#clojure – 2010-09-23

2010-09-23

00:26	slyrus	evening
00:31	defn	I wonder... would anyone cut my head off if I said that Ruby was the OOP version of CL?
00:39	Raynes	defn: I'll ready the hatchet and the guillotine and allow the CL crew to decide which to use.
00:43	slyrus	thanks Raynes
00:47	amalloy	is this feature a recent addition to destructuring, or has it been around a while?
00:47	amalloy	,(let [f (fn [& {a :a}] (inc a))] (f :a 10))
00:47	clojurebot	11
00:47	amalloy	(i mean the ability to pass keyword arguments without a caller-built map, not the :keys feature in general)
00:48	Chousuke	It was introduced in 1.2
00:49	amalloy	ah, okay. i saw stuart sierra's article on map destructuring, and was surprised to find that this works since he said it doesn't, and might even be a bad idea
01:36	sandGorgon	what is the mycroft inspector ? I cant figure out what it does
02:43	scottj	sandGorgon: do you know what an inspector is?
02:46	sandGorgon	scottj, ah.. that would be a negative. I'm a c++ prisoner here - know what valgrind is (sounds similar)
02:47	scottj	basically it just lets you navigate objects/datastrutures and see their contents. I'm guessing c++ debuggers have something similar
02:48	scottj	the smalltalk one is realy fun because when you're navigating you can eval code where this refers to whatever is selected in the inspector
02:50	andyfingerhut	I've not used it, but DDD adds a GUI on top of gdb, and it can display some C/C++ data structs graphically. http://www.gnu.org/software/ddd
03:06	LauJensen	Good morning all ya'll - We're into C++ now? :)
03:06	octe	anyone know where i can find an example of parsing xml, transforming it, and outputting new xml?
03:06	bobo_	yes, we changed the channel to c++ and php
03:06	Raynes	Morning.
03:07	LauJensen	bobo_: sweet, those are almost my two favorite technologies
03:07	octe	i'm trying to fit clojure.zip clojure.xml and clojure.contrib.zip-filter.xml together in some way but not succeeding :-)
03:07	clojurebot	vimclojure is state-of-the-art
03:07	Raynes	LauJensen: Also, ya'll is a combination of "you" and "all", so that all before ya'll wasn't necessary. Get your redneck right.
03:09	Chousuke	Raynes: I vaguely remember reading that "all ya'll" is actually in use somewhere
03:10	Chousuke	redundancy in natural languages is nothing new :P
03:10	Raynes	Chousuke: Seriously? Hrm.
03:10	LauJensen	Raynes: I've heard it from Americans "all ya'll"
03:10	LauJensen	Possibly ebonics
03:10	Raynes	"I heard it from Americans"
03:11	Raynes	Hehehe. That totally makes it right. ;)
03:11	LauJensen	octe: I think the very first Clojure project I did read and emitted xml with zip-filter, but Ive long since forgotten how
03:11	andyfingerhut	http://memphis.about.com/od/midsouthliving/qt/yall.htm
03:11	LauJensen	andyfingerhut: Nice - Seems I speak better english than Raynes :)
03:12	Raynes	To be completely and totally honest, I have never heard "all y'all" out of a person's mouth in Alabama. Ever.
03:13	LauJensen	Raynes: No need to make excuses, just accept defeat like a man :)
03:14	andyfingerhut	No one has heard all of the dialects of English, except perhaps Henry Higgins, and he hated most of them :)
03:14	LauJensen	I find it difficult to truly hate any other accent than british
03:15	Chousuke	which british accent? :P
03:15	LauJensen	hehe, right
03:15	Chousuke	I actually like them though.
03:15	Chousuke	some of them are hilarious
03:17	Chousuke	I'm probably biased though, as I was taught British English at school :P
03:20	Chousuke	"Sir, why do you have bananas in your ears?" "Pardon?" ... <- A comic like this in our textbook of first year English
03:20	LauJensen	Our english books made fun of French people, which I was sure to tell Christophe about :)
03:21	LauJensen	I remember a picture of a french guy who was drowning and exclaiming "I am drowning and noone shall help me!"
03:21	Chousuke	Then noone arrived and helped him? :P
03:21	LauJensen	No
03:22	LauJensen	I guess the indian/american accent can also get a little hard on the ears after a while
03:22	LauJensen	And one accent which really bites, is the danish/american accent :(
03:25	octe	LauJensen, my main problem is turning the zipper back into xml..
03:25	LauJensen	octe: I think the function is called emit
03:25	LauJensen	in zip-filter
03:27	octe	LauJensen, can't find anything like that. there's xml/emit but it doesn't want a zipper
03:28	amalloy	LauJensen: all y'all is a regional thing, confined to not very many regions in america. i think it's in the general area of minnesota, but don't quote me
03:28	amalloy	octe: not exactly a clojure tool, but if your task is fairly simple have you tried an xslt?
03:29	LauJensen	octe: This is nearly the first piece of Clojure I ever wrote so don't laugh, its just to show you what I did way back when https://gist.github.com/11fea14db41cfefa9f54
03:29	LauJensen	"in the general area of minnesota" -- quote, amalloy
03:29	LauJensen	gotcha :)
03:30	amalloy	noooooo
03:30	octe	i think i got it working http://paste.lisp.org/display/114797
03:30	octe	seems kind of convoluted though
03:31	amalloy	another amusing one is "yins". wiki claims that's only used in pittsburgh, but it's basically the same as y'all
03:36	Raynes	LauJensen: I concede. I'll be jumping off a bridge now. ;)
03:37	LauJensen	Raynes: Seeing how you're American I wouldn't joke about that stuff online, next thing you know officers will breaking down the door tasering your dad
03:38	Raynes	The only male in this household is my Uncle. And seeing him get tasered would be amusing enough to warrant inconvenience.
03:38	LauJensen	haha, man you're cold
03:40	tomoj	are there uncles named "Uncle"?
03:40	Raynes	Uncle Tom
03:58	cais2002	hi, does anybody use leiningen with subversion? how do u do a lein jar?
03:59	cais2002	I got this error msg: Exception in thread "main" java.util.zip.ZipException: duplicate entry: .svn/entries
04:07	LauJensen	subversion?
04:09	esj	subversion.
04:10	LauJensen	like a sub version of git?
04:13	flintf	hyuk hyuk
04:13	esj	a politically dangerous one
04:13	LauJensen	cais2002: I never heard of lein and subversion in the same sentence, what are you doing with it ?
04:14	cais2002	my project is using subversion for version control and lein for build
04:14	LauJensen	ah like that
04:15	cais2002	i guess the .svn folder in the resource path conflict with the .svn folder of the root folder of the project..
04:15	LauJensen	cais2002: lein will throw an exception if a file is locked, and as I recall it also barks at Emacs temp files, could that be an issue?
04:15	esj	i have used svn successfully in a clojure project before, didn't have such weirdness
04:15	LauJensen	You might want to check if you can exclude the .svn dir from the build then
04:16	esj	(then LauJensen put me in a headlock, and enumerated the benefits of git...)
04:16	LauJensen	esj: come on, did I? :)
04:16	esj	ok, I might exagarate massively
04:17	LauJensen	hehe, thought so
04:17	esj	i figured out I should use git on my own :)
04:17	LauJensen	Although I prefer git to SVN I definitely wouldn't advocate it as the ultimate version control system
04:17	esj	"Well.... if its good enough of Linus and Rich...."
04:18	LauJensen	exactly, 'good enough'
04:18	esj	oh, perhaps a misunderstanding: "..." were my thoughts at the time of switching.
04:19	LauJensen	ok
04:19	bobo_	git > svn >>>>>> perforce
04:19	esj	what about Hg !=
04:19	esj	Hg ~= Git ?
04:19	bobo_	never used it, but yeh, around git
04:20	cais2002	LauJensen: there does not seem to be an option to specify exclusion of folders in th eproject.clj file
04:20	LauJensen	ok
04:21	andyfingerhut	and perforce >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no version control
04:21	cais2002	and i just confirmed that it's due to the .svn folder in the resources folder..
04:21	LauJensen	esj: The major benefits in Hg, is that its a very clean implementation, where as git is an insane mess of intertwined C code which nobody understands. In terms of usability I couldn't get used to the anonymous branching scheme
04:21	esj	cais2002: ah, I did not use a resources directory in my svn project, so could well be.
04:22	esj	LauJensen: cool, thanks.
04:23	cais2002	esj: any quick fix to this?
04:25	esj	take resources out of version control ?
04:26	esj	LauJensen: is anybody working on a test coverage tool for clojure ?
04:27	esj	or have I missed an existing solution ?
04:28	cais2002	the skip-file? function in jar.clj http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/blob/master/src/leiningen/jar.clj#L77 can we update it to skip ^\. for directory? is that a reasonable solution?
04:28	cais2002	rightnow it just accepts all directories
04:29	esj	cais2002: afraid I don't use leiningen, so couldn't say :(
04:29	LauJensen	esj: I think stuartsierra is cooking up something
04:30	esj	LauJensen: that's great, thanks.
04:30	LauJensen	cais2002: I think it makes sense, I can check with ninjudd who's working on cake and hear what he thinks
04:31	cais2002	LauJensen: thanks. I will just update in my local copy of lein first
04:32	LauJensen	cais2002: Yes start there, then possible migrate to cake in a little while. They're usually überfast in implementing small things like that
04:50	notsonerdysunny	when I execute the code in http://gist.github.com/593350 and run (ns-publics 'clojuratica-exp.core) I only see the following ....
04:50	notsonerdysunny	{kernel-link #'clojuratica-exp.core/kernel-link}
04:50	notsonerdysunny	what happened to the other variables like math-evaluate.. can anybody help?
05:37	AWizzArd	Can one download the Clojure API docs somewhere as .pdf or .html?
05:40	scottj	you can probably generate them yourself from the clojure source
05:51	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Isnt the entire API on a single html page on clojure.org still?
05:54	raek	I'm trying to set up leiningen on a Solaris computer and I get this when I run lein: ".bin/lein: LEIN_VERSION=1.3.1: is not an identifier"
05:55	raek	doesn't solaris sh support "export X=y"?
