#clojure – 2010-09-17

2010-09-17

00:01	hiredman	~translate from zh 青峰乡
00:01	clojurebot	Qingfeng Township
00:01	hiredman	no wonder it didn't work I misspelled translate
00:02	technomancy	hiredman: I pushed the sort-ns stuff I showed you: http://github.com/technomancy/durendal/blob/master/durendal.el
00:02	technomancy	ended up not calling it Yonderboy after all.
00:03	hiredman	heh
00:03	hiredman	nice
00:04	The_Jon_Smith	clojure gone rampant?
00:05	technomancy	http://www.discogs.com/artist/Lupus+Yonderboy <= review by a guy who calls himself "monad"
00:05	scottj	technomancy: what do you think of the highlight params in arg list change to swank-clojure? do you think you'll integrate it?
00:06	technomancy	scottj: was just about to take a look
00:07	scottj	ok, don't have to integrate immediately, I've got fixes coming for inside let bindings and in apply, but don't want to keep working on it if I know it won't get integrated since now it's good enough for me
00:07	technomancy	I just want to make sure it works on the packaged release of slime since it sounds like you're using trunk
00:07	scottj	correct
00:08	tomoj	great, the Mapper interface in hadoop 0.20.2 is deprecated in favor of a concrete Mapper class, subclass to extend
00:08	technomancy	half the classes in hadoop are deprecated
00:08	scottj	technomancy: btw I saw an issue or fork that claimed to fix autodoc on trunk. autodoc works for me on trunk
00:10	technomancy	with or without the patch?
00:10	scottj	wo
00:10	technomancy	gotcha
00:10	scottj	I didn't look to see what exactly the patch addressed or how he was loading autodoc
00:11	technomancy	I may have gotten confused since autodoc is also the name of a Clojure project.
00:11	scottj	oh I didn't even think of that who knows, maybe that's what he was talking about
00:11	technomancy	I am actually not a very in-depth slime user myself; I don't use any contribs beyond slime-repl
00:12	scottj	autodoc is so great, otherwise the arglist only updates when you type not when you browse
00:13	technomancy	I really wish the slime maintainers would take my patches to package up slime =\
00:13	technomancy	maintaining that all in my own fork is a pain
00:13	slyrus	slime-autodoc didn't work for me a while back
00:13	technomancy	do you have to do anything extra beyond loading slime-autodoc.el?
00:13	slyrus	or, I should say, it sort of worked, it just also occasionally hung slime
00:13	slyrus	which was no fun
00:14	scottj	I use (slime-setup '(slime-fancy))
00:14	slyrus	it would be great if it now worked reliably
00:14	technomancy	if the slime devs were more cooperative I'd have a lot more incentive to spend time getting the extra contribs working.
00:14	slyrus	what's wrong with the slime developers?
00:15	slyrus	other than, you know, not wanting to make any changes to make life easier for non-CL developers? :)
00:15	technomancy	they're not really interested in producing releases; they just want everyone to follow trunk all the time.
00:15	technomancy	using ... wait for it ... CVS.
00:15	hiredman	the drugstore?
00:16	technomancy	not much concern with stability or releases.
00:16	slyrus	git://sbcl.boinkor.net/slime.git
00:16	slyrus	works for me
00:16	technomancy	hiredman: in the words of Scott Chacon: "It's amusing that CVS sucks so much both as a VCS and as a pharmacy."
00:16	slyrus	hey, at least one doesn't have to download a jar off of some random website :)
00:16	technomancy	in the words of Coda Hale: "Is there a guy in an alley with a trenchcoat full of film canisters named RCS, because that would seal the deal."
00:17	scottj	my autodoc does stop working every once in awhile, though I'm not sure if that's ac-slime or swank-clojure, I don't think it's stalled slime itself though
00:18	technomancy	scottj: that slime-setup call doesn't seem to have an effect
00:18	technomancy	I should be looking for improved eldoc-style arg display in the minibuffer, right?
00:19	scottj	well, with my swank-clojure yeah, but w/o it slime-fancy should give you an updating param list as you move the cursor w/o entering test
00:19	scottj	text
00:19	technomancy	right, I've got your patches applied
00:20	technomancy	I'm not sure what I should be looking for with slime-autodoc and your patches
00:20	technomancy	but I guess they don't break anything, so I should just take 'em. =)
00:22	scottj	you might have to add slime/contrib to load-path before slime-set slime-fancy thingy
00:22	technomancy	right, got that part to eval
00:22	technomancy	just doesn't seem to affect my repl
00:23	technomancy	woo; Leiningen is now certified as 100% clean; no spyware/adware! http://mac.softpedia.com/get/Developer-Tools/Leiningen.shtml
00:23	technomancy	also: apparently it is 8kb. who knew?
00:25	technomancy	certifications: because something's gotta go in that empty space in your sidebar.
00:27	scottj	http://img295.imageshack.us/i/screenshot2sy.png/
00:28	technomancy	dang... that looks nice.
00:28	tomoj	where's point?
00:28	scottj	right " of "bar"
00:28	scottj	doesn't show up in screenshot for some reason
00:28	tomoj	that's nice, the having to press space thing is weird
00:29	technomancy	Well I went ahead and merged it even without getting it working
00:30	technomancy	and I added you to the project; so feel free to push future fixes as long as you can confirm they work in the latest slime package and not just trunk.
00:30	technomancy	anyone else want commit on swank?
00:30	scottj	latest slime through elpa?
00:30	technomancy	right
00:31	technomancy	is this the fork you were talking about re: autodoc? http://github.com/technomancy/swank-clojure/pull/22
00:33	scottj	yeah
00:34	scottj	I wonder why he took arglist-for-echo-area and copied it to be called autodoc
00:35	scottj	oh nevermind was reading commits in wrong order
00:36	scottj	damn, I should have looked closer at this, it might do exactly what mine does
00:36	technomancy	oh well, you won because you bugged me on IRC first. =)
00:37	technomancy	even though he submitted his first ... oh well. =\
00:38	scottj	I'm checking his out now to see if it's better
00:41	scottj	well to me it doesn't appear to do anything that wasn't already working, I'll ask him to clarify
00:42	scottj	it doesn't highlight current param
00:45	hugod	I believe that patch is a port of my original fix, to use rpc
00:45	hugod	in which case it doesn't do highlighting
00:45	hugod	it just fixed the protocol to not hang
00:46	technomancy	man... you guys know a lot more about slime than I do.
00:48	lancepantz	anyone happen to know anything about the resources directory in jetty?
00:49	lancepantz	i had been under the impression jetty included it on the class path for all contexts, intended for property files
01:20	Bahman	Hi all!
01:20	phobbs	hello
01:20	phobbs	=]
01:20	lancepantz	hi Bahman
01:21	Bahman	Hey phobbs, lancepantz.
01:21	phobbs	hehe
01:30	thunk	I missed the autodoc discussion a bit ago -- What're the correct incantations to get autodoc working sans hanging repl?
01:30	thunk	I'm running slime trunk and I just compiled and installed the newly patched swank-clojure, but I'm still getting the hanging repl.
01:33	technomancy	crazy kids with your trunk software, your long hair, and your loud music.
01:35	pyrtsa	Any Incanter developers up here?
01:36	thunk	This edge, it's sharp! I cut myself!
01:36	pyrtsa	Seems there's a bug in Incanter's $= function; ($= 10 - 1 + 10) returns -1, not 19.
01:38	pyrtsa	(I mean, $= macro.)
02:01	slyrus	technomancy: I thought it was us old lisp fogies that were running the trunk software?
02:02	technomancy	yeah, I'm confused
02:02	technomancy	kids shouldn't be using cvs
02:03	slyrus	the gateway version control system. next thing you know, they'll be wanting to use git.
02:04	slyrus	however, the loud music, with headphones anyway, sounds like a good idea
02:26	scottj	thunk: new swank-clojure doesn't fix hanging repl though there is a fork that might be merged that apparently does that
02:28	thunk	scottj: Thanks. You mentioned that you're not seeing the hanging repl -- are you running that fork?
02:28	scottj	nope, mine works fine
02:28	thunk	Hrm, any idea why?
02:28	scottj	does yours hang immediately or after a while?
02:30	thunk	It hangs immediately on evaluation of any non-atomic expression
02:30	thunk	Like, it hangs on (+ 1 2), but not on 1
02:30	scottj	yeah I don't have that problem. using lein swank , slime-fancy, cvs trunk
02:32	thunk	swank-clojure 1.3.0-SNAPSHOT ?
02:32	scottj	yeah
02:32	thunk	Weird.
02:32	scottj	and I've been using autodoc for ages w/o problem
02:36	scottj	technomancy: just made several improvements. pushed to my fork, how do I add it to your's?
02:37	zmila	,(let [[f & r] (sorted-set 1 3 2)] [f r])
02:37	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: PersistentTreeSet
02:38	zmila	,(let [ss (sorted-set 1 3 2)] [(first x) (next x)])
02:38	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: x in this context
02:38	zmila	,(let [ss (sorted-set 1 3 2)] [(first ss) (next ss)])
02:38	clojurebot	[1 (2 3)]
02:38	phobbs	zmila: you're right
02:38	zmila	why nth in set-destruction?
02:39	phobbs	good question
02:39	hiredman	zmila: [] is used for destructuring linear things
02:39	phobbs	sorted-set should be linear
02:39	hiredman	a set is not a linear thing like a list or a vector
02:40	phobbs	... it's sorted
02:40	hiredman	,(ancestors (class (sorted-set)))
02:40	clojurebot	#{clojure.lang.IPersistentSet clojure.lang.Sorted java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Seqable java.lang.Runnable java.io.Serializable java.util.Collection java.lang.Object java.util.Set clojure.lang.Reversible clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.APersistentSet :clojure.contrib.generic/any clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection java.lang.Iterable clojure.lang.AFn clojure.lang.IFn}
02:40	hiredman	^- not
02:40	phobbs	,(ancestors (class []))
02:40	clojurebot	#{java.util.List clojure.lang.IPersistentVector java.util.concurrent.Callable clojure.lang.Sequential clojure.lang.IMeta clojure.lang.Indexed clojure.lang.Counted clojure.lang.Seqable java.lang.Runnable java.io.Serializable java.util.Collection clojure.lang.ILookup java.lang.Object clojure.lang.Associative clojure.lang.IEditableCollection clojure.lang.Reversible clojure.lang.IObj clojure.lang.IPersistentStack java.util.Ran
02:41	hiredman	clojure.lang.Sequential
02:41	phobbs	ok
02:41	phobbs	so you're saying the system happens to be the way it is
02:41	phobbs	but I'm saying it shouldn't be that way
02:41	hiredman	shrug
02:41	phobbs	[f & r] should destructure a sorted set, otherwise it's broken
02:41	zmila	,(let [[f & r] (seq (sorted-set 1 3 2))] [f r])
02:41	clojurebot	[1 (2 3)]
02:41	phobbs	ah
02:41	phobbs	nice
02:54	_na_ka_na_	hello people, I want to make search functionality on my web app, is there a standard way or lib to do this?
02:54	_na_ka_na_	predicates can contain (in sql language) IN, NOT IN, <=, >= etc.. and contain numbers as well as strings
03:04	TheBusby	nakana: Apache's solr may be what you're looking for
03:13	_na_ka_na_	TheBusby: I already have a database ... what I'm looking for is .. some standard way to get search parameters from the ui (say json or xml) .. and convert it into clojure predicate function or something like that
03:14	_na_ka_na_	I don't want to invent a my own dsl for this
03:17	tomoj	what's your database?
03:19	tomoj	I mean, to do the search you're not going to just call filter on all your data with the predicate function, right?
03:20	LauJensen	Good morning guys - You have no idea how tough it was getting in here today :)
03:21	TheBusby	Lau: commute or network?
03:22	thunk	_na_ka_na_: Take a look at Apache Lucene and the way it's used in clojars-web: http://github.com/ato/clojars-web
03:22	LauJensen	Well. I boot up, only to find Awesome broken by an update. Jump out to tty1 to fix it, only to find out that I accidentally installed 'neo keyboard layout' for the ttys (dunno how I did that), so Ive had to sit and guess guys for 40 minutes until I could boot gnome instead
03:23	TheBusby	can't SSH into the box from another machine?
03:23	bobo_	lol
03:23	LauJensen	s/guys/keys/
03:23	sexpbot	<LauJensen> Well. I boot up, only to find Awesome broken by an update. Jump out to tty1 to fix it, only to find out that I accidentally installed 'neo keyboard layout' for the ttys (dunno how I did that), so Ive had to sit and guess keys for 40 minutes until I could boot gnome instead
03:24	TheBusby	I use dwm+dvorak and have run across similar problems in the past. I usually just SSH in to the box if the keymap gets too broken.
03:25	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: the fun with linux is that you are finally able to fix this in 40 minutes. On a windows box you'd have to reinstall the os and who knows what else, which would take 40 hours...
03:25	bartj	_na_ka_na_, give sphinx a look
03:26	bartj	_na_ka_na_, from what I have read, the search index is created from the database tables
03:27	tomoj	none of those provide a prebuilt way to map json into queries, though, do they?
03:27	ordnungswidrig	IntelliJ IDEA now has a "Powersafe mode" what the ???
03:27	LauJensen	This stuff really ticks me off. When you boot your computer in the morning, its because you want to get to work, not to debug your system. Guess I should stop running off the Arch/TESTING repos. Everything on my system is unstable, incl. the kernel
03:27	tomoj	well, if you're using solr for example you can just query solr, so there's no need for clojure code to parse queries
03:27	tomoj	similarly for the others I imagine
03:27	bobo_	LauJensen: yes, you should stop that
03:28	tomoj	LauJensen: hah. maybe play with the unstable stuff on a non-work box?
03:28	bobo_	i feel dangerus for using chrome unstable on my workbox.
03:28	bartj	_na_ka_na_, you can find a great deal of information here: http://www.quora.com/How-do-Solr-Lucene-and-Sphinx-compare
03:28	bartj	_na_ka_na_, which should help you decide
03:29	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: I know that, I usually run debian unstable. In 99% this gives me an advantage but the 1% days where suddenly "everthing" is broken are annoying
03:30	TheBusby	I recommend having other systems running bleeding edge stuff, but have your desk terminal running something super stable and just leave it on for months.
