#clojure – 2010-09-30

2010-09-30

00:00	lambdalion	Well, more and more I have been thinking about scheme as a sort of assembly language...
00:00	lambdalion	so I suppose you could ask "if you are going to translate to assembler why not just write assembler?"
00:03	lambdalion	And the answer would be "I find it more congenial to write in X, and it can be translated to Y without much loss."
00:06	sproust`	lambdalion: Scheme isn't as basic as you present it IMHO. Look at Racket, lots of nice libraries. Zero startup time either. Just my opinion though.
00:06	lambdalion	Hmm- I think you might have misunderstood me a bit...
00:08	lambdalion	I was just saying that the core of scheme is a set of primitives that work well as a language to translate to...
00:09	lambdalion	but people might still prefer to program in something not scheme...
00:11	lambdalion	anyway, I've been using drscheme to teach people things since long before someone decided that changing the name to racket would help. I like scheme tolerably well.
00:26	amalloy	they renamed drscheme to racket? i remember i dropped my AI class in college because all the parens in scheme scared me
00:26	amalloy	funny how times change
00:27	KirinDave	Feels so good to be doing clojure full time.
00:29	hiredman	mmmm
01:04	dmead	hi channel. can anyone point me to some tools that let you inspect clojure code?
01:04	dmead	i want to look at clojure ASTs
01:04	KirinDave	What do you mean?
01:04	KirinDave	(this (is an (AST)))
01:04	KirinDave	(for real, yo. It's sort of the point of sexprs) :)
01:04	dmead	;)
01:05	dmead	still, clojure has to have some sort of introspection tools?
01:05	dmead	besides macros?
01:05	KirinDave	Not sure what you're trying to do.
01:08	amalloy	i think he might be looking for something like "i wonder what clojure does when i (let) something with destructuring?"
01:09	amalloy	even if you expand all the macros there's a bit of magic going on at the java level that you can't see in clojure code, as far as i know
01:10	andyfingerhut	dmead: Do you want to see the Java byte codes produced? Or something before that point in time?
01:15	dmead	i want to see the syntactic structure used right before bytecode generation
01:15	dmead	andyfingerhut, ping, etc
01:15	andyfingerhut	You can use (macroexpand '(defn [...] ...)) to see how macros are expanded, if there are any in a piece of code.
01:16	dmead	eh. not really
01:16	dmead	i really want to see how the compiler represents s-expressions
01:16	dmead	how it's stored, etc
01:16	andyfingerhut	It represents them with Cons cells for lists and vector for things in []
01:16	andyfingerhut	I believe.
01:17	dmead	like in haskell, the language is defined in types that reflect the language spec
01:17	dmead	ah
01:17	andyfingerhut	Then some compiler code written in Java walks those data structures and emits Java byte code.
01:18	lambdahelpya_	You should just read the java bits of clojure then... but they are pretty arbitrary. They would be different on a different platform.
01:18	KirinDave	Hopefully in the next year we'll see the compiler get written almost fully in clojure.
01:18	lambdahelpya_	If clojure in clojure eventuates...
01:19	andyfingerhut	But even when the compiler is written in Clojure, the source code, before and after macro expansion, will be represented as lists and vectors (and hashes, too, I suppose).
01:20	hiredman	,(type ())
01:20	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList$EmptyList
01:20	hiredman	,(type '(+ 1 2))
01:20	clojurebot	clojure.lang.PersistentList
01:22	andyfingerhut	There are clojure.lang.Cons objects used to represent PersistentList's, which you can see a count of with a tool like jmap that inspects all objects in a JVM's memory
01:31	yayitswei	is there a non-threaded version of clojure.contrib.http.agent?
02:33	LauJensen	Good morning all
03:01	zmila	re
03:20	tobiasraeder	hi :)
03:30	tobiasraeder	if there any way if i have an object representing the class (for an interface for example) to get the myinterface.class to pass it to a java function?
03:31	raek	,(class 1) ; like this?
03:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Integer
03:31	raek	,(class (class 1))
03:31	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
03:32	tobiasraeder	if i call it on the symbol storing the interface i get java.lang.Class
03:32	tobiasraeder	what i really need is the equivalent of myinterface.class
03:32	raek	can you just use the class name?
03:32	tobiasraeder	but i dont know how for example:
03:33	tobiasraeder	,(definterface testinterface (^Void doStuff[]))
03:33	clojurebot	java.lang.RuntimeException: java.lang.IllegalStateException: Var null/null is unbound.
03:33	raek	then testinterface should return the class object, I think
03:33	tobiasraeder	ah alright
03:33	tobiasraeder	ill try that
03:34	ashleyw	Hi, I'm a newbie to clojure/lisp; could somebody help me with why this isn't working: (let [a (atom 1)] (swap! a 2)) — from what I can understand from the docs, swap! changes the value of the first atom arg to the second arg, but it doesn't seem to work that way?
03:34	LauJensen	ashleyw: (swap! a inc) or (reset! a 2)
03:34	LauJensen	swap takes a fn, reset a value
03:36	raek	if two concurrent threads try to update the atom at the same time, one of them might have to try again, since the value that was passed to the function no longer is the current one
03:36	amalloy	ashleyw: LauJensen's suggestions are great and are often right; i just want to mention you could also use (constantly):
03:36	amalloy	,(let [a (atom 1)] (swap! a (constantly 2)))
03:36	clojurebot	2
03:36	ashleyw	LauJensen: Oh I see, thanks!
03:37	raek	...if one of them is done first
03:38	raek	thread A reads \| thread B reads \| both calculate next value \| thread A writes \| thread B wri... oops! already changed. thread B reads \| thread B calculates next value \| thread B writes
03:39	raek	reset! is, as the name suggests, mostly used when resetting someting to a known state, no matter what it was before
03:40	LauJensen	amalloy: Thats not idiomatic in my oppinion, if you have a value, use reset
03:40	raek	the point is: don't read a value with @ and then reset! the atom to some new value based on it, because then all the atomic goodies will be gone
03:41	ashleyw	So what's the most conventional way, reset! or constantly?
03:41	amalloy	reset!, but really neither :P
03:41	LauJensen	ashleyw: Lets say your atom is a counter, all you care about is getting the order right, then use swap! a inc
03:42	amalloy	ashleyw: ie, if you absolutely must set it to some value x regardless of what is happening elsewhere in the program, you should use reset!...but in practice that rarely happens; you want to compute a new value based on the old one, which is what swap! does
03:48	ashleyw	Okay thanks. Clojure/lisp is very weird, but I haven't had this much fun learning a new language in a loong time :)
03:49	raek	:-)
03:49	LauJensen	ashleyw: If you're just starting out, you could check out project euler. The first 50 or so can really help show you the ropes of Clojure
03:52	ashleyw	oh I forgot about project euler....I'll have a go now, thanks :)
04:23	tobiasraeder	Does anyone have a decent knowledge about clojure using swank, class loaders used in an imported jar and java.lang.relfect.Proxy?
04:23	clojurebot	add-classpath is Fraught with Peril!
05:57	joubert	Hi, what is the purpose/effect of {:rebind true} metadata on a defn?/
06:03	joubert	nm
06:04	jjido	Clojure has no letrec right?
06:05	AWizzArd	jjido: correct
06:08	jjido	AWizzArd: thanks. I used let + assoc
06:09	AWizzArd	jjido: yes, this is good. If you happen to need a letrec you can just macro up your own.
06:21	LauJensen	AWizzArd: I've sent Das Keyboard back to Germany - I simply couldn't get used to it
06:30	AWizzArd	LauJensen: Ah okay. At least you tried it.
06:31	LauJensen	Yea. And it made me appreciate my Edge a lot more than I did before, so not a bad experience
06:54	jjido	do records have a "magical parent record" which accessors are applied to if they don't yield a result? eg. (:foo x) returns (:foo (:magical-field x))
06:54	AWizzArd	Most likely not, but I am not sure that I understand what you need.
06:58	jjido	AWizzArd: my solution at the moment is to (merge) two records but I think that gets me a plain hash map, not a new record. If I had the magical parent record I could use that instead. It is to implement some kind of implementation inheritance.
06:59	hoeck	jjido: if the first arg to merge is a record, then it returns a record too
06:59	jjido	hoeck: really that is perfect then
06:59	jjido	:)
07:02	esj	LauJensen: I was tickled to discover you use a funny keyboard. In the manner of your extremist views on best tools, I learnt the Dvorak keyboard about 5 years back, and have been using it since.
07:03	LauJensen	esj: Still happy?
07:09	esj	oh yeah
07:12	tobiasraeder	is there a way to add variables to proxied interface implementations?
08:22	tobiasraeder	Is it possible to change the values of a type in the implemented protocol functions for deftype?
08:25	raek	tobiasraeder: what do you mean by "value of a type"?
08:28	jjido	,System/out
08:28	clojurebot	#<PrintStream java.io.PrintStream@168b59a>
08:28	tobiasraeder	@raek if i deftype mytype that implements an interface which got getName and setName [name] and in the implementations i would like to the set :name "value" of the defined type
08:28	tobiasraeder	which is a pretty oo approach i guess
08:30	jjido	,(do (defrecord foo [bar wombat]) (print-map (new foo 1 5)))
08:30	clojurebot	DENIED
08:30	raek	iirc, deftype defines immutable types
08:31	jjido	Raek: not sure, the doc suggests you can write your mutators
08:31	raek	I think the docs mentions a way to call the construcor
08:32	raek	to create a new instance
08:32	tobiasraeder	mhm
08:32	raek	hrm, defrecord is always immutable, at least
08:33	tobiasraeder	i need this for some kinda weird interop stuff
08:33	tobiasraeder	is there a way to define variables with proxy which can be set afterwards? (an atom, or something of that type, needs to be mutable i think)
08:34	hoeck	tobiasraeder: (deftype Foo [^:unsynchronized-mutable a]) will create a type with a single private mutable field
08:34	raek	i recall reading something about mutable fields
08:34	jjido	can you get the list of fields back from defrecord or from a record?
08:34	raek	you can always use an atom
08:34	hoeck	tobiasraeder: using an interface like you suggested lets you alter the field
08:35	tobiasraeder	@hoeck alright, that sounds like a good way for me to do that i guess
08:35	hoeck	or use a plain record and an atom/ref inside
08:35	tobiasraeder	the atom/ref is scoped inside the record then, right?
08:35	hoeck	tobiasraeder: usually this is only useful if you are going to implement some low-level datastructure
08:36	jjido	(keys myrecord) doesn't work
08:36	hoeck	tobiasraeder: yes, and accessible via (:key the-record) or the get/valAt methods
08:36	tobiasraeder	i need an object that implements an interface of getters and setters and stores the state interally
08:36	tobiasraeder	@hoeck that sounds really like what i am looking for :)
08:37	tobiasraeder	internally*
08:37	hoeck	just make shure you construct you record with the appropriate fields set to an atom
08:37	hoeck	(MyRecord. (atom 0))
08:38	hoeck	are you implementing the iface or do you want to provide sth to a java consumer??
08:38	tobiasraeder	implementing the interface so the java part can use the interface functions to set/get state
08:40	hoeck	so if you don't care that the record carries the state in a public field, use a record
08:41	tobiasraeder	yeah i dont mind
08:41	hoeck	thats the easiest and threadsafe way to do it
08:42	tobiasraeder	that is the [^:unsynchronized-mutable a] version, right?
08:42	hoeck	using :volatile-mutable or :unsynchronized-mutable requires more thinking about threading issues
08:42	hoeck	no, I meant the easiest being the defrecord + atom way
08:44	tobiasraeder	@hoeck so if i create the record with (MyRecord (atom 0) (atom 0) (atom 0)) howwould i set one of those values inside the implementation of the interface?
08:45	jjido	,(map (seq {:a 1 :b 3}) key)
08:45	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$key
08:46	hoeck	tobiasraeder: http://gist.github.com/604507
08:46	tobiasraeder	@hoeck thank you very much.
08:46	raek	tobiasraeder: with 'reset!' (also, not all irc clients highlight when there is a @ before the nick)
08:47	jjido	,(doseq (seq {:a 1 :b 3}) key)
08:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: doseq requires a vector for its binding
08:47	sexpbot	@Raynes
08:47	Raynes	Mine does.
08:48	Raynes	I don't think I've ever used a client that doesn't highlight any sentence with my nickname or highlight key in it, despite it's prefix and postfix.
08:48	raek	jjido: use dorun or doall to force a seq
08:48	hoeck	tobiasraeder: instead of having more than one methods I would rather use a hashmap in one single atom
08:49	jjido	,(doall (seq {:a 1 :b 3}) key)
08:49	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.core$key
08:49	hoeck	tobiasraeder: and the IMutable must be declared with definterface or defprotocol but I guess you got that already
08:49	raek	ah, misunderstood the intentions
08:49	raek	map takrd thr fn first
08:51	jjido	,(map key (seq {:a 1 :b 3}))
08:51	clojurebot	(:a :b)
08:51	jjido	Raek: does it work on a record?
08:51	raek	seq? yes
08:52	raek	seq is called my map automatically by map
08:52	raek	so you can leave it out
08:56	jjido	I want to do (apply record-name. (map val myrecord)). It does not work obviously.
08:56	raek	constructors are special syntax and not functions
08:56	raek	so
08:57	jjido	I need a macro?
08:57	cemerick	no, a factory function will do just fine
08:57	raek	#(record-name. %)
08:57	cemerick	jjido: this might be of interest, though it's not exactly what you're after right now http://cemerick.com/2010/08/02/defrecord-slot-defaults/
08:58	dnolen	jjido: factory fns for records and types did not make it into 1.2. Just provide your own factory fn. It's also removes the need for users to have to import the class.
08:58	raek	#(record-name. %&) ; even
09:02	chouser	raek: that last one will pass in a seq, not multiple args
09:03	chouser	dnolen's advice is sound
09:09	LauJensen	Morning chouser
09:16	chouser	good morning
09:20	fogus_	good morning fine sir
09:25	sproust`	Good morning.
09:25	sproust`	What is the idiomatic way to join components of a path?
09:26	sproust`	(clojure.lang.java/file) "seems" to work file; grepping for path.separator yields something else.