05:56	flintf	LauJensen: AWizzArd: yea, I think you can just do wget -r http://clojure.github.com/clojure/
05:56	flintf	and grab it
05:57	LauJensen	raek: Im not sure solaris accepts assignment without calling export
05:57	bobo_	raek: thinkit has another syntax
05:57	LauJensen	so... try cake
05:57	LauJensen	:)
05:57	bobo_	solaris is weird
05:57	raek	indeed
05:57	bobo_	one could almost think LauJensen has money invested in cake :-)
05:57	cgrand	AWizzArd: just switch to the gh-pages in git
05:58	cgrand	AWizzArd: just switch to the gh-pages branch in git
05:58	raek	LauJensen: line number 3 in the lein script is: export LEIN_VERSION="1.3.1"
05:58	raek	but yes, cake sounds like a very good idea
05:59	raek	I'm going to do a getting started with clojure and emacs mini-talk next wednesday
06:00	LauJensen	In Sweden I suppose, how far away from Cph are you ?
06:01	raek	and now I'm trying to get the usual stuff working at the computers we're going to use
06:01	raek	LauJensen: yes, Linköping. 356 km
06:02	LauJensen	Ok, if you want you can hope on your bike now then, there's a Clojure meeting up 4 hours
06:02	LauJensen	free snacks I hear :)
06:04	raek	wouldn't be too complicated to get there some time... not much longer that to my home town
06:04	bobo_	think x2000 goes al the way?
06:04	LauJensen	Its Ative thats hosting it, they're a pretty cool bunch
06:05	bobo_	ive done some daytrips to copenhagen, its abit to much travel for one day =)
06:06	LauJensen	bobo_: Yea, save your strength for Frankfurt :)
06:06	bobo_	indeed!
06:10	raek	found a quick hack to the Solaris sh problem: replace the shebang line in the lein script with #!/usb/bin/bash
06:13	raek	LauJensen: I promise I'll teach them cake too
06:13	LauJensen	usb? :)
06:14	raek	heh. typo.
06:16	LauJensen	It'll be interesting to see how many Clojurians will turn out. Sweden seems a little more advanced than DK in that regard - but thats just a gut feeling (and a PR statement)
06:25	raek	for the Conj Labs?
06:33	LauJensen	No I just meant in general
06:33	LauJensen	There's not a Conj Labs Denmark in the works yet
06:42	Raynes	raek: Found out whether or not you'll be able to make the Conj yet?
06:43	raek	nope, not yet
06:48	LauJensen	Raynes: Looking forward to going?
06:48	Raynes	LauJensen: Absolutely dreading it.
06:48	Raynes	;)
06:48	Raynes	I'm ecstatic.
06:48	LauJensen	You're afraid chas will get on your back about not using maven I suppose... I understand
06:49	Raynes	If cemerick can be stubborn for 15 years about Emacs, I think I'm entitled to the same privileges with maven. :>
06:50	LauJensen	Raynes: I must say Im a little disappointed that you didn't ask to have your scholarship converted to a trip to Conj Labs, but I guess we all make stupid decisions when we're young :)
06:50	Raynes	Hehe.
06:50	cemerick	Raynes: indeed you are
06:50	Raynes	If it requires a passport, it's way too far for me.
06:50	cemerick	Though you're already using maven via lein and cake. Sorry.
06:50	LauJensen	whoop, there he is, good morning cemerick :)
06:50	Raynes	cemerick: Not for long. cake is to use Ivy soon.
06:50	LauJensen	cemerick: cake is converting to Ivy as we speak
06:51	cemerick	...which uses maven repos. shrug
06:51	LauJensen	well, it doesn't really make sense to copy all of those repos just to change the name now does it? :)
06:51	cemerick	Interesting move, though.
06:52	cemerick	well, with the repos comes the whole versioning scheme, the semantics of SNAPSHOT, version range semantics, etc.
06:52	cemerick	Along with the impl. detail of XML pom files..
06:52	LauJensen	I think most of the actual design of the Maven work flow is quite good, its just the implementation and all of thats XML which bugs me
06:53	cemerick	Interestingly, other people in other contexts wont use lisps because of the sexprs. Meaningless syntax battles are...meaningless.
06:54	LauJensen	cemerick: I think the arguments against the bloat of XML are valid, those against lisp arent even rational
06:55	LauJensen	cemerick: I think everybody was impressed by your screencast about Maven, where you start out saying "These simple 40 lines make out the basic config", but I was less impressed when the screencast ended and your simple build had grown to over 100 lines, thats just nuts
06:55	cemerick	Representational compactness is the only objection? They're semantically equivalent w.r.t. config files.
06:56	LauJensen	Its not the only, but its huge
06:56	cemerick	Hrm. If that's the big one, then clojure should switch to yaml.
06:57	LauJensen	I think you're mixing things a bit. What I don't understand, is why you think that its worth the trouble of writing out these huge xml configs, when a few vectors can do the trick?
06:58	scottj	have you considered you might be missing the point?
06:58	cemerick	Because I don't want to reimplement (or help to reimplement) 10 years or more worth of tools.
06:58	bobo_	you can open a maven project in idea, eclipse and netbeans, you can open a lein project in...nothing
06:58	LauJensen	cemerick: Why not? Isnt it plausible that with 10 years passed, we're able to make much better tools?
06:58	neotyk	bobo_: I do it in emacs
06:59	neotyk	and am much happier person now
06:59	bobo_	neotyk: ofc, but of the "big tools" many developers are used too.
06:59	cemerick	LauJensen: There's no "better version" of a build process for building .war files. This stuff is a commodity, and fundamentally uninteresting.
06:59	scottj	neotyk: ide's give all sorts of features for maven like UI's to tasks and autocompleting of plugins repos etc
06:59	scottj	that emacs doesn't give to lein
07:00	LauJensen	bobo_: Its important not to work on the premises of people who are unwilling to learn
07:00	neotyk	bobo_: it is called enterprise not "big tools"
07:00	Raynes	Not sure lein requires such tools.
07:00	neotyk	scottj: I never needed auto completion for project.clj
07:01	bobo_	i dont think it does, i love lein.
07:01	bobo_	im just saying joe developer might wanna use the ide he is used too
07:01	scottj	Raynes: requires != would be nice
07:01	Raynes	Not sure why it would be useful.
07:02	scottj	Raynes: the same reason autocomplete is useful anywhere
07:02	neotyk	bobo_: for sure he will like to use his ide
07:02	Raynes	I don't think I've ever seen a project.clj that was longer than my Emacs frame.
07:02	neotyk	but I just don't see why would I write pom.xml for clojure project if I can have project.clj
07:02	Raynes	Maven is a bit of a different beast.
07:03	cemerick	Raynes: And you've never seen a project.clj file that could do more than 5 or 6 things, either.
07:03	Raynes	cemerick: I was actually getting to that.
07:03	Raynes	Like I said: different beasts.
07:03	Raynes	I'm not defending either one. I'm agnostic.
07:03	LauJensen	Raynes: I have project.clj which almost 100 lines, but then it does everything except wash my clothes
07:03	bobo_	i assume you can mix clojure and java in one project with maven?
07:03	LauJensen	In 100 lines, maven does "Hello, world!"
07:03	bobo_	for example
07:04	neotyk	bobo_: I do that in http.async.client
07:04	Raynes	I just like to use cake, don't care for XML, and simply do not require services that maven requires that cake does not. If ever I am in need of such services, I suppose I'll be learning maven.
07:04	cemerick	Raynes: Fundamentally, I am as well, but LauJensen enjoys baiting me. :-\|
07:05	LauJensen	hehe, cemerick I dont mean to bait, I just dont understand your reasons for advocating this ancient and verbose beast of a build system
07:05	cemerick	Raynes: That's a very good perspective. Unfortunately, many others assume reimplementation is a sane strategy.
07:05	LauJensen	cemerick: after 10 years it is a sane strategy!
07:05	hoornet	hey guys, about what screencast are you talking about? Can I see it?
07:05	LauJensen	cemerick: got link to that maven screencast you did?
07:06	cemerick	http://cemerick.com/2010/03/25/why-using-maven-for-clojure-builds-is-a-no-brainer/
07:06	cemerick	hoornet: ^^
07:06	LauJensen	'no brain' thats for sure :)
07:06	scottj	neotyk: autocomplete will tell you what versions of a lib are available and other info you end up having to google for w/ just emacs
07:06	hoornet	thanks a lot. I'll take a look at it
07:07	neotyk	scottj: point taken, though I only experienced that need in Java projects, as they tend to have a lot of deps
07:07	cemerick	My recent post is worth a read as well if one is interested in build and deploy processes. http://cemerick.com/2010/09/22/wherein-i-feel-the-pain-of-being-a-generalist/
07:08	LauJensen	cemerick: great, look forward to reading it!
07:08	cemerick	LauJensen: So, if you're a fan of reimplementation, why not push to reimplement the JVM, since it's the source of so many limitations and sharp corners that pure-clojure devs often view as obstacles?
07:09	LauJensen	cemerick: You have a funny way of driving your arguments :)
07:09	LauJensen	"If you believe that, why not do this completely unrelated thing?"
07:09	cemerick	Not unrelated at all. I'm simply extending your preference for reimplementation of other tools with flaws to other domains.
07:10	neotyk	cemerick: problem with maven is that once you need a plugin for it you are facing quite some bad time, while you can have plugins local to you project in leningen
07:10	LauJensen	cemerick: Its not that reimplemeting some fundamental things of the JVM is a bad thing, it would be excellent, its just too much work right now
07:10	Raynes	http://raynes.github.com/clj-github/clj-github.gists-api.html Is it just me, or does this page not exist?
07:10	LauJensen	Raynes: doesnt exist / broken
07:11	Raynes	Damn. Autodoc has failed.
07:11	neotyk	ahh, and one more, try working with maven in emacs
07:11	cemerick	LauJensen: Then I wonder why you think reimplementing all of the plugins and tooling available for maven / XML is so much easier.
07:11	neotyk	good luck with that one
07:11	LauJensen	neotyk: no fun?
07:11	LauJensen	cemerick: Because all of the essentials are already done
07:12	cemerick	One man's essentials is another man's barest foundation.
07:12	neotyk	it is nice in IDE, once you decide to go with emacs, no support anymore
07:12	cemerick	neotyk: That is a good point. Though, I've not yet needed plugin functionality that isn't already available.
