
12:17	cemerick	ninjudd: right, what I'm saying is, if a message comes along that's large, it won't all be available in one read
12:18	ninjudd	i read all available bytes unless the len passed is shorter than that
12:19	cemerick	but you need to read length bytes, not all available bytes
12:19	ninjudd	read is allowed to return less than len bytes
12:20	ninjudd	Reads up to len bytes of data from the input stream into an array of bytes. An attempt is made to read as many as len bytes, but a smaller number may be read, possibly zero. The number of bytes actually read is returned as an integer.
12:21	cemerick	ninjudd: I understand the spec. The underlying stream may block before you've read as many bytes as specified in the frame's headers.
12:22	ninjudd	cemerick: you mean the socket?
12:22	cemerick	or the inputstream from whatever transport is being used, yes
12:23	ninjudd	cemerick: i see. you're saying that i shouldn't read the whole frame at once
12:23	cemerick	not at the moment, no
12:24	cemerick	I'm saying this is not always going to be true: (== (.read in buffer 0 length) length)
12:25	ninjudd	cemerick: oh. we're talking about two different things.. haha
12:25	cemerick	read-body, http://github.com/ninjudd/clj-stomp/blob/master/src/stomp.clj#L58
12:25	ninjudd	cemerick: i was talking about my implementation of .read in stomp/streams.clj
12:26	cemerick	oh
12:26	cemerick	no
12:26	ninjudd	cemerick: sorry. my fault. still too early for me
12:26	cemerick	read-body, dammit, read-body! :-D
12:27	ninjudd	ii thought: "cemerick must be crazy calling input-read read-body, but i won't say anything..."
12:28	ninjudd	cemerick: got it. i think that explains why hornetq seems to hang sometimes. thanks!
12:28	cemerick	ninjudd: too perfect :-)
12:29	ninjudd	i was worried that hornetq was just buggy, but i hoped it was something in my code
12:29	cemerick	Bugs are never in others' code, only ever in one's own.
12:30	cemerick	Except when they're not, and then you're screwed.
12:30	ninjudd	true. especially when your code is 3 days old and their code has been around for quite a while
12:31	cemerick	ninjudd: but while we're on the topic, returning a lazy seq of chars in body would be ideal (what I think cmiles74 is aiming for).
12:31	ninjudd	cemerick: i bet this is responsible for stompserver and CoilMQ not working too. seems that they only worked if i set ack:client
12:32	cemerick	ninjudd: do you have a CA lodged?
12:32	ninjudd	yeah, i sent cmiles74 a message to see if he'd like to combine our efforts and tackle a pure-clojure broker too
12:32	ninjudd	cemerick: yes
12:32	cemerick	good on both points
12:34	ninjudd	cemerick: how would i make it a lazy-seq of characters? it seems that receiving the next frame before the lazy-seq is realized will break things
12:37	cemerick	ninjudd: change (receive-frame s) to (locking s (receive-frame s))
12:38	ninjudd	cemerick: oh, nice
12:39	cemerick	though send- and receive-frame should be taking inputstreams or readers, not the socket
12:39	cemerick	for transport independence
12:40	ninjudd	cemerick: right, i just noticed i need to change that to make it a lazy seq anyway
12:41	ninjudd	cemerick: i have to run now, but i'll check in these fixes in a few hours. thanks for the help!
12:41	cemerick	sure
12:41	cemerick	ninjudd: FYI, I'm pushing ahead for now with my sockets; once a stable 1.1-ready client and broker are available, I'll switch over.
12:41	cemerick	hopefully you and cmiles74 and whoever else can beat it down
12:42	ninjudd	cemerick: i was just going to ask if you are still stuck on the 1.1 bit
12:42	cemerick	I'm not personally, but I think it's unavoidable.
12:43	ninjudd	cemerick: i think i can write it so that the majority of the code is the same for a protocol and non-protocol version
12:43	cemerick	Definitely a drag, but them's the breaks for a little while, anyway.
12:43	cemerick	Yeah, I wouldn't expect it to be too painful.
12:43	ninjudd	since the heavy lifting is in send-frame and receive-frame
12:43	cemerick	ninjudd: all contributors need to be CA-settled FYI
12:44	cemerick	there should be a "get your CA done now" table at the conj
12:44	ninjudd	cemerick: ok, do you know if cmiles74 is? should i get a separate CA from contributors? or does the clojure one apply?
12:44	cemerick	ninjudd: nrepl will be going into contrib, so the usual one applies
12:45	cemerick	I don't know if cmiles74 is yet, I'll bother him later :-)
12:45	ninjudd	cemerick: ok
12:45	ninjudd	be back in an hour or so
12:53	Raynes	cemerick: I was talking about 1.1 yesterday. I didn't realize it was still in widespread use.
12:53	Raynes	I haven't seen many projects still using it.
12:53	cemerick	most clojure projects aren't open source
12:54	cemerick	as long as stu's book is selling well, tools will need to support 1.1
12:54	cemerick	or, tools that want to maximize their usage, I guess
12:54	Raynes	Stu's book was aimed at 1.0 AFAIK.
12:57	Raynes	We are talking about SH, right? Not SS.
12:58	Raynes	D'oh well. Good thing I don't have important projects. I don't thing I've got any code that I still work with that isn't on 1.2 now.
12:58	Raynes	:p
12:59	cemerick	Raynes: I think you might be right
13:02	cemerick	In any case, not having futures or promises is a dealbreaker for nrepl
13:02	cemerick	dnolen: there's a big difference between the closed-source guys that are active in the community and those that aren't
13:03	cemerick	There are plenty of people still using 1.1, and they've never been in channel or on the google group.
13:03	cemerick	or, posted to the gg, that is
13:03	dnolen	cemerick: but are there a ton of closed-source guys that aren't active in the community? I'm honestly curious. Don't those people need support?
13:04	cemerick	apparently not
13:05	cemerick	good thing too -- if you had to be as engaged as we were to use clojure effectively....
13:05	cemerick	we'd be like CL :-P
13:06	dnolen	interesting, the Invisible Clojurians
13:06	cemerick	I mean, there's what, 3500 people on the gg?
13:06	dnolen	4200+
13:07	cemerick	whatever -- that's surely not the entire userbase
13:07	cemerick	or even the majority of it, I'd wager
13:07	ninjudd	i tend to agree with dnolen. besides, nREPL will be a compelling reason for them to upgrade to 1.2
13:07	cemerick	heh
13:08	dnolen	I taked OS X stance - basically forced upgrade
13:08	dnolen	drag em kicking and screaming
13:08	cemerick	if defrecord and protocols aren't compelling enough, nREPL isn't going to be the feather that pushes them over the line
13:09	ninjudd	then they probably won't use nREPL anyway
13:10	dnolen	Clojure is just cutting edge tech, people who adopt it are early adopters - but what do I know. A real survey would be informative.
13:10	cemerick	dnolen: If all of the toolmakers say, go 1.2, I'll go 1.2
13:11	cemerick	They're the direct users shrug
13:11	dnolen	cemerick: which dev envs are not 1.2? ccw? vim-clojure?
13:11	cemerick	ccw and enclojure actively support < 1.2 (all the way back to 1.0, I think, but I can't cope with that)
13:11	cemerick	don't know about the others
13:12	ninjudd	people can always use old versions of the tools if they really must use 1.1
13:12	cemerick	ninjudd: tool versions are totally unrelated to deployment targets
13:13	ninjudd	i intended to have cake support 1.1, but i started using clojure.java.io and didn't realize i broke it for a month at least
13:14	ninjudd	cemerick: not totally. repl and swank and test have to run in the project classpath
13:14	cemerick	you mean in cake?