09:26	sproust`	s/file/fine
09:37	@rhickey	so, I'm failing to see how completely self-contained messages and responses can handle this:
09:37	@rhickey	(do (prn "what is your name?") (println "Hi " (read)))
09:37	@rhickey	in the remote repl
09:38	@rhickey	self-contained messages seem to be dominated by a desire to avoid side channels, but it seems to me that conversations between the IDE and the repl host are in fact side conversations
09:40	@rhickey	since executing the above starts a multi-message conversation that can't be interleaved
09:41	cemerick	rhickey: exactly why I (mostly) punted on in
09:41	@rhickey	ah
09:42	cemerick	(read) in particular is tied to the notion of an attached terminal, at least conceptually
09:42	@rhickey	I can also see difficulty for people sitting between some stream input and a whole-message interface in trying to delimit messages
09:42	cemerick	Also why I (fully) punted on System/out and System/err, and out and err w.r.t. sends and such.
09:43	cemerick	That's a client UI issue IMO.
09:44	@rhickey	I think that makes it harder for some clients
09:44	cemerick	really? Ctrl+enter for "send"...
09:44	@rhickey	if they take input from a true stream, what are they going to have to do, call read?
09:45	@rhickey	cemerick: you are imagining a wholly owned client
09:45	cemerick	"wholly owned"?
09:45	@rhickey	also, if you forget a closing paren and push ctrl-enter?
09:45	@rhickey	can you type another paren?
09:45	cemerick	Immediate failure, and an :error response msg back. shrug
09:46	@rhickey	cemerick: the repl client is the UI component
09:46	@rhickey	== wholly owned
09:46	@rhickey	but might not be the case
09:46	@rhickey	source-of-input -> repl-client -> ...
09:46	@rhickey	where source of input is a true stream
09:47	cemerick	I rejected streams entirely from the start.
09:47	@rhickey	obviously a programmatic use of a message interface can send fully formed commands only
09:47	@rhickey	but restricting the API to that seems limiting
09:47	@rhickey	again, I think to avoid side channels, is that it?
09:48	cemerick	that, and one has to assume that there's more than one client connected to the same environment, so there's no way to properly distinguish out, err, System/out, System/err
09:49	@rhickey	cemerick: depends on how you define environment
09:49	cemerick	single clojure process IMO
09:49	@rhickey	so, again, could be multiple connections rather than multiplexed
09:49	cemerick	I think the terminal has to be considered the edge case, rather than the driving consideration.
09:49	cemerick	(as a concept, that is)
09:49	@rhickey	a single clojure process can have more than one out etc
09:49	sproust`	Am I missing something, or I can't find any function in core/contrib to get/strip file extensions?
09:50	cemerick	well, every thread can have a different out, which is sorta my point
09:51	@rhickey	cemerick: I don't see it, that means you can properly distinguish
09:51	cemerick	between output generated by different client connections, you mean?
09:51	@rhickey	cemerick: yres
09:52	@rhickey	yes
09:52	@rhickey	human->environment, one connection, IDE->environment -> another connection
09:52	cemerick	Perhaps I'm just not clever enough. Output associated with arbitrary sends, futures, (.start (Thread. fooey)) can be traced back?
09:53	@rhickey	cemerick: bind out in the future
09:53	@rhickey	to a separate pipe
09:53	LauJensen	,(last (re-find #"(.*)\.\w{3}" "test.xml"))
09:53	clojurebot	"test"
09:53	LauJensen	sproust`: will that work?
09:55	sproust`	Lau: Sure, or using .lastIndexOf, just surprised there isn't a stdlib function to do that. Very common operation. Maybe I should submit one?
09:55	cemerick	Certainly, tooling would be working over a different connection than a human. The "bind out in the future" notion is something I hadn't considered, though that doesn't have anything to do with in of course.
09:55	@rhickey	cemerick: same thing with in
09:55	cemerick	rhickey: I guess I see (read) as a red herring.
09:55	@rhickey	it seems the current design is dominated by multiplexing
09:55	LauJensen	sproust`: Oh yea forget about lastIndexOf, thats much better
09:56	LauJensen	sproust`: dunno where it would fit in contrib, but go have a look :)
09:56	@rhickey	cemerick: perhaps, but it's part of a family of things that are difficult as is
09:57	@rhickey	certainly (do (prn "what is your name?") (println "Hi " (read))) works at the current repl, and won't in an atomic message transaction design
09:57	sproust`	,(defn split-ext [filename] (let [index (.lastIndexOf filename ".")] (map join (split-at index filename))))
09:57	clojurebot	DENIED
09:57	cemerick	which I've no problem with shrug I know others disagree.
09:58	@rhickey	cemerick: that's not to say that supporting both means losing the request response pairing, I think that is doable
09:58	LauJensen	sproust`: more like (let [s "text.xml"] (.substring s 0 (.lastIndexOf s ".")))
09:58	cemerick	rhickey: my basis is the enclojure repl, where you've got out and err in a different panel entirely, piped from the console -- and when connected remotely, you just lose System/out and other threads' out entirely. Same with swank/SLIME afaik.
09:59	@rhickey	cemerick: I'm not disagreeing with that, and helped with the enclojure repl
09:59	cemerick	Not that that's an ideal or even a local maxima, BTW.
09:59	@rhickey	System/out can't be salvaged except as a global feed
10:00	@rhickey	I'm focusing more on the message-transaction thing
10:01	@rhickey	if conversations happened over different connections, ins and outs could be kept straight
10:01	@rhickey	human + ide = 2 conversations
10:01	cemerick	sure, that's a given
10:02	sproust`	LauJensen: this is what would be useful to me: http://gist.github.com/604609
10:02	cemerick	my question is: is every send and future, etc going to keep the lineage of out?
10:02	@rhickey	cemerick: and 2 connections?
10:02	cemerick	and 2 connections what?
10:02	@rhickey	and therefor 2 connections
10:02	@rhickey	one for each
10:03	sproust`	Lau: feel free to paste into appropriate lib.
10:03	LauJensen	sproust`: You should start by posting it on the ML
10:03	drewr	sproust`: I wrote this for joining paths together (c.j.io/file requires each component know whether its relative or absolute) http://gist.github.com/604610
10:03	cemerick	right, I mean on a per-connection basis -- the lineage of out would need to be threaded through every send, future, and (Thread.).
10:03	@rhickey	cemerick: I'm trying to understand the point you were making here, that you pointed to in your design doc:
10:03	@rhickey	http://groups.google.com/group/enclojure/browse_frm/thread/dcea0e94d198f44e
10:04	cemerick	And if it is, would that only be in this environment, or in Clojure generally.
10:04	sproust`	drewr: thx. Shouldn't you use as-file instead of File. directly?
10:05	@rhickey	cemerick: I disagree about needing to thread it - if people are sending off futures etc without establishing out binding explicitly they get nopthing useful, same as now. If they are relying on the root binding their code is broken
10:05	cemerick	rhickey: That thread was about a particular design flaw in the enclojure repl, which was in any case entirely streams-based.
10:06	cemerick	rhickey: In that case re: threading of out, it seems we're in violent agreement. :-)
10:06	@rhickey	cemerick: I understand, but as I move away from the atomic message I don't want to reintroduce the flaw
10:06	cemerick	(barring the inevitable IRC misunderstandings)
10:07	@rhickey	so, a connection gets its own in and out, and if it properly conveys them, that will work fine. That leaves me wondering about the need for atomic complete message
10:07	cemerick	rhickey: so by side channel, you mean establishing full-on streaming for out and friends per-connection?
10:07	@rhickey	cemerick: right
10:08	@rhickey	a single connection's ins and outs need only one physical connection
10:08	cemerick	Totally fine by me. My complaint in that thread was that I was having to pluck result values from out, which was being chunked separately from each send's response.
10:08	cemerick	s/separately/off cadence
10:08	drewr	sproust`: no, that causes the problems I mentioned
10:09	@rhickey	cemerick: that can and still needs to happen, as someone can send a command that launches a thread that prints to out for another hour
10:09	@rhickey	saying that a response includes all output associated with the command is impossible
10:10	cemerick	well, result values have to be delineated in some reasonable fashion
10:10	@rhickey	so, I think you need to distinguish writes to out by the repl engine itself
10:10	@rhickey	cemerick: results are the easiest thing
10:10	cemerick	Right, which was the :value slot in nrepl's response messages.
10:10	@rhickey	since the repl is holding the return from eval
10:11	@rhickey	your talking about if the repl printed exception trace or something, not lining up?
10:11	@rhickey	you're
10:13	cemerick	no - the value provided to c.m/repl's :print
10:13	@rhickey	cemerick: what's the distinction between "result values" and "send's response" above?
10:14	cemerick	repl-printed stack traces just get dumped to err
10:15	avbranco	quit
10:16	cemerick	rhickey: in the enclojure regime, reads could not be paired with sends
10:17	cemerick	"result value" to me means, if I send "(println 5) 0", I get back readable values of "nil" and "0"
10:17	@rhickey	ok
10:17	cemerick	Tooling would generally be sending only one expr at a time, but the above is necessary to get the highlighting chouser suggested
10:18	cemerick	er, scratch "readable" above
10:18	cemerick	Tooling obviously needs to be sending stuff that will result in something readable.
10:18	cemerick	interactive users, no so much
10:18	@rhickey	you are saying enclojure gave you nil 5 0?
10:18	sproust`	drewr: your definition is a bit unusual; if I have an absolute path I would want the latest argument to take over the root again.
10:19	cemerick	rhickey: I'm saying that a single send of "(println 5) 1000" could result in enclojure-repl sending back multiple chunks, e.g. "5\n100" and "0\n"
10:20	@rhickey	ah
10:20	cemerick	they were 1K chunks, but when tooling is getting a full accounting of all vars defined in the env, that's no good.
10:23	drewr	sproust`: I don't, but ymmv
10:23	drewr	ym apparently does v :-)
10:24	@rhickey	cemerick: but you shouldn't care if out and err come back that way
10:24	sproust`	drewr: not so much my opinion, I think it's unusual re. other langs. To be verified.
10:24	@rhickey	cemerick: just need whole results
10:24	cemerick	rhickey: I don't with nREPL, because it returns values discretely. enclojure-repl was entirely stream-based, so that's what I was faced with.
10:25	sproust`	drewr: CPython's: >>> join("/foo", "///bar", "/baz///") ->>. '/baz///'
10:25	sproust`
10:25	cemerick	rhickey: I encourage you to disregard that gg thread. enclojure-repl had a variety of design issues that I think are safely settled.
10:26	cemerick	as long as expression results are available discretely from out et al., all's good
10:26	cemerick	s/from/separate from
10:26	@rhickey	I am contending a design that respects the inherent streamy-ness of out and err needs to arbitrarily chunk their output into multiple messages, but need not do so with the eval result
10:26	cemerick	again, entirely agree
10:27	cemerick	I never considered side channels for out et al. at all.
10:28	sproust`	It would be nice to have (re-quote) and (re-escape) for regexps (like Emacs).
10:28	@rhickey	the nrepl design supports timeouts, but they can't really be made to work
10:28	leafw	rhickey: what IDE do you use? Or just a plain editor? I have always struggled to find an IDE without deep downsides.
10:29	@rhickey	i.e. you spin off a future per request, but timing out on the future doesn't necessarily stop it, nr does interruption, for e.g. an infinite loop
10:29	leafw	I am just merely curious, as to in what way is clojure itself being developed.
10:30	@rhickey	so, people may feel better seeing the prompt return, but could have left something churning forever
10:30	cemerick	rhickey: no, the timeout doesn't stop it, but an interrupt (which is automatically sent on a timeout now, I think) does stop infinite loops, e.g. (apply + (iterate inc)) was my testcase for that
10:32	LauJensen	$mail hugod I notified the Arch team about the bug in Tomcat and its already been fixed :P
10:32	sexpbot	Message saved.
10:34	jfields	is there any easy way to convert {:a {:b {:c 1}}} to [[:a :b :c] 1] or {[:a :b :c] 1}
10:36	@rhickey	cemerick: I think if the code never enters an interruptable API call it will not be stopped
10:37	cemerick	rhickey: I'm starting to think you're right -- my interrupt of (loop [] (recur)) hasn't been respected yet :-(
10:37	cemerick	shit
10:37	@rhickey	http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/api/java/lang/Thread.html#interrupt()
10:40	cemerick	well, I'm officially a dope
10:41	@rhickey	no, it's a subtlety they don't call out, because the need is so great but it is not safely possible to do generally
10:41	@rhickey	that's not to say that timeouts aren't interesting at the API level, but given what they can and can't do, the semantics need to be clear.
10:43	@rhickey	http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.5.0/docs/guide/misc/threadPrimitiveDeprecation.html
10:44	@rhickey	"Unfortunately, there really isn't any technique that works in general. It should be noted that in all situations where a waiting thread doesn't respond to Thread.interrupt, it wouldn't respond to Thread.stop either. Such cases include deliberate denial-of-service attacks, and I/O operations for which thread.stop and thread.interrupt do not work properly."
10:45	cemerick	Funnily enough, I coded a Java REPL back ~2000 that used .stop for interrupts. Worked more than Future.cancel does, but obviously not advisable.
10:45	cemerick	Can't believe I forgot about that.
10:45	LauJensen	cemerick: age...
10:45	cemerick	Yup, I'm an old codger now.
10:45	zoldar	jfields, (map #(if (map? %) (first (keys %)) %) (tree-seq map? vals {:a {:b {:c 1}}})) that's the closest I could get...
10:51	tobiasraeder	someone mentioned to me earlier that there was a IMutable interface and it could be used for defrecord. I can find any definition of IMutable tho. Anyone can help me on that? :/
10:52	@rhickey	tobiasraeder: records are immutable
10:52	jfields	zoldar, thanks
10:53	tobiasraeder	@rhickey gave me that gist and said it should work http://gist.github.com/604507
10:53	sproust`	re. thread.interrupt() : this is a platform limitation IINM, same goes with C threads. You can't forcibly interrupt them; Java's thread cancellation is probably built as a cooperative mechanism, which includes interrupt points at choice system calls.
10:53	@rhickey	tobiasraeder: I don't know what that is
10:54	tobiasraeder	@rhickey alright :) thanks for the input on that
10:54	tobiasraeder	@rhickey is there any way to implement an interface (using proxy, defrecord, deftype etc) and store mutable data in/attached to that object?