07:13	cemerick	One could always simply exec a clojure script if that came along....and I do remember a maven plugin that allowed you to inline clojure code into the pom.xml file, but I never tried it.
07:13	neotyk	I had written those, and shit this was painfull
07:13	Raynes	Nosir, I failed me. Forgot to actually commit that particular documentation page.
07:13	LauJensen	cemerick: I think I need to see more screencasts to appreciate Maven like you do. Screencasts and money
07:14	cemerick	I don't "appreciate" maven, I use it out of sheer necessity. If a more elegant yet similarly-capable tool existed, I'd use that instead.
07:14	LauJensen	Try cake
07:14	Raynes	Something get this man a magic wand!
07:15	Raynes	somebody, even
07:15	neotyk	or maybe it is that I'm just tired of Maven, and for me verbosity of pom.xml is a bit to much to handle
07:16	scottj	Can't you write pom in several other formats in latest maven?
07:16	cemerick	LauJensen: Seen it. I'm well past an ant-like target model. And again, no sizable plugin ecosystem, and no tool support. Then I'd have to install and maintain ruby everywhere I'm building stuff. Yikes.
07:16	neotyk	scottj: you have maven polyglot
07:16	LauJensen	cemerick: What specifically is it, thats cake missing?
07:16	cemerick	scottj: Yeah, that's polyglot maven. Certainly on its way.
07:17	Raynes	I've been writing plugins for cake because ninjudd promises me sweets. :>
07:17	neotyk	I'm very happy user of leiningen, though must admit that haven't done any commercial project in clojure, yet
07:18	neotyk	so I don't now really
07:18	cemerick	LauJensen: for starters, plugins for generating NSIS installers, cross-compilng jar files to .NET assemblies via ikvm, and obfuscation via proguard
07:18	LauJensen	cemerick: Do you need obfuscation even when not embedding the source ?
07:18	scottj	I would guess maven has plugins for deploying to android, GAE, hudson, etc
07:19	Raynes	cemerick: Awww, I was already writing it down. :(
07:19	cemerick	scottj: well, one doesn't "deploy" to hudson, but yeah, if you've got a pom.xml, your hudson configuration is already done
07:20	cemerick	LauJensen: Nearly all of my projects have some java components -- and yes, I still obfuscate the clojure classfiles as well.
07:20	scottj	maven also builds project files for ides I think
07:21	LauJensen	cemerick: Alright - And all of those items are completed automatically once you initiate the build?
07:21	cemerick	One can have the project files subsumed by the pom in eclipse and netbeans, if one prefers. NB is smoother in that regard.
07:22	cemerick	LauJensen: Yes. Then there's the plugins for selenium, and functional and unit tests in general.
07:22	LauJensen	Ok, whats the Windows story for Maven ?
07:23	cemerick	windows story?
07:23	scottj	works great, probably has a million people using it
07:23	Raynes	"Does it work properly on Windows"
07:23	scottj	daily
07:23	cemerick	ah
07:23	cemerick	I'd wager there's more maven users on windows than on flavors of linux / OS X / bsd
07:23	LauJensen	Oh ok
07:24	LauJensen	Interesting
07:35	esj	cemerick: you nailed it on the head with the tyranny of diversity that we face.
07:36	cemerick	esj: oh, in yesterday's post?
07:36	esj	indeed
07:36	cemerick	If I were brighter, I would have used that far more concise phrasing. :-)
07:36	joubert	hi, I have a question about JSON-STR in clojure.contrib.json
07:37	cemerick	~asking
07:37	clojurebot	asking is Don't Ask to Ask, Just ASK
07:37	cemerick	joubert: go for it
07:37	esj	if I were brighter i'd understand all this stuff :)
07:37	Raynes	I'd so very much enjoy it if Github would complete it's gist API/documentation. :\
07:37	Raynes	I feel so limited.
07:37	joubert	cemerick: why does JSON-STR add quotes in the resulting string for strings, keywords, and symbols?
07:38	cemerick	joubert: you mean for keys in maps?
07:39	joubert	cemerick: I expected (json-str :test) to return "test", but instead "\"test\"" is returned
07:39	joubert	similarly for strings and symbols
07:39	Raynes	-> (clojure.contrib.json/json-str :hai)
07:39	sexpbot	⟹ "\"hai\""
07:39	Raynes	I understand why it does it for strings. Not sure why it would do it for symbols.
07:40	cemerick	Raynes: because unquoted strings are not allowed in json
07:40	Raynes	cemerick: Oh, brainfart.
07:40	cemerick	joubert: ^^
07:40	Raynes	I was too busy thinking about Haskell's Show typeclass.
07:41	cemerick	joubert: BTW, there's no "JSON-STR" function. It's "json-str". :-)
07:41	joubert	cemerick: ok, thanks
07:41	Raynes	cemerick: He is probably a CLer. They capitalize everything.
07:41	cemerick	I figured. :-)
07:41	cemerick	Clojure: saving caps lock keys worldwide. ;-)
07:42	joubert	cemerick: :-) the only reason I uppercase it is because then it stands out in a sentence
07:42	Raynes	Most people use single quotes for that.
07:42	Raynes	Ohai, I has a question about the 'json-str' function! Halp! :>
07:43	joubert	raynes: at least we're using hyphenated style instead of camelCase!
07:44	Raynes	My dash key has never been the same.
08:08	kumarshantanu	cemerick: I am going to tweet that [caps lock thing] ;-)
08:08	cemerick	kumarshantanu: have at it :-)
08:14	LauJensen	cemerick: Gotta duck out, was good reading your post and hearing your specific reasons in here, thanks
09:17	@chouser	cemerick: that blog post of yours is depressing
09:17	cemerick	Yeah. I know. :-(
09:17	Raynes	Morning House.
09:17	cemerick	chouser: The whole state of software development practice is depressing, IMO.
09:17	Raynes	Er, chouser. I keep forgetting that your first name isn't Gregory.
09:18	cemerick	Nearly a fatally-flawed situation, perhaps.
09:18	kjeldahl	chouser: Link?
09:18	chouser	http://cemerick.com/2010/09/22/wherein-i-feel-the-pain-of-being-a-generalist/
09:18	chouser	Raynes: :-)
09:19	cemerick	Raynes: chouser is like House in that both are awesome.
09:19	cemerick	chouser: I think a solid 5-year Englebart-esque program would result in a big leap forward.
09:19	cemerick	I don't see anyone or any organization stepping up to that, though.
09:20	chouser	cemerick: now, theoretically couldn't one provide a pom.xml (or perhaps a pom-generator) that would provide one-button clojure+processing->applet building, right?
09:20	cemerick	maybe MS research, but they're not so great at pollenating productized versions of things.
09:20	cemerick	chouser: Absolutely. I could put it together in ~4 min.
09:21	cemerick	That's after ~10 years of JVM background and ~2 of maven though.
09:21	alexyk	cemerick: it's by 9:24 am then, right?
09:22	cemerick	heh
09:22	chouser	if maven's internal semantics were dead-on exactly right no reason to complain, then I'd be entirely content learning it and/or building pretty little simplifier tools on top of it.
09:22	alexyk	ok, have it on my desk by 9:25, to be lenient
09:22	chouser	but I'm not fully convinced that's the case.
09:23	alexyk	chouser: are you saying they are alive? (gasp)
09:23	alexyk	oh, dead-on
09:23	chouser	well "entirely content" might be a stretch, but I would be willing to learn it and wouldn't "waste" time on cake or lein
09:24	alexyk	chouser: maven is just a right of passage. You have to prove your manliness by subduing it.
09:24	cemerick	chouser: I'm not convinced either. Unfortunately, the nature of things is such that a clean break is extremely risky, and existing players are generally unwilling to change.
09:24	chouser	cemerick: I don't honestly care all that much about existing players, at least in regards to "mainstream" programmers or "established" IDEs
09:24	alexyk	the multi-language ability of maven is still what nobody else has
09:25	chouser	perhaps I should, but I don't.
09:25	cemerick	chouser: That's an odd sort of communal solipsism. :-\|
09:25	chouser	sorry, don't follow.
09:27	cemerick	Community is oxygen; if you're not worried about uptake, then you'll be forever doomed to building stuff on your own, or with a very small cohort.
09:27	chouser	alexyk: ah, so now it's design begins to make sense...
09:27	cemerick	In any case, the problem is the problem, not the lack of an adequate solution.
09:27	Raynes	cemerick: I had to look up solipsism. Thank you. What a beautiful word.
09:28	cemerick	Raynes: Enroll thyself in an epistemology class. You'll be happy for it.
09:28	chouser	cemerick: Well, let's see... I use the 5% desktop OS (linux), and within that a 5% window manager (ion). I don't use IE or Safari. My favorite language is hated by all who hate the JVM and all who hate Lisp...
09:29	cemerick	chouser: Sure, that's fine in your particular corner. But if you are looking at building something that's better than X, you need all those other people.
09:29	chouser	cemerick: so whether they're good decisions or not, you do seem to have discovered my pattern
09:29	cemerick	And, even though you don't use those 95% tools, you benefit by their dominance.
09:30	Raynes	chouser: You're such a maverick. I bet you even put ketchup in your scrambled eggs!
09:30	cemerick	ha
09:30	cemerick	I used to enjoy grape jelly in my eggs. That was a lifetime ago, though.
09:30	Raynes	I used to put ketchup in mine. Now I just don't eat scrambled eggs.
09:31	chouser	but I don't do it to be a maverick. I do it because I prefer better tools, or at least tools that are better for what I do.
09:31	Raynes	Very rarely. Not much of a breakfast person.
09:31	chouser	I have used Windows as my primary OS, and C++ as my primary language, etc. I have specific articulable reasons for choosing other than each of those.
09:32	chouser	Some of these choices have become popular enough that enough community has gathered around to make using them much easier than they were before (linux, clojure). Others have not (ion)
09:32	cemerick	Of course, it's a spectrum. Most people tend towards satisficing, insofar as they don't care about the same things you care about.
09:32	shoover__	I use Windows and C# and put ketchup on my scrambled eggs. I don't know what that makes me.
09:34	cemerick	I don't think there's nearly "enough" community around clojure, just to pick on our favorite son.