13:15	defn	did somebody say cake?
13:18	ninjudd	and swank and lein and anyone who wants nREPL to connect to their project
13:25	anonymouse89	is there a way, when using map, to get the index of the item in the list being mapped?
13:26	cemerick	anonymouse89: see map-indexed
13:27	anonymouse89	cemerick: do you happen know of an equivalent for pmap?
13:27	abrenk	stuartsierra: http://github.com/abrenk/clojure-contrib/commit/d6b88cba1065c4ae9c7df2c0966147dd428c1c41
13:28	stuartsierra	abrenk: thanks! will try this out later today
13:28	cemerick	anonymouse89: (pmap your-parallelized-fn (map-indexed vector some-seq))
13:28	abrenk	stuartsierra: I will add a couple of comments.
13:28	chouser	cemerick: CA table at the conj -- brilliant
13:29	chouser	just a stack of blank forms and a drop-box.
13:29	cemerick	absolutely
13:29	abrenk	stuartsierra: there are some other possibilities. perhaps we could discuss those on monday?
13:29	TeXnomancy	,(#'while :form :env :test :body) ; <= is this behaviour intentional or undefined?
13:29	clojurebot	(clojure.core/loop [] (clojure.core/when :test :body (recur)))
13:29	stuartsierra	abrenk: Monday I'll be back on client work.
13:29	abrenk	stuartsierra: are you around on the weekend?
13:29	chouser	TeXnomancy: undefined
13:30	stuartsierra	probably not
13:30	TeXnomancy	chouser: good to know; thanks.
13:30	abrenk	okay, then some time in the future
13:30	chouser	TeXnomancy: subjuct to change without notice
13:30	TeXnomancy	fascinating though
13:30	chouser	TeXnomancy: you're not technomancy are you.
13:31	TeXnomancy	chouser: I had an account on someone's IRC bouncer that I haven't figured out how to turn off; it keeps taking technomancy and forcing me back to my alternate nick
13:31	TeXnomancy	I really am, honest.
13:31	chouser	TeXnomancy: heh, ok.
13:32	TeXnomancy	I remember reading about Jim Weirich in this situation and someone was like, "If you're really Jim Weirich, implement the Y-combinator in Ruby from memory" and he was all --- bam! here you go.
13:33	TeXnomancy	I don't think I could do that, but you can ask me questions about Chesterton or Achewood to be sure.
13:33	hiredman	TeXnomancy: who is a special boy!
13:33	TeXnomancy	phillipe!
13:34	hiredman	legit
13:34	anonymouse89	cemerick: thanks for the help!
13:34	TeXnomancy	http://freezepop.net/listen/songs/Freezepop_Here%20Comes%20a%20Special%20Boy.mp3
13:36	pyrtsa	Hey, what's the shortest way to filter out all nil's (or alternatively falsey values) from a collection?
13:37	chouser	keep
13:37	pyrtsa	Great, thanks.
13:37	TeXnomancy	chouser: keep leaves false in
13:37	TeXnomancy	=(
13:37	chouser	actually, that depends. keep is like filter+map
13:39	hiredman	(remove (comp false? boolean) …
13:39	pyrtsa	Is there no function in clojure.core or clojure.contrib that tests for trueyness or falseyness?
13:39	hiredman	,(boolean nil)
13:39	clojurebot	false
13:39	hiredman	,(boolean false)
13:39	clojurebot	false
13:39	hiredman	,(boolean 1)
13:39	clojurebot	true
13:39	pyrtsa	Ah, right.
13:39	hiredman	etc
13:39	pyrtsa	So (filter boolean xs) would work as well.
13:40	hiredman	poor remove, almost never used
13:41	TeXnomancy	filter identity is the same, I think
13:41	TeXnomancy	speaking of which, identity should be the default predicate for filter/remove/every?, right?
13:41	pyrtsa	TeXnomancy: I was just about to suggest that.
13:42	chouser	TeXnomancy: yeah
13:42	TeXnomancy	ISTR suggesting it on the mailing list a month or so ago; didn't go anywhere. I guess a ticket would be the next step.
13:42	chouser	I'm not sure it'd be useful on remove, but yeah. take-while
13:43	pyrtsa	Possibly it should be the default for any function taking a predicate and collection.
13:43	TeXnomancy	actually yeah, if you have it on filter it's not needed on remove
13:43	pyrtsa	(That was a bold statement by me, I know.)
14:01	laurus	Is there a way to clear all user-defined variables, etc. from a REPL without restarting it?
14:01	stuartsierra	laurus: remove-ns gets you part way there
14:02	laurus	stuartsierra, your book is fantastic, by the way!
14:02	stuartsierra	laurus: thanks!
14:02	stuartsierra	got to go now
14:02	laurus	Wow, that was awesome.
14:02	laurus	Didn't expect to get help from the author of the book I'm reading! :)
14:03	laurus	At user=>, I see ::foo is equivalent to :user/foo. But isn't :foo also equivalent to :user/foo? Or am I missing something.
14:04	technomancy	,(= :foo ::foo)
14:04	clojurebot	false
14:04	laurus	technomancy, right, but why?
14:04	laurus	Isn't everything namespaced anyway?
14:05	technomancy	:foo is "bare"; not every keyword has a namespace
14:05	laurus	Does that apply to other data types as well?
14:05	technomancy	vars are the only thing that has to have a namespace, I think
14:06	laurus	Ah, right, I forgot there's a big difference between a var and a floating piece of data.
14:06	laurus	So in other words, vars get "auto-namespaced", but data doesn't.
14:07	cemerick	vars are defined within an ns
14:07	technomancy	keywords and symbols are the only things that may optionally have namespaces, I think. symbols are auto-namespaced only if they're inside a backquote.
14:07	technomancy	oh... and for the purposes of this and every other discussion, we pretend with-local-vars does not exist.
14:07	technomancy	because seriously
14:08	cemerick	heh
14:08	laurus	technomancy, I've never heard of that function, so that's fine with me! :) Hehe
14:09	laurus	Er, wait a minute...
14:09	chouser	symbols and keywords don't really have namespaces as such, just prefixes
14:09	chouser	...that can be used to find namespaces
14:09	laurus	:user/foo refers to a keyword called foo in the user name space. But how can someone look that up unless it is bound to a variable?
14:10	cemerick	:user/foo is that keyword
14:10	chouser	keywords aren't looked up anywhere. each keyword is its own value
14:10	laurus	Hmm, I think this book needs more examples.
14:11	laurus	chouser, so what is the point of "namespacing" a keyword?
14:11	technomancy	keyword praemium suum est
14:12	chouser	laurus: so that it's less likely to get confused with other people's keywords when they show up in the same place
14:12	laurus	Oh, so it's more for the programmer than for the system then?
14:12	cemerick	,{:size 5 :foo/size 6}
14:12	clojurebot	{:size 5, :foo/size 6}
14:13	chouser	laurus: mainly for when you're messing around with other peoples objects -- add your own key to some other lib's hash-map, or some metadata to an object that lots of libs might want to add metadata to.
14:14	chouser	the original case was the global 'isa?' hierarchy
14:14	cemerick	without that, you'd be doing :size 6, :my-size 12
14:15	laurus	cemerick, but does :foo/size actually refer to the keyword :size in the foo namespace?
