#clojure – 2010-09-02

2010-09-02

00:03	sleepynate	ugh.. classpaths. anyone use vimclojure? i'm trying to get the AOT compile of the pretty print thing in clojure-contrib
00:17	technomancy	sleepynate: if you can at all avoid it, don't compile contrib yourself
00:17	sleepynate	technomancy: you're telling me :D
00:17	sleepynate	i always forget exactly how i get it working
00:17	sleepynate	then i need to set it up again
00:17	technomancy	why do you need to set it up?
00:18	sleepynate	http://kotka.de/projects/clojure/vimclojure.html <---
00:18	sleepynate	but for now i just pipe it to a jline repl in tmux
00:18	technomancy	sleepynate: do you know about http://build.clojure.org/releases ?
00:19	sleepynate	technomancy: i don't.. but that doesn't have this pretty printer mod, does it?
00:19	technomancy	oh, you're trying to add your own modifications to contrib
00:19	technomancy	gotcha; that is one of the few legitimate reasons to build it yourself
00:20	technomancy	most people complaining about contrib build issues have no good reason to be trying in the first place.
00:20	sleepynate	Could not locate clojure/contrib/pprint__init.class or clojure/contrib/pprint.clj on classpath:
00:20	sleepynate	this is the actual one i'm getting
00:20	sleepynate	and i know i've fixed it before :)
00:21	sleepynate	ahh well.. i'll stick with my tmux pipe for now
00:21	sleepynate	just nice to get slime-like functionality in a coughdecentcough editor
00:21	technomancy	tmux pwns
00:23	sleepynate	ya
00:24	sleepynate	technomancy: well, if you use vim, check out tslime :)
00:24	sleepynate	it ferries stuff back and forth to tmux
00:24	sleepynate	it's just not form/s-expression aware
00:26	technomancy	thanks but no thanks.
00:42	Bahman	Hi all!
01:02	replaca	sleepynate: what are your plans for pprint, out of curiousity
01:02	replaca	?
01:05	sleepynate	replaca: none specifically, just vimclojure wants the one from contrib compiled
01:06	replaca	sleepynate: ahh, that's probably cause vimclojure is using an old version of contrib
01:06	replaca	sleepynate: pprint used to require compilation in 1.1
01:06	sleepynate	oh poop
01:07	sleepynate	i'm using 1.2 snap
01:07	replaca	so maybe you just want to grab a 1.1 contrib for vimclojure
01:07	sleepynate	git pull didn't yield anything new
01:07	sleepynate	fair enough
01:07	replaca	in what sense? There were a bunch of changes.
01:08	sleepynate	replaca: no no, no changes since i last compiled :D
01:08	replaca	but in 1.2, they should really be using clojure.pprint which is the new version
01:08	sleepynate	sure
01:08	replaca	not too many changes from c.c.pprint, though
01:09	sleepynate	maybe later i'll look at the build script
01:09	sleepynate	fix it for him :D
01:10	sleepynate	but that makes sense why i could before but not now
01:10	replaca	cool. good luck!
01:11	sleepynate	heh. thanks? :)
01:12	sleepynate	hmm, what's the clojure equiv of "all" in haskell
01:12	sleepynate	true if all in collection meet conditions of predicate
01:13	tomoj	every?
01:13	clojurebot	everybody looks good in a sheinhardt
01:13	sleepynate	(all? (zero? %) (0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 ))
01:13	tomoj	,(every? zero? [0 0 0])
01:13	clojurebot	true
01:13	sleepynate	tomoj: thanks
01:13	sleepynate	tomoj: i knew it was something not far off :D
01:19	rdeshpande	hi all
01:23	rubydiamond	technomancy: hey
01:23	rubydiamond	what mode do you use for rhtml ?
01:23	rubydiamond	rdeshpande: hey
01:24	rubydiamond	which city ?
02:56	LauJensen	Good morning all
02:59	Raynes	Morning.
03:03	LauJensen	Raynes: What are you working on these days?
03:22	Raynes	LauJensen: Mostly sexpbot lately. That and Irclj.
03:22	LauJensen	Alright
03:22	Raynes	I have a little toy web development project that I've been neglecting, but plan to get back to soon.
03:23	LauJensen	Whats it about?
03:23	Raynes	Pastebin-like thingy.
03:24	Raynes	It's mostly a learning thing.
03:24	LauJensen	Ah so you're doing some syntax highlighting? :)
03:24	Raynes	Try-clojure isn't really something I can cut my teeth on. I want to make it better, but I need experience for that.
03:25	LauJensen	Pretty hefty project for your first web app
03:25	Raynes	Actually, I've been considering that. I planned on highlighting with syntaxhighlighter, at least at first.
03:25	LauJensen	But it turned out okay
03:25	Raynes	Thanks to you.
03:25	Raynes	:p
03:25	LauJensen	ha
04:21	jave	I have a little compojure project, that starts a jetty server in the background. when I reload the ns, the jetty is still running so it cant get the port and I get errors
04:22	jave	is there some idiomatic way of handling this? I thought maybe using a global singleton
04:22	bobo_	jave: defonce instead of def i think solves that.
04:22	jave	ah
04:22	bobo_	on the jetty calling method
04:24	Raynes	jave: Yeah, defonce, or just put the code to run the jetty server in another ns.
04:24	LauJensen	usually it makes sense to have core/main start the server, and server/start-server to actually boot it
04:25	jave	hmm ok
04:25	jave	something like this should work at leas then? (defonce dummyserver (future (run-jetty (var unibet-dispatch-routes) {:port 9090})))
04:28	Raynes	-> (letfn [(U [f] (f f))] ((U (fn [f] (fn [n] (if (= 0 n) 1 (* n ((f f) (- n 1))))))) 5))
04:28	sexpbot	=> 120
04:28	Raynes	_fogus_: ^ Lovely monstrosity you got htere.
04:28	Raynes	there*
04:28	esj	you can also use atoms: http://github.com/swannodette/enlive-tutorial/blob/master/src/tutorial/template1.clj
04:28	Raynes	Makes me want a roast beef sandwich.
04:32	esj	Raynes: where on earth did you excavate that ?
04:32	Raynes	esj: Twitter. It's fogus'
04:32	esj	you been messing with necromancy again ?
04:32	esj	oh, then its correct ;)
04:34	esj	although his partner is crime did try to destroy the universe yesterday...
04:41	raek	jave: don't forget to specify the handler function as "#'handler" and not "handler"
04:42	raek	the latter takes the value that the #'handler var had at that time, and remembers that
04:42	raek	the former lets the server remember the var itself
04:43	LauJensen	ie. so you can redefine it at runtime
04:43	raek	(vars when used as functions do a deref on themselves and call that)
04:44	jave	(defonce dummyserver (future (run-jetty (var #'unibet-dispatch-routes) {:port 9090}))) ?
04:45	jave	hmm or not even the (var .. )
04:45	raek	exactly.
04:45	raek	oh
04:45	raek	#'foo = (var foo)
04:46	raek	,(var (var inc))
04:46	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: clojure.lang.PersistentList cannot be cast to clojure.lang.Symbol
05:00	jave	whats the idiomatic way of writing a config file? a java properties file? a separate ~/app.clj file outside the uberjar?
05:01	Raynes	I usually do something similar to the latter. Most of my configuration is just a map in a file that I read-string in the application.
05:01	kumarshantanu	jave: perhaps an external appconfig.clj and do an eval to get the properties?
05:01	LauJensen	jave: That comes up a lot, and it usually comes down to whatever makes the most sense for your ready
05:01	bobo_	i think lein does it nice?
05:01	LauJensen	s/ready/reader/
05:01	sexpbot	jave: That comes up a lot, and it usually comes down to whatever makes the most sense for your reader
05:02	LauJensen	Raynes: That function should append the (name) of the one who said it for quicker reads
05:03	Raynes	LauJensen: Like <LauJensen> message here?
05:03	Raynes	That makes sense.
05:03	LauJensen	yea
05:03	Raynes	Good idea.
05:04	fliebel	do you guys keep logs of this channel somewhere?
05:04	LauJensen	Thanks
05:04	Raynes	fliebel: Yessir.
05:04	LauJensen	clojure-log.n01se.net
05:04	LauJensen	clojurebot: where are the logs?
05:04	clojurebot	make a note of http://scienceblogs.com/goodmath/2006/11/the_c_is_efficient_language_fa.php it is yet another article about picking c or c++ for performance being naive
05:04	LauJensen	clojurebot: where is the log?
05:04	clojurebot	reverse psychology is even less rigorous than forward psychology
05:05	LauJensen	clojurebot: the log is at http://clojure-log.n01se.net
05:05	clojurebot	Alles klar
05:05	LauJensen	clojurebot: where is the log?
05:05	clojurebot	logs is http://clojure-log.n01se.net/
05:05	LauJensen	good boy
05:06	Raynes	I really need to set up my bouncer. ._.
05:07	Raynes	$learn clojure-logs clojure-log.n01se.net
05:07	sexpbot	My memory is more powerful than M-x butterfly. I wont forget it.
05:26	kumarshantanu	rql looks interesting -- http://github.com/MrHus/rql
05:32	Chousuke	I don't like the bang functions.
05:32	Chousuke	they seem to be doing nothing more than (alter theref non-bang-fn args)
05:32	Chousuke	(in a dosync)
05:41	LauJensen	Chousuke: which bang fns are you refering to ?
05:42	Chousuke	the ones in the rql library
05:42	LauJensen	oh ok- I thought you wanted swap! reset! etc to be removed :)
05:43	Chousuke	heh, nah. those have no trivial replacement :P
05:43	Chousuke	I just think hiding alters and especially dosyncs in trivial functions is unidiomatic in Clojure :P
05:43	LauJensen	no, but Im sure Rich would remove them right away if you werent comfortable with them :)
05:44	Chousuke	yes, I'm sure :P
05:48	raek	bangs for functions that are safe to use in transactions?
05:51	Chousuke	yeah, that too :P
05:51	LauJensen	Has anybody had this issue with Miglayout? http://migcalendar.com/miglayout/cheatsheet.html states that "gab 5px" is a valid component contraint, yet adding it to a single components gives me a Illegal Constraint: 'gab 5px' Unknown keyword called from 0: net.miginfocom.layout.ConstraintParser.parseComponentConstraint(Unknown Source)
05:51	LauJensen
05:52	Chousuke	gab? not gap?
05:52	tomoj	seems a bit weird that the bang fns are called "persistent variants"
05:54	LauJensen	Chousuke: Its a pleasure to have you on board, thanks for catching my typo :p
05:54	Chousuke	LauJensen: you need more coffee :P
05:54	LauJensen	Haha!
05:54	LauJensen	cruel...
05:55	fliebel	LauJensen: Coffee diet?
05:55	LauJensen	http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2010/08/developer-productivity--the-red-pill.html
05:55	LauJensen	(for odd reasons, my most popular blogpost yet)
05:56	LauJensen	Even beating my Tribute to Steve Ballmer I think :)
05:56	fliebel	(not so odd at all…)
05:56	LauJensen	Well, I wrote it because I had promised to do so, I was feeling more inspired to blog about Clojure, so it felt like 'work' doing it, where many of the others have been pure fun
05:57	raek	Clojure is all about pure fn for me ;)
05:59	fliebel	LauJensen: You read those articles about digg mafia and vote rings? It's all about getting the first 5 votes fast, which happened to you by accident by the kind people of #clojure. I'm sure that if you manage to get some other posts on the frontpage of HN, they'll be just as popular.
06:00	LauJensen	fliebel: Naah I haven't heard about them
06:00	LauJensen	But yea, it was definitely lifted by #clojure
06:01	fliebel	raek: defnitely!