10:54	@rhickey	tobiasraeder: someone else will have to help you with that
10:55	tobiasraeder	@rhickey alright :)
10:55	cemerick	tobiasraeder: see the -mutable field metadata for deftype and defrecord http://richhickey.github.com/clojure/clojure.core-api.html#clojure.core/deftype
10:56	cemerick	tobiasraeder: If you hose yourself b/c your records have mutable fields though, you're on your own :-P
10:56	tobiasraeder	@cemerick ill give it a try. thank you
11:01	@rhickey	cemerick: note that's only for deftype, not defrecord
11:02	cemerick	rhickey: Thanks for the clarification.
11:02	cemerick	tobiasraeder: see ^^
11:03	cemerick	that's what I get for relying upon dim memories of irc design discussions :-)
11:03	tobiasraeder	hehe
11:03	tobiasraeder	thanks for pointing it out.
11:04	tobiasraeder	one more question if i use defrecord/type to implement functions they need atleast one parameter for "this"
11:04	tobiasraeder	does the function in the java interface need atleast 1 parameter aswell?
11:05	cemerick	"to implement functions"?
11:05	cemerick	(fn [a] a) <-- a function
11:05	cemerick	;-)
11:12	djpowell	Thread interruption in java is pretty nasty btw, cause catching InterruptedException resets the interrupted flag. So any code that does 'catch (Exception e)' unwittingly breaks interruption, and Java's checked exceptions make not using 'catch (Exception e)' very tedious
11:14	@rhickey	djpowell: yeah :(
11:20	djpowell	I wanted to use it as a cancellation mechanism, but my jdbc driver was swallowing interrupted - there was a patch for that, but the thing is so fragile that I decided to backup interrupted with my own secondary flag, and switched to using .wait(timeout) in a loop, and checking my secondary flag in the loop.
11:21	djpowell	the need to wrap checked exceptions into runtime exceptions makes it even harder to tell if someone has swallowed your interrupt. pesky checked exceptions...
11:48	djpowell	as people are talking about repls, i'll take the opportunity to advertise http://github.com/djpowell/liverepl - lets you hack a clojure repl into any running java or clojure process. quite handy to hack one or more repls into an existing clojure repl process, giving you a single process with multiple repls - handy for demoing concurrecy stuff
11:53	AWizzArd	rhickey: I discovered that (defrecord Foo [size]) can be problematic when you want to use the dot-accessor: (let [f (Foo. 100)] [(:size f) (.size f)]) ==> [100 1]
11:54	cemerick	yuck, I thought that was fixed a long while ago.
11:56	@rhickey	what is your expectation?
11:56	@rhickey	you have a class with a method and a field called size
11:56	cemerick	oh, nm, I transposed the results with the expressions
11:57	cemerick	thought (:size f) was returning 1
11:57	@rhickey	cemerick: right, that was fixed
11:57	cemerick	whew :-)
11:57	sempah	good evening
11:57	sempah	how can I iterate over the seq? -> (defn addN [& x] (+ x x))
11:58	AWizzArd	Is there another syntax for accessing fields, other than (.myField x) or (:myField x)?
11:58	sempah	ohh and first @ rhickey: thx for the language ;)
11:58	AWizzArd	sempah: in your case x is a list of the arguments. (addN 10 20 30) means that x = (10 20 30). You could say (defn addN [& x] (reduce + x))
11:59	sempah	gracias ;)
12:05	AWizzArd	rhickey: maybe there can be a warning when adding a field that has the same name as one of the methods?
12:07	@rhickey	AWizzArd: if you are using records you should be using :x
12:09	AWizzArd	rhickey: in tight loops the dot-accessor + type-hint is 2.3 times faster.
12:10	sproust`	Hmmm, I have a question about dymamic variables. I have a (binding) clause in my main module, which binds 'emit to a function used for reporting progress. In another module, I use emit; when I evaluate from scratch, I get an error about emit not being available. I cannot import it from the main namespace, b/c that would created a circular dependency. I could simply shove a (declare emit) in another module... is there a better way out?
12:11	AWizzArd	Well, in most cases it is not a problem of course. Today it was the first time that I stumbled upon this, when benchmarking my Clojure serializer, which is not too far from Java speeds btw.
12:11	sproust`	s/created/create/
12:11	AWizzArd	sproust`: declare seems to be good here
12:12	AWizzArd	You tell the compiler and other readers there there is indeed such a thing.
12:14	sproust`	AWizzard: thx. I thought there might be a better way.
12:15	hiredman	AWizzArd: I believe :x uses a method cache with a type hint that hotspot should eventually inline away
12:23	sproust`	I'm invoking Clojure from the cmdline for my final program. Startup delay is insane (> 10 seconds). Is there a way to have clojure trace/report what it is doing (e.g. "loading library bla"), so I can view progress?
12:23	@rhickey	cemerick: all the tools guys bought into the command-server (i.e. no in) model?
12:28	dnolen	sproust: did you AOT?
12:28	sproust`	dnolen: Nope. My point is not to bitch about startup time (sorry), but rather to find out if there is a way to trace loading.
12:29	chouser	sproust`: interesting question, never tried.
12:29	dnolen	sproust: ahead-of-time compile, that improves load time significantly. Clojure is launching, compiling your program, then running. I'd expect that to be slow.
12:29	chouser	might be able to instrument 'require' or something
12:30	hiredman	you can instrument load pretty easily
12:30	sproust`	hiredman: I see.
12:30	sproust`	Oh, Clojure doesn't have something like advice, does it?
12:30	sproust`	I meant, auxiliary methods.
12:31	sproust`	hiredman/dnolen: Thx.
12:31	hiredman	http://github.com/technomancy/robert-hooke
12:33	sproust`	Awesome.
12:34	chouser	so did we again lose the ability to build contrib against a local clojure.jar?
12:34	@rhickey	chouser: I was wondering the same just yesterday
12:35	chouser	the instructions in the README are certainly gone again
12:36	chouser	Are you physically near the Clojure/core team most days?
12:37	@rhickey	chouser: no
12:37	chouser	so no sticking your head out the office door and yelling, "Stu!!!"
12:37	@rhickey	this question has been asked, but not yet answered
12:37	cemerick	rhickey: all but ninjudd, I think, but cake and lein are different beasts, I'd say
12:38	chouser	have you tried the old instructions?
12:38	@rhickey	cemerick: what's cake?
12:38	cemerick	rhickey: swank and enclojure-repl having the same limitation, etc
12:38	cemerick	rhickey: a lein-compatible build tool that uses a persistent jvm for invocations, repls, etc
12:38	cemerick	http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
12:38	chouser	c.c.Condition isn't building for me from contrib master. bleh.
12:39	AWizzArd	hiredman: I see.
12:39	@rhickey	cemerick: hrm, I don't see why any such programmatic interface wouldn't be happy with messages
12:39	@rhickey	cemerick: inbound
12:40	cemerick	rhickey: `cake repl` aims to look and feel just like c.m/repl on a bare console, AFAIK
12:40	hiredman	I think lein would more likely be a way to start a repl server than actually communicate with one
12:40	@rhickey	cemerick: ah
12:41	svs`	Hello. I managed to build a proper jar using lein following the advice here http://zef.me/2470/building-clojure-projects-with-leiningen but when I build my little non-trivial project I get Exception in thread "main" java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: planet
12:41	cemerick	hiredman: no reason why the result of all this shouldn't allow you to say `somecmd --remote localhost:58943` or whatever
12:41	cemerick	(as well as start repl servers :-))
12:41	cemerick	that's actually exactly what nrepl's main does, except it always defaults to a new server started on localhost
12:41	technomancy	yeah, I'm less interested in being in the client business with leiningen repls
12:43	cemerick	rhickey: ...which is why ninjudd and I have bumped heads. That should have made me think of having side-channels, but I'd been focused on only discrete msgs.
12:43	cemerick	ninjudd: :-D
12:44	chouser	rhickey: oh, s.sierra added custom clojure.jar build instructions to the contrib readme last friday.
12:44	chouser	trying them now
12:46	@rhickey	chouser: they're awful, IMO. hoops and more hoops
12:47	@rhickey	who could possibly think this is reasonable anymore?
12:47	chouser	only 40% more complex than before, which was only 40% more complex than the original...
12:47	technomancy	it works OK for people who don't build contrib for themselves
12:48	fogus_	technomancy: Hooray! We've achieved OK-ness!
12:48	technomancy	it's nice to be able to say "I want error-kit" without pulling in the combinatorics, etc
12:49	@rhickey	technomancy: I'm only speaking to the custom clojure for people like me who change clojure often and want to make sure they don't break contrib
12:49	@rhickey	they == me
12:50	cemerick	cough continuous integration cough ;-)
12:50	@rhickey	more overhead
12:50	@rhickey	used to be ant and ant
12:51	@rhickey	I don't want to integrate until I'm ready
12:51	chouser	but <x> is everywhere, it's only marginally more complex and takes care of so much for you. Custom <y> is bad.
12:52	cemerick	rhickey: if the ant build copies a clojure.jar snapshot to your local repo, then the new situation should be ant, mvn
12:52	chouser	(for [[x y] [:stomp :protocol, :maven :build-system, :tomcat :web-server] ...)
12:53	@rhickey	chouser: that analogy is broken, since there is much more to do here, much more complexity, apples and oranges, not standard apple vs custom apple
13:03	@rhickey	"2. Set a custom version number in src/clj/clojure/version.properties" - stunning
13:08	Chousuke	there could be a makefile that does all that for you ;P
13:08	Chousuke	just to bring yet another build tool into the mix!
13:11	@rhickey	Chousuke: will it remember not to check in the changed properties file for me?
13:11	Chousuke	hmmh. .gitignore?
13:11	Chousuke	or can you do that?
13:11	@rhickey	Chousuke: it's part of the project!
13:11	Chousuke	That's problematic :/
13:12	cemerick	git add -f ignored-file overrides .gitignore IIRC shrug
13:12	@rhickey	overcoming complexity rather than avoiding it - what have we come to?
13:12	@rhickey	back in the tar pit
13:13	cemerick	At the moment, there's no such thing as avoiding build complexity. One either deals with it, or redistributes it.
13:13	LauJensen	That was a good essay/paper (out of the tar pit)
13:15	@rhickey	cemerick: not distinguishing inherent and incidental complexity is the problem
13:15	cemerick	rhickey: only if you can define a closed system
13:15	cemerick	Usually, incidental complexity is forced upon you by external, often social factors.
13:19	arohner	cemerick: it's not that clean. Maven is neither purely incidental, nor purely inherent complexity. And sometimes it increases complexity
13:20	cemerick	arohner: never said it was. All these systems are flawed.
13:20	rlb	What's the best way to generate a sequence of values like this: (for [x (range ...) y (range ...)] [x y]) [final-x final-y]?
13:21	arohner	cemerick: I'm not trying to rip on maven, I'm just pointing out that there's a third option, and the distinction isn't always clean between deal, redistribute and increase complexity :-)
13:21	rlb	i.e. I'd like all the values from the for, followed by the terminal values.
13:21	arohner	rlb: concat
13:21	dmiller2718	rhickey: speaking of complexity of the build: Q1: okay to include DLR DLLs in a binary distribution of ClojureCLR? (binary distribution highly requested)
13:21	arohner	or just (for [x (range final-x + 1)]...)
13:22	arohner	err (range (inc final-x))
13:22	cemerick	arohner: I know :-) Which is the third option?
13:22	rlb	arohner: ah, concat's exactly it, thanks
13:22	arohner	cemerick: increase complexity, without dealing or redistributing
13:22	cemerick	oh, I see what you mean
13:22	arohner	cemerick: "failure is always an option"
13:23	cemerick	ha! :-D
13:23	cemerick	arohner: exactly my fundamental conclusion: http://cemerick.com/2010/09/22/wherein-i-feel-the-pain-of-being-a-generalist/
13:23	cemerick	Meanwhile, practical concerns continue to dominate.
13:25	duncanm	hola
13:26	duncanm	,(instance? clojure.lang.ISeq [])
13:26	clojurebot	false
13:26	duncanm	shouldn't that return true?
13:27	raek	no. :)
13:27	duncanm	if i want to write a method that catches vectors, what should i dispatch it on?
13:27	raek	collections are not sequences, but they can produce sequential views of themselves
13:28	duncanm	i could use clojure.lang.PersistentVector, but would that be too specific?
13:28	duncanm	(my dispatch-fn is 'class')
13:28	raek	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPeristentVector [])
13:28	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.IPeristentVector
13:28	raek	,(vector? [])
13:28	clojurebot	true
13:29	kjeldahl	,(instance? clojure.lang.IPersistentVector [])
13:29	clojurebot	true
13:29	raek	if you do it with protocols, I you can extend the protocol for IPersistentVector (i.e. any vector type)
13:29	chouser	ok, I give up. what if I want all of contrib (and its examples) on my classpath in a clojure repl?
13:30	chouser	I had hoped mvn clojure:repl in contrib would do it, but that fails.
13:30	raek	hrm, wait. multimethods can do that too
13:30	raek	they use isa? for the matching, right?
13:30	raek	(isa? clojure.lang.IpersistentVector [])
13:30	raek	,(isa? clojure.lang.IpersistentVector [])
13:30	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.lang.IpersistentVector
13:30	raek	,(isa? clojure.lang.IPersistentVector [])
13:30	clojurebot	false
13:31	raek	,(isa? (class []) clojure.lang.IPersistentVector)
13:31	clojurebot	true
13:33	duncanm	raek: isa? and instance? are different, right?
13:33	raek	conclusion: with dispatch fn 'class', you can have an implementation for IPersistentVector
13:34	raek	isa? uses instance? for class hierarchies
13:34	duncanm	,(instance? {} clojure.lang.IPersistentVector)
13:34	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentArrayMap cannot be cast to java.lang.Class
13:34	raek	you can define other kinds of hierarhies too
13:34	duncanm	right
13:34	duncanm	okay
13:35	raek	isa? is a generalized instance?, one could say. it is not structly type-based
13:35	chouser	adding clojure-maven-plugin to contrib's pom.xml doesn't seem to help.