03:30	bobo_	in what way does it give you an advantage?
03:30	LauJensen	Guess I just should just keep a 2-day old backup which I can revert system files to
03:30	LauJensen	TheBusby: You're not like me, I dont function well if Im not on the bleeding edge
03:30	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: yea, its weird hearing 'debian' and 'advantage' in the same sentence
03:30	TheBusby	Lau: I do that as well, just not on my main terminal
03:31	ordnungswidrig	bobo_: newer version of git, gnome, X, whatever. debian stable has a slow release cycle
03:31	TheBusby	have two computers sitting side by side, the stable one connected by mouse and keyboard and the other connected via ssh -x
03:31	bobo_	oh yeh true, debian is special in that way
03:31	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: come on, the debian packaging system is rather well done and the package maintainers do an awesome job.
03:31	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: renanimg firefox to iceweasel is akword, though
03:31	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: the maintainers are commited, but apt-get is the worst packagemanager in the history of slow programs
03:32	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: slow?
03:32	LauJensen	apt-get is über slow. I think its like 110x slower than pacman
03:32	LauJensen	I can do about 80 system upgrades in around 80 seconds. apt-get cant even read its own database in that timeframe
03:33	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: I must admit that I never took care about that. But you're right, it is surprisingly slow. But I think in the last year it became faster. Might be my faster system.
03:33	LauJensen	But I remember the day, I had to install debian on a system for a hosted application. And there was some problem with the source I was loading, so I did a rebase and it said "rebase command not recognized", and I was like O_o. Then I hit git-version, and it was 1.1 or something like that, and this was 2007. I nearly fell of my chair, then determined never to install that distro anywhere ever again
03:34	LauJensen	I think I'll make a hacked Arch which just reports itself to be Debian in case a customer demands debian
03:34	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: g I suppose this was debian stable?
03:34	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: apt-get is still slow. And it doesn't clean up right
03:34	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: yea
03:35	TheBusby	I have better luck with Ubuntu server LTS releases
03:35	ordnungswidrig	debian stable can be expected to be old. Except you hit the first 6 months after releae.
03:35	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: you're on arch?
03:35	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: always, yea
03:37	LauJensen	Also, when you install Ubuntu and hit 'sudo netstat -lnput', you almost have to pipe that to 'more', on arch you get zero services on the network
03:37	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: so I'll try next time I install a desktop.
03:37	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: I have a screencast where I install Arch and then set it up as a pseduo-clustered Hadoop server :)
03:37	TheBusby	Lau: there is a significant difference between the desktop and server versions...
03:37	LauJensen	Doesn't tell you anything about its desktop capabilities. But be warned, if you dont know Arch, it takes a full day to install and customize
03:37	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: heard of nixos? Nice concept, isolate every package and every dependency by using hard-links and build a snapshot infrastructure for your system.
03:37	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: Never heard of it
03:37	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: about arch: I know how to google
03:37	ordnungswidrig	"In NixOS, the entire operating system — the kernel, applications, system packages, configuration files, and so on — is built by the http://nixos.org/nix from a description in a purely functional build language."
03:38	tomoj	LauJensen: pseudo-clustered means one box acting like a cluster?
03:38	scottj	,(/ (* 24 60 60) 80)
03:38	clojurebot	1080
03:38	scottj	just wondering how many times I can run apt-get while you install arch
03:38	LauJensen	tomoj: yea, a cluster only defined in xml, doesn physically exist
03:38	ordnungswidrig	scottj: point for you
03:38	bobo_	i use apt-get at most once a day. its okay if it takes a min
03:38	tomoj	LauJensen: do you use stuartsierra's clojure-hadoop?
03:38	LauJensen	tomoj: yes
03:39	ordnungswidrig	the idea of nixos resembles the idea of persistent data structures in a way
03:39	tomoj	I've been thinking today about my experience with it
03:39	tomoj	which has been terrible
03:39	LauJensen	really?
03:39	LauJensen	I loved it
03:39	tomoj	so I started trying to think up a replacement
03:39	tomoj	but I think I just haven't figured out how to use it yet
03:39	tomoj	I ended up uberjaring every time I wanted to do a run
03:40	tomoj	and debugging runs that errored out was difficult
03:40	ordnungswidrig	I think nixos has potential: "This builds and starts a virtual machine that contains the new system configuration"
03:40	tomoj	I think what I'd like is to be able to run a job from the repl and have exceptions pop up in the repl
03:40	tomoj	now I have to figure out if clojure-hadoop can do that...
03:41	ordnungswidrig	what do you guys use hadoop for?
03:41	LauJensen	tomoj: To run it from the repl requires some tricks, since Hadoop only accepts jobs in the jar format right?
03:41	ordnungswidrig	I never hat such big datasets that I was in need for massive job distribution
03:41	tomoj	well..
03:41	tomoj	clojure-hadoop provides a way to run a job where you don't have to use hadoop's framework
03:42	tomoj	just for running the job on your local machine to develop/test/debug
03:43	tomoj	so there must be some way to, from clojure, run a job
03:43	LauJensen	Ok, you mean just to simulate?
03:43	tomoj	I guess I can just call the gen-class's -main function..
03:44	tomoj	yeah, I had problems with input/output encoding for example, and I just kept uberjaring and running, and only got non-interactive cryptic stacktraces
03:44	tomoj	ordnungswidrig: I use hadoop for some NLP stuff
03:45	ordnungswidrig	would hadoop be the right to for implementing a recommender system? I mean the training phase?
03:46	tomoj	yes, but have you seen mahout?
03:47	ordnungswidrig	nope
03:47	ordnungswidrig	oh, nice.
03:48	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: Hadoop is right when you need to run a major (distributed) map-reduce process
03:49	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: you mean, when couchdb won't fit anymore :)
03:49	_na_ka_na_	tomoj: We are still tinkering to find the right db .. but we've created an interface layer between the app and the db .. so the app is bound to the interface .. one of the first impls is simply a in-memory db .. so my first thoughts are json --> clojure --> db specific .. what do you think?
03:49	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: no, 'map-reduce process'
03:50	TheBusby	However sick this sounds, I've actually had better luck with small C tools and the bashreduce script...
03:50	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: just kidding :-)
03:53	LauJensen	TheBusby: Sounds a little sick... We want the big guns :)
03:54	TheBusby	the implementation isn't "enterprisey", but it ends up being much faster than hadoop
03:54	TheBusby	at least for the jobs I need to deal with
03:55	LauJensen	Well, C is sickly fast
03:55	LauJensen	Quite impressive
03:56	ordnungswidrig	TheBusby: do you have many long jobs or very many short ones?
03:56	TheBusby	ordnungswidrig: long jobs
03:56	ordnungswidrig	well, I suppose, a cluster of FPGAs might be even faster
03:57	ordnungswidrig	but we'll have to wait for CiC until we have clojure on an FPGA, right?
03:58	jlk	hello everyone - i've got a bit of a problem with invoking a dynamic method on a java bean object, with the intent of calling a setXXX method using a map as an argument. looking around there seems to be two ways of doing this, one using a macro, which seems to fail when providing functions as arguments, or by using clojure.lang.Reflector, which seems to fail when proving a nil value to (into-array). has anyone had any luck with this
03:58	jlk	have any pointers?
03:59	ordnungswidrig	jik: have an example, gist, paste?
04:00	jlk	to clarify, (bean-cfg obj (merge {:name "value"} {:icon nil})) should evaluate as (.setName obj "value") (.setIcon obj nil)
04:00	jlk	one idea is using this (clojure.lang.Reflector/invokeInstanceMethod
04:00	jlk	obj
04:00	jlk	method-name
04:00	jlk	(into-array Object [v]))))
04:00	jlk
04:00	jlk	which comes from the pragmatic programmers book
04:00	TheBusby	Oh, one last thing and I'll shut up. Piping things together in bash runs each in piece in parallel, so you're really bound by IO and available CPU.
04:02	jlk	the other is using a macro to expand to (doto obj (.setXXX val)) etc, but i can't seem to get this working when the map is a function
04:05	ordnungswidrig	post your example to http://clojure.pastebin.com/
04:05	jlk	ok - i'll get onto that after tea :)
04:07	LauJensen	http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2010-September/017852.html
04:07	LauJensen	Hard not to think fondly of Slackware...
04:10	TheBusby	LauJensen: if you don't mind my asking, what do you find are the major advantages of awesome of dwm? (just found conkeror and wondering what other goodies you're already aware of ;)
04:10	TheBusby	s/of dwm/over dwm/
04:10	LauJensen	TheBusby: It enabled me to throw the mouse out the window :)
04:10	sexpbot	<TheBusby> LauJensen: if you don't mind my asking, what do you find are the major advantages of awesome over dwm? (just found conkeror and wondering what other goodies you're already aware of ;)
04:12	AWizzArd	Do we have a Swing expert here?
04:13	LauJensen	Gotta boot, I think Ive sorted out the broken cairo package now
04:15	LauJensen	There we go, much better
04:15	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Whats your Swing problem?
04:15	jave	hello all
04:17	AWizzArd	LauJensen: I am not sure what code exactly I am supposed to run in the Swing thread. As I understand it right now all code that modifies visible components must be executed via SwingUtilities/invokeLater.
04:18	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Things like setText setForground setBackground etc dont need invokeLater, and somethings like setVerticalPosition of a ScrollPane does
04:18	LauJensen	and sometimes, (future) works just as well :)
04:23	AWizzArd	LauJensen: how can I find out what exactly I should run via invokeLater?
04:23	LauJensen	the docs for invokelater? or trial and error.
04:23	LauJensen	Swing has many many inconsistencies
04:29	AWizzArd	So, the best strategy will be to let all fast running code run in that thread. Gui creation itself, and each modification of it.
04:37	LauJensen	AWizzArd: I know this sounds silly, but because of the amount of inconsistencies I build the main UIs, added the animation, found the 1 component which broke and put that in its own thread
04:57	fliebel	morning
04:58	LauJensen	morning
04:58	bartj	fliebel, morning
05:02	raek	how do I kill from the point to the beginning of the line in emacs?
05:09	r0man	raek: C-u -1 C-k ?
05:09	r0man	raek: no, nearly ;)
05:10	r0man	raek: C-u 0 C-k
05:11	phobbs	raek: C-k
05:12	LauJensen	raek: C-u 0 C-k, like r0man said
05:13	raek	that did what I wanted. thanks!
05:15	fliebel	Is that the equivalent of d ^ in vim?
05:15	LauJensen	fliebel: frankly, who cares? :)
05:19	phobbs	fliebel: no
05:19	phobbs	in Vim that would be "d $"
05:19	phobbs	killing to _end_ of line
05:20	phobbs	by default there isn't an easy way to kill to beginning of line without a kill-region
05:20	phobbs	but it's pretty easy to define a function that would
05:21	phobbs	(defun kill-to-beginning () (interactive) (kill-region (point) (beginning-of-line)))
05:21	LauJensen	Any JFreeChart experts here?
05:21	raek	LauJensen: those who use vim and are happy with it, I guess.
05:21	LauJensen	raek: you mean Chouser?
05:23	phobbs	er, nevermind
05:24	phobbs	(defun kill-to-beginning () (interactive)
05:24	phobbs	(kill-region (point)
05:24	phobbs	(save-excursion (beginning-of-line)
05:24	phobbs	(point))))
05:24	phobbs	geh
05:24	phobbs	that's annoying
05:25	phobbs	oh right, (line-beginning-position)
05:25	phobbs	my elisp is so rusty
05:26	phobbs	I also fail at reading
05:26	phobbs	durrr
05:27	phobbs	bed time
05:27	phobbs	I cannot think
05:27	jlk	ordnungswidrig: hello again, i've posted some examples to http://clojure.pastebin.com/x3ibpy8e
05:28	jlk	ordnungswidrig: i had some more, but have managed to delete them!
05:55	zmyrgel	hi, how can I test if a char is present in a string?
05:56	mrBliss	,(some {\a} "bladibla")
05:56	clojurebot	1
05:56	mrBliss	,(some {\a} "blodiblo")
05:56	clojurebot	1
05:56	mrBliss	not like that :)
05:57	LauJensen	,((set "hi there") \h)
05:57	clojurebot	\h
05:58	LauJensen	,((set "nil") \h)
05:58	clojurebot	nil
05:58	bobo_	,(.contains "asdfasdfasdfasdf" "a")
05:58	clojurebot	true
05:58	mrBliss	forgot the #!
05:58	bobo_	,(.contains "asdfasdfasdfasdf" "i")
05:58	clojurebot	false
05:58	mrBliss	,(some #{\a} "blodiblo")
05:58	clojurebot	nil
05:58	mrBliss	,(some {\a} "bladibla")
05:58	clojurebot	1
05:58	mrBliss	did it again ;(
05:59	zmyrgel	I think the .contains is a good way to go
05:59	mrBliss	I agree
06:00	LauJensen	Its by far the best of the options shown here
06:01	zmyrgel	its pretty hard to make chess engine with clojure
06:01	shanmu	Hello there, I am a newbie to Clojure, and I learning to process xml with Clojure
06:01	LauJensen	zmyrgel: really, why?
06:02	zmyrgel	LauJensen: can't just rewrite other engines as they aren't done with functional programming
06:02	shanmu	what's the difference between lazy-xml/parse-seq and lazy-xml/parse-tree, I have not been able to get lazy-xml/parse-seq to work with the examples from the source code?
06:03	zmyrgel	that and the fact that I haven't done any 'real' work with clojure :)
06:03	LauJensen	zmyrgel: ok, yes its hard to port imperative code to Clojure, but I think writing a chess engine will be a lot more gratifying in Clojure than any other language, especially PHP and Java
06:03	mrBliss	shanmu: have a look at clojure.xml and clojure.contrib.zip-filter.xml
06:04	zmyrgel	LauJensen: yeah, its been pretty fun coding this.
06:04	shanmu	mrBliss: Thanks, I did look at them and I was able to use them fine. I was interested in lazy-xml since it support xmlpull parsers...