06:09	jave	load-file doesnt seem to be very good in a program, why is that?
06:09	jave	I wanted to load and eval a config file
06:13	Raynes	(doc load-file)
06:13	clojurebot	"([name]); Sequentially read and evaluate the set of forms contained in the file."
06:13	Raynes	It seems to do the trick.
06:14	LauJensen	As long as a hacker cant get to the config file, otherwise you're in a lot of trouble
06:15	Raynes	LauJensen: Couldn't a hacker just as easily modify the code of the Clojure application itself, assuming it isn't AOT compiled?
06:16	LauJensen	'assume'
06:17	Raynes	People rarely AOT compile their code. At least, I thought.
06:17	Raynes	If you say 'thought', I'll come to Denmark and hunt you down.
06:17	LauJensen	'hunt'
06:17	Raynes	:-)
06:17	LauJensen	On some projects, its not an option to deploy with the source
06:18	Raynes	Fair enough.
06:18	esj	and some java interop requires AOT
06:18	Raynes	It still isn't that common.
06:18	esj	yeh - izza pain in the bum
06:19	Raynes	Most of what I've seen AOT used for in open source projects is for a main class for executable jars.
06:19	Raynes	There is a ticket to add a parameter to clojure.main to do something similar without AOT.
06:20	Raynes	I was hoping it would get into 1.2.
06:20	LauJensen	Raynes: You can do it yourself with Cake
06:21	Raynes	I'm not surprised.
06:21	Raynes	Cake is pretty impressive.
06:22	LauJensen	Yes Im thorougly impressed by it myself
06:22	LauJensen	And I dont even think I can spell that
06:22	Raynes	throughly?
06:23	LauJensen	yea
06:23	esj	i missed cake - that looks truly nice
06:23	Raynes	I've been using it for a while.
06:23	LauJensen	esj: The way it handles task dependencies is übercool
06:23	Raynes	I was actually supposed to work on lowering memory usage in that thing a bit tonight. I forgot about it. ._.
06:23	LauJensen	So you can extend 'compile', 'uberjar' etc
06:23	LauJensen	Raynes: Just buy more RAM
06:24	esj	that's really nice.
06:24	Raynes	LauJensen: RAM is costly on VPSs.
06:24	esj	I'm currently committed to learning Maven properly. One build tool at a time :)
06:24	Raynes	They're going to switch to Ivy in cake soon.
06:25	LauJensen	esj: After that you should really learn QBasic as well, that another outdated technology
06:25	LauJensen	And then maybe... maybe try Pascal, the DOS version
06:25	LauJensen	Thats awesome too
06:25	esj	LauJensen: this is a fair point
06:25	Raynes	LauJensen: What about FORTRAN?
06:25	LauJensen	True, you cant learn Maven and not Fortran
06:25	bobo_	except, maven isnt awesome
06:26	esj	maven is nice because it has an ecosystem
06:26	bobo_	indeed
06:26	esj	so i can get a lot done with it chop-chop
06:26	LauJensen	esj: like a sweathy shoe after a good work-out, it also has a little ecosystem :)
06:26	esj	yummmmmmmm
06:30	noidi	there must be something wrong with me, but I actually quite like maven :)
06:31	noidi	I bit the bullet and tried it after reading this article, and after the steep learning curve it's been just fine http://muckandbrass.com/web/display/~cemerick/2010/03/25/Why+using+Maven+for+Clojure+builds+is+a+no-brainer
06:31	esj	noidi: yup, me too.
06:32	LauJensen	Hmm. nice, so you actually get over the 10k lines of XML ?
06:32	noidi	hehe, it's not that bad with nxml-mode :)
06:32	bobo_	my question is just why?
06:32	bobo_	leinigen is so easy, so much less text
06:33	bobo_	one good thing with maven is, that you can open the project in netbeans/eclipse/idea, but thats about it
06:33	LauJensen	bobo_: Dont compare with lein, compare with cake
06:34	fliebel	cake?
06:34	clojurebot	cheesecake is delicious.
06:34	LauJensen	I would say Maven would have been my choice for a cross platform build if Cake wasn't around
06:34	bobo_	oh, cake can cross platform?
06:34	LauJensen	fliebel: http://github.com/ninjudd/cake
06:34	LauJensen	bobo_: yea, amazingly simple
06:34	bobo_	i need to stop working, so i have time for everything
06:34	esj	currently I use it because it plays nicely with my CI, repositories etc
06:34	LauJensen	And I have one customer, who requires the build to run on a Windows server, so cake saved me from the XML
06:34	LauJensen	http://github.com/ninjudd/cake/wiki/Cake-on-Windows
06:35	noidi	well, maven has plugins for pretty much everything
06:35	LauJensen	noidi: cake lets me do tasks in clojure, so I dont need your plugins
06:35	esj	(by repositories, I mean a local binary artifact repo)
06:36	LauJensen	esj: cake is no different, you can also install local artifacts
06:36	noidi	maven vs make-like systems (where you write your own tasks) is like word vs latex
06:36	LauJensen	with a single command, and you dont need to spend 5 minutes writing up the xml documentation afterwards
06:36	LauJensen	noidi: please dont bring MS products into this
06:37	esj	LauJensen: I phrased that poorly, twice. Up late last night. I'm trying to say, Nexus.
06:37	LauJensen	Anyway, if you guys like your XML and you can actually find people who are happy to see you sit there and write out <start></stop> tags all day, Im happy for you, but if you get fed up, try Cake :)
06:38	fliebel	LauJensen: So Cake is like Nailgun for Leiningen? (they should add that to the thisisforthat site)
06:38	esj	LauJensen: I absolutely will, of course. But Maven does currently scratch my itches.
06:38	LauJensen	fliebel: thats part of it
06:39	LauJensen	Another big part is the gem based install, another is their unique way to handle tasks and dependencies
06:39	noidi	I pretty much only modify my pom.xml manually when adding a new dependency
06:39	LauJensen	But ready the github page, they did a good job of documenting
06:39	noidi	and even then I copy and paste the <dependency> tag from a web page, so it's really not painful
06:39	LauJensen	-y
06:39	fliebel	LauJensen: Strange thing to write a Clojure package manager in Ruby...
06:40	LauJensen	fliebel: Not strange at all. Its an expressive cross platform language
06:40	LauJensen	Makes a lot more sense than bash
06:40	fliebel	LauJensen: How about another nice language called Clojure? :P
06:40	LauJensen	fliebel: Most of it is written in Clojure
06:41	LauJensen	its the bootstrap and install stuff thats in ruby
06:41	noidi	I was just about to say that dismissing Maven for XML is like dismissing Cake for being written in Ruby ;D
06:41	LauJensen	the same stuff thats in bash for lein
06:41	fliebel	LauJensen: Make sense… Ruby is strange though, tried to learn it yesterday…
06:41	LauJensen	strange? its like python just with more syntax :)
06:42	LauJensen	python is like PHP, just with less dollar signs :)
06:42	LauJensen	PHP is like a ... a free ride when you're already late? :)
06:42	noidi	the biggest difference between Python and Ruby are the cultures
06:42	fliebel	Clojure is like Ruby, only with more parens, and IMMUTABLE stuff!
06:42	noidi	I prefer Ruby as a language but Python as a development cultrue :)
06:44	fliebel	Actually, Clojure is the anti-Ruby, is Armageddon nearby?
06:44	LauJensen	Ive always found Python to be the most clean language of the two
06:44	mrBliss	Clojure is also a ****load faster than Ruby and Python
06:44	LauJensen	mrBliss: Naah, I dont think we can keep up with Python
06:44	noidi	mrBliss, for long running tasks yes, but for things like the cake launcher, the startup cost of the JVM is prohibitive
06:45	LauJensen	noidi: not even for long running things, Python is blazing
06:45	fliebel	Nailgun?
06:45	LauJensen	and mutating is a lot faster than path copying
06:45	mrBliss	show me some benchmarks
06:45	LauJensen	http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2009/12/clojure-vs-ruby-scala-transient-newsgroups.html
06:45	noidi	well, start a hello world in python and clojure
06:45	noidi	:)
06:45	mrBliss	but without the startup time
06:45	LauJensen	At the bottom, someone contributed a very nice Python solution, which blew all the other languages out of the water
06:46	LauJensen	I saw several attempts in F#, but ultimately nobody could produce a working program
06:46	noidi	+ Ruby and Python have loads of modules to make shell scripting type of stuff easy
06:47	noidi	I think Ruby is just about the best choice for writing the launcher for a cross-platform Clojure build tool
06:47	AWizzArd	It seems python and ruby are supported natively on Android.
06:47	LauJensen	noidi: agreed
06:48	noidi	it would be a with Python, but the default Ruby install comes with Gems and Python's Setuptools need a separate install :)
06:48	AWizzArd	While Clojure can be introduced through some other ways. But it will run without jit and might not be very fast. Hopefully this will change soon.
06:48	noidi	*would be a tie
06:49	noidi	cemerick, I just linked to your article about building Clojure projects with Maven. Thanks for writing it, I've been a happy Maven user since reading it 5 months ago :)
06:50	cemerick	glad to hear it :-)
06:50	mrBliss	I'm not talking about the best choice for a build tool, but Clojure is faster than Python.
06:50	mrBliss	http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/fastest-programming-language.php?java=on&python=on&python3=on&yarv=on&calc=chart
06:50	mrBliss	You could say clojure is 1.5~3x slower than Java
06:51	noidi	I think the more relevant question is "is this language fast enough for my use case"
06:51	noidi	and 90% of the time any language will do
06:52	mrBliss	noidi: you're right
06:52	cemerick	alioth numbers are here, so all our questions are answered :-P
06:53	mrBliss	it's only a benchmark, but still ;-)
06:55	LauJensen	mrBliss: Why do you keep saying that Clojure is faster than Python?
06:56	AWizzArd	LauJensen: he is talking about specific implementations of those langs, not the langs themselves
06:56	LauJensen	Ok
06:56	mrBliss	Is Python interpreted?
06:57	noidi	yes
06:57	mrBliss	so it is slower than Clojure IMO
06:57	mrBliss	(not talking about the aptness as a build tool)
06:57	esj	no, as LauJensen points out, things like mutabality trump that.
06:58	LauJensen	hehe
06:58	AWizzArd	Tho there are trillions of mutable containers for Clojure too.
06:58	esj	LauJensen: see, sometimes I can agree with you :)
06:59	LauJensen	esj: I know - Every time you're right about something :)
06:59	esj	took the keystrokes right off my fingertips....
06:59	fliebel	So, my super reliable benchmakr says Python is faster than clojure with printing hello world 1000000 times.
06:59	mrBliss	btw Python has the GIL
06:59	mrBliss	fliebel: that's true
06:59	LauJensen	mrBliss: 1) Its being fixed rapidly, 2) You dont have to use it
07:00	fliebel	Python: 4.7540531158447266 Clojure: 32294.985
07:00	fliebel	Why this huge difference?
07:00	mrBliss	JVM startup time
07:00	AWizzArd	fliebel: depends on how you measured
07:01	fliebel	Python: timeit.Timer('print "hello world"').timeit() Clojure: (time (dotimes [n 1000000] (println "hello world")))
07:02	LauJensen	The benchmark on my site is good, because you see both numerical crunching, IO and multithreading
07:03	mrBliss	What I'm trying to say is: Java and also Clojure are closer to C/C++ in speed than Python/Ruby/Perl
07:03	mrBliss	LauJensen: I'll try to come up with a faster Clojure version ;-)
07:03	AWizzArd	fliebel: was this really your test? If yes then I don’t understand why this python code writes one mio hello worlds
07:03	LauJensen	mrBliss: Thats just silly
07:03	fliebel	mrBliss: So how do you explain things like JRuby?