13:35	duncanm	raek: but when i only care about classes, i can use the more specialized 'instance?' fine
13:37	raek	yes, but multimethods use isa? to find a matching dispatch value
13:38	raek	but if you do some comparison yourself, then instance? is fine
13:38	@rhickey	dmiller2718: no binaries in git, but iff the MS license allows, ok in .zip in downloads section
13:40	raek	(defmulti foo class) (defmethod foo clojure.lang.IPersistentVector [...] ...) ; should work fine, since (isa? (class []) clojure.lang.IPersistentVector) => true
13:41	LauJensen	There's a license which states you can put certain binaries in git?
13:41	@rhickey	cemerick: that rationale could be pulled out at any time in any domain to excuse things sucking - doesn't make them suck less
13:41	chouser	aaargh
13:42	@rhickey	maven seems to feel at basic principles like - pay for what you use
13:42	dmiller2718	rhickey: Okay, that also answers Q2 regarding putting libs in dev version.
13:43	dmiller2718	rhickey: MS license for DLR okay with distribution of binaries as long as basic license text is included, which I will do. Thx.
13:43	@rhickey	seems to fail
13:44	@rhickey	maven == everyone pays for what anyone might ever do
13:44	AWizzArd	(:
13:44	dysinger	:)
13:44	chouser	aaaargh
13:45	lypanov	any slimv users around?
13:46	lypanov	dysinger: y slimv vs vimclojure? happy?
13:48	dysinger	lypanov: oh I thought that was a type for "slime" (the real deal)
13:48	lypanov	heh.
13:48	cemerick	rhickey: I don't think open platforms/communities are structurally capable of sucking less in this department, as I alluded to in the post
13:48	@rhickey	cemerick: heh
13:49	arohner	cemerick: sane versioning, sane package format would help significantly
13:49	arohner	of course, replacing .jar isn't really an option
13:50	cemerick	rhickey: The fact that clojure's build.xml contains a bug-ridden slow implementation of half of maven would seem to indicate that you're already needing at least that much of it. ;-)
13:50	@rhickey	arohner: replacing jar is coming, in fact
13:51	@rhickey	cemerick: I seriously doubt it. People had a hammer and started swinging
13:52	cemerick	rhickey: Insofar as you're interested in having users on the JVM, you have to have artifacts going out in a maven-compatible way. There's those social factors again.
13:52	slyrus__	cemerick: but that build.xml doesn't require that you download 3 dozen random apache projects I've never heard of (nor want to hear of)
13:52	cemerick	slyrus__: wha?
13:52	TeXnomancy	might be nice to have access to "Maven: The Good Parts"
13:53	slyrus__	cemerick: just responding to your comment about clojure's build.xml having half of maven in it
13:53	cemerick	slyrus__: I'm saying, what are the 3 dozen random apache projects?
13:54	slyrus__	all of the random stuff in .m2, plexus-, commons-, etc...
13:54	slyrus__	perhaps I exaggerate the number
13:55	cemerick	slyrus__: do you care, if it's automated?
13:55	slyrus__	I'm annoyed by it. Perhaps I shouldn't be.
13:55	cemerick	slyrus__: If you are, you probably should be annoyed by how many files an OS update process touches or something, too. shrug
13:56	chouser	cemerick: I'm caring right now because the automation and/or my attempts to get help failed
13:57	cemerick	chouser: this is the 'use a custom build of clojure with contrib' issue?
13:57	slyrus__	cemerick: yes, we should drop this, but my point was that at least the slow, buggy half-of-maven that's in build.xml is relatively self-contained and one can easily go in and fix/improve it. fixing a whole bunch of random apache projects doesn't sound like fun.
13:57	solussd	So I've been reading The Joy of Clojure and read through the lazy quicksort algorithm- it says it is tail recursive, but cons everything together in the 'else' position of the if containing the recur- is this still tail recursion?
13:58	cemerick	slyrus__: quite certain I've never touched any part of maven or its plugins shrug
13:58	chouser	cemerick: no I gave up on running a repl in that context. I just want a clojure repl with all of contrib (including examples) on the classpath
13:58	LauJensen	cemerick: Im also not sure why its always you who have to take a beating for Maven? :)
13:58	chouser	having tried, asked here, googled, tried, and failed, I have given up on the automation
13:58	chouser	I'm now building the classpath by hand
13:58	chouser	I'll paste it when done
13:58	@rhickey	yay, classpath!
13:59	@rhickey	:)
13:59	cemerick	:-(
14:00	chouser	ok, to allow 'require' of any of the examples that will soon be checked (back) into contrib, simply start clojure so:
14:00	chouser	java -cp ../clojure/clojure.jar:modules/accumulators/src/examples/clojure/:modules/condition/src/examples/clojure:modules/datalog/src/examples/clojure:modules/miglayout/src/examples/clojure:modules/monads/src/examples/clojure:modules/probabilities/src/examples/clojure/:modules/types/src/examples/clojure/:modules/accumulators/src/main/clojure/:modules/condition/src/main/clojure/:modules/datalog/src/main/clojure/:modules/miglayout/src/main/clojure/:modules/monads/src/main/clojure/:modules/probabilities/src/main/clojure/:modules/types/src/main/clojure/:modules/def/src/main/clojure/:modules/generic/src/main/clojure/:modules/condition/target/classes:modules/except/src/main/clojure/:modules/graph/src/main/clojure/:modules/core/src/main/clojure/:modules/fcase/src/main/clojure/:modules/swing-utils/src/main/clojure/:modules/macro-utils/src/main/clojure/:modules/stream-utils/src/main/clojure/:modules/macros/src/main/clojure/ clojure.main
14:00	cemerick	chouser: I've not looked at the contrib modularization at all yet -- but if it works as I'd expect, running whatever invocation will cause a local deployment of clojure.jar followed by 'mvn' in contrib will do the trick
14:01	chouser	mvn install; mvn clojure:repl failed -- couldn't find clojure-maven-plugin
14:01	cemerick	chouser: well, that sounds like a bug
14:02	chouser	following instrustions I found on the web, I added a snippet to the contrib pom to depend on clojure-maven-plugin. after several false starts I was able to get a repl
14:02	chouser	...but examples were not included on the classpath
14:02	chouser	Since I have email here that says "Note that the "examples" source paths are only included on the classpath in test mode, which includes clojure:repl and clojure:swank." I assumed that should have worked and had no idea what to pursue next
14:03	chouser	asking here gained me nothing.
14:03	cemerick	I'm shocked to hear there's a bug somewhere ;-)
14:03	chouser	so I built that classpath, one item at a time, adding more things as deps failed until it all worked.
14:03	cemerick	I'm sure SS would pick up a thread on clojure-dev
14:06	cemerick	LauJensen: Yeah, I keep on sticking my neck out there. Masochist, I am he.
14:06	chouser	all this to restore files that were lost during a directory reorganization required by ... buh-buh-bum... maven.
14:06	cemerick	chouser: just wait until all of contrib is sharded into individual repos :-P
14:09	chouser	cemerick: can't wait
14:12	LauJensen	chouser: Why dont you just move contrib over to another build system ?
14:12	chouser	I hate build systems.
14:13	Raynes	He doesn't use build systems.
14:13	chouser	never met one that didn't drive me crazy
14:14	LauJensen	chouser: thats amazing - knowing your threshhold for crazy
14:15	chouser	it's barely the same domain, but ebuild is probably the least painful I've known well -- gentoo's build and dep tool.
14:16	cemerick	sarcasm runs thickly
14:16	cemerick	throngs plead for sweet relief soon
14:16	cemerick	in death, maven waits
14:16	Chousuke	ebuild is more like a build tool tool :P
14:17	chouser	yeah, barely the same domain. but it did involve custom commands for particular situations, user customization, dependency graph resolution, dep downloading, etc.
14:19	cemerick	man, no haiku fans? Tough crowd.
14:20	wdouglas	Sorry, it was brilliant
14:21	cemerick	shoover: well played :-)
14:21	shoover	anyone know how to set emacs clojure-mode to left-align single-semicolon comments?
14:21	shoover	cemerick: I like it now. I was too busy to count syllables
14:23	cemerick	Should've made it a cinquain.
14:23	rlb	is sequential? effectively #(instance? clojure.lang.Sequential %)?
14:24	MayDaniel	rlb: Yes.
14:24	amalloy	rlb: (source sequential?) makes it pretty clear :)
14:25	rlb	oh, right.
14:25	amalloy	cemerick: is sarcasm really two syllables? it feels like sar-ca-sm to me
14:25	cemerick	amalloy: according to OS X's dictionary... shrug
14:26	amalloy	oh funny, cause after asking i just looked it up on M-W, which thinks it's three
14:26	cemerick	I would have said sar•cas•m myself, but...
14:26	cemerick	really!
14:26	amalloy	http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sarcasm
14:26	cemerick	amalloy: no, just two there too
14:28	amalloy	oh, i see. i was looking at the part on the right
14:28	amalloy	now i have to look up what kind of crazy notation that is. IPA or something
14:28	cemerick	exactly right
14:30	raek	hrm, that is not IPA...
14:32	amalloy	yeah, i can't tell what it is either, or what they hyphens are supposed to represent if not syllable breaks
14:35	amalloy	cemerick: their pronuncuation guide says that - is used to separate syllables, and doesn't mention the little dot symbol in the thing on the left. i interpret that to mean that the thing on the left isn't a pronunciation guide, though i dunno what it actually is in that case
14:40	anonymouse89	when declaring a namespace like (ns hello (:use foo.bar)) how do I specify the refer-like :exclude :only ... ?
14:41	chouser	(:use [foo.bar :only [a b]])
14:41	anonymouse89	chouser: ah, thanks
14:42	anonymouse89	chouser: I'm using your command-line stuff btw, very helpful
14:42	chouser	anonymouse89: pretty minimal, but I'm glad it's helping
14:43	chouser	interesting that I don't think I'd be inclined add something like that to contrib today. Seems to underdeveloped for the seriousness that is contrib now.
14:43	chouser	too
14:45	anonymouse89	chouser: maybe have a look at contrib.complex-numbers :)
14:47	chouser	bleh. deftype means something else now...
14:50	alexyk	lancepantz: thanks for rolling back env name
14:51	alexyk	dnolen: thx for flowing in sync :)
14:51	lancepantz	alexyk: grrrr
14:51	lancepantz	:)
14:51	alexyk	lancepantz: is it a purr or a growl? :)
14:51	lancepantz	i unhappily gave in
14:52	alexyk	lancepantz: well, no pain, no gain :)
14:52	lancepantz	now the other thing is context
14:52	alexyk	lancepantz: what is /usr/bin/jps which cake is trying to call? My Linux setup lacks it
14:52	lancepantz	chose your battles i suppose
14:52	ninjudd	i'm thinking of renaming it alexy-context
14:52	lancepantz	a ps that only list java processes
14:53	alexyk	lancepantz: context came to me too while phishing... or fishing, I forgot what it was... :)
14:53	lancepantz	alexyk: are you using the jre instead of the jdk?
14:53	lancepantz	alexyk: do you have have jar on your path?
14:54	alexyk	lancepantz: I use prefix gentoo. I know many of you didn't ever hear about it, but ut installs sun0jdk, I have jar. Just upgraded to 1.6.0_21
14:54	alexyk	]
14:54	alexyk	perhaps I need to reveal it somehow
14:55	alexyk	I'll see...
14:55	lancepantz	yeah, it should be there
14:55	alexyk	:)
14:55	alexyk	or page dnolen out of bed
14:56	alexyk	on his cozy east coast from teh cake's west one
14:56	lancepantz	alexyk: i will happily accept any pull requests containing tests
14:57	alexyk	dnolen: YES! An epiphany: textcake! no more textmate-clojure or vice-versa agony!
14:57	alexyk	or, cakemate
14:57	dnolen	org.textcake.bundle.clojure.mode.main/alexy-context-shell-env-persistent-hash-map
14:57	lancepantz	lol
14:58	alexyk	org.textcake.bundle.clojure.mode.main/ninjudd-lancepantz-dnolen-alexy-all-agreed-context-shell-env-persistent-hash-map
14:58	abrenk	alexyk: /usr/bin/jps -> run-java-tool
14:58	alexyk	abrenk: is it a symlink?
14:59	abrenk	alexyk: yep
15:00	alexyk	abrenk: thx!
15:01	abrenk	alexyk: "ls -l /usr/bin/ \| grep run-java-tool \| wc -l" is 43 on my system
15:01	alexyk	abrenk: you mean it has 43 symlinks??
15:01	abrenk	alexyk: if you don't have all those jps, jstack, jconsole etc. symlinks our system are different somehow
15:02	alexyk	abrenk: I run prefix gentoo
15:02	alexyk	on a CentOS :)
15:02	alexyk	who installed your jps (which package)?
15:03	abrenk	alexyk: "equery belongs /usr/bin/jps" -> dev-java/java-config-2.1.10
15:03	alexyk	abrenk: ah ok
15:03	abrenk	what is prefix gentoo?
15:04	alexyk	http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gentoo-alt/prefix/
15:04	hiredman	how do you turn off validation for clojure.xml/parse
15:04	alexyk	if you're ever stuck on a box without root and can't rpm/yum, or just want portage, that's what you get. May be useful for folks, sorry if too off-topic.
15:10	lypanov	alexyk: or if you're on a mac. or windows.
15:10	alexyk	lypanov: on mac, macports rules, but yeah. I have a Portage drive image on a Mac, which is case-sensitive...
15:11	lypanov	:/
15:11	lypanov	dea
15:11	lypanov	death to macports
15:12	alexyk	lypanov: let a thousand flowers bloom :)
15:12	lypanov	but gentoo prefix did the job for a while.
15:12	alexyk	lypanov: brew is amateurish, lots of loose ends
15:12	xkb	what's brew?
15:13	lypanov	doesn't take 24 hours to install a basic pkg tho. so makes me happy.
