#clojure – 2010-09-24

2010-09-24

00:07	technomancy	grrr... using ant as a library is like building a castle out of sand
00:07	ninjudd	tell me about it
00:08	technomancy	apparently it just plain ignores the spawn option on the subprocess launching
00:08	ninjudd	which task? Javac.
00:08	technomancy	"Look ant, I need you to fork a subprocess that outlasts the parent." / "Cool story bro. Listen, I'm gonna do my own thing over here..."
00:08	technomancy	just plain Java
00:10	ninjudd	hmm
00:11	ninjudd	isn't that what you use to fork your project jvm?
00:11	technomancy	well normally I don't want the forked process to outlast the parent
00:12	technomancy	but I realized it wouldn't be hard to have it start a background server
00:12	technomancy	err--it wouldn't be hard if ant behaved as advertised
00:12	ninjudd	are you writing a persistent jvm.
00:13	technomancy	I'm expanding the repl server to work in the background
00:13	technomancy	I guess so?
00:13	ninjudd	you have fork=true and spawn=true, right?
00:13	technomancy	right
00:13	technomancy	but the parent JVM just quits and takes the child with it
00:14	ninjudd	and you aren't using any of the other opts that aren't compatible with spawn?
00:15	technomancy	right; I had failOnError set, but I turned that off when it complained
00:16	ninjudd	i could swear I got that working before I decided to launch both jvms from ruby
00:17	technomancy	maybe it's fixed in a newer ant
00:17	Bahman	Hi all!
00:17	ninjudd	perhaps. docs say it doesn't work with input, output, error, result and timeout...
00:21	ninjudd	could you use Runtime.exec directly?
00:22	technomancy	according to the ant mailing list they had to work around a hell of a lot of edge cases in Runtime.exec
00:23	technomancy	of course, apparently they missed at least one
00:23	ninjudd	hehe
00:24	ninjudd	I use ant 1.8.1. you may want to try that
00:27	technomancy	oh, I thought 1.7.1 was the latest... will try that
00:28	ninjudd	I think there is 1.8.2
00:28	ninjudd	not sure why I'm not using it though
00:34	TheBusby	I've actually had a lot of trouble with Java process spawning recently. Final solution ended up being using JNI.
00:56	technomancy	at least with smalltalk you could forgive it for pretending like Unix didn't exist because it was so old
00:57	technomancy	that excuse really doesn't work for the JVM
01:04	sandGorgon	hi guys... wanted to prototype a document store like functionality in clojure. basically a clojure server would be running on a remote machine, I request for a (guaranteed) unique filename and it returns a one-time URL that I can retrieve the files from. Later I'm gonna bolt on authentication and all that stuff
01:04	sandGorgon	I'm confused on the first step - to build the clojure "server" would I have to use a web framework like compojure ?
01:06	amalloy	sandGorgon: i'm not an expert here (so don't take my advice!), but you certainly don't have to. if you wanted, you could instantiate the java.net.ServerSocket yourself
01:07	sandGorgon	amalloy, true - I was kinda hoping one layer of abstraction above it. my first thought was compojure, then I thought of ring, now I'm thinking of something using Aleph/Netty. But wanted to get idead
01:07	sandGorgon	s/idead/ideas/
01:07	sexpbot	<sandGorgon> amalloy, true - I was kinda hoping one layer of abstraction above it. my first thought was compojure, then I thought of ring, now I'm thinking of something using Aleph/Netty. But wanted to get ideas
01:09	amalloy	somewhere around here i have a copy of my first clojure program, which was a simple chat server. compojure or ring or something is almost certainly better, but i don't have experience with any of them
01:09	TheBusby	technomancy: I fought with the JVM's processing spawning for quite a bit before going JNI. The worst part is what works for one platform doesn't work for another, hence the JNI route...
01:10	technomancy	TheBusby: yeah... honestly I only bothered because it looked like it would be really easy
01:11	technomancy	I'm not sure it's worth the hassle at this point just to be able to do TDD outside swank
01:11	sandGorgon	amalloy, actually the reason why it might be a bit different is that it might well be a multi-gigabyte file. So you dont want to drop down to socket level and have to deal with fillng up of posix buffers and all that.
01:11	technomancy	maybe someone who doesn't use swank could implement it. =)
01:13	TheBusby	I think it took me about 20 minutes to implement what I needed, but I had some skeleton code (using fork and execvp) to work with.
01:15	amalloy	github gist
01:15	amalloy	argh. wrong window :P
01:18	amalloy	sandGorgon: anyway http://gist.github.com/594895 if you want to use it as a comparison vs ring or some other tool
01:19	sandGorgon	amalloy, hey thanks!!
01:20	technomancy	(re-pattern (format "(?:^\|/)%s/" pat)) <= what's all that punctuation about?
01:23	amalloy	technomancy: ^ indicates start of line, and / is a literal. they're separated by \|, which is OR; those are wrapped in (?:) to get proper grouping - the ?: prevents it from stomping on your capturing groups
01:24	technomancy	amalloy: ah, thanks. I hadn't seen ?: before; handy.
01:24	amalloy	so it looks to be matching "foo/" or "anything/foo", but not "myfoo"
01:25	nroot7	clojure documentation mentions many functions to be side effect free. How does the compiler verify that ? Is it just a convention ?
01:25	amalloy	technomancy: http://www.regular-expressions.info/tutorial.html is a superb resource for learning both basics and nuances, if you're getting into a lot of regexes
01:25	amalloy	nroot7: just convention. the compiler has no idea
01:25	sandGorgon	amalloy, ah.. I was thinking that the ? was for a non-greedy match
01:27	amalloy	heh. ? means about a hundred things depending on where in the regex it is
02:07	Bahman	Hi all!
03:07	LauJensen	Good morning all
03:10	amalloy	silly europeans, claiming it's morning
03:12	LauJensen	clojurebot: UGT?
03:12	clojurebot	ugt is Universal Greeting Time: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
03:12	LauJensen	silly uneducated americans, thinking I was referring to time
03:14	nlogax	also, there's no timezone exclusive to europe
03:24	Raynes	It's morning in the USA.
03:24	Raynes	At least, my clock says AM.
05:18	fliebel	morning
05:18	mrBliss	morning fliebel
05:19	fliebel	What is the usual path to follow when lein deps is missing something?
05:19	fliebel	(junit 4.7 in this case I believe)
05:20	mrBliss	make sure your dependency vector is correct: http://jarvana.com/jarvana/archive-details/junit/junit/4.7/junit-4.7.jar
05:22	fliebel	It's not exactly my vector, rather the Overtone one. And even then, it is a dependency of a dependency, because Overtone itself does not depend on junit.
05:23	mrBliss	fliebel: good luck :)
05:24	fliebel	mrBliss: Thanks :( I guess I'll just ask on the Overtone mailing list, after I tried some more.
05:59	fliebel	mrBliss: Deleting .m2 fixed it for some reason :-\|
06:11	Hoornet	Hello
06:12	Raynes	Hi.
06:14	esj	wotcha
06:21	esj	was it something I said ? :(
07:53	LauJensen	Anybody here living in London ?
07:58	mccraig	LauJensen: i work there
08:08	esj	I live up the way in Cambridge
08:13	LauJensen	esj: Im in priv with mccraig trying to extract some information :)
08:13	esj	All you need to know is that London is big and smell :)
08:14	LauJensen	I don't remember any specific smell, just that its huge and difficult to get around in
08:18	esj	yes, I served a two year term there, happily I am now paroled.
08:25	bobo_	is there any good tutorial on testing your java code with clojure? setting up the project and so on?
09:11	fliebel	Hey, what are naming conventions in Clojure? I figured out dashed-style is preferred and question-mark? is used for booleans, but how about *stars and -dashes?
09:12	esj	fliebel: I think ear-muffs are often for dynamic vars, and -dashes for private functions
09:13	fliebel	esj: -main has a dash, and in java that's public static void main IIRC.
09:13	chouser	never seen a leading star. trailing star is like a "prime tick" in math -- foo is something, foo* is related but different. sometimes a macro vs. a function that does something similar
09:13	fliebel	chouser: Yea, I meant things like fn*
09:13	chouser	yes, ear-muffs are for vars -- things that are meant to be rebound using (binding ...)
09:14	chouser	leading dash is for functions that are acting as methods for genclass. Note (defn- foo ...) is for a private foo which is different than (defn -foo ...) which is likely a public method of a class.
09:15	chouser	fliebel: yeah fn* is the real special operator, related to fn which is a macro
09:16	fliebel	okay… so, recap: changable-var low-level-stuff* -java-method bollean?
09:16	esj	-dashes.... yes I'm confusing myself with defn-. Apologies.
09:17	AndChat-	.
09:17	esj	or rather: predicate?
09:17	fliebel	esj: Yea, nicer word :)
09:17	chouser	I use ? for boolean locals too. I think that's ok.
09:18	chouser	as in (let [inside? (< low x high)] ... (if inside? ...))
09:18	fliebel	Talking about private functions, why would you want to do that? Except for keeping the ns clean and for "setters"
09:19	esj	chouser: cool.
09:21	chouser	fliebel: I think "ns clean" is too dismissive. A public API carries weight -- it should be clean yes but also documented, slow to change, conceptually aligned with how users are supposed to think about the problem space, free of implementation-specific details, etc.
09:21	chouser	private functions don't need to meet any of those criteria, so it's worth being clear about which is which.
09:22	fliebel	chouser: Right… I'll think about making my bad ass macro a bit more friendly.
09:22	chouser	note they're not even as private as Java private methods -- you can always get at a private var from another ns if you know its name.
09:22	chouser	actually, you can discover it's name easily too.
09:23	fliebel	chouser: I did that to Ring the other day… I needed something in their lower levels.
09:23	chouser	fliebel: right, good, and you're aware of the risks involved.
09:23	fliebel	chouser: Probably not… Only thing I can think of is that they change it becasue it's private anyway.
09:24	chouser	fliebel: right, that's it.
09:24	chouser	it's behavior, name, interface may change without notice
09:25	chouser	if you think your use of it is legit I'd recommend asking for it to be made public.
09:25	fliebel	I'm not using it anymore
09:26	fliebel	My use was completely unrelated to Ring, it just happend to contain the exact thing I needed.
09:28	fliebel	Huh, am I allowed to do this? (defn a [] (defn b []))
09:29	fliebel	That'd mean I don't need to make a macro at all to define some crazy function.