07:03	LauJensen	You cant compare the performance of Ruby with Python, they are completely different beasts
07:03	LauJensen	Python is much closer to C++ than Clojure
07:04	mrBliss	JRuby is something different
07:04	fliebel	AWizzArd: timeit defaults to that value.
07:04	mrBliss	LauJensen: Python also closer to C++ than Java?
07:05	LauJensen	mrBliss: In some cases - There's no one answer fits all with benchmarking
07:05	LauJensen	Sometimes Java is faster than C++
07:05	fliebel	LauJensen: Where's the benchmark on your site?
07:05	LauJensen	http://bestinclass.dk/index.clj/2009/12/clojure-vs-ruby-scala-transient-newsgroups.html
07:06	AWizzArd	fliebel: what needs to be imported so that I can try your example?
07:06	fliebel	AWizzArd: improt timeit
07:06	fliebel	*improt
07:06	fliebel	*i-m-p-o-r-t
07:06	AWizzArd	and for you this runs in 4.75 milliseconds?
07:07	LauJensen	http://download-llnw.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/uiswing/lookandfeel/nimbus.html
07:07	fliebel	AWizzArd: seconds
07:07	LauJensen	Any idea what these Bevels are that they are using ?
07:18	esj	What do you fine gentlemen use for grids on webpages ? I'm currently use this: http://dhtmlx.com/docs/products/dhtmlxGrid/ but wonder what else out there is good ?
07:20	AWizzArd	fliebel: one reason I could think of: does the Python version flush after each print?
07:20	AWizzArd	For me (time (dotimes [i 10000] (println "hello world"))) and (time (dotimes [i 10000] (println "hello world") (flush))) take the same amount of time.
07:21	mrBliss	printing to stdout involves interrupts
07:24	noidi	esj, years ago, when I still did web stuff, our designers used this http://www.blueprintcss.org/
07:25	esj	noidi: merci.
07:25	noidi	ack, ignore that
07:25	noidi	I didn't check your link before pasting mine
07:26	noidi	I thought you meant this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_(page_layout)
07:26	LauJensen	Does anybody have an exhaustive list of Swing Components with pictures?
07:26	cemerick	esj: I found http://960.gs the simplest, when I was looking some months ago.
07:27	noidi	phew, I wasn't the only one who made the same mistake ;)
07:28	cemerick	esj: hah, sorry :-) I don't think of tables as "grids".
07:28	esj	cemerick: :)
07:29	cemerick	esj: In that case, http://datatables.net/ :-)
07:29	alienscience	esj: I used the ExtJs grid about a year ago and wasn't impressed
07:29	esj	alienscience: thanks.
07:30	cemerick	Datatables' API is not pleasant, but it's jquery interop makes up for it.
07:30	LauJensen	Thanks for nothing : http://download.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/ui/features/components.html
07:38	AWizzArd	fliebel: Can you please import sys and see if timeit.Timer('print "hello world"; sys.stdout.flush()').timeit() makes any difference?
07:42	fliebel	AWizzArd: sure
07:43	fliebel	5.3126370906829834
07:44	AWizzArd	ok, so only a mild difference
07:44	fliebel	AWizzArd: I did notice that Python prints one line at a time, while Clojure seems to print random(and smaller?) chunks
07:45	defn	fliebel: I just got your email and wrote a short response
07:45	defn	fliebel: I've been /really/ busy this week, my last week of work at this job, moving to a new apartment, and starting school
07:46	Raynes	Does requiring namespaces with the :reload option have a tendency to build up memory?
07:46	defn	if you give me until Sunday I can respond on basecamp and we'll get started
07:46	fliebel	defn: great :)
07:46	fliebel	defn: Take as mutch time as you need, but just let me know what's up :)
07:46	defn	I'm excited to have some time to finally commit to it -- this job has been draining me :)
07:46	defn	fliebel: will do! now, time to move a couch!
07:47	fliebel	gives defn a CouchDB
07:47	defn	{:couch_location "other apartment"}
07:52	AWizzArd	fliebel: I think this comes from the Buffer that println uses. It contains, say, 1024 bytes, and then flushes, even if one line is not fully written.
07:53	fliebel	AWizzArd: So would it be faster to use other java output functions?
07:55	AWizzArd	I am not sure. If printing is really important one could use a StringBuilder into which one writes the hello worlds and then outputs that one.
07:56	Licenser	morgen
07:56	fliebel	Licenser: Moguh
07:57	Licenser	morgen fliebel
07:57	AWizzArd	fliebel: Probably Javas print methods do a good bit more extra work under the hood, but with some low level optimizations one should be able to reduce the time.
07:58	fliebel	(Licenser: Where are you from?)
07:58	Licenser	fliebel: germany
07:59	fliebel	AWizzArd: Let's focus on more interesting things...
08:00	fliebel	Licenser: Ah, I was hoping I had found another Dutch Clojurer. Well, it's at least the same continent.
08:01	Licenser	Ah you're not that far away fliebel ;)
08:01	mrBliss	fliebel: I'm from Belgium!
08:02	fliebel	mrBliss: Even closer, language-wise :)
08:02	mrBliss	inderdaad
08:03	fliebel	having thoughts about Clojure conferences and stuff
08:05	Licenser	the conference is too far away :(
08:05	Licenser	even so I'd love to go
08:05	fliebel	where is it?
08:05	citizen428	and i'm from austria. we should have a clojure conf somewhere around here :-)
08:06	fliebel	yea...
08:06	Licenser	fliebel: in the US
08:06	fliebel	Okay, lets do an EU conference! :)
08:07	Licenser	that I'm all for, we thought about doing something in germany already
08:07	Licenser	lets come all to berlin :P it's a nice place
08:09	fliebel	Sure :)
08:10	fliebel	Or how about Loenen? It's a bit small, but I know a school we could use :)
08:11	bobo_	we all know stockholm is the best place in europe
08:11	fliebel	uh… oh… really? Well, fine with me :)
08:11	Licenser	bobo_: berlin is!
08:12	bobo_	:-p
08:12	noidi	berlin's awesome :)
08:12	bobo_	berlin is probably the only town in germany i havent been in
08:13	fliebel	bobo_: So how can you teel stockholm is better?
08:13	bobo_	i live here?
08:14	fliebel	then Loenen is equally good, if not better, because I live here and we have the highest waterfall of the whole netherlands, which is a good laugh.
08:14	bobo_	how big is it? =)
08:15	fliebel	bobo_: I think I'm the only Clojure programmer who lives here, and the same is probably true for a lot of things.
08:15	fliebel	But thuse I'm also the best Clojure programmer in town :)
08:15	Licenser	fliebel: 2 meters?
08:15	Licenser	and I thought rick lives in the US
08:16	fliebel	Licenser: I'm about to fin out… we have NBS to keep track of those things.
08:16	Licenser	NBS?
08:16	Licenser	Netherland Broadcasting Service?
08:17	fliebel	CBS… Central office for statistics
08:17	Licenser	Oh
08:18	Licenser	well but yes we should do it in Loenen, might be the last chance before it gets flooded :P
08:18	Licenser	so on the other hand, yes we should really do a european clojure conference
08:19	fliebel	There's 8000 people in Loenen I think.
08:19	fliebel	Licenser: Yea, we should :)
08:19	Licenser	yes but it is in the netherlands, you all will get flooded
08:20	fliebel	Licenser: Not in Loenen, we're on top of a hill, at least 4m above sea :D
08:20	Licenser	Oh cool, then we might not have to do it there and can stay in Berlin :P
08:23	fliebel	Licenser: Okay… Will you organize everything?
08:23	Licenser	given it happens when I am actually in Berlin I'd be glad to help :)
08:24	bobo_	i could most likely help asweel, whatever i can do from sunny sweden that is
08:24	raek	count me in too!
08:24	raek	(+ what bobo_ said)
08:24	fliebel	bobo_: That sunny part sounds good, maybe we should do it in sweden? Only rain down here...
08:24	Licenser	wow sweedish clojurans
08:25	bobo_	Licenser: there are loads of sweedish clojurans!
08:25	fliebel	I only know sweedish cooks :)
08:25	Licenser	snickers
08:25	bobo_	about 15-20 people attending the stockholm clojure user group!
08:25	Licenser	I envie you bobo
08:26	AWizzArd	Licenser: soon we will manage this in Germany too :)
08:26	Licenser	AWizzArd: I hope
08:28	fliebel	Awesoe, didn't know that..: http://groups.google.com/group/amsterdam-clojurians
08:29	fliebel	But yea, I also want to help + what bobo_ said
08:30	krl	Licenser: there's been some berlin lisp meetings with clojure involved
08:31	Licenser	I know there was one but I wasn't aware they were frequent
08:31	krl	well. they're not very frequent :)
08:31	Licenser	krl: you're from berlin?
08:31	krl	yeah
08:32	krl	or, i live there rather :)
08:32	Licenser	wooh a neighbour
08:32	Licenser	same thing, once you arrive here you get assimilated
08:32	krl	Licenser: http://netzhansa.com/mailman/listinfo/lisp-berlin
08:33	krl	a bit dead
08:33	Licenser	nice thanks :)
08:33	Licenser	berlin also has a erlang community I learned recently
08:34	krl	next meet should be 7th sep
08:34	fliebel	So, krl, Licenser, When's the first EU Clojure Conj?
08:35	alienscience	An EU Clojure conj would be supercool - I'm in Nuernberg
08:35	Licenser	good question, I'd say after the US one, we should not bundle them too tightly ^^
08:36	raek	is it ok to use a -jure name if you came up with it before technomancy's leiningen patch that prohibits it? :-)
08:36	fliebel	Good :)
08:38	Licenser	raek: you can stil do them just o lein new blajxre and then rename it :P
08:39	fliebel	Licenser: Or we do it at the exact same time, so we can have live video from one continent to the other, :D
08:39	Licenser	nah that would be taking away people to go to the US not sure if that is good
08:39	fliebel	okay
08:40	raek	I know... but will people get angry if I do it? :-7
08:41	alienscience	raek: I think it would be cool. From what I understand the jure thing wasn't done in that much seriousness.
08:42	alienscience	If you really wanted some fun you could right a newjure plugin for leiningen
08:42	alienscience	s/right/write/
08:42	sexpbot	<alienscience> If you really wanted some fun you could write a newjure plugin for leiningen
08:43	Raynes	Or use cake.
08:46	esj	Raynes: wait ! I know the answer to this one :)
08:55	cemerick	technomancy: I'd be interested to hear what you have to say on this topic: http://bit.ly/cB8HtG
08:56	raek	is there anything like clojure.string/blank? that uses Character/isSpaceChar instead of Character/isWhitespace?
08:57	raek	raek: focus on the real problem. there isn't time to be a Unicode perfectionist all the time...
10:44	pdk	,(/ 1280 720)
10:44	clojurebot	16/9
10:45	pdk	,(/ 384 224)
10:45	clojurebot	12/7
10:52	_na_ka_na_	hey guys I have a question regarding clojure transactions.. suppose i have.. (dosync (when (= val @aref) (alter aref ...))) .. will clojure hold the lock on aref even if (not (= val @aref)) ?
10:53	_na_ka_na_	I want compare-and-swap kind of semantic for aref
10:53	_na_ka_na_	it has to be ref only . .can't use atom ..