15:13	alexyk	xkb: http://github.com/mxcl/homebrew
15:13	xkb	thnks
15:19	alexyk	lypanov: seeing you come from NL, I think it got to be strong enough :)
15:22	nickik	where can I find good CL documentation (like clojuredocs) with examples of all the functions and stuff
15:24	chouser	nickik: maybe http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_AllSym.htm
15:27	nickik	@chouser thats was what im looking for
15:27	nickik	@chouser thx
15:29	LauJensen	Amazing service we give here in #clojure :)
15:36	alexyk	LauJensen: the only missing thing is Belgian, um, Danish history :)
15:37	LauJensen	Clojure is also Lisp
15:38	alexyk	LauJensen: I meant Common one
15:38	nickik	im working threw PAIP and I implement everything in Clojure so I have to understand the CL version and find functions that are the same or implement them myself
15:39	LauJensen	alexyk: I've often wondered why you'd want a common lisp, when you can have an extraordinary one like Clojure
15:39	alexyk	LauJensen: exactly. I can't even look at CL not having [] {} and : teh right way!
15:40	nickik	i'm having a discusion about that on reddit :)
15:40	alexyk	uncommon lisp
15:40	Chousuke	Clojure has sexy expressions ;P
15:40	alexyk	nickik: are you stirring the passions of old bearded lisp types then?
15:43	nickik	@alexyk not that far in the book only working on the first real exampels
15:45	nickik	is there something like the CL member function or do I have to write it myself?
15:46	alexyk	ninjudd: are the clojars versions of protobuf and jiraph up-to-date or should I just git them?
15:46	amalloy	nickik: (some)
15:47	jjido	is it possible to create a recursive structure? Like a double-linked list
15:47	ninjudd	alexyk: protobuf, yes. jiraph, no. i am working on the 1.2 version in the deftype branch, but it isn't quite done
15:47	amalloy	,(some #{10} [2 4 8])
15:47	clojurebot	nil
15:47	amalloy	,(some #{10} [2 4 8 10])
15:47	clojurebot	10
15:47	amalloy	nickik: ^^
15:48	nickik	no member returns the rest (member 2 '(1 2 3 4)) => '(2 3 4)
15:50	shoover	do any emacs users care about indenting single-semicolon comments like the other IDEs?
15:50	shoover	here's what I had to do: http://gist.github.com/cd2f5a888aaab4f33fe9
15:51	amalloy	,(drop-while (complement #{2}) [1 2 3 4])
15:51	clojurebot	(2 3 4)
15:51	amalloy	nickik: good enough?
15:51	alexyk	ninjudd: I'm using the jiraph.tc in clojure 1.1, and have that built, now fails to work with 1.1. Is there an existing jiraph build for 1.2 at all?
15:52	alexyk	fails with 1.2 from a jar, obviously
15:52	amalloy	shoover: i haven't been using emacs for long, but the way it indents ; comments drives me nuts
15:52	jjido	what is an atom for?
15:53	shoover	amalloy: Me too. I don't mind typing ;;, myself, but if you reindent code anyone else writes, it gets all messed up.
15:53	alexyk	shoover: github added star gist! yay! starred :) Used to fork before just to remember...
15:53	nickik	@amalloy nice better then the one I wrote
15:53	jjido	can I use an atom for a variable that I just want to link back to
15:54	amalloy	nickik: if you want to avoid writing the drop-while/complement/#{} boilerplate you could do something like (defn some [list & search] (drop-while (complement (set args)) list)
15:56	ninjudd	alexy: in the deftype branch. feel free to play around with it
15:56	ninjudd	alexyk ^^^
15:56	nickik	@amally that ok i try to keep the functions as the are because in the book he uses CL and if I have functions with the same name i can use without think about it
15:57	nickik	@jjido what do you mean by "link back to"
15:57	callen	what's the name of that emacs bundle somebody put together for clojure?
15:57	amalloy	callen: emacs starter kit?
15:57	jjido	nickik: I am trying to write a double-linked list kind of structure
15:57	nickik	Emacs starter kit
15:57	callen	Bwaha.
15:57	callen	Shanks. Getting going on a new machine.
15:57	callen	who here is going to the clojure conj?
15:58	nickik	i would but its on the other side of the planet :) i hope there will be good videos
15:59	jjido	nickik: so I need to both set "next item" on my object and create an item with a back reference to it
15:59	alexyk	ninjudd: thx, will check it out (of git :))
15:59	nickik	@jjido im not an expert but could you just do a datatype that is like a concell but with 3 slots?
16:00	callen	nickik: I'm thinking about going (I'm in NYC).
16:00	amalloy	nickik: the problem is that with immutable data there's a chicken/egg situation if you want two objects to link to each other
16:00	raek	jjido: this is hard to do with immutable data structures, since they can only contain references to already constructed values
16:01	raek	the reference loops causes the problem
16:02	nickik	@callen i think fogus sad something about that there will be official videos made
16:02	jjido	raek: I know... if I could have a assoc+construct operator it would be nice
16:02	nickik	audio and the slides would be ok too
16:02	amalloy	jjido: it's pretty ugly, but you could get similar functionality a different way. have a seq of nodes, none connected to each other, and a "global" hash-map that maps node=>next/prev pair
16:03	raek	jjido: I think it would be possible to do something like (deftype [prev-atom value next-atom] ...)
16:03	raek	(deftype DoublyLinkedList ...
16:04	jjido	raek: and after that? Mutate it?
16:04	raek	the atoms can be used as mutable cells
16:04	jjido	raek: that was my question
16:05	raek	jjido: have you seen this? http://pepijndevos.nl/how-reify-works-and-how-to-write-a-custom-typ
16:06	raek	the resulting data structure wouldn't be very clojure-y, but it would work
16:09	jjido	raek: that is fun, but it uses "inc" and "dec"
16:09	jjido	so the fwd node and the bwd node can be calculated from current node
16:20	@rhickey	so, I'm finding this distributed repl really turns into 2 pretty distinct scenarios:
16:20	@rhickey	repl
16:20	@rhickey	input is stream, can (read) from in
16:20	@rhickey	outputs streams out/err are interesting to clients
16:20	@rhickey	command server
16:20	@rhickey	each message single readable object
16:20	@rhickey	eval it, generate single return
16:20	@rhickey	no in or out streams
16:21	LauJensen	rhickey: cemerick left, dont know if what you wrote was mostly for him?
16:22	chouser	command server flags and returns exceptions?
16:22	@rhickey	chouser: yes
16:23	@rhickey	repl would also have distinct eval returns
16:23	jjido	LOL using atom for double-linked list works, and one should not print out its value.
16:24	@rhickey	nothing would preclude someone using repl mode from sending complete messages of course
16:25	ninjudd	rhickey: in my thinking about this, i came to the conclusion that if you build a command server that handles in and out streams correctly, it can serve both purposes
16:25	TeXnomancy	shoover: using double semicolons for full-line comments is a pretty long lisp tradition
16:25	chouser	the difference being repl mode doesn't try to link specific input exprs with their return values?
16:26	@rhickey	chouser: no, even that is possible
16:26	chouser	jjido: finger trees allow for a double-headed list that can do a lot of what doubly-linked-lists do, and yet is persistent.
16:27	duncanm	raek: ping? i don't know how to write a multimethod that has 2 arguments
16:27	raek	that dispatches on two things?
16:27	@rhickey	ninjudd: not quite, as the semantics of the input to the command server are different
16:27	jjido	(let [self (new Bilink nil (new End) (atom nil))] (swap! (:prev (:succ self)) (fn [_] self)) self)
16:28	duncanm	raek: i want to write (distance Point Point) and (distance Vector Vector)
16:28	jjido	this is my code
16:28	chouser	rhickey: so if you can send whole exprs to repl mode, and link to the return value, is the only difference whether an incomplete input expr is an error vs. queued up text?
16:28	ninjudd	rhickey: i suppose that was based on my plan to have separate input and command queues
16:29	@rhickey	ninjudd: also, command servers allow for significantly more indirection - multiple servers servicing same input queue, results going to various dynamically supplied output queues, etc
16:29	raek	,(isa? [clojure.lang.PersistentVector clojure.lang.PersistentHashMap] [clojure.lang.IPersistentVector clojure.lang.IPersistentMap])
16:29	clojurebot	true
16:29	raek	isa? does isa? recursively on the components of data structures
16:29	@rhickey	ninjudd: you can't do that and deal with (do (prn "what is your name?") (println "Hi " (read))) properly
16:29	raek	so the dispatch function could return a 2-vector
16:30	duncanm	oh
16:30	@rhickey	chouser: no, see ^
16:30	ninjudd	rhickey: incidentally, i think a timeout in the client before switching from command mode to input mode can solve the paste problem with separate command and input streams
16:30	@rhickey	ninjudd: nope
16:31	raek	duncanm: there are some related examples on http://clojure.org/multimethods
16:31	@rhickey	chouser: above re: semantics and indirection
16:31	AWizzArd	rhickey: any chance that with the patch for the updated def (which accepts a doc string) we also can get a def- ?
16:31	ninjudd	rhickey: explain
16:31	@rhickey	to correctly handle repl-mode input you have to streamify the input message queue
16:32	ninjudd	rhickey: that's more of a reiteration than an explanation ;)
16:32	duncanm	raek: i've been looking at that - http://gist.github.com/605263 -- this is my latest attempt, but it doesn't work
16:33	duncanm	raek: oops, there's a typo there
16:33	chouser	interesting. who uses in other than the repl? I'm always a bit startled when I see it.
16:34	@rhickey	chouser: any interactive console app might
16:34	ninjudd	chouser: cake uses it for running bare clj scripts and also for it's piped unix filter task
16:35	@rhickey	shutdown server (y/n)? ...
16:35	chouser	yeah, I know it's supported by the normal terminal repl, but mixing with (read) ...
16:35	chouser	ok ok, I'll drop that line.
16:35	ninjudd	rhickey: the way we currently unify the command server and repl server in cake is that 'repl' is a command
16:36	@rhickey	ninjudd: I can't spend any more time on that command and in take turns idea
16:36	brianstamand	Does anyone know how to add my own java packages to leiningen? The code works if I manually put them in classes but when i build with lein it "cleans up" by deleting them
16:36	brianstamand	by "classes" i mean classes/ sorry
16:36	_rata_	hi clojurians
16:37	ninjudd	rhickey: fine, i'll drop it unless i can come up with a working prototype
16:38	defn	<Raynes> I've probably used and more than I've used or, but used if more than I've used and and or.
16:38	Raynes	defn: Ohai!
16:39	raek	duncanm: are you sure that you don't have the old defmulti lying around? defmulti has defonce semantics nowadays...
16:39	defn	hey buddy, long time no see
16:39	@rhickey	so we were talking yesterday about trying to get down to 2 queues, one for in and one for out. But given this dichotomy, I think it's 3 - in (with 2 modes), results and out-streams
16:39	ninjudd	rhickey: my point is just this: whether you unify the command and repl server by having separate command and in streams or by making 'repl' a command, it can be done.
16:40	@rhickey	ninjudd: aargh
16:40	raek	duncanm: couly you try (ns-unmap 'your.ns 'distance)?
16:40	raek	...and then revealuate the definitions
16:41	@rhickey	command server runs input in atomic message mode, doesn't offer out-streams, repl runs input in stream mode, offers out-streams
16:41	defn	so today is my last day to get the early bird special for clojure-conj, eh?
16:41	Raynes	defn: I'm going to cry if you're not there when I arrive.
16:41	Raynes	I was looking forward to bear hugs and such.
16:42	defn	hahaha -- not all of us can get such a sweet deal raynes!
16:42	@rhickey	repl server needs a stronger notion of a session than does command server
16:42	Raynes	Ain't that the truth.
16:43	TeXnomancy	brianstamand: you mean java code you've written yourself?
16:43	defn	i wonder if i can convince the community to give an out of 25-year-old a break...
16:43	defn	out of work*
16:43	ninjudd	rhickey: can you support running non-repl command-line scripts with stdin support using the two-mode approach?
16:45	esj	defn: could be worse, you could be stuck on the other side of the pond...
16:45	@rhickey	ninjudd: I don't know what you mean by that. It's an execution server, you send it stuff to execute. Command line is out of scope (i.e. something you wrap around this if it makes sense)
16:46	Raynes	defn: You're welcome to sleep at the foot of my bed if necessary.
16:46	TeXnomancy	brianstamand: you might want to try the javac plugin, which is on the verge of getting merged into mainline; there's a thread on the lein mailing list about it
16:46	defn	esj: you've got me there -- i think i might just sell some stuff to make it happen, i figure i could unload a guitar (but that would break my heart)
16:46	defn	Raynes: careful, i might take you up on that!
16:47	ninjudd	rhickey: i guess what i'm asking is: can you support stdin for commands sent to the command server? or are you saying that isn't important?
16:47	chouser	ninjudd: would repl mode not work for that?
16:47	@rhickey	ninjudd: It doesn't care where input comes from on the client side
16:47	chouser	ninjudd: how do you decide when to disconnect currently?
16:48	@rhickey	but repl mode makes it easy to stick streaming input into the client, as you don't need to partition by 'command'
16:48	ninjudd	chouser: it may, but then your code is interspersed with your data.
16:48	amalloy	when is the conj, anyway?
16:48	defn	Late Oct.
16:48	defn	22,23rd
16:48	Raynes	22nd - 23rd.
16:49	ninjudd	chouser: eof on stdin or the socket read stream
16:49	amalloy	actually is there just a website i can look at? i'm a 25-y/o, not out of work but not interested in spending loads of money either; might arrange to go halfsies with defn if it's convenient?
16:49	chouser	ninjudd: oh, the server doesn't disconnect when the command is done?
16:50	defn	amalloy: yeah im definitely interested
16:50	defn	hardest part for me is going to be /getting there/
16:50	nickik	@rhickey are there going to be videos (or audio) available?
16:50	nickik	of the conj
16:50	ninjudd	chouser: the server closes the socket which causes an eof in the client
16:50	amalloy	defn: from where?
16:50	@rhickey	nickik: dunno yet, someone is looking into it
16:50	defn	i have class on thursday and my car is going to be angry at me if i put too many miles on it
16:50	brianstamand	TeXnomancy - Thanks. And yes, that's what I meant :)
16:50	defn	amalloy: Wisconsin
16:50	chouser	ninjudd: when does the server decide to close the socket?
16:50	esj	nickik: I was just talking to relevance about that yesterday. They're trying to arrange it, and looks like it may be possible.
16:51	chouser	amalloy: http://clojure-conj.org/
16:51	defn	ty chouser
16:51	amalloy	defn: heh. can't help you much with getting there; i'm coming from san francisco
16:51	defn	amalloy: flying i assume?