14:15	laurus	Or does it just refer to a keyword called ":foo/size"
14:15	cemerick	it definitely has two components, though it doesn't really carry a namespace reference
14:16	cemerick	(name :foo/name)
14:16	chouser	laurus: in reality, just the latter.
14:16	cemerick	,(name :foo/name)
14:16	clojurebot	"name"
14:16	cemerick	^^ a string, not a namespace
14:16	laurus	chouser, okay. That's a little confusing ;)
14:16	laurus	Thanks for the clarification.
14:16	chouser	but because we have the double-colon shortcut, and just out of convention, it's good to use your own namespace as the prefix of your qualified keywords
14:16	amalloy	laurus: if you like getting help from the author of books you're reading, you should get the Joy of Clojure - chouser's on irc a lot more than stuart sierra
14:17	laurus	chouser, thank you! That makes a lot of sense now.
14:17	chouser	stuart sierra is probably an asset to his employer.
14:17	amalloy	haha
14:17	laurus	amalloy, well it's not out yet in paper form :p Also, the Joy of Clojure isn't introductory is it?
14:17	laurus	chouser, heh
14:17	joly	I just ordered JoC; really looking forward to getting into it this weekend
14:18	chouser	joly: cool, thanks!
14:18	amalloy	laurus: i read it as my first clojure book, after maybe two weeks' experience with common lisp. it was a little heavy, but not overwhelming
14:19	amalloy	chouser: honestly i'd be willing to sacrifice some of SS's usefulness to his employer
14:19	laurus	amalloy, oh, I see. I had some basic experience with Emacs Lisp but that's it. Also the Joy of Clojure looked more chatty than Practical Clojure, not that that's necessarily a bad thing
14:19	chouser	well, his employer is Clojure/core now, right, so it's a win either way. :-)
14:20	amalloy	chouser: is it? i guess that's okay then
14:20	chouser	laurus: but it's chatty with a bibliography! :-)
14:21	laurus	chouser, really, bibliography?
14:21	laurus	Sounds like it might be useful, I might check it out after I finish Practical Clojure when I can see the paper version. I'm not a big fan of reading books on the screen
14:21	chouser	yeah, fogus_ has that thing chock-full of references to papers and books I really ought to get around to reading.
14:21	rlb	Might want to add a mention in the docs that sort and sort-by are stable (assuming that's guaranteed)...
14:22	laurus	chouser, neat, that's great. I wish more books were like that.
14:23	laurus	It's interesting that (get) doesn't return a java.lang.IndexOutofBounds exception when you specify an index that is out of bounds of what you're passing as the first argument :P
14:23	chouser	but nth does
14:24	laurus	Oh, right.
14:25	abrenk	My version of the clojure-contrib build now produces a dependency for a single, large uberjar (named "standalone") and a dependency for multiple, small jars (named complete). See the last two commits on http://github.com/abrenk/clojure-contrib/commits/abrenk-build.
14:26	laurus	I see I can use hash-map and sorted-map functions to specify the underlying implementation of a map. How do I specify an array for the underlying implementation?
14:27	amalloy	,(array-map)
14:27	clojurebot	{}
14:27	laurus	amalloy, oh, hah, thanks.
14:27	amalloy	laurus: surprise! :)
14:28	cemerick	abrenk: nice -- interesting you used assembly instead of shade
14:28	abrenk	cemerick: perhaps I should get to know "shade"...
14:28	abrenk	cemerick: never heard of it
14:29	chouser	laurus: note that conj on an array-map may return a hash-map
14:30	laurus	chouser, thanks for the warning.
14:30	abrenk	cemerick: the second commit using the dependency instead of assembly plugin is nicer for the user because no need to specify a classifier
14:30	cemerick	yes, definitely preferable
14:31	abrenk	I'll take a look at the shade plugin later on. Need to get something to eat and then enjoy the friday evening.
14:32	cemerick	abrenk: What you have may be superior
14:36	abrenk	cemerick: I don't know when stuartsierra will have time to look at this. Feel free to merge into clojure-contrib.
14:36	cemerick	abrenk: I'm not a committer
14:36	cemerick	it'll require a submitted patch, in any case
14:36	abrenk	Is there a copyright on build scripts...? ggg
14:37	cemerick	abrenk: do you have a lodged CA?
14:37	abrenk	not yet
14:37	cemerick	you'll need to do that before submitting patches
14:37	technomancy	abrenk: according to the FSF legal team, contributions under 20 LOC are not copyrightable
14:37	abrenk	I should do so, also re: my clojure.test contributions
14:37	cemerick	http://clojure.org/contributing
14:37	technomancy	but that doesn't apply to Clojure =\
14:38	cemerick	all you need is a 21-liner to slip through...
14:38	abrenk	technomancy: thank god I copied over a hundred lines of dependencies... ;-)
14:38	technomancy	fun
14:39	AWizzArd	flatten is lazy yes?
14:39	AWizzArd	hmm yes, returns the result of filter
14:39	AWizzArd	btw, that filter could be replaced by remove
14:40	AWizzArd	then the call to complement could go away
14:50	ninjudd	cemerick: hmm, looks like your locking trick won't work because the lazy seq may never be realized
14:50	amalloy	AWizzArd: remove is implemented as (filter (complement pred) coll)
14:50	clojurebot	Reader syntax of collections has gotchas
14:51	cmiles74	I took everyone's comments (which I really appreciated :)) on my STOMP parser to heart and took another stab at it. I think this looks a lot better, if anyone could spare a glance at it I'd appreciate it. This is the first parser I've coded up in Clojure.
14:51	cemerick	ninjudd: hrm, crap. You're right.
14:51	ninjudd	cmiles74: there you are. did you get my message on github?
14:51	amalloy	AWizzArd: er...which is an argument in favor of your point, not against it. sorry, not really thinking
14:51	cmiles74	ninjudd: I did, I'm reading it over right now. :)
14:52	cmiles74	ninjudd: I would gladly help you with your project. :) It was also very nice of you to say kind things about my stomp parser code.
14:54	ninjudd	cmiles74: have you had a chance to look at my code? how hard to you think it would be to merge the two projects?
14:55	ninjudd	cmiles74: at least they have the same name ;)
14:55	cmiles74	ninjudd: ha!
14:55	cmiles74	I will look at it next. I feel better about my parser, the first pass I knew was pretty weak.
14:56	cmiles74	I don't have a lot of code, I can't imagine it'd be too hard. :P
14:56	ninjudd	cmiles74: the fun part is going to be writing the broker ;) have you started on that at all?
14:56	cmiles74	ninjudd: I haven't, but I've been reading through the Netty documentation and it does look nice.
14:57	cemerick	ninjudd, cmiles74: gozirra might be a good reference impl to look at, if only because it's very small :-)
14:58	cmiles74	ninjudd: I work for a hospital, I have to write a lot of little applications to route or alter these messages that go from system to system (i.e. radiology over to registration, etc.) I've been writing my own socket code for these and I'm starting to get to point where I need my own protocol. Stomp sounds better than memaking something up.
14:58	clojurebot	http://clojure-log.n01se.net/date/2009-10-13.html#12:02
14:58	ninjudd	i was planning to just use ServerSocket, because that's what i've used in the past, but i'd like to learn Netty
14:59	cemerick	nREPL can't require netty
14:59	cmiles74	ninjudd: I hadn't heard of Netty before but it does do some nice things. It would be a dependency, however.
14:59	chouser	if you use netty you might as well use an existing stomp implementation
14:59	cemerick	I mean, just FWIW
15:00	cemerick	or, hornetq for that matter :-)
15:00	cmiles74	If we use Netty, it will be easier to change the transport layer out from under the service. For instance, supporting the STOMP client and server over webscoket as well as TCP.