09:30	fliebel	I'm trying to do this badd ass macro in a proper way: http://github.com/pepijndevos/utterson/blob/develop/src/utterson/compile.clj#L55
09:34	lpetit	fliebel: I really don't understand your problem with (defn a [] (defn b [])) which could be solved by a macro.
09:34	lpetit	can you repeat slowly for me please ? :-)
09:34	chouser	def-anything inside a fn is generally not a "proper way"
09:34	fliebel	lpetit: The point is that I though one wa supposed to use a macro for this, but evaluating that just yieald b
09:35	fliebel	chouser: Right...
09:35	chouser	fliebel: you won't be able to give the name of 'b' from an argument of 'a'
09:35	lpetit	I can't see why (defn a [] (defn b [])) could be useful at all
09:35	fliebel	chouser: I also realized that...
09:35	chouser	you could try using intern, though.
09:36	fliebel	I'll just do it the normal way and break it up in fns and a macro for defining it.
09:36	chouser	(defn a [tname] (intern ns tname (fn ...)))
09:37	chouser	but .. looking at your defgen I doubt that'll work for you either.
09:39	fliebel	chouser: So what do you suggest, if anything?
09:43	fliebel	I think I'll split it up in 3 functions and one macro
09:44	chouser	yeah, I'd try to have the macro emit as little code as possible.
09:45	pjstadig	,36r16
09:45	clojurebot	42
09:45	chouser	looks like it'll need markdown# to redefine your template# a couple times
09:45	pjstadig	1r2
09:45	pjstadig	,1r2
09:45	clojurebot	Radix out of range
09:45	pjstadig	,3r16
09:45	clojurebot	For input string: "16"
09:45	pjstadig	:-(
09:46	pjstadig	,2r1
09:46	clojurebot	1
09:46	fliebel	chouser: Yea, I need to come up with a decent plan to spread the data to the right places across those fns
09:46	chouser	and maybe put your template of ~@others in a local fn.
09:46	pjstadig	hmm i guess the radix comes first?
09:47	pjstadig	,3r12
09:47	clojurebot	5
09:47	chouser	so then the body of the let you emit can just be (gen* markdown# template# othersfn#)
09:56	fliebel	chouser: Would it be good style to define some fo those functions in a lot, so they can access common data?
09:56	fliebel	*let
09:57	chouser	fliebel: not sure exactly what you mean, but it doesn't sound bad. :-)
09:57	fliebel	chouser (let [common data] (defn a []) (defn b[]))
09:58	chouser	that'll only work if common data is entirely global
09:58	fliebel	true
10:15	chouser	would it be dumb to have a pom.xml editor? perhaps an emacs mode or a little command-line utility that wraps up common configurations?
10:15	technomancy	lein includes a sexp->pom.xml translator, in essence
10:16	chouser	yeah, I guess I'm thinking something two-way
10:16	hugod	it would be great not to maintain seperate project.clj and pom files
10:16	chouser	in case you use an IDE to adjust the pom.xml or something.
10:16	technomancy	hugod: if you need something in pom.xml that project.clj currently doesn't support it should be easy to add
10:17	technomancy	I've been thinking about adding a maven plugins section so you can do "lein pom && mvn myplugin:action" easily
10:17	chouser	lein is happy to depend on projects that provide pom.xml but not project.clj, right?
10:17	technomancy	chouser: definitely
10:18	technomancy	once something is on clojars, project.clj is not even taken into account; the pom is the only thing that matters
10:18	hugod	technomancy: there is rather a lot I fear http://github.com/hugoduncan/pallet/blob/master/pom.xml
10:18	technomancy	hugod: eh; it wouldn't be too much work to add
10:19	hugod	technomancy: good to hear :)
10:19	technomancy	profiles, plugins, and developer lists; it's all just a matter of adding the appropriate .addProfile etc. calls to the maven java API
10:19	Raynes	My eyes!
10:20	technomancy	though I'm really not sure of the purpose of the latter
10:20	chouser	btw, lein cake and maven all feel less superfluous to me since I've started thinking of them as classpath management tools rather than "build" tools
10:21	hugod	technomancy: I tend to agree with you on that
10:21	chouser	superfluous isn't quite the right word
10:22	shoover	chouser: I'm curious how you manage dependencies without those tools. Do you download jars the old fashioned way and stash them somewhere?
10:23	shoover	Or write everything from scratch depending only on clojure.jar? ;)
10:23	chouser	shoover: essentially yes. Well, I've got two different "systems", neither very impressive.
10:23	technomancy	chouser: indeed; "building" a jar is the trivial part
10:23	technomancy	classpath management is the #1 faq for newbies coming in
10:24	chouser	for work we already have an extensive build system using cmake (do not recommend), so I plugged clojure into that. The generated makefiles fetch dependencies and then we have a shell script that sets up the classpath and launches the appropriate Java class.
10:24	raek	http://clojure.github.com/clojure/ <-- what happened to clojure.test and friends?
10:25	chouser	for my own hacking around, I had started working up a system of jar directories, one per clojure major version plus a "common" one. So to start using a jar I'd just download it into the appropriate dir, launch the appropriate clojure repl version, and go.
10:26	chouser	of course this is both too complex and too simplistic.
10:26	Raynes	chouser: Insanity.
10:26	shoover	chouser: I see
10:27	chouser	shoover: but you're right -- I tend to depend on few libs in practice. java core, clojure core, and contrib covers 90% of what I play with.
10:27	chouser	dabbling with ring was painful with my setup. I definitely need to use one of these dep management things.
10:27	anonymouse89	j git
10:27	anonymouse89	oops
10:27	shoover	chouser: oh yeah, lots of little jars in the http world
10:28	chouser	so maybe after finger trees...
10:29	chouser	but see after that I'm likely to be messing around with clojure-in-clojure stuff, and then maybe clojurescript, etc. None of these have deps outside of clojure.
10:29	technomancy	chouser: so right after I give my lein talk at the conj then? nice timing =)
10:29	chouser	technomancy: yep. and maybe I'll look at eclipse right after lpetit is done talking...
10:29	chouser	clojure-conj fascilitates my laziness
10:30	AWizzArd	When I have a :gen-class'ed namespace, and :state s, and want somewhere in that file/NS to access .s then I get a reflection warning. Exists there a way to type-hint it?
10:30	chouser	AWizzArd: sure, just hint it to the class you're gen'ing
10:31	shoover	chouser: I can't imagine doing anything not involving a couch and a tv after writing a book
10:31	AWizzArd	chouser: that would be the NS itself.
10:31	chouser	AWizzArd: no, the namespace is not a class
10:32	chouser	though they are generally named similarly, yes.
10:32	AWizzArd	chouser: to AOT that class I used a (:gen-class ...) in the (ns my-ns) form.
10:35	AWizzArd	chouser: one sec, I will post an example
10:36	cemerick	man, there was a nasty little locals-clearing bug in 1.1.0 :-/
10:37	AWizzArd	http://paste.lisp.org/display/114852
10:37	AWizzArd	When I try to compile this I get a ClassNotFoundException: bar.Foos
10:37	AWizzArd	without the type hint I get two reflection warnings
10:40	chouser	AWizzArd: you have to compile for :gen-class to work
10:41	chouser	also, why are you using gen-class to implement intefraces instead of deftype or reify?
10:41	chouser	interfaces
10:41	AWizzArd	This is just a demo
10:41	chouser	ok
10:41	chouser	so yeah, you have to use compile. when I (compile 'bar.Foos) it works fine
10:41	chouser	giving only a reflection warning for the .s you didn't hint.
10:44	AWizzArd	okay good
10:44	AWizzArd	I was confused because I got those warnings in Emacs, when loading this NS.
10:45	chouser	yes, I understand emacs can be confusing.
10:45	chouser	sorry, couldn't resist. bad chouser!
10:46	AWizzArd	chouser: g
10:47	rfgpfeiffer_	can a deftype type have static methods?
10:49	chouser	rfgpfeiffer: no, just use regular clojure functions for that
10:58	technomancy	hmmm... might be time to drop test-is support in the next leiningen release. =)
10:58	fliebel	Given the fact that Clojure-in-Clojure is possible, it is thus possible to define lazy seqs. Would it also be possible to define a lazy seq where the 0th element is actually in the middle of an infinite lazy seq extending in both ways? so like (iterate inc) with negative number included :)
10:59	technomancy	you can't rebind a dynamically-referenced var, can you?
10:59	technomancy	I mean, without evaling a binding call
11:00	chouser	fliebel: ISeq only provides an API for walking forwards. You'd need a different interface for walking the other direction.
11:02	fliebel	chouser: Hrm :( that means I'll be unable to use with with existing functions, right?
11:04	chouser	fliebel: well, what existing function do you intend to call to get item before 'first'?
11:04	fliebel	chouser: Dunno… I mean, if I'm not using ISeq, I can;t even use first, right?
11:05	chouser	well, your theoretical bidirectional lazy seq could implement ISeq for going forward
11:05	fliebel	chouser: Oh wait, Java, so I can implement ISeq and add my own interface and fns for going the other way.
11:07	fliebel	chouser: How about this… you define a lazy seq like iterate but with 2 fns, for going in either direction. then you call spin on it to change which direction you're seqing over :)
11:08	fliebel	so spin = reverse for lazy seqs
11:08	chouser	hm, interesting.
11:09	chouser	I don't see why not.
11:09	fliebel	chouser: So, what Clojure bits do I need to implement that?
11:10	chouser	a deftype and ... a function?
11:10	fliebel	looks up deftype
11:17	chouser	actually, just a deftype would do, though it's not quite as pretty.
11:17	fliebel	chouser: I don't think I get it.
11:18	chouser	(rseq (rest (drop 10 (IterBi. 0 inc dec)))) ;=> (5 4 3 2 1 0 -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 ...)
11:18	anonymouse89	I'm having trouble with this:
11:18	anonymouse89	,(let [add '(+)] (apply (first add) (range 10)))
11:18	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (10) passed to: Symbol
11:18	anonymouse89	I would like it to be equivalent to (apply + (range 10))
11:18	chouser	anonymouse89: try (list +) instead of '(+)
11:19	anonymouse89	chouser: nice
11:19	chouser	,(class (first '(+)))
11:19	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Symbol
11:19	chouser	,(fn? (first '(+)))
11:19	clojurebot	false
11:19	chouser	,(fn? (first (list +)))
11:19	clojurebot	true
11:20	anonymouse89	I thought '(0 1 2) could be thought of as an unevaluated sequence not as a symbol
11:20	chouser	it is an unevaluated sequence, but the contents are unevaluated as well
11:20	chouser	so + in that case is just a symbol.