16:51	amalloy	i was planning to walk, but i guess your idea is better
16:52	defn	haha
16:52	nickik	the titels of the presentations alone make me dribble but there is know way I can fly to america
16:52	lancepantz	that's like 1 5-6 day drive
16:52	joly	esj: nickik: video or audio/slides would be awesome
16:52	ninjudd	chouser: when the code is done executing, in the case of the 'repl' command, that happens when there is an eof on the client's stdin (which causes the client to close the socket write stream).
16:52	nickik	@esj cool would be great
16:53	defn	lancepantz: haha ive done Wisconsin to New York, and Wisconsin to Alaska -- you can do it in less, but it requires an intense sense of purpose
16:53	esj	nickik: its apparently mucho expensive. I said I'd be willing to put cash towards it, and that I'm probably not the only one. Getting the videos would be a major win. rhickey's videos were a large part of what drew me into clj, and I doubt I'm alone.
16:53	nickik	audio and slides are sufficien
16:54	nickik	@esj i wanted to pick up scala when I discoverd the videos :)
16:54	Chousuke	I hope the questions will be audible too :P
16:54	esj	Chousuke: always somebody wants the impossible :)
16:54	defn	I just want to see what all of the Clojurians are wearing! Will there be a red carpet?
16:54	nickik	@esj just audio should be expensive, would it?
16:55	Chousuke	In most presentation recordings I watch/hear the QA session goes like "... yes ... "oh good question <blah blah>" ... "no" ..."
16:55	defn	Chousuke: good presenters restate the question
16:55	Chousuke	It's easy to forget though.
16:55	defn	nod
16:55	esj	nickik: i have no idea, relevence say so, and they strike me as not being in the habit of being incorrect.
16:55	defn	amalloy: let me know what you decide, will you?
16:56	defn	we could split a room -- that'd cut costs a bit
16:56	nickik	they could open a pool to raise money for it. I would pay for them and I think a lot of people from europ would
16:56	amalloy	defn: yeah, that was the main thing i was thinking. but jeez flights to NC are a lot longer and more expensive than flights to denver :P
16:57	nickik	*too
16:57	anonymouse89	I'm running into a lack of understanding of namespaces. For my purposes I have a namespace foo.core which contains -main. I need main to take stuff defn'd in an external file, put it into foo.a namespace.
16:57	esj	nickik: that's what I expressed, and I think they'll do that if they can't arrange it on their own bat. Can't hurt to let them know you'd be keen, though...
16:58	amalloy	defn: yeah, sorry, i don't think i want to spend $1000 and two work days on the conj
16:58	anonymouse89	right now I'm trying to load-file and then intern the function into foo.a, but this is not working (java.lang.Exception: Can't create defs outside of current ns)
16:59	nickik	@esj lets hope for the best. thx
16:59	Raynes	amalloy: Sneak in in ninjudd's luggage.
16:59	ninjudd	carry on
17:00	amalloy	oh, ninjudd lives near sf?
17:01	nickik	@anonymouse89 you want to define something in a other namespace? You should do that. Whats the usecase?
17:01	ninjudd	amalloy: no. encino
17:01	amalloy	damn. i was hoping i could just stalk you when i want more cake features
17:03	lpetit	rhickey: just for knowing, would you accept a patch to clojure to add to clojure's META-INF/MANIFEST.MF the relevant OSGi meta-data (static parts such as Export-Package, Symbolic name, etc. ; and dynamic part for the bundle version) ?
17:03	anonymouse89	nickik: it's a genetic programming system. The user is defining an error-function in an external file and then passing the path to that file as an argument.
17:03	clojurebot	namespaces are (more or less, Chouser) java packages. they look like foo.bar; and corresponde to a directory foo/ containg a file bar.clj in your classpath. the namespace declaration in bar.clj would like like (ns foo.bar). Do not try to use single segment namespaces. a single segment namespace is a namespace without a period in it
17:03	lpetit	nothing's ready yet, just asking to know how you would feel with such a patch
17:08	nickik	@annonymouse89 the new file should become a new namespace?
17:10	anonymouse89	nickik: the user is giving me a fn written in clojure in its own file without a namespace declaration. I need that to be put into a specific namespace where it will be accessible by other functions that use it.
17:11	@rhickey	lpetit: are they completely generic (i.e. not per app)?
17:12	lpetit	Good point.
17:12	lpetit	They would be generic, or not be, indeed.
17:12	chouser	anonymouse89: try (binding [ns (the-ns 'users-ns)] (load-file ...))
17:13	chouser	anonymouse89: you'll need to set up that namespace first, perferrably with the ns macro
17:14	nickik	@chouser the version i was thinking about wouldn't have been that clean :)
17:25	AWizzArd	definlined functions can be used first-class values yes and go into function positions yes? This is the difference to macros.
17:26	KirinDave	Hum
17:26	KirinDave	When writing a macro for a def form
17:26	KirinDave	What's the idiom for inserting metadata on the defined symbol?
17:26	KirinDave	^{...} doesn't seem to work
17:26	AWizzArd	KirinDave: with-meta
17:26	KirinDave	Ah
17:26	AWizzArd	http://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/maven/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/def.clj#L39
17:27	nickik	http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-dylan-225.html <- can I do something like this (the <integer> / 1 multimethod part) in clojure without making a specific dispatch value for that case?
17:31	raek	KirinDave: ' ^{...} foo ; this also works
17:31	KirinDave	raek: In a macro?
17:31	KirinDave	It is not working...
17:31	raek	ah
17:31	raek	sorry
17:32	raek	when you have the symbol as a value, the with-meta is the way to go
17:32	raek	my example was for symbol literals with metadata
17:32	anonymouse89	chouser: thanks, not sure if that's exactly what I need but it's given me ideas
17:33	AWizzArd	for literal symbols it should work, yes
17:34	raek	^{...} ' foo ; puts metadata on the (quote foo) list
17:34	duncanm	raek: ah, ns-unmap fixed it
17:35	AWizzArd	Is it the compiler which expands definlines?
17:37	amalloy	nickik: i don't think so
17:38	lancepantz	if i (use 'foo) in user, then running (ns-refers 'user) should contain mappings for the fns in foo, correct?
17:42	nickik	@amalloy would be a cool.
17:43	nickik	In dylan you don't have to say (defmulti ....) every time you can just wirte (defmethod ...) and if there is no multimethod it creats one
17:43	erikcw1	was gen-and-load-class removed from 1.2?
17:46	amalloy	nickik: but (defmulti) is more flexible; you specify a dispatch function, which could be simple equality like in this case, or could be based on class (more common), or on...size of the input collection, or whatever
17:49	nickik	amalloy: yes but would it just be handy if there was a standerd function provieded (if a stupid on like class or a complicaded one could be decided later)
17:53	amalloy	nickik: what if the defmethod were parsed and compiled before the defmulti were ever created? it's easy to imagine that causing problems
17:55	amalloy	ie the compiler defaults to a defmulti on class, then assigns your method to it; then someone defines a multi with a similar name; i don't think it's reasonable to expect the compiler to dive into code belonging to another class/file and undo some bindings
17:55	Nathan2	Hey, I'm trying to define a function that gives a nested iteration like the for-macro. I can't use for because I don't know ahead of time how many sequences I'm looping over. I solved it with recursion, and I wonder if that's the best/most idiomatic way.
17:56	Nathan2	My attempt: http://paste.lisp.org/+2GSI
18:00	amalloy	nathan: my guess is no, there must be a better way to do this, but i'm not sure what it is. with so many nice language constructs having to do recursion by hand is a warning sign
18:01	AWizzArd	,(instance? Long)
18:01	clojurebot	false
18:03	amalloy	not very helpful, i know; i'll have a go at fixing it up to make your current solution more idiomatic, at least
18:06	Nathan2	That's what I felt as well! But I couldn't think of a way without resorting to a macro that leveraged 'for'
18:07	jjido	,(list "a")
18:07	clojurebot	("a")
18:07	jjido	(conj "a" nil)
18:07	jjido	,(conj "a" nil)
18:07	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.String cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
18:07	jjido	,(cons "a" nil)
18:07	clojurebot	("a")
18:09	joly	,(conj nil "a")
18:09	clojurebot	("a")
18:09	jjido	joly: ok I got it backwards ;)
18:09	joly	jjiddo: :)
18:10	amalloy	Nathan2: the first/rest thing is way un-idiomatic, particularly. that looks a lot better with desctructuring
18:12	Nathan2	amalloy: That's true.
18:15	amalloy	hm, i seem to have broken emacs's automatic gisting
18:15	Nathan2	I was trying to think of a way to use reduce, but I still feel that it would require something recursive-esque... like reduce returing functions that further reduce... or something like that.
18:16	amalloy	http://gist.github.com/605420 is a (horribly-indented) version that uses destructuring
18:16	amalloy	it's not tested, either; i just tried to quickly add in destructuring
18:17	alexyk	ninjudd: can you run cake client on one box and jvm on another?
18:18	alexyk	e/g/ eval'ling from TextMate on a puny mac in a monster JVM on a gigaserver
18:18	ninjudd	currently, no. but you can implement it if you want :)
18:19	ninjudd	alexyk: the hard part will be stopping and starting the jvm remotely
18:19	alexyk	ninjudd: yeah
18:20	alexyk	how about li'l popups "tell servant to restart jvm"
18:20	Chousuke	net send ... :P
18:20	alexyk	I meant "tell intern"
18:21	alexyk	over their tidy ssh tunnels
18:22	lancepantz	alexyk: so are you using textmate for clojure dev now?
18:23	alexyk	ninjudd: now that I have a monolithic jiraph jar, how can I import jiraph.tc as tc? rusty
18:23	alexyk	lancepantz: yep, I always prefer TextMate these days
18:24	alexyk	although I used Emacs since 1994... "When facts change, my opinion changes; and yours, sir?"
18:24	ninjudd	alexyk: you mean? (require '[jiraph.tc :as tc])
18:24	Nathan2	amalloy: That version does look a lot neater.
18:24	alexyk	ninjudd: I used to have that and it fails for some reason now... let me see
18:26	amalloy	Nathan2: but does it work?
18:28	ssideris	hello, does anyone know if leiningen supports "source" dependencies?
18:28	ssideris	as in non-jarred clojure files that are not in the procject's dir structure
18:28	alexyk	ninjudd: looks like no jiraph__init.class or jiraph.clj in jiraph-0.5.0-SNAPSHOT.jar built by cake install?
18:30	ninjudd	alexyk: are you in the deftype branch?
18:30	alexyk	yep
18:30	ninjudd	there is no jiraph or jiraph.tc in that branch
18:30	Nathan2	amalloy: Yep, it looks to work the same: (take 4 (nested2 (range) [:a :b])) ----> ([0 :a] [0 :b] [1 :a] [1 :b])
18:31	ninjudd	if you want the old jiraph.tc ns, use master
18:31	ninjudd	otherwise, the interface has changed quite a bit
18:31	alexyk	ninjudd: that explains it :) So: I actually use tokyo cabinet part of jiraph. How do I do that now?
18:32	Nathan2	I tried looking at the source of the 'for' macro... it's pretty hairy.
18:32	ninjudd	alexyk: jiraph.tokyo-database, but like i said, it has changed quite a bit
18:32	alexyk	ninjudd: ok...
18:33	ninjudd	alexyk: uses protocols. the protocol for tokyo-database is in jiraph.byte-database
18:33	alexyk	ninjudd: should master cake install under clojure 1.2?
18:33	alexyk	meaning master of jiraph cake-install...
18:34	ninjudd	alexyk: it is on clojars, if that's what you mean
18:35	alexyk	ninjudd: and playing nicely with clojure 1.2?
18:35	ninjudd	alexyk: not sure. i haven't tried
18:35	alexyk	ok
18:38	nickik	Why is this not working when i pass a string? http://paste.lisp.org/display/115075
18:42	nickik	damn! that should work!
18:46	brianstamand	Why does lein try to run my jar after it jars it?
18:47	brianstamand	Or I should say before. Since it isn't creating the jars :p
18:48	brianstamand	Whenever I include a :main it does it
18:51	raek	nickik: try (ns-unmap 'the-ns 'the-var)
18:52	raek	and then reavluate the defmulti
18:53	raek	defmulti now has defonce semantics...
18:56	nickik	@reak I see i tought its something like this the function is now called foo :)
18:56	nickik	why was that added=
19:00	nickik	@raek this is the final version but know the bunny stuff doesn't work http://paste.lisp.org/display/115078
19:00	nickik	the type stoff works
19:08	amalloy	nickik: the nested ifs there are weird. i don't know much about multimethods, but surely this should be a cond
19:08	amalloy	(cond (seq rest) (...) xspec xpec :else (class x))
19:11	nickik	but that should matter that just a other way of coding it (the better one)
19:13	amalloy	yes
19:13	amalloy	like i said, not exactly a multimethod pro here
19:26	amalloy	nickik: http://gist.github.com/605491 should also be identical but even shorter and clearer, but for some reason the :as thing is failing to compile. anyone know why?
19:26	alexyk	ninjudd: interesting setup difference, on mac cake proto instaleld protoc fine, on linux says: [install-protoc] sudo: sorry, you must have a tty to run sudo
19:26	alexyk	I do have sudo, but it thinks it's not in a tty
19:27	alexyk	I can run sudo cake proto from command line, but cake still wants sudo
19:27	ninjudd	alexyk: mind opening an github issue on clojure-protobuf with details?
19:28	alexyk	ninjudd: sure if it's not my setup
19:28	nickik	@amalloy can you use :as after &? Somebody was faster then me (and better) look at it here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/3834263/is-clojures-multi-method-dispatch-truly-superior-say-to-what-i-can-do-in-pytho
19:28	ninjudd	alexyk: sounds like a real bug
19:29	alexyk	ninjudd: my sudo is also weird on that system, not remembering my password for a few minutes
19:29	ninjudd	hmm
19:29	alexyk	well it does in fact
19:29	alexyk	so it's cake
19:30	ninjudd	alexyk: just install protoc manually for now. it will probably be a few weeks before i'll find time to figure out a workaround
19:30	amalloy	nickik: you can use :as after &; the same binding works when i evaluate it in a let[], but fails in a defn[]
19:31	nickik	can't say why
19:32	Joreji	Hey guys, what do I have to do in order to have a record be a clojure.lang.Sequential?