10:55	kumarshantanu	any counterclockwise user here? I need to understand how auto-reload works
10:56	_na_ka_na_	i am
10:57	kumarshantanu	_na_ka_na_: the auto-reload feature is new in 0.62, which I don't understand how to use: http://code.google.com/p/counterclockwise/wiki/ReleaseNotes
10:57	lpetit	Hi there
10:57	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: Maybe I can help
10:57	_na_ka_na_	ofc lpetit :)
10:57	lpetit	what's the question exactly ?
10:58	_na_ka_na_	i'm still at 0.0.60 ..
10:58	kumarshantanu	lpetit: how can I run a file with auto-reload ON?
10:58	kumarshantanu	I am doing some web developoment using compojure, and need auto-reload to be ON
10:58	lpetit	you cannot
10:58	lpetit	you must start the Clojure JVM from the project's node.
10:59	kumarshantanu	lpetit: when I run (use 'my.ns) in the repl, it works
10:59	lpetit	You should see the builder do its stuff in the background, and all your namespaces will have been loaded for you in the Clojure VM
10:59	kumarshantanu	lpetit: ah okay
10:59	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: are you not making release announcements anymore? i didn't even get a 0.0.60 release notice
11:00	lpetit	I've set the defaults along this rationale: you start the CVM (Clojure VM) from the project's node = you are in "project mode" => auto reload is ON. You start from anything else (specific file, specific editor) => auto reload is OFF.
11:01	kumarshantanu	lpetit: so, do I need to (use 'my.ns) in the REPL to actually run my project?
11:01	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: you're right. 0.0.60 was shipped ~ 10 minutes before I went to holidays => quick release, no announcement. And 0.0.62 (I skipped by error a version number) was lazily shipped without release announcement. but I'll start again with good habits, I promise
11:02	lpetit	kumarshantanu: if you're doing "select the project node" > trigger the contextual menu > Run as Project Clojure VM, then no
11:03	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: okay - i stumbled upon 0.0.60 by mistake .. when installing ccw on my friend's m/c ..
11:03	lpetit	kumarshantanu: if you're doing "select myproject/src/my/ns.clj" > trigger the contextual menu > Run as Clojure VM with specified file loaded, then no. (but then you won't have auto-reload)
11:03	kumarshantanu	lpetit: I got it, thanks
11:04	kumarshantanu	lpetit: it's awesome
11:04	lpetit	kumarshantanu: if what I said above doesn't work for you, then there's a bug somewhere :)
11:05	kumarshantanu	lpetit: it's working fine (project mode)
11:05	lpetit	feww :)
11:06	kumarshantanu	lpetit: I understand the project mode loads all namespaces (and keeps reloading)...is that right?
11:06	lpetit	yes
11:06	lpetit	from the project > you want to load the project. And auto-load makes sense since you wanted to load everything at startup
11:06	_na_ka_na_	ooh 0.0.62 has cntl+click .. nice .. i've to check it out!
11:07	lpetit	from the file > you want to load the file, but just the file. auto-load as a default makes less sense, so it's off.
11:07	kumarshantanu	lpetit: that's terrific for interactive development -- I am using compojure and ring-jetty-adapter and I can add routes dynamically and do whatever and it gets reflected on the browser
11:08	lpetit	kumarshantanu: you're on the side of people who like to save and forget -as I generally do- :)
11:08	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: and "documentation hover" is around the corner, 75% done locally :)
11:09	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: ctrl+click is pretty young feature, please test and report issues :-)
11:10	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: even though i would love to help with development of ccw .. i only have 24 hours in a day :( ... why don't you make a way so people can donate for ccw!
11:11	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: mmm, let's me think about it :)
11:13	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: btw i'm 'ka' who responds on ccw google groups (if you remember)
11:14	lpetit	oh yes, ok. If you change your nicks for every channel, it'll be difficult to follow :)
11:14	kumarshantanu	lpetit: with all these features the CCW version can be easily bumped to 0.1 (if not higher) :-)
11:15	_na_ka_na_	kumarshantanu: maybe lpetit wants to remain modest :P
11:15	kumarshantanu	0.0.62 is injustice to the current CCW feature set
11:16	_na_ka_na_	do you know any people who think - oh its not even 0.1 ? i wont use it ?
11:17	kumarshantanu	_na_ka_na_: not really; even I have been using CCW since its early clojure-dev days
11:18	lpetit	kumarshantanu: I'm currently following the simple idea of correctly identifying versions. And since I do not intend to have several maintenance branches, it works just well. Insisting on just growing one number tries to make it clear that the number for itself means is nothing more than an identifier.
11:19	lpetit	But you're right, someday I'll switch to the classical 0.65.0 so that it's easier to spot bugfix-only releases from feature(+possibly bugfix) releases
11:19	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: one suggestion .. can we have indent whole block .. i.e. I select a block and press tab or cntl+I .... it would be really useful
11:20	_na_ka_na_	currently it works only line by line
11:20	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: I know that :)
11:20	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: it's in my head already. If you want to add it as a separate entry in the issue tracker, you're welcome
11:22	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: its coz my project partner uses emacs with some wierd config ... which messes up the whole indentation for me (introduces tabs etc.) .. but it looks just ok on his emacs .. then i have to do it line by line
11:22	_na_ka_na_	i like that ccw has a single policy .. only 2 space config by default
11:22	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: i'll add to issue tracker
11:23	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: it's as it is partly because it's opinionated, partly because of lack of time for making it configurable :-p
11:23	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: that's ok, but the default shouldn't change from 2 spaces .. :)
11:25	kumarshantanu	lpetit: _na_ka_na_ wants <Ctrl+Shift+F> (under "Source" menu in Java files) implemented it seems ;-)
11:25	kumarshantanu	for Clojure that is
11:26	lpetit	huh ? I thought I had disabled this feature ...
11:26	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: he means similar to the java one
11:26	lpetit	no it won't be "format block", but probably "reindent block"
11:26	lpetit	at least in a first release
11:26	_na_ka_na_	ya I want re-indent block
11:26	simard	what should I use as an array in clojure ? say I want to code... conway's game of life..
11:27	lpetit	So it will be Ctrl+Shift+I I guess
11:28	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: I would also like code formatters like present for java projects :)
11:28	lpetit	But I intend to make "indent line" more powerful first: it will not indent the line, but also all the children of the first form of the line, and also all the following siblings (and recursively the children of the siblings ...)
11:30	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: I'm not sure if that's a good thing .. coz some people might like to indent only one line ..
11:30	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: I'm getting ... Project Hosting is currently READ-ONLY for network maintenance.
11:31	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: maybe you can keep separate shortcuts .. tab/cntl+I for one line .. cntl+shift+I for a form
11:32	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: interesting, cntl+shift+I with no selection could have the above described behavior , indeed
11:33	_na_ka_na_	yup
11:33	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: I was in fact more thinking about auto-indent when adding a newline. I then almost always wish that it reindents correctly the sibling forms
11:34	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: maybe this .. keep separate shortcuts cntl+I (one line), cntl+shift+I (form) ... and make tab configurable either ident off or cntl+I or cntl+shift+I .. :D
11:40	_na_ka_na_	anyone answer my aref question from above?
11:42	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: it's sometimes pleasant to be able to be the person with the final choices in his hands :-)
11:42	_na_ka_na_	:)
11:43	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: only sometimes though :)
11:43	lpetit	:)
11:44	_na_ka_na_	one of the ted video is about this, I'm forgetting which one
11:56	arkh	is the syntax to dereference something in a defrecord '(deref (:thing record)))' ?
11:58	lpetit	arkh: sure. Think incrementally: record -> (:thing record) -> and if it is a ref, then just call deref / @
11:59	arkh	so this is ok too? @(:thing record)
12:01	arkh	,(let [sth {:keyword (atom true)}] (prn @(:keyword sth)))
12:01	clojurebot	true
12:01	arkh	I guess I just hadn't seen that syntax before. lpetit: thanks
12:02	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: any remote chance your team works on #134 next ?
12:03	lpetit	Now is time to explain me what exactly #134 means. I'm not totally sure to know what the command does (I have several conflicting ideas in my mind)
12:04	lpetit	OK, I've got it.
12:04	lpetit	Little chance for it to be next
12:05	_na_ka_na_	hmm
12:05	lpetit	sorry :-(
12:05	_na_ka_na_	no prob .. I'll just keep on searching for the var in the project till then
12:06	_na_ka_na_	lpetit: maybe you can answer my aref question from above, noone else seems to be around
12:07	lpetit	_na_ka_na_: I didn't see it, maybe you posted id before I connected
12:07	_na_ka_na_	suppose i have.. (dosync (when (= val @aref) (alter aref ...))) .. will clojure hold the lock on aref even if (not (= val @aref)) ?
12:07	_na_ka_na_	yes i did
12:07	technomancy	cemerick: specifically about alt. swank clients? it was discussed and decided against in the past because swank-clojure was GPL'd, but I relicensed it to EPL, so it's an option. the gain would be iffy though if you're porting slime.el anyway; I wouldn't be surprised if it were easier to start from scratch.
12:07	_na_ka_na_	I want compare-and-swap kind of semantic for aref
12:08	technomancy	there's lots of baggage in the slime protocol; just steal the interesting bits from swank-clojure without taking the whole protocol with it
12:09	cemerick	technomancy: Thanks. That's basically where I've landed as well.
12:09	hiredman	_na_ka_na_: the stm is implemented using locks, but they are transactions
12:09	hiredman	don't worry about locks being held
12:10	hiredman	they are not some thin facade over locks
12:10	cemerick	I'd fundamentally like to see all Clojure environments using the same REPL backend, but that probably won't gain a lot of traction with the emacs crowd. :-)
12:10	_na_ka_na_	hiredman: that's right, I'm only asking if my code from above has compare-and-swap sematics
12:10	hiredman	no, you asked if a lock was held
12:10	technomancy	cemerick: I'm no fan of maintaining swank-clojure myself... but it's slightly easier than writing a bunch of brand-new elisp.
12:10	_na_ka_na_	hiredman: ok sorry I put my question wrongly
12:11	hiredman	transactions as a whole are compare and swap
12:11	technomancy	cemerick: once emacs is a clojure compilation target we can talk.
12:11	cemerick	heh
12:11	cemerick	technomancy: surely there are the requisite hooks in slime to swap out the underlying protocol being used?
12:11	hiredman	if the value of a ref touched by the transaction has changed by the commit point of the transaction the transaction is retried
12:12	technomancy	cemerick: I doubt it, though it would probably be feasible to lift certain portions of UI code wholesale.
12:13	technomancy	elisp doesn't really have a strong engineering culture to say the least; there's no notion of modularity or componentization.
12:13	cemerick	heh, yeah, I figured that one out ;-)
12:14	technomancy	kind of like JS in that regard; it's mostly just used for building UIs and talking to things that are smarter than it is.
12:14	cemerick	In any case, my current goal is to make sure that at least ccw and enclojure are using the same REPL library.
12:14	cemerick	Even that is turning into more of a project than I thought though :-)
12:15	cemerick	At the moment, I'm tempted to chuck it all and just have every server running on top of jetty.
12:15	technomancy	what's the draw of HTTP apart from being able to get around firewalls?
12:16	technomancy	I don't really see myself using anything but SSH for remote repls.
12:18	cemerick	managing protocols is a crummy way to spend one's time. With HTTP, at least the wire is taken care of for us.
12:19	arkh	any recommendations on a simple db for use with clojure? I know there's quite a few options out there. My goal is fast implementation. K/V store vs. SQL doesn't matter. Performance is secondary right now.
12:20	cemerick	That said, basic auth + SSL so that ssh could be avoided for many things would be very convenient.
12:20	hiredman	arkh: http://db.apache.org/derby/
12:20	arohner	arkh: mongodb, congomongo
12:20	cemerick	Using HTTP introduces nontrivial dependencies though, which will be a problem for people.