15:01	ninjudd	cemerick: well then you have to let us use protocols so we can swap out different socket implementations
15:01	dnolen	down with 1.1
15:01	ninjudd	cemerick: you choose: 1.1 support, or no Netty dep ;)
15:01	cmiles74	cemerick: Why can't nREPL require Netty?
15:02	cemerick	You guys can use whatever you want, but I'm not letting protocol or transport concerns influence nREPLs deps
15:02	cmiles74	cemerick: I'm not trying to talk you into anything, I'm just curious.
15:03	cemerick	cmiles74: see Deployment Considerations here: http://bit.ly/nreplnotes
15:03	AWizzArd	,(.getClassLoader Object) ; why is it like this?
15:03	clojurebot	nil
15:03	ninjudd	cemerick: i agree that we should be able to just depend on ServerSocket, which is why we should use protocols
15:03	cemerick	eh, we already went 'round on that
15:03	AWizzArd	Should it not be the bootstrap CL?
15:04	ninjudd	right, where did we leave it? need input from the tools developers on whether they are ok with dropping 1.1?
15:04	chouser	is the performance requirement such that we need protocols instead of multimethods?
15:04	cmiles74	Doesn't Horent use Netty as well?
15:05	chouser	cmiles74, ninjudd: I think the ideal would be swappable implementations
15:05	cemerick	ninjudd: I heard grumbling about dropping 1.0.
15:05	ninjudd	chouser: it isn't a performance thing. more of an expression/elegance thing
15:06	cemerick	I'd rather save my powder for convincing tool leads to adopt the thing.
15:06	chouser	no dep, pure clojure, feature-lean client and server that can each interoperate with each other or with the featureful implementation such as provided by hornetq
15:06	ninjudd	who wants to write a 1.1 implementation of defprotocol using multimethods?
15:06	cmiles74	chouser: You are correct, I was just typing something like that. :) In the case of nREPL on someone's desk inside Eclipse or whatever, we could use our own.
15:07	chouser	ninjudd: any elegance protocols have over multimethods can be matched by a simple macro
15:07	cemerick	Man, protocols are, what, 6 months old and they're already must-haves?
15:07	chouser	cmiles74: 'zactly
15:07	ninjudd	chouser: perfect, so you're volunteering?
15:07	laurus	Why doesn't rseq work on a quoted list?
15:07	chouser	ninjudd: I have such a macro.
15:08	chouser	you want it?
15:08	cemerick	ha
15:08	ninjudd	chouser: absolutely
15:08	chouser	I wrote it for illustration purposes for my Strange Loop talk. I didn't think anyone would actually want it.
15:09	chouser	ninjudd: http://gist.github.com/606678
15:10	laurus	,(rseq '(1 2 3 4))
15:10	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Reversible
15:10	laurus	,(rseq (seq '(1 2 3 4)))
15:10	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Reversible
15:10	laurus	Why does this happen?
15:10	cemerick	for some reason, that exchange made me cast vader:obiwan::ninjudd:chouser http://www.icanhasinternets.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/darthobi.jpg
15:10	ninjudd	chouser: awesome. so simple
15:11	chouser	note the "protocol name" in there (DataRow in the example) is completely ignored. Included only to be arg-for-arg with defprotocol
15:11	chouser	ninjudd: yup
15:11	ninjudd	i'm vader?
15:11	ataggart	that's pretty cool
15:11	cemerick	just in my head
15:11	cemerick	:-)
15:11	chouser	heh
15:12	chouser	laurus: there's no way to lazily walk a list from the far end
15:12	chouser	laurus: so they don't support rseq
15:12	ninjudd	maybe Anakin
15:12	laurus	chouser, hmm, okay, I'll just take your word for it and not dig deeper
15:12	laurus	This isn't an important concept to go more in depth into is it?
15:13	chouser	laurus: it's a small aspect of an important concept
15:13	chouser	it more often comes up as "why is (seq? [1 2 3]) false?"
15:13	laurus	Well a vector is not a sequence, right?
15:13	chouser	righto
15:13	alexyk	ninjudd: do you have a separate channel for protobuf?
15:14	laurus	But why does rseq have to lazily walk the list? I tried to convert the list into a sequence manually there.
15:14	ninjudd	no, i just use #jiraph
15:14	chouser	laurus: ISeq also doesn't support rseq. You can use 'reverse' if you want, instead of 'rseq'
15:15	laurus	,(seq? '(1 2 3 4))
15:15	clojurebot	true
15:15	laurus	So why doesn't rseq work on that seq?
15:16	chouser	rseq is for collections that have order and can be efficiently walked from right to left
15:16	laurus	Oh, okay. So it doesn't just simply "reverse a sequence."
15:16	chouser	no, that's what 'reverse' does
15:16	chouser	,(reverse '(1 2 3 4))
15:16	clojurebot	(4 3 2 1)
15:17	chouser	reverse is O(n) -- walks the whole seq so it can get to the last item and start by returning that. non-lazy.
15:17	chouser	thus you can understand the cost when you call it.
15:17	laurus	Hmm, okay. I guess I thought all sequences were "the same" regardless of what kind of collection they came from in the first place.
15:17	raek	which is most ideomatic: foo->bar or foo-to-bar?
15:17	chouser	rseq's docs explicitly state constant time, so must be supported by the underlying collection.
15:18	raek	I noticed that the former appeared in JoC...
15:18	laurus	So underneath each sequence is actually the original collection is what you're saying?
15:18	chouser	laurus: generally, yes, or at least a portion of it.
15:19	laurus	chouser, interesting. Thanks for that detail!
15:19	chouser	...or the code to produce it.
15:19	laurus	Right :) Heh.
15:19	chouser	if all you have a seq, that seq still promises to give you the rest of the data if you call rest enough times. So all the data (or the code to produce it) has to be there.
15:20	laurus	Right.
15:21	chouser	,((juxt class identity) [1 2 3])
15:21	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.PersistentVector [1 2 3]]
15:21	chouser	,((juxt class rseq) [1 2 3])
15:21	clojurebot	[clojure.lang.PersistentVector (3 2 1)]
15:21	chouser	oh
15:21	chouser	,(class (rseq [1 2 3]))
15:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.APersistentVector$RSeq
15:21	chouser	,(class (seq [1 2 3]))
15:21	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq
15:23	laurus	It's interesting that (first "ant") returns \a and not "a".
15:25	AWizzArd	I am currently fighting with those multiple variants of seqs for my serializer
15:26	chouser	AWizzArd: I would hope their concrete classes wouldn't matter.
15:26	AWizzArd	chouser: well, I will for now implement a serializer which can serialize them all, but then return a PersistentList when deserializing.
15:28	AWizzArd	I started off by implementing one that returns exactly the same class again, such as PersistentVector$ChunkedSeq or APersistentMap$KeySeq or APersistentMap$ValSeq or LazySeq
15:28	chouser	hm
15:28	AWizzArd	that was too much work, and most likely not too useful
15:30	chouser	I'm sure it has something to say on this matter
15:30	AWizzArd	I see, so I should maybe also have a look on this
15:31	chouser	well, rhickey promotes it frequently. I've started reading it before, but never yet finished.
15:32	dnolen	huh, never realized clojure.set has basic db style operations
15:32	AWizzArd	And from what you have read so far, would you say that when you serialize a clojure.lang.APersistentVector$RSeq you want such a thing back?