06:05	mrBliss	shanmu: I'm planning to look into that myself sometime in the future
06:06	shanmu	mtBliss: I meant clojure.contrib.lazy-xml
06:06	mrBliss	shanmu: I figured
06:07	shanmu	mrBliss: oh..ok.. I am able to use lazy-xml/parse-trim fine.. its with lazy-xml/parse-seq I have problems
06:15	mrBliss	shanmu: same here :)
06:18	shanmu	mrBliss: :)
06:24	fliebel	I seem to remember there is some magic in Java to concatenate paths, can someone hint me it's location?
06:25	LauJensen	fliebel: java.io.file takes 2 constructors, root path and file, thats sometimes helpful
06:27	cemerick	fliebel: see clojure.java.io/file
06:27	cemerick	Wraps those ctors nicely
06:27	fliebel	cemerick: Helpful :)
06:29	LauJensen	fliebel: yea cemerick designed them nicely (make-file "<rootpath>/etc/</rootpath" "<filename>rc.conf</filename>"), it really couldn't be any simpler :)
06:30	mrBliss	shanmu: I got it working, have a look at http://github.com/clojure/clojure-contrib/blob/b8d2743d3a89e13fc9deb2844ca2167b34aaa9b6/src/main/clojure/clojure/contrib/lazy_xml.clj#L211
06:32	LauJensen	cemerick: that talk you gave about deployment recently, is it up anywhere?
06:32	cemerick	LauJensen: no; that was a dry run of the draft of a talk I suspect I'll be giving at the conj next month
06:33	LauJensen	Are those all being recorded?
06:33	cemerick	I'll probably keep the lid on the materials until then
06:33	cemerick	AFAIK, yes
06:33	LauJensen	Great
06:39	shanmu	mrBliss: that example only tests lazy-xml/parse-trim not lazy-xml/parse-seq
06:43	fliebel	What is this supposed to mean? java.lang.Exception: lib names inside prefix lists must not contain periods (site.clj:1)
06:43	neotyk	last Wednesday Amsterdam Clojurians hosted Uncle Bob Martin doing Clojure introduction, here is a recording of it: http://vimeo.com/15046335
06:44	fliebel	neotyk: Cool
06:44	mrBliss	fliebel: you cannot do (use '[clojure xml contrib.io])
06:44	mrBliss	mind the last .
06:45	zmyrgel	Where I can find which chars are allowed in records, function names etc.?
06:46	fliebel	mrBliss: Mine looks like (ns site (:use 'net.chouser.moustache))
06:46	fliebel	nvm
06:46	fliebel	quote
06:46	mrBliss	fliebel: indeed
06:47	mrBliss	zmyrgel: "Symbols begin with a non-numeric character and can contain alphanumeric characters and *, +, !, -, _, and ? (other characters will be allowed eventually"
06:50	zmyrgel	mrBliss: Thanks. Apparently gotta find new name for my 0x88state record
07:13	zmyrgel	How can I make my recur to be in tail position?
07:13	zmyrgel	http://pastebin.com/xBei5k5J
07:17	fliebel	zmyrgel: You have some parens mixed up I think, the board at the end is causing trouble
07:18	fliebel	zmyrgel: A fn is also a recur point, so why the loop?
07:22	zmyrgel	fliebel: no need to supply the arguments
07:22	zmyrgel	but I got it going again by replacing (when ..) stuff with cond
07:22	fliebel	okay :)
08:21	_fogus__	,+
08:21	clojurebot	#<core$_PLUS_ clojure.core$_PLUS_@2dacc6>
08:23	LauJensen	Im having this issue with JFreeChart, where the chart doesnt render if its not inside a JTabbedPane, JScrollPane and JPanel don't work - Anybody know whats up with that?
08:34	LauJensen	_fogus__: any good?
08:40	LauJensen	AWizzArd: Ive just seen an example now, where updating UI components using invokeLater caused the update to hang
08:41	_fogus__	LauJensen: It's not too bad. Very Uncle Bob-ish (tiny errors, mixed with grand statements, mixed with large errors, mixed with fact)
08:42	LauJensen	hehe
08:42	LauJensen	I'll have to see for myself I guess :)
08:43	fliebel	What is the best way to make data available to a Ring middleware? Lets say I gave a arg to my app, now hanging somewhere in -main, which started a jetty server. How is my poor middleware ever going to get to that arg? It feels wrong to put it somewhere global, so the middleware can access it.
08:46	fliebel	I could stuff it in an atom somewhere, or do something smart with closures, but it all feels wrong and very tightly coupled.
08:47	cemerick	fliebel: the premise seems like a warning sign
08:47	cemerick	middleware are ideally pure functions
08:47	fliebel	cemerick: It probably is...
08:47	shoover	fliebel: is it application state, or configuration data?
08:48	fliebel	shoover: Configuration. It's the path where the whole thing is running.
08:48	shoover	I don't see anything wrong with putting that in a global var
08:48	cemerick	that's a perfectly-reasonable var
08:48	cemerick	fliebel: although I'll have to berate you at some point for caring about where the whole thing is running ;-)
08:49	AWizzArd	LauJensen: Do you have a link to that example?
08:49	LauJensen	AWizzArd: no, its a proprietary system Im working on right now
08:50	shoover	fliebel: Also, if you consistently start java from the application root directory, relative paths in File objects will work fine
08:50	fliebel	shoover: That is the point, it might be started somewhere else, with a path as argument, and I'd like to know where to find my stuff in that case.
08:51	AWizzArd	LauJensen: Can you explain it? The only idea I have is that this update is time consuming and should run in a SwingWorker instead?
08:51	fliebel	cemerick: But I can't define a var inside of -main, can I?
08:51	cemerick	fliebel: you can, but problably wouldn't want to
08:52	cemerick	.setRootBinding will work, or you can just reset! an atom you put in the var
08:52	Chousuke	alter-var-root rather :P
08:52	fliebel	cemerick: So how do i get my path in a var? Atom?
08:52	cemerick	Chousuke: I'm old-school, I guess. :-P
08:52	LauJensen	fliebel: (app (with-your-middleware your-date) [""] your-handler)
08:52	cemerick	fliebel: Needing to know where the app is running should be absolutely unnecessary, it seems.
08:53	LauJensen	s/date/data/
08:53	sexpbot	<LauJensen> fliebel: (app (with-your-middleware your-data) [""] your-handler)
08:54	shoover	cemerick: One example of that in action is how ring looks for static files, looking in public/
08:55	fliebel	shoover: You pass a path to wrap-file, don't you?
08:55	cemerick	shoover: I think having ring serve static files is a little nutty. shrug
08:56	Chousuke	fliebel: couldn't you pass a classpath-relative path?
08:56	cemerick	just about any app container will serve static files better than ring will
08:58	shoover	cemerick: Probably so. Maybe someday I'll have enough traffic to care
08:58	cemerick	eh, it's not a scale thing, it's a separation-of-concerns thing.
08:59	cemerick	hrm, and a mime-type and etag and ... thing
09:00	shoover	ring can do Content-Type and Last-Modified, at least
09:00	fliebel	cemerick: I don't need to know where my app is running, but rather which dir contains the files to be served. When it's not '.', I'm screwed. So that is why my middleware needs to know where to look. That path is a command-lin arg, so only available in -main currently.
09:01	cemerick	fliebel: just use an app container, and let it serve your files (jetty or tomcat or grizzly or jboss or ... will do)
09:02	fliebel	cemerick: I'd do that for a real server, but this is only sortof a preview thing, which actually parses markdown, and not justs sends html.
09:02	cemerick	shoover: Yeah, it's not a hard problem at all, just something that I don't think should be in the stack at all. More-than-one-way-to-do-it is poisonous over the long haul, especially for commodity functionality.
09:03	cemerick	fliebel: you're not using jetty already somewhere?
09:03	fliebel	cemerick: Yea, for static files, but I need my Moustache app to parse markdown files, which live on the path variable I'm after.
09:05	shoover	fliebel: Pick one of def, alter-var-root, or binding, and you'll be fine
09:05	cemerick	fliebel: I'd drop them in the classpath, as Chousuke suggested. That's how I access enlive templates.
09:06	shoover	er, not binding, since other threads will probably process the requests
09:06	fliebel	cemerick: Fair enough…
09:08	fliebel	Cake puts resources on the path, right? So I can use that for testing.
09:10	fliebel	Hmmm, it seems Leiningen does, but Cake doesn't.
09:11	shoover	cemerick: Container and separation of concerns are such big words, and yet (route/files "/") is so easy. Do you know of any simple recipes to point to for ring+jetty+server static files from the container?
09:14	cemerick	shoover: It (and a pile of other things) become trivial once you internalize the use of war files.
09:14	cemerick	if you're hosting using embedded jetty, you'd have to dig into jetty's API (which is excellent, and very comprehensive)
09:15	shoover	cemerick: That hasn't happened yet :)
09:16	cemerick	shoover: Further on the dark side, there's jetty-maven-plugin, which will start an embedded jetty server and automatically add your projects' webapp resources to the static file search path.
09:18	lpetit	cemerick: (just arrived in the room) NOOOoooo ! Don't tell me you're rewriting a servlet container in pure clojure for the needs of your generic repl server ! ! ! :)
09:19	cemerick	lpetit: good lord no :-)
09:19	lpetit	feeew
09:19	cemerick	Trying to get folks to reuse webapp deployment tools, etc. :-)
09:19	cemerick	A common refrain for me these days, it seems.
09:20	cemerick	lpetit: Any thoughts on a default timeout for REPL invocations?
09:21	lpetit	cemerick: Concerning a user interaction, not an IDE interaction ?
09:22	cemerick	applicable to both, that would apply if no timeout is supplied by the client
09:23	cemerick	It seems like we shouldn't allow naive usage to spin up an infinite computation.
09:23	lpetit	aren't we supposed to work in asynchronous mode ?
09:23	lpetit	Oh, it's the timeout for the computation on the server side, sorry
09:23	cemerick	right
09:23	lpetit	1 minute ?
09:24	cemerick	heh, that's what I had chosen as a first thought
09:24	cemerick	:-)
09:24	lpetit	Long enough for most computations, small enough so that the user has the patience to wait and not brutally kill his REPL / IDE
09:24	lpetit	great minds etc. :)
09:27	fliebel	cemerick: I've added my dir to the cp. So far I'm able to load and do clojure stuff from it, but things like clojure.contrib.duck-streams/read-lines really do want a real path.
09:28	cemerick	fliebel: read-lines takes anything that duck-streams/reader will accept, including the URL you'd get from querying the classpath for a resource
09:30	cemerick	lpetit: FYI, a first cut of the REPL is done -- I'm getting the tests nailed down now. Everything should be in a github repo by noon-ish.
09:30	lpetit	cemerick: lein's support in ccw seems to be within reach of few work. Stephan Mühlstrasser had already done the hard work of understanding how to embed lein in an OSGi plugin (for use of the new "labrepl support" feature he added, which is not working in 0.0.62, but which I have debugged and will be part of 0.0.63). So now, thanks to lein's embedded support functions, it seems quite easy to dynamically generate "push-only" menu en
09:31	cemerick	that got cut off
09:31	cemerick	"push-only"
09:31	cemerick	?
09:31	lpetit	cemerick: wow. Almost wish I hadn't accepted this week-end trip with our friends, so that I could have played with it by tomorrow morning ! :)
09:31	fliebel	cemerick: Sounds good to me… How do I query the cp? I can't go about importing text files, can I?
09:33	cemerick	fliebel: use Class.getResource(). Getting a class from the right classloader (as opposed to just using java.lang.String, etc) is most easily done by referring to the class of a fn in your local namespace.
09:33	lpetit	cemerick: maybe, I must re-read the log's history... anyway I've given the links to yesterday's (or was it wednesday's ?) conversation on #clojure to smuhlst, he's willing to do it (and I'll don't have much time the next 30 days with the preparation of the slides for the conj)
09:33	cemerick	lpetit: well, I still need to get ccw using the new REPL
09:34	cemerick	That shouldn't take long, though the async nature of it may require a little reorganization.
09:34	lpetit	cemerick: I can help too
09:35	cemerick	Yeah, I'm wondering just how much breakage you're willing to walk into ;-)
09:35	lpetit	hmmm
09:48	fliebel	cemerick: I'm totally lost here… (.getResource Class "index.md") returns nil, and I can't figure out what you mean bu the ClassLoader stuff.
09:49	cemerick	fliebel: That will look for "index.md" via Class' class, which will use the boot classpath, which doesn't include your file.
09:50	cemerick	Classloader hierarchies are good things to know about.
09:50	fliebel	So I have to have a class in the location I want to use?
09:50	chouser	unfortunately, have also been known to cause brain damage
09:50	cemerick	Anyway, if you have a fn 'foo' in the middleware's namespace, then just do (.getResource (class foo) "index.md")
09:51	cemerick	hrm, or "/index.md", I forget if a slash prefix is necessary or not
09:51	chouser	not
09:51	chouser	,(.getResource (class (fn [])) "clojure/core.clj")
09:51	clojurebot	nil
09:51	chouser	oh. well, that worked for me just now
09:51	fliebel	Okay, so I'll need to define something there first,
09:51	chouser	,(.getResource (class (fn [])) "clojure/core__init.class")
09:52	clojurebot	nil
09:52	chouser	hmph
09:53	cemerick	fliebel: that's just a shortcut -- any fn that is loaded in the same classloader as that which contains a path to the dir that index.md is in will work as well
09:53	fliebel	oooh, it gives a java.net.URL
09:53	cemerick	yup
09:53	LauJensen	,(-> (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) (.getResource "clojure/core.clj"))
09:53	clojurebot	nil
09:53	LauJensen	oh well, works when its not in the sandbox
09:54	fliebel	I see :)
09:54	cemerick	,(-> (fn []) class (.getResource "clojure/core.clj"))
09:54	clojurebot	nil
09:54	cemerick	hrm
09:54	cemerick	That doesn't seem to be a sandbox issue -- there's no security manager denial.