09:34	cemerick	But anyway, we've strayed from the point.
09:34	chouser	I suppose to choose to bet on it, maven does not have to be the best imaginable solution, just the best available.
09:35	chouser	cemerick: I qualified my "enough". "enough" to be easier to use that it was. growing not shrinking.
09:35	cemerick	Sure.
09:36	chouser	My life would be so much easier if everyone used linux, ion, clojure, firefox, bash, vim, etc.
09:36	cemerick	Again, I think maven et al. are solving the wrong problem. Build tools and all of the process around software development are an artifice symptomatic of a lot of brokenness.
09:37	chouser	Raynes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_%28window_manager%29
09:39	Raynes	Aww, a discontinued Window manager.
09:39	chouser	:-/
09:39	Raynes	Discontinued software makes me all emotional.
09:41	chouser	cemerick: oh, had you said that before? I missed it.
09:41	chouser	what problem should be solved instead?
09:43	cemerick	There are a lot of problems. :-)
09:43	cemerick	Specifically related to build tooling, deployment, etc., the problem is that the mode of deployment dictates packaging.
09:43	cemerick	I shouldn't have to know about .war files.
09:43	cemerick	I shouldn't have to know about .app directory structures.
09:43	cemerick	When I shove a file into an app container, the application contained therein should be transparently mirrored across my cluster, if I've set one up.
09:46	cemerick	To a certain extent, that's screaming at the ocean. In practical terms, I might as well say I want to program in straight C, get the perf that implies, yet not have to manage memory.
09:46	cemerick	Bad analogy, but perhaps it gets across.
09:46	chouser	:-)
09:47	cemerick	In any case, the situation is not good for people with domain expertise.
09:47	cemerick	It is good for those whose domain expertise is whatever the shifting sands of the software industry are shoveling these days -- which happens to be a friggin' lot of people.
09:53	alexyk	what's the best resource for a comprehensive API docs, including core and contrib?
09:54	alexyk	with the contrib refactoring and osmosis into core
09:56	cemerick	alexyk: http://clojure.github.com/clojure/branch-master/index.html and http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/branch-master/index.html
09:56	cemerick	Those track HEAD AFAIK
09:56	alexyk	cuuute
09:58	alexyk	is re-find etc what people use for regexes? Anything like PCRE?
09:58	clojurebot	max people is 313
09:59	cemerick	alexyk: clojure uses java.util.regex.Pattern, which is an excellent PCRE impl.
10:00	alexyk	cemerick: ok, just checking :)
10:00	cemerick	Arguably second only to perl, IMO.
10:00	alexyk	so looks like re-seq is the most clojure-like of them...
10:01	chouser	re-seq is my most common fn for regex. Then re-find and finally clojure.string/replace
10:19	kjeldahl	,(bound? somevarname)
10:19	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: somevarname in this context
10:19	chouser	,(resolve 'somevarname)
10:19	clojurebot	nil
10:19	chouser	,(resolve 'reduce)
10:19	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/reduce
10:20	kjeldahl	Thanks!
10:35	alexyk	chouser: what's the idiomatic way to walk a directory and grep files for a pattern?
10:44	chouser	(file-seq (java.io.File. "foo"))
10:45	alexyk	chouser: ok, and then duck-streams and re-seq, right?
10:45	chouser	I guess you could use duck-streams
10:46	chouser	(filter #(re-find #".svg" (.getName %)) (file-seq (java.io.File. "/home/chouser/misc/art")))
10:48	cemerick	shoover__: it's historical, but serendipitous. See clojure.java.io/file
10:48	cemerick	mefesto: Awesome. Bring three friends! :-)
10:49	mefesto	hah
10:49	alexyk	two of them cute females at that
10:49	shoover__	I'm not sure I've ever heard historical, but serendipitous in any context
10:49	shoover__	Usually it's just historical
10:51	alexyk	hmm, there will be two rich hickeys and two chousers at clojure-conj... or their evil twins...
10:51	chouser	???
10:51	alexyk	and two stu's
10:51	alexyk	clojure-conj.org, two rows of pics
10:53	alexyk	(is it just for my Chrome or for everybody?)
10:54	esj	alexyk: so THAT'S how they're so impossibly productive.
10:55	cgrand	alexyk: when you zoom out everybody has a "twin"
10:56	chouser	alexyk: yeah, an odd choice of visual design
10:57	alexyk	well, now we just have to go there, to meet the twins! :)
10:57	chouser	he walks like me; he talks like me; he's even got a twin like me
11:06	l_a_m	does someone use compojure ?
11:06	l_a_m	i 've got a problem with my defroutes
11:06	l_a_m	i would like to have an URI like this : "/version?api_key=xxxx"
11:06	l_a_m	how can i do this ?
11:07	l_a_m	i try (GET "/version" (params :params)
11:07	l_a_m	does someone have any idea ?
11:09	kjeldahl	I_a_m: (ANY "*" [& params] ....)
11:11	kjeldahl	(ANY "*" [& params] (str (prn-str params)))
11:12	kjeldahl	I'm still clueless on how to get the whole session stuff and similar using compojure routes like above...
11:15	bhenry	kjeldahl: i think you want ring middleware. i'm not sure what compojure does to them if anything. look into ring wrap-params
11:17	bhenry	kjeldahl: er. ring.middleware.keyword-params/wrap-keyword-params
11:19	l_a_m	kjeldahl: so i can use (GET "/users/:id" [id params]
11:19	l_a_m	?
11:25	kjeldahl	I_a_m: Extracting from the URI string is easy. But how about the headers and similar? There's a little bit too much "magic" for me to grasp yet (or lack of docs..).
11:27	shoover__	l_a_m: did you try what you just wrote? It looks right
11:27	l_a_m	shoover__: yeah i try
11:28	shoover__	l_a_m: well, just id. If you want a map of all the params, you may need something different
11:28	l_a_m	shoover__: and i ve got a NullPointerException
11:29	shoover__	there's special destructuring going on in compojure. If you use a vector, you have to provide the names of the params you want. So [id] should work.
11:29	l_a_m	it works
11:30	l_a_m	GET "/users/:id" [id & params] and not : [id params]
11:30	shoover__	ok, good
11:31	shoover__	If you want to see the entire request, leave off the [] and destructure a map like {{id "id"} :params :as req}
11:31	shoover__	(that :as req is untested, just a guess)
11:50	dnolen	wow, composable regexes, http://github.com/cgrand/regex
11:51	alexyk	dnolen: cool
11:51	alexyk	cgrand: grand! :0
11:53	cgrand	it's just a toy
12:25	alexyk	ninjudd: ping
12:32	amalloy	alexyk: pong (ninja'd! get it?)
12:33	alexyk	amalloy: but you got no cake!
12:35	amalloy	:( i'll try it out one of these days
12:36	alexyk	amalloy: today's the day! cake rocks
12:39	amalloy	gem install cake? or something trickier?
12:40	ohpauleez	alexyk: what advantages does cake give you over lein... or is it just how they each approach the problem?
12:43	amalloy	ohpauleez: it keeps a persistent jvm running in the background to speed up new clojure tasks, for one
12:43	ohpauleez	lein interactive
12:43	ohpauleez	The autotest stuff could be cool
12:44	ohpauleez	but currently my text editor fires that off for me, in a nailgun instance
12:47	amalloy	alexyk: i notice cake repl says it gives you tab completion, but for me it just types a tab character?
13:20	Bahman	Hi all!
13:20	alexyk	amalloy: didn't try tabs yet
13:25	cemerick	ninjudd: instead of nREPL, what do you think of clojack? (a play on "clojure ack", etc)
13:26	cemerick	Coming up with project names is straight-up misery.
13:29	kotarak	On the other hand: a sister site for clojars called clochards?
13:29	cemerick	kotarak: hrm, good to know
13:29	kotarak	cemerick: yeah, we live in a global world.
13:30	ninjudd	cais2002: i just checked. cake uses the ant jar task, so it excludes .svn files by default http://ant.apache.org/manual/dirtasks.html#defaultexcludes
13:31	cemerick	perhaps ackie then :-P
13:31	cais2002	ninjudd: thanks for the quick fix. I will check it out tomorrow morning
13:32	ninjudd	cais2002: no fix necessary ;-) but you're welcome
13:34	ninjudd	cemerick: clojack is certainly better, but i still prefer portal :>
13:35	ninjudd	Toiletjure?
13:35	cemerick	portal will forever mean altavista and such in my head :-/
13:36	ninjudd	portal will forever mean shooting a teleporting door into a wall and walking through it to me
13:36	ninjudd	which is exactly what nREPL aims to do ;)
13:37	cemerick	heh, bugs bunny-style
13:37	ninjudd	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_(video_game)
13:37	cemerick	hrm, maybe it was daffy
13:37	kotarak	Yeah. These portable holes. Say are kinda cool.
13:37	bhenry	i've always wanted one of those black circles you could put anywhere to make a hole.
13:37	kotarak	s/say/they
13:38	ninjudd	cemerick: you could name it ASHPD
13:38	ninjudd	which is the technical name for the portal gun (Aperture Science Handheld Portal Device)
13:40	ninjudd	nice parallel to nailgun too
13:45	ninjudd	yes, except there is already a ruby lib called railgun
13:46	ninjudd	and snailgun
13:47	kotarak	pfff... there is no :or for list destructuring. :(
13:47	dakrone	snailgun? do you send nailgun requests via snail-mail?
13:50	ninjudd	dakrone: something like that
13:54	scottj	kotarak: yeah I've wanted that before too
13:54	cgrand	kotarak: if you are destructuring a vector you can use :or :-)
13:55	kotarak	Hmm.. I thought I was destructuring a vector.
13:55	kotarak	Lemme check again.
13:55	kotarak	(Maybe I tested with a list...)