12:20	cemerick	Anyway, we'll hopefully come to some agreement over the weekend, etc.
12:21	_na_ka_na_	hiredman: suppose the when part of code is running in one thread (T1) with val=15, it derefs aref and gets 10 .. now it starts making comparison .. at exactly the same time parallelly in another thread value of aref is updated to 15 (committed) .. in this case the transaction in T1 wont get re-started
12:21	lpetit	cemerick: plain socket. ssh tunneling with keys for people wanting to do so
12:21	mrBliss	_na_ka_na_: look at (doc ensure)
12:21	cemerick	lpetit: Sure, ssh isn't always a problem, but when it's a problem, it's a big problem.
12:21	hiredman	_na_ka_na_: it will be if the ref is ever written to or as mrBliss suggests ensured
12:22	cemerick	In any case, avoiding ssh is hardly my tenth reason to be considering HTTP. shrug
12:22	_na_ka_na_	mrBliss: that's exactly my question is ensure necessary for compare-and-swap semantics for ref?
12:23	lpetit	cemerick: do you imagine things other than clojure clients connecting to the future repl server ?
12:23	_na_ka_na_	(dosync (when (= val (ensure aref)) (alter aref ...)))
12:23	_na_ka_na_	is this necessary?
12:24	lpetit	cemerick: if not, then "HTTP the standard" does not buy a lot if along with the serverrepl a full clojure IDE-free dependency free client is shipped.
12:24	cemerick	lpetit: Who knows? Not requiring Clojure on the client side wouldn't be a horrible thing, certainly. Consider ajaxy calls into a sandboxed REPL server running over HTTP...
12:24	lpetit	cemerick: any clojure implementation from dot net to javascript .. would then be able to connect to your server, and "HTTP the standard" becomes an implementation detail again.
12:24	mrBliss	_na_ka_na_: I think so, or you could use alter
12:24	clojurebot	alter is always correct
12:25	lpetit	cemerick: you're right
12:25	cemerick	lpetit: There's no such thing as a "pure clojure" implementation of a wire protocol. You're always going to be touching the host for stuff like DataOutputStream et al.
12:25	lpetit	how did I miss that one
12:26	cemerick	That's probably reason #2 for HTTP IMO. :-)
12:26	cemerick	Everything with an HTTP client API can play.
12:29	lpetit	let's introduce some engineering in it: split the server code so that the serving protocol is interchangeable. HTTP when the project affords to add jetty dependency or even servlet-based service, something simple based on sockets.
12:29	lpetit	cemerick ^^
12:30	hiredman	if you are doing that you may as well just use the socket version and have a jetty based client
12:31	cemerick	lpetit: just to avoid the dependency?
12:31	cemerick	hiredman: a jetty-based client?
12:31	cemerick	i.e. invert things like X does?
12:31	KirinDave	cemerick: I had a crazy idea last night in the gym shower. Rest easy, it did not involve anatomy.
12:32	KirinDave	cemerick: What if we...
12:32	KirinDave	cemerick: wait for it
12:32	hiredman	cemerick: the socket server for everyone and a client for the socket server that translates it to http
12:32	KirinDave	cemerick: Used thread locals and exceptions and some additional syntax to implement conditions and restarts?
12:32	lpetit	cemerick: it's probably not hard to create a protocol agnostic interface for a message-based "abstract" protocol. Then all the intelligent feature is behind the interface, and the real server part is configurable
12:33	cemerick	KirinDave: as in, error-kit?
12:33	KirinDave	cemerick: Does error-kit go all the way though?
12:33	KirinDave	And register them?
12:33	cemerick	oh, you mean with slime? No idea, I don't do emacs. :-)
12:34	KirinDave	No
12:34	KirinDave	I mean internally
12:34	KirinDave	Yeah I don't think error-kit is quite where I wanted to go.
12:34	KirinDave	Anyways, I'll POC after my wedding and show it to you.
12:34	KirinDave	i think we can do everything
12:35	lpetit	cemerick: I've thought about inverting things and make ccw the server and the remote VM the client. But I don't believe in it.
12:35	SirNick	What happens if you put a (defmacro) inside a (defn) and call the defined function? Wouldn't that require macro expansion and compilation at runtime?
12:36	lpetit	cemerick: Not sure why I came to that conclusion, though. Maybe something to do with the fact that then remote VM has the responsibility to maintain the connection.
12:36	lpetit	cemerick: and it seems "silly" to expect some google app engine based application try to connect to my eclipse inside my enterprise :)
12:37	cemerick	hiredman: I think you just took all the usefulness of HTTP out of the mix :-)
12:37	SirNick	(hopefully that didn't send multiple times. I was having some connections problems)
12:37	cemerick	feh, stupid wifi
12:37	cemerick	hiredman: I think you just took all the usefulness of HTTP out of the mix
12:37	cemerick	(not sure if that one got through)
12:38	lpetit	it did
12:38	arohner	does anyone have slime-tramp working, so you can C-c C-l files on a remote box?
12:38	lpetit	SirNick: it won't
12:39	SirNick	lpetit: It wont require macro expansion and compilation, or it wont work?
12:39	cemerick	lpetit: the handy thing about jetty as far as ccw is concerned is that it's already in eclipse :-)
12:40	lpetit	SirNick: not totally sure about the details, but it will macro expand, evaluate. During evaluation, fns are compiled. Calls to def are immediately emitted
12:40	lpetit	cemerick: which Eclipse :)
12:41	cemerick	lpetit: in mine, anyway :-) I thought it came with the platform all the time?
12:42	lpetit	cemerick: maybe, I don't know. I wanted to spot that it may be an internal detail of Eclipse.
12:47	lpetit	cemerick: while I understand your wish to use HTTP, I would really like to keep it optional and have most simple protocol socket based . e.g. the command is one clojure sexp as a string (of course!), doubled by the length of the string. This can translate easily to an HTTP POST later. And the rest of the server code does not know about this and just receives the clojure sexp. I have made the server response in serverrepl.clj a litt
12:49	lpetit	oh, we lost cemerick
12:52	lpetit	cemerick: did you see my last message ?
12:52	lpetit	cemerick: while I understand your wish to use HTTP, I would really like to keep it optional and have most simple protocol socket based . e.g. the command is one clojure sexp as a string (of course!), doubled by the length of the string. This can translate easily to an HTTP POST later. And the rest of the server code does not know about this and just receives the clojure sexp. I have made the server response in serverrepl.clj a litt
12:52	jfields	is there anything in clojure like: (defn +? [& more]
12:52	jfields	(apply + (remove nil? more)))
12:53	jfields	i keep encountering this situation where I want to (update-in m [k1 k2] + 14) and it always fails if there is no current value.
12:53	lpetit	(doc fnil)
12:53	clojurebot	"([f x] [f x y] [f x y z]); Takes a function f, and returns a function that calls f, replacing a nil first argument to f with the supplied value x. Higher arity versions can replace arguments in the second and third positions (y, z). Note that the function f can take any number of arguments, not just the one(s) being nil-patched."
12:54	lpetit	,(update-in [] (fnil + 0) 14)
12:54	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: core$fnil$fn__5585
12:55	lpetit	,(update-in [] 0 (fnil + 0) 14)
12:55	clojurebot	java.lang.UnsupportedOperationException: nth not supported on this type: Integer
12:55	lpetit	(doc update-in)
12:55	clojurebot	"([m [k & ks] f & args]); 'Updates' a value in a nested associative structure, where ks is a sequence of keys and f is a function that will take the old value and any supplied args and return the new value, and returns a new nested structure. If any levels do not exist, hash-maps will be created."
12:55	jfields	,(update-in {} [:a :b] (fnil + 0) 14)
12:55	clojurebot	{:a {:b 14}}
12:55	edbond	how to reload enlive deftemplates on every compojure request?
12:55	edbond
12:55	lpetit	jfields: yep
12:56	jfields	lpetit, thanks. looks kind of meh, but if that's what I've got, I'll roll with it.
12:56	lpetit	cemerick: must leave, will let you answer (if you wish) by email. cu all
13:08	_na_ka_na_	mrBliss hiredman: I've been trying but haven't been able to reproduce a case where the code without ensure would not show compare and swap semantics ... ofc this doesn't mean it will always ..
13:35	_na_ka_na_	I should ask the question more precisely .. here's another attempt
13:35	_na_ka_na_	[1] (dosync
13:35	_na_ka_na_	[2] (if (= @a 10)
13:35	_na_ka_na_	[3] (ref-set a 20)
13:35	_na_ka_na_	[4] (..do something time consuming ..)))
13:35	_na_ka_na_	Is it guaranteed that Clojure will re-try the above transaction if 'a' is written to while [4] is executing?
13:37	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: Yes, if a new value of 'a' is committed, this transaction will retry.
13:38	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: thanks
13:39	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: that's the case even if [4] is not trying to write to 'a', right?
13:39	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: ref-set marks this transaction as affecting 'a' so yes.
13:40	LauJensen	There is a great article on the commit process online somewhere, lemme see if I can find it
13:40	LauJensen	http://java.ociweb.com/mark/stm/article.html#STM
13:40	LauJensen	Worth reading
13:40	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: that was my confusion, in the transaction since a is written conditionally .. does clojure optimize and write to 'a' only if it was really written to
13:41	_na_ka_na_	..reading now..
13:42	_na_ka_na_	oops .. that came out wrong ... does clojure optimize and retry the transaction* only if 'a' was really written to
13:42	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: My memory is failing me... Try to read the article, otherwise we'll have to check the code. I think it actually only retries if the conditional is true
13:43	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: hmm
13:43	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: do you mean that's an implementation detail ?
13:44	LauJensen	yea I guess you could say that - but like I said, its been a few months since I looked at it
13:45	kumarshantanu	how can I transform this? -- [:a 10 :b 20 :c 30] --> [:a 10] [:b 20] [:c 30]
13:46	semperos	zipper functionality?
13:46	dnolen	,(into [] (map vector (partition 2 [:a 10 :b 20 :c 30])))
13:46	clojurebot	[[(:a 10)] [(:b 20)] [(:c 30)]]
13:46	dnolen	oops
13:46	noidi	,(map vec (partition 2 [:a 10 :b 20 :c 30]))
13:46	clojurebot	([:a 10] [:b 20] [:c 30])
13:47	dnolen	,(into [] (map vec (partition 2 [:a 10 :b 20 :c 30])))
13:47	clojurebot	[[:a 10] [:b 20] [:c 30]]
13:47	hiredman	be sure to use partition-all
13:47	dnolen	,(doc partition-all)
13:47	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists like partition, but may include partitions with fewer than n items at the end."
13:47	hiredman	,(partition 2 [:a 10 :b])
13:47	clojurebot	((:a 10))
13:48	hiredman	,(partition-all 2 [:a 10 :b])
13:48	clojurebot	((:a 10) (:b))
13:48	LauJensen	or regular partition with padding
13:48	kumarshantanu	noidi: dnolen: hiredman: LauJensen: thanks
13:48	hiredman	it's easier to add padding with a map after partition-all then it is before a partition
13:49	LauJensen	,(doc partition)
13:49	clojurebot	"([n coll] [n step coll] [n step pad coll]); Returns a lazy sequence of lists of n items each, at offsets step apart. If step is not supplied, defaults to n, i.e. the partitions do not overlap. If a pad collection is supplied, use its elements as necessary to complete last partition upto n items. In case there are not enough padding elements, return a partition with less than n items."