09:55	LauJensen	cemerick: It works locally and Ive used it in webapps to serve resources from the jar
09:55	cemerick	,(-> (File. "/") .listFiles seq)
09:55	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Unable to resolve classname: File
09:55	LauJensen	-> (-> (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) (.getResource "clojure/core.clj"))
09:55	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
09:55	cemerick	,(-> (java.io.File. "/") .listFiles seq)
09:55	clojurebot	java.security.AccessControlException: access denied (java.io.FilePermission / read)
09:55	LauJensen	$mail Raynes (-> (clojure.lang.RT/baseLoader) (.getResource "clojure/core.clj"))
09:55	sexpbot	Message saved.
09:55	chouser	I knew about RT/baseLoader's .getResource, but didn't realize it was a method of Class.
09:55	LauJensen	cemerick: heard of file-seq ?
09:56	cemerick	LauJensen: yeah, but haven't internalized it nearly as well as I have File's methods
09:56	LauJensen	getResourceAsStream is the most useful in webapps
09:56	LauJensen	cemerick: commence internalization now plz
09:57	cemerick	unlikely. Just like I'll never forget .addActionListener, etc.
09:58	LauJensen	cemerick: Why should you forget that?
09:58	cemerick	Hopefully for a future where I'm not doing swing UIs anymore.
10:01	shoover	But you'd still need cemerick's snippet if for some reason you didn't want the seq to recurse, right?
10:11	LauJensen	shoover: yep
10:26	fliebel	Yeeeeeaaaa! It works! I dumped all my absolute paths for cp relative paths
10:26	arkh	is there a way to enumerate or count the number of running threads?
10:27	chouser	arkh: (keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces))
10:27	arkh	chouser: thank you
10:29	fliebel	Wow, I'm on 8 if I start a frsh repl :-o
10:29	chouser	4 here
10:30	chouser	,(map #(.getName %) (keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces)))
10:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: No such namespace: Thread
10:30	chouser	->(map #(.getName %) (keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces)))
10:30	sexpbot	java.lang.SecurityException: Code did not pass sandbox guidelines: ()
10:31	chouser	meh
10:31	chouser	("Reference Handler" "Signal Dispatcher" "main" "Finalizer")
10:31	fliebel	("Reference Handler" "Finalizer" "Thread-1" "Thread-0" "Signal Dispatcher" "DestroyJavaVM")
10:32	arkh	is there an issue with clojure.java.shell/sh leaving a thread hanging out after it's exec'ed process is finished? For every call of (sh), (count (keys (Thread/getAllStackTraces))) comes back with one addition thread
10:32	AWizzArd	Do you use Nimbus or http://weblogs.java.net/blog/wzberger/archive/2009/11/22/synthetica-blackeye-highlights ?
10:32	chouser	arkh: uh oh.
10:32	AWizzArd	oops, wrong window, that was for LauJensen :)
10:32	arkh	my program won't exit until I call (shutdown-agents)
10:32	chouser	arkh: yeah, that's expected. but the leaked thread is not, I think.
10:32	cemerick	the non-daemon threads in Agent.java strike again
10:33	chouser	cemerick: we also really did have issues when the default was the other way around.
10:33	arkh	at a repl, the prompt returns (so it's not totally blocking) but thread count increments with each call to (sh) still
10:34	chouser	oh, it's using future.
10:35	cemerick	chouser: IIRC, only in cases where mains would send some actions off (or similar) and assume that the related threads would hold the vm open
10:35	arkh	fwiw, future uses clojure.lang.Agent
10:35	chouser	arkh: I would expect those threads to get reused and/or cleaned up eventually
10:36	arkh	chouser: gc might take care of them?
10:36	arkh	I'd be ok with that
10:36	chouser	no, but the thread pool executor used by future should.
10:36	arkh	oh
10:38	arkh	chouser: you're correct
10:38	arkh	: )
10:39	arkh	if I do this: (dotimes [_ 10] (let [s (clojure.java.shell/sh "ls")] (prn s))), wait 10 seconds, do it again, I have 6 threads running by the end of it
10:39	chouser	heh, yeah. I just did: (dotimes [_ 1000] (clojure.java.shell/sh "ls") (Thread/sleep 100))
10:39	chouser	6 threads immediately afterward
10:40	chouser	that runs for almost 2 minutes, so don't get panicky
10:40	arkh	I feel good about using (sh) then - thanks : )
10:40	chouser	It would be nice if Agent named it pool threads better
10:53	hugod	I think I understand part of why the tests fail in c.c.logging - there is interaction between the tests, as if the tests were running in parallel - adding a binding for log/logging-agent within each of the failing tests should "fix" them
11:10	stuartsierra	hugod: can you post that somewhere I can look at it later?
11:10	stuartsierra	better yet, write a patch :)
11:12	hugod	stuartsierra: where would you like it - the user list? I'm at a loss to explain why there is an interaction
11:17	stuartsierra	hugod: are you on the dev list? I had a thread there about it
11:17	hugod	stuartsierra: membership pending last I checked...
11:19	cemerick	huh, I'm surprised that the conj talks are one / speaker
11:19	stuartsierra	hugod: user list, then
11:25	chouser	cemerick: I'm not too surprised. With one track, they probably just ran out of time slots.
11:26	shoover	oh man, if I can make it to clojure/conj I will know everything I need to about WAR files
11:26	chouser	assuming one talk per hour, we've already got 7 hours per day
11:27	cemerick	chouser: Didn't someone on the speakers list say the slots were 30m?
11:27	chouser	cemerick: yep, plus "plenty of time for questions and discussions" or something like that.
11:27	cemerick	oh, that's talk-time, not full-time-on-stage
11:28	chouser	I hope to prepare a couple of interesting things to talk about/collaborate on to fill up the unscheduled time.
11:28	cemerick	I really enjoyed the format of those quickfire talks at ILC.
11:28	chouser	"talk about" in the truely interactive sense -- conversations, not speeches.
11:42	chouser	cemerick: I didn't see any of those
11:42	chouser	paid for a whole conference and went for one day. :-P
11:43	cemerick	chouser: Right, I forgot you were only there the first day.
11:43	cemerick	It was a good time.
11:44	chouser	I'm sure it was
11:44	cemerick	I got to have dinner with Rich, Guy Steele, Sussman, Alexy Radul, and a variety of others.
11:44	cemerick	Quite memorable.
11:44	chouser	wow, awesome.
11:45	chouser	I ran into Guy Steele in the hall, but had nothing to say. :-/
11:46	cemerick	I can't say I had anything genius to say, either -- I remember there was a lot of transactional memory talk, as that was apparently the specialty of Victor and one other fellow on Guy's Fortress team.
11:46	cemerick	I was mostly there to take advantage of the osmosis. :-)
11:47	chouser	yeah, it's good to have other smart people there to ask questions for you. :-)
11:47	cemerick	ha
11:52	fliebel	Anyone knows what this might mean? http://clojure.pastebin.com/r3Wq4P6y I hate stack traces...
11:53	chouser	,{:a 1 :a 2}
11:53	clojurebot	Duplicate key: :a
11:53	chouser	,{"" 1, "" 2}
11:53	clojurebot	Duplicate key:
11:53	chouser	maybe something like that?
11:53	chouser	,{nil 1, nil 2}
11:53	clojurebot	Duplicate key: null
11:53	fliebel	Okay… Could be… no idea where though...
11:54	chouser	file_info.clj line 100
11:54	sdeobald	Hmm. I asked this in #leiningen, but I think everyone there is asleep or disinterested: Is there a standard way to force-execute code after `lein repl' finishes requiring in deps?
11:54	fliebel	chouser: That's a Ring files
11:55	sdeobald	Looking at the code, user-init runs before deps are loaded, and the loading of deps with load-hooks only requires (which makes sense).
11:56	sdeobald	Or perhaps there's a more sensible way to get a repl executing code when it starts? I'm sure there's an obvious answer I'm not thinking of.
11:57	ohpauleez	sdeobald: What do you need to run?
11:57	ohpauleez	could you just pack it in a function and call it via the repl?
11:57	ohpauleez	you can also write your own script and put it in 'scripts'
11:57	sdeobald	ohpauleez: Just a function as an entry point to a back-and-forth between the user and the repl.
11:58	ohpauleez	You may want to look into using a custom script (that in turn calls clojure's Repl stuff)
11:58	sdeobald	'scripts'? -- is that a standard lein thing?
11:59	sdeobald	Ah
12:00	chouser	fliebel: might be worth looking at that ring line anyway. Looks like the http request is bad somehow.
12:01	fliebel	chouser: Nope, my response is bad I think...
12:01	ohpauleez	sdeobald: Not a core feature, but a common plugin
12:01	sdeobald	ohpauleez: Ah, cool. Thanks.
12:02	hiredman	uh
12:02	ohpauleez	np
12:02	hiredman	does lein repl actually require deps?
12:02	hiredman	or does it just put lib on the classpath?
12:02	sdeobald	hiredman: heh... just noticed that.
12:03	chouser	nooo.. Uncle Bob lying to the masses...
12:03	sdeobald	The latter.
12:03	hiredman	chouser: stop the presses!
12:03	hiredman	(actually I am watching his video as we speak)
12:03	chouser	about Clojure, though. Someone is wrong on the internet!
12:03	chouser	hiredman: me too
12:03	ohpauleez	link?
12:03	clojurebot	your link is dead
12:04	hiredman	clojurebot: botsnack
12:04	clojurebot	thanks; that was delicious. (nom nom nom)
12:04	cemerick	chouser: what's the offense this time?
12:04	chouser	His intro to def and Var is wrong.
12:04	cemerick	didn't get that far
12:04	chouser	he said redefining a Var is undefined.
12:04	chouser	~17 minutes in
12:04	clojurebot	Gabh mo leithscéal?
12:04	chouser	ohpauleez: http://vimeo.com/15046335
12:04	ohpauleez	chouser: thank you kindly
12:05	hiredman	oh geez
12:05	hiredman	his code has parens on trailing lines
12:05	chouser	heh
12:06	chouser	gah
12:06	chouser	[] is not a Java Vector
12:06	cemerick	jeez, seriously?
12:07	chouser	I'm enjoying his style -- I'm sure many people will find it engaging and interesting.
12:07	adben	Hi everyone,
12:08	adben	I just want to share with you guys, this interesting intro video to clojure, http://vimeo.com/15046335 by Uncle bob martin
12:08	chouser	adben: we were just talking about that. :-)
12:09	hiredman	critiquing that
12:10	cemerick	chouser: I'm upbraiding him now. That vector snafu was bad.
12:11	chouser	he's now introducing defstruct
12:11	cemerick	yeah
12:11	cemerick	we need to get him in here on a regular basis or something.
12:11	chouser	:-)
12:12	technomancy	more like self-defstruct, amirite?
12:12	chouser	heh
12:12	chouser	underscore in fn name. heehee
12:13	ohpauleez	hahaha
12:14	chouser	but again, these are all fiddly details. The structure of this talk is good and engaging.
12:15	chouser	,(instance? java.util.HashMap {})
12:15	clojurebot	false
12:15	neotyk	,(instance? java.util.Map {})
12:15	clojurebot	true
12:15	neotyk	but he attracted a lot of people to this meeting
12:16	chouser	yup, fiddly detail. His point was correct, what he actually said was ... close.
12:16	hiredman	maybe I should get clojurebot's twitter transport working so ub can play with clojurebot via twitter
12:16	neotyk	we never had so many new faces in here so far
12:18	scottj	I can't stand his style, in this talk or his smalltalk one. he strikes me as one of those big idea guys that's not concerned with whether the precise details match up with his vision.
12:18	burritoboy	I have installed clojure and clojure-contrib through homebrew but clojure-contrib doesn't seem available when I try requiring through clj
12:19	chouser	scottj: hm, but at least he's at a repl. you can only get so far from the truth and still get things to actually work.
12:19	neotyk	and it was introduction session, way he is building things one on another was nice
12:19	chouser	neotyk: yes, I agree with that.
12:20	hiredman	burritoboy: don't "install" clojure
12:20	burritoboy	hiredman: why not?
12:20	chouser	I've done a couple intro talks recently and while I said fewer things that were untrue, I'm sure it was less interesting.
12:20	raek	burritoboy: that's usually not how clojure is used
12:21	hiredman	clojure is just another project dependency, so you will specify which versions of clojure/contrib in project.clj or pom.xml and your dependency management will get the right version for your project
12:21	chouser	really?
12:21	hiredman	clojurebot: lein?
12:21	clojurebot	lein uberjar bug is usually when you don't have a :main specified correctly: http://groups.google.com/group/leiningen/msg/d0a36ae9b92ab1f1
12:21	hiredman	clojurebot: jerk
12:21	raek	burritoboy: use http://github.com/liebke/cljr or http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen or http://github.com/ninjudd/cake to start up clojure
12:21	clojurebot	I don't understand.
12:22	technomancy	clojurebot: forget lein uberjar bug
12:22	cemerick	I suspect burritoboy is already confused. :-(
12:22	clojurebot	leiningen is a build tool designed not to set your hair on fire (http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen)
12:22	cemerick	burritoboy: there are getting started guides here for various environments: http://www.assembla.com/wiki/show/clojure/Getting_Started
12:22	hiredman	chouser: regardless of how you do it, using homebrew/apt-get/whatever system package management is clearly a bad idea
12:23	amalloy	yes. apt-get made things a hassle for me before i tried lein
12:23	chouser	:-(
12:23	cemerick	system package managers make a hash of anything java-library-related, AFAICT
12:24	chouser	I'm pretty sure that's java's fault
12:24	chouser	but I guess that's where we are, so ... sigh
12:24	technomancy	it's the fault of the don't put everything on the classpath mentality
12:24	cemerick	chouser: that's decidedly not the case IMO
12:25	burritoboy	so, I mean if I am just in the REPL and want to use a clojure-contrib lib then, I have to completely redo how I have clojure set up?
12:25	hiredman	you just have to do it right
12:25	hiredman	if you want it dirt simple
12:25	hiredman	clojurebot: dirt simple
12:25	clojurebot	http://www.thelastcitadel.com/dirt-simple-clojure
12:25	cemerick	burritoboy: if the contrib jar is on your classpath to begin with, then you can use contrib libs at your leisure
12:25	technomancy	hiredman: heh; syslink
12:26	hiredman	damn it
12:26	hiredman	I always do that
12:26	burritoboy	ok cool
12:27	raek	burritoboy: clojure-contrib needs to be on the classpath somehow. that's about it. there are vaious ways of handling the classpath and calling java on the command line might not be the simplest one...