13:55	cgrand	'(let [{a 0 b 1 :or {b 43}} (seq [42])] [a b])
13:56	cgrand	,(let [{a 0 b 1 :or {b 43}} (seq [42])] [a b])
13:56	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: No value supplied for key: 42
13:56	cgrand	don't work but
13:56	cgrand	,(let [{a 0 b 1 :or {b 43}} [42]] [a b])
13:56	clojurebot	[42 43]
13:56	kotarak	argh
13:56	cgrand	not pretty and brittle, you are warned
13:56	kotarak	ok
13:57	kotarak	Well. This whole code is not pretty. But it reduces runtime by a factor of 3. :]
13:57	ohpauleez	cemerick: I just looked at nREPL for the first time right now... I just did a similar thing using aleph
13:57	ohpauleez	but am now moving my focus to net-ns, a remote ns system for clojure
13:57	cemerick	"remote ns system"?
13:58	ohpauleez	an ns like macro that lets you :expose :use-remote, etc
13:58	kotarak	cgrand: btw: I'm absoliutely happy, that I got into fighting distance to the vector. :)
13:59	ohpauleez	:use-remote :at "127.0.0.1" for example
13:59	cgrand	kotarak: ah, it's vlist stuff... I haven't looked at your latest yet
14:00	cgrand	sorry
14:00	raek	a RPC library?
14:00	kotarak	cgrand: no hurry. :) I know you are completely booked at the moment.
14:01	kotarak	cgrand: no matter whether it's useful, but less than factor two away from a vector (written in Java) with a datatype written in Clojure seems pretty cool to me. :)
14:01	ohpauleez	raek: a type of RPC library, yes
14:02	svs`	anyone using carte? any idea what this means? "db-spec null is missing
14:02	svs`	a required parameter"
14:05	@rhickey	cemerick: any thoughts on contributing nRepl when you are ready?
14:05	duncanm	dum de dum
14:06	duncanm	it's easy to find the biggest number in a seq (use max), but what if i also want to know its position?
14:07	cemerick	rhickey: Happy to.
14:07	cemerick	It's early days (I think I'm ~ a full day into it so far!), but it's coming together. I'd like to make sure I've got everyone's bases covered so that it's globally useful.
14:07	chouser	duncanm: which position? the first, last, or all of them?
14:07	cemerick	s/globally/generally
14:07	mrBliss	,(apply (partial max-key first) (map vector [1 3 2] (range)))
14:07	clojurebot	[3 1]
14:07	duncanm	mrBliss: nice
14:07	mrBliss	duncanm: ^^
14:07	duncanm	max-key?
14:08	duncanm	mrBliss: so if i have a matrix ([a b c] [d e f] ...) and i want to find the indices to the largest element.....
14:08	duncanm	hmm
14:08	chouser	mrBliss: nice, I keep forgetting max-key
14:08	chouser	(map-indexed vector [1 3 2])
14:08	duncanm	oh
14:08	duncanm	i know nothing about these functions, are they new?
14:09	chouser	,(:added (meta #'max-key))
14:09	clojurebot	"1.0"
14:09	chouser	,(:added (meta #'map-indexed))
14:09	clojurebot	"1.2"
14:12	@rhickey	cemerick: that's great. Please also consider WebSockets protocol
14:13	dnolen	+1 for WebSockets
14:13	cemerick	rhickey: HTTP was going to be my first thought, but sure. Maybe I can twist someone's arm to look at that, as I've never touched them. Stacking stuff on top of what's there should be totally straightforward in any case.
14:13	cemerick	that == websockets
14:14	ninjudd	cemerick: yeah, franks42 suggested websockets earlier too. not sure if i forwarded it along or not
14:15	cemerick	I think this is the first I've heard of it; I'll add it to the design notes just so its not forgotten.
14:15	ninjudd	who can?
14:16	hiredman	haskellers
14:16	hiredman	clojurebot: rimshot
14:16	clojurebot	Excuse me?
14:18	@rhickey	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebSockets
14:19	hiredman	it seems like something like websockets would be better added as a proxy clientish thing
14:19	@rhickey	hiredman: why?
14:20	hiredman	because not everyone wants to embed an http server
14:21	@rhickey	hiredman: you don't need an HTTP server for WebSockets
14:22	@rhickey	just sockets
14:22	cemerick	huh, so that HTTP-esque stuff is bogus.
14:23	@rhickey	It just has an HTTP compatible handshake
14:23	@rhickey	so you can initiate it via http from browsers
14:23	cemerick	Browsers: keeping security guys in full-employment since 1995.
14:24	@rhickey	but it is a lot easier to send character-by-character data to the reader via websockets than via HTTP
14:25	cemerick	yeah, it looks like it'll be totally reasonable.
14:35	scottj	rhickey: why isn't :or supported in seq destructuring?
14:38	ohpauleez	Does anyone have a good script example for lein's :repl-init-script
14:59	rickmode	As I develop using datatypes (defrecord in my case) I run into a quirk where I create a record, later recompile the defrecord, then use the old record. This old record's methods fail when called and instance? checks no longer work. Now, I presume this is because the underlying class has been recreated and so is simply not the same class as before, but this does seem to be a pain for long running processes.
15:04	chouser	even when using records it may make sense to use extend instead of implementing the methods inline in the defrecord
15:04	rickmode	Is this a side effect of using swank? I assume it would happen with any REPL. I wonder if datatypes could be "fixed" similar to Eclipse's hot code replacement. Am I nuts?
15:04	rickmode	chouser: would that effectively fix the issue?
15:05	kotarak	rickmode: I don't think so.
15:05	kotarak	Because the class changes.
15:05	kotarak	Ah.
15:05	kotarak	Maybe yes.
15:05	hiredman	you shouldn't be changing datatypes in a long running process
15:05	chouser	hm... no, but it would reduce the reasons for re-evaluating the defrecord to only when the fields change.
15:05	kotarak	The protocol still knows the old one.
15:06	rickmode	kotarak: so satisfies? will work and the protocol would be backwards compatible?
15:06	chouser	hm, actually if you re-eval the extend-type as well, the protocol will know about both
15:06	kotarak	maybe, haven't tested it. But when chouser says "no" ....
15:08	chouser	when you eval defrecord again, you're getting a completely different class with the same name
15:09	chouser	using extend means you need to do that less often.
15:09	rickmode	chouser, kotarak: I'm thinking I should put protocols and defrecords (and the like) in separate source files so minimize the problem, though it would be nice if that wasn't needed
15:14	lancepantz	anyone know what time the conj ends on saturday?
15:15	lancepantz	nm, its on the ticket
15:15	lancepantz	5:30
15:17	raek	(off topic: YECH! the colors of ERC on emacs in a terminal are horrible... anyone here have any advice?)
15:19	defn	raek: color-theme
15:19	defn	raek: make sure your terminal has support for 256colors
15:19	bhenry	http://alexpogosyan.com/color-theme-creator/
15:20	defn	meh screw those
15:20	defn	just use zenburn :)
15:20	lancepantz	wombat!
15:20	bhenry	i did until i found that. too much yellow in zenburn
15:20	lancepantz	i ported wombat from vim, it was hell though
15:20	bhenry	(if memory serves me correctly)
15:21	lancepantz	that site is awesome
15:23	scottj	lancepantz: too bad, someone did that long long ago
15:23	scottj	well a couple years ago, not that long I guess
15:23	lancepantz	:/
15:27	kotarak	How do I find out, where boxing is going on?
15:29	dnolen	kotarak: i think jvisualvm will show you
15:33	defn	Anyone know of a directory watcher written in Clojure?
15:33	defn	Something I can have execute some code everytime something in a diretory changes?
15:36	kotarak	dnolen: wow. jvisualvm is pretty self-explaining. Just fired it up. Connected to my session. And started profiling. Cool.
15:36	bhenry	defn: start here? http://github.com/wilkes/Kibitz/blob/master/src/kibitz/core.clj it looks like it wouldn't be very hard to pass a function to watch-project
15:38	defn	bhenry: yeah I was looking at that, just wansn't initially very enthused given his note on the README
15:39	defn	bhenry: ill try 'er out though
15:39	defn	thanks
16:03	defn	hmph, looks like most of kibbits is Stuart S's handywork
16:03	ninjudd	cemerick: i heard a rumor you're interested in writing some cake plugins for NSIS, ikvm, and proguard ;)
16:04	cemerick	ha!
16:04	cemerick	:-)
16:04	ninjudd	wouldn't be too hard. i'd recommend just wrapping the maven tasks ;-)
16:04	cemerick	lol
16:04	ninjudd	no point in reimplementing something like that
16:04	cemerick	indeed
16:05	ninjudd	i bet you could do it in less lines of code than your current pom.xml :P
16:06	cemerick	almost surely not -- if so, then polyglot maven wouldn't have been much of a project
16:06	ninjudd	how many lines is you pom.xml?
16:07	cemerick	(not that LoC is a worthwhile metric in either direction)
16:07	cemerick	My largest pom is 400 lines.
16:07	ninjudd	oh, that's too easy
16:08	cemerick	I beg you not to try :-)
16:08	ninjudd	of course not, you would be able to do it way quicker
16:09	cemerick	never gonna happen
16:09	LauJensen	Great, this is the kind of warfare I was hoping to jump into, good evening everybody! :)
16:09	cemerick	ninjudd: polyglot maven is sitting right over there, and I still don't use it because then my pom.clj files would be useless with all tools.
16:10	ninjudd	so you're addicted to the tools, huh?
16:10	cemerick	yeah, eclipse and hudson are nifty
16:11	cemerick	And I'm not an sexpr zealot, so I've little patience with rebuilding things just so I can change a bunch of <>'s to ()'s.
16:11	ninjudd	can't do a let in xml though
16:12	ninjudd	or map, reduce, et. al
16:12	AWizzArd	cemerick: before I look at the sources, what is the transporter for communication in your nREPL? Just some Sockets? http + rest? soap?
16:12	cemerick	Hrm, right, because I want that in my build definitions. ;-)
16:12	ninjudd	cemerick: you prefer copy and paste?
16:12	cemerick	AWizzArd: Very simple character-based protocol.
16:13	cemerick	ninjudd: I like not having to run all possible goals/tasks/whatever in a build in order to know exactly what it's going to do.
16:13	ninjudd	me too! that's exactly why cake uses a dependency-based model
16:14	cemerick	nah, that's a red-herring. I did ant for years (and still do, very occasionally). Thanks, but no thanks. :-)
16:15	cemerick	The point of a declarative build process is that one has the potential of determining exactly what will be done, without running the thing. Not so if you can inject arbitrary code into arbitrary stages/phases/whatever.