11:21	anonymouse89	chouser: that makes sense, thanks
11:21	chouser	if you want to look up what function + refers to, you have to evaluate the symbol
11:22	chouser	fliebel: so that's what you wanted, right? intersting idea.
11:22	fliebel	chouser: I understand how I can do without the fn, but I don't understand deftype.
11:22	chouser	actually, you don't need deftype either. you could use reify or proxy if you prefer, and a normal function.
11:23	fliebel	chouser: I never worked with those 1.2 things before. So it's going to be a lot of learning… :)
11:24	chouser	fliebel: so... how shall we proceed? You want to see my code or should I try to drop hints or ask leading questions?
11:24	fliebel	the later one :) extended with my guessing and reading
11:25	fliebel	chouser: So I basically need to look up the ISeq interface and overwrite a few methods?
11:25	chouser	ok, so how would you use deftype or reify to implement an ISeq that just repeats the same value over and over
11:25	chouser	?
11:26	fliebel	Where can I find the ISeq interface?
11:26	chouser	I do (show clojure.lang.ISeq)
11:26	fliebel	Unable to resolve symbol: show in this context
11:26	edw	I'm a longtime Emacs user and Scheme programmer and I'm trying to get Emacs set up to play nice with Clojure (1.2) and I the best guide I can find is a mailing list message from Constantine Vetoshev and I get an error when following along with that. Is there a definitive SLIME/Clojure guide out there somewhere?
11:26	chouser	fliebel: :-( rhickey took my 'source' fn, but not my 'show'
11:27	chouser	fliebel: show is clojure.contrib.repl-utils/show
11:27	fliebel	chouser: Ah, I use source quite often, but that doesn't work on Java stuff I guess.
11:27	dnolen	edw: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started_with_Emacs
11:27	edw	dnolen: Thank you!
11:28	chouser	fliebel: http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/ISeq.java
11:28	edw	Oh gawd, it uses ELPA?! I didn't have good luck with that!
11:28	dnolen	edw: the trick is that you only need to install swank-clojure
11:29	Raynes	ELPA is the standard way of setting this stuff up to work for Clojure. It's all tested and known to work.
11:29	dnolen	edw: the main trouble you might run into is if you have existing Lisp configurations
11:29	edw	dnolen: Ah. I was getting all sorts of dependency errors when installing slime using it. Should I clean out any existing SLIME installations?
11:30	dnolen	edw: I would. Don't bother installing anything but swank-clojure, ignore slime, slime-repl, clojure-mode. There's a bug in the install process. installing swank-clojure will grab everything you need.
11:31	fliebel	chouser: I guess it'd be (reify clojure.lang.ISeq (first [this] 1)) but that fails
11:31	dnolen	edw: you will need to wipe anything clojure related from your .emacs.d/elpa before installing swank-clojure
11:31	fliebel	ah wait
11:31	edw	dnolen: Thanks again. Cleaning out my .emacs (and .emacs.d) right now.
11:32	fliebel	chouser: Do I need to implement all of them? Or can I just use a concrete subclass of ISeq?
11:33	dnolen	edw: np
11:33	chouser	fliebel: just implment the ones you need for now. What happens when you call 'first' on your reify there?
11:33	chouser	Then when happens when you call 'next'?
11:34	fliebel	chouser: I get java.lang.AbstractMethodError when defining it, because ISeq is an abstract interface.
11:34	fliebel	(i think)
11:34	chouser	fliebel: are you sure that's why?
11:34	chouser	did you try (first (reify ...)) ?
11:35	fliebel	chouser: Hm, that works, but just defining it fails.
11:35	fliebel	chouser: Ah, repl evaluates
11:36	chouser	yep, and after E is P
11:36	fliebel	?
11:36	chouser	REPL
11:36	fliebel	ah
11:36	chouser	and printing a seq means walking it an printing each of the items. we're not ready for that.
11:37	fliebel	I see
11:37	chouser	so, (first ...) works. what about (next ...)?
11:37	fliebel	let me try..
11:39	fliebel	(next [this] this)
11:39	fliebel	Okay, but I have no idea what more and cons are about.
11:40	chouser	fliebel: ignore them for now.
11:40	chouser	so, (first ...) and (first (next ...)) work now, right?
11:40	fliebel	yea, but not doing second on it still gives me the error.
11:41	chouser	it's a shame it doesn't tell you the specific method it's trying to call that fails.
11:41	chouser	you can discover it by looking up the line of source code it mentions and seeing what method it's calling.
11:42	fliebel	It doesn't even give a line or file:
11:42	fliebel	java.lang.AbstractMethodError
11:42	fliebel	(
11:42	fliebel	that's all
11:42	chouser	yeah
11:42	chouser	oh, (.printStackTrace *e) or (pst) on clojure 1.3.0 alpha 1 will show you more
11:42	chouser	but not enough.
11:42	fliebel	I'm not on the alpha
11:43	chouser	right, so use (.printStackTrace *e)
11:43	chouser	so I'll just tell you -- the REPL calls your .seq method during printing.
11:44	chouser	seq must return an ISeq ... can implement that?
11:44	fliebel	But seq isn't in ISeq, or is that up in IPersistentCollection?
11:44	chouser	fliebel: IPersistentCollection
11:45	fliebel	No, Sequential I guess
11:45	chouser	but you can put it under ISeq in your reify
11:46	fliebel	I know, but I need to know it's… how do you call that...
11:47	chouser	http://github.com/clojure/clojure/blob/master/src/jvm/clojure/lang/Seqable.java#L16
11:47	fliebel	right… Now I made it return a list. It prints that and then gives the same error.
11:48	chouser	yeah. so that final error is it calling equiv. not sure why
11:49	fliebel	hm…. Do we need to fix that?
11:49	chouser	probably not
11:49	chouser	so, what do you have so far?
11:49	fliebel	A ISeq that returns 1s
11:50	fliebel	(reify clojure.lang.ISeq (first [this] 1) (next [this] this) (seq [this] (list 1 2 3)))
11:50	fliebel	Maybe I could make seq return a cons of first and rest, but then I'd need to define that as well
11:50	chouser	,(reify clojure.lang.ISeq (first [this] 1) (next [this] this) (seq [this] (list 1 2 3)))
11:50	clojurebot	(1 2 3)
11:50	technomancy	there's no zeroconf stack for the JVM, is there?
11:51	technomancy	that would be great for conj shenanigans...
11:51	chouser	fliebel: do you have an ISeq handy already for your 'seq' to return?
11:52	fliebel	this?
11:52	clojurebot	this is not a bug
11:52	chouser	fliebel: what happens when you try it?
11:53	fliebel	I guess it'll get stuck
11:53	mrBliss	there's (quote ..) for ', what's the function for `?
11:53	chouser	mrBliss: doesn't exist. ` is implemented differently
11:54	fliebel	chouser: It does get stuck, but doing take 10 gives java.lang.AbstractMethodError again
11:54	chouser	,(read-string "1(foo)")
11:54	clojurebot	1
11:54	mrBliss	chouser: too bad, now I have to wrap it in (fn [] ..)
11:54	chouser	,(read-string "`(foo)")
11:54	clojurebot	(clojure.core/seq (clojure.core/concat (clojure.core/list (quote sandbox/foo))))
11:55	jashmenn	hey, one more question to add to the mix: if i compile and import a gen-class from the repl, is there a way to reload the gen'd class without restarting the jvm?
11:55	chouser	fliebel: you're in a plain REPL or in slime or what?
11:55	jashmenn	(my code: http://gist.github.com/595569)
11:55	fliebel	cake
11:55	chouser	fliebel: cake and a terminal?
11:56	fliebel	okay, just the terminal prints a lot of 1 :)
11:56	chouser	good job!
11:56	fliebel	but take 10 doesn't work yet
11:56	chouser	take is calling your (unimplemented) rest method
11:57	chouser	er, 'more', rather
11:57	fliebel	I keep forgetting the difference between next and rest...
11:57	fliebel	and I don't know more at all :P
11:57	ubii	looking to get back into clojure after a 9 month hiatus and have the following questions
11:58	fliebel	chouser: There arn't any docstrings on ISeq :(
11:58	ubii	1) I am still very much a newbie and am wondering if I should stick with 1.2 or go ahead and check out 1.3
11:58	chouser	the difference between more (called by clojure.core/rest) and next only matters when being very careful about nearly vs. complete laziness.
11:58	ohpauleez	fliebel: new rest is almost always what you want, except when you don't
11:59	chouser	that is, we don't really care much. So what happens if youre 'more' is the same as your 'next'?
11:59	esj	ubii: i'd stick with 1.2, its still pretty new :)
11:59	andyfingerhut	ubil: You'll likely have less confusion with 1.2. More tested with other add-ons
11:59	fliebel	chouser: Works :)
11:59	ubii	2) should I install clojure via the zip files, source(github), or use Leiningen?
12:00	chouser	fliebel: congrats!
12:00	mrBliss	ubii: leiningen or cake
12:00	ohpauleez	ubii: I agree with 1.2, but if you want to play with some of the new stuff, and can deal with some exceptions now and then, 1.3 has been fine for me
12:00	mrBliss	ubii: or cljr for a standalone repl to play with
12:00	fliebel	chouser: I know how to reverse it :D
12:00	ohpauleez	ubii: what mrBliss said
12:00	chouser	fliebel: :-{
12:00	chouser	fliebel: :-P
12:01	chouser	fliebel: ok, but you want to apply a function instead of just repeating, right? how would you do that?
12:02	fliebel	chouser: Hey, my ISeq doesn't implement clojure.lang.Reversible
12:02	chouser	fliebel: hm, what are going to do about that?
12:02	ubii	3) which editor (emacs, vi) or IDE do most of you use and what would you recommend?
12:03	Raynes	Emacs is the most used, followed by vi and the IDE plugins.
12:03	Raynes	I did a poll a while back, which was further confirmed by cemerick's poll not too long ago.
12:03	fliebel	chouser: I don't think reify allows me to define multiple ancestors :(
12:03	chouser	there are about as many emacs users as non-emacs users
12:03	chouser	fliebel: I would not have led you astray
12:04	fliebel	chouser: Can I nest reifies? :P
12:04	Raynes	Wasn't it like 62% of Clojurians using Emacs?
12:04	chouser	fliebel: yes, but that's not what you want here.
12:04	fliebel	Nope :(
12:05	chouser	fliebel: according to the deftype docs, "Each spec consists of..."?