19:32	amalloy	nickik: i see why; one of the comments in the link you gave me shows the right way to do it
19:32	alexyk	ninjudd: did manual install, it still wants to sudo... how does it check for protoc? simply in path?
19:33	Joreji	Is there some way to provide Sequential-like behavior (which is... according to repl-utils/show... no behavior at all...) to a record?
19:33	ninjudd	alexyk: yes
19:33	alexyk	ninjudd: taking path from current shell or login?
19:34	ninjudd	shell
19:34	amalloy	nickik: http://gist.github.com/605501 shows the right way to use :as
19:37	nickik	ah ok good to know
19:37	amalloy	Joreji: just (seq myrec), right?
19:37	nickik	so im going to bed
19:37	nickik	night
19:37	amalloy	that gives you a seq of key/value pairs
19:38	Joreji	amalloy: but: (sequential? myrec) => false
19:39	Joreji	amalloy: I would like to be able to use flatten on a record which has children. But flatten filters out everything which is not a sequantial.
19:40	ohpauleez	what's the correct way to do (not (nil?))
19:41	ohpauleez	I feel like there's a more idiomatic way to do it, but I'm drawing a blank
19:43	cemerick	rhickey: ping
19:43	@rhickey	cemerick: hey
19:44	cemerick	rhickey: Evening :-) Do you have a sense for what your time horizon is on mqREPL?
19:45	@rhickey	cemerick: I babbled a bit earlier
19:45	@rhickey	...
19:45	cemerick	I can go check the logs
19:45	@rhickey	it's a bit more refined now, essentially I see two pretty distinct use cases
19:45	lancepantz	so is nREPL now mqREPL or are you continuing work on nREPL as well cemerick ?
19:45	@rhickey	command server and repl server
19:46	@rhickey	nrepl as it stands is kind of a hybrid
19:46	@rhickey	repl
19:46	@rhickey	input is stream, can (read) from in
19:46	@rhickey	outputs streams out/err are interesting to clients
19:46	@rhickey	needs a stronger notion of session (for in/out association)
19:46	@rhickey	context survives from one call to next
19:46	@rhickey	e.g. (def x 42), e 1 2. ns*
19:46	@rhickey	set!s of bindings, ns
19:46	@rhickey	command server
19:46	@rhickey	each message single readable object
19:46	@rhickey	eval it, generate single return
19:46	@rhickey	eval in what ns?
19:46	@rhickey	no in or out streams
19:46	@rhickey	or per server, not per session?
19:46	@rhickey	or capture output only during command execution?
19:46	@rhickey	flush and drain
19:46	@rhickey	no session notion
19:46	@rhickey	no enduring context
19:46	@rhickey	except changes to global namespaces
19:47	cemerick	lancepantz: things are up in the air at the moment
19:47	@rhickey	I think what you've got could be repl server if it handled in better. Maybe I'll just let tool users force you into that :)
19:47	@rhickey	but a command server really should have no context
19:48	@rhickey	cemerick: I think all you need to do is get away from command is in a single message
19:49	@rhickey	stick a little streamifier on input that tracks message ids
19:49	cemerick	Having the side channels for the streaming bits is a fine enhancement to make to what's there now.
19:49	cemerick	But it absolutely must retain discrete return values.
19:49	@rhickey	when repl erad returns, it can grab the last id from the special instream, then bind it to in and eval
19:49	@rhickey	read
19:50	@rhickey	cemerick: yes, discrete results
19:50	@rhickey	could interleave err and out fragments
19:50	@rhickey	for async output
19:50	cemerick	rhickey: that's what I was implementing yesterday morning
19:50	@rhickey	I think err and out should be separate
19:51	cemerick	agreed
19:51	@rhickey	in any case, as I think more about command server, I think it would probably like to leverage more of the mqs
19:51	@rhickey	for instance there's nothing precluding multiple command servers consuming same queue, and dynamic reply-to queues for results
19:52	cemerick	That's decidedly out of scope for me, at least right now.
19:52	@rhickey	so, I think you should proceed with nrepl and I'll play around with command server on stomp/mq
19:52	@rhickey	they are different, and a command server will never be a suitable repl given the lack of context
19:52	cemerick	rhickey: your positions on protocols and such notwithstanding?
19:53	@rhickey	whether you switch to stomp for your API is a separate question, but I think the stomp for retargeting over mqs is not as important as stomp for transport independence and free clients
19:54	@rhickey	in any case, something that wanted to be both a repl server and command server would have to have two distinct modes for the input queue, and separate queues for results and outstreams
19:54	@rhickey	half of which wouldn't be used for each use case
19:55	@rhickey	so repl server and command server
19:56	@rhickey	but I think you should evaluate stomp strictly with the repl server use case in mind, and see if it makes sense to you
19:56	cemerick	It seems that "command server" is a context-free repl server, suitable for use over MQs.
19:56	@rhickey	context free and different input semantics
19:57	@rhickey	and session-free
19:57	@rhickey	and proper destination notion, for reply-to
19:57	cemerick	I'd group all the issues around streams and connection state/session under "context", but sure.
19:57	@rhickey	so, connection-free really
19:58	Joreji	Common guys, there must be some way to have (sequential? my-rec) return true?
19:58	@rhickey	it's quite different when you put it all together
19:58	cemerick	Indeed.
19:58	cemerick	Funny how we start and finish this thing in roughly the same positions where we started, at least from where I sit. :-)
19:59	@rhickey	as you your current wire protocol, I have to admit to really not liking it. I don't think you serve non-Clojure clients by making it newline terminated drivel
19:59	@rhickey	I wouldn't be afraid to pass/return Clojure data literals, they aren't hard to construct in any language that has strings
20:00	cemerick	sheesh
20:00	@rhickey	the nthe question is do you put that payload in a standard protocol like stomp
20:00	@rhickey	sorry, dribble
20:00	@rhickey	not drivel
20:00	@rhickey	:)
20:01	cemerick	ironically enough, stomp is newline- and NUL-terminated
20:02	@rhickey	after all, that is what you are going to get back, right?
20:02	cemerick	what, clojure data literals?
20:02	@rhickey	cemerick: but don't get confused about the headers (for the server) and the body (for us)
20:02	@rhickey	cemerick: yes
20:03	cemerick	anyway
20:04	@rhickey	http://gist.github.com/605527
20:06	@rhickey	i.e. structured messages, the stomp frames are for stomp
20:06	cemerick	so all clients would need to have a clojure reader impl?
20:06	@rhickey	cemerick: that's what I asked before, isn't that what they are going to get back anyway?
20:06	@rhickey	clojure data?
20:07	cemerick	no, they're getting strings back
20:07	@rhickey	strings with what in them?
20:07	cemerick	results from out, err, and (pr-str last-value)
20:07	cemerick	none of which are guaranteed-readable
20:08	@rhickey	cemerick: I guess if all they are doing is client-side printing, still thinking about programmatic use...
20:09	@rhickey	anyway, I'll get my use case out of your hair, and trust you and the tools guys to agree on something great
20:09	cemerick	rhickey: no, tools would be sending expressions that they expect to return readable forms
20:09	cemerick	That's a client issue, though.
20:10	@rhickey	you don't need a full reader to read {:result "string" :out "string"}
20:11	@rhickey	but why not make it easiest for Clojure devs?
20:11	cemerick	Clojure devs I'm not worried about at all -- they'll be using the provided client anyways.
20:12	@rhickey	cemerick: ok
20:13	@rhickey	well, the important think is that nrepl should proceed, and focus on repl, not leaving out any human needs
20:14	@rhickey	I've gotten far enough in the design to see that command server is a different beast, mqrepl is likely to fall by the wayside unless it falls out of your work
20:15	@rhickey	sorry for the distraction
20:33	defn	Does anyone know if clojure-conj registration is refundable?
20:35	defn	Also I remember seeing discounted room rates for conference-goers -- do those rates still exist or have they all been sold?
20:35	Raynes	defn: They exist through October 8th, I believe.
20:36	defn	Ah I was missing the link -- found it
20:36	defn	Thanks Raynes
20:37	defn	I think I'll get 2 doubles just in case there are any smoking hot femme-Clojurians
20:38	defn	Thinking about that though, why would I want 2 doubles?
20:38	amalloy	defn: to lull them
20:38	defn	amalloy: haha
20:39	defn	"No it's cool! There's /two/ beds! Not creepy!"
20:39	amalloy	because they wouldn't worry at ALL about sleeping on your other bed...
20:39	Raynes	Alan told me he booked a room with two 'Queen' beds. I think he was overtired that night. I'm fairly certainly they don't have double queens.
20:39	Raynes	Like double double isn't good enough for me.
20:39	defn	Raynes: I know lol -- I sleep on a full with my current girlfriend because we're poor and have no space
20:40	Raynes	I sleep on a horrid twin sized bed with bent bars underneath. My cousin spent time in Iraq and pointed out that the bed feels exactly the same as what he slept on during that time.
20:40	defn	I can't imagine being like: "I'm sorry, but queen is not large enough"
20:40	defn	Raynes: haha, ouch
20:41	Raynes	I'd put the mattress on the floor and sleep there if I wasn't terrified of spiders and mice.
20:41	defn	I've flipped my mattress to try and get back that "new mattress feel"
20:41	defn	no dice.
20:41	Raynes	Not really scared of either of them, but they're much more intimidating when you're asleep.
20:41	Raynes	Roll over on a mouse and wake up with rabies.
20:42	defn	I once was in Belize on a little Caye out in the middle of the ocean
20:42	defn	I had a cockroach half the size of my mind put a couple legs in my mouth
20:42	defn	s/ming/hand
20:42	defn	grr, mind*
20:42	Raynes	._.
20:42	Raynes	I was about to comment on your excruciatingly tiny mind.
20:42	defn	I was about to challenge you to a duel.
20:43	Raynes	"[
20:43	Raynes	:p*
20:43	dnolen	so what was the verdict on an inclusive take-while again?, speaking of which, keep is really cool.
20:45	defn	dnolen: care to explain keep?
20:46	dnolen	,(first (keep [nil nil nil 1 nil]))
20:46	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$keep
20:46	defn	(doc keep)
20:46	clojurebot	"([f coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of the non-nil results of (f item). Note, this means false return values will be included. f must be free of side-effects."
20:46	dnolen	(first (keep identity [nil nil nil 1 nil]))
20:46	dnolen	,(first (keep identity [nil nil nil 1 nil]))
20:46	clojurebot	1
20:46	defn	(map keep [nil nil nil 1 nil])
20:47	defn	(keep true? [nil 1 true nil])
20:47	defn	,(keep true? [nil 1 true nil])
20:47	clojurebot	(false false true false)
20:47	defn	cool.
20:47	amalloy	,(map #(keep identity %) [nil 1 nil nil 2] [3 nil])
20:47	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (2) passed to: sandbox$eval8265$fn
20:48	amalloy	,(map #(keep identity %) [[nil 1 nil nil 2] [3 nil]])
20:48	clojurebot	((1 2) (3))
20:48	defn	that's just magix
20:48	defn	magic
20:49	Raynes	That's awesome.
20:49	defn	it'd be neat for optional args, i think
20:51	dnolen	,((fn [& [x & rest :as all]] [x rest all]) [1 2 3])
20:51	clojurebot	[[1 2 3] nil ([1 2 3])]
20:52	dnolen	oops
20:52	dnolen	,((fn [& [x & rest :as all]] [x rest all]) 1 2 3)
20:52	clojurebot	[1 (2 3) (1 2 3)]
20:52	dnolen	also awesome
20:52	defn	,(let [args [nil 1 "foo" "sometimes" nil nil 100]] (keep identity args))
20:52	clojurebot	(1 "foo" "sometimes" 100)
20:53	defn	,(class "foo")
20:53	clojurebot	java.lang.String
20:53	chouser	,(class (class "foo"))
20:53	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
20:53	defn	,(class (class (class "foo")))
20:53	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
20:54	defn	if you do anymore of those the world explodes.
20:54	defn	or something...
20:54	defn	chouser: are you going to check out hillary mason's talk at strangeloop?
20:54	defn	i think that looks like my highlight next to seeing Guy Steele
20:56	defn	and of course ill be going to your talk :)
20:59	amalloy	,(nth (iterate class 1) 1000)
20:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Class
21:00	amalloy	defn: no explosions!
21:00	defn	I don't believe it.
21:00	amalloy	truly a miracle of nature
21:00	defn	Now verbalize what's going on there in your head. That will give you schizophrenia at least I think.
21:01	amalloy	anyway goin home now. ta ta
21:01	defn	amalloy: you get your ticket for clojure-conj?
21:01	defn	amalloy: im about to book a room, wondering if you want to split a room for a couple nights...
21:02	amalloy	defn: afraid not; i mentioned earlier that i decided not to go, but i guess you missed it
21:02	defn	ah yeah, i had a kernel panic :X
21:02	amalloy	haha
21:02	amalloy	bye
21:02	defn	amalloy: if you change your mind let me know, im getting 2 doubles regardless
21:02	defn	ciao
21:06	Joreji	What's the difference between clojure.lang.ASeq and clojure.lang.ISeq?
21:10	defn	Joreji: someone is probably going to correct me but I think it has to do with rest, vs next
21:11	Joreji	Ah okay. I was hoping for ASeq to be a protocol. Too bad.
21:13	cais2002	(good morning)
21:13	defn	=> true
21:13	cais2002	is there an existing function that could do (index-of [1 2 3 6 5] 6) => 3
21:14	defn	,(get [1 2 3] 2)
21:14	clojurebot	3
21:15	Joreji	,(.indexOf [1 2 3 6 5] 6)
21:15	clojurebot	3
21:16	Joreji	cais2002: Found that using auto-complete-mode, in case you are using emacs.
21:21	cais2002	joreji: thanks. using vim
21:22	defn	cais2002: sorry i misunderstood
21:22	cais2002	aikes, I thought defn is a robot ...
21:23	defn	clojurebot: skynet?
21:23	clojurebot	I will become skynet. Mark my words.