15:33	chouser	AWizzArd: I don't see how I could care.
15:34	chouser	I might care that I get back something that implements ISeq, Counted, Obj, IndexedSeq, Iterable, Sequential, etc.
15:36	labatitude	I want to use clojure.xml/parse, which takes a stream, but I have a string. How can I make my string into a stream?
15:36	labatitude	(I've done this before but forgotten again.)
15:38	hiredman	ByteArrayInputStream
15:38	AWizzArd	chouser: if I want to save Clojure images I should probably really save all those concrete classes
15:40	AWizzArd	But for now I want to come closer to publish that lib soon, and will just return PersistentLists.
15:42	labatitude	hiredman: I'm getting "java.lang.String cannot be cast to [B"
15:42	labatitude	does this look like the right way?
15:42	labatitude	(java.io.ByteArrayInputStream. "<?xml version='1.0'?><stuff>And more</stuff>")
15:42	hiredman	uh
15:43	hiredman	that's because you need to turn the string into a byte array first
15:43	hiredman	~jdoc String
15:43	hiredman	~jdoc java.io.ByteArrayInputStream
15:43	labatitude	ok, its all in java. I'll go read that right now. Thanks
15:49	hugod	cemerick: the in thing I mentioned is now working in swank-clj, fwiw
15:49	cemerick	ok
15:49	AWizzArd	chouser: much more I am worried about deeply nested collections
15:49	cemerick	hugod: trying to keep feature-competitive? ;-)
15:50	AWizzArd	My current approach is (like Clojures printer) recursive serialization. This would fail for a list that is nested deeper than 16k levels.
15:50	cemerick	hugod: more on-point: if you might be interested in writing a swank adapter for nREPL, that'd be stellar.
15:51	labatitude	hiredman: working now, thanks.
15:51	hugod	cemerick: there are some differences eg. message id's are client generated in swank
15:52	cemerick	hugod: that's no problem -- I had originally allowed for user-generated IDs in the API
15:52	cemerick	hugod: Any swank-compatability-related changes that would be helpful, I'll make.
15:53	hugod	cemerick: my main drive is to get jpda working at the moment. The in thing is something supported by swank but that wasn't in swank-clojure
15:54	cemerick	I understand.
15:55	cemerick	hugod: What I'm saying is, if at all possible, I want to encourage SLIME compat.
15:59	alexyk	is there a standard process of updating 1.1 code to 1.2? e.g., can use/require seq-utils be just dropped, and same for other things folded into core?
16:07	stuartsierra	~seen abrenk
16:07	clojurebot	abrenk was last seen in #clojure, 89 minutes ago saying: technomancy: thank god I copied over a hundred lines of dependencies... ;-)
16:09	cemerick	stuartsierra: he pushed something he said was working well
16:09	stuartsierra	yes I saw.
16:09	stuartsierra	My question is: does he have a CA?
16:09	cemerick	nope
16:09	stuartsierra	drat
16:10	cemerick	he has other patches lingering, so hopefully we can make fun of him until he relents :-)
16:10	cemerick	stuartsierra: not sure if you saw this before: there should be a lodge-your-CA-here table at the conj. Pass it on to the right folk.
16:10	stuartsierra	will do
16:10	cemerick	no one should leave on Friday without being settled
16:11	stuartsierra	Conj boss Alan officially notified.
16:13	cemerick	wooby: sorry, should've gone to you directly :-/
16:13	stuartsierra	nicknames confuse me
16:13	cemerick	handle out of sight, out of mind :-(
16:13	stuartsierra	real names are hard enough
16:13	charliekilo	ztellman , sorry to bother with a stupid question : I'm playing around with aleph and are tying to figure what the preferred way is to add functionality in the communication ... I tried wrap-channel, but that does not seem to work (see http://gist.github.com/606776)
16:14	ztellman	charliekilo: messages for tcp servers are ChannelBuffers
16:15	wooby	good progress on the conj front today btw, t-shirts and goody bags ordered
16:15	ztellman	trying to put that in a str will cause issues, I think
16:15	ztellman	let me play around with it a bit
16:17	cemerick	ninjudd: do you still have a use case for an incremental progress API if nREPL is going to support streaming out, err, System/out, and System/err?
16:18	charliekilo	ztellman: ah, ok ... I thought it did automagic conversion ... is 'wrap-channel' the right function in this case or is there a better/preferred way?
16:18	ztellman	charliekilo: wrap-channel is the right function
16:18	ninjudd	cemerick: no, i think i just needed that for streaming
16:18	cemerick	ok, back burner for now then
16:19	ztellman	charliekilo: there's some more automagical conversion stuff sitting on my computer that I haven't submitted yet
16:19	cemerick	ninjudd: any issues with my reusing some of cake's multiplexing bits?
16:19	ztellman	once that's in, I think you'd see "Response: <ChannelBuffer ...>"
16:20	ninjudd	cemerick: the multi-outstream stuff?
16:20	abrenk	stuartsierra: The CA is coming out of the printer right this moment.
16:20	cemerick	and such, yes. Not sure if I can reuse it as is, but I figured I'd ask ahead of time.
16:20	stuartsierra	abrenk: awesome
16:21	ninjudd	cemerick: go for it.
16:21	charliekilo	ztellman : gotcha ... I think that points me in the right direction ... I will keep an eye out for it in the next commits
16:21	charliekilo	ztellman : thanks
16:22	ninjudd	cemerick: the most confusing part about that is how it supports an atom for the root binding of outs and errs
16:22	ztellman	charliekilo: once I check that stuff in tonight, this should do what you want: http://gist.github.com/606792
16:22	ninjudd	cemerick: that makes it so futures and Threads will print to the most recently registered stream
16:24	charliekilo	ztellman : thanks
16:25	ninjudd	cemerick: though i think rhickey said yesterday that any code that relies on printing in a future without establishing out is broken, so you may just be able to remove that part
16:26	cemerick	very, very true
16:26	cemerick	I have a couple of ideas, but they're longshots
16:26	cemerick	Allowing clients to opt into listening to System/out and err on a per-connection basis is the next best fallback.
16:26	cemerick	And desirable otherwise, anyway.
16:27	ninjudd	cemerick: it would also me nice if you could just bind out and it would take care of System/out for you. but you'll have to deal with decoding and encoding the characters
16:27	cemerick	out related a requested code eval and listenting to System/out have to be kept separate
16:29	ninjudd	cemerick: not sure i follow
16:30	cemerick	I don't ever want System/out to get into content sent back as out -- clients that would prefer to show them separately wouldn't be able to do so.
16:30	ninjudd	cemerick: i see. that makes sense. but System/out should still be separate per thread
16:31	cemerick	for futures and such you mean?
16:31	ninjudd	no, just for code that prints directly to System/out
16:32	ninjudd	java code
16:32	cemerick	why separate per thread?
16:32	ninjudd	well that is what multi-outstream does
16:33	ninjudd	cemerick: otherwise you could get some other thread's System/out in your repl
16:33	ninjudd	cemerick: very confusing when it happens
16:34	cemerick	Oh, I see what you're saying.
16:39	hugod	cemerick: sorry, phone call - I don't see a big difference between nrepl and swank-clj
16:39	cemerick	That's good.