12:05	andyfingerhut	Emacs is free as in beer, free as in libre, but if you are new to it, it costs some time :-) It was new for me a long time ago...
12:05	fliebel	ah...
12:06	chouser	Raynes: oh, you're right. 70%
12:08	andyfingerhut	chouser: So did you understand Haskell somewhat well before reading the published paper on finger trees?
12:08	fliebel	chouser: I added clojure.lang.Reversible (rev [this] this) but it still says Can't define method not in interfaces: rev
12:09	fliebel	huh…. I need to define rseq, but rseq calls rev
12:09	fliebel	,(source rseq)
12:09	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
12:10	fliebel	no. wait...
12:10	chouser	fliebel: yeah, I did that first too.
12:11	fliebel	chouser: (. rev (rseq)) what is this?
12:11	fliebel	Why the parens abround rseq?
12:12	chouser	fliebel: ancient syntax. the same as (.rseq rev)
12:12	fliebel	lol
12:12	fliebel	Okay, so now for the real thing :)
12:15	fliebel	chouser: Can we go somewhat more down the inheritacne tree to find something that covers the basics? Or do we need everything customized anyway?
12:19	chouser	fliebel: reify doesn't let you inherit from anything but pure methods.
12:22	anonymouse89	,(quote (first '(0 1 2)))
12:22	clojurebot	(first (quote (0 1 2)))
12:22	fliebel	you mean interfaces?
12:23	anonymouse89	why does this happen?
12:24	fliebel	chouser: So what is next?
12:24	andyfingerhut	anonymous89: If you mean "why does the ' change to (quote ...)?" it is because that is what ' is defined to mean.
12:25	anonymouse89	andyfingerhut: oh, duh the repl is just taking the outside quote off
12:29	mrBliss	I've written a lazy-let macro which doesn't evaluate any of its bindings until they are needed, handy when you're dealing with many conditional bindings. http://gist.github.com/595634
12:30	mrBliss	s/written/hacked together ;-)
12:30	chouser	fliebel: sorry, distracted.
12:30	fliebel	nvm
12:31	ohpauleez	mrBliss: I like that substitute
12:32	fliebel	chouser: Did you mean present or past?
12:33	chouser	fliebel: I'm on the phone at work.
12:33	fliebel	work? oh right… timezones, I'm sorry
12:34	stuartsierra	1.3.0-alpha1 artifacts deployed... let the carping commence!
12:35	ohpauleez	stuartsierra: haha
12:35	ohpauleez	stuartsierra: btw, really loving lazytest stuff
12:35	stuartsierra	awesome
12:35	stuartsierra	Speaking of Lazytest
12:35	stuartsierra	I'm thinking of releasing 1.0.0 final today.
12:35	ohpauleez	yes!
12:35	ohpauleez	please do
12:36	stuartsierra	Anybody have any bug reports before that goes out?
12:36	andyfingerhut	carping: Why wasn't this ready when Rich asked us to try out 1.3? Why is it alpha1? Why am I losing my hair?
12:36	stuartsierra	andyfingerhut: What?
12:37	technomancy	consult your healthcare provider if you experience hair loss in conjunction with upgrading to Clojure 1.3
12:37	andyfingerhut	Sorry, just wanted to commence the carping in a silly fashion. Should have added :-)
12:37	stuartsierra	As I understand from Stu Halloway & Rich, the plan is to release more frequent alphas to get more people to test out new features without having to depend on SNAPSHOT versions.
12:37	esj	stuartsierra: quick question - is there any intent to add a test coverage tool ?
12:37	stuartsierra	esj: Sure, want to write one? :)
12:38	technomancy	esj: do you know about radagast?
12:38	ubii	thx for the answers
12:38	esj	stuartsierra: would love to - unsure you would though. Care to supervise ?
12:38	esj	technomancy: googling.
12:38	ubii	sorry, got tied up with dealing with a client request
12:39	esj	technomancy: now I do ! I'll go play with it, thanks.
12:39	stuartsierra	esj: It doesn't interest me a great deal. I think doing it "properly" would require instrumenting the JVM.
12:40	ubii	regarding Emacs, which is the preferred method for installing/configuring clojure-mode, slime, and swank-clojure?
12:40	technomancy	stuartsierra: radagast offers coarse-grained test coverage, but for branch-level you'd have to hack the compiler
12:40	andyfingerhut	If you haven't done it before, ELPA
12:40	stuartsierra	ubii: Sacrifices of fattened animals generally help.
12:40	esj	ubii: ELPA, as per technomancy's guide.
12:40	stuartsierra	technomancy: Yeah, that's what I meant.
12:41	esj	technomancy: 35 lines...
12:41	stuartsierra	It would be an interesting dive into the Clojure compiler, but I think the effort would far outweigh the reward.
12:41	technomancy	stuartsierra: especially when coarse-grained coverage is trivial to implement
12:41	stuartsierra	yeah
12:42	stuartsierra	So if anybody wants to play with integrating radagast with Lazytest, I'll try to help out.
12:42	ohpauleez	stuartsierra: I might be into that
12:42	stuartsierra	cool
12:42	ohpauleez	If I get anywhere, I'll ping you
12:43	stuartsierra	ok
12:43	fliebel	chouser: I need to prepare dinner. I'll talk to you about reify later. Thanks for helping me. I'm now struggling with where to keep state and how to modify things withouy an endless recursion.
12:43	chouser	fliebel: yep. hint: fn args are state
12:44	ubii	http://technomancy.us/126 - is this the correct url to the guide?
12:44	technomancy	ubii: try "getting started with Emacs" on the official Assembla wiki
12:45	ubii	cool, thx all
12:49	andyfingerhut	Are there "inner deftypes" that are analogous to Java inner classes?
12:49	stuartsierra	Ack!
12:50	chouser	andyfingerhut: there's reify
12:51	andyfingerhut	chouser: I ask because I was thinking of how one could modify your finger trees without having a meter-obj in every deftype'd object in a whole tree.
12:51	chouser	andyfingerhut: yeah, I mentioned an alternative in a recent email
12:52	chouser	...passing in the meter as an arg to methods that use it, and relying on some outter context to provide the correct one every time.
12:52	chouser	I didn't have outer contexts before, but my most recent commit adds a couple examples
12:54	andyfingerhut	ok. It is just that so many of the methods need it. I'm not advocating for inner deftypes, but they look like they would kinda-sorta help in this kind of case. I'm sure there are other ways.
12:55	chouser	it would still have to be stored somewhere that all the node methods could find it, wouldn't it?
12:55	andyfingerhut	Yes. So you make all the node deftypes inside the main one.
12:56	andyfingerhut	Maybe a crazy idea, and maybe problems with it I haven't thought of. But if the feature were there, I would have been crazy enough to try it out :-)
12:57	chouser	:-)
12:57	chouser	gotta go. bbl.
12:57	stuartsierra	Even nested classes aren't really contained in Java.
12:57	stuartsierra	It's just a namespacing convenience.
12:57	stuartsierra	With some funny rules about public/private visibility.
12:58	andyfingerhut	Inner classes do not get access to per-instance fields of the class in which they are nested?
12:58	stuartsierra	I can never remember the rules.
12:58	andyfingerhut	That's OK. Some rules, only the writer of the rules can keep in their head at one time.
13:02	amalloy	inner classes have access to instance fields of the outer class. the one that always gets me is method-local classes
13:12	proyal	howdy! question: i have two seq's, one of fn's, the other of values. in order, i want to map each item of my value seq with the corresponding (nth-wise) fn from my seq of fn's. is there a handy way to do that?
13:12	stuartsierra	(map (fn [f v] (f v)) fns values)
13:13	chouser	or #(%1 %2)
13:13	proyal	stuartsierra: ah, awesome. docs weren't clear that's how it worked
13:13	stuartsierra	what chouser said
13:13	proyal	i tried 'for', but that gave me a cartesian product
13:13	ohpauleez	proyal: I'd do what chouser said, typically
13:14	proyal	yah, anon-fn's preferred indeed. worked like a charm, thanks gents!
13:16	amalloy	chouser: wow, i didn't know that worked. i sorta assumed #() needed something it could resolve at the call site
13:17	ohpauleez	amalloy: the beauty of first-class of functions
13:17	amalloy	yeah. when i look at the expansion of #() into (fn []) it's clear that there's no reason the latter should work but not the former; but the first one just looks mind-boggling
13:18	dnolen	somebody who is able want to open up a ticket for even? in 1.3.0-alpha1 (I really need to send in my CA :P) http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/f46fc7389ecdf1f8#
13:21	birdspider	hi, anyone familiar with penumbra(clj wrapper for lwjgl)? can't get the examples to work
13:24	dnolen	birdspider: what's the problem?
13:27	birdspider	dnolen, well first I'd like to know if the examples are bundled in the penubra.jar ? or if I have to pull them seperatly
13:28	dnolen	birdspider: the jar? did you d/l the git repo?
13:29	birdspider	dnolen, nope I just downloaded the clojar via lein deps
13:29	dnolen	birdspider: that won't work I think as you need something to set the classpath to the native libs.
13:30	dnolen	birdspider: it's simpler to just checkout the repo, and run 'lein repl' and run the examples from the REPL
13:30	birdspider	dnolen, well yes, my current status is that I downloaded a single example and tried to (require) it
13:30	birdspider	dnolen, native libs via native-deps in place afaik
13:31	birdspider	dnolen, which I link via -Djava.library.path=pathToSo
13:31	dnolen	birdspider: do you have a paste somewhere of the error?
13:31	birdspider	but it gives me java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: org.lwjgl.opengl.GL11 (core.clj:9)
13:31	birdspider	dnolen, do I have to link each *.so specifically
13:32	birdspider	dnolen, or just the path
13:32	dnolen	birdspider: no, what do you set the library path to?
13:32	birdspider	dnolen, -Djava.library.path=native/linux/x86/
13:32	birdspider	dnolen, which contains: libjinput-linux.so liblwjgl.so libopenal.so
13:34	cemerick	I'd like to invoke a fn a no-arg function within the context of comp or ->, but for the life of me, I don't see a clean way to do so.
13:34	cemerick	,(-> str .invoke count)
13:34	clojurebot	0
13:34	cemerick	is the best I've come up with, which sucks.
13:34	cemerick	Someone tell me I'm nuts.
13:35	dnolen	birdspider: hmm that should work yes... and yr classpath is set as well I assume? You do need to include each jar individually.