16:16	cemerick	That breaks down a little when you consider ant tasks or exec's in pom files, but buyer beware in those cases.
16:17	ninjudd	that breaks down a little when you have 400 line pom.xml files ;-)
16:18	ninjudd	i certainly cannot look at 400 lines of code and know what it is going to do.
16:18	cemerick	not at all true -- I can open that thing, and see exactly what goals are going to be run for any given phase in this nifty pom viewer in eclipse
16:20	ninjudd	i don't buy that. i think you're just more familiar with maven and the tools you use
16:22	cemerick	vs. what? I'm pretty well-versed in my build tools.
16:23	ninjudd	vs. cake/lein/ant/whatever
16:24	bobo_	one thing i love with maven, is when editing a sourcefile. and netbeans cant find the class. it can search maven and add it to dependencies.
16:24	bobo_	havent seen that with anything else
16:24	ninjudd	bobo_: doesn't lein-search provide something similar?
16:24	cemerick	ninjudd: and make and gradle and scons and sbt...
16:25	bobo_	ninjudd: well... kinda, but not as smooth. still have to search for it then?
16:25	cemerick	Many things can be said of me, but unacquainted with tools is not one of them. :-)
16:26	cemerick	rake and buildr are two I've never used
16:26	defn	via SOAP! via SOAP!
16:26	ninjudd	i didn't say that. i used the word addicted i think :p
16:26	shoover_	c'mon guys, give poor cemerick a break. he was in here talking about this stuff 10 hours ago
16:26	cemerick	shoover_: I'm the local build tool piñata
16:27	ninjudd	hey defn, what ever happened to the cake-search plugin you were working on?
16:27	shoover_	cemerick: I'm my own IRC unicode decoder, apparently
16:27	LauJensen	cemerick: I hope you don't mind these talks, I think they're educational
16:27	cemerick	heh
16:27	cemerick	not AFAICT
16:28	cemerick	most people in the clojure world appear to have a serious blub blind spot in this particular department
16:28	bobo_	build tools is almost as sensitive as vim vs emacs and dynamic vs static typing
16:29	ohpauleez	bobo_: My mother was a saint!!
16:29	ohpauleez	:)
16:29	AWizzArd	cemerick: wait, I didn't follow the discussion, but did someone mention Maven? ;)
16:29	lancepantz	oh jeesus
16:29	cemerick	My life the past couple of days, it seems :-/
16:29	lancepantz	i just got done reading the logs from this discussion this morning
16:29	ohpauleez	I'm waiting for #clojure to turn into a bar brawl so LauJensen and I can settle the vim vs emacs conversation, the celebrate our friendship over awesomewm
16:29	lancepantz	now scrolling back through my irc buffer, same thing
16:29	lancepantz	there's probably going to be multiple fights at the conj :)
16:30	bobo_	i have to get a i love maven t-short for conj-labs
16:30	cemerick	lancepantz: I doubt that
16:30	bobo_	*t-shirt
16:30	LauJensen	hehe, ohpauleez the Vim Vs Emacs discussion was settled years ago by Emacs, its just that the Vim users haven't realized that yet
16:30	lancepantz	</sarcasm> :)
16:30	ohpauleez	true talk, RMS uses vim inside emacs, which he uses as a psuedo screen
16:30	LauJensen	bobo_: Alright, but you understand I won't be able to guarantee your safety though, right? :)
16:30	cemerick	lancepantz: nah, I think you're entirely correct, I'm just being hopeful
16:31	bobo_	LauJensen: :-) il just login to awesome and start emacs.
16:31	ohpauleez	bobo_: You'll be safe
16:31	ohpauleez	barely
16:31	ohpauleez	but it should work
16:31	bobo_	or i can boot windows and start netbeans
16:31	LauJensen	bobo_: You can log into whatever you want, we'll primarily be working with Emacs and Eclipse, but there's freedom to use whatever you want
16:32	bobo_	LauJensen: yeh im just teasing you :-)
16:32	bobo_	im one of thoose that dont care what im using.
16:32	cemerick	LauJensen: you allow Eclipse? :-O
16:32	LauJensen	cemerick: We even support it :)
16:32	bobo_	"We" must be cgrand? :-)
16:32	LauJensen	cgrand has put in alot of work on the Eclipse plugin
16:32	LauJensen	bobo_: yea, like I said, "we" :)
16:32	cemerick	LauJensen: The churck of emacs will certainly excommunicate you for being associated with such subversive activities.
16:32	bobo_	:-)
16:33	LauJensen	cemerick: Im not a fanatic, I simply use Emacs because its superior to the alternatives, if that position changes I'll likely change with it
16:34	cemerick	I'm entirely unfamiliar with this well-reasoned, pragmatic LauJensen ;-)
16:34	LauJensen	cemerick: riight, when have I not claimed that Emacs is superior?
16:34	ninjudd	i use emacs because i will never be able to forget the command shortcuts. they were drilled into my head at such a formative age
16:36	LauJensen	ninjudd: Do you also get disappointed in Thunderbird or Firefox when you hit C-k and nothing happens? :)
16:36	lancepantz	does in chrome!
16:36	bobo_	indeed!
16:37	rich_holygoat	I am wedded to Vimperator
16:37	bobo_	actualy, it goes to the searchfield in firefox! :-)
16:37	rich_holygoat	keep hitting 't' and 'd' in Safari :D
16:38	bobo_	oh, floss weekly this week was just released, and its about emacs!
16:38	mrBliss	bobo_: Just started to download it :-) about org-mode
16:42	plathrop	I think I'm missing something obvious
16:42	plathrop	I've been iterating over some code in emacs/swank
16:42	plathrop	saved my progress in a file because I needed to restart my computer
16:43	plathrop	Now I've come back to it and I don't want to go over every form and use eval-last-sexp to load it into swank
16:43	plathrop	But (load "my-file") doesn't seem to load all the code
16:43	bobo_	M-x slime-eval-buffer
16:44	plathrop	thanks, bobo_ I knew it was something simple
16:44	bobo_	:-)
16:51	ninjudd	LauJensen: C-k works for me in firefox
16:51	LauJensen	k, it was just an example, I use Conkeror so I dont remember firefoxs bindings :)
16:52	ninjudd	may be an OS X thing
16:53	bhenry	if i pass a keyword into a function can i turn it into :keyword.dotsomething ?
16:54	bhenry	ie (let [x :x] (something here returns :x.extended))
16:56	briancarper	,(let [x :x] (keyword (str (name x) ".extended")))
16:56	clojurebot	:x.extended
16:56	bhenry	briancarper: thanks that's what i just tried.
17:05	amalloy	plathrop: C-c C-k works too, and takes less typing than this M-x blah blah nonsense
17:11	plathrop	What happened to the clojure.string docs?
17:19	jjido	can I assign three values in a vector to three variables at once? Like (let [a, b, c [3, 2, 1]] ...)
17:20	dnolen	jjido: yup
17:20	dnolen	,(let [[a b c] [1 2 3]] (println a b c))
17:20	clojurebot	1 2 3
17:20	jjido	great :)
17:29	amalloy	jjido: you don't even need them to be in a vector already, if this is more convenient for you:
17:29	amalloy	,(let [f (fn [& [a b c]] (println a b c))] (f 4 6 8))
17:29	clojurebot	4 6 8
17:30	ohpauleez	jjido: that above example is called destructuring
17:31	ohpauleez	it's used extensively in clojure, if you need to dig up more docs on it
17:31	ohpauleez	you can also do it with maps (which is very helpful)
17:35	amalloy	,(let [{name :first} {:last 'smith, :first 'david}] name)
17:35	clojurebot	david
18:50	lancepantz	anyone know if there is a way to get the arity of a lambda?
18:58	replaca	lancepantz: no, I don't believe there is
18:58	technomancy	lancepantz: it seems like a bug that metadata on fns is very sketchy
18:58	lancepantz	yeah, i expected meta to do it, returns nil though
18:59	amalloy	lancepantz: meta of a defn gets you arglists, but meta of a lambda doesn't seem to
18:59	replaca	technomancy: can you tell me how to install my own version of clojure for lein to use?
18:59	technomancy	really, nil? I get {:line 1}
18:59	technomancy	replaca: you mean to make lein itself use a version other than it uses out of the box?
19:00	ninjudd	,(contains? (transient #{1 2 3}) 3)
19:00	clojurebot	false
19:00	ninjudd	huh?
19:00	replaca	technomancy: no, so that my program uses a custom version that I made myself
19:00	lancepantz	,(meta #(println "hi"))
19:00	clojurebot	nil
19:00	amalloy	,(some #{3} (transient #{1 2 3}))
19:00	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.PersistentHashSet$TransientHashSet
19:01	technomancy	replaca: oh, I see. I would change the groupid in clojure's own pom.xml and mvn install from there, then make your project.clj match the new groupid
19:01	ninjudd	,((transient #{1 2 3}) 3)
19:01	clojurebot	3
19:01	hsuh	hey... whats the current state of enclojure vs emacs+swank+slime ?
19:01	ninjudd	i guess i can't use contains? for transients
19:01	replaca	technomancy: cool. what do the args to mvn install look like?
19:02	replaca	technomancy: does it just look at ./pom.xml?
19:02	technomancy	replaca: I'm not sure; I haven't built clojure from source in over a year
19:02	technomancy	probably
19:02	replaca	technomancy: believe it or not, I think I just found a showstopper bug in keywords
19:03	ohpauleez	ninjudd: How are you using the transient?
19:03	replaca	want to play with it and understand it better before I file
19:03	ohpauleez	I'm having a hard time to think of a case where you'd want to do that
19:03	replaca	(and also fix my program :-))
19:04	ninjudd	ohpauleez: why does one ever use transients? to make constructing large, persistent data structures faster
19:04	ohpauleez	right, typically in a loop
19:05	ninjudd	correct
19:05	ohpauleez	but I can't think why end that process using a contains? on the collect itself
19:05	ohpauleez	typically it's a function return or some other value that is used as a sentinel to return
19:06	ninjudd	ohpauleez: are you arguing that contains? shouldn't work on a transient because you can't think of why i would need it?