16:40	cemerick	hugod: or, are you saying you're not sure why we're not just using swank-clojure? ;-)
16:42	cemerick	ninjudd: The thing about the wonky System/out stuff that cake does is, e.g. (future (.println System/out "fooey"))
16:42	hugod	cemerick: kind of, yes
16:43	ninjudd	cemerick: just bind the root of outs to the original System/out
16:43	cemerick	hugod: no clojure client, tied to whatever the SLIME people want to do with it
16:45	cemerick	and, as things go along, nREPL will be STOMP-ified, and a lot more flexible
16:45	hugod	cemerick: well, a clojure client would need writing anyway
16:45	cemerick	hugod: think: distributing code to N nodes...
16:46	ninjudd	cemerick: like i said the wonky stuff with letting the root be an atom and using the most recently registered stream can be removed if you want
16:46	ninjudd	or optional
16:46	technomancy	we could fork the swank protocol. we kinda already do that by saying "only this one revision from early 2010 is supported"
16:46	technomancy	for the record, hugod is rather more of an authority on swank than I am; my understanding of the protocol is rather superficial
16:47	ninjudd	technomancy: don't you lose the benefit of nREPL and Stomp if you wrap the server with a swank compatibilty layer?
16:48	hugod	you could put stomp into swank clojure easily enough
16:48	ninjudd	seems like the best way to go is to write an elisp nREPL client
16:48	technomancy	I haven't been keeping up with the nrepl discussions; just responding to hugod's comments.
16:48	lancepantz	i would be a fan of moving away from the swank protocol all together, even though i understand that would be throwing away a lot of work, either that, or atleast document it better
16:48	lancepantz	i could find no documentation of the protocol and the code was a mess
16:49	cemerick	ninjudd: being able to use SLIME is the motivator in that case
16:49	cemerick	I doubt many people are very motivated to write elisp to replace it.
16:49	hugod	I am working on adding jpda support and have refactored swank-clojure significantly in my swank-clj repo
16:51	ninjudd	cemerick: you're probably right. making swank-clj a stomp client will be much less work
16:52	cemerick	ninjudd: swank-clj is a server
16:52	ninjudd	cemerick: i know
16:54	ninjudd	cemerick: but it will also have to be a stomp client to communicate with nREPL. or were you thinking of talking to nREPL library functions directly?
16:54	cemerick	ninjudd: it seems like the simplest paths would be to write a swank wrapper for nREPL, or write an nREPL client in elisp, and hook it into SLIME somehow
16:56	AWizzArd	Is there a problem with the current slime repl?
16:56	ninjudd	cemerick: i suppose i am proposing a third option: writing a swank library that communicates with nREPL using stomp
16:57	cemerick	so you'd need two servers?
16:57	ninjudd	aye
16:57	cemerick	shrug
16:57	ninjudd	three if you count the broker
16:57	ninjudd	indirection ;)
16:57	ninjudd	very flexible from what i hear...
16:57	cemerick	well, in that scenario, nREPL is a client too
16:58	AWizzArd	Why so many servers? The current emacs + slime setup seems to be working well?
16:58	cemerick	AWizzArd: But does nothing for those using other tools.
16:58	lancepantz	AWizzArd: the issue is that it only works in emacs
16:58	AWizzArd	yes
16:58	cemerick	AWizzArd: see the Premise here: http://bit.ly/nreplnotes
16:58	AWizzArd	okay, I will read it :)
16:59	lancepantz	the talk is about a replacement that works with all tools
16:59	ninjudd	cemerick: yes, there are no servers anymore. just clients and brokers ;)
16:59	AWizzArd	My current naive thought is that all others could just try to use swank then. But I will see what I find behind that link :-)
16:59	cemerick	I'm happy with whatever makes the emacsen happy, fundamentally.
17:00	ninjudd	cemerick: but you'd probably be happier if they use your external network api rather than try to hook into you implementation directly
17:00	cemerick	ninjudd: yeah, the value is in the tool interop, not in the actual REPL impl
17:01	ninjudd	cemerick: if the swank-clj implementation calls your functions directly, you will be stuck never changing them
17:01	cemerick	I can't see why swank-clj would ever do that. No value there.
17:02	cemerick	actually, once nREPL is using STOMP, then an elisp stomp/nREPL client may be the only reasonable option
17:02	cemerick	That's either really good or really bad.
17:02	ninjudd	that's what i said!!!
17:02	cemerick	no it wasn't -- it doesn't involve swank-clj at all
17:03	ninjudd	the first thing i said, before i proposed the intermediate server/client/swank/stomp bridge idea
17:03	cemerick	anyway, my speculating on what's best for emacs users is fairly absurd
17:03	cemerick	oh, right
17:03	cemerick	yes
17:03	cemerick	I was agreeing with your initial suggestion :-D
17:04	hugod	:), I just want to use slime
17:04	cemerick	right -- no one gives a hoot about protocols :-)
17:04	lancepantz	world are colliding omg!
17:04	fbru02	can i ask an OT question ?
17:04	lancepantz	s/world/worlds/
17:04	sexpbot	<lancepantz> worlds are colliding omg!
17:04	ninjudd	i really think the server/client/swank/stomp bridge will be the easiest to implement
17:05	cemerick	That is, until they make it so that you can't connect to my app that uses REPL server A, and I can't connect to your app that uses swank-clj.
17:05	hugod	the protocol is half the story - there are also all the functions that get called in the repl
17:05	cemerick	ninjudd: what about embedded REPLs in deployed apps though?
17:06	ninjudd	cemerick: good point. i guess you would have to run a swank-bridge on your local box
17:06	cemerick	yack
17:06	cemerick	Or, hey, whatever. Peace, man.
17:06	ninjudd	cemerick: your .emacs could start it up for you ;)
17:07	ninjudd	cemerick: i checked in the fix to read-body http://github.com/ninjudd/clj-stomp/commit/72be202f05106388348bda5b0d636742fd746ae5
17:07	cemerick	nifty
17:07	ninjudd	cemerick: thanks again! looks like that fixed my locking problem with hornetq
17:07	cemerick	fbru02: ask away
17:08	ninjudd	(stompserver and coilmq still appear to not implement ack:auto correctly though)
17:08	cemerick	~ask
17:08	clojurebot	No entiendo
17:08	cemerick	~Ask?
17:08	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
17:08	ninjudd	~ask?
17:08	cemerick	bah
17:08	clojurebot	I don't understand.
17:08	ninjudd	~what is asking?
17:08	cemerick	It used to have a nifty line for that
17:08	clojurebot	Pardon?
17:08	cemerick	$ask
17:08	cemerick	oh well
17:08	ninjudd	$8ball what is asking?
17:08	sexpbot	ninjudd: Concentrate and ask again.
17:09	ninjudd	hahaha
17:09	technomancy	~anyone
17:09	clojurebot	Please do not ask if anyone uses, knows, is good with, can help you with <some program or library>. Instead, ask your real question and someone will answer if they can help.
17:10	ninjudd	poor fbru02. what's your question man?
17:11	fbru02	cemerick: ninjudd and all : sorry to interrupt
17:12	fbru02	we and a friend are going to Strangeloop and the conj from Uruguay (me) Argentina (him)
17:12	fbru02	which is the best place to spend the days in between conferences ? St Lois or Durham?
17:14	brianstamand	~ask
17:14	clojurebot	Huh?
17:14	brianstamand	~what is seq
17:14	clojurebot	'Sea, mhuise.
17:15	scottj	fbru02: how many days?
17:15	ninjudd	fbru02: i've never been to either. how are you getting from St. Louis to Durham?
17:16	fbru02	ninjudd: by car
17:16	fbru02	scottj: i guess it is around 6
17:16	scottj	I would go somewhere else
17:17	fbru02	maybe forget the car thing and fly NYC ?