13:36	birdspider	dnolen, well there is a bunch of stuff in lib, but i tried: java -cp lib/clojure-contrib-1.2.0-20100813.160219-142.jar:lib/clojure-1.2.0-master-20100813.160144-94.jar:lib/penumbra-0.6.0-20100502.112537-3.jar:src/ -Djava.library.path=native/linux/x86/liblwjgl.so clojure.main
13:36	birdspider	dnolen, clojure, clojure-contrib, and penumbra
13:36	birdspider	dnolen, ah
13:36	birdspider	dnolen, there are the lwjgl jars
13:36	birdspider	dnolen, :)
13:36	stuartsierra	cemerick: You're nuts (-> (str) count)
13:36	dnolen	birdspider: yup
13:37	dnolen	birdspider: those get unpacked by native-deps so it's a bit weird
13:37	cemerick	stuartsierra: right, but assume the fn I want to invoke is the result of a prior invocation in -> or comp
13:37	birdspider	dnolen, thats what I got wrong, I looked there after calling deps
13:37	birdspider	dnolen, ok thx for now
13:37	dnolen	birdspider: np
13:38	stuartsierra	cemerick: with comp, easy, just wrap in #()
13:38	stuartsierra	With ->, you're still nuts :)
13:38	hiredman	,(str (apply nil) count)
13:38	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Wrong number of args (1) passed to: core$apply
13:38	stuartsierra	well, not #() but (fn [_] foo...)
13:38	hiredman	,(-> str (apply nil) count)
13:38	clojurebot	0
13:39	cemerick	My real trouble is that I"m actually using comp and partial with equal frequency as -> and #() these days.
13:39	momos	Hello :-)
13:45	andyfingerhut	With 1.3.0, is someone already planning a web page or something similar that people can go to in order to assist in upgrading their code base from 1.2.0? As a minor example, I had some calls to re-gsub that worked on 1.2.0, but the name changed so it took some time to find in 1.3
13:45	stuartsierra	re-gsub was already deprecated in 1.3
13:45	stuartsierra	I mean 1.2
13:53	andyfingerhut	Is there a way to enable warnings of using deprecated things in 1.2?
14:09	duncanm	anyone working on incanter here?
14:09	duncanm	is there a reason why the API page is broken? it only shows the package names, but none of the functions
14:09	fliebel	chouser: I have a full stomach now. Do you have time to explain me a few key things about reify? I'm thinking in circles now. :(
14:10	duncanm	hmm, liebke is not around
14:13	ohpauleez	~seen liebke
14:13	clojurebot	liebke was last seen quiting IRC, 2561 minutes ago
14:17	fliebel	~seen chouser
14:17	clojurebot	chouser was last seen in #clojure, 64 minutes ago saying: or #(%1 %2)
14:47	chouser	fliebel: back in a sec
14:48	fliebel	sure :) I nearly got it working :)
14:50	chouser	ok, back. That's great. what have you got?
14:50	fliebel	http://gist.github.com/595835
14:51	chouser	nice!
14:52	fliebel	thanks :) You're a good teacher :)
14:52	chouser	I think that's the same as what I have. but you said "nearly"?
14:52	fliebel	The problem I had was that first was defined as the first of this, but I couldn't do (first this) of course.
14:53	fliebel	The same goes for next, that should return this with first replaced, but I can't just do (assoc this)
14:53	fliebel	So then I figured I needed the fn.
14:54	chouser	if you want to "check" your answer: http://gist.github.com/595663
14:54	fliebel	this is your version?
14:54	chouser	yep
14:56	fliebel	very close :) Only you have equiv defined and next uses more. Does it matter if you use .more(method call) or rest?
14:57	chouser	not really. yours is probably faster
14:57	chouser	but duplicates half a line of code. :-)
14:57	fliebel	yea… :(
14:57	chouser	so take your pick. what you've got is good.
14:58	chouser	better arg names than mine
14:58	fliebel	One problem I have is that drop 5 returns a lazy seq which I can't reverse.
14:58	chouser	yeah, you see how I work around that in my example?
14:59	fliebel	rest, I used seq to do the job
14:59	chouser	oh! smart!
14:59	chouser	interesting -- I hadn't considered that, and wouldn't have been sure it would work. nicely done.
14:59	fliebel	One thing I haven't figured out yet is how to make a seq that goes 1 2 3 4 5 4 3 2 1, so changes direction in the middle.
15:00	fliebel	chouser: I wasn;t sure it would work, but seq is magic you know..
15:02	chouser	(let [[prefix the-rest] (split-at 5 (iter-bi 0 inc dec))] (concat prefix (rseq (seq the-rest))))
15:04	fliebel	yea, so much trickery… :(
15:05	chouser	hm
15:05	fliebel	It'd be awesome if there was a clean way to do that as an infinit seq.
15:06	fliebel	I've been thinking about reduce and recur, but immutable stuff makes it hard t say "hay, rseq the rest" in the middle of a loop.
15:07	chouser	fliebel: right, the problem is applying a different function partway through a seq. split-at is one way to do that. reduce and loop/recur would be others, but aren't lazy.
15:09	fogus_	I am perplexed by the contrib modules.
15:12	chouser	fliebel: ((fn f [s] (lazy-seq (cons (first s) (f (rest (if (zero? (rem (first s) 5)) (rseq (seq s)) s)))))) (iter-bi 1 inc dec))
15:14	fliebel	chouser: I'm going to try and understand :)
15:15	fliebel	it works, but I'm not yet sure how :P
15:17	chouser	BTW, I wanted to call attention to my comment on rseq. I think we're abusing it here and probably ought to define a new protocol instead. (defprotocol Spinnable (spin [_])) or something.
15:19	fliebel	Okay… you use defprotocol for that?
15:19	chouser	yep
15:20	chouser	hmm...
15:22	fliebel	So now in reify I replace reversible with spinnable?
15:24	chouser	oh, wait -- does reify not work on protocols?
15:24	chouser	nm, dumb mistake
15:25	chouser	there, now you don't have to call seq manually on lazy-seqs: http://gist.github.com/595663
15:26	briancarper	Is anyone here actually able to pull 1.3.0-alpha1 contrib via Maven or Lein?
15:27	raek	anyone know why the clojure.github.org/clojure docs for 1.2 seems to have been reverted to 1.1-ish?
15:27	fliebel	chouser: What? You can just add behavior to existing types? Am I in #ruby?
15:27	raek	all the clojure.java.* and clojure.test namespaces are gone
15:28	chouser	fliebel: nope. in clojure we do it without monkey patching or adapter classes. :-)
15:28	AWizzArd	why was it named clojure.java?
15:28	chouser	fliebel: I mean "nope" you're not in #ruby. Of course you can write new functions that take existing classes as args that then do their own thing with them.
15:28	AWizzArd	It could have been more platform neutral, instead of clojure.dotnet/java
15:29	raek	probably because those are very host-specific
15:29	AWizzArd	you find?
15:30	raek	feels like those are mostly wrapper libs for certain java feauters
15:30	AWizzArd	those libs are also present in .net
15:30	fliebel	chouser: But you just added extra behavior to LazySeq, right?
15:30	raek	ok, maybe they are more similar than I thought
15:30	AWizzArd	it means that if I want to use typical IO stuff, we will have funny java names in my .net code
15:31	raek	does .net have input/ouput streams and readers/writers in the same way java does
15:31	dnolen	fliebel: it's a properly namespaced extension tho. It's not visible to other namespaces.
15:31	chouser	fliebel: it certainly looks like I did. In this case we could have written spin like: (defn spin [x] (if (instance? LazySeq x) ...))) right?
15:32	fliebel	I think so...
15:32	chouser	it's our function, we just defined it with defprotocol which allows us to add new cases on the fly
15:32	fliebel	yay
15:32	replaca	Has anyone else seen a stack overflow out of clojure.lang.Keyword?
15:32	replaca	in the intern method
15:32	chouser	essentially. Except then rhickey sprinkled it with magic dust to make it very fast.
15:33	fliebel	:)
15:33	chouser	fliebel: it's good to know not everyone knows about this yet -- it's my topic at Strange Loop
15:33	bhenry	from the moustache docs:
15:33	bhenry	(app ["foo" name] my-handler)
15:33	bhenry	; will route requests to "/foo/", "/foo/bar" to my-handler and bind @name@ (a local) to the matched segment (eg "" or "bar")
15:33	bhenry	how do i access the name where (= name "bar")
15:33	fliebel	oh, I feel special now :)
15:34	chouser	fliebel: good I'm glad! But... why?
15:34	dnolen	bhenryy: you need to create a handler fn, 'name' will be visible to it - (fn [req] (my-handler name)), moustache also has a delegate fn to make this less tedious
15:35	fliebel	Because I know something not everyone knows ;)
15:35	chouser	ah, good!
15:36	bhenry	dnolen: i had that and it didsn't work
15:36	fliebel	Except that I'm not o sure yet what exactly you just said. Only that it's magic and fast. Two things I like especially.
15:36	bhenry	gisting
15:39	chouser	fliebel: not coming to Strang Loop I suppose? Or Clojure-Conj?
15:40	fliebel	I'm located in the Netherlands, so I'm afraid not :( :(
15:41	fliebel	I'd love to though
15:42	chouser	fliebel: Here are the basics: http://clojure.org/datatypes
15:42	chouser	or perhaps "raw details" is a better description.
15:42	fliebel	chouser: I tried to read that this morning, but maybe with my new knowledge I can understand it.
15:43	chouser	"Joy of Clojure" and "Practical Clojure" I believe both cover protocols and reify.
15:43	fliebel	I never read programming books, except when I did Java.
15:44	chouser	I do sparingly. Learned Pascal and Lisp from books, but not perl or ruby
15:46	chouser	in both cases the paradigm shift from what I knew to what I was trying to learn warranted the kind of wholistic coverage a book does better than random web postings.
15:46	chouser	and official docs
15:47	fliebel	That would have been true when I started with Clojure, but now I'd get bored by the stuff I already know, and lose myself in side projects based on hte book.
15:48	ohpauleez	Joy of Clojure has an awesome section on proxy, reify, defprotocol, and defrecord
15:48	ohpauleez	I reference it often to judge if I'm abusing something
15:48	fliebel	Man, I turned 100-bootles-of-beer-song-generators from a book into webapps and such, to find out they'd do that a couple of chapters later.