21:23	Raynes	-> (first (keep-indexed #(when (= 6 %2) %) [1 2 3 6 5]))
21:23	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: (#'clojure.core/keep-indexed)
21:23	Raynes	Bleh
21:24	Raynes	,(first (keep-indexed #(when (= 6 %2) %) [1 2 3 6 5]))
21:24	clojurebot	3
21:24	defn	what breaks the sandbox there?
21:24	Raynes	keep-indexed.
21:24	Raynes	It's just not whitelisted.
21:24	defn	ah
21:26	chouser	defn: yeah, Hillary's talk looks interesting
21:28	defn	her tweets are really interesting all the time
21:28	defn	so i figure it'll be cool
21:29	defn	for instance, she took a few days of tweets and showed the distribution of possible spellings for "fuck" :D
21:29	defn	"FuuucuuuuuuuCCCKKKKK" 5, "FUCK" 10000, etc. heh
21:31	chouser	hm, edifying
21:31	defn	obviously she's doing God's work
21:51	brianstamand	.
21:52	ossareh	chouser: you'll be loving everyone in that case, http://www.skynetlovesyou.com/
22:03	pjb3	trying to install clojure-contrib from master
22:03	pjb3	FAIL in (writing-attributes) (test_jmx.clj:79)
22:04	chouser	ossareh: I don't get it.
22:19	jk_	does this code create a new set every time i call it? (defn jar? [file-name]
22:19	jk_	(let [jar-types #{"jar" "zip" "rar" "war" "ear"}]
22:19	jk_	(boolean (jar-types (extension file-name)))))
22:20	_rata__	hi
22:31	ossareh	chouser: it was lame :)
22:35	chouser	jk_: let's find out!
22:36	chouser	,(let [f (fn [] #{"one" "two" "three"})] (identical? (f) (f)))
22:36	clojurebot	false
22:36	jk_	bummer
22:36	jk_	:)
22:36	chouser	hm, I'm mildly surprised
22:36	jk_	chouser: nice way to test it though
22:37	chouser	well, it means the root node is different
22:37	chouser	it doesn't prove there's no internal sharing
22:37	clojurebot	sharing is caring
22:37	jk_	i see :)
22:38	jk_	chouser: but if i plan to do something like that, i should def the set ahead of time?
22:38	chouser	hmmm
22:39	jk_	.1
22:39	jk_	.(1)
22:39	jk_	waht triggers the clojurebot?
22:39	hiredman	chouser: why would they not be the same?
22:39	hiredman	er
22:40	hiredman	why would they be?
22:40	hiredman	the read in set is the same, but it has to be evaluated/created each time the function is called
22:40	chouser	once read, why wouldn't it just return the thing that was read
22:40	TheBusby	jk_: ,(printfln "comma's trigger the bot I think")
22:40	TheBusby	jk_: ,(println "comma's trigger the bot I think")
22:41	TheBusby	nmind...
22:41	jk_	lol
22:41	hiredman	because if it did it like that functions like (fn [x] #{x}) would return a set with the symbol x in it
22:46	jk_	hiredman: doesn't it actually do that though? doesn't the function argument simply shadow any def from the outer scope? just askng...
22:46	hiredman	ah
22:46	hiredman	no
22:47	hiredman	I mean it would return literally the symbol x inside a set
22:47	hiredman	passing it through from the reader like chouser is suggesting is what quote does
22:48	chouser	,(let [f (fn [] '#{"one" "two" "three"})] (identical? (f) (f)))
22:48	clojurebot	true
22:48	chouser	ha! fascinating
22:48	hiredman	all the collection types have a static create method that takes an array
22:48	jk_	.(true)
22:50	hiredman	so I imagine the emmited byte code pushing the functions args on to the stack, makes an array, and then calls the static method
22:50	hiredman	and the static method doesn't know it's recreating the same thing again
22:52	jk_	hiredman: umm you mean it's making an array of the stuff in the set literal that from from the function body? and then calling the method. there is no arg
22:53	jk_	wow that was seriously mangled
22:53	hiredman	oh, the jvm is a stack machine so args are most implicit
22:53	hiredman	mostly
22:53	jk_	ok, i see what you're saying
22:54	hiredman	you build up stuff on the stack then invokestatci Some.method some-arg-types some-return-type
22:54	hiredman	which is really weird
22:54	hiredman	the types are arguments but the values are implicit
22:54	hiredman	but the types aren't really arguments for the method, they are for linking the correct method
22:56	chouser	I guess it would have to detect at compile time that the contents are all constants
22:56	chouser	a lot of work to just save the user from a '
23:01	amalloy	chouser: plus it would make it impossible to get the opposite behavior. the way things are now, you can either quote it, or close around the value you want to be constant, right?
23:05	jk_	so the answer to my original question is yes, it's creating a new set every time unless i quote it in the let so the reader doesn't evaluate it. is that correct?
23:07	amalloy	jk_: it seems that way, but i wouldn't be surprised to learn that that's an implementation detail you shouldn't rely on
23:08	jk_	amalloy: but i have to rely on it if i need to understand the program behavior. why would i want to create potentially millions of objects when it's completely unnecessary?
23:09	amalloy	,(let [c #{1 2 3}, f (fn [] c)] (identical? (f) (f)))
23:09	clojurebot	true
23:09	amalloy	that you can rely on for sure
23:09	amalloy	i wouldn't be 100% confident about the quoting trick unless i read docs that said it works
23:10	jk_	,(1)
23:10	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn
23:10	amalloy	,1
23:10	clojurebot	1
23:10	jk_	aha! it's the comma :)
23:10	amalloy	yes
23:10	amalloy	->(inc 10)
23:10	sexpbot	⟹ 11
23:11	jk_	or arrow :)
23:11	amalloy	if you want to double-check, you can pit the bots against each other :)
23:12	jk_	amalloy: so your second formulation works because you closed over the set that was created without the quote. i really don't see anything different there than what hiredman was saying
23:12	jk_	passing it through the reader does actually create the set
23:13	jk_	amalloy: that is to say, your demo doesn't really address the quote question at all
23:13	amalloy	no, it doesn't. the quote question seems to work now, but i have no reason to think it's guaranteed
23:13	amalloy	unless i can find that in some docs
23:14	jk_	amalloy: i should add... according to my interpretation as a clojure newbie! not trying to pass myself off as very knowledgeable :)
23:15	laurus	Why is a floating point number rounded in operations rather than a java.math.BigDecimal number?
23:15	laurus	Er, when a java.math.BigDecimal number is not?
23:15	amalloy	jk: i'm just saying that the language definitions guarantee that if you close around a reference, that reference will stay the same; i don't know the language well enough to know if they specify that this works for constructing quoted values also
23:15	ninjudd	chouser: ping
23:16	amalloy	laurus: because floating-point numbers followw the IEEE floating-point spec, which says they only get to use N bits of precision
23:16	amalloy	BigDecimal is a class for when you want more than that
23:16	laurus	amalloy, what determines that N?
23:16	amalloy	laurus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_754-2008
23:18	amalloy	if floating-point numbers never got rounded, you couldn't divide 1 by 3; defining a standard point at which they round improves portability and consistency
23:18	laurus	amalloy, only if you demand that 1/3 become a decimal, right?
23:19	amalloy	and that's what floating-point numbers demans
23:19	amalloy	if you want something else, use ratios:
23:19	amalloy	,(/ 1 3)
23:19	clojurebot	1/3
23:19	laurus	So why isn't everything just BigDecimal then?
23:20	hiredman	bds are slower than primitives
23:21	laurus	I'm kind of not sure when to use each one
23:21	jk_	,(:a '{:a "aaa" :b "bbb"})
23:21	clojurebot	"aaa"
23:21	hiredman	floating point is icky so never
23:21	laurus	hiredman, so instead of 1.25 I should always write 1.25M?
23:21	jk_	that just doesn't seem right. :\
23:21	laurus	For example
23:22	amalloy	laurus: it depends on what you want. why is 1+1=2 instead of 11? either one is an operation that can be useful
23:22	hiredman	laurus: are youwriting a lot of floating point literals?
23:22	amalloy	if you want precision, use BDs or ratios
23:23	laurus	amalloy, right, that makes sense
23:23	laurus	hiredman, no, I'm reading _Practical Clojure_ and looking over my question marks :P
23:23	amalloy	laurus: but yeah, as hiredman implies, if you're using a lot of floating-point numbers then you'll probably know already what kind you want. if not, it usually won't matter
23:24	jk_	can someone explain why that works? (:a '{:a "aaa"}) how can that work when the quote should keep there from even being a map to work against?
23:24	amalloy	jk_: the quote just prevents anything inside it from being treated as a function
23:24	laurus	Thanks for the explanation of something so basic to programming :)
23:25	amalloy	(or as a variable)
23:25	amalloy	,(let [a 10] ['{:val a} {:val a}])
23:25	clojurebot	[{:val a} {:val 10}]
23:25	laurus	,(re-matches #"[a-zA-Z]* " "test123")
23:25	clojurebot	nil
23:25	abedra	is there another way to read metadata on a multimethod that I am missin
23:25	abedra	missing
23:25	jk_	amalloy: oh, ok. i see. it still gets evaluated
23:25	laurus	I don't understand why that doesn't match the string "test".
23:25	amalloy	laurus: you left a space after the *
23:26	abedra	other than (meta (var foo))
23:26	laurus	amalloy, yeah, I think that's a typo in the book
23:26	amalloy	,(re-matches #"[a-zA-Z]*" "test123")
23:26	clojurebot	nil
23:26	amalloy	hm. i guess i've never used re-matches
23:27	laurus	amalloy, "Returns the match, if any, of string to pattern, using java.util.regex.Matcher.matches()"
23:27	laurus	So that's a standard Java regex matcher apparently
23:28	amalloy	yeah, but it's been like five years since i used java for regexes :P
23:28	laurus	Me too ;)
23:28	laurus	Well, in my case, never :P
23:28	laurus	I'm so used to the Python regexs, which I think are basically the same as Perl and JavaScript
23:28	amalloy	http://download.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/api/java/util/regex/Matcher.html#matches%28%29
23:29	amalloy	matches() tests whether the whole thing matches
23:29	laurus	Ah, "the entire input sequence"
23:29	laurus	I mean, it's kind of obvious from the behavior it just showed, it's just hard to believe for someone steeped in the Perl-style regexes
23:29	amalloy	use find() instead
23:30	amalloy	,(re-find #"[a-z]+" "12test123")
23:30	clojurebot	"test"
23:31	amalloy	laurus: java uses PCRE. you won't find any surprises in how the regexes behave, just in the API to get at them
23:32	laurus	amalloy, oh, I see, thank you for that clarification
23:32	amalloy	(and since you're doing it from clojure, the APIs were going to be a surprise anyway!)
23:33	laurus	:)
23:33	amalloy	heh, there is something comically broken about lein repl when i boot into cygwin
23:34	amalloy	it works fine, and then when i C-d to get out of the repl, the prompt appears but refuses to accept input
23:35	laurus	Heh. I had a similar problem with a shell in Emacs I think
23:36	amalloy	i could boot into ubuntu but i'm already using windows...and for some reason the unix server at work isn't accepting ssh, so i'm stuck with cygwin
23:36	laurus	:\|
23:38	laurus	,(re-groups (re-matcher #"[a-zA-Z]*" "test"))
23:38	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: No match found
23:38	laurus	What's up with that?
23:40	amalloy	you need to ask the matcher to match something first
23:40	laurus	Ah, thanks.
23:41	laurus	I'm probably too tired to be doing this :P
23:41	laurus	"returns the groups from the most recent find/match" went right over my head :\|
23:41	amalloy	,(let [m (re-matcher #"a" "a")] (.lookingAt m) (re-groups m))
23:41	clojurebot	"a"
23:41	TeXnomancy	z_
23:41	amalloy	TeXnomancy: is that so
23:42	TeXnomancy	wups; baby on the keyboard
23:45	amalloy	where's the doc for clojurebot? i see people making him do cute tricks, but all i know is the ,expr syntax
23:45	amalloy	clojurebot: clojurebot?
23:45	clojurebot	clojurebot is not a benchmarking platform
23:46	amalloy	clojurebot: help?
23:46	clojurebot	help is http://clojure.org
23:46	laurus	,(re-groups (re-matcher #"(a)b" "ab"))
23:46	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalStateException: No match found
23:46	laurus	,(re-groups (re-find (re-matcher #"(a)b" "ab")))
23:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentVector cannot be cast to java.util.regex.Matcher
23:46	laurus	amalloy, what am I doing wrong?
23:47	amalloy	re-find is returning a vector of matches; re-groups expects a matcher
23:47	laurus	Right, but in the second-to-last thing I tried, I passed it a matcher
23:47	TeXnomancy	clojurebot: source?
23:47	clojurebot	source is http://github.com/hiredman/clojurebot/tree/master
23:47	amalloy	,(doto (re-matcher #"(a)b" "ab) (re-find) (re-groups))
23:47	clojurebot	EOF while reading string
23:47	TeXnomancy	if you squint from the right angle, it looks like documentation
23:49	amalloy	laurus: the second-last thing you tried, you passed it a matcher but hadn't asked it to match yet
23:49	amalloy	the last thing, you asked it to match and then passed it a vector
23:49	laurus	Ugh, okay.
23:50	amalloy	TeXnomancy: these commit messages are so helpful. i could probably learn how to use him without even opening a source file
23:53	laurus	amalloy, it's quite strange, re-matches requires a pattern and a string, but re-find can take those or a matcher.
23:53	laurus	Is that an inconsistency?
23:54	amalloy	well, by definition yes. but it's not a bad one
23:54	laurus	Why? :)
23:54	amalloy	re-matches only matches the whole string, so there's no point keeping the matcher around
23:54	amalloy	re-find will keep getting new matches if you pass it the same matcher, until it runs out
23:54	laurus	Oh, because it'll always return nil for the next one
23:55	laurus	Right.
23:55	laurus	Thanks. I think I'd better go to sleep.
23:55	laurus	Something tells me I would have realized a lot more of this if I'd done it a few hours ago :P
23:55	hiredman	my sarcasm hilight went off for this channel
23:56	laurus	Good night everyone!
23:56	laurus	And thanks again amalloy :)
23:57	amalloy	haha
23:57	amalloy	how do i set one of those up, hiredman
23:59	hiredman	with great fortitude and endurance