13:49	LauJensen	notice the 3rd arity hiredman
13:50	hiredman	I see
13:50	LauJensen	, (partition 2 1 [9] [1 2 3])
13:50	clojurebot	((1 2) (2 3) (3 9))
14:05	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: This kind of proves that Clojure will not re-try the transaction always .. http://gist.github.com/562631
14:09	pjstadig	when are we going to be able to register for the ClojureConj?
14:10	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: Yea, I was assuming to find something in Ref.set which would show that the STM is alerted to the change, but its not there. I think your theory is correct though
14:12	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: hmm ... so the way to correctly implement compare-and-set for ref is : (dosync (when (= val (ensure a)) (ref-set a ...)))
14:12	LauJensen	(on the phone)
14:14	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: ensure is effectively a writer lock, is that what you want ?
14:14	_na_ka_na_	LauJensen: I want an atomic compare-and-set for ref ..
14:14	LauJensen	_na_ka_na_: Actually, this is probably parallel to an issue AWizzArd faced, which he ended up solving with Cells - AWizzArd got an oppinion on this?
14:15	aavram	testing
14:38	aavram	I am using clojure.contrib.sql to talk to a netezza database. I have 2 sql queries, each of which run fine outside of clojure. The first query is a simple SELECT statement that returns data correctly via the with-query-results function. The second query is similar to the first but contains a GROUP BY statement and though valid, fails via clojure with the following error, "org.netezza.error.NzSQLException: Driver can process one query
14:38	aavram	time (NO_SOURCE_FILE:1)" Any help appreciated :)
14:45	aavram	perhaps there is underlying concurrency that netezza is complaining about?
14:48	kumarshantanu	can anybody let me know how can I provide 1 docstring per variadic arg version of a function?
14:49	hiredman	can't
14:49	kumarshantanu	hiredman: ah okay...any plans to include in a future Clojure version?
14:50	hiredman	nope
14:50	hoeck	aavram: maybe you forgot to close the first query before issuing the second one
14:51	hoeck	aavram: looks like your jdbc driver cannot handle more than one open query
14:52	aavram	i guess it is a driver issue, because if I start a new repl and try the group-by query alone, it still fails
14:54	hoeck	aavram: clojure.sql uses plain jdbc, basically in the same way as using it from java, only with less LOCs :)
14:55	aavram	I'm basically doing the same thing as step #4 here http://stackoverflow.com/questions/613929/how-do-i-connect-to-a-mysql-database-from-clojure but using Netezza connection info
14:58	aavram	hoeck: thanks for your help, hoping for a work-around :)
15:01	hoeck	aavram: never heard of netezza, and step #4 works for the first query?
15:02	aavram	hoeck: yes step #4 works for all simple queries involving only SELECT...FROM but no GROUP BY
15:02	aavram	Netezza is from netezza.com developed from postgres i believe
15:04	aavram	I suppose I could do the group-by step in clojure... but when the data is large that may be unwise. It would be better if the database would do what it normally does and pass results to clojure...
15:06	hoeck	aavram: mhh, even a group-by is just a plain ResultSet from a jdbc point of view
15:08	aavram	ok, not sure how to debug further though.
15:09	hoeck	aavram: to be 100% shure wether its a clojure or jdbc thing, you could download sql-workbench/j and try the select-group-by there
15:09	hoeck	http://www.sql-workbench.net/index.html
15:09	aavram	hoeck: thanks for the link, I'll check it out :)
15:09	hoeck	used it once to test my own clojure jdbc driver
15:10	aavram	cool.
15:13	LauJensen	Does anyone know if the Swingset 3 source is available?
15:19	hoeck	LauJensen: you mean this: https://swingset3.dev.java.net/source/browse/swingset3/ ?
15:20	LauJensen	I think thats the one hoeck, thanks a lot
15:27	_fogus_	cemerick: I didn't understand your tweet :-(
15:29	LauJensen	_fogus_: What are you doing here man? You're supposed to be out hating on all those coding in poor style :(
15:31	cemerick	_fogus_: oh, just giving you a hard time about adopting stranded languages :-)
15:34	_fogus_	cemerick: Well, it was either langs or defunct OSes, but I thought the former was a little more reasonable. ;-)
15:34	_fogus_	LauJensen: My days as paren-police are over
15:36	cemerick	_fogus_: Qi (on top of Clojure, of course) would probably be where I'd go first, but I'm in no position to be expanding my language tinkering.
15:36	_fogus_	Qi is coming to Clojure
15:37	_fogus_	(well, next gen Qi)
15:37	cemerick	do you know of news in that regard? I remember it being talked about, but the fork of it seemed to go dead.
15:38	_fogus_	cemerick: You'll notice however that I totally passed the buck to the Twitter-verse. I have enough defunct languages on my hands :-p
15:38	dnolen	Tarver's been posting every couple weeks about the progress of Shen on the Qi ML, seems like the core is done.
15:40	_fogus_	http://groups.google.co.uk/group/qilang/browse_thread/thread/fe07f6a5032d5d47
15:46	arohner	so what's the point of Qi now that clojure is taking off?
15:52	cemerick	The optional static typing and pattern matching stuffs AFAIK.
15:54	mcav	Is there a recommended way to deploy compojure apps? Some tutorials use uberjar, some use rsync, and others recommend deploying to a WAR file. Any reason to prefer one way over another?
15:55	ordnungswidrig	hia ll
15:56	LauJensen	hi
15:57	LauJensen	mcav: war files for tomcat/jboss, rsync when you dont want to precompile, uberjars when you just want a single jar-file (with or without source)
15:57	cemerick	mcav: Compojure webapps are java webapps, so all the same rules apply -- e.g. deploying using a .war file is far preferable in almost every case IMO.
15:58	mcav	thanks, makes sense. Having had no java experience, I'm just now learning what Java apps do for deployment as well.
15:59	cemerick	mcav: FWIW, war packaging is built-in to maven, if you happen to be using it for your builds.
15:59	cemerick	I think there's a war file plugin for lein
16:00	LauJensen	..and cake
16:00	LauJensen	mcav: There are 2 Clojure based build tools you might want to have a look at, one is Leiningen (lein) the other is Cake
16:00	ordnungswidrig	all those j2ee stuff... Did anybody some EJB3 with clojure? If yes, I assume it was done for fun.
16:00	mcav	I'm using leiningen
16:00	ordnungswidrig	huh, cake?
16:01	mcav	have only heard about cake once or twice recently
16:01	cemerick	I'm surprised so many people are recommending cake so soon.
16:01	LauJensen	cemerick: Cake is fantastic
16:01	alexyk	there used to be a -Dclojure.jar=... option to maven building clojure-contrib; no longer mentioned in README.txt there. Looks like mvn compile downloads clojure-1.2.0, even when in a git checkout of clojure-contrib-1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT. Is it OK to just mvn install for use with clojure master?
16:01	LauJensen	Ive done my most recent builds with cake, and have been constantly impressed with it
16:02	alexyk	LauJensen: constantly or instantly? :)
16:02	cemerick	I'm quite done with task-based build tools.
16:02	ordnungswidrig	so cake is ruby?
16:02	LauJensen	alexyk: constantly. Whenever something comes up that I need to work out, I get impressed by its design and the authors personal commitment to it
16:03	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: Where lein is bash/clojure, cake is ruby/clojure
16:03	ordnungswidrig	huh?
16:03	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: Where lein is bash/clojure, cake is ruby/clojure
16:03	alexyk	LauJensen: agreed, I was aware of cake when it was only a closed beta! :)
16:03	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: ok, I got it.
16:03	LauJensen	alexyk: I was aware when it was semi-closed alpha :) !
16:04	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: haha, you did? :)
16:04	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen:
16:04	LauJensen	One of the really nice things with Cake, is that its cross platform, so both on unix, mac and Windows, just hit 'gem install cake' and you're all set
16:04	alexyk	LauJensen: I saw it as an embryo in ninjudd's mind!
16:04	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: I already slept and wake up again, so bare with me.
16:04	LauJensen	well, on Windows its 'gem install win32-process' then 'gem install cake'
16:04	alexyk	cake says it runs on Commodore 64 too
16:04	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen:
16:04	ordnungswidrig	doh
16:05	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: windows is a corner case
16:05	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: I know you love highlighting me, but please... :)
16:05	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: no offense :-)
16:05	LauJensen	Im just saying: If you guys havent tried to base a build off cake, you're missing something
16:05	LauJensen	And the task/deps system is off the hook, I've really enjoyed working with it
16:06	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: can I expect it to be a drop-in replacement for lein?
16:06	alexyk	so, how do we build clojure-contrib using the clojure-1.3.0-master-SNAPSHOT.jar from github build locally?
16:06	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: or some reconfiguration needed?
16:06	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: yea, unless you're using personal plugins, then you need to rewrite
16:06	LauJensen	otherwise its a drop-in thing
16:06	LauJensen	anyway, thats it for my commercial break, back to work :)
16:06	cemerick	LauJensen: "off the hook"? :-D
16:06	ordnungswidrig	LauJensen: i'll check. If it isn't I'll keep highlighting you :)
16:07	LauJensen	ordnungswidrig: fantastic :)
16:07	LauJensen	cemerick: No such thing? :)
16:07	cemerick	heh .. there is, but I think it was more in vogue circa 2005-ish, at least in the U.S. ;-)
16:08	cemerick	Definitely made me smile, though!
16:08	LauJensen	then it was worth it :)
16:16	kencausey	I'm using emacs/slime/swank. I start up the day and (use 'myproject.myfile) in the repl for quick testing, experiments. This is fine until I add a new function. I can C-c C-c (compile-defun) it and there are no complaints, but the new definition is not available at the REPL. What's the proper way to keep the loop going?
16:16	LauJensen	then it was worth it :)
16:16	raek	you'll have to run use again, or do a (in-ns 'myproject.myfile)
16:17	LauJensen	oops, M-p, I thought I was in the REPL :)
16:17	raek	(probably the latter)
16:17	raek	,(doc in-ns)
16:17	clojurebot	"([name]); Sets ns to the namespace named by the symbol, creating it if needed."
16:18	raek	it makes the repl eval things inside that namespace, anyway...
16:20	kencausey	But by using 'use the 'myproject.myfile becomes part of 'user, I can see in the results of (all-ns)
16:20	kencausey	s/see in/see it in/
16:20	sexpbot	<kencausey> But by using 'use the 'myproject.myfile becomes part of 'user, I can see it in the results of (all-ns)
16:21	nickik	stupid question but how do i make a newline in a string (str "line1" ..... "line2") <-- what goes here ......?
16:21	raek	use only adds the public vars that are available at the point when use is ran
16:22	raek	it doesn't make any automatic connection between the namespaces
16:22	kencausey	However I will admit that (in-ns) does work, I just would have thought it would be no different than (use) in this
16:22	kencausey	OK, I see
16:23	kencausey	thanks
16:26	hoeck	nickik: \newline
16:28	nickik	thx
16:30	raek	the recommended way of calling use is by listing all the vars one intend to utilize: (use '[foo.bar :only [x y z]])
16:31	cemerick	raek: use is usually recommended against, at least for general use
16:31	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: no use for use in general?
16:31	raek	yeah, a namespace alias is always safer, right?
16:32	hiredman	cemerick: what is wrong with :use and :only?
16:32	cemerick	ordnungswidrig: one should not use use for almost any use case ;-)
16:32	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: what is the replacement for :only then?
16:32	cemerick	raek: right
16:32	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: require :as ?
16:33	cemerick	hiredman: fundamentally, nothing, except that it's far simpler to simply recommend against using use
16:33	cemerick	ordnungswidrig: yes, (:require (some.optional.prefix [ns-name :as local-name]))
16:33	hiredman	cemerick: ok, I'll just ignore your recomendations then
16:33	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: g
16:34	alienscience	I use :use all the time
16:34	alienscience	Is it really that bad?