15:49	fliebel	Yea, maybe I should get a book anyway…
15:49	ohpauleez	fliebel: At the point you're at in Clojure (based on what I follow in here), you'd get a lot of mileage out of it
15:50	chouser	ohpauleez: thanks. didn't want to say it myself. :-)
15:50	ohpauleez	very well organized and telling you when and why, instead of how and a little why
15:50	ohpauleez	chouser: :) it's all good
15:51	ohpauleez	chouser: real talk, it's one of the best books I've read. Works great as a story, examples are intelligent and easy to follow, but advanced enough to be adapted, Easy to use a reference.
15:52	fliebel	ohpauleez: I think I agree with you.
15:52	ohpauleez	and the biggest problem I had in clojure was deciding, "when"
15:52	fliebel	ohpauleez: ?
15:52	ohpauleez	it helped me a lot with that
15:52	fliebel	when?
15:52	ohpauleez	fliebel: In clojure, you have this whole array of functionality. Take concurrency
15:52	ohpauleez	we all have that little chart burned in our brains by now
15:53	ohpauleez	we know vars and atoms and agents
15:53	ohpauleez	but when should I be using promises over futures, or when am I abusing a future and should really be using an agent
15:53	ohpauleez	when should I use protocols and not some other small hack
15:53	fliebel	right… I have that problem a lot indeed
15:54	chouser	ohpauleez: that's very encourging, thanks.
15:54	ohpauleez	Joy of Clojure is structured by answering when, and for me, that pulled it all together
15:55	ohpauleez	chouser: np, thank you!
15:55	fliebel	muhahaha, under 10 there is a whole set of "when to use … "
15:56	bhenry	dnolen: can you give an example of delegate?
15:57	ohpauleez	chouser: Out of curiosity, how did you and fogus assemble the book
15:57	dnolen	bhenry: lemme look
15:57	ohpauleez	LaTeX?
15:57	fliebel	ohpauleez: How comes you have already read it when it's not out yet? You do the MeAP ebook thing?
15:57	chouser	ohpauleez: heh. you don't want to know.
15:57	chouser	ohpauleez: sausage-making and all that.
15:57	ohpauleez	chouser: haha, fair enough
15:58	chouser	ohpauleez: nah, I kid. We wrote it in markdown, augmented with our own various extensions.
15:58	ohpauleez	fliebel: Yeah, I got the MEAP when the first chapter was finished, and read the chapters as they were released
15:58	chouser	ohpauleez: then wrote tools to generate Manning's docbook-like XML from that, which they use to generate PDFs, etc.
15:59	ohpauleez	ahh, cool
15:59	fliebel	nice
15:59	dnolen	bhenry: http://github.com/cgrand/moustache/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/moustache.clj#L159
16:00	dnolen	bhenry: (delegate foo name) -> (fn [req] (foo req name))
16:00	fliebel	chouser: Is there a release date, or is it a "don't ask, it's read when it's ready" thing?
16:01	chouser	fliebel: fogus_ and I are essentially done, as far as I understand. It's going through final editing revisions now and should be on dead trees by Nov or Dec.
16:02	fliebel	Cool :) I prefer a real book over an electronic one, except for searching :)
16:02	bhenry	dnolen, i had just read that and gotten it to work when you posted. thanks for the help.
16:02	ohpauleez	fliebel: I don't know if you can still do it, but you can get a package deal
16:03	ohpauleez	ebook and physical one, for a great price
16:03	fliebel	"MEAP + Print book (includes Ebook) when available"
16:03	ohpauleez	right, you get the ebook now
16:03	ohpauleez	and the print book is shipped
16:03	fliebel	nice :)
16:04	dnolen	anybody know who the intro is written by yet?
16:04	ohpauleez	dnolen: The Stu's
16:04	chouser	fliebel: there are often coupon codes listed at joyofclojure.com
16:04	ohpauleez	dnolen: nah, I'm just making it up
16:05	chouser	dnolen: not yet announced, afaik. :-)
16:05	dnolen	arg
16:06	fliebel	chouser: ?
16:06	fliebel	Where do I look for?
16:06	chouser	fliebel: we're very excited about who we've got to write the foreward for us, but for some reason are keeping it a secret for now.
16:06	chouser	oh, what are you asking?
16:07	fogus_	chouser: BTW, got an email. Things are back on track WRT to the foreword. :-)
16:07	chouser	fogus_: ah, great news. I wasn't really worried.
16:07	fliebel	chouser: I was asking about the coupon codes. What do you mean by listed?
16:07	fogus_	yeah really.
16:07	chouser	fogus_: not as if this person has shown difficulty producing large amounts of text in the past.
16:08	chouser	fliebel: oh, sorry. It would be right by the "Buy it" link if there were one running right now.
16:08	fliebel	chouser: Ah, okay, I'll keep any eye on it, or probably not actually, but anyway.
16:08	lpetit	hello all
16:09	chouser	fliebel: if you use twitter you can follow fogus or me -- we generally tweet when we hear about coupon codes.
16:09	chouser	lpetit: hi!
16:10	fliebel	chouser: I was about to do that anyway :) My Twitter is becomming full of awesome Clojure people :)
16:10	lpetit	chouser: you lose. I need somebody's help, you answered to me, you're the one ! :)
16:11	lpetit	chouser: more seriously, is it a time where I can talk about a problem, do you have enough bandwidth currently ?
16:12	alpheus	How do you specify that a Var is bound in a function's :pre condition?
16:13	fogus_	The Clojure Maven repos are busted. Should be fixed... eventually.
16:13	wwmorgan1	alpheus: can you call the java method isBound on it?
16:13	chouser	lpetit: hm, it's nearly time for TF2, so perhaps not.
16:14	lpetit	I have questions related to clojure and its use of classloaders. We're trying, with cgrand, to see what could be done better in our way to embed in OSGi.
16:14	alpheus	I think I'm really just asking what is the argument for bound? supposed to be?
16:14	lpetit	What's TF2 ?
16:14	ohpauleez	TeamFortress 2, I'm guessing
16:14	chouser	lpetit: way off topic. ohpauleez is correct.
16:16	alpheus	I would have thought (bound? 'foo) but clojure.lang.Symbol cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Var
16:16	lpetit	First question: is there a way for me to initiate the Clojure environment, or very quickly after its initialization, with a parent classloader of my own. So that clojure always tries to find a classpath resource (bytecode on disk, clojure file on disk) via my classloader before "giving up" ?
16:16	MayDaniel	alpheus: (bound #'foo)
16:16	MayDaniel	bound?*
16:17	lpetit	>(doc bound?)
16:17	lpetit	,(doc bound?)
16:17	clojurebot	"([& vars]); Returns true if all of the vars provided as arguments have any bound value, root or thread-local. Implies that deref'ing the provided vars will succeed. Returns true if no vars are provided."
16:17	ninjudd	lpetit: not sure i am qualified to answer, but i spent many hours a few months back trying to do something similar
16:17	alpheus	(bound? #'foo) raises Unable to resolve var: foo in this context
16:18	hiredman	-Djava.system.class.loader
16:18	lpetit	ninjudd: interesting. If you have a clearer "vision" of how things work
16:18	hiredman	but if the classloader you specify references clojure clojure will be loaded
16:18	wwmorgan1	alpheus: do (declare foo) first. then bound? on #'foo will return false
16:19	lpetit	hiredman: I can not tweak things at this level. I cannot force every user of ccw to tweak its loading script for eclipse
16:19	MayDaniel	alpheus: What are you trying to do? Are you sure bound? is what you need?
16:19	hiredman	so you need to either write the classloader in java or use ASM to generate byte code that doesn't reference clojure
16:19	hiredman	lpetit: shrug
16:19	ninjudd	lpetit: my solution was to use setContextClassLoader, but i ran into what i think is a bug in how clojure handles use-context-classloader
16:20	ninjudd	lpetit: my travails are detailed in this thread: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/f61b550abf7f9c52/da25ba7e31b9431c
16:20	lpetit	ninjudd: you tried your tests for which kind of environment ? OSGi ? WebApp ?
16:20	stuartsierra	Bwahaha, I broke Contrib.
16:20	stuartsierra	Trying to fix now.
16:20	lpetit	ninjudd: thx I'll consult it
16:22	alpheus	I am not sure bound? is what I need. I am writing a function that relies on something that I expect will be set up by def/defvar or in a binding form and I wanted to assert that in the pre part of a condition-map for the function. Please feel free to tell me I'm going about that all wrong and point me toward the right documentation.
16:22	lpetit	hiredman: no problem. I can write the classloader in java. But I can not "insert it" in the classloader hierarchy in the classical way. It's "constrained" by OSGi. Rather, I would like to create my own classloader, which will leverage the OSGi classloader as its parent one, and then inject mine (which will have some goodies such as being able to consult all classloaders of all bundles that...
16:22	lpetit	...depend on the clojure bundle) as the "reference" classloader for clojure
16:22	lpetit	hiredman: at this particular moment, I don't even know if what I just described makes sense
16:23	lpetit	ninjudd: before even reading your post, reacting to your explanation: my fear is that I do not have control over the context class loader in the long run. I'm thinking about entering by the backdoor room :)
16:24	wwmorgan1	alpheus: I think that what you want to know is whether the namespace has the symbol you need. In this case you want ns-resolve
16:24	hiredman	lpetit: that is a complex issue
16:24	hiredman	and surprisingly oracle or ibm have some patents related to it
16:24	hiredman	(ugh)
16:24	lpetit	hiredman: oooh yes ! took us awake veeerry late yesterday !
16:24	lpetit	patents ?
16:25	hiredman	ninjudd: I haven't look at clojure's use of classloaders much, but the use of dynamic classloaders the way they are may be what allows the redefinition of records at a repl
16:25	hiredman	lpetit: I know right? crazy
16:25	lpetit	hiredman: probably not an issue, everybody knows those people work for science, not profit ;-)
16:26	hiredman	filtering classloaders and such
16:26	hiredman	http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20080271002
16:27	duncanm	la la la
16:27	lpetit	hiredman: it really is totally crazy to place patterns on such trivial "thoughts" !
16:28	lpetit	and even more crazy to accept those as patterns !
16:29	lpetit	hiredman: I haven't played with records that much. There's still a restriction on their redefinition ? Due to the fact that a real class is generated, right ?
16:30	ninjudd	hiredman: my change didn't affect the repl. it still had DynamicClassLoader as the parent of NativeClassLoader. plus i only change the classloader temporarily in my import-native method
16:31	lpetit	hiredman, ninjudd: reading ninjudd's link and others related to OSGi/context class loader. Will come back to you within 15 minutes
16:32	ninjudd	hiredman: but i'm past NativeClassloader anyway. cake handles native libs perfectly without having to muck with the classloader
16:32	ninjudd	my point was just that i think there is still a bug in how clojure handles use-context-classloader
16:33	hiredman	as I said, I have not really looked at it, but classloading is very complicated, and is definitely tricky in the case of redefining classes
16:36	ninjudd	hiredman: agreed, it is very complicated. which is probably why cemerick was the only person brave enough to respond to my message
16:37	cemerick	which message was that?