19:06	ohpauleez	haha, I'm not arguing for anything, I just couldn't come up with a use-case for using contains? on a transient
19:07	ninjudd	ohpauleez: i doing a breadth-first search of a large graph
19:07	ninjudd	the result of that search is an object which encapsulates all the paths that were found.
19:08	ninjudd	to avoid infinite loops, i have to check if a node has already been traversed, thus i need to call contains? on a transient
19:09	amalloy	ninjudd: it looks like clojure.lang.RT.contains() just checks whether something is an IPersistentSet
19:09	ohpauleez	the only way I can think of making that work is persistent!, checking, and transient'ing again
19:09	ninjudd	ohpauleez: that would kill performance
19:09	ohpauleez	totally
19:09	ohpauleez	completely defeats the purpose
19:09	ninjudd	,(get (transient #{1 2 3}) 3)
19:09	clojurebot	nil
19:10	ninjudd	get also doesn't work on transients
19:10	ohpauleez	,(get (transient #{1 2 3}) 0)
19:10	clojurebot	nil
19:10	ninjudd	,(get-in {:foo (transient #{1 2 3})} [:foo 3])
19:10	clojurebot	nil
19:10	ninjudd	and get-in
19:10	ohpauleez	right, this is very atypical usage
19:11	ninjudd	ohpauleez: i disagree
19:11	ohpauleez	can you gist the block? I'd totally love to take a look
19:11	ninjudd	;)
19:11	amalloy	ninjudd: sounds like a bug. ITransientSet has get/contains methods, but RT doesn't actually invoke them since it's using (instanceof) instead of polymorphism
19:12	ninjudd	ohpauleez: http://github.com/ninjudd/jiraph/blob/deftype/src/jiraph/walk.clj
19:12	ohpauleez	thanks
19:12	ninjudd	i am changing :includes? from a map to a set
19:13	ninjudd	which is what is causing the breakage
19:13	ninjudd	haven't checked the broken code in though
19:15	ninjudd	ohpauleez: i guess you're right about it being uncommon, otherwise someone would have found the bug already
19:16	ohpauleez	ninjudd: yeah, I'm gisting you a typical use of transients
19:16	ohpauleez	you usually transient in the let block that does the loop
19:17	ohpauleez	http://gist.github.com/594584
19:17	ninjudd	ohpauleez: that's what i'm doing. look at init-walk, which is called in the binding part of the loop
19:22	defn	anyone here ever remote pair?
19:22	defn	anyone here ever pair on clojure before?
19:23	ohpauleez	defn, as in pair programming?
19:23	defn	ohpauleez: yea
19:23	ohpauleez	yes, I have
19:23	ohpauleez	a few times
19:23	ohpauleez	in person and remotely
19:23	defn	i dont know anyone around my area who does any clojure, and i know precious few who pair
19:23	technomancy	defn: every day
19:23	defn	id like to get together and pair on a project some time
19:24	ninjudd	defn: where are you?
19:24	defn	Madison, WI
19:24	ohpauleez	defn: I use screen often to pair remotely
19:25	ohpauleez	defn: but I'd totally jump into a one-off channel on IRC, on screen, or PM a lot of gists
19:25	defn	ohpauleez: use Emacs? http://github.com/scymtym/rudel
19:25	defn	ohpauleez: as in, you'd be interested in pairing sometime?
19:26	technomancy	defn: I've found tmux/screen nicer than rudel if you're sharing more than one buffer
19:26	ohpauleez	I'm fine in both in emacs and vim. I use vim more, but that looks like a cool project
19:26	defn	technomancy: yeah i was looking at a link from HN today about tmux technomancy
19:26	defn	sorry for the double nick highlight, terrible [TAB] habit
19:27	defn	yeah ohpauleez -- i use vim at work mostly because the vim-rails bundle is far and away better than anything ive seen anyone come up with for Emacs
19:27	defn	there's just no comparison
19:27	defn	but i prefer emacs -- im not one of those vim-mode on the CL guys -- give me set -o emacs please
19:28	defn	technomancy: do you have any dotfiles or configuration stuff hanging out in your dotfiles related to tmux/screen for pairing?
19:28	technomancy	defn: sure, http://p.hagelb.org/.tmux.conf
19:28	defn	win.
19:29	defn	technomancy: wanna let me try it out on you? :D
19:30	ninjudd	i keep meaning to switch to tmux
19:31	technomancy	defn: already pairing w/ someone; sorry
19:31	technomancy	defn: you could join our seajure meetings; they're held in a tmux session. =)
19:31	ohpauleez	defn: rad, but yeah holler if you want another set of eyes or pairing
19:31	ohpauleez	technomancy: for real?!
19:31	ohpauleez	I'm in Eugene, OR and keep meaning to get on the train and head up for a meeting
19:33	defn	technomancy: no problem -- is that info on the seajure page?
19:33	defn	ohpauleez: im going to hold you to that.
19:33	technomancy	well it wouldn't be that useful without voip though
19:33	defn	ohpauleez: are you interested in pairing tomorrow?
19:33	defn	i just spent all day pairing and am a little worn out
19:35	ninjudd	ohpauleez, amalloy: thanks. i'm going to post this bug to clojure-dev
19:35	ohpauleez	ninjudd: cool, sorry I couldn't be more of a help
19:44	ninjudd	ohpauleez: no worries. for now i'm just using the alternate sytax
19:44	ninjudd	,((transient #{1 2 3}) 3)
19:44	clojurebot	3
20:07	dreish	Well this is unpleasant. Leiningen can't build an uberjar for a project that uses native-deps, since it cleans up and does lein deps, but not lein native-deps, before trying to make the jar.
20:08	technomancy	dreish: you can do a :disable-implicit-clean in project.clj
20:08	dreish	technomancy: That was easy.
20:08	technomancy	=)
20:09	technomancy	you could also add-hook on the deps task to run native-deps along with deps
20:09	technomancy	but this is easier
20:10	dreish	Yes, and now I have an uberjar.
20:10	dreish	Thanks.
20:10	dnolen	dreish: I don't think anyone's try to create a jar that contains native deps. From what I understand something fancy needs to be done to load native libs out of jar. Could be wrong tho.
20:10	dreish	I'll look into the add-hook later. I had a feeling it would be one or the other. Not too surprised it's both. :)
20:10	dnolen	s/try/tried
20:11	dreish	dnolen: Really? I could have sworn it worked a couple of versions ago, since I thought I'd run an uberjar that was doing a little test GL thing. I noticed it broke earlier this week.
20:11	dnolen	dreish: if you get it working, or if it just works, let me know :)
20:12	dreish	It does not work.
20:12	dreish	I could have sworn it used to.
20:12	ninjudd	dnolen: i implemented it, but there is a bug in clojure that prevents it from working correctly without a patch
20:13	ninjudd	http://github.com/ninjudd/classlojure
20:13	dnolen	ninjudd: oh yeah, I remember you talking about that.
20:13	ninjudd	cemerick actually blocked the patch because he said "it probably doesn't work in netbeans"
20:13	dnolen	huh
20:14	ninjudd	wasted a whole weekend trying to recreate the bug that he thought my patch would cause ;-)
20:14	ninjudd	i'm still planning to punch him for that when i see him...
20:15	dnolen	heh, well perhaps it should be reopened. Did you try the patched jar with Netbeans?
20:16	ninjudd	i did, and couldn't cause the bug. but netbeans is so confusing, i don't really know if my test was valid
20:16	ninjudd	but, cake supports native deps in jars just fine
20:16	dnolen	do you have a link to the ticket/patch, I'll try to check this out this weekend.
20:17	dnolen	ninjudd:^
20:17	ninjudd	automatically extracts them and sets your library path and everything
20:17	dnolen	ninjudd: yeah I've looked at classlojure
20:17	dreish	I guess I'll be trying cake this weekend.
20:17	ninjudd	dnolen: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure-dev/browse_thread/thread/f61b550abf7f9c52/da25ba7e31b9431c?q=
20:17	dnolen	ninjudd: thx
20:17	ninjudd	i remember cemerick said "this is something your tools should handle for you!"
20:18	ninjudd	he didn't realize i was going to write a build tool though rather than use maven ;-)
20:18	lancepantz	lol
20:21	defn	haters gonna hate
20:22	defn	isn't chas the guy who was all about polyglot build system and all of that, saying leiningen et al were a waste of time?
20:22	ninjudd	aye
20:22	defn	obviously not the guy who should be reviewing your patch then :)
20:23	defn	conflict of interest and such
20:23	ninjudd	i wouldn't say he's a hater though. just opinionated
20:23	defn	well said -- im down with opinionated software
20:23	defn	im just /more/ down with it when i agree with the opinion
20:23	ninjudd	hehe
20:24	ninjudd	so defn, you're almost done with your cake-search plugin, right?
20:24	defn	:X
20:25	ninjudd	maybe we can use tmux to pair on it one of these days ;-)
20:25	defn	ninjudd: that'd be cool actually
20:26	defn	im deeply introverted in certain ways
20:26	ninjudd	defn: you going to clojure-conj?
20:26	defn	but having a conversation about technical stuff is important to me
20:26	defn	something that has been hard with clojure given the community in my area
20:26	defn	ninjudd: i havent committed yes or no yet
20:26	defn	im going to strange loop
20:27	defn	im not currently employed and am running on fumes -- unless i can get a scholarship like ole Raynes to head down and hang out I think I may be out of luck
20:30	defn	'twould be awful nice to go, though -- i've spent a lot of time on disclojure, planet.clojure.in, reddit.com/r/clojure, groups.google.com/group/clojure, and so on over the last nearly two years and would like to meet some of you jerks
20:30	defn	ninjudd: i take it you're going?
20:30	lancepantz	he just left, but yeah, we're both going
20:31	replaca	technomancy: doing an "ant ci-build" seemed to do the trick (mvn install just created an empty file)
20:31	defn	lancepantz: cool
20:32	defn	lancepantz: strange loop is actually my first conference ever
20:32	lancepantz	yeah, i've never been to one either
20:32	defn	going alone to a conf makes me sort of nervous
20:32	defn	ive tried to get friends excited in clojure but im their weird friend who they dont invite to dinner parties for fear I bring up the STM
20:33	lancepantz	heh, well atleast it sounds like your friends program atleast
20:33	defn	debatable
20:34	defn	some of them get paid to write code but don't get my stamp of approval as being real programmers
20:35	defn	writing PHP web apps until the end of time is not being a programmer -- doing .NET for an insurance company for 10 years is not programming -- they work in environments where "design" and all of that are dirty words, things that are a "waste of time", mostly because they dont know how to do them
20:35	defn	</rant>
20:35	clojurebot	have you heard about the bird? is<reply>The bird, bird, bird, the bird is the word.