17:19	scottj	yeah or w/ car you could do DC or something else in NC
17:19	ninjudd	fbru02: if you're a baseball fan, you could go through Cincinnati and see the Reds in the NLCS ;-)
17:20	fbru02	ninjudd: i don't know anything about baseball it is not that popular around here
17:21	scottj	beware of MLS :)
17:21	fbru02	scottj: i might be getting picky but DC is the only city i know really well in the states, when i was a kid i was sick and went to DC 15 times (from south america)
17:22	scottj	fbru02: oh yeah don't go there then. for 6 days you can fly anywhere in the US easily
17:24	cemerick	fbru02: Chicago is not too far from St. Louis, in relative terms anyway.
17:25	fbru02	ninjudd: scottj cemerick are u guys going to conj or strange loop ?
17:26	scottj	conj
17:26	cemerick	conj
17:26	clojurebot	(conj {:a 1} (when true {:b 2}))
17:26	ninjudd	conj
17:27	ninjudd	defn: you're going to strangeloop, right?
17:45	ninjudd	the best part about fbru02's question was that it wasn't about <some program or library> at all
17:47	ninjudd	is there no :or destructuring form for vectors?
17:48	hiredman	if you want associative destructuring features you need to use associative destructuring
17:49	ninjudd	it would be useful for optional arguments (defn foo [required & [opt1 :or 4 opt2 :or 8]] ...)
17:49	hiredman	,(let [{n 0 :or {n :a}} [:a]] [])
17:49	clojurebot	[]
17:49	hiredman	,(let [{n 0 :or {n :a}} [:a]] [n])
17:49	clojurebot	[:a]
17:49	ninjudd	hiredman: oh, right!
17:49	ninjudd	brilliant
17:49	hiredman	,(let [{n 0 :or {n :a}} []] [n])
17:49	clojurebot	[:a]
17:50	ninjudd	hiredman: thanks
17:50	alexyk	ninjudd: how can I set java.library.path in cake?
17:51	ninjudd	alexyk: 'project.library.path = /whatever' in .cake/config
17:51	alexyk	ninjudd: only in .cake/config? no way per-project?
17:52	ninjudd	alexyk: if it was in project.clj, then everyone would have to have the exact same lib directory location as you
17:53	alexyk	yeah
17:53	ninjudd	alexyk: cake automatically adds lib/native/arch/osname
17:54	alexyk	ok
17:54	alexyk	as you can guess, I'm redoing tokyocabinet :)
17:54	ninjudd	though that is more for native deps extracted from jars
17:54	alexyk	but what was there is obsolete
17:54	ztellman	what time/day are people flying back from clojure conj?
17:55	ztellman	I'm making travel arrangements, and I don't know if 7pm on the 23rd would cut things too close
17:55	ninjudd	alexyk: just add [tokyocabinet "1.23-SNAPSHOT"] to your dependencies
17:55	ninjudd	ztellman: i am flying back at 7:15pm on the 23rd
17:56	alexyk	ninjudd: I'm running in -server -d64, and 32 bit failed
17:56	alexyk	so I recompiled new one, seems to build ok on Mac
17:56	ztellman	ninjudd: do you know when things are actually finishing up on the 23rd?
17:56	ninjudd	ztellman: though i made my arrangements before i heard there was a secret after party ;)
17:57	ninjudd	ztellman: 5:30pm
17:57	ninjudd	alexyk: what problem are you having with the tokyocabinet on clojars?
17:58	alexyk	ninjudd: actually didn't try that... I needed jnilib and built locally
17:59	ninjudd	alexyk: if you're using cake, give the clojars one a try. should seamlessly extract the native deps from the jar and add them to your library path
18:00	alexyk	ninjudd: not only I'm using the cake, I'm swearing by it!
18:00	alexyk	anybody driving to conj from Boston area? NH/MA?
18:01	alexyk	cemerick: how are you getting to conj?
18:01	ninjudd	for some reason i imagine cemerick driving to the conj on a motorcycle
18:02	alexyk	ninjudd: it would be a long drive, and Western MA hicks are notorious for their roadblock extortions
18:03	alexyk	the Scala patrol is especially bad
18:03	ninjudd	Western MA hicks, you say?
18:03	alexyk	yep
18:03	ninjudd	i can't imagine
18:04	alexyk	well it's a leap of imagination, inspired by late-night driving :)
18:04	alexyk	and truck-stop brawls
18:10	alexyk	ninjudd: why can't I run cake repl under rlwrap?
18:10	ninjudd	cake repl uses Readline internally, no need for rlwrap
18:11	alexyk	ninjudd: how do I search backwards, C-r?
18:12	ninjudd	alexyk: yes
18:12	ninjudd	alexyk: we don't use rlwrap because then you can't have completion or multi-line history entries
18:13	alexyk	ok
18:16	alexyk	ninjudd: C-r does nothing for me... How does cake find readline?
18:16	ABS	I'm getting started with Clojure. While setting up my tooling on emacs (primarily slime), I wondered how more experienced folks use completion for Java members.
18:17	ABS	Or even the extent to which code completion is supposed to work.
18:17	ninjudd	alexyk: cake should warn you if it cannot find readline
18:17	ABS	The only pattern I have managed to successfully get completions on thus far is (Class/staticMember) eg (System/getProperti[Tab] completes to (System/getProperties) as one would expect.
18:17	ABS	Nothing else seems to complete for me eg can I easily see the members of the java.util.Properties instance returned by the previous call in my simple example?
18:18	ninjudd	alexyk: do you have something in ~/.inputrc or ~/.editrc that is changing your input mode?
18:18	alexyk	ninjudd: nope
18:18	alexyk	but my readline is in macports, am not sure cake sees it
18:19	ninjudd	alexyk: does readline work for irb?
18:19	alexyk	although arrow-up works
18:19	dnolen	ABS: Slime has an inspector, you should be able to inspect Java objects with it.
18:19	ninjudd	alexyk: if up arrow works, then readline is working
18:19	alexyk	C-r doesn't work... will have to investigate
18:19	ABS	Yes, the inspector's nice. I have taken a look at it.
18:19	ABS	I was wondering if rapid typing-time completions work?
18:21	ABS	or can be made to work with some effort?
18:23	dnolen	ABS: hmm dunno.
18:23	ninjudd	alexyk: could have something to do with libedit on OS X
18:23	ninjudd	alexyk: http://bogojoker.com/readline/
18:24	ninjudd	http://bogojoker.com/readline/#libedit_detection
18:24	technomancy	ABS: it might be able to leverage type hints where those are found, but I don't think it could get method completions on objects for which it doesn't know the type
18:24	alexyk	ninjudd: thx! have to play to get my C-r back
18:25	ninjudd	technomancy: right. you type the method before the object it is called on
18:25	technomancy	yeah, propagating type hints from the arglist through to all its usage inside a defn may be nontrivial
18:26	ninjudd	alexyk: http://hints.macworld.com/article.php?story=20080313113705760
18:26	ABS	dnolen: Thanks.
18:26	ABS	technomancy: I see. Makes sense.
18:27	ninjudd	ABS: i use emacs dumb completion M-/
18:27	ninjudd	it uses the list of strings in the file as possible completions
18:28	ninjudd	works pretty well in a lot of cases
18:28	ABS	ninjudd: Yes, dabbrev works well for me too.
18:29	alexyk	ninjudd: thx, the hint saves irb!