16:37	ninjudd	that classloader message from way back when
16:42	ninjudd	hiredman: the complexity is also likely why nobody wanted to touch a patch from some kid they'd never heard of to fix a bug that nobody else had noticed ;-)
16:42	ninjudd	but that doesn't mean it isn't a bug
16:44	hiredman	I will with hold judgement on bugness until it's been reviewed elsewhere
16:45	ninjudd	hiredman: probably won't ever happen. it's over four months old.
16:46	hiredman	shrug
16:46	ninjudd	unless someone with more clout has the same problem. then i shall be vindicated!
16:47	cemerick	ninjudd: is there a bug opened on assembla?
16:48	ninjudd	good question
16:48	ninjudd	looks like i never opened one. i think this was back before i had access
16:49	dnolen	ninjudd: do it!
16:50	lpetit	ninjudd, cemerick, hiredman: just read an article or two on the subject of OSGi and its affinities with context class path. It's just a no man's land in the spec. Every container has its own way to use it. Some expose every exported package by every bundle in this classloader, some do not guarantee that it is set, some by the use of proxies at bundle boundaries try hard to always set it...
16:50	lpetit	...correctly (but I guess that you need to always use OSGi services then, not directly call classes exported by another bundle ...
16:51	ninjudd	you scared him off
16:54	ninjudd	lpetit: sounds painful
16:55	lpetit	ninjudd: ooh yes. That's why I somehow give up on trying to cheat with OSGi, and now I'm trying to cheat with clojure :-). I can even consider hacking it a little bit in the corners. But right now I just need to understand how it works.
16:57	ninjudd	so how do you plan to cheat with clojure? replace DynamicClassloader?
17:00	lpetit	ninjudd: first step = find a summary of how the parts that use classloaders work, or someone with the ability to do this summary "live" for me. Then I'll see if this "DynamicClassloader" should be extended, composed, replaced, etc. (I don't even know exactly what I'm talking about, concerning Clojure and classloaders. And this kind of subject does not suffer to be imprecise)
17:02	ninjudd	lpetit: i would start by trying to write your own classloader that users DynamicClassLoader as it's parent, which means that resources that are not found by your classloader will be loaded using dynamic classloader.
17:02	ninjudd	s/users/uses/
17:02	sexpbot	<ninjudd> lpetit: i would start by trying to write your own classloader that uses DynamicClassLoader as it's parent, which means that resources that are not found by your classloader will be loaded using dynamic classloader.
17:03	ninjudd	lpetit: then you can use setContextClassLoader to change clojure to use your classloader instead of DynamicClassLoader.
17:04	ninjudd	lpetit: what you are doing sounds very similar to what i was doing. NativeClassLoader and my import-native function are good examples
17:04	lpetit	ninjudd: it's more that I don't know in which ways I can direct clojure to use my classloader. I remember vaguely having seen various places where a modif can be made (some use-context-classloader, some CLASS_LOADER static attributes of RT / Compiler, BASE_CLASSLOADER, etc). I'm lost between those "alternatives"
17:06	lpetit	ninjudd: but when to call setContextClassLoader() ? I cannot do this once and for all, or I'll not play well with OSGi (that's what I understand). By doing so I may expose to few or to many things to all other following users of the thread. And I have no guarantee that it will not be changed by somebody else in the future.
17:06	lpetit	Instead of telling clojure "use the context classloader", I would rather have a way to tell him: please also try to always use as a last resort this classloader I'm handing you
17:06	lpetit	once and for all
17:09	ninjudd	well, clojure does that with the parent of DynamicClassLoader, which should be whichever classloader loaded clojure.lang.Compiler
17:09	lpetit	Oh and I also just thought about this one: the context classloader, by definition, is for one thread. I'm not sure at all in OSGi that I have any guarantee that it will always be this thread that will be used when accessing e.g. RT ?
17:09	ninjudd	IIRC
17:09	ninjudd	lpetit: good point
17:13	ninjudd	lpetit: this part of clojure seems like a total mess to me. if you can convince someone (i.e. stuarthalloway) to clean it up, that would be a very good thing
17:15	lpetit	ninjudd: a real world example of the problem. An AOT class is declared in a bundle A, via the plugin.xml. At some point the eclipse frameworks wants to load the class. I don't know when, I have no control, the class will automatically call clojure in another bundle to initialize its implementation namespace. I have no way to take control in this workflow by superimposing my "classloader-which-will
17:15	lpetit	-call-back-to-the-calling-bundle-loader" so that clojure will even be able to find the implementation namespace's ".clj" resource
17:16	lpetit	ninjudd: I'll try, as soon as I seem to know what I'm talking about :)
17:16	ninjudd	http://books.google.com/books?id=CvvdZtzxnAEC&lpg=PP1&ots=3G5cW4y2NJ&dq=stuart%20halloway%20Component%20Development%20java&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false
17:17	ninjudd	written by stuarthalloway
17:19	ninjudd	lpetit: yeah, i think changing the classloader used by clojure can't be done without a patch
17:19	ninjudd	unless you can control which classloader is used to load clojure.lang.Compile
17:20	lpetit	ninjudd: I can live with such a (probably) tiny patch for the needs of ccw.
17:20	ninjudd	lpetit: but then every user of ccw must use a forked version of clojure
17:22	AWizzArd	ninjudd: were you the guy who implemented a Set that keeps the order of insertion?
17:22	lpetit	ninjudd: no we thought about 2 scenarios with cgrand: one where we totally bypass OSGi and indeed create and wire "on the fly" clojure environments. In this scenario we control which classloader is used to load clojure.lang.Compile. But this scenario does not play well with OSGi when you add AOT compiled classes to the dance. They just never will be able to get a the proper clojure classes,since t
17:22	lpetit	hey are isolated from OSGi.
17:22	ninjudd	AWizzArd: yes
17:22	lpetit	ninjudd: thanks god no.
17:23	lpetit	ninjudd: it's been months (if not years) since ccw does not mistake its own clojure environment with each of the user's projects environments :)
17:23	ninjudd	i see. like lein and cake
17:23	AWizzArd	ninjudd: please look into your priv messages
17:24	lpetit	ninjudd: but it's fair to say that users whose job is writing Eclipse plugins could benefit from this new approach (and the patched clojure) if they want the greater repl experience in their own development cycle
17:24	lpetit	ninjudd: yes, they now do like ccw :-p
17:53	erikcw1	5
17:54	amalloy	erikcw1: 11
17:55	erikcw1	I have a string that contains some html. I'm trying to process it with enlive, but I can't figure out how to get started. Any ideas?
17:58	raek	I suspect that you could pass an instance of java.io.StringReader ot html-resource (note: I have not tested this)
17:58	erikcw1	raek: thanks -- I'll try that. I still have a heck of a lot more Python in my head than Java
17:59	raek	hrm, maybe you need to pass an java.io.StringInputStream instead...
18:01	raek	here's the multimethod that handles how a resource is made from the argument: http://github.com/cgrand/enlive/blob/master/src/net/cgrand/enlive_html.clj#L49
18:01	erikcw1	I was just looking at that, looks like it takes both a java.io.Read and an InputStream
18:02	raek	ah, didn't see the Reader part...
18:02	erikcw1	what's the difference between a Reader and a Stream?
18:02	raek	using a Reader would be preferred
18:02	lpetit	best resource on the subject I've found: http://www.infoq.com/articles/code-generation-with-osgi
18:02	raek	they do characters and bytes, respectively
18:03	raek	strings are character-based, so using a reader avoid any redundant encoding to and decoding from bytes
18:03	erikcw1	ok, makes sense
18:04	erikcw1	you wouldn't happen to know off the top of your head how to render the enlive object back into a string after it has been processed would you?
18:05	raek	I have barely begun using elive :-)
18:05	erikcw1	:)
18:05	raek	iirc, it makes lazy sequences so that the whole document doesn't need to be in memory at once
18:08	erikcw1	raek: (apply str (html/emit* ENLIVE_OBJECT)) does the trick
18:12	raek	ok, neat
18:13	raek	I think Ring accepts sequences of strings as reponse bodys
18:14	raek	(in case you were coding web with some Ring-based framework)
18:20	erikcw1	not using Ring yet. thanks for the info though
18:22	amalloy	raek, erikcw1: Ring does indeed accept seqs of strings. i was reading through the APIs just last night to get my feet wet
18:24	duncanm	i want (contains? [10 20 30 40 50] 50) to return true, which call should i be using instead?
18:25	raek	hrm, I think that new fn was added recently
18:25	raek	it scanned the sequence for the element in linear time
18:26	raek	anyway, using sets are often a better solution
18:26	raek	,(contains? #{10 20 30 40 50} 50)
18:26	clojurebot	true
18:26	scottj	it was discussed or possibly temporarily introduced but I don't think it made it
18:27	iGNOSaurus	Hi!
18:27	raek	,(some #{50} [10 20 30 40 50])
18:27	clojurebot	50
18:27	iGNOSaurus	How do I turn a seq of characters into a string? Sorry for being a noob!
18:27	raek	,(some #(= % 50) [10 20 30 40 50]) ; if you really need a bool
18:27	clojurebot	true
18:28	duncanm	iGNOSaurus: (apply str s)
18:28	raek	iGNOSaurus: not very obvious, but (apply str [\f \o \o])
18:28	iGNOSaurus	duncanm: Thanks!
18:29	iGNOSaurus	It makes a lot of sense if you know how stuff works. :)
18:29	wwmorgan1	,(clojure.contrib.seq-utils/includes? [10 20 30 40 50] 50)
18:29	clojurebot	true
18:33	amalloy	duncanm: you probably don't want true anyway, just something non-false; in which case raek's first two examples are perfect depending on whether you can store your stuff as a set or not
18:54	lpetit	,(some #{false true} false)
18:54	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Boolean
18:54	lpetit	,(some #{false true} [false])
18:54	clojurebot	nil
18:55	lpetit	I love this one :)
18:55	amalloy	,(some false? [false])
18:55	clojurebot	true
18:56	lpetit	of course. But for example cannot be used in a generic way (not controlling the set :-))
19:02	abedra	does anyone know how to read a raw device from java?