12:27	chouser	"there is no looping construct in clojure except calling yourself"
12:27	scottj	while? :)
12:27	technomancy	wat
12:27	mrBliss	scottj: loop
12:28	burritoboy	raek: yeah, right now my CLASSPATH is blank, so I guess that is the only issue
12:28	scottj	mrBliss: oh I think of loop as a fn with recur as calling itself
12:29	chouser	scottj: that's mostly ok. :-)
12:29	hiredman	there was a time when fns weren't recur targets
12:30	chouser	,((fn f [a & b] (if (zero? a) (f 1 2 3) :ok)) 0)
12:30	clojurebot	:ok
12:30	chouser	,((fn f [a & b] (if (zero? a) (recur 1 2 3) :ok)) 0)
12:30	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Mismatched argument count to recur, expected: 2 args, got: 3
12:30	raek	with leiningen, after creating a project: "lein repl", manually: java -cp 'path/to/clojure.jar:path/to/clojure.contrib.jar:path/to/src/:path/to/another/lib.jar' clojure.main
12:31	raek	burritoboy: if you want to "just get a repl", try cljr. you only need to download one jar, then cljr takes care of everything else
12:33	chouser	s/list/seq/
12:34	burritoboy	raek: I have a repl working just fine, I am just to the next step of needing something from clojure-contrib, looks like I need to do a little more config to get that pulled into my classpath
12:35	cemerick	burritoboy: what language/platform are you most familiar with already?
12:35	burritoboy	cemerick: ruby
12:35	burritoboy	cemerick: unfortunately haven't done any java before
12:36	chouser	burritoboy: Steel yourself. It may hurt, but will be worth it in the end.
12:37	cemerick	burritoboy: Unless you want to learn the JVM bits in earnest right now (nevertheless recommended/necessary at some point), I'd point you at cake.
12:38	astoddard	Naive clojure swank question - it looks like having a big classpath results in very slow swank server startup. I should expect this?
12:38	burritoboy	chouser: yeah, thanks I am doing a little 'clojure for beginners' online class
12:38	burritoboy	cemerick: cool, I will take a look at cake
12:39	cemerick	burritoboy: if you're going to be helping anyone with any java or .NET background, I'd suggest you point them at maven + clojure-maven-plugin
12:40	burritoboy	cemerick: I am mostly being helped now, but I will be sure to point those folks that way, thanks
12:40	cemerick	oh, you're in the class -- I read your last msg as you were teaching others :-)
12:41	burritoboy	cemerick: ah, no, pupil here (if you couldn't already tell)
12:42	cemerick	You can go a long ways with just clojure core, a command line REPL, and little JVM-specific knowledge.
12:42	chouser	let does not create a var
12:43	burritoboy	cemerick: I am making headway with clojure core, and REPL, I basically know nothing of the JVM though
12:44	burritoboy	chouser: what about binding? ;)
12:44	Raynes	burritoboy: Which one are you? I'm one of the mentors on that class.
12:44	chouser	burritoboy: good question! binding also does not create a var. :-)
12:45	burritoboy	Raynes: Bobby Wilson
12:45	Raynes	LauJensen: Why should that work?
12:46	chouser	burritoboy: perhaps you're thinking of with-local-vars, but that it pretty rarely used.
12:49	LauJensen	Raynes: you know the deal
12:49	Raynes	LauJensen: No, seriously, I don't have any idea what that does.
12:51	chouser	type hints do not do "strong static typing", nor does hinting a fn's formal args make calls to it any faster.
12:52	LauJensen	Raynes: The deal is, if I cant eval code, I mail you :) And that just lets me get a URL or Stream handle to a resource on the classpath
12:52	LauJensen	I have to jet, good weekend everybody
12:53	ohpauleez	chouser: what brought that up? Just reviewing yesterday's lessons? :)
12:54	chouser	ohpauleez: I'm making true statements that contradict or clarify things I'm hearing Uncle Bob Martin say on this recording.
12:54	ohpauleez	ohh, gotcha. I couldn't get more than halfway through
12:54	chouser	ohpauleez: oh?
12:55	chouser	whew, done.
12:55	ohpauleez	I appreciated how he went about moving through the topics, and I'm happy to see more talks about clojure being done
12:55	chouser	Now I suppose I should collect these notes and do something useful with them.
12:55	chouser	ohpauleez: I fully agree.
12:56	scottj	post them in the comments to the video
12:56	ohpauleez	but I didn't like the general tone
12:57	ohpauleez	I tend to type hint when I don't have, for readability. Is this a bad practice that I should break?
12:57	mattrepl	if anyone's been using clj-oauth, please let me know. I'm baffled why it worked with Twitter a month ago, but now it doesn't. but it still works fine with other OAuth services
12:57	cemerick	I do the same thing
12:57	ohpauleez	It's usually done when I clean up comments, reorganize, etc
12:57	mattrepl	I'd like to collect a compatibility list so I can make sure bugs are squashed
12:57	cemerick	I'm not pedantic about it, but I certainly do it to clarify ambiguities
12:57	ohpauleez	same here
12:58	scottj	it beats writing a doc string that just relists all the args and what type they are
12:58	chouser	ohpauleez: I would generally recommend against it.
12:58	chouser	generally, type hinting things that don't need to by type hinted will not be checked by the compiler
12:58	ohpauleez	chouser: for style purposes or is there an unseen consequence?
12:59	chouser	,(let [a "5" b 10] (Integer/valueOf ^Integer a b))
12:59	clojurebot	5
13:00	ohpauleez	right
13:00	ohpauleez	so you're argument is they can be misleading
13:00	ohpauleez	or all together wrong
13:00	chouser	the type hint there is no better than a comment in it's effect on the compiler, but looks like its code that matters.
13:00	ohpauleez	ah, gotcha
13:00	Raynes	Oh wow. I have a src directory set up like src/clj src/jvm, and when I add src to the git repo with git add, it only sees src/jvm.
13:00	Raynes	That is annoying
13:01	chouser	Raynes: what?
13:01	cemerick	the src/clj dir is probably empty
13:01	chouser	ah
13:01	Raynes	cemerick: Nosir.
13:01	Raynes	I can't even add it after the fact. It's as if it simply doesn't see it.
13:02	cemerick	well, you can't add directories...
13:02	chouser	git add is recursive by default
13:02	cemerick	nm then
13:02	Raynes	I know, but there is definitely a file in there.
13:02	cemerick	I always use gitx :-P
13:02	scottj	.gitignore?
13:02	chouser	Raynes: do you have an .ignore setting somewhere?
13:02	chouser	what scottj said. :-)
13:03	Raynes	Oh, I think I see what might have caused that.
13:03	Raynes	Yeah, one of my subdirectories is webrepl, and I had that gitignore'd
13:03	Raynes	Never would have thought of that.
13:04	Raynes	This was one of those rare cases where I actually touched the .gitignore file.
13:07	ohpauleez	style suggestion: http://gist.github.com/584553
13:08	ohpauleez	don't mind the code, it's more or less justa delay
13:08	scottj	I think ^:foo is ^{:foo true}
13:09	stuartsierra	scottj: only in 1.3 onwards
13:09	ohpauleez	ahh, awesome, thank you scottj
13:09	ohpauleez	that's ok, I'm using 1.3
13:09	ohpauleez	but should it be done in style 1 or style 2
13:10	Chousuke	I like the second one
13:11	Chousuke	looks somewhat like a decorator
13:11	ohpauleez	that was my thought too, weird. But in the if statement, it looked a little funny
13:28	scottj	testers: what are you using to continually run your tests and display readable results?
13:29	scottj	s/results/error messages. it can be hard to see differences in not = form, would be nice to have differences highlighted or something
13:29	ohpauleez	scottj: difftest looks cool
13:30	ohpauleez	http://github.com/brentonashworth/lein-difftest
13:31	scottj	ohpauleez: sweet, thanks
13:31	ohpauleez	np
13:40	fliebel	Is there a way to get a defn- form another module? I mean… are they private in the Python or the Java sense of the word?
13:41	Raynes	I believe you can refer to a private var in another namespace with #'someprivatevar, can't you?
13:42	chouser	hm... hinting a static fn's args to be primitive may make some calls to it faster.
13:42	chouser	Raynes: yeah, #'other-namespace/var-name
13:42	Raynes	Oh.
13:42	hiredman	fliebel: compile time var resolution is blocked by {:private true} in the vars metadata
13:42	Raynes	I knew it was something like that.
13:42	chouser	that's the var itself. precede with @ if you want the value
13:43	fliebel	Let me see
13:43	hiredman	clojure doesn't have modules
13:43	hiredman	perhaps you mean namespaces?
13:43	fliebel	yea, those :)
13:43	fliebel	#'works :)
13:43	hiredman	well, say what you mean then
13:44	technomancy	chouser: some tools will show arglists in a more convenient place than the docstring, so I could see a case for putting human-facing type hints there.
13:44	Raynes	Whoa.
13:44	Raynes	Play nice. :\
13:44	fliebel	hiredman: I was trying to get a private var form another namespace, but #' seems to work. What exactly does it mean?
13:44	testfoobar	Wow, a decent browser-based irc client!
13:45	hiredman	,(macroexpand-1 '#'foo)
13:45	clojurebot	(var foo)
13:45	hiredman	clojurebot: special_forms
13:45	clojurebot	Excuse me?
13:45	hiredman	clojurebot: special forms?
13:45	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:45	hiredman	clojurebot: I hate you
13:45	clojurebot	excusez-moi
13:45	Raynes	http://clojure.org/special_forms#var
13:45	technomancy	hiredman: gotta keep your automaton under control.
13:46	hiredman	there is a list of special forms on the clojure website
13:46	hiredman	clojurebot: special forms \|are\| http://clojure.org/special_forms
13:46	clojurebot	Alles klar
13:47	unclebobmartin	Am I here?
13:47	cemerick	unclebobmartin: hey, you made it! :-)
13:47	unclebobmartin	<grin>
13:47	unclebobmartin	All the way from amsterdam...
13:47	cemerick	chouser: got those notes for unclebobmartin ?
13:47	cemerick	;-)
13:48	fliebel	unclebobmartin: Missed your talk there :( I was with the Amsterdam Clojurians just the week before.
13:48	cemerick	unclebobmartin: we were talking about your vid earlier.
13:48	unclebobmartin	Yeah, I saw them on twitter.
13:48	unclebobmartin	I was trying to be kind to the audience.
13:48	unclebobmartin	I did the presentation before records were added, and haven't changed it yet...
13:48	cemerick	Indeed, usually a good plan.
13:49	chouser	unclebobmartin: I just added some notes to your video.
13:49	unclebobmartin	Cool, thanks. I'll look them over.
13:49	cemerick	unclebobmartin: I found myself in a pedantic mood today, unfortunately. Glad to have you here, in any case.
13:50	unclebobmartin	The business about [1,2,3] being a vector... I understand that the vector is persistent, but I thought you could still pass it to Java as a java vector. Am I wrong about that?
13:50	cemerick	Clojure vectors are java.util.Lists
13:50	chouser	unclebobmartin: as I mentioned here before you arrived, I've given some intro talks recently and appreciated the way you structured yours -- much more engaging.
13:50	cemerick	so, no, you're right about the interop aspect, but there are huge semantic differences
13:51	unclebobmartin	Please go on...
13:51	cemerick	unclebobmartin: about Clojure vectors?
13:51	chouser	I have some details about that in my vimeo comments
13:51	chouser	here: http://vimeo.com/15046335
13:51	unclebobmartin	Yes, the semantic differences.
13:51	scottj	is there a predicate for whether a symbol is bound to a var? I'm trying to test if swank is loaded
13:52	chouser	scottj: try resolve
13:52	chouser	,(resolve 'this.is/not-here)
13:52	clojurebot	nil
13:52	cemerick	chouser: I don't see any comments of yours there?
13:53	chouser	,(resolve 'clojure.core/map)
13:53	clojurebot	#'clojure.core/map
13:53	chouser	cemerick: they ... just deleted them? and closed the comments!?
13:54	unclebobmartin	I'm looking for comments, but I don't see any on the vimeo page. what am I missing?
13:54	chouser	I didn't save them anywhere else, dangit.
13:54	cemerick	unclebobmartin: All clojure data structures are persistent, for one. Second, those that support efficient lookup are also IFns.
13:54	@rhickey	unclebobmartin: Clojure vectors are immutable while Java vectors are not. Clojure vectors are more like Java's ArrayLists in interface. But in all cases, Clojure's collections are different from the Java ones, but implement the read-only portion of the corresponding parent interface, i.e. j.u.List/Map/Set
13:54	chouser	I said all this :-(
13:54	cemerick	chouser: moderated?
13:54	chouser	it was visible. looks like it was then deleted.
13:55	@rhickey	chouser: in your comments? I can't see without refreshing, but am still watching
13:55	chouser	rhickey: my comments got deleted
13:55	cemerick	rhickey: they're just gone :-\|
13:55	chouser	ok, just found a backup. yay vim.
13:56	unclebobmartin	I"m not an irc wiz. can I reply to someone by just using their name and a colon? Is that a convention or does it keep the reply private?
13:56	fliebel	unclebobmartin: It just notifies the author
13:56	cemerick	unclebobmartin: Yup, that's right. that web irc client I linked for you also supports tab-completion of names.
13:56	unclebobmartin	cemerick: Oh, that's nice!
13:57	cemerick	Yeah, it's pretty decent :-)
13:57	cemerick	I'd suggest colloquy if you're going to use irc more than occasionally, though.
13:58	@rhickey	unclebobmartin: I've got to run, but cemerick and chouser are definitive, especially when combined :)
13:58	cemerick	This sounds like a Voltron episode.