18:29	ninjudd	i always though dabbrev stood for dumb abbrev.. heh, it is dynamic abbrev
18:29	alexyk	...and cake repl
18:29	ABS	ninjudd: :-)
18:30	ninjudd	alexyk: great! want to add the fix to the cake wiki?
18:31	alexyk	ninjudd: sure
18:31	alexyk	do you need to add me on github to it?
18:32	ninjudd	alexyk: should be open http://github.com/ninjudd/cake/wiki
18:32	alexyk	ok
18:32	ninjudd	needs some love
18:32	alexyk	a bit later will love it a bit :)
18:43	raek	hrm, I try to use enlive templates stored in resources/
18:43	raek	it doesn't work, but if I place them in src/, it works
18:43	raek	both should be on the classpath
18:44	raek	what am I doing wrong?
18:46	raek	hrm, nevermind... it magically started to work :)
18:47	KirinDave	Hey guys.
18:47	KirinDave	It's late in the day and I'm having a problem with a method that really should be easy
18:48	KirinDave	I'm sure that it's a trivial mistake
18:48	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/8288dd764083f099d0d0
18:48	KirinDave	That doesn't seem to be updating internal structures
18:51	ninjudd	KirinDave: won't (assoc :headers (or headers (:headers response))) replace what you did in the previous two lines if map has :headers in it?
18:51	KirinDave	Oh yeah, huh.
18:51	KirinDave	See, simple mistake.
18:51	ninjudd	:)
18:52	KirinDave	I'm so tired.
18:52	KirinDave	Been working nonstop on this port of webmachine.
18:52	KirinDave	I've almost got everything in place.
18:52	KirinDave	All that's left to do is finish up the edges of the graph.
18:53	KirinDave	And finish the state threading so handlers can modify things.
18:53	ninjudd	KirinDave: is it open source?
18:53	KirinDave	It will be soon.
18:54	KirinDave	Let me get it actually going end-to-end on http requests and we'll opensource it.
18:54	ninjudd	cool. i'll keep my eyes out for it
18:54	KirinDave	It's really nice the way it's working out
18:54	KirinDave	For example, here is some of the graph
18:54	KirinDave	https://gist.github.com/2aff4d471c06d1c0d02f
18:54	KirinDave	Most of the nodes in the graph are just dead simple.
18:55	KirinDave	And once I update to 1.3, I'll do the ^:static thing and think about performance.
18:55	technomancy	so banksimple is the company that's secretly working on a web framework, not relevance... secrets revealed!
18:55	KirinDave	(like that method I showed does way too much work. :\)
18:55	KirinDave	technomancy: Yeah secret is out.
18:55	KirinDave	Someone tweeted it like immediately.
18:56	KirinDave	And now every 20 minutes I get an email or dm from someone asking for work.
18:56	KirinDave	Ahh, startup world.
18:56	ninjudd	KirinDave: this looks great.
18:56	technomancy	KirinDave: someone had a thread a few weeks back on the clojure mailing list something like "Do you think Relevance is secretly working on building a web framework? I hope so!"
18:56	technomancy	but now we know the truth
18:56	KirinDave	No secret.
18:56	KirinDave	We need a REST API framework
18:56	KirinDave	I think clojure is the best bet for this.
18:57	KirinDave	I saw scala-webmachine and it's pretty opaque.
19:01	KirinDave	I have to say I love Clojure's # convention for gensyms
19:01	KirinDave	This is the first time I've been doing serious macro hacking in Clojure and it's WAY more convenient that common lisp's method.
19:01	KirinDave	This is so much more readable without having an extra let body: https://gist.github.com/c9e6eb3c117db6eb7dca
19:14	ninjudd	,(meta (with-meta (iterate inc 1) {:type ::foo}))
19:14	clojurebot	{:type :sandbox/foo}
19:14	charliekilo	ztellman, stupid aleph understanding question: for a client that connects to a tcp server and (slowly) uploads binary data, a pipeline will start receiving and processing (partial) messages immediately and not wait until e.g. the client disconnects, correct?
19:14	ninjudd	,(meta (drop 10 (with-meta (iterate inc 1) {:type ::foo})))
19:14	clojurebot	nil
19:14	ninjudd	hmm
19:15	ztellman	charliekilo: each packet will come through individually, yes
19:15	ztellman	are you not seeing this behavior?
19:15	ninjudd	i feel like i've asked this before. should drop remove meta from a lazy-seq?
19:17	hiredman	ninjudd: the seq before the drop and wafter are not the same seq
19:19	ninjudd	hiredman: assoc, for example, doesn't remove meta though.
19:19	ninjudd	the maps are not the same map in that case
19:23	charliekilo	ztellman, yep, thats what I see ... currently trying to port a Netty-based Clojure application (which has a ChannelUpstreamHandler that forwards the complete message when client disconnects) to the much cleaner aleph .. probably have to rething my approach
19:24	ztellman	charliekilo: it's not hard to accumulate everything
19:26	charliekilo	ztellman, just to make I'm not completely off track, the accumulation would need to happen in the pipeline, not channel, right?
19:27	ztellman	charliekilo: http://gist.github.com/607061
19:27	ztellman	yes
19:28	ztellman	that's off the top of my head, mind you, that may have a thing or two wrong with it
19:29	charliekilo	ztellman, thanks, that makes sense ... and sorry about all my obvious questions
19:29	ztellman	charliekilo: if they're not obvious to you, they're not obvious
19:29	ztellman	I'm trying to get the documentation as clear as possible, every question you have helps me understand how to make it better
19:32	charliekilo	ztellman, then I will continue asking if its not obvious to me and buy you a beer or two at clojure-conj (assuming you will be there)
19:33	ztellman	charliekilo: I'll be there, and keep the questions coming
20:04	ninjudd	how do i pull upstream branches into a forked repository?
20:04	ninjudd	using git
20:20	ninjudd	i think i got it. this helped http://japhr.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-upstream-branch-into-my-fork.html
20:29	technomancy	would a patch to extend clojure.contrib.generic.comparison to java.util.Date be accepted?
21:05	tomoj	anyone know of any clojure stuff which imports any common 3d model format?
21:05	tomoj	I suppose I could look for java projects
22:47	TeXnomancy	Licenser: hey, let me know if you're can help with merging the lein-search plugin into leiningen or if you'd like me to do it
22:51	TeXnomancy	actually, gotta go; maybe take it to a mailing list thread
23:13	bhenry	what's the idiomatic way to format a date object?
23:16	hiredman	with style
23:24	bhenry	hiredman: perhaps you can guide me towards style away from this
23:24	bhenry	(defn display-date [d]
23:24	bhenry	"takes a db date and turns it into a format easily entered/read"
23:24	bhenry	(str-join " " [(str-join "-" (map pad-to-2
23:24	bhenry	[(+ 1900 (.getYear d))
23:24	bhenry	(+ 1 (.getMonth d))
23:24	bhenry	(.getDate d)]))
23:24	bhenry	(str-join ":" (map pad-to-2
23:24	bhenry	[(.getHours d)
23:24	bhenry	(.getMinutes d)
23:24	bhenry	(.getSeconds d)]))]))
23:24	KirinDave	Dude.
23:25	KirinDave	Please. Please. Please use gist.
23:25	bhenry	it's not that long man : P https://gist.github.com/0339a85497a2076275e1
23:26	hiredman	~google simpledataformat
23:26	clojurebot	First, out of 37000 results is:
23:26	clojurebot	SimpleDateFormat (Java 2 Platform SE v1.4.2)
23:26	clojurebot	http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/text/SimpleDateFormat.html