19:02	abedra	i'm trying to capture input from /dev/input/js0
19:02	abedra	which I know is spitting out information
19:02	abedra	because I can cat /dev/input/js0
19:04	alsocasey	I was wondering whether anyone could offer some insight concerning this aquamacs/SLIME/swank-clojure setup issue I'm struggling with over here?
19:05	alsocasey	specifically, while I can run a standalone REPL just fine, initiating a swank session and connecting to it in Aquamacs leads the REPL to freeze on any but the simplest inputs
19:09	scottj	does it work in normal emacs?
19:11	alsocasey	Haven't tried with standard emacs yet - I was hoping someone might have experienced similar and could provide a quick solution
19:12	amalloy	abedra: it's the same as reading any file, isn't it?
19:12	iGNOSaurus	Is there a really simple way to add a list of characters to a set? That is, the individual characters. :) Thanks again!
19:13	amalloy	(,into #{\a \b} [\n \6])
19:13	iGNOSaurus	I've been watching 5 hours of video, and it seems so simple when other people are doing it. When I type myself most things fail miserably.
19:13	amalloy	,(into #{\a \b} [\n \6])
19:13	clojurebot	#{\a \b \n \6}
19:14	iGNOSaurus	,(into #{\a \b} '(\n \6))
19:14	clojurebot	#{\a \b \n \6}
19:14	iGNOSaurus	Thanks! OMG. That is simple. :)
19:14	amalloy	it always is, eventually :)
19:14	iGNOSaurus	Yeah. :)
19:18	amalloy	(use 'clojure.java.io)
19:18	amalloy	(->> (file "/dev/urandom") reader line-seq (take 2))
19:18	amalloy	abedra: ^^
19:21	technomancy	alsocasey: aquamacs is not very well supported since it's not cross-platform
19:21	alsocasey	I suppose I'll try again with regular emacs
19:22	abedra	amalloy: i guess it is
19:23	technomancy	alsocasey: could also be an issue with clojure 1.3 if you're using that; swank hasn't been updated for it yet
19:23	ninjudd	alsocasey: i know lancepantz uses aquamacs with swank all the time with no problem.
19:23	ninjudd	but he talks about switching off aquamacs all the time
19:23	alsocasey	technomancy: no, this is using clojure 1.2
19:24	alsocasey	ninjajudd: yes I figured it was something I was missing since Aquamacs seems to be used by others without problems - also "switching off"?
19:25	ninjudd	to plain-old-emacs
19:25	alsocasey	ah - well I'll try that then
19:31	iGNOSaurus	Like, dudes. I'm amazed, my first program. :) Thanks for the help.
19:35	amalloy	what's it do, iGNOSaurus?
19:41	iGNOSaurus	Not much. It reads in a Norwegian dictionary from file, and it picks out the words that uses "allowed" letters.
19:41	iGNOSaurus	A friend of mine, who's a teacher for young children, wanted it. They only know four letters, and she wants to know which words they can learn to spell. :)
19:44	alsocasey	technomancy: sure enough it works fine under regular emacs
19:46	lpetit	if somebody can explain how RT.USE_CONTEXT_CLASSLOADER works, please explain
19:46	ninjudd	not very well ;-)
19:48	lpetit	seems convoluted, and I don't fully grasp why so
19:48	ninjudd	,(clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader)
19:48	clojurebot	#<DynamicClassLoader clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@1fd523d>
19:48	ninjudd	,(.getParent (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader))
19:48	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.lang.RuntimePermission getClassLoader)
19:48	ninjudd	meh
19:49	ninjudd	,(println "#<DynamicClassLoader clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@169c6f2>")
19:49	clojurebot	#<DynamicClassLoader clojure.lang.DynamicClassLoader@169c6f2>
19:49	ninjudd	that's better ;)
19:49	ninjudd	try it for yourself. the baseLoader is a dynamic classloader, as is it's parent
19:50	ninjudd	which is not right
19:51	lpetit	no, its parent is a FactoryURLClassLoader for me, with cljr and
19:51	lpetit	...
19:52	lpetit	some probably not so old (.getParent (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader))
19:52	iGNOSaurus	What's the best framework for doing web with Clojure?
19:52	lpetit	1.2.0-master-SNAPSHOT
19:53	ninjudd	hmm, running clojure from the jar directly i get: DynamicClassLoader -> DynamicClassLoader -> AppClassLoader
19:53	ninjudd	iGNOSaurus: i'm fond of compojure
19:53	iGNOSaurus	Cool, thanks. I'll look at it.
19:54	ninjudd	not quite a framework though. you'll still need a few more pieces for html, javascript, ORM?
19:54	lpetit	anyway, I want to interpose something between DynamicClassLoader and AppClassLoader. If I could make it "generic" or "pluggable", it could be an acceptable patch
19:55	ninjudd	lpetit: here is my patch to RT to fix use-context-classloader: http://github.com/ninjudd/clojure/commit/4dac03fb2b47a33c77704c00fc9086f4c9b9dc3a
19:55	ninjudd	that's how i think it should work
19:56	lpetit	ninjudd: I' look at it. Please not that I absolutely want to avoid using use-context-classloader, though :). Is this "var" intended to be used from outside clojure core ?
19:56	lpetit	(ok I must really read your post)
19:58	ninjudd	i assume so, but at one point they changed the root binding from false to true to fix a bug. now it is kind of pointless. i believe the right fix would have been changing baseLoader as i have done
20:01	ninjudd	http://github.com/clojure/clojure/commit/b045a379215d1f48e6a2e6cedcdb41526cd5bb25
20:01	ninjudd	i believe that change was prompted by the netbeans problem cemerick mentioned in the thread
20:15	amalloy	iGNOSaurus: http://gist.github.com/596278 is my go at it. probably not as legible as yours, but you might get some neat ideas from it about how expressive clojure is
20:25	lpetit	ninjudd: all this use-context-classloader remains opaque to me. Looks like a hack,
20:25	lpetit	s/remains/stuff remains/
20:25	sexpbot	<lpetit> ninjudd: all this use-context-classloader stuff remains opaque to me. Looks like a hack,
20:26	lpetit	ninjudd: in your patch, shouldn't you try to position it to true from within the main.clj ?
20:26	ninjudd	lpetit: agreed seems that it would be better to have a classloader var that you can modify the root of
20:28	ninjudd	lpetit: not sure what you mean about main.clj
20:29	ninjudd	oh, you mean to wrap the call to setContextClassLoader with a binding of use-context-classloader?
20:30	lpetit	ninjudd: in the changeset of Rich you pointed, there was a conjunction of several changes: on in main.clj to try hard to set the context classloader to a meaningful value, and one to change the value of u-c-c so that what has been done in main.clj has a chance to be used
20:30	lpetit	no
20:30	lpetit	I mean, in main.clj, set the value of use-context-classloader to true, for the REPL thread
20:31	ninjudd	lpetit: that's what i meant when i said "wrap the call to setContextClassloader"
20:31	ninjudd	i wasn't all that clear. should have qualified it with: in the repl function
20:32	lpetit	ninjudd: sorry I dindn't understand that. I thought you hoped that just calling binding for the duration of the setContextClassloader() method call
20:33	ninjudd	oh, right. you would have to bind it for longer than that. good point
20:34	ninjudd	lpetit: i don't think the setContextClassLoader is necessary with the the fix to baseLoader. that is what is causing the double-parent problem i pointed out
20:35	ninjudd	(which may be why you didn't see it in cljr)
20:35	lpetit	guess we'll have to block rich hickey in some corner at the clojure conj to know the final word about all this :)
20:36	ninjudd	hehe. and stuarthalloway since he "wrote the chapter" on classloaders ;-)
20:37	lpetit	huh ?
20:37	ninjudd	i sent the link before
20:37	ninjudd	http://books.google.com/books?id=CvvdZtzxnAEC&lpg=PP1&ots=3G5cW4y2NJ&dq=stuart%20halloway%20Component%20Development%20java&pg=PA11#v=onepage&q&f=false
20:39	lpetit	oh ok ;)
20:40	ninjudd	lpetit: yep. cljr does its own classloader magic: http://github.com/liebke/cljr/blob/master/src/main/resources/cljr/main.clj#L95
20:42	lpetit	ninjudd: why does he store previous-classloader but not use it ?
20:43	lpetit	Again an example of use of the context class loader as if it were in full control of the whole world :-(
20:44	lpetit	works for the REPL, from a Request thread in a webapp, but, again, not in an OSGi context :-( :-(
20:44	lpetit	anyway thanks for the link !
20:51	ninjudd	lpetit: no problem
20:52	ninjudd	lpetit: for your case, would classloader be sufficient? assuming you could alter the root to be your modified classloader
20:53	lpetit	I guess so
20:55	lpetit	I am in control of the first invocation of a clojure class. e.g. I call Class.forName("clojure.lang.RT"). If just after that I set the root of classloader to be my own, then it's ok
20:57	lpetit	but isn't this a problem that for its core initialization, clojure would have used as its root a "temporary" classloader. I should ensure that the "old" classloader of clojure is the root classloader of my own, right ?
21:00	lpetit	ninjudd: if we don't want to break anything, we must keep it in place, though
21:00	lpetit	ok, must go to bed (3am here !)
21:00	lpetit	cu later !
22:25	nroot7	In my program I represent each user as a agent maintaining its own state. This works fine w.r.t. to concurrency but what if I want to persist this state in a non-volatile way. Is this a common pattern in clojure world ? How is it implemented ?
22:30	technomancy	nroot7: if 100% absolute consistency is not a requirement, you can have a watcher on your agent that serializes to disk
22:31	nroot7	technomancy: thanks
23:36	bhenry	how can i make this happen?
23:36	bhenry	[:option {:value "123"} "Item" ] => [:option {:value "123" :selected true} "Item" ]
23:38	wwmorgan1	,(assoc-in [:option {:value "123"} "Item" ] [1 :selected] true) ;If you can guarantee that your data structure will be a vector
23:38	clojurebot	[:option {:selected true, :value "123"} "Item"]
23:40	bhenry	oh duh. i was looking right at assoc-in and forgot the key didn't already have to exist.
23:41	wwmorgan1	,(assoc-in {} [:a :b] :c) ; :-) You can do multiple levels of nesting too
23:41	clojurebot	{:a {:b :c}}
23:47	technomancy	it looks like in some situations clojure.walk treats MapEntries as distinct items, while sometimes it doesn't
23:47	technomancy	I don't suppose that's intentional?