14:00	chouser	ok, my comments: http://gist.github.com/584634
14:01	chouser	cemerick: I'm so glad you didn't say "power rangers"
14:01	fliebel	I thought I was supposed to put paths together like (clojure.java.io/file "/source" "/dir/" "/index.md") and Clojure would handle the slashes. But it gives me java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: /dir is not a relative path
14:02	_fogus__	Looks like I missed all the unclebob fun :(
14:03	chouser	_fogus__: he's still here
14:03	chouser	unclebobmartin: http://gist.github.com/584634 -- in case you missed my earlier link
14:03	stuartsierra	fliebel: 'file' assumes directory slashes between strings
14:04	fliebel	stuartsierra: I figures that… But now I nee to find another solution… Back to string magic, I guess.
14:04	scottj	(when (resolve 'somelib/foo) (somelib/foo)) doesn't work, is there another way to only eval/compile some code if a required lib is already there?
14:04	bobo_	chouser: very nice put
14:04	unclebob	OK, now I'm using colloquy.
14:04	stuartsierra	fliebel: (file (str ...))
14:08	fliebel	stuartsierra: I only need the path, I was using file to avoid having to deal with slashes or not. So just str with some selective striping will do.
14:08	stuartsierra	o
14:08	stuartsierra	k
14:10	hiredman	clojurebot: forget?
14:10	clojurebot	you need to put the verb in pipes
14:11	chouser	scottj: (when-let [foo (resolve 'somelib/foo)] (foo 1 2))
14:11	_fogus__	unclebob: Nice talk. Sounded like a fun group and definitely a fun speaker. :-)
14:13	unclebob	_fogus_: Thanks. I enjoy myself a bit too much with those talks.
14:14	cemerick	unclebob: I saw you were using IDEA -- what's your take on the current status of the clojure support there?
14:14	cemerick	I stay well-versed with the eclipse and netbeans plugins, but I rarely look in on intellij.
14:14	_fogus__	unclebob: It comes through in the audio. I wish that my talks were as effortless.
14:14	hiredman	also saw your trailing parens
14:15	jstirrell`	ok so I have to submit a school assignment and we can use any language so I'm using clojure. are there any problems with just sticking clojure.jar and a clj file in the same directory and calling clojure.main from the command line? does it matter what my namespace is with this structure? I'm running into wierd errors and im not sure if this is the reason
14:16	bobo_	jstirrell`: if you can, i would use leinigen och cake. makes everything easier.
14:17	ohpauleez	jstirrell`: I also suggest leiningen, and just build a jar or uberjar
14:17	Raynes	hiredman: Somewhere near, Greg Slepak is applauding.
14:17	scottj	cemerick: broken in several ways. someone said a total rewrite is coming soon, not sure if reliable
14:17	chouser	jstirrell`: something like java -cp clojure.jar clojure.main assignment.clj should work just fine
14:17	jstirrell`	yeah i normally do, but I was trying to avoid it to make things as simple as possible for the teacher who probably has never even heard of clojure
14:17	cemerick	scottj: hrm, so basically where it's always been :-\|
14:18	cemerick	I'm nearing the point of putting all my eggs in the eclipse basket. Seems like a pretty good bet.
14:18	scottj	ccw is good, and it's the only one that's been updated in many months I think
14:18	chouser	jstirrell`: uberjar isn't a bad idea either. then users only have to: java -jar your-uber.jar
14:19	jstirrell`	k sweet ill try that
14:19	cemerick	scottj: It definitely has a number of contributors. Laurent, cgrand, myself, and a few others.
14:27	_fogus__	So I guess I don't truly understand the format of the Conj talks. 30mins and then?
14:28	chouser	...then everybody mobs rhickey until the next talk starts.
14:28	_fogus__	Oh, so I guess I did understand. :p
14:28	cemerick	_fogus_: I was poking around the same topic earlier. I'm sure a schedule isn't far away.
14:29	chouser	I don't know either, but I expect unscheduled time to be very enjoyable and maybe even productive.
14:29	jstirrell`	anyone know a good place to put the lein file in gentoo?
14:29	hiredman	~/bin
14:29	clojurebot	It's greek to me.
14:30	jstirrell`	k thank
14:30	chouser	single track should allow for more ad-hoc activities than if people were off in different rooms
14:30	cemerick	I suspect a number of people will have things running on the side in between talks, after lunch, etc.
14:30	cemerick	I have one pet topic that I'd like to get something around. Hopefully it'll come off nicely.
14:30	chouser	cemerick: yeah, like that. whatever it is. :-)
14:31	_fogus__	I guess my question is, the talks are 30-mins, and then what happens next? Milling around for 30-mins until the next talk?
14:31	_fogus__	I guess I should wait for a schedule.
14:31	bobo_	im going insane on paredit, is there any good video tutorial anywhere? havent found any
14:32	scottj	chouser: valiant effort. couldn't get your way to work for me so used eval, let me know if I missed something http://gist.github.com/584694
14:33	dnolen	bobo_: visual guide here, http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit-beta.html
14:33	scottj	hmm, cemerick's pet topic, could it be ide support? :)
14:33	bobo_	dnolen: thanks il have a look
14:33	cemerick	scottj: no, Laurent is going to cover that ably, I'm sure.
14:34	scottj	_fogus__: does 30 min include questions?
14:34	chouser	scottj: no
14:35	ranjit_c	Can somebody help me figure out what I'm doing wrong in trying to use a library?
14:35	chouser	we'll need at least 30 minutes between talks to get the next speaker's laptop working with the projector
14:35	ranjit_c	if i evaluate this : (use '(clojure.contrib.combinatorics))
14:36	ranjit_c	and then this: (doc cartesian-product)
14:36	chouser	scottj: doing def-things in eval like that isn't too horrible
14:36	ranjit_c	i get an error
14:36	ranjit_c	i'm not sure why
14:36	chouser	ranjit_c: try (use 'clojure.contrib.combinatorics)
14:37	ranjit_c	that worked, thanks
14:37	ranjit_c	i was pretty sure i tried that, but i guess no
14:37	ranjit_c	t
14:38	arohner	stupid question: how do you build lein? lein uberjar isn't uber'ing for me
14:38	arohner	(no jars included in the uber, except lein.jar)
14:40	ohpauleez	arohner: Pull the git repo, and there are hacking directions in there
14:40	ohpauleez	eseentially you use lein and lein compile
14:40	ohpauleez	use a stable lein, to compile the dev lein
14:40	ohpauleez	then soft link your lein command to the new dev command
14:41	ohpauleez	and move the old stable lein to lein-stable
14:41	arohner	ohpauleez: I'm looking at the hacking instructions, and I don't see it
14:41	vlaisney	arohner: you need only to get the script, which downloads and compile lein
14:42	arohner	I'm experimenting with a bug fix. I've made the "normal" lein jar, and now I want to make a standalone jar that I can put in ~/.m2, because that's what the bash script looks for
14:43	arohner	and the lein uberjar I built doesn't have the dependency jars, but the one I downloaded does
14:43	jstirrell`	ok anyone have any idea why this program isn't working (it prints 0 for all values) as it's supposed to, but if i just put everything in the repl (not in functions) it works fine?
14:43	jstirrell`	http://gist.github.com/584718
14:44	arohner	jstirrell`: map is lazy. It only prints when it has to. The repl forces map to print, but your program doesn't
14:44	arohner	sorry, it only evaluates when it has to
14:44	jstirrell`	so dorun to the maps should fix that?
14:44	arohner	jstirrell`: yes
14:45	jstirrell`	ok thanks! i thought it was something like that
14:47	ranjit_c	okay, so i've still got a problem
14:47	ranjit_c	(doc cartesian-product) works
14:47	clojurebot	"clojure.contrib.combinatorics/cartesian-product;[[& seqs]]; All the ways to take one item from each sequence"
14:47	ranjit_c	but for some reason (cartesian-product (1 2) (3 4)) dies
14:48	sivajag	Hi
14:48	ranjit_c	with the error unable to resolve symbol in this context
14:50	ranjit_c	actually now (use 'clojure.contrib.combinatorics) doesn't work either
14:50	ranjit_c	i get this error: Could not locate clojure/contrib/combinatorics__init.class or clojure/contrib/combinatorics.clj on classpath:
14:51	ranjit_c	is there something i'm supposed to configure in setting up the repl?
14:52	chouser	ranjit_c: (1 2) will try to call function 1 with the argument 2 -- not what you want.
14:52	ranjit_c	quoting it didn't help though
14:53	ranjit_c	when i tried it before it worked, but i launched swank from within a copy of incanter i checked out from github
14:53	sivajag_	hey
14:53	poincare101	hello.
14:54	ranjit_c	now when i try it in another directory that i created the (use ...) expression throws an error
14:54	chouser	sivajag_, poincare101: hello
14:55	chouser	ranjit_c: perhaps you have some relative path (like ".") in your classpath, in which case the directory you start the jvm in will matter.
14:55	ranjit_c	how can i check that?
14:56	ranjit_c	i'm a bit rusty with the shell
14:56	ranjit_c	i just tried printenv
14:56	ranjit_c	i don't see anything named CLASSPATH
14:56	ranjit_c	isn't that what i should see?
14:56	chouser	it completely depends on how you start the jvm, I'm afraid
14:56	ranjit_c	ah
14:57	chouser	I'm not yet familier with any of the way kids are starting clojure these days, but people seem to like cake, lein, etc.
14:57	ranjit_c	i think it's being started by the command "lein swank"
14:57	ranjit_c	actually i guess it must be
14:58	ranjit_c	then i connect from emacs to the repl
14:58	chouser	ah, yes. so lein is managing your classpath for you. just make sure it knows you want contrib, perhaps via the project.clj file?
14:59	ranjit_c	that's what i would have guessed, but when I looked at the project.clj for incanter i don't think I saw an explicit reference to contrib
14:59	ranjit_c	i'll check again
14:59	jstirrell`	sorry for all the noob questions, but what's the best way to directly print a unicode value
15:00	_fogus__	ranjit_c: Incanter is modularized, so the core module might not use contrib.
15:01	ranjit_c	oh so i'm able to see contrib because there's a project.clj further down the tree that includes it?
15:01	shoover	chouser: Are you writing your own shell script launchers?
15:01	ranjit_c	yes there it is
15:01	chouser	shoover: not anymore, I promise!
15:01	_fogus__	ranjit_c: Could be.
15:01	ranjit_c	thanks that makes sense now
15:01	shoover	chouser: just asking :)
15:02	chouser	shoover: I just have what I wrote before lein was a twinkle in technomancy's eye. It hasn't broken badly enough yet for me to fix it.
15:02	ranjit_c	i see a reference to clojure itself
15:02	ranjit_c	is that really necessary?
15:02	chouser	er, replace it.
15:02	jcromartie	I am saddened by an apparent mismatch between Clojure and typical relational database schemas.
15:03	_fogus__	,\u30DE
15:03	clojurebot	\マ
15:03	_fogus__	interesting
15:03	jcromartie	or is it just ORMs and Clojure that I'm having trouble grokking
15:03	shoover	what is that?!
15:04	chouser	jcromartie: ORMs are mismatches personified
15:04	jcromartie	yeah, hmm
15:04	chouser	:-)
15:04	_fogus__	jstirrell`: Is that what you mean? ^^^
15:05	jcromartie	hmm, maybe treat the database itself as a ref...
15:05	jcromartie	or a ref-like object
15:05	hiredman	huh
15:05	hiredman	a database table is like a vector of maps
15:05	hiredman	where is the mismatch?
15:07	jcromartie	I guess it's not inehrent
15:07	scottj	vector binding supports :as, does it support defaults?
15:07	_fogus__	,(str \u30DE \u30A3 \u30AF)
15:07	jcromartie	a database could be designed so that rows are immutable
15:07	clojurebot	"マィク"
15:07	jcromartie	or at least as much as possible
15:07	jcromartie	some way of mapping seqs to database tables would be awesome
15:08	jcromartie	like, say, I've got this accounting system, and I'd like to store bills as an initial state and a seq of changes
15:09	pjstadig	_fogus__: what are you up to? :)
15:09	jcromartie	to just be able to deal with the seq of changes in Clojure and then say "save this" would be nice
15:09	jcromartie	and probably totally doable
15:09	_fogus__	jcromartie: http://github.com/brentonashworth/carte
15:11	_fogus__	pjstadig: Originally trying to answer a question, but now just having fun
15:11	jcromartie	very nice
15:11	jcromartie	thanks
15:11	jcromartie	(_fogus__)
15:15	scottj	is there a shorter version of (defn foo [& [b]] (let [b (or b "default")] b))
15:16	scottj	other than keyword args
15:16	scottj	and multi fntails
15:19	jcromartie	nilfn?
15:19	jcromartie	fnil
15:21	jcromartie	nevermind
15:21	jcromartie	fnil has a fixed arity
15:21	jcromartie	the result, that is
15:22	chouser	scottj: arity overriding looks pretty nice in this case.
15:23	chouser	(defn foo ([] (foo "default")) ([b] b))
15:23	chouser	overloading
15:23	scottj	yeah, it doesn't scale well to several args though
15:23	jcromartie	I think it would be clean
15:24	scottj	I hate writing the arg names twice just to define a default value for an optional arg
15:24	jcromartie	if you just mean you have 1, 2, and 3 args, etc.
15:25	chouser	you want something like (defn foo [& [(b "default")]] b) don't you
15:26	scottj	yep, or (defn foo [& [b :or {0 "default"}]..
15:27	chouser	(defn foo [& [b :or {b "default"}]] ...) maybe
15:27	scottj	does :or work in vector binding?
15:27	scottj	I couldn't get it to work
15:28	hiredman	:or is a feature of associative destructuring
15:29	hiredman	[] is for sequential destructuring
15:32	scottj	[] is associative (I know I know)
15:33	hiredman	as a datastructure vectors are associative
15:33	hiredman	but as a binding form, they are for binding sequential things
15:33	hiredman	destructuring form rather
15:33	hiredman	if you want to destructuring something in an associative way use a map desctructur
15:43	bhenry	don't forget clojure.contrib.def/defnk. (defnk foo [positional args :keyword-args "default values"] ...)
15:45	chouser	I think you used to be able to destructure vectors on their indexes, but keyword destructuring took over that syntax
15:45	chouser	I'mnot sure.