16:34	hiredman	can someone please set the mode on this channel so I can change my nick from hiredman_ to hiredman without having to part/join
16:34	cemerick	hiredman: fair enough. irc is not a good place for nuanced explanations.
16:34	ordnungswidrig	while switching to 1.2 my uses of use used to drop badly on my foot
16:35	hiredman	cemerick: you have a marvelous proof but these margins are too narrow?
16:35	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: there is no nick hiredman_
16:35	cemerick	alienscience: namespace pollution is an issue, and is what prompted the last-var-(mostly)-wins behaviour.
16:35	ordnungswidrig	cemerick:
16:35	ordnungswidrig	cemerick: I like the "mostly"-part best :)
16:35	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: my client reconnected for some reason and the server still had a zombie connection as hiredman so my client picked the nick hiredman_
16:36	cemerick	hiredman: proof? margins?
16:36	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: I see you as "hiredman" here
16:36	hiredman	I just had to part/join to change it back because the mode on this channel doesn't allow nick changes
16:36	hiredman	ordnungswidrig: it was five minutes ago
16:36	hiredman	pay attention
16:36	ordnungswidrig	hiredman: I see. Gosh it's late at my place
16:36	hiredman	cemerick: fermat?
16:37	hiredman	cemerick: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat's_Last_Theorem#Fermat.27s_conjecture
16:37	ordnungswidrig	btw, what's the state on the P!=NP prove?
16:37	joly	I'm curious about the :use recommendation too. I just used it in a file meant to be in a DSL, where I'd rather not have the users doing (parse/menu "abc" (parse/item "123")) etc.
16:38	hiredman	joly: you're fine
16:38	ordnungswidrig	says hiredman. now back to cemerick:
16:38	joly	cool, glad to hear it. :) This is my first time using clojure "for real"
16:39	hiredman	I hope he's still busy with the wikipedia article
16:39	hiredman	clojurebot: ping?
16:39	clojurebot	PONG!
16:39	LauJensen	Fermats last theoreom took 9 years to complete IIRC, and Fermat himself noted in the margin of his book "I have a funny little proof for this theorom" in the 1600s :)
16:39	cemerick	joly: yeah, you're fine since you know what you're doing. 'use' is a longer length of rope than require is all.
16:40	aavram	hi, what is the best way to turn a sequence of maps (as returned from a database query) into an incanter "dataset" ?
16:40	hiredman	LauJensen: 9 years for the guy who finally solved it, people have been trying since fermat's time
16:40	cemerick	hiredman: lovely reference. Shit, you know I'm a mostly skill-less code monkey, right? ;-)
16:41	LauJensen	hiredman: right
16:41	LauJensen	and 2 of those years were debugging :)
16:42	hiredman	I had some non-clojure related news over lunch that's left me a little more combative than normal I expect
16:42	technomancy	just don't challenge stuart S to a duel; he's a trained swordsman
16:42	LauJensen	hiredman: you? combative? noooo :)
16:43	pjstadig	stuart S ? i'm confused
16:43	raek	the other suart... :)
16:43	raek	*stuart
16:44	pjstadig	i know who stuart S is...i was confused about how he entered the convo
16:45	technomancy	pjstadig: he's not a guy you want to get combative with is all.
16:45	pjstadig	technomancy: duly noted
16:46	hiredman	you just feint for the chin, he's very protective of it
17:42	brw314	test
18:02	scottj	Is there an easy way with compojure/slime to have clj-stacktrace used to print all stacktraces that appear in the terminal?
18:02	technomancy	scottj: you can re-def clojure.stacktrace/print-stack-trace to clj-stacktrace/pst if you're OK with a heinous monkeypatch.
18:06	replaca	for some reason "]
18:06	replaca	:dev-dependencies [[swank-clojure "1.2.1"]])
18:06	replaca	ack, retry
18:06	replaca	for some reason: [org.apache.xmlrpc/xmlrpc "3.1.3"] fails to get the right library even though I see it on central
18:07	replaca	when I run lein deps
18:09	replaca	I get this: http://gist.github.com/563043, which is not helping me
18:09	replaca	any ideas?
18:12	scottj	technomancy: don't think that works. have you actually done it?
18:14	hiredman	scottj: yes he has
18:14	scottj	(in-ns 'clojure.stacktrace) (clojure.core/require 'clj-stacktrace.repl) (def print-stack-trace clj-stacktrace.repl/pst) ?
18:15	hiredman	you'll have to ask him
18:16	replaca	hmm, it seems like if I depend on xmlrpc-client it works OK, but the meta project doesn't get pulled right
18:16	replaca	oh well
18:16	scottj	Are C-M-x and C-c C-c kind of redundant? Does C-c C-c give any better file line info than C-M-x? Anyone rebound C-M-x to do eval the eval only the most immediate parent form?
18:19	technomancy	(into (sorted-map)
18:19	technomancy	(zipmap (vals secs-in-units)
18:19	technomancy	(keys secs-in-units))))]
18:19	technomancy	[(float (/ secs i)) units])))
18:19	technomancy	(defn unit-time [secs coll]
18:19	technomancy	(let [[i units] (first coll)
18:19	technomancy	secs-rem (- secs (* (secs-in-units units) (Math/floor i)))]
18:19	technomancy	(if (> (count coll) 1)
18:19	technomancy	(cons [(int (Math/floor i)) units]
18:19	technomancy	(unit-time secs-rem (apply-secs secs-rem)))
18:19	technomancy	[[(int i) units]])))
18:20	technomancy	(defn human-time [secs]
18:20	hiredman	uh, phil?
18:20	technomancy	(apply str
18:20	technomancy	(interpose " "
18:20	technomancy	(map #(format "%s%s" (first %) (second %))
18:20	technomancy	(unit-time secs (apply-secs secs))))))
18:20	technomancy	(defn copy-to-uniq-file [dir stream prefix suffix]
18:20	danlarkin	oh. my. god.
18:20	technomancy	(.mkdirs dir)
18:20	technomancy	(let [file (File/createTempFile prefix suffix dir)]
18:20	technomancy	(with-open [outs (FileOutputStream. file)]
18:20	technomancy	(copy stream outs))
18:20	technomancy	(.getCanonicalPath file)))
18:20	scottj	gotta love consistent reliable copy paste in nix
18:20	technomancy	(defmacro tap->> [name & body]
18:20	technomancy	`((fn [~name]
18:20	technomancy	~@(butlast body)
18:20	technomancy	~name)
18:20	technomancy	~(last body)))
18:20	technomancy	(defmacro accumulate
18:20	technomancy	"map:for :: reduce:accumulate"
18:20	technomancy	([accum bindings body]
18:20	technomancy	`(reduce (fn ~[(first accum) (first bindings)] ~body)
18:21	dnolen	probably accidental paste into erc
18:21	technomancy	~(second accum) ~(second bindings)))
18:21	technomancy	([[name value] body]
18:21	technomancy	`(let [[init# & more#] ~value]
18:21	technomancy	(accumulate [~'% init#] [~name more#] ~body))))
18:21	technomancy	dammit
18:21	dnolen	technomancy: you pasted into your irc client
18:21	technomancy	paste misfire
18:21	technomancy	need to set up a way to get ERC to prevent that
18:21	technomancy	what I meant to say was http://p.hagelb.org/clj-monkey.html
18:22	technomancy	scottj: that's how to use clj-stacktrace
18:32	sleepynate	technomancy: the most powerful irc client in the world. if only it could edit text ;)
18:35	scottj	technomancy: well you're lucky that works for you. sure isn't working on compojure stack traces for me
18:37	technomancy	scottj: oh, I missed the compojure part. I only use it for slime.
20:05	auser	hola
20:05	auser	any hints on where to start if I want to write a parser in clojure?
20:05	auser	or a web scraper, really
20:10	hiredman	htmlunit is nice
20:11	hiredman	well
20:11	auser	oh yeah?
20:11	hiredman	for scraping you need tagsoup + clojure.xml + tree-seq
20:11	hiredman	htmlunit is more for automation
20:11	auser	I guess I need to really understand clojure at a deeper level first, i'm following tutorials and it's still going over my head, at least for now
20:11	auser	tagsoup, you say
20:11	hiredman	yes
20:12	auser	cool
20:12	Raynes	For parsers, there is fnparse and another Clojure-based parser that I can't remember the name of.
20:12	auser	any hints on a good tutorial for someone coming from ruby/erlang?
20:12	auser	heh
20:12	Raynes	There is also Brian Carper's ANTLR in Clojure tutorial.
20:12	auser	just in general
20:12	hiredman	Raynes: he doesn't really want a "parser"
20:12	auser	I've seen some templating
20:13	auser	well... eventually I want to parse the scraped material
20:13	auser	of course
20:13	hiredman	he's not writing an html parser
20:13	Raynes	hiredman: He might eventually. Now he knows about parsers.
20:13	auser	he appreciates the discussion
20:13	hiredman	http://github.com/nathell/clj-tagsoup might be what you want
20:14	auser	lemme look
20:14	auser	ah that's nice
20:14	hiredman	no
20:14	hiredman	no one wants to parse html
20:14	hiredman	EVER
20:16	hiredman	when people say "I want to parse html" they mean "I want a library to parse html and make it less dirty"
20:16	hiredman	which is why tagsoup exists
20:16	auser	you're right, I want to parse html in a semantic way, I don't want to do the parsing myself
20:17	hiredman	right, anything with tagsoup in it will do you well
20:17	hiredman	chouser has an example somewhere of using tagsoup + clojure.xml/parse which is what I have used in the past
20:17	auser	now I just have to figure out how to use it
20:17	Raynes	I didn't actually know about tagsoup.
20:20	auser	man, in comparison, clojure runs super slow in development (because of the JVM, I'm assuming) to erlang, even though both are compiled languages
20:21	hiredman	huh?
20:21	hiredman	how do you figure?
20:22	auser	well, it's not a fair statement to make considering I don't know clojure that well yet
20:22	auser	so I probably should hold off on saying that
20:22	Raynes	What do you mean by "super slow in development"?
20:22	Raynes	You aren't talking about start-up time, right? That's a whole different beast entirely.
20:23	auser	brb, work calls
20:23	auser	I'm talking about compiling
20:23	hiredman	why are you compiling?
20:23	Raynes	You shouldn't be compiling.
20:23	danlarkin	something something compiling
20:24	Raynes	Unless you need certain Java interop features that require AOT, there are rarely reasons to compile to Java bytecode. Especially during development.
20:24	Raynes	Well, to class files.
20:26	auser	I don't need to compile?
20:26	auser	okay
20:26	auser	hm
20:26	auser	maybe I am misunderstanding then
20:27	auser	I guess I'm trying to use tagsoup
20:27	auser	how do I use the method "parse")
20:27	auser	erp, no ')'
20:28	hiredman	the method?
20:28	auser	in tagsoup
20:28	hiredman	on what class?
20:28	auser	I'm just looking at this: http://github.com/nathell/clj-tagsoup
20:33	Raynes	auser: Are you using Leiningen for this project?
20:33	Raynes	http://github.com/technomancy/leiningen
20:34	auser	I am yes
20:34	auser	well, trying to
20:37	Raynes	If you have a Leiningen project set up, you'll want to add [clj-tagsoup "0.1.2"] to your :depedencies in your project.clj.
20:37	Raynes	And then, you'll want to run "lein deps" to pull it down.
20:38	Raynes	The jar will be on the classpath if you run "lein repl" or swank or whatever, so you should be able to use or require the namespace with the parse function and use it.