20:35	technomancy	clojurebot: you crack me up sometimes
20:35	clojurebot	Excuse me?
20:36	defn	trying to imitate an infobot
20:36	defn	for shame, clojurebot... for shame...
20:39	defn	do conference putter-onner-guys prohibit the taping of talks at conferences?
20:39	defn	i ask because ive seen mention of like 10 rhickey talks but never is there any video
20:40	hiredman	clojurebot: tv?
20:40	clojurebot	blip.tv is http://clojure.blip.tv/
21:28	alexyk	lancepantz: WTF is shell-env anyway? :)
21:29	lancepantz	a map of your bash environment
21:29	lancepantz	dnolen requested it for the textmate bundle
21:29	alexyk	lancepantz: I know, you renamed env to it and it screwed up that bundle! It used to be env, and Unix uses env, and Emacs ENV, and it's always $ENV!
21:29	alexyk	:)
21:30	alexyk	so now we found out and it's shell-env everywhere and it's ugly! :)
21:30	lancepantz	i wanted to use env for a more important feature
21:30	alexyk	lancepantz: like what?
21:31	alexyk	there's nothing more important on a Unix system than ENV. I dare you to search till the end of the Universe and find anything more important!
21:32	alexyk	and JVM has no env anyway. So rename it back! :)
21:32	lancepantz	i added an environment map the the project.clj
21:32	alexyk	hmm...
21:32	alexyk	so you'd have :env?
21:33	lancepantz	so :environment{:qa {:foo "bar"}} sets env to {:foo "bar"} when you set env=qa in your your .cake/config
21:33	alexyk	cemerick: when you see env, what comes to mind?
21:34	cemerick	shit, who am I gonna piss off? :-)
21:34	alexyk	cemerick: nobody, it's just a test
21:34	alexyk	don't look up
21:35	cemerick	something named env make me think someone made a bad design decision.
21:35	ninjudd	ha!
21:36	lancepantz	so shell-env would make more sense, right?
21:36	cemerick	Yup, I definitely pissed someone off.
21:40	ninjudd	a bad design decision would have been naming alexyk's ENV and lancepantz's env
21:40	alexyk	cemerick: wow, you deserve to represent UMass in Confgress!
21:40	alexyk	Conjgress
21:41	ninjudd	which lancepantz talked me out of
21:41	alexyk	I meant Western Mass
21:41	cemerick	Conjgress, huh?
21:41	alexyk	lancepantz's env is just fake-env
21:41	alexyk	or presets
21:42	alexyk	or args-alist or some such; it's not really an env
21:42	alexyk	env is shared by all shell things
21:42	lancepantz	i think cemerick has a good point, maybe shell-env and cake-env would make sense
21:42	ninjudd	yes it is deploy-env
21:43	ninjudd	alexyk: doesn't understand what it is for
21:43	alexyk	ninjudd: who doesn't?
21:43	ninjudd	cake/cake-env huh?
21:44	ninjudd	veto
21:44	ninjudd	alexyk: you
21:44	alexyk	ninjudd: I understand, but your env is not set by anything but cake right
21:45	ninjudd	it is for deployment environments.. equivalent to RAILS_ENV
21:46	ninjudd	neither is set by anything but cake
21:46	alexyk	yeah, Rails is to blame, DHH personally :)
21:47	ninjudd	alexyk: come up with a better name for deployment environment and you can have env back
21:48	alexyk	ok I'll ponder it over some fishing on the weekend :)
21:48	ninjudd	ok
21:49	ninjudd	can't have the word cake or lancepantz in it
21:49	cemerick	I have no idea what the topic is really, but any quasi-global dumping-ground environment is generally bad, regardless of what it's named.
21:49	alexyk	cemerick: blame Unix! it's useful for decades not for nothing
21:50	ninjudd	i believe maven calls them properties?
21:50	cemerick	Sure, but you're using a programming language with top-notch FP facilities and data structures to go along with it. If you've got a clean slate, why not use 'em?
21:51	alexyk	cemerick: you live and die in an env. Windows has env and Unix too... "Reality is something which doesn't stop to exist when you stop believing in it."
21:52	cemerick	bah. Compojure / ring eliminated the notion of global contexts for web applications.
21:52	cemerick	There is an environment, but it can be encapsulated, and restricted to local fn scope.
21:52	cemerick	Makes a lot of stuff easier.
21:53	ninjudd	alexyk and i are talking about two different things
21:53	alexyk	our env is to interface cake with TextMate on a Unix platform; an artefact of iterop with the big bad world out there
21:54	ninjudd	actually, it looks like maven calls them profiles: http://maven.apache.org/guides/introduction/introduction-to-profiles.html
21:55	alexyk	ninjudd: aha! cake/profile for you
21:56	alexyk	or cake/maven-profile
21:56	alexyk	:)
21:56	ninjudd	lancepantz: what about context?
21:57	ninjudd	alexyk: maybe we should keep discussions about what to name an obscure cake var in #cake.clj next time
21:57	alexyk	ninjudd: sure
21:58	cais2002	ninjudd: good morning
21:58	ninjudd	cais2002: good morning
21:58	alexyk	ninjudd: thanks for pondering it anyway
21:58	alexyk	the main thing TM/cake works beautifully
21:59	lancepantz	i think we can find something more obvious than context
21:59	alexyk	lancepantz: thanks too! you guys are doing a great job, nitpicking is all for sport
22:00	cais2002	ninjudd: I am a bit confused about how to use cake to do lein jar to exclude .svn folders
22:00	lancepantz	dont mind at all
22:01	ninjudd	cais2002: you would use cake instead of lein
22:01	ninjudd	cake jar
22:01	lancepantz	i'll let alexyk fish on it :)
22:02	lancepantz	trying to buy these damn tickets
22:07	nroot7	Is Actors in clojure have a 1:1 mapping with java threads or is it running on a thread pool ? What is the overhead of creating a actor ?
22:11	cemerick	nroot7: they're agents, not actors; and yes, they use two threadpools. The overhead involved is a single object creation IIRC.
22:14	nroot7	cemerick: Thanks. also found some reference here http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/2a2b24ffef5d1631
22:17	cemerick	nroot7: Sure; old, but still accurate. I presume you've seen this: http://clojure.org/agents
22:17	cemerick	The example gives an example of what the overhead is like.
22:17	cemerick	i.e. essentially none at all
22:21	ninjudd	alexyk: you can have env back. we came up with a better solution
22:22	ninjudd	and he's gone
22:22	ninjudd	i don't want him to spend his whole fishing trip thinking of variable names
22:24	ninjudd	does memoserv actually work?
22:25	ninjudd	clojurebot: does memoserv work?
22:26	clojurebot	http://haacked.com/images/haacked_com/WindowsLiveWriter/IConfigMapPathIsInaccessibleDueToItsProt_1446B/works-on-my-machine-starburst.png
22:26	ninjudd	good enough for me
22:26	ninjudd	sexpbot, do you agree?
22:28	dnolen	ANN: textmate-clojure, http://blip.tv/file/4160578
22:28	nroot7	What is the key binding on emacs to execute a line in buffer on the repl ?
22:28	lancepantz	congrats dnolen!
22:29	amalloy	nroot7: try C-c C-c
22:30	nroot7	amalloy : C-c C-c is undefined. I am using clojure box on windows.
22:30	amalloy	and you're in clojure mode?
22:31	dnolen	lancepantz: thx! most of the credit goes to other people tho :)
22:31	amalloy	you have to be in clojure mode, and have a connected slime/swank session, but after that C-c C-c should work
22:31	ninjudd	dnolen: awesome
22:31	hsuh	will i enter a world of pain if i try to develop a site with clojure these days? (needs mosfly file upload & sessions)
22:37	cais2002	ninjudd: finally managed to exclude .svn folder in lein by modifying jar.clj
22:37	amalloy	hsuh: i haven't tried it myself, but various #clojure regulars use compojure and seem to still be alive and sane
22:37	lancepantz	hsuh: compojure is great, but i don't have any experience with the html generation modules
22:39	hsuh	i read about it, and ring too.... which apparently has a session module
22:39	lancepantz	compojure is built on ring, and yeah sessions will probably be pain free
22:39	hsuh	cool
22:41	ninjudd	cais2002: ok
22:41	dnolen	if you're on HN and you like TextMate, upvote por favor, http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1722413
22:44	hsuh	dnolen: por favor?
22:48	dnolen	hsuh: oh sorry, please
22:50	kumarshantanu	hi, I need a slightly different merge-with behavior
22:50	kumarshantanu	,(merge-with vector {:a 10 :b 20} {:a 30 :c 40})
22:50	clojurebot	{:c 40, :a [10 30], :b 20}
22:51	kumarshantanu	I need {:c [40], :a [10 30], :b [20]}
22:51	kumarshantanu	any suggestions?
23:07	chouser	,(reduce (fn [m [k v]] (assoc m k (conj (m k []) v))) {} (concat {:a 10 :b 20} {:a 30 :c 40}))
23:07	clojurebot	{:c [40], :b [20], :a [10 30]}
23:07	chouser	,(apply merge-with concat (map (fn [[k v]] {k (list v)}) (concat {:a 10 :b 20} {:a 30 :c 40})))
23:07	clojurebot	{:c (40), :b (20), :a (10 30)}
23:08	chouser	kumarshantanu: a couple options there. hm, I wonder if there's something in contrib
23:09	kumarshantanu	chouser: thanks, it looks good
23:09	chouser	I'm sure I've seen a better way, but it's not coming to me.
23:34	kumarshantanu	chouser: I am using these functions where the keys :a, :b etc are actually maps -- I am getting nth not supported (maybe due to de-structuring?)
23:37	amalloy	kumarshantanu: hard to guess what you're doing wrong without a sample?
23:43	kumarshantanu	amalloy: right, maybe will post later -- got to rush now :(