15:47	hiredman	,(let [{a 0 b 1} [:A :B :C]] [a b])
15:47	clojurebot	[:A :B]
15:48	hiredman	you can destructure a vector associatively just fine
15:48	scottj	bhenry: but can you invoke a fn from defnk with one optional arg w/o giving a keyword?
15:48	chouser	hiredman: oh, indeed. what was I doing?
15:49	chouser	oh, but not the seq that & makes for you, of course.
15:51	hiredman	of course, because it's a seq and not associative in anyway
15:51	chouser	right. I don't know what I was thinking.
15:52	chouser	what was that proposed syntax for expressions on the left side
15:52	chouser	-> I think.
15:52	sexpbot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: I in this context
15:53	hiredman	huh?
15:53	chouser	(defn foo [& [(-> (or "default") b)]] b)
15:53	hiredman	eww
15:54	Raynes	o.o
15:54	chouser	heh. I wrote a patch and everything
15:55	chouser	but even those of us who were strangely attracted to it knew it wasn't good.
15:55	hiredman	I'm still reeling, tried to get clj-nstools used at work and was shouted down
15:55	chouser	by clojure users?
15:55	hiredman	phil and I even used user.clj to monkey patch clojure.core so ns+ would be available everywhere without an extra use
15:56	hiredman	yes
15:58	scottj	how do you get lein to user user.clj for repl, swank, test?
15:58	hiredman	you put it in src/
15:58	hiredman	clojure RT loads it
15:59	scottj	oh I was thinking ~/.clojure/user.clj
15:59	hiredman	clojure RT loads the first user.clj it finds
15:59	fliebel	hiredman: How do you monkey patch something in Clojure?
15:59	hiredman	very carefully
16:00	Raynes	You just need to have access to a monkey and wear and eyepatch.
16:00	Raynes	an*
16:00	hiredman	with great panache
16:00	hiredman	with style and grace
16:00	hiredman	very well
16:01	chouser	(doc intern)
16:01	clojurebot	DENIED
16:01	chouser	,(doc intern)
16:01	clojurebot	DENIED
16:01	chouser	heh
16:01	chouser	not that way, apparently
16:11	fliebel	I fixed a few things in Ring, how can I get Leiningen/Cake to use it?
16:11	lancepantz	fliebel: put it on clojars
16:12	fliebel	lancepantz: Can I just upload my own version, and still call it Ring? Sounds like a confusing action.
16:13	dnolen	fliebel: you can run lein install, no need to push to clojars.
16:13	lancepantz	yes, you just have to change the project.clj of your version to include your group id
16:13	lancepantz	then qualify the dependency with your group id
16:14	fliebel	dnolen: I'll try that first...
16:14	lancepantz	yeah, dnolen's suggestion is easier i suppose
16:16	ninjudd	fliebel: subprojects in cake will also handle that (or 'cake install' for that matter)
16:19	fliebel	ninjudd: What does subprojects do?
16:20	ninjudd	let's you specify a location for the git checkout of a project and pull the dependency from there instead of from clojars
16:21	ninjudd	fliebel: just add something like this to .cake/config
16:21	ninjudd	subproject.ring = /home/fliebel/code/ring
16:22	ninjudd	then do 'cake deps force' whenever you change the code in /home/member:fliebel/code/ring
16:22	arohner	does anyone else occasionally get NPEs when running lein deps?
16:22	fliebel	ninjudd: Useful :) i did it with lein install now
16:22	fliebel	tesing...
16:24	eshira	hi, im trying to install labrepl. i did a git clone and lein upgrade. but when I do a lein deps, i get these errors: http://gist.github.com/584880
16:24	eshira	any ideas?
16:24	bobo_	looks like the jar has gone missing
16:25	bobo_	hm
16:27	eshira	which one? i don't understand the error message.
16:27	eshira	itext?
16:27	bobo_	it cant find itext.jar in any of the maven repos it knows
16:27	bobo_	what you can do is find that jar somewhere, and use the mvn install command listed in the error
16:28	bobo_	but you shouldnt have to.
16:28	hiredman	best to complain to the authors that their dependencies aren't right
16:29	bobo_	the jar is there. can you try again eshira ?
16:29	bobo_	http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/com/lowagie/itext/1.4/
16:29	jstirrell`	if I have a few vars which i just need to increment based on what each character is in a text file, using an agent is ideal right?
16:30	dnolen	jstirrell: why not some atoms?
16:30	jstirrell`	yeah that's what I had originally, just checking
16:31	dnolen	,(let [x (atom 0)] (swap! x inc) @x)
16:31	clojurebot	1
16:31	jstirrell`	i was just thinking that the inc could be asynchronous
16:31	eshira	bobo_ i get the same thing
16:32	dnolen	jstirrell: why would it need to be async?
16:32	bobo_	eshira: i belive it worked for me. weird :-/
16:32	jstirrell`	it wouldn't need to be, but it could be? just figured it might be a minor optimization to not block since it's not really necessary
16:33	bobo_	eshira: http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/com/lowagie/itext/1.4/itext-1.4.jar does that link work for you?
16:33	eshira	yep..
16:35	eshira	whoops , i didn't include the whole error: http://gist.github.com/584905
16:37	bobo_	im clueless :-(
16:41	eshira	i really want to just kill all my clojure dependencies and libs and start over. i've tried so many different management toools that i bet i have some weird dependency issue
16:41	bobo_	eshira: if you want to remove all maven crap, its in ~/.m2/repositories
16:42	bobo_	rm -r ~/.m2/repositories is harmless unless you pay for bandwidth :-)
16:42	bobo_	repository not repositories
16:46	eshira	hah, that worked. rm -r ~/.m2/repository and then lein deps
16:46	eshira	who knows what went wrong before.. oh well
17:03	DASONIX	I am here
17:08	DASONIX	hello anyone?:
17:08	DASONIX	anyone here?:
17:08	dakrone_	yes, there are many people here
17:09	ohpauleez	DASONIX: what's up. Just looking for people or do you have a specific question
17:09	DASONIX	good. I'm testing out the clojure irc script... not sure if anything I was typing was making it into the channel :-):
17:09	ohpauleez	ah
17:09	ohpauleez	cool
17:10	DASONIX	http://nakkaya.com/2010/02/10/a-simple-clojure-irc-client/:
17:10	DASONIX	loaded it into the REPL and it just works :-):
17:11	DASONIX	speaking of which though. People at my work are excited about clojure. Any good starting points? websites?... I still don't know wth i'm doing, hehe:
17:12	amalloy	labrepl?
17:12	amalloy	or you could talk to Laujensen about conj-labs if you happen to be in europe
17:13	ohpauleez	DASONIX: amalloy is spot on. Labrepl is a good start: http://github.com/relevance/labrepl
17:13	amalloy	also, the only clojure book i've read was The Joy Of Clojure, so while i can't give a comparative analysis i thought it was quite helpful
17:13	ohpauleez	2 for 2, I love The Joy of Clojure
17:13	amalloy	and if you/they don't have a grounding in functional programming already, SICP is an excellent resource
17:14	DASONIX	Awsome, yeah i've got a subscription to safari books, I'll have to see if they have it:
17:14	ohpauleez	amalloy: it's as if you're reading an auto response from my brain
17:14	ohpauleez	haha
17:14	amalloy	TJOC is still in electronic form; not published yet
17:14	DASONIX	I had a college in course in lisp/scheme years ago... probably could use some freshening up though:
17:14	ohpauleez	it's a Manning Publishing book
17:15	ohpauleez	DASONIX: you may be fine with just using labrepl
17:15	amalloy	and SICP is free online: http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
17:15	Raynes	3 for 3, Joy is awesome.
17:16	DASONIX	We use groovy/grails at work mostly these days.. but some people are beginning to migrate towards finding similar uses for clojure:
17:17	ohpauleez	Clojure + Ring + Moustache/Compojure + Enlive/Hiccup is an amazing stack
17:17	ohpauleez	I've had great experiences rolling out solutions and deploying them
17:17	ohpauleez	I've even done a system that was half in Python (using Pylons) and half in Clojure (using Moustache), that was just a dream to deploy, scale, and maintain
17:18	ohpauleez	and it also handled financial transactions
17:19	amalloy	ohpauleez: what on...that is too many tools i don't know about. tell, tell!
17:19	ohpauleez	DASONIX: Another example of power... I wrote a fully parallel (simple) job queue in 8 total lines of clojure. It took maybe 15 minutes to write and maybe 15 minutes toying at the REPL
17:19	DASONIX	you being serious about the 'dream to deploy'?:
17:19	ohpauleez	totally
17:20	ohpauleez	with lein, it's dead simple
17:20	DASONIX	I remember in that college class, functional programming languages could have massive massive precision... hundreds and hundreds of digits :
17:21	ohpauleez	amalloy: what specifically do you want to hear about. I'd love to share any bits of knowledge
17:22	DASONIX	I guess at this point I need to learn the language better :-) :
17:22	ohpauleez	labrepl is a great way
17:22	ohpauleez	Very gentle learning curve
17:23	DASONIX	I just basically installed clojure through mac ports :
17:23	amalloy	ohpauleez: well atm i'm not really doing anything in particular. developing a back-end application with no interesting front-end. so i don't need eg compojure, but i don't know what any of the other tools are. are there any you think would be interesting to me given my setup?
17:24	ohpauleez	amalloy: I really like Moustache if I'm building more of RESTful service. Moustache is really just a routing framework, but it lets you do some interesting things
17:24	ohpauleez	it's also just a Ring middleware, and it can wrap around any other Ring Middleware
17:25	ohpauleez	Enlive is pretty nice for templating.
17:25	ohpauleez	As far as community and help goes. There's a dedicated Clojure-web google group
17:26	ohpauleez	Compojure html facility is called hiccup, which I've only played with a little, but want to really use in a pet project
17:28	ohpauleez	I've done a few different deployment structures: from just the simple run-jetty, to putting a few jetty instances behind NGINX (doing load balancing), to war deployment in tomcat
17:28	ohpauleez	I've recently started playing with aleph (asynchronous server technology for clojure)
17:29	ohpauleez	once I got my head around it all, it's been pretty nice and am writing a routing library for it
17:31	amalloy	heehee, hiccup
17:31	amalloy	thanks ohpauleez
17:32	ohpauleez	amalloy: np. Glad to share anytime
17:34	Raynes	(doc map)
17:34	clojurebot	"([f coll] [f c1 c2] [f c1 c2 c3] [f c1 c2 c3 & colls]); Returns a lazy sequence consisting of the result of applying f to the set of first items of each coll, followed by applying f to the set of second items in each coll, until any one of the colls is exhausted. Any remaining items in other colls are ignored. Function f should accept number-of-colls arguments."
17:35	_Vi	"Clojure 1.2 is released!" Why there is no refs/tags/1.2.0 in git repo?
17:36	amalloy	http://github.com/clojure/clojure has a tag 1.2.0
17:37	_Vi	amalloy, OK, found. I was using the wrong repository.
17:37	amalloy	_Vi: i had the same problem not too long ago
17:37	Raynes	Somebody should throw the new repo into the title.
17:37	Raynes	The topic*
17:38	_Vi	Was it "git://github.com/richhickey/clojure.git"?
17:38	Chousuke	yeah
17:38	Chousuke	the url just changed, the repo is still the same :)
17:40	Chousuke	the url is pretty easy to update by editing .git/config
17:40	_Vi	Chousuke, Already done. Set this as "origin" remote and previous URL as "richhickey" remote.
17:41	Chousuke	or git config remote.origin.url url-here
17:41	_Vi	git remote rm origin && git remote add origin http://github.com/clojure/clojure.git # cleaner way
17:42	Chousuke	wonder if that messes with the tracking branches :/
17:43	_Vi	The answer to the mess with "tracking branch" is just don't use tacking (no "pull", always fully specified "push"). But this discussion is for #git channel.
17:43	Chousuke	I find tracking useful
17:44	Chousuke	especially with multiple remotes.
17:44	jjido	is there a way to exit a reduce?
17:44	Chousuke	though I guess you could always use remote/foobranch when you need the remote
17:44	Chousuke	jjido: throw an exception :P
17:45	jjido	Chousuke: is that costly?
17:45	Chousuke	probably
17:45	Chousuke	unless you preallocate the exception
17:45	jjido	I will still do it for now
17:45	Chousuke	but a better way is probably not to use reduce or write a version that allows short-circuiting somehow
17:47	ryszard_	hello
17:47	ryszard_	I am trying to install Leiningen
17:47	ryszard_	I followed the instructions in the readme
17:47	amalloy	ryszard_: on what OS?
17:47	ryszard_	but I am getting this:
17:47	ryszard_	and I am getting this
17:47	ryszard_	http://gist.github.com/585008
17:48	ryszard_	(MacOs X)
17:49	amalloy	ryszard_: i think leiningen relies heavily on bash. i imagine it's clever enough to switch shells for you, bu there could be some issues getting the env vars set up right
17:50	ryszard_	amalloy: I guess that the script itself shouldn't be affected... It uses /bin/sh
17:50	ryszard_	amalloy: however, I suspect this might be a CLASSPATH issue
17:52	sivajag_	ryszard_: did you do lein self-install?
17:53	sivajag_	this task will install all needed jars
17:53	amalloy	ryszard_: yes, self-install is an important step that's easy to forget
17:53	ryszard_	sivajag_: yes, I tried it
17:53	ryszard_	it gives me the exact same error
17:53	amalloy	you can edit `which lein` and add in something to make it echo the classpath, by changing JAVA_CMD from java to echo
17:54	amalloy	if you can see the actual command line it's using that might give you a clue
17:56	sivajag_	ryszard_: self-install is the task that will download lein jars to your local maven
17:56	ryszard_	sivajag_, amalloy: the CLASSPATH is ::src/:
17:56	sivajag_	the error u r seeing is that lein-standalone jar is missiing
17:56	sivajag_	can u paste the error u get when u do lein self-install
17:57	ryszard_	sivajag_: lein self-install finishes w/o an error
17:57	sivajag_	also can u check whether you have lein jars under
17:57	sivajag_	$HOME/.m2/repository/leiningen/leiningen/
17:58	ryszard_	sivajag_: however, when I try to run lein after it, the error from the gist occurs
17:58	ryszard_	sivajag_: There's /Users/ryszard/.m2/repository/leiningen/leiningen/1.2.0/leiningen-1.2.0-standalone.jar
17:59	sivajag_	what command are you trying to do?