20:42	seangrove	Hey all, I'm having a bit of a tough time understanding the recur example
20:42	seangrove	http://clojure.org/special_forms#Special Forms--(loop [bindings* ] exprs*)
20:43	seangrove	Ah, nevermind
20:43	seangrove	Haha, got it now
20:43	seangrove	Thanks for being my rubber ducky, #clojure
20:44	notsonerdysunny	is there a way to pipe the command line output for further processing .. ?
20:45	Raynes	seancorfield: Quack.
20:45	notsonerdysunny	If let us say (dir ns) returned a list of member funcs I could map doc on each element of the list ....
20:45	notsonerdysunny	but unfortunately (dir ns ) just prints it to the prompt instead of say returning a list .. does anybody have a suggestion?
20:46	notsonerdysunny	ideally I would like to do something like ... (for [i (dir clojure.zip)] (doc i)
20:46	notsonerdysunny	,(for [i (dir clojure.zip)] (doc i))
20:46	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: dir in this context
20:47	seangrove	,(cons '(3 7) '(10))
20:47	clojurebot	((3 7) 10)
20:47	seangrove	How do I get that to be (3 7 10) ?
20:47	seangrove	(cons '(3 7) 10)
20:48	seangrove	,(cons '(3 7) 10)
20:48	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
20:48	seangrove	Not like that :P
20:51	seangrove	,(flatten (cons '(3 7) 10))
20:51	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: java.lang.Integer
20:51	seangrove	,(flatten (cons '(3 7) '(10)))
20:51	clojurebot	(3 7 10)
20:51	seangrove	That seems wasteful...
20:51	hiredman	no
20:51	hiredman	read the docstring for cron
20:52	hiredman	sorry
20:52	hiredman	cons
20:52	seangrove	Thought that might be it :)
20:52	Raynes	Aw.
20:52	Raynes	And here I was looking for the cron function. :(
20:53	hiredman	wikipedia may even have an entry on cons
20:53	hiredman	~goolge Cons
20:54	seangrove	Oh, I went through all this in beginning cs a few years ago, just don't remember it off the top of my head
20:54	clojurebot	Pardon?
20:54	Raynes	$wikipedia cons
20:54	hiredman	~google Cons
20:54	clojurebot	First, out of 2590000 results is:
20:54	clojurebot	Converse Skateboarding \| CONS Fall 09 Skateboarding Shoes ...
20:54	clojurebot	http://www.converseskateboarding.com/cons_product.html
20:54	hiredman	huh
20:54	Raynes	$wiki cons
20:54	sexpbot	First out of 9930 results is: cons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
20:54	sexpbot	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cons
20:54	Raynes	If you had attached site:en.wikipedia.org to it, it would have been right.
20:55	seangrove	doh
20:55	seangrove	,(cons 10 '(3 7))
20:55	clojurebot	(10 3 7)
20:56	seangrove	Yes, makes sense..
20:56	Raynes	-> (concat '(3 7) '(10))
20:56	sexpbot	=> (3 7 10)
20:56	chouser	,(class (cons 10 '(3 7)))
20:56	clojurebot	clojure.lang.Cons
20:56	chouser	,(counted? (cons 10 '(3 7)))
20:56	clojurebot	false
20:56	Raynes	chouser: Hai there.
20:57	chouser	,(counted? (conj 10 '(3 7)))
20:57	clojurebot	java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IPersistentCollection
20:57	chouser	,(counted? (conj '(3 7) 10))
20:57	clojurebot	true
20:57	chouser	Raynes: hi
20:58	Raynes	I was just thinking about you. Well, I was actually thinking about geniuses in general.
20:59	notsonerdysunny	is there a way to pipe the printed output for further processing .. ?
20:59	notsonerdysunny	If let us say (dir ns) returned a list of member funcs I could map doc on each element of the list ....
20:59	notsonerdysunny	ideally I would like to do something like ... (for [i (dir clojure.zip)] (doc i)
20:59	notsonerdysunny	but unfortunately (dir ns ) just prints it to the prompt instead of say returning a list .. does anybody have a suggestion?
20:59	notsonerdysunny	,(for [i (dir clojure.zip)] (doc i))
20:59	clojurebot	java.lang.Exception: Unable to resolve symbol: dir in this context
21:00	notsonerdysunny	ofcourse dir is not available in the general namespace .. but it does exist in the repl..
21:01	notsonerdysunny	,(doc counted?)
21:01	clojurebot	"([coll]); Returns true if coll implements count in constant time"
21:03	chouser	Raynes: haha
21:04	seangrove	Alright, so I'm wondering about lazy sequences and next
21:04	seangrove	if I define: (def random-stream (repeatedly #(rand-int 10)))
21:05	seangrove	How can I get the next item of random-stream repeatedly?
21:05	seangrove	(println (next random-stream)) just keeps going forever...
21:06	chouser	notsonerdysunny: use (source dir) to see that it uses dir-fn
21:07	chouser	,(count (clojure.repl/dir-fn 'user))
21:07	clojurebot	0
21:07	chouser	,(count (clojure.repl/dir-fn 'clojure.core))
21:08	clojurebot	546
21:08	chouser	(doseq [s (clojure.repl/dir-fn 'user)] (print-doc (resolve s)))
21:09	clojurebot	is not infinity +1!
21:09	chouser	notsonerdysunny: something like that
21:09	chouser	seangrove: you want (second random-stream) ?
21:09	chouser	seangrove: next and rest return everything after first.
21:09	seangrove	Ah, they're synonyms?
21:09	chouser	not quite
21:10	chouser	but closely related
21:10	Raynes	-> (next [])
21:10	sexpbot	=> nil
21:10	Raynes	-> (rest [])
21:10	sexpbot	=> ()
21:10	seangrove	Ah, great
21:10	seangrove	So that lazy-seq will go on forever, so next will continually return
21:11	chouser	right, on a lazy seq, rest and next act the same
21:11	chouser	well
21:11	chouser	that's still not quite right.
21:12	chouser	next has to look one step further ahead to see if the seq is done, compared to rest.
21:13	seangrove	Thank you, good to know
21:14	seangrove	And it seems like random-stream always remembers what's in position 1, position 2, etc.
21:14	seangrove	Does that mean it's holding it all in memory for each take-nth ?
21:15	chouser	seangrove: yes, lazy seqs cache their values.
21:15	seangrove	great
21:20	Raynes	chouser: Do you ever post on the mailing list?
21:22	chouser	Raynes: yeah, why?
21:22	thunk	,(cons 'foo 'bar)
21:22	clojurebot	java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Don't know how to create ISeq from: clojure.lang.Symbol
21:22	Raynes	Just curious. I'm not sure I've seen any of your posts in a while.
21:22	Raynes	But, I don't follow the mailing list much anyway.
21:23	thunk	Clojure doesn't allow non-seq values in the rest cell of a cons, right?
21:23	technomancy	thunk: right, no "improper" lists
21:23	thunk	technomancy: Thanks
21:23	technomancy	basically: you don't need alists since there are non-half-assed associative data types
21:24	technomancy	(can you tell I'm biased?)
21:24	Raynes	alists are fun
21:24	technomancy	well calling seq on a map basically gets you an alist
21:24	technomancy	if you're into that sort of thing
21:25	thunk	It'll take a little mental reorganization, but I think I'll come to like it quite a bit.
21:25	chouser	Raynes: there was a time I read every message, but that was several thousand messages ago.
21:25	Raynes	Hehe.
21:26	technomancy	nothing kills your enthusiasm for elisp like getting used to a rich set of persistent data structures with convenient literals.
21:26	chouser	thunk: cons requires and rest promises to return an ISeq
21:26	technomancy	lisp-2-ness aside
21:26	Raynes	chouser: If you get a couple of minutes, check this out and tell me what you think: http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/browse_thread/thread/4a2243a1453499a1#
21:26	thunk	chouser: Aha. That must be why:
21:26	thunk	(first nil)
21:26	thunk	,(first nil)
21:26	clojurebot	nil
21:26	thunk	,(rest nil)
21:26	clojurebot	()
21:27	Raynes	technomancy: I've yet to be able to bring myself to use elisp for anything.
21:27	Raynes	Other people are really good at doing it for me.
21:27	technomancy	Raynes: the key is to learn it before learning clojure.
21:27	Raynes	Too late.
21:28	thunk	Raynes: Elisp is great. It's the lisp that doesn't take itself seriously.
21:28	technomancy	well then the key is to write a clojure-to-elisp compiler.
21:28	technomancy	thunk: I like that. it could work, as a tag line.
21:29	technomancy	the Brendan Fraser of lisp dialects.
21:29	thunk	"Elisp: srsly?"
21:30	chouser	Raynes: there.
21:30	technomancy	or maybe jim carrey
21:31	thunk	Brendan Fraser's a good analog.
21:32	thunk	Jim Carrey can actually be ... really good.
21:33	s450r1	He was an excellent Count Olaf.
21:33	thunk	Yes, he was.
21:34	Raynes	technomancy: Don't be dissing Jim.
21:35	technomancy	early Jim Carrey?
21:35	notsonerdysunny	chouser: thanks .. that helps .. I was away from my comp for a while ..
21:36	Raynes	chouser: Thanks for your input. I'll play with the profilers later tonight.
21:37	technomancy	for the record, if you are in Seattle and not headed to Seajure RIGHT NOW, you are missing out.
21:38	technomancy	unless you live right next door, in which case you can just walk over a few minutes before 7.
21:39	s450r1	hmmm, how did Seajure make it past leiningen?
21:48	technomancy	s450r1: it's been around since mid-January. grandfathered in. =)
21:48	technomancy	plus it's bad-on-purpose, which gets a pass for irony's sake.
21:51	bortreb	what's the best way to do vector math in clojure
21:51	bortreb	preferbly using actual clojure vectors of vector-ofs or something nice
21:51	bortreb	I want to do (- [2 2 2] [1 2 3]) etc
21:52	qbg	Cantor?
21:52	qbg	http://github.com/ztellman/cantor
21:54	bortreb	excellent.
21:54	bortreb	thank you very much qbg
22:27	thunk	If I search for "swank" on clojars, swank-clojure is a result. But if I search for "swank-clojure" is doesn't come up. Is there something I'm missing, or is this a bug?
22:50	ihodes	i came here to vent for a moment.
22:51	ihodes	i wrote the Game of Life, for funsies, using a sparse array and cool stuff in about 20 minutes or less, about 30 lines of code and all sorts of fun functional awesomeness.
22:52	ihodes	but then i start up a new buffer, in the ns gol.gui. that's when things got bad. the mindset you get into writing functional code != the mindset you need when dealing with swing. it's like going from zen meditation to running zig-zags through a minefield while singing Amazing Grace backwards. it's awful.
23:05	technomancy	thunk: clojars search is not so hot
23:06	technomancy	definitely needs work
23:06	technomancy	thunk: that would actually be a great place to send patches, if you're looking for projects
23:06	thunk	technomancy: Excellent. I'll take a look.
23:07	technomancy	thunk: hop on the clojars-maintainers mailing list; be sure if you do some hacking you build on kotarak's work
23:08	thunk	technomancy: Ok, will do
23:08	technomancy	problem with clojars is the maintainer is rather unresponsive =\
23:10	thunk	Hrm. Maybe I'll make myself annoying :)
23:12	technomancy	it's a valid strategy
23:12	ihodes	technomancy: any news re: new clojars server?
23:12	ihodes	nothing new on the mailing list.
23:12	technomancy	ihodes: nothing. =(
23:26	ihodes	technomancy: sadface :( i may not have time to get acquainted with everything once the term begins
23:40	Raynes	chouser: Indeed. Class count is rising every time.