17:59	sivajag_	lein new?
17:59	ryszard_	yes
18:00	sivajag_	in error message
18:00	sivajag_	it looks like u types "lein"
18:00	sivajag_	can you type "lein new"
18:01	ryszard_	sivajag_: same error :(
18:01	sivajag_	lein version
18:01	sivajag_	mm
18:01	sivajag_	can u type "lein version"
18:01	_Vi	Is (read ...) secure? Can we feed data that anonymous send to socket into it?
18:02	scottj	hmm. easy way to pull out the <body> of a string that's html but might be "<p>foo</p>" or "<doctype...head..body..." (e.g. html email). enlive doesn't appear to wrap html in html/body if it's not there
18:02	scottj	_Vi: I don't think so
18:03	_Vi	scottj, What can it do? (Input length is limited)
18:03	sivajag_	ryszard_: can u type the output for "lein version"
18:04	_Vi	How to deserialize data from insecure source in oneliner?
18:05	ryszard_	sivajag_: same error. I am pretty convinced my classpath is wrong and the stuff installed by maven is not seen by my java.
18:07	scottj	_Vi: (read-string "#=(println \"here's the trick\")")
18:08	_Vi	Reader macros? Is there way to force reader into some basic always-the-same syntax (where data expected to come, not code).
18:08	sivajag_	ryszard_: the thing lein should load lein jars and clojure jars from maven repo
18:08	scottj	_Vi, I think the bot here has something like that written, it may be a library somewhere
18:09	sivajag_	ryszard_: so I am not sure how the classpath could be bad if u r running using lein
18:09	ohpauleez	Raynes: Can you comment on ^?
18:09	sivajag_	also I am not sure why it is trying to download lein when u just type "lein"
18:09	ohpauleez	ie: on _Vi's request
18:10	Raynes	There is a sandbox library called clj-sandbox that powers sexpbot's Clojure evaluation.
18:10	_Vi	scottj, So there is no easy way to get some structured data from user without opening vulnerability, right?
18:10	Raynes	$google clj-sandbox
18:10	sexpbot	First out of 183 results is: Licenser's clj-sandbox at master - GitHub
18:10	sexpbot	http://github.com/Licenser/clj-sandbox
18:11	sivajag_	anyone has suggestion for a good xmpp library?
18:11	ohpauleez	_Vi: ^
18:11	Raynes	It isn't perfect, but does the trick.
18:11	ohpauleez	Thanks Raynes
18:11	_Vi	Raynes, "isn
18:12	Raynes	(binding [read-eval false] (read-string "#=(println \"here's the trick\")"))
18:12	Raynes	scottj: ^
18:12	_Vi	't perfect" means "there can be vulnerabilities" or slow or something else safe?
18:13	Raynes	_Vi: It's generally pretty safe. When vulnerabilities are found, they're fixed. There haven't been any found in a while though.
18:13	Raynes	You can take advantage of the JVM's own sandbox, and construct a sandbox that is as safe or as vulnerable as you want it to be.
18:14	_Vi	At least if there are ways to inject code when reading using "[read-eval false]" then they are considered Bugs, not Features and got fixed as security issues, right?
18:24	SirNick	If a function's body defines a macro and that function is not called until runtime, can the macro still be expanded at runtime even though it's after compilation? Or does this cause more compilation?
18:24	chouser	macros aren't expanded at runtime unless you call eval or something
18:25	amalloy	however you declare a macro, it is accessible at (and only at) compile time, in whatever scope the declaration has
18:26	amalloy	what use case did you have in mind?
18:27	SirNick	I didn't really have a usecase exactly, I was just wondering if there was any reason that would cause on the fly compilation during runtime in some way.
18:27	amalloy	(eval) is pretty much it
18:28	SirNick	Awesome, thanks
18:28	_Vi	"(defn foo [x] (foo x))" ; Why doesn't it warn that "(recur x)" should be used?
18:28	amalloy	because maybe recur x shouldn't be used....?
18:29	_Vi	amalloy, I don't mean this particular function, I mean any function calling itself in a tail position.
18:29	amalloy	especially for lazy sequences, you can't use recur
18:30	amalloy	,(source iterate)
18:30	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: source in this context
18:30	thunk	,(clojure.repl/source iterate)
18:30	amalloy	,(clojure.repl/source iterate)
18:31	clojurebot	Source not found
18:31	clojurebot	Source not found
18:31	amalloy	clojurebut: lame
18:31	amalloy	man, i can't even spell clojurebot. guess i'm the lame one
18:32	amalloy	-> (clojure.repl/source iterate)
18:32	sexpbot	java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: clojure.repl
18:34	kennedywm	Anyone using clojure-clr?
18:35	hiredman	~def iterate
18:42	_Vi	I.e. is "if we can change tail call to 'recur' and it gives no compiler error then we should change it to 'recur'" holds?
18:42	_Vi	*Does "..." hold?
18:48	Raynes	-> (doc defn)
18:48	sexpbot	⟹ "Macro ([name doc-string? attr-map? [params] body] [name doc-string? attr-map? ([params] body) + attr-map?]); Same as (def name (fn [params* ] exprs)) or (def name (fn ([params ] exprs*)+)) with a... http://gist.github.com/585094
18:48	Raynes	There we go. Pretty doc formatting.
18:49	Raynes	And I totally didn't steal most of that formatting from clojurebot.
18:49	curiouscat	test
18:53	amalloy	_Vi: this comes up fairly often. i'm newish to the clojure community, and what you say makes sense to me. however, i'm pretty sure this has been discussed and declined lots of times
18:54	amalloy	_Vi: one of the issues is that if the compiler magically converts naive recursion into TC for you, you run the risk of writing code you think is TC but actually is blowing up the stack. the manual (recur) vs (myfunc) makes you think about the difference, and notice when you do it wrong (ie recur illegally)
18:56	jjido	amalloy: what I miss is recur for an enclosing function
18:56	technomancy	what I want is for :\| to be an alias for recur
18:56	technomancy	for the musicians in the audience
18:57	amalloy	jjido: we're waiting for the JVM to implement general tail-call optimization so we can just use theirs, aren't we?
18:57	jjido	(fn [x] #(recur (dec x)))
18:57	technomancy	also we need to raise funds to hire John Rose as a hacker-errant so he can work on awesome JVM features like TCO instead of what his oracle overlords tell him to do.
19:00	hiredman	jjido: not possible given the way functions are implemented and the limitations of the jvm
19:00	hiredman	checkout trampoline
19:00	jjido	hiredman: yeah thanks
19:01	_Vi	amalloy, ... and people that have got used to real TCO are usually experienced and thinking (Lisps, Schemes, dignified and complicated...) and will cope with the difference, right?
19:01	jjido	what can I do with a quoted value?
19:02	hiredman	clojure totally needs generally TCO, I would use that all the time
19:02	jjido	,(doc unquote)
19:02	clojurebot	"; "
19:02	hiredman	jjido: a quoted value is the value
19:02	_Vi	hiredman, Means it is unlikely they will do "novice mistakes" of forgetting about "(recur)".
19:03	hiredman	_Vi: recur is there because the general case is currently not possible without using a different call stack which would run counter to clojure's host integration goals
19:04	_Vi	/* Imagining Clojure as some beast which has lost it's tail in some accident */
19:04	ohpauleez	chouser: ping
19:05	_Vi	hiredman, I mean the necessity of doing compiler warning for non-using of "recur".
19:05	hiredman	because it's not always a mistake
19:05	hiredman	so warning is ridiculous
19:06	hiredman	if you want to calla the 3 arg body from the 2 arg body of a multifn, you would get a warning
19:06	hiredman	same for multimethods, etc
19:07	ohpauleez	Has anyone else documented 'show' being broken in 1.3? http://gist.github.com/585121
19:07	_Vi	hiredman, Where is it ridiculous? Can you give an example? Why deliberately non-use of "recur"?
19:07	jjido	hiredman: if the quoted value is '(1 2 3), I can use it as a list. If it is '(fn [] 42), I cannot execute it?
19:09	hiredman	that is also a list
19:09	mrBliss	jjido: use (eval '(fn [] 42))
19:09	hiredman	_Vi: I just gave 2
19:09	hiredman	mrBliss: that won't execute it, that will turn the list into a function object
19:10	jjido	mrBliss: thanks!
19:10	jjido	hiredman: then it is just one step away from being executed...
19:12	_Vi	hiredman, Don't see them (having looked at answers about multimethods and multifn and this is not that). It should where we technically can put "recur" instead of some function call, and "recur" will use that function, but we don't need it.
19:13	hiredman	_Vi: well, I have answered your question, if you don't understand the answer the deficiency lies with you
19:13	_Vi	hiredman, (Still thinking that if we can change some call to "recur" that points to the same thing then we should do it)
19:31	jjido	can I use eval to do contextual scoping?
19:38	eshira	I'm using lein. I :dev-include org.clojars.brandonw/lein-nailgun "1.0.0" and then lein deps. Every other "lein deps" works w/o error, but the other ones end up with: http://gist.github.com/585147 . any ideas?
19:42	eshira	and so naturally "lein nailgun" runs but then running vim, I get this: http://gist.github.com/585151
19:50	lazy1	eshira: If you find the solution, let me know :)
19:52	eshira	hah, will do. anyone had success w/ lein-nailgun here
20:12	jjido	can a struct refer to itself? (Java this)
20:23	hiredman	jjido: how could that be possible?
20:23	technomancy	eshira: I've seen that bug elsewhere. very rare, but it's consistently reproducible
20:24	technomancy	eshira: http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen/issues#issue/105
20:24	technomancy	possibly an obscure maven bug?
20:25	technomancy	I don't have anything helpful to say except you're not the first to run into this.
20:25	jjido	hiredman: (let [x (struct mystruct :myself this)] (:myself x))
20:29	_Vi	VimClojure instruction. "\sr (should open a new window)". How to press '\sr'? Is it literal \, S and R?
20:34	eshira	technomancy: thanks, that helps. it prevents me from wasting more time on it ;)
20:35	eshira	_Vi: yes, it is "\", or whatever your vim command key is
20:35	_Vi	eshira, Probably I need to install "Gorilla" to make it work.
20:36	eshira	_Vi good luck. I've gotten vimclojure to work once a long time ago, but then I upgraded some things and now my set up is broken
20:36	_Vi	Isn't there a comprehensive guide to install VimClojure (with all deps)?
20:36	eshira	also, if you're using the latest vimclojure (2.2.0-SNAPSHOT), the instructions found at http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html is outdated I'm pretty sure
20:37	_Vi	"You need a Ruby enabled Vim" Ruby? Dependency hell...
20:37	eshira	I wished. If I ever get the perfect vim + clojure setup then I will write it up, but so far it's just been hours of going in circles
20:38	lancepantz	i just gave up and switched to emacs
20:38	lancepantz	would recommend the same to anyone
20:39	lancepantz	emacs has viper mode- modal, with vim chords- if you want to ease into it
20:39	_Vi	lancepantz, (From emacs I remember only "Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C". I've tried to learn it three-four times, unsuccessfully)
20:39	lancepantz	but even a fully functional vimclojure doesn't compare to slime
20:40	_Vi	lancepantz, Is emacs/slime considered the primary IDE for Clojure?
20:40	lancepantz	by far
20:41	eshira	yeah i might have to do that, at least until vimclojure catches up (which I'm sure it will). but i love vim so much. it will be hard
20:41	lancepantz	62%, http://cemerick.com/2010/06/07/results-from-the-state-of-clojure-summer-2010-survey/
20:42	lancepantz	ninjudd and myself work on a project called cake, that is ripe for non-emacs integration, it has a persistent vm that's a bit cleaner than nailgun
20:42	lancepantz	some people have been integrating it with textmate
20:43	lancepantz	if one was to take the time, you could get a pretty killer vim integration, but i'm probably not going to be that one :)
20:44	Raynes	lancepantz: Me either. Not until someone writes a Clojure to VimScript compiler.
20:45	lancepantz	http://chasemerick.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/5.png?w=500&h=300
20:45	Raynes	That's a handsome 404 page.
20:47	lancepantz	yeah, ninjudd just told me that, must be in my browser cache
21:27	joegallo	I'm writing a "cleanup my use declarations" function in elisp, http://gist.github.com/585230, does anyone have any advice?
21:27	joegallo	I don't really have tons of elisp experience.
21:27	bhenry	here's my advice http://github.com/technomancy/durendal
21:28	joegallo	Blast!
21:29	bhenry	although ns-cleanup is still on the to-do. perhaps you could use it as a starting point.
21:30	rickmode	is there a way to do something like instance? or isa? with a protocol?
21:31	rickmode	nevemind... just saw extends?
21:36	chouser_	rickmode: see also satisfies?
21:40	rickmode	chouser_: ya ... that's the one that seems to work... thanks
22:04	lazy1	I there a library like hiccup to generate XML?
22:08	Raynes	lazy1: There is some stuff in contrib: http://clojure.github.com/clojure-contrib/prxml-api.html
22:08	Raynes	Not sure if there is anything hiccup-like.
22:08	Raynes	Oh, I guess it is.
22:08	Raynes	Neat.
22:19	lazy1	Thanks
22:21	lazy1	This prints to out, can you remind me what should I bind out go get a string?
22:27	chouser	just use (with-out-str ....)
22:28	lazy1	Great
23:13	brehaut	is there a clojure feed generation library (RSS, Atom) anywhere?
23:22	brehaut	in answer to my own question: laujensen's bestinclass.dk has a simple solution in templates.clj
23:53	eshira	lazy1: i got vimclojure working: http://groups.google.com/group/vimclojure/browse_thread/thread/69abeea9f57cb73b/9360432c165c2beb?lnk=gst
23:58	technomancy	joegallo: wow... the timing on that is crazy
23:59	technomancy	joegallo: I didn't get it to sort long lines that had to wrap though; that would be a neat trick. does yours do that?